Biden Teaches Palin the Meaning of 'Maverick'

ST. LOUIS -- On the night after the U.S. Senate endorsed a $700 billion plan to bail out collapsing banks, and on the day before the U.S. House will be asked to do the same, the economy was going to be the central issue of the first and only vice presidential debate.

Neither Sarah Palin nor Joe Biden wanted to be on the wrong side of the divide between what a previous vice presidential contender famously -- and accurately -- described as "two Americas."

So it was the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee and the sitting governor of the nation's physically-largest state spent the evening talking about buying gas "with a guy named Joe" and rallying "Joe Six Packs (and) hockey moms across the nation."

Biden and Palin both buffed their blue-collar credentials. They told stories of personal woe. Biden referenced tough times on streets of Scranton and Wilmington. Palin recalled going without health-care coverage. Biden's voice caught as he spoke of caring as a single parent for an injured child.

For the most part, however, the candidates eschewed personality profiling in favor of full-throated denunciations of all things Wall Street.

"If you need any more proof positive of how bad the economic theories have been, this excessive deregulation, the failure to oversee what was going on, letting Wall Street run wild, I don't think you needed any more evidence than what you see now," griped Biden.

"Darn right it was the predator lenders, who tried to talk Americans into thinking that it was smart to buy a $300,000 house if we could only afford a $100,000 house. There was deception there, and there was greed and there is corruption on Wall Street. And we need to stop that," grumbled Palin.

If they walked the same stylistic line when it came to trying to out-populist one another, however, the candidates divided on the issues.

And that is how Biden prevailed.

Let's be clear that Palin did not crash and burn as her most ardent detractors anticipated – or, at the least, hoped – she would. Yes, the governor rambled at times, and she had no comebacks at those moments when Biden directly challenged the validity of her over-the-top claims about Democratic presidential nominee Barack Obama's Senate voting record. But Palin gave Republican spin doctors enough material – mainly in the form of folksy one-liners -- so that they could cheer her "success" without sounding entirely ridiculous.

The anticipated gravitas gap was on display, especially when the senior senator's encyclopedic knowledge of foreign and domestic policy – and of Republican presidential nominee John McCain's voting record – was contrasted with Palin's encyclopedic knowledge of tax codes in Wasilla, her desperate clinging to the word "maverick" and her line-of-the-night observation that unleashing "nuclear weaponry, of course, would be the be-all, end-all of just too many people and too many parts of our planet."

But Palin was not the moose-in-the-headlights that America saw talking with CBS News anchor Katie Couric. She was generally on message, and the message was "us-against-them" populism.

Asked by moderator Gwen Ifill about the condition of the economy, Palin responded, "You know, I think a good barometer here, as we try to figure out has this been a good time or a bad time in America's economy, is go to a kid's soccer game on Saturday, and turn to any parent there on the sideline and ask them, ‘How are you feeling about the economy?' And I'll bet you, you're going to hear some fear in that parent's voice, fear regarding the few investments that some of us have in the stock market. Did we just take a major hit with those investments?"

That was suitably "of the people" – especially coming from a rather wealthy suburban Republican.

Unfortunately for Palin, Biden recognized an opening, and he took it.

"(It) was two Mondays ago (that) John McCain said at 9 o'clock in the morning that the fundamentals of the economy were strong. Two weeks before that, he said… we've made great economic progress under George Bush's policies," the senator began. "Nine o'clock, the economy was strong. Eleven o'clock that same day, two Mondays ago, John McCain said that we have an economic crisis. That doesn't make John McCain a bad guy, but it does point out he's out of touch. Those folks on the sidelines knew that two months ago."

Again and again, when Palin went populist, Biden went after McCain.

Take the point at which Palin was ready to lead the rabble to the barricades.

"(Let's commit ourselves just every day American people, Joe Six Pack, hockey moms across the nation, I think we need to band together and say never again," she announced. "Never will we be exploited and taken advantage of again by those who are managing our money and loaning us these dollars. We need to make sure that we demand from the federal government strict oversight of those entities in charge of our investments and our saving…"

Biden did not ridicule his opponent's pretense.

Rather, he suggested that, while Palin could talk all she liked about rallying the masses against Wall Street, she would have a hard time getting John McCain on board for the revolution.

"Two years ago, Barack Obama warned about the sub-prime mortgage crisis. John McCain said shortly after that in December he was surprised there was a sub-prime mortgage problem. John McCain, while Barack Obama was warning about what we had to do, was literally giving an interview to The Wall Street Journal saying that ‘I'm always for cutting regulations.' We let Wall Street run wild. John McCain and he's a good man, but John McCain thought the answer is that tried and true Republican response: deregulate, deregulate," Biden told Palin, and America.

"So what you had is… overwhelming deregulation. You had actually the belief that Wall Street could self-regulate itself. And while Barack Obama was talking about reinstating those regulations, John on 20 different occasions in the previous year and a half called for more deregulation. As a matter of fact, John recently wrote an article in a major magazine saying that he wants to do for the health care industry deregulate it and let the free market move like he did for the banking industry."

That was an ouch moment.

And it got more painful for Palin when, toward the end of the debate, Biden took the word the Republican clung to so fervently Thursday night – "maverick" – away from her, and from John McCain.

"Let's talk about the maverick John McCain is. And, again, I love him. He's been a maverick on some issues, but he has been no maverick on the things that matter to people's lives," Biden carefully explained. "He voted four out of five times for George Bush's budget, which put us a half a trillion dollars in debt this year and over $3 trillion in debt since he's got there. He has not been a maverick in providing health care for people. He has voted against -- he voted including another 3.6 million children in coverage of the existing health care plan, when he voted in the United States Senate. He's not been a maverick when it comes to education. He has not supported tax cuts and significant changes for people being able to send their kids to college. He's not been a maverick on the war. He's not been a maverick on virtually anything that genuinely affects the things that people really talk about around their kitchen table. Can we send -- can we get Mom's MRI? Can we send Mary back to school next semester? We can't -- we can't make it. How are we going to heat the … house this winter? He voted against even providing for what they call LIHEAP, for assistance to people, with oil prices going through the roof in the winter. So maverick he is not on the important, critical issues that affect people at that kitchen table."

A Republican named Sarah Palin tried to convince Americans that she was running on a populist ticket.

