What I Know About Jesse Jackson Jr.

A lot of assumptions are being made with regard to Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr.

The Democratic representative from Chicago is, after 13 years in the House, earning the sort of attention accorded congressional leaders and presidential contenders. Unfortunately, it comes in the context of the scandal that has exploded around Illinois Governor Rod Blagojevich.

Blagojevich stands accused of "hanging a 'for sale' sign" on the Senate seat being vacated by President-elect Barack Obama.

Jackson was as close as there was to a frontrunner in the competition for a gubernatorial appointment to the seat. He had been endorsed by the Chicago Sun-Times, the Chicago Defender and other newspapers, as well as Progressive Democrats of America and individual activists who had come to know him as a champion in the struggle for peace and economic and social justice.

Jackson says that, when he met with Blagojevich on the eve of the governor's arrest, they spoke about those endorsements and the congressman's record -- as well as his viability as a Democratic contender in the 2010 race to retain the seat. He denies that there was anything inappropriate about the discussion, and no evidence has surfaced to suggest that there was. But the fact of that meeting -- and speculation about the prospect that an as-yet-unnamed "emissary" had promised fund-raising assistance to Blagojevich if he made the son of the Rev. Jesse Jackson a senator -- has made Congressman Jackson almost as big a player in the scandal discussion as the governor.

A lot of writers are making assumptions about Jackson.

As someone who has known the man for many years and written about him in a number of political and policy-making settings, I won't do that.

Rather, I'll offer some facts, and some hopes.

First, the facts:

Since his election to the House in a 1995 special election, Jackson has compiled one of the most consistently progressive and reform-oriented records in the chamber. He has clashed not just with the Bush administration and its economic-royalist allies but with Democrats who have chosen to compromise with those interests. As such, he has cost himself politically. Jackson's stands on principle have made it harder for him to raise money and to attain the powerful positions that are apportioned to those who go along to get along

Jackson voted against authorizing President Bush to attack Iraq. But he went a lot further than that. He signed on for the lawsuit, filed by constitutional lawyer John Bonifaz, that argued Bush could not take the country to war without a full declaration from Congress.

Jackson voted against the Patriot Act. But he went a lot further than that. He joined then-Congressman Bernie Sanders, I-Vermont, to promote legislation to exempt libraries and bookstores from having to comply with unwarranted federal demands for the reading lists of citizens.

Jackson condemned the U.S. Supreme Court intervention in the case of Bush-v-Gore, which shut down the Florida recount and handed the presidency to George Bush. But he went a lot further than that. One year after the 2000 election, when most Democrats were frightened to say anything negative about Bush in the aftermath of the 9-11 attacks, Jackson stood in front of the Supreme Court to challenge the legitimacy of the decision that made Bush president and to say, "The disputes in Florida and other states showed us that we need one national standard for voting and one national standard for counting votes. But they also reminded us that there are more basic reforms that are needed… Even though the right to vote is the supreme right in a democracy, the Supreme Court in Bush v. Gore told Americans there is no explicit fundamental right to suffrage in the Constitution." And he proposed to amend the Constitution to establish that right, along with a right to have every vote counted in a verifiable manner.

Jackson condemned George Bush's free-trade agenda. But he went a lot further than that. He opposed free-trade deals promoted by former President Clinton and by Democratic leaders in the House. He even broke with leaders of the Congressional Black Caucus in 1998 to oppose the African Growth and Opportunity Act. AGOA, as that deal was known, was dubbed "NAFTA for Africa" by the business press. Condemned by South African President Nelson Mandela and Africa trade unions that saw it as a move to make it even easier for multinational corporations to exploit the continent's workers and resources, AGOA was described by Jackson as the "Africa Recolonization Act." During the House debate on the issue, Jackson pointed out that, "The AGOA extends short-lived trade 'benefits' for the nations of sub-Sahara Africa. In exchange for these crumbs from globalization's table, the African nations must pay a huge price: adherence to economic policies that serve the interests of foreign creditors, multinational corporations and financial speculators at the expense of the majority of Africans."

The congressman asked, "Whose interests will the AGOA advance? Look at the coalition promoting it -- a corporate who's who of oil giants, banking and insurance interests, as well as apparel firms seeking one more place to locate their low-paying sweatshops. Some of these corporations are already infamous in Africa for their disregard for the environment and human rights."

Does that sound like someone who is looking for an easy route to power? Like someone with lax ethics or a pay-to-play mentality?

Not to me.

And so I offer my hopes:

I hope Jesse Jackson Jr. gets a fair hearing over the coming days and weeks.

I hope that when the full truth is revealed he will be cleared.

I hope that he will be able to continue to serve in the House, and that he might eventually serve in the Senate.

Those hopes are based on what I know of Jesse Jackson Jr. and his service to the republic over the past 13 years -- a service that I am not prepared to disregard until I have seen convincing evidence that he has betrayed the public trust.

The mad rantings of Rod Blagojevich, and the mountain of speculation that has been built upon them, are making a lot of noise.

For now, however, Jackson's record argues more loudly for giving him the benefit of the doubt.

Comments (127)

1. His being black

   Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 12/13/2008 @ 9:48pm

   How does THAT mean he wants it badly? I mean I can see the others but this one doesn't make sense. I don't think he chose to be black so he could gain political points.

   Posted by Cccomfo1 at 12/13/2008 @ 10:03pm

2. Uhh, Happy, you DO know he is a sitting Congressman right? Which means he's won in an "open election" at least six times? And before this whole mishegas came down, was a popular Illinois figure in his own right?

   That being said, I'm afraid to name him, even if he is totally blameless, will bring up the smell of some sort of taint. About the only way Jackson could be perceived as legitimate is if Illinois does have the special election and Jackson wins fairly. If Quinn takes it upon himself to appoint Obama's replacement, it can't be anyone even rumored to be close to or even mentioned by Blagojevich. It's unfortunate, but I think Jackson will be fine in the House for awhile.

   Posted by yutsano at 12/13/2008 @ 11:11pm

3. Thanks are due to John Nichols. This article makes it very clear to me why the economic royalist propaganda press wants to convict Representative Jesse Jackson Jr. -- regardless of whether there's any evidence to convict him. Sure, it's partly because he's black -- but that's only the superficial reason. The real reason is: He's a threat to their power.

   I see "HappyLonghorn" already has his marching orders!

   Posted by JakobFabian at 12/13/2008 @ 11:28pm

4. Jackson Jr. voted for the $700 Bailout. How good can he really be. CAMPAIGN SPENDING LIMITS

   Posted by Gene Silvers at 12/14/2008 @ 12:48am

5. Jackson Jr. voted for the $700 Bailout. How good can he really be. CAMPAIGN SPENDING LIMITS

   Posted by Gene Silvers at 12/14/2008 @ 12:56am

6. Personally, I think Gov. B was using Jackson's name to pump up bribes from others, since he was known to have met with Jackson. I.E., in an effort to pump up bribe offers, of which it is not clear that he received any, he was saying that Jackson had offered such and such and saying, can you beat that offer.

   Gov. B was being so crass and extreme, if the wiretaps are accurate, that I am not sure that anyone actually took him up.

   I'm sure bribery goes on for Senate seats etc. in many ways, but the crudity of the offer, and the fact that B. was already under investigation, seems to rule out anything but that this was a case of suicide extortion. Fred

   Posted by ffeldman at 12/14/2008 @ 01:05am

7. I would rather have Jacksan as president elect! He is much more progressive than Obama!

   Reading the earlier article on "pragmatism"--how pragmatic! I am having trouble figuring out just what it is that The Nation stands for these days! You are "sick of pragmatism" and "fawning over Obama ad nauseum"--yeah? Well, me too!

   I cant imagine how I ever thought that The Nation was "progressive"! Oh, that's right--just like the Democrats and Obama--you never really said you were...how true! But, cheer up! I think you can look forward to an whole new audience---former neocconservatives turned neo-liberal!

   I just cant stand it anymore---sorry...

   Posted by kdelphi95 at 12/14/2008 @ 01:56am

8. Mr. Nichols, I hope you're right about JJ Jr--I have long respected him and have been appalled at the prospect that he got sucked into this. One unrelated question: what would happen if some white supremacist got to Obama before Jan. 20th? He wouldn't be covered by the Constitution's succession procedures, so what would we do? Who would decide on what?

   Posted by mimsky at 12/14/2008 @ 02:13am

9. The trouble with Jackson is he is part of the age old Chicago machine..corruption, fraud, bag men for the machine,election shennigans,victimhood,racist race bating,stealing, lying,endless protesting, grandstanding, wholesale extortion from corporations for "reparations",payoffs to pregnat women, unwed motherhood,child support, income from unknown sources, $3,000 suits for a preacher with no church, absolutely no end to the outrageousness and horseshit..free turkeys, style over substance..not enough room here to list...

   ....and this is just the father...

   Apples do not fall far from the tree...so the effort to make this the "black Senate seat" will no doubt be the end result...all part of Chicago machine...I am sure there was enough blackmail going on and demands to make JJJR the "one" the people "need",

   ..vomit.....

   I pray this never happens and the nation can be rid Jacksons types once and for all...

   but I doubt it, its like America stepped in something that can't be wiped off the shoes...

   Illinois deserves something they haven't had since Lincoln....an honest election with honest people who honestly give a shit about the people they live with and represent.

   Good thing Obama doesn't come from anywhere near the Chicago machine or its political system...4 years and out seems to be already setting itself up...

   I do hope he(Obama) has something all good Midwest farmers have near the door to the house...a scraper for the shoes...

