Buzzflash
del.icio.us
Digg
Facebook
Mixx it!
RedditOutside Washington, there is still a sense that a serious debate about healthcare reform is going on.
In Washington, there is a good deal of fear among informed and engaged progressives that the debate may be done.
Yes, of course, something called "reform" might be enacted this year by a Congress where Democrats control both the House and Senate by overwhelming majorities and signed into law by a Democratic president who says reworking the healthcare system is a top priority of his administration.
But the measure of whether this "reform" really does amount to the change promised by Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign now comes down to a simple question: Will whatever legislation that is enacted create a sufficiently robust government-run "public option" to serve as an alternative to the expensive and restrictive offerings of the for-profit insurance industry?
The answer to that question is taking shape today on the powerful Senate Finance Committee, the last of five House and Senate committees that must advance a health care proposal before the real wrangling begins on Capitol Hill.
Committee chairman Max Baucus, the Montana Democrat who has been accused of doubling as an insurance-industry representative, has proposed a $900 billion plan that would require all Americans to obtain health insurance but that lacks the government-run public health insurance option that is the baseline demand of progressives who would prefer a single-payer "Medicare for All" reform.
Two key Democratic members of the finance committee, West Virginia's Jay Rockefeller and New York's Chuck Schumer, will attempt today to get it to back some form of a public option.
That would bring the finance committee's proposal more in line with proposals already backed by three House committees and the Senate Health, Education, Labor and Pensions Committee.
If they succeed, that will make negotiations to reconcile the differing proposals, which have already begun in the House, a good deal easier. And the public option -- perhaps even in a form similar to Medicare, with lower premium costs and greater flexibility -- would remain a reasonably viable prospect.
If Rockefeller and Schumer fail, the public option will be dealt a serious blow -- and with it the prospects for anything akin to real reform.
To succeed, Rockefeller and Schumer must win broad support from the 13 Democrats on the committee. (The 10 Republicans are expected to vote "no" on the three amendments being offered by Rockefeller and Schumer.)
That won't be easy, as the finance committee's Democratic membership includes a number of senators who have erred on the side of caution when it comes to reform, including North Dakota's Kent Conrad, Arkansas' Blanche Lincoln and, of course, chairman Baucus.
The votes will be close.
The stakes could not be much higher.
Share this article
John Nichols
Breaking news and analysis on political, social, economic and cultural activism that mainstream media commonly ignore.
- Atrios
- Arts and Letters Daily
- The Caucus
- Campus Progress
- Crooks and Liars
- The Daily Gotham
- Daily Kos
- Echidne of the Snakes
- Ezra Klein
- FAIR
- Feministe
- Feministing
- Firedoglake
- Glenn Greenwald
- Gothamist
- In these Times
- Hendrik Hertzberg
- Huffington Post
- Hullabaloo
- Matthew Yglesias
- Media Matters
- Mother Jones
- My DD
- New York Review of Books
- Openleft
- Pam's House Blend
- Pandagon
- Political Wire
- The Progressive
- RaceWire
- Real Clear Politics
- Roberto Lovato
- Romenesko
- Swing State Project
- Talking Points Memo
- Ta-Nehisi Coates
- Tapped
- Tech President
- Tompaine
- The Washington Note
- Utne Reader
- Wonkette
- ZNet
RSS
65% favor public option.
why are we begging? why is the title question even being asked?
Posted by dexter666 at 09/29/2009 @ 10:59am
Can the public option be saved?
You mean the one where government "competes" with private enterprise, but with massive government subsidies? No, that can't be saved.
You mean the one that is "sigle payer by stealth"? No, that can't be saved.
You mean the one where a non-profit government corporation competes without subsidies? No, that will be tried, but will fail miserably.
You mean the one where token subsidies allow a non-profit government corporation to create the illusion that the public option is still alive? That one might make it.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/29/2009 @ 11:16am
Can the public option be saved?
you mean, can our country look at the way other civilized countries run health care, see that they are all much more efficient pricewise and at delivering service...
AND STOP LISTENING TO THE MURDEROUS PARASITES, THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY, AND THEIR STUPID, WICKED, IDEOLOGIZED STOOGES?
the health insurance industry is directly responsible for the needless suffering and untimely deaths of millions in this country. NOW THAT TRAITOROUS TOOL BAUCUS AD HIS BOUGHT AND PAID FOR BUDDIES WANT TO FORCE ME TO FURTHER ENRIVH THOSE PARASITIC MURDERS?
oh homo inferior - your power is yet impressive in our country and far out of proportion to your numbers!!!
Posted by dexter666 at 09/29/2009 @ 11:24am
Whatever passes will be called...
"a socialist take over of our entire health care system" by the Right....unless Michele Bachmann and Jim DeMint write the bill.
and "not good enough" by the Left.
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 11:35am
and "not good enough" by the Left.
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 11:35am | ignore this person | warn this person
not really a left/right issue, except on the wingnut right. issue is stupid-wasteful-profiteering vs. good public health.
Posted by dexter666 at 09/29/2009 @ 11:46am
I just got a phone call from the Senate Democratic Campaign committee for a donation. I told the Lady who called that while I would consider individual appeals, but I was not going to give any money to a Corporate Democrat. I want to know if my money is going to a real Democrat or a closet Republican. No real Democrat would touch that piece of crap coming out of the Finance Committee on health care!
