GOP Know-Nothings Fought Pandemic Preparedness

When House Appropriations Committee chairman David Obey, the Wisconsin Democrat who has long championed investment in pandemic preparation, included roughly $900 million for that purpose in this year's emergency stimulus bill, he was ridiculed by conservative operatives and congressional Republicans.

Obey and other advocates for the spending argued, correctly, that a pandemic hitting in the midst of an economic downturn could turn a recession into something far worse -- with workers ordered to remain in their homes, workplaces shuttered to avoid the spread of disease, transportation systems grinding to a halt and demand for emergency services and public health interventions skyrocketing. Indeed, they suggested, pandemic preparation was essential to any responsible plan for renewing the U.S. economy.

But former White House political czar Karl Rove and key congressional Republicans -- led by Maine Senator Susan Collins -- aggressively attacked the notion that there was a connection between pandemic preparation and economic recovery.

Now, as the World Health Organization says a deadly swine flu outbreak that apparently began in Mexico but has spread to the United States has the potential to develop into a pandemic, Obey's attempt to secure the money seems eerily prescient.

And partisan attacks on his efforts seem not just creepy, but dangerously short-sighted.

The current swine flu outbreak is not a pandemic, and there is reason to hope that it can be contained.

But it has already believed to have killed more than 100 people in a neighboring country and sickened dozens of Americans -- causing the closing of schools and other public facilities in U.S. cities.

Dr. Anne Schuchat, the U.S Centers for Disease Control and Prevention's Interim Deputy Director for Science and Public Health Program, explained to reporters on Saturday that, because the cases that have been discovered so far are so widely spread (in California, Kansas, New York, Ohio and Texas), the outbreak is already "beyond containment."

On Sunday, Homeland Security Secretary Janet Napolitano announced that a national "public health emergency" had been declared. Notably, the second question at the White House press conference on the emergency had to do with the potential impact on the economic recovery.

On Monday, the question began to be answered, as Associated Press reported -- under the headline: "World Markets Struck By Swine Flu Fears" -- that: "World stock markets fell Monday as investors worried that a deadly outbreak of swine flu in Mexico could go global and derail any global economic recovery."

Before U.S. markets opened, the Wall Street Journal reported: "U.S. stock futures fell sharply Monday as the outbreak of deadly swine flu stoked fears that a possible recovery in the global economy could be derailed."

The Dow, after several weeks of surging, finished the day down 51 points, with the Journal headlining a late-day report: "US Stocks Down On Continued Swine Flu Fears."

That's unsettling.

To a great many Americans, the latest developments on the public health and economic fronts are genuinely scary.

Not faked-up, politically self-serving scary, like the arguments Rove advanced in February to frame opposition to the stimulus package Obey crafted in the House.

George Bush's political manipulator dismissed Obey's proposals as "disturbing" and "laden with new spending programs." He said the congressman was peddling a plan based on "deeply flawed assumptions."

Like what?

Rove specifically complained that Obey's proposal included "$462 million for the Centers for Disease Control, and $900 million for pandemic flu preparations."

This was wrong, the political operative charged, because the health care sector added jobs in 2008.

As bizarre as that criticism may sound -- especially now -- Rove's argument was picked up by House and Senate Republicans, who made it an essential message in their attacks on the legislation. Even as Rove and his compatriots argued that a stimulus bill should include initiatives designed to shore-up and maintain any recovery, they consistently, and loudly, objected to spending money to address the potentially devastating economic impact of a major public health emergency.

The attack on pandemic preparation became so central to the GOP strategies that AP reported in February: "Republicans, meanwhile, plan to push for broader and deeper tax cuts, to trim major spending provisions that support Democrats' longer-term policy goals, and to try to knock out what they consider questionable spending items, such as $870 million to combat the flu and $400 million to slow the spread of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases."

Famously, Maine Senator Collins, the supposedly moderate Republican who demanded cuts in health care spending in exchange for her support of a watered-down version of the stimulus, fumed about the pandemic funding: "Does it belong in this bill? Should we have $870 million in this bill? No, we should not."

As late as Sunday, Collins was still using her official website to highlight the fact that she led the fight to strip the pandemic preparedness money out of the Senate's version of the stimulus measure. On Monday, after her machinations with regard to the stimulus bill were revealed, Collins attempted to defend herself, dispatching a spokesman to declare that, "There is no evidence that federal efforts to address the swine flu outbreak have been hampered by a lack of funds."

But, as The Washington Post notes: "Collins and the others who led the fight to axe the flu money three months ago can only hope that doesn't change."

That's because the Republicans essentially succeeded. The Senate version of the stimulus plan included no money whatsoever for pandemic preparedness. In the conference committee that reconciled the House and Senate plans, Obey and his allies succeeded in securing $50 million for improving information systems at the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS).

But state and local governments, and the emergency services that would necessarily be on the frontlines in any effort to contain a pandemic, got nothing.

Did Rove, Collins and their compatriots want a pandemic?

Of course not.

They were just playing politics, in the exceptionally narrow and irresponsible manner that characterized the Republican response to the stimulus debate – and that, because of Democratic compromises in the Senate, dumbed down the plan President Obama ultimately signed.

No serious player in Washington has been unaware of the fears with regard to a flu pandemic. They have been well-publicized and well-discussed. Even Collins admitted as she objected to the House allocation for preparedness: "I think that everybody in the room is concerned about a pandemic flu."

And it is important to point out that no serious player in Washington could have been unaware of the threat that a pandemic -- or even the fear of one -- would pose to economic renewal. Every discussion about a pandemic begins with the public health component but moves quickly to an acknowledgement that an outbreak, and the ensuing quarantines, would bring economic activity to a virtual standstill.

So Rove, Collins and those who echoed their know-nothing appeals understood that they were wrong.

But they bet that they would be able to score their political points without any consequences.

Now that fears of a pandemic have been raised, however, it is appropriate to ask whether individuals who are so manifestly irresponsible and partisan should be taken seriously.

This is an especially important concern with regard to Collins, who portrays herself as a moderate who tries to make things work in Washington.

Senate Democratic leaders bowed to Collins in the process of crafting their chamber's version of the stimulus. In doing so, they eliminated more than 80 percent of the modest amount of money that had been allocated for pandemic preparedness -- and all of the money that would have helped emergency services.

Collins played politics with public health, and the economic recovery. That makes her about as bad a player as you will find in a town full of bad players.

But Senate Democrats bent to her demands. That makes them, at the very least, complicit in the weakening of what needed to be a muscular plan.

The bottom line is that there were no heroes in either party on the Senate side of the ugly process that ridiculed and then eliminated pandemic preparedness funding.

There is, however, a hero on the House side. Throughout the process, David Obey battled to get Congress to recognize that a pandemic would threaten not just public health but a fragile economic recovery.

Comments (181)

1. Rove was at least 1/2 right.

   1. There is no authority for Congress to be spending money on flu viruses.

   2. The proposed money would not have contributed to any stimulus.

   So, wrong on both counts Mr. Nichols.

   Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 12:24pm

2. Hey, Nichols, where were your articles on some "GOP Know-Nothings" who fought off Piracy Preparedness funding in the Porky bill? Or some Conservative "Know-Nothings" who (tried) to fight off Prop-up John Murtha Airport Preparedness funding in the same Porky bill?

   Are we there yet? (I mean Hopey and Changey :)

   Posted by Happy at 04/26/2009 @ 12:34pm

3. The GOP doesn't believe in science. Leave it to them and the ice caps will melt, there will be no volcano preparedness (yeah I'm looking at that dummy Bobby Jindal, the new breed of know-nothing), pretty much every endangered species will vanish, and hurricanes will be taken care of by 'spontaneous' tea partiers who will rush to help their fellow citizens in their time of need in-between protesting the simple fact that they are out of power given their boys' past 8 years of incompetence. Throw in teaching children that the Earth is 6 millennia old, evolution is lie and the hand of God is 'proven' since there is all that lack of evidence, and, while we're at it, vampires exist as does the Easter Bunny and Santa Claus. So big surprise, they ridicule being prepared for pandemics. I guess they're expecting that amazing free market to respond as it always does. The GOP, the medieval party you join when you want to pretend you're at the Renaissance Fair all year long.

   Posted by nukemind at 04/26/2009 @ 1:08pm

4. Posted by nukemind at 04/26/2009 @ 1:08pm

   I'll give you credit for consistently being clueless what conservatives believe.

   Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 1:22pm

5. John, So what was actually cut in the bill. What services were cut. How will these cuts affect average americans today who may get the flu. We already get flu shots. Would this billion dollars have immunized everyone in time? I think there needs to be a lot more information posted other than politics. How bout some substance? Your faithful reader

   Posted by notsleepy at 04/26/2009 @ 1:36pm

6. As usual, conservatives are only concerned with themselves. The first two statements here prove that the authors know less than zero about the proliferation of serious disease and could really care less. On one hand, God meant for it to happen, on the other, don't affect my bottom line, dude. With skewed logical justifications.

   At the heart of this is the fact that the swine flu is a genetic variant, a disease that has morphed into another form that humans don't have a natural immunity to. That kind of mutation puts the disease prevention matter into another category, i.e. preventing a national emergency that would effect travel and tourism around the world, and, by proxy of a hundred other interactions, further effect the world economy as well.

   But you can't stop the money changers and the armageddonites from jumping in before they know anything. Knowing something about this topic would require an interest in it, would require a caring attitude. Just responding to this article to protect the GOP agenda is pretty shallow on the face of it, and deeply cynical.

   Not contribute to any stimulus? A proactive approach to something that could hugely effect the economy at large, keeping in check more downward motion is in itself putting the brakes on degeneration of the financial system (not just investment and real estate). Thing like that are necessary before the stimulus can work at all, on this, and on many other levels.

   Posted by ficheye at 04/26/2009 @ 1:48pm

7. 'll give you credit for consistently being clueless (about) what conservatives believe. Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 1:22pm

   I think that goes for most conservatives as well.

   Posted by ficheye at 04/26/2009 @ 1:50pm

8. It's funny to me the arguments I have read in political sections this weekend.

   A budget is used to project how much money a person or group will need to pay for their expenses.

   Most people use budgets to manage their own personal finances. One budget item is food. If you spend less than you projected, you have an excess.

   Not a terribly hard concept to understand.

   This Administration is intelligent enough to frame all the scenarios and budget accordingly. The are trying to use only ONE budget. Not several like the Bush Administration did.

   The purpose to any budget is to plan for the unexpected and come in UNDER budget.

   Posted by amanda5 at 04/26/2009 @ 2:31pm

9. The purpose to any budget is to plan for the unexpected and come in UNDER budget.

   Posted by amanda5 at 04/26/2009 @ 2:31pm

   Pretty silly, contradictory and brain-twisting statement, Amanda5....but pretty typical for Libs, not that you're one....don't know much about your POV.

   You said: "A budget is used to project how much money a person or group will need to pay for their expenses."

   For the "unexpected", folks don't usually "budget" ! The "unexpected" is NOT supposed to be recurring or have any regularity.....we use `Insurance' to cover this category and spread out the expense over a large number of people/business and over a long time frame.

   Posted by Happy at 04/26/2009 @ 2:39pm

10. This is stupid.

    The World Health organization is on top of this. The US National Institute of Health is on top of this do you really think $900 million would have prevented anyone from ever getting the flu again?

    Pivot on a dime and make the opposite argument of yesterday.

    With respect to torture, we can't know the future. Since we can't be absolutely 100% certain that torturing a terrorist will save one life, it's just not worth it.

    Stop, pivot, Turn around 180%.

    With respect to influenza pandemic, since we can't know for certain whether there will be a flu pandemic, we must spend $900 million in hopes that it might prevent 1 death.

    So far, last I read, ever single case of this ful has made a full recovery. They haven't even had to hospitalize even one out of ten.

