Bill Moyers Tells a Tale of Two Quagmires: Vietnam & Afghanistan

Bill Moyers, who was at the side of President Lyndon Johnson at the time when disastrous decisions were being made to escalate the U.S. presence in the quagmire that was Vietnam, used his experience to speak last Friday night to President Barack Obama about what could be an equally disastrous decision to escalate the U.S. presence in the quagmire that is Afghanistan.

"Our country wonders this weekend what is on President Obama's mind," Moyers began, at the opening of a remarkable hour of television. "He is apparently, about to bring months of deliberation to a close and answer General Stanley McChrystal's request for more troops in Afghanistan. When he finally announces how many, why, and at what cost, he will most likely have defined his presidency, for the consequences will be far-reaching and unpredictable. As I read and listen and wait with all of you for answers, I have been thinking about the mind of another president, Lyndon B. Johnson."

The presidential adviser turned journalist, who will retire his "Bill Moyers Journal" television program in April, then turned to decades old tapes that were recorded as Johnson was making the decision to surge hundreds of thousands of additional soldiers into a war that would kill almost 60,000 Americans and more than a million Vietnamese.

One point of the program, he explained, was to offer viewers "an insight into the mind of one president facing the choice of whether or not to send more and more American soldiers to fight in a far-away and strange place."

But another point was to offer Obama and his aides, who seem to be determined to surge more troops into Afghanistan, a caution that only a few wise and worldly senators provided Johnson back in the mid-1960s -- chief among them Oregon's Wayne Morse, about whom Johnson says on one of the tapes: "outside Morse, everybody I talk to says you got to go in..."

Moyers was not making crude or casual analogies.

"Granted," he explained early on, "Barack Obama is not Lyndon Johnson, Afghanistan is not Vietnam and this is now, not then. But listen and you will hear echoes and refrains that resonate today."

The tapes of Johnson were indeed eerie and resonant, especially those where the former president says of the battle to which he is about to commit what he calls "the flower of our youth, our finest young men": "I don't think it's worth fighting for and I don't think we can get out. And it's just the biggest damned mess that I ever saw."

But even more powerful was the recognition that the man playing them was a witness to history who had learned from his experiences. For Moyers, there was something deeply personal and yet profoundly public about the statement he was making; before it aired Friday, he told me he saw the program as "one of the most important I've done in years."

So it was.

And the most powerful part of a remarkably powerful program came at its conclusion, when Bill Moyers looked into the camera and said:

Now in a different world, at a different time, and with a different president, we face the prospect of enlarging a different war. But once again we're fighting in remote provinces against an enemy who can bleed us slowly and wait us out, because he will still be there when we are gone.

Once again, we are caught between warring factions in a country where other foreign powers fail before us. Once again, every setback brings a call for more troops, although no one can say how long they will be there or what it means to win. Once again, the government we are trying to help is hopelessly corrupt and incompetent.

And once again, a President pushing for critical change at home is being pressured to stop dithering, be tough, show he's got the guts, by sending young people seven thousand miles from home to fight and die, while their own country is coming apart.

And once again, the loudest case for enlarging the war is being made by those who will not have to fight it, who will be safely in their beds while the war grinds on. And once again, a small circle of advisers debates the course of action, but one man will make the decision.

We will never know what would have happened if Lyndon Johnson had said no to more war. We know what happened because he said yes.

It is possible to go to the "Bill Moyers Journal" website and view "A Tale of Quagmires."

It is possible, as well, to visit the same site and read the transcript of a wise and nuanced rumination that is arguably the best statement available on both the war in Vietnam and the war in Afghanistan.

Comments (102)

1. Bill Moyers will be sorely missed, his has been the voice of reason for many years now, and we all would be smart to listen to his words, I can think of no one currently who can take his place, and I thank him for being there when we were and still are wandering in the wilderness.

   Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 09:51am

2. YOU folks asked for this Hopey and Changey......let's just see how it's delivered.

   You know the FedEx (or UPS?) commercials....when it positively must get there? Well, the time to dither over Afghanistan is mercifully, coming to an end? Hell, I will believe that when our Ditherer-in-Chief actually decide, yet again (since March's version).

   Posted by Happy at 11/21/2009 @ 10:25am

3. Bravo Denise - without the likes of Moyer, there will be less light in the forest.

   I saw the Moyer broadcast last night and was amazed at the stumbling done by all at the top of the LBJ administration and Congress, trying to get out of the way of this rabid 'anti-communist, dominoe falling' posture that Eisenhower led us into.

   As what should have been done in Vietnam, the original reasons for starting a conflict must continually be reevaluated for authenticity.

   What Moyer forgot to mention and what was the most telling fact for me was that Diem, right before Kennedy authorized his coup(murder) wanted to negotiate peace with Ho Chi Mihn and bring that peace to all of Vietnam - but the US wouldn't have it. What a disgrace that we let our ignorance of a nation's independence take precedance over our greed.

   Posted by JustOneBobofMany at 11/21/2009 @ 10:32am

4. Ya, we had to leave vietnam with victory and honor, listening to the hawks, how did that work out hmmm?

   Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 10:36am

5. Vietnam was a continuation of the Korean War in a different spot. We had to show the Freench that we could win this war too.It was a linchpin in our Containment of Communism Doctrine.Now our policy is borrow from the Red Chinese.In the next sentence we call them great capitalists. The sentence after that is uttered by conservatives as their mantra"socialized medicine".If we borrow from the Chinese to pay for health care I guess you coul;d call it socialized health care. My question is this.What do you call war that you borrow from the Communist Chinese to pay for? Is it socialized warfare.It isn't that simple but isn't it?

   Posted by whatozz at 11/21/2009 @ 10:56am

6. Happy, your ignorance shows no bounds.

   The people you follow BLINDLY, w/o question , have what experience..?? Tell me..?? Where do these pieces of human garbage (rush , hannity, kristol... the list goes on) draw their opinions from..?? What did they do ..?? What did they do..?

   Bill Moyers is an actual, genuine news man with REAL experience..?? I ask you again, what experience do your HEROES draw from ..??

   You follow jesus freaks, and drug addicts like they actually know what they are talking about ..?? Do they ..??

   DITHER..?? Seriously, you have no opinion if it doesn't pop out of Rush's pie hole. But you don't see it that way.... Ignorant.

   I know you didn't even see the Moyers piece and as usual you are just talking out your ass (like your heroes) .... Ignorant.

   AND, you and the rest of the Bush apologists on here just wait for Obama decide one way or another and then say it's all wrong..... Bush really screwed the pooch here didn't he... ?? Your Boy...Of course he didn't..... I'm just being Ignorant...

   Posted by Vvf1969 at 11/21/2009 @ 11:06am

7. .. I'm just being Ignorant...

   Posted by Vvf1969 at 11/21/2009 @ 11:06am

   But of course you are.....w/my blessings.......you're good w/me...it's because of Obamabots like you, I know conservatism is coming back in a big way and my kids' generation will have learned the same lessons I learned with Reagan!

   Power to Magic....may he stay a Ditherer!

   Posted by Happy at 11/21/2009 @ 11:33am

8. >>>"Granted," he explained early on, "Barack Obama is not Lyndon Johnson, Afghanistan is not Vietnam and this is now, not then. <<<

   The Vietnam analogy only goes so far. There was never the prospect of Vietnam becoming a haven for international terrorists if we withdrew, or the prospect of ANOTHER conservative revolution for 30 years if we withdraw and are attacked again by terrorists trained in Afghanistan.

