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RedditDENVER -- Asking the wife of a candidate for president to address the national convention at which her husband is to be nominated is a relatively recent phenomenon.
And the history is a mixed one.
Hillary Clinton did a good job of it at the Democratic conventions of the 1990s.
Elizabeth Dole was scary bad at the Republican convention of 1996, and Teresa Heinz Kerry did her husband no great favors with her address to the 2004 Democratic convention.
And what of Michelle Obama?
She went into Monday facing a greater challenge than any of her predecessors.
Already the target of a vicious Republican attack campaign--that attacks her patriotism when it's not accusing her of elitism--Michelle Obama had to introduce herself to a nation that knew very little about her and that was being warned by the GOP not to even think about falling in love with her.
"Everything about this woman has been totally distorted for political purposes," explained Illinois Senator Dick Durbin, a Democrat. "That's what she had to address tonight, and she did it!"
The woman who would be first lady rose to the challenge with a speech that was as gracious as it was politically smart.
At a convention where it is still a bit of a struggle to bring supporters of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton together, Michelle Obama merged the civil rights and women's rights struggles in remarks that referenced the woman who tried to defeat her husband for the nomination.
Speaking of herself and her husband, she said:
We know what fairness and justice and opportunity look like. And he urged us to believe in ourselves – to find the strength within ourselves to strive for the world as it should be. And isn't that the great American story?It's the story of men and women gathered in churches and union halls, in town squares and high school gyms – people who stood up and marched and risked everything they had – refusing to settle, determined to mold our future into the shape of our ideals.
It is because of their will and determination that this week, we celebrate two anniversaries: the 88th anniversary of women winning the right to vote, and the 45th anniversary of that hot summer day when Dr. King lifted our sights and our hearts with his dream for our nation.
I stand here today at the crosscurrents of that history – knowing that my piece of the American Dream is a blessing hard won by those who came before me. All of them driven by the same conviction that drove my dad to get up an hour early each day to painstakingly dress himself for work. The same conviction that drives the men and women I've met all across this country:
People who work the day shift, kiss their kids goodnight, and head out for the night shift – without disappointment, without regret – that goodnight kiss a reminder of everything they're working for.
The military families who say grace each night with an empty seat at the table. The servicemen and women who love this country so much, they leave those they love most to defend it.
The young people across America serving our communities – teaching children, cleaning up neighborhoods, caring for the least among us each and every day.
People like Hillary Clinton, who put those 18 million cracks in the glass ceiling, so that our daughters – and sons – can dream a little bigger and aim a little higher.
Wisconsin Lieutenant Governor Barbara Lawton, an early and ardent Clinton backer, hailed Michelle Obama's speech as "exquisite."
But Lawton said there was something else that made it powerful.
"She spoke in her own voice," explained the state official. "There was a lot of message-discipline going on tonight. Even Teddy Kennedy and Nancy Pelosi were speaking to the themes of the convention. But Michelle Obama's voice, her personality, came through loud and clear. It was so impressive."
Unlike so many speeches, Michelle Obama's was understated and elegent.
She has been attacked by Republicans for failing to display sufficient patriotism.
She knew she had to express her love for her country. But she did so with a measure of grace and dignity that few political speakers muster these days.
All of us (are) driven by a simple belief that the world as it is just won't do – that we have an obligation to fight for the world as it should be.That is the thread that connects our hearts. That is the thread that runs through my journey and Barack's journey and so many other improbable journeys that have brought us here tonight, where the current of history meets this new tide of hope.
That is why I love this country.
And in my own life, in my own small way, I've tried to give back to this country that has given me so much. That's why I left a job at a law firm for a career in public service, working to empower young people to volunteer in their communities. Because I believe that each of us – no matter what our age or background or walk of life – each of us has something to contribute to the life of this nation.
"She took charge of her story, built her narrative," said Lawton. "It was an essential intro to her -- and to Barack Obama."
UPDATE: Video of Michelle Obama's speech below...
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John Nichols
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Note that Michelle ma belle said "the world as it is just won't do – that we have an obligation to fight for the world as it should be."
The "world" , not the country. And so let's stay in Iraq until we can end that war "responsibly" (her word), fight harder an unwinnable one in Afghanistan, threaten Iran, Russia, and so on.
The neocons behind Obamamamia couldn't agree more.
Posted by chinpoko at 08/26/2008 @ 02:40am
I couldn't help wondering if all the talk about hard work,values, the "pulling yourself up by your bootstraps" theme, working for your dreams, earning respect and respecting others even when you disagree wern't making some of the more left thinking Dems a little uncomfortable. I thought the speech was great, and necessary. The Obama's may very well turn out to be the best thing to happen to the Dems in a long time.
It's obvious from things Barack Obama has said and written in his book "The Audacity of Hope" that Ronald Reagan is one of our historical personages he admires. He can't expouse that too often, obviously, but, as much as it could, that came out a little in his wife's speech last night at times.
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/26/2008 @ 07:32am
Posted by chinpoko at 08/26/2008 @ 02:40am
You can whine all you want to but Afghanistan is where we should have been instead of Iraq. I want us to finish the job that should have been finished before we were sidetracked into Iraq. Afghanistan is very "winnable"(a word?). So yes, the world and not just this country. Do you want us to become isolationists? Hey, it worked for China, right?
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 07:35am
I'm beginning to glimpse a new strategy.
Joe Biden is quite a bit older than Barack Obama, isn't he? So maybe he's not Obama's designated successor in the Oval Office.
Maybe it's Michelle Obama!
Posted by JakobFabian at 08/26/2008 @ 08:14am
There is nothing about "work values" that is foreign to Democrats. What distinguishes them (at least traditionally) from Republicans is where Democrats believe these values come from: not from greed, but from gratitude.
What else explains Republican disdain for antipoverty programs, and the Democrats' (traditional) embrace of them?
Military adventurism, on the other hand, is traditionally a vice common to both parties, and in many cases has motivated wars that were tragically wasteful and ill-justified. Unfortunately, the two most exceptionally justified wars in which our country has been involved, the Civil War and the Second World War, are the only ones that most US-Americans remember with any clarity.
