A Win for Sean Penn

As was only appropriate considering the political content of the film "Milk," this writer was campaigning for Sean Penn in the Oscar race.

Penn won.

And the actor pulled no punches in accepting the Academy Award.

"You commie, homo-loving, sons of guns," the outspoken actor, who has traveled to Hugo Chavez's Venezuela, pre-war Iraq and post-flood New Orleans to challenge conventional wisdom and the compromises of conventional politics, declared as he accepted the honor. "I did not expect this and... I know how hard I make it to appreciate me."

But Penn's primary message was an in-their-faces challenge to Californians who last fall rejected the granting of marriage rights to same-sex couples.

"Milk" came out just after the vote on the referendum.

"I think it is a good time for those who voted for the ban against gay marriage to sit and reflect and anticipate their great shame and the shame in their grandchildren's eyes if they continue that way," announced Penn.

"We've got to have equal rights for everyone."

************************************************************ BELOW READERS WILL FIND THE BEAT'S ARGUMENT FOR HONORING PENN... ************************************************************

Those of us who write about politics as anything more than sport have waited a long time for a popular film to portray American electoral politics as it is lived by those candidates and campaigners who take the endeavor seriously. Unfortunately, all we got in the 1990s and the first years of the 21st century was the buffoonery of Primary Colors and the even more disappointing variations of various and sundry films about accidental presidents.

Not since Robert Redford took his turn as The Candidate has an actor come close to offering a convincing portrayal of the experience of a contender for public office -- and the subtleties of an endeavor that, for the best candidates, is always about a lot more than winning.

And Redford hung up his campaign poster 35 years ago.

So when Sean Penn brought Harvey Milk back to life, not just as the brilliant man that the San Francisco gay activist was but as the brilliant campaigner, it was something worth celebrating.

Milk was not the first gay or lesbian elected official in the United States. Elaine Noble, an out lesbian, was elected to the Massachusetts legislature three years before Milk won his seat on the San Francisco Board of Supervisors in 1977. But Milk's campaigns, especially his initial unsuccessful runs for supervisor and state Assembly, were breakthrough runs that opened a new front in the fight for LGBT rights -- as well as a new politics of coalitions so broad they would eventually be described as "the rainbow."

Sean Penn, one of the most politically-engaged actors working in America today (even as the final touches were being put on Milk, he joined forums sponsored by The Nation and Progressive Democrats of America at last summer's Democratic National Convention in Denver), understood the demands that went with playing a unique and uniquely-significant political pioneer. Much has been made of the fact that Penn so ably and lovingly portrayed a gay man, but it is equally remarkable that he so accurately and honestly portrayed a frustrated and ultimately successful candidate for local elected office.

Penn's portrayal will inspire others to seek office as Milk did -- without apology or compromise, with vision and radical faith and, above all, with a willingness to turn defeat into victory.

For that, Sean Penn gets this political writer's vote for an Oscar.

Comments (244)

1. Sean Penn is a great actor but a lousy American. In past generations he would have been shunned as a traitor to his country and his people. As he celebrates the democracy of Castro and Chavez he leaves the rest of America puzzled as to why the media continues to publish his national slander or that Hollywood reveres him. We wonder if he has no shame.

   As far as the Milk flick, 90% of America will never see it and will not wish to, so, Milk will win an Oscar or Penn will. He lives in the land of hypocrascy,off shore accounts, and unrealistic limosine liberals who just know how the world should work if only we had more Oenns and ALGORES .......yikes.

   The rest of us just roll our eyes and wonder when Penn will visit AQ.

   As a movie goer I find Penn an excellent actor, as an American I find him disgusting.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 10:53am

2. ...should read , Penn and ALGORES...

   Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 10:57am

3. I hear that Penn is working on a project that will bring the lighthearted side of Pol Pot to the screen. The premise is that Pot was misunderstood, and was really a deeply caring activist for human rights.

   Posted by sntauri at 02/22/2009 @ 11:28am

4. Sean Penn is a great actor and a distinguished American. His pursuit of truth in Katrina and Iraq, while other 'actors' did not, at the risk of his career, should garnish him votes, thought the Milk portrayal stands on its own merit.

   Good article Nichols. I'd vote for Penn as a politician in a minute. Compared to McCain, Penn is a real hero.

   Posted by LarryB at 02/22/2009 @ 12:24pm

5. Larry,

   Related to Curly and Moe I see.

   Penn and McCain. One supports his country willing to risk body and soul and the other plays fictional characters outside of all reality..... And then celebrates with murderers, tyrannts and enemys of the very freedoms he abuses.

   You are sick by any measure. Your parents and family must be very proud of you.

   So, you are part of the problem. Anyone considering Penn as a bigger hero than one who has suffered for his country, no matter what political beliefs ( ie. McCain) has,....

   I stand corrected, you are well beyond help. You are very sick.

   Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 12:48pm

6. oh, look, maasch is looking for a fight this sunday morning.....shocker

   Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 12:51pm

7. Sean Penn is a good actor. I can't elevate him to great, but he is good. The issue I have is people giving his opinions outside of his sphere competence more weight based simply on name recognition. There is not an actor with whom I agree or disagree, no matter what the subject, to who's opinion I would give more credence to than a high school professor teaching that same subject.

   After all, we're talking Jeff Spicoli here.

   Posted by Incoming at 02/22/2009 @ 1:06pm

8. oh, look, maasch is looking for a fight this sunday morning.....shocker

   Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 12:51pm

   No fights here..nothing to be gained. This site is pure entertainment and fighting is something one does in order to protect, gain or defeat a foe...

   this site and political crowd here is fringe and all know it...one never battles with the fringe, just plays with it...

   and the ideas here are as old as dirt and history is rife with the failed carnage and dead bodies of socialism and its victims...just look out the window...look at Cuba, other than the weather, socialism has kept those people in grand style in the 21st century complete with rice cookers, and electricity every other day whether they need it or not..PLUS..free health care and Canadian toursits, so..

   Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 1:31pm

9. "oh, look, maasch is looking for a fight this sunday morning.....shocker"

   Yeah, ironic isn't it? After all of the shit he's posted on these blogs he has the nerve to engage in an ad hominem attack on someone; relating him to one of the 3 Stooges, calling him sick and beyond help.

   Or was his outrage fake? Projection maybe?

   Posted by BlackFrancis at 02/22/2009 @ 1:32pm

10. oh, look, maasch is looking for a fight this sunday morning.....shocker

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 12:51pm

    lol.

    hey john,

    cuba has better medical care than the u.s.

    how's life in newnew mexico?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 1:35pm

11. hey john,

    i know this is asking too much,

    but

    take a moment to compare haiti

    and

    cuba.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 1:51pm

12. "On June 10, 2005, Penn made a visit to Iran. Acting as a journalist on an assignment for the San Francisco Chronicle, he attended a Friday prayer at Tehran University.[16] Later in 2005, Penn appeared at the ACLU of Northern California's annual Bill of Rights Day Celebration to present Sister Helen Prejean with the Chief Justice Earl Warren Civil Liberties Award for her work opposing the death penalty."

    IT'S VOODOO!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 1:56pm

13. A Vote for Sean Penn....as the ugliest Hollywood big-name AND the stupidest based on his Baghdad visit on the eve of Shock and Awe!

    Posted by Happy at 02/22/2009 @ 2:07pm

14. It's been a fairly long while since I put digits to keyboard here at The Nation, so, firstly I recognize the almost forgotten but still too familiar poisonous projections of maasch/yourjomamma. I warned him about the ad hominem tack and will likely ignore him soon. So be it.

    Secondly, but most importantly, I remember viewing the documentary "The Life and Times of Harvey Milk" decades ago at the Hippodrome Theater in Gainesville, Florida, and I'm glad Sean Penn, et al, have created another and, likely greater testament to his memorable legacy of positive progressivism. I'll view the movie on Netflix when able.

    Posted by lewwelge at 02/22/2009 @ 3:04pm

15. yourjomomma is the 'fringe' here. I'm sure he undoubtedly finds a traitor like Ollie North heroic.

    Posted by erazma at 02/22/2009 @ 3:15pm

16. Sean Penn "Actorvist" is his fathers son of that there is no doubt. But, then not everyone can say their father was a devout follower who idolized Stalin! He is a credit to his genelogy and an exemplary example of the abnormal realm of behavioral psychology. No wonder he is acclaimed and embraced by leftist regressives!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 3:30pm

17. Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 10:53am

    Great post JM. No surprise that the leftists here pour on the praise for an actor who loves marxism more than America and who is being idolized for portraying a sexual pervert.

    Penn will probably get the Oscar since Hollywood loves to give the "finger" to most Americans.

    I have refused to watch anything by Penn since he went to Iraq prior to the war. The same goes for Danny Glover, Susan Sarandon, Belafonte, and Ed Asner (who endorsed communism and is a supporter of ANSWER).

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

18. Here's my picks for the big ones:

    Best Picture: Slumdog Millionaire; Best Actor: Mickey Rourke (The Wrestler and he won the Golden Globe) or Frank Langella (Frost-Nixon); Best Actress: Meryl Streep (Doubt) or Kate Winslet (Reader); Best Supporting Actress: Marisa Tomei (The Wrestler) or Amy Adams (Doubt); Best Supporting Actor: Phillip Seymor Hoffman (Doubt) or Health Ledger (Batman); Best Director: Danny Boyle (Slumdog Millionaire)

    It's a slumdog nite folks.

    Posted by ACook at 02/22/2009 @ 4:00pm

19. I see how our neocon friends here easily get WRAPPED AROUND THE AXLE re the political views and status of a Hollywood type.

    Methinks they protest a little too much, unless, somehow, IT MATTERS to them!

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 02/22/2009 @ 4:20pm

20. It's a slumdog nite folks.

    Posted by ACook at 02/22/2009 @ 4:00pm

    I hope so. My wife and I saw it recently and it deserves to win. The children are incredible.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 4:31pm

21. This comment is mainly directed to Yourjomamma.

    I find it strange that you would applaud John McCain's endeavours in Vietnam. You say that John McCain "fought for his country". This is utter nonsense. John McCain participated in the crime of genocide perpetrated by several US governments against the people of Vietnam. He's a criminal rather than a hero. What the US did in Vietnam to the Vietnamese people is no less horrendous than what the Nazis did to the Jews in Europe.

    The same goes for Cuba. Castro and Ernesto "Che" Guevara ended the bloody dictatorship of Batista, who, by the way, was supported by the CIA and the US government. Batista's regime mostly benefited a small elite in Cuba, including rich americans, among them the American mafia.

    After Castro came to power, all children were given universal access to healthcare and education for example. In the US there are poor people who don't have access to healthcare, maybe even education. No wonder that there are Americans who still think that the sun revolves around the earth or that the universe is only 10,000 years old. I bet the Cubans are better versed in these scientific subjects and know for example that the earth revolves around the sun, that the universe is about 13.6 billion years old, and that the modern human being, among other species on earth, is the result of a process called evolution.

    I think that Sean Penn is a fine human being for having the courage to criticize his own government for breaking against the rules of democracy and the rule of law, and holding it up to the same standards that it purports to hold other countries to. He is a true patriot just like e.g. Noam Chomsky and William Blum.

    Posted by TheFinn at 02/22/2009 @ 4:44pm

22. hey john,

    i know this is asking too much,

    but

    take a moment to compare haiti

    and

    cuba.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 1:51pm

    As far as Cuba and US health care...If I am really sick or need surgury..I will take my chances with a US trained DR..

    They are both a lost cause for now. Cuba has a chance when Castro finaly assumes Carribean temperature..and the Cuban Americans return with their evil dollars and bring Cuba up to modern standards..and give the Cubans a chance of haviung a choice..of being a slow move Carribean paradise that the American left dreams the world should be...or be given a chance for their people to chose what they want to do...

    so far they seem to be voting with their feel, er, rafts..as the Pennd of the world fly in in luxury..

    I know this is asking too much,..

    and I am not sure what can be done with Haiti...seems nothing works that has been tried...may be a contest...we will compare Cuba after the Cuban Americans and the local Cubans begin to change their Island...and Frosty, Sean Penns, Darlaloons and other "mainstreamers" in the progressive wing can do the same with Haiti...lets see what lasts.

    1 caveat...no US aid directly...just use what resources the Cubans, Hatians here have to bring with them..cash, engineers, teachers... or what ever...check their progress every 1 year for 10 years...

    any bets who raises living standards faster for the local people?

    We will even hamper, er,"help" the Cubans and let them have a few 100 Frostys thrown into the Cuban "helpers" just to slow them down..let the 100 or so Frostys provide economic advice and guidence based on their personal experience in the business, work a day and economic world that they bring to the table.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 4:55pm

23. yourjomomma is the 'fringe' here. I'm sure he undoubtedly finds a traitor like Ollie North heroic.

    Posted by erazma at 02/22/2009 @ 3:15pm

    You bet I am on the fringe here at the Nation site...everyone here is..this place is so far left it is not possible to see the right...

    It is entertainment.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 4:58pm

24. I'm sure he undoubtedly finds a traitor like Ollie North heroic.

    Posted by erazma at 02/22/2009 @ 3:15pm |

    Yup, and when times get tough and I need some real help and strength...

    If need be...I would pray I am in a "fox hole or trench" with the likes of Ollie or McCain.....

    and I pray you are NOT in the same predicament and you find yourself in the trench with Sean Penn and Michael Moore....

    any bets on who would come out alive?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:01pm

25. Posted by lewwelge at 02/22/2009 @ 3:04pm

    Slewwlge,

    Ignore away...I defend your right to do so and your should defend my right to read Larryb and be outraged and sickened..as anyone should be...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:06pm

26. I have refused to watch anything by Penn since he went to Iraq prior to the war.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

    but you watched rummy's productions and he visited iraq prior to the war, too.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:11pm

27. I have refused to watch anything by Penn since he went to Iraq prior to the war.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

    i bet you still watch reagan's "movies" even after he sold weapons

    (i wonder if he sold any larryclusterbombs -- you'll say he didn't, but i bet you're wrong)

    to the MULLAHS OF IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:13pm

28. Finn,

    "After Castro came to power, all children were given universal access to healthcare and education for example. In the US there are poor people who don't have access to healthcare, maybe even education. "

    No one is denied health care in the US...

