The Rule of Law versus The Rule of Cheney

In the moment of executive excess, when abuses of the powers of the presidency and -- thanks to Dick Cheney's contributions to the crisis -- the vice presidency are so threatening to the Republic, it is important to remember that this is not a new fight. Cheney was the prime defender of the "right" of the executive branch to disregard Congress and the Constitution during the Iran-Contra scandal of the late 1980s, contributing a chilling dissent to the bipartisan Congressional report that accused the Reagan administration of "secrecy, deception and disdain for the law."

In that dissent, the man who then represented Wyoming in the House chastised Congress for "abusing its power" by seeking to limit the ability of the president and his aides to spend money as they chose in support of the Nicaraguan Contras. "Congress must recognize that effective foreign policy requires, and the Constitution mandates, the President to be the country's foreign policy leader," argued Cheney, it what remains one of history's most dramatic misreads of the Constitutional mandates with regard to the Constitutional system of checks and balances.

This messianic faith that the executive branch is above the law, which Cheney first spelled out as a member of Congress, has only hardened during his tenure as the most powerful vice president in history. Now, with the war in Iraq fully degenerated into quagmire and with the "war on terror" being used as an excuse for everything from warrantless wiretapping to extension of the Patriot Act, the Cheney doctrine infects the body politic as a cancer so widespread that is raises honest concern about the health and future of the American experiment.

It is important to recall, however, that the dangers inherent in Cheney's views were diagnosed almost two decades ago, in the aftermath of the Iran-Contra debacle.

Historian Theodore Draper, who has died at age 93, penned a brilliant assessment of the specific scandal and the broader concern, A Very Thin Line: The Iran-Contra Affairs (Hill & Wang: 1991) which used congressional testimony and private depositions to explain the controversy that erupted after it was revealed that the Reagan administration had set up an entirely illegal scheme to sell arms to Iranian fundmentalists in order to raise money that funded Contra terrorism against the Nicaraguan government and people. The title of the book refers to what Draper saw as "a very thin line (separating) the legitimate from the illegitimate exercise of power in our government."

To Draper's view, the Iran-Contra scandal was "symptomatic of a far deeper disorder in the American body politic" -- a malady characterized by the misguided view that the United States can or should disregard the system of checks and balances in order to create "a president almighty in foreign policy."

Draper warned us well about that "deeper disorder. Unfortunately, his was a warning unheeded. Now, as we struggle with its deadly ramifications, we would do well to return to Draper's text -- not merely to honor a visionary historian who saw both the past and the future, but to arm ourselves for the fight over whether this country will be governed by the rule of law or the rule of Cheney.

John Nichols's book The Rise and Rise of Richard B. Cheney: Unlocking the Mysteries of the Most Powerful Vice President in American History (The New Press) is available nationwide at independent bookstores and at www.amazon.com. Publisher's Weekly describes it as "a Fahrenheit 9/11 for Cheney" and Esquire magazine says it "reveals the inner Cheney."

Comments (178)

1. The Administration broke the Law by not having the port deal go to a 45 day national security review.

   The President has already distanced himself from the decision by saying he did not "personally" know about the deal.

   Libby can't take the rap for future pardoning on this one so who's low man on the totem pole now?

   Posted by freedomplease at 02/22/2006 @ 3:18pm

2. It wasn't enough for Cheney and his lunatic partners to have retired after terrorizing Latin America during the 1980s: supplying the guns and bullets necessary to murder such "terrorists" as Catholic clergy, teachers, students, farmers--anyone with the audacity to defy Washington and seek self-rule from vicious death-squad run governments. Disregarding international law back then (ignored the World Court ruling against them regarding Nicaragua), doing the same today. These thugs have resurfaced to form the most dangerous administration in U.S. history. Their arrogant military posturing has only increased the threat of terror and nuclear proliferation around the globe. No other nation will ever face the U.S. militarily, so the only recourse for them to defend themselves will be terror or to develop nuclear weapon capabilities. As Iran and Korea have discovered once Bush came on the scene calling them "evil" and threatening violence and military-enforced regime change.

   By the way, all of you apologists for Cheney, Reagan and Bush-- those of you who voted for and continue to defend them--you have the blood of the many tens of thousands killed by their policies on your hands. You macho assholes are all guilty for the deaths sustained in these conflicts.

   Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 3:35pm

3. Mr. Nichols, I apologize for using profanity on your blog, but these conservative posters (not all, but many) make me sick.

   Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 3:39pm

4. Oustbush,

   Just go hug another commie and maybe you'll feel better. If people like you had a role in defending our country, we would already be eating with chopsticks.

   Posted by love liberty at 02/22/2006 @ 5:19pm

5. Just go hug another commie and maybe you'll feel better. If people like you had a role in defending our country, we would already be eating with chopsticks.

   Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 02/22/2006 @ 5:19pm |

   We're off to a good start.

   Posted by skeletonman at 02/22/2006 @ 5:35pm

6. Rio

   Pro-choice is not equivalent to pro-abortion. It is "pro-options"...which I am sure you'll disagree with. Here's a thought...don't want an abortion? Don't have one!

   btw: How many adopted children have you saved?

   Your "demonizing" is a repugnant testament to your core hate-mongering. As to the "chopsticks" metaphor...doubtful. but with our Doofmander-in-Thief, we might all be cleaning up camel-shit in a few more years. Maybe you'll get lucky and the ruling Arab elite at that point will make you a harem eunuch!

   Posted by leftofcenter at 02/22/2006 @ 6:09pm

7. Rio Bravo - Wait! Only the christian aborted babies have souls, right? The other aborted babies were going to hell anyway.

   Posted by Fishbite at 02/22/2006 @ 6:11pm

8. And that (if even remotely true) would be worse than the 100s of millions of souls of murdered babies purposely ABORTED by pro-abortion liberals, socialists, communists, and demoncrats how? Their blood is on YOUR HANDS by your support or silence!!!!!

   Posted by RIO BRAVO 02/22/2006 @ 5:43pm

   Removing an unsouled fetus from the woman of the mother doesn't constitute "Blood on Hands" any more than removing the actual womb does.

   But please keep frothing. Bubbles can be fun.

   Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 6:18pm

9. correction... womb of the mother

   Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 6:19pm

10. The BC BS regime could care less about the law, it's all about making money and it doesn't matter off of whose back as long as it's not theirs or that of their buddies. It's the haves and the have nots-- not democracy -vs- terrorism. They don't care about democracy, if it doesn't make money it doesn't count. Don't take it personally-- it's business. The BC BS regime trusts rich oligarchies more than the average USA citizenry. Just look at our debt, enormous tax breaks for the richest, biggest profits for the oil and war industry, another 9/11-- sure why not-- more profit, even less civil rights, haves have more control... The BC BS regime throw a gay stick and the little GOP pups run after it like good little trained pets while the BC BS regime turn around and conceal their money making schemes, do evil secret deeds. Ok pets come fetch; do your master's bidding, obfuscate, distract, bring up Clinton.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 6:23pm

11. BUSHFOOLS

    That is the funniest thing you have said, yet. It just struck me that way

    Posted by CPT at 02/22/2006 @ 6:26pm

12. Oh yeah I forgot about the abortion stick. But then there's the porn stick, a terror stick too. Just got a pile of sticks here. Go fetch, pick it up and run around for a while. Have fun pets.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 6:28pm

13. Well said oustbush. This ignorants that vote for this administration still think communist eat little children and so on. Latin America was an example how democraticly elected governments were thrown by CIA conspiracies, see, Brazil, Chile, Argentina (just because they were trying to do what Chavez is doing in Venezuela). Plus the interference of World Bank making path for foreing corporations, mainly American, to exploit other countriens natural resources in exchange for loans that will never be paid. Let's take the example of President Chavez and look after our own and help others, in other words spread the wealth in benefit of the poor. Let's end hunger and disease. Let's provide education and health care, etc... No more wars, no more interfering with other countries government choices. By the way the security of our ports delivered to a Dubai company is just another excuse for terrorism attacks and of course another war. Those pro-life should read Jimmy Carter's latest book about America's moral values.

    Posted by endofwars at 02/22/2006 @ 6:44pm

14. Sorry about the typing mistakes. I was excited writing this note. Corrections Read:these ignorants and democratically elected

    Posted by endofwars at 02/22/2006 @ 6:50pm

15. Ok pets come fetch; do your master's bidding, obfuscate, distract, bring up Clinton.

    Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/22/2006 @ 6:23pm | ignore this person

    yeah - u know he got fellated in the whitehouse by an attractice rubinesque young jewish intern!!!!!!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/22/2006 @ 6:54pm

16. sticks...

    something for the hamsters to sink their teeth in.

    (after all, the wheel does get old)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 6:56pm

17. That is the funniest thing you have said, yet. It just struck me that way

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 6:26pm | ignore this person

    So you got hit on the head by one of those sticks?

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 6:57pm

18. ENDOWARS

    Lets all gather around the campfire; make our swords into ploughshares and sing KUMBAYA!

    If we are attacked, ie Pearl Harbor and 911, we should turn the other cheek.