   Posted by YourJomamma at 12/14/2008 @ 08:55am

10. I suspect that our little weasel had other motives in destroying Blagojevitch. Is this guy tied to Karl in any way? We know that Mr. Shifty let George and company off. I don't trust Fitzgerald, he sounds like a used car salesman.

    Posted by julien38 at 12/14/2008 @ 09:08am

11. Off topic, because I am going to hammer this into the ground? Why? Because the cons gave support to the Enemy.

    HAPPY strengthened Al Qaida

    Luvvy strengthened Al Qaida

    JOMAMMA strengthened Al Qaida

    RIOKORESH strengthened Al Qaida

    CHIP THORNTON strengthened Al Qaida

    DAVEB strengthened Al Qaida

    SJCHERMAK strengthened Al Qaida

    wapo:

    A bipartisan panel of senators has concluded that former defense secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and other top Bush administration officials bear direct responsibility for the harsh treatment of detainees at Guantanamo Bay, and that their decisions led to more serious abuses in Iraq and elsewhere.

    In the most comprehensive critique by Congress of the military's interrogation practices, the Senate Armed Services Committee issued a report yesterday that accuses Rumsfeld and his deputies of being the authors and chief promoters of harsh interrogation policies that disgraced the nation and undermined U.S. security. The report, released by Sens. Carl M. Levin (D-Mich.) and John McCain (R-Ariz.), contends that Pentagon officials later tried to create a false impression that the policies were unrelated to acts of detainee abuse committed by members of the military.

    "The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own," the report states. "The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees."

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:36am

12. ....The report is the most direct refutation to date of the administration's rationale for using aggressive interrogation tactics -- that inflicting humiliation and pain on detainees was legal and effective, and helped protect the country. The 25-member panel, without one dissent among the 12 Republican members, declared the opposite to be true.

    The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority."

    -----

    GOT THAT!

    THE POLICIES SUPPORTED BY THE CONS HERE AT THE NATION

    STRENGTHENED THE HANDS OF OUR ENEMIES.

    This is the exact opposite of what the cons talking point propaganda was. Just like the current propaganda about the UAW being unwilling to make concessions, and the auto company being unwilling to close factories...it is propaganda that has no basis in fact.

    We on "the left" told you war mongers that torture would bite us in the ass, but you called US traitors. As John McCain told us today on ABC, Abu Graib was THE BEST recruiting tool AQ had. You told us it was just " a few bad apples". That was propaganda, and you ate it right up. Ponti and Darin would call it Kool-aid drinking .

    oh, I left out another AQ supporter,

    DARIN-THE-. TROLL Strengthened Al Qaida.

    so:

    Iraq was no threat

    Iraq had no wmd's

    Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11

    Torture strengthened AQ

    Obama is not a Muslim

    Obama is not a Marxist

    Obama is not a domestic terrorist

    ALL propaganda eaten by those that claim to eschew Kool-aid.

    SHEEP ALL!

    Scared lying SHEEP.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:45am

13. story continued

    Those techniques -- borrowed from a training program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape, or SERE -- included waterboarding, or simulated drowning, and were loosely based on methods adopted by Chinese communists to coerce propaganda confessions from captured U.S. soldiers during the Korean War.

    The SERE program became the template for interrogation methods that were ultimately approved by Rumsfeld himself. In the field, U.S. military interrogators used the techniques with little oversight and frequently abusive results, the panel found.

    "It is particularly troubling that senior officials approved the use of interrogation techniques that were originally designed to simulate abusive tactics used by our enemies against our own soldiers," the report said, "and that were modeled, in part, on tactics used by the Communist Chinese to elicit false confessions from U.S. military personnel."

    ----

    The sheep want Gulags in Cuba, they want to use Communist techniques on prisoners, they fill the airwaves with government propaganda...

    in other words they want to accuse us of being communists, but it is they that use communist techniques to further their "cause".

    Are any of you ashamed of HELPING AL QAIDA gain members by using techniques perfected by Communists?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:51am

14. I wish I still had BOLD

    "The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority.""

    Heckuva job Chimpy!

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:59am

15. Jesse Jackson, Jr. is just another Chicago politician who was "consulting" with the Governor to be appointed to the senate seat vacated by Obama. Sorry, but he is damaged goods now. Poor Illinois! Its politicians are swarming with crooks and dubious personages, and the Chicago crowd is the worst. Let's hope Jesse Jr. just leaves the stage. He'll be in familiar company with Jeremiah Wright, Bill Ayers and the remains of the Daley machine.

    Posted by jsens at 12/14/2008 @ 11:32am

16. How did he get his position in the first place? Merit? No father. What has he accomplished in 13 years aside from opposition? Promoted an alternative airport. Jr. would probably have opposed any war including WWII. This article is just a puff piece more concerned with losing a like minded progressive than with upholding ethical standards.

    This promotion of relatives needs to stop. This includes Biden's kid, Caroline Kennedy etc. Look at Lisa M. the Senator from Alaska-her dad appointed her!! Obama was able to do it on his own.

    Posted by seeblock at 12/14/2008 @ 12:14pm

17. Yes, JJJ is another Chicago politician---so is Obama. Anyone who doesnt think so, has not done their homework, as to how Obama "caged" voters to get into office in Chicago.

    Hey, I'd love to have a Pres. Kucinich and a Social Democracy---apparently, "progressives" want nothing of the kind. They settled--so , now, we all have to.

    Ummhmm...this is the first Chicago governor to be on the take. Just keep telling yourself that.

    I like Chicago--but its a slamdance of politics. No one rises through the ranks there without being very slick and well financed. That is just the way it is.

    Posted by kdelphi95 at 12/14/2008 @ 12:33pm

18. lvl...

    Re: Your response to crabwalk's @ 09:45am... is beneath you... you are insulting a person who is quoting John McCain... and I may be wrong, but I think you voted for McCain for president.

    "The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority."

    This internet colloquialism crap about 'taking your meds' is a cop out and you know it.

    The less meds in circulation... the better.

    Posted by ttr at 12/14/2008 @ 12:43pm

19. Great post, JOHN NICHOLS!

    I hope you are right about Jackson, as he is a progressive voice needed in the senate. I think the question for some is whether he had down-state appeal like Barack, as there is some agitation from voters in those areas of the state who are tired of state-wide politicians whose main concern is Chicago.

    Posted by Metteyya at 12/14/2008 @ 2:00pm

20. I think the other concern about Jackson is whether he is able to work across the aisle without sacrificing his progressive ideals. I think the Jackson record you described JOHN NICHOLS is admirable, but does Jr. have the political skill like Barack to create the broad coalitions needed to make real progress on the progressive agenda, or is he just another lone progressive voice of agitation and confrontation like Kucinich

    The "politics of protest" from Jr's father's generation has its place, but as Obama has demonstrated quite clearly, progressives also need results-oriented politicians with considerable political skill so that our ideals become reality.

    Posted by Metteyya at 12/14/2008 @ 2:09pm

21. Crab,

    I hope life works out well for you, but I think you should take a real hard look at your positions and beliefs as to how they relate to the real world the rest of us inhabit.. we who finance, create the jobs, pay the bills, and carry the load your "progressive" ideas demand we support.If ever a word combines oxymoron and non-sequitor it is the word progressive!

    At least try to delevop a realistic understanding, of us who are conservative believe and and what we what we believe as a philosophy of life as well as government. I am stunned by your complete miss of who many of us are.

    I can state unequivocally and with all the confidence of a Bill Clinton believeing he never had sex with Monica, that you have absolutly no clue as to what conservatives hold as truth anymore than you know what happened at Abu Grab behind closed doors...which in truth would cost about $500 a night in the CASTRO DISTRICT.

    Until you have an understanding free of emotionalism and frustration in the glasses you wear to see the world,you will have no clue to who we are or where we have similar beliefs, solutions, outlooks, and interests as you...and in most cases we do have those same interests and in their out comes.

    ...and you avoid the reflection of your self the posts above have so embarassing painted for your self...if they were uttered by a politician,you would find yourself squarely linked with the Nader/Kucinich crowd running for office, and quickly dispatched to the side line in the kook section of the far left...your post redefines the word GAFF and would call your capcity and ability to comprehend an opposing view into question.

    At this point, all one can hear is the propellar spinning wildly out of control(a red one)...way over here in Asia...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/14/2008 @ 4:31pm

22. well bush sure looked spry in avoiding the two flying shoes flung at him in a press conference in iraq.

    funny how the most profoundly screwed up, bangy, enterprisesend in a farcical, dissapointing, shoe flying whimper...

    strangely apropo...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 12/14/2008 @ 7:00pm

23. Mr. Nichols, Superb analysis of the issue.

    Jesse, Jr. is well qualified to be the Senator from Illinois.

    The list Emanuel gave to Blago was ridiculous other than Jan S.

    Jarrett? What is she qualified for? Duckworth? All she did was run to stop an actual progressive from the seating she lost. The Comptroller guy? He's a state official, not a national politician like Jesse. Just goes to show you where Obama's sympathies lie: the center-right, the crowd that screwed up the economy.

    Oh, to the poster who ties Jesse to Ayers: hilarious.

    Posted by neaguy at 12/14/2008 @ 9:53pm

24. "YourJoMamma," I understand that "Crabwalk" does inhabit the real world. In fact, he probably works at one of the jobs that people of your class "create."

    No wonder he gets sick of it sometimes. Cut him some slack.

    He's not upset because he can't see the truth. He's upset because you can't.

