Pelosi's Not-So-Robust Public Option

The public option was always a compromise for serious supporters of health-care reform, who -- like Barack Obama when he was running for the Senate in 2003 -- knew that a single-payer "Medicare for All" system was what America needed to provide health care to everyone while controlling costs.

But, in the reform legislation debuted Thursday by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, the compromise was even more compromised than had been expected.

Pelosi says the legislation is "historic," and celebrates the fact that is does still include a public option -- a component many pundits had said was destined for abandonment.

But, while there is a public option, it is anything but robust.

Progressives believe Pelosi has bent to far to the right.

And The New York Times suggests as much in its analysis, which declares that:

Under pressure from moderate-to-conservative members of the House Democratic caucus, Speaker Nancy Pelosi has decided to propose a government-run insurance plan that would negotiate rates with doctors and hospitals, rather than using prices set by the government...

Ms. Pelosi said the public plan, which she prefers to call a "consumer option," would compete with private insurers. But the speaker was apparently unable to muster the votes needed for the 'robust' liberal version of a public plan, which she has repeatedly said would save more money for consumers and the government.

Translation: The "public option" Pelosi and her team have proposed a plan that would not make payments for care based on Medicare rates, as the Congressional Progressive Caucus and key Senate Democrats have proposed.

Rather, under the Pelosi plan, the rates be tied to those of the big insurance companies. That's a big, big victory for the insurance industry, as it will undermine the ability of the public option to compete -- and to create pressure for reduced costs.

Pelosi's plan also drops a number of provisions that had been advanced at the committee level to promote consideration of "Medicare for All" models and to allow states to experiment with single-payer plans.

That's an especially bitter pill for House progressives, who has won support for state-based experimentation in committee votes.

Groups such as Progressive Democrats of America were quick to raised alarm bells because some of the most innovative responses to the health-care crisis are being forged at the state level. While single-payer proposals are being blocked at the federal level, PDA national director Tim Carpenter says the single-payer fight is ramping up in the states.

"Last week, members of the PDA national team traveled to Pennsylvania for a rally at the capital rotunda in Harrisburg, in support of Healthcare for All Pennsylvania and their single-payer bill," notes Carpenter. "The momentum for single-payer healthcare grows daily. It appears Congress will have to be forced to follow the lead of states like Pennsylvania, California, Illinois, Ohio and Massachusetts --- all working to implement single-payer healthcare at the state level."

House progressives were quick to express disappointment, as they were counting on the House to advance a strong alternative to the Senate Democratic leadership's very weak public option proposal -- which would allow states to opt out of the plan.

Reviewing the details of Pelosi's plan in a passionate speech on the House floor, Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich, one of the chamber's most ardent advocates for reform asked: "Is this the best we can do? Forcing people to buy private health insurance, guaranteeing at least $50 billion in new business for the insurance companies?

Kucinich continued:

Is this the best we can do? Government negotiates rates which will drive up insurance costs, but the government won't negotiate with the pharmaceutical companies which will drive up pharmaceutical costs.

Is this the best we can do? Only 3 percent of Americans will go to a new public plan, while currently 33 percent of Americans are either uninsured or underinsured?

Is this the best we can do? Eliminating the state single payer option, while forcing most people to buy private insurance.

If this is the best we can do, then our best isn't good enough and we have to ask some hard questions about our political system: such as Health Care or Insurance Care? Government of the people or a government of the corporations.

Congressional Progressive Caucus co-chair Lynn Woolsey, D-California, said she and her allies would continue to battle to muscle-up the public option.

"It's not even the fourth quarter,'' said Woolsey, who noted the public option had only recently been dismissed as dead by many pundits. "We will be insisting on (the option) being as strong as it possibly can be.''

Woolsey and other progressive Democrats are set to meet with President Obama Thursday.

"He needs to hear from us that he needs to support the public option,'' Woolsey told the Los Angeles Times. "He's not saying it loud enough. We want to make sure he lets the Senate know he wants a public option in the bill."

The focus on Obama is appropriate. He has the authority, as a man with a bully pulpit and a veto pen, to tell Pelosi that a soft public option is insufficient. At the same time, he can and should be more involved in challenging the absurd proposals -- advanced by conservative Democrats and moderate Republicans -- for "opt-outs" and "triggers," which threaten to weaken the public option to the point of meaninglessness.

Comments (148)

1. " They want Obama to speak up."

   hahahahaha!

   good luck with that one.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 10/28/2009 @ 9:04pm

2. So, Mission not yet Accomplished? But, but......wasn't there a Big Victory for Progressives just yesterday?

   Posted by Happy at 10/28/2009 @ 9:30pm

3. Now they need to hear from him? From us? So another email or phone call? Isn't it clear enough what we want? This Public Option is a pathetic compromise, we need one simple insurance form, one simple insurance company. It doesn't have to be a federal goverment thing, but it does have to be nonprofit and nationwide.

   They all know this but what's stopping them? A post card from YOU? Yeah, right.

   Oh, and if you're in Connecticut, please call Leiberman's office and tell them what you really think.

   Posted by waltham at 10/28/2009 @ 10:21pm

4. It is better to get the Pelosi version than nothing at all. It is all about counting votes and compromising. The worst thing that can happen is to let the "compassionate" conservative Reps get their way and wait 20 more years to straighten health care.

   Posted by Frank42 at 10/28/2009 @ 10:25pm

5. Yes it sure would be nice to see the President at least have an opinion. Just think then there could be a speech and some fanfare. Of course the next day there would be a Rahm sighting and 2 or 3 members of the Administration could leak competing statements. Where is the leadership that I voted for? Where is the Change?What does the populace as a whole need? They need job creation,lower cost credit,lower family costs(insurance) to help them balance their family budgets. Please Mr. President weigh in on this matter. There are things more important to we the people than you attending a fund raiser. You had people excited ,now they are wondering what they voted for. Remember the phrase,we the people.

   Posted by whatozz at 10/28/2009 @ 11:53pm

6. gotta love goldman:

   "For some market participants, however, the openness and transparency of the equity market actually mean they are unlikely to achieve the best price."

   http://www2.goldmansachs.com/ideas/public- policy/3-regulatory-reform/effective-reg-part-4.pdf

   Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 12:39am

7. We all know this deal is going to end up a trigger in the end , but it was fun fighting for it .

   Posted by underoath at 10/29/2009 @ 06:46am

8. Frosty, doesn't it ever worry you that when you and HAPP have congruent posts...

   nobody could tell the difference if not for the "Posted by"?

   heheh

   Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 07:17am

9. Progressives were disappointed, to say the least, as they were counting on the House to advance a strong alternative to the Senate Democratic leadership's very weak public option proposal -- which would allow states to opt out of the plan. -- John Nichols

   Yeah, and I'm "disappointed" every morning that I wake up and there isn't a super model laying next to me begging me to have sex with her.

   You people live in a fantasy world. There was never popular support for European-style collectivism in our healthcare system. The 80% of Americans who are satisfied with there own health insurance wanted the government to find the money to provide healthcare for those who couldn't afford it. They don't want you to mess with what they've already got. But the only way to control cost is to make them pay more for less. That's not the change America voted for.

   You cite polls that says 70% want a public option. I read an article yesterday that demonstrates if you change one word in the poll question ("choice") then the support drops below 50%. And most of the people answering the poll question don't understand the first thing about what a public option entails.

   You people are dangerously out of touch with reality. You are like the people who go postal. They think, "Hey being away from my house for 40 hours a week is already a compromise. Now you expect me to take a 50 minute lunch instead of a 60 minute lunch? Fuck you! I'll kill you all!"

   Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 10/29/2009 @ 07:35am

10. Darin -You are flat out wrong but that's O.K. People don't want their personal ship to sink. You are a supporter of White lines,you know the owner of the Titanic. That is what health care is helping to do to this country. Even C.China is going to have universal health care. Why, because it helps their business sector compete and they know what will happen if the people revolt. Why are we alone in keeping an inefficient system that helps people less and less but benefits a few immensely? Do we as citizens have to embarrass our elected officials into representing we the people? The largest number of people in history donated to a political campaign,where is the collective return to the people. This Administrastion has seemed to forget about this and yes I remember our President was a community organizer. My advice to him is that the community energy ii ebbing and he is the reason for that. Enough speeches that hint at action,speak of action and follow through.

    Posted by whatozz at 10/29/2009 @ 08:08am

11. actually mask, it should worry you that the administration is either so venal or incompetent or both that such a thing could happen.

    that being said:

    i've got happy on ignore.

    i wouldn't know.

    sorry, hap, just couldn't take one more racist comment.

    anyhoo,

    this is funny:

    http://www.walyou.com/img/walyou-post-roundup- 10-r2-d2-hope.jpg

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 08:13am

12. You are a supporter of White lines,you know the owner of the Titanic.

    Posted by whatozz at 10/29/2009 @ 08:08am

    actually, he works for them.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 08:15am

13. Enough speeches that hint at action,speak of action and follow through.

    Posted by whatozz at 10/29/2009 @ 08:08am

    oh, he's following through, all right.

    however, only the obamagarchs are the beneficiaries.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 08:16am

14. President Barack Obama is actively discouraging Senate Democrats in their effort to include a public insurance option with a state opt-out clause as part of health care reform. In its place, say multiple Democratic sources, Obama has indicated a preference for an alternative policy, favored by the insurance industry, which would see a public plan "triggered" into effect in the future by a failure of the industry to meet certain benchmarks.