    Lets all bury our heads in the sand, they will stop attacking us when we leave them alone.

    Lets give back all our wealth to the poor so that they can use it wisely to purchase tattoos, lapdances, porn, stero equipment, High-Def TVs and other necessities of life.

    Posted by CPT at 02/22/2006 @ 7:02pm

19. BUSHFOOLS

    Tell me again how everything is a consipracy for big corporations!

    Please

    Posted by CPT at 02/22/2006 @ 7:03pm

20. BUSHFOOLS

    Pretty please?

    Posted by CPT at 02/22/2006 @ 7:07pm

21. and sing KUMBAYA!

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:02pm

    Why wouldn't we want to sing "Come by here my Lord, come by here"?

    Do you have something you're trying to hide CPT?

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 7:09pm

22. Sorry, getting back to the making money theme. Has anyone seen a 'money tree', like a family tree, connecting all of the corporate interests this admination has? They're almost the exactly same as their family(s) tree(s). However, in this case, because of all the numerous connections, one could say-- you couldn't see the forest for the BUSHES...

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 7:10pm

23. Pretty please?

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:07pm

    Google Results 1 - 10 of about 7,730,000 for Bush Cheney corporate interests. (0.17 seconds)

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 7:16pm

24. Do you really want a Rese-sification on this overly obvious and researched there for blind in brail reams of information on the BC BS corporate influence and profits? Now who is it that's sticking their head in the sand? Lets also not forget the all the free stuff Reagan got donated as gifts after he left office. One wonders how much free stuff Bush gets after office? Oops I forgot he's not leaving.... Ha, here goes the conspiracy stick-- go fetch...

    Conspiracy stick -- blends in with the surroundings, hard to see

    Abortion stick --- red and bloody

    Gay stick -- well you know what that looks like

    Porn stick -- bigger

    Clinton stick --- looks like a cigar

    Etc.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 7:32pm

25. stick with the truth --- huh?

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 7:33pm

26. :)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 7:33pm

27. Sorry, getting back to the making money theme. Has anyone seen a 'money tree', like a family tree, connecting all of the corporate interests this admination has? They're almost the exactly same as their family(s) tree(s). However, in this case, because of all the numerous connections, one could say-- you couldn't see the forest for the BUSHES...

    Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/22/2006 @ 7:10pm | ignore this person

    Pretty please?

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:07pm

    Google Results 1 - 10 of about 7,730,000 for Bush Cheney corporate interests. (0.17 seconds)

    Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/22/2006 @ 7:16pm

    Bushfools,

    How dare George Bush and Dick Cheney actually know and maybe even like business people and businesses! Don't they know that true Americans hate business and especially CEOs (hiss, hiss).

    These evil businesses are guilty of providing goods and services to Americans and people all over the world for profit (more hissing).

    These evil businesses are also guilty of providing jobs (oh, more hissing).

    Yes, Bush and Cheney should be strung up for daring to be friends with the greatest evil today, business (hiss, hiss).

    Tell me Bushfools, do you have a job? How do you support yourself? Did you grow, harvest, butcher all of your food this week? do you drive a car, take a bus or train? Do you wear clothes?

    I hear businesses provide all of those things without holding a gun to people's heads.

    Posted by love liberty at 02/22/2006 @ 7:36pm

28. Lets give back all our wealth to the poor so that they can use it wisely to purchase tattoos, lapdances, porn, stero equipment, High-Def TVs and other necessities of life.

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:02pm

    Twice I've lived in a 'military town'. And 'by the base', is where you went for tattoos, porn and overpriced electronics electronics, on credit* (*With valid military ID).

    Never got a lap dance there, though, so I couldn't say.

    ;(

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 7:37pm

29. If we are attacked, ie Pearl Harbor and 911, we should turn the other cheek. [...] Lets all bury our heads in the sand, they will stop attacking us when we leave them alone.

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:02pm

    It would help if people in the United States - the self-proclaimed leader of the world - would understand a little bit about the rest of the world. But most Americans, I'm sad to say, don't know shit. You still think all those Muslims hate America because it's such a free society? Hell, in Beirut even the stock brokers - those most capitalist of capitalists - were cheering on 9/11. Most Arabs have nothing against the American way of life - they resent the US for purely political reasons. As a friend of mine in Seattle wrote to me a few days after 9/11: "What happened in New York and Washington wasn't instigation - it was retaliation."

    No, you shouldn't turn the other cheek when attacked. What you should do is go after the people who attacked you. And no, those people aren't in Iraq and no, they don't have weapons of mass distruction with which to attack you either. Meanwhile, where's Osama...?

    Posted by Amsterdam69 at 02/22/2006 @ 7:42pm

30. Zero, Allende was overthrown during the NIXON administration, and Kissinger was the perp.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/22/2006 @ 7:43pm

31. "How dare George Bush and Dick Cheney actually know and maybe even like business people and businesses!"

    Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 02/22/2006 @ 7:36pm

    I know lots of 'business men'. Depending on how you define that, I may even be one.

    I like alot of business. (Especially mine.) Those are the folks I do business with.

    I wouldn't define either of those, as "business interests". Aside from my vendors, (The more smaller ones there are, the better the price and service), who I depend on to make money, I have no vested "interest" in any of their financials.

    I think you're talking around this point. Not to it.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 7:44pm

32. I've yet to see any of the businesses where CPT alleges the working poor spend their money-tatoo places, strip joints, electronics stores, etc, turn any of that cash aside. They certainly don't mind providing any of those services to G.I.s either. But of course, the capitalist shit head, ever full of self righteous holy roller morality, imagines himself superior because he only enriches himself off of such services. Never mind the numerous times the military has made use of such services during its many overseas entanglements. Leave it to corporate pimps to imagine themselves superior to the ones that work outside the law.

    Posted by Legba at 02/22/2006 @ 7:47pm

33. I hear businesses provide all of those things without holding a gun to people's heads.

    Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 02/22/2006 @ 7:36pm

    there's a guy at the top of the interstate exit ramp holding a little brown cardboard sign that will dispute that point.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 7:52pm

34. Will,

    What are you suggesting, that some business held a gun to his head, made his spend everything on their product/service and therefore he now stands on an exit ramp begging?

    That story should be on every major network if it's true; but then we have a hunch that there may be more to the story?

    Posted by love liberty at 02/22/2006 @ 7:56pm

35. ENDOWARS

    Lets all gather around the campfire; make our swords into ploughshares and sing KUMBAYA!

    If we are attacked, ie Pearl Harbor and 911, we should turn the other cheek.

    Lets all bury our heads in the sand, they will stop attacking us when we leave them alone.

    Lets give back all our wealth to the poor so that they can use it wisely to purchase tattoos, lapdances, porn, stero equipment, High-Def TVs and other necessities of life.

    Posted by CPT 02/22/2006 @ 7:02pm | ignore this person

    nah - lets let the terrorists who actually plotted and inspired the 9/11 attacks escape into the borderlands of the country that harbored them and spend buzzillions of dollars, throw thousands of our best and brightest (including yourself) into the meatgrinder by invading a country that never attacked us, and as those incompetants at the un said, had no wmd...gee, if we had spent those buzillions we have flung into the black hole of baghdad into afghanistan, and deployed those hundreds of thousands of well trained, equiped, high morale volunteers to root out the people who ACTUALL REALLY ATTACKED US and provide security in post occupation afghanistan (oh crap i mean "post freedom spreading" or whatever doublespeak will not bring forth charges of treasonous glee in our failures), well, (insert rosier imagined current situation of your own).

    your ridiculing of bushfools for his corporanoia is not entirely incorrect - many good and decent corporations exist, but if you cannot see the immense profiteering going on on the part of oh sooo many involved in this bloody iraq distraction, please open your eyes. they are some truly ingenious evil morons...dry up non military social programs (ALL of which are so OBVIOUSLY inneffective and stupid), thereby making the military the only public option for poor and disadvantaged youth to better themselves, plop us into the neverending black hole of baghdad, then use buzilions of $$$$ of public taxpayer funds to enrich neocons who are heavily invested in the very defense/petrol industries who are having the military outsourced to...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/22/2006 @ 7:57pm

36. What are you suggesting, that some business held a gun to his head, made his spend everything on their product/service and therefore he now stands on an exit ramp begging?

    Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 02/22/2006 @ 7:56pm

    No, I'm suggsesting he had a job until some business owner held a gun to his head and said leave. He had a house until some bank held a gun to his head and said leave. And, he used to live somewhere else in America until some "evangelic" pro bussiness community(one you would feel comfortable in) got their town council to pass a law which then allowed the police to put a gun to his head and say... leave.

    And because of all that gun play that you say doesn't exist, now I get to slip him a fiver hoping against hope that he doesn't use it for tattoos, lapdances, porn, stero equipment, High-Def TVs and other necessities of life.

    (because in Seattle we don't tell Americans who are down on their luck to leave)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:07pm

37. In March 1977, after the United States administration of President Jimmy Carter criticized El Salvador for human rights violations, the country rejected further United States military aid.