Our "remembrance" of the Vietnam War, on the other hand, is clouded by Sylvester Stallone's cinematic mythology, in which John McCain's own personal history seems to fit so much better than in reality. It should be reminded that whatever manly virtues either McCain or John Kerry brought to bear in that "police action," the Vietnam War belongs firmly not among our "good wars," but in the category of "tragically wasteful and ill-justified" - as Kerry himself eventually understood, though to my mind, McCain still seems to lack this particular insight.
Posted by JakobFabian at 08/26/2008 @ 08:40am
It's obvious from things Barack Obama has said and written in his book "The Audacity of Hope" that Ronald Reagan is one of our historical personages he admires.----Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/26/2008 @ 07:32am
CHIP....quote that.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 08:50am
"All of us (are) driven by a simple belief that the world as it is just won't do – that we have an obligation to fight for the world as it should be."
"Some men see things as they are and say, 'Why'? I dream of things that never were and say, 'Why not'?"
Posted by hsuBfools at 08/26/2008 @ 09:28am
"If I am not for myself, who will be for me? And if I am only for myself, what am I? And if not now -- when?"
Posted by hsuBfools at 08/26/2008 @ 09:35am
Yes, let's level elitism where it should go. Hmmm, should it be pointed at the couple who own "A" house and worked their way from modest beginnings....or towards "How many houses do I won", married old millions McSame?
All he has to do is put Romney on for VP and they'll be the "$cha-ching$" ticket like Dumbya and Cheney were the "big oil" ticket.
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/26/2008 @ 09:54am
I crack up everytime a Repub tries to hang the elitist label on Obama while they conveniently forget McCain's $500 dollar shoes, his 7-8-9-who knows how many houses, his millionaire wife and his $5 million definition of rich.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 10:39am
jomamma-So,what you're saying is that Condi Rice and Clarence Thomas did not earn anything and only got what they have because of affirmative action.Can you think of any reason why blacks may have a different view of America than whites in terms of pride in country?
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 10:54am
jomamma-You must remember that Bush and McCain got their educations through family connections and got their power and wealth because of family connections.The GOP used to prefer the self made,but,now,prefer those who did not earn it.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 11:02am
Jomama is trying for that "rich' thing too. Wonder how much the Rove boys pay him per post.
Posted by Radefox at 08/26/2008 @ 11:20am
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 07:35am | ignore this person | warn this person
Afghanistan is not justifiable and it is not winnable. we are enmeshed in a civil war and neither side is reliably friendly. the Taleban, deplorable as they may be, did not attack the US on 9/11. the war lords which we have had on the payroll, are as deplorable as the Taleban.
no one has won anything in Afghanistan for a long time, British as well as Russian bones bleached in the sand , attest to that.
so pardon me if I don't join your rah rah ain't war grand rhetoric.
Posted by emile duBois at 08/26/2008 @ 11:27am
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am | ignore this person | warn this person
did you know your posts reek of class envy?
Posted by emile duBois at 08/26/2008 @ 11:29am
Happy-Can you think of any reason why a white person,like Cindy McCain who inherited her wealth,may have a different view of America than a black person who was not born into an easy life?
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 11:35am
Easiest prediction in the world--
1. As soon as Hillary finishes her speech tonight...FRANKGRITS comes on to tell us it was possibly the greatest Convention speech in history.
2. He then tells us that despite how great it was...he's going to ignore her and not support Obama.
Guarenteed.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 11:49am
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:39am
MAASCH, I already told FRANK, if Obama loses, I'm going to give him the credit he so richly deserves...
and for the entire "McCain Presidency"...I'll note how McCain won due to the efforts of "HILLARY CLINTON supporters"....right up past the 2012 Democratic Primaries.
I feel it's only fair to acknowledge FRANK's work for McCain and his relationship to HILLARY CLINTON.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 11:52am
FG: Both extremely liberal with young children and a lot of money.
...but nowhere near the McSames (and they earned it!)
Gotta respect that...right JM?
...and if the Hillar-ites vote McSame they'll deserve the overturning of Roe v Wade that he's promised. It will also prove Obama correct, that the bitter react without much thought - even for their own best interest.
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/26/2008 @ 12:00pm
The houses and most assets are his wifes and were purchased with cash AFTER taxes by HER...and McCain signed a prenup... Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am
A technicality that you didn't extend to Kerry in the last election...and you wouldn't extend it to Obama if the situations were reversed. Don't look now, but your hypocrisy is showing.
And it's not like McCain never gets the use of the houses...or her jet...or any of her other assets. And I'm sure he bought those shoes himself. Hiding behind his wife - "its not mine, its HERS" - now there's a REAL American hero.
----------------------
now,$5 million is rich and he made a comment how some dolts would take it seriously... Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am
He made an ignorant, dumbass, off-the-cuff statement that revealed him for what he is - an elite snob. Realizing his error, he quickly tried to backtrack and laugh his way out of it, as if he was on an episode of Last Comic Standing rather than a nationally televised, side-by-side, direct comparison of the two candidates. Damn right people took it seriously, as they should. The only ones that didn't are the ones that have got their noses buried up the collective Republican Asshole.
Again, if Obama had said the same you would have rightfully hoisted him on his own petard.
-------------------
It is obvious from your post that you will never be rich, since you can't distinguish between high income and wealth building...you are a perfect Dem voter...a "Victum", for sure. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am |
It's obvious you're a pompous, self-inflated, close minded twerp. You don't know anything about me. I have a net worth in the millions.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 12:06pm
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:39am
Hmm. I sense a bit of hatred for those who achieve using the system. She graduated at the top of her class. You are the one who is all for bilking the system by cheating on taxes but then when someone uses the system to gain an opportunity they otherwise would not have had because their skin wasn't light enough you all of a sudden throw a hissy fit.
Show me where she squandered that opportunity. To you any black person who achieves anything that isn't Republican is nothing but an affirmative action story.
You are holding things against her from 20 years ago. She has achieved a lot in her life. Maybe you shouldn't be so obsessed with putting these people down that you can't even see positives to them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:09pm
The houses and most assets are his wifes and were purchased with cash AFTER taxes by HER...and McCain signed a prenup... Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am
Cindy McCain never worked a day in her life. She inherited all that money. She's an elitist trust-puppy.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 12:10pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 12:06pm
Funny. Jom insults elitists. But Jom also doesn't respect anyone who doesn't have lots of money. He's said it so many times on this website. He constantly spits comments at people like that, insulting them because they aren't making as much as him. Who's the elitist?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:11pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 11:49am
Doesn't even need to be stated at this point.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:13pm
Unfortunately, Hillary Clinton did some really terrible damage to Obama and the democrats with her "Senator McCain would be ready on day one, and I would be ready on day one, but all Senator Obama has is a speech he made 4 years ago." It was nasty, destructive, and bound to come back to bite the democrats hard.
