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RedditThe Senate healthcare bill unveiled Wednesday night by Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, is not exactly the cure for all of what ails America.
But the 2,074-page document significantly expands access to medical care for Americans who currently lack coverage, contains a modest public option, bars discrimination by insurers against Americans with pre-existing medical conditions and gets remarkably good marks from the Congressional Budget Office.
In many respects, Reid's "Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act" is a better bill than the House measure.
And it one respect, it is dramatically better.
The Senate plan does not contain the draconian "Stupak" language, which was written into the House bill with the intent of establishing radical new limits on access to reproductive health services.
As part of negotiations to secure passage of the House healthcare reform bill, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California, agreed to a vote on an amendment by Congressman Bart Stupak, D-Michigan, that did not merely forbid a government-run "public option" from covering abortion services. It also barred private insurance plans that might participate in the exchange set up by the new program from doing so.
Republicans in the House aligned with 64 Democrats to attach the radical anti-abortion language to the bill, which was then passed by a narrow 220-215 margin.
Reid rejects the Stupak language.
That does not mean that his measure is a pro-choice bonanza.
It preserves existing limits on public-funding of abortions. But, as part of the exchange set up by the bill, families and individuals who participate in the new program could purchase insurance plans that provide abortion coverage.
"We're basically going to keep current law, which is what we ought to do," says Massachusetts Senator John Kerry, a pro-choice Democrat who participated in the session where Reid unveiled the Senate measure.
The current law is defined by the Hyde amendment, a measure named for former Illinois Congressman Henry Hyde that was approved in 1976. The Hyde amendment prohibits federal money from paying for abortions except in cases or rape or incest or instances where a woman's life is endangered.
The National Organization for Women has described the Stupak Amendment as "Hyde on Steroids."
Several Democratic senators whose support will be essential if this bill is to have a chance of being enacted in its current form, including opponents of abortion rights such as Pennsylvania Democrat Bob Casey, have indicated that they would be willing to vote for a measure that maintains the constraints established by Hyde -- even if the Stupak provisions are removed. That's good news for Reid, who is still struggling to wrangle up 60 votes in order to get the debate started.
If the Senate passes the bill as written by the majority leader -- and that remains a big "if" -- the Senate and House measures will then have to be reconciled in a conference committee involving key leaders from both chambers.
The final compromise would likely maintain the Hyde amendment but not go as far as Stupak proposed.
That would be a win for pro-choice forces, which have made elimination of the Stupak language a high priority.
The fight over abortion rights would continue in the House, however, as Pelosi built her majority there by drawing in a number of anti-choice representatives who said they backed the House bill because it included the Stupak language. Stupak bluntly declares that, if the legislation that comes back to the House does not include his amendment, "healthcare will not move forward."
Pelosi will have her work cut out for her. And she will, unquestionably, need an assist from the White House.
In other words, while the Senate may clean up some of the mess, it will take a major intervention by President Obama to wrangle the votes needed to pass a healthcare reform bill that maintains existing rules with regard to abortion.
Of course, the right health care reform bill would go much further and say that women have a right to all safe and legal medical services -- be they provided as part of a public plan or by a private insurer.
Not even the most ardent backers of abortion rights are hoping to achieve that ideal, however.
For good reason, they will be pleased to get rid of the Stupak language -- as Reid's action represents a win for those who have been campaigning to keep it out of the Senate proposal.
That's a compromise position for those who would prefer that healthcare reform be done right. But its hardly the only compromise that will be asked of real reformers as they approach a Senate bill that, like its House counterpart, falls far short of the change that is needed but could end up being the change that is possible -- and acceptable.
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John Nichols
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NICHOLS: "......is not exactly the cure for all of what ails America."
Wrong boiler plate, John!
Posted by Happy at 11/18/2009 @ 10:08pm
You can get instant full medical coverage at the lowest price from http://bit.ly/39pFJx
Posted by veronicabenn19 at 11/18/2009 @ 10:12pm
Speaking of women's health care, why is The Nation dodging the Feds announcement that women should wait till age 50 to get a mammogram. In light of the right's "paranoia" about rationing, this is by far, the WORST blunder, the admin has made. Luckily for them they have a compliant media, but the medical profession has taken notice, and it's not just the tea partiers making hay.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/18/2009 @ 10:57pm
As is the House bill, this version is DOA...as America would do if given the choice.
It contains no health care reform, no tort reform, and no competition needed for health care costs to come down..
and this bill should be aborted.
Therefore, the Dems will pass it, celebrate it, and like the writers of The Nation, will never use it nor let their children or the ones they love near it.
And they will cheer it in a big public celebration with the media cheering like a choir for the preacher.
And we, who know better, who have taken the steps with choices to get educated and prepared for our future, to avoid this like a dose of the shits mixed in wiith the clap..will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon. And we will remove our funds and abilities..off shore and travel to Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA.
Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
As is the House bill, this version is DOA...as America would do if given the choice.
It contains no health care reform, no tort reform, and no competition needed for health care costs to come down..
and this bill should be aborted.
Therefore, the Dems will pass it, celebrate it, and like the writers of The Nation, will never use it nor let their children or the ones they love near it.
And they will cheer it in a big public celebration with the media cheering like a choir for the preacher.
And we, who know better, who have taken the steps with choices to get educated and prepared for our future, to avoid this like a dose of the shits mixed in wiith the clap..will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon. And we will remove our funds and abilities..off shore and travel to Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA.
Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
Speaking of women's health care, why is The Nation dodging the Feds announcement that women should wait till age 50 to get a mammogram. In light of the right's "paranoia" about rationing, this is by far, the WORST blunder, the admin has made. Luckily for them they have a compliant media, but the medical profession has taken notice, and it's not just the tea partiers making hay. Posted by gangpapist at 11/18/2009 @ 10:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--you're an expert on mammography now?
Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm
And we, who know better, who have taken the steps with choices to get educated and prepared for our future, to avoid this like a dose of the shits mixed in wiith the clap..will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon. And we will remove our funds and abilities..off shore and travel to Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA. Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--you tell 'em auntjomamma!
why don't you get a head start and move to costa rica or thailand now?