But Joe Biden reminded the voters sitting at those kitchen tables, in those small houses with big mortgages, that the man who heads that ticket, a Republican named John McCain, is not on their side.

And, in so doing, Biden did not merely score a debating point. He did what a vice presidential candidate is supposed to do. He helped the man who heads his ticket, a Democrat named Barack Obama, stake a significantly stronger claim on the presidency.

Comments (92)

1. People who are pro-Palin were thrilled. People who hate Palin were thrilled. And to people on the fence, Palin didn't lose ground.

   Advantage Palin. Photo finish.

   Posted by freiheit1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:45am

2. That is a solid review of the debate I saw. By responding to her populist jingo touchstone points with substantive, yet polite laying bare of McCain's record, Biden won the transcript debate and maybe the TV audience as well.

   It is only the rabid, disposable News media of this world that dilute the attractive truthes Obama and Biden keep highlighting: that taxing high earners is good and caring policy, with at least 9 out of 10 voters unaffected by those taxes.

   Then it is only rhetoric, political correctness and self-interests of the chattering elites that preserves the stance McCain and Palin are actually contributing to when it comes to budgets.

   Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:47am

3. Biden didn't lose, Palin didn't fall on her face. End of story: advantage goes to Obama. Grandpa needed a game changer at this point, he didn't even come close to that. Little to no change in the polls. Grandpa needs a huge next debate.

   Posted by yutsano at 10/03/2008 @ 12:49am

4. It is easy to suspect that a TV culture will vote on TV culture values. Palin is easy to look at, if you ignore her smile-impulse debating style. Do people imagine she would be better in the VP role than the intelligent old guy whose eyes are a bit close together (like GWBs ironically)? Palin has the intonation and polished voice to suit her role as one who woos a TV audience.

   Biden has the gravitas backed by clear expertise in his field and likely portfolios. Why oh why is it perceived by swung voters to be a less desirable thing for a political representative to be educated and thoughtful?

   Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:53am

5. Rambo was or is a maverick to some. Is that an admirable quality to such highly cultured conservatives? Shall we all hope for a new cross between a well-dressed John Wayne and a reinvigorated Eisenhower?

   As if the debate on Bush and Cheney's war in Iraq was somehow controlled by a "Socialist" consensus, McCain boosting for more war, for at least 4 more years, means he is little more than an Alamo-style 'maverick'.

   Independent thinking is what politicians display when they go off rehearsed positions and state what their opinion and best guess policies will be when caught in the moment. Biden did better at this than Palin. He doesn't need any defending. By the way, in what historic rationale does the "right" "love liberty" more than the "left"? Don't you know Orwell and other early anti-Stalinists supported the same catalogue of liberties we so-called 'leftists' support. Letting inherited wealth "self-regulate itself" may be one of the right's 'loved liberties', but it is hardly worth voting in more of the same...

   Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 01:34am

6. "so that they could cheer her "success" without sounding entirely ridiculous."

   that's your best line in a long time, mr. nichols......

   Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:15am

7. While we're quoting Jefferson, here's a few of my favorites:

   "They [preachers] dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live." --Thomas Jefferson

   "I have recently been examining all the known superstitions of the world, and do not find in our particular superstition (Christianity) one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology." -- Thomas Jefferson

   "The clergy believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly; for I have sworn upon the altar of God eternal hostility against any form of tyranny known to the mind of man." --Thomas Jefferson

   "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance, of which their political as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes." Thomas Jefferson

   Posted by Balrog at 10/03/2008 @ 02:18am

8. It is a liberty to be able to walk or stumble in to a hospital and get an injury or condition dealt with. In some countries, your bank balance determines whether your blood will keep dripping on the street, in the bus, or in the waiting room.

   It is a liberty to go to a school where tax dollars make education viable, not threatening. It is the reverse of liberty to maintain opportunity only for those who inherit it.

   Secret ballots for union official elections and for industrial action are accepted by all the lefties I know. Is that not a liberty? Not having any access to a viable collective bargaining capacity seems a deprivation of liberty.

   It would surely be a liberty for someone who did have to work most of their life, without inherited capital or credit rating, to retire on a livable state-provided allowance. Or is investment the only portfolio aged folk should have access to?

   "killing children", writes 'lvlibertyz' is what we who oppose family and other sexual violence; and support any pregnant females right to choose whether the means of her pregnancy require decades or lifelong commitment to child-rearing in conditions where the State underfunds child-care.

   Does the liberty to choose time of parenthood trump liberty to strike down as "collateral damage" children who live near villages used as shelter by guerillas or insurgents/"terrorist fighters"? That is killing children, is it not? An individual, a couple, a family, a community might have views on timing and options for termination of unplanned and unwanted pregnancy. Your god may bless under 90-day old foetuses, but Republican budgets do not (unless strangled social programmes can rely on cake-stalls for funding). Jefferson mentions "mouth of labour" not mouths of capital. Insider-trading injures...

   Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 02:21am

9. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:18am

   WASILLA -- Settlement is in sight on a 9-year-old court battle over land on which Wasilla's Multi-Use Sports Complex is built.

   Anchorage Superior Court Judge Peter Michalski on Monday signed an order giving developer Gary Lundgren $314,739 in attorney fees and court costs in an EMINENT DOMAIN case the city filed against Lundgren's land in December 2002. In EMINENT DOMAIN cases, the plaintiff typically pays the defendants' court fees.

   Combined with $837,000 that the city paid last year for the raw land and another $362,000 in interest payments paid in December 2007, the total price tag for the 80 acres comes to $1.5 million.

   City attorney Tom Klinkner, with Birch, Horton, Bittner and Cherot, last year estimated that the city paid his firm about $250,000 more to litigate the case.

   That's not a bad deal. Lundgren had valued the property at about $2.4 million, said Greg Miller, the attorney with Birch, Horton, Bittner and Cherot who has been arguing the case on behalf of the City of Wasilla since 2005.

   Still it's a lot more than the roughly $125,000 the city would have paid in 1998 if it had closed a deal to buy the property outright.

   ≤≤≤≤≥≥≥≥

   is this the kind a "experience" you value?

   Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:27am

10. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:50am

    oooh,

    dueling jefferson!

