Revolutionary Republic of July 4 Should Eschew Empire's Errors

posted by John Nichols on 07/04/2009 @ 08:00am

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The days leading up to the 233rd anniversary of American independence offered plenty of opportunities to consider how a country founded in opposition to empire and imperialism should respond to the democratic inclinations and repressions on display in distant (and not so distant) lands.

Citizens are risking their lives in Iran to challenge the apparent theft of a presidential election � displaying a determination that was absent in America after the Supreme Court helped George Bush abscond with a presidency in 2000.

Citizens are in the streets of Honduran cities to challenge the removal of an elected president in a classic military coup � of the sort that has not been seen since te bad old days when cold war meddling unsettled Latin America.

President Obama faces criticism for speaking up too loudly, and for not speaking up loudly enough.

He is urged to intervene, and he is blamed for intervening.

It's a difficult balance to strike.

But history offers wise counsel.

On July 4, 1821, Secretary of State John Quincy Adams (who four years later would sit as the nation's 6th president) reported to the Congress and the American people on the role American was taking with regard to world affairs.

Adams' statement remains the finest expression of the unique balance that a republic must strike if it wishes to avoid paying the unaffordable wages of empire.

Above all, Adams reminded Americans that, while they have a responsibility to speak up for democracy clearly and without apology, they have an equal responsibility to avoid entangling themselves in the turmoils of other lands. Echoing the warnings of George Washington and James Madison, the secretary of state warned that such entanglements would ultimately undermine liberty in the United States � as they would require of America economic and political compromises that were inconsistent with domestic democracy.

After reading aloud the Declaration of Independence in its entirety, Adams said of America:

Wherever the standard of freedom and independence has been or shall be unfurled, there will her heart, her benedictions and her prayers be. But she goes not abroad in search of monsters to destroy. She is the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all. She is the champion and vindicator only of her own. She will recommend the general cause, by the countenance of her voice, and the benignant sympathy of her example. (But) she well knows that by once enlisting under other banners than her own, were they even the banners of foreign independence, she would involve herself, beyond the power of extrication, in all the wars of interest and intrigue, of individual avarice, envy, and ambition, which assume the colors and usurp the standard of freedom.

The fundamental maxims of her policy would insensibly change from liberty to force. The frontlet upon her brows would no longer beam with the ineffable splendor of freedom and independence; but in its stead would soon be substituted an imperial diadem, flashing in false and tarnished luster the murky radiance of dominion and power. She might become the dictatress of the world: she would be no longer the ruler of her own spirit�

Addressing the great powers of old Europe, Adams implored: "Come, and inquire what has America done for the benefit of mankind! In the half century which has elapsed since the declaration of American independence, what have you done for the benefit of mankind?"

His answer, he explained, would not be a listing of accomplished men and women, of inventions and economic successes.

No, Adams announced. America's genius was found in the revolutionary spirit of 1776, which embraced the promise of democracy while rejecting the corruptions of empire � the worst of which involve the impulse to meddle in the affairs of other countries.

"Her glory is not dominion, but liberty," Adams said of the United States. "Her march is the march of mind. She has a spear and a shield; but the motto upon her shield is Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."

Adams concluded his address by urging Americans to renew their acquaintance with the revolutionaries against colonial meddling and empire who founded the American experiment, to celebrate their example and to: "Go thou and do likewise!"

This is counsel that Barack Obama and his circle should take to heart on this 233rd Fourth of July.

As appealing or seemingly necessary as the impulse toward intervention and imperialism may be, America should remain "the well-wisher to the freedom and independence of all" but she must be "the champion and vindicator only of her own."

Comments (51)

the events of history unfurl in unpredictable ways. absolute power corrupts absolutely.

i believe there are times and circumstances in which we must indeed meddle...

but...

a. these are fewer and farther between than the actual meddlings in which we have engaged...

and

b. we cannot afford to continue this ugly game...

economic autarky, sane pragmatic and sustainable development, and fixing our own house - roadmap to success for the future.

but if indeed some barbarian state chooses to harbor those who would attack us...

let the intervention be swift, terrible, accurate, and effective - and not entail years of bloody, draining, hate engendering occupation.

and for HEAVEN'S SAKE - LET'S NEVER ATTACK FOLKS WHO DIDN'T ATTACK US!!!!!

and find ourselves wasting away in some black hole of baghdad somewhere...making more enemies than we wipe out...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 12:06pm
Hmm,

It seems though that since the time of Monroe, we have had a different spin on the Western Hemisphere.