    After reformist military officers overthrew the Romero regime in October 1979, the Carter administration, eager to improve contacts with the military, allocated to El Salvador a small amount of training funds and US$5.7 million in "nonlethal" foreign military sales (FMS) in FY 1980. Renewed United States military assistance began in November 1979 with the arrival of a six-man Mobile Training Team (MTT) to provide riot-control training. The Carter administration had hoped to use military aid to persuade the army to curb its human rights abuses, make basic reforms, and allow civilian rule. The murders of four churchwomen from the United States in December 1980, however, provoked the Carter White House into suspending US$5 million in military aid.

    It was Reagan who supported the death squads, Zero. now you know

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/22/2006 @ 8:28pm

38. Down on his luck? You make it sound temporary.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:31pm

    Mary Mary

    My favorite bullshit dude. I hope being homeless is not permanant. But with you conservative boys treating people like numbers in a spread sheet...

    It just might be.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:35pm

39. I'm walking the walk

    in a world run by men who talk the talk

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:35pm

40. What the hell does that mean? I'm not supposed to feel superior to criminals?

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 7:55pm

    Read the sentence right before your 'cut', for context.

    And he said criminals who lobby for exemption, feel superior to average 'street' criminals. No one was talking about you or your superiority complex.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 8:36pm

41. If you can't tell, I don't think added comfort makes a difference.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:36pm

    I'll tell you what Mary, why don't you calculus it for me

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:38pm

42. Will, The hypothetical homeless man; are you making a difference in his life, or are you making him every so slightly more comfortable?

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:34pm

    I just read this bullshit post of yours. Do people really mean so little to you that the homeless guy I'm physically giving the five dollar bill to is "Hypothetical"?

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:40pm

43. If you can't tell, I don't think added comfort makes a difference.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:36pm

    Spoken like somebody who, whether their own fault or not, has never been hungry.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 8:41pm

44. These things are legal. That's what confused me. Only criminals work outside the law. There is no mention of criminal activity.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:41p

    "Only criminals work outside the law." In theory, I agree. But, who is defining what's legal, these days?

    That was the point.

    I doubt you were confused.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 8:46pm

45. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:43pm

    Take your fight to Liberty. That was his terminalogy. But I can see that you are to schtoopid to know the expression put a gun to your head.

    ?but then it isn't all black and white mathmatical

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:49pm

46. too schtoopid

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:51pm

    obviously

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 8:52pm

47. In the preschool blog, MBB laid out his fear, that the government should start helping anyone.

    You shouldn't be so hard on him....We all have our irrational phobias. And a government, responsive to it's citizens needs, is his.

    He has visions;

    "For the rest of my life I will associate the phrase "government benevolence" with the mental image of a dead junkie faced down in the gutter."

    Stop it! Your freaking him out. Imagine seeing that every time someone mentions government helping anyone with My Money(tm).

    So act like you're a selfish, shortsighted..um...republican and give the guy a break.

    Eric

    Posted by malcontent3 at 02/22/2006 @ 8:59pm

48. Now I'm just being silly, and distracting from my point.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/22/2006 @ 8:58pm

    We knew that Mary. You're a silly man who seems to find joy in the misery of others.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:00pm

49. "No, I'm suggsesting he had a job until some business owner held a gun to his head and said leave. He had a house until some bank held a gun to his head and said leave. And, he used to live somewhere else in America until some "evangelic" pro bussiness community(one you would feel comfortable in) got their town council to pass a law which then allowed the police to put a gun to his head and say... leave.

    And because of all that gun play that you say doesn't exist, now I get to slip him a fiver hoping against hope that he doesn't use it for tattoos, lapdances, porn, stero equipment, High-Def TVs and other necessities of life.

    (because in Seattle we don't tell Americans who are down on their luck to leave) "

    Ah, Will, dreamland...How about the guys who drank too much lost their job and as a result lost their home. Many of these people are on the street because of someone thought their rights were being violated in the institutions and that they need to be free to live their life. I have seen the same card board signs in Denver and when the weather got colder, saw the same guys in Las Cruses New Mexico (1 month later). One of our TV afiliates did an investigation and found many pan handlers make more than you do.

    My friend has a company and I have been with him when he has approached some of the unemployeed to "walk the walk" by offering a real job , hope, clothes, a ride to his office if he needs transportation and hands out the business cards with his number on it, as of todays date 138 cards handed out, no takers, none , zilch. We have seen some of these guys numerous times.

    I beleive these guys are disturbed and need to be in an instituion and not on exit ramps. I don't think that many fall into your "suggested" columb. Nor do I think they are frauds as some of the men I described in Denver. You are to quick to "suppose" and blame the business community.

    Were these people on exit ramps before Bush?

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 9:02pm

50. I keep forgetting Maasch, all homeles people are their because they got drunk and fired.

    Outsourcing American jobs to communist China has nothing to do with it.

    even if it was in the form of forcing the people who held those outsourced high paying jobs into low paying jobs that my homeless guy lost because he missed work once due to a hangover.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:06pm

51. Will,

    I see you didn't read my post completely through.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 9:08pm

52. My friend has a company and I have been with him when he has approached some of the unemployeed to "walk the walk" by offering a real job , hope, clothes, a ride to his office if he needs transportation and hands out the business cards with his number on it, as of todays date 138 cards handed out, no takers, none , zilch. We have seen some of these guys numerous times.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:02pm

    The problem is they've probably seen you a few times too

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:10pm

53. I see you didn't read my post completely through.

    Posted by tJOHN MAASCHt 02/22/2006 @ 9:08pm

    I did John and I've heard it all before. People are homeles and it's their own damn fault

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:11pm

54. "The problem is they've probably seen you a few times too"

    Wow,

    No, Will, , not relevant, but hey, keep handing out those fivers and convince your self you are making a difference and feel better blaming the community...

    You are so typical and your responses becoming sterotypical...only blame and pointing out problems, but no attempts at solutions...you are usless there too, as in education reform.

    All feel good worthless actions...intentions are all that matters regardless of the actual effectiveness.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 9:16pm

55. "I did John and I've heard it all before. People are homeles and it's their own damn fault"

    Never said that.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 9:17pm

56. " I'm not supposed to feel superior to criminals?"

    there but for fortune...

    no, you're not, you selfsatified ...

    Posted by johannesrolf at 02/22/2006 @ 9:20pm

57. You are so typical and your responses becoming sterotypical...only blame and pointing out problems, but no attempts at solutions...you are usless there too, as in education reform.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:16pm

    Typical? Most people to get a job have to go through an interview process. But you and your buddy just walk up to guys on the street hand them a business card and say hey, I'll give a job, clothes, ride to work...

    Look at it from the homeless guys point of view. Is this too good to be true offer for real...

    or are you preying on me.

    Shove your "typical" up your ass dipshit.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:22pm

58. Never said that.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:17pm

    you know John, when you and your buddy keep offering them jobs and they keep turning you down...

    Yeah, you did say that

    (the drunk thing does it too)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:24pm

59. You had to be there will, as it was not as you surmise. It is and has been a moving experience.

    Dipshit?. You need to check out a book "USEFUL IDIOTS". It has you all over it..Arrogant and totally useless.

    you never surprise any more..the only person who condems one who actually tries to help in a real way and you find fault...yeah, lets give a fiver. Good job...

    Pleae put me on your ignore list

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 9:32pm

60. In March 1977, after the United States administration of President Jimmy Carter criticized El Salvador for human rights violations, the country rejected further United States military aid.

    After reformist military officers overthrew the Romero regime in October 1979, the Carter administration, eager to improve contacts with the military, allocated to El Salvador a small amount of training funds and US$5.7 million in "nonlethal" foreign military sales (FMS) in FY 1980. Renewed United States military assistance began in November 1979 with the arrival of a six-man Mobile Training Team (MTT) to provide riot-control training. The Carter administration had hoped to use military aid to persuade the army to curb its human rights abuses, make basic reforms, and allow civilian rule. The murders of four churchwomen from the United States in December 1980, however, provoked the Carter White House into suspending US$5 million in military aid.

    It was Reagan who supported the death squads, Zero. now you know

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 02/22/2006 @ 8:28pm |

    Johannesrolf,

    Don't forget among the 70,000 killed, the vast majority done so by government troops, the massacre of El Mozote. This occurred on 11 December 1981, when the Salvadoran army's elite Atlacal Batallion, trained by American military advisors, closed off the mountain village and brutally murdered over 900 men, women, and children (mostly the latter two groups). In a village that was not giving support to the FMLN resistence group, not that it would have justified such sick barbarity . The Reagan administration maintaining consistence, lied and denied it ever happened. They and their conservative media groups (Wall Street editorial board, the conservative media watch organization Accuracy in Media, to name a couple) attacked and attempted to smear and slander the reporter, Raymond Bonner (for the NY Times), who first reported the incident here in the U.S., after observing first-hand some of the charred remains of the victims. The Reagan administration dismissed the reports as "gross exaggerations." The story has been since confirmed, despite the attempts to protect the killers by the Reagnites. Many who are now serving "us" through Bush.