    I agree with you regarding denied education in the US if they went to public school.

    Wow...how deprived were you when you grew up? Where did you grow up?..

    Jesus, Mary, and Joseph...you are the guy all these govt programs were designed for I guess...my sympathy...

    good luck...

    Finn...doesn't that mean a "Fiver" or a $ 5.00 bill?

    I will give you one next time I see on the exit ramp with the card board cut out sign and the puppy...

    My God man..you must have grown up rough...ever read a book named "It"..any relation?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:14pm

29. for portraying a sexual pervert.

    Projected by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:14pm

30. SEAN PENN IS A PANSY!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:15pm

31. The same goes for Danny Glover, Susan Sarandon, Belafonte, and Ed Asner (who endorsed communism and is a supporter of ANSWER).

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

    my mom had a root canal done in cuba.

    do you boycott her teeth?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:17pm

32. We will even hamper, er,"help" the Cubans and let them have a few 100 Frostys thrown into the Cuban "helpers" just to slow them down..let the 100 or so Frostys provide economic advice and guidence based on their personal experience in the business, work a day and economic world that they bring to the table.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 4:55pm

    have you endeavoured to write something intelligible?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:21pm

33. I think we should trade with Cuba...flood the place in 1 year with all the things thast make life easier and convient ....make them a deal...the Cubans could have all the imports free for 1 year in exchange for Castros hide..and his brothers...

    See what happens..:)

    Could be fun and cheaper than any ridiculous military adventure...

    we should have been trading with Cuba 50 years ago...Castro would have been put out 48 years ago.

    Horrible mistake in American foreign policy.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:21pm

34. If need be...I would pray I am in a "fox hole or trench" with the likes of Ollie or McCain.....

    and I pray you are NOT in the same predicament and you find yourself in the trench with Sean Penn and Michael Moore....

    any bets on who would come out alive?

    Plasted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:0

    any bets on who would do a whole bunch of really stupid things to get you into a situation where your life was thrown to the trenches?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:23pm

35. I do not expect you to get it Frosty...I am sure 100 people exactly like you with your political beliefs could set Cuba back another 50 years if they wished to advance into the 21st century..

    No matter....

    Time to fire up the BBQ..

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:24pm

36. any bets on who would do a whole bunch of really stupid things to get you into a situation where your life was thrown to the trenches?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:23pm

    Libs..they always do.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:25pm

37. we should have been trading with Cuba 50 years ago...Castro would have been put out 48 years ago. Horrible mistake in American foreign policy.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:21pm

    well,

    we all know how the commies were thrown out in beijing two years after nixon's visit.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:26pm

38. john,

    you are especially cliché today.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:29pm

39. who cares about sean penn?

    geithner!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 5:29pm

40. MLK which cost 40 TIMES more to make than FIREPROOF has a boxoffice gross about equal. But, when you consider Fireproof was only release to the U.S.A. audience it is easy to see the taste for gloryfing perversions does not standup well along side morality focused movies!

    Hollywood will never learn its lesson until relegated full time as an "also in the running".

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 5:37pm

41. "No one is denied health care in the US... "

    (QUOTE OF OF THE YEAR--2009)

    congratulations maasch!

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 5:55pm

42. Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 5:37pm

    Hollywood needs Fairness Doctrine.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 7:25pm

43. "No one is denied health care in the US... "

    (QUOTE OF OF THE YEAR--2009)

    congratulations maasch!

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 5:55pm

    yes it is quote of the year...you need treatment for your pot ailements, go to any emergency room and you will not be denied and in fact, after seeing and trewating you for free,you then will be sent to a free treatment center...and you will not see a bill.

    Someone else will...the evil republicans.

    I suggest you do so...your brain cells that regulate and generate rational thinking are...gone.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 7:34pm

44. "...go to any emergency room and you will not be denied and in fact, after seeing and trewating you for free,you then will be sent to a free treatment center...and you will not see a bill. "

    emergency rooms cannot deny me, but i will still get a bill. in fact, i still get bills even though i already pay for insurance. so if you consider this "free health care," then so be it.

    second, i can easily be denied health care outside of the emergency room. in fact, some insurance companies deny coverage to people with pre-existing conditions. and once you obtain coverage, you are not guaranteed the treatment you need. and even if you are guaranteed the treatment you need, you are not necessarily going to afford it.

    in which case, you suffer.

    that is why (morally and financially) we must offer a universal coverage program.

    national health care should be a priority if this country is to survive post-depression.

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 8:41pm

45. Wow, Jomamma, back off the wagon, it seems.

    "Sean Penn is a great actor but a lousy American. In past generations he would have been shunned as a traitor to his country and his people. As he celebrates the democracy of Castro and Chavez he leaves the rest of America puzzled as to why the media continues to publish his national slander or that Hollywood reveres him. We wonder if he has no shame."

    You show so many problems with your thinking in these opening lines alone. First, as to being shunned as a traitor; etc., yes, the days of McCarthy were wonderful. Nothing like a little Stalinism in the grand old USA. Thank god we live in a society at least nominally more advanced than the one that produced that drunkard's witch hunts.

    Second, Penn does not celebrate the democracy of Castro and Chavez. What he does celebrate is the good things that have gone on in Cuba, and the democracy of the people of Venezuela, something what passes for conservatives today have a really hard time understanding. Fascists, on the other hand, only understand democracy in terms of leaders.

    Thanks for always letting us know where your chips fall.

    Posted by onthehelm at 02/22/2009 @ 9:48pm

46. Sean Penn... is great because he is conscious of, and can express and evoke the range of pain and darkness Limbaugh clones like John PROJECT on others, like Penn, keeps him pushing the envelope. Keep going nowhere Maaaaash, next Sunday, and the next...

    Posted by winyahn at 02/22/2009 @ 9:56pm

47. We can't afford to pay everyones health care PLUS all the other programs galore...Medicare will be bankrupt and so will SS soon..we have too many entitlements...more than we can collect money to pay and still remain an economicaly viable country.

    You can't tax away the people who pay all the taxes...they will quit and move away..look at England and Europe...Africa and the Islamic countrys are pouring into Europe and draining away the resources faster than the local Europeans..who, by the way, are the earners and payers for those systems..and they are not reproducing themselves enough to maintain the birth rates..Europe is disappearing...negative growth rate...however, the non European birth rate is soaring...especially in the Islamic and African cultures there and they will not assimilate. Europe will be Muslim and sooner than you think..Christianity and most religions are dying off with the Europeans..and the immigrants take their religion over the country they moved into...and take religion seriously..which will result in a weakened dead Europe. Third world status and irrelevent...

    The US may be heading in the same direction over time as we jump off the socialistic cliff..

    China and India are racing towards free market econom ys and will dominate the world...and may not be willing to be "liberal"..especially when we in the west have weakened ourselves into third world status..

    The math will kill off the entire system.

    It is not a sustainable system.

    It is simple as that.

    The math is not there.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 9:56pm

48. Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 9:56pm

    John, you and I (and some others) know that trying to explain these facts to these leftists is like trying to put toothpaste back in the tube.

    All they know is that they want someone else to pay for their healthcare, housing, food, education, transportation, and retirement.

    Before political correctness, we had another name for it---leeches

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 10:02pm

49. GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 10:05pm

50. "We can't afford to pay everyones health care PLUS all the other programs galore"

    you just claimed earlier that everyone already has healthcare. so we are, in fact, already paying for everyone's health care (by your estimate). and, by the numbers, we spend more on health care than any other industrialized country.

    so how smart is that, mr. conservative?

    "You can't tax away the people who pay all the taxes...they will quit and move away..look at England and Europe"

    so, according to you, this has already happened in england and europe. that's funny, 'cuz last time i checked, england and europe are a) still in existence; and b) still have people in them. so, apparently, your claim is false.

    and even if you claim were true, then i guess our political leaders won't "tax away the people," as they certainly don't want people to leave the country.

    i won't comment on your claim about negative birth rates. i happen to believe that negative birth rates are precisely what we (or at least the planet) need(s).

    "All they know is that they want someone else to pay for their healthcare, housing, food, education, transportation, and retirement."

    how clueless can one be? it really boggles the mind that there is someone out there (in this case, antisocialist) who actually believes that, under a universal healthcare system, healthcare would be "free."

    the fact that you said, "want someone else to pay," presumably implies that some people simply won't be paying for anything. this is ridiculous.

    if you live and breathe, you pay taxes. sales taxes, payroll.....now, if you're specifically referring to people who are homeless, don't pay taxes, and who don't work, then fine. but how many of these people exist, and if we don't give them healthcare, will they die?

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 10:47pm

51. question for the neocons: are you envious of people who don't work, who don't pay any taxes, and who just loaf around all day?

    if so, then why don't you try it (if it's apparently so fun)?

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 10:58pm

52. Darlaloon,

    "i won't comment on your claim about negative birth rates. i happen to believe that negative birth rates are precisely what we (or at least the planet) need(s)."

    Tell that to the Isamic boys and African guys with 4 wives or more...plus the offspring..

    "the fact that you said, "want someone else to pay," presumably implies that some people simply won't be paying for anything. this is ridiculous. "

    Most do not pay now...we have people who pay no taxes and yet get a refund called "Unearned income tax refund"..this is ridiculous. The lower 50% 0f income earners pay no taxes or pay less than the 10% of the total federal take...thats a lot of free health care..

    NOW THAT BOGGLES THE MIND

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 10:59pm

53. "Tell that to the Isamic boys and African guys with 4 wives or more...plus the offspring.."

    ok. so you believe that, if white (emphasis) european women (not men, but WOMEN) don't start making lots of babies right now, that europe will soon become a predominantly muslim continent? despite the fact that:

    a) europe has laws which specifically prohibit the recognition of one religion over another, and furthermore prohibit that any religious set of rules to govern the people.

    b) even if muslims do become the predominant ethnicity, is there something fundamentally wrong with this? (just curious).

    "Most do not pay now....."

    figures to back up this claim, please. i want you to specifically support the claim that "most" (i.e. more than 50%) do not pay anything into the system, and get back more in return.

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:05pm

54. listen to this: maasch believes that muslims and other immigrants (here, and in europe) essentially STEAL healthcare and other entitlements. because they don't pay any taxes.

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:15pm

55. "Stanford Coins & Bullion, a member of the Stanford Financial Group - their name as good as gold."

    ~ Sean Hannity

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 11:32pm

56. "ok. so you believe that, if white (emphasis) european women (not men, but WOMEN) don't start making lots of babies right now, that europe will soon become a predominantly muslim continent?"

    If one grouip does not reporduce to eqaul or maitain population and another is reproducing at 5 times the rate..what do you think the long term effect would be..

    and it is not color dependent..it is society dependent..Europe and other advanced societys are adjusting their lifes to different life styles..which today manifests itself in having smaller families..more affluent people have more free time to do things in hteir live that a generation ago could not imagine...and these same societys build their countrys and societys to a level of expected conditions....when an immigrant group is added into that same society from one that is bottom 3rd world who have no intention to join the new society but rather bend it to theirs..you have a problem.. Europe is there now. England agreeing to Sharia law is an example of that and represents a death throw to what was England...in my opinion.

    We will join them soon.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 11:33pm

57. england does not "agree" to sharia law, john.

    "when an immigrant group is added into that same society from one that is bottom 3rd world who have no intention to join the new society but rather bend it to theirs"

    how, exactly, would immigrants "bend it"? what can immigrants legally do to our institutions which can somehow destroy that which you cherish? and i presume you cherish a little thing called the constitution. or, perhaps you don't. i don't recall you being too critical of bush throughout his disastrous, law breaking tenure.

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:39pm

58. Obamanation had the biggest smile standing next to Stanford in photos and all the Undemocrats at their convention posed for pictures with their "friend" and contributor Stanford frosty! Wonder if Obamanation and Holder will give him a pardon before or after his trial?

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 11:40pm

59. john, if judges decree tolerance of religions, it does not mean that nations shall obey or practice those religions.

    there is a thing called 'freedom of religion'. and civilized countries respect that fre tedom.

    Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:41pm

60. Obama has said, proudly and often, "I am going to give health insurance to 47 million Americans who are now without coverage." But are they "Americans?"

    That 47 million statistic includes illegal immigrants, who virtually all lack insurance. In fact, about one in four of those lacking insurance is here illegally. And they are, by far, the group most in need of health insurance.

    About 15 million of the remaining uninsured are eligible for Medicaid but haven't signed up, mainly because they haven't gotten sick. When they do, they enroll in Medicaid and we pick up the full tab for their health care relatively cheaply. (About 80 percent of each Medicaid dollar goes to nursing-home care for the elderly, only about 20 percent for the medical needs of the poor.)

    The rest of the uninsured pool? Virtually all the children are eligible for the State Children's Health Insurance Program. Some aren't enrolled because the parents haven't bothered, but most are eligible. That leaves about 20 million uninsured adults who are US citizens or legal immigrants. There are far better ways to handle their needs than to turn our entire health-care system upside down.

    Care for illegals is the biggest unmet medical need in our nation, and Obama's program targets it squarely. But do we really want to give them federally paid coverage equal to what US senators get, as Obama proposes?

    Covering illegals adds dramatically to the cost of any program - and would encourage more folks to enter America illicitly.

    Obama's plan will likely have a horrific effect on some local health-care systems.

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 11:46pm

61. Illegals now get free emergency-room treatment for life-threatening conditions, as any other American who's entered an ER in an area with lots of illegals recently well knows. (Three-quarters of the illegal-immigrant population is concentrated in five states: California, New York, Florida, Texas and Illinois.)

    But now they'd be eligible for the entire range of medical services, all free of charge. That would trigger severe rationing: bureaucrats deciding who gets to see an oncologist, who can have an MRI - and even who can have bypass surgery and who'd die for lack of it.