You may recall Mr Nichols something called the Monroe Doctrine followed by the Roosevelt Corollary?

<Roosevelt Corollary

As the United States emerged as a world superpower, the Monroe Doctrine came to define a recognized sphere of control that few dared to challenge. In 1904, U.S. President Theodore Roosevelt, added the Roosevelt Corollary to the Monroe Doctrine, which asserted the right of the United States to intervene in Latin America in cases of "flagrant and chronic wrongdoing by a Latin American Nation". This was the most significant amendment to the original doctrine and was widely opposed by critics, who argued that the Monroe Doctrine was originally meant to stop European influence in the Western Hemisphere. This amendment was designed to preclude violation of the doctrine by European powers that would ultimately argue that the independent nations were "mismanaged or unruly".

Critics, however, argued that the Corollary simply asserted U.S. domination in that area, essentially making them a "hemispheric policeman."[citation needed] To this day, it is hard to argue that the Western Hemisphere is not entirely a United States sphere of influence.>

Continued

Posted by antisocialist at 07/03/2009 @ 12:07pm
Monroe Doctrine continued

<In 1928, the Clark Memorandum was released, concluding that the United States need not invoke the Monroe Doctrine as a defense of its interventions in Latin America. The Memorandum argued that the United States had a self-evident right of self-defense, and that this was all that was needed to justify certain actions. The policy was announced to the public in 1930.

In 1954, Secretary of State John Foster Dulles evoked the Monroe Doctrine at the Tenth Inter-American Conference, denouncing the intervention of Soviet Communism in Guatemala. This was used to justify Operation PBSUCCESS. U.S. President John F. Kennedy said at an August 29, 1962 news conference:

The Monroe Doctrine means what it has meant since President Monroe and John Quincy Adams enunciated it, and that is that we would oppose a foreign power extending its power to the Western Hemisphere, and that is why we oppose what is happening in Cuba today. That is why we have cut off our trade. That is why we worked in the OAS and in other ways to isolate the Communist menace in Cuba. That is why we will continue to give a good deal of our effort and attention to it.>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monroe_Doctrine

Given US foreign policy for the Western Hemisphere for over 200 years, President Obama should be aggressively defending the recent action in Honduras against the attempt by Chavez, Castro, and Ortega to undermine the soveriegnty of the nation of Honduras.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/03/2009 @ 12:11pm
at the end of the cold war we had a golden opportunity to begin the work of earnestly trying to save the world.

but we chose to continue with business as usual, shoving our greedy, unsustainable runaway train economic model and our satano-aynrando self serving wickedness onto everybody else in an effort to turn everybody in the world into good little credit extended, triviality addicted, plastic crap buying, politically retarded, american consumer bots...

WELL...ITS OVER!!!!!

all but the picking up of the pieces...

such a shame.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 12:12pm
Not to knock my country's history, but...

When "Adams...announced. America's genius was found in the revolutionary spirit of 1776, which embraced the promise of democracy while rejecting the corruptions of empire.....", America had a huge, pristine, continent-sized empire to conquer in its own western backyard......to reach "sea to shining sea", "Manifest Destiny" and all that good `stuff'.

Like any "Empire" throughout human civilization, we did what human beings are genetically bred to do and had to do, until something or someone, stops us....be they an ocean or another country/culture!

Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 12:53pm
Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 12:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person

yup.

this understanding is something self flagellant americans and many non-americans don't seem to get.

we're all descended from some pretty wickedly clever shaved apes who have done horrible stuff. most unfair to stick it to their descendants.

we have our own wicked business to answer for...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 1:02pm
this understanding is something self flagellant americans and many non-americans don't seem to get.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 1:02pm

Somehow, this self-evident and universal truth, throughout the animal and plant kingdom, just don't stick in the love-to-self-flagellate types....

Like they have never heard of stronger ape species (Homo Sapiens) crowding out the less endowed (Neanderthals), the invasive plants, the Africanized bees decimating domestic tamer bees, the pythons taking over the Everglades, etc.....even if man is in man equations speeding up some type of `Only the strong survives'.

Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 1:15pm
Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 1:15pm | ignore this person | warn this person

i've concluded that man is naught more than a clever animal AND yet something more too.

nonetheless traits and methods which may have in the past been advantageous to survival can in different circumstances become disadvantageous...

also, traits that may indeed be advantageous for the individual, traits that at one point of human development were desirable for society as a whole, or specific civilizations, can be disastrous for the whole.

so...that which makes perfect sense to you and your fellows may be deadly and destructive to me and mine...

what am i to do then, if your success means my demise?

if you represent vast wealth and power, and i have little or naught to lose...what are my options?

to band together with those like me and oppose those like you - DEMOCRACY!!!

or, if established institutional means fail to redress problems, eventually it gets ugly...

otto von bismark understood this well.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 1:27pm
Like any "Empire" throughout human civilization, we did what human beings are genetically bred to do and had to do, until something or someone, stops us....be they an ocean or another country/culture!

Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 12:53pm

The owner/slave mentality that pushed us toward our "manifest destiny" is still alive today, the presence of an ocean notwithstanding.

All the fancy rhetoric about "freedom & democracy" is merely another pretense to further the aims of the predatory elite & the neo-colonialism that satisfies one set of human needs only to deprive the exploited of another.

The world no longer wants to serve a master for temporal security before being discarded like worn out speculative dirt & abandoned for virgin pickings in another quarter.

Nations will determine their own fates without imperial approval or hellish meddling.

Posted by Sorelish at 07/03/2009 @ 1:30pm
Wow. I am hearing some GRIMLY Darwinist chatter here. Should be interesting seeing how the more religiously-oriented neocons react to that.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/03/2009 @ 1:33pm
Posted by schnellerheinz at 07/03/2009 @ 1:33pm | ignore this person | warn this person

life and reality are permeated with grim darwinism. not an excuse for wickedness, just reality.

i am of the belief that the grimmer darwinistic habits that most likely were evolutionarily advantageous in the past, are serving precisely the opposite purpose now.

again, such traits in the individual are still advantageous for the individual, but multiplied by millions hepped up on poisonous and wicked ideology - number one contributer to civilizational suicide and possibly extinction...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 1:59pm
by the way...looks like the barbarian iranian farce of a government is up to some of its old tricks again, detaining and threatening to try british diplomats.

sickening...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 2:10pm
I suggest you read the Adams quote again.

Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 2:14pm
Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 2:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person

who me? not advising military intervention, emile, as a response...

i just find it kind of sickening that barbarians trying to act civilized just can't seem to get that simple, internationally agreed upon basis of diplomacy - don't fuck with other countries' diplomats - down pat after thirty plus years of barbaric theocracy dressed down as democracy.

i'm firmly of the opinion that unless attacked we need to stay as far away from that pack of angry, high cultured barbarians and let them work their shit out.

develop a sustainable energy paradigm and leave that hellhole.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 2:25pm
we lived with a soviet empire that behaved worse for 50 years. we agree that a military response, that sounds so civilized, is no solution.

Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 2:39pm
Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 2:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person

we knew each other, knew what to expect. the russkies acted rationally.

as much as it wants to be, iran is not now nor ever will be the superpower it sees itself as, it wants to be.

unlike the soviets, their reach is not global and they are hemmed in by hostiles and potential hostiles.

although we all too often overreacted to the soviet union, we could not withdraw and ignore them...

we CAN largely do so with iran - if we choose wise domestic policies and follow through on them.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 2:45pm
until something or someone, stops us....be they an ocean or another country/culture!

Posted by Happy at 07/03/2009 @ 12:53pm

what about goldman sachs?

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/03/2009 @ 3:38pm
PALIN QUITS...SANFORD GOES ON VACATION...

hmmm...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/03/2009 @ 4:12pm
Greetings Earthlings:

With dissension on the rise both in the United States and abroad it seems fitting Pax Christi has decided to honor retired Bishop Leroy Matthiesen with their prestigious national award later this month. The organization represents peace and justice activists globally.

President Obama, Congress and the Iranian religious zealots could all significantly learn from his example. These leaders are faced with civil discord of their own making which could become volatile if not addressed passively. As we pause to celebrate America's independence let's remember what it means to be truly free of the man-made tyranny imposed by money, greed and international corporations.

Peace, Cosmic

Posted by Cosmic at 07/03/2009 @ 4:52pm
PALIN QUITS.

the rumor around my house is that she's carrying McCain's love child.

in any case, she's done, stick a fork in her.

Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 5:12pm
in any case, she's done, stick a fork in her.

Posted by emile duBois at 07/03/2009 @ 5:12pm

She may well be into S&M. But a Fork!!

Posted by chaoszen at 07/04/2009 @ 08:36am
Following a testy exchange during Wednesday's briefing with White House Press Secretary Robert Gibbs, veteran White House correspondent Helen Thomas told CNSNews.com that not even Richard Nixon tried to control the press the way President Obama is trying to control the press.

