Holder Launches Torture-Inquiry Trial Balloon

posted by John Nichols on 07/12/2009 @ 2:01pm

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Comments (71)

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Quick, to the political dictionary.

Look up the phrase "trial balloon."

Next to it you will find a photograph of Attorney General Eric Holder.

What's Holder saying? He might -- let's emphasize that word might -- launch a probe into the torture regimen that was implemented at the behest of the Bush-Cheney White House.

So suggests a Newsweek profile of the attorney general that was clearly written with the purpose of floating the balloon.

The rhetoric is encouraging. Holder is quoted as saying that the revelations regarding the "harsh interrogations" conducted during the Bush-Cheney interregnum "turned my stomach." He is portrayed as having set the groundwork for the long-delayed inquiry into the previous administration's clear violations of the 8th ("cruel and unusual") amendment to the Constitution with a West Point speech in which Holder reminded the cadets of George Washington's battlefield admonition that "captive British soldiers were to be treated with humanity, regardless of how Colonial soldiers captured in battle might be treated."

It is even suggested that Holder could be something the United States has not had in a long time: an independent attorney general who does what is required by the law, rather than a political operative doing the bidding of the White House.

To wit:

Four knowledgeable sources tell Newsweek that he is now leaning toward appointing a prosecutor to investigate the Bush administration's brutal interrogation practices, something the president has been reluctant to do. While no final decision has been made, an announcement could come in a matter of weeks, say these sources, who decline to be identified discussing a sensitive law-enforcement matter. Such a decision would roil the country, would likely plunge Washington into a new round of partisan warfare, and could even imperil Obama's domestic priorities, including health care and energy reform. Holder knows all this, and he has been wrestling with the question for months. "I hope that whatever decision I make would not have a negative impact on the president's agenda," he says. "But that can't be a part of my decision."

All of this sounds significant.

It is even more significant that the trial balloon has been launched as the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee, California Senator Dianne Feinstein, is saying that CIA director Leon Panetta told Congress in June that former Vice President Dick Cheney went "outside the law" in ordering the Central Intelligence Agency not to tell Congress about a secret counter-terrorism initiatives.

But don't take any of this as a confirmation that a proper probe will be launched.

Rather, this is the beginning of a classic Washington-insider debate -- and Holder, who joined the federal judiciary more than twenty years ago as an appointee of Ronald Reagan -- is nothing if he is not a man of Washington.

Holder's record contains no evidence whatsoever that he will strike out on his own. A cautious "law-and-order" District of Columbia Superior Court judge and U.S. Attorney, he was a unnervingly political Deputy Attorney General under former President Bill Clinton. After he left the Department of Justice in 2001, he became a corporate fixer -- doing the bidding of Chiquita Brands International after its executives were accused of employing death squads and conspiring with terrorist groups to defend its plantations in Colombia from the "threat" posed by union organizers.

Does this mean that Holder will not investigate brutal -- and, by most accounts, absurdly ineffective -- "interrogations" of prisoners by agents of the Bush-Cheney administration?

Not at all.

Holder might well do the right thing. He is an able lawyer who knows how to run an investigation. And, despite the bashing he would take from the pro-torture right, the Attorney General could come out of the process as an American hero -- a lawman committed to the rule of law, as opposed to the Constitutional wrecking crew that occupied the Department of Justice when Dick Cheney was calling the shots.

But the Attorney General will not do that right thing without a go-ahead from Obama's White House. The president and his aides have been highly resistant to probing the abuses of the previous administration. That stance may be softening.

But don't expect Holder to force the president's hand. The Attorney General is neither so legally nor so politically adventurous.

Hence, this becomes a critical moment for Americans who seek a reassertion of Constitutional values.

The Obama administration has floated a trial balloon.

It has essentially asked: Should we launch an investigation that is all but certain to confirm that Dick Cheney -- and very possibly George Bush -- actively conspired to implement a torture regimen that was illegal and unconstitutional?

If America is to be America again, the answer must be "yes."

But that affirmative answer will not come from Eric Holder's Department of Justice.

It will come from Barack Obama's White House. And the inquiry will only get a green light if the president and his aides continue to feel the heat from Americans who recognize that the only way to repair the damage done to our Constitutional order is by addressing the high crimes and misdemeanors of the previous administration.

The pro-torture right will try to shoot Holder's trial balloon down.

Supporters of the rule of law -- led by the American Civil Liberties Union and other defenders of the Constitutional order -- will keep it afloat only by telling the White House that an inquiry into the foulest abuses of the Bush-Cheney administration must be initiated and seen through to its necessary conclusion.

Comments (71)

More fun and games, yipee!

Go for it, Mr. Holder! Let's Hopey and Changey that your boss sees the same....as diversion for his getting `more important' UNconstitutional agendas implemented.

On to Vegas.....on the internet!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 2:46pm
Is a trail balloon like a trial balloon?

I suggest a real trail balloon: a trail to the truth about the shenanigans played with, in part, my hard earned money.

I do not like crooks in office or boardroom, and I do not like the toleration of such ineffable malfeasance in office as we have been treated with in the last month.

Gentlewomen and gentlemen: get the torches and pitchforks. It is time to march to the castle on the Potomac and CLEAN HOUSE.

Posted by delonix at 07/12/2009 @ 3:19pm
Yawn.

It's all off the table. We've been told & shown this repeatedly.

A bit of catnip here to progressives to jerk them off & shut them up for the summer.

After labor day, all will be forgotten as the new tv REALITY SHOWS HIT THE AIRWAVES.

Yawn.