   The Jimmy Carter analogy is much more appropriate if you are a concerned progressive, as the Democrats and progressives cannot afford another presidency marred by "weakness" in the face of serious international threats.

   The HUMAN TOLL of 30 more years of conservative polices on the poor and middle class, FAR outweighs the human toll from this war, and progressives should be mindful of this fact when debating Afghanistan policy.

   Sometimes we get sucked into the politics of the moment without taking the "long-view" on the progressive movement.

   Posted by Metteyya at 11/21/2009 @ 11:37am

9. <The tapes of Johnson were indeed eerie and resonant, especially those where the former president says of the battle to which he is about to commit what he calls "the flower of our youth, our finest young men": "I don't think it's worth fighting for and I don't think we can get out. And it's just the biggest damned mess that I ever saw.">

   I wish LBJ would have voiced his lack of competence back in 1966 when I was enlisting to fight communism.

   It certainly doesn't change the fact that the fight was the right one. It simply validates what many of us realized back then.

   We were serving an incompetent president who wasnt capable or willing to fight to win.

   Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:51am

10. I for one am glad that we have just about seen the last of Moyers, the leftist apologist who has disiliked America for over 40 years.

    Good Riddance to bad rubbish.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:52am

11. Happy still hasn't come to terms with the fact that his side lost.

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 11:53am

12. Sometimes we get sucked into the politics of the moment without taking the "long-view" on the progressive movement.

    Posted by Metteyya at 11/21/2009 @ 11:37am | ignore this person | warn this person

    i'd say that for most americans regardless of political bent.

    i wonder about a lot. i wonder what obama really thinks, wants. ultimately i don't know.

    IS he holding back for fear of a conservative backlash. if so, holding back is probably precisely what he should not do. its the holding back that appears weak.

    part of obama's electoral success was related to hordes of folks who usually never vote voting.

    will these folks get out and vote again? will black folks who never voted until obama ran vote for white democrats or progressives? will passive white psuedo-racists who agreed with his politics and voted obama in 08 be there for him in 12?

    will the fiercely ignorant american people lose patience and vote the same morons whose ideas got us into the economic mess we are in when it becomes painfully obvious that everything is not going to be all right overnight?

    lots of questions, answers forthcoming.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 11:59am

13. Something always seems wrong with the Vietnam comparisons in these Afghnaistan discussions. Is 9/11 supposed to be the Gulf of Tonkin?

    If you say there was little or no legal basis for going into Afghanistan -- that George Bush's "...and those who harbor them" was a thin reed to hang this enterprise on -- then I'll nod along. Or if you say War Is Not the Answer, I'll sign the petition. I'm all for anyone who can find diplomatic, judicial, financial and other non-military ways to fight these groups. I recall Colin Powell saying at the beginning of the GWOT that that was in fact the plan -- until the plan became Iraq.

    But there's something knee-jerk and underthought in most of these comparisons to Vietnam. "Bread Not Bombs" is something less than a thoughtful discussion of possible non-military strategies for preventing more hijackings and train bombings.

    Posted by RLawrence at 11/21/2009 @ 12:33pm

14. Comparisons with Vietnam are an exercise in futility. Depending upon who you research, their political spin is unavoidable. That goes for Moyers as well as any other.

    A good argument is made in the book, 'A Better War', that General Abrams actually had that war won before the politicians blew it.

    From Wiki, 'He (Abrams) also devoted vastly more time than his predecessor had to expanding, training, and equipping the ARVN. His strategy was surprisingly successful and as a result, the south repelled a full-scale NVA Easter Offensive in 1972 with US aerial support. While Abrams was changing the way the war was fought however, PUBLIC AND POLITICAL SUPPORT for his efforts at home had dwindled substantially. Before his gains had a chance of being consolidated, most of the American troops had been pulled out by 1972, when he stepped down from the Military Assistance Command.

    Will this same fate befall General McChrystal?

    Vietnam and Afghanistan differ mainly in the initial reason why we made the decision to engage these wars. Vietnam was to stem the tide of Communism in Asia while Afghanistan was the direct result of an act of war (9/11) by factions located there. One can easily compare Afghanistan to Japan in WWII as being directly responsible to an act of agression on America.

    The correct decision for President Obama to make at this time is to acceed to General McChrystal and provide the troops and material support that he needs to get the job done with the minimumof loss to our personnel. The sooner he can bring himself to that realization, the sooner the war on terror can be won.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 12:40pm

15. Taking military pressure off gihadists in their home regions is not a good idea. Neither is a Vietnam-style escalation to prop up a corrupt regime. The only answer left is for NATO to be the harasser of the Taliban element, not the occupier of Afghanistan -- saw a cool site; Balkingpoints ; awesome satellite view of earth

    Posted by reg373 at 11/21/2009 @ 12:59pm

16. by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009...

    Will they re-elect him?...

    I was particularly taken by the video... and the clarity with which it portrayed LBJ as fearing that the American public would see him as 'weak'... if he 'backed down'...

    ...and would therefore not vote for him in the coming election... even though 60 percent of the nation polled agnostic on the Viet Nam issue at the time.

    Is this sort of 'American fighting man' posture an irrevocable ethos that animates our national discourses on foreign policy... and... our election proceedings? Is it effective, rational and patriotic policy stimulus?

    Is this a cold war phenomenon... a shimmering mirage... that has evoked its unneeded presence in our contemporary world... with its fractionated non-national terrorists... and it's war torn biomes of human suffering that have forgotten how to profit from anything but invaders's vulnerabilities and the particular 'payoffs' they bring to the economies inherently destroyed by waging war there at all?

    Moyers is an excellent journalist... and this was one of the finest exposes in recent memory that I have seen.

    Thank you!

    Posted by ttr at 11/21/2009 @ 12:59pm

17. For the life of me, I do not understand the problem that democrats, liberals or progressives or any other label that applies, have with securing America from threats from abroad while at the same time protecting our and our ally's vital interests. Why is it always the denocrats even though there are democrats fighting who constantly critisize their own. These people are like little mice running around the legs of an elephant, annoying the shit out of him while he tries to protect them.

    Where is the patriotism, the honor, the anger at those who would try to wipe out our way of life. The people who are complaining now and are trying to sway Obama to get out of Afghanistan before the war is won, are the same people who blame America for the attacks on the towers and the Pentagon. They are the same people who would spit in the face of a returning war hero because he had to fight for their right to do so.

    It's truly sickening and I cannot for the life of me see any reason why this publication and others like it can do what they do every day and still call themselves Americans. Dissent in a time of war is perfectly ok under our Constitution but it is definitely not the honorable thing to do while we have our sons and daughters in harms way. They read too you know.

    I challange everyone and any one to learn these words:

    You're a grand old flag, You're a high flying flag, And forever in peace may you wave. You're the emblem of The land I love, The home of the free and the brave. Ev'ry heart beats true Under Red, White and Blue, Where there's never a boast or brag; But should auld acquaintance be forgot, Keep your eye on the grand old flag.