Posted by pjcasey at 09/29/2009 @ 12:19pm
Other civilized countries run healthcare? R u kidding. Survival rates for cancer and other diseases in those countries significantly lag the US. Know how many drugs have been developed in Canada vs the US over the last 40 years? The federal government (depending on the type of healthcare received) already puts a 25-45% administrative burden on healthcare and you think you need more of it. Medicaid (conservatively) suffers from a 10% fraud rate. You want more of that? The ignorance of our electorate never ceases to amaze.
Posted by tiredofpaying at 09/29/2009 @ 12:55pm
There are other polls out there that show the majority do not want govt anywhere near their health care given the govt history of running things..
Post Office, Medicare, the borders...
not enough room to list here...
That is not to say health care reform is not needed...Lord knows it does....
but not this...
there is nothing to save here...if it is shove up our , well, it wont work or last long before it is scrapped.
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 1:04pm
Know how many drugs have been developed in Canada vs the US over the last 40 years?
Posted by tiredofpaying at 09/29/2009 @ 12:55pm
Toronto -- Globe and Mail
Tuesday, Sep. 29, 2009 03:17AM EDT
A new cancer-detecting device the size of a BlackBerry designed by a team of University of Toronto researchers could revolutionize the diagnosis and treatment of a wide range of cancers and other ailments.
Designed with microchip technology, the new device is aimed at eliminating the need for painful biopsies by detecting the presence and severity of cancer via a urine sample. It could also eliminate equally painful wait times patients undergoing cancer diagnoses routinely endure: test results computed by the device can be completed in 30 minutes.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2009 @ 1:04pm
"The ignorance of our electorate never ceases to amaze"
yeah, you should talk.
love you how conveniently gloss over the fact that we spend more on healthcare than every other country on earth, and yet we have millions who can't afford it.
"never ceases to amaze" indeed.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 1:08pm
Survival rates for cancer and other diseases in those countries significantly lag the US.
Posted by tiredofthinking at 09/29/2009 @ 12:55pm
Death from cancer (most recent) by country
Rank Countries Amount
# 1 Netherlands: 433 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 2 Italy: 418 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 3 Hungary: 411 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 4 Luxembourg: 409.7 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 5 Slovakia: 405.3 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 6 Ireland: 357.6 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 7 Czech Republic: 335.4 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 8 New Zealand: 327.3 deaths per 100,000 peopl
# 9 United States: 321.9 deaths per 100,000 peopl
# 10 Australia: 298.9 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 11 Norway: 289.4 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 12 France: 286.1 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 13 Austria: 280 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 14 Sweden: 268.2 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 15 Finland: 255.4 deaths per 100,000 peopl # 16 United Kingdom: 253.5 deaths per 100,000 peopl
••••
"A racial gap in survival was evident, with white patients more likely than blacks to survive, especially breast cancer. "The comparison is confirmed right across the USA, in all 16 states," Coleman says of the racial gap."
••••
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2009 @ 1:15pm
If we do not get a bill that has a stong public option (ideally single payer) the bill should not pass. I will be freaking pissed if they pass a bill that forces me to give money to a private for profit corporation or be fined. Yes, I am doing it now, but the fact that they want to force me to pay for some shareholders profits is basically a legalized corporate tax and if I say no I am penalized. Sorry but FUCK that!. If I am forced to buy health insurance or face a fine I don't want it paying for someones vacation home in the Hamptons.
Strong public option or don't waste anymore time. NO more corporate give aways!
Posted by Extraneous at 09/29/2009 @ 1:18pm
"There are other polls out there that show the majority do not want govt anywhere near their health care given the govt history of running things.."
show me a poll, maasch-asshole, which says that people on medicare/medicaid, don't want "government anywhere near their healthcare".
serious. show me.
i want a link to a poll which states that people on medicare or medicaid don't want the government "anywhere near their healthcare".
show me, or shut up.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 1:19pm
the *only* people who don't want "government near their healthcare" are either very wealthy or incredibly stupid.
and the biggest irony of all is there are actually politicians who don't want government anywhere near their healthcare WHO HAVE GOVERNMENT HEALTHARE.
dick armey, the head of freedomworks, one of the groups fighting healthcare reform, has had government healthcare his entire life.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 1:22pm
"...majority do not want govt anywhere near their health care given the govt history of running things.. Post Office, Medicare, the borders... " YourMama, Tell me how much the private sector would charge for delivering letters to your doorstep 6 days a week? Why is Medicare overhead a fraction of private insurance, while treating those that are the most expensive (and private insurers loathe to cover)? Who would you have protect our borders? Why would we be unable to provide universal coverage when all other industrial countries can? Is our system so corrupt and our leaders so incompetent? Why do those on the right constantly insist on bashing our government - except when it is invading other countries?
Posted by Tatra at 09/29/2009 @ 1:27pm
You mean the one where token subsidies allow a non-profit government corporation to create the illusion that the public option is still alive? That one might make it. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/29/2009 @ 11:16am | ignore this person | warn this person
--sadly this is probably correct. see obama's "i'm not looking to put the insurance companies out of business" for the lone, necessary evidence to support darin's assertion.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 1:29pm
So, let me get this straight.
The guvmint is terrible at running things. Fair enough.
But...our neocon friends cavalierly, almost flippantly at times, cede to this incompetent government's propensity to kill, "in our name", almost at the drop of a hat.
Uh, ok.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/29/2009 @ 1:32pm
Whatever passes will be called... "a socialist take over of our entire health care system" by the Right....unless Michele Bachmann and Jim DeMint write the bill. and "not good enough" by the Left. Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 11:35am | ignore this person |
--Mask is fine with the status quo, so any "incremental" change will satisfy him (especially since it's not a republican making the "change.")