    "No generation has a right to contract debts greater than can be paid off during the course of its own existence"

    reagan doubled the debt.

    bush doubled the debt.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:34am

11. eminant domain [sic]

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:50am

    WASILLA -- Settlement is in sight on a 9-year-old court battle over land on which Wasilla's Multi-Use Sports Complex is built.

    Anchorage Superior Court Judge Peter Michalski on Monday signed an order giving developer Gary Lundgren $314,739 in attorney fees and court costs in an EMINENT DOMAIN case the city filed against Lundgren's land in December 2002. In EMINENT DOMAIN cases, the plaintiff typically pays the defendants' court fees.

    ha ha!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:37am

12. why do you want to murder so many innocent children and deprive them of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:50am

    no way!

    let them grow a little so you can blow off their limbs with the rev. larry clusterbomb.

    AND cancerize them with your d.u.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:40am

13. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:50am

    Even if McCain wins (let's just pretend it's still possible), y'all folks on the right'll sher darn be tinkered when he sells the hard-right and their free-trade religion down the river. His economic advisors are aware of the effects of deregulation on a devastatingly fragile economy. They should; they and their cohorts have been exploiting fragile economies for decades. This is my back-up prediction-- for in case my first prediction doesn't happen!

    Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:41am

14. Can youse get to Twain as well? I'm getting a well-rounded education here myself. I wish he could have written on that curious legacy of Nixon-Reagan-Bush since ww2.

    I'll enjoy all this liberty talk upon return...thanks, bye.

    Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 02:41am

15. "Instead of funding issues of paper on the hypothecation of specific redeeming taxes (the only method of anticipating, in a time of war, the resources of times of peace, tested by the experience of nations), we are trusting to tricks of jugglers on the cards, to the illusions of banking schemes for the resources of the war, and for the cure of colic to inflations of more wind."

    TAKE THAT MR. TAX CUT!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:41am

16. "Equal and exact justice to all men, of whatever state or persuasion, religious or political; peace, commerce, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none...Freedom of religion; freedom of the press, and freedom of person under the protection of the habeus corpus, and trial by juries impartially selected. These principles form the bright constellation which has gone before us, and guided our steps through an age of revolution and reformation. The wisdom of our sages and the blood of our heroes have been devoted to their attainment. They should be the creed of our political faith, the text of civil instruction, the touchstone by which we try the services of those we trust; and should we wander from them in moments of error or alarm, let us hasten to retrace our steps and to regain the road which alone leads to peace, liberty, and safety."

    LIV, YOU HAVE BEEN SMITTEN.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:44am

17. If you love liberty so much, why do you want to murder so many innocent children and deprive them of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

    If you love liberty so much, why do most liberals mock and try to restrict religious freedom by Christians in this country? Do you not approve of the 1st amendment?

    *Brilliant observations of mr/mrs Liberty retard another otherwise thoughtful blog.

    Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 02:48am

18. Can youse get to Twain as well? I'm getting a well-rounded education here myself. I wish he could have written on that curious legacy of Nixon-Reagan-Bush since ww2.

    Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 02:41am

    wow. imagine twain on bush.......

    "Against our traditions we are now entering upon an unjust and trivial war, a war against a helpless people, and for a base object -- robbery. At first our citizens spoke out against this thing, by an impulse natural to their training. Today they have turned, and their voice is the other way. What caused the change? Merely a politician's trick -- a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor -- none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, "Our Country, right or wrong," and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:50am

19. U go Bazdicoot!

    Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 02:52am

20. U go 2 Frosty Zoom! Is that a real Twain quote? Great imitation otherwise, and timely....

    Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 02:58am

21. wish i could take credit.

    that's the real deal......

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 03:05am

22. Wonder what the "wrong side of the divide" is? McCain said nada about that Senate bill ripe with earmark pork. Not a word. And since they are whistling in the dark and claim if they did nothing, nothing might happen or if they cut a check for 700 billion plus the billions the fed has already pumped and still it does nothing, what did McCain have to lose by voting against it? That might have been just the move to underscore that populist maverick identity he tries to project and he could've harnessed the populist momentum against the bailout-give-away the rest were desperately trying to deny, ignore or pay lip service to. Ultimately it tells you where his true allegiance lies--and that he is really a coward.

    Posted by Lil at 10/03/2008 @ 06:54am

23. I watched attentively the Biden/Palin debate. She was to cute by to much. She was terribly parochial and sounded like she was running for Miss. Moose Burger of Wasilla. No matter the subject she had that shit eating grin which seemed frequently inappropriate for the subject and the answer. She rarely answered the question and her separation from George was; "There you go again old Joe looking backwards. She was so backward looking that she seemed like she was traveling in ever decreasing circles at ever increasing speed.

    Posted by lachatte at 10/03/2008 @ 07:38am

24. That i haven't run into a commentator yet who mentioned Palin's monsterous claim that she'd like more power for the vice-president in the mode of Dick Cheney says as much about the American electorate as it does her. Utterly chilling, and the true moment of last night's debate.

    Biden, who mentioned article I of the constitution,and rightly so, should look at section 8 of that article himself, and explain his vote on "war resolutions" and "interventions", a clear violation of that clause.

    Posted by elvisd at 10/03/2008 @ 08:07am

25. I felt as though I was watching Biden debate a middle schooler . . . not to discount middle schoolers . . . If I want desperate attempts at cute comebacks that have been studied way too hard, I'll watch a sitcom. I am the single mother receiving no child support from my former spouse, sitting at that table fretting over making ends meet every month. I am that school-teacher mother putting three children through parochial school because of my own personal need to keep my children on a path I chose, myself, not to follow. But gosh darn it, Joe, if talking down to middle America is what it takes to get your party elected to office, shucks, I think I'll write me a ticket, too, and just throw my ole' hat in the ring. Get real. I was embarrassed as a woman to see her struggle so badly. There was no debate. Joe Biden demonstrated great restraint while polishing the issues at hand, and Sarah Palin demonstrated yet another terrible choice John McCain has made over and over again.

    Posted by confam4 at 10/03/2008 @ 08:07am

26. I see that Buchanan and Scarborough just can't except reality on the debate,even though the polls say that Biden won,they say the moderator was at fault.This went wrong ,that went right. On and on they go.

    Posted by eniobob at 10/03/2008 @ 08:20am

27. Posted by Balrog at 10/03/2008 @ 02:18am

    Thanks, Bal, for the Jefferson cites. Right on. So many countries destroyed by priests of any religion.