    It is hard YOURJOMAMMA to argue the truth with those thick as a brick and dumb as door! But, if you want to post to Darlaloon go ahead!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 11:49pm

62. I can see the whole thing went right over your head...I was a silly to engage..

    Why don't you read what I wrote a few times and try to comprehend what I wrote.

    I have grown bored.

    Have a brownie.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 11:50pm

63. Comanch...you're right..

    I wasted my time.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:00am

64. Penn won for Milk..what a surprise...

    another movie that will be ignored by the general public....but hey...it is PC enough.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:02am

65. I agree completely with Robert De Niro - Sean Penn is "a great human being".

    Essentially, the exact polar opposite of the sick, pathetic, moral midgets...

    ...who jumped in here to run him down.

    Posted by Lillian at 02/23/2009 @ 12:11am

66. Posted by Lillian at 02/23/2009 @ 12:11am

    If only you mattered...I am sure I do not matter to you.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:13am

67. GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!

    GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 10:05pm

    Frosty has a fried brain

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 12:13am

68. Today Obamanation told all the illegals by radio that (since they vote overwhelmingly for the Undemocrats) he is looking to "fasttrack" all of them into U.S.A. citizenship!!! Yep, he and the Undemocrats really know how to take care of their "supporters"!!!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/23/2009 @ 12:14am

69. GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 10:

    No, he is light and in him is no darkness at all according to his word! Of course he did not say what color of the light spectrum he is?!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/23/2009 @ 12:16am

70. Penn won for Milk..what a surprise...

    another movie that will be ignored by the general public....but hey...it is PC enough.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:02am

    Penn in his speech displayed is usual arrogant elitist attitude and lack of resepect for anyone who disagrees with him.

    He is a very forgettable person.

    fortunately the evening was made by the overwhelming victory of Slumdog Millionaire. What a difference a quality film makes compared to the typical Hollywood garbage like Milk.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 12:20am

71. Posted by sntauri at 02/22/2009 @ 11:28am Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 10:53am Posted by Happy at 02/22/2009 @ 2:07pm Posted by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 10:02pm

    What excuse can you offer for your bigotry and your soul sucking, ignorant commentary? It's like listening to Archie Bunker but without the benefit of the environmental excuses of growing up during The Great Depression that he had or understanding that ultimately his cartoonish ideas were a form of satire.

    You people should all move on to conservative sites where you can share your terrible ideas with similar people. The justification for coming here - which Jomamma once shared was because he hoped to understand people that had different ideas from him - is no longer operative. You all have turned into low-grade trolls polluting the forum with your "contributions".

    Do us all a favor and either start contributing meaningful, thoughtful conservative commentary or go somewhere else where you can fling your excreta with abandon without hitting people that don't enjoy your perverse form of "fun".

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:46am

72. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 12:20am

    "Penn in his speech displayed is usual arrogant elitist attitude and lack of resepect for anyone who disagrees with him...He is a very forgettable person."

    I believe the word you are looking for is...irony. Replace antisocialist with Penn and see how the sentence sounds to you. Sounds about right on to me.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:50am

73. Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:02am

    Oh, and John Maasch. I don't know where you live, but Milk was sold out the first two times I tried to see it. Perhaps your view is a bit, parochial.

    Try visiting a city or watching different fare than what you can catch on the plane to Hong Kong, you might find there is a whole world out there.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:53am

74. I believe the word you are looking for is...irony. Replace antisocialist with Penn and see how the sentence sounds to you. Sounds about right on to me.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:50am

    of course you do. the past few months have seen you become like some of the more obnoxious leftists.

    And of course Penn's lack of respect for other religious views is perfectly within your leftist view of "tolerance".

    As I've said before, the only acceptable Christians to you are those that deny their faith.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 01:07am

75. Oh, and John Maasch. I don't know where you live, but Milk was sold out the first two times I tried to see it. Perhaps your view is a bit, parochial.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:53am

    Most theatres in my area are not showing it. Only the theatre by the University is showing it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 01:25am

76. Sr,

    I live in the Midwest and I see movies all the time... Probably more than most with hotels and airplanes.

    Milk doesn't even piqué my interest so I will never see it unless nothing else would be available.

    And yes, I did come here to learn something new and found the same old crap. Same old solutions yo every problem no matter how diverse or unreleted.

    Tax the rich, free universal health care, move govt in all our lives, corporations along with profit, free enterprise are the root of all evil, responsibility equals racism and bigotry, ALGORE is an genius and was elected president, Bush lied,unions built this country, public schools are great but need more money, drive equals greed and higher taxes grows the economy....

    I could go on but....I now come here for sheer entertainment.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 01:34am

77. GOD IS WHITE!!!!!!!!!! Posted by frosty zoom at 02/22/2009 @ 10: No, he is light and in him is no darkness at all according to his word! Of course he did not say what color of the light spectrum he is?!

    Posted by comancheamerican at 02/23/2009 @ 12:16am

    to me,

    god is everything we will never understand.

    god's nice.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 01:54am

78. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 01:07am

    The last few months have seen me grow tired of obnoxious commentary of so-called "conservatives" that like to dish it out but don't seem to have much stomach for being on the recieving end. Such as those that like to talk about the intolerance of others while ironically demonstrating their own intolerance.

    I don't know who you are. I'm not particularly interested in tracking all the name changes, other than noting that it seems that the so-called "conservatives" here seem to be the one's changing their names with any regularity. Perhaps it is because they don't want to be held accountable? Or as I've seen it described elsewhere, maybe it's the Greater Internet Fuckwad Theory.

    You are right about one thing. I do think any form of Christianity that tries to hide behind Christ and that gets upset about people disrespecting "Christianity" isn't worthy of the name.

    I think this captures the point nicely:

    "I said to one of the Cuban Friends, "It must be hard to be a Christian in Cuba." He smiled, "Not as hard as it is in the United States," he said. Of course, I asked why he said that, and he went on, "You are tempted by three idols that do not tempt us. One is affluence, which we do not have. Another is power, which we also do not have. The third is technology, which again we do not have. Furthermore, when you join a church or a meeting, you gain in social acceptance and respectability. When we join, we lose those things, so we must be very clear about what we believe and what the commitment is that we are prepared to make."

    It would be the greatest blessing if Christians were disrespected more in this country - so we might get a better sense of who is worshiping idols and who is actually worshipping Christ.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 02:15am

79. Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 02:15am

    Yes, the CHRISTians have had a rough time in America, having an almost complete monopoly on the faith of America for the past 400 years or so.

    A rough time indeed.

    And all the while we have the clowns crying about their persecution, when in reality, they're running the show.

    Let's hear more from Larry about the plight of the christian religious fanatic in America, having to constantly take it in the chin from that mean old Sean Penn and Michael Moore.

    Poor Joel Osteen and his private jets and multi-million dollar churches.

    It's the exact same thing as when they were crying about Sarah Moosehunter having to suffer through those terrible "what books do you read" questions from that dastardly and sinister "gotcha" journalist...Katie Couric!

    LOL

    What America needs is fewer fat, white, fanatical, lazy, bigoted zealots. Imagine what kind of world we could have if we didn't have to deal with that particular subset of human?

    Posted by TexasFlood at 02/23/2009 @ 02:36am

80. If the conservative movement is so weak and lame as to be foiled by the likes of Sean fucking Penn, maybe it needs to be put to rest out of nothing more than pity.

    You freedom hating cowards sure do make me sick to my stomach.

    Posted by TexasFlood at 02/23/2009 @ 02:45am

81. and larry,

    what do you think of this:

    GALILEE CHRISTIANS, CLERGY PROTEST CH. 10 SKETCH ON MARY

    By Jack Khoury

    A satiric sketch on Channel 10 television prompted dozens of Christians in the Galilee to demonstrate against the channel this weekend, while the heads of local Christian churches published a denunciation of their own.

    In their denunciation, the clergymen accused the skit of fomenting interreligious hatred.

    The skit, which aired on Lior Shlein's nightly program, was called "Like a Virgin," after the Madonna song.

    It denied that Jesus had walked on water, as stated in the New Testament, and claimed that not only was Mary not a virgin when she gave birth to him, as Christian tradition holds, but that she was promiscuous and had sex with many men besides her husband.

    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065918.html

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 02:47am

82. *note

    That is not to imply I'm so foolish as to believe that the likes of antisocialist, comanche, or any of their friends are actual conservatives.

    After all, they've all been exhibiting their support for a socialist welfare state for some years now.

    Posted by TexasFlood at 02/23/2009 @ 02:49am

83. RAPTOR!

    In 2007, the top 5 firms paid out $39 billion in bonuses, even as their shareholders lost $74 billion. Those firms have since received $60 billion in federal bailouts.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 02:51am

84. ARRRR, MATEY!

    http://img.timeinc.net//time/cartoons/20090206/cartoons_01.jpg

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 03:15am

85. >> His remarkable performance will inspire others to seek office with the same radical aspiration as Harvey Milk. <<

    Nichols sees the propaganda value of movies. Stalin is said to have mused: "what I could not do with Hollywood." Actually, Beverly Hills has tried to do quite a lot in that direction.

    With a little nip and tuck Whittiker Foster's terrific Academy Award impersonation of Idi Amini, could have become an inspiration to many an African tyrant.

    With a few script changes quite a lot of appetites might have been stimulated by Anthony Hopkins' Oscar winning portrayal of Hannibal Lecter.

    Just think of Paul Muni's famously portrayed of Al Capone in Scarface, Al Pacino in the Godfather, Jay Novello played Willie Sutton. Those sterling performances could have set endless crime waves blazing.

    Bruno Ganz did a tremendous job in The Downfall. A few changes in the script and different lighting and who knows how many might be inspired towards Adolf Hitler's radical aspiration.

    Yea.

    Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/23/2009 @ 03:37am

86. I saw the Japanese film that won the best foreign film in December.

    Fabulous film...... The rest of Oscars, which I do not watch, is nothing more than a mutual admiration society.

    Should be called, " Libs Gone Wild".....to hear the acolades of the actors one would think the are the saviors of the nation, rather than butchers of our culture, they are typical of limosine liberals praising socialistic liberalism from their mansions as their money us moved around and safetly tucked away from the taxman and the libs "new idea" mill.

    Lotsa horseshit generated on those Oscar nights. One can smell it while never having to watch it.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 08:19am

87. Penn is truely a hero for the ages:

    <...Yawn...>

    Like with Al Gore, the choice was another example of the terminally stupid patting one of their own on the back

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/23/2009 @ 08:58am

88. Penn is truely a hero for the ages:

    <...Yawn...>

    Like with Al Gore, the choice was another example of the terminally stupid patting one of their own on the back

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/23/2009 @ 08:58am

89. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/23/2009 @ 03:37am

    Wow....so Harvey Milk and gay rights is the equivalent of Hitler and Nazism? You guys don't get TOO worked up, do you?....heheh

    BTW, any doubt that Hugo would have voted for Larry Craig because "Larry is out there defending traditional Christian values"....and is an avid reader of Matt Drudge who NEVER asks why Matt "hasn't found the right girl yet"?

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 09:03am

90. BTW, is the reason for all the vitrole from the Right towards Sean Penn because...

    HE was right about Iraq's WMDs and they weren't?

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 09:05am

91. Mask,

    Right about WMDs? No one but the left gives a shut about those...

    Penn is reviled because he is seen as a the worst in America. We can envision him visiting Nazi Germany admiring the autobahns and blaming Hoover for the concentration camps or how we haven't help the peace loving soviets.

    Mask, I really don't think you unaware why Penn turns the stomache of most of America. His admiration of Chavez and all be is doing in Venz should raise eye brows even on the left side if the bench where you are firmly planted.

    We can leave his G5 trips to Iran for later. I do wonder what would have happened to him if he traveled in the WW2 era like he does today. Think he would win any awards or would the public demand he he given a free vacation in the crowbar hotel?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 09:15am

92. Right about WMDs? No one but the left gives a shut about those...---Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 09:15am

    Condi Rice is a Leftist?!??!

    "The problem here is that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he can acquire nuclear weapons. But we don't want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud."

    Hmmm, who knew?

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 09:35am

93. You know folks, the best thing to do with those like YourJomamma is to ignore them. His type only comes here to post the reichwing clap-trap, to harass, and to get paid by the RNC. They get paid for every comment they post so the best thing to do is to IGNORE them. The less you engage them the better. They aren't saying anything that we haven't heard ad nauseum. They don't come here to try and understand anyone on our side of the political spectrum. They are liars and deceivers. Their only purpose is to post disinformation and the Limbaugh/Faux Propaganda Talking points. Don't waste your time or energy trying to give them the facts. They aren't interested. They have an agenda. If you can't laugh at them then ignore them.

    Posted by Ederlore at 02/23/2009 @ 09:40am

94. Elderod,

    I come here for entertainment that types like you provide daily. I wish I could get paid by the RNC, but they never would pay me.... I am not a Republican but I am a conservative. More of a liberterian really, but you appear to be just another loon.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 10:00am

95. BTW, is the reason for all the vitrole from the Right towards Sean Penn because...

    HE was right about Iraq's WMDs and they weren't?

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 09:05am

    I'm still waiting for Penn to be right about anything. He's an arrogant jerk by reputation and admission.

    The left celebrates him because he issues an in your face challenge to Christians whom he despises.

    Well, I've got some news for Penn; there are more of us than there are of his Hollywood perversion loving friends. They would love to have all morality done away with, but it's not going to be quite as easy as he would like.

    BTW- Milk ranked 98th in film gross for 2008.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:03am

96. Posted by Ederlore at 02/23/2009 @ 09:40am

    I have Jomomma on ignore. I still see some of the commentary through the quotations of others, like "antisocialist" (which is a new nick used by another poster I probably have ignored). Of course, I could just ignore any posts by not reading or responding - if they aren't making a meaningful contribution, but I think the point has to be raised about the kind of "contributions" these people are making.

    Some of them actually believe that they are engaged in some kind of meaningful dialogue, and they do not understand how they have moved from an honorable purpose (i.e., to understand the ideas and attitudes of people who think and believe differently which is at the heart of tolerance) to pitiful displays of bigotry, intolerance and ignorance.