    The administration retreat runs counter to the letter and the spirit of Obama's presidential campaign. The man who ran on the "Audacity of Hope" has now taken a more conservative stand than Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), leaving progressives with a mix of confusion and outrage. Democratic leaders on Capitol Hill have battled conservatives in their own party in an effort to get the 60 votes needed to overcome a filibuster. Now tantalizingly close, they are calling for Obama to step up.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/24/leade rless-senate-pushes_n_332844.html

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 08:20am

15. Since this supposed "Health Care Reform" Bill is total unmitigated bullshit, I start looking at the possibility of pulling a rabbit out of the hat. Or the old bait and switch.

    How about this scenario? Dennis Kucinich already has a single payer proposal called "Medicare Part E" or Medicare for Everyone.

    This proposal could be entirely passed using reconciliation. Bills passed by reconciliation must be "Budgetary". Since Medicare has already been enacted and in practice since 1965 an amendment to include everyone in it is a budgetary matter. And can be passed with 50 votes in the Senate.

    Unknown to most is the fact that this has already been discussed in Washington in a closed door caucus about 2 weeks ago.

    50 votes is all that stands between getting single payer Medicare for All or having to suck up this cobbled up mess that includes a so-called "Public Option."

    Isn't single payer what the sane among us really want anyway?

    And wouldn't it be sweet to watch all the crooks in Washington and Insurance Company CEO's faint dead away or jump out the nearest window?

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 08:32am

16. Some people discuss wheather or not Obama is playing checkers or chess. Wouldn't it be nice if they were both wrong. And Obama has really been playing Poker?

    But then again, I'm a dreamer and the eternal optimist. And most likely wrong...

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 08:55am

17. Either that or I just released the biggest cat out of the biggest bag ever...

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 08:57am

18. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 08:13am

    Well, of course I disagree with Ignoring Happ.

    If for strategic purposes alone...the fact he's here every day propping up (not diminishing) the idea that there IS a significant segment of the Right that dislikes Obama on racial grounds...and of course how that is fostered by Limbaugh...proves very useful.

    Every "Magic ____" and "Black House" comment indicates that emotion, primarily fear, is all they have left and fewer people would want to be associated with it.

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 09:22am

19. This is one Socialistic Demoncrat program that is DOA thank God for the future of the nation!

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 09:26am

20. Like I said this is as DOA as Reids re-election attempt!

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 09:57am

21. Health and Human Services Secretary Kathleen Sebelius said the federal government has known all along there would not be enough H1N1 vaccine to cover all at-risk Americans and that plans to donate a percentage of the U.S. supply to foreign countries is still under consideration

    What is missing is the Demonization that went on during the Bush years for abject FAILURE of the Obama administration to protect the American people from the flu by assuring there would be enough vacine available! Remember that???

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 10:03am

22. Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 09:26am

    Hey Big! Just remember it's not over until the fat lady sings!

    But given the fact that most of our politicians are bought and paid for you may be right.

    And if so what are you thanking "God" for?

    Don't know about you but if I was to envision a Christian God, especially the Jesus aspect I would not think that a bunch of paid off crooks who are deciding to ensure the death of the sick and curable would be high on that God's list.

    The only God in your pantheon that I can think of that would celebrate Death would be that Satan guy..

    Are you a Satanist? It's O.K. by me if you are. But what about the Big Guy?

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 10:08am

23. Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 10:03am |

    Sebelius announced it on the Daily Show among others....maybe you should invest in one of those fancy crystal-based radios, Rio...your tubes are burned out.

    And isn't this the sam vaccine that you were trying to fearmonger with and refused to take a couple months back?

    Nice 180!

    Posted by snowball777 at 10/29/2009 @ 10:12am

24. This H1N1 vaccine is just fear in a bottle. A distraction. No different really than the seasonal flu.. And a convenient way for the pharma vamps to make a fortune.

    As a former illicit drug user I witnessed many "false shortages" and had contact with the strategy. Hold back the drug and put people in a panic. Then when fear has stirred them up. Flood the market and make a fortune. It's standard procedure.

    People are so gullible. And if any of you want to pump that poison into your body, (H1N1 vaccine) be my guest. Hell, it doesn't even get you high for christ's sake..

    Dumbasses.

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 10:29am

25. Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 09:57am

    Don't need to repeat it, Rio....I got it saved-

    Keep talking, the public option is DOA just like Reid.---Posted by BigPasture at 10/27/2009 @ 2:24pm

    How Many Experts Declared Public Option Dead? posted by Ari Melber on 10/27/2009 @ 08:29am

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 11:21am

26. Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 10:29am

    Why are smallpox and polio no longer a common threat to the public?

    What the F do you know about vaccines and viruses?

    Being an illicit drug user makes you such an expert that you can label it a "poison"?

    You call the leading medical experts "dumbasses", and your just a frickin truck driver.

    You haven't the slightest frickin clue of what you speak, just pure unmitigated emotional bullshit and heresay.

    You can take that opinion of yours and shove it up your ass.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 11:22am

27. 50 votes is all that stands between getting single payer Medicare for All or having to suck up this cobbled up mess that includes a so-called "Public Option."

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 08:32am

    Yeah, that and the support of an additional 75 million Americans.

    50 votes in the Senate can be undone by 51 votes in the Senate 14 months from now.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 10/29/2009 @ 11:28am

28. Well, of course I disagree with Ignoring Happ.

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 09:22am

    yeah, me too.

    it just gets so cumbersome after a while.

    well, if i haven't ignored the viceroy yet, i guess i'll give happy a 37th chance.

    <clik>

    eek!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 11:38am

29. Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 10:29am

    People like you crack me up.

    You shrill that the H1N1 vaccine is poison, even though you know nothing about it.

    However, were you step on a nail, you wouldn't hesitate to get a tetanus vaccination (bacterial).

    If you were bitten by a rabid animal, you wouldn't hesitate to get the rabies vaccination (viral).

    Such wisdom you possess.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 11:41am

30. Yes, these people need more emails, phone-calls, and snail mails - hell they need to see people marching in the street for a Public Option! The truth is the American people need cost controls and ONLY the government is capable of doing that - it's not SOCIALISM - IT IS HEALTH-CARE FOR ALL! These people on the Hill need to realize that they have a choice - they can follow their corporate masters and not give the people what we need, or they be held accountable and voted out during their next election cycle - no matter how much Corporate money they have?

    Posted by Spiritgirl2 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:03pm

31. This is a complete failure of the so called 'democrat' in charge in the House. Pelosi needs will be replaced in 2010, by a Republican.

    Posted by oc2001 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:18pm

32. chaoszen, I have severe asthma, and get my flu shot every year, had my regular flu shot and am waiting for my H1N1, will get it as soon as it is available, I've had the flu and it is nothing to mess around with, I could easily die, so one persons poison could be anothers savior.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:31pm

33. I was too distracted by all the syntax and other problems with this piece to finish reading it. Contact me if you need a good line editor.

    Posted by logonaut at 10/29/2009 @ 12:52pm

34. I have severe asthma,

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:31pm

    ditch the windex.

    ditch the lysol.

    ditch all that poison.

    and eat raw, raw, raw.

    not condescending, just trying to help.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 12:59pm

35. People are so gullible. And if any of you want to pump that poison into your body, (H1N1 vaccine) be my guest. Hell, it doesn't even get you high for christ's sake..

    Dumbasses.

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 10:29am

    What is it about human nature that is so eager to buy into complicated conspiracy theories?

    Occam's Razor is a great principle and usually correct.

    Next he will be telling us how all the major diseases, are actually creations of the pharma industry. No reason to cure cancer, too much money involved in treating it.

    Posted by Extraneous at 10/29/2009 @ 1:02pm

36. I know frosty, and thanks for that, I already do most of that, still have occasional flairups, very scary, so I get the flu shots.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 1:05pm

37. Is anyone really surprised that we are getting a weak public option? It is the only thing that it could be without it being another entitlement program.

    As I have stated elsewhere, I think there is a good chance that the running of the 'public' option will be outsourced to a private company. That it will be mandated to pay for itself and probably not be any cheaper than the private options.

    Those liberals who were hoping it would be a cheap hugely subsidized insurance plan are going to be disapointed, we will be lucky if it is even competitive with the private plans.

    Come on Nichols of course it will have to negotiate with doctors! That is the only way it could work.

    This is not going to be a mini-single payer option. The only way for the public option to compete will be if it is vastly subsidized by taxpayers. That is just not going to happen.

    What our Nation needs is a single payer option, this 'reform' will only serve to postpone that inevitablility. My vote is for this whole HC reform to be scrapped. Because if it even makes things marginally better there will not be the politcal will to make the truly needed changes for decades.