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 12:00am
Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm
Read the Fed's own justification. 1900 to 1 vs. 1300 to 1 for women over 50. The "experts" are already reeling. Even Sebelius is backtracking.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:21am
Read the Fed's own justification. 1900 to 1 vs. 1300 to 1 for women over 50. The "experts" are already reeling. Even Sebelius is backtracking. Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:21am | ignore this person | warn this person
what's the 1900-1 vs 1300-1 mean?
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 12:42am
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/
man......
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/19/2009 @ 12:44am
http://www.chinahush.com/2009/10/21/amazing-pictures-pollution-in-china/ man...... Posted by frosty zoom at 11/19/2009 @ 12:44am | ignore this person | warn this person
--industrial revolution. the u.s. 100 years ago.
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 12:49am
The stinking heap that is the Demoncrat slashing of American healthcare bill is destined for the garbage heap of history!
Higher premiums, tax increases and Medicare cuts to pay for more government. The American people know that is not reform and does not even give a nod to elements that would be required to actually "reform" runaway costs legal or otherwise.
Reid has spent weeks merging two versions of the bill that passed out of two separate Senate committees.
It has been drafted with the White House behind closed doors, and kept secret from Republicans, the American taxpayers, and even most Demoncrats as is the habit of this Demoncrat socialist cabal that inhabits D.C. now!
They had to LIE to get this mess out of the house and if return will never pass the smell test!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/19/2009 @ 03:06am
Posted by gangpapist at 11/18/2009 @ 10:57pm | Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm |
GP is upset because someone mentioned not checking boobs and YJM wants tort reform.
Does YJM know that ~2% of healthcare costs, max, are attributable to tort action, MediMal premiums, etc?
If he claims that we can avoid $1T in tests, will GP get mad about it?
Will either path reduce the cost of a mammogram?
So many 'choices'.
Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:21am |
"Read the Fed's own justification. 1900 to 1 vs. 1300 to 1 for women over 50. The 'experts' are already reeling. Even Sebelius is backtracking."
Its a stupid maneuver...mammograms are such an obvious save-a-life for a few bucks medical advancement that they should have been sacrosanct.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/19/2009 @ 04:48am
man...... Posted by frosty zoom at 11/19/2009 @ 12:44am |
-- --industrial revolution. the u.s. 100 years ago. Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 12:49am |
-- They had to LIE to get this mess out of the house and if return will never pass the smell test! Posted by BigPasture at 11/19/2009 @ 03:06am |
This 'Great Leap Forward'...stinks.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/19/2009 @ 04:50am
--you're an expert on mammography now?
Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm
Are you implying that you are an expert, gyro?
For years and years and years now we have been told by politicians of both parties that prevention and early detection were the crucial keys into savings on healthcare. Now they want women to put off mammograms by 10 years. If you can't see what's happening here then there is absolutely no hope for you what-so-ever. This is how politicians will save $$ on health care expenses. THIS IS HOW RATIONING BEGINS.
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am
"As is the House bill, this version is DOA...as America would do if given the choice. "----Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
Maasch has made a prediction....
means Obama will be signing it before end of January. heheh
"Mask, I never changed my opinion...I still believe she is the candidate...the math? (Remember, she is supported by the teachers unions, is she not?) It doesn't matter..we are talking the Clintons here and the Democratic Party.
Hillary will be it."-----Posted by JOMAMMA at 04/29/2008
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 07:31am
THIS IS HOW RATIONING BEGINS.
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
Or, it could be a good thing. Progress in medical knowledge. Unfortunately this kind of statisical "new understanding" of disease isn't as sexy as "cure".
More unfortunately it does have the optics of molasses for the HC debate right now and has been politically hijacked.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 08:09am
For years and years and years now we have been told by politicians of both parties that prevention and early detection were the crucial keys into savings on healthcare. Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
oooh. don't listen to politicos if you're sick.
early detection may be just a teenie bit hyped: i guarantee you'll find cancer in my prostate if you stick the needle in there enough times. Then someone sells me a drug.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 08:15am
Then someone sells me a drug. Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 08:15am | ignore this person | warn this person
--there's the key part!
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 08:28am
Or, it could be a good thing. Progress in medical knowledge. Unfortunately this kind of statisical "new understanding" of disease isn't as sexy as "cure".
More unfortunately it does have the optics of molasses for the HC debate right now and has been politically hijacked.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 08:09am
I suppose Blair, if you choose to view it that way. I'm a lot more skepticle. We are talking about Washington D.C. here and the "shit-for-brains" politicians who currently inhabit the place. And currently the #1 S-f-B is Obama himself, closely followed by Pelosi, Reid, and Biden.
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 08:36am
I suppose Blair, if you choose to view it that way. I'm a lot more skepticle. We are talking about Washington D.C. here and the "shit-for-brains" politicians who currently inhabit the place. And currently the #1 S-f-B is Obama himself, closely followed by Pelosi, Reid, and Biden. Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 08:36am | ignore this person |
--did you speak this way of Bush and his people when he was in office? methinks not.
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 08:44am
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 08:36am
Curious, on health care, why do you trust Humana, Wellpoint, Blue Cross...
more than people you elect to high office?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 08:52am
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 08:52am
Mask, don't you know, because they care. They all went into the Health Insurance because of a calling to serve the public good. Profits are only secondary.
Posted by !immutable at 11/19/2009 @ 09:09am
--you're an expert on mammography now?
Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm
Are you implying that you are an expert, gyro?
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am
Maybe it's a typo in his handle. It was supposed to be urmygyno.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 11/19/2009 @ 09:14am
--you're an expert on mammography now? Posted by urmygyro at 11/18/2009 @ 11:58pm Are you implying that you are an expert, gyro? Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am
Maybe it's a typo in his handle. It was supposed to be urmygyno. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 11/19/2009 @ 09:14am | ignore this person | warn this person
--I want to give you credit for a good zinger, I do...but OBGYNs aren't experts in mammography...I will give you credit for an attempted zinger though...kudos!