    For my part, I do not pretend to be able to expand any conservative's mind. My target audience is people who are still undecided about this or that matter. I am willing to allow every self-assured, self-reinforcing, sterile ideology to calcify as it may. I only hope it doesn't harm too many people when it finally starts to crumble.

    I take some comfort in the fact that Barack Obama is a better preacher to the undecided than I ever could be. Indeed, I feel much more able to tolerate conservatives -- now that they are becoming a minority.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 12/14/2008 @ 11:24pm

25. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/14/2008 @ 12:22pm |

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/14/2008 @ 4:31pm

    "The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority.""-signed by John McCain and 5 other republicans.

    HAPPY strengthened Al Qaida

    Luvvy strengthened Al Qaida

    JOMAMMA strengthened Al Qaida

    RIOKORESH strengthened Al Qaida

    CHIP THORNTON strengthened Al Qaida

    DAVEB strengthened Al Qaida

    SJCHERMAK strengthened Al Qaida

    ----

    "we who finance, create the jobs, pay the bills,"

    do you mean people like the owner of Republic Window and Door? Where is his "risk". What did he create that he didn't destroy, after taking YOUR tax dollars?

    What? Do you think I don't pay taxes?

    Fuck you, I just paid a $40,000 property tax bill!

    You helped Al Qaida John. think about it and get back to me about "reality" You think you know what happened in Abu Graib? Why wouldn't your hero Rumsfeld the AQ supporter release 2 DVD's FULL of pictures from Abu Graib?

    You are so damn pompous and so wrong so often it blows my mind how you can still have such an ego. Gimme one more and I will again list for all to see the prognostications of JOMMAMA THE WRONG.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:04am

26. way over here in Asia... Posted by YourJomamma at 12/14/2008 @ 4:31pm

    You mean communist China? The Socialist democracy that is going to bail out their auto industry? The socialist democracy that tortures Christians if they don't fill out the right paperwork and worship at state sponsored churches? The communist country that refuses to value their currency properly? The socialist country that builds worker housing AND picks up healthcare costs for those workers so that it's "job creators" can pay the workers less ?

    reality.

    The whiner that spends 90k a year traveling, but thinks someone that makes 60k a year is overpaid? The sheep that was sure Saddam Hussein had 20,000 liters of anthrax, was trying to buy yellowcake from Niger when he already had it and had a drone plane capable of bombing Lincoln Nebraska?

    reality.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:24am

27. i guess John McCain and the 5 other republicans were wrong about at least one thing. They said that the torture condoned by JOMAMAMA "compromised our moral authority". That makes the assumption that people like JOMAMMA have morals to begin with.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:28am

28. "we who finance"

    Really?

    Last I checked the financial industry just took a $700,000,000,000 check from us "parasites".

    Reality.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:30am

29. And please don't operate any moving machinery until the delusions stop. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/14/2008 @ 12:22pm

    OK, you let me know when you stop believing that flying colored horses are going to descend from the sky. Till then, I will stay off earth movers.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:58am

30. Oh, and Larry, let me know when you stop believing that Saddam Hussein was a threat to you, and when you stop believing that torturing innocent people keeps you safe.

    till then I will not fly any airplanes.

    "The administration's policies and the resulting controversies, the panel concluded, "damaged our ability to collect accurate intelligence that could save lives, strengthened the hand of our enemies, and compromised our moral authority."

    think about that Larry. You may have killed a US soldier, or a dozen, or 4209.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 08:01am

31. Reality..?

    "The whiner that spends 90k a year traveling, but thinks someone that makes 60k a year is overpaid?"

    My 90k a year to travel brings in millions in gross...

    $ 60k a year is fine but depends on what it is one is doing for it in exchange..

    lug nuts on wheels? no.. a fine teacher? no..underpaid at $60...

    paid over $60k not to work...for 3 years?..ah, no...

    The peope we will hire if we conclude our business here will start at $75k...

    People should be paid what ever they can get related to what the person who pays them agrees..if the company fails completely, as most companies do..the deal is kaput in reality. ..not what you think they should be paid...

    no market for the product or service, no pay...exdcept in your world..your types wopuld have us still paying for buggy whip workers...

    do you realize the Railroads still pay a fireman today? You know...they guy who shovels coal into the engine on the steam engine?

    Good union job, huh...helps the country...and you want more of the same...despite the RR has no schedule, road beds, service of any kind, no value, is subsidised up the ass...

    I just travel to a city 250 miles sw of Beijing, had a 4 hour meeting, and back..on a train that averaged 202 KM/hr..one of 4 a day..clean efficient, on time...

    just an example..I am amazed at the changes taking place here..and they are in a financial mess also...are in the process of trying to clean up their air, which is a mess..efficiency and growth is what they are after..dumping many of the things you want to put in place in America...funny how things are changing..

    anyway... I will not bother you anymore with my beliefs...

    I do know, if I were AQ,..I would pray for more Americans like you...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 08:04am

32. Fuck you, I just paid a $40,000 property tax bill!

    Fuck me? Yup, thats is what I get everyday from your types...however, I wised up and have already made changes..

    You need to pay more..so you can earn more money...right..if you only were a real patriot, paid MORE in taxes, your wealth would increase..just think how much better you would be if you paid $80k..on the same income!!!! Why, next year you would be richer!!! AND...I get free health care!!! And, I could get my entire company unionised up the ass...!!

    I am tickled beyond repair at the thought!!!

    Right??

    This is your "reality"?

    Keep it.

    I spent more on airline tickets..so what?

    Your money went into city coffers, paid for a variety of things and you were cheated...

    just take a look at the results of the public schools you finance..

    good deal, for you? for the student 60% grad rates who cant read?

    If you are holding mortgages on your propertys..i would suggest to sell..in the next 4-6 years you are going to lose money and equity.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 08:15am

33. Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:51am

    Hey Crabman.

    One of my best friends from high school went through SERE school as part of his Airborn training. He said the physical part was nothing. It was all about what could break you mentally. For instance, they had to march in a circle all day long while the speaker blasted a song from a punk band named Suicidal Tendencies. The name of the song was, "I Saw your Mommie and Your Mommie's Dead." (I saw her lying in a pool of red.)

    My freid thought is was funny and it kind of helped him get through the day. But it fostered undescribable rage and dispair in his Lt.

    The thing that got my friend was the sleep deprivation and sitting on the one-legged stool.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:05am

34. Suicidal Tendencies I saw Your Mommy Lyrics:

    Yesterday as I went out of the house

    I saw a body lying down quiet as a mouse

    She was lying face down in the sewer

    What you do-I got up closer and realized that I knew her

    What you see-All her organs coming from her inside

    That's nasty-Slashed up skin, sliced-up hide

    Tell me some more-Turned her over and saw the tire tracks on her head

    Then what-That's when I realized she was dead

    CHORUS Twisted body, chopped-off feet her body was minced meat Bust crawling on her arms She's dead can't do no harm Gnarled-up legs, broken and bent Her last breath has been spent

    I wonder how much you had to pay To get your mom killed in such a bloody way

    I saw your mommy and your mommy's dead

    I watched her as she bled

    Well she had-Chewed-off toes on her chopped-off feet

    Say what?-I took a picture 'cause I thought it was neat

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:05am

35. Oh, and whay I know about JJ Jr. was if he was talking to Blog he was talkin' cash.

    He was probably talking about how his daddy could extort more cash from the Budweiser distributorship so that Blog would be rich and JJ Jr. would be a Senator.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:09am

36. Last I checked the financial industry just took a $700,000,000,000 check from us "parasites".

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 07:30am

    Hey Crabman

    It looks like things got a little testy around here while I was gone.

    Technically, it is impossible to get $700Bn from "parasites". You see, a parasite produces nothing except waste and offspring. A parasite gets it's sustinence by leeching onto other productive organisms and then they suck sustinence out of non-parasitic organisms. There is no productivity, excess or otherwise, to be taxed to generate the $700Bn.

    And besides, the $700Bn isn't even a tax at this point. The debt issued by the US governement that is to be exhanged in the TARP (Troubled Asset Repurchase Program) is a guarantee backed up the the "Full Faith and Credit" of the US Governement. But, that debt is being exhanced for financial assets. If the financial assets produce enough cash flow to retire the debt, no taxes will need to be raised to make good on the guarantee. In fact, if the assets produce a positive return in excess of the debt issuance, there will be excess money than can either reduce taxes, or can be used to by Senate seats for "the less fortunate."

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:41am

37. Perhaps, JOHN NICHOLS we should wait to see just how much he was involved in this mess before casting dispersions or awarding laurels.

    So please stop "preping" us with stories of his greatness. Most of us know better. I think.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 12/15/2008 @ 10:16am

38. Not one of the cons addressed the issue of their firmly held belief that the torture in Iraq and elswhere was just the result of "a few bad apples".

    Lots of other stuff in there, but nothing about how they ate up the propaganda.

    this is what the report says:

    The policies of George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld HELPED the enemies of the United States. It may have cost the lives of troops.

    Who not only defended those polices, but advocated for more of the same, claiming that it was the best way to gather intelligence?

    Why is AQ metasticizing in 2008 instead of being eradicated? Why are we not winning the hearts and minds of those that preach hate death and destruction? It should be an easy thing to turn people from a dead end philosophy.

    A loss of moral authority is a good place to start looking.

    -----

    Cockroach Darin, how does it feel to drink the kool-aid? Are you not ashamed that you have helped the enemies of your country?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:33am

39. JOMMAMA, wether my taxes are being used wisely is not the issue you raised. You implied that I do not "pay the bills", but it sure feels like I do. I never claimed that if I paid higher taxes I would earn more, where did you get that fantasy from?

