Obama Gets It: Tackling Unemployment is Job 1

posted by John Nichols on 11/12/2009 @ 11:27am

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The No. 1 issue facing the country is unemployment.

President Obama and Congress have been too slow to recognize that fact and to act upon it.

But that seems to be changing -- now that the official jobless rate has spiked to 10.2 percent.

On Tuesday, Senator Majority Leader Harry Reid, D-Nevada, told the Senate Democratic Caucus that legislation to promote the creation of new jobs must become a top priority.

On Thursday, Obama made his move, announcing that a White House on jobs and economic growth will be held in December.

"We all know that there are limits to what government can and should do, even during such difficult times. But we have an obligation to consider every additional, responsible step that we can [take] to encourage and accelerate job creation in this country," says Obama. "And that's why, in December, we'll be holding a forum at the White House on jobs and economic growth. We'll gather CEOs and small business owners, economists and financial experts, as well as representatives from labor unions and nonprofit groups, to talk about how we can work together to create jobs and get this economy moving again."

If the forum is realistic -- and honest about the challenge that double-digit unemployment pose to the country in general and in particular to communities where the jobless rate far exceeds 10.2 percent -- the summit will conclude that major new initiatives are needed.

What kind of initiative? The Roosevelt Institute has some great ideas, which are being highlighted at the institute's New Deal 2.0 site.

But the key idea its that the federal response must be far bolder than the tepid stimulus package passed earlier this year by the Congress and signed by a new and well-intentioned president who, unfortunately, seemed to be a little too determined to get on to the next task.

There is now a greater urgency to act than there was at the time when the initial package was being discussed.

With unemployment now in the double digits, and at the highest rate in more than a quarter century, it is clear that bold steps -- passage of a fully-funded and ambitious transportation infrastructure bill; allocation of additional funds for hard-pressed states, cities and school systems; establishment of new trade policies; perhaps the development of schemes to reward businesses that start hiring; perhaps the development of a 21st-century variation on the Civilian Conservation Corps and other New deal programs -- must be launched quickly if they are going to shape a recovery that works not just for Wall Street but for Main Street.

As Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold, who has been arguing for months: "While our nation faces serious challenges at home and abroad, creating jobs in this down economy must be a top priority."

Feingold's got specific asks for the summit.

For instance, the Democratic senator says, "I very much hope the temporary jobs tax credit I am developing will be considered by those attending the jobs summit. While there's no easy way to solve the unemployment problem, the jobs tax credit would be a targeted and responsible tool to help businesses hire workers and bring down unemployment."

Obama has been too slow to get ahead of this issue, which ultimately poses social, economic and political challenges for his administration.

But his statement Thursday was a good one, especially the part where he said:

Millions of Americans -- our friends, our neighbors, our family members -- are desperately searching for jobs. This is one of the great challenges that remains in our economy -- a challenge that my administration is absolutely determined to meet.

That determination must be linked to a sense of urgency.

The December summit is a fine response

But neither the administration nor members of Congress should wait until December to start moving on the development of the legislation -- and the funding schemes -- that will pay for a serious new commitment by the president and Democratic leaders in the House and Senate to job creation and retention their highest priority.

If the administration pulls its punches on this one, working families and communities across the United States will suffer even harder hits than they already have.

And their response to that suffering -- as the results from the 2009 off-year elections remind us -- will be the rejection of Democrats who are seen as insufficiently committed to getting America back to work by making the necessary investments to create a high-employment, high-wage economy for the 21st century.

Andrew Rich, the president of the Roosevelt Institute offers an appropriate historical note with regard to focus and urgency.

"FDR knew that a recovery without jobs was not a recovery at all – but that same determination to create jobs for Americans who need them seems missing in the response to today's crisis," argues Rich. "The Roosevelts understood that work brought a kind of basic dignity to people during hard times, and they carried out those values in the policies they implemented."

Barack Obama must borrow a page from Franklin and Eleanor Roosevelt and make his a job-creation presidency.

Comments (92)

Obama has ALWAYS been on the job issue, as this is what the largest stimulus in US history was all about. It just takes a while for the money to work its way through the system (2-year period), and another round of stimulus that focuses on infrastructure rebuilding is in the works.

Posted by Metteyya at 11/12/2009 @ 11:31am
Obama Starts to Get It: Tackling Unemployment is Job 1

yep, some folks at goldman almost lost their jobs!

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 11:47am
woohoo!!!

fix a problem of too much debt by borrowing!!!!

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 11:47am
ok, step one - GET MEANINGFUL HEALTH CARE REFORM PASSED...

something that will move us toward a SIMPLE SINGLE PAYER PAYCHECK DEDUCTION SYSTEM that will free business to do its thing and result in a healthy and secure feeling workforce/consumer class...

at least help enable such, within the context of a wide array of wise REAL wealth creating initiatives.

the waste and corruption in our society is legal and controls all too many of our elected "representatives".

who the hell are they supposed to be representing? who are they representing?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 11:48am
As noted before, I'm sure our right-wing friends will have THEIR answer to "How to create jobs"...

Just give Steve Forbes a huge tax cut and he'll hire 100-200, 000 new employeess at the magazine!

or Exxon-Mobil, and we'll see millions of new gas station jobs.

Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 11:57am
Thanks so much for writing this piece -- I am thrilled to see the White House taking a more active role on creating jobs. The timing is great as the Roosevelt Institute just launched today a 10-part series on big solutions to the jobs crisis on our blog, www.newdeal20.org. The first piece is by economist Randall Wray and advocates for a government jobs program that would guarantee a job to anyone willing and able to work. I hope big ideas like this are included as part of the White House efforts!