    As for yesterday's most significant political event, it was the McCain campaign's conceding battleground Michigan to Obama.

    GOP meltdown underway.

    So any good guesses from you lot re Obama's key cabinet picks?

    Posted by sloper at 10/03/2008 @ 08:23am

28. What I find amazing is...

    in their zeal to defend Palin (and support their ticket natch)...

    that the Hard Right around here DOESN'T MIND that she (and McCain too)...

    are trying to sound like DEMOCRATS!?!?!?!?

    I guess they realize how weak they are and will grasp any straw, even off their opponents' haystack!

    LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 08:56am

29. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:18am

    "McCain is a maverick in upholding the constitution ..." Funny though his running mate, Mrs Palin wants to take the Cheney 4th-branch-of-government Constitutional Shredding party to a whole new level.

    As to his "war maverick" persona .. you mean the war against Iraq .. a nation that did nothing to the US, that was no threat per the inspectors we sent there to assess the threat? Boy, what a good decision it was to waste a trillion dollars there, huh? So if McCain "...would rather lose the election than lose the war." I say let's help him out by not electing him. Then he can concentrate on what he really wants to do!

    As for Tuesday ... Gramps is gonna need to crush up a coupla Viagra in his Metamucil to get his steam up methinks.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 10/03/2008 @ 09:12am

30. "Well, it just shows that as bright as Jefferson was, he was truly ignorant of some things."

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 02:26am

    Therefore we will only repeat the quotes that suit our respective agendas.

    Much like the Bible.

    Posted by drhammer at 10/03/2008 @ 09:47am

31. I concur with John's "recap" of yesterdays VP debate. Senator Biden won the debate clearly and presented himself as a worthy VP candidate. Governor Palin did seem as ridiculous as seen in previous interviews, however her incompetence last night on issues (and having "no" experience whatsoever...) was clearly evident.

    What she brought to the debate was the same message McCain brought to his debate last week.......nothing. Palin had no facts and no substance in her remarks in refuting statements made by Biden (deregulation..etc.). Simply put Palin clearly showed yet again how people who are incompetent are put into positions of authority, people clearly who should not be in those positions.

    Anyone who viewed the debates with objectivity, can clearly see the disaster that would befall America if we allowed two deceitful, vile and incompetent individuals like McCain and Palin to govern our country. Senator Biden again clearly won the debate, and Palin again showed her lack of experience and "rehearsed" and recycled GOP message.

    Posted by rayven at 10/03/2008 @ 09:53am

32. lvliberty-Liberals do not want to restrict liberty nor have you ever been able to show that that is the case other to say so.Your nonsense about liberals and Christianity is quite paranoid and what you want to see so you see it just as you twist what people say on here in order to have everyone fit into your groupings where you assign everyone beliefs whether they have them or not.You on the right murder many innocent children,but excuse it by calling them collateral damage.Providing people with health insurance does not end liberty nor does any of the rest of the stuff you mentioned despite the spin you put on it.You have a very limited world view.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 09:57am

33. I watched the vice-presidential debate last night. Except it wasn't a debate. Let's just pretend Gwen Ifill set up a tennis match between Biden and Palin. Joe Biden showed up with a racket and ball. Sarah Palin came with a basketball and shot baskets while Ifill and Biden played tennis.

    Posted by Yanni at 10/03/2008 @ 10:01am

34. Look, in a little over 2 hours from now....

    Limbaugh will be finishing his "first hour monologue" and after giving the local Right their talking points, I'm sure we'll learn that "Biden lied his ass off" and "Sarah proved she's a match for him or any person, and once again proved how smart and QUALIFIED she is"....

    and then....

    the polling will come in....LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 10:14am

35. TWO WRONGS MAKE A RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT Spoken by a presidential candidate to his running mate after a debate

    Your match before the TV throng tonight, Was to show if I was wrong or right In my selecting you to ride along, In hopes that you'd turn out more right than wrong.

    You showed us all that you are strong with fight And that you try to be less wrong than right. But I am still prepared to smite the gong If you ever get the Bill of Rights all wrong.

    www.newsandverse.com Light verse, ripped from the headlines

    Posted by newsandverse at 10/03/2008 @ 10:42am

36. What little I heard of the debate caused me to smile. A republican pick for VP railing against "the greed on Wall Street"! Too rich!

    ---

    LIBERTY- can you site me an example of a "leftist" keeping a christian from practicing their religion in their home or place of worship?

    The SCOTUS case you write about could not have passed without votes from republican appointed Supremes. More Supremes have been appointed by repubs than dems.

    O'Connor- Reagan

    Stevens- Ford

    Scalia- Reagan

    Kennedy- Reagan

    Souter- Bush

    Thomas- Bush

    Breyer- Clinton

    Ginsburg- Clinton

    70% of circuit court judges were appointed by republcans.

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 10:43am

37. Well, the polls are in, at least from CBS and CNN.

    Both show a clear Biden win with the public and the CBS poll is particularly interesting. It shows Palin as having improved a bit from expectations (but really, could they have been lower?) but still unable to muster any real advance in the perception of her readiness to step in as president. And this was a poll of undecided viewers, so a real test of the two sides.

    Basically, the consensus that's building outside of the right-wing noise machine is that Palin didn't stumble openly but sounded like a talking-point machine and didn't bother to answer many of the questions. The polling seems to bear that out with the general public.

    Here are the links to the polls in question:

    CNN story http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/10/03/ debate.poll/index.html

    CBS story http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/03/ politics/2008debates/main4497138.shtml

    CBS polling document (.pdf) http://www.cbsnews.com/htdocs/pdf/ 2008VPDebate_poll.pdf

    Posted by Stwriley at 10/03/2008 @ 10:52am

38. the polling will come in....LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 10:14am

    and then we'll be talking BAILOUT!

    and this debate will be a vague, irritating memory.

    october is a very long month this year.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 10:52am

39. Palin's habit of deciding not to answer a question for which she has no answer but go onto one with prepared talking points is outrageous.

    We have seen what happens when someone tells the president something and he-- the decider no less-- ignores it: When Bush sat in a Florida classroom holding "My Pet Goat" upsidedown, pretending to read and was informed by whisper that the country was being attacked, he ignored the question and decidedb to sit there for 20 minutres while America was being destroyed.

