The Star Wars franchise has long seemed to have exhausted itself with endless sequels and prequels offering variations of the same old stories. That’s why the new Disney+ program, Andor, has come as a surprise to many viewers. In tone and story, it’s very different than the Star Wars norm, offering a much grittier story about imperial oppression, police violence, and the emergence of a revolutionary movement.

To talk about Andor, I sat with critic Sean T. Collins, who has been writing about the show for Decider. A respected TV critic, Sean also podcasts about TV and books, especially Game of Thrones–related narratives, at The Boiled Leather Audio Hour.

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