    But congressional Republicans are evil because they could have prevented this with $900 million.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/26/2009 @ 3:04pm

11. I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I'm an acutary. I work in the life insurance industry. We spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on consultants and computer models to sutdy pandemics, terrorism, industrial accidents, and natural disasters.

    Maybe Lillian can show up and lecture me on what all the experts beleive regarding pandemcis.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/26/2009 @ 3:11pm

12. John, I have to point out that they are not just playing politics. This is another episode of the neo-con buddy system interfering with the democratic process, only for the sake of itself, believing that they are still 'energizing' their conspiracy. Rove isn't part of the government, he's a neo-con faction boss. He wants to transfer ownership of the government into the hands of a tiny number of corrupt Calvinists. They DO want a pandemic. Pandemics inspire fear in the masses giving those that have their hands on the levers of power another chance to subvert the out of control middle-class, and democracy at large.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 3:22pm

13. It reminds me of the attempts to make fun of Obama when he (correctly) pointed out that maintaining tire pressure was one of many ways to conserve fuel.

    I get it that people can be ignorant; that they can choose to ignore the fact that 80 people have died in Mexico already; that common sense measures can prevent deaths in this country, and that planning ahead is part of the implementation of those common sense measures.

    I understand. People are often apathetic, until things affect them directly; it's not congress' job to give a rats ass about the health of the American people, just as it was not congress' job (and certainly not the President's, apparently) to give a rat's ass about New Orleans. Fine, you want a government that does essentially nothing, I get it, you've made your point, you think that the free market alone and divine intervention are enough to keep your boat afloat.

    What I don't get, though, is how people can be so damn PROUD of their ignorance, that they wear it like a badge. They actually want the world to know how ignorant they are. They ridicule others for being thoughtful and wanting to plan ahead, for deciding that principles matter (torture is not wrong because it's statistically unlikely to yield results; torture is wrong because its torture. period), for thinking that decisions should be made on evidence and not out of fear... THAT's the part I don't understand.

    Posted by canaro71 at 04/26/2009 @ 3:27pm

14. I don't know if I've ever mentioned this, but I'm an acutary. I work in the life insurance industry.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/26/2009 @ 3:11pm

    You have told us numerous times, and misspelled it as well, a cautionary note.

    You misspelled 'pandemic' as well, another cautionary note.

    and then.."So far, last I read, ever single case of this ful (flu) has made a full recovery. They haven't even had to hospitalize even one out of ten."

    Mexican officials said 20 people had been killed by the outbreak in Mexico and 1,004 people had been infected.

    What distinguishes the so-called "Spanish Flu" pandemic of 1918, as well as the H5N1 (Avian) from ordinary influenza is that these are respiratory viruses that kill healthy young adults, sparing the usual victims who are the elderly, immune compromised and infants. These strains do this by eliciting an overresponse from an otherwise very robust, healthy immune system, creating a cytokine storm, and usually infecting the lungs. The victim drowns in his own secretions, basically. So those with normal, healthy immune systems are the victims of these more dangerous viral strains.

    Not to mention the fact that if the victims don't die, it makes the spread of the disease even more likely.

    This isn't doomsday talk. These are just facts. We can try to protect against the next flu pandemic, or we can blame eveything on "Hopey, Changey" as Happy like to say.

    Posted by ficheye at 04/26/2009 @ 3:34pm

15. This is rediculous, money for a "pandemic" does not belong in a stimulous bill. This just popped up out of nowhere and funding is easy to get - in the era of trillion dollar budgets, 100 million is chump change. Just borrow it like everything else and deal with the problem and stop whining. There are always going to be unforseen emergencies that occur and the system kicks into gear and does what it has to. This is a non issue.

    Posted by pyeatte at 04/26/2009 @ 3:44pm

16. This is rediculous, money for a "pandemic" does not belong in a stimulous bill. This just popped up out of nowhere and funding is easy to get - in the era of trillion dollar budgets, 100 million is chump change. Just borrow it like everything else and deal with the problem and stop whining. There are always going to be unforseen emergencies that occur and the system kicks into gear and does what it has to. This is a non issue.

    Posted by pyeatte at 04/26/2009 @ 3:44pm |

    pyeatte do you understand why the euro is worth more than the dollar? The reason is that the most populace and developed member nations have a smart service net in place to protect their workforce. Mostly health care and plans which cover a workers downtime. Not to mention free tuition at universities. Items that create the best possible environment for business, therefore the tax base. Ask a factory manager what 2 days of downtime does to a large production plant. If your work force is healthy enough to be at work producing at full potential the economic benefits far outweigh the sticker shock of the initial outlays.

    Having a disaster plan in place to deal with a flu pandemic would be a modest but important component to a nation's economic engine. It's time for the U.S. to get on board with this thinking before we sink to far into disarray and obscurity.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 3:56pm

17. Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 3:56pm:

    The CDC and the WHO has plans that kick-in for events like this. The first swine flu outbreak was in the 70s. Vaccine got out and I got a shot as did most other people that wanted one. This is a new strain and was impossible to predict. I am just saying the healthcare system is already setup to deal with this. Any additional money will be made available as needed just like it always is.

    Posted by pyeatte at 04/26/2009 @ 4:03pm

18. Posted by pyeatte at 04/26/2009 @ 4:03pm

    They really are not ready to control anything like the scale of N. America. The CDC's plan is to shut down and quarantine everything, with catastrophic consequences. The WHO wouldn't have the interest or resources to do it. Their first question would be, what have to done to prepare for this? Did you follow our recommendations for these last decades? And we have not. We would be at fault. The best they could do is advise other nations to bar any goods or persons from the U.S. from entering their country.

    Flu readiness is handled on a national level. Right now the Fed has to purchase flu vaccines. The companies don't make any profit from it due to to tooling issues. Under our system they only make one run per year, the one ordered, and that has serious cost overhead to make the changeover every year.

    In other countries it is treated as a national security issue. Pharma companies keep a steady and adequate flow moving, Canada is a good example. They sell a number of surplus vaccines, but don't commit production to it because government orders from abroad are flaky, as we're seeing now.

    The only solution is a real home grown plan that can defend us from harm, while keeping the store open. If we get hit right now it would be a huge disaster.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 4:19pm

19. "...I am just saying the healthcare system is already setup to deal with this. Any additional money will be made available as needed just like it always is."

    ~pyeatte at 4:03pm

    Here is a fine example of the crux of much of the problem of running a smooth democracy.

    Pyeatte fairly frequently comes in here and issues proclamations that are not entirely foolish necessarily, but typically uninformed. Probably all of us are guilty of this at least some of the time, but why is it that we can so often feel completely free to blow our horns about subjects where we are not only not experts but clearly haven't even lifted a finger to gather some background information to buttress the point we are making.

    We see this all too commonly in letters to the editor of our local newspapers. Citizens write in with strong opinions and very little or even zero supporting evidence to back their views.

    The "contributor" to these blogs A Cook once accused me of being simply a cut and paste blogger here because I very often reference stuff I've read to make a point or offer something I consider valuable content for thought. Isn't that exactly what we ought to be doing, people?

    No one can sit here and claim to be the font of great opinion(s) and pretend that it just came to them in some sort of champagne supernova of brilliance. We are all simply the aggregation of our experiences and the inputs from the waters we swim in.

    And finally, in praise the inspiration I gathered from the fine little piece above by Canar071, shouldn't we make it a habit to seek out the richest waters and in turn share those experiences with others in an effort to enrich the larger ocean we all swim in?

    Shouldn't that be our badge of honor? That we are at least attempting to contribute to the

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/26/2009 @ 4:35pm

20. richness of the culture in whatever small way we can?

    I believe we can do better here, bloggers.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/26/2009 @ 4:35pm

21. No one can sit here and claim to be the font of great opinion(s) and pretend that it just came to them in some sort of champagne supernova of brilliance. We are all simply the aggregation of our experiences and the inputs from the waters we swim in. Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/26/2009 @ 4:35pm

    Can I have more, please?

    Very well put. Nice summation b-cool.

    Posted by ficheye at 04/26/2009 @ 5:09pm

22. Ficheye,

    I enjoyed your posts regarding swine flu generalities and the stuff on H5N1 and Spanish flu as well.

    Informative and useful.

    Keep swimming in the waters you gracefully occupy.

    :D

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 04/26/2009 @ 5:26pm

23. Rove was at least 1/2 right.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 12:24pm

    Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day, huh?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/26/2009 @ 5:37pm

24. Rove was at least 1/2 right.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 12:24pm

    Hey, even a broken clock is right twice a day, huh?

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/26/2009 @ 5:37pm

    Wait, him or Rove? Let's say both, but not at the same time. Not in this case anyways.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 5:47pm

25. John, I have to point out that they are not just playing politics. This is another episode of the neo-con buddy system interfering with the democratic process, only for the sake of itself, believing that they are still 'energizing' their conspiracy. Rove isn't part of the government, he's a neo-con faction boss. He wants to transfer ownership of the government into the hands of a tiny number of corrupt Calvinists. They DO want a pandemic. Pandemics inspire fear in the masses giving those that have their hands on the levers of power another chance to subvert the out of control middle-class, and democracy at large.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 3:22pm

    "Interfering with the democratic process"? Perhaps you need some new professors if you believe that presenting contrasting opinions and solutions is interference.

    That's exactly what the democratic process is.

    The balance of your comments are even more ignorant, and displays either a profound ignorance of conservative beliefs or you are just another young leftist who believes everything his teachers and professors tell him.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 6:03pm

26. Articles like this really brings the Trolls out, proving, once again, that The Nation is still doing things right, and reporting on the right issues.

    It is interesting to note that these "conservatives" are too quick to point out that the preventive measures that would have been put in place with the proposed $ 900 spending have "no place" in the budget... and Happy's assertion that "For the "unexpected", folks don't usually "budget" ! The "unexpected" is NOT supposed to be recurring or have any regularity.....we use `Insurance' to cover this category and spread out the expense over a large number of people/business and over a long time frame." painfully illustrates this lot's ignorance and limited tunnel vision. Hey Dope! Insurance, as a matter of public health relates to the measures enacted for the preparedness of the country to meet unforeseeable health threats. This is not like purchasing insurance just in case you get into a collision. Ever heard of closing the door to the barn before the cattle gets out? See, with these guys you have to get down to the level of farm analogies for them to get it (no offense meant to farmers, who as a general rule are hard working, and practical folk, above all).

    To top it off, I'd find it laugh-out-loud funny, if it wasn't so pathetic that these folks are the first ones to buy into multi-billion dollar wasteful science fiction fantasies such as Star Wars and Berlin type walls to keep away the brown hordes, but go totally nuts when it comes to public health and or emergency preparedness and infrastructure.

    Trolls indeed.

    Posted by DopeDaddy at 04/26/2009 @ 6:48pm

27. Rove was wrong (of course). Any money spent, be it for building bridges or shoring up the CDC, will have a stimulative affect on the economy. That $900M will go to hire staff and update equipment. In turn that money will "trickle down" to people who supply goods and services to the new staff ( from grocery stores to hair dressers) and to people who manufacture and distribute the new equipment. The theory behind the stimulus package was that the private sector, due to financial market losses and banks restricted lending policies) no longer had the wherewithal to create economic activity so the government was the only big player left that could step in and start economic activity rolling again. And it seems to be working.

    Oh, BTW, its no surprise that Dave Obey was right. He usually is.

    Posted by Soupy George at 04/26/2009 @ 6:54pm

28. Oh, BTW, its no surprise that Dave Obey was right. He usually is.

    Posted by Soupy George at 04/26/2009 @ 6:

    I'm still waiting to see Obey right on anything.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 7:36pm

29. The GOP did such a great job with the Katrina disaster why would we even listen to them? Why are they invited for input?

    Mrs. Bush said the Katrina victims would be better off without their homes. and we listen to these people why?