    Palin seems confident in her folksy betcha irritating dangerous manner is telling America that she would have reacted in the same way. Golly gee wink.

    Posted by mystic at 10/03/2008 @ 10:54am

40. I think McCain is willing to let Obama inherit the Bush mess. He is pulling out of MI, and then their is his poor VP pick.

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 11:06am

41. I think the reviews on Palin's performance were pre-arranged. They dumbed her down, expectations all but were non existant- so to anyone that noticed she didnt burst into flames...it was said she exceeded expectations. Well I feel that is rather easy to do when you don't have any set upon you!

    The fact is, at the end of the day- she had no SUBSTANCE. Joe Biden had FACTS...information applying to his and Obama's reasoning for this or that... she had her punch lines- her speech talking points. I think she was a little testy- and snippy towards Biden and he didnt fall for it not once. He stuck to his person of attack- John McCain, while also rebutting her false claims against Obama. The polls state it loud and clear- Biden won.

    The right wingers will grasp at anything at this point to pat her on the back. The scariest to me- was her agreement with Cheney on the powers of VP. The thought that anyone would openly admit to agreeing with Cheney in and of itself is STUPID. Bad move on her I see that in an ad near you really soon.

    Face it...McCain re-stimulated his existing base- Palin did not pull anyone from the fence to their side based on that performance last night. Thats what they needed to do and they didnt do it.

    I think Biden did an excellent job and far exceeded what we Dems were hoping for. He is known for his gaffes...but I think we all breathed a sigh of relief when he blew her out of the water on every topic...I choose substance and knowledge over a soccer mom persona thats only been at this for 5 weeks... anyday!!

    Obama/Biden 08!

    Posted by DanaNY at 10/03/2008 @ 11:10am

42. Posted by mystic at 10/03/2008 @ 10:54am

    As we can see here almost daily, the neo-cons are focused on their theories. Ongoing changing events will not cause them to change direction.

    Good economy (say, if the "fundamentals are sound")- tax cuts, less regulation

    Economy sours- tax cuts less regulation

    Health care- tax cuts, less regs

    War- tax cuts, less oversight and regs,

    war going bad- tax cuts and less regs,

    unemployment up- tax cuts less regs

    employment tight for employers looking for skilled help- tax cuts, less reg.

    banking wants less taxes and regs, ok, the cons do it.

    banking goes sour under the rules the bank wrote, give em tax cuts and less regulation., along with borrowed money to be paid back by the next generation.

    then however we enter the Palin flip flop universe, for earmarks before she was against them, etc. Including talking about the greed on Wall Street while running as a republican from the party that tells us Wall Street is the bestest, goodest place in America because they "produce" while the rest of us do nothing

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 11:15am

43. Darin, still waiting for you to explain to me why, if the $700,000,000,000 Wall Street bailout is such a good deal for taxpayers, private capitol has not scooped up the debt of their peers.

    do you agree with Sarah that Wall Street is corrupt and greedy? And that Washington, under the leadership of George W. Bush and 6 years of republican control of congress, is also corrupt and ineffective, requiring 2 MaveriKs to come in and fix it?

    Off to run some errands. Will check in later.

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 11:21am

44. Am I crazy. I thought a fundamental Republican Value was that of State's Rights. I could have sworn I heard Palin say that she wanted to blur the invisible lines between states when it came to Health Care. Why I agree that is probably a good idea, it seems quite "Democratic"

    Posted by maybedan at 10/03/2008 @ 11:29am

45. BTW, since the fundamentals went south and the socialization of capitol and the nationalization of banks has risen as the "natural and best remedy" to the incompetence on Wall Street...has anyone seen JOMMAMA?

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 11:30am

46. Well, it just shows that as bright as Jefferson was, he was truly ignorant of some things.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 02:26am

    Let's see. Thomas Jefferson or Liver folks. Which one would you take advice from?! I think Jefferson wins by a photo finish to quote freiheit1.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/03/2008 @ 11:31am

47. 1) Debate will be a draw. I'd give Biden a slightly narrow win on points due to a much smoother delivery.----Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/03/2008 @ 11:13am

    So it's not a "draw" if you given Biden the edge on points....is it?

    BTW, the CNN polling was pretty solidly a stomping of the Divine Miss P....51-39%.

    Of course they ARE part of the "Vast Liberal/Marxist/Communist/Terrorist-Loving Media Who Hate Women"....so better discount that!

    heheh

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 12:11pm

48. The short of it is, she did better than expected but she seemed all too "briefed". Again she sounded to much like she was reading a book instead of seeming adaptive and knowledgeable. When Biden called her on her lies she wasn't able to adapt her answer to back them up she just repeated the same exact thing. When Biden called McCain out she wasn't able to adapt her answers to defend him. Instead she kept trying to repeat maverick and hero. She did Ok but Biden showed her what it is to debate someone who has been on the Senate floor for as long as he has.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:18pm

49. Sarah Palin sounded like a Parrot repeated memorized attacks and talking points.

    Joe Biden destroyed every argument Sarah Palin attempted to make. She refused to answer several questions and danced around those she did. Her performance amounted to acting out a pre-determined style and attack agenda. If there was no one else in the room (no opponent or moderator), Sarah Palin's comments would all still play just fine.

    If you look at the transcript, Palin sounds like an old, tired, broken record.

    Joe Biden succeeded on three fronts:

    1) He did not overwhelm, attack or talk down to Sarah Palin

    2) He kept his comments on the issues and targeted John McCain

    3) He was respectful to his opponent and managed to help his running mate, neither of which Sarah Palin did

    When Joe Biden got emotional about raising his kids, Sarah Palin dove straight into her pre-programmed propaganda. This was a straight shut-out with Joe Biden delivering a crushing defeat to the McCain Ticket, 3 to Zip!

    Posted by CrushInfamy at 10/03/2008 @ 12:29pm

50. I find it interesting that the bar has been lowered so much that anything short of Sarah being wheeled out of the debate on a stretcher means she 'won'.

    Posted by marckeith at 10/03/2008 @ 12:31pm

51. Posted by marckeith at 10/03/2008 @ 12:31pm

    I expressed the same thoughts on another thread and agree with you completely.

    Palin showed she is not a total disaster, but she did nothing to disprove that she is an amateur, in way over her head. She was very fortunate that the format did not allow for much "debating." Hell, even I could get up there and talk only about the three or four things I am most comfortable with, dodge any other topics, and wink incessantly.