Bottom line: expect very little change from the Obama govt of change. Or be extremely disappointed.

Posted by sloper at 07/12/2009 @ 3:39pm
Yes yes yes.

Let's divide the country even more.

Yes yes yes.

Ken Starr here we come.

Posted by bleedingheart at 07/12/2009 @ 3:50pm
#

More fun and games, yipee!

Go for it, Mr. Holder! Let's Hopey and Changey that your boss sees the same....as diversion for his getting `more important' UNconstitutional agendas implemented.

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 2:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Don't think so. I don't think this White House wants this at all.

Even if Draft Dodgin' Dick deserves his own personal version of Midnight Express.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/12/2009 @ 4:43pm
Only if we know all the truth is that we will learn from the past. Only when we know what kind of things people like Cheney are capable of doing, is that we won't reelect them again (hopefully...). Only by looking at our conscience is that we may eventually exorcise it to throw away and forever the demons inside.

The country is already divided between the fraction of people that want to keep the privileges of a few ( HMO's, oil companies and defense companies) and the rest of the people....well, the rest don't have health insurance, are the ones that go to war, and hang up with a near-to-minimum salary. That - a little bit exaggerated but not too much- is the current division in the country and cannot be resolved in a lukewarm way.

If Holder does this it will not be for further division, but to really shows this country stands not for the coins, but for what the coins say: "In God we trust". Which any other might interpret as in moral and ethics we trust.

Posted by Frank42 at 07/12/2009 @ 4:44pm
Go for it, Mr. Holder! Let's Hopey and Changey that your boss sees the same....as diversion for his getting `more important' UNconstitutional agendas implemented.

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 2:46pm

For once I agree (sort of) with Happy.

Not only is holding up the rule of law important, but I seriously doubt any of Obama's domestic policies will do anything more than run up our debt.

If restoring a sense of accountability is all he accomplishes, then it is all good.

I never believed he could "fix" our unstable economy etc. (nor did I think, based on his congressional vote that he would.) All else is irrelevant, if our liberties and rule of law are lost.

Posted by Malcontent at 07/12/2009 @ 5:31pm
I never believed he could "fix" our unstable economy etc.....

Posted by Malcontent at 07/12/2009 @ 5:31pm

Guess what? The Governator, with some, looks to be doing their best NOT to let a crisis go to waste....rolling back Cali's SuperSized, all-you-can-eat "social services":

California Lawmakers Close In on Budget Deal

AP

Sunday, July 12, 2009

SACRAMENTO, Calif. (AP) -- Gov. Arnold Schwarzenegger and legislative leaders reported steady progress on California's $26.3 billion budget mess and raised the prospect of a resolution in the coming week.

Negotiators....expected to continue discussing the governor's social service reform proposals, but still need to sort out public education funding,....

The possibility of a breakthrough in resolving California's mammoth budget shortfall comes a week after the state began issuing IOUs to thousands of vendors as a cash-saving move. State workers also have begun taking three days off a month without pay, cutting the salaries of more than 200,000 government employees by 14 percent.

.....California leaders approved a two-year budget package in February that increased sales, personal income and vehicle license taxes, but it was not enough to bring the state's spending plan back into balance.

Personal income taxes declined 34 percent during the first five months of the year, a slide that has accelerated as the recession continues to strangle California's economy. On Friday, the state controller's office reported California had spent $10.4 billion more than it collected in the fiscal year that ended June 30.

The current budget shortfall amounts to more than a quarter of California's general fund, its main account for paying operating expenses....

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 6:17pm
From the AP article on California above:

"Personal income taxes declined 34 percent during the first five months of the year, a slide that has accelerate..."

Folks, give that figure some thoughts! CA has an 11%+ UNemployment rate, 4~5% higher than a year ago.....how come income tax collection didn't drops by something similar, say a 5~10% drop instead of a whopping 34%, and still accelerating?

There is no analysis to cite why the eye-popping drop (so far) and we don't know how many John Galts are out in Cali.

Quiz time: Last week, I had tree trimming done on the big oak closest to the house...after learning a small lesson from last year's Hurricane Ike. The quote was $400...but after the work, they said they'd take $350 in cash...now, what did HAPPY do? LOL!

Back later....time to support our local restaurants!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 6:31pm
"the inquiry will only get a green light if the president and his aides

continue to feel the heat from Americans "

OK,

Tell President Obama, AG Holder and the Congress that you want all of the crimes of the Bush Administration Investigated (including Torture) investigated and prosecuted.

SIGN THE PETITION calling for a special prosecutor at ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

http://ANGRYVOTERS.ORG

Over 250,000 have signed Join them and call yourself a Patriot

Posted by JohnHKennedy at 07/12/2009 @ 7:37pm
How surprising that this comes up as we hit 10% unemployment and as Summers says that we have not even hit rock bottom. I always felt that probes were only to follow if things were to remain tough with the economy.

You would then bring Cheney back in the picture to remind people why the US is in a recession. You also get all the ugly stuff out to get the stomachs of any sentient human being churned, you would explain to the public that really Americans are better than that, get Republicans rallying behind the war-criminals and the wreckers of the economy and you would weather the economic storm.

It will divide the country but the division is of the 60/40 nature and will allow you survive till 2010 by which time you hope that your anemic mini-New Deal has done something for the country.

Posted by dimik72 at 07/12/2009 @ 7:49pm
Torture is cruel and unusual. It isn't punishment. It therefore doesn't violate the 8th Amendment. Mr. Nichols is wrong. It violates international agreements and some parts of domestic law...but not the 8th Amendment.

Posted by Thrawn at 07/12/2009 @ 8:09pm
My call: Holder comes through before September 30.