    ---------------

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:41am

    But this did not apply to Republic window Co?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:46am

40. Ya know, a while back there was even talk of shutting down sites like this that "helped our enemies" by giving airtime to "useful idiots". I thought they were talking about "the left" when all along they were talking about themselvs. Maybe those that helped our enemies grow stronger should do a little self censorship in the defense of the USA.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:49am

41. Cockroach Darin, how does it feel to drink the kool-aid? Are you not ashamed that you have helped the enemies of your country?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:33am

    I noticed that my name was conspicously absent from your list. I was assuming that you held me in much higher esteem than my collegues and had absolved my from "strengthening" AQ.

    Well, here's my response. If I were to push a murderer off a cliff for his punishment of being a murdered, but before I did, I gave him a helium filled mylar baloon that said, "rot in Hell", I would feel to bad for having "aided" him by prolonging his life .003 milliseconds due to the helium in the baloon.

    It's been several years, but I read an article that said we don't have to destroy radical Islam so much as manage its extinction to the lowest level of casualties of people they are taking down with them.

    This phase of actively killing the current leaders had been wildly successful. I regret that it was not prosecuted without errors. I regret that the MAINSTREAM MEDIA'S gleeful reporting of Abu Graib problems has given AQ some level of false comfort. But ultimately, the killing of terrorists and the attempts to extract information in hopes of killing even more terrorists is the right move. I reget that it was executed in a less than perfect manner.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:38am

42. this is what the report says:

    The policies of George W. Bush and Donald Rumsfeld HELPED the enemies of the United States. It may have cost the lives of troops.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:33am

    Who was it that published this report again? Was it the Weather undergrown or was it Bill Ayer's new foundation?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:41am

43. Why is AQ metasticizing in 2008 instead of being eradicated?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:33am

    Hey Crabman

    The only place that AQ is metasticizing is in your over active imagination.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:42am

44. Why are we not winning the hearts and minds of those that preach hate death and destruction?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:33am

    Because we are anti-death and destruction?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:44am

45. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 09:41am

    But this did not apply to Republic window Co?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:46am

    No, it didn't apply to Republic because they didn't have any distressed financial assets to sell into the TARP program/auction in order to shore up a weak capital base.

    Republic made windows. I think their sales used to be in the tens of millions and now their sales are something like three million. The change in the business cycle caused by the housing recession caused them to go bankrupt. It has nothing to do with excessive fear in the financial markets widening credit spreads and depressing the value of assets making up operating capital for financial insitutions.

    It's like some of you think the $700Bn is pixie dust that magically transforms all company business plans into successes and changes all business cycles into expansion.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:51am

46. Who was it that published this report again? Was it the Weather undergrown or was it Bill Ayer's new foundation?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:41am |

    Yes, a similar anti-American institution...the Armed Sevices Committee of the United States Senate. This particular report stands out in more than one respect, but the one that is striking to me is that it had ZERO dissenters. Very unusual for a report of this magnitude.

    Tell me Cockroach, what was Bill Ayers convicted of?

    ----

    Who was it that published this report again? Was it the Weather undergrown or was it Bill Ayer's new foundation?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:41am |

    I guess India, Pakistan, Iraq and Indonesia are figments of my inmagination?

    Take a look at the news coming out of Pakistan, links between the group that attacked Americans in India and AQ.

    Your presidential candidate said he interviewed a "high level operative of AQ in Iraq" (another figment of my imagination I guess) when he visited Iraq, and that operative told him that Abu Graib was the best recruitment they had. If you choose to blame the messenger instead of the guys that upheld the policies, well I can do nothing about your bizarre tranferrence. If you think that if the "librool media( GE, VIACOM, CLearChannel) had not reported on the abuse that the families of the abused would never have gone public, you are even more naive than you claim I am.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 11:52am

47. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:51am

    what happened to Republics assets? It's buildings, furnishings, tooling and machinery and the owners homes?

    I bet some of those assets will appear at the new Echo Window and Door Co.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 11:54am

48. Ya know, a while back there was even talk of shutting down sites like this that "helped our enemies" by giving airtime to "useful idiots". I thought they were talking about "the left" when all along they were talking about themselvs. Maybe those that helped our enemies grow stronger should do a little self censorship in the defense of the USA.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 10:49am

    One more thing, Crabman

    This "talk of shutting" wasn't participated in by the Bush Administration. This talk was just that, talk by angry bloggers.

    You see, the MSM gleefully reported every anti-American accusation they could get their hands on. Many times, the accusations were political propaganda dreamed up by AQ, like the "report" of a guard flushing a Koran. Even though there was never any truth what-so-ever behind the allegations, the MSM's reports fueled AQ recruitment and cause the deaths of dozens in anti-US riots all over the world.

    Sometimes, the gleeful reports were true, like the reports of humiliation at AG. It's funny, tough. The true report lead to fewer deaths and the false reports.

    Yes, mistakes were made by the US. That does't create a moral absolution of the MSM's attempts to undermine our progress in killing terrorists.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:57am

49. what happened to Republics assets? It's buildings, furnishings, tooling and machinery and the owners homes?

    I bet some of those assets will appear at the new Echo Window and Door Co.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 11:54am

    Owners' homes are assets of the company? I guess if you own any stocks in a 401(k) and one of those companies goes bankrupt you won't mind someone taking your home because it rightfully belongs to the companies creditors.

    You were joking, right?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:59am

50. "The abuse of detainees in U.S. custody cannot simply be attributed to the actions of 'a few bad apples' acting on their own," the report states. "The fact is that senior officials in the United States government solicited information on how to use aggressive techniques, redefined the law to create the appearance of their legality, and authorized their use against detainees."

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:00pm

51. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:57am

    mmmm, grape.

    Tasty.

    ----

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 11:59am |

    If the owner used his home as an asset to get a loan for his company, wouldn't it be an asset BoA could sieze in order to pay back the loan from the taxpayers?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:03pm

52. what happened to Republics assets? It's buildings, furnishings, tooling and machinery and the owners homes?

    I bet some of those assets will appear at the new Echo Window and Door Co.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 11:54am

    I'm speculating, but I would assume the building will be forclosed by the holder of the mortgage. I also speculate the the banks will reposess any vehicles that the company financed to purchase (all of them).

    Furnishings? If you hold a yard sale you can maybe get $2000 for the stained couch and the rest of the cubical walls.

    Tools and Machinery. In the current environment, where there is a glut of window makers, and a derth of people building houses, do you think anyone is going to pay more than ten cents on the dollar for window making tools?

    My guess is that the new non-union shop already has a building and all the tools they need.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 12:04pm

53. If the owner used his home as an asset to get a loan for his company, wouldn't it be an asset BoA could sieze in order to pay back the loan from the taxpayers?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:03pm

    Well, IF he pledged his home as collateral THEN the bank could forclose. But people dumb enough to do that aren't smart enough to run a business with tens of millions of dollars in sales in the first place.

    Unless, of course, the home prices were deeply depressed in Chicago. That actually might have been smart. The appraised value would probably be 30% higher than the value of the home. That way, when you want to move to Iowa to manage the non-union company you don't have to bother selling the home. Simply take out a 100% loan on the house and pledge it as collateral to the company and then walk away leaving the company with a $4 million mortgage and a home that can only be sold for $3 million. That way, you stick it too the union employees even more. They don't get paid what they are owed until the bank gets that extra $1 million to pay off the loss on your home.

    Brilliant Crabman. Maybe you do understand this business thing more than you are letting on.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 12:11pm

54. Well, given Mr Nichols' track record....

    I guess Jesse Jackson Jr. is doomed!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 12/15/2008 @ 12:14pm

55. But, as you claim for the assets that will be "gained by the taxpayers" under the bailout, in time they will appreciate as the economy picks up. Same with the building. I assume BoA holds the mortgage on the building.

    Which way do you want to have it?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:15pm

56. Cockroach, do you see any mention of the MSM in the report? What have you heard from the MSM about this report that lays the blame at Rumsfelds and Bush's feet? I would think that if your theory held true it would be all over the airwaves.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:18pm

57. more from the report of the Anti-American Senate Armed Services Committee bi-partison report covering for the abuses of the MSM

    "... Rumsfeld's actions were 'a direct cause of detainee abuse' at Guantanamo and 'influenced and contributed to the use of abusive techniques ... in Afghanistan and Iraq'" -

    why did they leave out the NYT? Why Darin, Why??

    How many people were kiled in the riots after the false Koran stroy broke?

    How many have died in custody in Iraq, Afghanistan and Cuba? I wonder if one of the editors of NYT snuck over to Iraq and did this:

    Report # DOD 003146

    Cause of death:

    Multiple blunt force injuries. Abrasion in upper right forehead. Abrasion on right lower forehead above eyebrow. Multiple contusions on right cheek and lower nose, left upper forehead, back of head. Abrasions on chest, lower costal margin. Contusions on arm, elbow, forearm, wrist, upper inner arm, groin, inner thigh, right back of knee and calf, left calf, left lower leg. Cause of death was pulmonary embolism due to blunt force injuries.

    Location :Bagram Collection Point

    Manner of death: Homicide

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:29pm

58. Glen Greenwald:

    "This Report was issued on Thursday. Not a single mention was made of it on any of the Sunday news talk shows, with the sole exception being when John McCain told George Stephanopoulos that it was "not his job" to opine on whether criminal prosecutions were warranted for the Bush officials whose policies led to these crimes. What really matters, explained McCain, was not that we get caught up in the past, but instead, that we ensure this never happens again -- yet, like everyone else who makes this argument, he offered no explanation as to how we could possibly ensure that "it never happens again" if we simultaneously announce that our political leaders will be immunized, not prosecuted, when they commit war crimes. Doesn't that mindset, rather obviously, substantially increase the likelihood -- if not render inevitable -- that such behavior will occur again? Other than that brief exchange, this Senate Report was a non-entity on the Sunday shows.