--And, of course, why should any liberal think a bastardized, incredibly weak public option is "good enough"? Because George W. Bush isn't in office? is that enough "reason"?
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 1:35pm
dick armey, the head of freedomworks, one of the groups fighting healthcare reform, has had government healthcare his entire life.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 1:22pm
Darla could you please link the site on government healthcare? As I don't know what everyone who sites government healtcare is talking about? All I could find is the following.
http://www.opm.gov/insure/health/rates/index.asp
If you look, all governement employees have is the option to buy various healthplans, it is affordable, about $200 a month per family, but these are all private plans. It is not much different that what states provide, or large corporations provide to their employees. So what is Government healthcare that Dick Armey gets? Just curious.
Posted by Extraneous at 09/29/2009 @ 1:38pm
If we do not get a bill that has a stong public option (ideally single payer) the bill should not pass. I will be freaking pissed if they pass a bill that forces me to give money to a private for profit corporation or be fined. Yes, I am doing it now, but the fact that they want to force me to pay for some shareholders profits is basically a legalized corporate tax and if I say no I am penalized. Sorry but FUCK that!. If I am forced to buy health insurance or face a fine I don't want it paying for someones vacation home in the Hamptons. Strong public option or don't waste anymore time. NO more corporate give aways! Posted by Extraneous at 09/29/2009 @ 1:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--absolutely correct extraneous. being forced to pay for "health care" (read: corporate welfare to health insurance companies) would be worse that leaving the system as is.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 1:41pm
A new cancer-detecting device the size of a BlackBerry designed by a team of University of Toronto researchers ...
It could also eliminate equally painful wait times patients undergoing cancer diagnoses routinely endure:
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2009 @ 1:04pm
America develops drugs that keep the sick alive longer. Canada develops tests that make socialized medicine more palatable.
Does this surprise anyone?
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/29/2009 @ 1:57pm
"America develops drugs that keep the sick alive longer"
but america makes people sick by.....denying coverage.
" So what is Government healthcare that Dick Armey gets? "
medicare.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 2:06pm
and btw, darin, if more and more americans need drugs to keep them alive, then we have even more serious problems than i thought.....
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 2:09pm
".. YourMama, Tell me how much the private sector would charge for delivering letters to your doorstep 6 days a week? .."
Posted by Tatra at 09/29/2009 @ 1:27pm
So far the PO fell $8 billion short to deliver..what junk mail?
I pay everything on line and use UPS or GEDEX if I need something immediatley...
I won't waste my time or yours getting into a proof /no proof why the PO is nothing but a union shop that can't be closed down ...
your a lib, you think its a great deal..I am a libertarian/conservative who knows it couldn't stand on its own in the real competetitive world...we will never agree so lets leave it at that.
Medicare pays the Drs, hospital or service provider a fraction of the cost, and medicare can decide how much it will pay for any service, period.
Many Drs opt out..same for insurance companies who dictate price,..whe the entitiy decides the price for any service someone else provides, rest assured quality and quantity will collapse simultaneously.
Don't miss understand my revulsion at govt control over health care for a lack of need recognised by me and others, of health care reform.
Start with laws suits and work your way down.
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 2:15pm
I'm glad at there is some hope the government run healthcare provision might survive. My sister who was a republican now favors a public plan option when she got stuck with thousands of dollars for a short hospitalization. And she had private insurance!
Posted by nursevic at 09/29/2009 @ 2:18pm
America develops drugs that keep the sick alive longer. Canada develops tests that make socialized medicine more palatable. Does this surprise anyone?
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/29/2009 @ 1:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--not at all. There are billions and billions of dollars to lose annually if people don't become "addicted" to the medicine (and medical services) that drug companies and doctors have to offer.
And Darla's right, of course, but for the reasons Darin listed, not because of denial of care, but because the "care" is designed to keep people dependent on the care.
Take heart burn, for example. There are companies who sell medicine that they want you to take it for life...for heartburn! Don't change your diet...just take this medicine...EVERY DAY...FOR LIFE!
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 2:18pm
Dloon,
Go to Gallop web site , read the polls, and interpret what you read...
Rassmusen has 56% against, Gallop has 60% saying govt plan will kill us with cost, majority of elderly dont want it at all...
80% in America are satisfied with their health care and only 15% cite availability as a problem, cost being number 1 concern...
I had read that 40% of the unisured DON NOT WANT insuurance, by choice...
the bulk of those who want govt are those under $30k a year in income,65% of blacks and 50% of non whites want govt health care. This group traditionaly relies on govt for most of its exoistance in the form of some sort of govt check..so no surprise there..
Tell me Dloon, can you name the place where I can go to get govt health care now? They farm it all out to private concerns for the most part..and only pay the "cost"..
Is it the profits insurance compaies make that bothers you or is it the fact that you have to pay for your health care that bothers you?
And, please, try to clean out your mouth...try brushing...you are foul at best...you long since exposed you mental slowness here.
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 2:27pm
A victory today for the Constitution!
the Senate Finance committee just voted down the public option!
<Senate Finance Cmte Tackles health care Public Option Today
The Senate Finance Cmte. defeated the Rockefeller public option amendment by 8 - 15 and are now considering another from Sen. Schumer (D-NY). Currently, the Committee's bill does not include a public option.>
http://www.c-span.org/
<Key Senate panel rejects public health plan
Outcome of vote on government-sponsored insurance was expected
WASHINGTON - A key Senate panel on Tuesday voted against creating a new government health insurance plan to compete with the private market.