    Posted by Extraneous at 10/29/2009 @ 1:38pm

38. 50 votes in the Senate can be undone by 51 votes in the Senate 14 months from now.----Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 10/29/2009 @ 11:28am

    Darin predicting a Republican-controlled US Senate after 2010?

    I hope so...best reverse barometer out there, except for Maasch.

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 1:44pm

39. Vermont was not mentioned as one of the states where there is an active movement to establish single payer at the state level. We have a very active movement, and who knows, maybe we will be the first....

    Posted by oxfeld at 10/29/2009 @ 1:47pm

40. chaoszen, I have severe asthma, and get my flu shot every year, had my regular flu shot and am waiting for my H1N1, will get it as soon as it is available, I've had the flu and it is nothing to mess around with, I could easily die, so one persons poison could be anothers savior.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:31pm

    I've never had a flu shot in my 60+ years and I intend to make sure I never receive one.

    All you people do is mess with your natural immune system.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 2:00pm

41. we do not need healthcare reform, we need a new goverment, one that actually is interested in the people instead of their own worthless a**es. rebellion, revolution..that is what we need, we currently have what our founding fathers fought against...a country without representation of the people...time to stand up folks....

    Posted by photobum769 at 10/29/2009 @ 2:15pm

42. Time for prayers and reflection America! The soul searching on who owns America is over. Kneel to your corporate masters.

    Posted by CripThink at 10/29/2009 @ 2:18pm

43. Surprise! Pelosi is a sell-out. Surprise! The public option is bullshit. Surprise! The major proposals making their way through the whorehouse known as Congress promise to be little better than the status quo and possibly worse.

    I hope the whole Obamacare/Baucuscare thing tanks completely -- as it looks like it well might -- and we start over with a real debate that includes the unspeakable term: single payer.

    Posted by davidmintz at 10/29/2009 @ 2:35pm

44. Posted by CripThink at 10/29/2009 @ 2:18pm |

    Never.

    Posted by snowball777 at 10/29/2009 @ 2:35pm

45. I hope the whole Obamacare/Baucuscare thing tanks completely -- as it looks like it well might -- and we start over with a real debate that includes the unspeakable term: single payer.

    Posted by davidmintz at 10/29/2009 @ 2:35pm

    Bingo!

    Posted by Extraneous at 10/29/2009 @ 2:48pm

46. "I've never had a flu shot in my 60+ years and I intend to make sure I never receive one.

    All you people do is mess with your natural immune system."

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 2:00pm |

    You also don't believe in treating cancer in children or adults.

    Except when your sister had leukemia and your grandpa healed her by praying over her.

    Why didn't he go to the local pediatric oncology ward and pray over those kids too?

    All blessings and miracles restricted to just you and your immediate family?

    Oh, and I know you consider yourself a doctor, but you will excuse me if I don't take your advice.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 2:51pm

47. Anti, I've had asthma since childhood, and I like living, so don't presume to know what that entails, and I won't tell you how to live and believe, mmmmkay.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 2:54pm

48. I've never had a flu shot in my 60+ years and I intend to make sure I never receive one. All you people do is mess with your natural immune system.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 2:00pm

    how about polio?

    small pox?

    ooh, i bet they gave you all sorts of "shots" in the military.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 3:09pm

49. I always held the conviction that a fascist government is preferable to a Democratic Administration and Democratic Congress. Fascists are predictable and easy to galvanize the rank and file to stand to them. Dealing with Reid and Pelosi is analogous to picking wild Mushroom; the poison is within, however, very hard to detect. The biggest disappointment so far is in our savior from Illinois. The man has walked over every single campaign slogan so far. I am beginning to yearn for the days of Dick Cheney.

    Posted by CripThink at 10/29/2009 @ 3:11pm

50. Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 2:54pm

    Denise, Denise, Denise......

    Larry is a "Prophet of God, Preacher, Counselor, Herbalist Expert, Doctor, Double Nought Spy, War Veteran, Weapons Designer, has cast out demons, and been raised from the dead, and is an insurance saleman.

    He doesn't believe in treating cancer, or vaccinations, or prescription drugs, and would rather die that take a govt. handout.

    He DOES believe you should be able to smoke pot without a prescription, do shrooms, eat coca leaves, etc., whenever you want.

    So don't you dare get that H1N1 vaccination.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 3:13pm

51. You also don't believe in treating cancer in children or adults.

    Except when your sister had leukemia and your grandpa healed her by praying over her.

    Why didn't he go to the local pediatric oncology ward and pray over those kids too?

    All blessings and miracles restricted to just you and your immediate family?

    Oh, and I know you consider yourself a doctor, but you will excuse me if I don't take your advice.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 2:51pm

    You have misrepresented what I've said.

    I don't impose my personal belief on healthcare on anyone else including my own children.

    My grandfather did go to hospitals constantly and pray for people. Some were healed, some weren't. that is up to G-d. And I have done the same for many years.

    I have never suggested that miracles and healings are only for my family. that is just an infantile slur of your own making.

    You're free to do whatever you wish. But it seems all of you people who are enslaved to doctors and drugs aren't doing so well.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 3:20pm

52. how about polio?

    small pox?

    ooh, i bet they gave you all sorts of "shots" in the military.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 3:09pm

    You don't have any choice. I lost one friend who had a reaction to his shots and had a heart attack during his sleep. He didn't die from the heart attack, but from drowning in his vomit that resulted from the heart attack.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 3:22pm

53. "You're free to do whatever you wish. But it seems all of you people who are enslaved to doctors and drugs aren't doing so well."

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 3:20pm

    I would wager that were you facing the most gruesome of deaths by tetanotoxin or the rabies virus, that you couldn't get your ass to a real doctor fast enough for one of those vaccinations.

    Or are you just scared of needles?

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 3:30pm

54. But then again, I'm a dreamer and the eternal optimist. And most likely wrong... Posted by chaoszen at 10/29/2009 @ 08:55am

    --you sir, are no optimist.

    Posted by urmygyro at 10/29/2009 @ 3:40pm

55. I happen to know that Anti had to have tons of shots to go overseas, as I'm a airforce brat and I had to get a ton of shots!!!No fun no way!

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 3:54pm

56. What part of majority in both houses & big presidential victory do the Democrats not get?

    I didn't realize that "change we can beleive in" translates in politicia-speak into "give a new gang a chance to feed at the trough of corporate largess."

    Any Congressman or Senator who continues to accept the insurance that comes with their job, but stands in the way of American citizens having the same coverage is the lowest form of scum.

    Posted by TrishR at 10/29/2009 @ 4:04pm

57. The 80% of Americans who are satisfied with there own health insurance...

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 10/29/2009 @ 07:35am

    Are you sure that's "satisfied with there own health INSURANCE" and not health CARE, Darin? There is a big difference, you know.

    Posted by cka2nd at 10/29/2009 @ 4:04pm

58. Ralph was right.

    Posted by kevinparcell at 10/29/2009 @ 4:22pm

59. I always held the conviction that a fascist government is preferable to a Democratic Administration and Democratic Congress. Fascists are predictable and easy to galvanize the rank and file to stand to them...I am beginning to yearn for the days of Dick Cheney.

    Posted by CripThink at 10/29/2009 @ 3:11pm

    This is very dangerous thinking, akin to the Stalinist line, "After Hitler, us." Well, thanks a lot, but there are 14-20 million people who might have lived if the Stalinists had worked with the Social Democrats to keep Hitler from gaining the levers of state.

    Just to make sure, the Bush/Cheney Administration was not fascist. Fascist regimes tend not to tolerate multi-party democracies, even of the bourgeois variety. Dennis Kucinich and even a sell-out labor leader like Andy Stern would be in a concentration camp or dead if we'd been living under fascism. The left has been revived in Latin American under bourgeois democratic regimes, not the semi-fascist military dictatorships that allowed little or no space for counter-organizing.

    Now, if you had said that having a right-wing bourgeois regime in power is sometimes better than having a liberal bourgeois regime, i.e., the GOP instead of the Dems, you'd have an argument. We got the Americans With Disabilities Act under Bush the first. As Alexander Cockburn has argued, Clinton screwed up the environment more than either Bush I or Reagan because the environmental movement fought the latter while cherishing their access to the former. But this is still all reformism and doesn't address the need for working class political independence to overthrow the whole rotten system.

    Posted by cka2nd at 10/29/2009 @ 4:24pm

60. Denise

    There are many natural treatments for asthma that will relieve the symptoms and even completely remove asthma in some cases.

    Prescription for Nutritional Healing is the most sold and read book on natural health in the world with over 7 million copies sold.