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 09:32am
i support single payer, so any cobbled together junk that falls short of that goal will be a disappointment to me.
if we have a half ass bill, though, that fixes some problems and provides a public option, i'll take it.
if it funds only abortions in the case of rape, incest, or danger to mother's life...fine...i'll take it for now.
i certainly hope it will not be puritanical in regard to pregnancy prevention, though...
on a personal level i am not all torn up because women who should know better and be more responsible, choose to have irresponsible sex and have to get an abortion to avoid the nasty lifestyle complication of the biological purpose of having sex.
sure the men should be more responsible too, but that's a pretty hollow statement for the knocked up woman gnashing her teeth at the irresponsibility of the deadbeat sperm donor...
unfortunately those who need abortions most - the moron producing moron, are those least likely to seek one while those most likely to produce intelligent offspring are the most likely to seek abortion.
private abortion friendly groups should concentrate on providing abortion support to poor, moronic breeders en masse, while any new health care plan includes plenty of birth prevention to all.
however wealth is certainly no sure indicator of woman or man having any more sense than desperately poor springer style bottom breeders of either gender.
just heard a young woman from a ridiculously wealthy family babble about wanting to trip on lsd while birthing a child out of wedlock.
get a cat...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 09:42am
And we, who know better, who have taken the steps with choices to get educated and prepared for our future, to avoid this like a dose of the shits mixed in wiith the clap..will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon. And we will remove our funds and abilities..off shore and travel to Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA.
Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
I would respond to that if I could. Sounds like JoHOmama is taking lessons in sentence structure and comprehension from Sarah Palin.. Either that or very deep in his cups.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/19/2009 @ 09:45am
Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
Love it or leave it, John, love it or leave it.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/19/2009 @ 09:50am
I see the Senate took the poop cake batter from the house, tasted it, and decided it needed a little more poop. So now they will discuss the recipe on the floor of the Senate. A dash of this, a dash of that.
Then they will bake it to perfection and present the people with a fully cooked ready to eat healthcare "Shit Cake." Replete with candles and frosting. They will elegantly place the slices on the governments finest china (paid for by taxpayers)and serve it expertly to the American People.
They will watch intently as the taxpayers sample their finest creation...
The American People will gingerly nibble a small piece.. spit it out and declare...
"This is a Fucking Shit Cake!"
Posted by chaoszen at 11/19/2009 @ 10:02am
Posted by !immutable at 11/19/2009 @ 09:09am
"Profits?..What the heck? How did those get there? We weren't expecting to make any profits off of people's health care. What a stroke of luck! Guess it goes to show, when you strive to help people and do right by them (except for the ones we had to deny coverage to)....fortune smiles on you in unexpected ways!"
heheh
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 10:07am
Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA.
Posted by YourJomamma at 11/18/2009 @ 11:26pm
costa rica has a single payer health care system that results in a population with a lifespan comparable to us. hell, they eve pay to send some folks to the US if needed, or used to...
and costa rica is a puny little third world bannaa republic (actually i love the place and it is a shining example of decency and responsibility in this world - i was being facetious).
hell, MAASCH, you can even get that horrible "takin' all yer money fer deadbeats" socialized medical care down there for nest to nuthin even IF YER NOT A CITIZEN!!! EVEN IF YOU NEVER PAID A SINGLE RED COLON INTO THE SYSTEM!!!!
so yeah, MAASCH, go GLOM OFF THE "SOCIALIZED MEDICINE" PAID FOR BY THE COSTA RICANS FOR YOUR MEDICAL CARE!!!!
because you are the only person in the world who works for your money and everybody else just wants to glom off you.
nobody ever gets the short end of the stick and everything bad that happens to anybody is their own fault.
and the solution is to go glom off a third world country who has a functional, successful, public health care system while bitching about all the SUPPOSED FREELOADERS BACK HOME!!!
really? REALLY?
REALLY!!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 10:16am
"And we, who know better, who have taken the steps with choices to get educated and prepared for our future, to avoid this like a dose of the shits mixed in wiith the clap..will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon. And we will remove our funds and abilities..off shore and travel to Costa Rica or Thailand for medical care when needed and will not, like Pelodi, subject ourselves or our loved ones to the Post Office supported by TSA."
Back to third world where a real dose of education awaits you. Good riddance.
Posted by jobbo at 11/19/2009 @ 10:40am
Ibble, 9:42am, thats just animal cruelty, see"cat".
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 10:55am
did you speak this way of Bush and his people when he was in office? methinks not.
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 08:44a
When he was wrong (i.e. immigration reform)...you bet I did. You see gyro, politicians are just that, in it for themselves. I really don't care what letter follows their name. Wrong is wrong on all levels. It just happens that the current bunch of brain dead liberals running the show are the ones at the receiving end of my anger.
Anyone who thinks that the current health care bill (Senate or House) is going to make things better is an utter and total FOOL. Anyone who believes Reid and Pelosi that costs will be reduced is even a bigger idiot. Anyone who trusts politicians (especially this bunch in the admin) to do the right thing is the biggest idiot of them all.
In other words, gyro....you are wrong!
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 11:01am
Curious, on health care, why do you trust Humana, Wellpoint, Blue Cross...
more than people you elect to high office?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 08:52am
Simple, Mask If I get screwed by my health insurance, I can fight back. Can you say the same about the Government?
When it comes to health care I'll trust the private sector WAY more than the government.
Now, I ask you, why do you put so much faith in government. Now, before you spout off about how bad the private market has been, remember this, it is the government who has put us in a $14 trillion hole....that's $14,000,000,000,000.00.
That does NOT include the unfunded mandates for future Medicare and Social Security payments. ($90,000,000,000,000.00) I don't know how this is going to get paid and neither does ANYONE who writes or otherwise posts here.
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 11:12am
"will get stuck the bill to pay for chumps like Comrade Chao and Darlaloon"
maasch, the CBO just concluded the senate bill will cut the deficit by 130 billion AND cover 94 % of americans.
i prefer single-payer, but that's (at least) good news.
oh, btw, if this money is coming from taxes, then i (of course) will be paying for chumps like yourself.
what, you don't think i pay taxes, mr. "i do business in china" (with cheaper labor, resources, etc)....