The 15-to-8 vote in the Senate Finance Committee could forecast the fate of the public option in the Senate as a whole.
The outcome was expected but still a defeat for liberals who view government-sponsored insurance for the middle class as a key component of President Barack Obama's health care overhaul.
Five committee Democrats, including Chairman Max Baucus, joined with all 10 committee Republicans to defeat the measure by Democratic Sen. Jay Rockefeller of West Virginia.>
http://tinyurl.com/yad358o
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 2:29pm
" the entitiy decides the price for any service someone else provides, rest assured quality and quantity will collapse simultaneously."
rest assured? new zealand, canada, australia, united kingdom, scandinavia, germany, france, and more, do better than the united states in the top 5 available metrics (quality, access, efficiency, equity, and healthy lives), and at a fraction of the cost.
that is a fact, maasch.
and we rank 50th, out of 224, in terms of life expectancy.
so, you are dead wrong on your claim that quality will "collapse."
maasch, you're an old man, with old ideas.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 2:35pm
Posted by dexter666 at 09/29/2009 @ 11:46am
More dichotomy, dex. "merely a choice between evil and good"??? Little polemic, huh?
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:36pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 2:29pm
If, IF, I were a liberal or progressive Democrat, I would support running a candidate from the left against every single Finance Committee Senator who voted against the Public Option in the next primary. Take a page from the right and punish the trimmers and compromisers, even if it means momentary setbacks.
Since I am not a Democrat, all I can counsel is for the working class to dump the Dems en masse and form it's own political party independent of the twin parties of Capital.
Posted by cka2nd at 09/29/2009 @ 2:45pm
Posted by cka2nd at 09/29/2009 @ 2:45pm
And of course "Millions will come flocking to a Workers' Party, millions that don't vote now because they feel powerless and left out of the process"....
right?
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:47pm
Whatever passes will be called...
"a socialist take over of our entire health care system" by the Right....unless Michele Bachmann and Jim DeMint write the bill.
and "not good enough" by the Left.
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 11:35am | ignore this person | warn this person
Why the hell do you get up in the morning?
Gosh, you are like some Charles Dickens character who seeks to dash the hope of children for a brighter tomorrow.
"If I give ye this farthing for a week of yer labor, I will not suffer to hear yer complaint that it is not e'nuff to feed ya, and ye shall be grateful that I even pay you a wage at all. Better to get something, than nothing at all. Now, off with ya, and I'll expect ya back at the crack of dawn."
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 2:47pm
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 2:47pm
What's your choice, OV?...."all or nothing, dammit!!!!"?
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:49pm
maasch, you're an old man, with old ideas.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 2:35pm
And you want access to my labors.
And you are a stoner, who is not getting any younger or more intelligent. You are a big part of the problem in this country or any other place where input is required to increase the lot of all.
A load, unemployable under any condition..a net loss for all around you yet you want to decide how the fruits of THEIR labors should be "redistributed"...you were born in a world hundreds of years past you and your capacitys.
Again, is it the profit you are against or it the idea of paying for your own health care that gets you?
For if it is the profit, then you are just another lefty with communist tendencys,..if it is that you have to pay your own way and just don't want to, then you are a load..
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 2:55pm
This vote today is just round 1..
The loons in congress will paint it another color(probably green for ALGORE) and call it something else...this is far from the end.
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 2:57pm
What's your choice, OV?...."all or nothing, dammit!!!!"?
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"Of course kind sir, I will take yer farthing gratefully, being that it is the best that you can do, and the best that I can do. Better to suffer a slow starvation on a morsel of bread, than to have no bread at all."
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:04pm
and we rank 50th, out of 224, in terms of life expectancy.
so, you are dead wrong on your claim that quality will "collapse."
maasch, you're an old man, with old ideas.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 2:35pm
Another Darla myth.
US life expectancy is virtually identical to that of the European Union
In fact, the EU rate experienced a 1.75% DECLINE last year while the US has had steady increases for more than a decade
Current EU rates 77.32 overall male: 74 years
female: 80.84 years (2008 est.)
http://tinyurl.com/ydc9ss5
<Life Expectancy at All Time High; Death Rates Reach New Low, New Report Shows U.S. life expectancy reached nearly 78 years (77.9), and the age-adjusted death rate dropped to 760.3 deaths per 100,000 population, both records, according to the latest mortality statistics from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).>
Current US rates
Overall 77.9
Men 75.3
Women 80.4
So the US is higher overall by 1 tenth, with the men about .4 higher than the UE Men, and the EU women about .4 higher than the US women
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 3:04pm
John Nichols:
"But the measure of whether this "reform" really does amount to the change promised by Barack Obama's 2008 presidential campaign now COMES DOWN TO A SIMPLE QUESTION: Will whatever legislation that is enacted create a sufficiently robust government-run "public option" to serve as an alternative to the expensive and restrictive offerings of the for-profit insurance industry?
The answer to that question is taking shape today on the powerful Senate Finance Committee...."
End quote.
....AND THE ANSWER IS IN:
DOWN TO DEFEAT| 3:51 p.m. The Schumer amendment picked up two Democratic votes over the Rockefeller amendment, winning over Bill Nelson of Florida and Mr. Carper of Delaware. But the bill still went down to defeat, with 10 in favor and 13 against. (In 13-10 majority Dem commitee).
~Way to go Obama and the Dems! And thanks for the phone call this morning from the DSCC (I see Pervis Casey --above-- got one too) asking for a contribution.
Here's my answer to that: "Fuck You".