I recently heard that the Hillary Clinton advisors wanted her to attack Obama even harder and uglier, but she refused. If so, good for her - in spite of the bad-enough things she actually did say.
So now something like 30% of Clinton supporters say they won't vote for Obama out of spite. Lovely. Any woman who believes at all in equal pay for equal work or any other social or moral issues that affect women and still votes for McCain needs a proctologist to find her head.
Michelle Obama is a class act.
Posted by LeeAnnG at 08/26/2008 @ 12:14pm
JM: "Average familys do not get free college "
No....poor families, or the exceedingly smart, or the athletically talented all get free college (or greatly reduced.) Are they all "Ivy league" too? Do we hold it against her that affirmative action was available to her at that time perhaps?
McCain was (per Wiki) 894 out of 899 at the Naval Academy BTW. Yer sirree...a good follow-up to Dumbya. Per the referenced line in Wiki "He did well in academic subjects that interested him, such as literature and history, but studied only enough to pass subjects he disliked, such as math."
LOL .. no wonder he can't count his houses, or understand the economy!
Bwah-ha-ha (and where' Crabwalk when I need him?)
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/26/2008 @ 12:17pm
What is with all you kool-aid drinkers on this anti-Obama kick. You are worse than people like Metteya. You couldn't say a positive thing about Obama or his family if they had walked out and healed the troops. You inexplicably hate this guy for so made up reasons.
You go so far as to call his wife and elitist, affirmative aciton, baby. You say he only achieved because of affirmative action. Hell you would insult his kids if you wouldn't be castigated for it.
Jom, Happy, Frank you are all prime examples of the problem I have with affirmative action. Any black person who has achieved an education using it you look down on no matter how much they used that single opportunity to build an amazing life you insult them for it. You look down on them for it. She used affirmative action and then graduated Cum Laude. She then used her superior education to make opportunities for herself. But that's not good enough for you because you don't give a damn about how successful she is you hate her because of who she is married to.
However if we suggest that Condoleeza Rice is an affirmative action case you will jump on us. Your colors show quite brightly. You hate anyone that isn't Republican who has achieved anything and you assume they must have achieved it through cheating. I say if you used that one opportunity to make a life for yourself then more power to you because 99% only get where we are because we are given opportunities by others. That's what affirmative action is. Being given an opportunity by someone else. McCain got where he is by riding the successes of his father until he could make his own.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:22pm
It is only to be expected that the first African American person to run for President in this country is called an affirmative action baby. I was guessing this would come up when he first started achieving anything these races. Affluent black people in this country aren't allowed to be that way unless they were in music or sports.
POLITICS DOESN'T HAVE AFFIRMATIVE ACTION.
He got into the Senate based on his achievements. As much as you like to help yourself sleep at night by reciting that he's only where he is because of affirmative action it helps you to deny the massive truths your are ignoring.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:27pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:22pm
They DO seem to "overlook" the criticisms of AA they have (and how they use it against the Obamas) when...
it was Condi, don't they?
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 12:29pm
Oh and by the way Jom. You want to see a party of underachievers you don't have to look far. Many at the top of the Republican party who preach about pulling yourself up from your bootstraps are lying through their teeth. Bush, trust fund baby. Mrs. McCain, trust fund baby. Mr. McCain, married into wealth son of an admiral which is the only reason he got as far as he did in the army.
Show me examples in this party of "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" who haven't been given opportunities. Or at least someone who had to grow up with things working against them that are now in politics.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:41pm
And I honor my black female conservative boss for her acheivments. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:34pm
Given to her by her parents? She went to the University she went to because her father worked there.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:43pm
jomamma-Cindy McCain has had little to do with the running of the business and did not double the profits.Someone else did that for her.Affirmative action still requires that one does some boot strapping,but being born into it does not.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 12:44pm
McCain got where he is by riding the successes of his father until he could make his own.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 12:22pm
Lemme fix that for you:
McCain got where he is by riding the successes of his father until he could marry his own.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 12:45pm
Condoleeza didn't know what it was to be a POOR black person in this country. She had oppurtunities given her already.
Now look at Michelle Obama's youth. She grew up poor and used every opportunity she could to get where she is now. Should she have turned down Harvard because they offered her AA? She wouldn't have gotten where she was today because she wouldn't have gone to any decent school if it wasn't for that one opportunity. Why? Because she had the misfortune of growing up poor. Which means your opportunities are severely limited from the beginning.
Oh look. Obama grew up from high-school on with his grandparents only because both his parents died. He gained the position of editor of the Harvard Law Review based on his grades and achievements. He then gained the position of President of the Harvard Law review. Which gained him the notoriety to gain him a teaching position and a book deal being the first black President of the Harvard Law review, which he gained based on his own achievements. He used achievement to create others.
Hmm yeah you're right. Nothing but a bunch of under achievers.
Not like John McCain. Who gained entry into the Annapolis because of his 4 star admiral father and grandfather. Graduating at the bottom of his class.
"McCain came into conflict with higher-ranking personnel, he did not always obey the rules, and that contributed to a low class rank (894 of 899) which he did not aim to improve"
Oh look he resigned himself to being at the bottom.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:01pm
She is self made as is her sister..a Doctor....she is from Jamaica and had to do it on their own. I admire her in every way. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:49pm
Condoleeza Rice? I don't know what you are reading. Condoleeza Rice was born to a middle class black family in Birmingham, Alabama. Her father was a teacher at a University when she went to college and she went to the University he taught at.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:03pm
I don't think the military works that way.. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:52p
Actually it does. Nepotism is a complaint in the military. He got into Annapolis because of his Father and Grandfather it is noted many times that McCain wasn't an academic achiever.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:04pm
jomamma-The military,very much, works that way and has it's own version of elite families.In fact,my own brother got into West Point partly because of our dad and his military career.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 1:08pm
I thought she is a product of Affirmative Action...and not from boot straps...