Posted by jenancona at 11/12/2009 @ 11:58am
ok, step one - GET MEANINGFUL HEALTH CARE REFORM PASSED...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 11:48am

oh well, back to step minus 2.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:03pm
Well, Hell JOHN NICHOLS why didn't you enlighten him 8 months ago.?

Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 11/12/2009 @ 12:04pm
Obama has ALWAYS been on the job issue,

•• yeah, HIS.

as this is what the largest stimulus in US history was all about.

•• smoke and mirrors.

It just takes a while for the money to work its way through the system (2-year period),

•• sure thing.

and another round of stimulus that focuses on infrastructure rebuilding is in the works.

•• WHO'S GONNA PAY FOR IT???

Posted by Metteyya at 11/12/2009 @ 11:31am

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:05pm
or Exxon-Mobil, and we'll see millions of new gas station jobs.

Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 11:57am

well, with gas at $5 a gallon soon i doubt that's gonna happen.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:06pm
Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 11:57am | ignore this person | warn this person

or invade iran, north korea, venezuela and hell, why not cuba (they gots some of that oil now...), instituted the draft and...

EMPLOY MILLIONS as well as further enrich the HALIBURTON CLASS!!!!!

soon we'll all be either in the military, related to someone in the military, all covered with health insurance, and dying off at a happily sustainable rate as a result of WW3!

and the rest will be happy serfs offering our posteriors to our satano-aynrando feudal overlords for prima nocta reaming to our hearts' content!!!!

what a happy, HAPPY world it will be!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:07pm
oh well, back to step minus 2.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person

two steps back, three steps forward...i'll take it, but then i'm an incurable optimist...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:09pm
or invade iran, north korea, venezuela and hell, why not cuba (they gots some of that oil now...), instituted the draft and...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:07pm

well, looky here:

COLOMBIA, U.S. SIGN DEAL ON USE OF BASES

October 30, 2009 4:50 p.m. EDT

(CNN) -- Colombia and the United States signed an agreement Friday that allows U.S. personnel to be stationed at seven military bases in the South American nation. The United States says it needs the bases to help in its fight against terrorists and narcotraffickers, especially since the closure a few months ago of a U.S. base in Ecuador. The United States maintains similar "forward operating locations" in El Salvador and Aruba-Curacao.

••

oh, and by the way, mr. uribe is trying to amend the constitution in order to serve a third term, a là chavez.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:11pm
two steps back, three steps forward..

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:09pm

more like:

two steps back and now stuck in more mud.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:12pm
ah, the joys of fiat.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:12pm
at last:

http://www.zerohedge.com/article/fha-getting-sick- feeding-next-housing-bubble-raise-minimum-downpayment

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:14pm
oh, and by the way, mr. uribe is trying to amend the constitution in order to serve a third term, a là chavez.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person

well OF COURSE!!!!!

but where oh where is the histrionic screeching of even otherwise sensible punditry at THAT???

"when i fed the poor they called me a saint. when i asked why the poor were hungry, they called me a communist."

dom helder camara

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:15pm
jobs?!?!?

fat chance:

"In mid-2008 it was estimated that some $260 billion was invested in the Brent energy markets on the ICE while the value of the oil actually coming out of the North Sea each month, at maybe $4 to $5 billion at most. NYMEX trading follows a similar path with 258,000, 1,000-barrel contracts open for December delivery (258M barrels), which were traded 327,000 times yesterday alone yet, at the end of the period, less than 40M barrels of oil will actually be delivered as that is the total capacity at Cushing, OK - where NYMEX contract deliveries are settled. Every single one of those traders know it is not even possible for 80% of the contracts they are trading to be fulfilled - its a joke, but the joke is on YOU!

Over the course of an average month at the NYMEX, 5 BILLION barrels of oil will be traded, with a fee being collected on every single transaction which is ultimately passed down to US consumers, yet less than 40M barrels will actually be delivered. That is just 8 tenths of 1 percent of actual demand for the product that is being traded - 99.2% of the oil transaction fees being paid by the American people do nothing more than create fees for the traders and record profits and bonuses for the trading firms! "

••

plus,

how many people are currently working part time? these people will get more hours before anybody is hired.

and

the latest productivity numbers show that those left with a job are doing the work of 2! fear is a very strong motivator.

U3 will be at 12.7% at the end of 2010.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:21pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
get very, VERY ANGRY!!!!!!!!

http://www.zerohedge.com/article /guest-post-goldman's-global-oil-scam-passes-50-madoff-mark

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm
"We all know that there are limits to what government can and should do, even during such difficult times."

This sounds more like Milton Friedman than a president who's supposed to be a democrat. Hardly a socialist as the neocons keep calling him here.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/12/2009 @ 12:29pm
the repairing of a healthy capitalist system in this country will inevitably involve smart, efficiency enabling, productive, REAL WEALTH BUILDING, sustainable wealth redistribution.

not just giving money away, no - but strengthening the consumer class.

the united states CANNOT serve as the bottomless pit of world consumption, enriching a few at the top here and enabling industrialization of the rest of the world. substituing absurd lines of credit to the consumer for real and sustainable wealth building, then weeping and gnashing of teeth when the credit collapses as a result of massive over-extension of credit will not work.

over a long enough period of time "unlimited growth" is, practically speaking, possible, almost inevitable.

but within shorter frameworks of time there are LIMITS. when these limits are ignored, when irresponsible profiteering encourages irresponsible spending, the limit is reached long before the explosion.

we are sliding into a banana republic, third world quicksand trap here and have been for decades.

if some of the profits of outsourcing and automation are not redistributed in some way, the consuming class will wither and the producing class will cease to produce.

its a fine line and hard to find, made more difficult by reality filtering ideology too closely adhered.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:34pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 12:26pm

They seem to have pulled the link....

Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/12/2009 @ 12:41pm
Obama and the Democrats have created a 2 trillion dollar deficit with more to come from their healthcare fiasco and now leftists want them to spend more borrowed money to further increase the deficit and somehow create jobs?

We can now label the left the "Alice in Wonderland" ideology.

'Take some more tea,' the March Hare said to Alice, very earnestly.

'I've had nothing yet,' Alice replied in an offended tone, 'so I can't take more.'

'You mean you can't take LESS,' said the Hatter: 'it's very easy to take MORE than nothing.'

'Nobody asked YOUR opinion,' said Alice.

'Who's making personal remarks now?' the Hatter asked triumphantly.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 12:41pm
This sounds more like Milton Friedman than a president who's supposed to be a democrat. Hardly a socialist as the neocons keep calling him here.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/12/2009 @ 12:29pm

They're calling him a socialist because he's black, you know, not because they know ANYTHING about how unsocialistic most of his policies are....

Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/12/2009 @ 12:43pm
Obama and the Democrats have created a 2 trillion dollar deficit with more to come from their healthcare fiasco and now leftists want them to spend more borrowed money to further increase the deficit and somehow create jobs?

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person

oh yes...obama has created a buzillion dollar deficit. all by himself. nothing happened for two to three decades prior that led to this situation. all of sudden that crazy mulatto finds himself in the big white house and POOF!!!!!

BUZILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DEBT "MAGICALLY" APPEAR UTTERLY DEVOID OF CONTEXT!

all prior activities and policies suddenly never existed!

i don't know...running our economy like some kind of irresponsible free for all get rich quick scheme, listening to ideologized "experts" who were personally profiteering from their foolish wealth destroying advise, getting bogged down in one bloody moneysuck of a land war in asia largely as a result of unnecessary involvement in another, gleefully enabling outsourcing of jobs for decades while shrinking any attempt to redistribute wealth to consumers, encouraging irresponsible lending and borrowing...

blah blah blah...just so much blah blah, i know...

the world began the day mr. obama took office...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:52pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:07pm

Happ, our self-proclaimed "better than anybody here on energy" expert....

still can't tell us how many "hundreds of thousands" of new jobs Exxon would provide if we just cut their corporate taxes.

Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 1:14pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 12:41pm

Typical Neocon under Obama, can't remember anything that happened prior to Obama's inaguration. 2t deficit is all the dems and Obamas fault. Why? "Well, cause, um...They were stupid and um, they chose to win the election...so therefore its their fault. Oh, and btw the terrorists are going to attack and the dems can't protect you, only neocons are concerned about your safety."

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 1:31pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 12:41pm

Typical Neocon under Obama, can't remember anything that happened prior to Obama's inaguration. 2t deficit is all the dems and Obamas fault. Why? "Well, cause, um...They were stupid and um, they chose to win the election...so therefore its their fault. Oh, and btw the terrorists are going to attack and the dems can't protect you, only neocons are concerned about your safety."

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 1:31pm

The deficit increased by the end of the Bush Administration to 456 Billion.

did bush create the global recession that began in late 2007? I know leftists like to suggest that, but it is only achievable if you ignore the facts.

Bush cannot escape blame for his contribution in joining with the Democrats and some Republicans like McCain on the Bank Bailout in late 2008. But half of that money was reserved for Obama to authorize after taking office.

Next, it was not Bush, but Obama and the Democrats who put through an additional 800 billion in deficit spending right after taking office.

http://tinyurl.com/crslff

It was Obama and the Democrats who then put through an additional 410 billion in spending.

March 11, 2009

<WASHINGTON - Calling it an "imperfect" bill, President Barack Obama signed a $410 billion spending package Wednesday that includes billions in earmarks like those he promised to curb in last year's campaign.>

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29632177/

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 2:23pm
Read an interesting article the other day that basically said that the Fed's inflation fighting strategy ( a real risk given all the funny money pumped into the economy) is to keep unemployment high! With high unemployment, the Fed can continue to keep interest rates at zero to prop up balance sheets. High unemployment keeps downward pressure on costs such as wages, salaries, goods, services, etc.

Kind of a high wire act.

Alan Greenspan has stated that this was part of monetary and fiscal policy.

Don't hold your breadth maties.

Posted by OneVote at 11/12/2009 @ 2:24pm
Federal deficit sets October record of $176.4B Federal deficit hits record $176.4 billion for Oct. as revenues plunge, spending remains high

By Martin Crutsinger and Daniel Wagner, AP Business Writers On 2:40 pm EST, Thursday November 12, 2009

WASHINGTON (AP) -- The federal deficit hit a record for October as the new budget year began where the old one ended: with the government awash in red ink.

Economists worry that if such deficits continue it could push up interest rates, further dragging on the fragile economic recovery.

The Treasury Department said Thursday that the deficit for October totaled $176.4 billion, even higher than the $150 billion imbalance that economists expected.

The deficit for the 2009 budget year, which ended on Sept. 30, set an all-time record in dollar terms of $1.42 trillion. That was $958 billion above the 2008 deficit, the previous record holder.

October was the 13th straight month to show a monthly deficit -- another record. It was the fifth-largest monthly deficit ever.

Posted by OneVote at 11/12/2009 @ 2:39pm
Wow, our President is so smart, it took him only 10 months to realize that "It's the Economy" is more than just a useful campaign rhetoric!

