The Beat

FCC Votes for Monopoly, Congress Must Vote for Democracy

posted by John Nichols on 12/18/2007 @ 3:55pm

The Federal Communications Commission has, as expected, voted along party lines to approve the demand of Rupert Murdoch and other communications-industry moguls for a loosening of limits on media monopolies in American cities.

Now, the real fight begins.

There was never any doubt that FCC chair Kevin Martin, a Bush-Cheney administration appointee and acolyte, would lead the two other Republican members of the commission to a 3-2 endorsement of a move to begin dismantling the historic "newspaper/broadcast cross-ownership" ban which has long served as the only barrier to the buying by one powerful individual or corporation of newspapers, television and radio stations and other media outlets in a community.

The two dissidents on the commission -- Democrats Michael Copps and Jonathan Adelstein -- cast their expected votes against Martin's plan to allow a company in the 20 largest media markets to own both newspapers and radio and television stations. The Martin plan also opens up smaller markets to monopoly exploitation allowing firms to apply for a waiver of the cross-ownership ban.

Arguing that the commission was bowing to pressure from media conglomerates without beginning to study the likely impact on local news coverage, minority ownership and other supposed concerns of the FCC, Copps told his fellow commissioners, "Today's story is a majority decision unconnected to good policy and not even incidentally concerned with encouraging media to make our democracy stronger. We are not concerned with gathering valid data, conducting good research, or following the facts where they lead us."

Copps said he had little doubt that Martin and the other two Republicans would move quickly to waive what remains of the cross-ownership ban and begin approving mergers in communities large and small across the whole country.

Martin's move, while very much in line with the Bush's administration's radical pro-corporate agenda, goes against every signal the FCC has gotten from Congress, which is responsible for establishing regulations regarding the ownership of the public's airwaves.

"The FCC has never attempted such a brazen act of defiance against Congress," argued Adelstein, in a passionate condemnation of the commission's actions. "Like the Titanic, we are steaming at full speed despite repeated warnings of danger ahead. We should have slowed down rather than put everything at risk."

The response to that risk must come from Congress.

Before the vote, 26 members of the Senate -- a quarter of the chamber's members -- notified the commission that they would "immediately move legislation that will revoke and nullify the proposed rule."

The senators making that promise are the key players on communications policy in the chamber, including Commerce Committee chair Daniel Inouye, D-Hawaii, and the vice chairman of that committee, Ted Stevens, R-Alaska. So they can make the move.

But they will need the full and aggressive support of Democratic leaders in the Senate and House to push back with the force necessary to counter an expected veto by President Bush.

This is one fight where citizen action will matter. Key Republicans such as Stevens and Mississippi's Trent Lott, the party's number two man in the Senate, are in complete support of the move to overturn the FCC vote. It is possible to build a broad coalition. But there can be no wavering by the Democrats on this front.

Indeed, they must make this a national issue. And the way to do that is by talking it up where it cannot be ignored. All four Democratic senators who are seeking the presidency signed the letter pledging to revoke and nullify the FCC decision.

Now, New York's Hillary Clinton, Illinois' Barack Obama, Connecticut's Chris Dodd and Delaware's Joe Biden need to put the issue of media monopoly front and center in Iowa and New Hampshire. Of course, they can and will talk about other issues. But if they are not talking about the fundamental threat to diversity of media ownership in American communities and the country as a whole, they will be failing to use the most powerful bully pulpit in the fight against the monopoly on communication that represents the single greatest threat to the battered democratic discourse of a country where the public's right to know cannot take this hit and survive.

Comments (280)

  1. But if they --the Democratic presidential candidates in the Senate-- are not talking about the fundamental threat to diversity of media ownership in American communities and the country as a whole, they will be failing to use the most powerful bully pulpit in the fight against the monopoly on communication that represents the single greatest threat to the battered democratic discourse of a country where the public's right to know cannot take this hit and survive.

    ~Nichols

    That's a hell of a sentence.

    And entirely appropriate to the circumstances.

    Yup, our democracy is in a sudden death overtime period.

    Which is precisely why I've been arguing in support of John Edwards' presidential run. It's the nearest thing approaching an ice-ax that can be utilized to halt our increasingly rapid slide down the mountainside. He's the guy actually praising the use of the bully pulpit in support of the citizens against the corporate-ruled state.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 12/18/2007 @ 4:18pm

  2. Post from another thread:

    In the meantime, I sincerely hope that The Nation magazine can do us all a favor and do justice to the spirited Obama-Edwards debate that's been happening in their blog post comments threads.

    And I hope they continue to expound and expand on the myriad reasons why Hillary Clinton is such a miserable choice for Democratic voters in general, and progressives in particular.

    I'll just call that my Nation Christmas list. And no lumps of (Edwards avoidance) coal, please.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 12/18/2007 @ 4:21pm

  3. As noted on Ms vanden Heuvel's post, Obama IS taking the lead on pushing some legislation....but here's the problem...

    if it passes, it helps him to win the Democratic nomination...and....uh...

    there's another US Senator (playing catch-up on "media monopoly") who cannot allow that.

    And the father of her Nevada campaign leader is...the Senate MAJORITY LEADER.

    (and yes, I'm saying HRC would sabotage Obama's anti-media monopoly bill, to hurt him and his campaign....if she can't take the lion's share of credit for it. Call me cynical and distrusting, I guess!)

    Posted by Mask at 12/18/2007 @ 4:34pm

  4. MASK,

    You're cynical and disgusting.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/18/2007 @ 4:50pm

  5. You're cynical and disgusting.

    ~CHIMICHENGA

    I believe that's the nicest thing you've ever called him ;-)

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 12/18/2007 @ 4:56pm

  6. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/18/2007 @ 4:50pm

    Possibly the first...but atleast I don't cynically live in one country, bashing my home-country and its "corrupt economy"...on money I MADE in that "corrupt economy".

    Pretending I'm some "outsider" "non-gringo" while I'm just another rich American kid living the high-life on American dolares on a cheap South American local economy and fancying myself a travelogue version of Che.

    Posted by Mask at 12/18/2007 @ 4:56pm

  7. BTW, CHIMI, did you ever tell us the MARK-UP you use when you exploit the local Colombian or Ecuadorian hand-crafters?

    BLOG | Posted 11/28/2007 @ 11:01pm A Profile of Immigration by Katrina vanden Heuvel

    if I don't find gigs tutoring I simply bring handicrafts from Colombia or Otavalo, Ecuador to sell in Gringoland.----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 11/29/2007 @ 2:23pm

    Posted by Mask at 12/18/2007 @ 4:59pm

  8. Posted by MASK 12/18/2007 @ 4:59pm | ignore this person

    Hey Sad Sack,

    I don't mark up anything I buy in the south. The mark-up comes once I arrive in northern latitudes. I thought that was obvious. As I said earlier, I can buy 50 knapsacks from a guy who'd be lucky to sell 50 in a month and then make a few dollars off people like you.

    And I don't see how I think myself any species of Che Guevara. I am not even close to being as stubbornly idealistic, pugnacious or dedicated to sharing the fortune of the residuum of society. Just because you don't have the cojónes to visit the places I do and experience what I do in the flesh doesn't mean you have to spit your useless tosh my way. Everyone here knows you're the one with the creature comforts and luxuries, not me...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/18/2007 @ 5:04pm

  9. if Hillary takes continues on the current road her campaign is on, i.e. bashing Obama to try to regain the lead, she'll be playing into his hands.

    In a horse race, HRC is a good frontrunner- I don't think she's as suited for a battle like this as Edwards or Obama.

    Could it be... no Clinton or Bush as a president?

    Posted by badtimmay at 12/18/2007 @ 5:39pm

  10. Why should we vote for any of these candidates to lead us as POTUS when none of them will lead us as Senator or Representative?

    Posted by ZERO 12/18/2007 @ 5:24pm

    Amen.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/18/2007 @ 6:49pm

  11. The mark-up comes once I arrive in northern latitudes. I thought that was obvious. As I said earlier, I can buy 50 knapsacks from a guy who'd be lucky to sell 50 in a month and then make a few dollars off people like you.----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/18/2007 @ 5:04pm |

    How much do you pay the guy for the 50 knapsacks?

    How much do you sell them for?

    What's the diff? And how much of that do YOU get to pocket to live your "bohemian" lifestyle?

    CHIMICAPITALIST?....heheh

    Posted by Mask at 12/18/2007 @ 7:18pm

  12. We all know that Rupert Murdoch has done more for Hillary than just buy her a lunch.

    This might be a wonderful issue to separate the wheat from the chaff, (or the truth from the bullsh!t if you prefer): turn up the heat on Clinton to return money from the Murdoch fund raiser and to take a vocal stand against his most coveted prize -- and then decry her publicly when she inevitably tries to weasel out of doing so.

    Posted by trippin at 12/18/2007 @ 10:00pm

  13. NICHOLS: ....Martin's plan to allow a company in the 20 largest media markets to own both newspapers and radio and television stations....

    THIS constitutes "FCC Votes for Monopoly"?

    Monopoly means EXCLUSIVE CONTROL.....or we can relax that a bit and say, as was w/Microsoft, OVERWHELMING market share...something like 80% or more.

    What the heck is wrong with today's journalists....is using fraudulent headlines the accepted standard, more so at The Nation?

    I'll bet in any of the "20 largest media markets", the combined share of the TV market for the Big 3--ABC/NBC/CBS--is less than 30%!

    Posted by Happy at 12/18/2007 @ 10:21pm

  14. CHIMICAPITALIST?....heheh

    Posted by MASK 12/18/2007 @ 7:18pm

    My FROSTY imitaaaaaaacion:

    CHIMISMUGGLIST & CHIMITAXEVADLIST too!

    Posted by Happy at 12/18/2007 @ 10:30pm

  15. Posted by HAPPY 12/18/2007 @ 10:30pm

    No,no,no...just more of CHIMI's hypocrisy.

    He thinks he's "helping the local economy" when he buys the poor Colombian's knapsacks for $50 (total, not each). Then flies back to the States on the return ticket he's had in his rucksack since he left....sells the knaps for $100 EACH to his buddies, hometowners, city festivals, etc. Pockets a good hunk of change.

    Borrows money from his parents....then flies back down to Medellin to get on an American Left blog and talk about how "Amerika exploits the poor people of Central and South America".

    Posted by Mask at 12/18/2007 @ 10:38pm

  16. Which is precisely why I've been arguing in support of John Edwards' presidential run. It's the nearest thing approaching an ice-ax that can be utilized to halt our increasingly rapid slide down the mountainside. He's the guy actually praising the use of the bully pulpit in support of the citizens against the corporate-ruled state.

    Posted by B_KOOL_66 12/18/2007 @ 4:18pm

    Agreed. Edwards is the only dem candidate who seems pissed off at the business as usual attitude in D.C.

    The president appoints many people for positions and that is why if we elect another buffoon like W, we are in real big trouble. W is nothing but a figurehead who makes public appearances and wooes the base, but he appoints those positions he's told to by his corporate lobbyists and neocon advisors.

    If We elect Hillary, we might see some mild change on a few social issues, but business will go on as usual. Edwards is the only candidate within striking distance in the dem camp that shows any real stomach for change.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 07:34am

  17. A Hoax Exposed at Princeton Max Blumenthal | When a strait-laced student claimed he was attacked by liberal thugs, the conservative establishment rallied around him--until it turned out to be a lie.

    Buwhahaha.

    This is going to have legs, I bet in under a year the Nation neo-vons will bring this up as bygone fact. It feeds into their theories so well they won't be able to let go. To this day we still have Apologists spewing garbage like all the "w's" went missing off keyboards when Clinton slunk out of town, or that Gore played the Willy Horton card or the Navy was a victim of a liberal scam when it gave Kerry and Cleland purple hearts.

    What we really need is to have corporate media have more power than they already do. Great for democracy and getting the facts before the people. Look how well it worked to lead us into an unnecessary war.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/19/2007 @ 07:40am

  18. MASk, you sure do bring out the best in people. Now I know why you spend so much time here, you have alienated all of your "friends", nit picking them to death, haven't you?

    Posted by HAPPY 12/18/2007 @ 10:21pm

    Blinders on, full speed ahead!!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/19/2007 @ 07:46am

  19. Posted by CRABWALK 12/19/2007 @ 07:46am

    Well, I figure any guy who plans on killing his GRANDMOTHER, like you, probably isn't too popular at the family Christmas dinner!

    heheh

    BLOG | Posted 03/24/2007 @ 8:54pm Edwards Stands Out On Health Care Debate Marc Cooper

    NATION STAFF: how about a story on wether or not Oregons system is working? This trial ranks procedures by efficacy and cost/benefit. It leads to.. (gasp) rationing, which is what we need in some form. Paying out hundreds of thousands to keep Grandma alive for a few more weeks is not a sustainable system. ----Posted by CRABWALK 03/25/2007 @ 05:09am

    (my bolds)

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 09:17am

  20. This link below is an article about the destroyed CIA tapes and how a federal judge believes the CIA crossed the line. Watch for the new AG to come to Bushco's defense. If he doesn't come to their defense, then maybe, just maybe, we actually might be able to trust this AG, but don't hold your breath on that one.

    http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/asection/la-na-tapes19dec19,1,6 510221.story?coll=la-news-a_section

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 09:30am

  21. The second white male capitalist pig looked at the first white male capitalist pig and declared, "Well, it's obvious. We're just gonna have to get a bigger truck."

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 09:23am

    Sounds like W's logic on how we're making progress in Iraq as well as how we've enjoyed such a great economy during his presidency.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 09:33am

  22. Sounds like W's logic on how we're making progress in Iraq as well as how we've enjoyed such a great economy during his presidency.

    Posted by WOLFGANG1 12/19/2007 @ 09:33am

    time for another inflation, er, liquidity injection.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/19/2007 @ 09:38am

  23. That's a little hard to stomach.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 09:47am

    What was even more hard to stomach was watching the rethugs question Cleland's patriotism.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 09:50am

  24. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 09:23am

    The price tags on CHIMI's exploited handicrafts..."magically" appear!

    He's not responsible!