    Oh, and Reagan's people tried to blame the brutal rape and murder of those nuns on the victims: insinuating falsely that they may have tried to run a road block, again, as if that justifies being brutally raped and murdered.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 9:34pm

61. Pleae put me on your ignore list

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:32pm |

    Why would I ignore you John. I rather enjoy your valient if clumsy attempts at reasoned argument.

    and I learn so much about the mind of my domestic enemy through the posts of you and all the other hamsters that post here.

    Why would I ignore you John.

    This is too good to be true

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:37pm

62. Were these people on exit ramps before Bush?

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:02pm | ignore this person

    John, do you see these people when you visit Sweden or Japan? I suppose "lazy" people only live in the U.S.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 9:38pm

63. Tell me Bushfools, do you have a job? How do you support yourself? Did you grow, harvest, butcher all of your food this week? do you drive a car, take a bus or train? Do you wear clothes?

    I hear businesses provide all of those things without holding a gun to people's heads.

    Posted by LOVE LIBERTY 02/22/2006 @ 7:36pm

    (Sorry for the delay--had to drive a couple of hours from my first job, stop by my second job, then by my daughter's dorm to give her money to take out my goddaughter, her sister, before heading home, geezelouise what a life!)

    Funny you should say ‘gun to head' considering last week and this being about Cheney's criminality. But of course you already forgot the guy's name even though he got it twice, some in the face. But all seriousness aside, your logic is circular and meaningless. Like not addressing the facts concerning Whittington getting shot but rather the people that made his clothes, food, boots, even the shells in his gun. And your point is he should've been naked and staving otherwise it's his fault he got shot-- for being successful? That this BC BS regime is lying about just about everything for the profit of a few has little to do with business and a lot about stealing from he poor to give to the rich. Now that's a valid point to most people--that is unless your premise is that your god's wish is to make things worse is a beneficial thing-- you Satan worshiper you. Doing the old hell on earth as it is in hell prayer-thing. Yeah I get it. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 9:38pm

64. BTW,

    the terror stick --- blinks different colors

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 9:43pm

65. ohn, do you see these people when you visit Sweden or Japan? I suppose "lazy" people only live in the U.S.

    Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/22/2006 @ 9:38pm

    I remember an article that I read back in the late eighty's which told about the outcry from the citizens of Tokyo when they found a guy living in a cardbord box somewhere on the edge of town.

    They were deeply embassed by the knowledge but not because the guy dirtied up the view but rather because they feel a deep obligation to their fellow countrymen and got the guy off the streets and into a better situation.

    What a concept

    (and the strange thing was that the guy was trying to hide himself because of the shame of his situation)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 9:46pm

66. do any of you wingers ever look at what a ceo makes here in the us compared to the average workers under them? and then look at what the ceo makes in other countries compared to the average workers under them?

    and as for all these drug addicts, sex addicts and tatoo addicts that steal all the social service money for their immoral behavior, what about the babies? since you all love babies so much, rio--what about the babies? have you noticed where we've climbed to now on the infant mortality list? i think we're at 42 now--that's changed a lot under this misadministration. it(our place on the infant mortality list) is just getting worse and worse. quickly.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/22/2006 @ 9:55pm

67. and maasch, you're right about one thing--a lot of the people on the streets should be in institutions. a lot of them were forced out of institutions thanks to the deinstitutionalization of the republicans--limited government--really got going with reagan.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/22/2006 @ 9:59pm

68. the whole republican abortion argument hasn't changed since carlin talked about it in the 70's--make sure you get born but once you're born, you're fucked.

    Posted by loveloki at 02/22/2006 @ 10:00pm

69. Will,

    You learn nothing..you would make a perfect beaurocrat..I find many of your posts illogical also and for the most part useles, so I guess we are even..you are ignored by me from here on..

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:04pm

70. "The problem is they've probably seen you a few times too"

    Wow,

    No, Will, , not relevant, but hey, keep handing out those fivers and convince your self you are making a difference and feel better blaming the community...

    You are so typical and your responses becoming sterotypical...only blame and pointing out problems, but no attempts at solutions...you are usless there too, as in education reform.

    All feel good worthless actions...intentions are all that matters regardless of the actual effectiveness.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:16pm |

    John,

    Do you know why the American Revolution is not historically considered an extraordinary event (as opposed to the French Revolution) in the relations of governing? Because the same people running the show before the revolution (locally) were the same people in control afterwards. It has taken the Will C's and most of the others here on this site, through popular reform, to improve and expand the opportunites for a decent life in this nation. People who believe in something bigger than themselves. You selfish bastards, with your myopic world-view are always in the way of progress and opportunity for the larger society.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 10:05pm

71. Love,

    I don't actually know who was responsible, but I believe it occured as a result of a lawsuit by some group(aclu, maybe, not sure) and I think it was before Reagan.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:06pm

72. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:04pm

    John Speaks (then takes ball and stomps off home)

    I'm headed off to eat some piping hot chicken fingers myself

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 10:07pm

73. Out,

    "You selfish bastards, with your myopic world-view are always in the way of progress and opportunity for the larger society."

    What you and others here don't seem to understand is that this is exactly how the majority in the country feel and view YOU!!!You are even marginalized in your own party. If you guys were specimens, you would be under glass for studying .....you are the far left deluded into thinking(by yourselves) you are main stream....wander outside once in awhile..look around. Ask around..

    Many of you are viewed as frustrated and unable to "fit in" with the main street of American thought and as kooks, the same way many of us on the libetarian and conservative side view the Pat Robertsons and Faldwells on the right..wacko right.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:14pm

74. Posted by WILL C. 02/22/2006 @ 9:46pm

    One of the great driving forces in Asian societies is shame. (Or, more specifically, the intense desire to avoid it.)

    It would seem to be the only thing we do not import from the Pacific Rim.

    Posted by drhammer at 02/22/2006 @ 10:15pm

75. What a concept

    (and the strange thing was that the guy was trying to hide himself because of the shame of his situation)

    Posted by WILL C. 02/22/2006 @ 9:46pm |

    That also applies to the business world...in Japan the social audience (that essentially what determines unethical behavior) would consider it scandalous for a government official overseeing scientific reports, to revise them so as to alter the content, observe a little media criticsm-- and then resign so he can jump from govt service where people suspect he were only there to circumvent the regulatory process for industry, and then you resign and immediately sign up with Exxon, to confirm it. In Japan that guy would take a knife and carve a z in his stomach, since his professional career would be over.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 10:16pm

76. I find many of your posts illogical also and for the most part useles, so I guess we are even

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:04pm | ignore this person

    so john, u admit most of your posts are illogical and useless? still gonna buy me lunch, aren't?...yuk yuk

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/22/2006 @ 10:21pm

77. Many of you are viewed as frustrated and unable to "fit in" with the main street of American thought and as kooks, the same way many of us on the libetarian and conservative side view the Pat Robertsons and Faldwells on the right..wacko right.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:14pm |

    John,

    Yes, we don't have a seat at the table of concentrated power: those sacred Ayn Rand Captains of Industry crowd...but we are connected to the concerns of the majority: like wanting to reform our twice as expensive but deliverer of shit results health care, living wages, environment, to name a few issues. So bugger off with your radical designaions that don't hold water to reality.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 10:23pm

78. "so john, u admit most of your posts are illogical and useless? "

    To many here, yes,

    And I would be willing to buy you lunch,as unlike Will, I don't have domestic enemies...:)

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:25pm

79. OUT,

    You are a socialist nut case and as such don't hold water out side this post. If you doubt me..go out and try to sell this view to anyone off this site. And talk honestly about what you would do and who you "blame"..you will find we have the best health care system in the world, our problem is cost...you identify problems for you that may not be the same problems identified by the majority, or at least the same definition..I also think the health care system is broken and needs fixing, but I don't see the same problem with it as you do and don't think it delivers shit results..I ahve been saved by the health care system..all the Canandians sitting in American doctors offices and surgical centers in the border states may not agree with you.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:32pm

80. I also don't think we should pay for operations on people who continue to smoke or partake in behavior that is proven to destroy health..I also don't think I am entitld to health care..I maybe entitled to access if it is available but I can't expect you to pay for my care.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:35pm

81. My attitude here may change but for now I have trouble having someone else pay for services I use.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 10:35pm

82. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:32pm |

    John,

    your language is quite humorous ("socialist nutcase"). Sorry, but our healthcare is the most inefficient in the industrialized world. The outcomes are pathetic, unless you consider the World Health Organization "nuts," as well. Our healthcare has huge administrative costs that other systems don't have. The insurance bureaucrats have to ensure people are not spending too much of their money. The paper work is enormous because they are only interested in providing the best covererage to those customers most profitable to the bottom line. You may have exellent coverage, good for you... but not good for the millions who have nada. I'm sure they are comforted by your situation, since you're not a nutcase like myself and are connected to the average American Joe.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 10:48pm

83. And John, I do talk to average Americans. Whenever I have the occasion during my classes, say during a history or social science class (when appropriate or asked my opinion by a professor- which is often), to engage other students about these issues, I do. I do not yet recollect being called a nutcase. It could happen, though. I will let you know.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 10:56pm

84. My attitude here may change but for now I have trouble having someone else pay for services I use.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:35pm |

    My daughters have a hard time of me helping them out too. One actually dehydrated working and going to college, over-worked, got sick, I had to take her to the hospital. It's weird that because I've always had 2-3 jobs they think they should also while in college! I tell them I only had one and it cost a hell of a lot less then, that it's my responsibility to help them out as my parents helped me. And they can help me out when I get really old like their grandparents, greatgrandparents, etc. Although what happens when you don't have parents or they can't work 2-3 jobs or make enough? What if they're helped out by some one else until they're on their feet and then they help you out! Hey, does it matter who really helped you out? Knowing you can help somebody else out when you get on your feet--doesn't that mean everything? Like what if every one did unto others as we'd like other to do unto them! Wow like I just thought of that! Think I can get a patent or something like maybe make some money off of that idea?