    My family uses it as our primary health reference. It is written by Dr and his wife (who is a Certfied Nutritionist).

    http://tinyurl.com/c5gfdg

    Also, check out Dr. David Dahlman who states that he is successful in completely eliminating asthma in patients by natural means.

    http://www.drdahlman.com/asthma-video.shtml

    And this source containing an article on clinical Chinese studies treating Asthma with Acupuncture

    http://www.alternativesforhealing.com/

    I hope there is something from these sources that helps you.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 4:24pm

61. OK, forget about progressive health care insurance. How about a progressive jobs program (WPA style), a progressive pull out from the middle east, a progressive economy--not based on the Wall Street gambling casino, but based of manufacturing????

    (depending on Obama, or Pelosi or Reid or Frank or Summers or Schumer is a fool's dependency.)

    Posted by hkaplan at 10/29/2009 @ 4:54pm

62. .......doesn't address the need for working class political independence to overthrow the whole rotten system.

    Posted by cka2nd at 10/29/2009 @ 4:24pm

    Is there ANY "class" that is truly politically independent? Is there ANYthing on this earth or in the universe?

    For your own (maybe even those close to you?) HAPPINESS, accept our "system", as the best of the "rotten"!

    Posted by Happy at 10/29/2009 @ 5:12pm

63. The only "robust" thing being circulated in Congress is its innate ability to avoid erring on the side of the under- and uninsured American public. Every proposal thus far, with the exception of Dennis Kucinich's, has been watered-down, anemic, severely compromised--or an outright betrayal of what We the People have been promised. But, no big surprise there. The government IS a corporation and despite Barack Obama's well-intentioned assertions and eloquent resolve, Sisyphus is having trouble getting this century-old boulder up the hill. Kucinich is right in asking, "Is this the best we can do?" It's a poignant reminder that yes, this IS the best Congress can do, having been bought and sold by the AIGs and pharmaceutical giants who could care less about human lives at stake. And yes, this IS the best Congress can do, thus highlighting the crumbling foundation of a system that builds bombs and inflates the military with no apparent regard for the costs of war, while at the same time kvetching about how much "robust" health care might cost. We're at a sad crossroad where human life is worth far less than institutions and structures. Human life is pretty much worthless, if we look in the mirror and see our reflection strewed with bodies of those who made "the ultimate sacrifice" and inncoent civilians who had that choice made for them. We can add to the carnage those who are starving to death, homeless, and without medical care--right here in the good old U.S.A., where "robust" is a word that's become an ironic joke. As Tristan Tzara wrote, "If there is a system within the lack of system, that of my proportions, I never apply it. In other words I lie." All I can muster is a a flaccid "DADA."

    Joanie Fritz Zosike

    Posted by DizzyIzzy at 10/29/2009 @ 5:52pm

64. I am always hearing that Social Security, Medicare and Medicaid will have no money in the year so-and-so. Now they want to add the largest entitlement program of all with absolutely no idea how much it will cost nor how they are going to pay for it. Obama says it won't add one dime to the national deficit. The Dems say it will be covered by cost savings in other areas plus a tax increase on the wealthy.

    First off, politicians have never been able to cut the cost of anything, especially waste and corruption. And a tax increase on the wealthy won't even cover the increased bureaucracy that a program that covers 96% of the population and includes a public option would require.

    There is only one way to pay for it. A large tax increase on the rich and the middle class. Obama, Pelosi and Reid can't say it because they know it would kill the deal. And the opposition would scare the public by screaming that it will ruin the economy and any chance for our economic recovery. And so they talk about everything but a large tax increase.

    I estimate that within two years after passage, the health care reform program, plus what we will need to fund Medicare and Medicaid, will require a tax increase up to about 45% maybe even 50%. Obama may try to hold off the increase until after he is re-elected, but he may not be able to. That is the harsh reality of entitlement programs.

    Posted by bean22 at 10/29/2009 @ 6:15pm

65. I think know where MASK went to! He is obsessed with that Lou Dobbs guy, and now I know why and what he has been doing!

    "Police in New Jersey are trying to determine who fired a bullet that struck CNN commentator Lou Dobbs' home as his wife stood nearby.

    State police Sgt. Stephen Jones says Dobbs' wife and driver were outside the home Oct. 5 when they heard the gunshot. Jones says the bullet didn't penetrate the siding and fell to the ground outside.

    Dobbs mentioned the bullet earlier this week on CNN and his radio show.

    Dobbs says he had been receiving threatening phone calls for weeks. On his radio show, he connected the gunshot to his advocacy for a crackdown on illegal immigration and to his opponents' rhetoric.

    The home is on a farm in Wantage, about 50 miles northwest of New York City."

    MASK is "the shooter on the grassy mound"! What are you using Mask an FLN or Sig Sau ???

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 6:23pm

66. The biggest disappointment so far is in our savior from Illinois. The man has walked over every single campaign slogan so far. I am beginning to yearn for the days of Dick Cheney.

    Posted by CripThink at 10/29/2009 @ 3:11pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    NOW THAT IS FUNNY! I guess I underestimated you dude!

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 6:25pm

67. Thank you for your thoughtfulness Anti, I will look into it, but even if I didn't, that was very nice, agains thanks.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 7:00pm

68. Uh, that was suppose to be "again" thanks.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 7:03pm

69. Thank you for your thoughtfulness Anti, I will look into it, but even if I didn't, that was very nice, agains thanks.

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/29/2009 @ 7:00pm

    You're welcome. A couple of years ago, I helped another liberal blogger get low cost diabetes meds. He couldn't afford what he was currently getting.

    I'm not a supporter of the status quo despite what many accuse me of. I believe there are many ways if you want to find them to cover most of our health needs.

    As a libertarian, I want people to enjoy freedom from both big govt and big corporations.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/29/2009 @ 7:06pm

70. Posted by BigPasture at 10/29/2009 @ 6:23pm

    Still about 80% sure you're lying, RIO.

    Watch Lou Dobbs...listen to Limbaugh...don't miss Special Report or Beck or Hannity on FNC.

    Your use of "Dobbs" for "Dodd" was a classic Freudian slip.

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 7:08pm

71. Anti's got a few things going for him. In his immediate life context, it appears at least, he respects folks of all skin colors

    And his healthy (excuse the pun) skepticism of Western medicine / openness to 'alternative' medicine is cool.

    Simultaneously, being mainly centered at blue (see Spiral Dynamics), he's unconsciously at war with himself, but projects the darkness out, daily, in thousands and thousands of posts. Super rigid pattern. Ultra hellfire sure, so nonexistent is any bridge between the dark/light within, that not a single sliver of views is for him in the least bit hypocritical or inconsistent or grandiose.

    He is One with God within, Ego on 'roids, forever and ever singing "I know best / I am unique / implying-or-claiming 'You aren't'" and the endless looping narcissistic variations of same, while denying this with equal all/nothing vehemence.

    Y*A*W*N

    Posted by winyahn at 10/29/2009 @ 7:24pm

72. Campaign finance reform would do wonders for congress. It wouldn't help with those folks who tend to blame illegal aliens or gays for a lot of the problems, but it certainly would help out with those congressional "representatives" who are beholden to the insurance companies and health care affliates for their campaign funding.

    Posted by crosswords at 10/29/2009 @ 7:24pm

73. An outcome that included a major compromise was inevitable since Blue Dog votes are a necessity. By coming up with a bill that includes a public option and is projected to reduce the deficit by $104 billion over 10 years, Obama can now claim victory on two fronts by supporting it. Don't be surprised to see Obama use the public option and deficit reduction as his two main talking points

    But public option or not, the proposal remains a poor solution that fails the definition of reform. Congress has essentially created Medicaid for the working class. The care provided will be both third-rate and stingy. Insurers will now have yet another place to dump off potentially undesirable customers.

    Our current reform debate is just one more indication that politics has degenerated into a completely money driven game. Particularly shocking is just how far the the Democratic party has moved from its traditional stances. A party that once proposed Wagner- Murray- Dingell or Kennedy-Griffith as their main reform proposals now trashes single payer, content to offer vague promises to vote on HR 676 or include a provision for state level single payer systems. Proposals that were once considered compromises are now accepted as the best we can hope for.

    And yet progressives are still unable to act as anything more than a movement to elect Democrats. Take a coalition such as HCAN. HCAN not only formed right as the Obama campaign gained momentum, but proceeded to support a reform exactly mirroring Obama's proposal. The organization's survival is entirely dependant on the success of the Obama proposal: if he fails, the organization will simply die off.

    Posted by nkurland at 10/29/2009 @ 7:24pm

74. Maybe this point's already been made. I confess to not having read the upper thread. But there's room for higher than Medicare doc/hosp rates AND still cutting into the existing 30% profit margins mercenaries Aetna-Joey Liberman and his backseat lover Mitch McConnell are getting ready to protect. Un-Americans need this foot in the door if they're going to get anywhere close to their secret Marxist goals.

    Posted by winyahn at 10/29/2009 @ 7:29pm

75. Campaign finance reform would do wonders for congress.

    Posted by crosswords at 10/29/2009 @ 7:24pm

    Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

    Posted by winyahn at 10/29/2009 @ 7:31pm

76. Looks like the fight's not over yet. Let's hope for the best and not forget come election those who fought against it. I won't forget Mr. Donnelly in Indiana, or Mr. Bayh.