    Her only strategy it seems is to campaign like she is an actress playing the role in a script given to her -- and to stick to it at all costs. It might get her an award, but it certainly does not inspire a lot of confidence in her abilities to be an effective (or even competent) executive when there is no script.

    Although she made the choice and could have easily turned it down, I feel sympathy for the position she is in.

    Posted by Hman23 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:47pm

52. "If you as a liberal love liberty so much, why do you insist then that Americans surrender their freedom of choice on healthcare, education, union membership, retirement, eminant domain (liberal members of SCOTUS)."

    I wasn't aware that liberals want to ban a choice on these things. While I am not of the liberal camp, their approach, at least for liberals as they are in The Nation, is that you can choose between one run of, by and for We the People or one run by, of, and for corporate profits. As to eminent domain, that actually was a decision any real conservative should approve as it said this is a matter for legislatures not courts. I guess if it was something like abortion, you would call it legislating from the bench. But since you didn't like it, you change your principles.

    If you love liberty so much, why do you want to murder so many innocent children and deprive them of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness?

    I do not want to do this to the children of Iraq and Afghanistan. Nor to US soldiers. Glad we can agree on this.

    If you love liberty so much, why do most liberals mock and try to restrict religious freedom by Christians in this country? Do you not approve of the 1st amendment?

    Mocking something has nothing to do with government restriction of religion, and it should roll off people committed to their views like water off a duck. Religious freedom and civil freedom are two different concepts, hence the separation. Since I approve of the First Amendment, I want all religious groups to either stay out of politics or pay taxes if they get involved.

    Posted by onthehelm at 10/03/2008 @ 12:48pm

53. Sure, Liberty, because the alternative strategy of "you are either with us or against us" has been working out so well.

    Posted by Hman23 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:02pm

54. lvlibrty-As always,you show your partisan ignorance and assume that republicans are honest because you ignore it when they lie or excuse it as just being a mistake..They all lie,make mistakes,or do a bit of truth stretching.You need to get out of your partisan fantasy world and into reality.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 1:05pm

55. Mocking something has nothing to do with government restriction of religion, and it should roll off people committed to their views like water off a duck. Religious freedom and civil freedom are two different concepts, hence the separation. Since I approve of the First Amendment, I want all religious groups to either stay out of politics or pay taxes if they get involved.

    Posted by onthehelm at 10/03/2008 @ 12:48pm

    Separation of church and state is there for a reason.

    One is to keep the majority from forcing their version of whatever religion down other peoples' throats.

    Another is that back in the day of the monarachy with God, King and country, the royal families were supposed to have been chosen by God and therefore anything they chose to do was Godly be it slaughtering innocents on a whim or taking over other countries.

    A 2 month old fetus is hardly a functioning person. With all of the misery in the world including children starving to death that are out of them womb, your efforts to help the innocent children would be better served helping the ones that are presently starving to death versus ranting the right wing hot button line.

    In my small way, I did something about children living in bad conditions. Do something to help the living (nearly dead, but living), quit fighting battles over the unborn while millions of children are starving to death and die of starvation and disease.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:06pm

56. Sure, Liberty, because the alternative strategy of "you are either with us or against us" has been working out so well.

    Posted by Hman23 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:02pm

    Liver is a most illogical person. He bitches and whines about taxes, but supports his beautiful military machine to the hilt.

    10 billion a month on Iraq is being spent, but Liver doesn't think the children of this nation are worthy of any of that money, only defending Israel and of course protecting international business interests with tax payer dollars is his wet dream.

    The neocons are a shallow as a friggin puddle of water. They think capitalism is the answer to anything (with the exception of the military because it uses a shitload of money...but that's alright in their eyes. Forcing the neocon ways upon other is the model they think Jesus brought down straight from the heavens.

    They are so stupid that they don't know that they are pawns of the ultra wealthy and are screwing themselves and their fellow Americans down the drain. Take Halliburton for example. Things going bad for them here, no problem, they'll just move their headquarters to Dubai.

    Liver is nothing more than Rush Limbaugh posing in pastor robes and nothing more.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:19pm

57. According to conservatives: Socialism is good only for caring for the rich. The rest of America should only march the drum of the rich by paying their taxes and giving up their rights as the rich see fit...

    Does anyone else see something wrong with this

    Posted by malmassa at 10/03/2008 @ 1:22pm

58. Mayor of Nowheresville to perky gubernatorial fireplug, only to later become, thanks to McCain's appalling judgment, the most insulting caricature of female empowerment in modern history who, as the VP debate painfully revealed, still knows not a single substantive thing about American domestic or foreign policy, Was this woman capable of completing an extemporaneous paragraph -- a collection of sentences with subjects, verbs, objects and, if possible, an actual meaning? By the end of her opening answers, it was clear she would meet the test. " Well, that settles it: she's qualified to be president, you betcha!

    source: Mark Morford/David Brooks

    Posted by Chanel at 10/03/2008 @ 1:45pm

59. lvliberty-It's interesting how you call everyone liars,but when that finger is pointed at you you have a tantrum,but then turn around continue to call everyone else liars.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 1:49pm

60. Who here is an avid supporter of Biden as VP pick? I am lukewarm to him, there is a lot about his record that gives me serious pause. His, and I think all of the candidates, stance on Israel and it's apartheid regime and his links to the credit industry for starters.

    LIVER, can you say the same about Palin?

    After watching her can you describe her stances on international affairs?

    Can you cite me an example of Christians being denied their faith in their homes or places of worship by lefties?

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 2:06pm

61. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:56pm

    how much of the countries wealth does the top 40% own?

    -The bottom 40% paid a negative 3.8% (they got back more money than they paid in)-

    sounds like Alaska.

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 2:09pm

62. Darin, you did not answer the question. If it is such a good deal, why aren't the private sector investors stepping up?

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 2:29pm

63. "If you love liberty so much, why do most liberals mock and try to restrict religious freedom by Christians in this country?"-LARRY

    Can you cite me an example of liberals restricting Christians freedom to practice their faith in their homes and churches?

    Freedom of speech means I can mock you if I wish. Don't like it?... move.