    Now think about the men and women who died for what that flag represents. You should feel it in your heart.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:28pm

18. "It certainly doesn't change the fact that the fight was the right one. It simply validates what many of us realized back then.

    We were serving an incompetent president who wasnt capable or willing to fight to win."

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:51am

    Notice that this sickly anal drippage comes from the same manipulative ignoramus who ...

    ... Has minted one weepy apologetic for the epitome of loserdom George W Pansy ("Hell, no I Won't Go! I am filthy Rich & Soooo Connected , and Yes I am a cheerleader...And besides it's last call!") and his non-exietent record in combat in Nam. But ANTISOCIAL's pro-war hystericisms are directed at *Moyers* and *not* at *George W Pansy* who has made a life out of using the American flag as tiolet paper when he was not making the cheap & manipulative show of wrapping himself in it to pander for votes from real Americans.

    Of course, we must also recognize that ANTISOCIAL is indicative of larger trends in which the 20%ers -- ignorant & feral rightwing fecal matter -- volunteer themselves to be Saint Sarah Shitto-Heads & Haters...when she had addressed a pro-succession party the very *month* before she has the ass to campaign under the empty slogan "Country First".

    They are rightwing fecal slop. They are complete & total ignoramuses, America haters in the fiber of their beings and on inferior plane on which the rightwing fecal zombies exist, to whom no quarter shall be given...

    Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 11/21/2009 @ 1:32pm

19. Our President needs to understand that he is the leader of the FREE world. This is the worst possible time for America to be projecting the image of weakness. That is a prescription for disaster. Stop the bowing and the apologizing. It's sickening and a disgrace to all the families of the fallen.

    Socialized HC doesn't even come close in the chain of priorities when measured against national security and in winning the war on terror.

    We will always have a war on poverty because a segment of our society cannot or will not try to better themselves without government freebies. It's always easier to take the easy way out.

    Obama is going to have to take a deep breath and realize that he is only one man. No man is an island. We simply can not afford to do everything all at once just because one party has control.

    But whatever gets done in the next four years, the nation's security and defense should, as always, be first and foremost on the agenda.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:36pm

20. I know that most Americans feel the way that I do. The proof is in the ratings both for talk radio and for Fox News.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:37pm

21. Posted by RLawrence at 11/21/2009 @ 12:33pm

    Iraq was a threat, if not because of WMD, then because of their flaunting of UN resolutions that kept them in business after the Gulf War where GB could have easily taken Saddam out. Hussein's own stupidity and belligerence resulted in his hanging, a fate some would call an easy way out for a scoundrel. The only thing that GWB was guilty of was not having a better plan to preserve the peace. Exit strategies be damned. Time and dates of withdrawal can never be accurately predicted in the face of the variables that present themselves in any war.

    People need to remember that our politicians will never, that's NEVER tell their citizens that they are going to war for oil. The military leaders and the political leaders all know it but it can never be stated in a sentence because the people, WE The People would never be able to stomach the fact that we are offering the lives of our sons and daughters to protect our economy and our standard of living. Although GWB in an unguarded moment once did say that it's all about the oil.

    Those who understand that in order to protect freedom, we have to remain strong an a world economy that totally depends on oil for us and our allies. Those who understand that principle are way ahead in the intelligence curve.

    The European socialists and other world's people who resent America for their resolve to stay strong to protect freedom do not deserve any apologies from our President. A black American President shouldn't be bowing to anybody period. This is an act that will come back to haunt him in 2012.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:54pm

22. Ya gunny, we can have em die over here instead of over there.

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:57pm

23. I know that most Americans feel the way that I do.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:37pm

    But a real important question to ask is :

    does popularity inform morality?

    Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/21/2009 @ 2:05pm

24. I for one am glad that we have just about seen the last of Moyers, the leftist apologist who has disiliked America for over 40 years.

    Good Riddance to bad rubbish.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:52am | ignore this person | warn this person

    i think conservatives hate america and slur those who hold different opinions as america haters and unpatriotic.

    pure projection, and so consistently bandied about by those on the shrinking old right that i find it hard to see in any other way.

    unamerican...unamerican...

    what, pray tell, is "american"?

    i'm as american as apple pie and chevy. i love capitalism and am confident that our red white and blue gubbamint can be capitalism's biggest bestest friend, by...

    1. flexibly and responsibly planning for the future based on science and observable reality.

    2. taking onerous and distracting tasks off the backs of american business like pension portability and health insurance, things better done by an entity NOT concerned with making big profits contingent upon the misery of others...

    3. sanely redistributing wealth so as to assure a wealthy and sustainably consuming consumer class.

    4. not setting the fox to watch over the hen house or the wolves to guard the flock, in terms of finance and BAD business practices. in fact, lets keep the hound and the sheepdog watching over the weak and clueless...and watching out for the wolves...

    5. thoughtfully adopting policies as needed. not avoiding policies that some century dead fellow once espoused who happened to call himself "socialist". nor adopting another policy because some decades dead author/philosopher idolized laissez faire capitalism after being raised in an imperfect, brutal communist system and then feted by the wealthiest capitalists of america.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 2:06pm

25. does popularity inform morality?

    Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/21/2009 @ 2:05pm

    Morality is real is relative in war.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:10pm

26. 3. sanely redistributing wealth so as to assure a wealthy and sustainably consuming consumer class.

    Then you are a socialist, correct?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:13pm

27. Taking money from people who have earned it and giving it to those who have not is called 'charity.'

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:15pm

28. <i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:51am </i>

    Now hold on one second. It was my understanding that you trusted the President and his decision-making when it came to exercising power over the conduct of a war. Is that not the case?

    <i>Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:28pm</i>

    Maybe the problem people have is that mere "interests," of either ourselves or our allies, do not justify killing people. For instance, if a war were the only means of preventing the value of the dollar or the yen from diminishing, or of securing adequate natural resources for us or an ally, I do not believe it would be morally justified. The concern people sometimes express is that they believe those ARE the reasons wars are often fought. Though I believe there is a strong place for patriotism, appealing to it will not adequately address legitimate concerns about the motives underlying particular military actions. Do I think that the war in Iraq was initiated for oil? No. Do I think the people who claim it was deserve a response other than "be more patriotic"? Yes.

    I would argue that war may be justified only when the people and/or security of a state are at stake, or fundamental human rights are threatened (ex: to stop genocide).

    Posted by Thrawn at 11/21/2009 @ 2:17pm

29. I challange everyone and any one to learn these words:

    You're a grand old flag, You're a high flying flag, And forever in peace may you wave. You're the emblem of The land I love, The home of the free and the brave. Ev'ry heart beats true Under Red, White and Blue, Where there's never a boast or brag; But should auld acquaintance be forgot, Keep your eye on the grand old flag.