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 11:46am
"I don't make jokes. I just watch the government and report the facts."
- Will Rogers
"It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress."
Mark Twain, 1894
More from Mark Twain
"No man's life, liberty, or property is safe while the legislature is in session."
"The only difference between a tax man and a taxidermist is that the taxidermist leaves the skin."
That's the difference between governments and individuals. Governments don't care, individuals do. - A Tramp Abroad
The mania for giving the Government power to meddle with the private affairs of cities or citizens is likely to cause endless trouble, through the rivaly of schools and creeds that are anxious to obtain official recognition, and there is great danger that our people will lose our independence of thought and action which is the cause of much of our greatness, and sink into the helplessness of the Frenchman or German who expects his government to feed him when hungry, clothe him when naked, to prescribe when his child may be born and when he may die, and, in fine, to regulate every act of humanity from the cradle to the tomb, including the manner in which he may seek future admission to paradise.
- "Official Physic"
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 11:51am
antisocialist-I keep telling you guys that politicians won't save you,but you partisan people keep thinking that the ones on your side will.They won't.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 11:55am
>>>Stupak bluntly declares that, if the legislation that comes back to the House does not include his amendment, "healthcare will not move forward."<<<
Stupak is bluffing just like when he said he had 40 votes and could only produce 20. If you include the votes from the progressives who voted AGAINST the house bill, the Stupak language is DOA.
Harkin said last night on Rachel's show that he didn't believe the bill or the public option could be improved through Budget Reconciliation because Conrad is chair of the Budget Committee and Nelson from Florida is also on that committee - both conservative Democrats.
But Conrad and Nelson have indicated that they would support a plan with a public option that allows states to opt out, so why not use Feingold and others on the budget committee to craft the STRONGEST public option that could pass with 51 votes through budget reconciliation?
Posted by Metteyya at 11/19/2009 @ 11:58am
The Left ,what remains of it, should kill the bill. It reads to me not as progressive insurance bill, but as a war on the working class and poor.
Posted by Anti-imperialist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:14pm
hey anti,
if mark twain were around today, he would have been pretty far left wing.....so using him to buttress your claims that the government is bad bad bad.....is pretty pathetic.
and he wrote that during the gilded age....long before any progressive legislation.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 12:15pm
Really disappointing that The Nation still hasn't addressed the govs' let-them-get-breast-cancer gaffe.
Will the government promise that only women in the prime of their lives, and not my old granny, will be rationed out of life-saving tests? That might sweeten my tea.
Or is the long-term plan to have the anti-hate crime citizen spy brigade issue free mammograms while inspecting homes for Bibles and other contraband?
Seriously though, HUGE fuck-up. And if The Nation's policy is tight lips, that says something.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:41pm
"The Left ,what remains of it, should kill the bill"
key words: "what remains of it"
a true lefty in the senate is like a gay bar in oklahoma
maybe one lefty?
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 12:43pm
#
Ibble, 9:42am, thats just animal cruelty, see"cat".
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 10:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
yer right. i got a couple of the little monsters. been my best friends for 14 years now. love those natural born killers...
yup...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 12:45pm
Really disappointing that The Nation still hasn't addressed the govs' let-them-get-breast-cancer gaffe.
--mammograms have a huge false-positive ratio. it's much, much higher than the rate of accurate findings of cancer. never mind mammograms aren't the only way to test for breast cancer. but why aren't you advocating for pushing the age for mammograms to 30 if you're so concerned? and colonoscopies down to 30?
Will the government promise that only women in the prime of their lives, and not my old granny, will be rationed out of life-saving tests? That might sweeten my tea.
--your tea will never be sweetened. you're sour, and it shows.
Or is the long-term plan to have the anti-hate crime citizen spy brigade issue free mammograms while inspecting homes for Bibles and other contraband?
--there you are...the leftist hating hack!
Seriously though, HUGE fuck-up.
--no it ain't.
And if The Nation's policy is tight lips, that says something.
--your constant repetition of the line does not make it so!
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 1:00pm
hey anti,
if mark twain were around today, he would have been pretty far left wing.....so using him to buttress your claims that the government is bad bad bad.....is pretty pathetic.
and he wrote that during the gilded age....long before any progressive legislation.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 12:15pm
Twain was pretty much libertarian so I hardly think he would have turned left.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:06pm
"Twain was pretty much libertarian so I hardly think he would have turned left."
yeah he WAS libertarian. but if he were around today, he would NEVER have been libertarian.
he might have embraced certain aspects of libertarianism, like i do, but he never, say, would voted for ron paul or ross perot.
and he would have detested bush.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 1:11pm
"mammograms have a huge false-positive ratio. it's much, much higher than the rate of accurate findings of cancer."
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 1:00pm
That's why a + is followed by another test, at further expense. Snowball thinks it's worth it. The American Cancer Society does too.
Here's my other beef, beyond the obvious rationing of health care at the expense of women's lives.
Why is abortion the only sacrosanct women's health procedure? My guess: Because it is a form of population control.
What do the abortion lobby, the believers in AlGorealypse, and Health Bigshots like Rahm's bruh have in common? They all believe in population control.
Rationing as Pop Control you say? Why that's crazy, evil, fascist, "death panel" talk!
Yes, we believe in rationing out of necessity, and population control to save us from the rising oceans, but Rationing AS Population Control?!!! You sir, are a fascist!
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:16pm
and he would have detested bush.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 1:11pm
Not as much as Obama and the Democrats. Twain thought that taxation was theft.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:18pm
Ibbie, got three kittys meself, don't know how many I've had in my lifetime, but I do love the little buggers, had one live to 23!
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 1:19pm
Ibbie, got three kittys meself, don't know how many I've had in my lifetime, but I do love the little buggers, had one live to 23!
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 1:19pm
A real delicacy on the menus in China and Vietnam
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:24pm
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 1:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person
they've always been there for me. hope these got another decade in them. they are much loved.