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 11:05pm

85. OUT<

    I don't have health care, fyi, and nut case is not personel, I am sorry. I am connected to average American , as I was raised by them , am raising some and I am one myself.

    I just differ in the solutions I favor and in the causes of the problems we suffer.

    I come from a medical family and agree with the paper work, insurance companies as they are one of the bigest problems,except for government intrusion,,..our heath care in the MOST efficient at delivering care, complicated care, where we fall down and fall hard, is in the area of PREVENTIVE medicine. We treat symptoms of existing problems and not CAUSES. We are looking up the wrong end of the health problem...and all the governmewnt programs make it worse..

    what do you think is going to happen when all baby boomers(me) swell the statistical graphs of extended care? Medicaid? Medicare? It is worse than Social security as far as not being viable economically. From your post I surmise you are a student...When you hit the ground in mid life deep in your work and examine you check..you may find yourself at the 70% tax rate to pay for all the "rights or entittlements" being awarded today and yesterday. Bush added more with the drug medicare program.

    Unless you change the revenue system of the government you will have no money for any health in the near future.

    This is why guys like me want to change tax system from income to purchase side. Another thread.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 11:10pm

86. The BC BS regime throw a gay stick and the little GOP pups run after it like good little trained pets while the BC BS regime turn around and conceal their money making schemes, do evil secret deeds. Ok pets come fetch; do your master's bidding, obfuscate, distract, bring up Clinton.

    Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/22/2006 @ 6:23pm | ignore this person

    This is too good to leave laying around on page 1!

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 11:10pm

87. Bushfool,

    Good post..I understand.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 11:12pm

88. Bushfool,

    My father and uncles helped me and my brothers, cousins,ect. We we told that if we didn't have kids we had to help pay for cousins, nephews, ect. Especially if one of us made "good". We do help each other. This was our way of paying back, as our parents didn't want money back, but payback was actually investing in your familys future..kind of an Asian approach to future thinking.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/22/2006 @ 11:17pm

89. Wittington's apology to Cheney? I wasn't suspicious before, but that nailed it for me. It is a disgusting day in this country when party apparatchiks have to take responsibility for the mistakes of their party leaders. Fuck this shit.

    Posted by Legba at 02/22/2006 @ 11:17pm

90. We treat symptoms of existing problems and not CAUSES. We are looking up the wrong end of the health problem...and all the governmewnt programs make it worse..

    Unless you change the revenue system of the government you will have no money for any health in the near future.

    This is why guys like me want to change tax system from income to purchase side. Another thread.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 11:10pm | ignore this person

    John, I am not really insulted, as I enjoy the name calling when it is usually tongue-in-cheek humorous. It's fun, when it doesn't get too ugly, but the only poster I see with that intent is NaCl.

    I think part of the problem is that it makes some people alot of money to treat the symptoms, not the causes. Heck, even widespread pollution is a moneymaker for some in the health industry. The system as you mentioned, is a terrible mess, but I have to say that I still trust the government (when they're doing their jobs and not shilling for industries that bribe them through lobbying) over private industry. The government is more acountable to the people, and this pains me to say such a thing in the midst of the Bush administration. And the economy seemed fine during the 25 years or so following the second world war--with the progressive tax rates of 90% or so, at the top. More equitable, along with tremendous growth.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 11:27pm

91. Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/22/2006 @ 11:27pm | ignore this person

    John, I'm not saying we should raise those rates to that previous high, I was just making the point that all was not in ruin when such percentages did exist. I realize the competitive environment has changed since then.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 11:31pm

92. Bushfool,

    My father and uncles helped me and my brothers, cousins,ect. We we told that if we didn't have kids we had to help pay for cousins, nephews, ect. Especially if one of us made "good". We do help each other. This was our way of paying back, as our parents didn't want money back, but payback was actually investing in your familys future..kind of an Asian approach to future thinking.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 11:17pm |

    John, I obviously respect your family's approach. I just don't think many others promote those kind of old-school values anymore, Unfortunately.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 11:35pm

93. John, I obviously respect your family's approach. I just don't think many others promote those kind of old-school values anymore, Unfortunately.

    Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/22/2006 @ 11:35pm | ignore this person

    Only those left with a soul.

    Posted by Bushfools at 02/22/2006 @ 11:51pm

94. Hey, does it matter who really helped you out? Knowing you can help somebody else out when you get on your feet--doesn't that mean everything? Like what if every one did unto others as we'd like other to do unto them! Wow like I just thought of that! Think I can get a patent or something like maybe make some money off of that idea?

    Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/22/2006 @ 11:05pm |

    Exellent points, though I must admit they appear as foreign to current times as the story posted by Katrina about Harry Truman, who after hearing reports of war profiteering by some businesses, jumped into his old pickup truck and traveled the country making surprise visits to the various plants scattered around the country. Or even John's story about his family helping each other seems disconnected to what happens today.

    Posted by Oustbush at 02/22/2006 @ 11:56pm

95. And I would be willing to buy you lunch,as unlike Will, I don't have domestic enemies...:)

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 10:25pm

    Maasch if your going to ignore me you jhave to stop quoting me too.

    unless like CPT you want to be known as another coward who takes shots at people from behind his ignore list.

    Posted by Will C. at 02/22/2006 @ 11:59pm

96. Will,

    You are not on my ignore list, you are ignored by me. I ask the same of you. the quotes were from earlier posts before I put you on double secret ignore...kind of like Johannes ignore.

    I tend to shoot as straight as I can.......................in the face.

    The only true ignore I have is Rese

    Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 12:05am

97. sorry john

    I'm hungry... if you post

    you're meat

    Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:08am

98. "John, I'm not saying we should raise those rates to that previous high, I was just making the point that all was not in ruin when such percentages did exist. I realize the competitive environment has changed since then."

    I submit that the reduction of those 90% rates help free up more capital to the private market and spurs growth, where government confiscates and burns it up. Lower tax rates is also resposible for helping create more weathy and middle class voters...keep more of your own money is a powerful message and is always heard..especially by those who are earning the money..another thread.

    Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 12:10am

99. the cult of cash

    in your god you do trust

    (to bad he's the root of all evil)

    Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:11am

100. Then post something we can eat. Not little hits ..something we can chew as do most others who visit or live here. You moralize too much and you sound more arrogantly preachy without anything strong to read...or chew.

     Good night.

     Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 12:13am

101. you're doing one shitty job of ignoring me John

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:14am

102. Actually, it is the love of money, not the mechanism or tool of cash..

     Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 12:14am

103. Not after tonite..good nite..

     Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 12:15am

104. dream of balls

     If you takes yours home twice

     You'll have a pair

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:16am

105. Or even John's story about his family helping each other seems disconnected to what happens today.

     Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/22/2006 @ 11:56pm

     We all need to visit with more families and/or individual homes-- it's weird but there are more 'real' people out there than we'd suspect in our own isolated bubbles. One of my daughters once ran away from her mom's home that lives far away and I didn't know where she went. I email lots of police dept. and places I thought she'd had gone, but finally I just started going to all these different places asking for help and it was like a totally different universe-- everybody wanted to help! I finally found her where I least wanted her to be in late August 2001-- NYC. Lots of people helped me find her when I asked for help. After a couple of months I learned all about how runaways network across the USA, live in tribes, squat. I lost 30 pounds too. Funny how it all worked out when I asked for help, police as well as all the tattoo parlors and rave party producers. People deep down wanted to help out, but it needs to be from a place of sincerity and real need. I think most people can still sense it from first hand experience. Definitely learned hope is real.

     Posted by Bushfools at 02/23/2006 @ 12:17am

106. I submit that the reduction of those 90% rates help free up more capital to the private market and spurs growth, where government confiscates and burns it up. Lower tax rates is also resposible for helping create more weathy and middle class voters...keep more of your own money is a powerful message and is always heard..especially by those who are earning the money..another thread.

     Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/23/2006 @ 12:10am | ignore this person

     John, you're right...another post is probably best. But, before I hit the old hay, much of the dinero that was free to be invested in the market was also burned up in the market...as we tend to overspeculate and can never seem to get rid of those "few bad apples" who continually scheme ways in robbing the system: Enron, WorldCom, Citibank, Tyco, etc. This was post Savings and Loan era.