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 10:20am

  25. Posted by MASK 12/19/2007 @ 10:20am | ignore this person

    Again, I have put much on the internet in the form of thoughts and pictures for public inspection. Where can I find out more about the Masked Moron? Nowhere, of course. Your moniker fits you perfectly - licking off lame shots from behind a secret wall of rubbish. You don't have the brains or balls to live the way I have lived and you know it. I sense a bit of envy in your writings of late, and a growing stench of mediocrity behind them.

    But really - how much of an ignoramus are you? Do you have any idea what raw materials cost here or in Ecuador? Do you understand how simple a knapsack of dyed wool is to make? As I said earlier, a bottle of Coke is about 25 cents and a kilo of bananas go for a dollar. Do you understand that by buying 50 knapsacks at the going rate I'm robbing no one, rather I'm doing the artisan a favor by purchasing in one day the amount he'd normally sell in one month? I'm not humbugging anyone here, jackass. For Christ's sake I was in the Peace Corps and worked with women's groups who produced crafts for the market and peasants who organized coops to sell their produce in the city where it would earn a better price.

    As usual, you plaster your ignorance about Latin America here and fail to land a blow on my chin once again. I'm exploiting no one but al amriki by marking up the price 4-5 times up north. Yes, I profit off of people like you who have money to waste on glory holes at the local grind house and pills to enlarge your penis, but then the next time I visit Otavalo I may buy 100 knapsacks instead of 50. I guess you're the socialist, not me, for you obviously abhor the idea of making a few bucks.

    I'll put my address on this site if you want to visit me to see just how lavish my lifestyle is. But we all know you'd never leave your little glass house where everything is a big secret...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 11:12am

  26. I don't want to get sucked into the extended Mask-Chimi debate here, but where is it written that you have to live some kind of pure life before you can criticize the crap around you? We all have to make compromises everyday with the system we live in, whether we despise just George W., or him and the GOP, or them and the Dems, or the entire capitalist system. We still have to survive, but in the process, we also have a right to say what we think of the world around us. Yes, you try to make as few compromises as possible, and you try not to live as a total hypocrite, but frankly, it would be stupid of an American leftist not to have a return ticket in his pocket in a death-squad filled country like Columbia. Has anyone here ever seen the movies "Missing" or "Salvador"?

    The one thing I can agree with Mask on is Chimi's occasional pretense that he is not American with comments like "your country," but overall, he sure doesn't sound like he's running a sweatshop for J.P. Stevens, and he brings some specialized knowledge to these boards, which is not a bad thing.

    But hell, I appreciated Liberty's recent detailed discourse on Mormonism, so what do I know.

    Posted by cka2nd at 12/19/2007 @ 11:48am

  27. First rule of politics: "Never beleive your own bullshit."

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 10:01am

    MBB, That questioning of his patriotism is what cost him his office. So, who believed what bullshit?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 12:04pm

  28. Posted by CKA2ND 12/19/2007 @ 11:48am | ignore this person

    First, the term American means something different to me than to the typical gringo or estadounidense, whom I like to refer to as al amriki, among other things. Second, I've spent too much time overseas to consider myself a native gringo - all that I've seen and experienced has changed me profoundly and everything from my emotions to appearance to speech has been altered by life overseas. There are some traits I will never slough, but for the most part I have adapted very well to things here. If I didn't look the way I do I'd be one more face in the multitude.

    I am no patriot. I owe allegiance to no one and no land. I try to live life on my own terms, which I believe are for the most part honest and healthy. Every time someone here accuses me of some heresy or heterodoxy I take it as a compliment. As for my criticisms of the nation I was born in, well, I don't live there or pay taxes there so I think I can bitch until my face turns blue if I please. Remember that the next time one of you rails against the wanton wars your tax dollars help finance...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 12:26pm

  29. After weeding out all the ad hominem invectives (80% of it)...I got these two clever segments...

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 11:12am

    1. "I'm exploiting no one but al amriki by marking up the price 4-5 times up north....I guess you're the socialist, not me, for you obviously abhor the idea of making a few bucks."

    See? CHIMI isn't ripping off the poor Ecuadoran, the 400-500-600% mark up that he makes is "exploiting no one but al amriki" (Americans). He's exploiting US by buying cheap goods, coming to the States, and selling them for a high profit.

    I'm sure Karl Marx would buy that....heheh. (BTW, CHIMI, no. I'm no socialist and I don't begrudge you making profits...if you weren't a HYPOCRITE about it, bemoaning how "other" Americans exploit the Central and South Americans!)

    2. "I'll put my address on this site if you want to visit me to see just how lavish my lifestyle is."

    Is it more or the same "lavish" as the average resident of Medellin? Litte better maybe?...because they don't have a wad of US$ in their pockets (and the lifestyle those can buy)?

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 12:30pm

  30. Posted by CKA2ND 12/19/2007 @ 11:48am

    Not accusing CHIMI of being a "limoseine liberal", CKA. And I realize that even a socialist like you has to live like a capitalist "until the Revolution".

    But his deal is, what you mentioned. This ACT by which he's "not one of YOU evil, exploitive Americans" and how "our" country sucks, but how CHIMI is somehow "outside" of it.

    When in fact, he's making his profits off both the American economy AND the products of a "Third World" country...to a lesser, but morally or politically EQUAL way to some NIKE guy shipping his shoes out of Guatemala.

    You think his "knapsack maker" sees anywhere CLOSE to 1-2-FIVE percent of the final sale value that CHIMI gets? Think that CHIMI goes back to Colombia and "spreads the wealth"? He's already ADMITTED (in another post) that he's not paying TAXES.

    And he's further admitted that all this cash is going to a "much more adventurous, unorthodox, educational and exciting" lifestyle (Posted by CHIMICHENGA 11/15/2007 @ 5:09pm)...not some charity work in the barrios of Colombia, but his little "blog travelogue".

    Such is a hypocrisy not even close to your average American leftist who has to work for a living (yes, actual WORK, not financially advantageous "international trade")...clammoring for economic justice.

    Next time, CHIM starts talking "evil, greedy, EXPLOITIVE Americano gringos"....keep how HE makes his "living" in mind.

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 12:39pm

  31. I don't live there or pay taxes there....Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 12:26pm

    No...you just make money here.

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 12:39pm

  32. This is so great - all of you shit roses. I put my money where my mouth is and left the circus. That in itself gives me PLENTY of freedom to enfilade all those who kvetch here with your big, bad verbal facades that are backed by nothing but inaction and hot air. Apparently MASK thinks I should give the Ecuadorians $10 for each $3 bag that they produce for about $1. This from the polluted mouth of someone who speaks as if he were the one living in poverty and sharing the lot of the underprivileged and underfed. Riiiiight. From what I gather you do nothing but sit around in front of a computer waiting to be the first to comment on the latest post. Then you go one step further by saving comments of others to use in your jerybuilt replies, slapping yourself on the back and tallying one more score in the pointless game you play here.

    I think I'll start calling you MONK instead of MASK, for you obviously lead the most salubrious, aseptic and pious existence, which we all know to be totally bereft of diversion, copulation and society. I've asked you 1001 times what you do and how you make the world a better place, yet all I get are cheesy attacks on my rantings and ramblings.

    What is most evident in your posts is how ignominy thirsts for respect. And as for MARYBRETBRAD - go lose some weight you cornfed heffer.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 1:18pm

  33. Mask, I think the word you are searching for is, "poseur".====Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 12:49pm

    Well, maybe in CHIMI's case it's...

    "Apartate que me tiznas, dijo la sarten al cazo"

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 1:42pm

  34. After he lost, you guys comforted yourself by saying, "The winner cheated, he questioned his patriotism and because Americans are so fucking stupid, they believed that lie."

    The only one believing a lie here is you.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 12:22pm

    I live in Georgia. I know damn well why he lost. He lost because there's a pretty damn powerful tax free element out here feeding people with political lies and crap. That element would be the southern baptist churches.

    You doubt me, ya'll ought to come on down sometime and attend a service, or better still check out the conversations that go on after the services and in their "bible study" classes. It's quite enlightening.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/19/2007 @ 1:44pm

  35. Apparently MASK thinks I should give the Ecuadorians $10 for each $3 bag that they produce for about $1.----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 1:18pm

    "Nation" Editors!!!! An alert, I believe that JOHN MAASCH (or HAPPY) has hijacked another poster's nick and posted something from a discussion on "sweatshop labor in Central America" and "fair trade"!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 1:44pm

  36. BTW, looks like John Nichols (again) jumped the gun on that "Edwards' love child" story.

    Yahoo News has pulled his article (as the Enquirer now has another Edwards' staffer claiming paternity).

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 1:46pm

  37. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 1:53pm

    Spanish idiom....

    "The pot calling the kettle black" would be an English approximation.

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 2:00pm

  38. MASK,

    Your stab at shooting me a message in Spanish is pathetic. Not only is it far from the proverb you so cleverly endeavored to clout me with, but it is as dumb as the Los Angeles Angeles (The The Angels Angels).

    And since you're such an enemy to profit and exploitation pray tell where you'll be buying your Christmas gifts this year? Or do you make them with your ungainly hands so as to avoid defiling yourself and debasing your moral rectitude?

    BTW, does anyone else notice how MASK continues to avoid divulging even the slightest details regarding his vocation and life on the High Road?

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 2:09pm

  39. Oh boy - I just read MASK's comment on the post about Burger King and that fine company's magnanimity towards tomato pickers. (Not to mention their care for your health by selling garbage posturing as food.) Of course MASK was the first one to comment on the post, but it is one of his lamest to date, to wit, yet another failed attempt at comedy by the resident square here. Quoting Pulp Fiction was cool 12 years ago, but hey, I guess a middle-aged ass clown who hasn't been laid since the Iran-Contra hearings doesn't know any better.

    Keep it coming, MASK. You can bring your raillery against me anytime, but just remember it doesn't change a thing about your own prosaic life. I have a feeling the phrase "a table for one" is uttered quite often by you, that is, when you're not hovering over this website looking to impress the void.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 2:28pm

  40. All you need is FOX News and the NY Post to know the truth. They rest of the stations and papers speak lies.

    Posted by GUPDOG 12/19/2007 @ 11:40am

    you have now explained everything.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/19/2007 @ 3:52pm

  41. That's a little hard to stomach.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 09:47am

    What's even harder to stomach is yet another right wing stoodge denigrating a Deomcrat's service to country.

    You are an asshole, plain and simple.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 12/19/2007 @ 4:34pm

  42. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/18/2007 @ 5:04pm

    I don't mark up anything I buy in the south. The mark-up comes once I arrive in northern latitudes. I thought that was obvious. As I said earlier, I can buy 50 knapsacks from a guy who'd be lucky to sell 50 in a month and then make a few dollars off people like you.

    So, you make a living exploiting native laborers in local sweatshops so that you can make some filthy lucre off the sweat of others? How much money do your workers make? Do you offer them health insurance? Have their sweatshops been examined for compliance with environmental regulations? Have you invited OSHA to examine their workplace conditions, or DON'T YOU CARE? You greedy capitalist exploiter! You're knapsacks are probably made with child labor as well, all so you can make a few lousy dollars. Disgusting.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 4:49pm

  43. CHIMI, don't bother making excuses for your profiteering.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 4:50pm

  44. I think MASK better go get some clothes for CHIMMINAKED and FedEX them down there now that he's got his address!

    Posted by Happy at 12/19/2007 @ 4:59pm

  45. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 4:54pm

    Next, I suppose that CHIMI will tell us those workers aren't even unionized, and that he's profiting from SCAB LABOR!! SCAB!!! SCAB!!!

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 5:02pm

  46. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/19/2007 @ 5:02pm | ignore this person

    PONTI and all other morons -

    Maybe do a google search on Otavalo. I know none of you have been there, which is why your talk of sweatshops is ridiculous. It is probably the biggest indiginous market on the entire continent and one of the best to boot. The artisans are self-employed and do everything from raising the sheep to sewing the knapsacks. I don't run a business here, rather I buy local wares from time to time and sell them up north.

    Any of you who buy produce at the supermarket are "exploiters", as are those who shop at J. Crew, Gap, Eddie Bauer, Wal Mart, etc. Give me a break. How many here drink Starbucks or Dunkin Donuts? Exploiters you are! How many have smoked a Cuban cigar? Exploiters and embargo-breakers you are! How many of you wear blood diamonds? How many of you buy gas sold to you by Saudi Arabia? How many get it from Citgo and support Chávez as a result? How many wear Nike? How many own iPods? Bunch of hot air balloons here today.

    Judging by the way you all whoop you only buy American-made goods and concentrate an inordinate amount of effort making sure all your talisman and gewgaw are free of the plagues of child labor, sweatshops, slavery and other exploitative forces. Who the hell do you people think you are? This is why "they" hate you.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 5:15pm

  47. And the comment on environmental regulations is even better. For the reason you move your factory floors to southern latitudes is so you can pollute the air, water and earth with impunity, operate without any social responsibility whatsoever, crush labor unions and peasant leaders with the help of local thugs who are often the police themselves and function with no restrictions on capital flight. Check out the weather changes to northern México since NAFTA was passed and you'll see how much US corporations care about the environment. Oh, but you hypocrites will blame México for this, right?

    Can you say ignorant and ugly American?

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 5:18pm

  48. I think chimi hates the U.S. because it represents everything he hates about himself. Instead of internalizing his dislike of said behaviors he chooses to look outward. Chimi chooses to blame others instead of changing himself. It's kinda like how we grow up rebelling against our parents and some how end up acting very similar to them. But I would suggest you give those guys more than three bucks for a knapsack. Would five really bust your balls?

    Posted by mARKlATTIN at 12/19/2007 @ 5:47pm

  49. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 5:15pm

    CHIMI, I find your utter disregard for the rights of local workers to be outrageous. Are the workers organized, or not? And if not, why are you supporting their exploitation?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 5:57pm

  50. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 5:18pm

    Check out the weather changes to northern México since NAFTA was passed and you'll see how much US corporations care about the environment.

    Hmmm....let's see. The weather forecast for Sonora tomorrow says hot and clear. Does this mean General Motors hates Mexicans? I'm confused.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 6:03pm

  51. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 6:03pm

    Mark has a good point. Anything more than 15% profit is obscene. Exxon/Mobile doesn't even make a 15% profit and that's in an entire year. If Chimi is only paying $3 for the bags, if he hold on to them for an entire year, I could see where the government might allow him to sell them for $3.45, but anything more would be obscene profits.