A real delicacy on the menus in China and Vietnam
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
hiss!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 1:33pm
"Simple, Mask If I get screwed by my health insurance, I can fight back."----Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 11:12am
Really? How do fights against Insurance Companies usually go for the complainant, fram?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 1:52pm
Yes, we believe in rationing out of necessity, and population control to save us from the rising oceans, but Rationing AS Population Control?!!! You sir, are a fascist! Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:16pm
--yeah, right! I'm personally stopping women from getting mammograms, or anything else they want. get real kids.
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 1:57pm
Really? How do fights against Insurance Companies usually go for the complainant, fram?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 1:52pm
Small I'm sure but still much better odds than fighting the Federal Government. Prove me wrong!!!
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 2:08pm
fram-I get govt health care and I've had better luck fighting them because they can't cancel my policy like a private company can.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 2:20pm
Small I'm sure but still much better odds than fighting the Federal Government. Prove me wrong!!!
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 2:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
why oh why oh why, dear fran, do people who live in even less developed societies around this big ol' round world, that have awful horrible single payer health insurance...
1. live about as long as we
2. pay less for insurance and health care that cannot be denied and...
3. regularly report more satisfaction with their health care than we?
prove yourself right!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 2:32pm
Ibby, ya, I know, kittys are special. Anti, double hiss!
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 2:35pm
Posted by urmygyro at 11/19/2009 @ 1:57pm
Maybe wasn't clear, last paragraphs should have been in quotes.
"Rationing as Pop Control you say? Why that's crazy, evil, fascist, 'death panel' talk!
"Yes, we believe in rationing out of necessity, and population control to save us from the rising oceans, but Rationing AS Population Control?!!! You sir, are a fascist!"
That seems to be the message coming out of the MSM and the admin. Meanwhile the admin can't help itself from undermining the message that it doesn't really believe in rationing, except when it does, by recommending that women save us a couple bucks by not getting tested.
Why do you trust the gov so blindly? These rich people are starting to live longer. And stay beautiful. Which means that they will need an even larger share of everything than they already take.
We proles can historically be depended upon to thin our own herd substantially. But this is America, it ain't Yemen, and despite the best efforts of the network owned by GE to start fires, so far we've only obliged with a sparkler or two.
Are you SURE that your government would NEVER use rationing to clear more pasture for the favored breeds to graze?
Women would be a good place to start. They are the breeders, you know.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 2:41pm
Ibby, ya, I know, kittys are special. Anti, double hiss!
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 2:35pm
I don't eat them myself. Just threw that in to stir the pot. But I certainly have seen it on menus. In fact China ordered it taken off of menus during the Olympics last year until after all the Westerners left the country.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 2:42pm
The Sunday Times of London October 18, 2009
3,000 NHS staff get private care -- Marie Woolf, Whitehall Editor
THE National Health Service has spent £1.5m paying for hundreds of its staff to have private health treatment so they can leapfrog their own waiting lists.
More than 3,000 staff, including doctors and nurses, have gone private at the taxpayers' expense in the past three years because the queues at the clinics and hospitals where they work are too long.
Figures released under the Freedom of Information act show that NHS administrative staff, paramedics and ambulance drivers have also been given free private healthcare. This has covered physiotherapy, osteopathy, psychiatric care and counselling -- all widely available on the NHS.
"It simply isn't fair to have one service for staff and another for everyone else," said Norman Lamb, the Liberal Democrat health spokesman, who obtained the figures.
"If the NHS has to circumvent their own waiting lists the system isn't working well enough. It's an admission by the NHS that their own system isn't able to respond to the mass of people desperate to get back to work."
The number of health service employees sent to private healthcare facilities has more than doubled in the past three years.
In 2006-7, 708 staff working for NHS trusts received private treatment at a cost of £279,000. Last year it increased to 1,641 at a cost of £828,413.
...continued below
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/19/2009 @ 2:46pm
The health department defended the practice and said sending doctors, nurses and other key staff for private treatment helped to get them back to work.
"If trusts want to get their staff back to work more quickly they can't jump NHS waiting lists, so going private is an option," said the spokesman.
"There is evidence that early intervention in tackling sickness absence enables staff to return to work more quickly.
"Other benefits include: reducing the risk of chronic illness that could result in ill health retirement, cost-saving on temporary staff and having a positive impact on staff health and wellbeing and, in turn, patient satisfaction."
The East Midlands ambulance service recently set up a contract with a private occupational healthcare specialist worth £300,000 a year. It has sent its staff to the specialist for vaccines, health screening and to deal with needle injuries and blood tests.
Other big spenders include the south east coast ambulance service, which has sent more than 800 staff for physiotherapy, osteopathy and counselling at a cost of more than £279,000 over three years.
Humber mental health trust has spent more than £47,000 on private counselling, even though it specialises in offering this service along with psychiatric help. A spokeswoman said staff would feel awkward being counselled by NHS colleagues.
"An appropriate and professional counselling and therapeutic service has to be free from any other existing pressures in respect of relationships and therefore cannot always be provided by an organisation," she said.
"Staff may also be referred externally due to peak of demand to meet the need in a timely manner."
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/19/2009 @ 2:49pm
Why does The Nation perpetuate the cowardly Dem leadership's self-serving myth that 60 votes are needed to pass a health care bill? We all know it takes 50 and guts.
Posted by MarciaFS at 11/19/2009 @ 2:58pm
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 2:35pm | ignore this person | warn this person
i just wish they were the size of bobcats so i could train them to leap onto intruders heads and scratch their eyeballs out and slice opn their jugulars...
but that would probably be more dangerous to me given their propensity to make mittens on my arm until it bleeds as it is...
oh well...i love my mittyesque dexter-like daydreaming regardless...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 3:02pm
Twain would certainly have had a field day with the grammatically challenged, bumpkin Bush.