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:20am

107. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/22/2006 @ 9:02pm | ignore this person

     really? your friend did that? i do not disbelieve it. most homeless people do have substance abuse and/or psychological problems and should be institutionalized. as a libertarian, how do you propose to do it? outsource it? not a TERRIBLE idea, actually, as many goverment agencies are woefully inadequate even when funded well, to do something. like the response to katrina. i have a friend who works with a local volunteer organization that has come into existance to help evacuees and has since morphed into a more generalized local red cross type outfit. he always talks about how difficult state government is, and how much more competant his organization is...he even advocates converting corporate tax money into donations to private non profit groups, outsourcing social welfare. interesting ideas...i think he also wants to actually make some money himself for all his now volunteer effort, for which i cannot fault him one iota.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/23/2006 @ 12:25am

108. Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/23/2006 @ 12:20am

     In a regulated market economy with books open to oversight, the enrons and worldcomes would have had a mush more difficult time doing what they did, if they could have done it at all. But that kind of oversight would also dampen the illusion of success that propelled the stock market in the ninties.

     And people wouldn't have been able to live out their high roller fantasy.

     It OK to dream. It's Ok to pursue dreams. But I wouldn't base the bread and butter policies of my country on the dreams of hitting it big in Vegas... or the new york stock exchange

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:27am

109. Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/23/2006 @ 12:17am | ignore this person

     What, you don't fit the phony stereotype of liberal bloodsucker on the government? That is an interesting story. Wonder if you've written it down previously. But you are correct, I think there are alot of good people are there willing to help each other. We need to promote this in our society, though it might not compete well with the stuff that stares at us in the supermarket aisles.

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:31am

110. Posted by WILL C. 02/23/2006 @ 12:27am | ignore this person

     Yeah, and it goes back to what we were saying before, about honorable behavior, such as that found in Asia. I only wish we didn't keep fooling ourselves into thinking that everything we do is superior to all else, thereby never bothering to look elsewhere for good ideas that might improve our own.

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:38am

111. We need to promote this in our society, though it might not compete well with the stuff that stares at us in the supermarket aisles.

     Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/23/2006 @ 12:31am | ignore this person

     True, but being an artist I explained to an IT person I work with once that making art is like pure science research-- it's a path/aisle one travels that's full unto itself, an affordable application is icing on the cake.

     Posted by Bushfools at 02/23/2006 @ 12:38am

112. True, but being an artist I explained to an IT person I work with once that making art is like pure science research-- it's a path/aisle one travels that's full unto itself, an affordable application is icing on the cake.

     Posted by BUSHFOOLS 02/23/2006 @ 12:38am |

     Yeah, bless art. Aside from appreciating art (my girlfriend used to paint), I go flyfishing...and it's not soley for the catching of the fish...it's the act of that draws me. To catch a fish is a reward.

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:50am

113. Will, even though you drive the conservative posters crazy- by finding their weak spots- with very little effort on your part, I believe that they mostly respect you, despite their bitching and complaining about your methods.

     Good posting all...and good night...

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:56am

114. :)

     Posted by Oustbush at 02/23/2006 @ 12:58am

115. When I was younger I was rather adept at being a philanderer and seducer of pretty young girls. As I aged, grew up, married and birthed girls of my own, I was rather disturbed at the conflict of carnal desire I once had for other women and the parental desire to protect what I loved unconditionally, my daughters. The solution I found was to see the girls I once desired as I do now my daughters and to feel as I do with my daughters. I now live not in perpetual lust but with a full heart seeing everywhere a world full of daughters everywhere saying-- hi dad. How different this is of our current government, having birthed an illegitimate industry, to then lust after others as not parents but as a perpetual philanderer in search of the next conquest regardless of the relationship and a deeper understanding and growth, love. In which, then breeds the opposite. This is truly a crime.

     Posted by Bushfools at 02/23/2006 @ 01:27am

116. The BC BS egime have heard Howard Bloom and do not care.

     Posted by Bushfools at 02/23/2006 @ 02:49am

117. Ibble,

     Yes, I did that with my friend and an experience with him and his offers of employment....real employment..later tonite if you are interested.

     "he always talks about how difficult state government is, and how much more competant his organization is...he even advocates converting corporate tax money into donations to private non profit groups, outsourcing social welfare. interesting ideas"

     Exactly... but the Wills of the world will look for a way to kill it off in case some one might acually make a profit at doing something he thinks the government should be doing, despite the abject failure and inefficiency of the cuurent system.

     Profit? God forbid and by its very nature it is bad and corrupt..evil corporation, yet the biggest"corporation" in thre world is US government and it loses to economy of scale..and no accountability.

     Ibble,

     I will talk to you later on the homeless experience if you wish..it was an amazing experience and I think you might find it enlighteneing. Must go to work now..

     Posted by john maasch at 02/23/2006 @ 08:16am

118. How is having Cheney's pals funding Libby's defense any different from paying a straight bribe to give testimony beneficial to Cheney? Does it get more blatant? Actually, it does...

     Last week when Cheney gave his only interview on the shooting incident, he sent Libby's attorney's a clear message as to what their defense strategy ought ot be. He indicated that he had "fixed it" so that the White House could prove that Cheney had actually declassified the Plame info prior to Libby releasing it. It's of course a lie, but obviously the whores inside Cheney's office have manufactured some false information that will be used to make it appear to be true.

     Here's how the conspiracy to expose an American spy's identity unfolded"

     "Cheney's and Libby's interest in Niger was apparently rekindled after New York Times columnist Nicholas D. Kristof wrote on May 6, 2003, that the CIA had sent an unnamed former ambassador to the African nation in February 2002 to investigate allegations that Iraq had attempted to purchase uranium from Niger. Kristof wrote that the ex-ambassador reported back to the CIA and the State Department that the allegations were "unequivocally wrong" and "based on forged documents."

     The column led Cheney and Libby to inquire about the then-still-unnamed ambassador and his trip to Niger. On May 29, 2003, Libby asked then-Undersecretary of State Marc Grossman for information about the mission. Grossman in turn assigned the State Department's Bureau of Intelligence and Research to prepare a report on the matter. Cheney's and Libby's interest in the issue led Tenet to seek more information as well.

     On June 11 or 12, according to the grand jury indictment of Libby, Grossman reported back that "in sum and substance Wilson's wife worked at the CIA, and the State Department personnel were saying that Wilson's wife was involved in the planning of his trip."

     Also on June 11, 2003, according to the indictment, "Libby spoke with a senior officer of the CIA to ask about the origin and circumstances of Wilson's trip, and was advised by the CIA officer that Wilson's wife worked at the CIA and was believed to be responsible for sending Wilson on the trip." On the very next day, June 12, the indictment said, Cheney more specifically informed Libby that Plame worked at the CIA's "Counterproliferation Division."

     Tenet received the highly classified memo on Niger from his analysts on June 17, 2003, five days after Cheney and Libby spoke with each other about Plame's working for the CIA. Sources familiar with the matter say that both Cheney and Libby were informed of the findings in the June 17 memo only days after Tenet himself read and reviewed it.

     In the memo, the CIA analysts wrote: "Since learning that the Iraqi-Niger uranium deal was based on false documents earlier this spring, we no longer believe that there is sufficient other reporting to conclude that Iraq purchased uranium from abroad." "

     http://nationaljournal.com/about/njweekly/stories/2006/0203nj3.htm

     Treason in high places.

     http://www.counterpunch.com/morris07272005.html

     http://www.forbes.com/work/feeds/afx/2005/12/18/afx2400383.html

     This Forbes article quoting Cheney is interesting:

     'It's the kind of capability if we'd had before 9/11 might have led us to be able to prevent 9/11,' Cheney said in an interview with ABC's 'Nightline' program."

     Mr. Cheney and Mr. Forbes have something in common...

     Now ask yourself what interest Mr. Forbes might have in providing cover for the Administration...give up?

     Let's take a look at the list of signatories to the PNAC, shall we?

     Steve Forbes actively participated in the following events:

     September 2000: PNAC Report Recommends Policies That Need New Pearl Harbor for Quick Implementation:

     PNAC drafts a strategy document, "Rebuilding America's Defenses: Strategies, Forces and Resources for a New Century," for George W. Bush's team before the 2000 Presidential election. The document was commissioned by future Vice President Cheney, future Defense Secretary Rumsfeld, future Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, Florida Governor Jeb Bush (Bush's brother), and future Vice President Cheney's Chief of Staff Lewis Libby. [Sources: Rebuilding America's Defenses]

     The document outlines a "blueprint for maintaining global US preeminence, precluding the rise of a great power rival, and shaping the international security order in line with American principles and interests."

     PNAC states further: "The United States has for decades sought to play a more permanent role in Gulf regional security. While the unresolved conflict with Iraq provides the immediate justification, the need for a substantial American force presence in the Gulf transcends the issue of the regime of Saddam Hussein."

     PNAC calls for the control of space through a new "US Space Forces," the political control of the Internet, and the subversion of any growth in political power of even close allies, and advocates "regime change" in China, North Korea, Libya, Syria, Iran, and other countries.

     It also mentions that "advanced forms of biological warfare that can 'target' specific genotypes may transform biological warfare from the realm of terror to a politically useful tool."