    Who would think Republicans have anything of value to contribute to the discussion. They know nothing about disasters. They believe government is just in the way of the big corporate conglomerate rip off ponzi scam that is Wall Street that they love so much.

    Posted by guitarsandmore805 at 04/26/2009 @ 8:20pm

30. You are cruel and selfish.

    The shadows of the children who you have killed will pursue you for eternity.

    Jesus is very, very disappointed.

    Posted by davidobey at 04/26/2009 @ 8:23pm

31. Not you, guitarman. ☮

    Posted by davidobey at 04/26/2009 @ 8:25pm

32. Damn fools...they never look ahead unless it is beneficial to them. People will die, and the R's don't care. I can't think of anything they have done that benefits the nation as a whole. It's all about enriching themselves, and the people be damned.

    Posted by rasputin195 at 04/26/2009 @ 9:45pm

33. The balance of your comments are even more ignorant, and displays either a profound ignorance of conservative beliefs or you are just another young leftist who believes everything his teachers and professors tell him.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 6:03pm

    Tell us what conservative beliefs are in your own words.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 9:54pm

34. Tell us what conservative beliefs are in your own words.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 9:54pm

    "If dolphins are so smart, why do they get caught in those fishing nets all the time?"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/26/2009 @ 10:34pm

35. Mr. Nichols has a long way to go to make Demoncrat Obey "the new age Prophet from Wisconsin"! You know of course the test for prophecy is being 100% accuracy and Obey does'nt even pass the smell test!

    Maybe you should talk more about the "Know Nothing Demoncrats" and the Obamanation that makes desolation who have SAT on their HANDS while 6 million American lost their jobs and retail sales have almost bottomed out to nothing (along with the jobs)!

    They could have used the Trillions of dollars now committed to Porkulus powere grab spending to create jobs, rescue failing main street businesses, failing industries, and boost American manufactoring and the GDP!

    Instead they are too intent on building their kingdom and securing a "slave" voter base for the future while failing to secure our borders from the illegal alien influx and who knows what other criminal and anti-American terror infiltrators.

    Now they declare religious family centered, careing Americans and our servicemen as the ultimate threats to freedom and paint them all as dangerous extremist!

    What kind of sick perverted minds dream this stuff up? Answer; Obamanation's administration and the Demoncrats. Easy to see why so many believe they serve the father of all Liars and his doomed kingdom!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 04/26/2009 @ 10:45pm

36. "If dolphins are so smart, why do they get caught in those fishing nets all the time?"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/26/2009 @ 10:34pm

    True. At least Cartman knows what he is. I don't think that guy has any idea what being conservative means. I think that he thinks it means Reagan/Bush, when it actually means Eisenhower. Neither Reagan or Jr. were conservatives. They both expanded government, and taxation, and ran up record breaking deficits that crippled the nation for decades. The latest being what, $11 trillion when Jr. left? Big government indeed.

    Here's a little perspective on what Bush's 8 years of deficits means in different terms. http://www.mint.com/blog/finance-core/visualizing-one-trillion-dollars/

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 11:15pm

37. Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 11:15pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    So that is justification for Obamanation and the Demoncrats outspending 8 years of G.W.Bush in 3 months and all we get is NOT even a lousy T-shirt?

    Posted by comancheamerican at 04/26/2009 @ 11:19pm

38. This blog sure got off track...

    Posted by pyeatte at 04/26/2009 @ 11:29pm

39. hey rio,

    what do think of this one?

    http://www.chrisjordan.com/images/current/1114177058.jpg

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/26/2009 @ 11:30pm

40. i have long since given up trying to reason with anyone from the republican party because no matter what is said just because it comes from anyone democratic will be opposed.

    i hope Pres. Obama realizes this and stops trying to appease them, its hopeless. they are being difficult on purpose just to be difficult and will never admit being wrong. i learned it is best to just ignore them as you would a 4 year when they are trying to get their way.

    Posted by autoprt at 04/26/2009 @ 11:40pm

41. I'll give you credit for consistently being clueless what conservatives believe.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 1:22pm

    Given your posts, I'm gonna guess that your 'credit' is somewhat akin to toxic economic assets.

    Posted by nukemind at 04/27/2009 @ 01:30am

42. If we don't give govt entities money they will not function.

    If they do not function the neo-cons idea of govt is proven correct.

    Or, if we put incompetent people in charge, or industry insiders in charge, govt will not function,

    and the neo-con idea of govt is proven correct.

    See how it works?

    ----

    Tell us what conservative beliefs are in your own words.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 9:54pm

    Check out the latest Taliban web postings. You will find agreement with ANTI's posting probably 85% of the time.

    Posted by crabwalk at 04/27/2009 @ 06:26am

43. Amazing how the Republicans in Congress keep rolling snake eyes. Jindal mocks funding for volcano monitoring and, presto, a volcano in Alaska gets ready to blow. They force a funding cut for pandemic preparedness and, bing bang, we have a potential flu monster on our hands.

    Honestly, what good are we as a society if we're going to dump on the poor, the diseased and the weak. Maybe I missed something, but in the Land of Plenty, with a lot more than enough to go around, can't we provide even a minimum standard of secure living for everybody? Or are we so concerned with trying to outdo everybody else, it matters not who gets crushed, as long as they're at the bottom of the economic ladder?

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 07:01am

44. I'd like to try to reiterate my point made earlier.

    To torture or not to torture?

    To spend $900 million or not?

    Torturing and spending $900 million both have the POTENTIAL to save thousands of lives. They even have the POTENTIAL to save millions of lives.

    But, neither can be guaranteed to save even one life.

    So what's the difference? Is is that torture is immoral and spending $900 million is "science"?

    No.

    The only difference is that torture offends your sensibilites and spending $900 million of other peoples' money does not.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 07:27am

45. Honestly, what good are we as a society if we're going to dump on the poor, the diseased and the weak.

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 07:01am

    So far, the conversation has implied that the Republicans were given a choise to spend $900 million or zero.

    Does anyone know what we currently spend on pandemic preparedness? I know it's not zero.

    So the question is to spend 1B v.s 1.9B

    or maybe it's 10B v. 10.9B

    or maybe its 100B vs. 100.9B

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 07:30am

46. It may be a little soon for this end of the world rhetoric. It's a safe way to play it. If everyone dies and the world economy disintegrates, the Nation can say "I told you so," and if nothing happens they can just forget they ever mentioned it. This approach isn't good for my heart though. Can we please wait until something happens before we cry Pandemic!

    Posted by sixstringsam at 04/27/2009 @ 07:59am

47. <i>Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 07:30am </i>

    Right, I think that's the real issue. The author just blatantly assumes that we don't currently have spending relative to pandemics (either national spending or state/local spending) without ever justifying this implicit (yet crucial) assumption.

    Moreover, I should hit antisocialist's argument about the Commerce Clause real quick because it's unimpressive. The Commerce Clause allows government regulation of three things:

    1) Channels of interstate commerce 2) Instrumentalities of interstate commerce (i.e. the stuff that passes through interstate commerce) 3) Things substantially affecting interstate commerce (allowed by either the Clause itself or the Clause + the Necessary and Proper Clause)

    Pandemic preparation unmistakably falls into #3, which means that for antisocialist's argument to hold, he has to say that #3 is invalid. I think he's got his work cut out for him...

    Posted by Thrawn at 04/27/2009 @ 08:22am

48. We're (the trolls) are often asked why we come here. For me, it's mostly to learn, but I try to you all learn as well. One of the things we need help with is spotting or blind spots. Where are we hypocritical without regocnizing it?

    Hopefully you can appreciate the hypocritical double standard between shouting me down when I say torture PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives, but then shouting me down again when I challenge your assertion that this $900 million that was taken out only a month or so ago, PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives when neither of us can know with certainty what the opportunity cost of the path not taken is.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 08:37am

49. And when we can't know the future, all we can base our decsions on are perceptions of risk.

    For some risks, like death, we can construct models from past experience, but that is no guaranteed that the future will be like the past. We can use statistics to construct confidence intervals using means and variences, but even then, sometimes unlikely events occur (a one in 500 year flood).

    For some risks, like hurricanes, the models are constructed on top of random processes (like weather) that introduce even more uncertainty into the projections.

    For other risks, like exposure to equity market movements, we can be certain that the furture will not be like the past.

    The world is not deterministic. At it's core, reality is constructed on top of random processes. Even flu virus transmission is a random process.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 08:45am

50. Two more, then I gotta run. Here's what the expensive consultants are telling us:

    The evidence suggests that at the very least there is a widespread public health issue, and a strong possibility that this will be a pandemic, causing a major wave of illness in many countries and locations. We can expect to see reported cases in many cities across the US and a rapid spread of infected cases to other countries in the next days and weeks. If countries respond quickly and strongly to the threat, studies suggest that the overall impact, in terms of deaths and people made sick, can be greatly reduced. Stockpiles of antiviral drugs and pandemic supplies are high and preparedness plans are well-developed, so there is a good likelihood of an effective response. The next few days will clarify the characteristics of the virus and help firm up the projections of potential impact. Current evidence, discussed below and still scanty, suggests that a resulting pandemic would be of moderate severity with some chance that it could be severe. A pandemic of this severity will be disruptive, and may add to the current economic crisis.

    ******************************************************

    So the first point is that the $900 million of "stimulus" axed a month ago wouldn't make any difference.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 09:05am

51. Also regarding "randomness" is a connected concept, "virulence". ************************************************************

    Virus Virulence: Worse than seasonal flu but probably less virulent than the 1918 virus

    To date, there have been 1,614 people hospitalized in Mexico suspected of having this strain, and 20 in United States. In Mexico, 103 people have died (none have yet died in US). An important metric to assess the danger of this virus is its virulence or ‘pathogenicity' – i.e. the mortality level of those infected, measured as Death per Case (DpC). We can be more confident that the death total is fairly accurate, but the total number of people who might have been infected is much more difficult to estimate because many cases are likely to be mild and may not be reported to a physician or not recognized as a different strain of flu. A typical ratio of actual cases to those hospitalized is likely to be between 2 to 10. This would give a case load estimate of between 3,000 and 16,000 people infected, and would suggest that the virus virulence is between 3.4% and 0.6% Death per Case. As context, the 1918 pandemic had a Death per Case of 2.5%, so when case loads are properly counted this virus could turn out to be as virulent or worse than the 1918, but it is more likely to be of significantly lower virulence. It seems to be considerably more deadly than normal seasonal flu, which has a DpC of around 0.1% but evidently does not have a virulence anywhere near as severe as the H5N1 ‘avian flu' virus in the outbreak of 2006-07, which had a DpC of over 50%. In general this is likely to be classed as a ‘Low Pathogenicity' influenza virus.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 09:06am

52. Tell us what conservative beliefs are in your own words.

    Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 9:54pm

    Conservative belief centers around the foundation that the founders got it right on the structure and impact of the federal govt on the republic as a whole.

    the Federal govt is constitutionally structured to have as little impact on the economic freedom and choices of it's citizens as possible.

    The Federal govt is constitutionally structured so that most of the power rests with the states and the people (10th amendment).

    The Federal Govt is one of enumerated powers so as to limit it's reach on the states and the people.

    Conservative belief says that the purpose of the Supreme Court is to interpret the constitution against a)legislation passed by Congress and/or state and local govts, and b)other decisions implemented by govt that citizens believe violate their constitutional rights and freedoms.

    It is not the role of the Supreme Court to CREATE new rights or to legislate from the Bench.

    Madison himself commented that he didn't see the need for a Bill of Rights since it was redundant to the Constitution itself. No powers he said were given to any of the 3 branches to limit speech, or press, or religion as an example.