    It's like the person who toilet paper stuck to their shoe or a gigantic booger dried in their mustache. Someone, out of kindness, should let them know about the problem. And if they stubbornly persist that wearing a booger in their mustache is what everyone should be doing because Jesus or Rush Limbaugh thinks it is a good idea, then asking them to go somewhere else while you eat your lunch is appropriate.

    Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 10:09am

97. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:03am

    Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 10:12am

98. Elderod,

    I come here for entertainment that types like you provide daily. I wish I could get paid by the RNC, but they never would pay me.... I am not a Republican but I am a conservative. More of a liberterian really, but you appear to be just another loon.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 10:00am

    JM,

    you are right again. Without their daily spoon fed propaganda from Daily Kos or Huffington Post, idiots like Elderod wouldn't know how to spell cognitive much less put a sentence together that reflected such thinking.

    After all, they have been taught/brainwashed into believing that all conservatives are ignorant rednecks with a 3rd grade education that cannot think for themselves.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:13am

99. Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?

    Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 10:12am

    What we know is that:

    Saddam refused to provide proof of the destruction of WMD

    Saddam was planning to fully reinstate all of his WMD programs including nuclear weapons if he could get the sanctions lifted

    No one knows what happened to much of his WMD arsenal.

    Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:18am

100. The last few months have seen me grow tired of obnoxious commentary of so-called "conservatives" that like to dish it out but don't seem to have much stomach for being on the recieving end....

     It would be the greatest blessing if Christians were disrespected more in this country....

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 02:15am

     I get an UNmistakable read on your mood that is just a more nuanced desire for something that's the blog version of the Fairness Doctrine in "The last few months"!

     Christians are already disrespected, and worse, by every Leftists & Islamists in this country AND the world over.

     I for one, while not remotely in the Religious Right, would like to see--yes, you read that correctly--a huge uprising/backlash from the Christian community before it is too late! Gert Wilder's being refused entry into Britain was despicable while Ismaists are aided and abetted by the looney Left!

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:42am

101. Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 12:46am

     Request denied.

     Posted by sntauri at 02/23/2009 @ 10:56am

102. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:18am

     Answer my question, Larry...

     "Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?"

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 11:00am

103. No one knows what happened to much of his WMD arsenal.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:18am

     And at this point no one cares...except here at the fringe.

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 11:02am

104. "Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?"

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 11:00am

     I will answer...

     yes, "our" side, which includes the democratic congress, Europe, all intelligence agencys were also wrong, all America and the West...so?

     BUT,...Penn was right AFTER the fact...

     Thats like giving sopmeone credit for claiming they were right regarding the house is on fire...AFTER the fire dept has already left.

     Not much credit,...

     I have a question for you..

     Is Penn right about Castro and Chavez...is he right to celebrate their versions of "democracy"?

     Or is it more of "who gives a shit about Penn?..." and if it is this option, then why does the left worship him?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 11:09am

105. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:13am

     As opposed to your posts? What exactly do you bring to the table beyond name calling? The only difference is you don't need to read anything for that.

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:42am

     It's called having respectful discourse. You should try it on the Internet some time. I know you don't talk this way to "real people" because doing so has consequences.

     Posted by sntauri at 02/23/2009 @ 10:56am

     Perhaps you can provide some insight into your motivations then? What exactly do you get out of your "participation" in this forum? Or is it like Jomamma who apparently has decided that grieving people "for entertainment" is more his style than understanding them or making a meaningful contribution?

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 11:10am

106. My congrats to Sean Penn, who can not only act, but can think & feel. He's as fine a writer as he is an actor. I look forward to some great things from him. Roll over Orson Welles.

     Posted by Sorelish at 02/23/2009 @ 11:18am

107. I see from the Edelore-Jomamma exchange a typical left vs common sense battle:

     Jo tells it like it is Ed insults, reads what he doesn't like then gets mad and "Ignores",which is the cyber equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and going "NyahNyahnyahnyahnyah."

     Typical

     Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/23/2009 @ 11:18am

108. My god, there are alot of comments on this post. I see the real americans (small "a") have weighed in on Sean Penn's alleged lack of patriotism because he chooses to use his constitutional freedoms to voice his opinions and pursue changes in America that he deems beneficial to everyone. What a traitor! How dare he discuss the benefits of socialist governments and speak out against U.S. policies and conduct he finds questionable. Doesn't he realize that by freedom the constitution means freedom to support our government functionaries? Funny how its always conservatives who complain about people exercising their First Amendment Rights. If they had their way, the only thing left of the Bill of Rights would be part of Amendment II (and they don't even understand that one). Oh, and yeah, actors lack substance so they should just shut up! You know, like Ronald Reagan.

     BTW, Spiccolli included, Penn is among the greatest character actors on film. You may think Spicocolli a lightweight role, but plenty have tried to play a convincing slacker (think Keanu) only to come across as sleepy. Penn nailed it. If you need more evidence of his powerful acting abilities, see The Falcon and the Snowman, Colors, Caualties of War, Dead Man Walking, The Thin Red Line, I Am Sam, All the Kings Men and Mystic River. Also, he wrote and directed Into the Wild. The guys a powerhouse.

     Posted by Cannonball at 02/23/2009 @ 11:32am

109. Cannonball,

     Good thing you are not in charge of targeting cannons fire for our country...you missed by a mile with the 2nd sentence..

     "I see the real americans (small "a") have weighed in on Sean Penn's alleged lack of patriotism because he chooses to use his constitutional freedoms to voice his opinions and pursue changes in America that he deems beneficial to everyone. "

     We have not weighed in because he chose to use his constitutional freedoms...we are not Fairness Doctine police here...we weighed in about WHAT he says, not the fact that he say what he wants...

     I weigh in that idiots take him for an expert on what is good for the country...say, socialism, for example, while he is neither an expert and does not live with socialism or its devastating results on the AVERAGE person...yet he meets to discuss the great ideals of it with Chavez, Iran, ect, and wants to bring that shit here...I promise you..that type of sociaslism will be met with fierce resistance and should be....by everyone...it is a freedom killer.

     Big,Big, difference..

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 11:58am

110. "I'm still waiting for Penn to be right about anything."----Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:03am

     "BUT,...Penn was right AFTER the fact..."-----Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 11:09am

     There ya go, LVLIB...MAASCH with the assist.

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 12:04pm

111. Yup, and when times get tough and I need some real help and strength...

     If need be...I would pray I am in a "fox hole or trench" with the likes of Ollie or McCain.....

     and I pray you are NOT in the same predicament and you find yourself in the trench with Sean Penn and Michael Moore....

     any bets on who would come out alive?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/22/2009 @ 5:01

     They have foxholes in our newest liberal secular "democracy".

     When you goin to Iraq? Take Ollie with you for extra security.

     Meanwhile we can support the country that allows different opinions, even those as dumb as some of Penns. I mean really, It's not like he did business with Saddam Hussein or Iran, like Richard Cheney.

     Until you actually go into a fox hole...it's kind of a bizarre analogy, ain't it?

     Maybe a better one would be...who would you rather violate US law and lie to congress with?

     How would someone like Penn go over in your beloved China? We could learn a lot from them. Like how to build a govt subsidized high speed rail system, and how to build better gulags that lefties won't whine about.

     "It was Obama's White House that, in the final hours of negotiations over the $787 billion stimulus bill, sought and won $8 billion for high-speed rail projects."-CHI SUNTIMES

     From the mouth of JOMAMA to the ear of Obama.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:14pm

112. "which includes the democratic congress, Europe, all intelligence agencys were also wrong, all America and the West...so? "-JOMAMA

     The key to this little qoute is...

     who supplied the Europeans with the intel they based their "decsion" on? Same question about the dems in congress that voted to go to war. Giving false info to people and then saying "Well, they agreed with us" is a pretty damn flacid argument.

     And, what was the final decision of many European countries vis-a-vis the "coalition of the willing"? What % of troops did Europe make up of the entire force. What was the response of the citizesn of those countries?

     WIKI the unreliable easy source:

     "Beginning in 2002, and continuing after the 2003 invasion of Iraq, protests against the Iraq War were held in many cities worldwide, often coordinated to occur simultaneously around the world. After the biggest series of demonstrations, on February 15, 2003, New York Times writer Patrick Tyler claimed that they showed that there were two superpowers on the planet, the United States and worldwide public opinion.

     According to the French academic Dominique Reynié, between January 3 and April 12, 2003, 36 million people across the globe took part in almost 3,000 protests against the Iraq war.

     Gallup Polls updated September 14, 2007 state, "Since the summer of 2005, opponents of the war have tended to outnumber supporters. A majority of Americans believe the war was a mistake."

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:21pm

113. Who Da Fringe?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:23pm

114. Crab,

     " Like how to build a govt subsidized high speed rail system,... "

     I agree...but we can't get it done here, with all the environuts, unions, state regs, fed regs, the endless mindless law suits...never happen...the costs would long sink the project, but then again,,goct would finace and build it, so inefficiency would be it legacy.

     I for one would ride high speed rails to every city in America if one were available..

     I do have a question...

     where is Code Pink now that 17,000 are off to Afganistan?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:24pm

115. where is Code Pink now that 17,000 are off to Afganistan?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:24pm

     Probably the top floor of the gallery in congress, getting hauled out by police. Or if not there, they could be at work, paying taxes.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:29pm

116. Or if not there, they could be at work, paying taxes.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:29pm

     They must have been on vacation when Bush was president then?

     They are not to be found...

     think if Bush announced 17,000 troops for Afganistan the CODE PINK freaks would be at their jobs and paying taxes?

     Or would we see all 12 of them every night on TV?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:34pm

117. Just think John it could be 17,001.

     You could go teach them the better ways of capitalism sans socialism. I recommend leaving out the bit where China has socialist/totalitarian tendencies.

     I wonder, how many political/religious prisoners does China have compared to Cuba. And how many times you have traveled to China vs how many times Penn has been to Cuba?

     "Mar 17, 2008, 16:17 GMT

     Beijing - The number of Chinese political prisoners rose in 2007 to its highest level in eight years, according to a report published Monday by the US-based Dui Hua Foundation.

     According to report, arrests in China for 'endangering state security' rose from 561 in 2006 to 742 in 2007.

     ------

     " February 4, 2009 11:31 am TWN, By Jeff Franks, Reuters

     Cuba holding fewer political prisoners: report HAVANA -- The number of political prisoners in Cuba has fallen, but the government is detaining many more dissidents for brief periods, a Cuban human rights group said on Monday. The Cuban Commission on Human Rights, a nongovernmental organization, said in a report there were 205 political prisoners as of last week, down from 234 a year ago."

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:35pm

118. Or would we see all 12 of them every night on TV?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 12:34pm

     Maybe between you and Ollie you could fight off the 12 ladies.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:37pm

119. Really curious to see how JOMAMAMA views his multiple trips to a totalitarian socialist/capitalist country to earn money compared to Penns trips to Cuba to make an (ill informed) political point?

     I have read someone here that wrote JOMAMMA should not do much against the govt of China because he is a visitor and one does not insult ones host. But, he comes to The Nation and insults everyone to the left of Grover Norquist...

     ----

     So, environmentalists have been working for years to get some high speed rail lines built in the US, but now they are going to oppsoe it? Sounds like PONTI FLogic to me.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:43pm

120. And yes, some envrionmentalist may oppose certain aspects of specific rail projects.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 12:45pm

121. "They are not to be found..."

     this is yet another example of how jomamma says one thing, and reality says another:

     http://www.codepink4peace.org/

     my girlfriends over at codepink never stop working

     Posted by darladoon at 02/23/2009 @ 12:55pm

122. "Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?"

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 11:00am

     NO- I explained why but that is never sufficient for you. You are like a 3 year old. Every answer brings 5 new questions that restate the first question.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 12:56pm

123. Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:42am

     Oh, and one other point Happy. You are aware this website is called "The Nation"? That's a publication that has a slightly left slant to its coverage.

     Think of it this way. When you invite someone over to your home for a conversation, it is generally considered rude to use their kitchen as toilet. And here, you're the guest. Do us the favor and stop befouling the forum.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 1:09pm

124. it is generally considered rude to use their kitchen as toilet. And here, you're the guest. Do us the favor and stop befouling the forum.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 1:09pm

     So this is your toilet?

     Or your kitchen?

     Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 1:14pm

125. BTW, I am in favor of the 17,000 troops being sent to Afghanistan.

     I just think each troop should be watching over:

     1 physician

     2 nurses

     2 teachers

     2 engineers

     1 entrepeneur that is not on a cost plus contract.

     etc.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 1:17pm

126. Posted by darladoon at 02/23/2009 @ 12:55pm

     : )

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 1:19pm

127. Oh, and one other point Happy. You are aware this website is called "The Nation"? That's a publication that has a slightly left slant to its coverage.

     Think of it this way. When you invite someone over to your home for a conversation, it is generally considered rude to use their kitchen as toilet. And here, you're the guest. Do us the favor and stop befouling the forum.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 1:09pm

     you bring up one good point. The Nation used to post with each thread, a statement encouraging debate. they have removed that statement. Does this mean they have changed their minds and you are now positing their view that this is about people merely agreeing with each other?

     That is hardly representative of a democratic process. but perhaps that's what you prefer SRJ.

     BTW, I'm lvliberty1. For whatever reason, like Mask, Ibblebibble, Maasch, and others, I was pulled from this website.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:20pm

128. Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 1:09pm

     How many times have you been asked to leave someones house, but you keep coming back, again and again and again and again...insulting them the whole time?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 1:22pm

129. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 12:56pm

     No, actually MAASCH answered my question...and yours-

     "I'm still waiting for Penn to be right about anything."----Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 10:03am

     "BUT,...Penn was right AFTER the fact..."-----Posted by YourJomamma at 02/23/2009 @ 11:09am

     Congratulations...your wait is over!

     heheh

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 1:36pm

130. my girlfriends over at codepink never stop working

     Posted by darladoon at 02/23/2009 @ 12:55pm

     And we understand why they never stop.