The dredging of Bush-Cheney river of corpses will be a MILD distraction, and overall a PLUS.

The alphabet channels (which hunger for this sort of this, which hyped up in yellow-red "Iraq War" shock-o-rama graphics 24/7) will be the biggest problem. Guaranteed.

They love the red meat 'socialist-in-chief' / redistributionist (McCain/Palin cries) and did all they could to pump the coded fear messages throughout the fall - they will eat this up.

Nevertheless, this will be moderated in a number of ways:

1- It will be the AG's office not the POTUS driving this.

2- After the initial shock and efforts by the corporate media, there just won't be too much to keep the hate fires burning. They'll milk every little legal maneuver, but there won't be dramatic hearings to grab the Jerry Springer herds.

3- Progress will continue albeit slowly on health reform, GITMO, transitioning out of Iraq, and the new Afghan strategy, with ever more of Russia and the international community's support.

And, the upside, a la 'truth and reconciliation' for the country is substantial. The importance of this for us true conservatives who care about the Constitution can't be underestimated. Those of us who believe Cheney thwarted the founding fathers' healthy limitations on the Executive can hardly wait. Moreover, his above-the-law hubris lead to enormous death and destruction and loss of American prowess - revealing the core lies of Media moguls like Limbaugh, O'Reilly, Savage and their pals at Fox.

Holder's the type of boxer to throw only a few punches. On more prediction, the neocons will NOT be surprised when their all-talk sneering penguin man is found to have lied to them.

Posted by winyahn at 07/12/2009 @ 8:38pm
RE: Holder ... Now he says don't, now he says do. Who's real Obama anyway?

--------

Independent's Day Obama doesn't want to look back, but Attorney General Eric Holder may probe Bush-era torture anyway.

Posted by HelenDAO at 07/12/2009 @ 8:48pm
I have NO sympathies for most Californians, EXCEPT for the small companies now floating money to the People's Republic of California:

California vendors fight for their cash

Small business owners plan layoffs and furloughs if they're saddled with hard-to-redeem IOUs.

By Maggie Overfelt, CNNMoney.com contributing writer

Last Updated: July 12, 2009: 6:29 PM ET

NEW YORK (CNNMoney.com) -- As if struggling to stay afloat during a faltering economy isn't difficult enough, hundreds of small business vendors that rely on contracts with California are facing another hurdle: There's a good chance the state won't be paying any of their invoices this month.

After the state legislature failed to agree on budget solutions earlier this month to close a $26 billion gap, California started issuing IOUs for a variety of payments it owes -- including most of its vendor bills,...."This means that the state is casting off its cash-flow problems onto hundreds of families and small businesses in California," says Jacob Roper, a spokesman for the state controller's office.

So far, California has mailed $354 million worth of IOUs and plans to issue a total of $3 billion by the end of July....the state controller's office won't say exactly how many small companies will be hit, it's likely to be a big number.....at least 14,000 small companies, most of them California firms.

Affected business owners say they're in uncharted territory....

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 9:24pm
Posted by Thrawn at 07/12/2009 @ 8:09pm

You have a rather tortured notion of "punishment". Based on this logic, the state - for any reason other than punishment (the pleasure of the torturer, to make an example of a particular criminal, entertainment, etc.) - could all escape 8th Amendment coverage because the intent is not to "punish". This would effectively make the amendment meaningless.

Posted by srjenkins at 07/12/2009 @ 9:59pm
Go ahead, let the games begin. Every democrat in congress who approved the Patriot Act will be interrogated as to why they approved said actions. Peolci's prior statements will brought up again, again and again. And remember, the current administration will be racked over the coals about their corruption when they leave office. This will be a blood letting that will not stop.

Posted by pyeatte at 07/12/2009 @ 10:12pm
Members of the Democratic Party have been flayed, pilloried, hounded, [add your synonym] by members of the Republican Party for years as being "soft on communism," "sort on America," "soft on ..." Soft. Soft Soft.

They should have held their ground on these issues, as history has always been on their side. Moynihan's description of communism's fall was correct, not Crox News versions.

So they caved (despite many and enjoinder to resist) on the Patriot Act, the most wrongly named act in many years. They forgot their John Stuart Mill.

So who is to blame: the wrongheaded Republicans or the cowardly Democrats? Both.

Posted by delonix at 07/12/2009 @ 10:30pm
at worst, some low-level CIA staffers will get a slap on the wrist. holder isn't going after cheney or bush, or rove or addington, or yoo or rumsfeld. cheney will continue golfing in wyoming. bush will continue to clear brush and pretend he's from texas. rove will continue sucking cock on fox news. addington and yoo will find cushy jobs in academia. and rumseld will cash in on a billion dollar book deal in 2030, detailing his catastrophically botched invasion, his repugnant torture regime, and his secret gay sex life.

i can't wait.

Posted by darladoon at 07/12/2009 @ 10:34pm
cheney will continue golfing in wyoming.

Posted by darladoon at 07/12/2009 @ 10:34pm

But I'm sure he'd rather take on the Messianic Administration and placeHolder....easy as duck/dove hunting but more invigorating for the heart!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 10:52pm
If Holder does this it will not be for further division, but to really shows this country stands not for the coins, but for what the coins say: "In God we trust". Which any other might interpret as in moral and ethics we trust.

Posted by Frank42 at 07/12/2009 @ 4:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

You are barking up the wrong tree here! There is no trust in God here, just trust in the new Messiah the Obamanation that makes desolation and the Demoncrats! They will tell you God and Christianity has nothing to do with our constitution, founding fathers, government, or its politicians, and considering the current administration and dictatorial Demoncrat congress they are will enforce this false ideology! Don't you read what is posted by the majority here?