    So, CHIMI makes triple the profits of the average multinational oil corporation, and on the backs of exploited native children, with virtually no health, labor rights, or occupational safety oversight? That IS obscene, and it sure puts things into perspective. I would think some sort of investigation is in order.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 6:08pm

  52. MBB - you are a liar.

    Here was Kerry running around bragging about his SACRIFICE for his country that earned him three (COUNT THEM THREE!) purple hearts. In reality, his suffering amounted to half-a-dozen stitches, no blood transfusions, and not even one minute spent in a hospital bed.

    You consider that something besides denigration?

    Again, you are a liar.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 12/19/2007 @ 6:21pm

  53. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 6:03pm

    Yea! That's like NIKE or GAP or other brand name crap markup.

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/19/2007 @ 6:23pm

  54. I was denigrating Kerry's behavior on the campaign trail, not his service.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 6:34pm

    Your attempt at deflection will not work.

    You are a liar. Period.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 12/19/2007 @ 6:48pm

  55. Ya got me there, Darin. Cleland only received a Silver Star and the Bronze Star for valorous action in combat. I assumed he had received the PH.

    Here is the account of the commanding officer:

    "Max Cleland was with the Battalion Forward Command Post in heavy combat involving the attack of the 1st Cavalry Division up the valley to relieve the Marines who were besieged and surrounded at the Khe Shan Firebase. The whole surrounding area was an active combat zone ... Max, the Battalion Signal Officer, was engaged in a combat mission I personally ordered to increase the effectiveness of communications between the battalion combat forward and rear support elements: e.g. Erect a radio relay antenna on a mountain top. By the way, at one point the battalion rear elements came under enemy artillery fire so everyone was in harm's way.

    "As they were getting off the helicopter, Max saw the grenade on the ground and he instinctively went for it. Soldiers in combat don't leave grenades lying around on the ground. Later, in the hospital, he said he thought it was his own but I doubt the concept of 'ownership' went through his mind in the split seconds involved in reaching for the grenade. Nearly two decades later another soldier came forward and admitted it was actually his grenade. Does ownership of the grenade really matter? It does not."

    I guess you missed the Hive Mother Coulters attacks, along with The Drug addicts tongue lashings?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/19/2007 @ 7:05pm

  56. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 7:11pm

    Yep, those darn regulations set forth by The Department of Defense.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/19/2007 @ 7:13pm

  57. MASK, More stollen for me at the x-mas party!!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/19/2007 @ 7:14pm

  58. Morons,

    Let's see - it costs money to fly from South America to the US in order to sell said knapsacks. Check out the cost of a flight and then figure out how I'm raping the locals. It's amazing to see how petty you snobs are once someone calls you on your bullshit. As usual, no one responded to my questions about the products and gadgets you all possess and collect like the big kids you are. And of course no one actually did any research on Otavalo. Talk about a jamboree of muttonheads. If there's one thing Americans worship it's the mirror, yet they still fail to actually see what the reflection represents. Many of you here are proving this with panache.

    And as for the jerkwater attempt at diagnosing my fusillades via psychology, give me a break. As a nation you glorify prodigality and decay. And I love how PONTI tries to equate a measly profit off some knapsacks to those of an oil conglomerate. Are you stoned out of your gourd? That is maybe the most ludicrous line anyone's ever spit here.

    If any of you were the pure and wholesome crusaders you pretend to be you wouldn't even be on a computer reeling off tomes of twaddle for a few hundred strangers to read. It's funny how all of you claim to be saving humanity and working hard for a better tomorrow - with your mouths. It takes a little more than that, but then again I imagine the bulk of you have shopping, eating more slop and masturbating higher up on your lists of things to do, among your other techniques for combating the loneliness that plagues you.

    So get out your calculators, you brilliant virtuosos, and figure out what $500 bucks gets me after my flight is paid for. Fuck puppets, all of you. Next time you try to toll a bell made of straw remember I'll be right there with a blowtorch to burn it down.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/19/2007 @ 8:14pm

  59. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 2:09pm

    Sorry, CHIMI, if I'm not offering up my life for every lunatic that gets a stalker streak in his head.

    Fortunately, you're "safe" from such as you're hiding out 5000 miles away in the middle of a large South American country.

    BTW, I'm starting a PETER ROTHBERG style boycott...

    No More CHIMICHENGA Knapsacks! Until the poor, exploited knapsack makers of Otavalo are paid a "living wage"...get health care...the right to organize...day care for their kids...and a sizeable TAX on CHIMI's profits (why does a rich American kid need so much money for his "adventures" when so many in South America TOIL for pennies?!??!?!?).

    Remember....buy only Fair Trade knapsacks from Otavalo!!!! Do not line the pockets of the exploitive Americans fattening their bank accounts on the backs of the poor handicrafters!!!!

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 8:29pm

  60. and figure out what $500 bucks gets me after my flight is paid for.-----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 8:14pm

    You screwed yourself up on THAT one, CHIMI.

    You already said that the standard of living in Colombia is MUCH less...so $500 down there would be like a couple grand. Plus it's in dollars...filthy, evil, corrupt American dollars...which means you get more bang for your buck. (Plus throw in the cash Mom and Dad give you)....you're living better than a LOT of Colombians...and probably a HELLUVA lot better than your WORKERS!

    Posted by Mask at 12/19/2007 @ 8:32pm

  61. ¿que tal? chimi.

    espero que te encuentres bien.

    conozco bien el tipo de artesanias que vendes y la gente que las producen. esta gente aqui, como tu bien dijiste, pasa el tiempo comprando chatarra hecho en china o otro país pobre sin pensar en las consecuencias que los trabajadores que las hacen tienen que sufrir.

    sigue comprando tus mochilas y ayudando a la gente pobre del sur.

    estes gabachos ignorantes no tienen idea.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/19/2007 @ 10:21pm

  62. Nike profits jump on international sales

    December 19 2007: 7:26 PM EST

    PORTLAND, Ore. (AP) -- Nike's second-quarter profit grew 10 percent, largely fueled by international sales growth,....

    Nike (NKE, Fortune 500) reported second-quarter net income of $359.4 million....

    Quarterly revenue grew 14 percent to $4.3 billion for the quarter.....

    ------------------------------------------------

    Looky here! The poster child for `exploitation' of third world sweatshops posted a pitiful profit margin of 8.4%. This proves it! CHIMI is the BEST at exploiting...and smuggling, evading taxes and environmental product testing.....

    Posted by Happy at 12/19/2007 @ 11:14pm

  63. Looks like Hill and Bill are taking Clintonianism one step further:

    The National Archives is withholding from the public about 2,600 pages of records at President Clinton's direction, despite a public assurance by one of his top aides last month that Mr. Clinton "has not blocked the release of a single document."

    I can hear Bill now. "Single document? That's right. We're not blocking a SINGLE document!"

    Can this country possibly be insane enough to seriously putting this couple of grifters back in the White House?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/19/2007 @ 11:47pm

  64. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/19/2007 @ 11:47pm

    when are you going to understand that bushclintonbushclinton means just more of the past 7 years that have made you so happy?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/19/2007 @ 11:54pm

  65. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/19/2007 @ 8:14pm

    So get out your calculators, you brilliant virtuosos, and figure out what $500 bucks gets me after my flight is paid for. Fuck puppets, all of you. Next time you try to toll a bell made of straw remember I'll be right there with a blowtorch to burn it down.

    CHIMI, I fail to see how that little tirade of yours even begins to address the issue of your exploitation of the native labor force of knapsack makers in Otavalu. Words like environmental compliance, child labor laws, decent living wage, and occupational safety may mean nothing to you in your balls-out lunge for the almighty dollar, but I assure you, to us these words MEAN something.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:15am

  66. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:15am

    so you don't buy "madeinchina" anymore?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:24am

  67. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:24am

    so you don't buy "madeinchina" anymore?

    Not unless they're cheaper.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:34am

  68. Not unless they're cheaper.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:34am

    so, you don't care about environmental compliance, child labor laws, decent living wage, and occupational safety?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:45am

  69. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 1:58pm

    MBB,

    Most of the southern baptists I know are pretty much clueless. They are indoctrinated into a view of hatred towards anyone thinking or believing differently than them. If you don't believe the way they do, you're not a good Christian person. If I've heard that once, I've heard it a thousand times out here.

    If you lived out here and didn't notice this, either you are deaf and blind, or are one of them and defending their ignorance.

    Just the same as Kerry's patriotism being put into question, Cleland's was. Nothing was said about their opponents patriotism. We'll say you are right and Kerry only got a scratch for a wound. Let's compare that wound from combat to George W Bush's. Oh, that's right, W is sitting it out in the reserves. How come W's patriotism wasn't brought under fire? You can't have it both was MBB.

    The Cleland and W tricks were Rovian tricks. Attack the person on the strong points and minimize those strong points.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 07:02am

  70. Your attempt at deflection will not work.

    You are a liar. Period.

    Posted by DR DECIBELS 12/19/2007 @ 6:48pm

    Thank you Dr. DB. I thought I was the only one seeing that. MBB has been trying the end around every time. His reasoning goes something like this.

    Kerry got the purple hearts and Cleland didn't so Kerry is a bad guy. He completely glosses over the fact that it was his rethug buddies who put into question either one of these guys' service record. Both of these guys were wounded in combat MBB you dumb shit. Neither one of them should be questioned on their patriotism!!! What the hell is wrong with you?

    And once again, we have W, Chenney, Rummy, Rice, Wolfowitz, Rove, Gonzo, Bremmer and the rest of his chicken shit patriots who aren't questioned about their patriotism with their service record in the military being nil. The closest W ever got to combat was when he landed on the aircraft carrier and the said the infamous, "mission accomplished".

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 07:35am

  71. The mission WAS accomplished.

    Did you miss it?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 07:42am

  72. The swiftboat vet's hurt Kerry's credibility because he was happy to let people believe this war hero thing. Yes, he acted bravely, but so did people like Max Cleland who made much bigger sacrifices. Your sacrifices aren't measure in medals.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/19/2007 @ 7:19pm

    Oh, and where the eff are W's sacrifices? You guys hammered on Clinton sitting it out, what about W and his fat boy counterpart Dick Cheney? You aren't pointing out anything other than the fact that you are being a hypocrit as your Godly party has been hpyocritical calling war heroes cowards or fakes while they pose cowards and fakes as war heroes. You are the one who is delusional here, not the rest of us MBB.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 07:42am

  73. The mission WAS accomplished.

    Did you miss it?

    Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 07:42am

    Sir Crab,

    If you running our country into the ground was the mission, then you are definitely correct, Mission Accomplished.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 07:45am

  74. If you running

    Sorry, Meant to say, if running our country into the ground was the mission....

    I need my morning java bad.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 07:46am

  75. Yahoo news:

    BOSTON (Reuters) - With many U.S. chief executives taking home millions of dollars in pay, it is no shock that average workers regards them as overpaid. But that attitude extends to the corner office as well.

    Sixty-four percent of top executives view CEO compensation as excessive, according to survey released on Tuesday.

    The poll of 1,572 readers of BNET.com, a business Web site, found that, overall, 77 percent of employees regarded CEOs as overpaid. The survey, of readers of the Web site, was conducted June 11 through 18. About 90 percent of respondents were from the United States.

    Fifty percent of CEOs surveyed said their leadership style was effective, but only 38 percent of employees agreed.

    ------

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:45am

    FLogic does not answer tough questions. Of course he does not give a rats ass about clean air and water or child labor. He cares about cheap.

    He cares about democratic witch hunts that don't involve democrats. It takes a lot of time to do that, not leaving much left over for concern about water quality for the next generations. The necessity of clean water is a hippy lie anyway, we can pay some corporate entity to clean it for us, after they pump their effluent into the aquifer.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 07:48am

  76. Posted by WOLFGANG1 12/20/2007 @ 07:46am

    consolidating power and wealth is one mission also.

    Again, the neo-conundrum: they say they want competition, but then they come around and say things like the FCC, "We need consolidation in the media, too much competition is bad, bad, bad".

    "Unions should not be allowed to have collective bargaining , but CEO's should be able to hire compensation consultants"

    Forbes.com:

    The chief executives of America's 500 biggest companies got a collective 38% pay raise last year

    did their employees get the same pay raises? Who needs employees anyway, it is all about the CEO leadership.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 07:54am

  77. Forbes continued

    For the second consecutive year, the chief who delivered the most value for the money is John Bucksbaum of General Growth Properties (nyse: GGP - news - people ), a real estate investment trust. Over the past six years, Bucksbaum has been paid a modest $723,000 a year in each year, while delivering a 39% annual return to shareholders. Since he took over as chief in May 1999, he has delivered an annual 29% return to shareholders, which is significantly better than the 2% annual return of the S&P 500 of that period.

    Also for the second consecutive year, at the bottom of our performance/pay rankings is Richard A. Manoogian, chief executive of Masco (nyse: MAS - news - people ), a manufacturer of housing products such as faucets, gutters and cabinets. Masco's six-year annual return of 5% lagged in comparison with Masco's sector, which includes a number of building materials' companies. Manoogian has been collecting a paycheck averaging $11 million a year.

    This year, we not only tracked chief executive compensation, but we also looked at the kingpins who run private equity and hedge funds. Reaping the rewards of percentage fees, the 20 top Wall Street fund managers earned an average of $658 million in 2006, versus $145 million for the 20 highest-paid chief executives.

    Obscene. Supply side Jesus would be proud, Jesus would be concerned.

    Gonna be a back up when all of these fat camels try to get through that needle.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 08:01am

  78. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:45am

    so, you don't care about environmental compliance, child labor laws, decent living wage, and occupational safety?

    Of course I do. I just don't think it's up to me to tell the Chinese how to run their country. I'll leave that up to you imperialist Canadians.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 08:06am

  79. 10-17% of American children live in poverty, depending on whose stats one chooses to believe.

    20 pigs made an average 658,000,000 dollars IN ONE YEAR!! 20 slightly less fat pigs made 145,000,000 in ONE YEAR!!!

    Who defends the pigs the most vociferously?

    The self described Christ followers.

    Sick, sick, sick.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 08:07am

  80. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 08:01am

    Obscene. Supply side Jesus would be proud, Jesus would be concerned.