    Instead, TV pundits were consumed with righteous anger over the petty, titillating, sleazy Rod Blagojevich scandal, competing with one another over who could spew the most derision and scorn for this pitiful, lowly, broken individual and his brazen though relatively inconsequential crimes. Every exciting detail was vouyeristically and meticulously dissected by political pundits --

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:31pm

59. DOD003164 - DOD003170; DOD 003301

    Died as a result of asphyxia (lack of oxygen to the brain) due to strangulation as evidenced by the recently fractured hyoid bone in the neck and soft tissue hemorrhage extending downward to the level of the right thyroid cartilage. Autopsy reveleaved bone fracture, rib fractures, contusions in mid abdomen, back and buttocks extending to the left flank, abrasions, lateral buttocks. Contusions, back of legs and knees; abrasions on knees, left fingers and encircling to left wrist. Lacerations and superficial cuts, right 4th and 5th fingers. Also, blunt force injuries, predominatnly recent contusions (bruises) on the torso and lower extremities. Abrasions on left wrist are consistent with use of restraints. No evidence of defense injuries or natural disease. Manner of death is homicide. DOD 003329 refers to this case as "strangulation, found outside isolation unit."

    Whitehorse Detainment Facility, Nasiriyah, Iraq

    Homicide

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:33pm

60. DOD003183 - DOD003191; DOD003306

    Cause of death: Closed head injury with a cortical brain contusion and subdural hematoma. Manner of Death: Homicide. Iraqi male civilian detainee died in US custody 12 hours after a reported escape attempt. Physical force was required to subdue the detainee, and during the restraining process, his forehead hit the ground. Closed head injury: subarachnoid hemorrhage over brain, cortical brain contusion, right subdural hematoma. Additional injuries: fractured rib, multiple contusions and abrasions to head, torso and extremities. Abrasions on wrists and ankles consistent with restraint. Hemorrhage of right muscle of neck. No evidence of natural disease. DOD 003329 refers to this case as "1 closed head injury - died 12 hours after escape attempt."

    Abu Ghraib

    Homicide

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:35pm

61. DOD 003329 refers to this case as "1 blunt force trauma and choking; died during interrogation." DOD 003325 refers to this case with the notation "Q[uestioned] by OGA [Other Governmental Agency - non-military, often refers to the CIA] and NSWT [Navy Seals] died during interrogation."

    Al Qaim

    Homicide

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:36pm

62. It also appears that the "soft" approach favored by "the left", and most career military interrogators, resulted in more actionable intelligence being gathered than the harsh methods encoureaged by the neo-cons. It also helped lead to the success of a broader tactic, drawing a difference between the US occupiers and the Shia, allowing the Sunni Awakening to happen.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:45pm

63. I have not read the editorial yet, but evidently a special forces operative wrote in the Sun WAPO. He claims that more than 3000 American deaths can be blamed on the policies developed by Rumsfeld and Bush, and defended by Darin and his merry band of Finger Fighters For forgotten Freedoms.

    how does that compare to the riots in Denmark?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:48pm

64. Fianciers "making it happen", paying the bills

    Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:08pm

65. Bernard L. Madoff Investment Securities LLC

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:08pm

    I was waiting for someone to bring BM up.

    A while back I was bitching about the welfare state and wrote about my wife's best friend's sister-in-law. She was a 45-year old aspiring actress. She's worked less than 100 days in her life and her lifestyle is supported 100% by her parents. Anyway, the siblings with kids were getting more money than she was so she went to the spermbank and got inseminated. Then she moved home to mommy and Daddy and Daddy bought her a $500,000 house and she made him spen $400,000 to raise the roof 2 feet.

    Anyway, I was bitching because this poor soul is one of America's desperate 40 million unisured. Thank God that we have a benevolent government with a Medicaid program that forked over the tens of thousands of dollars to deliver her poor, poor child into this cruel world.

    Anyway, This woman was involved with the BM guy and now she is going to owe the federal government about $100,000 in back taxes for undeclared income, BUT NOT ONE FUCKING CENT OF THE MEDICAID PAYMENTs FOR HER CHILD's birth.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:33pm

66. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:33pm

    report her for fraud.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:36pm

67. As to murdered suspected terrorists, I don't care.

    I don't care what people's uneducated opinions are about responsible death counts.

    In my opinion, The Nation is responsible for the six million people who starved to death in the Ukraine because The Nation wildly supported Stalin.

    Are you going to cancel your subscription due to my opinion?

    I didn't think so.

    All of your theories about how a senate report proves 3000 extra deaths is total horseshit. There were 3000 people who died in the world trade centers. I'm sure the 3000 number was picked out of the air to create some moral equivalence between terrorists who murder innocent civilians and soldiers who murder terrorists in order to prevent the murder of innocent civilians.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:41pm

68. report her for fraud.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:36pm

    There is no fraud. She is unemployed. She has no income. She meets the qualifications for Medicaid.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:43pm

69. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:43pm

    well, it sounds like she works via your morals then.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:44pm

70. Darin, the families of "suspected terrorists" that are killed by US troops care. Their children strap on bombs and kill Americans.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:47pm

71. This woman was involved with the BM guy and now she is going to owe the federal government about $100,000 in back taxes for undeclared income.

    She has no income

    ----

    ????

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:49pm

72. ooof, John McCain is going to have his ass kicked today.

    365 to 173

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 1:58pm

73. Hey, this is funny:

    http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122911069488902405.html

    Life Imitates 'Animal House'

    Bluto: "Over? Did you say 'over'? Nothing is over until we decide it is! Was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor? Hell no!" Otter: "Germans?" Boon: "Forget it, he's rolling."--dialogue from "Animal House," 1978

    "Today is Dec. 7, the day that this government killed over 80,000 Japanese civilians at Hiroshima in 1941, two days before killing an additional 64,000 Japanese civilians at Nagasaki by dropping nuclear bombs on innocent people."--anti-American preacher Jeremiah Wright, Dec. 7, 2008

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 1:59pm

74. "Was it over when Saddam bombed the Twin Towers?" - The sheep, 2003.

    Was it over 6 years later?

    No.

    Darin, do you think America should be damned for allowing homsexuals to move about freely in the US? Should America be wiped from the face of the Earth by fire for allowing reproductive choice?

    If not, then why bring up the dead subject of Rev Wright without talking about the rightwing equivalents and the sermons preached from their pulpits?

    could it be ...ideology?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 2:07pm

75. Oh, I see. You are drawing an equivalent between WWII and the decision by Rumsfeld to ignore the rules set in place after WWII.

    so many problems with this, from your point of view.

    1: I assume you would be in favor of the same tax rates that were around during WWII?

    2: The Japanese attacked the the US, then continued, as a nation, to attack US interests outside of Japan.

    3: the nook-yoo-lar attacks ended the war.

    for a start.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 2:24pm

76. A while back I was bitching about the welfare state and wrote about my wife's best friend's sister-in-law. She was a 45-year old aspiring actress. She's worked less than 100 days in her life and her lifestyle is supported 100% by her parents. Anyway, the siblings with kids were getting more money than she was so she went to the spermbank and got inseminated. Then she moved home to mommy and Daddy and Daddy bought her a $500,000 house and she made him spen $400,000 to raise the roof 2 feet.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll

    Although your anecdotal evidence is uninspiring, it does contain a certain personal touch that makes it even less interesting. That being said, you are becomming one of my fave posters on this site. Your willingness to continue in an argument when you have already had your ass handed to you is like a really entertaining version of nails on a chalkboard...keep up the good work douche!

    Posted by ADHD at 12/15/2008 @ 2:56pm

77. If not, then why bring up the dead subject of Rev Wright without talking about the rightwing equivalents and the sermons preached from their pulpits?

    could it be ...ideology?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 2:07pm

    Because the Rightwing equivilents aren't as funny as this guy.

    He hates America so much that he has subconciously convinced himself that the US is responsible for starting WWII with the unprovked bombing of a civilian population.

    Nevermind that WWII had been ravaging Europe for several years before the US entered in 1941...

    Nevermind that Nuclear technology didn't exist in 1941...

    This guy hate Americo so much that -- that I'm at a loss to describe it.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/15/2008 @ 3:58pm

78. Wow...when I saw Jessee Jackson Jr in a press conference denying that he was trying to buy Obama's Senate seat I was astounded. He seemed to be protesting his innocence far to loudly and publicly for someone who hadn't even been accused? My immediate thought was that he must be up to his neck in the whole stinking mess. However, I'm not from Illinois so I didn't know anything about his legislative record. After reading this article I can only say you've got to be kidding. The last thing Obama needs in his Senate seat is a whacko left wing polarizing figure so unwilling to work with even his own party that that he has hurt the interests of his own congressional district. This article doesn't make him sound progressive it makes him sound nuts!!!! Isn't that how Blojevich comes across? Does the state of Illinois really want another corrupt nutcase?

    Posted by valwayne at 12/15/2008 @ 4:03pm

79. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/15/2008 @ 4:28pm

    the flying shoe belies your statement.

    Lifting economic sanctions does not mean that weapons inspections would have ceased.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 5:14pm

80. Manner of death: Homicide

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 12:29pm

    You mean the beheadings?