     Code Pinko

     By Jean Pearce FrontPageMagazine.com | Wednesday, March 26, 2003

     Like any other group, Communists come in a lot of shapes, sizes and colors. This time they're wearing pink, they're on the nightly news, and more than anything, they want the mothers and grandmothers of America to identify with them.

     At the center of Code Pink is legendary leftist organizer Medea Benjamin, the 50-year-old mother of two widely credited as a chief organizing force behind the 1999 Seattle riots in which 50,000 protesters did millions of dollars worth of property damage in their effort to shut down meetings of the World Trade Organization.

     The mindset of Benjamin and her friends can best be summed up by her description in the San Francisco Chronicle of how she felt on her first pilgrimage to Cuba in the early 1980s. Compared to life in the United States, the communist social equality of Cuba "made it seem like I died and went to heaven," Benjamin enthused. Now it appears that Benjamin is trying to recreate it here.

     The ties that continue to bind Benjamin, Cagan and the others behind Code Pink and today's anti-war movement were formed in the early-to-mid 1980s when the still young Marxist-American activists found the cause that first unified them: a communist government in Nicaragua

     continued

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:37pm

131. TheFinn,

     As you were touting how great Fidel's health care and education systems are (way long ago in this thread) and how much better they are than we have here (according to you), I had some thoughts.

     1. How many MRI machines were invented, developed and manufactured in Fidel's workers paradise?

     2. There are more MRI Machines in Pittsburgh than in all of Canada, where they have socialist medicine. Since you are an advocate of the Cuban system, perhaps you can tell me how the number of MRI machines in Pittsburgh (home of the 6 time winner Steelers) compares to the number in Cuba (home of Elian Gonzeles, who is not free anymore).?

     3. You say that in the U.S. poor people may not have access to education. Why would that be, since public education is supposed to solve that problem?

     4. Are you aware that in the U.S., besides poor people, there are kids who are middle class and even wealthy, who may not have access to education either, if they go to public school and are taught by an unqualified teacher who has tenure and seniority and can not be fired, or if they receive liberal political indoctrination instead of education?

     By the way, no doubt you and other libs will think that the mention of the Steelers is not relevant to the subject of education.

     Not true- people who would learn from the Steelers are much better off than anyone who would be learning from Fidel's system (that you think is so great)

     What Learning Professionals Can Learn From the Steelers http://karlkapp.blogspot.com/ 2009/02/what-learning- professionals-can -learn.html

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 1:39pm

132. more on Darla's friends at Code Pink

     In the 1990s, Benjamin and other Code Pink Marxists focused their energies on organizing sometimes-violent protests against free trade across the globe, targeting large corporations with high-profile campaigns and lawsuits that cost consumers and companies like Gap, Nike and Starbucks millions of dollars. As with the anti-war protests of the moment, the Marxist World Worker's Party website has played a crucial organizing role in their anti-corporate activities, letting would-be agitators know when and where to show up for demonstrations.

     Meanwhile, other Code Pink organizers were making a name for themselves in domestic and eco-terrorism in the 1990s. Code Pink Co-Founder Jodie Evans also sits on the board of directors of Rain Forest Action Network (RAN), a radical anti-capitalist, anti-corporate coalition of environmental groups co-founded by Mike Roselle, who also founded the domestic terrorist organization Earth Liberation Front (ELF), which along with the Animal Liberation Front (ALF) is ranked the No. 1 domestic terrorism threat by the FBI.

     The FBI attributes over 600 criminal acts and $43 million in damages to the two groups since 1996. Wherever RAN pops up, you'll also tend to find the Ruckus Society, which has trained activists for ELF/ALF. Ruckus Society organizer Steve Kretzmann, also a Code Pink coordinator, has helped train activists in the agitation tactics that have earned the Ruckus Society its reputation. The Ruckus Society, it's also worth mentioning, is a coalition member of Benjamin's United for Peace and Justice.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:42pm

133. While it may seem chaotic with its mass of groups with varied interests, "the movement" as the organizers like to call it, is built around a simple theme: that America and the rest of the world is increasingly controlled by corporate powers that threaten democratic rights. Its goals, as laid out by Benjamin and others in a variety of newspapers over the years, are clear-cut.

     They want to redistribute wealth from the top tiers of society to the poorest Americans by raising minimum wages, choking off trade, pushing up inflation, limiting corporate growth and dragging down the stock market, cutting into the profits of the country's largest corporations or shutting them down completely and prompting white collar layoffs.

     As Benjamin explained to The Sunday Oregonian in 2000, these changes would be made slowly, perhaps over 20 years or more. Though she admits that the above would cause an economic shakedown or even a stock-market crash, she insists the changes would lead to a "healthier, more stable economy."

     The Code Pink ladies have been biding their time ever since, reaching out to middle America, building their contact lists and dreaming of the Marxist America that might one day be.

     http://tinyurl.com/dbxf6f

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:42pm

134. calling someone a "marxist" is an observation, but not an argument, or even a criticism.

     Posted by darladoon at 02/23/2009 @ 2:01pm

135. BOO!

     12 leftists compete with Northrup Grummond

     be afraid.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 2:02pm

136. I am enjoying our stable economy now. Why would we want any changes?

     What Code Pink cannot accomplish, Lehman Bros may.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 2:03pm

137. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:20pm

     "...you bring up one good point. The Nation used to post with each thread, a statement encouraging debate."

     You see, that's the problem. Let's review a few of your comments on this thread:

     "No surprise that the leftists here pour on the praise for an actor who loves marxism more than America and who is being idolized for portraying a sexual pervert."

     "All they know is that they want someone else to pay for their healthcare, housing, food, education, transportation, and retirement."

     And so on. That's not debate, LVL. That's insulting, and they are comments that you and I both know you don't make to people in person.

     Additionally, it is ironic, because you and I both know that I paid more taxes last year than you paid in the last decade - and more of my money went to policies you favor - such as wars of aggression - than to those I favor such as better education and healthcare.

     "Does this mean they have changed their minds..."

     Maybe it means that the now acknowledge that we have a cadre of conservative freeloaders that enjoy grieving The Nation readers and trying to undermine their non-profit business by driving people that read and subscribe to their magazine (like me) away - and no notice is going to change that.

     "...you are now positing their view that this is about people merely agreeing with each other?"

     I don't agree with frosty, crabwalk, darladoon, be_kool and a whole host of others on this site. You presence is not necessary for interesting debate, and I would argue is a detriment to it. There may have been a time when you offered something unique and useful. That time has passed. I can only hope it might return again.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 2:04pm

138. Projected by antisocialist at 02/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

     (Too funny, Frosty...)

     Posted by drhammer at 02/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

139. Penn was born in August 1960 in Los Angeles County, California. His father, Leo Penn, was an actor and director, a supporter of the Hollywood trade unions, and an open communist.

     Penn is a member of Not In Our Name (a "peace" front for C. Clark Kissinger's Revolutionary Communist Party) and Artists United to Win Without War.

     October 2007

     "Muslim terror leaders are hailing statements by actor Sean Penn regarding Iran, the war in Iraq and the global war on terror, stating militants have 'deep respect' for Penn and urging Americans to listen to the outspoken Hollywood activist immediately. One senior jihadist leader even asked Penn to officially represent his terror organization's cause to the world media.

     "'I tell Penn that we don't have the money that the Zionists have, therefore we don't own and we don't have access to your media, and we hope you would ... represent our pain and our cause,' stated Abu Hamed, northern Gaza Strip commander of the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigades …

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

140. Typo,

     Up above I made an error in my statement. I implied that Cuba is the home of Elian Gonzales.

     The United States of America is Elian Gonzales' home, not Cuba.

     Thanks to Janet Reno, et. al., Elian is stuck in Fidel's workers paradise, where he is receiving an inferior education in Fidel's glorious system.

     He may be literate, as supposedly all under Fidel are, but what good is literacy if you can not read what you want?

     Does Elian know who the Bus is? That would be Jerome Bettis, who retired from the Steelers when they won the last Super Bowl they were in prior to this year.

     The Bus could teach Elian a lot more about how to live life and succeed in life, then any of the socialist "teachers" that Fidel has.

     But that's right, he can't! Because Elian was "liberated" and returned to Utopia. And now doubt Elian has no clue who the Steelers are.

     Too bad. I'm sure Sean Penn thinks that's OK.

     As long as I was correcting my typo, I had another thought.

     Libs go beserk over the thought of corporate CEO salaries - how come they do not seem to care about the income of the leftist Hollywood actors and actresses such as Sean Penn?

     What do you libs have to say about that?

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

141. Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 02:47am

     Greetings, frosty and others! I don't know about Larry, but I have an opinion. While I do think that the sketch was kinda fucked up to portray the virgin Mary like that(I'm Catholic so that explains that). I don't think riots should ensue or people should lose their jobs because of it either.

     Even though the article is not about global warming: I went to see Al Gore's movie with coworkers from the lab I used to work in(it was shown for free). I went to sleep. I was a little ashamed because I do have a degree in chemistry but it was boring. Maybe he should have let the History Channel do the movie.

     About Sean Penn: I still don't get why people care about what he says or does especially if you don't agree with him. Why waste your time? Everyone knows he's not an expert. I will say he knows about conditions of other countries better than I because I have not gone to the same places he has. I wish I did have the time to give a crap about Sean Penn and global warming but at this time I'm trying to hold on to my job. I don't have the luxury of worrying about people and things that don't affect my life in particular. Sorry. I will say that Sean Penn is a great actor although his voice is nothing in comparison to Orson Welles. Is Sean Penn the only person who travels to different countries for non-acting reasons? With all the press that goes his way, it seems like it.

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 2:08pm

142. Additionally, it is ironic, because you and I both know that I paid more taxes last year than you paid in the last decade - and more of my money went to policies you favor - such as wars of aggression - than to those I favor such as better education and healthcare.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 2:04pm

     Well, you could willing earn less as I chose to do.

     Also, the point is irrelevant. I paid more in taxes each year in the 1980's than you probably paid last year. And I had to pay for all kinds of unconstitutional domestic spending.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:08pm

143. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:20pm

     "That is hardly representative of a democratic process."

     Maybe that's the clue. The Nation is a business, a non-profit business but still a business. It's not a democratic process. You don't get to spray paint your slogans on the side of their buildings or scare away their customers just because you don't like them - and the owners have every right to toss you out on your hind end when you start scaring away their customers.

     The only regretable thing is they don't do a more competent job of it by developing a moderation system that would ultimately bury the sizable majority of your commentary that is useless and provide you with some kind of incentive to post something interesting - via a Slashdot-like karma system.

     Unfortunately, since they are a non-profit without the deep pockets for that kind of development (although they could have just used Slashcode and got it for free if they had someone with some expertise in how to set it up and maintain it), they are left with a diseased pre-1995 bulletin board that allows people like John Maash and yourself to continue driving away their customer base.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 2:15pm

144. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:08pm

     Let's see:

     LVL: "All they know is that they want someone else to pay for their healthcare, housing, food, education, transportation, and retirement."

     SRJ: "...you and I both know that I paid more taxes last year than you paid in the last decade..."

     LVL: "...Well, you could willing earn less as I chose to do...Also, the point is irrelevant."

     So, you accuse "leftists" of wanting someone else to pay for social goods, and when it is pointed out that there are leftist that pay orders of magnitude more taxes than you do and implicitly, funding these services not only for themselves but for others, it is suddenly irrelevent.

     You see, it is most relevent. It also shows how little "debate" you bring to the table. Your arguments are weak, sad and sloppy. Combined with you penchant for absurd assertions, anything from your Chicken Little fears over communism and Islam to your assertions that the Bush administration prosecuted X number of people on terrorism charges - which like many of your assertions can be shown as false after a non-trivial amount of effort, you basically offer up an obstruction to actual debate.

     Isn't about time you rode off to Townhall.com or some other place?

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 2:28pm

145. When it comes to the less-than-agreeable visitors here, I think some measure of compassion is in order. They have to find the inspiration to visit, day after day, despite the country's near-wholesale rejection of the policies they support. That cannot be easy.

     Plus, life under a bridge generally means no electricity, and weak broadband signals. That can make it very difficult to re-register with new log-in names.

     Or design rockets.

     Posted by drhammer at 02/23/2009 @ 2:30pm

146. As I stated earlier, contrary to SRJ's assertion, Milk is a box office failure. It ranks 98th in Box office receipts. It has only played in 882 theatres whereas the average in 08 is over 3000. Milk's budget is listed at 20 million and with foreign receipts, it is now barely profitable at 36 million.

     For comparison, Slum Dog Millionaire opened 2 weeks prior to Milk. It's box office is 3x that of Milk and ranked 29th. Slum Dog was made for 15 million and with foreign receipts is at 159 million.

     Stark contrast and one that shows that viewers seem to know more than the leftist PC crowd and Hollywood.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:31pm

147. "Libs go beserk over the thought of corporate CEO salaries - how come they do not seem to care about the income of the leftist Hollywood actors and actresses such as Sean Penn?

     What do you libs have to say about that?"

     Sean Penn has not devalued my life savings, then asked to be bailed out with my tax dollars. If he is wealthy, it's because people willing paid money to see him display his craft.

     Your analogy, frankly, sucks.

     Posted by drhammer at 02/23/2009 @ 2:35pm

148. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 1:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 1:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Both have a point, and both are wrong. I have been coming to this site for years and the vitriol coming from both sides of the spectrum seems to be getting worse. From LVL, Maasch, Rio and Happy (and others) insulting liberals at every pass to the insults hurled by darla and hsuB (and others) at conservatives it is getting harder and harder to find real debate on this site. Even Frosty the Zen Master has gotten into the antogonistic mix, culimnating with an entirely unfair ass ripping from KVH (eventhough he was agreeing with her) because he was satirically impersonating a typical conservative response.

     Maybe the daily posters here need to take a break for a few weeks and argue on TPM or Mother Jones.

     I would also note that the discourse started to get worse after David Corn moved on.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 2:44pm

149. Isn't about time you rode off to Townhall.com or some other place?

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 2:28pm

     All you have to do is put me on ignore. That's called choice and liberty.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:46pm

150. I would also note that the discourse started to get worse after David Corn moved on.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 2:44pm

     That's an interesting observation; I hadn't considered it, but I think you're right. Now, what is the conclusion as to why?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:48pm

151. Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 2:44pm

     You are correct, sir(or ma'am)!