    Hey CRABBIE. My neighbor made $15 million when he invented a new diagnostic technique for breast cancer using the MRI. Do you classfify that as obscene? And if so, what do you think the women whose lives were saved think? Or should we jsut wait for FROSTY's non-profit health care system to come up with these life-saving advances, just as they came up with uh...er...diddly else?

    How about A-Rod's contract with the Yankees? Is that obscene? I'm deferring to you as you have set yourself up as the ultimate arbiter of these kinds of things.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 08:09am

  81. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 08:06am

    But, it was up to you to tell the Iraqis and the Iranians and the N. Koreans and the Libyans how to run theirs.

    And it is up to you to decide whose products to buy; support democratic America, or Communist China. Apparently you support the commies.

    Have fun finding your way to "work" today Flogic.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 08:10am

  82. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 08:09am

    Gee, I thought the Bible was the arbiter?

    See ya, PONTIFLOGIC The Wrong.

    " No other country has thanksgiving".

    hahahahaha.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 08:13am

  83. Of course I do. I just don't think it's up to me to tell the Chinese how to run their country. I'll leave that up to you imperialist Canadians.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 08:06am

    but when you purchase it, you support it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 08:33am

  84. Bucksbaum has been paid a modest $723,000 a year in each year, while delivering a 39% annual return to shareholders

    That's considered modest? Holy crap!! I know that if you measure this by executive standards it may be modest, but nobody's work is that much better than the next guys. This is all horseshit. It's the executive and CEO's trying to justify their outrageous pay scales while screwing their employees.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 08:39am

  85. Who defends the pigs the most vociferously?

    The self described Christ followers.

    Sick, sick, sick.

    Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 08:07am

    Couldn't have said it better Crab.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 08:40am

  86. Or should we jsut wait for FROSTY's non-profit health care system to come up with these life-saving advances, just as they came up with uh...er...diddly else?

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 08:09am

    are you going to make me post the loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooong list of canadian medical advancements AGAIN?

    just admit you're wrong so i can save some blog space.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 08:41am

  87. all you need to know is that the same posters who are crying crocodile tears for the poor exploited central americans as they rail against Chimi, are the ones decrying any improvements made here for the lowest income workers.

    one asshole, starts with P, actually criticizes Chimi for exploiting and practically in the same sentence blithely supports China, a wellknown exploiter of its people.

    Mask of course is the same jerk no matter what the subject.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 08:50am

  88. But Bush didn't run as a war hero. He ran as a guy who admitted that he was very irresponble in his "youth" and stopped drinking at 40 (cue picture of Bush holding his twin girls.) He didn't admit to all the cocaine that he did, but he didn't have to because middle America accepted that admission.

    Ya, and Clinton went through impeachment proceedings for lying about a bj. So forgiveness is ok as long as you are a born again nutcase, but if you don't have the guts to tell your wife that you were screwing around on her in front of an entire nation, you should be impeached? Something wrong with this picture MBB?

    Like I said, you and the rest of the rethugs are a lying party of hypocrits and will say and do whatever it takes to win elections whether it be lying out your asses, falsely accusing people of things they didn't do ...take a look at what Rove and Bush did to McCain in South Carolina in the rethug primaries for the 2000 election

    You assholes sunk to the level of calling Clinton's daughter names. Rush Limbaugh, Senator McCain and a whole slew of Jesus followers. I'm not going to buy into your B.S. MBB. You are the ones throwing the proverbial shit at people and wrote the book on it. You have to because you can't run on issues. Republican issues are corporate issues and don't help your average American. They help the top 10% or so, but the rest of the country has to pay for your greed.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 08:52am

  89. Mask of course is the same jerk no matter what the subject.

    Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 08:50am

    Ouch!

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 08:53am

  90. This is way off the subject, but check out the link below. If this is really safe to use, it may turn out to be the thing of the future.

    http://www.nextenergynews.com/news1/next-energy-news-toshiba-micro-nucle ar-12.17b.html

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 09:08am

  91. I suspect most of Putin's "success" came from a 100% increase in crude oil prices.

    Until the March 28, 2000 adoption of the $22-$28 price band for the OPEC basket of crude,

    oil is now what $90 or more per barrel? again you know nothing yet you fling your ignorance upon these pages.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 09:32am

  92. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 08:10am

    Hmmm...as usual, you give up on the point so of course you change the subject. Okay, I'll indulge you today.

    But, it was up to you to tell the Iraqis and the Iranians and the N. Koreans and the Libyans how to run theirs.

    How typical of you to defend some of the worst, most murderous regimes in the world against the US. Of course, we know Saddam's Iraq violated its peace treaty, and almost all major political figures in the US, including your Democratic Party heroes, are on record as believing they were developing WMD and nuclear weapons. As far as I know we haven't started telling the Iranians or the N. Koreans how to run their affairs. Funny how you would choose to defend a mass-murderer, a vicious theocracy and a communist slave state against the US, however. Kind of reflects your world view I would say.

    And it is up to you to decide whose products to buy; support democratic America, or Communist China. Apparently you support the commies.

    The Chinese are only nominally communist at this point. Trading with them can only help them even more. But I guess that's too nuanced an approach for you to understand.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 09:39am

  93. Mask of course is the same jerk no matter what the subject.----Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 08:50am

    Gee, ZORAN....make up your frickin' mind, huh?

    "Mask is the most astute and perceptive blogger on this site."----Posted by ZORAN 12/19/2007 @ 11:24am

    BLOG | Posted 12/17/2007 @ 10:52pm New Jersey Leads on Capital Punishment by Katrina vanden Heuvel

    LOL!

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 09:58am

  94. BTW, can I call it or can I call it...

    Same thread---

    Mask is the most astute and perceptive blogger on this site.----Posted by ZORAN 12/19/2007 @ 11:24am

    Thanks for the sentiment.

    Won't last long though....heheh

    Posted by MASK 12/19/2007 @ 1:47pm

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 10:00am

  95. I'm sorry you missed this. hahahahahahahaha

    Mask is the most astute and perceptive blogger on this site.

    -due to an unfortunate error by our editorial department the above was posted in error. what should have been posted is that Mask is an unbearable buffoon. the management regrets the error.

    Posted by ZORAN 12/19/2007 @ 2:44pm | ignore this person

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 10:08am

  96. The Chinese are only nominally communist at this point.

    yeah, right. whattajerkicus.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 10:10am

  97. Posted by WOLFGANG1 12/20/2007 @ 09:08am

    wow. wonder what it uses for fuel.

    it says 5¢ per kilowatt hour as being half grid cost. i pay 5¢ in ontario.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 10:25am

  98. A good lawyer is the difference between, well, being President of the USA and being a bitter loser.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 09:11am

    yep. that's what makes america great!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 10:28am

  99. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 09:39am

    i'm sending mr mcarthy your name.

    hmmmmm, let me see.........

    dear joe,

    pontiflogicus whole heartedly supports the communist regime in peking (old school, like you joe).

    he cares nothing of the plight of mercury poisoned, sweatshop enslaved kiddies. he just wants his running shoes cheap because he needs 17 pair.

    perhaps you could have him appear before your hearings to explain his robust support for the red machine,

    yours truly,

    fz.

    *click*

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 10:34am

  100. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 10:34am

    pontiflogicus whole heartedly supports the communist regime in peking (old school, like you joe).

    Absurd straw man. Oviously I don't 'wholeheartedly support' any communist regime. The liberalizing (real definition) power of trade is the most powerful weapon we have to help other countries. Again, a nuanced position, perhaps lost on you.

    he cares nothing of the plight of mercury poisoned, sweatshop enslaved kiddies. he just wants his running shoes cheap because he needs 17 pair.

    There are worse regimes causing worse problems in the world than countries that haven't become wealthy enough to live up to our standards, FROSTY. You should know, you and your ilk support them because they share your hatred for the best parts of American society.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 10:41am

  101. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 10:08am

    Oh, ZORAN, you loved me and thought I was astute and perceptive....

    when I was agreeing with you, of course!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 10:43am

  102. The liberalizing (real definition) power of trade is the most powerful weapon we have to help other countries. Again, a nuanced position, perhaps lost on you.----Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 10:41am

    Well, see there's some bipartisanship....I'm sure PONTI would agree that we should drop the Cuban embargo, right?

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 10:45am

  103. Posted by MASK

    no, it was a set up. you were punked, punk

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 10:46am

  104. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM

    they are frothing at the mouth. if only my cappuccino maker worked as well

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 10:48am

  105. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 10:45am

    Well, see there's some bipartisanship....I'm sure PONTI would agree that we should drop the Cuban embargo, right?

    I don't feel very strongly one way or the other about the Cuban embargo MASK. Again, here you are demanding a foolish consistency when none is called for. There are some regimes that are immune to the liberalizing power of trade, Cuba and North Korea are two. Saddam-era Iraq is another. China is NOT immune, and as the middle class in that country grows, you can expect the Communist Party to become even more of a sham until final collapse. See how that works?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 10:50am

  106. There are some regimes that are immune to the liberalizing power of trade, Cuba and North Korea are two.

    nonsense. why not compare conditions in Cuba with conditions inside Saudi Arabia, to name just one.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 10:59am

  107. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 10:59am

    nonsense. why not compare conditions in Cuba with conditions inside Saudi Arabia, to name just one.

    Well, people are free to leave Saudi, for one thing, whereas Cuba is a virtual prison. For another, like everyone else we have virtually zero influence with Castro, while we have significant influence with the Saudis because they depend on us for trade and for national security. Those are some pretty big differences.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 11:04am

  108. and we have used that significant influence for human rights, for women, dissenters. yeah right. you too are a pathetic buffoon, buffoonicus.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:06am

  109. they are communist in name only...they are indeed authoritarian, but so is the DMV here...

    the second part of this nonsense negates the first. from all reports the Communist Party is alive and well in China.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:17am

  110. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 10:41am

    hmmmmmmm,

    so i hate:

    jazz

    cajun

    creole

    tex mex

    blues

    bluegrass

    rock and roll?

    hmmmmm...................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:19am

  111. Well, see there's some bipartisanship....I'm sure PONTI would agree that we should drop the Cuban embargo, right?

    Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 10:45am

    thank you.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:19am

  112. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 10:50am

    Ahhhh...somehow I figured that "Oh, but it won't work with Cuba!" would soon be issueing forth from you.

    Everybody on the Right has no prob dealing with China...and saying it will lead to liberalization and improvement...but mention CUBA, and suddenly "Huh-huh! Won't work with Cuba, because...because...uh....uh....it's different!"

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 11:20am

  113. no, it was a set up. you were punked, punk----Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 10:46am

    Yeah, yeah....THAT's the ticket...it was a "set-up"! And now, ZORAN's going back to see his wife...uh...Morgan Fairchild!

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 11:21am

  114. Mask, I knew vanity was your achilles heel. chump.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:31am

  115. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 11:20am

    Everybody on the Right has no prob dealing with China...and saying it will lead to liberalization and improvement...but mention CUBA, and suddenly "Huh-huh! Won't work with Cuba, because...because...uh....uh....it's different!"

    Could that be because...it actually IS different? Has that thought ever occurred to you?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 11:37am

  116. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 11:06am

    and we have used that significant influence for human rights, for women, dissenters. yeah right. you too are a pathetic buffoon, buffoonicus.

    Actually, if you bothered to inform yourself as to what goes on between us and the Saudis you would discover that we can and do use our influence in that country. The fact that they are not willing to change their society to suit us in every way does not belie that fact.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 11:39am

  117. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 11:37am

    hypocrite.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:40am

  118. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 11:37am

    what about venezuela? they're proto commies in line with fidel's plan to turn america into an agrarian death camp.

    bad chavez.

    oh wait, they've got oil, too.

    nevermind.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:44am

  119. the reason cubans leave Cuba in rickety boats is the Us "wet feet, dry feet policy". if they are intercepted on the water they're in, otherwise they are sent back.

    buffoonicus, why not cite an independent source as to whether or not Cubans are free to leave their country. I have found no sources for this on google one way or another. we must remember the embargo also is on information coming out of Cuba.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:49am

  120. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 11:37am

    Okay, PONTI...willing to learn. Give me the top 3-4 things different between China and Cuba that you think means we should trade with one and not the other?

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 11:49am

  121. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 11:49am

    ZORAN, are you arguing that Cubans DO have the right to leave Cuba freely?

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 11:51am

  122. Posted by MASK

    I am agnostic on this. I have not seen an independent citation.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:54am

  123. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 11:49am

    i knew quite a few cubans in mexico who would go back and forth.

    just anecdotal.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:55am

  124. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 11:49am

    Okay, PONTI...willing to learn. Give me the top 3-4 things different between China and Cuba that you think means we should trade with one and not the other?

    Well, it seems to me the most important reason is the structure of the leadership. Castro, like Kim Il Sung and Saddam, runs his country with an iron fist. There is no dissent tolerated, and any accommadations with the leadership works to the advantage of the leadership and to the disadvantage of the common folk. China's leadership is more fragmented, making it more amenable to persuasion. Also, I believe that Asians are natural entrepreneurs and that trade is an especially powerful draw to Asian societies.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 11:56am

  125. Castro, like Kim Il Sung and Saddam, runs his country with an iron fist. There is no dissent tolerated, and any accommadations with the leadership works to the advantage of the leadership and to the disadvantage of the common folk.

    kinda like...you guessed it, Saudi Arabia.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 11:59am

  126. Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 11:54am

    You're..."agnostic"...on whether Cubans are free to immigrate?!?!??

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 12:01pm

  127. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 11:56am

    a hypocrite AND racist, too!

    boy, i bet you like to hunt morning doves, too.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:02pm

  128. boy, i bet you like to hunt morning doves, too.

    they're not morning doves, they are not evening doves, they are mourning doves.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

  129. Okay, PONTI...let's look-

    1. "runs his country with an iron fist. There is no dissent tolerated, and any accommadations with the leadership works to the advantage of the leadership and to the disadvantage of the common folk. China's leadership is more fragmented, making it more amenable to persuasion."

    So, the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China...is "fragmented". What evidence do you have of that?

    and 2. "I believe that Asians are natural entrepreneurs and that trade is an especially powerful draw to Asian societies."

    So Asians are more entrepreneurial than Latinos?

    Huh.....huh.