(Like you know anything at all about it, no. So why are you even opening your mouth? Affirmative Action only gets one to the starting block-- the rest is all one's individual effort. If you knew anything at all you'd know that one point.)
either way..she is an IVY League elitist as is her husband
( I suppose you've condemned all the olympic gold medalists too because they're now 'elite'!?!? No, but you continue to confuse 'elite' and 'privilege' usage. A common new con repub trick, i.e. hsuB obfuscation of Iraq with 9/11... )
who live in a house finaced by someone else,who by the way, is in jail, so I think housing might not be the issue to press...
(Your illogic would condemn victims of a bank closure and its bad practices.)
I have a hard time seeing how they can be an "average" family..
(That's because you see via bloody new con repub pervy spectacles.)
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 10:29am
Posted by hsuBfools at 08/26/2008 @ 1:09pm
McCain after having barely graduated Annapolis, began a singularly unimpressive military career where he was responsible for the crashing of an abnormal amount of jets. He then was, some say responsible for, unfortunate enough to be involved in the USS Forrestall fire. He then was unlucky enough to be shot down and captured. He was held and then offered early release based on who is father was. He denied early release because he felt it unfair to be released before the people who had been brought in before him, admiral thing to do. He was beaten. He attempted to kill himself. Then did some propaganda pieces for the enemy. Then was released.
Based on his unlucky capture he gained leadership of a training squadron after he was rehabilitated. Not based on achievement, based on the fact that he was unlucky enough to be shot down. Despite the oppurtunity given to him due to the bad luck of being shot down he still managed to turn the training squadron around and top in it's rank, good achievement.
He cheated on his wife. Then divorced her, marrying a young rich girl.
If you look at this. All of these are opportunities given to him by some circumstance that he didn't control. He gained his position in the military due to who his father was. He gained his position in the military after his capture not due to his achievements while in the military but because of his fame gained from the fact that he was the son of the head of the western theatre and captured.
I wonder how many came out of Vietnamese torture to be given the type of job he was given? I wonder why he got that job instead of the person who had been there longer than him.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:19pm
What do you think? Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:11pm
Are you aware that you statistics are flawed. Did you know that most drug suppliers are white. Yet most people arrested for drug related offenses are black?
Did you know that white people who get arrested receive statistically less sever punishments than blacks who are arrested for the same crime.
Also what you ignore MASSIVELY with your stats Jom. Is which communities you are talking about. There are more affluent whites by percentage the blacks. Poorer people because of circumstances are more prone to grow up in crime ridden areas which means because of poor circumstances are more likely to turn to crime because that's what they are surrounded by. Why not compare it by demographic not race?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:24pm
The National Institute of Drug Abuse estimated that while 12 percent of drug users are black, they make up nearly 50 percent of all drug possession arrests in the U.S.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:24pm
It is obvious from your post that you will never be rich, since you can't distinguish between high income and wealth building...you are a perfect Dem voter...a "Victum", for sure.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:06am |
This is what I love about liberals and thinking people...they tolerate, even consider the blatherings of fools like JOMAMMA. Clearly, Republicans strike out at anything that doesn't follow the ideological party line, so why should we give legitimacy to these shils and gasbags intent on spreading their particular brand of fear and hate. Quit responding to them, quit reading their drivel, quit giving them the legitimacy of a hearing and a response.
Posted by montanadon at 08/26/2008 @ 1:25pm
African Americans have accounted for more than 75% of persons incarcerated for drug offenses in Georgia and make up 97.7% of the people in that state who are given life sentences for drug offenses.
Why is it that if blacks are only 13% of the drug using population that they are arrested so much more often?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:26pm
Intelligent voters do not vote for a candidates wife, especially one who has been ashamed of her country until last year...
(She said about making a comeback: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4f9af_obama_news That's a very different statement in context when considering we're now living in a petty dic'tatorship thanks to new con repub dic'tator followers.)
many will never forget her words..
(Good when ALL of her words are heard.)
it is hard to imagine being ashamed of a country
(But she never said she was ashamed. Not being REALLY 'proud' isn't the same as feeling 'ashamed', sometimes it's simply feeling numb, sad, confused, disenchanted, just a little proud or conflicted, but not necessarily 'ashamed'.)
I can't name any other country where she could end up where is today as..potential First Lady?
(I can: the USA)
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 10:29am
Posted by hsuBfools at 08/26/2008 @ 1:26pm
In six California counties independently surveyed in 1995, 100% of those individuals sent to trial on drug charges were minorities, while the drug-using population in those same counties was more than 60% white
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:26pm
Statistics on black crime are, on the surface, very bleak. There are, however, some very important factors that help to influence the numbers. Consider those and a strong case for a much different view unfolds. Since 62% of persons admitted to Federal prison and 31.1% of those admitted to State prison for the first time were sentenced because of drug offenses, let us first take a look at the racial disparity in the war on drugs:
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:27pm
In 1997, the American Bar Association observed that quite often public defenders, who are most likely to be assigned to poor and largely minority defendants, are inexperienced, underpaid, overworked, and largely indifferent to their client's plight. (Philadelphia Bar Association Calls for Moratorium on Death, A-Infos News Service, 12/19/97) Even though it is illegal, throughout the nation, there ar
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:27pm
The Buchanan piece beautifully illustrates why we need a conversation on race...and why the first part of that conversation should consist of whites just LISTENING instead of DICTATING.
Buchanan basically is saying "They should thank us for enslaving them and bringing them here. And instead of thanking us, they commit crimes on us"
Well guess what, Pat, you self-centered ignorant piece of trash: WHITES HAVE ALL THE MONEY. Wouldn't do much good to rob the people who don't have the money, now would it?
Good Lord...
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 1:31pm
jomamma-I was looking at the libertarian party until they nominated Barr.5 people are running for POTUS and not one is worth really getting behind.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 1:32pm
er, (She said about 'hope' making a comeback: http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4f9af_obama_news
Posted by hsuBfools at 08/26/2008 @ 1:34pm
leave my wallet alone, also. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:29pm | I have some Republican friends, very good friends, with whom I banter and they all say the same thing: They vote with their wallet. It's always about greed with Republicans.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 1:36pm
MASKDELTA
Read the post, man. I said "said or wroteBarack's quote of or speaking admiringly was something he said, courtesy of one of the major news stations.Not in the book, but the following is, paraphrased:
The Conservatives (and Bill Clinton) understood that the welfare problem could be resolved by getting people to realize that their biggest problem should not be just waiting for the bureacracy to get their checks to them.