Posted by BigPasture at 07/12/2009 @ 10:55pm
happy, you're annoying.

Posted by darladoon at 07/12/2009 @ 10:58pm
There is no trust in God here, just trust in the new Messiah the Obamanation... Don't you read what is posted by the majority here?

Posted by BigPasture at 07/12/2009 @ 10:55pm

Go easy on F42....he's confused and in the wrong party, he thinks Dems stand for personal freedom, liberty, our flag, apple pie, and hot dogs!

Night!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 10:58pm
It is sad. It is amazing how many are so fooled by a big empty production!

Posted by BigPasture at 07/12/2009 @ 11:09pm
Happy-We can tell how much the democrats do not stand for any of that by the way we lost all freedom,liberty,the flag,were not allowed to eat apple pie and hot dogs back when Clinton was POTUS and the democrats controlled congress..Thank goodness Clinton and those democrats died in office so we could have free elections,again and got a republican.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/12/2009 @ 11:15pm
Posted by darladoon at 07/12/2009 @ 10:34pm

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/12/2009 @ 11:15pm

Razor sharp - both of yous!

Hey, is there a way for this investigation to proceed with no congressional hearings?

Posted by winyahn at 07/12/2009 @ 11:27pm
Pullease!! Obama has a now well established pattern where he outlines a "vision" with promises and "hope", all in theory--then retracts everything.The strategy is for people to be deluded to thinking "Oh well, he at least thought about it".That's utter crap. He is not only continuing the Bush dictatorship but extending it.In 1993 James Wardner wrote a book called "The Planned Destruction of America" which is all coming true.Most of this nightmare started with JFK's assassination to prevent him from abolishing the Federal Reserve (and also giving Israel nukes). All we will get out of health care reform is babkes, served on another date for Michelle and Barack in a Greenwich Village restaurant, with Bibi flashing his middle finger to America from out the window.

Posted by mystic at 07/13/2009 @ 12:17am
It is sad. It is amazing how many are so fooled by a big empty production!

Posted by BigPasture at 07/12/2009 @ 11:09pm

Our resident dead ender is still struggling come to terms with the notion that the earth is not flat.

Posted by Shingo at 07/13/2009 @ 03:04am
Go easy on F42....he's confused and in the wrong party, he thinks Dems stand for personal freedom, liberty, our flag, apple pie, and hot dogs!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 10:58pm

At least he's not deluded enough to believe that the Repugs ever stood for any of that.

Posted by Shingo at 07/13/2009 @ 03:09am
o easy on F42....he's confused and in the wrong party, he thinks Dems stand for personal freedom, liberty, our flag, apple pie, and hot dogs!

I am really so HAPPY that you are not confused at all because you are wrong all the time:

Blogging in a progressive forum, and trying to distract us all from the bottom line. When we start talking about individual rights and this right of Congress to know what is happening with our secret agencies, you start with California's deficit and apple pie! You are only looking at lowering the quality of the debate!

Yes, Dems stand for individual rights, Reps stand for the rights of big money..and I'll get the apple pie and leave you the hot dog....

"You are barking up the wrong tree here! There is no trust in God here, just trust in the new Messiah the Obamanation that makes desolation and the Demoncrats! They will tell you God and Christianity has nothing to do with our constitution, founding fathers, government, or its politicians, and considering the current administration and dictatorial Demoncrat congress they are will enforce this false ideology! Don't you read what is posted by the majority here?"

I don't care what you and your friends stand for. I stand for morality and the right of the people to know what happened the last eight years of lies and cynicism. If you cannot see a metaphor get out of my way! And about "they are will enforce this false ideology." I think you should take a class or two in English.

Posted by Frank42 at 07/13/2009 @ 05:14am
Posted by pyeatte at 07/12/2009 @ 10:12pm

I thought "Bush did nothing wrong", pyette...

now it's "EVERYBODY is guilty!"?!??!?!

Guilty of what?????

heheh

Posted by Mask at 07/13/2009 @ 06:42am
Obama has made it clear that he wants only to "look forward" and not visit the past. He will block Holder some how and continue the policy of the Pelosi Democrats' protection of Cheney. Problem is, that you can't know where you are going till you know where you came from.

Posted by perryfellwock at 07/13/2009 @ 07:34am
Go ahead, let the games begin. Every democrat in congress who approved the Patriot Act will be interrogated as to why they approved said actions. Peolci's prior statements will brought up again, again and again. And remember, the current administration will be racked over the coals about their corruption when they leave office. This will be a blood letting that will not stop.

Posted by pyeatte at 07/12/2009 @ 10:12pm

Again, ignoring the sarcasm, another post to agree with.

Isn't that how it is supposed to work?

It's called transparency. It's one of those things, like fair elections and defending civil liberties that the left and right are supposed to agree on, but for reasons incomprehensible to me, righties argue against.

This "leftie" can't wait to hear Pelosi's excuses (where is this alleged 'table' that all my rights were left on?)...or for congress to explain why it voted for an anti-American bill... or any bill w/o reading it first. (Anyone who voted out of ignorance, should be summarily fired for refusing to do their job.)

Yes-"let the games begin". The prize is our country's survival.

Posted by Malcontent at 07/13/2009 @ 08:12am
Holder reminded the cadets of George Washington's battlefield admonition that "captive British soldiers were to be treated with humanity, regardless of how Colonial soldiers captured in battle might be treated."