    Also, I believe that Asians are natural entrepreneurs and that trade is an especially powerful draw to Asian societies.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 11:56am

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

  130. The Chinese leaders are great, wonderful people. Full of the entreprenualship of the good ole U.S. Just ask any Tibetan you happen to meet.

    Posted by FritztheCat at 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

  131. SANTA CLARA, 10 de enero, 2004 (www.cubanet.org) - Un alto funcionario del Departamento de la Dirección de Inmigración y Extranjería Cubana (DIE), acaba de anunciar oficialmente en La Habana que ese departamento trabaja para implementar los procedimientos que se requieren, para garantizar las medidas anunciadas por el canciller cubano Pérez Roque, en cuanto a que a partir del primer trimestre del año en curso, los cubanos que residan en el exterior y que tengan toda su documentación habilitada, puedan visitar a Cuba, cada vez que lo deseen, sin necesidad de solicitar permiso de entrada en los consulados cubanos en más de 40 países alrededor de mundo.

    this says that cuban nationals living in 40 countries around the world are free to visit cuba without a visa. so i guess they can leave without being thrown in prison.

    i'll see if i can find their policy regarding residents.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:07pm

  132. they are mourning doves.

    Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

    yep. thanks. zenaida macroura.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:09pm

  133. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:02pm

    a hypocrite AND racist, too!

    I realize that this doesn't square well with your knee-jerk view of the world, FROSTY, but different cultures really are, well, different. I doubt if your programming allows for this concept, however.

    boy, i bet you like to hunt morning doves, too.

    You mean mourning doves? I've never hunted, actually. Don't really see the point.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:09pm

  134. China, one of the world's oldest civilisations was at one point ahead of the west in just about everything. they were a great seafaring nation, preceding the Europeans. they have also been known as traders and shopkeepers all over the world. this cannot be said about Latinos, though of course generalizations are always imprecise.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 12:09pm

  135. Point 1) China didn't start their current government by stealing a bunch of American property.----Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

    So if the Cubans promise to pay back AT&T and United Fruit....you got no problem with trading with them?

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 12:09pm

  136. Point 1) China didn't start their current government by stealing a bunch of American property.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

    hmmmmmmmmm,

    where shall we begin?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:10pm

  137. The Chinese leaders are great, wonderful people. Full of the entreprenualship of the good ole U.S. Just ask any Tibetan you happen to meet.

    Posted by FRITZTHECAT 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm | ignore this person

    or their muslim minorities.

    zenaida macroura.????

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 12:12pm

  138. Niegan visas a economistas cubanos para viajar a EE.UU

    La Habana, 27 oct (AIN) El gobierno estadounidense denegó visas en los últimos meses a dos dirigentes de la Asociación de Economistas y Contadores de Cuba (ANEC) para viajar a Estados Unidos, reporta nota del periódico Granma.

    Solicitadas para asistir a dos eventos profesionales, las visas fueron denegadas a los profesores Roberto Verrier Castro y a la doctora Esther Aguilera Morató, presidente y vicepresidenta de la ANEC, respectivamente, e igualmente vicepresidente y secretaria permanente de la Asociación de Economistas de América Latina y el Caribe.

    here's one! it says the u.s. government refused to issue visas to two cuban economists who wanted to ENTER the u.s.

    too bad, they could have defected. oh well, only freedom is allowed for the chinese.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:12pm

  139. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

    So, the Central Committee of the Communist Party of China...is "fragmented". What evidence do you have of that?

    For one thing, there are many many new millionaires in China who got they way recently through entrepreneurial activity. SOMEBODY is loosening the strings of power, and it ain't the old-line Communists. We know there are many of those still around, because every few years or so they rattle their sabres in the direction of Taiwan. But by all accounts, they are being marginalized as the country prospers through trade. I have actually read quite a bit about modern China, and these are the impressions I am getting.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:13pm

  140. Point 1) China didn't start their current government by stealing a bunch of American property.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 12:05pm

    which they had stolen from the Cuban people. you are an ignorant sot. ignorant of history.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 12:14pm

  141. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:12pm

    FROSTY, can you and ZORAN possibly be as ignorant as you let on? You've got to be kidding, or you are the two most hopelessly naive and underinformed liberals I have met for awhile.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:16pm

  142. I'm not trying to be insulting, ZORAN, but how can ANYONE in today's world NOT be aware that Cubans are not free to leave their country?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:23pm

  143. El gobierno cubano prohíbe que los ciudadanos del país salgan o regresen a Cuba sin obtener previamente un permiso oficial, que a menudo es denegado. El viaje no autorizado puede dar como resultado una acción penal. En mayo del año 2006, la Universidad de Columbia en Nueva York otorgó a Oswaldo Payá, el famoso defensor cubano de derechos humanos, el título honorario de doctor en leyes en reconocimiento por su trabajo. Sin embargo, las autoridades cubanas le negaron la visa de salida, y por lo tanto, no pudo recibir el título en persona.

    the cuban government prohibits leaving the country without permision, which is often denied.

    Asimismo, el gobierno frecuentemente prohíbe a los ciudadanos que cuenten con autorización de viaje llevar a sus hijos con ellos al extranjero, especialmente tener como rehén a los niños para garantizar el regreso de los padres. Dado el temor difundido de la separación familiar forzada, estas restricciones de viaje ofrecen al gobierno cubano una poderosa herramienta para sancionar a los disidentes y acallar las críticas.

    many times the government will not let people with permission to go take their kids in order to guarantee their return.

    En junio del 2004, en un esfuerzo por despojar al gobierno cubano de fondos, el gobierno de los Estados Unidos promulgó nuevas restricciones a los viajes relacionados a la familia a Cuba. De conformidad con estas normas, se permite que las personas visiten Cuba sólo una vez cada tres años, y sólo si los familiares corresponden a la estrecha definición de familia del gobierno americano- una definición que excluye a tías, tíos, primos y otros parientes cercanos que a menudo son miembros integrales de familias cubanas. Justificado como un medio para fomentar la libertad en Cuba, las nuevas políticas de viaje socavan la libertad de movimiento de cientos de miles de cubanos y americanos cubanos y, causan profundo daño a las familias cubanas.

    in june 2004, the u.s government initiated new restrictions on trips to cuba by cuban-americans -- one visit every three years, and only to visit close family (no uncles, cousins, etc.,). this policy has confined the liberty of movement by cuban americans and has caused damage to cuban families.

    http://hrw.org/spanish/docs/2007/01/11/cuba15000.htm

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:39pm

  144. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:23pm

    can you go to cuba?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 12:42pm

  145. FYI - there has never been a country that was actually communist. The "communists" of the Soviet Union, China, Cuba, North Korea, etc., believed in Marx as much as Bush believes in the Constitution (that'd be not at all for those of you scratching your heads). All the countries above were dictatorial and controlled by a ruling party. The distribution of wealth envisionsed by Marx didn't go beyond property and wealth being taken from the masses and given to the few in power. The "communist" label is at its best misleading.

    And the only reason why we trade with China and not with Cuba is because we can get cheap crap from China, and we can get cigars made from cuban seeds from costa Rica.

    Posted by Turk33 at 12/20/2007 @ 12:57pm

  146. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 12:42pm

    can you go to cuba?

    Not legally. But you, as a Canadian citizen can. And you can leave, too, because you're not a Cuban citizen.

    Can SOME Cuban citizens leave? Sure, just like some North Koreans can. But most can't, and if they can, it's often because their families are being held hostage.

    But seriously, FROSTY, this is not rocket science. If you're actually unaware of all of this, I question your sanity. You have to be some kind of retard if you don't know that the Cuban people are virtual prisoners in their own country.

    MASK, are these kinds of folks really the people you feel you have so much in common ideologically?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 12:58pm

  147. But by all accounts, they are ....-----Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:13pm

    WHAT "accounts"? From what source are you learning that the "new millionaires" in China are somehow "marginalizing" the Central Committee in Beijing?

    And even if that were so, that didn't start until AFTER we started trading with China...so why couldn't it happen with Cuba? Castro's going to croak within the next 10 years. (Even a tough ol' bird like him, isn't going to last into his 90s the way he's going). And it took ATLEAST that long to build up trade with China.....so why not?

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 1:00pm

  148. MASK, are these kinds of folks really the people you feel you have so much in common ideologically?----Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:58pm

    PONTI, I don't "feel so much in common" with them...OR you.

    Believe it or not, there are another colors besides "black" or "white".

    Posted by Mask at 12/20/2007 @ 1:01pm

  149. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 1:00pm

    And even if that were so, that didn't start until AFTER we started trading with China...so why couldn't it happen with Cuba? Castro's going to croak within the next 10 years. (Even a tough ol' bird like him, isn't going to last into his 90s the way he's going). And it took ATLEAST that long to build up trade with China.....so why not?

    I never said there weren't good arguments against the embargo. For all I know, you may be right. Like I said, I don't feel strongly about this issue. How's that for a shade of gray? Happy now?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 1:03pm

  150. Back again to gibbet the fellowship of sodden curs and anthropoids who continue to do chuck their flimsy flub dub with eyes wide shut. For the nth time I'd like to stress the fact that no one has done any research on Otavalo and none have ever been there, so the infernos you claim to burn beneath my feet are nothing but brush fires I simply continue to extinguish with a stomp of my foot. The harping on labor laws and working conditions are ridiculous because Otavalo is a giant flea market where anyone is free to set up shop and sell whatever he or she pleases. (Maybe PONTI and his moronic pals should invade Bucks County, PA and make sure no laws are being broken at the $10 tables rented out by local salespeople looking to earn a buck off of crafts, nicknacks and antiques.) If anyone wants proof that the American Mind drinks from a bottomless glass of bilge and disembogues in Lethe let them look no further than the splutterings licked off here which have made this blog yet another haunt of star-splattered imbecility.

    And as far as Cuba goes, you are way off. First, my dearest dolt MARYBRETBAD, pray tell how the US obtained Cuba before Castro "stole a piece of US property"? I'm sure you're another one of those idiots who believes every glass of Dole pineapple juice is a toast to the honest and honorable acquisition of Hawaii, no?

    PONTI, your comments are flagrantly racist when comparing Asians to Hispanics. I've been to Cuba, have you? Of course not. True, Cubans cannot leave the island (in fact, it's illegal to own a boat there), but those who want to leave aren't just compelled to do so because of the conditions created by Castro, but also those engendered by the anachronistic embargo that makes the 11 million people there suffer while Fidel lines his pockets and augments his power, making the impoverished pueblo rely on him ever more.

    Your subtle justification for the injustices, abuses and antagonism of Saudi Arabia makes you a royal hypocrite. But hey, you like millions of others indirectly sponsor terrorism by not only speaking in this fashion, but then go one step further by dropping billions of dollars on them through oil sales. Remember that the next time you fill up your idiot mobile.

    And your cheesy vista of China is so jejune it's scary. So there are a few more billionaires in China. Well, there are almost 1.4 billion people in said nation. How many unemployed are there? How many living in poverty? How big is the swarm of women and children working in the grim sweatshops you so adamantly (and lamely) abhor? What types of improvements to the system are the nouveau riche providing for the masses? What species of benefits do the peasants and laborers enjoy these days?

    Your nescience is leviathan. But anyone who isn't a dunderhead can see this as clearly as day.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 1:06pm

  151. Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 1:00pm

    WHAT "accounts"? From what source are you learning that the "new millionaires" in China are somehow "marginalizing" the Central Committee in Beijing?

    Read any travelogue or diplomatic analysis regarding what's happening in China. I won't try the 'name that source' (and the subsequent 'shoot that messenger') game with you on this because you really should do your own good faith research.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 1:11pm

  152. "you really should do your own good faith research." Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 1:11pm | ignore this person

    Hey Mr. Towncrier,

    How about doing some research on Otavalo so you can back your little indictment of my occasional business transactions here? Come on, PONTI, here's a chance for you to put your money where your dirty mouth is. Do a little gumshoeing, hawkshaw, so I can see where I went wrong by bringing Ecuadorian goods to the US market.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 1:17pm

  153. Just because you don't understand things doesn't mean they aren't real.

    And I've said it a thousand times before. If the Companies didn't pay them tens of millions with stock options for hundreds of millions, they'd start their own companies and sell them for that much or more.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 09:11am

    MBB,

    You are full of it. The people other than the buisnessmen you mentioned produce a tangible product and without them, there is no business. Almost every company that was started was started by an engineer, or someone with an idea that had a niche. The companies then grew larger and larger to accomodate the demand for said product.

    The weenie heads at the top of corporations know nothing of the product, how they work or anything of the like. They are slicked up used car salesmen making business deals over golf vacations and martinis. Any asshole can do that for a living. Try engineering something sometime and then come back and tell me that Mr Briefcase spewing out acronyms he knows nothing about is producing more for his company.

    It's all a big game at that level. It's called bullshit the board of directors. You keep them guessing and baffle them well enough, you can run a company into the ground and still keep your job. On the other hand, if you have enough operating costs and a good product, any idiot can run that corporation.

    One more thing on the brilliant CEO's and corporate chieftons pulling down these huge salaries. If they were so damn brilliant, they'd figure a way to keep the jobs over here as opposed to offshoring to cheaper labor and losing control of the quality of their products. Oh yes, these people make great business decisions. They cut money for R&D and give it to themselves, and then wonder why other companies from other countries are surpassing them. Big friggin surprise there.

    Maybe you can explain to me why our brilliant car company CEO's didn't retool when the Japanese were building more fuel efficient cars 30 years ago. They just continued using the same gas guzzling pieces of crap over and over again without retooling. Sure, it saved money up front, but in the end, they are gettng their asses kicked now not only by the Japanese, but now the Koreans as well. Great stewardship once again.

    By the way, you can't even spell Mozart or Beethoven.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 1:30pm

  154. You should post that link at the Putin article. I suspect most of Putin's "success" came from a 100% increase in crude oil prices. The mini-nuclear reactor would put a halt to that in a hurry.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 09:14am

    Hey, if those things work safely, that would be fine by me. It would be fun to watch the crude market come tumblin down.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 1:32pm

  155. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 08:09am

    Are you seriously comparing the one time windfall of 15million, to the inventor of a profitable device, to the hundreds of millions some people made, pushing paper and scamming their shareholders?

    How much did the company that makes and distributes your friends invention make. And what did that company's CEO take in?

    What about the folks who actually make the device?