Man, he's just so smart....I am in Shock and Awe!

Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 2:45pm
did bush create the global recession that began in late 2007? I know leftists like to suggest that, but it is only achievable if you ignore the facts.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 2:23pm

Don't you see how hipocritical this statement is? You first complain that Obama and the dems are totally responsible for all deficit spending done to lessen and reduce the chance of a major economic depression. And at the same time complain that Bush gets some of the blame.

Bush was elected/appointed in 2000, he surely deserves some of the blame for an economic collapse that occured during his watch. Or do we pretend he really had no influence over the economy for the 6 years he was in power prior to the collapse?

You cite spending bills and directly equate that to deficit? It is incorrect to think that the spending and bailouts have not benefitted the economy, you presume it was money all thrown into a black hole never to be seen again. It was not, it does not take a phD in economics to know that.

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 2:46pm
"We all know that there are limits to what government can and should do, even during such difficult times."

This sounds more like Milton Friedman than a president who's supposed to be a democrat. Hardly a socialist as the neocons keep calling him here.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/12/2009 @ 12:29pm

Our neocon friends need to find a better phraseology to pull out of their ass, among other things, than "socialist".

It does not fit this guy. I wouldn't even call him, necessarily, "pro-labor", let alone socialist.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/12/2009 @ 2:49pm
Man, he's just so smart....I am in Shock and Awe!

Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 2:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Yeah, unlike the dry-drunk ex-frat boy he replaced. LOL.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/12/2009 @ 2:50pm
Happy-No smart person would want to be president.

Posted by i'm nobody at 11/12/2009 @ 3:13pm
<WASHINGTON - Calling it an "imperfect" bill, President Barack Obama signed a $410 billion spending package Wednesday that includes billions in earmarks like those he promised to curb in last year's campaign.>

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 2:23pm

yeah, and john mccain is the largest recipient of health "care" lobbyist largesse.

COKE! PEPSI!

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 3:20pm
Happy-No smart person would want to be president.

Posted by i'm nobody at 11/12/2009 @ 3:13pm

well, that's more than evident.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2009 @ 3:20pm
Happy-No smart person would want to be president.

Posted by i'm nobody at 11/12/2009 @ 3:13pm

Good one!

Depends on what the definition of "smart" is...LOL!

Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 3:25pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2009 @ 12:52pm

You're prolific today Ibbie. Still down at the pisser (pub)?

Raced in to a local hardware store to get a pair of circlip pliers for my wife to fix up her washing machine a few evenings ago. The China models cost about $10. All they had left were made in American models. How much ? These are a little dearer mate. How much? $52. Oh shit.

Then I thought of all you poor unemployed Americans and bought them.

I later thought how on earthwould the Americans send these things, at this price, into Australia?

The answer US/Aus FTA. aka we sell you some beef you sell us some overpriced pliers.

So don't knock those a-rando outsourcing policies....except why send us the insourced expensive stuff? Do you think we are stupid?

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/12/2009 @ 3:39pm
Obama and the Democrats are starting to get it now that UNEMPLOYMENT is at 10.2%? You're kidding me right? You mean they didn't get it when they took office? They didn't get it when it hit 8%? They didn't get it when it hit 9%? They didn't get it when UNEMPLOYMENT HIT 9.5%? They didn't get it when it hit 9.8%. They are just now starting to get it when it hits 10.2%? A challenge that his administration is determined to meet now that Millions and Millions more Americans are out of work and UNEMPLOYMENT is at 10.2%???? Sorry to sound so repetitive, but if the best John Nichols a fervent Obama supporter can says is that Obama and the Democrats are starting to get it that Jobs are #1 now that UNEMPLOYEMENT is at 10.2% than they all need to go. They all need to be defeated in the very next election. A President, Senator, and Congressman that waits for UNEMPLOYMENT to HIT 10.2% and UNDEREMPLOYMENT to be closer to 20% before they start to get it needs to go, and go fast!!!!!! John Nichols in the title to this article made the most damning statement of Obama that I have yet seen!

Posted by valwayne at 11/12/2009 @ 3:40pm
Posted by OneVote at 11/12/2009 @ 2:39pm

OV, curious, as a "progressive"...

where exactly would you part ways with, say.... Pat Buchanan or Ron Paul?

Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 3:41pm
Don't you see how hipocritical this statement is? You first complain that Obama and the dems are totally responsible for all deficit spending done to lessen and reduce the chance of a major economic depression. And at the same time complain that Bush gets some of the blame.

Bush was elected/appointed in 2000, he surely deserves some of the blame for an economic collapse that occured during his watch. Or do we pretend he really had no influence over the economy for the 6 years he was in power prior to the collapse?

You cite spending bills and directly equate that to deficit? It is incorrect to think that the spending and bailouts have not benefitted the economy, you presume it was money all thrown into a black hole never to be seen again. It was not, it does not take a phD in economics to know that.

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 2:46pm

perhaps you missed this paragraph in my post?

<Bush cannot escape blame for his contribution in joining with the Democrats and some Republicans like McCain on the Bank Bailout in late 2008. But half of that money was reserved for Obama to authorize after taking office.>

And yes, Bush is also to blame for not vetoing more budgets as both Republicans and Democrats kept increasing spending.

As to the bailouts, I see few libs joining you in approving that move.

The 800 billion stimulus has done ZERO to stimulate and improve the economy. Obama said that he needed that stimulus to prevent unemployment from going over 8%. Didn't happen.

Give me your list of how the 800 billion has helped the economy?

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 3:43pm
Obama Gets It?