Why do people insist on speaking of these terrorists in the same light as captured soliders??? They do not have the same rights as soldiers under the Geneva conventions (they deliberately target civilians, don't wear uniforms, etc). When it comes right down to it, the vast majority (sorry, leftists, the true MAJORITY)could not care less if they are treated roughly in attempts to glean information that might prevent them from killing thousands of innocents. These thugs don't deserve the angst about "rights" they aren't entitled to

Posted by ProudLibertarian at 07/13/2009 @ 08:15am
Posted by Thrawn at 07/12/2009 @ 8:09pm

You have a rather tortured notion of "punishment". Based on this logic, the state - for any reason other than punishment (the pleasure of the torturer, to make an example of a particular criminal, entertainment, etc.) - could all escape 8th Amendment coverage because the intent is not to "punish". This would effectively make the amendment meaningless.

Posted by srjenkins at 07/12/2009 @ 9:59pm

**************************************

That is an interesting legal argument I have not considered before. Surely the State would need a compelling interest. "For the torturer's pleasure" wouldn't violate the 8th, but it would surely violate the 14th.

However, for someone who was sentenced to death, theoretically, a public torture that was intended to serve as a warning to others, wouldn't be punishment, and wouldn't violate the 8th, and might meet the compelling interest standard.

I am certain it would fail, but it appears to be an internally consistent legal argument.

Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 07/13/2009 @ 08:32am
AQ leaders should have been and should continue to be hunted down and shot. Period..

not treated like victums by the left here...

Keept this crap up right until election day, as the current crowd are viewed as ..

..the ones who spent more in 2 years than 200 years of America combined..

..the ones who destroyed what is left of the dollars value...

spent more than can be created in order to poay the bills for the "stim ulus. GM, Banks...

...those who slah the military and deny the NK and Iranians are anything else than nuts with a desire to be nukes...

...to become the Socialistic States of America..

...the party to kill off American inititive in business and inovatition by Cap and Trade nonsense...

..the one who are "saving the Planet" nonsense with our tax dollars as the rest of the thinking world in Asia grow their econmies...

..yeah...go ahead and hold Bush/Cheney trials....great distraction...

Posted by YourJomamma at 07/13/2009 @ 08:40am
am certain it would fail, but it appears to be an internally consistent legal argument.

Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 07/13/2009 @ 08:32am

So says counsel Durwood! LOL

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 07/13/2009 @ 08:47am
Posted by Thrawn at 07/12/2009 @ 8:09pm

You have a rather tortured notion of "punishment". Based on this logic, the state - for any reason other than punishment (the pleasure of the torturer, to make an example of a particular criminal, entertainment, etc.) - could all escape 8th Amendment coverage because the intent is not to "punish". This would effectively make the amendment meaningless.

Posted by srjenkins at 07/12/2009 @ 9:59pm

Sorry SRJ, but there is no equivalency between acts taken in war and punishment meted through the criminal justice system.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 09:01am
As to Holder's "trial balloon", it should be shot down with a missile to send a message to the Democrats and the anti-American left.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 09:02am
antisocialist-You guys say that the left is anti America and they say that you guys are which makes one wonder how we are still alive considering that most of the country is anti America.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/13/2009 @ 09:16am
Hey Nobody.....get a clue, Obama (and the coattail congress) was elected by essentially lying to people about their real intent (creating a socialist "paradise")and a particularly dim, uninspired republican candidate. The majority of people in the US do not identify themselves as part of the "left" and the results of this administration's overreach will create a significant backlash and the "Chosen One" will be relagated to the Jimmy Carter legacy - a pathetic, one-term mistake.

Posted by ProudLibertarian at 07/13/2009 @ 09:21am
proudlibertarian-what does your response to me have to do with my post?Not an Obama supporter nor do I support politicians in general so what am I supposed to get a clue about?If you read my post you will see that I included the right in it which means that we are talking about most of the country.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/13/2009 @ 09:26am
I heard an amazing story today. I reminded me of how different our perceptions of reality are.

We were waiting for a meeting to start and a Senior VP noticed the clock was off by about 8 minutes so he went and set the time and I said, "Boy, it's a good thing we aren't GM or you'd be in trouble with the union." (None of our workers belong to a union.)

"Ha, Ha, Ha."

Then Dave, said, "That's not a joke. When I was with XXXXX, we moved from one corner of the 102nd story of the World Trade Center to the opposite corner. And one of the guys in my unit plugged in a calculator. The electrical union shut my entire unit down for two days because you have to be an electrician to plug in a calculator."

"You have to be joking", I said.

"No, no joke. The entire unit was shut down for two entire days because someone plugged in a calculator.", was the reply.

It seems these are the only kinds of stories I hear regarding unions. The union cost the company tens of thousands of dollars because someone plugged in a calculator. I know I don't hear about the good things unions do. But is it any wonder I hold the opinons I do?

Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 07/13/2009 @ 09:50am
mystic,

You discuss a book by James Wardner that hypothesizes about a planned destruction of America that "began" with the JFK assassination.

In my opinion, your train goes off of the tracks at the very beginning of your argument.

I am probably the only one in this country who believes this - but - there was no conspiracy to kill JFK.

Oswald acted alone (in my opinion). Here is why:

1. Oswald was really messed up, mentally. His own brother described him as someone who was a misfit. Oswald owned a rifle. He worked in the book depository. The city had announced the parade route. Oswald apparantly hated JFK. It was a target of opportunity, Oswald trying to show the world what he could do, that he alone could screw up the world with 3 shots.