"Nixon didn't try to do that," Thomas said. "They couldn't control (the media). They didn't try." "What the hell do they think we are, puppets?" Thomas said. "They're supposed to stay out of our business. They are our public servants. We pay them."

http://www.boom2bust.com/2009/07/03/helen-

thomas-blasts-white-house-control-of-press/

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:22am
"...veteran White House correspondent Helen Thomas told CNSNews.com that not even Richard Nixon tried to control the press the way President Obama is trying to control the press."----Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:22am

Uh, FROSTY?????

"CNS News- It was founded on June 16, 1998 under the name "Conservative News Service."---wikipedia.org

Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:27am
helen thomas "told"........

hmmm.

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:27am
BTW, on-topic--

I wouldn't fret it too much, Mr Nichols.

Iraq has effectively driven a stake in "right-wing interventionism", aka neo-conservatism. And "left-wing interventionism", aka "We need UN peacekeepers, mostly us" isn't going to fair much better.

Keep that in mind. The Right no longer trusted to play with the toy soldiers, but the Left is going to have to curb its desires to send them all around the world as well. Americans aren't interested in "bringing democracy to the Middle East"...they're also not interested in stopping "Rwandan genocides" or similar matters.

Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:30am
here's the link:

(OMG! it's foxgnus!)

http://www.myfoxdfw.com/dpp/news/politics/dpgo_

Helen_Thomas_Reporter_Grill_Gibbs_fc_20090702_2632575

go get 'em, helen!

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:32am
July 4th Cost: $39,000

Montebello, which has a 12% unemployment rate,

has decided to forgo celebrations

and donate the fireworks budget to local food banks.

"We figured that, instead of burning the money in the air, why not give it to people who need it," said Mayor Rosemarie Vasquez.

http://www.businessinsider.com/cities-cancel-july-

4th-fireworks-2009-7#montebello-california-4

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:33am
Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:32am

CNS and Fox News???

Helen was snubbed and mocked by Dubya and the Right and "not treated with the respect I deserve", but it's not completely without merit that she's not taken seriously even under Obama given she's eschewed all pretense of journalism for editorialism even back to Clinton, Bush-41, and Reagan.

Plus, she's gotten a little "flighty"...and reaching out to RIGHT-wing media to "tell her story" shows that.

Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:48am
go get 'em, helen!

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:58am
"Helen was snubbed and mocked by Dubya and the Right and "not treated with the respect I deserve", but it's not completely without merit that she's not taken seriously even under Obama given she's eschewed all pretense of journalism for editorialism even back to Clinton, Bush-41, and Reagan. Plus, she's gotten a little "flighty"...and reaching out to RIGHT-wing media to "tell her story" shows that." Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:48am

Wow. Seems kind of condescending of you. I'm wondering if you were ever critical of her during the Bush years, when she voiced similar complaints. Also, I'm not sure what you meant by your earlier post, when all you did was cite wiki about CNS.

Posted by twillie at 07/04/2009 @ 1:39pm
thomas-blasts-white-house-control-of-press/

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/04/2009 @ 11:22am | ignore this person | warn this person

nixon would literally send vp agnew out as his attack dog to bash "the liberal press" as they referred to the media then. nixon tried to control the press (as most presidents have to one extent or another and to various degrees of success...)

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/04/2009 @ 1:53pm
Posted by IlyaKuryakin at 07/04/2009 @ 12:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person

its an interesting question...i've seen crazy shit go down in this country over the last decade or more...

i've seen a pack of idiots "win" two elections in a row and drag my country straight to satano-aynrando (and real) hell...

and although BOTH times they may indeed have stolen elections...

its disheartening indeed to realize that even so, those idiots were supported by almost half of the electorate regardless, and passively supported by the legions of pop-culturally lobotomized, a-political marching morons who couldn't tell you what two countries and three large bodies of water border their own country who didn't vote and never do!!!

and along comes this palin thing...at least as stupid and ignorant as george "mushmouth" W, and possibly possessed of at LEAST as dangerous and poisonous a set of foggily grasped talking points and knee-jerk reactionary ideology.

at THIS point ILYA, i think even the stupid and ignorant here have dinged onto the realization that electing folks who appear as stupid and vacuous as they...is a BAD idea!!!

and that palin thing has done her best to make herself look stupid, unstable, and ignorant.

if she's on the top of the republican ticket in 12 there will not be much left of the GOP or there will be not much left of the country...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/04/2009 @ 2:30pm
Nichols repeats the Left's arguments from as late as the summer of 1941. Then too almost all the progressive media warned against entanglement in the European war. The Left and the isolationists of the Right, not least the anti-Semites like Father Coughlin, were cheek to cheek. Norman Thomas was a founder of the America First Committee along with Charles Lindberg. The pronouncements of Washingto, Adams and Madison echoed from that podium too.