Posted by kirquaker at 11/19/2009 @ 3:07pm
"Small I'm sure but still much better odds than fighting the Federal Government. Prove me wrong!!! "-----Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 2:08pm
It's called "elections", fram. We get them with Governments...we don't with Humana, Wellpath, or Blue Cross.
Do we?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 3:30pm
There are some decidely dark facts the public needs to realize from the recent publication suggesting women put off mammograms until the age of fifty. It is because we are now entering the era of rationed care. The government knows full well that the only way universal care will not bankrupct the country is if we ration care, and that is bad for everyone.
First, we are told that the government is going to cut eight hundred billion dollars out of Medicare over ten years and we are asked to believe that no senior citizen need worry about losing any coverage. No one in their right mind believes you can cut almost a hundred billion dollars a year from this program without rationing care. Indeed, the government has already admitted that hospitals and doctors may not be reimbursed for procedures they currently are being reimbursed for and hospitals have already come out publicly stating they will be forced to deny treatments to patients because of this.
Before long we will hear that colonoscopies, prostate screenings, and other tests should also be put off until your fifties. The incredible thing about rationing care is that preventive medicine is the last thing that should be cut as finding breast cancer, prostate cancer, or colon cancer before it becomes malignant not only saves lives but saves billions of dollars as well! If anything, the government should offer free mammograms to all women at any age!!
All the left wingers who accuse concerned citizens of being right wing nuts who oppose certain aspects of the President or Congress Health Reform are wrong. It is very disconcerting, and should be to everyone, that our government is more concerned about universal coverage than they are about how we are going to pay for it. When the final bill is signed, the American peop
Posted by mjkoch at 11/19/2009 @ 3:31pm
When the final bill is signed, the American people will find out in the coming year or so that tests they thought they were entitled to they are not, procedures they thought were covered no longer are, and that their medical care is now being rationed by bureaucrats in Washington.
Posted by mjkoch at 11/19/2009 @ 3:31pm
To those who say that insurance companies are already rationing, which is 100% true, there will be many tests and procedures that the government will not approve for reimbursement making whatever the insurance companies are doing ten times as worse. I am not and never would defend the insurance companies, trial lawyers, or drug companies, but when our government says "it will only cost....." I have learned not to believe them and when I hear that they plan to cut almost one trillion dollars from Medicare over ten years and they claim no benefits will be cut I of course do not believe them.
Too many people are falling over themselves with joy because we are insuring 31 million people who do not have insurance. Great! Has anyone truly given thought as to how we're going to pay for it? NO, it will NOT be paid by cutting Medicare and taxing people who make more than $500,000.00 per year. You will find within two years that people making 50K or more per year, the middle class, are the ones getting screwed.
Do you really trust the government? After narrowly averting a Depression the Wall Street companies we gave hundreds of billions of dollars to in the bailout are now giving out BILLIONS in bonuses, and they are increasing their bonuses an average of 60 percent OVER LAST YEARS bonuses. And you really believe the U.S. Government is going to finance health care solely by going after the rich? When a Democratic President and a Democratic Congress allow this to happen all I can say is get ready to pay more for less health care.
Posted by mjkoch at 11/19/2009 @ 3:59pm
"Not as much as Obama and the Democrats. Twain thought that taxation was theft"
(quote of the day for claiming that mark f*cking twain would have detested obama more than bush)
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 4:06pm
and i hadn't realize that bush never taxed anyone...
to pay for two trillion dollar wars.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 4:08pm
Twain was pretty much libertarian so I hardly think he would have turned left. Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 1:06pm
Quoting Twain, Rogers, and even Orwell can be a fairly subjective exercise. Everyone can find something in these folks that supports their point of view.
How about this one from Twain: It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.
Posted by ficheye at 11/19/2009 @ 4:30pm
Ibbie, ya, I call that making bread, as in Kneading, And Anti, OMG!
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 4:31pm
It's called "elections", fram. We get them with Governments...we don't with Humana, Wellpath, or Blue Cross.
Do we?
Posted by Mask at 11/19/2009 @ 3:30pm
You're so f*&king hopeless!
Any company that mistreats a bunch of its customers or commits fraud or massive wastes, will have its stocks hammered. Then what happens?
Shareholders demand the resignation of top management and usually, they do step down. No shareholders need to wait 2 years, 4 years or 6 years to `vote' out some imcompetents!
The market imposes far, far tougher discipline than fixed-interval elections!
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 4:37pm
Hey Happ,
You recommend gold-based EFTs or just physical gold?
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 4:45pm
How about this one from Twain: It ain't those parts of the Bible that I can't understand that bother me, it is the parts that I do understand.
Posted by ficheye at 11/19/2009 @ 4:30pm
That's called conviction.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 4:58pm
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 4:37pm
Not for fraud, not for treating customers badly but for losing money, yep.
So as long as they don't lose money it is ok and when they have people like you to defend their records all they have to do is take in more then they pay out.
Posted by !immutable at 11/19/2009 @ 4:58pm
to pay for two trillion dollar wars.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 4:08pm
You can repeat that lie until the cow jumps over the moon, but we've never had two trillion dollar wars.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 4:59pm
Happy-Your type of capitalist has always acted more like a kid in a candy store than a disciplined adult.That's,in large part,why we ended up with unions and the govt sticking their noses into everything.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:00pm
That's,in large part,why we ended up with unions and the govt sticking their noses into everything.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:00pm Maybe if we had Adults in this country that were more disciplined then government wouldn't need tostick there nose's into everything!
Posted by DrPiggy at 11/19/2009 @ 5:21pm
Any company that mistreats a bunch of its customers or commits fraud or massive wastes, will have its stocks hammered Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 4:37pm
Yeah, I guess Ken Lay is dead and Jeff Skilling is in jail. But alot of people got screwed and those facts are likely little comfort. In a democracy the institution survives, is restaffed and carries on. If it has harmed you it could possibly remain liable.
In the corporate world.... *poof*... no Enron.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 5:24pm
DrPiggy-That would be nice.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:24pm
In the corporate world.... *poof*... no Enron.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/19/2009 @ 5:24pm
And it's too bad we can't just "*poof*" the entire Magic administration for another 3 years and 2 months!