Sincerely, ~B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:08pm
Here's my answer to that: "Fuck You".
Sincerely, ~B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Fuck em all Kool!
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:11pm
Posted by cka2nd at 09/29/2009 @ 2:45pm And of course "Millions will come flocking to a Workers' Party, millions that don't vote now because they feel powerless and left out of the process".... right? Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:47pm | ignore this person |
--don't challenge the status quo when Mask is around...he's an ardent "realist'" (which means he claims he's more mature and satisfied with "incremental change")
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:22pm
Darlalonn,
your "new ideas"are govt control of everything..... And it gets rejected by every generation.
You need to think a little more through the smoke
Posted by YourJomamma at 09/29/2009 @ 3:23pm
Hey Jomamma, does your mother let you out of the house with that dirty mouth? It needs to be washed out with soap.As far as HC don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, get what we can now for HC, and hopefully add to it later, yea, yea, I know, "hope" is about all I have left, and no one is going to take it away from me.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:23pm
"Fuck em all Kool!"
~OneVote
....and let God sort 'em out.
Yeah, this'd all be funny if it wasn't so equally depressing. I've gone more and more into a sort of zen mode of late to protect my sanity.
The time to get active and put pressure on Obama was as soon as he secured the nomination last June and flew his true colors at the AIPAC grovel-fest within the week.
The fact that progressives could never conjure up the appropriate amount of anger and energy even as Obama sold us out back in May on health care --when he dropped single-payer as even a bargaining chip-- will become the signal moment in the downward spiral of this administration.
Can't say I (and many others) didn't see it coming. Yet, the reality will be sinking in soon I suspect.
And it's not gonna be pretty.
Peace out, ~B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:25pm
Relationship with CIA. An October 3, 1986 MFR indicated that Fiers chaired a "final meeting" on October 2, 1986 concerning preparations to implement the $100 million support program that Congress was about to approve for the Contras. According to that memorandum, Vortex/Universal would be used under subcontract for logistical flights. An April 7, 1987 memorandum described Palmer as the focal point for obtaining pilot crews, mechanics, and spare parts. I'm not so sure about all this other redacted and speculative chit chat. What I do know is this. I personally worked with Tony Granims, from 1985 through most of 1987. He was contracted with CIA to run covert flights for the contra operations involving top secret governmental support of contra military and paramilitary activities in Nicaragua, despite congressional prohibition of this support. CIA's Central American Task Force, Alan D. Fiers, Jr., ``dovetail'' CIA activities with those of North's contra-resupply network, in violation of Boland restrictions. Tony was one of the best pilots I have ever flown with; he was focused and fearless pilot. Unclassified however redacted CIA documents details Granims in the operations. In addition to the unclassified Volumes I and II of the reports, a brief classified report, Volume III, has been filed with the Special Division. The classified report contains references to material gathered in the investigation of Iran/contra that could not be declassified and could not be concealed by some substitute form of discussion.
Posted by Roger7708 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:25pm
It is a $900 billion plan that in both its senate and house guises includes enlarged eligibility for Medicaid. That funding however will be substantially by the states, instead of the federal govt. In short this is a trick to make it seem the medical reform costs are below a trillion dollars, when in fact they will far exceed that.
Yesterday's Wall Street Journal had an op-ed ‘Max's Mad Mandate.' It called Baucus's bill ‘the mother--and father and crazy uncle--of unfunded mandates.' That is about right.
And it comes from the party that has vowed transparency and responsibility for turning an unsustainable medical cost curve, down. On June 13 Obama said, it was his job to achieve that reduction, because if he did not those costs would wreck the economy.
Well the Democrats are busy throwing dust in people's eyes, and have forgoten all about their avowed responsib
This from the people who for eight years accusing the Bushites of lying, obfuscating and deceiving the country.
Posted by Pirovano at 09/29/2009 @ 3:26pm
"The time to get active and put pressure on Obama was as soon as he secured the nomination last June and flew his true colors at the AIPAC grovel-fest within the week."
Clarification: That would be June of 2008 --of course.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:27pm
The Fabians are a patient lot. This round's lie was good enough. And there'll be other rounds.
No hurry. Someday Americans will be marching in the streets demanding socialism! Without the slightest idea that's what they already have.
That's the goal. Right on track.
Posted by freiheit1 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:28pm
Roger, you're 100% correct about that! Tony Granims was one of the best covert pilots in the air at the time. Granims could put a twin-engine aircraft down any place at anytime, day, night, in the rain, and get her out again in swelter humid heat. I would bet good money he's still bringing it in on a wing and a prayer some place right now. Most of Granims CAT operational details were however, documented in the classified report, Volume III that has been filed with the Special Division. The Independent Counsel Act requires a report as to persons not indicted as well as those indicted. Because of the large number of persons investigated, those discussed in individual sections of the report were limited to those as to whom there was a possibility of indictment. I sure miss the good old days.
Posted by Roger7708 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:28pm
What's your choice, OV?...."all or nothing, dammit!!!!"?
Posted by Mask at 09/29/2009 @ 2:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"Of course kind sir, I will take yer farthing gratefully, being that it is the best that you can do, and the best that I can do. Better to suffer a slow starvation on a morsel of bread, than to have no bread at all."
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--Mask: neither BraveHeart nor ToryTicker; just a CircumstantialClock counting the StatusQuo seconds as they gradually go by...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:33pm
America develops drugs that keep the sick alive longer. Canada develops tests that make socialized medicine more palatable.
Does this surprise anyone?