    Now think about the men and women who died for what that flag represents. You should feel it in your heart.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:28pm | ignore this person |

    i challenge all right wing genuflecting showy patriots to memorize these words...

    i don't need you to tell me how to be properly patriotic.

    my dad fought in WW2 and never expected anyone to smooch his posterior for doing what he felt was his duty, to not have done which would have been shameful to be sure...

    he never cared much for the hippys and flag burners, to be sure, and thought the country was going to hell in a hand basket at the time...but people have been thinking THAT for a while now, so big deal...

    but proper lessons on patriotism sound more like commernism or fascism to me.

    i love my country as it is - which means i recognize imperfections and call attention to them. i also wish very powerfully for it to survive and thrive, which means it must change from time to time.

    but a few years ago i remember going to a grocery store around xmas and setting off some stupid motion sensor teddy bear in desert camo which proceeded to play that awful, maudlin, "god bless the USA" lee greenwood crap and it was all i could do to not grab it, stomp it into a pulp, and then pay for it.

    and dare some half wit to lecture me on patriotism...

    thank god for my fully developed frontal brain lobe...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 2:20pm

30. G.W. Bush admits that the Iraq War is about oil"

    Bush: "Because a democracy in the Middle East, a society based upon liberty, will be a defeat for the terrorists, who have clearly said they want a safe haven from which to launch attacks against America, a safe haven from which to topple moderate governments in the Middle East, a safe haven from which to spread their jihadist point of view, which is that there are no freedoms in the world; we will dictate to you how you think.

    I know some Americans don't think that is a threat. I view it as a threat because -- and the reason it's a threat is I can conceivably see a world in which radicals and extremists control oil. And they would say to the West: You either abandon Israel, for example, or we're going to run the price of oil up."

    From an interview with George Stephanopolous on ABC's This Week during the war.

    The first paragraph here still applies to Afghanistan.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:37pm

31. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 2:06pm

    Truth with profundity.

    Posted by Sorelish at 11/21/2009 @ 2:40pm

32. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 2:20pm

    I agree that patriotism is not something that can be taught. It has to be felt.

    An example: This week the History ran a five night series WWII in HD. It was based on the stories of twelve people intricatly involved with winning that war and fighting in it.

    One scene had a former soldier, Rocky Blount, describie how he felt when he was lost, stranded from his unit and he came upon a German standing guard. In relating the way he snuck up behind him and slit his throat, Blount closed his eyes and, with a trembling voice after all these years, relived the moment for all of us to see and hear.

    This was not an act of patriotism for Blount. It was an act of survival. It is a microcosm of the larger issue of the nation's survival.

    War is revolting. For it to be successful, it requires the full, or as close to full as possible, support of the entire nation. We elect our leaders to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States of America from all enemies foreign and domestic. They are not easy choices that our leaders have to make, anfd the critisism will be deafening in this time of instant media.

    So while we cannot teach patriotism, hell, we can't even allow teachers to have their classes recite the pledge, we can summon some sort of national pride and respect the efforts of your father and all the other million casualities over the years who did the dirty work so that we can have this conversation.

    One last thing: Another incredible image was theat of a small, beautiful, Japanese child sitting, trembling covered in ash while an American G.I. gives her a drink from his canteen.Tragic human side of war is something that can never be avoided no matter how hard we try........

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:54pm

33. No one feels worse that those who have to pull the trigger, no matter how well they've been traind. 'Collateral Damage', the unavoidable cost of war.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:55pm

34. No one feels worse that those who have to pull the trigger, no matter how well they've been trained. 'Collateral Damage', the unavoidable cost of war.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:57pm

35. We have to come to grips with these truths:

    - We cannot model other countries over us, or over what we want them to be.

    - Plurality of ideas, political and economic systems is about the best that can happen in the world.

    - War and force don't necessarily change the minds of a nation, less that of individuals.

    - As we are proud of being Americans, others are proud of being Afghans, Iraqis, Iranis, and even Cubans. Everybody holds its heritage to be sacred and we got to have absolute respect to this.

    - Every nation in the world resents the invasion of another Army and the occupation of its country.

    - Countries evolve and change - i.e. Vietnam and China- out of of their own maturation process. They look at other - mostly more advanced - countries compare and decide which is the socio political model that they wish to pursue.

    - Afghanistan will improve with education, 10 million of satellite dishes, infrastructure and the best legal economic alternatives to opium.

    - The rage of the Taliban people will not be quenched with our increasing our soldiers, on the contrary 16 year age children will join the Taliban when looking at our presence. It may if we get involved in what they may want us to do: i.e. irrigation projects, satellite educational TV (not propaganda!!!), roads, etc

    - We want the USA to be really loved and admired by other nations. It is not with force that will happen, but with our technical capacity to do things.

    - Finally, all the money wasted in these nonsensical, Quixotic adventures could be better used to help our people to get better access to health.

    Posted by Frank42 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:58pm

36. Sorry about the double post. My computer is acting strangely.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:58pm

37. but a few years ago i remember going to a grocery store around xmas and setting off some stupid motion sensor teddy bear in desert camo which proceeded to play that awful, maudlin, "god bless the USA" lee greenwood crap and it was all i could do to not grab it, stomp it into a pulp, and then pay for it.

    and dare some half wit to lecture me on patriotism...

    thank god for my fully developed frontal brain lobe...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 2:20pm

    Sorry it gives you that response. Whenever I hear that song, it brings tears of pride in country and goosebumps on my arms.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

38. We can't win it.

    1) Even though this is not the classic imperialist-style occupation, a certain paternalism is inevitable. Afghanistan is a culturally backwards society, otherwise the Taliban would never have been tolerated. No matter how well-intentioned our aims, our attempts to help build a functional civil society will fuel an inferiority complex, resentment, and a retreat into tribal primitivism.

    2) Karzai and Zardari have popularity ratings lower than OBLs. We are seen as props for both. By bribing the devout, but relatively safisticated, military of Pakistan into reluctantly fighting our wars, we are pushing that country towards the brink of collapse.

    3) No country can win against not only the collusion of the insanely unethical and untruthful Arab/Muslim media and the almost the entire Western MSM, but with our own government as top propagandist. You simply cannot put more American troops in harms way, even as Holder prepares to put America, and the WOT on trial at Ground Zero, practically begging for more attacks.

    Get the troops home and focus on helping the country survive the presidency of a man who is literally surrounded by unreconstructed Maoists whose goal is to parcel us out to our creditors and dismantle the Constitution. Fix the republican party, get back to TRUE free markets, and avoid the style deficiencies that enabled the Left to sneak in a manchurian candidate.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

39. - Every nation in the world resents the invasion of another Army and the occupation of its country.

    Tell that to France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Italy, Iraq and several other nations who appreciate our liberating them from tyrants.

    - Countries evolve and change - i.e. Vietnam and China- out of of their own maturation process. They look at other - mostly more advanced - countries compare and decide which is the socio political model that they wish to pursue.

    And they appreciate the billions in foreign aid we've sent them over the years. And let's not forget the Marshall Plan. Google it.

    - Afghanistan will improve with education, 10 million of satellite dishes, infrastructure and the best legal economic alternatives to opium.

    You just said, - We cannot model other countries over us, or over what we want them to be. Which is it?

    - The rage of the Taliban people will not be quenched with our increasing our soldiers, on the contrary 16 year age children will join the Taliban when looking at our presence......

    You don't understand the enemy. First they have to be defeated, then educated.

    - We want the USA to be really loved and admired by other nations. It is not with force that will happen, but with our technical capacity to do things.

    We have tried both depending upon the situation. No other country has contributed so much and sacrificed so much as the USA. Other countries will always have their hands out, even while they spit on and burn our flag.

    - Finally, all the money wasted in these nonsensical, Quixotic adventures could be better used to help our people to get better access to health.