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 2:49pm

152. That's an interesting observation; I hadn't considered it, but I think you're right. Now, what is the conclusion as to why?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:48pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     My thoughts,

     John Nichols' postings are more inane than those of Corn. A post about the importance of Sean Penn? I don't think, and I could be wrong, that Corn would have started a conversation about such a silly topic. This creates a certain dismissiveness from conservatives and some liberals jump in with idealogical musings backing up the silliness of the post. This then begins the death spiral into useless banter.

     Another thing that contributes is the familiarity of the posters. For example, I can read your posts and know that you are LVL regardless of the nick. You have had so many arguments with various posters that have descended into insulting language that it has become easier and easier to do so. I remember reading thought provoking posts about a number of topics and seeing a passionate, sometimes infuriating, discussion between people of differing view points. But now it seems like the discussion is constantly being framed as "stupid libs" and "evil conservative ticks".

     The environment has become too stifling.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 3:02pm

153. Stark contrast and one that shows that viewers seem to know more than the leftist PC crowd and Hollywood.

     Republicans, Libertarians and those of their ilk have their own PC agenda to promote and propagate, so cool it with the only PCs are leftists argument.

     Posted by boing007 at 02/23/2009 @ 3:09pm

154. Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 3:02pm

     A thoughtful post and some well reasoned conclusions.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 3:23pm

155. LvL

     Remember back in the seventies, when evangelicals & other street roving, admonishing, barking, "Christians" were verbally assaulting people around public places.

     I had indulged one these Charlton Heston wannabes & his tone had softened the next time I saw him in front of the library. He recognized me, & I couldn't help but notice his aggressive stance toward those who brushed him off.

     A couple months later I saw him with a dandy shiner. Someone had busted his chops big time. We exchanged pleasantries & not one word of religion!

     But how to deal with a masochist like LvL?

     Posted by Sorelish at 02/23/2009 @ 3:55pm

156. Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

     SJ, WHY is the United States the rightful home of Elian Gonzales?

     (so I can keep it for our next illegal immigration debate....heheh)

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 4:10pm

157. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:31pm

     By what criteria does making an 80% return on an independent political film constitute failure? And what sense does it make to compare Slumdog and Milk? Taking the outlier and pretending that is somehow normal is bad reasoning. It's akin to talking about The Reader vs. The Dark Knight. Apples and oranges.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:46pm

     You see, that's simply avoiding the problem, namely - The Tragedy of the Commons. Yes, I could (and do for the most part) ignore you and the others. I've got an ignore list that is nearing three digits, but it ultimately doesn't address the fact that there is precious little of what I used to come here for, namely - as BizarroRio put it:

     "I remember reading thought provoking posts about a number of topics and seeing a passionate, sometimes infuriating, discussion between people of differing view points. But now it seems like the discussion is constantly being framed as "stupid libs" and "evil conservative ticks"."

     And you will have noticed that the break he recommends, I've taken. My posts here have dramatically fallen over the last few weeks, ever since I had that discussion with Thrawn about originalism. While that was among the more interesting exchanges, it still wasn't anywhere near as good, as say the discussion about nuclear weapons, we had as little as a year ago.

     Much of that is due to a complete lack of respect for other people's point of view, the name calling and the juvenile framing that passes as discourse these days.

     But rather than just leaving for any duration, I wanted to raise the issue, and see whether you just wanted to pretend it's not an issue (hey, you can just ignore me) or whether we are willing to do something about it.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 4:30pm

158. Remember back in the seventies, when evangelicals & other street roving, admonishing, barking, "Christians" were verbally assaulting people around public places.

     I had indulged one these Charlton Heston wannabes & his tone had softened the next time I saw him in front of the library. He recognized me, & I couldn't help but notice his aggressive stance toward those who brushed him off.

     A couple months later I saw him with a dandy shiner. Someone had busted his chops big time. We exchanged pleasantries & not one word of religion!

     But how to deal with a masochist like LvL?

     Posted by Sorelish at 02/23/2009 @ 3:55pm |

     I have no idea what you're talking about. I never saw any Evangelicals verbally assaulting anyone in the 70's. And I add that I wasn't serving Christ back then, so it's hardly my being defensive.

     What on earth kind of "verbal assault" are you speaking of?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 4:33pm

159. drhammer,

     About analogies, remember, people are free to purchase or not purchase all products or services in a free market in a free society.

     Thus, people willingly have paid money for anything, including their homes, or investments, or any other good or service they may have in their possession or partook of.

     Since this is a free country, people are not forced to buy anything they do not want to buy.

     So my question is valid, instead of answering it you just declared it not valid. (you said it sucks)

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 4:37pm

160. Oh, and one other point Happy. You are aware this website is called "The Nation"? That's a publication that has a slightly left slant to its coverage.

     Think of it this way. When you invite someone over to your home for a conversation, it is generally considered rude to use their kitchen as toilet. And here, you're the guest. Do us the favor and stop befouling the forum.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 1:09pm

     I see lots of postings on this thread and my early (and still very few) posting calling Penn ugly and stupid....led to all the tongue-lashing???

     How is that possible.....when this site has specialized calling Bush, and basically all Cons, blogging here and the universe at large, dumb and stupid (maybe not "ugly"....certainly NOT applicable to me, in any case, herhehe).

     As Liberty told you, if you feel the need, "ignore" away and take a break....I think you need it!

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 4:42pm

161. What on earth kind of "verbal assault" are you speaking of?----Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 4:33pm

     Just keep in mind that LVLIB will say that calling homosexuals "sexual perverts" isn't insulting (certaining not "judging") merely an "opinion"!

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 4:50pm

162. Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 2:06pm

     SJ, would you like to know why Elian was shipped back to Cuba? Because that is the law. Some time back republicans said kids should be with their parents, not raised by The State or told by The State who should raise them. His father, good or bad, decided he wanted to raise his own son, along with his new wife. DARIN has given us some stats on kids raised outside of a two parent family, maybe you should take it up with his group.

     Who are you to say that Janet Reno should overrule the father when there is no direct threat to the child? Last I saw, Elian looked healthy, albeit getting brainwashed. I see no difference between that and some of the fundies that show up at my door with their kids in tow quoting scripture and telling me the Earth is 6000 years old and is going to be soon awash in dead Jews, atheists and those that are not "real" Christians.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:00pm

163. how, exactly, would immigrants "bend it"? what can immigrants legally do to our institutions which can somehow destroy that which you cherish?

     Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:39pm

     Darla,

     In The Netherlands, a groupd of Muslims protested the cartoons and set off riot and basically got away with diminishing freedom of the press.

     They don't have to be "legal" actions if the ruling elite are afraid to hold them accountable to the same standards as the assimilated population.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:11pm

164. there is a thing called 'freedom of religion'. and civilized countries respect that freedom.

     Posted by darladoon at 02/22/2009 @ 11:41pm

     But if the unassimilated immigrants become a majority and they don't respect freedom of religion, they can democratically change the laws and impose their will on the minority.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:13pm

165. Posted by comancheamerican at 02/22/2009 @ 11:46pm

     Rio, the 47 million uninsured figure includes all Americans who go without insurance for any period during the year. So if you change jobs and get sick in between, you can purchase COBRA and get far more back in benefits than you pay in premiums. And if you don't get sick during the job switch, you aren't stupid enough to sigh up for COBRA so it doesn't cost you anything.

     It's been about six years since I switched companies. But in 2003, my family was four of the 40 million even though I paid taxes on over $150,000 that year. Boo hoo, feel sorry for me, I didn't have health insurance for 6 days.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:19pm

166. What on earth kind of "verbal assault" are you speaking of?----Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 4:33pm

     "AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals"

     "The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country"

     "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being"

     -- Jerry Falwell

     ---

     "Eskimo: "If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?"

     Priest: "No, not if you did not know."

     Eskimo: "Then why did you tell me?""-Anne Dillard

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:23pm

167. "But if the unassimilated immigrants become a majority and they don't respect freedom of religion, they can democratically change the laws and impose their will on the minority.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:13pm

     "Democracy is messy," Rumsfeld

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:25pm

168. "You are tempted by three idols that do not tempt us. One is affluence, ... Another is power, ... The third is technology,

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 02:15am

     There is a lot to reflect upon in your post, but I must point out that virtue must be chosen through free will. One deserves no moral credit for being robbed and having the robber give your money to the poor.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:28pm

169. Just keep in mind that LVLIB will say that calling homosexuals "sexual perverts" isn't insulting (certaining not "judging") merely an "opinion"!

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 4:50pm

     Again, I don't remember ever seeing Evangelicals on the streets verbally attacking anyone including homosexuals in the 70's.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 5:30pm

170. crabwalk,

     Yes, in a free society such as ours kids certainly should be with their parents.

     You remember, however, in this case it meant taking Elian from his home at gunpoint and shipping him to a communist gulag where he is stuck for the rest of his life, unless Cuba can get rid of the communism.

     So we are talking apples and oranges here.

     And you have it backwards - the state DID say who should raise Elian Gonzales - the state (the Clinton administration) dictated that Elian Gonzales would be raised away from his home, by his father, in a communist gulag.

     By the way, Mask, don't bother storing this for your file for an illegal immigration debate - Elian's mother was fleeing a communist gulag, she was seeking asylum against oppression in a communist gulag.

     People coming across the border do not fit that category, and you know it.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 5:36pm

171. Another typo here!!

     I meant People coming across the border FROM MEXICO do not fit that category.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 5:37pm

172. Wasn't Penn right about Iraq's lack of WMDs? And the guys on your side wrong about that?

     Posted by Mask at 02/23/2009 @ 10:12am

     But was Penn right about the number of Iraqi civilians buried in mass graves. Did he guess more or less than 300,000?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:38pm

173. Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

     -Paul [I Corinthians 14:34-35]

     The natural and proper timidity and delicacy which belongs to the female sex evidently unfits it for many of the occupations of civil life....The paramount destiny and mission of women are to fulfill the noble and benign office of wife and mother. This is the law of the Creator.

     -Supreme Court, 1873, upholding an Illinois law which prohibited women from becoming attorneys

     Damn femiNazis and their activist judges have overturned the will of He That Must Be Obeyed.

     Sorry, I digress at a quote site.

     -----

     I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them. What a happy day that will be!

     -Rev. Jerry Falwell (1979)

     I don't know that Atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God.

     -President George H. W. Bush (the First), during an August 27, 1987 interview by Rob Sherman

     Evolution is a bankrupt speculative philosophy, not a scientific fact. Only a spiritually bankrupt society could ever believe it. ... Only atheists could accept this Satanic theory.

     -Jimmy Swaggart (former pop preacher)

     Feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

     -Pat Robertson

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:40pm

174. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     A better number to show the need for reform would be the 18,000-22,000 American deaths due to lack of coverage. We are too great of a nation to sit by while tens of thousands die due to a lack regular, prevantive care.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 5:40pm

175. Treat your meat...

     A man can have sex with animals such as sheep, cows, camels and so on. However he should kill the animal after he has his orgasm. He should not sell the meat to the people in his own village, however selling the meat to the next door village should be fine.

     -Ayatollah Khomeini, Tahrirolvasyleh, fourth volume, Darol Elm, Gom, Iran, 1990.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:41pm

176. 152. That's an interesting observation; I hadn't considered it, but I think you're right. Now, what is the conclusion as to why?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:48pm 300,000?

     That is interesting. I enjoyed Nichols much more when Corn was here. It seems to me Corn was the fire breathing Minister of Propaganda, and Nichols was much more– Positive?

     Nichols was doing the human interest storie about this couragous person he admired and why.

     Since Corn left, Nichols has had to do the heavy lifting of selling the propaganda, and there aren't any here-are-the-positive-reasons-I-like-this-liberal-thing articles.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 5:56pm

177. I understand your point but I disagree. My opinion is the child should have been with his father. I know many did not approve of where his father wanted to raise him but that's not our call. It's his father's call. Elian was not taken from his home in Florida. His home was in Cuba. His mother decided to take him with her away from home. While her actions may be deemed noble, her unfortunate death doesn't negate the rights of the father, IMO.

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 5:56pm

178. Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 5:36pm

     If memory serves, it was his uncles home he was taken from, using a warrant authorized by the law at the time, which said children should be raised by their parents. A law championed by republicans and backed by the supreme court.

     Also, according to the law, his feet were wet when he got here, he gets sent back.

     He was sent back to his home, the home of his father.

     This is along the lines of "marriage is a sanctified union between a man and a woman. But, Bill Frist should decide the fate of a woman he has never met, from the floor of congress".

     Sometimes ideology comes back to bite us in the ass, like using a thug like Saddam to fight Iran. Right DARIN? What time period did Saddam kill the most people?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:57pm

179. This is along the lines of "marriage is a sanctified union between a man and a woman. But, Bill Frist should decide the fate of a woman he has never met, from the floor of congress". Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:57pm

     Funny. I was thinking of Bill Frist, too. Man, he made himself look like a dick and to add insult to injury the woman's brain had shrunk. I felt bad for the family but Frist should have never got involved.

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 6:01pm

180. In regards to the lady involved, I think my previous post was in poor taste. Apologies.

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 6:03pm

181. By what criteria does making an 80% return on an independent political film constitute failure?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 2:46pm

     The economics of film, as I understand it, splits the "gate" 50/50 with the theater and production company. (That's why they "lower" the price of the ticket and charge $7 for popcorn. Theaters keep 100% of the popcorn fee.)

     So an 80% over the cost of production mean 180% total, but only 90% going to the production company. And that doesn't include the cost of advertising. And it doesn't recognize that some percentage of the gate goes to the star, director, producers, etc.

     But they do play games with the accounting. If film A has to give 20% to star, director, and producer, but Film B gives 40% to star, director and producer then the company shifts a bunch of fixed costs to Film B to gect bigger coverage from the star, director, and producer of Film B.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:04pm

182. Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:23pm

     You do realize Crab, that AIDs was undiscovered until the early 80's?