A December, forum, legislation maybe in January, February, or March, and by then there will be at least a million more unemployed Americans, who knows how many more home foreclosures, billions more slated for more troops in Afghanistan.

Personally, I do not think Obama gets it at all if he did, he would direct existing spare funds by decree from TARP which are still available, re-instate the clunker program for autos made in the USA. which put auto workers back to work, re-instate the $8k first time mortgage deduction, etc.

There is A LOT he could do immediately, waiting a month for a conference does not indicate the sense of urgency that is required.

The fact that he totally needs a wake up call on this issue in these circumstances is worse than dismal.

Economic policy, trade policy in the US has been on the wrong track for 30 years, and we can not have an economy primarily based on the derivatives trade, and Wall Streets domination of economic policy and addiction to fictitious capital.

We need to produce what we cn actually consume to provide wealth building for average Americans, and Obama has been wrong to say we do not need our jobs lost back, we do.

Posted by leschwartz at 11/12/2009 @ 3:55pm
by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 1:31pm...

--Thomas Jefferson speaking to James Madison about Adams taking on the presidency after Washington...--

"The president is fortunate to get off just as the bubble is bursting, leaving others to hold the bag. Yet, as his departure will mark the moment when the difficulties begin to work, you will see, that they will be ascribed to the new administration, and that he will have his usual good fortune of reaping credit from the good acts of others, and leaving to them that of his errors". ..

..."The republicans had been lucky to lose"

Posted by ttr at 11/12/2009 @ 4:02pm
Give me your list of how the 800 billion has helped the economy?

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 3:43pm

So the only thing Bush is to blame is the bailout and not vetoing budgets? Other than that his 6 years in office leading to the collapse had no relavance?

Are you pretending that 800b spent domestically just disapeared? That it has not had any beneficial effect? your kidding right?

Did the stimulus solve all the problems? NO. Is it helping? Sure. Did it do enough? No.

ttr is correct. The republicans are lucky to not be in power right now.

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 4:28pm
So the only thing Bush is to blame is the bailout and not vetoing budgets? Other than that his 6 years in office leading to the collapse had no relavance?

Are you pretending that 800b spent domestically just disapeared? That it has not had any beneficial effect? your kidding right?

Did the stimulus solve all the problems? NO. Is it helping? Sure. Did it do enough? No.

ttr is correct. The republicans are lucky to not be in power right now.

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 4:28pm

So you cannot cite anything specifically?

I know you can't because no one else can either.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 4:40pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 4:40pm |

Tree Planting over an Area of Approximately 5 Acres Ontario (CA), Riverside (CA) California Department of Transportation Allocation Amount: $510,000.

Enjoy the new trees, Anti.

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 5:11pm
It kept teachers in arizona from loosing their jobs.

Posted by Denise29 at 11/12/2009 @ 5:19pm
Posted by Metteyya at 11/12/2009 @ 11:31am

No it isn't. Not only is a second stimulus not being planned, the administration isn't even considering discussion of a second stimulus. He SHOULD be considering a second stimulus targeted at unemployment, but that's not what's happening. Obama merely gets that rising unemployment is a threat to the Democratic party's prospects for the midterm elections.

Posted by nkurland at 11/12/2009 @ 5:25pm
Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 4:28pm

So you cannot cite anything specifically?

I know you can't because no one else can either.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 4:40pm

Actually it is because the list is too long. Take a peek at Recovery.gov click on your state and look at where all the money is going, note if the job has started or not. Try and tell me that all those projects all that money is not having a positive effect on the economy.

Posted by Extraneous at 11/12/2009 @ 5:30pm
Tree Planting over an Area of Approximately 5 Acres Ontario (CA), Riverside (CA) California Department of Transportation Allocation Amount: $510,000.

Enjoy the new trees, Anti.

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 5:11pm

Heck of a Job, Magic!

Over $100k per acre to move some trees from one place (?nursey?) to another.....brilliant!

I'd spread some seeds and hire ONE landscaper, PART-TIME, one day a week, to regularly water the 5 acres until the seedlings are head high....say 3 years....maybe at a cost of $36k, $1 k per month.

Now, you just proved why most people think over 50% of Gubber spending is wasted!

Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 5:43pm
There is the other possibility that political leaders , including presidents, have no significant bearing on how a domestic economy performs. That more so in an increasingly integrated world economy.

It was not only America that contributed to the "new depression" 30s style, GB and other European countries were just as irresponsible with their lending policies and the trading of unbacked securities.

Noticed in the local news that economists are now doubting whether the recent "repeat of the great depression" was even a very mild recession at all. This economy is now powering along and unemployment seems to have peaked at 5.8%. It has a very highly rated banking system that did not trade in worthless securities.

One reality is that presidents and PMs foolishly believe that economists know what they are talking about. Our PM was confidently predicting we were heading for an 8.5% unemployment rate a few months ago. Like Obama he gave the impression that he himself did the calculations but like Obama with his 8.5% max unemployment he also was caught with his pants down because he trusted economists. In fact he has been wrong on virtually all of his predictions concerning the growth of this economy.

That's a pretty good reason why it's not good to let the government be a major employer as it is historically incompetent at picking winners. One can only surmise it is because of the poor advice it receives from its economists and public service advisers on industry policy etc.

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/12/2009 @ 5:53pm
Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 5:43pm

One reason even Left wing governments over here have privatised things like power generation, power supply, water, sewerage , transport, garbage collection etc was because the unions were massively strong across all those activities and held the state and municipal governments and eventually the people, through high charges, to ransom.

In privatising those assets no monopolies have been allowed which means genuine competition now exists between a large number of players.

Even the federal government got into the act by part privatising its employment, pension etc services. As well as the major telecommunications organisation.