    Nobody is denied health care in this country. The solution is to improve the system we already have, the best in the world.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:47pm

40. Posted by Frank42 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:58pm

    How about offering a list of all the things you like about America now. Start with your ability to participate in this discussion freely without having the goons knocking on your door.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:49pm

41. Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

    It does the same for me. Happy holidays to you and yours.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:50pm

42. Posted by gangpapist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

    Maybe Barack Obama can make a deal with the Taliban. They give us OBL and his gang and we withdraw and let the Afghani people fend for themselves like they've been doing since the biblical days. It sure looks like they haven't embraced western culture very much. They can easily re-enact the nativity scene and wouldn't even have to change clothes.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:55pm

43. 1) Even though this is not the classic imperialist-style occupation,

    •• PIPELINE!

    a certain paternalism is inevitable.

    •• you sound like the viceroy.

    Afghanistan is a culturally backwards society,

    •• MONSTER TRUCKS!

    otherwise the Taliban would never have been tolerated.

    •• many people don't, but they've got no choice. others look for any shelter from the chaos.

    No matter how well-intentioned our aims,

    •• why aren't "your" aims well intentioned at the emperor of kazakhstan?

    our attempts to help build a functional civil society will fuel an inferiority complex,

    •• we will not stop until there's a white-castle in every hamlet!

    resentment,

    •• yep.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2009 @ 3:56pm

44. and a retreat into tribal primitivism.

    •• you got that right, viceviceroy.

    Get the troops home and focus on helping the country survive the presidency of a man who is literally surrounded by unreconstructed Maoists whose goal is to parcel us out to our creditors and dismantle the Constitution. Fix the republican party, get back to TRUE free markets, and avoid the style deficiencies that enabled the Left to sneak in a manchurian candidate.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

    free markets? -- do you wish for laissez-faire traffic?

    maoists? -- that's very misguided. more like latte-fascists.

    republican party? -- PEPSI!

    manchurian? -- avoid clichés.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2009 @ 3:56pm

45. Tell that to France, Germany, Japan, Poland, Italy, Iraq and several other nations who appreciate our liberating them from tyrants.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:47p

    tell that to the ojibwa....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2009 @ 3:59pm

46. <i>Nobody is denied health care in this country.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:47pm </i>

    No matter what you believe about the public option v. private insurance, this statement is plainly false unless you mean "the government isn't actively denying anyone healthcare." Even then, it's open to argument.

    Posted by Thrawn at 11/21/2009 @ 4:01pm

47. Gunslinger,

    You are pathetic...you only believe in guns and money. That means that in essence you only believe in power and the imperialistic presence of the USA in the world.

    People like that do such because they are cowards. They believe that anyone that thinks differently is an enemy and has to be neutralized.

    Do you see those enemies in your sleep? Poor of you coward, get your gun and practice like Cheney to calm your nerves.

    The world is not America, it happens that America is just one more nation in the world. Not everything that America does is the best.,..hey as an example there is you and the Republican Party.

    And as of History....I can teach you whatever you wish to to....but I don't think you'll understand, you are just bang and bang.

    Posted by Frank42 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:02pm

48. But a real important question to ask is :

    does popularity inform morality?

    Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/21/2009 @ 2:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    According to progressive thinking, yes!

    On another site we have a progressive explaining how gravity is a social construct. All reality is a social construct. Therefore, morality is simply what is constructed by that particular society at any moment.

    Your stuck with your own academics. Sorry...

    Posted by sntauri at 11/21/2009 @ 4:10pm

49. Posted by Frank42 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:02pm

    Well, sorry to upset you so much but I'm not a republican. I'm an independent.

    Sorry, but there's not much you can teach me about history. That wasn't the German army that was was recieving the cheers of thousands of grateful peole in bombed out Europe. It was the American forces recieving the adulation of the masses.

    You've got me confused with someone else. I am grateful to be an American. I fully recognize all the good we've done over the years to better the living conditions of people worldwide.

    You can start with the Marshall Plan after WWII, continue with the Peace Corp and then understand what we've given the world with the technology of the internet. We;ve been able to do all of this, while liberating people, because we've maintained military strength and havwe had, for the most part, the cajones to use it.

    Don't tell me you are one of these pacifist types who can't stand the sight of blood.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:16pm

50. I'm in a feisty mood today. Anyone else?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:17pm

51. One thing I've learned since beginning to post my comments on this site, when you are disliked, you are making headway. So have at it. I'll defend my country 'till I'm blue in the face.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:19pm

52. 3. sanely redistributing wealth so as to assure a wealthy and sustainably consuming consumer class.

    Then you are a socialist, correct?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    no. i don not ascribe to any particular socialist set of ideas, nor do i consider myself a socialist. i consider myself a progressive conservative and admire folks like otto von bismark who were capable of seeing the forest despite the trees and pragmatically absorbing and making use of any good idea regardless of "ism" from which it was spawned.

    i love capitalism, but like my mom who i also love - pure laissez faire style capitalism is an imperfect vehicle, and not the only vision of the concept of capitalism.

    despite the fact that i LOVE capitalism, it IS quite unfair in many ways. this unfairness is inescapable, and too much will to fairness is ultimately destructive to capitalism itself.

    now some folks in this world LOVE THE MONEY. some love the money more than anything else, and some love other things like truth, family, art, knowledge, so on, more than anything else.

    being a kind soul, i do not begrudge an inordinate amount of wealth to those whose love for such is inordinately greater than most. if it makes ya happy...

    but...

    these folk, as valuable as they are for growing and creating wealth that is enjoyed by all, must also be shaken down from time to time because most seem not to realize that being wealthy costs money and without a healthy consumer class, the snake will eventually eat its own tail...

    bismark got it. he may not have loved the marching morons and happy-go-lucky schmuks of his country, nor even respected them nor even given much of a shit...

    except that he realized they were an integral part of his world...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:30pm

53. and that the economic well being of the wealthy was dependent upon the well being of the marching morons...

    so he stole some ideas from the socialists, made them german conservative ideas, and hoodwinked the average german schmuk into throwing his/her lot in with his social betters through two disasterous deathfests, ww1 and ww2...

    again...unintended negative outcome, but impressive indeed.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:33pm

54. #

    I'm in a feisty mood today. Anyone else?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    sorta...

    Sorry it gives you that response. Whenever I hear that song, it brings tears of pride in country and goosebumps on my arms.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    eh...different strokes for different folks i guess...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:34pm

55. eh...different strokes for different folks i guess...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:34pm

    I'd thank my lucky stars,

    to be livin here today.

    ‘ Cause the flag still stands for freedom,

    and they can't take that away.

    This is the one verse in that song that gives me pause however. Yes, our flag still stands for freedom, but if we are not careful and pay more attention to who we elect as our leaders, it CAN be taken away. A President has to have the intestinal fortitude to be able to pull the trigger. If he doesn't it will be he on the recieving end, (symbolically). We can not afford to go all weak in the knees, especially while we are fighting an ememy that has pledged to destroy us.

    Nobody likes war, especially those who have to fight them. Yes it may be good for the defense contractors but If we didn't have these contractors, who would supply us with the munitions and armaments that we would need to protect our people, freedoms and our way of life.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:48pm

56. Hey gunslinger: Thanks for the "flag" lyrics and the moral guidance. All hail the piece of cloth!!!

    Don't you bet the Afghanistan people have their own version of that song? If a foreign army invaded the USA, whose side would you be on?