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/29/2009 @ 1:57pm
actually,
a thirty minute test pee test will be CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER than an INVASIVE biopsy.
and THAT is palatable.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2009 @ 3:35pm
This is going as expected folks. A month ago most people I talked to didn't know what a Public Option was. Most here tend to forget how far ahead of the curve they are with these things.
Let is simmer.
A Mandate with no Public Option will bring'em out. And their target won't be Obama.
Posted by !immutable at 09/29/2009 @ 3:37pm
Hey Jomamma, does your mother let you out of the house with that dirty mouth? It needs to be washed out with soap.As far as HC don't throw the baby out with the bathwater, get what we can now for HC, and hopefully add to it later, yea, yea, I know, "hope" is about all I have left, and no one is going to take it away from me. Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--the "baby" being the medical insurance companies and the "bathwater" being their profits...don't worry, Obama already promised they will be able to wash with our cash for years to come...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:38pm
Gotta love these blog threads too --especially "Roger 7708"......
If reading these threads is any indication of why we are where we are today, I understand completely.
Joseph Heller, you da man.
This is Major Major,
~Out
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:41pm
Again Urmy, settle down, big stuff takes time, patience.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:41pm
--Mask: neither BraveHeart nor ToryTicker; just a CircumstantialClock counting the StatusQuo seconds as they gradually go by...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person
A man without hope or vision, or a shill for the Third Way.
Is there a sad story behind Mask?
Or - is he a propaganda minister of the DLC/DNC?
A man who constantly reminds us of the failings and corruption of our representative government in the guise of incrementalism and politics as spectator sport, rather than participatory activism.
I wonder what his epitaph will read?
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:42pm
Again Urmy, settle down, big stuff takes time, patience.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ah...right on cue...Mask's adoring handmaiden.
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:45pm
Again Urmy, settle down, big stuff takes time, patience. Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--why is that commented directed solely at me? I see many others here disappointed and cynical about Obama (and rightfully so). You're just like Mask. the status quo will barely feel Obama's "plan"...but you're happy 'cause he ain't George W. Bush...so all's well!
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:45pm
Clarification: That would be June of 2008 --of course.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person
As Penny Pritzker and David Axelrod wheeled their Trojan Horse into White House..................
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:48pm
I wonder what his epitaph will read?
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Owned by the Right-Wing Media...
the likes of O'Reilly, Rush and Beck;
of politics he fancied himself an encyclopedia...
but he never would stick out his neck!
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:51pm
Again Urmy, settle down, big stuff takes time, patience.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ah...right on cue...Mask's adoring handmaiden.
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--glad I'm not the only one who's noticed. If patience is a virtue, these two are the most saintly people on earth.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:53pm
Yeah, this'd all be funny if it wasn't so equally depressing. I've gone more and more into a sort of zen mode of late to protect my sanity.
Peace out, ~B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 3:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You are not the only one Kool. Tired of chasing carrots on the stick with commercial breaks every 5 minutes. It will make you crazy. Guaranteed. The ultimate shell game.
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:54pm
--glad I'm not the only one who's noticed. If patience is a virtue, these two are the most saintly people on earth.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person
LMAO!
Yeah....we will get our reward in heaven is more like it...lol........
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:55pm
--glad I'm not the only one who's noticed. If patience is a virtue, these two are the most saintly people on earth. Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person LMAO! Yeah....we will get our reward in heaven is more like it...lol........ Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 3:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--they're more like antisocialist than they realize!
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:56pm
--they're more like antisocialist than they realize!
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 3:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Indeed! Elmer Gantry's of competing faith.
Posted by OneVote at 09/29/2009 @ 4:08pm
once again these are the 'democrats" who stabbed the president in the back.it,s time to dismantle this so called progressive party and start a new true people,s party that caters to the needs of ameircan working and middle class people and not the thieves and gangsters of the insurance and financial companies.
Posted by excalibur999 at 09/29/2009 @ 4:09pm
I am going to vote against all incumbents -- good and bad, democrat and republican, federal, state, local and ultra-local -- where possible for the next two election rounds.
I am going to let them know beforehand that I am doing this.
Posted by delonix at 09/29/2009 @ 4:14pm
most recent life expectancy stats:
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/11/life.expectancy.health.care/
indeed, USA ranks 50 out of 224 worldwide.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 4:28pm
and let's not forget, not only is the USA 50 out of 224 in life expectancy, but it cannot even insure all of its citizens, so like marx said, "quantity effects quality."
and this doesn't even address the issue of substandard care for people who actually have insurance.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 4:32pm
Uh Urmy and one vote, sorry you don't see it my way but it had nothing to do with mask, you especially Urmy can't seem to say anything without bringing up mask, why is that? Got it bad huh?
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 4:41pm
To whom it might serve to soothe:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSgiXGELjbc
I thought it might help expand some horizons here --and offer some relief.
Enjoy, ~B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 09/29/2009 @ 4:50pm
Happ, Larry, JOMAMMA, SJCHER, Darin--you're in good company after all--none other than ANDY WILLIAMS (yes, that Andy Williams) has called the Prez a Marxist, according to U.K. Guardian.
Hell of a voice, back in the day.
MOOOOON Riverrrrrr........
What movie was that from?