    Posted by esd2000 at 10/29/2009 @ 7:55pm

77. Campaign finance reform would do wonders for congress.

    Posted by crosswords at 10/29/2009 @ 7:24pm

    Agreeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed.

    Posted by winyahn at 10/29/2009 @ 7:31pm

    time's running out.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 9:17pm

78. Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 09:22am

    Do you really need the daily Happy reminder on this point? I don't.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 11:41am

    Newsflash: chaoszen doesn't know what he is talking about...again. I can't want for the digest version of his post about fluoride in the water.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/29/2009 @ 12:59pm

    Have to repost that link I gave you in another thread. It's the fructose.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 2:51pm

    Much of modern medicine is about on the level of witch doctors and chicken bones. That said, vaccines are developed in tests that show they are effective. In short, one of the best medicines out there, and it is profound ignorance to avoid them out of some sorry assed notions of "natural". Without antibotics and vaccines, a lot of folks in the last century would have naturally died.

    Just to get it in, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to self-administer a vaccine along with a hit of marijuana if I was so inclined.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/29/2009 @ 10:09pm

79. "Just to get it in, there's no reason I shouldn't be able to self-administer a vaccine along with a hit of marijuana if I was so inclined."

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/29/2009 @ 10:09pm

    Even George Will's column today is against my position.

    I'm gonna lose this one, eventually.

    The pendulum swings.

    That doesn't mean I have to like it.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 10:28pm

80. Still about 80% sure you're lying, RIO.

    Watch Lou Dobbs...listen to Limbaugh...don't miss Special Report or Beck or Hannity on FNC.

    Your use of "Dobbs" for "Dodd" was a classic Freudian slip.

    Posted by Mask at 10/29/2009 @ 7:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Still about 80% sure you're lying, RIO.

    80% must be your shooting score at 1 inch groupings at 100yds!

    Out of curiosity I went to CNN website and looked up this guy up! It seems he is an Economist and is described as;

    "Lou Dobbs is the anchor and managing editor of CNN's Lou Dobbs Tonight. Dobbs also anchors a nationally syndicated financial news radio report"

    He must be against Obamanomics and Pelosicare which is why MASK hates him !

    Posted by BigPasture at 10/30/2009 @ 12:28am

81. Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 10:28pm

    Well, I feel you there. There's a lot going on in this world I'm not a big fan of either, but I try to keep the faith.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/30/2009 @ 05:56am

82. Posted by BigPasture at 10/30/2009 @ 12:28am

    Again, too suspicious, Rio.

    Subbing "Dobbs" for "Dodd"? I could see it if you had said "(Barney) Frank and Todd" or "Frank and Dodge".....but given your rampant nativism, just TOO interesting that you might have had "Lou DOBBS" on your mind and got a bit mixed up.

    That plus the fact that your talking points just "too easily" coincide with the Day's Daily Drudge/Limbaugh/Hannity/Beck Talking Point.

    And of course your constant declarations of being an "independent". Naturally if you were to admit to being "just another ditto-head" or "a loyal Fox News watcher"...would cut into that defensive bullflop as it would simply make you "just another conservative Republican".

    On their own, individually, wouldn't be definitive. Together, with the years of posts you've made here, add up to a pretty good picture of somebody who is NOT "an independent thinker who finds conservative news on his own"...but just another Happy or Sjchermak type.

    Posted by Mask at 10/30/2009 @ 07:31am

83. C'mon, JOHN, Pelosi's already a socialist idiot and your STILL not happy?

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/30/2009 @ 08:20am

84. ARRAY(0x8f601a4)

    Posted by ccrider27 at 10/30/2009 @ 08:30am

85. For all the nice folks here that seemed a little too enthusiastic about taking shots at my credibility concerning the H1N1 vaccine:

    H1N1 vaccine available in the U.S. has been analyzed by independent labs and even the FDA has released package inserts for the 4 approved H1N1 "swine flu" vaccines. You can read the list at, H1N1 "Swine Flu" Vaccine Package Inserts (CSL, Novaris, Sanfori & MedImmune) or by going to the FDA official website.

    The vaccine contains among other ingredients thimerosal (mercury), formadehyde, squalene, recombinant HIV proteins and peptides, and live virus. Some say the U.S. vaccine does not contain the squalene adjuvant, but samples analyzed from U.S. stocks indicate that they do.

    Squalene is strongly linked to Gulf War Syndrome an autoimmune disease.

    If you want to pump that crap into your body, that's your decision.

    I decided not to. And I have had pneumonia 5 times. And have been told that I would not survive another case. But then again they told me that after the 4th time..

    And thanks for jumping on me on this subject. It is quite a left-handed compliment!

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/30/2009 @ 08:40am

86. Pelosi's already a socialist idiot Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/30/2009 @ 08:20am

    A socialist idiot? Does that mean in your opinion all socialists are idiots? Or just Pelosi? If the former, you just called myself and probably all the people in about 40 other countries "idiots".

    Gee Chippie, now that's what I call a massive generalization. Even for a real idiot like yourself..

    Posted by chaoszen at 10/30/2009 @ 08:57am

87. Posted by chaoszen at 10/30/2009 @ 08:40am

    I'm not going to get in a back and forth with you. But, since you are so deeply misinformed, I'll offer a little help.

    1. Thimerosal (mercury): Administered in many vaccines over the years and is still in MMR and all flu vaccines. MMR is notable because it is a vaccine requiring of children prior to entering kindergarten and has been taken by the vast majority of people in this country.

    Want to run the risks of MMR against the risk of thimerosal? The choice is clear. Add in that many people get a flu shot every year - like anyone in the health profession - and this is weak. You've probably ingested more mercury from fish.

    2. Formadehyde: It has a long history of use in vaccines. Rare and minor side effects.

    3. Squalene: 2 million doses of Chiron's influenza vaccine have been administered with it. If it were causal in Gulf War Syndrome, why did it, according to your argument, only occur there and get that name?

    http://tinyurl.com/29np5h

    4. Recombinant HIV proteins and peptides

    This is crap.

    5. Live virus: Present in many vaccines since the body is vaccinated because it learns how to fight a weakened form of the disease.

    Personally, I applaud your views on vaccines because it is an example of Darwin's theory at work. Don't take them. Die sooner because you are worried about the small risks over the big ones - and if you manage to reproduce, Darwin will catch up at some time.

    However, in case there is someone out there that is on the edge as far as their Darwin's profile is concerned, I wanted to have this out there so they might be better served than to follow your foolish advice.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/30/2009 @ 09:55am

88. This is truly a rare occasion, but I want to commend and join with Chaoszen on the dangers of flu vaccines.

    There is no testing

    I recommend that you visit sites like the National Vaccine Information Center

    http://tinyurl.com/mrgeet

    And Dr Joseph Mercola (one of the few medical doctors I respect because of his belief in natural medicine) writes on the dangers of flu vaccines and how to prevent the flu naturally

    As Dr Mercola notes, "It is worth noting that no agency has ever established a "safe" level of ethylmercury exposure, which is the form of mercury found in the vaccine preservative thimerosal."

    http://tinyurl.com/yzrea8q

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 11:04am

89. Posted by srjenkins at 10/30/2009 @ 09:55am

    Nailed it, srjenkins.

    Like all those "I won't take cowpox to protect me from smallpox....I might turn into a COW!" folks from the 19th Century.

    Died off...leaving the smarter ones to survive.

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 10/30/2009 @ 11:43am

90. What am I to do, file for long-term disability? Though I am willing and able to work, and, more importantly, was a productive permanent employee for more than 6 years, I've been without permanent employment since January 2008. And as long as insurance is employer based, I suspect that that won't change.

    In theory, insurance companies are forbidden from sharing confidential information with employers. But Oregon Counseling, a consumer protection non-profit agency, notes in the article "Confidentiality: The Risks of Using Mental Health Insurance," the line between employers and health care companies has become "increasingly blurred" because employers and companies work together to cut costs. "As insurance companies increasingly centralize their records, they provide access to multiple sources that are not policed by any external agency and are essentially on their good behavior to not misuse their access to your records."

    Yesterday, Speaker Pelosi unveiled health care legislation that, among other things, eliminates the pre-existing condition clause. However, I'm not convinced that the new legislation will change business as usual, as employers will continue to rely on the same means they've always used to deprive those of us with mental illness employment opportunities. For as health insurance is employer based, I'm a liability.

    Nothing changes if nothing changes. An amendment allowing states to create state-level single-payer healthcare has been stripped out of the House healthcare bill, after having passed in committee back in July by a vote of 27 to 19. This amendment must be restored, for as long as health insurance is employer based, those willing and able to work with medical histories similar to mine will likely remain unemployed.

    Posted by mpollard27 at 10/30/2009 @ 11:45am

91. ARRAY(0x8f601a4) Posted by ccrider27 at 10/30/2009 @ 08:30am |

    LINKEDLIST(0xdeadbeef)

    Posted by snowball777 at 10/30/2009 @ 11:51am

92. The pendulum swings. That doesn't mean I have to like it. Posted by Benchrest at 10/29/2009 @ 10:28pm |

    It's well worth the increased liberty, tax savings from incarceration costs, and could be a (modest) source of revenue.