    Eric

    Posted by Malcontent at 12/20/2007 @ 1:32pm

  156. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 1:17pm

    CHIMI, I got no problem with you making a few bucks off the local artisans. I just thought it would be fun to use your own rhetoric against you. LOL

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 1:33pm

  157. What about the folks who actually make the device?

    Eric

    Posted by MALCONTENT 12/20/2007 @ 1:32pm

    Those folks don't count. They make a pittance compared to the God like CEO's. Evidently a CEO's bullshit is more valuable than the end product. If that is the case, this country and any other country thinking that way is in big trouble.

    There are still people who can come up with great ideas, but most companies own their patents. But, as corporations whittle away at benefits for engineers and their counterparts, there will be no reason for the engineers to work for the CEO who knows nothing and produces nothing. Without patents, companies collapse. Without products that can compete, companies collapse.

    Really innovative corporations would be keeping the brainpower they have and figuring out ways to harness what they have to their advantage, not ways to dump the brainpower they have so they can purchase cheaper brainpower eleswhere. In the long run, they lose expertise in their product line, lose company knowledge, less control over their products due to outsourcing, and in many cases, less qualified workers working on their products.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 1:49pm

  158. And I've said it a thousand times before. If the Companies didn't pay them tens of millions with stock options for hundreds of millions, they'd start their own companies and sell them for that much or more.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 09:11am

    To start a company you need at least 3 things. 1) Capital 2) A product 3) Patents on your products and ideas. Without any of the 3 your done before you start in this day and age. Most CEO types could probably manage the capital on their own. The rest would have to come from elsewhere. They aren't engineers or innovators, they are bargainers and that's it.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 1:57pm

  159. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 1:33pm | ignore this person

    Uh oh - looks like one of PONTI's little bombs didn't go boom. BTW, the average per capita income in Ecuador is about $3800. If I buy 50 bags at $3 a pop, that's $150 in one day. That's about 4% of a year's earnings for the average José. How is this bad again - because it allows me to purchase a flight to see a relative at death's door or see an aunt get married? Because it brings the novel crafts of Otavalo to a market unfamiliar with them? I'm one hell of a freebooter, huh? Save your grousing for your countrymen who swallow a few dozen condoms filled with coke before leaving Quito...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 2:03pm

  160. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 2:03pm | ignore this person

    God forbid you actually see with your own eyes yet another place you wax moronically about without experiencing it in the flesh. Yeah, what a bad idea. Keep defining the world before seeing it. That's a surefire way to attain unimpeachable wisdom. Friggin swine...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 2:05pm

  161. Yes, very easily. I was in Cancun about a year ago and there was a boat that went to Cuba. I was told they don't stamp your passport so you won't get in trouble. Obviously I had no interest in going, unlike Michael Moore, or Sean Penn, or Robert Redford, or...

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 2:03pm

    Are you sure? I thought it was illegal from our governments position for Americans to visit Cuba?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 2:11pm

  162. I've never hunted, actually. Don't really see the point.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:09pm

    all right, ponti.

    3 points for you.

    your current score: minus 17,345,674

    keep trying.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 2:31pm

  163. oh, and ponti,

    i don't support any regime that oppresses its people.

    like mask says there's more to life than black and white.

    the cubans can't leave, but in many ways they are better off now than under bautista.

    then they could have left, ¿but who would have taken them in?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 2:48pm

  164. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 2:48pm

    the cubans can't leave, but in many ways they are better off now than under bautista.

    So, your position is that on balance, they're better off being slaves?

    then they could have left, ¿but who would have taken them in?

    Mexico?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 3:00pm

  165. I've heard that many blacks were happy as slaves too. There owners also thought they were happier than if they were free. After all, they had universal health care.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 3:03pm

  166. Just like the Cubans do.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 3:05pm

  167. Of course, they're slaves. But they're HAPPY slaves.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 3:05pm

  168. And I don't think Castro calls it 'universal health care'. I think he calls it 'asset management. Or maybe animal husbandry.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 3:07pm

  169. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 3:00pm | ignore this person

    You rank stumblebum. How are the people there slaves? Have you been there? Just because they don't have every freedom you have (such as the freedom to shop til you drop buying baubles you don't need with money you don't have), doesn't mean they are shackled and living in misery. Yes, there is much lack, but if the embargo was lifted people there would have much more. Not only that, but so long as the embargo is in place and travel by gringos forbidden, Fidel can continue to point his finger north and declare that it's the gringos who provoke their suffering, not Castro. Open the doors and let gringos in with their dumb smiles and Levis, Polos, iPods, Nikes and other material symbols of success and the people would hunt Fidel down if their condition continued with all those dollars pouring in from the altruistic and dollar-laden americanos.

    I toured the island and stayed with families everywhere I went, speaking to the natives at every turn and in every local. While they want more, they are proud to live in a society free of drugs, guns, violence, gangs, disease and other modern plagues that accompany capitalism. Now, I'm not advocating socialism or giving a pat on the back to the dictator in La Habana, but there are in fact some things worthy of respect in Cuba. It's not all bad. Hightest literacy rate in Latin America. Lower infant mortality rate than Washington DC. Lower incidence of AIDS and other STDs than anywhere in the US. Universal healthcare and access to higher education. Some of these things evade even the sleepiest American Dreamer.

    Maybe check out the plaza in a place like Trinidad on a Friday or Saturday and see the locals drink rum and dance salsa, often inviting the few foreigners on hand to jump into the mix. Bottom line, the island has its problems, but it isn't a prison. Maybe if virtuosos like you and MARYBRETBAD were allowed to visit they'd see the light...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 3:34pm

  170. You're..."agnostic"...on whether Cubans are free to immigrate?!?!??

    Posted by MASK 12/20/2007 @ 12:01pm | ignore this person

    perhaps you can get someone to explain the difference between immigrate and emigrate, you dolt.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 3:37pm

  171. "U.S. sanctions against Cuba are more restrictive than those imposed on any other country, including Iran and North Korea, and their rigorous enforcement risks diverting government attention from higher-priority counterterrorism tasks, a new government audit has found."

    Posted by Turk33 at 12/20/2007 @ 3:40pm

  172. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 12:23pm | ignore this person

    what someone says everyone knows is often wrong. citation or shut the fuck up.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 3:43pm

  173. "U.S. sanctions against Cuba are more restrictive than those imposed on any other country, including Iran and North Korea, and their rigorous enforcement risks diverting government attention from higher-priority counterterrorism tasks, a new government audit has found."

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/12/19/AR200712 1902291.html

    Yet again, proof that the Bushies are playground bullies, all brawn and no brain. Why'd they pick a fight with Iraq? Because it was an easier target than Afghanistan, even though Osama was actually in Afghanistan, Iraq had no tangible connection with as Aqeda, and had no connection in the slightest with 9/11.

    Why do we continue to strenuously punish Cuba economically and not Iran or North Korea? Because we can. It's like picking on a kindergartner.

    Posted by Turk33 at 12/20/2007 @ 3:44pm

  174. I've heard that many blacks were happy as slaves too. There owners also thought they were happier than if they were free. After all, they had universal health care.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 3:03pm | ignore this person

    this is fucking insane. you are entirely clueless, and a racist to boot. do some research and you will find out the truth about slavery, you creep.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 3:55pm

  175. al amriki wants so bad for the Cubans to be liberated by Castro, whom they've entrenched year after year with their cruel and inhumane embargo. But he's nice enough to grant residency to any Cuban brave (crazy) enough to defy the sharks and then avoid the authorities waiting on the shore to snatch him up (each "political refugee" much touch sand in order to assure this classification), which is only yet another selfish way to exploit the most desperate and cheated of the island by using their insane death trip as an example of how bad life on the island must be, thus further perpetuating the blockade while strengthening Fidel's grip.

    Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 3:55pm

  176. al amriki wants so bad for the Cubans to be liberated by Castro, whom they've entrenched year after year with their cruel and inhumane embargo. But he's nice enough to grant residency to any Cuban brave (crazy) enough to defy the sharks and then avoid the authorities waiting on the shore to snatch him up (each "political refugee" much touch sand in order to assure this classification), which is only yet another selfish way to exploit the most desperate and cheated of the island by using their insane death trip as an example of how bad life on the island must be, thus further perpetuating the blockade while strengthening Fidel's grip.

    Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 3:56pm

  177. al amriki wants so bad for the Cubans to be liberated by Castro, whom they've entrenched year after year with their cruel and inhumane embargo. But he's nice enough to grant residency to any Cuban brave (crazy) enough to defy the sharks and then avoid the authorities waiting on the shore to snatch him up (each "political refugee" much touch sand in order to assure this classification), which is only yet another selfish way to exploit the most desperate and cheated of the island by using their insane death trip as an example of how bad life on the island must be, thus further perpetuating the blockade while strengthening Fidel's grip.

    Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 3:58pm

  178. I've heard that many blacks were happy as slaves too. There owners also thought they were happier than if they were free. After all, they had universal health care.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 3:03pm | ignore this person

    this is fucking insane. do some research and find out what slavery was all about, you racist scum.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 3:59pm

  179. al amriki wants so bad for the Cubans to be liberated by Castro, whom they've entrenched year after year with their cruel and inhumane embargo. But he's nice enough to grant residency to any Cuban brave (crazy) enough to defy the sharks and then avoid the authorities waiting on the shore to snatch him up (each "political refugee" much touch sand in order to assure this classification), which is only yet another selfish way to exploit the most desperate and cheated of the island by using their insane death trip as an example of how bad life on the island must be, thus further perpetuating the blockade while strengthening Fidel's grip.

    Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 4:05pm

  180. I've heard that many blacks were happy as slaves too. There owners also thought they were happier than if they were free. After all, they had universal health care.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 3:03pm | ignore this person

    clueless racist.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 4:06pm

  181. this damned thing won't let me submit!!

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 4:06pm

  182. rape, murder, assault. that was the life of slaves. meanwhile their masters were terrified that they would rise up and kill them all. there were many slave revolts. the documentation is there for all to see.

    Posted by zoran at 12/20/2007 @ 4:15pm

  183. After all, they had universal health care.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 3:03pm

    what crap.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 4:38pm

  184. hey ponti,

    here's something to consider:

    what good is free speech if no one listens to you?

    or if they only listen when you flash a whole bunch of dollars in their face?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 4:39pm

  185. al amriki wants so bad for the Cubans to be liberated by Castro, whom they've entrenched year after year with their cruel and inhumane embargo. But he's nice enough to grant residency to any Cuban brave (crazy) enough to defy the sharks and then avoid the authorities waiting on the shore to snatch him up (each "political refugee" much touch sand in order to assure this classification), which is only yet another selfish way to exploit the most desperate and cheated of the island by using their insane death trip as an example of how bad life on the island must be, thus further perpetuating the blockade while strengthening Fidel's grip.

    Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 4:45pm

  186. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 2:27pm

    Wrong again. I've met many CEO's, worked for them obviously, and am not in awe of their brilliance. I've liked some of them, disliked some of them and would have liked to shove my foot up the asses of a few of them.

    My original point, if you remember, was that these people don't deserve the skewed compensation they receive compared to the folks working for them. They aren't any brighter nor do they crap out gold.

    I have nothing personal against businessmen per say, but I refuse to listen to people tell me how brilliant someone is because he went to Harvard Business School. Any idiot can get a degree in business. It's not that complex. Running a business is not that complex.

    The only thing the high rollers have over anyone is inside connections. Those connections are usually due to family and friends of theirs, not their business skills.

    An extremely wealthy friend of mine, who's grandfather happens to own controlling stock in a few international corporations told me that I'd be wasting my time going to business school. You see, I thought getting a masters in business along with a EE degree would be the way to go. But, he pointed out that it's not what your learn, it's who you know. So, that's why it's so important to go to the "rich man's schools" because that's the crowd that works together. Everyone else is an outsider.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 5:00pm

  187. perhaps you can get someone to explain the difference between immigrate and emigrate, you dolt.

    Posted by ZORAN 12/20/2007 @ 3:37pm

    Man, you're killing me here. I haven't laughed this hard in a whle. Keep up the good work.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/20/2007 @ 5:02pm

  188. Funny how there's a regular comparison of Chávez to Castro yet al amriki doesn't hesitate to throw billions at him for his oil.

    Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 4:45pm

    OH MY, HOW THE TABLES WILL TURN ONCE THE STICKY BLACK STARTS TO FLOW!

    Cuban oil renews embargo debate

    Discovery of sizeable reserves means U.S. trade ban may finally have a cost

    MIAMI - Some facts about America's trade embargo with Cuba:

    --It's been U.S. policy since 1961.

    --It has yet to loosen Fidel Castro's grip on power.

    --It has cost America little strategically or economically.

    Until now, that is.

    From here on out, say a growing chorus of experts, America will pay a price for maintaining its 45-year trade ban with the communist nation -- a strategic and economic price that will have negative repercussions for the United States in the decades to come.

    What has changed the equation?

    Oil.

    To be more specific, recent, sizable discoveries of it in the North Cuba Basin -- deep-water fields that have already drawn the interest of companies from China, India, Norway, Spain, Canada, Venezuela and Brazil.

    Jonathan Benjamin-Alvarado, an expert on Cuba energy matters and a political science professor at the University of Nebraska at Omaha, says America's thirst for oil will soon force a fundamental change in Washington's relations with Havana.

    "I've always argued that we would keep the Cuban embargo in place until we got to the point where it started to cost us something." Today, he adds, "we're almost there."

    Says Phil Peters, vice president of the Lexington Institute, a think tank in Arlington, Va., that defends limited government and free trade, and a Cuba expert: "If Cuba discovers a lot of oil and becomes an oil exporter, the embargo almost becomes an absurdity."

    Then, in May, Spain's Repsol-YPF announced it was partnering with India's Oil and Natural Gas Corp., and Norsk Hydro ASA of Norway to explore for oil and gas in six of the 59 deep-water blocks along Cuba's maritime border with the United States. (Sherritt International Corp., the Canadian oil company, has acquired exploration rights in four of the deep-sea blocks.)

    That raised the eyebrows of many an oil executive, says Jorge Pinon, a former senior executive with Amoco Oil and a research associate at the Institute for Cuban and Cuban-American Studies at the University of Miami.

    In May, with much fanfare, Rep. Jeff Flake, R-Ariz., and Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho, introduced twin bills to the House and Senate that would exempt Big Oil from the embargo.