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/29/2009 @ 4:54pm
Uh Urmy and one vote, sorry you don't see it my way but it had nothing to do with mask, you especially Urmy can't seem to say anything without bringing up mask, why is that? Got it bad huh? Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 4:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--completely false. I mention Mask a lot. But I'm also a very high volume commenter. He is mentioned in far less posts than he's not. But, that doesn't work for your "I'm obsessed with Mask bit." Which is amusing, b/c if I'm supposedly "obsessed" with Mask--where's your admonition of his obsession with the right-wing media. Whenever he mentions Beck, O'Reilly, Rush et al is usually when I mention his obsession with them...so it seems like you've got it bad for Mask, huh?--in that you give his obsessions a pass ;)
also, you mention me a lot, so what's your thing with me? I didn't address you on this thread until you addressed me .... but those little details are too inconvenient for you
one more thing--I see you choose not to refute OneVote, or me...you simply say you disagree. I understand debate's not your thing and hitching yourself to Mask is your thang...that's cool
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 4:56pm
Umygyro, grow up.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 5:01pm
The problem with this piece of trash from the Finance Committee is this. Who is reformed,the accountants for United Health who through the tough battle of lobbying are going to be awarded with 20 million new customers or the people who voted Democrat in 2008? What a joke ,we need our President to get his ass back home and lead this debate on health care. I don't care about the Olympics,I care about the mess "we" are in. We need to work on this 16-20% of our economy that is health care spending.Personally I will not debate the quality of our care.I will debate the "price" with anyone.Term limits any one,I have had enough of the purchase of our officials.Max and Chuck can join the two"Tom's" as lobbyists. If Harry allows months of debate to end like this he might as well go back to his gig as a tour guide on Lake Havasu.
Posted by whatozz at 09/29/2009 @ 5:09pm
Umygyro, grow up.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 5:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person
--that's your stock response. Nothing substantive, just calling people who voice their substantive opinion and who disagree with you names. Dollars-to-donuts we never see you disagree with Mask on these threads. Cause you don't...you are two peas in a pod. That's why you never call out his obsession with the right-wing media. And you will never criticize Obama here either. Never.
Posted by urmygyro at 09/29/2009 @ 5:09pm
There's almost no hope because we're owned by corporations.
But 76% of the public wants this plan.
75% of doctors favor a public option.
Google it. This is America, where the majority is supposed to rule.
Only the self centered lunatics, birthers, capitalists, and radical neo-cons with conflicts involving evangelical fantasies and who believe Obama is the anti-christ oppose this plan. They believe things about the overall concept that are false. How many times do they need to hear "You can keep your current plan" before they believe it?
They'll never believe it. They'll play the reverse race card and any other card in that old maids deck to keep change from our shores.
Posted by ficheye at 09/29/2009 @ 5:26pm
Meanwhile, Financial Institutions use of derivatives is up 30% over 2008. Instruments that were partially responsible for the mess we are in are cranking up the roulette wheel again.
How's that Financial Re-regulation thingy working out for us?
Posted by sntauri at 09/29/2009 @ 5:32pm
Why are we still discussing the public option? Wasn't it dead weeks ago? Didn't America make it clear that is was not wanted?
1. Enact tort reform. Savings, a trillion over ten years.
2. Make it illegal for private insurers to deny benefits because of prior condition.
3. Strengthen Medicare and Medicaid with savings from fraud and waste elimination and tort reform.
4. Provide voluntary catastrophic insurance at an affordable premium for anyone that wants it, twenty-five dollar a month premium.
5. Support free clinics in poor communities to handle routine health problems, relieving the stress on ERs.
Thats it! Get it done already.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/29/2009 @ 5:36pm
My exhusband had a heart attack a year ago, he's not that old, runs in the family, he was a carpenter and a good one to boot, well his insurance covered part of his illness, and then they (the insurance co) dropped him. He is now on disability, medicaid, and he needs a new heart, he was in the hospital as of this weekend. He won't get the heart. My HEART is broken, and there is nothing I can do for him. I have been fighting for HC since the 80's, I've seen this happen many times, including my now husband, who almost died and we had insurance, and a biz, and owned a whole lot of things we no longer have, so when I hear Urmy or one vote or the rightys come down so hard on those of us that are different, I get mad. That is probably a good thing, so I will keep fighting for HC.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 6:23pm
http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/06/11/life.expectancy.health.care/
indeed, USA ranks 50 out of 224 worldwide.
Posted by darladoon at 09/29/2009 @ 4:28pm
An interesting observation occurs when one examines the CIA Life Expectancy list. Most of the top 25 are Island nations. All are small nations. All have little or no incidents of disease like AIDS. All have homogenous populations. But if you run a comparison to the US in size and diversity, you have to look at someone like the EU. Once you do that, the life expectancies are almost identical.
#1 Macau-Island peninsula 1/6 the size of Washington DC, population just over ˝ million. Former Porteguese colony near Hong Kong. Been there few times. It's a small city plus an int'l airport.
#2 Andorra-plot of land between France and Spain, 2 ˝ x size of DC. Population 84k. Only 12% of population is over age 65.
#'s 3&4 Japan and Singapore, two island nations with homogenous populations
#5 San Marino-1/3 size of DC. Populatrion 30k, located within Italy.
#6 Hong Kong-another island
#12 Guernsey-Island nation in English Channel population 65k
#14 Iceland- Island nation, population 306k
#15 Anguilla-Caribbean island, population 14k
#16 Cayman Islands-island nation, population 49k
#17 Bermuda-island nation, population 68k
#20 Gibralter-tiny peninsula on edge of Spain, population 28k
#21 Monaco-one of world's smallest and richest nations, population 33k
#22 Lichenstein-tiny nation amidst Switzerland and Austria population 35k
#25 Jersey-another English Channel Island nation, population 92k
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 6:28pm
Urmy, I don't care about Masks obsession with the right or whatever, there are some on these threads I agree with and some I don't, period. And I intended to give Obama a chance, which is more than I can say about a lot of the lefties on these threads, and well the rightys too. I will give him more than 9 monthes to accomplish what Bush and Co. ruined in 8 years.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 6:28pm
I guess I should have said what "bushco took 8 years to ruin".