    When you complain, protest, demand the arresting of those responsible for beheadings,car bombings of shopping markets, schools, weddings and concern yourself with the familys of those who were beheaded...

    then I might, MIGHT give a shit about the poor abused, over fed, better dressed, newer Koran/prayer rug provided butchers that are jailed in ABU GRAB...

    and really help you protest that they where tortured my having to be over seen by women on their periods...

    but in general..fuck em..and their familys who had full knowledge as to where their chuildren were going and why...and I am sure those same familys give a shit about all the murdered women and children in shopping districts in Baghdad that are blown up by cars bombs by the dozen..

    They want to be martyrs for Islam...paradise for murder, 72 virgins?

    Accomodate them.

    If you place yourself in a position as these terroristys have by their own choice...then they should expect the consequences of their actions..and all the problems that might contain...do not want to risk ABU GRAB?

    Find another job.

    In my opinion...they were being given a break for being picked up instead of being sent on their journey immediately instead.

    ALLAH AKBAHR

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 5:26pm

81. Republic Windows??

    Idiots like CRAB are to blame...

    for he is a land baron, a multi home owner(why he needs more than 1 house smells of greed to me,when so many have none, but another thread)...and if all other land barons of his ilk who support the unions over common sense economic realitys in the Republic story would have ..

    drum roll...

    BOUGHT MORE WINDOWS AT A HIGHER PRICE FOR ALL HIS MANY MORE HOMES THAN McCAIN, THEN THE WORKERS WOULD HAVE HAD JOBS FOR EVER...

    and whether Crab actually needed the windows or whether those windows were of a better or poorer quality or value DOES NOT MATTER...

    for the greater need was for those who assembled the windoes do matter more than the viability of the entire enterprise...

    Crab...have you gone out and bought a handfull of GM, Ford or Chrysler cars?

    If not, why not? the UAW needs you to do so...just because..

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 5:32pm

82. What's this?

    Echo windows will be producing... granite blocks?

    Nope

    Windows and doors.

    even though the market won't support a window and door company.

    Go figure

    JOMAMMA, Omniscience again? You know for certain that every man in Abu Graib was a terrorist? Just like every man held in GITMO was a terrorist, but more than 1/2 have been freed.

    cool! What are the Superball numbers?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/15/2008 @ 8:19pm

83. Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/15/2008 @ 4:28pm

    He was paying terrorists and terrorist families."

    "He was allowing various terror groups and leaders to live and train in Iraq"

    Citation please.

    " For all of the messiness of Iraq now, and for all of the US lives lost or wounded, it has been well worth it."

    Please tell me what we have gained by invading and occupying Iraq? How about we poll the families who lost loved ones. Let's see if as many think it was worth it, as say WWII. Or even Vietnam.

    Eric

    (Maybe then, just for fun, we can poll KBR and blackwater investors...see what they think.)

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/15/2008 @ 9:02pm

84. "In my opinion...they were being given a break for being picked up instead of being sent on their journey immediately instead.

    ALLAH AKBAHR"

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 5:26pm

    Leaving aside the general incoherence of your opinions, please describe where most of the prisoners at Abu Garhab came from?

    (Don't check if you don't want to think as little of your own prognostications as the rest of us do.)

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/15/2008 @ 9:09pm

85. "... or whether those windows were of a better or poorer quality or value DOES NOT MATTER..."

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 5:32pm

    Yep. I'm sure paying the assemblers more than 25% less will do nothing but improve the quality.

    Maybe, instead of making payroll this week, I'll just cry poverty/lack of funding and set up shop across town.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/15/2008 @ 9:12pm

86. So, what you are saying is that JJ,Jr. isn't just a radical. He is a radical radical! Yes, we definitely need lots of those in the Senate. Why doesn't Illinois try putting someone there with some common sense and intelligence?

    Now, that would be a refreshing change. Illinois wasn't always a state of corruption and stupidity.

    Posted by jack_carlson at 12/15/2008 @ 10:58pm

87. VETERAN ACTIVIST AND FORMER AIDE TO CONGRESSMAN JACKSON MAINTAINS HIS PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR CONGRESSMAN JACKSON

    As long as the U.S. Attorney's current public position is that Jackson is NOT a target of the investigation and has NOT been accused of any misconduct, he should NOT be tainted by this process. And even public reports that a fundraiser made an alleged offer STILL has not implicated Jackson as having direct or indirect knowledge.

    . I have known Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr personally and professionally for over 20 years, and have worked directly with him for ALL of his public service career, and was proud to help lead the successful field operation for his first campaign for Congress. I have In my position as a veteran community/political activist and as the Associate Editor of The South Street Journal Newspaper I issued a public statement and personal endorsement in support of Congressman Jesse Jackson, Jr as the most uniquely qualified candidate to fill the U.S. Senate Seat of President-Elect Barack Obama. Today, I still stand behind my public position that Jackson is the best choice to fill the Senate Seat, and I will continue actively support his appointment.

    I trust Congressman Jackson and I support his public statement, and do not believe that Congressman Jackson personally presented any kind of financial offer to the Governor to get his selection. The detailed analysis that I released, in addition to the many major media endorsements also provided, the facts clearly show that Congressman Jackson's personal and professional record made him the obvious choice in a fair selection process. Congressman Jackson made his involvement in this Senate selection process very open to the public and had no need to engage in any other private dealings.

    Posted by joshuageneration at 12/15/2008 @ 11:16pm

88. "Leaving aside the general incoherence of your opinions, please describe where most of the prisoners at Abu Garhab came from? "

    I don't care where they came from, but why they were picked up.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 11:26pm

89. "JOMAMMA, Omniscience again? You know for certain that every man in Abu Graib was a terrorist? Just like every man held in GITMO was a terrorist, but more than 1/2 have been freed. "

    Just like you know most of the people in American jails are innocent...?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 11:28pm

90. "Iraq was no threat Iraq had no wmd's Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11 Torture strengthened AQ"

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/14/2008 @ 09:45am

    crabwalk, crabwalk. once again, playing fast and loose with the facts. Iraq was a huge threat to the region, a region that the US is absolutely dependent on. Iraq had invaded Iran and Kuwait. It was being ruled by a belligerent tyrant who had been gaming the UN since the first war. Iraq had WMDs, and used on their own people, and Iranians.

    The techniques being criticized by the Senate, were in fact used for the past 20 or 30 years during SERE training in the military. I find it curious that the Left and the MSM had nothing to say when the "torture" techniques were being used on military members for thirty years, but when they were used on some of the worst scum on the face of the earth, it was criminal.

    Background: the "hard cell" techniques weren't used by the military because they wanted to hurt members going thru the training. They were used to remind the students to bend, but not break. The methods used, were used BECAUSE they did not cause injuries.

    I find it very disingenious of McCain to criticize these "torture" techniques, when as a senator and former officer, he almost certainly knew they were going on for 20 to 30 years in his Navy.

    By the way, crabwalk, you HAVE noticed that AQ hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away.

    Posted by twillie at 12/15/2008 @ 11:45pm

91. "I don't care where they came from, but why they were picked up."

    "Just like you know most of the people in American jails are innocent...?"

    Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 11:28pm

    I see. Most people in jail here, are there because local warlords swept up their personal enemies and renditioned them to a foreign government for torture?

    Do you have any fact based opinions?

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/16/2008 @ 06:34am

92. "By the way, crabwalk, you HAVE noticed that AQ hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away."

    Posted by twillie at 12/15/2008 @ 11:45pm

    you HAVE noticed that Iran hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away.

    you HAVE noticed that North Vietnam hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away.

    you HAVE noticed that packs of raging bears haven't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away. (OK, that was me. You're welcome).

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/16/2008 @ 06:38am

93. you HAVE noticed that Iran hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away.

    you HAVE noticed that North Vietnam hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away.

    you HAVE noticed that packs of raging bears haven't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away. (OK, that was me. You're welcome).

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/16/2008 @ 06:38am

    Well, the first two are correct because President Bush has kept us safe.

    The third one is a federalism issue. All functions of government should be handled at the lowest level possible. There are a number of instances of bears invading human spaces. In fact, I remember seeing a YouTube video of a Subway employee scrambling of safety in the bathroom as a bear invaded her shop. I beleive the bear was later put down by the DNR because once a bear learns it can find food among humans that bear is a threat for life.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 06:48am

94. It would appear that neither John Nichols or Congressman Jesse Jackson Jr. know much about the law.

    What the War Powers Act of 1973 Says:

    Passed by Congress over President Nixon's veto, the War Powers Act of 1973 requires the president to "consult" with Congress before "introducing United States Armed Forces into hostilities or into situations where imminent involvement in hostilities is clearly indicated by the circumstances," and to notify Congress within 48 hours of any U.S. troop commitment or deployment.

    That's all.

    Bush never declared war and the last time congress approved one was for WW2

    Mike

    Posted by Redbourn at 12/16/2008 @ 07:14am

95. Well, the first two are correct because President Bush has kept us safe.---Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 06:48am

    So Bill Clinton kept us safe after the 1993 WTC bombing, right?

    (Now, here's where you bring up the Cole, the Khobar Towers, and the US embassies in Africa....and then WE get to bring up the London, Madrid, and Mumbai attacks (given they TOO were in other countries) and the insurgent attacks in Iraq....and your point on both fronts is lost, given by YOUR OWN STANDARD, either Bush got lucky (as you'll say about Clinton) or Clinton "kept us safe" (as you said about Bush)).

    Posted by Mask at 12/16/2008 @ 08:51am

96. Chicago's CHICKENS... Have come home... To roost!

    Posted by BillEastland at 12/16/2008 @ 10:03am

97. Most people in jail here, are there because local warlords swept up their personal enemies and renditioned them to a foreign government for torture?