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 5:28pm
Happy-Your type of capitalist has always acted more like a kid in a candy store than a disciplined adult.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:00pm
You got it back-assward! It's you Libs who want to go around spreading candy to all corners of the least-productive!
It takes "disciplined adult" like Walt Disney, David Packard, Larry Ellison, Bill Gates, Rupert Murdoch, HAPPY.....to build enterprises as vehicles for wealth....with jobs for the masses as icing on the candy cake!
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 5:32pm
The MSMs obsessive attacks on Palin make more sense in light of the population control/eugenics scheme called obamacare.
Sure, she's an empty suit, like Bush and Bam, but the difference is she is a MAJOR breeder. She even allowed her li'l slut to pump one out. And she personally opted to burden the system with a tard! That's a fu**in' TARD on top of the huge litter of limbic-brained hick soon-to-be breeders she has already unleashed on the system.
You can bet that in the near future she would not be given the option to do that shit again.
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 5:52pm
......gold-based EFTs or just physical gold?
Posted by gangpapist at 11/19/2009 @ 4:45pm
I'm a late-comer to gold....started this May....IMO, do the ETF! It gives you the opportunity to trade.
While I believe gold is on a long-term rise, it WILL fluctuate and my intent is to buy-sell-buy-sell....I got in at around $950/oz and is targeting $1,200 as the level where I'd first consider selling some, if not all.
Gold's all-time high in inflation adjusted price is over $2,100/oz and we're a long ways from it. Gold production is also on a long-term decline; that is, we're already past peak-gold. China's gold reserve is puny relative to the size of its economy and its foreign reserves and we can count on it to be a steady buyer.
Oil finally breached its all-time high when it went over $140 last year. I look for gold to do the same and the more deficits Magic pumps out, the shorter time we'll have to wait.
I also bought 2~3 times more in gold mining mutual fund, Fidelity Select Gold (FSAGX) thru the 401k. This aspect of my gold play is expected to be longer term, as a core holding for a long, long time to come. I won't trade this as much as there are penalties for trading within 30 or 60 days of each.
My Gold ETF (GLD) is up almost 20% since May while FSAGX is up over 30% in the same time frame. This is not meant to brag (to urmy), but just to point out the extra kicker the mining fund provides (would also be on the downside).
Bottom line is I don't see much downside to gold at the current level....for me, any drop of less than 20% is not a big deal and well within my tolerance.
It's ironic....I listen to Rush and its sponsors have always pushed gold and I never gave it a thought....but Magic brought the CHANGE in my outlook and my HOPE for gold......LOL!
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 5:55pm
Happy-I'm aware that you have no idea what a liberal is,but I appreciate it that you verified that.You may wish to find out what these terms mean in order to give you some credibility.I'm not surprised that what I said went over your head since you were trying to read liberal into what I said.You are not disciplined adults.You are children who can't have enough toys to play with and,like children,quite self centered.You even go out and spend way too much money on a steak dinner just so you can brag about it on here.You guys even call it "playing" the market.You use a childs word to describe your actions.You guys are not the most productive.People who work for a living are.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:55pm
You guys are not the most productive.People who work for a living are.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:55pm
Isn't that neat? Unproductive folks like me provide the living for "people who work".
I'm heading out now to catch the Colorado vs. Oklahoma State game on ESPN....at my usual watering hole where all those servers know me and appreciate my generous tips!
Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 6:18pm
"You can repeat that lie until the cow jumps over the moon, but we've never had two trillion dollar wars"
check costofwar.com
and, anti, how much is a dead life worth to you?
are 150,000 dead iraqis worth anything?
what about american lives? injuries? health care for said americans?
we are well over a trillion with each war.
there are hidden costs which nobody wants to talk about.
i repeat: what is the cost of a human life, to you?
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 6:19pm
happy-Like a child,you bragged about tipping.You aren't providing anyone with jobs.You're just filling your own pockets.If someone gets a job out of that then fine,but that's not your goal.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 6:27pm
Happy-You even think that you have to buy the servers at your watering hole with big tips.I prefer to be around people who like me rather than those I'd have to buy in order to get them to be nice to me.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 6:29pm
Happy-The problem that your type of capitalist has is that you see your fellow humans as a commodity that you buy and sell,like you just showed with your big tip thing.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 6:33pm
Well why not reject Stupak? Someone has to have the guts to. There has to be an excuse to want to have this pro United Health reform bill top pass.When AARP endorsed the bill I knew the bill was a boondoggle.Max and Kent should be happy. They helped craft a bill that goes into effect in 4 years . By then the insurance companies will have cut more jobs,paid out more bonuses,gouged more consumers,and hopefully affected enough conservatives so something substantial gets done. Government control is a misnomer. How many "natural" supplements are approved by the FDA.Santi are those stores you buy things at filled with unmarked bottles.,I think not.Are the stores,web sites,or other places taxed when we do commerce.When your favorite radio station gives a traffic update from highway cameras answer me who installed them?When phone calls can be listened to by the NSA who made the decision?The answer is the government and it wasn't this Administration. So for all the socialism and Marxism yellers why don't you think about this for a while before you get back on your government is evil schtick.
Posted by whatozz at 11/19/2009 @ 6:42pm
there are hidden costs which nobody wants to talk about.
i repeat: what is the cost of a human life, to you?
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 6:19pm
You framed the question wrong.
Darla, what is the cost to the US of another 9/11 that completely shut down our economy and killed 3000 people?
What is the cost of allowing terrorism to have free reign in the world against Americans here and abroad?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/19/2009 @ 7:00pm
Posted by Denise29 at 11/19/2009 @ 4:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person
:)
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 7:46pm
THIS IS HOW RATIONING BEGINS.
Posted by fram at 11/19/2009 @ 06:46am
Yes, a nice twist on the theme. In corporo-speak, 'denial based on pre-existing condition'
Posted by winyahn at 11/19/2009 @ 7:59pm
CEO's gargantuan pay justified by how well they fused themselves with 'government' and shredded regulation, competition, got no bid contracts and schweeeeetheart deals and made the shareholders gargantuan profits.