2. Ruby did not kill Oswald to shut him up. Ruby was a nightclub owner in Dallas who was always trying to be involved in important things going on in the city. He was in the police building frequently, nobody thought it odd that he was there the day he killed Oswald. Supposedly Ruby killed Oswald to spare Jackie Kennedy the pain of an Oswald trial.

3. Dealy Plaza is a small area, much smaller than it appears on television or in pictures. Oswald's shots were not "from afar". He had been a marksman in the Marines, he would have had no difficulty getting the shots off. Much has been said about the "magic bullet" that went through both JFK and Governor Connoly....some have said that it is possible the bullet could have hit both men.....some have talked about puffs of smoke from another rifle (perhaps from the "grassy knoll")...by 1963 modern guns did not give off puffs of smoke....there are many witnesses who heard 3 shots...that was the initial reaction of a lot of people...

That's my opinion, nobody agrees with me.

Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 10:03am
As a truck driver I spend almost as much time looking in the rear view mirrors as I do looking out of the windshield.

If Obama was a truck driver he would soon find himself in a wreck. The danger from what comes behind you is just as great as the danger ahead. You have to resolve threats from behind aswell as ahead in order to arrive safely at your destination.

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 10:48am
Gentlewomen and gentlemen: get the torches and pitchforks. It is time to march to the castle on the Potomac and CLEAN HOUSE.

Posted by delonix at 07/12/2009 @ 3:19pm

Damn! A like minded individual! Now we only need 1,999,998 more of us to march on Washington!

Things are looking up..

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 10:52am
By the way.

Great post there Mr. Nichols. Thanks.

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 10:53am
That's my opinion, nobody agrees with me. Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 10:03am

Correct. Just ask the 'magic bullet'. How could a bullet go through Connally, take a couple of turns, ricochet off of a bone, and then end up on a stretcher with no signs of damage?

I know it reinforces your sense of patriotism to try to put this issue to rest by believing the Warren commission report, but the original explanation is unravelling.

Torture inquiry must go forward.

Posted by ficheye at 07/13/2009 @ 11:15am
Our resident dead ender is still struggling come to terms with the notion that the earth is not flat.

Posted by Shingo at 07/13/2009 @ 03:04am

Many like him are still attempting to come to terms with the fact the Earth is 4.5 billion years old instead of 6000.

Talk about dealing with what is behind and learning from it in order to discern the best course for the future is so far beyond their capability to understand as to be a useless endeavour even trying.

But now we have a "President" who also wants to proceed full steam ahead without resolving the issues of the recent past.

What Hope? What Change? Nothing but pleasant sounding rhetoric. We are being force fed pleasing speeches with no substance.

Like giving a starving person a case of Twinkies.

Only this time some of us "starving people" will no longer be fooled.

Sharpen up the pitchforks and break out the kerosene, rags and sticks!

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 11:20am
We must Demand Single Payer Healthcare. We must Demand Campaign Election Reform and foremost, We must Demand Justice!

Calling, emailing or sending letters to your elected representatives does have some small effect. But no where near the pressure needed to exact change.

At this point it seems we must demonstrate en masse. I guesstimate that appox 2 million people camped out in Washington until our demands are met will suffice.

Some of us will be arrested. Some of us will be beaten. Most of us will lose our jobs and our health insurance. But if you look at the sacrifice of the signers of the Declaration of Independence our sacrifice would be small.

And we would accomplish our goals and be able to feel proud again as a people.

Seems well worth the effort to me!

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 11:40am
ficheye,

Another knee-jerk response from you.

I have not read the Warren Commission report in detail. Never did.

This is MY report.

I have been to Dealy Plaza. It is a small location. A shot from the sixth floor window to the street below is not a "shot from afar".

There were 3 shots. The first missed. The second was the "magic bullet". The third is the one that fatally injured JFK in the head.

What is your explanation? Do you imply there were other shots from other locations? Since a lot of the initial reaction was that there were 3 shots, what is your explanation.

If you go on the internet and you listen to/watch recordings of the various news bulletins and intial reports, there were many comments about 3 shots. If you imply there were more than 3, then a lot of people were "IN" on this conspiracy.

You discuss my sense of patriotism about believing the Warren Report. Where does my patriotism enter into this? Are you implying that someone in our own government had JFK killed?

If you have all this wisdom, by all means share it with the rest of us so that the country can finally put this mystery to rest - you apparently have the answers.

As far as "torture inquiry".... I was not even commenting on that.

What is happening with regard to that ....is that a large element of the left just can not stop itself.....it is fixated on what it believes are "crimes" but were simply actions (done to protect the country from terrorism) that the left does not agree with, as it advocates "peace" and "diplomacy" and America-blame.

But I still believe the far rabid left is going to be disappointed because Obama is not willing to let his socialist agenda be derailed in a leftist quest for "revenge".

Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 11:43am
Come on people email the usdoj.gov and request a special prosecutor.

Posted by dannsh at 07/13/2009 @ 11:55am
a leftist quest for "revenge".

Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 11:43am

A true leftist quest for "Justice".

"Justice" is a methodical and exact manner of punishing people when they commit a crime(s). "Justice" by it's very nature usually has permanent and far reaching results. "Justice" is devoid of emotional response.

"Revenge" on the other hand is a purely emotional response and usually involves lashing out in anger with brutality involved. It generally provides no lasting result and often leads to more violence.

But most folks on the neo-con fascist right do not know the difference. Thus we had numerous instances or torture at the highest levels of government. Torture is by it's very essence "Brutal Revenge" and seeks to elicit false confessions and has nothing whatever to do with justice.

And Obama is in no way a representative of the left...

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 12:08pm
Come on people email the usdoj.gov and request a special prosecutor.