     2. Falwell never said that; it is another liberal/atheist urban myth.

     I agree with the statement, but Falwell never made it. If you die not having received Christ, your life is a failure because the penalty is eternal.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 6:06pm

183. The Dujail Massacre of 1982:

     The Barzani Clan Abductions of 1983:

     The al-Anfal Campaign: The worst human rights abuses of Hussein's tenure took place during the genocidal al-Anfal Campaign (1986-1989), in which Hussein's administration called for the extermination of every living thing--human or animal--in certain regions of the Kurdish north. All told, some 182,000 people--men, women, and children--were slaughtered, many through use of chemical weapons. The Halabja poison gas massacre of 1988 alone killed over 5,000 people. Hussein later blamed the attacks on the Iranians, and the Reagan administration, which supported Iraq in the Iran-Iraq War, helped promote this cover story.

     The Post-Uprising Massacres of 1991: In the aftermath of Operation Desert Storm, the United States encouraged Kurds and Shiites to rebel against Hussein's regime--then withdrew and refused to support them, leaving an unknown number to be slaughtered. At one point, Hussein's regime killed as many as 2,000 suspected Kurdish rebels every day. Some two million Kurds hazarded the dangerous trek through the mountains to Iran and Turkey, hundreds of thousands dying in the process.

     -----

     We have some logs in our retinas.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 6:07pm

184. DARIN has given us some stats on kids raised outside of a two parent family, maybe you should take it up with his group.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 5:00pm |

     Here's what I remember. I thought his mother and father wanted Elian in the US, but his mom died at sea, and his father was forced by Castro to say he wanted him back in Cuba.

     His mother gave her life for Elian's freedom. Reno pissed on his mother's life.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:09pm

185. Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 4:42pm

     It was a general comment - not specific to this thread. Your response to me is a good example of the problem. I can ignore you. I can ignore this site. Other people can do the same. But, it doesn't change the fact that you are not taking responsibility for your commentary and the impact it has on the quality of discourse. In information theory terms, you raise the signal-to-noise ratio.

     It isn't a bad thing, if people have the capability to filter out the noise - like the way Bayesian filtering works. But unfortunately, this forum has filtering capabilities that make Usenet look advanced in comparison - which means the posters have to take a bit more responsibility for what they post. I'm simply asking you to do that - not make excuses about who started it, who is the worse offender or whatever.

     The bottom line is you are part of the problem. The only question is whether you wish to be part of the solution.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/23/2009 @ 6:10pm

186. Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 6:06pm

     ahh, time frame is important when discussing verbal assaults?

     "I agree with the statement, but Falwell never made it. If you die not having received Christ, your life is a failure because the penalty is eternal."

     Up yours.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 6:10pm

187. A better number to show the need for reform would be the 18,000-22,000 American deaths due to lack of coverage. We are too great of a nation to sit by while tens of thousands die due to a lack regular, prevantive care.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 5:40pm

     An even better number is lifetimes lost.

     Surely we agree that the death of 20,000 5-year olds is worse than 20,000 90-year olds.

     Car accidents and alcohol kill much younger than smoking and obesity.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:17pm

188. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:09pm

     His dad had every opportunity to defect when he came to pick up his son.

     What I think you guys are saying is that it is the govts job to pick the living conditions of children, over the wishes of the parent, right?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 6:17pm

189. Posted by crabwalk at 02/23/2009 @ 6:10pm

     If you see a man drowning, do you toss them a lifeline or walk the other way?

     If you toss the man a lifeline and he refuses it, are you still responsible for whether he lives or dies?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/23/2009 @ 6:18pm

190. My opinion is the child should have been with his father. I know many did not approve of where his father wanted to raise him but that's not our call. It's his father's call.

     Posted by k330k at 02/23/2009 @ 5:56pm

     The conservative commentators at the time made the point that no-person could know what the father's wishes were because he was not free to speak his mind.

     Personally, I don't doubt the father wanted to raise him rather than his ex-wife's (they were divorced) relatives, but how can we be sure?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:21pm

191. Of course the child belonged to the father! Who has a better claim than a blood parent? What a farce the right made of that one.

     Posted by FDR43 at 02/23/2009 @ 7:05pm

192. you are ALL missing the main point to be made with reference to Sean Penn; that being, he peaked in the role of Jeff Spicoli................

     Posted by unaorr at 02/23/2009 @ 7:47pm

193. crabwalk,

     You asked ".........What I think you guys are saying is that it is the govts job to pick the living conditions of children, over the wishes of the parent, right?........."

     Basically, that seems to be what the left promotes here in the United States these days, if not always then at least way more often that it should be.

     It is only when circumstances are that the child gets to be shipped off to Utopia (or the Workers Paradise, or a People's Democracy or whatever it is that Fidel calls his gulag), that the left lines up behind a parents' rights and that it is good that a kid is raised by his parents.

     Crabwalk, you are the one who said above that ideology bites us in the ass -- I should save some of these comments by leftists promoting parent's rights (like Mask saves comments) and present them the next time a case comes up on this site regarding parents' rights vs the government.

     Also, since when is Elian Gonzales being raised by his Dad? He lives with his Dad, but for all intents and purposes Elian is being raised by Fidel!

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 8:47pm

194. Ever since God made gays by accident, he's been cranking out super humans such as Limbaugh and his stem cell spin offs, Maaash, Larry, fake-Happy, etc., to make up for it.

     Every Sunday they honor him. By waking up, logging on and looking for a fight.

     Penn atomizes all these punks with zero effort or notice.

     Posted by winyahn at 02/23/2009 @ 10:40pm

195. Penn atomizes all these punks with zero effort or notice.

     Posted by winyahn at 02/23/2009 @ 10:40pm

     Careful, making feel too young!

     Penn is still the ugliest and stupidest! And Rush makes far more $$!

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:45pm

196. missing "me"...LOL!

     Man, I'm loving the Magic Disaster!

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:46pm

197. Christians are already disrespected, and worse, by every Leftists & Islamists in this country AND the world over.

     Posted by Happy at 02/23/2009 @ 10:42am

     don't forget israel:

     http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1065918.html

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 11:13pm

198. Even Frosty the Zen Master has gotten into the antogonistic mix, culimnating with an entirely unfair ass ripping from KVH (eventhough he was agreeing with her) because he was satirically impersonating a typical conservative response.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 2:44pm

     no, i wasn't being satirical.

     i was truly shocked at the amount of money spent on the inauguration.

     (but thanks for the zen master -- lol)

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/23/2009 @ 11:32pm

199. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 02/23/2009 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Uhh, sure I think we can agree. I fail to see the relevance though.

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/23/2009 @ 11:50pm

200. LVL,

     For the record, I am pretty sure I have directed my share of vitriol...I am sure Mask can find several qoutes of me being an a--hole, just commenting that insults are coming earlier and more often than they used to.

     Later

     Posted by BizarroRio at 02/24/2009 @ 12:22am

201. i bet you still watch reagan's "movies" even after he sold weapons

     (i wonder if he sold any larryclusterbombs -- you'll say he didn't, but i bet you're wrong)

     to the MULLAHS OF IRAN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

     Posted by frosty zoom

     Well, come on! We're talking Bedtime for Bonzo!

     Reagan + chimpanzee = Comedy gold!

     Posted by koroviev at 02/24/2009 @ 12:43am

202. Posted by sjchermak at 02/23/2009 @ 8:47pm

     What do you call our gulag in Cuba?

     GITMO

     Gulag in Afghanistan?

     Bagram.

     Squawk all you wish SJ, you use many of the same tactics as Castro now, for the same reason, fear.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 07:54am

203. crabwalk,

     Leave it to a lib to compare prisons where terrorists who want to kill us are kept with an entire nation where Fidel keeps all his people trapped in socialist benevolance and glory.

     Also, many of you on the left keep mentioning this "fear" thing. Brunowe is great at this.

     If we do anything, or seek to do anything, about enemies who want to kill us, we are afraid.(so sayeth the left).

     The left of course, is not afraid! That is because the left knows that no one means us harm unless it is "justified" because we have made them angry to begin with!

     But, it seems to me, that NOT doing something about enemies that want to kill us would NOT demonstrate a lack of fear.... it WOULD demonstrate gross stupidity or naive pacifist leftist belief.

     Besides, how are conservatives that want to kick terrorists' asses exhibiting fear?

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 08:30am

204. Mask at @ 09:03am said:

     >> Wow....so Harvey Milk and gay rights is the equivalent of Hitler and Nazism? ....heheh <<

     Shameful!

     Which is why you need a mask.

     Or is it a gas mask, because you can't stand your own stink.

     Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/24/2009 @ 08:39am

205. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/24/2009 @ 08:39am

     Fortunately, polling shows that guys like you are going the way of the T-rex as the K-T comet closes in on the Yucatan.

     Even younger EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS are less concerned, even supportive of gay rights.

     Another few years, simple attrition gets rid of dinosaurs like you.

     Posted by Mask at 02/24/2009 @ 09:55am

206. Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 08:30am

     Everybody in Gitmo is a terrorist, SJCHER?

     (No, he can't answer it directly. Say "Yes" and he has to explain why so many were released...by BUSH!

     Say "No" and he just contradicted this - "compare prisons where terrorists who want to kill us are kept")

     Posted by Mask at 02/24/2009 @ 09:58am

207. Leave it to a lib to compare prisons where terrorists who want to kill us are kept with an entire nation where Fidel keeps all his people trapped in socialist benevolance and glory. "-SJ

     answer MASK.

     Those people locked up in Castros Gulag in violation of basic human rights, are considered a threat to the power structure of Cuba. I find it reprehensible, but using the logic of you and Bush, what is the problem with Castro locking down people he thinks are a threat? Isn't that what you are doing? Isn't that what Obama wants to (maybe) continue?

     Isn't that why Mr. Arar was kidnapped and sent to Syria?

     ---

     I am interested in your take on the difference between allowing Elian to be indoctrinated by Castro, according to his fathers wishes, and Americans indoctrinating their kids into a Rapture belief, teaching them that the Earth is about 6000 years old and into telling me that my life is an utter failure if I do not accept Christ (and engage in ritual cannabilism). Does The State have a responsibility to take these kids away from their parents to "save" them?

     I find Castro to be a thug and dictator. What does that do to your preconceived notions about me SJ?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 10:50am

208. Fortunately, polling shows that guys like you are going the way of the T-rex as the K-T comet closes in on the Yucatan.

     Even younger EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS are less concerned, even supportive of gay rights.

     Another few years, simple attrition gets rid of dinosaurs like you.

     Posted by Mask at 02/24/2009 @ 09:55am

     truth always seems to disappear when moral clarity becomes fogged with rationalizations and compromise.

     I've stated often that when a civilization begins to stray from it's moral base, it breaks down as a civilization and history shows that it's very existence becomes numbered. As with Greece and Rome, so the US will fall as a nation because morality is no longer a core principle. Instead perversions and self seeking are becoming not only not condemned, they are celebrated.

     We "dinosaurs" will not miss being part of the degenerate future. but I grieve for those who will have to live in the environment of moral filth that grows with each passing year.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 10:54am

209. SJ, what is your take on Most Favored Nation trading status for the worlds largest communist country?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:00am

210. LUVVY, do you find sexual activities to be more of a moral outrage than unfettered greed?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:03am

211. SJ, what is your take on Most Favored Nation trading status for the worlds largest communist country?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:00am

     Not answering for SJ, but for me, China never should have been granted it. Your buddy Clinton pushed hard for that.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 11:03am

212. I've stated often that when a civilization begins to stray from it's moral base, it breaks down as a civilization and history shows that it's very existence becomes numbered.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 10:54am | ignore this person | warn this person

     .

     I've stated often that a civilzation's 'moral base' breaks down when it get's hijacked by those who pervert it by injecting their own arrogance and hypocrisy.

     Like opposing abortion because your moral 'standard' is the **sanctity of life** - but then supporting the death penalty, unjust wars, and nuking a few billion Chinese.

     It's pretty hard to rally folks around a 'moral standard'...

     ...that's been so badly stained.

     Posted by Lillian at 02/24/2009 @ 11:27am

213. Not answering for SJ, but for me, China never should have been granted it. Your buddy Clinton pushed hard for that.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 11:03am

     I am aware that we agree on this, I asked SJ for his opinion.

     Clinton was never "my buddy". I activly opposed him in the dem party primaries, it was the inciting reason for me leaving the dem party structure.

     Taken in context, that sounds like you are bringing false witness against me, accusing me of wrongdoing, ie: supporting Clinton. Sholud you put aside the evil within you?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:27am

214. Your buddy Clinton pushed hard for that.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 11:03am

     more like greenspan pushed clinton.

     gotta hide the inflation somehow.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 11:37am

215. Could not an argument be made that the moral "base" of the US was slavery, genocide and the subjagation of women? We have moved far from that, yet here we are, still kickin ass.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:41am

216. Top o the morn to ya, Frosty!

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:42am

217. LUVVY, do you find sexual activities to be more of a moral outrage than unfettered greed?

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 11:03am

     No...and apologies for the Clinton comment; I stand corrected.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 11:59am

218. Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 10:54am

     So rather than even CONCEIVE that you might be wrong....

     you have to have civilization collapse?

     LOL

     Posted by Mask at 02/24/2009 @ 12:02pm

219. Ok, maybe he peaked in TAPS.....Spicoli required him to inhale, while he was a statue in the former.

     Posted by unaorr at 02/24/2009 @ 12:15pm

220. We "dinosaurs" will not miss being part of the degenerate future. but I grieve for those who will have to live in the environment of moral filth that grows with each passing year.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 10:54am

     but you are responsible for the deaths of many, many children.

     you may have already cornered the market on filth.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 12:29pm

221. hi crabs!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 12:36pm

222. So rather than even CONCEIVE that you might be wrong....

     you have to have civilization collapse?

     LOL

     Posted by Mask at 02/24/2009 @ 12:02pm

     I'm not wrong about the moral breakdown of America.