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 6:30pm
Why are we still discussing the public option? Wasn't it dead weeks ago? Didn't America make it clear that is was not wanted?
Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/29/2009 @ 5:36pm
NO. Only the radicals imagine that they are the majority. You've got a computer. Do a little research and you'll see that most of america, doctors, and many hospitals want it. As I said before.....
76% of the public wants this plan. 75% of doctors favor a public option. Google it. This is America, where the majority is supposed to rule.
Posted by ficheye at 09/29/2009 @ 6:31pm
I guess I should have said what "bushco took 8 years to ruin".
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 6:30pm
you're just as wrong either way that you post it.
While Bush made some mistakes as every other president before him has done, he is simply not guilty of the overwhelming charges that you label in stereotypical fashion.
There is no reasoning behind your attacks. You simply regurgitate every far left rant you have read on a website or heard on liberal media.
I feel sorry for you Denise because you come here with no original thoughts, no serious debate. You praise some, castigate more, and add nothing to debate. I have to wonder why you even bother to blog here?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 6:39pm
I guess I should have said what "bushco took 8 years to ruin".
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 6:30pm
you're just as wrong either way that you post it.
While Bush made some mistakes as every other president before him has done, he is simply not guilty of the overwhelming charges that you label in stereotypical fashion.
Yes, but what that man did to the English language, well, it may take generations for the mother tongue to recover.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/29/2009 @ 6:53pm
Yes, but what that man did to the English language, well, it may take generations for the mother tongue to recover. Posted by schnellerheinz at 09/29/2009 @ 6:53pm
Did we misunderestimate him? I think not.
My very favorite is one that gets a lot of air time but the delicious irony of it is never pointed out.
When George screwed up 'Fooled me once, shame on you...fooled me twice, shame on me..." and then blurted out "We won't get fooled agin (sic)" he was actually quoting a line from a song by the Who. In that song they also say "Who's the new boss? Same as the old boss".
To use a lame, overused aphorism, you just can't make that stuff up.
Posted by ficheye at 09/29/2009 @ 7:17pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 6:39pm
Aww, anti, leave poor Denise alone. She's got some problems which you have shown zero christian empathy about. I'm starting to wonder about you merely for the fact that sometimes your posts are so well thought out, even if I don't agree with them. Then you get surly and just plain mean. Her husband needs a heart transplant (for heavens sake :)
"...Bush made some mistakes as every other president before him has done..." Oh, but what mistakes! Abu Ghraib? Firing the attorneys because they wouldn't 'play ball?' Illegal wiretapping? Come on, bro!
Bush and company were truly asleep at the wheel when one of our nations greatest disasters took place. No conspiracy. Just plain old fashioned screwing up. Then he doubled it up with Katrina (Heckuva job, Brownie).
NO other president has even come CLOSE to that degree of nonchalant, petulant hubris. I realize that it's painful. And that pain is responsible for the current will of the conservatives to obfuscate and misdirect the public memory from those great failures by casting Obama as a 'socialist devil'. He's a corporatist. He's just not YOUR corporatist.
Posted by ficheye at 09/29/2009 @ 7:34pm
Anti, your as much a apologist for your guys, "Bushco" as any of us on the left, and I'm sorry for you that you call your self a christian, when your nothing but a boob. I write here because I have read here for years and I could not remain silent. I don't care if you don't like it and I will keep on writing. Don't feel sorry for me, you OBVIOUSLY have your own problems. Fisheye, he is my EX husband. Also one of my favorite Bushism's is putting food on your family.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 8:08pm
Anti, your as much a apologist for your guys, "Bushco" as any of us on the left, and I'm sorry for you that you call your self a christian, when your nothing but a boob. I write here because I have read here for years and I could not remain silent. I don't care if you don't like it and I will keep on writing. Don't feel sorry for me, you OBVIOUSLY have your own problems. Fisheye, he is my EX husband. Also one of my favorite Bushism's is putting food on your family.
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 8:08pm
Nonsense Denise. I have posted my criticisms of a number of areas where I believe Bush made big mistakes.
And you mistake my comment towards you. I want you to post here. I just wish you would add to the debate instead of merely calling Bush and conservatives names. Add some substance to our debates.
You know nothing about my Christian life and what I do to serve Christ so that is just another example of you engaging in personal attack.
My criticism of you did not resort to name calling. I merely called you out for your lack of real dialogue and debate.
Again, I hope you do contribute to the debate here.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/29/2009 @ 8:25pm
Uh Urmy and one vote, sorry you don't see it my way but it had nothing to do with mask, you especially Urmy can't seem to say anything without bringing up mask, why is that? Got it bad huh?
Posted by Denise29 at 09/29/2009 @ 4:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Been fighting for healthcare since the 1980s......hmmmmm...................
Clinton - two terms - no healthcare. Second term understandable with loss of majority, but first term - 102 & 103rd Congress?
Would you support a third party candidate if he/she promised single pay?
Posted by OneVote at 09/30/2009 @ 11:00am
Absolutley, I have really had it with the do nothings in congress, they need to be voted out, but I worry about a third party really being able to gain traction, for a truley viable seat in our political arena (circus).
Posted by Denise29 at 09/30/2009 @ 11:40am