    Do you have any fact based opinions?

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/16/2008 @ 06:34am

    Physician, heal thyself.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:08am

98. (Now, here's where you bring up the Cole, the Khobar Towers, and the US embassies in Africa....and then WE get to bring up the London, Madrid, and Mumbai attacks (given they TOO were in other countries)

    Posted by Mask at 12/16/2008 @ 08:51am

    Mask, are you joking?

    Who died in the Cole bombing? US Soldiers

    Who died at Khobar Towers? US Soldiers

    Who died in the bombing of US embassies? US Soldiers and diplomats.

    Who died in London? Damn foreigners

    Who died in Madrid? Damn foreigners

    Who died in Mubbai? Damn foreigners

    Mask, are you so blind that you are unable to see a pattern in who was killed on US PRESIDENT Bill Clinton's watch and who was killed on US PRESIDENT George Bush's watch?

    During Bill Clinton's presidency, the rest of the world thought radical Islamic terrorism was a problem only for the US. After the wake-up call on 9.11.01, Bush made protecting Americans a priority and what do you know? Islamic terrorists had to content themselves with killing random innocents who were not American.

    Is any of this getting through? Do you understand that the US PRESIDENT's job is to protect Americans and not just random citizens of humanity, where ever they reside in the world?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:19am

99. Just like you know most of the people in American jails are innocent...? Posted by YourJomamma at 12/15/2008 @ 11:28pm

    I never claimed that. Is it that you just enjoy being wrong? Describe that pleasure for the rest of us...

    ----

    No attacks on the US? Really?

    As MASK described, Clinton mamanged the same feat, WHILE BRINGING terrorists before a real judge and jury and getting guilty verdicts without the world questioning the validity of the trial system.

    In the Green Zone, where the US embassy is located, there are daily attacks, including mortar and rocket attacks. 4209 Americans have been killed, I don't think it matters where they were, DEAD IS DEAD.

    As far as SERE techniques: I do believe that any body in the US military could walk away if they chose. They volunteered to go through the training, last I checked the young kids kidnapped from PAkistan did not volunteer to be dragged to Castros Cuba to be held for years without trial.

    Face it Cons, you HAVE HELPED AL QAIDA RECRUIT MORE FOLLOWERS. That is not just the opinion of some far out whacked lefty, it is the opinion of ALL the republicans on the Senate Armed Services Committee, it is the opinion of many military lawyers and tacticians, Generals and other retired officers. It is a fact that you cannot deny. You can dance and sing around the issue, but YOU HELPED AL QAIDA KILL AMERICANS.

    period

    Why do you hate America so much that you would willingly help it's enemies kill it's citizens?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:23am

100. Whoops!

     Where did the goal post go? Crap! It was in the US, now it is in Lebanon, next it will be in India.

     "Iraq was a threat to the region"

     With what army? He was not even a threat to the Kurds. He was a threat to his own people. As we can see from the flying shoe, they are not too pleased with the replacement "government". I use quotes because the elected leaders (people did not know who they were voting for) are not getting their country in order, now are they?

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:29am

101. Once upon a time, there were four farmers. There was Farmer John, Farmer Juan, Farmer Ivan, and Farmer Emile.

     They other three were very envious of Farmer John because his crops were much, much better than the others' crops. That's why they felt a certain cosmic justice when Farmer John's far, far superior crops attracted rats.

     Well, Farmer John, being a "can do"-type of guy set out to exterminate the rats. He did a fantastic job. He killed about 90% of the rats, and the rest, being intelligent creatures, scattered to the farms of Juan, Ivan, and Emile.

     Well, the other Farmers had always believed that Farmer John's farming Superiority created a moral obligation for Farmer John to accept the rat investation so that they could enjoy their relatively meger harvests without having to deal with a rat investation of their own.

     In addition to being envious, the three became resentful that Farmer John's attempts to extermnate the vermine created a nuisance for them to have to deal with.

     To which Farmer John replied, "Fuck you."

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:31am

102. Of all places; The Drudge Report

     "Matthew Alexander, U.S. interrogator: I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq."

     -------

     A while back PONTIFICUS the Lost called me pond scum. I rejoiced in the complement. It seems the US military agrees with this far out crazy lazy lefty.... again;

     The US military's DARPA research agency is sponsoring research under the Biofuels-Cellulosic and Algal Feedstock program. Its goal is to develop the technical capability and commercial experience to produce an affordable JP-8 surrogate fuel from algae, in order to create a wider range of options if some of the US Army's Corps of Engineers' predictions come true over the next couple of decades. JP-8 is the fuel used by the US Air Force; Army vehicles also use it as an option, which can simplify the supply chain. Bids solicited were via the Broad Agency Announcement and 17 bids were received by the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) in Arlington, VA.-Defense Industry Daily

     Just think cons, your tax dollars will be spent researching lefty technology! Drill baby drill!!

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:34am

103. As we can see from the flying shoe, they are not too pleased with the replacement "government".

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:29am

     Since when does one person throwing a temper tantrum "speak" for and entire country?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:35am

104. As MASK described, Clinton mamanged the same feat, WHILE BRINGING terrorists before a real judge and jury and getting guilty verdicts without the world questioning the validity of the trial system.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:23am

     You are suggesting that Farmer John should hold a trial for the rats?

     The four Farmers, despite their difference, live in a government. A government is an arrangement where individuals voluntarily relinquish certain freedoms in order to secure rights.

     The four farmers relinquish the right to rape, pillage, and steal from one another, and further agree to pay taxes to support a police force that secures the rights to security and property for the four farmers.

     The rats don't agree to relinquish the freedom to rape, pillage and steal from the farmers. The rats don't agree to pay taxes to support the police force that securse the right to safety and property.

     The rats don't deserve trials.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:40am

105. Since when does one person throwing a temper tantrum "speak" for and entire country? Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:35am

     since the crowds around the world develop from nothing and cheer the bizarre incident.

     since when do the actions of 19 Saudis and Yeminis speak for the actions of 24,000,000 Iraqis?

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:40am

106. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:40am

     the problem, Darin, is that you cannot tell a rat from a rabbit, a mule, a zebra or a mussel. So you kill them all in a fear based frenzy of mismanagement.

     You can hide behind your "no attacks on America" if it makes you "feel" better, but your ideology has you hiding behind women and children, torturing children and innocent men, killing wedding parties and increasing the member count of Al Qaida. now I know you think every person captured by or ransomed to the US is guilty of trying to kill you, but the facts dispute your fears.

     now, does AQ do worse things to people it captures? No question about it, they are evil incarnate, quoting their scripture while killing innocent people. Your strateegery is to out evil them, while you quote scripture and kill the innocent along with the guilty.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:47am

107. Ahh, here, I found it, 1 soldier speaks.

     By Matthew Alexander Sunday, November 30, 2008; Page B01

     I should have felt triumphant when I returned from Iraq in August 2006. Instead, I was worried and exhausted. My team of interrogators had successfully hunted down one of the most notorious mass murderers of our generation, Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaeda in Iraq and the mastermind of the campaign of suicide bombings that had helped plunge Iraq into civil war. But instead of celebrating our success, my mind was consumed with the unfinished business of our mission: fixing the deeply flawed, ineffective and un-American way the U.S. military conducts interrogations in Iraq. I'm still alarmed about that today.

     I'm not some ivory-tower type; I served for 14 years in the U.S. Air Force, began my career as a Special Operations pilot flying helicopters, saw combat in Bosnia and Kosovo, became an Air Force counterintelligence agent, then volunteered to go to Iraq to work as a senior interrogator. What I saw in Iraq still rattles me -- both because it betrays our traditions and because it just doesn't work.---

     Got that? Your strategy DOES NOT WORK. Not from another crazy lazy hippy, from a person that was there. A troop. Listen to the troops. Not the white trash troops, the pros.

     ----We got to know our enemies, we learned to negotiate with them, and we adapted criminal investigative techniques to our work (something that the Field Manual permits, under the concept of "ruses and trickery"). It worked. Our efforts started a chain of successes that ultimately led to Zarqawi.--

     You guys claimed that Chimpies techniques worked, but it WAS NOT torture that caught Zarqawi. Once again the claims of the cons fall flat under inspection from reality.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:54am

108. "Matthew Alexander, U.S. interrogator: I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq."

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:34am

     Crabman, this is the difference between and excuse and a reason.

     All objects, even people, are governed by probabalistic laws. What you eat for lunch on a given day is a random occurance that is impacted by a number of other random events. Did you stop for the yellow like and see an ad for Burger King on a Bus driving by, or did you speed through the intersection only to see a bus with a McDonald's sign on it?

     Take Mohamed, what is the probablity that Mohamed will join AQ and flock to Iraq? Well that depends. Does his Iman regularly preach hate about The Great Satan? Does he know nieghbors that are held in high regard because their some became a martyr murdering innocent Jews? Does he know enough english to read the NYT to understand why his Iman is correct in describing the US as The Great Satan?

     And did he hear about Abu Graib. There are people who signed up for AQ even befor AG. There are America haters who didn't sign up for AQ even after AG.

     So tell me exactly how many actually signed up because AG tipped them over the point that wouldn't have if AG hadn't been on the front page of the NYT for six months.

     So first, for a very few people, AG is the reason that tipped them. For most, it is an excuse because they would have anyway, but it sounds good for the NYT reporters. Further, it wasn't the torture that got people to sign up. It was the US paper's reporting of it that got people to sign up.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:55am

109. cont...