Posted by dannsh at 07/13/2009 @ 11:55am

Not a bad idea. But most likely ineffective. Holder will have to get the green light from Obama before proceeding. And it doesn't really matter what you say to the DOJ. If you want have a little more effect. Go to Obama's website and express your opinion. Apparently he reads that stuff on occasion. Or call the White House itself and speak your mind.

Petitioning the DOJ is useless.

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 12:14pm
If the needs and desires of the majority of the American people are not heeded after the last election, when the Democrates were given a clear mandate and agenda. What makes you think they will be in the future?

What has changed? Not much! We have been presented with a President who took much of his campaign funding from Goldman-Sachs. These people do not hand out money without expecting a big return on investment.

These contributions from big finance are thinly veiled bribes. Personally I was hoping that Obama would take the money and then use it to screw them. But alas, I was foolishly thinking he might be playing chess. Now I know he was playing checkers all along... Sad.

That is what led me to the realization that only a mass demonstration by the People of this once great country could make a difference.

The future of this country is now in the hands of it's people. For better or worse.

Better takes sacrifice. Worse takes nothing more than sitting in front of your tube and doing nothing.

I guess we will get what we deserve.

Posted by chaoszen at 07/13/2009 @ 12:50pm
because Obama is not willing to let his socialist agenda be derailed in a leftist quest for "revenge". Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 11:43am

SIR CHERMAK,

*Another knee-jerk response from you.

Well, yes, since you went completely off topic and got into your assassination obsession ( that reflects most of what the Warren report states, BTW)

*What is your explanation? Do you imply there were other shots from other locations?

I'm not implying anything. I made one statement about the 'magic bullet' and you are accusing me of coming up with a wish list of conspiracy points. You are the one who seems certain about every detail, not I. I disagreed with you, which seemed OK in that context. And I was nice about it.

*As far as "torture inquiry".... I was not even commenting on that.

Yeah, I caught that. Even though the topic here is the torture inquiry. Silly me. You just started, out of the blue, on a rant about JFK. I'm worried about you.

*The left, the rabid left.

Come on, mackie. There is (almost) no one here that is more rabid than yourself. I made one point about an unresolved issue, the 'magic bullet', and you came unglued again, lecturing in a way that you profess to hate, while all I did was make a comment without rancor.

*This is MY report.

I caught that, as well. I'm sure that your research has been painstaking. You may not be aware that you just echo the Warren commission report.

Did you see my little story under 'Sarah Palins Elite Apologists'? Near the bottom. It was all for you, chermie. I was surprised not to see you there.

Posted by ficheye at 07/13/2009 @ 4:25pm
ficheye,

Perhaps read the blogs the next time before declaring things with absolute certainty.

You indicate that I started a "rant" about JFK out of the blue.

You must have missed the post from the blogger "mystic" up above. Mystic promoted a book by James Wardner called "The Planned Destruction of America". Mystic says the "nightmare" started with JFK's assassination.

I was simply responding to Mystic stating that there was no conspiracy, the JFK murder was not part of a "planned destruction" of America.

That is the only reason I went into that topic.

No point telling you this now, you believe what you want to believe anyway. You take after Mask a little bit in that regard.

Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 5:07pm
You take after Mask a little bit in that regard. Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 5:07pm

My REAL point was about the fact that I made a very mild response to your statements, then you unloaded the usual 'leftist' crapola. Ranting, in other words.

You kind of set yourself up when you say: "That's my opinion; nobody agrees with me".

Along with everyone else, I am not going to agree with you.

Posted by ficheye at 07/13/2009 @ 6:14pm
But I'm sure he'd rather take on the Messianic Administration and placeHolder....easy as duck/dove hunting but more invigorating for the heart!

Posted by Happy at 07/12/2009 @ 10:52pm

Nah, nothing TOO invigorating, now.

He'd have to grow a set first. (Or borrow them back from that icebox of a wife of his.)

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:16pm
happy, you're annoying.

Posted by darladoon at 07/12/2009 @ 10:58pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Got WAAAAY too much time on his hands.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:20pm
Sorry SRJ, but there is no equivalency between acts taken in war and punishment meted through the criminal justice system.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 09:01am | ignore this person | warn this person

So, who declared war on anybody?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:23pm
I mean, at least for ass-covering purposes. Not that any of OUR boys would ever, you know, do anything outside the pale.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:27pm
I mean, Vietnam didn't (in the eyes of some) rise to the level of a war, and they were drafting the shit out of people then.

Nowadays, we're not even doing THAT.

How close to a state of "war" could we be?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:32pm
Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 09:01am | ignore this person | warn this person

So, who declared war on anybody?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 6:23pm

Bin Laden and Al Qaeda for one

From the 9/11 Comm Report

<A DECLARATION OF WAR

In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin....>

http://tinyurl.com/3tmkk4

<Al Qaeda is not a nation-state, and as such cannot be a state party to the Geneva Conventions. Even if al Qaeda were capable of becoming a party to the treaties, it has not done so, nor has it ever declared an intention to accept their terms. Naturally, al Qaeda members cannot claim the benefits of a treaty to which their organization is not a party. Thus, while the conflict with al Qaeda is governed by the laws of war, al Qaeda is not a state party to one of the specialized codifications of those laws, the Geneva Convention.