Not a Reagan quote per say, though that doesn't sound like something you'd hear from Commissar Katrina.
Chip
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/26/2008 @ 1:36pm
From 1976 to 2005 --
86% of white victims were killed by whites 94% of black victims were killed by blacks
While your statistic is correct race related crimes make up a much smaller percentage of total violent crimes.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:39pm
You should do your research before you cherry pick statistic Jom. Crime statistics aren't hard to find.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:40pm
These are not my stats..they came from Buchanan in a letter or something..not me. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Ahhh. But you are quoting them my friend. Don't quote stats unless you have done the research beyond them. Look at the stats I provide and you will see the inequality in the prison system. You are basing an entire anti-Obama diatribe on bogus stats instead of truth.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:42pm
I don't think the military works that way.. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
hahahaha
during the Vietnam war, McCain's father was commander of the whole theatre of war. I wonder what kind of treatment he received?
Posted by emile duBois at 08/26/2008 @ 1:44pm
These are not my stats..they came from Buchanan in a letter or something..not me. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:32pm
See this is a typical political ploy. Pat Bucahanan illustrates it perfectly. They quote a statistic that is factual while ignoring everything else contributing to that statistic in order to launch some flurious attack and use that statistic as a shield to protect them from the completely justified anger they get in return.
Many a violent crime is commited during a theft. Now if you statistically look at poverty according to race you will see that there are more poor blacks as a percentage of a race than whites. So why would a poor black person rob another poor black person? Maybe THAT is what accounts for the difference in percentages of race in crimes.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:50pm
An opinion piece.. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:47pm
I apologize for accusing you.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 1:50pm
No problem...I have always found Buchanan...ah, "entertaining" at best. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 2:00pm
Yeah.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 2:10pm
a racist country would not have Obama get as far as he has...the numbers in voters belie a racist country. Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 1:44pm
Just because Obama is a candidate for President is not proof that ours is not a racist country. Granted, we've come a long way, but this country is still quite racist, as evidenced by the incarceration stats posted earlier. I believe that most of us, including myself, ARE racist, to certain and varying degrees. Most of us are also unaware of it (I may be giving too much credit here).
You'd have to talk to the people on the receiving end to get an understanding of pervasiveness and degree of racism in this country, which is why we need a conversation on race. And as I said before, whites, as the perpetrators, really have no business talking about it...they need to LISTEN. For once.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 2:29pm
Might be helpful if you included a line or two of the posts you're referencing, Frank...
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 2:40pm
I'm bemused by this "elitist" stuff. What does it mean? If it means "having the best education you can get in the US," surely, it's something we want and need in our leaders. If it means something like "full of disdain for those going to community college," then not everybody who goes to Harvard is an elitist, and you'd have to prove your point. You could do that, for instance, by looking at policies -- will they benfit the (educational? financial? political?) elite, or will they benefit the greatest possible number? Obama's policies include credits for cheap colleges, tax breaks for low to middle income earners. Sounds like the elite (i.e. the smartest, best-educated, most qualified folks) pursuing non-elitist goals.
Well, having been reasonable so far, let me add that the people attacking "elitists" tend to suffer from resentment and would be the first to break out the bumper stickers and the mass emails should their kids make it to Yale.
Posted by cassamandra at 08/26/2008 @ 2:41pm
Why are you folks so jealous of McCain's success? Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 2:30pm
I'm not jealous of McCain's success. Regardless of how he got there, being a Senator for 26 or however many years fits my definition of success. But I abhor hypocrisy. I take serious exception to the blantant hypocrisy of Republicans who tag Obama as an "elitist", when he is much more the self-made man than McCain.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 2:45pm
"She doubled her fathers business, in fact she is quite bright."
She's an absentee owner, in fact. Come on, a touch of basic homework?
Posted by cassamandra at 08/26/2008 @ 2:46pm
Well you're quite wrong about that. Google it. Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 2:31pm
I posted: "Cindy McCain never worked a day in her life". She played around with her teaching hobby for a few years, but Cindy McCain never HAD to work a day in her life. You know, so she could eat and keep a roof over her head? Like the rest of us?
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 3:05pm
Again, I'm just railing against the hypocritical "elitist" perjorative thrown at the Obamas. People in glass houses and all that...
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 3:06pm
I'm bemused by this "elitist" stuff. Posted by cassamandra at 08/26/2008 @ 2:41pm
No doubt. We worship elite athletes, yet abhor elite politicians. The Repubs have taken that word, redefined it, and made it an insult. It used to be a compliment, something to strive for...yet one more gift to us from the Republican Party.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 3:08pm
CASSAMANDRA,
I don't know what others think of when they say "Elitist. For me, it is a person, in this context a leader, who proposes policies the results & consequences of which will never have to be borne by them. And this would be as it should be, since they must be free from the trials of their own policies in order to be free and unencumbered enough to think up newer "greater" ideas. Hillary Clinton's universal health care is a good example. She will never have to deal with the incompetence, high prices and shortages of Doctors and supplies that will result from such a plan like the rest of us. George Bush's isolation from his own disasterous economic plans is another.You can see this mentality in Pelosi's eyes (if I may wax philosophical for a moment.) In short an elitist is someone who believes sheep, all sheep except them of course, will always need a shepard, but they never feel the need to jump in the trenches with the masses they claim to be the champion of, mainly because of their position in society. Whether that implies "education" is another arguement
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 08/26/2008 @ 3:18pm
I dunno. I found the speech boring. It seemed to boil down to "we are so obviously middle-class that white folk shouldn't be afraid of us." I heard so many Horatio Alger references that I had to (like Mr. Creosote) ask someone to bring me a bucket. A violinist behind Michelle playing "The Improbable Dream" (my apologies to Darion and Leigh) would have made the spectacle complete. This whole scripted convention fills me with inertia.