    More: conservatives agree with Chief Justice Marshall in McCulloch v Maryland that the "power to tax is the power to destroy". This has been self evident since the passing and implementation of the 16th amendment.

    the great hero of conservative thought is Edmund Burke

    "People crushed by laws, have no hope but to evade power. If the laws are their enemies, they will be enemies to the law; and those who have most to hope and nothing to lose will always be dangerous."

    more

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:07am

53. 1. There is no authority for Congress to be spending money on flu viruses.

    I'm pretty sure it does actually.

    "The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States"

    I'm pretty sure the common defence could have quite likely meant potential pandemics that could not only kill people but also cripple your economy as people start to shut down import of US products to prevent the disease from reaching their countries. I'm not saying this is a pandemic but I'm almost certain that disease falls into the common Defence.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:11am

54. "Conservative belief centers around the foundation that the founders got it right on the structure and impact of the federal govt on the republic as a whole. "

    Considering even the founders disagreed this is an amazing statement.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:12am

55. Milhaus,

    I don't often quote liberal Democrats, but liberal Democrats pre-1970 were much different from todays leftist Democrats.

    Here is Woodrow Wilson expressing conservative principles.

    "Liberty has never come from the government. Liberty has always come from the subjects of government. The history of liberty is the history of resistance. The history of liberty is a history of the limitation of governmental power, not the increase of it." -- Woodrow Wilson

    And from an outsider

    "The America Republic will endure until the day Congress discovers that it can bribe the public with the public's money." -- Alexis de Tocqueville

    Another key conservative principle from the founder of the Democratic Party

    That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves. -- Thomas Jefferson

    More from some of our Founders

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself." -- John Stuart Mill

    "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty teeth and keystone under independence." -- George Washington

    And one of my heroes

    "I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts."

    Ronald Reagan

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:16am

56. Hopefully you can appreciate the hypocritical double standard between shouting me down when I say torture PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives, but then shouting me down again when I challenge your assertion that this $900 million that was taken out only a month or so ago, PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives when neither of us can know with certainty what the opportunity cost of the path not taken is.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 08:37am

    Problem is Darin, this isn't hypocrisy. You are talking about two different things, the spending of money versus the inhumane treatment of a human being. Frankly if you think money is equal to a human life I think you need help. Yes torture MIGHT have been able to save a person. BUT the two cases are entirely different. You are talking about breaching treaties to commit and illegal act, sullying the name of our country and TORTURING A LIVING HUMAN BEING to get what for all intensive purposes is most likely entirely worthless intel.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:17am

57. "I hope we have once again reminded people that man is not free unless government is limited. There's a clear cause and effect here that is as neat and predictable as a law of physics: as government expands, liberty contracts."

    Ronald Reagan

    Coming from a man who government expanded under....

    "War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."

    I know how YOU interpret this. That we should fight every country who looks at us funny but defending ourselves is a different deal. The founders pressed very hard to make sure we did not insert ourselves into constant warfare and tried very hard to push us towards a policy of isolationism and they warned against the encroaching of what is the military industrial complex. I guess you think they got that wrong though?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:21am

58. We already have a half trillion dollar military budget that pays for, among other things, B2 bombers at $2B a pop - that's more than twice the $900M requested for pandemics - and it's still not enough. We have an alphabet soup of security agencies that managed to ignore, or misplay, depending upon whom you believe, warnings the world over, only to torture a "confession" after the fact out of a guy ready to take responsibility for everything but the assassination of Archduke Ferdinand, and we're here quibbling about a lousy $900M that might actually help stop or prevent deadly disease. We have used all our weaponry, excluding the nuke option, and all our bluster to fight a "cakewalk" with no end in sight. What has torture helped prevent exactly? "We don't know," is always the convenient answer, but we can't use the same logic to try preventing the spread of deadly disease. The great god Reagan turned his back on AIDS. How did that turn out? Kind of like the war in Iraq, I'd say.

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 09:24am

59. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 07:27am

    Intelligence and law enforcement officials - not exactly my favorite people, by the way - have argued for years that torture is generally speaking an ineffective way to get information. Does this mean they could never forsee an instance, a so-called "Jack Bauer" moment, in which they would use it? No, but there are better methods to use as a standard practice.

    It is unlikely that the $900 million proposed for pandemic preparedness would have helped this time, but public health measures have a long track record of cutting down incidences of disease and preparating for an outbreak seems to be a rather logical and prudent idea. It's sort of like all of that postponed infrastructure spending that is now biting us in the tush. The butcher's bill for a future outbreak may well be higher without it.

    Posted by cka2nd at 04/27/2009 @ 09:33am

60. The great god Reagan turned his back on AIDS. How did that turn out? Kind of like the war in Iraq, I'd say.

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 09:24am

    Both successful. there is no AIDS pandemic in this country. It strikes people engaged in poor behavioral choices and unfortunately those that they inflict. But the percentage is very small.

    Iraq has been successful to all but the media and the left.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:35am

61. Iraq has been successful to all but the media and the left.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:35am

    HAHAHA. Yeah I'm sure all those Iraqis that right now are terrified because the Sunnis might turn back to their old ways and those people who died in the last two suicide bombings and the death rate that for some reason went WAY up this month is a sure sign of mission accomplished. Iraq is barely surviving and is on the tipping point of falling back to chaos. Just because you choose to put your blinders on doesn't mean it changes the situation. The only reason that country was doing alright was because we paid and controlled the Sunnis. The second we leave and the divisions open back up, like they are doing now, that country will fall back into chaos. It's BARELY holding together now.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:46am

62. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone here would even bother to respond to the satanic preacher, Darin the self confessed troll, happy the captain of finance et al.

    Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 10:08am

63. Both successful. there is no AIDS pandemic in this country. It strikes people engaged in poor behavioral choices and unfortunately those that they inflict. Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:35am

    Yes, such poor behavioral models as Arthur Ashe, infected by AIDS tainted blood during surgery. "You don't know" how many other lower profile innocents might have suffered the same fate. To date 25 million plus have died worldwide, with 2.5 million new infections in 2007 and sub-Saharan Africa ravaged by the disease. Not a pandemic?

    In Iraq, sectarian violence is again on the rise, a vicious cycle repeated ad nauseum the last five plus years. If it's such a success to everybody but us here on "the left," why oh why won't the military let us leave?

    The answer to both questions: "Uh, we don't know."

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 10:15am

64. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone here would even bother to respond to the satanic preacher, Darin the self confessed troll, happy the captain of finance et al.

    Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 10:08am | ignore this person | warn this person

    Sometimes, it's just plain fun getting them to employ their twisted logic in defense of the indefensible. You do wonder how they function in everyday society, though.

    Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 10:21am

65. Since Swine Flu is usually only diagnosed in pigs and people in regular contact with them, I was wondering if this strain of Swine Flu would predominantly attack only Republcans, Conservatives and Blue Dog Democrats.

    Just a thought..

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 11:00am

66. This being America, of course, our main concern with a pandemic is how it might impact the stock market.

    Posted by Chuck 22A at 04/27/2009 @ 11:02am

67. Really, JOHN NICHOLS your penchant for finding ways to blame republicans for almost everything is reaching neurotic proportions. People will begin to question your competence soon. Repeat after me:

    We are all Americans here We all care about the country

    We are all Americans here We all care about the country

    We are.....

    Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 11:08am

68. funds for volcano monitoring in alaska? pandemic preperation???

    PORK BARRELL!!! EARMARKS!!!!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/27/2009 @ 11:18am

69. We are all Americans here We all care about the country. Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 11:08am

    No we are not all Americans and all of us do not care about this country.

    e.g. Sean Hannity, Rush Limbaugh, Bill 0', Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove et al.

    These are people who are anything but Americans.

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 11:21am

70. It is so nice to see that the Nation has been invaded with Know Nothing Trolls...

    yeah, T-baggers!

    You really attract independents and swing voters by not understanding that pandemics and volcano eruptions might effect the economy.

    For all your dressing up as Civil War Re-enactors and fake Sam Adams....

    your understanding of history is sadly bereft.

    I guess you think FEMA is a waste of the taxpayer's money,too...

    that is if any of you paid any taxes.

    In the meantime, how is this marginalization thing working out for you guys?

    Posted by nanorich at 04/27/2009 @ 11:25am

71. The Spanish flu killed 21,642,274 worldwide and 200,000 in the US alone, and that was long before air travel was widespread. The question is not if will there be another major epidemic, but when. The constantly mutating flu viruses are like using a huge many chambered revolver in Russian Roulette, no matter how lucky you are, if you keep playing sooner or later your luck will run out.

    All spending is stimulus, and while things like hog museums are not the best investments possible they employ people and create demand for materials. On the other end of the usefulness spectrum are things that prevent catastrophes like volcano monitoring and epidemic preparedness. These are still stimulus, but they are more important because they are also insurance against likely threats to our lives.

    Consider the fact if the securities that brought us to the current economic disaster had been evaluated and insured properly, we would not be in the current mess. Is epidemic preparedness really the best place to scrimp, considering the stakes?

    Posted by macrumpton at 04/27/2009 @ 11:40am

72. Like it has been said. "Never underestimate the willingness of the GOP to put politics over the interests of the nation".

    The filibuster of Obama's choice to head the HHS by a bunch of anti-choice rightwing nutcases has undoubtedly left us less prepared to face a pandemic then we otherwise would be.

    Thanks a bunch Mitch McConnell! What a clueless Asshole..

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 11:43am

73. Just ANOTHER example of the Repug-Lie-Cons ignorance of anything related to science. Always forgetting their ignorant rant exposes even more of their true stupidity. Always spewing to discredit the hard sciences as just "theory" (It's ALL just theory), BUT, forgetting their Free-market Economics is JUST A LOWER LEVEL, SOFT SCIENCE, THEORY.

    Posted by Real1 at 04/27/2009 @ 11:53am

74. So Bushitler and his evil minions thwarted efforts at pandemic preparedness? Oh really?

    Check out this article from November 2005 titled "Bush unveils $7.1 billion plan to prepare for flu pandemic" -http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/11/01/us.flu.plan/

    Mr. Nichols, if you need a research assistant (or editor???) let me know. Perhaps we could work something out.

    Posted by Paul955 at 04/27/2009 @ 12:20pm

75. CHAOSZEN

    Your prejudice is showing,Chaozen. They are no more the enemy than John Kennedy is a traitor for being a Democrats (an absurd assumption bt Ann Coulter). People like Limbaugh and Hannity (and Olbermann and Huffington) cherry pick their facts to feed their own misguided and misleading opinions. When they talk about the "Polarization of America", people like the four above are a big part of that problem. Nichols has been brainwashed and I'm merely saying so.

    The best thing for all of US would be for all of THEM to find a nice piece of property somewhere on the Moon and go there.

    Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 12:21pm

76. I want to just spew at the cluelessness of the faithful who continue to support anything that their masters tell them to.

    Look, guys, the money wasn't supposed to prevent the occurrence of flu. It was, until stripped from the bill, supposed to help the state health departments identify cases so they could keep track of the spread, provide conditions for identifying and treating sick people before they could infect more people, get testing kits and antivirals to the states so that the CDC didn't have to do everything, ... As it is now, there may be small outbreaks in every state of the union that no one knows about because the surveillance isn't in place. That's one of the main things a public health system is supposed to do. The Bushies shut down what once was a fairly reliable system and replaced it with vaccines against smallpox. Rep. Obey was trying to rebuild it so that when something like this came along, we could better manage the outbreak. Now we can't.

    Thanks, guys. Unfortunately, like in drunk driving accidents, it is usually the innocent that will die in this pandemic, not the people responsible for the shutting down the defense against it.

    Posted by danmiller at 04/27/2009 @ 12:22pm

77. And one of my heroes

    Ronald Reagan

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 09:16am

    larry, you dolt.

    your neighbours are losing there jobs because of reagan's stupidity.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 12:26pm

78. The world is not deterministic. At it's core, reality is constructed on top of random processes. Even flu virus transmission is a random process.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 08:45am

    and so is your typing!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 12:32pm

79. Even Repug-Lie-Con (Capt. Secession) Gov. "DUH" Perry is asking the "invasive, too-expensive federal government" for help.