The organ of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade can yet be seen on the Web, opposing Lend Lease, opposing the draft law (which passed by only one vote in 1940) denouncing Roosevelt as a militarist, a tool of Wall Street, a plutocrat, the very language of Hitler and Goebbels.

Is Nichols, Van den Heuvel, etc., as bad as those Stalinists?

No, they are worse. Those misguided souls back then had nothing to make them cautious, to give them warning. Today's progressives have. They can see what happens when the US shrugs her shoulders.

Look back on what happened when America involved itself, took responsibility for preventing new world conflagrations, maneuvered the direction of the planet. Since our dominance, our species experienced the swiftest, farthest leap since the dawn of history. In 60 years 2.5 billion people became 6.5 billion enjoying far longer life expectancy and access to the good life and to human rights. This has happened not just in the West but across all the continents. It has happened while the US was not just dominant militarily, but the leading economic, technological, commercial, political and cultural power. We have achieved a spectacular revolution by involving ourselves in the world.

Yet the Nichols hay seed crowd is back demanding the US mind its own business.

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/04/2009 @ 3:04pm
Hugo-What spectacular revolution took place because we decided to get overly involved in the worlds business?Over population?Much of the world does not live the good life with human rights.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/04/2009 @ 3:36pm
CNS and Fox News???

Helen was snubbed and mocked by Dubya and the Right and "not treated with the respect I deserve", but it's not completely without merit that she's not taken seriously even under Obama given she's eschewed all pretense of journalism for editorialism even back to Clinton, Bush-41, and Reagan.

Plus, she's gotten a little "flighty"...and reaching out to RIGHT-wing media to "tell her story" shows that.

Posted by Mask at 07/04/2009 @ 11:48am

Mask, it was everywhere since it was the White House press conference. You're way off on this one.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 3:38pm
Revolutionary republic to banana republic* in just a few more than 200 years must be some kind of speed record.

Change we can believe in......

*the indicators: non-representational government, corrupt legislature so corrupt everyone knows nothing can or will be done about it, a weak but charismatic figurehead at the top, very high unemployment with no sign of slowing, no manufacturing base, imports exceed exports, a grossly overfunded military, no healthcare access for millions of taxpaying citizens, in debt to a Communist superpower, growing income inequality, and a rising infant mortality rate. (I realize these are good things as far as some visitors to this site are concerned.)

Posted by Citizen54 at 07/04/2009 @ 7:00pm
"Her glory is not dominion, but liberty," Adams said of the United States. "Her march is the march of mind. She has a spear and a shield; but the motto upon her shield is Freedom, Independence, Peace. This has been her declaration: this has been, as far as her necessary intercourse with the rest of mankind would permit, her practice."

And contrary to the left, that has been teh continued practice of the US right up to this moment.

The US continues to be the greatest force for good and for liberty throughout the world in all the history of mankind.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 9:04pm
i'm nobody at 3:36pm

A fellow who already has such a low opinion of himself does not need me to hammer him further.

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/04/2009 @ 9:53pm
Look back on what happened when America involved itself, took responsibility for preventing new world conflagrations, maneuvered the direction of the planet. Since our dominance, our species experienced the swiftest, farthest leap since the dawn of history.

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano

It was great, just ask the...

American Indians Nicaraguans Chileans Guatemalans Salvadorans Dominicans Iranians Congolese Brazilians Greeks Argentines Turks Ghanaians Iraqis

Posted by koroviev at 07/05/2009 @ 12:20am
Posted by IlyaKuryakin at 07/04/2009 @ 12:04pm

Palin is finished. She has about as much chance of winning the Republican nomination as I do - now.

http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/07/ explainin-palin-all-of-above.html

Posted by srjenkins at 07/05/2009 @ 01:10am
The US continues to be the greatest force for good and for liberty throughout the world in all the history of mankind.

Posted by antisocialist at 07/04/2009 @ 9:04pm

"At that time the disciples came to Jesus and asked, "Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?"

He called a little child and had him stand among them.

And he said: "I tell you the truth, unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.

Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven."

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/05/2009 @ 01:45am
Look back on what happened when America involved itself, took responsibility for preventing new world conflagrations, maneuvered the direction of the planet. Since our dominance, our species experienced the swiftest, farthest leap since the dawn of history.