Posted by blakecs at 08/26/2008 @ 3:35pm
"Dream
" That's the thing to do
" Just watch the smoke rings rise in the air
"You'll find your share of memories there
\(^o^)/
Posted by chinpoko at 08/26/2008 @ 4:17pm
Again, easiest prediction in the world...
unless Hillary flashes and says "Woo-hoo! Mardi Gras! Throw me some beads!"...
FRANK will declare sometime later tonight that she gave the greatest convention speech since Bryan and the "Cross of Gold".
It should immediately beg the question of him, given she will likely say "something bad" about John McCain...
"Why does FG think it was a great speech...but disagree with one of its key components???"
The secret answer (in FRANK's mind) is...of course..."She doesn't REALLY mean it when she attacks McCain...she's being loyal to the Party...if we could read HER mind, we'd know she doesn't want Obama elected either, as he's too inexperienced!"
Which should beg a new question...
"So, FRANK, in a great speech...Hillary lied?!?!??"
BTW, happy to see any or all of this hypothetical proved wrong...just don't think it will be.
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 4:37pm
JOMAMMA ... lets be really clear. Michelle Obama never said she was ashamed of her country, she said that she was really proud of her country, and that she loves her country...so stick your ignorant head up your ass.
Posted by nchasan at 08/26/2008 @ 5:01pm
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 4:37pm
I think he will declare that even if she does flash. Maybe even most especially if she does flash.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:02pm
The Obama's are a nice family. They kind of remind one of the Kenned's only they are the black version. Both extremely liberal with young children and a lot of money. Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 11:26am
Frank, Are you really going to compare the Obama family financial worth with the Kennedy family?! Now that truly is a laugher.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:04pm
Posted by nchasan at 08/26/2008 @ 5:01pm
Don't worry, Jom like Happy just repeat the right wing lies. I don't think they actually believe them they just like to repeat them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:09pm
that is the difference, not envy, but drive.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 11:40am
There are those who would call it greed too.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:10pm
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:04pm
On top of that the Kennedys were born into money. The Obamas created their own wealth.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:14pm
If we meet someday, the drinks are on me.
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:28pm
Would you be saying that if Balrog said his net worth was debt?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:16pm
I don't think the military works that way..
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 12:52pm
JM, Flying a damn jet at and dropping bombs wasn't as risky as fighting in the trenches. The roll of the dice for pilots dropping bombs has much greater odds of survival than GI Joe on the ground who's daddy doesn't have connections high up in the command and control environment.
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:23pm
On top of that the Kennedys were born into money. The Obamas created their own wealth.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:14pm
Didn't the Kennedy fortune originate from bootlegging?
Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:25pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:19pm
"The truth is, in order to get things like universal health care and a revamped education system, then someone is going to have to give up a piece of their pie so that someone else can have more.""
The idea that the world is a zero sum game is one of the pillars of fallaciousness upon which the leftist credo is built.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 5:39pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:14pm
"On top of that the Kennedys were born into money. The Obamas created their own wealth."
They didn't create shit. All the money they made was paying themselves fat salaries from donations or earned by suing people.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 5:42pm
The idea that the world is a zero sum game is one of the pillars of fallaciousness upon which the leftist credo is built. Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 5:39pm
This should be good. I'd love to see you disprove the two bedrocks of physics: Conservation of Mass and Conservation of Energy. Go ahead...
<sits down and starts munching popcorn expectantly>
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 5:49pm
Ha! I think Frank has a man-crush on Jomamma.
Anyway, I was described as a warmonger in an above post.::takes a bow:: My mother would be proud, emile. My goodness, I had to laugh because you obviously don't know me very well. That's okay, though. It's not your fault. You can call me what you want but Bin Laden was behind 9/11 and he resided in Afghanistan being supported by the Taliban. I wanted and still want him to be found and killed. Straight up. In fact, I'm still pissed at how the Bin Laden family was allowed to leave the US when noone else was allowed to fly. That shit wasn't right. They of all people should have been grounded. Saudi Arabia is another fucked up situation. The majority of the 9/11 terrorists were from Saudi Arabia. The same country that Osama Bin Laden is from is the same country whose leader was photographed holding hands with Bush. Of course when you need that which someone has control of(oil), they have you over a barrel. You really can't do or say shit to them. Or what? Shit, I have to get to work somehow.
Sorry for the long post but emile was throwing "warmonger" around. I didn't want any more misunderstandings.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 5:53pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 5:49pm
The idea that the world is a zero sum game is one of the pillars of fallaciousness upon which the leftist credo is built. Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 5:39pm
"This should be good. I'd love to see you disprove the two bedrocks of physics: Conservation of Mass and Conservation of Energy. Go ahead... "
Wow, you really don't know, do you? Fascinating. I'm just curious. Do you have any experience in the business world? How would you answer the question of if the world today, both per capita and in toto, is vastly richer today than it was, say, a hundred years ago - where do you think the wealth came from...munchkins?
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:00pm
Okay, I can understand Bush having a positive relationship with the leader of SA but you can't tell me that none of them knew anything about 9/11. Really? It's a possibility but, really? Yeah I'm bactracking a little. I got a little worked up. I'm fine now. Thanks.
Side note: CCC, you are my dude. Nice rebuttal to Buchanon's ludicrous opinion piece.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:01pm
Yeah, K33ok. The Republicans have had 7 years to capture him. They are ON it - ON it, I tell you!
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:01pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 5:49pm
You're a perfect example of how the left exploits the utter ignorance of people to further its agenda. What gave you the idea that economics works on the principles of physics? If human life worked according to pure physical principles, entropy would stipulate that our existence is impossible. Ponder that for awhile.
You don't even have the most fundamental understanding of wealth creation, my friend. And you don't even know enough to know what you don't know, or even have an inkling. Pathetic.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:04pm
How would you answer the question of if the world today, both per capita and in toto, is vastly richer today than it was, say, a hundred years ago Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:00pm
Depletion of natural resources. The wealth that used to be "in the bank" in the form of forests and oil deposits has now been withdrawn in the form of houses and plastics and ozone.
Conservation of Mass - it's not just a good idea, it's the LAW.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:07pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:01pm
Man, why do you think I was so pissed with the Bush et al wanting to go to Iraq. What the fuck for? Bin Laden wasn't there.
Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 5:57pm
Why Frank? So we can go where Bin Laden is not?
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:08pm
You're a perfect example of how the left exploits the utter ignorance of people to further its agenda.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:04pm
I have an agenda? Really, I didn't know. What is it?