    Before introducing his legislation, Craig told a reporter that "prohibition on trade with Cuba has accomplished just about zero." Ominously, he added: "China, as we speak, has a drilling rig off the coast of Cuba." (The senator failed to mention that the Chinese are working in shallow water near Cuba's shore, and possess neither the technology nor the expertise to tap Cuba's promising deep-water reserves.)

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14095881/ (edited by fz)

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 5:06pm

  189. the Cuban dictator who was overthrown by Castro was named Batista, Mr. Zoom

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 6:30pm

  190. JOMMAMA, the citizens may have no interest in communism, but the guvt is still communist. They still jail people for speaking out, for being religious. They torture people (I know, I know, it's ok to do that to your "enemies"), they occupy lands that should not belong to them. They threaten free nations with war, the do business with Burma and Sudan to mention 2. The Chinese communist guvt benefits from your business. The business people have appear to have little concern for the environment (gasp!, the environment! meaning the terrarium you live in) or working conditions. Their workers are supplied housing at guvt expense, and limited healthcare at guvt expense. These are leftovers from your alleged extinct communism. These vestiges help create some of the new wealth.

    China is communist, period. Worse than Venezuela.

    PONTI, I know you have logic issues, but do I need to explain the difference between a one time payout for intellectual property versus an annual payout of 154 million for non-guaranteed results?

    Probably.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 6:49pm

  191. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 3:34pm

    You rank stumblebum. How are the people there slaves? Have you been there?

    How would my being there change the fact that they are imprisoned on the island, i.e., they cannot leave? Does the fact that it is illegal to own a boat in Cuba mean anything to you? How is their condition of enforced servitude different from being a slave? Do you think the fact that some of them are happy in their slavery means that they are not actually slaves?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 6:52pm

  192. According to the annual survey by the Berlin-based organization Transparency International, Finland, Denmark, and New Zealand are perceived to be the world's least corrupt countries, and Somalia and Myanmar are perceived to be the most corrupt. The index defines corruption as the abuse of public office for private gain and measures the degree to which corruption is perceived to exist among a country's public officials and politicians. It is a composite index, drawing on 14 polls and surveys from 12 independent institutions, which gathered the opinions of businesspeople and country analysts. Only 180 of the world's 193 countries are included in the survey, due to an absence of reliable data from the remaining countries. The scores range from ten (squeaky clean) to zero (highly corrupt). A score of 5.0 is the number Transparency International considers the borderline figure distinguishing countries that do and do not have a serious corruption problem.

    1. Finland 9.4

    Denmark 9.4

    New Zealand 9.4

    4. Sweden 9.3

    Singapore 9.3

    6. Iceland 9.2

    7. Switzerland 9.0

    Netherlands 9.0

    9. Canada 8.7

    Norway 8.7

    19. France 7.3

    20. USA 7.2

    60. Kuwait 4.3

    61. Cuba 4.2

    67. El Salvador 4.0

    72. Brazil 3.5

    China 3.5

    India 3.5

    Mexico 3.5

    Peru 3.5

    Morocco 3.5

    Suriname 3.5

    79. Georgia 3.4

    Grenada 3.4

    Saudi Arabia 3.4

    Serbia 3.4

    Trinidad and Tobago 3.4

    131 Iran 2.5

    162 Venezuela 2.0

    178. Iraq 1.5, not quite last

    179. Myanmar 2.0

    Somalia 2.0

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 7:04pm

  193. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 6:52pm | ignore this person

    you've already shown that you are clueless where slavery in america is concerned.

    slavery is by the way not over in America. a couple just got convicted of that offense, and many migrant workers are held in slave like conditions.

    the Cuban people rebelled in '59. if things were so terrible there, why have they not rebelled?

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 7:06pm

  194. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 7:04pm | ignore this person

    we're number one

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 7:07pm

  195. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 7:06pm

    the Cuban people rebelled in '59. if things were so terrible there, why have they not rebelled?

    Absolutely BRILLIANT question. By that measure, I suppose, the North Koreans are happy, too, because after, if they're not happy, why haven't they rebelled? Similarly, if the inmates of Auschwitz were unhappy, why did they not simply rebel?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 7:21pm

  196. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 7:21pm

    the Cuban people rebelled in '59. if things were so terrible there, why have they not rebelled?

    Also, I might ask, if the American slaves pre-1863 were unhappy, why didn't THEY rebel? Why, it seems that freeing them might have been a HUGE injustice! Great point!

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 7:23pm

  197. Neo-con manual

    Corruption, fine

    Consolidation closing in on monopoly, fine

    Pollution, [tinyurl.com], fine

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 7:27pm

  198. if the American slaves pre-1863 were unhappy, why didn't THEY rebel?

    they did, many times. you know nothing. the slave owners lived in mortal fear all the time. that was another reason they were so cruel.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 7:34pm

  199. Nobody else has thanksgiving, American slaves never rebelled.

    Pontiflogic in action.

    Gloucester County, Virginia--Sept. 1663-

    New York City Slave Rebellion--1712

    Cato's Conspiracy/Stono Rebellion--1739

    New York Conspiracy--March and April, 1741-

    Gabriel Prosser's Rebellion--1800

    Fort Blount--1816

    Denmark Vesey's Uprising--1822

    Nat Turner's Revolt--August, 1831

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 7:34pm

  200. we're number one

    Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 7:07pm

    Finland, Finland, Finland,

    The country where I want to be,

    Pony trekking or camping,

    Or just watching TV,

    Finland, Finland, Finland,

    It's the country for me.

    Verse:

    You're so near to Russia,

    So far from Japan,

    Quite a long way from Cairo,

    Lots of miles from Vietnam.

    Chorus:

    Finland, Finland, Finland,

    The country where I want to be,

    Eating breakfast or dinner,

    Or snack lunch in the hall,

    Finland, Finland, Finland,

    Finland has it all.

    Verse:

    You're so sadly neglected,

    And often ignored,

    A poor second to Belgium,

    When going abroad.

    Abridged

    -Monty the python.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

  201. Similarly, if the inmates of Auschwitz were unhappy, why did they not simply rebel?

    there was a rebellion in the Warsaw ghetto. your simple minded posts are getting tedious.you are a crashing bore, illinformed and yes stupid.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

  202. Peace

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

  203. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 7:34pm Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 7:34pm

    So, the joint conclusion of you two geniuses is that the Cuban people are happy in their slavery, after all, they haven't rebelled?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

  204. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

    And, of course, again you two geniuses feel the same way about North Korea, because there's been no rebellion there, either?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 7:38pm

  205. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 7:37pm

    there was a rebellion in the Warsaw ghetto. your simple minded posts are getting tedious.you are a crashing bore, illinformed and yes stupid.

    I didn't say the Warsaw Ghetto - I said Auschwitz. Your point is that since there was no rebellion in Auschwitz, North Korea, Cuba, etc. ... that means the people there were and are happy? That's your point? Please let me know, because I have difficulty understanding you geniuses.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 7:46pm

  206. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 7:46pm

    Wow, you guys are making me question all of my presumptions! Those Cuban people, they're happy! The Mariel Boatlift? Simply a weekend regatta! All those people swimming the Florida Strait? Just health nuts after an afternoon swim! Now I get it!

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:05pm

  207. Illegal to own a boat in Cuba? Why that's just the compassion of the Cuban Government, eager to protect the happy inhabitants from the hazards of seafaring! Now I get it! Gosh, you guys really ARE geniuses!

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:08pm

  208. PONTI, you inglorious cur. The reason it is illegal to own a boat is because of the Cubans in Miami trying to lure every last person on the island into Miami. Don't think the US isn't in accord with this decision - just look at the multitude of incidents involving overloaded boats from the DR, PR and Haiti that often lead to mass drownings in US waters. While the gringos like to make Fidel look bad, they don't want every damned Cuban invading Florida because he thinks he'll be living like Tony Montana in a week.

    And as far as slavery in the US goes, try pulling your head out of your ass and thinking about the power and prevalence of TV and advertising, GPS in your cell phones and vehicles, RFIDs in your passports (and even in people's arms in some cases), National Identity cards on the way, the destruction of your Constitution, learned jingoism, your obsession with material rubbish and of course, the patriotic worship of your reflection in the mirror.

    Bowing to a flag isn't a form of slavery? Funny you should speak of rebellion because once the boot truly settles upon your neck you'll be saying "how high?" every time you hear them say "jump!"

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 8:24pm

  209. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 8:24pm

    Hmmm. I see. So our freedom is actually a form of slavery. And the Cubans slavery, is actually a form of freedom. Right? I think I see where you're coming from. Do you, along with CRABBIE and EL DORADO, also believe the Cuban people are mostly happy in their slavery?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:30pm

  210. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 8:24pm

    The reason it is illegal to own a boat is because of the Cubans in Miami trying to lure every last person on the island into Miami.

    So, if I understand you correctly, the Cuban Government is really making the owning of boats illegal because they have the best interests of the populace at heart, by protecting them from all those evil Americans in Miami?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:32pm

  211. Posted by PONTIFICUS

    you are playing fast and loose with language, american slaves were SLAVES, owned by white crackers. the cuban people are not slaves, except perhaps metaphorically. there is a big difference. but you are not interested in anything but seeing yourself "talk" but you are a jerk.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 8:46pm

  212. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 8:32pm | ignore this person

    Think about if, Fucko. Just as opening the border with Mexico would unleash a stampede stretching down to Panama, so too would the possession of boats by the general population. Of course, there are boats for the rich, such as in places like Varadero, but they obviously aren't going anywhere. You ever hear of checkpoint Charlie?

    It's a shame the republic is infested with plankton like you, PONTI.

    And as far as the slavery gringos succomb to, well, it's more insidious seeing as how most don't realize they're chained to the evermore evasive American Dream, sinking into debt as they go slugging through checkout lines. You too are enslaved, only your slavery is imposed by pleasure and mindless distraction, not forced labor or re-education camps. This is why the truth drowns in a sea of irrelevance while the lot of you cudgel one another with meaningless catchphrases and hollow shibboleths as the rulers detonate one freedom after another in the name of security, leaving you thinking you're safer when in fact you're only securing your destiny as a cowering lamb in a nation ruled by wolves.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 8:47pm

  213. auschwitz was a death camp. Cuba is not a death camp. you are a jerk. who do you think you are peddling this obvious crap?

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 8:50pm

  214. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 8:46pm

    you are playing fast and loose with language, american slaves were SLAVES, owned by white crackers. the cuban people are not slaves, except perhaps metaphorically. there is a big difference.

    Oh, really? What's the difference between the slaves in Cuba and the black slaves in the Old South? Is it that the Cuban slaves are happy? Please enlighten me, oh genius, regarding what this big difference is.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:50pm

  215. simpletons such as P. are easy to demolish. too easy.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 8:53pm

  216. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 8:50pm

    auschwitz was a death camp. Cuba is not a death camp.

    To the extent that there is a difference in degree, you are right. But you said that since there had been no revolt in Cuba, this 'proves' that the people there are happy. I simply pointed out that by this standard, the people in Auschwitz and North Korea must be/have been happy too. Did you wish to elaborate a little on your statement then?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 8:53pm

  217. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 8:47pm

    Just as opening the border with Mexico would unleash a stampede stretching down to Panama, so too would the possession of boats by the general population.

    Okay, genius, if this is just an immigration issue, then why doesn't every other Caribbean nation, including Mexico, outlaw the owning of boats? Why is it only a problem for Cuba?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:02pm

  218. But you said that since there had been no revolt in Cuba, this 'proves' that the people there are happy.

    I said no such thing, you worm.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 9:03pm

  219. CUBANS ARE NOT SLAVES. for the last time. you are an insult to humanity.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 9:05pm

  220. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 9:05pm

    CUBANS ARE NOT SLAVES. for the last time. you are an insult to humanity.

    Say it a few more times. Maybe you'll convince YOURSELF.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:07pm

  221. P. you have been demolished. my work here is done.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 9:10pm

  222. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 9:03pm

    But you said that since there had been no revolt in Cuba, this 'proves' that the people there are happy.

    I said no such thing, you worm.

    Here's what you said:

    Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 7:06pm

    the Cuban people rebelled in '59. if things were so terrible there, why have they not rebelled?

    It's obvious to most people why they haven't rebelled: they've got Castro's boot on their throat, just as Saddam had the Iraqis and Kim Il Sung has the North Koreans. I'm just curious as to why that's not obvious to you, oh genius.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:11pm

  223. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 9:02pm | ignore this person

    Again, I'll drop some knowledge on your bulbous but empty head. Many people in Central American and the Caribbean are among the 1 billion poor souls on this planet who scrape by on less than a dollar per day. Also among their numbers are many who fall into the other billion who eke out an existence on two bucks a day. If you've been to these places, as I have, you'd see the level of poverty and ignorance that reigns supreme, leaving most in the hinterland living and dying in their hardscrabble pueblos and hamlets. I've come across legions of campesinos who don't even know the capital cities of the nations they are citizens of, much less the oceans which they had only heard of by name.

    There is yet another form of slavery that is rampant across Latin America, though to a much lesser degree in Cuba - that leaves much of the masses barely staying afloat. They're slaves of hunger. Not much international exploration going on when you can't stop the pangs of hunger, much less put food on the table for mother and children.

    Have you ever left your bubble, PONTI? You are so ignorant about life outside your country it's risible. Keep it coming - I have my whip at the ready and am almost done confecting your dunce cap.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 9:15pm

  224. ok, just one more. the two statements above are not the same. also Batista had his boot on their neck as well. there down in flames you go again. this is like Cheney shooting ducks.

    Posted by el dorado at 12/20/2007 @ 9:19pm

  225. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 9:15pm

    That's all very educational, CHIMI, but you still haven't explained why only Cuba has to outlaw the owning of boats on immigration grounds. If you don't offer up an explanation soon, I may begin to suspect that you don't have one (i.e., you are full of shit).

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:19pm

  226. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 9:19pm

    Batista had his boot on their neck as well. there down in flames you go again. this is like Cheney shooting ducks.

    Oh. Did Batista outlaw private ownership of boats, too?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:20pm

  227. Do you, along with CRABBIE and EL DORADO, also believe the Cuban people are mostly happy in their slavery?

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 8:30pm

    Don't put words in my mouth.