     However, PNAC complains that thes changes are likely to take a long time, "absent some catastrophic and catalyzing event--like a new Pearl Harbor." [Los Angeles Times, 1/12/03] Notably, while Cheney commissioned this plan (along with other future key leaders of the Bush administration), he defends Bush's position of maintaining Clinton's policy not to attack Iraq during an NBC interview in the midst of the 2000 presidential campaign, asserting that the US should not act as though "we were an imperialist power, willy-nilly moving into capitals in that part of the world, taking down governments." [Washington Post, 1/12/02] A British member of Parliament will later say of the report: "This is a blueprint for US world domination--a new world order of their making. These are the thought processes of fantasist Americans who want to control the world." [Sunday Herald, 9/7/02] Both PNAC and its strategy plan for Bush are almost virtually ignored by the media until a few weeks before the start of the Iraq war (see February-March 20, 2003).

     People and organizations involved: Aaron Friedberg, Steve Forbes, Elliott Abrams, Francis Fukuyama, Norman Podhoretz, Henry S. Rowen, Vin Weber, Eliot A. Cohen, Hasam Amin, William J. Bennett, Midge Decter, George Weigel, John Ellis ("Jeb") Bush, Lewis ("Scooter") Libby, Paul Wolfowitz, Donald Rumsfeld, Richard ("Dick") Cheney, Project for the New American Century, Paula J. Dobriansky, Frank Gaffney, Donald Kagan, Steve Rosen, Saddam Hussein, Peter Rodman, Zalmay M. Khalilzad, Dan Quayle, Syria, China, United States, Lybia, North Korea, Iraq, Fred C. Ikle

     http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/entity.jsp?id=1521846767-2624

     Well lookie there!

     Mr. Cheney and Mr. Forbes BOTH signed the strategic document which, when implemented, enabled the largest build up in the history of defense contracting, while simultaneously implementing the Energy Strategy plan that was secretly developed in the company of none other than Ken Lay.

     And what a coincidence that ABC News is playing its part in helping to push the Cheney agenda. Actually, it didn't even require wiretapping to catch some of the coconspirators with foreknowledge of 9/11, and ABC News' crack 20/20 investigative team knows the entire story:

     http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML%20Pages/ABCNEWS_com_Were_Israel is_Detained_Sept_11_Spies.htm

     Oh look! We've come full-circle to the DANCING ISRAELIS!

     Any coincidence theorists on the board?

     Cheney "Outsourced" a False Flag attack on the United States.

     He's got another one in the works.

     Posted by plunger at 02/23/2006 @ 08:54am

119. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/23/2006 @ 08:16am | ignore this person

     sounds good to me. i am a pragmatist and an idealist, a socialist in the fact that i believe a functional and healthy society (i do not beleive perfection is possible in this world, however) is beneficial to all involved from education to business, poor to rich, blah blah blah...how my vision comes to pass i do not particularly care, as long as the process is above the table and alleviates more suffering than it causes. i consider capitalism the best engine for economic growth, government functioning as anything from impartial referee in good times to whatever is needed in times of crisis...

     i dont think that implementation of alternative, private based socialist policy (privately owned/operatd socialist companies?) is as insane as it sounds. what bothers Will and others (including myself) is the idea that unfettered, unregulated, laissez faire captalism is the panacea for all that ails us, and the idea that there is something magical and inviolate about ceo's of big giant corporations making so much more bloated salaries than the lowest payed schmuck, whose labor said ceo needs and profits from, and who's future same overpaid ceo could care less about when the inevitable business cycle puts said schmuck on the street, often beyond optimally employable/trainable age.

     the amoral ayn rand nihilist then mutters something about how unfair life is and how he has put so much more time and effort into what he does and therefore deserves so much more than scmuck. like, overpaid executive is working 400+ times as hard and long as scmuck working 2 or more jobs to feed self and family (a depressingly accurate estimation of the earning difference between lowest paid schmuk and highest paid ceo). of course i understand the inherent unfairness of this world, and the value added of an education, as well as of the investment of time and money by the capitalist...but a ceo IS NOT AN ENTREPENEUR, is he/she? a ceo is a trained professional, salaried and recompensed, beaurocrat. and a corporation is not neccesarily the end result of adam smith's oft misrepresented ruminations/observations...

     are you familiar with various progressive city's efforts to create entrepeneurial zones, including localized agricultural markets, etc. etc.? i see no inherent conflict between libetarianism and progressivism as long as supporters of both extreme paradigms (government and private) respect one another's viewpoints, are willing to experiment with methodology that is inconsistant with preconceptions and pre-existant ideology, and prepared to admit when wrong, alter opinion based on verifiable reality, and refuse to be intellectually enslaved by STUPID IDEOLOGY...of any type...

     truth is, in my opinion, unfettered capitalism leads to disaster, as surely as does rampant governmentalism (at least that is the lesson i see from history) and these STUPID ideologies lower otherwise intelligent people's IQ by providing a filter to all information that does not fit into one's ideology...

     that said, polite discourse and respect for each other's opinions, a willingness to compromise (that upon which has been built our very nation) and experimant, and a scientific dedication to verifiable reality, are all in sore need these days. as a buddhist i beliebe in compassion, but only when girded by wisdom - too little of either results in disaster.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/23/2006 @ 10:03am

120. Exactly... but the Wills of the world will look for a way to kill it off in case some one might acually make a profit at doing something he thinks the government should be doing, despite the abject failure and inefficiency of the cuurent system.

     Posted by JOHN MAASCH 02/23/2006 @ 08:16am

     John

     If you're going to ignore me. You can't talk about me anymore. Otherwise you look like a little pussy taking shots at me from behind your ignore list.

     Have you been drinkihng this morning because you forgot everything you said last night?

     (or was it just last night)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:07am

121. WILL

     You are not on my ignore list, only one that is on the list permanently is RESE, for massively excessive posts. Every now and then I put people on that selectively, only for short time, usually because I dont want to get into petty school yard back and forths.

     Your posts often degenerate quickly into these kinds of exchanges, proudly by your own design, but i always unignore usually that very day. But for the record i have not put you on that list for some time, or anyone else for that matter.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:24am

122. Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:24am | ignore this person

     even me, cap'n?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/23/2006 @ 10:36am

123. Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:24am

     So then you admit to the lie you were telling the day you were pretending that my posts weren't on your computer screen (because that's what the ignore button does) and you were answering them as though you had some form of clairvoyance.

     (but then you wingnuts can read minds. But only if those thoughts are printed out for you)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:40am

124. LEGBA/MALCONTENT

     You seem to be equating the victims of Katrina who squandered much of what the govt gave them in those 2000 dollar debit cards on porn, lap dances, Hi-Def TVs, tattoos and other "necessites"

     With those who EARN their paycheck, BIG DIFFERENCE, the military whom you tried to cite as being the recipients of govt handouts, are wholly EARNING their check.

     Sorry your poor Katrina "victims", who wasted their debit card moeny, have not earned shit.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:40am

125. WILL. C

     Was not lying to you, that day you were ignored, i was trying to have a serious discourse with some one else and your posts were becoming annoying. If I accurately predicted your posts, its only because it was easy to do so, it was not rocket science. No insult intended, i am sure you can accurately id what I would say in repost in certain situations

     No big deal WILL.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:45am

126. You seem to be equating the victims of Katrina who squandered much of what the govt gave them in those 2000 dollar debit cards on porn, lap dances, Hi-Def TVs, tattoos and other "necessites"

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:40am

     So the petty schoolyard back and forths are a little too low brow for you eh, CPT.

     I'll try to be more vicious in the future for you. That seems to be your thing.

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:46am

127. IBBEL

     No just referring to WILL C. , hey i like the disagreements, it is just that sometimes we get into trying to insult the other guy, we forget what the issue is, every now and then one has to step back and get clarity

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:46am

128. Ah, good old CPT. He turns the argument on its head as always. No one was condemning any servicemen here, CPT. What was being attacked was your tone, your self righteous tone about the way in which SOME victims of the disaster- and a very tiny minority of the victims at that- abused the assistance they were given.

     Regardless of the role of the capitalist state at every level in actually allowing the decay of infrastructure that made the disaster that followed Katrina possible, he's going to blame the victim. And he and his friends want to do for Iraq what his politics are doing in the United States.

     And wh

     Posted by Legba at 02/23/2006 @ 10:47am

129. Was not lying to you, that day you were ignored,

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:45am

     Then why did you say you were ignoring me but not censoring me. You made a big deal once that the ignore button was a form a censoring. Did you lie about that too?

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:48am

130. WILL

     Not really, every now and then it ok, just was not in the mood then.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:48am

131. WILL

     Just that day for a couple of hours, i forget, but there was another conversation going on, and i wanted to concentrate on that, as i recall it was more serious, than the what was going on with you. I could not conentrate on that if i was trying to repsond to the insult fest. So just decided to try it that day.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:51am

132. Not really, every now and then it ok, just was not in the mood then.

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:48am

     Not really isn't no, CPT. It's yes.