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/12/2009 @ 6:25pm
Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 5:43pm |

How much do you think the water for your project will cost over that 3 years, Happy?

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 6:41pm
The $800 billion stimulus preserved a number of jobs in states across the country.It has created a small of jobs in construction and related road repair activity. I want to see what happens in 2010 because that is the way this political "show" was designed.Obama's economic advice has been horrendous. It has been tilted towards big business,banks and investment institutions. Unfortunately conservatives are more worried about money than people.

Posted by whatozz at 11/12/2009 @ 6:42pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 4:40pm |

Tree Planting over an Area of Approximately 5 Acres Ontario (CA), Riverside (CA) California Department of Transportation Allocation Amount: $510,000.

Enjoy the new trees, Anti.

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 5:11pm

How many jobs did that create?

I didn't ask the govt to plant any trees. It's no business of the Federal govt and is simply another Federal boondoggle and waste of taxpayer money.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 6:57pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 6:57pm |

They estimated 6 jobs, but I honestly can't say.

How many tree-planters would be hired if they follow your advice, cut taxes and spending, and curled up in a do-nothing, Republican ball of Hoover-like, fetal ineptitude?

( zero )

Where do you think the money made by the tree-planters would get spent?

(in Riverside)

Would you prefer zero trees and a tent city on that 5 acres?

(never mind, we know you would)

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 7:17pm
In case you missed it, here's a little gem from the liberal press:

"Global wage convergence is great for the poor but tough on the overpaid. It's possible to run the numbers to show that American manufacturing workers should take average real wage cuts of as much as 20 percent to get into global balance. "

That's from the New York Times business section, Nov. 11, and that's what working people are up against - from supposed Democrats, no less.

"

Posted by Buddy33 at 11/12/2009 @ 7:31pm
Posted by Mask at 11/12/2009 @ 11:57am:

The one sure way Not to stimulate the freemarket economy, (the only way to produce real jobs), is to listen to "non-profit groups and unions (SEIU)". Hello 15% unemployment by Nov 2010. I do not believe for a minute Obama will listen to CEOs, business owners and real economists. It is not in his DNA - his loss. The fact is, Obama surrounds himself with lefties and anti-freemarket types and cannot change his stripes.

Posted by pyeatte at 11/12/2009 @ 7:38pm
Would you prefer zero trees and a tent city on that 5 acres?

(never mind, we know you would)

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 7:17pm

No, I would prefer that any trees be planted by State, County, City, or private enterprises.

It is asinine to have the Federal govt spend our tax dollars on something they have no authority to spend on.

Posted by antisocialist at 11/12/2009 @ 7:48pm
I want more free traders to help us restore American jobs. In case any of these free trade experts is reading,I hope they can go to the train yards in Northeast Minneapolis tomorrow and count the Chinese containers with me.There is a huge stack of them there. Any bets on the number there and in your metro area. No problem though it is going to be great "for us". Dollar Bill Clinton was in on the selling of American workers jobs to Brazil and China.We as a nation were sold out for the large corporations.When will we force our politicians to pay attention. How about term limits and campaign finance reform.They could both be referendums voted on by the public.

Posted by whatozz at 11/12/2009 @ 8:05pm
How much do you think the water for your project will cost over that 3 years, Happy?

Posted by snowball777 at 11/12/2009 @ 6:41pm

Stretching the argument field I see. So, your earlier $510k included what? Lifetime watering by some schmucks including the water.....LOL!

Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 8:21pm
Posted by whatozz at 11/12/2009 @ 8:05pm

The "free traders" and other manufacturers would certainly create those jobs if the American people would only buy their goods. The American people I guess are just as sensible as Australians who mostly buy things at the best price.

Hide behind tariffs and the standard of living of the people declines. Even those who lose jobs and have to live on the dole will do it better on the cheaper imports.

Incidentally I've been surprised by how many made in USA items are now appearing in our shops. A lot of these are engineering components which do compete in price and quality with goods from say Taiwan. No one competes with China on price.

The American goods from what I've seen are very high quality.

Which given the volume and variety of exports to this country alone indicate to me that American manufacturing is doing OK.

And someone over there knows how to play international "free trade" and the FTA game.

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/12/2009 @ 8:49pm
Mayor Joe Quimby, anxious to give the appearance of action without actually doing anything, announced the creation of a "blue-ribbon commission." Lenny responds earnestly, "Did he say a blue-ribbon commission?" -- prompting Carl to say, "Well, you can't do any better than that!"

Posted by gangpapist at 11/12/2009 @ 9:09pm
Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 8:21pm | Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 5:43pm |

I wish you the best of luck finding a landscaper who will only charge $4.16/hr to water 3200 trees 60 hours a week for 3 years.

Posted by snowball777 at 11/13/2009 @ 12:13am
When something is "job one" do you handle it this way? Obama is going to wait til next month to set up a blue ribbon panel made up of executives, CEOs, small business leaders, and others. Does that sound like job one?

Where I work we still use a vendor to screen all resumes so that we never have to see an American's resume. We only get foreigners on H-1B work visas. We are laying off men and woman in their 50's and the next week hiring guys from India in their 20's.

Our own government issued a report (see USCIS) stating that H-1B was full of fraud. And yet Obama keeps this job killing federal regulation.

And now we have these Obama apologist, just like the Bush apologist, telling us to keep waiting. Stay the course.

This kind of weakness on the left is what helps the extreme right grow. Liberals need to recognize that they have a part in creating the extreme right because they stand by smooth talkers like Obama.

Ask yourself this: If Bush did the things Obama is doing what would you do?