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:08pm
What gave you the idea that economics works on the principles of physics?
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:04pm
Google "Guns and Butter". You might learn something.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:10pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:07pm
Natural resources as a form of 'wealth' have absolutely no meaning outside of the value of them to human society. Your statement does not even make sense, except in the sense that life itself is a net minus to a barren creation. Simple foolishness, of a self-loathing sort. Using this logic, the world would be better off if man did not even exist. At its heart, this is a suicidal philosophy.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:13pm
Man, why do you think I was so pissed with the Bush et al wanting to go to Iraq. Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 5:57pm
So vote for another Republican et al and see if THEY can get it right. Makes sense to me...not.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:14pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:08pm
"I have an agenda? Really, I didn't know. What is it?"
No, you don't have an agenda. You don't know enough to have one. What I said was, your ignorance leaves you open to be a tool of the left, with this 'life-is-a-zero-sum-game' foolishness that you buy into.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:15pm
Balrog, you put my words with frankgrits.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:18pm
What happens, Ponti, when all the forests and oil and uranium have been converted to houses and plastics and toxic waste? Wealth cannot be created infinitely from finite resources...
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:21pm
Balrog, you put my words with frankgrits.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:18pm
Sorry. I've been up since 4:00am.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:23pm
For you sports fans: Venus Williams and Roger Federer will be playing on USA channel at 7pm est. Also loved watching Team USA play in the Olympics. By the way, football's back!
Now back to the posts.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:23pm
Awrite, awrite. My bad, Frank. It just seems like you're trying hard to be good with Jomamma. Especially since your views used to be opposed to Jomamma(which I think is a funny id). Of course, it doesn't matter what my opinion is in this case. I'm just saying.
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:30pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:21pm
"What happens, Ponti, when all the forests and oil and uranium have been converted to houses and plastics and toxic waste? Wealth cannot be created infinitely from finite resources..."
Same thing that happened when we ran out of whale oil. We found alternatives. The only natural resource that matters is human intelligence and creativity, which are limitless. Like I said, you've bought into a dead-end, bankrupt ideology with this 'life is a zero-sum-game' foolishness, which it demonstrably is. It's not the only fallacious pillar of left wing ideology, but it's a major one.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:35pm
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 6:36pm
"Barlog says he is a multi millionare..may be I can sell him something or sell something for him?"
If he's a multi-millionaire - I guarantee you, he didn't earn it, any more than KVH earned her millions. It's remarkable how easily duped these trust fund babies are. Must have something to do with the need to expiate the guilt of unearned wealth.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:47pm
Ponti-Unearned wealth like Bush and McCain have?It is unfortunate that the GOP picked two who were born into it or married it because then people,like myself,get to make fun of you guys for your nonsense about unearned wealth and handouts.
Posted by i'm nobody at 08/26/2008 @ 6:57pm
Posted by JOMAMMA at 08/26/2008 @ 6:53pm
"I am constantly faced with the static pie verses the growing pie with my lib friends..all of them broke btw....gotta be the public schools...the sad part is...I wonder how many hold themselves back by simply believing in a static pie..."
Think about it, though...the static pie world view is accurate in the limited experience of these people. If you work for the government, say, or in the academic field...the pie IS static, and whatever YOU get MUST come at the expense of someone else. Just like a poker game. It's the fact that these people aren't exposed to anything else that creates this belief that 'this is the way the world works'. It's a big problem for this and any society; the success of capitalism breeds the seeds of its own destruction, as a class of people is created that is increasingly isolated and insulated from the character of the real world. Big problem.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 7:31pm
If he's a multi-millionaire - I guarantee you, he didn't earn it, any more than KVH earned her millions.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 6:47pm
While I admit I was given a college education, the degrees and the rest of it I earned myself.
It didn't come easy. I had lessons to learn first - the hard way. After I flunked out of college the first go around, my parents gave me the boot - as well they should have. I didn't even have a car and sold almost all of my possesions so I could get a room to rent, where I had no furnture and slept on the floor. I walked to work and to the store. I got excited when I found change in the couch.
I worked oil rigs for a while, worked an office job as engineer technician (clerk), and finally realized that I needed a college education if I was going to get anywhere. I took night classes for a few years and my grandmother, who always believed in me, God bless her, offered to pay for my college expenses if I wanted to go full time. I graduated when I was 32.
My wife and I now have four rental properties, a coupla pieces of dirt, 3/4 of a million in retirement accounts, along with our own $850,000 residence. Our annual income is over $300,000. Although our financial advisors last calculated our net worth at somewhere around 4 million, that has dropped more than a bit with the real estate crash. I can't complain, because real estate is how we've accumulated the bulk of our wealth.
I've never thought of us as millionaires. Cash flow is tight, because our money is out there in our properties and investments, working for us. I drive a 7 year old F-250. We do not live extravagantly.
I have worked damn hard, suffered not a little bit, and earned every bit of what I have. Stick that up your ass, Ponti.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 7:53pm
Guess what my wife's degree is in:
Economics.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 7:56pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 7:53pm
"I have worked damn hard, suffered not a little bit, and earned every bit of what I have. Stick that up your ass, Ponti."
Well, now, if what you say is true, then good for you. But all this, for me, only begs the question: how did your view of the world get so fucked up? If you've made $4 million, who do you think you screwed to get it? After all, according to you, everything you've earned must have come at the expense of someone else...who might that be? When you work your ass off to improve the value of a property, exactly who do you and Michelle Obama think you screwing to get it, if I may ask?
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 8:01pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 5:02pm
Actually if Hillary flashed her boobs and yelled "Woo-hoo! Mardi Gras!"...
I (bold) would call it the greatest Convention speech in history!
heheh
Well, in one hour, FG will let us know that FDR, JFK, Martin Luther King on the steps of the Lincoln Memorial, and the Gettysburg Address have all been put to shame!
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 8:07pm
Posted by k330k at 08/26/2008 @ 6:01pm
I try, occasionally.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 8:08pm
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 8:01pm
That's the funny thing about the world. There ARE ways to make money without screwing people. You just seem to be a fan of the ones that involve walking on others.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 8:14pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/26/2008 @ 8:14pm
How did JOHN MCCAIN earn HIS money?