     I will back it up...next post

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 12:49pm

223. No...and apologies for the Clinton comment; I stand corrected.

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 11:59am

     accepted.

     SO, could I make a case that unfettered greed has gotten us into this economic recession? Greed from the top guys that reaped tens of millions ($3.7 billion in the case of one good bet by a hedge fund manager who bet against the US system)in payment for structuring the house of cards, greed from realtors and mortgage salesman and greed from homebuyers who were only interested in seeing their home price exceed their ability to pay.

     If you accept that case, wouldn't it be more appropriate for our leaders to be preaching against greed with far more gusto than they preach against homosexuality or promescuity? I am having a difficult time remembering when I saw someone on TV saying that greed was a moral outrage and we Americans need to get that under control. Versus the myriad comments about sex.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 1:09pm

224. If you accept that case, wouldn't it be more appropriate for our leaders to be preaching against greed with far more gusto than they preach against homosexuality or promescuity? I am having a difficult time remembering when I saw someone on TV saying that greed was a moral outrage and we Americans need to get that under control. Versus the myriad comments about sex.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 1:09pm

     As a pastor, I would say no. In my ministry capacity, I am equal opportunity with all forms of sin/moral failing.

     One significan difference with your comparison to be pointed out though, is that I don't hear anyone extolling greed as a laudable or acceptable behavior. No one is picketing the streets or attacking others for not accepting their greed and avarice. No one is saying, "yes I cheated others, but I'm just as good as anyone else".

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 1:27pm

225. crabwalk,

     You said "............I find Castro to be a thug and dictator. What does that do to your preconceived notions about me SJ?.........."

     I stand corrected, crabwalk, in terms of applying preconceived notions to you.

     I fall into this trap all of the time, but it is easy to do. I am on a far leftist website, with many far leftists making commentary, and in my commentary back to different bloggers on wide varieties of subjects I tend to "label" them as leftists, and assume they believe in the complete set of liberal belief.

     But not everybody may be 100% leftist on all things, so when I do this it eventually is pointed out to me.

     I will point out, though, that this line of conversation was started by me, injecting Elian Gonzales into the mix, in response to a long forgotted blogger way up above who was extolling the virutes of Fidel's education and health care systems.

     Somehow, we wound up off to Gitmo, because you put us there, and I see no basis for comparison between a prison where terrorist murders are kept because they want to kill people who live in freedom and democracy.... and Cuba as a nation, which is a prison where people are kept in communist gulag with no freedom, lousy education and health care, no hope nor opportunity, in awe of their leader Fidel who they think is providing for them.

     I brought out points that have gone unresponded by bloggers on this site, such as the comparison between MRI machines in Pittsburgh versus those in Cuba, and comparison between living in this country where kids can learn from the Bus versus Cuba where kids can not do that.

     Cuba comes out way below par on these comparisons - everybody here knows that and thus have not responded, because they know it is true.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 1:50pm

226. And as far as the Bus goes, I will bring out other learning available from Steelers or former Steelers, and how that learning is for sure unavailable in Cuba.

     How about the subject of the book "Quiet Strength", by Tony Dungy?

     Where does Tony Dungy enter into this? He was coach of the World Champion Indianapolis Colts 2 years ago.

     But.... early in his career... he was an assistant coach for Chuck Noll of the PITTSBURGH STEELERS. (Who play in a city where there are more MRI machines than in all of Canada, much less Cuba).

     Coach Dungy's book is only tangentially about football, because that has been his profession. It is about faith and how to live your life in a good way, and lessons one can learn from life, and about Coach Dungy's relationship with God.

     WHOOPS!!! There it is! That gets Coach Dungy's book off of the list of reading material Fidel provides for the "workers" and the "people" in his Utopia and Workers' Paradise he is operating 90 miles away from Florida.

     If the Cuban education system is so great, as the blogger touted way up above on this thread, then why can't kids in Cuba learn from Jerome Bettis (the Bus) or Coach Dungy?

     (Just trying to get back to the original point rather than worrying about Gitmo, for now)

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 1:58pm

227. gitmo is cuban land the u.s. has stolen.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 3:10pm

228. SJ, you walk a very, very fine line in order to keep your morals.

     Posted by crabwalk at 02/24/2009 @ 3:13pm

229. crabwalk,

     I am not sure about that....

     It is kind of blantantly obvious that when we talk about the terrorist darlings that want to kill us who are in Gitmo....

     and then when we talk about the imprisonment of all of the Cuban people in a Worker's Paradise where there are less MRI machines than in Pittsburgh and where kids do not know who the Bus is or who Coach Dungy is, much less be able to learn from them and become capable adults.....

     WE ARE TALKING TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT SUBJECTS.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 3:26pm

230. frosty zoom,

     1. In your view of the world, is the United States in possession of ANY land at all that is not deemed to be "stolen"?

     2. You have just one entry of declared "wrong" by the U.S. here, but a couple of months ago you made posting after posting of lists of events in American history that I guess you determined were wrongs...... You are fixated on American wrong..... you I guess are a super-moral authority....

     3. If you are this super-moral authority of all that is correct and right that you claim to be... then do something positive.... go over the bridge to Detroit and do something productive to help somebody or some people out there... Detroit could use your help....just one thing productive to help Detroit would be more productive than all the negative Anti-American enlightment you constantly provide.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 3:30pm

231. gitmo is cuban land the u.s. has stolen.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 3:10pm

     So are treaties illegal documents in the Frosty world?

     Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 3:36pm

232. The 1903 Treaty that brought about the base at Guantanamo was invalid from the beginning, as it was imposed by force. After four years of military rule the United States decided against a complete annexation of Cuba, instead they wanted a system that would allow political and economic control, the answer was to grant Cuban independence under US terms.

     The US administration made it clear that there would be no Cuban constitution unless it included an appendix, known as the "Platt amendment" which demanded the right for US military intervention in Cuba and a naval base. Initially rejected in Cuba, the Platt amendment had also been unpopular in the US Senate, described by one Senator as an "ultimatum to Cuba", the Cuban government had no other choice but to yield to US pressure and agree to the lease if they wished to have any form of independence.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 3:43pm

233. Posted by antisocialist at 02/24/2009 @ 1:27pm

     In Catholic tradition, greed is among the cardinal sins - lust, gluttony, greed, sloth, wrath, envy and pride. Homosexuality and heterosexuality have equal claim to lust.

     I think crabwalk makes an interesting point about the focus of the religious establishment - on lust and subsets within it such as homosexual behavior, while nary a word about greed. Even to the point where some ministers have taken it to its logical conclusion and espouse a "Prosperity Gospel" that God favors the rich and prosperous in a clear perversion of the biblical message and contains elements of gluttony, envy, greed and pride within it.

     "I don't hear anyone extolling greed as a laudable or acceptable behavior."

     There are certainly elements - and perhaps the entire Properity Gospel notion - that extols greed as God's blessing.

     I know this is not where you are coming from, but it is definitely out there.

     Posted by srjenkins at 02/24/2009 @ 3:47pm

234. Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 3:30pm

     for the 17,654,345,789,346th time:

     the u.s. is great. much better than many, many countries.

     but saying the land in cuba was stolen is true.

     you didn't steal it. you didn't send rummy to help saddam. you didn't overthrow the governments of chile and iran. you didn't kill thousands of civilians in panama.

     you are just a pawn.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/24/2009 @ 3:48pm

235. frosty zoom,

     1. If the land was "stolen" from Cuba, so what? That happened, according to your information, in 1903. This is the year 2009.

     The problem now, in proximity to you, would be problems in Detroit in 2009. How does taking note of stolen land in 1903 help Detroit in 2009?

     I fully understand, in a free society, history is, and should be, an open book. I am not advocating we do not take note of stealing land from Cuba in 1903.

     And I know that you would say that we need to understand history in order to learn from it.. and that is true, absolutely.

     But one can overdo it, and you certainly overdo it.

     There are contexts to some of the events that happen in history. One of the ones that you leave out on some of your wrongs is that we were in a cold war with the Soviets for most of the last half of the 20th century.

     This explains, for example, why we gave Saddam support as he fought Iran. We had lost Iran as an ally due to the incompetent meddling of Mr. Peanut, the anti-semetic Jimmy Carter. Iran was an important ally in the region because of it's physical proximity to the Soviet Union. So we wound up leaning towards Saddam for a while... and do not forget that it was later events that established Saddam as a threat that needed to be stopped.

     The cold war was not of our making... and we were in a battle against people who wanted to communize us and take us over... this drove things to happen in our affairs with other countries and alliances with other countries that may have been different if there had been no Soviet threat.

     If you are to look at history, which one should, you need to look at all the history to put events in context.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 4:13pm

236. And Frosty, by the way, I have read Mr. Peanut's book, about "apartheid" and the Palestinians (as Mr. Peanut sees it), so when I say the anti-semetic Jimmy Carter, it is because he has demonstrated it to me with his own writings.

     It is a book that is fixated on wrongs he feels Israel is guilty of, while glossing over all the Palestinian wrong and wrong by the Arab / Islamic world with regard to the Middle East.

     Some people working for Mr. Peanut were angry after publication of that book, so it isn't just me.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 4:18pm

237. Mask at 02/24 @ 09:55am said:

     >> polling shows that guys like you are going the way of the T-rex as the K-T comet closes in on the Yucatan.<<

     What polling, and what guys like me?

     Where have I expressed resentment of homosexuals? Where do you come off implying I'm a homophobe?

     You are a zealot and demagogue in that you don't hesitate to smear me because I disagrees with you politically.

     Let me tell you what the polls say about pederasts. The public's loathing of guys like you is rising. That fear and terror is not receding and diminishing like fear of Thesaurus Rex, it is waxing. Deal with that you swine!

     You asked at 02/23 @ 09:05am :

     >> is the reason for all the vitrole from the Right towards Sean Penn because... HE was right about Iraq's WMDs and they weren't? heheh <<

     The right is disgusted by Penn's hobnobbing with dictators and bullies. He opposed a democratic govt fighting for its life against fascists and counseled withdrawal. His military experience told him it was unwinnable. He is a personal friend of Hugo Chavez. He admires Fidel and gets private interviews with Raul Castro.

     If Penn knew in advance that Iraq had no WMD, he knew more than the intelligence agencies of US, Russia, Britain, France, Italy, Israel etc. And more than Hans Blix who down to the eve of the invasion believed Saddam was hiding the stuff.

     But in fact, Penn was wrong. Iraq did have WMD, only, the brillian Saddam destroyed them in secret, and made sure no one knew it.

     Penn made rash declarations on Iraq much like the irresponsible blowhards who now assure us that Iran does not aspire to nuclear weapons. The only reason anyone listened to him was that he is a talented actor. Why his thespian skills should give his politics authority, beats me.

     Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 02/24/2009 @ 8:43pm

238. s...o when I say the anti-semetic Jimmy Carter, it is because he has demonstrated it to me with his own writings.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 4:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     While it is obvious you have no idea how to spell 'anti-Semitic', the question is whether or not you even understand the term.

     Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize in large part for brokering Isreal's first peace treaty with one of their Middle Eastern neighbors, Egypt. Do you think he did that because he is anti-Semitic?

     Considering your inane blatherings, it is obvious...

     ...you have no clue.

     (Big surprise there.)

     Posted by Lillian at 02/24/2009 @ 9:04pm

239. Lillian (Ljerk),

     Have you read Carter's book? If not, why not?

     If you did, you would see how one-sided he is. I guess I do have a clue. The clue is in the book, when Carter goes on and on and on and on about supposed wrongs against the Palestinians but glosses over all the wrong that has been committed against Israel over the years.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/24/2009 @ 11:11pm

240. Yes, SJerk, I read the book. It has many inacuracies, and points with which I don't agree, none of which makes it anti-Semitic.

     The fact you read it in no way indicates you have a clue about it.

     I asked a simple question - Carter won the Nobel Peace Prize in large part for brokering Isreal's first peace treaty with one of their Middle Eastern neighbors, Egypt. Do you think he did that because he is anti-Semitic?

     I noticed you couldn't answer it.

     Here's a simpler one - define what is anti-Semitic.

     Posted by Lillian at 02/24/2009 @ 11:45pm

241. guantanamo was stolen.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/25/2009 @ 02:59am

242. Lillian,

     The reason there was a peace treaty between Egypt and Israel is because of Anwar Sadat. Carter "brokered" it... but it did not happen because of him.

     Carter is not looking, as some are such as Iran's president, for Israel to be destroyed. He is anti-semetic but he is not in the category of people like the president of Iran or the person who led the nazis in the 1930's and 1940's.

     Carter says he wants peace in the Middle East and two states, Palestinian and Israeli.

     His glossing over of the continual (since 1948) attacks upon Israel means that Mr. Carter himself does not understand the real situation in the Middle East.

     His approach to the Middle East is very one sided, with all the "wrongs" that Israel is "guilty" of in his mind.

     He clearly has no concept that many of these situations Carter feels are wrong have come about only because Israel has continually been on the defensive, defending their country from extinction.

     This denial of reality by Carter does not help the cause of peace in the Middle East.

     An anti-Semite is a person who hates or strongly dislikes Jews. There is evidence in Carter's background, prior to being President, that he is not too fond of Jews. And he demonstrates this as President and after being President by seeing the Middle East situation through an anti-Semitic prism, that leads him to do things like obsess in his book about Israeli "wrongs" and gloss over Palestinian wrongs.

     Again, he does not advocate the extinction of Israel, he advocates peace, but he is not fond of Jews.

     You do present an element of truth in your comments when you say Carter's book has inaccuracies (lots of them) and points with which you don't agree.

     So there is hope for you yet.

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/25/2009 @ 08:44am

243. frosty zoom,

     You say: "...guantanamo was stolen...."

     I say: Who cares?

     I say: So What?

     I ask: Have you identified yet things you can do to help out in Detroit?

     I say: If you haven't yet then just get your ass over the bridge and find something, and stop obsessing about Gitmo.

     I ask: Or does Detroit not count because that was stolen from somebody also?

     Posted by sjchermak at 02/25/2009 @ 08:52am

244. guantánamo was stolen.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2009 @ 01:39am