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano

yep, and we've got twinkies and bon jovi to prove it.

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/05/2009 @ 01:50am
Yet the Nichols hay seed crowd is back demanding the US mind its own business.

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/04/2009 @ 3:04pm |

Well here's one of millions of free Australians who is glad it didn't.

The joke of course is that the left promotes an America that has this marvelous Founding history but one that has done nothing much worthwhile since.

Will they please tell us what, apart from making the world a better place, by its military interventions it has done which other states have not also done?

There is nothing else, whether it be in literature, science, philosophy or even the theory and practice of governance that, per capita, other states have done equally well if not better.

Posted by lrjones4 at 07/05/2009 @ 03:08am
... have (not) done equally well ...

Posted by lrjones4 at 07/05/2009 @ 03:31am
koroviev @ 12:20am said:

>>>It was great, just ask the... American Indians Nicaraguans Chileans Guatemalans Salvadorans Dominicans Iranians Congolese Brazilians Greeks Argentines Turks Ghanaians Iraqis <<<

If you ask those people their main complaint is that they can't get green cards to live legally in the US.

But the fact you meet my argument with that non sequitur is your admission that you are floored. You can't answer the fact that in the last sixty years, while the US has been in charge, humankind has made the most tremendous, swiftest strides in history. Do you suppose that that would have happened if, instead of the US, the Soviet Union had been the leading power, or the Arabs, the French, the Japanese, the Germans or the Latinos?

Anthropologists tell us that there were about 2 million Indians in America when Columbus discovered the new world. (There are 3 times as many today). They were nomads, hunter gatherers. They had not yet invented the wheel, agriculture or a written language. On encountering the savages, whose past-time was raiding other tribes for women, a practice soon applied to the newly appearing white tribes, should the settlers have said, the natives don't want us here, the continent is taken, we must return to Europe?

How do you think Russia was settled? Do you regret the way Cro-magnon replaced Neanderthal man? How do you think the Aztecs or Incas established themselves? Do you think the Arabs came to populate North Africa, the Middle East, large parts of India, Spain and the Balkans by invitation? Have you moral qualms over the various migrations, mostly out of central Asia, that swept in overlapping waves over Europe?

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/05/2009 @ 06:28am
your arrogance smells of poo.

savages?

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/05/2009 @ 08:05am
stupid humans.

Posted by frosty zoom at 07/05/2009 @ 08:06am
Hugo-You are not capable of hammering anyone,but yourself,but your response was a good way to avoid the question while keeping your ego intact.You made a general statement that you cannot back up with specifics so you decided to go for the cheap put down rather than admit that you cannot back up your claim with specifics.The strides that the world has made is not because we are in charge.In fact,the industrial revolution that started the being propelled forward thing began in Europe.Japan is way ahead of us as are parts of Europe when it comes to being the leader in the high tech world.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/05/2009 @ 10:11am
Hugo-The strides forward that you claim are so good and that we caused to happen only took us farther away from nature,created weapons of mass destruction,pollution,and numerous other problems as well as did some good,like advances in medical science,but that has led to over population which could be a bit of a problem in the future.We,also,have a plethora of new diseases caused by these advances you say are so wonderful as well as new crimes that can be committed.Reality is that advances have consequences as you get farther away from nature.

Posted by i'm nobody at 07/05/2009 @ 10:34am
Given US foreign policy for the Western Hemisphere for over 200 years, President Obama should be aggressively defending the recent action in Honduras against the attempt by Chavez, Castro, and Ortega to undermine the soveriegnty of the nation of Honduras. Posted by antisocialist at 07/03/2009 @ 12:11pm

So I guess the official line in your book should be

"Zelaya - He's no Bloomberg."

Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 07/05/2009 @ 4:22pm
Anthropologists tell us that there were about 2 million Indians in America when Columbus discovered the new world. (There are 3 times as many today). They were nomads, hunter gatherers. They had not yet invented the wheel, agriculture or a written language. On encountering the savages, whose past-time was raiding other tribes for women, a practice soon applied to the newly appearing white tribes, should the settlers have said, the natives don't want us here, the continent is taken, we must return to Europe?

Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 07/05/2009 @ 06:28am

But Hugo, the Mayflower Pilgrims resorted to swiping the natives' seed corn upon arrival to the New World.

It's really ironic that you refer to the Native People of the Americas as savages considering the behavior of the Europeans and their treatment of the Natives.

Posted by koroviev at 07/07/2009 @ 10:54pm