    If you think flying horses are going to come down from the sky, if you think prophecy is a valid method of reasoning towards the future, if you are going to pick and choose which scripture you are going to abide by and ignore others, perhaps you should accept that you are going to be challenged.

    Posted by crabwalk at 10/03/2008 @ 2:37pm

64. The military and war is the required mandate of the Federal Govt.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:46pm

    and

    that's

    why

    the

    economy

    is

    destroyed

    and

    the

    world

    is

    fed

    up!

    scratch, larry, scratch.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 2:37pm

65. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:51pm

    "How do you know when a Democrat is lying? You can see their lips move."

    Actually LVL. That quote is, "How do you know when a POLITICIAN is lying.".

    You can spin as much as you want LVL. Palin repeated the same EXACT lies that have ben constantly told and disproven and was non-adaptive. She gave some answers that I found very disturbing which I addressed on another board. Especially when she said Vive Presidential power needs to be expanded, right as she is about to potentially take office.

    http://tinyurl.com/4fpela

    There are all the lies told last night LVL. Palin lied just as much. So you coming on here claiming that she told the truth and Biden lied is pure partisan stupidity. Anyone could have pointed out lie after lie that they both told. Biden was just believable whereas Palin was scripted.

    I notice you are VERY quick to ignore the lies of your candidate and try to build up the ones of the opposing side. McCain has lied constantly throughout this election about everything. So you coming on here trying to play up Biden as a liar is hilarious. Maybe that would work on a right wing board where you are just throwing chum to the masses who are actually deluded enough to believe the filth that comes from your fingers. But here you are looked at as nothing but another brain-washed neo-con loon.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:38pm

66. Top 1% 40% of Income taxes Top 5% 60% of Income Taxes Top 10% 71% of Income Taxes Top 25% 86% of Income Taxes According to the CBO (Congressional Budget Office) The bottom 40% paid a negative 3.8% (they got back more money than they paid in) The top 40% paid 99.4% of income taxes Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:56pm

    Odd. The top 1% control something like 90% of the American wealth yet they only pay 40% of the income taxes? Seems cheap to me? Should they pay their equal amount in wealth. If you control 90% of the income doesn't that mean you should pay 90% of the income taxes?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:43pm

67. I have been against the bailout plans from the beginning (and have posted that on multiple threads), so your attempt to link me with that is not valid.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:46pm

    but you are for the conditions that cause the need for it!

    sheesh.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 2:43pm

68. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:55pm

    Actually he never denied that he didn't say that. What he said was that 6 major state figures also agreed with him that we need to meet with them if I remember correctly. Including Henry Kissinger.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:46pm

69. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! Thank you, sir. Seriously. Totally lightened my mood. Even when you get (as the kids call it) uber-pwned, you still try to find a way to weasel out of it. As crazy as I think you are, I really do have to admire your ability to keep on trucking. Posted by madlib at 10/03/2008 @ 1:49pm

    It's exactly the same as when he quotes liberal sources then says they are wrong about everything else. He cherry picks what he wants to believe.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:48pm

70. Palin proved she was qualified... to manage a Dennys at least... Biden seriously outclassed her if you use the same criteria to judge them. It looked like the Red Sox playing a AA team.

    Posted by Bsmit at 10/03/2008 @ 2:48pm

71. Biden lied about Obama's vote on tax increases (vote March 13, 2008) "The Republican presidential nominee-in-waiting, Senator McCain, voted for the full roster of Bush tax cuts. Rivals Senator Clinton and Senator Obama both voted against them. The developments came as the Senate began a full day of votes on a $3 trillion Democratic budget blueprint for 2009. The nonbinding plan envisions a balanced budget in four years and promises generous increases for many domestic programs, but achieves those goals only by assuming major tax increases when Bush's tax cuts expire. Mr. Obama and Mrs. Clinton both promise to reverse Mr. Bush's tax cuts for wealthier taxpayers, but the Democratic budget they'll be voting for would allow income tax rates to go up on individuals making as little as $31,850 and couples earning $63,700 or more. http://tinyurl.com/52pm7s more to come Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:51pm

    Also. You want to talk about a lie? How about Palin's well worn lie about Obama raising everyones taxes. It has been disproven multiple times yet she claimed it once again. Don't even come here trying to talk about Biden's lies while you try to completely ignore Palin's well worn and completely disproven lies.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:49pm

72. imagine u.s. foreign policy if all of michigan's muslims moved to florida......

    Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 2:50pm

73. How about Palin lie about how much we spend on Oil a year? She said 700 billion dollars to hostile nations. we pay 568 billion a year. On top of that we pay a third of that to the UK, Canada and Mexico so it's another lie.

    I am sure you are happy to her talk about global warming and how it's a problem that needs to be addressed. I am sure that played well with the right wing.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 2:57pm

74. I have been against the bailout plans from the beginning (and have posted that on multiple threads), so your attempt to link me with that is not valid.----Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:46pm

    Yet strangely he focuses almost ALL his attacks on Democrats...but never the two men who originally proposed it...

    Bush and Paulson?!??!?!? (Which by the way, is EXACTLY what Limbaugh does these days....acts like Bush never even ASKED for a bail-out!...LOL)

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 2:59pm

75. Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 2:59pm

    That's because he is a brainwashed partisan idiot who can't tell the truth to save his life. He just repeats his life's canard that everything wrong with the US is the Democrats fault. The very fact that he points out Biden's lies while ignore Palin's is more proof of it. The fact that he butchered a quote to try to back up his stupid partisanship is even more proof of that. He keeps spinning and will soon spin his own head right off.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 3:07pm

76. I'm also sure that the two-state solution in Israel played well with your righties LVL.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 3:19pm

77. I hate her and frankly, I am not thrilled. I am however amazed that she can go on national television and act like a backwoods Barbie and not expect people to be offended. Her speech is silly and embarrassing. Why is it that she doesn't sound "folksy" when she was a sportscaster? How great would it be to have her "blessing the hearts" of world leaders in a public forum someday? It's frightening and what's worse, some of you are falling for it. I will say-she's entertaining...but so is watching a car accident.

    Posted by ncvoter1968 at 10/03/2008 @ 3:23pm

78. lvliberty-I'm sorry to point out your hypocrisy,again,but I must.You have put down others religious beliefs and told people on the left that you would love it if they left America.You do the same things that you accuse the left of doing.Get those logs out of your eyes.While there are a handful of far left commies that would like to deny freedom of religion there are only a very few of them.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 3:25pm

79. Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 3:25pm

    Let's quote it exactly, IN...