Oh, wait...he doesn't have any. He has his sugar momma right out the checks!
LOL
Posted by Maskdelta at 08/26/2008 @ 8:21pm
Yes, well, now that we've traded insults and gotten that out of our system, it would be good to actually engage in some dialog...
It's not that I necessarily believe that my wealth came at the expense of someone else - not yet anyway - but at the expense of someTHING else. It's that whole conservation of mass thing. Finite resources and all that.
The true cost of production has not been fully accounted for. For example, the Forest Service subsidized my rental properties with below-cost timber sales. The low cost of my vegetables is at the expense of dead zones in the ocean. Fish used to be a cheap meal when I was a kid, but it is fast becoming a luxury.
I do not consider myself a raging enviromentalist (I'm a steak and potatoes guy), but I do know that we have not been engaging in sustainable production techniques and that, given the earth's finite resources, it's going to bite our grandchildren in the ass.
I will ask my wife about the zero-sum theory of wealth. I've not studied it, but it just seems to be common sense that finite resources cannot produce infinite wealth. Eventually, we will need more raw material.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 8:21pm
We'll have to melt down our Lexus's (Lexi?) to build planetary mining stations. To me, that's just a redistribution of finite resources.
Resources + sweat = wealth.
Sweat = energy.
Our current energy source, oil, is finite. Since resources are finite, and sweat is finite, then the associative property of addition says that wealth, too, must be finite.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 8:30pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 8:21pm
"I do not consider myself a raging enviromentalist (I'm a steak and potatoes guy), but I do know that we have not been engaging in sustainable production techniques and that, given the earth's finite resources, it's going to bite our grandchildren in the ass."
I don't believe this is a rational fear. Ever since I was a kid, people have been purveying 'limits to growth' theories designed to play on peoples' fears of the future. None of them have ever come true. In fact, there is plenty of evidence that today our water and air is cleaner, and our forests more plentiful than ever before. People keep saying we will run out of oil, but every year we find more of it and we keep finding ways to use it more efficiently. By the time we run out, we will have long since found suitable substitutes in the form of fusion power, wind energy, and solar when they become feasible. This is not to mean it will be easy, nothing ever is. But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet. I think you've got irrational fear and guilt in you if you think everything good you have comes at the expense of the environment. If you want to worry about something, worry about how much debt programs like Medicare, Medicaid, and Social Security are leaving to the next generation, that's a far more tangible and realistic fear.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
You guys really need to let go of the stereotypes Rush has foisted upon you and learn to take people at face value.
The discussion was about the zero-sum theory of economics and that I think that, since resources are finite, wealth is finite. To explain the increase in wealth, I offered that wealth is really being transferred from "the bank" (forests, oil reserves, ore in the ground, etc...)and the true costs of production aren't really reflected - that resources are subsidized and/or that full payment is being deferred.
That's it. No guilt. I worked and still work damn hard (used my vacation to work on my rentals this year AND last year), took some risks, and I reaped the rewards...for a while.
In psychology and ordinary language, guilt is an affective state in which one experiences conflict at having done something that one believes one should not have done.
I suffer from no such conflict. I just think wealth is finite.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 11:21pm
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 11:21pm
You deserve a Kreighoff.
Life is short, enjoy it!
Posted by Benchrest at 08/26/2008 @ 11:34pm
Posted by frankgrits at 08/26/2008 @ 2:25pm
You would go against HRH? She made it clear to back Obama. But instead you would trade one village idiot for another? You know, I must agree with a comedian I heard on the radio a while back..."I want a guy in the WH that's so much smarter than me it makes me feel bad..." And that sure ain't McSame .. bottom 2% of his class. Obama, top of his class at a good school. Gotta go smart FG. We don't need 4 more years of stupid.
---------------------------------------------- Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 5:42pm
Working public aid for displaced workers when he could have had his pick of any law firm in the country. Pull your head outa your ass Ponti, cause you sure have a shitty viewpoint.
---------------------------------------- Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 6:07pm
LOL.... its the Law. Good stuff, and how succinct!
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/26/2008 @ 11:35pm
2Happ
I've taken microecon, environmental econ, Ag econ (grad), and an environmental social sciences course that included advanced econ concepts (also grad) and I can tell you this with absolute certainty.
The basic production function that includes resources in the denominator (as a multiplier) is a mathematical impossibility. Do a simple integral and as t (time) increases, the denominator approaches zero. This is a simple math proof that it is a non-function from calc 1. (technically it is "undefined")
I pointed this out (in env econ) to the right wing economist prof and he didn't understand. Kinda like McSame.....
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/27/2008 @ 12:22am
Go head with your bad self, Balrog. You shouldn't feel guilty because you worked hard for it. I regard Jomamma(ha ha) in the same way. I admire all who step out on their own. Big ups to ya!
Posted by k330k at 08/27/2008 @ 12:11pm
That said, IF you're NOT guilty and believe your wealth is purely from NOT paying nature its dues, then why should any other rich persons who became rich guilty Posted by 2HAPPY at 08/26/2008 @ 11:41pm
???
I never said they should! Again, quit trying to paint me as the demon liberal Rush rails against. I ain't that person. There are damn few people that are, actually.
Posted by Balrog at 08/27/2008 @ 12:12pm
oooo, oooo ... can I be a demon liberal? Can, I can I , huh? Please......
BTW: something weird has happened to this blog box script as I am now typing in slo-mo. Anyone else having this problem ? (mozilla Seamonkey browser)
Posted by leftofcenter at 08/27/2008 @ 12:23pm
But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
ah,
you want to dictate how many kids people can have!
commie.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:50pm
But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
THAT'S BECAUSE PEOPLE USE RESOURCES WHICH ARE
FINITE.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:52pm
But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
do you know what algae is?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:53pm
But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
ever heard of gallium?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:53pm
But the only real limits to growth are how many people we want to live on this planet.
Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 9:01pm
water?
you like that stuff?
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:53pm
I just think wealth is finite.
Posted by Balrog at 08/26/2008 @ 11:21pm
hey,
compare graphs of u.s. debt and global temperature rise.
of course wealth is finite.
if i owned the earth and couldn't leave that'd be it.
finite.
people forget that we are made from the planet.
Posted by frosty zoom at 08/27/2008 @ 9:57pm