Posted by masher at 11/13/2009 @ 01:11am
Posted by pyeatte at 11/12/2009 @ 7:38pm

Didn't answer my question...how many jobs will Steve Forbes create if we give him a big tax cut? How many will Exxon-Mobil create?

Posted by Mask at 11/13/2009 @ 07:47am
Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 8:21pm | Posted by Happy at 11/12/2009 @ 5:43pm |

I wish you the best of luck finding a landscaper who will only charge $4.16/hr to water 3200 trees 60 hours a week for 3 years.

Posted by snowball777 at 11/13/2009 @ 12:13am

Can't let go a losing argument, huh? That's why you Libs keep pouring other peoples' money into shit holes!

Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 09:22am
Economic Stability in Afghanistan: A Practical Solution

Sustainable economic opportunity is essential in Afghanistan to build political stability. The largest current source of revenue for the Afghan farmer is the cultivation of poppies for heroin production. The illegal nature of poppy production requires that the farmers pay for the protection of various militias, war lords and power brokers to ‘allow' them to grow poppies. The product is then sold to the same agents that are protecting them from government intervention. At the end of the day the farmer gets very little but has no other practical option. The solution is to replace poppy production with industrial hemp production and have the new government guarantee the price, market and processing of the raw hemp. The farmer would end up with more revenue from the legal openly grown hemp than he currently does from growing poppies. This eliminates a problem crop and the illegal cash that it generates and replaces it with a sustainable, high value crop that can be used to create energy, fiber, oils, medicines and many other essential products. All of that with the added benefit of freeing millions of farmers from dependence on armed protection. 31 countries currently cultivate hemp for industrial and medical use to provide for a growing demand for this renewable resource including Canada, China and France. The case for Hemp is this, the short growing period, hardiness and drought tolerance of hemp, combined with the already existing cultural knowledge and experience of the Afghan farmers make the substitutional process ‘Poppies for Hemp' a plausible and possible agricultural strategy with predictable social, economic and political results, prosperity and peace. It is time to rethink the value of Hemp for the sa

Posted by timedonkey at 11/13/2009 @ 11:20am
Obama will give some more speeches, set up a panel and do little ...

Posted by mmckinl at 11/13/2009 @ 11:58am
you paid $52 aussie dollars for a pair of yank pliers?

sounds like you got yanked...

look, as a demon trained madman monk i respect certain aspects of satanism and its intellectual parents, nihilism and objectivism. lots of wisdom, and hell, for wicked bastards like you and me, it serves us well...

but most of the marching morons out there are too stupid to realize they aren't the geniuses they want to be, or see themselves as.

and lord knows, croc, when that sort of bloke finds himself living in a big house with a big car and a beautiful wife and gets it into his half empty head that he deserves all that crap and is the embodiment of the uberman...

lord help us...

but that's the way the donkey farts and no matter where you go there you are...

the typical, average, magalomanical, luciferian, wannabe is just not qualified to be the real moral-by-choice-and-commitment style sociopath necessary to digest the stark wisdom of the three philisophical paths mentioned above.

homo-inferior doth ever misapprehend his/her self import and virtue, dragged every inch by the insidious pride that fuels the quest for godhood.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/13/2009 @ 12:38pm
Masher:

"Where I work we still use a vendor to screen all resumes so that we never have to see an American's resume. We only get foreigners on H-1B work visas. We are laying off men and woman in their 50's and the next week hiring guys from India in their 20's. " At lower wages, I'd venture to guess.

I hear you Masher; the trouble with some of these free-market dick-heads is they don't understand that you need money to buy things. When you keep trying to buy on credit, eventually the credit runs out. Obviously, for some folks, that's just too hard to understand.

Posted by Buddy33 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:06pm
When talking about unemployment its important to have a historical view. Take a look at this visualization of unemployment that goes back to 1948: http://www.tableausoftware.com/blog/60-years-unemployment

Posted by rptab at 11/13/2009 @ 4:13pm
Can't let go a losing argument, huh? That's why you Libs keep pouring other peoples' money into shit holes! Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 09:22am |

If you were referring to AIG and the Big 5, you might have made a point, but I'm just illuminating the oversimplification that is endemic to you and the rest of the underpants gnomes (Phase 3: Profit!).

Posted by snowball777 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:14pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/13/2009 @ 12:38pm

Oh yes the old homo-inferoirs. I'm with you there bro.

As a bit of a world weary traveler I think most people don't always get what they deserve but most are quite happy with the pittance they've got. We wealthy intellectuals only stir them up.

We used to have about 60% unionised work force 50 or so years ago. 100% compulsory in the Public Service. In the private sector that is down to about 15 percent, maybe less. Which sort of shows the tremendous enthusiasm that the homo-inferiors have for joining us near the top of the money tree.

What I find is that only Lefties and the greedy rich are money hungry even if, in the case of the Left, it is on behalf of the HFers.

For most, money is only required to finance a place to live, spectator sports, family, friendships, mateship activities, such as down at the boozer and even if all that is on the never never who amongst the HFers really cares and in fact they are pretty happy that the Wall Streeters are letting them enjoy the life style of the rich, without having to gather a lot of moss. That more so since the Left mostly has helped destroy for them the prospect of a heaven off the earth.

I think they also know that the Left is really after their souls on the other sort of homo stuff etc, etc that they generally have no interest in.

So if you want to work your guts out to climb up the social ladder the Right will applaud and the Left will despise you because they wanted to get it back off the robber barons to give to you....less a cut that will be used to finance programs the HFers don't want.

Which goes to show some people don't know when they are not wanted.