    "And why behold you the mote that is in your brother's eye, but consider not the beam that is in your own eye?"

    (I used AMERICAN King James...after all, can't trust those Limeys!....heheh)

    Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 3:28pm

80. mask-Beam does sound better than logs.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 3:48pm

81. Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 3:48pm

    The reason LVL thinks the way he does is because he believes all other religions are attacking his to some degree. So he believes that he must defend himself. He never stops to think that maybe the reason the other religions seem like their attacking him is because they are defending themselves against his attacks.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/03/2008 @ 3:54pm

82. Palin looked like she was in a beauty pagent. Even smiling while she was speaking about, "What if you became president?" That is morbid and sick. Palin and McCain are a terrible ticket because he is just using her because she is a woman. Obviously she has no intelligence when it comes to politics because she has no idea what the role of a Vice President is. I give thanks to Biden for calling out the "Dangerous" Dick cheney, because I don't mind living in a socialist society (hopefully Obama/Biden will allow us to want to live in order to experiance life with our fellow Americans, not just watch it fly by in bills and material goods)but I do mind living in a fachist dictatorship...

    Posted by jtl at 10/03/2008 @ 4:25pm

83. There's a great essay by Mia Nutick on why the "Joe Six-pack" language doesn't actually connect with those voters: http://www.canow.org/canoworg/2008/10/hey-there-joe-s.html

    Posted by canow at 10/03/2008 @ 5:46pm

84. Can anyone point me to any specific legislation Obama, McCain, Biden or Palin have authored/passed that redirects any of the gasoline tax we currently pay on each gallon to break America's dependence on OPEC? Shouldn't OPEC as a producer of the product causing so much environmental damage pay for the environmental imapct of their product?

    Posted by JonK812 at 10/03/2008 @ 6:27pm

85. What we need is an environmental tax (or increasing it if exists) on cars, gasoline, airlines, etc.... Then using that money we could fund research into renewable and other clean techs.

    On Israel, then your are completely right. The Nation has always been against increased violence in the I-P conflict and taken a brave and righteous stand against Israeli aggression. However, when the choice we are given is between McCain and Obama, then Israel wins either way... at least our nation will have a future with Obama that does not include rash wars and corruption, and perhaps , just perhaps , our politicians can take baby steps towards becoming unbiased observers in the a terrible conflict in the Middle East.

    The Nation is one of the few shining beacons of investigative journalism , information research, and mass media that are still independent and trusted by me to give the background truth. Thank you!

    Posted by malmassa at 10/03/2008 @ 7:25pm

86. "Am I crazy. I thought a fundamental Republican Value was that of State's Rights. I could have sworn I heard Palin say that she wanted to blur the invisible lines between states when it came to Health Care. Why I agree that is probably a good idea, it seems quite "Democratic""

    Posted by maybedan at 10/03/2008 @ 11:29am

    My understanding is this law is all about making it easier for foreign insurance companies to do business here. American insurance companies are used to the 50 state legislative maze. Eliminating this will entice foreign companies to do business here.

    More competition. Or more deregulation/outsourcing. Pick your spin.

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 10/03/2008 @ 8:08pm

87. "Furthermore, according to IRS figures:

    Top 1% 40% of Income taxes

    Top 5% 60% of Income Taxes

    Top 10% 71% of Income Taxes

    Top 25% 86% of Income Taxes

    According to the CBO (Congressional Budget Office)

    The bottom 40% paid a negative 3.8% (they got back more money than they paid in)

    The top 40% paid 99.4% of income taxes"

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 1:56 | ignore this person | warn this person

    And what percentage do these various demographics earn?

    Fun with numbers. Meaningless drivel.

    " The top 40% paid 99.4% of income taxes"

    Check what the top one percent pay vs. earn. The semi-rich (read small businessmen) pay the most, but the top one percent get off easy.

    Posted by Malcontent at 10/03/2008 @ 8:16pm

88. Ok, so Joe-boy played the pity ploy by dredging up ancient history about the loss of his first family. What he didn't say was that that personal tragedy happened 36 years ago, in another time and another world. Certainly another political climate.

    What he also didn't mention was that, while he was "sitting around the kitchen table wondering how to pay bills", he was making $45,000 a year as a Senator and lamenting the fact that he couldn't live on that.

    In 1972, the "Joe-sixpacks" of our country - that is, hard-working and better paid union workers - were raising families on $15,000. Any of them would have been glad to show that arrogant jerk how to live on his salary. Minimum wage at that time was somewhere around 2.75.

    Even today, Biden's salary sits at over $160,000, much more than any Joe-sixpack makes, and Biden has been right in there, voting for his own pay raises and perks, becoming a millionaire on the taxpayers' backs.

    I'd still be more than happy to show him how to live, and live well, on $45,000 a year.

    Posted by elephant4life at 10/04/2008 @ 06:25am

89. Senator Biden outclassed Sarah Palin PERIOD! He answered the questions informatively, she evaded to rehearsed talking points leaving every question unanswered. Her cutesy "betcha" and blatant insults were intolerable.

    Posted by TishiJo at 10/04/2008 @ 11:08am

90. I am a joe six pack, and I hate this woman with a passion. She has nothing in common with me. I only listen to the debate, so her winks were ignored. I would not have been able to watch it, hell my radio took dive a few times when she avoided the question. Ifill should have made her stay on topic and showed America what she really is a DIPSTICK.

    Posted by insanelayne at 10/05/2008 @ 11:28pm

91. Posted by JonK812 at 10/03/2008 @ 6:27pm

    Isn't that akin to holding Smith & Wesson accountable for murder? It has been our choice to use the energy resources as we have. Trying to hold OPEC accountable shirks the true responsibility - our own.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 10/06/2008 @ 07:38am

92. Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:50am |

    That's a great Twain quote.

    I also read bits of that in Lapham's Quarterly, if memory serves.

    The essay on that site was about history resonating over and over...Bush-whackoed nation under the Patriot Act meant a lot of that hysteria Twain described, back then, fit the bill perfectly in your country, esp in lead-up to latest war on Iraq.

    You've got quite a debate going there, y'all. bye again

    Posted by bazdicoot at 10/06/2008 @ 08:33am