Round and Round Ayn Rand we go. With corp mouthpieces screaming 'aiding and abetting', 'un-American', fear/flag on every major TV / radio channel --- RECALL THE BUILD-UP TO THE IRAQ INVASION, THE SOFTBALL PRESS CONFERENCES, rejection of Germany's and France's CONSERVATISM/moderation, fast forward to death panels and 'government run health plan' and terrorists getting off on technicalities, and what is the cost to the US of another 9/11 HAHA -- with this propaganda on steriods -- CEO's gargantuan pay justified by how well they fused themselves with 'government' and shredded regulation, competition, got no bid contracts and schweeeeetheart deals and made the shareholders gargantuan profits is a lock.
Posted by winyahn at 11/19/2009 @ 8:07pm
"Darla, what is the cost to the US of another 9/11 that completely shut down our economy and killed 3000 people?"
9/11 did not "completely shut down the economy," and 3000 people is hardly a lot of people.
that's 0.000001% of the country.
and i didn't realize that invading and occupying iraq or afhganistan was preventing terrorist attacks.
in fact, the pentagon concluded in 2004 that both invasions actually INCREASED the likelihood of attacks on americans.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 8:35pm
House panel approves Ron Paul's proposal to audit the Federal Reserve
Politico - Victoria Mcgrane - 4 hours ago
The House Financial Services Committee has approved Rep. Ron Paul's measure to drastically expand the ...
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/19/2009 @ 9:00pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/19/2009 @ 9:00pm | ignore this person | warn this person
where u been? living life?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/19/2009 @ 9:06pm
DrPiggy-That would be nice.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/19/2009 @ 5:24pm
Glad to see we agree
Posted by DrPiggy at 11/19/2009 @ 10:38pm
antisocialist, john lyons has a post in salon today which shows that the pentagon's budget for next 10 years is 6.7 TRILLION dollars.
are you cool with that?
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 11:18pm
Santi maybe only Iraq has a $2 trillion cost now. Afghanistan will follow if Obama gives generals what they want.You are correct our conservative government shut America down after 9/11.Businesses did not the government did. It has cost us billions in security costs that don't secure anything.We are not more secure but we have more guns in closets and on the street.
Posted by whatozz at 11/20/2009 @ 04:52am
The market imposes far, far tougher discipline than fixed-interval elections!"----Posted by Happy at 11/19/2009 @ 4:37pm
Why, sure, Happ....after all, it's not like they'd ever act together in cahoots, like a "business trust" or something. Such a thing is historically impossible.
Posted by Mask at 11/20/2009 @ 07:25am
"Darla, what is the cost to the US of another 9/11 that completely shut down our economy and killed 3000 people?"
9/11 did not "completely shut down the economy," and 3000 people is hardly a lot of people.
that's 0.000001% of the country.
and i didn't realize that invading and occupying iraq or afhganistan was preventing terrorist attacks.
in fact, the pentagon concluded in 2004 that both invasions actually INCREASED the likelihood of attacks on americans.
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 8:35pm
That's your problem. How many attacks on US soil have we had since 9/11?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:28am
antisocialist, john lyons has a post in salon today which shows that the pentagon's budget for next 10 years is 6.7 TRILLION dollars.
are you cool with that?
Posted by darladoon at 11/19/2009 @ 11:18pm
Haven't read it but I would call Mr Lyons a LIAR.
I don't know of anyone including the Pentagon and Congress who knows what the Pentagon budget will be for the next 10 years.
1st of all, the constitution prohibits military budgets greater than 2 years.
2nd, the military does have some baseline extended planning (ie, payroll which is 25% of the military budget, and base maintenance)
But no one can know what our real military budget needs are 5 years from now, much less 10 years.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:35am
Santi maybe only Iraq has a $2 trillion cost now. Afghanistan will follow if Obama gives generals what they want.You are correct our conservative government shut America down after 9/11.Businesses did not the government did. It has cost us billions in security costs that don't secure anything.We are not more secure but we have more guns in closets and on the street.
Posted by whatozz at 11/20/2009 @ 04:52am
The world shut down their securities markets on 9/11, not just the US.
You don't think we were under a State of Emergency on 9/11 and in the week following that required shutting down all air travel in and out of the US?
You don't believe that the nation was in a state of shock and uncertainty in the weeks following 9/11 that completely disrupted our economy?
What world do you live in?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:38am
Santi maybe only Iraq has a $2 trillion cost now. Afghanistan will follow if Obama gives generals what they want.You are correct our conservative government shut America down after 9/11.Businesses did not the government did. It has cost us billions in security costs that don't secure anything.We are not more secure but we have more guns in closets and on the street.
Posted by whatozz at 11/20/2009 @ 04:52am
Also, the cost of the Iraq war hit 1 trillion this year (about a month ago).
And as I've often commented to war critics on this cost, at least 30% has been the payroll and associated costs of military personnel which we already have to pay for each year.
I doubt we will ever see 1 trillion in cost for Aghanistan. It is an entirely different kind of operation and the international element with NATO is substantially larger.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:42am
Did Darla really write this?!:
"9/11 did not "completely shut down the economy," and 3000 people is hardly a lot of people."
Darla, do you really mean 3000 is hardly a lot of people in the context of innocents killed in a man caused disaster?
How can you say that, yet try to keep some moral high ground on torture?
I hope I'm wrong and you were just quoting another poster.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/20/2009 @ 10:05am
I hope I'm wrong and you were just quoting another poster.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/20/2009 @ 10:05am
No, that was just another example of her bizarre logic and sense of morality
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 10:12am
How many attacks on US soil have we had since 9/11?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:28am
hundreds.
the christmas party guy, the virginia tech guy..
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 10:27am
How many attacks on US soil have we had since 9/11?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 09:28am
hundreds.
the christmas party guy, the virginia tech guy..
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 10:27am
By Al Qaeda or other jihadists-stay in context Frosty (although I know that is quite difficult for you).
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 11:56am