     You did lie

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:52am

133. And I think it's damn interesting how that story about abuse of the system came out at the same time a report on the White House's stonewalling and covering up of the administration's neglect in the Katrina episode came out. Only an idiot like CPT would focus on the alleged abusers of assistance when the real tragedy is so much larger.

     And more interesting still is his argument that though the use of funds to purchase lap dances etc is immoral, soldiers have earned that right. As I said, the righteousness of people who sell shit within the law is an awesome thing. But shit is still shit, and the people who dispense it are still shitmongers, and the people who swim in it are still swimming in shit, regardless of the righteous claim that they've "earned" the privilege. What a moron.

     Posted by Legba at 02/23/2006 @ 10:54am

134. LEGBA

     How can ANYONE here determine one's tone here on a webblog. Very hard to do. esepcially when a post takes a couple of minutes to write. You cannot be Walt Whitman on a blog board

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:54am

135. I could not conentrate on that if i was trying to repsond to the insult fest. So just decided to try it that day.

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:51am

     But CPT you did repond to me during the "insult fest" useing your clarvoyant powers. And you did so in a rathewr insulting way.

     So your lying to me agian.

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:54am

136. Jesus, why am I arguing with this partyline jackass CPT again? Life is too short. Go find some kids to get their legs blown off, CPT.

     Posted by Legba at 02/23/2006 @ 10:55am

137. If you can't tell my tone, CPT, you're dumber than I thought. As you say, this isn't Whitmanesque in substance. Now, I'm going to go struggle with some young people who are actually trying to learn something about this world.

     Posted by Legba at 02/23/2006 @ 10:57am

138. LEGBA

     Very sad that you and many others seem to MISS the REAL issue, of a group of people in NO who WAITED for SOMEONE else to save them.

     That is the issue, the mind set of ENTITLEMENT as opposed to EMPOWERMENT.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 10:58am

139. Legba

     Isn't tone something teach in english class. CPt is an active duty officer which means he has to have a college degree.

     Which means he's had to have taken college level english.

     (And in exposotory writing they teach tone)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:59am

140. correction... something they teach

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 10:59am

141. WILL

     Then you will believe what you will, i cannot change it, I did not lie to you. That day for a couple of hours at least you were ignored. And you were unignored later that very day. Because i thought better of the "ignore list" and went thru that very thought process.

     So i unignored and thought that it is better to listen to a variety of thought masked be insults than to not listen at all.

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 11:03am

142. Back later

     Posted by CPT at 02/23/2006 @ 11:05am

143. So i unignored and thought that it is better to listen to a variety of thought masked be insults than to not listen at all.

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 11:03am |

     And why should I beleive this when you've already lied to me twice today? And how could you possibly characterise my one liners as insulting if you are clueless about tone?

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 11:06am

144. IBBEL

     No just referring to WILL C. , hey i like the disagreements, it is just that sometimes we get into trying to insult the other guy, we forget what the issue is, every now and then one has to step back and get clarity

     Posted by CPT 02/23/2006 @ 10:46am | ignore this person

     i like to think we are all big boys and girls here who thrive on spirited debate...sort of reminds me of that loony tunes cartoon where the wolf and sheepdog pleasantly greet each other each morning, clock in, and proceed to kick each other's butts til the whistle blows, then politely stop and continue their predvious pleasantries and go home...

     but how bout those recordings of prewar saddam predicting some terrorist attack on the us and saying it would not come from iraq? its getting very ugly over there now in the black hole of baghdad...wouldn't it be nice if we were only concentrating our force and rebuilding efforts in afghanistan and not trying to prevent anarchic civil war in the great distraction?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/23/2006 @ 11:45am

145. hey guys, there is a war going on, and you're talking about what?

     the civil war in Iraq, unleashed by the US, is kicking up a notch. and you're talking about what?

     the congress is burying the illegal spying inquiry, and you're discussing what?

     four more GIs killed by a roadside bomb, and you're discussing what?

     the pentagon asks a journalist to kill a story about IEDs, and CBS complies on the grounds that the story might help the enemy. it seems to me that they are doing pretty good with their bombs, and hardly need any help. and you're bloviating about what?

     Posted by johannesrolf at 02/23/2006 @ 12:09pm

146. johannesrolf, i have a hard time keeping up with acronyms sometimes. what are ieds?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:13pm

147. The things the war was designed to turn us away from

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:14pm

148. johannesrolf, kicking up a notch? i'd guess that it's in full force now. past the point of no return.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:15pm

149. will, that didn't help. come on, it's morning still here in mt.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:15pm

150. mourning in America?

     soon

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:16pm

151. now was that cynical or brutally honest?

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:17pm

152. so, ieds are bombs?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:22pm

153. improvised explosive devises

     yes

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:24pm

154. hey loki

     do you live near Butte

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:25pm

155. ya, will, born, raised and still here.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:28pm

156. Improvised explosive device= roadside bomb.

     these are the explosives, which were in the giant ammo dumps all over Iraq, the invading US army did not safeguard.

     my apologies, I can't seem to keep up with my death tolls, SEVEN US soldiers killed in TWO attacks.

     everytime I read that, an icecold shudder runs up my spine. can we talk about what these youngsters are dying for?

     we haven't heard a lot about freedom and democracy in Iraq, have we. that's because it was a lie from the start, and these lies have a way of stinking up the joint as time passes.

     the mis-administration benefits from all these tempests in a teapot, like the Cheney shooting, or the ports contretemps, as they distract the public and the pundits

     Posted by johannesrolf at 02/23/2006 @ 12:32pm

157. yes, johannesrolf, i'm starting to think they're using scandal as a tactic. that's a new one.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 12:34pm

158. ya, will, born, raised and still here.

     Posted by LOVELOKI 02/23/2006 @ 12:28am

     Cool, I have a question for you. It's off topic but I never been able to get an answer from anybody.

     What are the name of the trees that live along the stream beds and have the orange tint to their new wood. You can see the color in winter when they have no leaves. It's the coolest color I've ever seen in a tree but I've only seen it when driving along the interstates in Montana... nowhere else

     (Montana does have some gorgeous color combinations in it's flora.)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 12:44pm

159. hey, I can off topic with anyone. do you get a lot of Butte jokes over there? are you often the Butte of jokes about Butte? do you ever tell folks there to Butte out? and one more to connect with a previous post: the Butte for fortune go you or I. that's probably enough

     Posted by johannesrolf at 02/23/2006 @ 1:07pm

160. uh oh, you're going to butte heads with our Butte-iful friend Loki if you keep busting his butte about Butte.

     (sorry loki, it's isn't everyday you get to use corny Butte jokes)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 1:20pm

161. will, you could be talking about red-osier dogwoods, which sometimes take on an orange hue. or one of the 19 species of willow that grow here, which depending on their age can take on various orange hues. but both of these are shrubs. no offense to these beautiful plants.

     since you said tree, you must be talking about the western birch which usually has a chocolate brown bark but sometimes has a really pretty bronze bark.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:21pm

162. johannesrolf, the rest of the state constantly makes jokes about butte, but not while they're here. we here in butte like their repulsion to our city, because it keeps them away. hopefully butte never becomes like bozangeles. i love butte. we're a mile high, a mile deep and everybody's on the level.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:24pm

163. Posted by LOVELOKI 02/23/2006 @ 1:21pm

     hmm, interesting. What I'm refering to is definately a tree and they always seem to be concentrated around running water. Maybe they are one of your native willows.

     Not to much to look at all leafed out, but man are they sharp in the winter

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 1:25pm

164. by the way, no offense taken.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:27pm

165. will, could be but the willows here are more like shrubs.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:27pm

166. it's probably the birch. they're riparian.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:29pm

167. johannesrolf, you would be welcome here in butte. you would probably like it here.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:30pm

168. Posted by LOVELOKI 02/23/2006 @ 1:24pm

     I had the opportunity to stop in one of the two butte hospitals to get some meds for a sore throat that wouldn't quit when I was driving from Chicago to Seattle. (It was the one on the opposite side of town from the interstate) In their lobby area they have a simulated trout stream with live trout swimming around in it.

     I'm an aquarium nut and it was very, very cool.

     (Took some of the fire out of my tonsils as I waited for the scrip to be filled)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 1:31pm

169. whichever it was will, you're right about the scenery here. it is incredibly beautiful. it still amazes me daily.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:32pm

170. so will, was this in the 60's or 70's?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:35pm

171. a year and a half ago

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 1:44pm

172. ok, will, now i realize you saw orange trees because you were on acid right? the last time there were two hospitals here was the late 60's early 70's timeframe. and as for the trout in the simulated stream....see my above point.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 1:49pm

173. and will, you would be welcome here, too.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 2:02pm

174. Posted by LOVELOKI 02/23/2006 @ 2:02pm

     If I ever drive back though I'll stop by and say high.

     but not how

     :)

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 2:57pm

175. is that an indian reference or an acid reference?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 3:06pm

176. acid

     I have the up most repect for the original Americans

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 4:01pm

177. me too. where do you live?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/23/2006 @ 4:15pm

178. seattle

     Posted by Will C. at 02/23/2006 @ 5:23pm