In fact, al Qaeda members fall within the category of what are known as illegal combatants. Although "illegal combatant" is nowhere mentioned in the Geneva Conventions, it is a concept that has long been recognized by state practice in the law of war area. As the U.S. Supreme Court unanimously stated over 60 years ago, "[b]y universal agreement and practice the law of war draws a distinction between the armed forces and the peaceful populations of belligerent nations and also between those who are lawful and unlawful combatants."24 These two sets of distinctions each play a critical role in achieving the fundamental objective of the laws of war: to minimize the amount of human suffering and hardship necessitated by a state of war.>

http://tinyurl.com/mlg5op

Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 6:52pm
ficheye,

You say I "set myself up" about the JFK murder, by saying nobody agrees with me.

I wasn't setting anything up. I was simply acknowledging that nobody agrees with me on this. That is all.

As far as that particular argument goes, however, the last I knew (today July 13, 2009) nobody has proven anything else regarding this. There have been about a zillion theories, but nobody has proven any of them.

So my theory is as good as anybody else's. I see nothing which has proven that the original Warren commission conclusion was wrong.

People can not bring themselves to believe that one man could have caused such disruption, by bringing a President of the U.S. down. They can not imagine one person is capable of an action of such devastating consequence, so it actually makes sense to some and is "explainable" if people think there must have been some kind of conspiracy. And then imaginations run wild, but they have never run to any proof of an actual conspiracy.

Maybe someday somebody will offer up actual proof and detail, but until that day comes, if it ever comes, my theory is as good as anybody's.

I was commenting on essentially 2 separate topics, one of which was initiated by another blogger.

As far as the "rabid left"......YOU were the one who commented that the "torture inquiry must go forward"....and so I commented on that subject as well, which I realize is the main subject of this thread anyway. That is why I "unloaded the leftist crapola".

YOU are RIGHT about THAT, of course, without intending to be right. Much of leftist opinion IS crapola!

Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 7:21pm
http://tinyurl.com/mlg5op

Posted by antisocialist at 07/13/2009 @ 6:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Still, doesn't clarify, for me anyway, WHEN a state of war exists, as opposed to, in YOO'S OPINION, WHO we can be at war with.

YOO? WHO? Don't think that will do.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 7:32pm
And you know what they say about opinions...

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 7:35pm
<A DECLARATION OF WAR

In February 1998, the 40-year-old Saudi exile Usama Bin Ladin....>

http://tinyurl.com/3tmkk4

So, if he can validly declare war on us, does that make him (and his) a legal combatant, then?

As an alternative, it seems that to be able to declare war validly would confer some kind of "official" status on someone.

Hard for little old me to see the potential in this one of having it both ways: recognizing one's declaration of war, then, denying them status as an opponent in the conventional sense.

Can a criminal, for example, qua criminal, "declare war?"

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/13/2009 @ 7:47pm
YOU are RIGHT about THAT, of course, without intending to be right. Much of leftist opinion IS crapola! Posted by sjchermak at 07/13/2009 @ 7:21pm

How convoluted! Almost as much as the original theory.

There is hope for you yet, CHERMAK!

Posted by ficheye at 07/14/2009 @ 01:10am
"Why do people insist on speaking of these terrorists in the same light as captured soliders??? They do not have the same rights as soldiers under the Geneva conventions..."

Posted by ProudLibertarian at 07/13/2009 @ 08:15am

I don't get it. People who post here obviously have access to a computer and the internet. That means you can actually READ the Geneva Convention and see what it says before coming here to post your opinions.

Article 4 Persons protected by the Convention are those who, at a given moment and in any manner whatsoever, find themselves, in case of a conflict or occupation, in the hands of a Party to the conflict or Occupying Power of which they are not nationals.

It's the same with the Sotomayor speech. She was clearly referring to the aspiration to overcome one's personal biases, but I guess you'd have to actually read it to understand that.

Posted by FLaim at 07/14/2009 @ 5:36pm
Eric Holder is an 'uncle tom' and is not going to appoint any 'special prosecutor', and here's why:

First, clearly a deal had to have been cut by the 'outgoing' administration, and the 'incoming' one, relevant to criminality that Bush Administration officials had conducted and participated in before they were removed from their illegitimate holding of the office for 8 long tortuous years of deceit and murder.

So, though this is clearly mere speculation, it is the ONLY POSSIBLE EXPLANATION for 'why' exactly this new liar and thief who squads in the white house, has an issue with the Rule of Law being restored to the nation.

We lived in a dictatorship for a very long time, cumulatively, much longer than the Bush II eight years of it. We've effectively had our Constitution 'gutted' and 'eviscerated' by guys like Bush I and II, and even Bill Clinton, who swore up and down he was a democrat, but sure did act like a republican by pushing thru NAFTA and other things that only a GOP nutcase would propose.

In closing, I have to tell you that my summary here is that Obama made a deal with the devil, promised there would be 'zero prosecutions' for 'any criminality of any kind' before he took office. And I believe he did that to prevent the trump card of MARTIAL LAW from being pulled, as Henry Paulson threatened Congress with that, as did Michael Chertoff, in circumspect, very thinly veiled ways.

So we traded our CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT TO JUSTICE away for a few more months without the MARTIAL LAW. I think it was a very bad, very stupid trade. And the end result will in fact, be bloody, violent ANARCHY once the entire system does what it's doing right now, and that is to COLLAPSE on itself like a house of cards. Don't be holding your breath waiting for Eric Holder to do the right thing and appoint a special prosecutor, because he, like the rest of the criminal cabal that constitutes the U.S. Government, are desperately trying to save their own asses from a LYNCH MOB when the whole thing comes down on their heads. They are not going to rock the boat with an inquiry that ultimately leads to many more politico's being tried for the crime of HIGH TREASON AGAINST THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA.

Posted by HoosierDaddy at 07/18/2009 @ 02:34am