    Who better to help offset the cost of a public option than stoners?

    Posted by snowball777 at 10/30/2009 @ 11:57am

93. Posted by snowball777 at 10/30/2009 @ 11:57am

    Yeah, I lost that one.

    Like Gen. Custer said:

    "Where'd all these damn indians come from?!"

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:04pm

94. Snow, "modest" savings? I think it could be the beginning of a great deal of revenue! (Eventually)

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/30/2009 @ 12:16pm

95. Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 11:04am

    "My bologna has a first name..

    It's O-S-C-A-R..

    My bologna has a second name..

    It's M-E-Y-E-R..

    I love to eat it every day...

    And if you ask me why I'll saaaaayyyyyyy....

    Cause Oscar Meyer has a way..

    With B-O-L-O-G-N-A!!!!!!!!"

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:40pm

96. Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:40pm

    You just keep putting poisons and toxins in your body. Keep putting drugs that kill over 110,000 people every year and another million hospitalized just from the EXPECTED side effects.

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 12:46pm

97. Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 12:46pm

    Larry, the very first thing you learn in Toxicology is that EVERYTHING is a toxin.

    Period.

    WATER is a toxin.

    If you drink too much, and you can, you will die of Hyperhydrosis.

    And the list goes on and on.

    All things are dosage related, or more to your language, all things in moderation.

    You're giving me a headache. I think I'll go take some acetylsalicylic acid (aspirin).

    A very efective, safe medicine if taken at the correct dosage, derived from willow bark.

    If you take too much it becomes a toxin, and you will bleed to death.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:58pm

98. Now I've got that damn jingle stuck in my head!

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 1:09pm

99. Larry, the very first thing you learn in Toxicology is that EVERYTHING is a toxin.

    Period.

    WATER is a toxin.

    If you drink too much, and you can, you will die of Hyperhydrosis.

    Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:58pm

    You need to sue your professor.

    Water is not a toxin-Water can contain toxins, natural (arsenic or formaldehyde), bacterial, viruses, parasites.

    http://tinyurl.com/y9kj3yf

    You cannot get hyperhydrosis (you misspelled it) from drinking too much water. Hyperhydrosis is EXCESSIVE SWEATING and is not caused by drinking too much water. I consume an average of 2 gallons of water per day-all from the tap.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hyperhidrosis

    Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 1:20pm

100. "Water is not a toxin"

     Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 1:20pm

     Water IS a toxin if taken above normal dosages and can and has been fatal.

     Wikipedia:

     "Water intoxication (also known as hyper-hydration or water poisoning) is a potentially fatal disturbance in brain functions that results when the normal balance of electrolytes in the body is pushed outside of safe limits by over-consumption of water.[1] Normal, healthy (both physically and nutritionally) individuals have little reason to worry about accidentally consuming too much water. Nearly all deaths related to water intoxication in normal individuals have resulted either from water drinking contests, in which individuals attempt to consume high amounts of water, or long bouts of intensive exercise during which electrolytes are not properly replenished, yet excessive amounts of fluid are still consumed.[2]

     Forgive me for going by memory.

     Hyperhydration, not hyperhydrosis.

     Better yet, water inTOXICation.

     Ron White was right. There are some things you can't fix.

     Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 1:31pm

101. Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 1:31pm

     Keep in mind these factors-

     1. Larry's political/ideological opposition to government health care of any kind.

     2. His "neo-hippie" "wholesome lifestyle" talk...by which he eschews anything pharmaceutical for wheat germ and raw pebbles or whatever.

     3. His "Don't use medicine OR doctors...when God decides it's time for you to go....Go!" Neo-Luddite Christian evangelicalism rejection of modernity.

     Naturally all of these occuring in his SENIOR years as he'd no doubt have to admit the took pharmaceuticals and went to doctors for years....and naturally if it hurts younger people, he'll be long dead before he gets blamed for his influence.

     Posted by Mask at 10/30/2009 @ 3:11pm

102. "...and raw pebbles or whatever. "

     Posted by Mask at 10/30/2009 @ 3:11pm

     Mask, you always make me laugh.

     I beginning to think Larry is ol Ule Gibbons.

     Pine cone eating tree hugger.

     "Ever eat a skunk's ass? It's mighty nutritious!"

     Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 3:25pm

103. Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 3:25pm

     I believe the term is crunchy conservative. The point about anything can be a toxin, from water to oxygen, is a good one.

     Posted by srjenkins at 10/30/2009 @ 4:20pm

104. Have to repost that link I gave you in another thread. It's the fructose.

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM

     Posted by srjenkins at 10/29/2009 @ 10:09pm

     man, you just ruined halloween {;+]

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/30/2009 @ 8:35pm

105. man, you just ruined halloween {;+]

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/30/2009 @ 8:35pm

     good!

     Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 10:00pm

106. Rooster Cogburn: "Why, by God, girl, that's a Colt's Dragoon! You're no bigger than a corn nubbin, what're you doing with all this pistol?"

     Mattie Ross: "It belonged to my father, he carried it bravely in the war, and I intend to kill Tom Chaney with it if the law fails to do so.

     Rooster Cogburn: "Well, this'll sure get the job done if you can find a fence post to rest it on while you take aim."

     Mattie Ross: "I'll walk over there by myself."

     Rooster Cogburn: "You scared of the dark?"

     Mattie Ross: "I've never been scared of the dark."

     Rooster Cogburn: " Well if I had a ol big horse pistol like that I wouldn't be scared of no "boogerman".

     Mattie Ross: "I'm not scared of no "boogerman".

     Well there you go Larry. Apparently Colt Dragoons fend off boogermen.

     Just remember that it's just little kids in costumes, so maybe you oughta just try to wing em.

     If you can find a fence post to rest it on.

     Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 10:28pm

107. excellent video, srj.

     gonna have myself a pepsi right now!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/30/2009 @ 11:20pm

108. Just remember that it's just little kids in costumes, so maybe you oughta just try to wing em.

     If you can find a fence post to rest it on.

     Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 10:28pm

     No thanks, you can keep your halloween

     Posted by antisocialist at 10/31/2009 @ 12:24am

109. Today's new Halloween healthcare bill unveiled in House is just a scary as the last. No matter what kind of costume they want to disguise it with, it will raise Medicare and other premiums, raise taxes, while slashing Medicare coverage for seniors. This is not reform, this is abuse. But, that is Halloween health care and it is coming to your door.

     Trick or treat? It will be a treat for the special interest groups, but it's a trick on the American people, especially the seniors.

     And that's just the way it is.

     Posted by BigPasture at 10/31/2009 @ 01:28am

110. Just as a heads up there is a homeopathic alternative to the H1N1 vaccine. It's called "Influenizinum 200c" The best brand is "Boiron" as it includes the latest virus.

     It is taken by mouth in globules. 3 or 4 globules initial dose then the same 2 weeks later and then once a month thereafter through the flu season.

     You can check it out on the "google". It is inexpensive and does not contain any nasty chemicals.

     I'm taking it. No flu yet. It's supposed to be more effective than the vaccine.

     Just sayin..

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 08:26am

111. No matter what kind of costume they want to disguise it with, it will raise Medicare and other premiums, raise taxes, while slashing Medicare coverage for seniors. Posted by BigPasture at 10/31/2009 @ 01:28am

     Gee wizz Rio, your crystal ball must be smokin' hot with all those wingnut talking point predictions. Or did you meet the Devil at the crossroads and sell your soul for the powers of prognostication?

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 08:35am

112. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/30/2009 @ 11:20pm

     I thought it might be something you'd like. It's the first really good argument I've seen explaining the significant rise in obesity and what to do about it.

     It also makes it clear that it's not only an issue of calories - but type of calories. I have generally avoided that way of thinking because I think people can get bogged down in the pseudo-science that passes as nutrition, which ignores the body as a whole and focuses on "ingredients", rather than do something about their weight problem. Still, this is good information - particularly on Halloween.

     Posted by srjenkins at 10/31/2009 @ 09:02am

113. gonna have myself a pepsi right now!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/30/2009 @ 11:20pm

     I always squirm in an unpleasant way when one of those ads paid for by the American Beverage Association, The National Restaurant Association and the Grocery Manufacturers Association invades my space on satellite.

     One of them shows a "loving" concerned mom patting her children on the head while carrying a grocery bag. She looks sternly at the camera and pleads with "Washington" not to tax her precious "Juice Drinks and Sodas".

     Notice the reference to "Juice Drinks", not juice at all, but just more liquid candy like the "sodas". She acts like the government is preparing to place an outrageous tax on rice or bread. "We just can't afford any more taxes right now!" she wails.

     But I guess mommy doesn't mind that we spend 51% of our tax dollars on the military, to use for bombing and killing people in other countries. I guess mommy doesn't mind that if we don't enact some sane trade policies to bring jobs back to this country that her little ones may someday be drinking their "sodas" in Iraq or Afghanistan in between being shot at.