    Posted by Citizen54 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:50pm

57. "Don't tell me you are one of these pacifist types who can't stand the sight of blood."

    So you do stand the sight of blood....come on tell the truth that you even like it and are kind of a vampire relative and that is why you are for all wars.... to be honest with that philosophy you need to shed yours.

    The Marshall plan, ha. Do you know something about our national debt? We owe money to mostly all the world now. And one reason is our level of consumption, the other is your wars.

    As for republican, independent, probably teapartier, I don't care. I only care that with people like you, the US has no chance.

    Posted by Frank42 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:51pm

58. Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:48pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    "A President has to have the intestinal fortitude to be able to pull the trigger."

    yeah, but he also has to have the intestinal fortitude to resist the urge to use force if not the best answer and intellectual acumen to discern when force is needed.

    easier said than done.

    my view of the flag, which i've saluted more than a few times, is that its a piece of colored cloth which symbolically represents a nation. my nation. i find too much teary eyed emotion in regard to it a bit silly - sometimes pretentious, sometimes indicative of a concrete objective mode of thinking...

    my response to flag burners, for example, is to ignore them. they want attention, you know? why give it to them??? lol...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:54pm

59. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:54pm

    Like you said, 'eh...different strokes for different folks i guess...'

    I guess your sense of history is very different from mine.

    Oh, and I know that a President must have the intestinal fortitude to resist pulling the trigger but when the country has been attacked, there really is no choice. In either scenerio, he had better be prepared to live with the consequences.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:06pm

60. by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 12:40pm @ 1:28pm @ 1:36pm @ 1:37pm @ 1:54pm @ 2:10pm @ 2:13pm @ 2:37pm @ 2:15pm @ 2:54pm @ 2:55pm @ 2:57pm @ 2:58pm @ 3:47pm @ 3:49pm @ 3:50pm @ 3:55pm @ 4:17pm @ 4:19pm @ 4:19pm @ 4:48pm...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMMp_llzBT4

    Posted by ttr at 11/21/2009 @ 5:08pm

61. Posted by ttr at 11/21/2009 @ 5:08pm | ignore this person

    Awesome, I assume that Bill is supposed to sybollize anyone who challanges the U.S. (Al Qaeda), and the cowpoke is the U.S. who is faster and quicker on the draw. Is that about right. Coming from Johnny Cash, it must be. Pretty cool.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:17pm

62. I'll defend my country 'till I'm blue in the face.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:19pm

    I'd much rather you turn red.....:~), and even then, do so minimally!

    As members of the `opposition' here, our smallish Band of Brothers (we've lost the one female old-timer sometime this year, a black nurse in Atlanta aka "ACook") need stamina....so take care not to let your blood pressure rise....they are loons after all!

    Posted by Happy at 11/21/2009 @ 5:19pm

63. Posted by Happy at 11/21/2009 @ 5:19pm

    Oh I know that. I'm just having fun here killing time. I know that this is such a far left website that it borders on being Communistic, so relax. The guys and gals doing the fighting don't need you or I to defend them from these cusses. They can handle things pretty well themselves. And keep in mind that I am an independent. I don't agree with everything that republicans do either.

    Happy Holidays to you and yours.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:24pm

64. Time for dinner.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:25pm

65. #

    Time for dinner.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    agreed in full...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 5:34pm

66. Bush used to say "We will only accept peace with honor." Continuing a war based on this concept is insane.

    Posted by koroviev at 11/21/2009 @ 10:50pm

67. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2009 @ 4:33pm

    You mean the Welfare State Ibbie? Not so sure he stole much from the socialists. in fact this little gem tells us what those on that side think of the WS:

    "Socialists and Marxists criticize welfare state programs as concessions made by the capitalist class in order to divert the working class and middle class away from wanting to pursue a completely new socialist organization of the economy and society, as it had been historically used for in Germany by Bismarck along with his anti-socialist laws."

    "Furthermore, socialists believe it is an attempt to "patch up" the ineffective capitalist market economy and proves that capitalism does not work effectively. By implementing state or public ownership of the means of production, socialists believe there will be no need for a welfare state.[17]" Wiki more here:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welfare_state

    So as I suggested to some wild man/women on another thread, when thinking about Europe, that a Welfare State is not a Socialist State but in fact quite the opposite when it is the brainchild of capitalist lovers like Bismark.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/22/2009 @ 12:49am

68. It amazes me that people who purport to think still make statements about getting back to a free market economy, as though that's going to help anyone.

    Look, we HAD a totally free, survival-of-the-fittest economy from the Garden of Eden, if you believe in that, or the beginning of trading, all the way up to the start of the labor movements in the late 1800's.

    HOW MUCH WEALTH TRICKLED DOWN?????

    HOW MANY MILLIONS OF JOBS WERE CREATED?????

    Give me a break. Free market economies concentrate wealth in the hands of a tiny minority, leaving everyone else in deep impoverishment and powerlessness.

    You guys just think YOU will be in the former group when it all shakes out. Lemme clue you in on something: you'll be in grinding poverty with the rest of the grunts.

    Your knee-jerk reaction to socialism is just flat-out stoopid.

    A free market economy DEPENDS on being able to expand your market. A global economy PREVENTS expansion of markets, because there's nowhere left to go. Duh.

    On an international/global level, capitalism and market 'control' are a complete FAILURE. I reiterate: a complete FAILURE!!!

    Posted by DavidBodhi at 11/22/2009 @ 07:19am

69. DavidBodhi, WORD!

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/22/2009 @ 08:51am

70. Today JFK wil be dead the same precise time he was alive at 1:pm cst, 1pm est. That wa s the time four investigations against LBJ ceased,who would put combat troops in Vietnam,overriding Jack's N.S.A.M. 263's withdrawl,prefering human silo elongation deployment for pleausre,Dq Hoover did not,and would not be forced to retire, the FED would retain its power, the CIA would not be "splintered and cast to the winds", the oil oligrachy would retian its depletion allowance, the mob would no longer b epursued with such vigor the steel tax would die, the KKK wouldny cry, and the fact thatIsrael would receive nuclear weapons and money, is real.

    Posted by G.H.W.B. at 11/22/2009 @ 09:19am

71. Antisocialist.......you have picked a great user name.....dedinition.... is ....shunning contact with others....Please maintain that status!

    Posted by toomuch at 11/22/2009 @ 09:55am

72. Antisocialist.......you have picked a great user name.....dedinition.... is ....shunning contact with others....Please maintain that status!

    Posted by toomuch at 11/22/2009 @ 09:55am

    And you also with your name suggesting that you have too much brainwashing to be able to think for yourself

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/22/2009 @ 11:08am

73. Most important TV program in decades, bar none.

    Don't miss it.

    Posted by sloper at 11/22/2009 @ 12:31pm

74. It amazes me that people who purport to think still make statements about getting back to a free market economy, as though that's going to help anyone.

    Look, we HAD a totally free, survival-of-the-fittest economy from the Garden of Eden, if you believe in that, or the beginning of trading, all the way up to the start of the labor movements in the late 1800's.

    HOW MUCH WEALTH TRICKLED DOWN?????

    HOW MANY MILLIONS OF JOBS WERE CREATED?????