    Can you say ..."HILLBILLY HYPOCRITE?"

    http://www.sanmarcosrecord.com/local/local_story_115145845.html

    Posted by Real1 at 04/27/2009 @ 12:47pm

80. I cannot for the life of me understand why anyone here would even bother to respond to the satanic preacher, Darin the self confessed troll, happy the captain of finance et al.

    Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 10:08am

    Yes Emile, we understand that you neither tolerate anyone with a view different than your own, nor do you believe enough in your own views to engage in democratic debate.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 12:50pm

81. larry, you dolt.

    your neighbours are losing there jobs because of reagan's stupidity.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 12:26pm

    None of my neighbors has lost their job and Ronald Reagan has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current recession.

    Do you believe FZ that all recessions are avoidable?

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 12:55pm

82. Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 12:21pm

    There is absolutely no way I can to respond to that cobbled up mess of a post without killing myself. So I chose not to..

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 1:03pm

83. DopeDaddy

    You said "....Articles like this really brings the Trolls out, proving, once again, that The Nation is still doing things right, and reporting on the right issues. ......"

    So essentially you believe that if The Nation tweaks the buttons of Conservatives (you say Trolls) then it is an indicator that The Nation is on the right track?

    Funny, I make the same statement about Sarah Palin, that she gets leftists all riled up!

    (Mask, when you get back from vacation, what do you have to say about that?)

    Then you (DopeDaddy) say "..... Ever heard of closing the door to the barn before the cattle gets out? See, with these guys you have to get down to the level of farm analogies for them to get it (no offense meant to farmers, who as a general rule are hard working, and practical folk, above all)....."

    The answer to your question would be NO.

    1. It's HORSE, not cattle!

    2. I do not believe, in most cases, cattle are kept in a barn at all. COWS are kept in a barn, at least in places where it is going to be below zero in the winter. Cows are in no hurry to go anywere, and do not walk out of barns usually even if the door is open unless something were to happen such as a fire.

    3. You win the lib sterotype of the year award. You say you mean no offense to farmers, but by saying you have to use "farm analogies" for them (apparently Conservatives) to "get it" you of course are offending farmers. If farmers are "hard working practical folk" (DopeDaddy, you are imitiating VP Biden with your language) then why is a "farm analogy" appropriate?

    Posted by sjchermak at 04/27/2009 @ 1:07pm

84. Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 12:50pm

    Larry, your views are so far off the chart lately that any attempt at usefull debate would be a waste of time.

    But by all means keep posting. You take the cake as the most intelligent of all the putrid worms that post here.

    If you are the best y'all got we have nothing to worry about.

    And a plus is, I chuckle and snort everytime you post. It's good for morale.

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 1:12pm

85. Sometimes, it's just plain fun getting them to employ their twisted logic in defense of the indefensible. You do wonder how they function in everyday society, though. Posted by kennyboy at 04/27/2009 @ 10:21am

    Exactly. But they don't function in everyday society. The conservatives who are blogging here are a select crew, a herd of kangaroos bounding around in a fenced enclosure, murmuring 'Reagan' under their breaths to help forget George Bush. It's truly a miracle of dissociative thinking. And a lot of fun. I'm gonna go get an elephant ear.

    Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 1:20pm

86. Posted by sjchermak at 04/27/2009 @ 1:07pm

    Hey Schworm! If you have ever noticed when we discuss Sarah Palin we do so with tongue in cheek. Riled Up? I hardly think so. Humored Up? yes indeeeed..

    We like nothing better than when you think you have a viable candidate in a white trash neanderthal throwback from Alaska that can see Russia from her house..

    Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 1:21pm

87. People just eat right (that would be no meat, especially Swine, in this case) go veggie/vegan/raw - and your natural immune system will take care of you. Not to mention most of these so called epidemics are laboratory created, by the same Pharmacutical Industrial Complex that wants to SELL you there vaccines and medicines. I mean seriously, how many of you out there had or personally know anyone who had any of these so called epidemics?! To me this is just another fear mongering means of CONTROL. But hey, I take care of myself and eat healthy so I am not too worried. Good Luck!

    Posted by kristofeR! at 04/27/2009 @ 1:23pm

88. Ronald Reagan has absolutely NOTHING to do with the current recession.

    Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 12:55pm

    hahahahahahahaha!

    jesus is gonna get jealous...

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 1:27pm

89. Chaoszen, I think you are posscessed of some anger problems from the looks of your posts. Feel free to answer or not answer my posts as you choose. Thats the American way. :)

    Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:28pm

90. OK, lost in the weird, often non-sensical, personal attacks is that fact that removing this funding was a really, really bad idea. Unfortunately, it required forward thinking to support it.

    That is, I am sorry to say, not a Conservative hallmark. From abandoning Afghanistan when our short-term interest faded until Al Queda killed Americans to supporting Saddam because we saw him as the lesser of two evils until he attacked Kuwait (that bastion of democracy and human rights) to removing anti-terrorism as a cabinet-level post pre-9/11 to ignoring all alternative fuel support until we had $4 gas to the continued denial of global-warming as a massive and prevalent threat, the Right refuses to address anything that isn't already too far gone to be helped. At which time it somehow always becomes someone else's fault (that "personal responsibility" thing is really more of a guideline than a rule in the GOP).

    But, that's as far as this goes. That money wouldn't have bought a magic solution that could have been in place today. It would have been nice to see that Congress anticipated a crisis rather than just reacting to one but that's too much to ask.

    Just amazing to me though that Conservatives saw Panama and Grenada as a clear and present danger worthy of millions of US dollars and millions more for a fence to keep Mexicans in Mexico but not a penny on possibly the real threat from south of Texas. But fighting a disease isn't something that makes for good slogans and can't be solved by pointing guns at people with funny names and accents.

    Next thing you know that former state of Texas will be asking for our help with this problem. Oh wait...

    Posted by deaner1971 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:29pm

91. If the mushrooom cloud is the death of hundreds of thousands via flu...

    will the cons back off budget spending to the tune of 3,00,000,000,000?

    How about if Iraqis were the ones facing the pandemic, would they gladly spend freely then?

    ---

    Posted by kristofeR! at 04/27/2009 @ 1:23pm

    So, you are saying that Pharma is down in Mexico PRODUCING flu viruses?

    I guess that is one way to look at it. Another would be to look at how viruses evolve in large factory farms, small rural areas with little hygene and how it is spread via mass movement of people.

    Or not.

    Posted by crabwalk at 04/27/2009 @ 1:32pm

92. Actually, David Vitter of Louisiana was the first to offer an amendment to get rid of monies for pandemics, wildlife and fisheries, and a few other "ridiculous" wastes of money. I'll be calling his office when the first case hits Louisiana.

    Posted by joefan1 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:36pm

93. Feel free to answer or not answer my posts as you choose. Thats the American way. :)

    Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:28pm

    free speech is great!

    'cept no one (who "matters") listens to you.

    at least in china they're all ears.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 1:38pm

94. Our Pigs, Our Food, Our Health

    By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF Published: March 11, 2009 CAMDEN, Ind.

    Dr. Tom Anderson's daughter, Lily, and, wife, Cindi, in Camden, Indiana. Dr. Anderson treated an epidemic of MRSA infections before he died.

    The late Tom Anderson, the family doctor in this little farm town in northwestern Indiana, at first was puzzled, then frightened.

    He began seeing strange rashes on his patients, starting more than a year ago. They began as innocuous bumps -- "pimples from hell," he called them -- and quickly became lesions as big as saucers, fiery red and agonizing to touch.

    They could be anywhere, but were most common on the face, armpits, knees and buttocks. Dr. Anderson took cultures and sent them off to a lab, which reported that they were MRSA, or staph infections that are resistant to antibiotics.

    MRSA (methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus) sometimes arouses terrifying headlines as a "superbug" or "flesh-eating bacteria." The best-known strain is found in hospitals, where it has been seen regularly since the 1990s, but more recently different strains also have been passed among high school and college athletes. The federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reported that by 2005, MRSA was killing more than 18,000 Americans

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 1:42pm

95. OINK!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 1:42pm

96. Why Frosty, I'm hurt and surprised. Hurt by the insult and surprised that you would adopt the mob mentality about deregulation that enables one to blame a dead guy who started successful policies 29 years ago (continued by Clinton)for the current troubles

    Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:47pm

97. blame a dead guy who started successful policies 29 years ago for the current troubles Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 1:47pm

    WARNING: this opinion is not substantiated by evidence.

    Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 1:51pm

98. Her and the GOP were right. It wasn't "stimulus" and should have been included in a more appropriate bill and debated there.

    Posted by SnakeEyes at 04/27/2009 @ 1:52pm

99. "All those little porky things that the House put in, the money for the [National] Mall or the sexually transmitted diseases or the flu pandemic, they"re all out," Schumer (D) said.

    Posted by SnakeEyes at 04/27/2009 @ 1:53pm

100. Read the posts by the pugs. The flu has already taken hold of the pig brain.. This disease is spreading amongst the right quicker than expected!

     Soon, they will all move to the Georigia wilderness and start bending each other over a stump..

     Ned Beatty was a prophet..

     Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 2:14pm

101. This is insane. Talk about something that should be a bipartisan issue.

     I mention this in my blog post: http://bit.ly/11BH1W

     Posted by NatchGreyes at 04/27/2009 @ 2:16pm

102. GENTLEMEN: "CHAOZEN< FROSTY<FICHEYE et al

     The 1980's and the 1990's were productive years. Real estate interest rates, at 14.5% when Reagan took over dropped substantially over those years: Taxes dropped for the first time since...well for the first time. Business expanded. It continued under Clinton, who was smart enough to get out of the way. He was the first guy ever to repair the welfare system, and both men helped re-establish our position in the world. The Internet, the dot.coms, etc etc

     Fact is, deregulation work ok untill people involved started to abuse it. And the regulatory laws have been in place for a long time so before you lambast Wall Street exclusively, ask Barney Frank and Chris Dodd why they wern't doing THEIR jobs right either

     I think all you guys need to stop listening to the "experts" on here and look at some real history. It's not as black&white as guys like Nichols make it.

     Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 2:21pm

103. GENTLEMEN: "CHAOZEN< FROSTY<FICHEYE et al

     The 1980's and the 1990's were productive years. Real estate interest rates, at 14.5% when Reagan took over dropped substantially over those years: Taxes dropped for the first time since...well for the first time. Business expanded. It continued under Clinton, who was smart enough to get out of the way. He was the first guy ever to repair the welfare system, and both men helped re-establish our position in the world. The Internet, the dot.coms, etc etc

     Fact is, deregulation work ok untill people involved started to abuse it. And the regulatory laws have been in place for a long time so before you lambast Wall Street exclusively, ask Barney Frank and Chris Dodd why they wern't doing THEIR jobs right either

     I think all you guys need to stop listening to the "experts" on here and look at some real history. It's not as black&white as guys like Nichols make it.

     Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 2:21pm

104. bubble-lover......

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 2:23pm

105. hairy.william:

     i suggest you talk to mr. h.w. bush about the "magic" of mr. reagan's economics.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 2:25pm

106. Taxes dropped for the first time since...well for the first time.

     complete nonsense.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 2:38pm

107. It's not nonsense Emile. I was working for the Md Cup Corporation in Baltimore when I got my first paycheck under the lowered tax rate. It happened. For all of us.It was real. You may wish it wasn't, but I can't help that.

     Unless you meant my second part about "ever" which was a little sarcasm that I thought an intelligent guy like you would pick up.

     Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 2:50pm

108. sarcasm on blogs is a tricky thing, unless it's ladled on thick, it can easily pass for brainlessness, especially coming from an aparatchik such as you.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 2:56pm

109. Reagan, of course raised taxes eventually, after lowering them. he still left a lot of red ink by the time of his Alzheimer addled exit.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 2:57pm

110. Posted by william.harry13 at 04/27/2009 @ 2:21pm

     "ask Barney Frank and Chris Dodd why they wern't doing THEIR jobs right either"

     Go ahead, but while your at it don't forget to ask wtf the republicans were doing for the first 6 years when they had complete control. Why wern't they doing THEIR jobs right?

     Posted by Extraneous at 04/27/2009 @ 3:01pm

111. Recent numbers I have seen for the mortality rate in Mexico from this virus are pretty disturbing, 149 deaths out of about 2000 likely infections, about 7.5%. Of course these numbers could overstate the actual rate of mortality since people who merely had a runny nose may not actually report their illness to public health officials. Unfortunately with only 4o cases in the US, we do not have a statistically significant sampling to assess the mortality here in the US. We may have indeed lucked out if the strain in the US is a less virulent variant, but there is no way to judge if that is the case at this point. In the absence of data on this bug, I for one would feel more secure knowing that the US had a sufficient supply of antivirals (Tamiflu and Relenza) on hand to insure adequate supply in the event of a pandemic.

     It is, I believe, playing politics for John Nichols to point out that Republicans fought to cut out funds for flu pandemic preparedness, even though he also criticized the Democrats for giving in on this issue. Having said that, I support Nichols' decision to do so. If tables were turned, the Republicans would be blaming the Democrats for a lack of preparedness. I think the Republicans got this one wrong, and should pay the political price.

     Posted by JonathanU at 04/27/2009 @ 3:32pm

112. Reagan: (Howdy Doody with Alzheimers)

     There was a Frontline documentary the other night about Chesapeake Bay and Puget Sound. It was a beautiful (and sad) documentation of environmental disaster in our world caused by Reagan's deregulations.

     While there are those (many) who would deny Reagan's role in creating a financial crisis, it's very hard to deny his complicity in deregulating waste treatment policies in regards to industry. These once thriving bodies of water are now mostly dead zones with only a small chance of recovery. I guess that's the world a lot of the deniers want to live in.

     (Sarcasm disclaimer: What follows is the sarcasm section of my post. For those who do not understand or use sarcasm as a literary device, be warned that thinking must take place in order to understand the inferences).

     Those damn fish! And why would anyone want any of that water to touch their skin? For chrissake, it's the OCEAN! Just stay outta there! That's where you dump stuff you don't know what the hell to do with, so to piss of liberals across the spectrum and to save a few bucks, we spew all that stuff into the sea. It's big. And we send all of our plastics to Hawaii! Now shower up, yo... 24 is on tonight!

     Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 3:37pm

113. Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 12:24pm

     Yup, when the vaccine for this scourge is discovered and disseminated, we will be able to devote the full measure of credit to the scientifically-driven concept of EVOLUTIONARY BIOLOGY that froms the rock-solid foundation of the study of viruses.

     The retard recourse of mindless lemmings, UN-INTELLIGENT DESIGN and CREATIONISM ,will play no part in the discovery process. Period.

     Neverthless, we will give the anti-science bigoted haters and the whacked-out screamers their fair share of the vaccine even though their fucked-up and medieval ideas would have retarded the discovery process in the first place. We can expect no gratitude from these haters and pathetic, loud-mouthed self-pitiers. But we do, afterall, believe in life even if they do not.

     Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 04/27/2009 @ 3:41pm

114. (Tamiflu and Relenza) on hand to insure adequate supply in the event of a pandemic. Posted by JonathanU at 04/27/2009 @ 3:32pm

     Tamiflu and Relenza are not designed to abrogate the effects of a mutated virus.

     Watch as the Flu spreads. There is no vaccine for this.

     You are on your own.. And so are we all..

     Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 3:54pm

115. The best advice is to start taking massive doses of vitamin C. It helps to keep any virus from invading a cell.

     Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 4:01pm

116. Watch as the Flu spreads. There is no vaccine for this. You are on your own.. And so are we all.. Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 3:54pm

     To be totally fair, they are assembling all the components needed to make a vaccine, but making 306,304,331 doses anytime soon is seriously in doubt.

     Conservatives will be happy to know that this disease seems to kill people in the 20 to 40 year old category. This will make the jobless rate go down!! We're saved!

     Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 4:02pm

117. Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 4:02pm

     Anyone want to market a lung pump? "Removes all viscid fluids from the lungs before you drown." "Takes 2 AA Batteries, not supplied.

     ShamSlamLungWow! Only $19.95! Get yours now while supplies last!

     Is Cheney behind this?

     Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 4:12pm

118. Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 3:37pm

     Sorry Fish, but the record is actually quite different.

     Rather than deregulation (which I would support), Reagan signed legislation which strengthened waste treatment requirements.

     "REAGAN SIGNS MEASURE TIGHTENING RULES FOR DISPOSAL OF TOXIC WASTE

     By ROBERT PEAR, SPECIAL TO THE NEW YORK TIMES

     Published: November 10, 1984

     President Reagan today signed a major piece of environmental legislation that tightens Federal standards for the disposal of toxic wastes and extends controls to small companies. Environmentalists said they were pleasantly surprised by the President's action on the bill, which expands the Resource Conservation and Recovery Act of 1976.

     The Resource Conservation and Recovery Act was meant to assure the proper disposal of hazardous waste, so as to prevent a recurrence of incidents such as that at Love Canal in New York State. The bill signed today by Mr. Reagan tightens provisions in the 1976 law that allowed producers of small quantities of hazardous wastes to avoid compliance with the required safeguards. The new provision affects businesses and institutions that generate no more than 2,200 pounds of hazardous waste a year. The bill also restricts the disposal of hazardous wastes in landfills and would halt the recycling of toxic chemicals in such substances as road oils of the kind that spread dioxins in Missouri"

     http://tinyurl.com/dfafvn

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/27/2009 @ 4:20pm

119. I'll have to do further research. That's a pretty old article. It seems like Frontline is usually correct on any claims they make, so I would venture a guess that these restrictions were significantly relaxed at a later date.

     Frontline quote: "Though President Nixon argued against the legislation, remembers William Ruckelshaus, EPA Administrator from 1970-1973, Congress overrode his veto and set in motion a number of efforts to clean up the environment. The Clean Water Act of 1972, for example, set up regulations for waste management and authorized states to set standards for water quality.

     Ruckelshaus recalls banning DDT, and suing cities and targeting "some big visible polluters" (such as U.S. Steel, especially upset at his efforts). While such work was initially fruitful, instituting clear laws, penalties, and inspections in order to reduce pollution levels (especially in the area of sewage treatment) and establish standards for the future, by the 1980s, the Reagan administration set about deregulating industries. In his mission to reduce "government," Reagan "essentially gutted the EPA," appointing people to run it who were, according to J. Charles Fox, EPA Assistant Administrator from 1998-2001, "opposed to the mission of the agency."

     From Wikipedia: It was later discovered that the administration was releasing Superfund grants for cleaning up local toxic waste sites to enhance the election prospects of local officials aligned with the Republican Party.[37] Reagan rarely thought about the environment in political terms, however, and did not fear that his popularity would be damaged by environmental issues.[36]

     We could go on, but I submit that he undid some of his policies after 1984 under pressure from industry.

     Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 4:41pm

120. Is Cheney behind this? Posted by chaoszen at 04/27/2009 @ 4:12pm

     Does he have lungs? Remember what a hard time he had breathing in Star Wars?

     Posted by ficheye at 04/27/2009 @ 4:43pm

121. Everyone knows that the Swine Flu is George Bush's fault.

     Posted by jimmylove at 04/27/2009 @ 5:32pm

122. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A3418-2004Jul21.html

     Anne M. Gorsuch Burford, 62, the Environmental Protection Agency director who resigned under fire in 1983 during a scandal over mismanagement of a $1.6 billion program to clean up hazardous waste dumps.

     A firm believer that the federal government, and specifically the EPA, was too big, too wasteful and too restrictive of business, Ms. Burford cut her agency's budget by 22 percent. She boasted that she reduced the thickness of the book of clean water regulations from six inches to a half-inch.

     Ms. Burford was forced to resign after she was cited for contempt of Congress for refusing to turn over Superfund records, arguing that they were protected by executive privilege. Ms. Burford acted under President Ronald Reagan's orders, with the advice of the Justice Department and against her own recommendation, her colleagues told the press at the time. A few months later, in what one of her aides called a "cold-blooded, treacherous act of political callousness," the Justice Department announced it would no longer represent her because it was involved in investigations into corruption at the EPA.

     More than half of the federal regulations targeted for an early review by the Reagan administration's regulatory reform team were EPA rules. Virtually all of her subordinates at the EPA came from the ranks of the industries they were charged with overseeing.

     Her resignation did not end the political fight. Reagan, seeking to reward a loyalist, appointed her a year later to the chairmanship of the National Advisory Committee on Oceans and the Atmosphere.

     Sure Reagan was quite the 'protector of the environment'...

     ...not!

     Posted by Lillian at 04/27/2009 @ 5:37pm

123. why waste our time?

     reagan was a selfish doofus who doubled the deficit and increased the burrocracy (that's a joke, emile).

     but he did ban offshore drilling....

     and made movies with monkeys, too.

     plus, he created a bubble that farted all over his vice president.

     oh, why bother...

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 6:08pm

124. there is only one number to remember: 21.

     That's the percent of people in the Post/ABC survey who identified themselves as Republicans, down from 25 percent in a late March poll and at the lowest ebb in this poll since the fall of 1983(!). WAPO

     bye, bye, Whigs, er, repugs.

     we wish to shrink the republican party, so we can drown them in the bathtub.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 6:18pm

125. The reason [the Eruo is higher than the dollar] is that the most populace and developed member nations have a smart service net in place to protect their workforce.

     Posted by Milhaus at 04/26/2009 @ 3:56pm

     This may be the most uniformed non-sequitur I've ever read here. Score double point because B_Kool posted about strongly held but uniformed opinions right after.

     The Euro was initial issued at parity with the dollar. For the first several years of its existance the Euro traded significantly below the US dollar. All the while, Europe had the same healthcare system they currently have. (If anything, they've been scaled back slightly.)

     The reason the exchange rate flipped has to do with the structural current account deficit the US runs that has created a mountain of foriegn owened debt during that time.

     I know this because I heard a highly paid economist tell me so.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 6:27pm

126. Damn fools...they never look ahead unless it is beneficial to them. People will die, and the R's don't care.

     Posted by rasputin195 at 04/26/2009 @ 9:45pm

     As an actuary, I can positively guarantee you that people will continue to die, no matter how much money the US government spend.

     We can print a hundred bazillion dollars for every man, woman and child on the planet; mail it to them; tax it back away from them; then split it evenly among all the doctors and nurses in the US and people will still die.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 6:32pm

127. Frankly if you think money is equal to a human life I think you need help.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/27/2009 @ 09:17am

     Well then, My construction buddie can put guard rails along every inch of roadway in the US for $5 - $6 trillion dollars at it will save 3 or 4 lives.

     Is that worth it?

     You better not say "no" because you will be putting a price on human life.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 6:38pm

128. The Spanish flu killed 21,642,274 worldwide and 200,000 in the US alone,

     Posted by macrumpton at 04/27/2009 @ 11:40am

     Your US number is a little light.

     In 1917 there were 115,526 deaths due to Pneumonia and Influenza

     In 1918 there were 464,959 deaths due to Pneumonia and Influenza

     In 1919 there were 185,440 deaths due to Pneumonia and Influenza

     In 1920 there were 178,438 deaths due to Pneumonia and Influenza

     In 1921 there were 86,667 deaths due to Pneumonia and Influenza

     Assuming a run rate of about 100,000, I figure about 500,000 spanish flu deaths in the US over the three-year period. (I am pretty sure this doesn't count deaths of those in Europe to fight WWI.)