     Or that all the juice drinks and sodas she is providing her children may one day kill them.

     What a crazy squirrel world we live in...

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 09:53am

114. Sometimes for reasons I don't quite understand, I will wander into a McDonalds or Wendy's or an All You Can Eat Buffet and just watch the obscenely fat families waddle to the trough.

     The pudgy little fat faced kids with the now bright but soon dull eyes of a diabetic will excitedly review the menu. Their expression's remind me of junkie who is about to score. Whatever fatty food's they decide on will inevitably be followed up with a gigantic colorful flagon of bubbling liquid candy.

     I watch them eat until I feel the need to vomit, and then leave.

     As I walk away I vividly remember the seven years I spent as a heroin addict.

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 10:24am

115. Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 1:20pm |

     You definitely can drink enough water to screw up your electrolyte balance causing cardiac problems and/or give yourself an osmotic cerebral edema.

     "I consume an average of 2 gallons of water per day-all from the tap."

     Hmmmm....makes ya wonder.

     Posted by snowball777 at 10/31/2009 @ 10:35am

116. Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 09:53am |

     I love the attention to detail in these bits of propaganda:

     - Her roots are showing...indicating that she's so concerned about money she's foregoing her normal hair-coloring ritual in these tough times

     - She and her children are all nearly emaciated, so you don't get the idea that it's just a bunch of whining fatties

     I laugh my ass off at these lame attempts by business (owned by certain famous polygamist churches) to play to populism in defense of their industry even though they know damn well that they'll simply pass the cost onto their customers.

     Posted by snowball777 at 10/31/2009 @ 10:40am

117. Posted by Benchrest at 10/30/2009 @ 12:58pm

     "A very effective, safe medicine if taken at the correct dosage, derived from willow bark."

     As long as you don't have an allergy to it.

     One man's salve is another's toxin; something to consider when we decided to outright ban this or that.

     Posted by snowball777 at 10/31/2009 @ 10:44am

118. I consume an average of 2 gallons of water per day-all from the tap. Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 1:20pm

     This statement confuses me. Are you getting your water from a well? When you say the "tap" I assume that you are on city water. Most people who have their own well do not phrase it that way. When I was on well water I always referred to it as, "my well water" or "the aquifer".

     If you are drinking city water, it is part of the commons. In other words, you are drinking water that is made somewhat drinkable by a common use of tax dollars. Which makes it "Socialist Water". And on top of that city water is chock full of pesticides, hormones, antibiotics and all sorts of nasty stuff that the local water company cannot afford to take out because people like you don't want to pay for the technology to do it. If you drink it straight out of the tap with no in home filtration system you are drinking many of the things that you object to.

     Paint me confused..

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 11:38am

119. I watch them eat until I feel the need to vomit, and then leave.

     As I walk away I vividly remember the seven years I spent as a heroin addict.

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 10:24am | ignore this person | warn this person

     Exactly why I never eat out more that two to three times a year at MOST! You walk in see the "herd" of fattened cows and steers, order small, and leave before you lose it!

     Posted by BigPasture at 10/31/2009 @ 2:34pm

120. I consume an average of 2 gallons of water per day-all from the tap.

     Posted by antisocialist at 10/30/2009 @ 1:20pm

     LEFTIST, MARXIST, SOCIALIST MUSLIM!!!!!!!!!!!

     "WESTERN GETS $1.61 MILLION FOR KEY WATER PROJECTS WITH PRESIDENT OBAMA'S SIGNATURE"

     Riverside, CA – October 28, 2009 – Two of Western Municipal Water District's highest profile drought-proofing projects in the Inland Empire received major boosts today as President Barack Obama signed a law granting $1million for the Riverside-Corona Feeder and $610,000 for a water conservation project at the Seven Oaks Dam. Congress had included the funding in the Fiscal Year 2010 Energy and Water Appropriations bill."

     "

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/31/2009 @ 3:10pm

121. Posted by oc2001 at 10/29/2009 @ 12:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     you're kidding yourself.

     Posted by emile duBois at 10/31/2009 @ 3:41pm

122. If you are drinking city water, it is part of the commons. In other words, you are drinking water that is made somewhat drinkable by a common use of tax dollars. Which makes it "Socialist Water". And on top of that city water is chock full of pesticides, hormones, antibiotics and all sorts of nasty stuff that the local water company cannot afford to take out because people like you don't want to pay for the technology to do it. If you drink it straight out of the tap with no in home filtration system you are drinking many of the things that you object to.

     Paint me confused..

     Posted by chaoszen at 10/31/2009 @ 11:38am

     I don't have a city water system. We buy from a regional agency, Eastern Municipal Water District. I also pay for all of my water use (about $200 per month).

     <As with many other public entities, EMWD is authorized to exercise the power of eminent domain, to levy and collect taxes, to fix, revise and collect rates or other charges. The district may also issue bonds, borrow money and incur indebtedness.

     Municipal water and sewer rates are not subject to regulation by the Public Utilities Commission of California. EMWD customers instead are represented by a board of five directors. They are elected by registered voters to four-year terms in divisions representing comparably sized populations.>

     I have septic though, not sewer, and I live on a private road which I am responsible for maintaining.

     But I have never once said that state and local govts don't have a right to charge taxes or fees.

     Posted by antisocialist at 10/31/2009 @ 6:57pm

123. John, great reading, sharp on every point, but you need a proofreader.

     Posted by prime30 at 10/31/2009 @ 7:22pm

124. SOCIALIST WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     COMMIE FLUIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     UNCONSTITUTIONAL LIQUIDS!!!!!!!!!

     $92 million in stimulus money to aid Inland water recycling projects

     03:37 PM PDT on Monday, June 1, 2009

     By JANET ZIMMERMAN The Press-Enterprise

     The largest local award -- a 1 percent loan for $38.4 million -- is expected to go to Eastern Municipal Water District in Perris to improve and expand the 1970s-era Moreno Valley Regional Water Reclamation Facility, which pumps 16 million gallons a day of treated sewer water. Eastern is the fourth-largest user of recycled water in the state.

     The two-year project is expected to begin this summer, creating 115 construction jobs and one full-time operations job with the district, said Bonnie Wright, the district's grant and loan administrator. The project was awaiting loan funding from the state, at 3.05 percent interest, when the plan for stimulus funds was announced.

     "We're pretty excited about it, because it saved us $8 million" in interest, Wright said.

     YEAH!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/31/2009 @ 8:12pm

125. SOCIALIST WATER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     COMMIE FLUIDS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     UNCONSTITUTIONAL LIQUIDS!!!!!!!!!

     Eastern Municipal Water District Washington D.C. Trip May 18 - 20, 2009

     EMWD participants: Director Ron Sullivan, Tony Pack, and Claire Harrison

     SAWPA participant: Celeste Cantu

     Van Scoyoc Associates participants: Thane Young and Laura Morgan

     Monday, May 18, 2009

     Director Sullivan, Tony, Celeste, and Claire met with Thane Young and Laura Morgan of Van Scoyoc Associates to discuss the goals and itinerary of the trip. The primary goals of the trip were to:

     1. Galvanize EMWD's Congressional delegation, committee staff, and agency staff to apply pressure on the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service (FWS) to obtain a decision from the FWS Carlsbad Office for EMWD's SJIRRP.

     2. Position EMWD favorably for leftover American Recovery and Reinvestment Act of 2009 (ARRA) funding (note: Thane and Laura will not be able to attend any meeting or portion of meetings where ARRA is discussed, per Presidential order)

     3. Discuss SAWPA's One Water, One Watershed (OWOW) collaborative process.

     4. Discuss funding needs for SAWPA's SARI line.

     5. Discuss the following legislation:

     a) S. 1005/HR 1262 SRF Funding

     b) S. 531 Energy and Water Integration Act of 2009

     c) S.787 Clean Water Restoration Act

     d) Chemical Facility Security Act

     e) Clean Renewable Water Supply Act

     THE FEDS ARE TAKING OVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 10/31/2009 @ 8:14pm

126. Is this the BEST we can do?

     No, John Nichols, it's not! Why don't you start crying for a little tort reform in there? I notice you're real quiet on that one.

     It doesn't bother you one bit that every single Democrat Representative is supported primarily by their state Trial Lawyers Association, does it?

     The fact that you are instantly called "Out Of Order" by the Speaker if you so much as mention tort reform on the floor of the House is allright by you, isn't it.

     You progressives are such cowards! You want everything, but you want everyone else to pay for it. Just like that rag you work for - always I get the crybaby letters from your prissy bitch editor - "Please donate", (and help us progressives silence the majority of the citizens of this country).

     Hey, KVH, read my lips: Print something worth selling and the world will beat a path to your bank account. Not true? Ask Bill O'Rielly. Ask Sean Hannity. Ask Rush Limbaugh. Why do you suppose they never have to be running to their subscribers for handouts?

     You libs are so stupid you think you have a right to stuff your senseless crap ideas down everyone elses throat at THEIR expense. FU! Get a real job!