     A few of them never abandoned the jihadist cause but still gave up critical information. One actually told me, "I thought you would torture me, and when you didn't, I decided that everything I was told about Americans was wrong. That's why I decided to cooperate."

     Torture and abuse are against my moral fabric. The cliche still bears repeating: Such outrages are inconsistent with American principles. And then there's the pragmatic side: Torture and abuse cost American lives.

     It's no exaggeration to say that at least half of our losses and casualties in that country have come at the hands of foreigners who joined the fray because of our program of detainee abuse. The number of U.S. soldiers who have died because of our torture policy will never be definitively known, but it is fair to say that it is close to the number of lives lost on Sept. 11, 2001. How anyone can say that torture keeps Americans safe is beyond me -- unless you don't count American soldiers as Americans.

     http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/

     article/2008/11/28/AR2008112802242.html

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:57am

110. the problem, Darin, is that you cannot tell a rat from a rabbit, a mule, a zebra or a mussel. So you kill them all in a fear based frenzy of mismanagement.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:47am

     No, I know which vermin are eating my crops and which vermin aren't. I also know which people are a member of my government (the agreement to relinquish freedoms in order to secure rights) and which people have declared war on me and my government and I have a God given right to exterminate in self defense.

     (Rights are given by God, but secured by might. It could be my own might in the case of self defense or military might in the case of GWOT.)

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:58am

111. since when do the actions of 19 Saudis and Yeminis speak for the actions of 24,000,000 Iraqis?

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:40am

     Maybe you can subscribe to the Mask Archiving System and retrieve the quote from Bush's State of the Union Speach where Bush said, "We need to invade Iraq as payback for 9/11"

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 12:00pm

112. It was the US paper's reporting of it that got people to sign up. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:55am

     so full of shit, so full..

     blame the messenger, that those that actually caused the deaths of American via their policies.

     So sad. Hide behind the women and children Darin.

     BTW, I do not eat at BK or Mac Donalds. No randomness to it, I try not to poison my body. It is a shrine. Yours is a ruin.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:01pm

113. but your ideology has you hiding behind women and children, torturing children and innocent men, killing wedding parties and increasing the member count of Al Qaida.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:47am

     So now your fevered imagination has the US torturing children. It was John Kerry who claimed, incorrectly, that the US was "terrorizing" children and you "promote" his statement to "torturing" children.

     Nice.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 12:02pm

114. ...Americans, including officers like myself, must fight to protect our values not only from al-Qaeda but also from those within our own country who would erode them. Other interrogators are also speaking out, including some former members of the military, the FBI and the CIA who met last summer to condemn torture and have spoken before Congress -- at considerable personal risk.-

     But until we renounce the sorts of abuses that have stained our national honor, al-Qaeda will be winning. Zarqawi is dead, but he has still forced us to show the world that we do not adhere to the principles we say we cherish. We're better than that. We're smarter, too.--Alexander

     Well, not all of us, even those that should be smarter.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:04pm

115. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 12:02pm

     Do you consider 14 and 16 year olds adults?

     Oh, wait, maybe you will make some claim that will once again prove to be based on propaganda and turn out to be false, so tread as carefully as a 300 lb man can, Cockroach.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:07pm

116. Darin, you don't think leveling Faluja , bombing wedding parties, destroying villages and kidnapping Fathers in ANY WAY terrorizes children?

     Shit man, you have lived in terror for 7 years because two buildings fell a thousand miles from you.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:14pm

117. "What I saw in Iraq still rattles me -- both because it betrays our traditions and because it just doesn't work.---"

     'nuff said.

     Keep clinging to the FOX 24 version of reality cons, it is losing us the war, regardless of how many battles the troops win, YOU are losing the war for them.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:17pm

118. Darin, I want to see an end to AQ. I want Iraqis to live in peace. I want to see bin Ladens head on a pike.

     Your policies have not only not brought about my desires, and yours I think, they have actively fought against my, and your professed goals. If you keep doing the same thing expecting different results, you are insane.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:26pm

119. correction:

     blame the messenger, NOT that those that actually caused the deaths of American via their policies.

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:29pm

120. Since when does one person throwing a temper tantrum "speak" for and entire country? Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/16/2008 @ 11:35am

     "BAGHDAD -- Calling someone the "son of a shoe" is one of the worst insults in Iraq. But the lowly shoe and the Iraqi who threw both of his at President Bush, with widely admired aim, were embraced around the Arab world on Monday as symbols of rage at a still unpopular war.

     In Saudi Arabia, a newspaper reported that a man had offered $10 million to buy just one of what has almost certainly become the world's most famous pair of black dress shoes.

     A daughter of Col. Muammar el-Qaddafi, the Libyan leader, reportedly awarded the shoe thrower, Muntader al-Zaidi, a 29-year-old journalist, a medal of courage.

     Although that action was not expressed in a civilized manner, it showed the Iraqi feelings, which is to object to the American occupation," said Qutaiba Rajaa, a 58-year-old physician in Samarra, a Sunni stronghold north of Baghdad.

     But many more expressed undiluted pleasure. "I swear by God that all Iraqis with their different nationalities are glad about this act," said Yaareb Yousif Matti, a 45-year-old teacher from Mosul, in northern Iraq.

     Mr. Zaidi, who remained in custody Monday, provided a rare moment of unity in a region often at odds with itself. Glee, even if thinly veiled, could be discerned in much of the reporting, especially in places where anti-American sentiment runs deepest.

     In Syria, Mr. Zaidi's picture was shown all day on state television, with Syrians calling in to share their admiration for his gesture and his bravery. In central Damascus, a huge banner hung over a street, reading, "Oh, heroic journalist, thank you so much for what you have done."

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:32pm

121. Congressman Jackson is innocent until proven guilty, just like everybody else.

     That said, just because he voted against Bush does not exonerate him or make him a saint. Rod Blagojevich has voted against him and look at him...............

     And why does every scandal and every topic you all comment on always go back to the 2000 election? That is really productive and exactly why Obama is the second Carter administration versus the third Clinton one.

     Posted by Weyld1 at 12/16/2008 @ 3:26pm

122. Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 12:32pm

     Hmm, was that reporter able to find a single person who thought shoe throwing was idiotic, childish, and beneath Iraqis who care about their country? Guess we'll never know......

     "Matthew Alexander, U.S. interrogator: I learned in Iraq that the No. 1 reason foreign fighters flocked there to fight were the abuses carried out at Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo. Our policy of torture was directly and swiftly recruiting fighters for al-Qaeda in Iraq." Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:34am

     So, did he stop using torture and use 'soft cell techniques"? If they worked, great. We don't need to do anything harsh anymore. So crabwalk, whats your beef? Are we still using "torture"? If not, then your point is moot. If we did at one time, and it worked at one time, well, no attacks on US soil since 9/11, huh? Wanna put Matthew Alexander on trial?

     Posted by twillie at 12/16/2008 @ 10:12pm

123. "you HAVE noticed that Iran hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away. you HAVE noticed that North Vietnam hasn't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away. you HAVE noticed that packs of raging bears haven't made an attack on US soil since 9/11? Explain that away. (OK, that was me. You're welcome)." Posted by Malcontent at 12/16/2008 @ 06:38am

     Mal: Iran never made an attack on US soil. North Vietnam never made an attack on US soil. Al Qaeda made an attack on US soil. But not since 9/11. Explain that away.

     Posted by twillie at 12/16/2008 @ 10:21pm

124. "Iraq was a threat to the region" With what army?

     crab, you sound like Chamberlain in 1938. Hussein invaded Iran and Kuwait. Using his army.

     "He was not even a threat to the Kurds. " except when he gassed them.

     He was a threat to his own people. As we can see from the flying shoe, they are not too pleased with the replacement "government". I use quotes because the elected leaders (people did not know who they were voting for) are not getting their country in order, now are they? Posted by crabwalk at 12/16/2008 @ 11:29am

     crab, know how long the Revolutionary War lasted? Think everyone was happy the whole time? Think anyone ever said, 'screw it, let's go back to the monarchy"? How do you know how many Iraqis are happy with their government?

     Finally, what do you suppose would have happened to a guy if he had thrown a shoe at Hussein?

     Posted by twillie at 12/16/2008 @ 10:31pm

125. Al Qaeda made an attack on US soil. But not since 9/11. Explain that away.

     Posted by twillie at 12/16/2008 @ 10:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     .

     They were too busy attacking other countries in the 'coalition of the willing'.

     You know, the UK (7/5/05), Spain (3/11/04), etc.

     If you are trying to make the claim that the Iraq war made the world safe from terrorists...

     ...you're a moron.

     Posted by Lillian at 12/17/2008 @ 12:31am

126. Posted by twillie at 12/16/2008 @ 10:12pm

     "we" may not be torturing at the same rate we were before, but AQ is still reaping the rewards of your policies, and so are US troops stationed overseas. That is the point.

     As others have pointed out, isn't it grand that your basepoint is Saddam Hussein and as long as we don't reach that level, well, we are great and God loves us. Exceptt it looks like the war in Iraq will cost Iraqis a similar number of their loved ones to make you "feel" safe.

     Maybe this is the bumper sticker you should put on your Prius..."I din't kill as many civilians as Saddam, but I did kill as many Americans as Bin Laden".

     Posted by crabwalk at 12/17/2008 @ 2:49pm

127. "if you are trying to make the claim that the Iraq war made the world safe from terrorists... ...you're a moron." Posted by Lillian at 12/17/2008 @ 12:31am

     Read what I wrote, numbnuts. No attacks on US SOIL. We can't protect the world. But we can work on our little corner.

     Posted by twillie at 12/18/2008 @ 10:30pm