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 6:47pm

129. I'm still waiting to see Obey right on anything.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/26/2009 @ 7:36pm

     You did read the article, yes? Obey specifically sai that the outbreak of a pandemic would lead to a downturn in stock values and the market overall.

     It just did.

     Another thing; you explain the conservative standpoint as believing with John Marshall's decision in McCullough v. Maryland. Your quote is taken out of context, since his decision applied to the taxation of federal institutions by state powers, and was therefore a reinforcement of his belief in centralized power - not, as you would seemingly have it, a blanket statement applicable to taxation of the individual by any government whatsoever.

     I'm an independent, but this discussion seems to have an imbalance in the number of misinformed conservative commentators. Especially you.

     Posted by Thomas.Hobbes at 04/27/2009 @ 7:04pm

130. darin,

     boxing with karma is not highly advised.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 7:58pm

131. anti thank you for the wall of talking points and wing-nut website spotlighting of things in a 200 year old context. It can stand on it's own merits.

     Darin face it. Once the euro broke out of it's new currency status and gained market approval it assumed it's place in a higher status than the dollar. I know this will make your 4x4 shed a tear, but it's true.

     Posted by Milhaus at 04/27/2009 @ 8:00pm

132. As usual, the republicans with their democratic friends who bow down to them don't get it. Perhaps the quickly growing flu epidemic starting to sweep our country just might hit their own families. I suppose these folks don't figure that maybe this will get worse and may even kill some americans as it spreads from state to state all across this country. I wonder how they will feel when this happens.

     Posted by teelee86 at 04/27/2009 @ 8:26pm

133. If ignorance is bliss, then Happy's nickname is extremely well-chosen.

     And antisocial's nickname is... well... disturbingly apt.

     Quick, Happy: What happens to an economy, especially a vulnerable one, especially one that's already in decline, especially one you're trying to stimulate, when a public health emergency hits?

     Hmm.... maybe today's headlines would give you a leeeetle clue.

     AP: Swine flu could mean new threat to US economy "WASHINGTON – The U.S. economy, which was showing tentative early signs of a recovery, faces a potentially grave new threat: swine flu. A widespread outbreak could batter the tourism, food and transportation industries in particular, deepening the recession in the U.S. and possibly worldwide. With the U.S. and the global economy already fragile, another severe blow could reverse any progress made in easing the recession."

     From another AP story: "The swine flue gave Wall Street a reason to turn cautious Monday."

     WSJ: Crude Dn On Fear Swine Flu To Hit Demand

     Bloomberg: Oil Declines on Swine Flu Outbreak, Signs Economy Will Shrink

     Reuters: Global stocks, oil fall on swine flu fears

     And THAT, Happy and antisocial, is why pandemic preparedness belonged in the stimulus bill.

     Oddly enough, that's exactly what Nichols reported.

     To recap: Public health emergencies pose significant risks to economic recovery. Therefore, pandemic preparedness spending is DOUBLY appropriate in a stimulus package -- both for the stimulus effect of the spending, and for the benefit of insuring against the economic damage from a public health emergency.

     So that's why ignoramuses like Happy and antisocial are dead wrong and can only repeat discredited talking points. But next time they might want to actually read an article before commenting on it.

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:00pm

134. And... wow. Just wow. Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll thinks that every reported case of this flu "has made a full recovery." Really? Does that include the approximately 150 deaths so far from the virus? Is that why the WHO has just raised the pandemic alert level to Phase 4? (Oh right, I forgot, the WHO is just another UN world government socialist plot.) Is that why Mexico City has been shut down?

     And just as an aside, Darin the Troll is, of course, dead wrong that torture "PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives." Dozens of interrogators from all branches of the government are already on record refuting that particular lie. And Cheney's lackeys are reduced to further lies in an attempt to advance that meme -- witness Thiessen's lie that the LA Library Tower bombing was "foiled" by the torture of KSM and possibly Abu Zubayda. Only one small problem -- both KSM and Abu Zubayda were captured AFTER the LA tower plot was foiled, according to the Bush Administration's own fact sheets. Oops.

     Fact-challenged and logic-challenged, as usual.

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:01pm

135. "So Bushitler and his evil minions thwarted efforts at pandemic preparedness? Oh really?

     Check out this article from November 2005 titled "Bush unveils $7.1 billion plan to prepare for flu pandemic" -http://www.cnn.com/2005/HEALTH/conditions/11/01/us.flu.plan/

     Posted by Paul955 at 04/27/2009 @ 12:20pm"

     Actually, the point is that, thanks to "moderates" like Collins, Snowe and Spector, together with puppetmasters like Rove, we are now behind even where we were under Boosh in 2005. And that takes come doing. Congratulations, Rove and GOP "moderates".

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:08pm

136. interesting letters from doctors in la ciudad de méxico found here:

     http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/talking_point/8018428.stm

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/27/2009 @ 10:25pm

137. Regardless of what some Republicans may or may not have wanted--they are no longer governing after all--many people are asking why the Obama administration has not taken the rational, scientifically prudent step of introducing mandatory testing of all people who enter the US from Mexico, that is, of Mexicans and Americans and all others? Note that Japan, South Korea, Russia, as well as many EU nations have already done exactly that. They are acting in the best interests of their own populations and ultimately of the world population by taking reasonable steps against further spread of the Mexican swine flu.

     Why won't the Obama administration even conduct mandatory testing like most other scientifically advanced nations are doing? Why won't the administration consider what is likely an even more crucial step--closing the Mexican border in both directions?

     Posted by feinfein at 04/27/2009 @ 11:17pm

138. If that was an Al-Qaida cell that killed 80 people in Mexico, every GOP politician, talking head and garden variety Kool-Aid-mutant would be howling about it.

     The flu doesn't suit their agenda so it is minimized or dismissed.

     The same goes for all of the massacres. We have a real problem here. We've got citizens determined to turn their fellow citizens into swiss cheese and hardly anything is being said about it.

     How many mass gun killings in the past few years? Hell, go back 15 years, 'cause it's been going on since then.

     Posted by koroviev at 04/27/2009 @ 11:41pm

139. If that was an Al-Qaida cell that killed 80 people in Mexico, every GOP politician, talking head and garden variety Kool-Aid-mutant would be howling about it.

     The flu doesn't suit their agenda so it is minimized or dismissed.

     Posted by koroviev at 04/27/2009 @ 11:41pm

     well,

     smithfield foods gives more campaign contributions than does al qaeda.

     oops,

     cat's out the bag.......

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:16am

140. The same goes for all of the massacres. We have a real problem here. We've got citizens determined to turn their fellow citizens into swiss cheese and hardly anything is being said about it.

     How many mass gun killings in the past few years? Hell, go back 15 years, 'cause it's been going on since then.

     Posted by koroviev at 04/27/2009 @ 11:41pm

     i don't know how many times i've gone on about this nihilistic jihad.

     i guess people get tired of hearing the same old glockandspiel.

     (glock and spiel... to cleave or not to cleave)

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:19am

141. Sure Reagan was quite the 'protector of the environment'... ...not! Posted by Lillian at 04/27/2009 @ 5:37pm

     Thank you Lillian for adding teeth to my assertions about Reagan's overall record on environmental deregulation.

     There's an article circa 1984 (!) that is fairly misleading.

     Oddly, it comes up at the top of the page when doing a google search, even though there are a lot of other articles that go the other direction. If I was a conspiracy nut I'd say the article's position in ranking seems a little manipulated since other information you can find seems to refute its content.

     Posted by ficheye at 04/28/2009 @ 01:37am

142. smithfield foods gives more campaign contributions than does al qaeda.

     oops,

     cat's out the bag.......

     Posted by frosty zoom

     Just think of the bright side....

     All of those jobs coming back to the U.S. after Mexico shuts down the intensive pig farms....

     Now accepting applications for experienced swineherds....

     On the downside...If housing values seem bad now, just wait 'til the pig-poop lagoon opens up across the street.

     Posted by koroviev at 04/28/2009 @ 04:23am

143. Why won't the Obama administration even conduct mandatory testing like most other scientifically advanced nations are doing?Posted by feinfein at 04/27/2009 @ 11:17pm

     Maybe because of the "Obama Deception"?

     Here is an article from New World Liberty. A paragon of truth!

     http://www.prisonplanet.com/swine-flu-attack-likely-a-beta-test.html

     Posted by chaoszen at 04/28/2009 @ 05:00am

144. And... wow. Just wow. Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll thinks that every reported case of this flu "has made a full recovery." Really? Does that include the approximately 150 deaths so far from the virus?

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:01pm

     Yes, forgive me for not typing every word.

     At issue is $900 million (US dollars) of US spending for the US budget by the US Congress that was signed by the US Presdent raised by taxing US taxpayers for the benfit of US citizens.

     I know there have been 150 deaths in Mexico, but how would our $900 Million US dollars have affected non-US citizens in a non-US country?

     In the US there have been 50 reported cases of US citizens bein infected.

     One has required hospitalization, and that person has made a full recovery.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/28/2009 @ 06:28am

145. And just as an aside, Darin the Troll is, of course, dead wrong that torture "PROBABLY would have saved thousands of lives."

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:01pm

     Many years ago, my middle-schooler was in second grade and they played a game called "Fact or Opinion?"

     Let's see if you can guess whether your statement regarding my opinion is a fact or an opinion.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/28/2009 @ 06:31am

146. Darin face it. Once the euro broke out of it's new currency status and gained market approval it assumed it's place in a higher status than the dollar. I know this will make your 4x4 shed a tear, but it's true.

     Posted by Milhaus at 04/27/2009 @ 8:00pm

     I wasn't aguing that the Euro is higher, I was pointing out that you can't say it is higher BECAUSE...

     and then pick one random thing.

     The Euro is higher because they speak different languages in the Eurozone.

     The Eruo is higher because the Eurozone is closer to the international time line.

     The Eruo is higher because the US has a black for Presdient and all Eurozone contries are lea by whites. (Mask will want to save this one as proof that I am a racist even though the whole point is to expose this type of non-sequitur as preposterous.)

     I think you get the point. A more collectivist approach to healthcare is not "the reason" the Euro is higher.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/28/2009 @ 06:41am

147. Overreaching on this one. Better to identify the real things to be enraged about than pick a nothing story like this one and try to draw a larger picture. Bad Gotcha! moment for you.

     Posted by ednormanj at 04/28/2009 @ 07:06am

148. Trust for America's Health Applauds U.S. Response to Swine Flu Trust for America's Health (TFAH) today commended the Administration for its fast and effective response to the swine flu outbreak.

     In order to continue to respond to this swine flu outbreak and to continue and improve preparations and the capacity to respond to other potential pandemic outbreaks, such as the H5N1 "bird flu," TFAH recommends:

     -- Completing the funding to implement the National Strategy for Pandemic Influenza. Former President Bush originally requested $7.1 billion to carry out research and development for vaccinations, pharmaceuticals, and medical devices needed to respond to a pandemic. $870 million of this has never been funded. This funding was originally included in both the FY 2008 budget and proposed 2009 stimulus bill, but was removed each time before the bills' final passage. -- With more than $1 billion of HHS funding, six companies are in various stages of implementing commercial-scale production of cell-based methods and/or expanding their vaccine capacity using eggs. By 2011, U.S. based vaccine production capacity is expected to be at a point in which it can generate enough pandemic influenza vaccine for every American within six months of the time that the pandemic virus is identified, according to the most recent Pandemic Planning Update from HHS. However, the U.S. will not reach that capacity without completion of the initial investment.

     $870 million left of $7.1 billion that BUSH requested.

     Why doth the left rage!

     Posted by interventor at 04/28/2009 @ 08:21am

149. Thanks for this observation. It underlies my long held assertion that partsian politics is inherently evil. Any party that tries to score political points at the expense of the public is just toxic.