     Posted by Elcobar at 10/31/2009 @ 10:57pm

127. You libs are so stupid you think you have a right to stuff your senseless crap ideas down everyone elses throat at THEIR expense. FU! Get a real job!

     Posted by Elcobar at 10/31/2009 @ 10:57pm

     And who anointed a f**ken jerk like you as the official speaker for the silent Majority? Why don't you shut up your foul mouth and go sound off your trash on Fox News where you belong. Your criminal friends at the insurance companies are responsible for the death of 45,000 Americans annually; is that of any concern to a fake patriot jerk like you?

     Posted by CripThink at 11/01/2009 @ 03:01am

128. Posted by Elcobar at 10/31/2009 @ 10:57pm |

     "Why don't you start crying for a little tort reform in there?"

     Because it doesn't work, for one.

     "It doesn't bother you one bit that every single Democrat Representative is supported primarily by their state Trial Lawyers Association, does it?"

     And Republicans *never* take money from lawyers, right?

     Dem contribs from "Lawyers/Law Firms" Pelosi: $87,950 (top contrib: HEALTH PROS) Hoyer: $130,018 (top contrib: HEALTH PROS) Clyburn: $90,650 (top contrib: pharma)

     Republican contribs from "Lawyers/Law Firms" Boehner: $66,650 (top contrib: insurance) Cantor: $131,300 (top contrib: insurance) Pence: $33,100 (top contrib: securities and investment)

     Get...a...clue.

     "You progressives are such cowards!"

     You conservatives are such idiots!

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 10:34am

129. Republican contribs from "Lawyers/Law Firms" Boehner: $66,650 (top contrib: insurance) Cantor: $131,300 (top contrib: insurance) Pence: $33,100 (top contrib: securities and investment)

     Get...a...clue.

     "You progressives are such cowards!"

     You conservatives are such idiots!

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 10:34am

     typical deceitful ploy from a leftist. Pick a few exceptions that "appear" to contradict the charge and hope that bloggers don't actually dig deeper.

     In fact, Lawyers give every year approx 80% to Democrats

     http://tinyurl.com/yzbts9g

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 11:56am

130. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 11:56am |

     A "few exceptions" my ass...they're the party leadership, you nincompoop.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 12:00pm

131. coke!

     pepsi!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 11/01/2009 @ 12:39pm

132. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 11:56am |

     A "few exceptions" my ass...they're the party leadership, you nincompoop.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 12:00pm

     Still in denial? 80% to Democrats-you can't run from that figure.

     As Gavin (Danny DeVito) says in War of the Roses "What do you call 500 Lawyers at the bottom of the Ocean? A good start"

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 12:52pm

133. coke!

     pepsi!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 11/01/2009 @ 1:23pm

134. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 12:52pm |

     No doctors, no lawyers, no teachers...only preachers huh?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 2:04pm

135. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 12:52pm |

     "typical deceitful ploy from a leftist. Pick a few exceptions that "appear" to contradict the charge and hope that bloggers don't actually dig deeper."

     All I said was that both parties accept money from lawyers...are you in denial about the 20% of donations that go to Pugs?

     "Still in denial? 80% to Democrats-you can't run from that figure."

     Don't need to...never know when I might need a lawyer to defend me against the big bad government.

     How about "Insurance", Anti?

     2 to 1 donations to Pugs.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 2:34pm

136. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 12:52pm |

     No doctors, no lawyers, no teachers...only preachers huh?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 2:04pm

     Another non sequitur-well no so much on lawyers.

     I've never said anything against people choosing to see doctors. I don't think they are necessary in most cases, but people can see them.

     Teachers, I'm only against public education, not private.

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 2:40pm

137. How about "Insurance", Anti?

     2 to 1 donations to Pugs.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 2:34pm

     that has also changed and is now split, slightly favoring Democrats

     http://tinyurl.com/klxb6v

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 3:03pm

138. In the 2010 election cycle 4 of the top 5 Senators receiving Insurance lobby money are Dems (Grassley-R) is 3rd on the list.

     Schumer receives the most by far of anyone.

     http://tinyurl.com/yhg232r

     In the House, the top 4 are all Dems with Cantor (R) being 5th

     http://tinyurl.com/ylk22xm

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 3:10pm

139. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 3:03pm |

     They know where their bread is buttered...on the winning side.

     "Teachers, I'm only against public education, not private."

     You're against America being competitive with the rest of the world?

     Why do you hate America, Anti?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 4:28pm

140. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 3:10pm |

     "In the House, the top 4 are all Dems with Cantor (R) being 5th"

     Typical deceitful ploy from a con artist. Pick a few exceptions that 'appear' to contradict the charge...

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 4:30pm

141. They know where their bread is buttered...on the winning side.

     "Teachers, I'm only against public education, not private."

     You're against America being competitive with the rest of the world?

     Why do you hate America, Anti?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 4:28pm

     Just the opposite, studies and college entrance exams show that kids that are in private schools or home schooled do better than those in public schools.

     So, it is you then who promote mediocrity and lagging performance.

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 4:31pm

142. "The State is great fiction by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else."

     Frederic Bastiat

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 4:49pm

143. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 4:31pm |

     "...kids that are in private schools"

     Who have well-educated parents, better nutrition, and smaller class sizes; not even close to a fair comparison.

     Link to your 'studies'?

     How many of your 'home schooled' students never take an entrance exam and thus aren't counted in said study (don't forget to count the polygamists who don't teach their kids to read now)?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 4:58pm

144. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 4:49pm |

     "...by which everyone seeks to live at the expense of everyone else."

     This is the primary tenet of capitalism.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 5:07pm

145. "Public schools are government-established, politician- and bureaucrat-controlled, fully politicized, taxpayer-supported, authoritarian socialist institutions. In fact, the public-school system is one of the purest examples of socialism existing in America."

     Professor Thomas L. Johnson

     Communist manifest elements pushed by the left

     1.Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes. (Kelo v New London)

     2.A heavy progressive or graduated income tax. (See Democratic Party)

     3.Abolition of all rights of inheritance. (Estate Tax)

     4.Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels.

     5.Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly. (Federal Reserve)

     6.Centralization of the means of communication and transport in he hands of the state. (FCC)

     7.Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan. (TARP, Obama seizure of GM, AIG, Obama's green legislation)

     8.Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture. (Unions)

     9.Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country. (Urbanization of America)

     10.Free education for all children in public schools. Abolition of children's factory labor in its present form. Combination of education with industrial production, etc. (NEA, Fed funding of Education)

     But these leftists here say they are not marxists?

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 5:10pm

146. How many of your 'home schooled' students never take an entrance exam and thus aren't counted in said study (don't forget to count the polygamists who don't teach their kids to read now)?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 4:58pm

     The home-educated typically score 15 to 30 percentile points above public-school students on standardized academic achievement tests.   Homeschool students score above average on achievement tests regardless of their parents' level of formal education or their family's household income.   Whether homeschool parents were ever certified teachers is not related to their children's academic achievement.   Degree of state control and regulation of homeschooling is not related to academic achievement.   Home-educated students typically score above average on the SAT and ACT tests that colleges consider for admissions.   Homeschool students are increasingly being actively recruited by colleges. Homeschooling may be the fastest-growing form of education in the United States (at 7% to 12% per year). Home-based education is also growing around the world in many nations.   There are about 2 million homeschool students in the United States. There were an estimated 1.9 to 2.4 million children (in grades K to 12) home educated during 2005-2006 in the United States.   A demographically wide variety of people homeschool – these are atheists, Christians, and Mormons; conservatives, libertarians, and liberals; low-, middle-, and high-income families; black, Hispanic, and white; parents with Ph.D.s, GEDs, and no high-school diplomas.

     http://www.hslda.org/research/default.asp

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 5:16pm

147. Another obstacle that seems to be overcome in homeschooling is the need to spend a great deal of money in order to have a good education. In Strengths of Their Own, Dr. Ray found the average cost per homeschool student is $546 while the average cost per public school student is $5,325. Yet the homeschool children in this study averaged in 85th percentile while the public school students averaged in the 50th percentile on nationally standardized achievement tests.

     Similarly, the 1998 study by Dr. Rudner of 20,760 students, found that eighth grade students whose parents spend $199 or less on their home education score, on the average, in the 80th percentile.

     Eighth grade students whose parents spend $400 to $599 on their home education also score on the average, in the 80th percentile! Once the parents spend over $600, the students do slightly better, scoring in the 83rd percentile.

     http://www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 5:19pm

148. Posted by antisocialist at 11/01/2009 @ 5:19pm |

     <Public school advocates could refocus their emphasis if they learned this lesson. Loving and caring parents are what matters. Money can never replace simple, hard work.>

     On this point, I agree, but how does that help a kid born to not-so-bright, not-so-caring parents, not of their choosing?

     I believe in personal responsibility, but the ability to shoulder that burden is built, not found.

     A smart society will do everything it can to guarantee equal opportunity (not results...you drop out: it's on you) to all its people...and that means access to education, in my book.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/01/2009 @ 6:50pm