Of course you are Puritans through and through about money. Us? We are but children of convicts.

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:32pm
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

otto von bismark gutted the german socialist movement by making sure the schmuk, unless hellbound and determined, would feel comfy enough to throw his lot in with the big boys.

which they did through two world wars...

ok, so NOBODY should ever be THAT loyal, but nonetheless its impressive how a TRUE conservative uberman did not let the shackles of OTHER'S ideology prevent him from doing what had to be done.

if some pea brain all hepped up on hardcore aynrando dope can't get it in his head that some aspect or another of his favorite ideology might not apply or might be flawed...

what the hell kind of uberman is he?

he is no uberman. ubermen, homo superiori, are shackled by no ideology. they may find some bit or snippet of this or that - they may even follow a set of ideas, espouse it...

but the ideology is their tool. they are not the tools of their ideology. those folk are homo inferiori.

if the world were run by homo superiori, there would be no need for unions. unions arose because of the failings of homo superior and the triumph of his opposite. the success of the unions was a testament to the triumph of homo superior despite humble origin.

but read ecclesiastes and drink a beer. or two. or smoke a joint. or watch "kill bill part 2". uma thurmond is sexy. stay away from auto-erotic asphyxiation.

and don't get into dangerous ideologies unless you can handle staring into the abyss and the abyss ignoring you...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/14/2009 @ 01:16am
but read ecclesiastes and drink a beer. or two. or smoke a joint. or watch "kill bill part 2". uma thurmond is sexy. stay away from auto-erotic asphyxiation.

and don't get into dangerous ideologies unless you can handle staring into the abyss and the abyss ignoring you...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/14/2009 @ 01:16am

I'll try me hardest...... Hey! who just turned the lights out?

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 04:47am
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 04:47am |

"Son, you'll go blind if you keep that up."

"Dad, I'm over here."

Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 07:03am
lrjones4, wealthy intellectual huh? you need to get over yourself.

Posted by Denise29 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:23am
"Son, you'll go blind if you keep that up."

"Dad, I'm over here."

Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 07:03am

Now now 21. Ibbie is a Catholic lad. We don't want to corrupt him. Do we?

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:44pm
lrjones4, wealthy intellectual huh? you need to get over yourself.

Posted by Denise29 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:23am

Oh yeah. You just want to talk to a foreign boy.

Not much of a pickup line though.

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:51pm
Notice Obama, at APEC in Singapore, is getting a bit of a roasting over US insincerity on free trade. Mexico is leading the charge, with China and Russia in tow.

Notice headline in WP " Obama criticized on trade policy "

Some excerpts:

"A chorus of complaints about U.S. trade policies largely drowned out grumbling over China's turbocharged export machine and threatened to put Obama on the defensive at the Asia-Pacific Economic Cooperation forum. China has ramped up its criticism in recent weeks of U.S. restrictions on imports. And in the hours before the president's arrival, leaders of Mexico, China and Russia broadly condemned protectionism."

"While in Tokyo, Obama underlined the region's importance to the economic well-being of the United States and said China's growth will help, not hurt, America's prospects. Endorsing free trade as the best engine of growth, he pledged to start negotiations over possible membership in an obscure trade pact known as the Trans-Pacific Partnership. "

So there we have it. Another stolen Bill Clinton/ GW Bush policy.

One thing's for sure Obama is a quick learner or who's for Obama is just sucking up to China and will not honour this commitment to free trade?

Looks like the "ors' have it:

"But with other, far more significant trade accords -- including one with South Korea -- formally negotiated but stalled in Congress, there is skepticism that Obama's gesture will lead to much. Indeed, one of the main themes at this year's APEC conference is this: The United States talks a good game on free trade but too often lets politics interfere."

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/15/2009 @ 12:06am
lrjones4, HAHA.

Posted by Denise29 at 11/15/2009 @ 08:53am
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:44pm |

Not very original, but a sin nonetheless.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0AKvRvL5r3A

"...25 maybe 35 cents...but it can adda up..."

----------

Not much of a pickup line though. Posted by lrjones4 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:51pm |

She's just playin' hard to get, mate. Buy her some bitters.

---------

Posted by lrjones4 at 11/15/2009 @ 12:06am |

Funny cartoon about East/West relations:

http://media.economist.com/images/20091114/4609Kal555.jpg

Posted by snowball777 at 11/15/2009 @ 09:12am
Obama's plan will undoubtably be a big handout to big business and will do nothig for the hard working lower and middle classes. ........

do you really belive that this "bailout" will be any different than all the other "bailouts" Obama has delivered.........

A big gift to the multi-national corporations with a nice sounding name that does NOTHING for the underlying conditions causing this disaster.,.......

" We the Corporations of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect marketplace, establish Profits, insure workforce instability, provide for the common defence of corporate handouts, promote the general Welfare of the Wealthy, and secure the Blessings of Greed to ourselves and our subsidiaries, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of Corporations.

In Greed we Trust

Posted by mtdon at 11/15/2009 @ 5:32pm
Obama's plan will undoubtably be a big handout to big business and will do nothig for the hard working lower and middle classes. ........

do you really belive that this "bailout" will be any different than all the other "bailouts" Obama has delivered.........

A big gift to the multi-national corporations with a nice sounding name that does NOTHING for the underlying conditions causing this disaster........

" We the Corporations of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect marketplace, establish Profits, insure workforce instability, provide for the common defence of corporate handouts, promote the general Welfare of the Wealthy, and secure the Blessings of Greed to ourselves and our subsidiaries, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of Corporations.

In Greed we Trust

Posted by mtdon at 11/15/2009 @ 5:33pm