     Posted by starfire at 04/28/2009 @ 08:29am

150. Once the euro broke out of it's new currency status and gained market approval it assumed it's place in a higher status than the dollar.

     in both cases it's its.

     no charge.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 08:45am

151. Why won't the administration consider what is likely an even more crucial step--closing the Mexican border in both directions? Posted by feinfein at 04/27/2009 @ 11:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     this is just absurd.try using a howitzer to kill a fly.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 08:49am

152. To recap: Public health emergencies pose significant risks to economic recovery. Therefore, pandemic preparedness spending is DOUBLY appropriate in a stimulus package -- both for the stimulus effect of the spending, and for the benefit of insuring against the economic damage from a public health emergency.

     So that's why ignoramuses like Happy and antisocial are dead wrong and can only repeat discredited talking points. But next time they might want to actually read an article before commenting on it.

     Posted by siegeljd at 04/27/2009 @ 10:00pm

     Using this logic, the govt needs to put aside trillions of dollars for every contingency that could affect the market. Let's have that debate.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 08:55am

153. bye, bye, Whigs, er, repugs.

     we wish to shrink the republican party, so we can drown them in the bathtub.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/27/2009 @ 6:18pm

     Yes, Emile, we know that like most radical leftists, you desire to have the radical left be the only voice in the US. Like most marxist totalitarians, you hate our constitutional republic and the idea of debating ideas and political philosophy. But at least you are more open about it than most of your fellow leftist bloggers.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 08:58am

154. They had every chance to be a sane voice and participate in the Republic, but they squandered it by claiming executive privilege, barring people from the press corps, and rounding up anyone who dared to form an opinion contrary to their own (RNC convention== Stalin tactics).

     To claim that the disappearance of your kind is the fault of others is truly indicative of the sad state of affairs in the conservative camp.

     It's not us. It's you.

     Posted by snowball666 at 04/28/2009 @ 09

     You have misconstrued the context of my posting. I fully acknowledge that Republicans by failing to adhere to conservative principles deserved to lose the last two elections.

     I am discussing Emile's desire (and he's joined by others here) to see the Republican party disappear, leaving us with a one party system. He has made it clear during the past 4-5 years of posting here that he is intolerant of opposing beliefs and opinions.

     As to the convention, the DNC put in far more draconian security steps than did the RNC. I noted that last year when Free Speech TV and Indymedia announced that the Dems were keeping protestors further back from their conventions than were the Republicans.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 09:58am

155. Which contingencies do you believe we can save money on by being less prepared, Anti?

     Posted by snowball666 at 04/28/2009 @ 09:34am

     Your question is framed incorrectly. If you use that assumption, which contingency should you not fund?

     And using this current issue with the flu, your contingency funds are still meaningless. There is no flu vaccine even developed for this particular flu and none is expected for approx 6 months.

     I've responded to you before that I am not in favor of extraordinary health measures. I've never had nor ever will have a flu shot.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 10:02am

156. Posted by snowball666 at 04/28/2009 @ 10:09am

     But that just gets us back again to my central points.

     1. There is no authority for the Fed to be involved in the constitution. Not unless you want to have them seal the borders and stop flights from Mexico (or any other country in a similar situation). Then you would have a proper role for the Fed.

     2. You still haven't defined which contingencies you wouldn't fund. So if you take your logic, you are faced with trillions in spending on "possible" issues, and a massive govt increase to support the planning. And even with that, as with this current flu, all you can possibly do is go into limited responses.

     In order to support your position, we would add probably another 30-50% to our Federal budget. So apart from constitutional issues, where does the money come from?

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 10:22am

157. Some additional perspective.

     According to the CDC, approx 36,000 people die each year from the flu.

     Approx 900,000 die each year from heart disease.

     there are no reported deaths in the US from this current flu strain and less than 200 reported with this flu.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 10:30am

158. Using this logic, the govt needs to put aside trillions of dollars for every contingency that could affect the market. Let's have that debate.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 08:55am

     can you punch someone in the face as they slide into second base?

     perhaps rules might save the need to have SO much set aside for a rainy day.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 10:33am

159. hmmm,

     financial contingencies that is.

     a stronger, smaller "market" is less likely to keel over in a nasty gale.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 10:34am

160. the entire homeland security thing is preparing for a contingency, as is the entire military establishment.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 10:35am

161. sars was pretty icky.

     just down the road, in fact...

     not now.

     i think larry wants some RAPTURE!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 10:42am

162. How many Repug protesters spent the night in a Colorado jail cell?

     Posted by snowball666 at 04/28/2009 @ 10:45am

     It wasn't Republican protesters. At both conventions it was the anarchists, the communists, and the usual far left radicals.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 11:08am

163. here Snow

     "AMY GOODMAN: The 2008 Democratic National Convention kicked off Monday at the Pepsi Center here in Denver. Nearly a hundred people were arrested in a protest about a mile from the convention site. Police fired tear gas and pepper bullets at demonstrators. Police say they were trying to break up a traffic disruption, but protesters say the officers confronted them unprovoked.

     EILEEN CLANCY: Well, what we saw last night was that people had planned to be out in the streets demonstrating, and the police obviously were aware it, because they were out in huge numbers. Some people have told me they think that the police outnumbered the demonstrators as much as two-to-one or more.

     The police, in the last couple of days in Denver, have been carrying extraordinary array of armaments. The federal government gave Denver $50 million for security, and the police are wearing all spanking new uniforms and riot gear and carrying grenade launchers for teargas and things like that.

     But one of the things we've seen that's really troubling is that, well, last night, I have never seen so many police officers with so little identification. We have provided photographs of police officers not wearing appropriate identification and nameplates to the ACLU and the People's Law Project here in Denver, and they are doing an investigation of it.

     I even saw, I mean, police officers with--bicycle police officers with nunchucks, which is a lethal martial arts weapon, and they had them, and they were, you know, in their hands and ready to go last night.

     One of the people from Rochester Indymedia told me that he saw essentially sort of a plume of smoke over the demonstrators that were boxed in by the police, so they were trapped. They were not allowed to leave.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 11:17am

164. They were not given a dispersal order. One of our camera people spoke to a police officer, asked what type of gas, and they were told it was CS gas. This is the kind of thing--it's quite dangerous, of course, to use on, you know, just the random members of the public. So it's--there were ninety-one arrests at that location.

     What we had seen for the prior couple of days is very few arrests but a tremendous amount of harassment: vehicles being stopped; identification being requested; searches being done on vehicles and people without consent; people thrown down on the ground in handcuffs, held for awhile and then let go.

     http://tinyurl.com/6obxt8

     So, you still think it was just Republicans? And both cities have Democrat mayors. Were they in cahoots with conservatives?

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 11:20am

165. not even triple smoked bacon?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 11:27am

166. crispy.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 12:17pm

167. Posted by snowball666 at 04/28/2009 @ 12:59pm

     Great-but back again to the point. It's not that I'm saying that Republicans are in a downturn because of attempts to silence us. I don't believe that.

     My point with Emile is that leftists like himself do not want alternative voices to his view heard. He and some others on the left are quite clear about that. that doesn't mean that everyone on the left feels that way, but many do.

     I have never voiced any desire to see alternative views silenced. I believe in debate as a key to liberty, and my presence here is a testament to that fact. But more open liberals like yourself are not the total view of the left when it comes to real democratic debate.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 1:34pm

168. ANY ONE WHO DEFENDS ROVE KNOWING HIS HISTORY IS TRULY A SORRY INDIVIDUAL AND GOD IS WATCHING YOU. SOMEONE WROTE THAT CONGRESS DOES NOT HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO FUND FLU PREVENTION, WHAT CONSTITUTION DO THEY READ, CONGRESS HAS THE POWER FO THE PURSE, THEY ARE ELECTED TO DECIDE WHERE THE MONEY GOES, WHY DOES IGNORANCE SPREAD SO EASILY NOW A DAYS.

     Posted by MJTAYLOR22 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:55pm

169. Posted by MJTAYLOR22 at 04/28/2009 @ 1:55pm

     Yelling won't substitute for your ignorance of the constitution as one of enumerated powers.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 2:03pm

170. In the interest of fairness (which of course at least 70% of the readers here are pointedly against) someone should peruse this article:

     http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124087436467761251.html

     The obvious fact is, even $100 Billion, spent TODAY would mean absolutely NOTHING to THIS pandemic, as any educated person should understand. However, the rest of you are welcome to your comments and a continuation of your ignorance.

     Posted by a_sudonim at 04/28/2009 @ 2:13pm

171. My point with Emile is that leftists like himself do not want alternative voices to his view heard.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 1:34pm

     shut up.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 2:19pm

172. shut up.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 2:19pm

     Didn't mean to leave you out Frosty. yes, you are just as exclusionary as Emile.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 2:34pm

173. Posted by a_sudonim at 04/28/2009 @ 2:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     you're wowing us with your great personal charm.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 4:28pm

174. G-No-P's:

     1. During Dem & Repub Convention, Religous crazy repubs told his entire congregation to pray for rain on the dems conv. but instead they got sunshine & a hurricane hit during the repub conven.

     2. New fresh hope for GOP Bobby Jindal laughed at the notion of Volcano prevention being a part of the bill. Biggest Volcano disaster happened only weeks later.

     3. The party of NO (GOPs) laughed at the stimulus money to be used for Preparedness for disease and they all voted NO. 2 months ago, and now we have the deadly swine flu. (for all you who say "oh that 900 million wouldn't save us now) remember this which I heard from a blogger of HP: "You don't wait until you smell smoke to start shopping for a fire truck" I thought that was genious.

     Repubs are a dying breed and their only hope is that the REAL Repubs take bake their party and get rid of the slim.

     Posted by sissy2004 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:32pm

175. Repubs are a dying breed and their only hope is that the REAL Repubs take bake their party and get rid of the slim. Posted by sissy2004 at 04/28/2009 @ 4:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     right, too many bake gets rid of the slim.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/28/2009 @ 6:09pm

176. Well then, My construction buddie can put guard rails along every inch of roadway in the US for $5 - $6 trillion dollars at it will save 3 or 4 lives.

     Is that worth it?

     You better not say "no" because you will be putting a price on human life.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/27/2009 @ 6:38pm

     Yes it is.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/28/2009 @ 9:10pm

177. It won't just save 3 or 4 lives that would save hundreds.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/28/2009 @ 9:10pm

178. Probably thousands.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/28/2009 @ 9:11pm

179. shut up.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 2:19pm

     Didn't mean to leave you out Frosty. yes, you are just as exclusionary as Emile.

     Posted by antisocialist at 04/28/2009 @ 2:34pm

     calm down, larry.

     it was a joke.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/28/2009 @ 10:04pm

180. Anti, you are truly in a mood flux. Sometimes, even though you are in a different spectrum of thinking than me, you are more down to earth (!?) in your responses. And if you told us that you are a pastor it is your job... to lead the way as far as being understanding is concerned.

     But you are being unnecessarily mean these days. And I don't think anyone here, myself anyway, wants to constrict anyones right to express themselves, no matter what. You stated that before.

     This is just my opinion, of course. Sometimes I find your posts interesting, even though I may not agree. So kindly try to share some brotherly love that should be in abundance in this world. I'm not a big adherent to biblical ideology in the western sense, but almost all spiritual trains of thought seem to share this commonality. Love your enemies... didn't Jesus say that?

     Posted by ficheye at 04/29/2009 @ 02:02am

181. As much as I want to get mad at Republicans, this particular charge is unfair and politically motivated.

     I can't believe I'm defending Senator Collins, but her objection was that the spending to pandemic flu was not an economic stimulus and belonged elsewhere in the budget. You may disagree, but we must not assert that Senator Collins opposed pandemic flu preparedness or we will lose all credibility - something that we liberals are quite good at, unfortunately.

     Posted by tgrugle at 05/02/2009 @ 09:09am