    Give me a break. Free market economies concentrate wealth in the hands of a tiny minority, leaving everyone else in deep impoverishment and powerlessness.

    Posted by DavidBodhi at 11/22/2009 @ 07:19am

    "Free Markets" don't yet exist on a global scale. Various countries get closer to the free market ideal by engaging in bi and multi-lateral Free Trade Agreements.

    There is little doubt that except for those observers who view the world from under the bed or from deep inside a cave, literal or in the mind, the substantial freeing up of international trade has created many millions of factory jobs for former subsistence farmers in China and that is beginning to happen in India as it also is the beneficiary of freer access to global markets.

    For those interested in what happens outside their cave the recent APEC summit in Singapore gives an insight into how former state controlled economies view "free trade". China and Russia along with Mexico put pressure on the US to get serious about "free trade" instead of hiding behind trade barriers such as tariffs. So if you are an American your current problems are not the result of free trade but rather of a poorly regulated financial industry.

    The advantage that the American poor get from free trade is a higher standard of living as the result of cheap imports from China etc.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/22/2009 @ 12:41pm

75. lrjones4: There's just one little problem with your analysis. Free trade is bankrupting this nation.

    Declining wages caused by off-shoring and outsourcing spurred irresponsible borrowing and lending in this country. Without the irresponsible lending our GDP would have been in decline long ago.

    Now that the lending has screeched to a halt, even more jobs have been lost because of declines in consumer spending. Low wages have undermined our domestic economy.

    It is perverse to care more about foreign economies than for our own people. You free traders are fucked in the head.

    Posted by Buddy33 at 11/22/2009 @ 1:33pm

76. Posted by koroviev at 11/21/2009 @ 10:50pm

    Oh really? And what's the alternative? Dishonor? Subserviance?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/22/2009 @ 1:50pm

77. Posted by lrjones4 at 11/22/2009 @ 12:49am | ignore this person | warn this person

    BING BING BING!!!!

    ideology is the tool of the true uberman. the uberman, by definition, is not a tool of any ideology...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/22/2009 @ 2:23pm

78. Declining wages.....spurred irresponsible borrowing and lending in this country.....

    Now that the lending has screeched to a halt, even more jobs have been lost because of declines in consumer spending. Low wages have undermined our domestic economy.

    Posted by Buddy33 at 11/22/2009 @ 1:33pm

    Hey, Buddy....try these mind-stretchers:

    A) Declining Fed. revenues (= Gubber "wages") .....spurred irresponsible borrowing and lending in this country....

    Next,

    B) Since "lending" has NOT screeched to a halt, as lending to Uncle Sam is alive and well, can you explain why "even more jobs have been lost"?

    Posted by Happy at 11/22/2009 @ 2:25pm

79. I am all for the concept of capitalism but the truth of the matter is it does not exist in this country.In this country most of are services and consumer goods are controlled by a monopolized few.They control the markets they exist in and make it virtually impossible for others to compete in industry.Also with their domination of their niche in the market they use incredible influence to aquire multiple lobbyists to fight for their self interests.I believe if these titans are not broken up to allow others to compete this will be the downfall of our democracy.

    Posted by tes42 at 11/22/2009 @ 3:04pm

80. It is perverse to care more about foreign economies than for our own people. You free traders are fucked in the head.

    Posted by Buddy33 at 11/22/2009 @ 1:33pm

    I'm from Australia and we are committed "free traders" and at present the country is again going gangbusters. It is one of the leading economies in terms of GDP growth right now. Our main trading partners, Japan and China, are also committed free traders and it hasn't hurt them either.

    Why? Yes the GFC was a hiccup but Australia did not engage in feral lending practices as did your country and some European (the Brits particularly) countries.

    Our banking sector is rated very highly internationally and that confirms my suggestion that your problem is not free trade but rather poor lending practices and inadequately backed securities trading.

    Whatever or whoever you choose to blame for your own failures you are going to have to learn to live and proper in a world where free trading and some sort of capitalism will be the paradigm for decades to come. So stop whinging, put the tissues away, get off your arse and show the rest of the world that Americans have still got what it takes to mix it with the best. The world doesn't owe you a living.

    And who knows you might even be able to afford a bit more social welfare like other free market capitalistic societies like Australia enjoy (hey Ibbie). Certainly socialism won't do it. That failed economic philosophy is gone, gone, gone, long since gone down the drain of history.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/22/2009 @ 3:54pm

81. In this country most of are services and consumer goods are controlled by a monopolized few....

    Posted by tes42 at 11/22/2009 @ 3:04pm

    Let's see.....

    So you have only one or two barbers to choose from.

    One or two auto repair shops.

    One or two cell phone choices.....

    One or two auto makers.....

    One or two doctors/dentists to choose from.....

    One or two computers......beyond just HP & Apple....

    Digital cameras......beyond just Cannon & Kodak...

    LCD TVs.....beyond just Samsun and Vizio

    Music labels.......

    Movies beyond just Michael Moore and Spielberg........

    Beer beyond just Miller and AnBeve...

    Soft drinks....beyond just Coke and Pepsi....

    You do know, by now, you're one stupid MoFo?

    Posted by Happy at 11/22/2009 @ 3:56pm

82. to live and (proper) in a .. try prosper.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/22/2009 @ 3:57pm

83. Excellent recall by Bill Moyers. the only critical comparison he left out is that both the Vietnam & Afhan invasions were/are Imperialist ventures from the get-go(i.e., defense of the USA global hegemony). Hence, neither war had the urgency of any "national defense" purposes. Also, as in Vietnam, giving the locals a few crumbs of reconstruction projects cannot offset the collateral damage of a much larger and deadly military occupation.

    Posted by DLi at 11/22/2009 @ 4:15pm

84. What will Obama do in Afghanistan? Only his hair dresser knows for sure.

    Seriously, Obama does not run anything--he's a look good ,feel good,hopeful kind of a guy who works for Wall Street and the Pentagon. He's a good cop to George Bush's bad cop.

    As such ,we'll leave Afghanistan, et. al. when the gas and oil run dry.

    Posted by hkaplan at 11/22/2009 @ 5:03pm

85. ..and one more thing--Vietnam has/had tons of rice and water buffaloes; Afghanistan has energy--oil and gas--transmission lines that we worry about.

    Posted by hkaplan at 11/22/2009 @ 5:06pm

86. ..and one more thing--Vietnam has/had tons of rice and water buffaloes; Afghanistan has energy--oil and gas--transmission lines that we worry about.

    Posted by hkaplan at 11/22/2009 @ 5:06pm

    You have to quit paying attention to far left conspiracy sites.

    There are no oil or gas pipelines now or in the foreseeable future in or through Afghanistan

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/22/2009 @ 6:09pm

87. Bill Moyers show this Sunday was the best hour of Television I've seen in a very long time.

    Posted by underoath at 11/23/2009 @ 01:27am

88. There are no oil or gas pipelines now or in the foreseeable future in or through Afghanistan

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/22/2009 @ 6:09pm

    About par for the course Liberty. If there are no ulterior American motives they simply make them up.

    Wouldn't like to buy a used car from any of them.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/23/2009 @ 03:48am

89. I am no expert on Vietnam, but the United States pulled out of that war, and now from everything I hear, Vietnam is doing fine. Vietnam probably would have reached its current level of openness and prosperity years earlier if it hadn't been for our malicious meddling there. Let's be smart and get out of Afghanistan now and work with whatever government rushes in to fill the power vacuum. There will be some serious short term pain, but in a few decades, the Afghan people will thank us for having given them a real chance to solve their problems their way.

    Posted by raaustin at 11/23/2009 @ 07:36am

90. Whenever I hear that song ("God Bless The USA"), it brings tears of pride in country and goosebumps on my arms. Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 3:41pm

    It does the same for me. Happy holidays to you and yours. Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 3:50pm

    I bet there were true blue, lovable Nazis who, just like you, wept tears of pride when they heard "Die Fahne hoch" At least the Nazis had better taste in music.

    Posted by raaustin at 11/23/2009 @ 07:52am

91. Afghanistan is going to be Obama's Vietnam.There is no doubt about it.

    Posted by Dastu11 at 11/23/2009 @ 09:35am

92. The sooner he can bring himself to that realization, the sooner the war on terror can be won. Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 12:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --who's surrendering for it to be "won"?

    Posted by urmygyro at 11/23/2009 @ 10:12am

93. These people are like little mice running around the legs of an elephant, annoying the shit out of him while he tries to protect them.

    --so democrats are mice and republicans remain elephants...so in this analogy it's obvious you're the ass.

    Where is the patriotism, the honor, the anger at those who would try to wipe out our way of life.

    --saddam hussein was not trying to wipe out our way of life...unless not just handing over free oil counts.

    The people who are complaining now and are trying to sway Obama to get out of Afghanistan before the war is won

    --who has to surrender for it to be won?

    , are the same people who blame America for the attacks on the towers and the Pentagon.

    --wrong. nice try punk.

    They are the same people who would spit in the face of a returning war hero because he had to fight for their right to do so.

    --you're the only one spitting.

    It's truly sickening and I cannot for the life of me see any reason why this publication and others like it can do what they do every day and still call themselves Americans.

    --you're either with me...or against us.

    Dissent in a time of war is perfectly ok under our Constitution but it is definitely not the honorable thing to do while we have our sons and daughters in harms way.

    --how can it be "perfectly ok" AND "not...honorable" at the same time? You're a moron. you're a dangerous idiot.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/20

    Posted by urmygyro at 11/23/2009 @ 10:18am

94. I know that most Americans feel the way that I do. The proof is in the ratings both for talk radio and for Fox News. Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --another explanation is you guys need to have constant reinforcement of how you feel--and have more free time in which to get that reinforcement.

    Posted by urmygyro at 11/23/2009 @ 10:21am

95. 3. sanely redistributing wealth so as to assure a wealthy and sustainably consuming consumer class. Then you are a socialist, correct? Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 2:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --you're a "socialist" in that you expect the American military to "protect freedom" in the world.

    Posted by urmygyro at 11/23/2009 @ 10:23am

96. Nichols provides an excellent assessment of Moyres excellent program.

    Moyers Journal on this 'eve of probable destruction' provides an excellent history lesson, that would remind George Santayana himself "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it". But even if Obama has learned 'from history' he does not have the power to act on his knowledge.

    This "Moyers Journal" TV show reinforces in a more emmotive manner what I already have learned from history --- that our country was already an Empire those 46 years ago, once JFK was out of the way --- that since Vietnam the Empire that hides behind America has only entrenched itself, now in the 21st century, as a truly Global ruling-elite corporate/financial Empire by hiding behind the facade of a two-party 'Vichy' sham of democracy, in which an insidious combination of accumulated elitist wealth, corporatist media, and gutless complicit politicians have led the world to the economic, environmental, and militarist death-spiral in which we are trapped today.

    Unless a new Global People's Movement (qua Revolution) can confront this Global EMPIRE, our future path will make the inevitable path that Moyers so well documents in Vietnam look like a walk in the park.

    The biggest lie of omission during the ramp-up to Vietnam which Moyers "Journal" does not recount, and which none of the anguished phone conversations of the principals reveals is the omission that it was not circumstances. or ideology, or the threat of 'communism' that led to the disaster of that last dress rehearsal in the Vietnam War --- but that the causal factor, the seminal driver of all our sorrows was (and still is) EMPIRE.

    Alan MacDonald Sanford, Maine

    Posted by amacd at 11/23/2009 @ 10:39am

97. I'm fucked in the head. Posted by Buddy33 at 11/22/2009 @ 1:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Posted by emile duBois at 11/23/2009 @ 1:42pm

98. As such ,we'll leave Afghanistan, et. al. when the gas and oil run dry. Posted by hkaplan at 11/22/2009 @ 5:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    your ignorance is showing

    Afghanistan's significance to the balance of energy and power in Central Asia stems from its geographical position as a potential transit route for oil and natural gas exports from Central Asia to the Arabian Sea.

    Posted by emile duBois at 11/23/2009 @ 1:48pm

99. But of course you are.....w/my blessings.......you're good w/me...it's because of Obamabots like you, I know conservatism is coming back in a big way and my kids' generation will have learned the same lessons I learned with Reagan!

    Power to Magic....may he stay a Ditherer!

    Posted by Happy at 11/21/2009

    Too bad you have failed to learn any lessons from the catastrophe that the Reagan era produced. The current economic meltdown is the end result of the simpleton, self-serving ideology of all the short sighted fools incapable of reading a good history book. ("Government is not the solution" my ass; where did all the monies in all the 401k's of America's working and middle class go?)

    Posted by mtspence05 at 11/23/2009 @ 6:02pm

100. And those ignorant of the history will continue committing the mistakes of the past.

     A couple of weeks or so back Bill pointed out that a draft (a draft sans exceptions like the deferments that allowed so many "gung-ho" types to dodge the conflict in Vietnam) would dampen the calls for an escalation in Afghanistan. You feel Pres. Obama is "dithering"? Fine, sign your daughter, son, nieces and nephews up and ship them on over to prop up a corrupt, failing government. The problem requires a political solution, not more troops.

     (And all the fools that think we've "won" in Iraq: just wait until we're out and the competing interests both inside and outside Iraq begin fighting for control.)

     Posted by mtspence05 at 11/23/2009 @ 7:26pm

101. As usual, John Nichols tells the entire story on both sides. I do want to comment on our war as it fits into the history of wars. Remember the draft? Young men who had 'plans' for their lives suddenly realized they could lose their lives in war, in a country they new little about. Their attentions were spurred to know more about where they might die and the people they would surely kill. Suddenly, over night , a day did not pass with out a story about Vietnam on the nightly news. Soon calls to end this war were loud and overwhelming.

     You start a draft, and a war tax and suddenly this war of no purpose will be in everyone's face. Ignoring its cost in lives, dollars and weight of sacrifice will no longer be a mystery to most Americans. Bill Moyers knows the parallel between Vietnam and todays soldiering sources. Once again the poor are the soldiers for the rich. Send in the rich boys and girls and soon this war will end.

     Posted by prairiepress at 11/24/2009 @ 10:03am

102. Send in the rich boys and girls and soon this war will end. Posted by prairiepress at 11/24/2009 @ 10:03am | ignore this person | warn this person

     like we did during the Vietnam war, right?

     Posted by emile duBois at 11/24/2009 @ 10:56am