    It is very unsanitary.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:22pm

  228. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 8:30pm

    Good God, what an incredibly moronic thing to write.

    You are a piece of work Flogic.

    As well constructed as a flea market Chinese micrometer.

    do you really go about in public? Without a helmet?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:27pm

  229. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 9:22pm

    Don't put words in my mouth.

    It is very unsanitary.

    What, are you saying that they're not happy down there? After all, they haven't rebelled! Just like the North Koreans! How bad can it be?

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:27pm

  230. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 9:27pm

    do you really go about in public? Without a helmet?

    CRABBIE, amid a bunch of Castro apologists, retrograde socialists, and self-loathing expatriate Americans the only thing I need is a sense of humor.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:30pm

  231. Did I forget apologists for Cuban slavery? Yeah, we've got those here too. After all, if the dictator keeps the clamps on tight enough, it ain't really slavery, and it can't be all that bad! LOL!

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:33pm

  232. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/20/2007 @ 9:30pm

    Let us know when it shows up.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:33pm

  233. Are we talking Russia, India, Cuba or Iran?

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 9:32pm |

    You're right.

    That makes it ok.

    But, do tell me who Cuba and Iran occupy.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:35pm

  234. Why is it so hard for you to understand that not only is it possible to have economic growth along with regulation of air and water, labor standards, fair monetary policy and freedom of speech, it is better that way?

    You are willing to tell the Iraqis when and how to overthrow their guvt, willing to go to war, but unwilling to accept criticism of the largest communist nation in the world. Unwilling to have basic rules written into trade agreements.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:43pm

  235. Hillary Clinton shares your beliefs on trade policy.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:46pm

  236. The Register Tuesday, March 20, 2007

    A Chinese writer who published essays questioning the Beijing regime online has been sentenced to six years imprisonment.

    Zhang Jianhong, who wrote under the pen name Li Hong, was arrested and charged with "incitement to subvert state power" last September in a crackdown on cyber-dissidents. The punishment was handed down on Monday by a court in Ningbo, in the eastern province of Zhejiang.

    Zhang, 48, was founder and editor-in-chief of Chinese language humanitarian website aiqinhai.org, and a frequent contributor to The Epoch Times, a New York-based news organisation which publishes independent reports from inside China in multiple languages. He spent two years in prison for his part in the 1989 student democracy movement which was crushed by the Tiananmen Square Massacre.

    The Epoch Times reports that authorities cited 63 articles written by Zhang, many highlighting the plight of jailed lawyer Gao Zhisheng, who had spoken out against Beijing's treatment of followers of the outlawed spritual movement Falun Gong.

    The Australian November 20, 2007

    CHINA has jailed an ethnic Tibetan villager for eight years for "inciting to split the country" after he spoke at a gathering in support of the Dalai Lama's return to Tibet, Xinhua news agency reported today.

    China considers the Dalai Lama, who fled from Tibet in 1959 following a failed uprising against Chinese Communist rule, a separatist, and showing loyalty to him is seen as treasonous.

    "His action led to public besieging of government offices because local people were not clear about the truth, which was a severe disruption of public order," Xinhua cited the verdict in the case of Runggye Adak as saying.

    but, hey, there a bunch of new millionaires, so who gives a shit about some Tibetan villager that wants to be free?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:55pm

  237. Posted by CRABWALK 12/20/2007 @ 9:43pm

    Why is it so hard for you to understand that not only is it possible to have economic growth along with regulation of air and water, labor standards, fair monetary policy and freedom of speech, it is better that way?

    I don't find it hard to understand. I just think you can only have so much of those regulations as you can afford. Growth is first, benefits like that come second because it's the growth that pays for it.

    You are willing to tell the Iraqis when and how to overthrow their guvt, willing to go to war, but unwilling to accept criticism of the largest communist nation in the world. Unwilling to have basic rules written into trade agreements.>/i>

    I agree there's still lots wrong with China. But the country will be civilized first with the influence of trade, and the benefits will come later. You can't put the cart before the horse.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/20/2007 @ 9:56pm

  238. Never been to Spain.

    But I kinda like the music

    Never been to heaven,

    But I been to Oklahoma.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 9:59pm

  239. PONTIFICUS MINIMUS,

    Do you read? Have you ever been to Miami? Spent time on Calle 8? The Cubans there want Castro's head and are willing to do anything that will help make him look bad. Luring their countrymen to FL is one of their principal strategies to smear the regime. If you had half a brain you'd also know that Cubans are the only Hispanics who can simply set foot in the US and attain instant residency. So Fidel combats this tactic by limiting the means by which people can attempt to reach La La Land where most end up working in Winn-Dixie and Publix. How dense are you?

    Re-reading your remarks its not only predictable what your next outburst of idiocy will look like but funny how each and everyone of your posts could be shrink-wrapped and sold on Independence Day. You are such a drone it isn't funny. How many times will you avoid divulging your travels? You speak as if you'd toured as much as Marco Polo yet evince a rustic simplicity when it comes to reeling off your crackerbarrel vistas and well-recited slogans.

    As I mentioned earlier, Cubans have universal health care and access to a college education. While inefficiency, unemployment, corruption etc. are surely big problems, leaving people like businessmen and lawyers to work as waiters, the level of education there is much greater than most Latin American countries. And while you may not believe it, the people of Cuba are quite proud of the little they have. Sure, this may seem ridiculous to you, but is it any more ludicrous than pounding your chest for being the global pug?

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 10:02pm

  240. I just think you can only have so much of those regulations as you can afford.

    Yep, that poor Communist guvt is wallowing in debt. So much that they are buying up pieces of our Wall Street brokerages and financing our little land war in Asia.

    A dragon by the tail.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 10:07pm

  241. $5,000,000,000 is chump change for China, so instead of paying for pollution control they pump it into Morgan Stanley. Will they use the income to buy pollution control?

    I doubt it, but I could be wrong.

    Is it possible the Chinese guvt, the largest communist nation in the world, could influence the operation of a private American firm? Wouldn't that be guvt control of bidness?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 10:19pm

  242. The great irony will come when the Chinese guvt invests in US media conglomerates and then pushes for more open markets.

    Won't it be swell?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/20/2007 @ 10:25pm

  243. Posted by EL DORADO 12/20/2007 @ 6:30pm

    thanks, dude.

    damn, two spelling mistakkes in won day!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:09pm

  244. People diagnosed with cancer who don't have health insurance are more likely to die because they are less likely to get screening tests and so are typically diagnosed with advanced disease,

    "they can always go to the emergency room" G W Bush

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/20/2007 @ 11:15pm

  245. So...a couple of things.

    On China...are they oppressive? Yes! The next thing you have to ask is...what do we do? Do we stop trading with China? That would be a dumb idea, seeing as how they own a huge portion of our economy. Do we try and demand change within the country, strengthening the hardliners and so creating the opposite of what we'd want to achieve? Or...do we trade with them, and help initiate the kind of political reform that is most likely to accompany economic reform (and in fact, is accompanying political reform). Is it perfect? No. It seems, however, to be the best option available.

    On Cuba...also oppressive. I'm sorry, the "but they need to deny boats to protect people!" defense is pretty pitiful. One, as has been pointed out, why does no other nation need to do this? Two, why are Cubans trying to "lure" people to Miami to begin with? Could it be, perhaps, that they see it as less oppressive? Three, as has been pointed out, the lack of a rebellion is not even close to proof that the people enjoy a system. In fact, the systematic imprisonment of dissidents is a fairly good indication otherwise. None of the excuses made for Cuba make any sense.

    Now people might say it's inconsistent to trade with China and not with Cuba. I think they're right in that continuing the embargo against Cuba is dumb, though I would still say that China and Cuba are reasonably distinct cases with regard to their regional dynamics, economic and political structure, etc.

    Posted by Thrawn at 12/20/2007 @ 11:17pm

  246. Posted by THRAWN 12/20/2007 @ 11:17pm | ignore this person

    Holy shit - I now have to give a fucking geography lesson. Do some research and you'll see that not only do boats embark from the DR and Haiti, but even from Puerto Rico - all destined for the US of Eden. As for Central and South America - hmmmm, ever hear of the Panamerican Highway? Trains or automobiles? Coyotes? Have any of you magnificos ever been to Latin America? Hay pinche gringo alguno aca que habla español?

    And who is classifying Cuban life as enjoyment? For the ricos, yes, they enjoy it very much. I've spent time with both the rich and the poor across the island and can say that those with money are pretty content while the have-nots own a lot of broken dreams. Sounds like any place, no?

    If Cuba is such a bad place based on such a bad idea why didn't the US just leave it be so it could serve as a perfect example of state failure? Why didn't the US just leave Nicaragua under the Sandinistas to do the same? Could it be the spread of an alternative to the poisonous and oppressive prescriptions doled out by Washington and the international economic bureaucracy?

    God forbid a nation should decide its own fate and follow a path independent of DC...

    BTW, it's pitiful that you gringos don't know more about your own fucking hemisphere, especially since almost 50 million Latinos reside in your Shangri-La.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/20/2007 @ 11:42pm

  247. "They torture people (I know, I know, it's ok to do that to your "enemies"), they occupy lands that should not belong to them. They threaten free nations with war, the do business with Burma and Sudan to mention 2."...

    Are we talking Russia, India, Cuba or Iran?

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 9:32pm

    actually jm,

    those things apply to the u.s., as well

    torture: well, despite what mukasey says, waterboarding is torture.

    occupy lands: hmm, ever heard of iraq?

    threaten nations: hmm, ever heard of iran?

    burma: chevron is an american company.

    sudan: let's check. clickety click click. yep. Baker Hughes NYSE: BHI is the world's third-largest oilfield services company based in houston.

    oh well.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:45pm

  248. if the cuban people rebelled against Batista and the american mafia who were bleeding them dry, and they haven't rebelled against the Castro regime, it is not unreasonable to assume that conditions under Batista and the mob were worse. Dorado said nothing about happy.

    to call the cuban people under Castro "slaves" is a serious perversion of language, and unforgivable coming from an american. to assert that the slaves in america were "happy" and content with their lot is unforgivable coming from a human being.

    when a nation such as Cuba nationalizes their commodities and takes them away from United Fruit, it must be asked how did United Fruit come by these possessions. legally? I think not. did the US come by its holdings in Cuba legitimately? no they stole them from another colonial power. one colonial power supplanting another.

    when we compare conditions inside Cuba with those in China, we can ask, did the Cuban gov't open fire on demonstrators killing hundreds if not more the way the Chinese did in Tienmin square? they did not.

    to insist on evenhanded reporting is not an apology for dictators.

    whether the communist party is more or less communist is not relevant. the ruling party of China has been the communist party since Mao's victory over Chiang kai Check. that is the salient point.

    any supposed US victory over communism must be seen in that context, which reveals that the supposed victory was a partial one at best.

    to defeat repressive ideologies, whether they come from China, Cuba, or Saudi among many others, it is better to engage them economically and politically. it is highly unlikely that the Chinese for example would engage us militarily, because they would never get the money back they lent to the US.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/20/2007 @ 11:47pm

  249. WOLF,

    I challenge you to walk into the guy who runs the company you work for and tell him this to his face...

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 9:39pm

    JM,

    i challenge you to go to tiananmen square and sing my (once again) china song:

    Falun Gong,

    sing my song.

    4 babies for every house.

    ----------------------

    let the tibetans free

    the world can see

    the police state on the march.

    ------------------------

    Hu Jintao is a cow,

    Wen Jiabao an ugly sow,

    when will china be free?

    ---------------

    scream out loud

    strong and proud

    the army won't frighten me

    -------------------

    democracy

    is plain to see

    'cept on google or t.v.

    -------------

    the rural man

    gets fucked around

    driven to the ground

    ---------------

    Hu Jintao is a cow,

    Wen Jiabao an ugly sow,

    when will china be free?

    sing out loud, sing out strong

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:51pm

  250. because they would never get the money back they lent to the US.

    Posted by BIG JAKE 12/20/2007 @ 11:47pm

    wow. safety in debt. now THAT is detente.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:52pm

  251. Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 11:53pm

    sing Jm, sing!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/20/2007 @ 11:59pm

  252. .the gringos I know are well aware of the hemisphere we live in..

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 11:53pm

    well, you brought it up:

    i attended an american university, and to be honest i NEVER found a classmate who knew anything about canada. nothing. just blanks or worse! they knew nothing of their own country's largest trading partner.

    not only that, but in my american lit class the only people with a clue were the korean prof and myself.

    in american history, only a couple had any idea.

    purely anecdotal................................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 12:03am

  253. Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 11:53pm | ignore this person

    Hey genius, ever hear of Allende in Chile, you know, the guy Nixon and Kissinger had killed after the CIA helped run their economy into the ground. Looks like you don't know your hemisphere. Probably don't realize either that the day Allende went down and good old Pinochet took over was September 11, 1973, a day well-known in the region.

    As for your freedom, keep whooping over having to push 1 or deal with Hispanics overrunning your backyard. Something tells me your fine politicians could care less what you think and may just send Fulano de Tal in to take your stinking job. Hahaha. BTW, having lived many years in Latin America there are WAY more people who speak your language here than you think. As for gringos speaking another tongue, hell, most can't even speak proper English these days! Porn, like cocaine, marijuana, Prosac, Big Macs, Tums, guns, and NASCAR tickets all sell better than books in the US. God bless America!

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 12:04am

  254. wow. safety in debt. now THAT is detente.

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 12/20/2007 @ 11:52pm | ignore this person

    there is nothing new about using loans to force other nations to do your bidding. the US has been doing so for a long time in Latin america and in europe among other places. sometimes when the US did not like a new gov't in a country they threatened to call in their loans or refuse loans, unless that country change gov'ts, which is what happened. after WW2 england needed american loans desperately, and had to make many political concession to america to get them. they had no choice sometimes those gov't had to accept american functionaries into their gov't as part of the loan. america also insisted on an open door policy, for everyone but themselves, of course. free markets overseas, and protectionist at home. that has not changed, evidenced by the many timesamerica has been found guilty of trade violations by the world court.all this is well documented.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/21/2007 @ 12:06am

  255. Posted by JOMAMMA 12/21/2007 @ 12:06am | ignore this person

    You're obviously a product of the same environment, perhaps graduated a tad before the landslide of Generation X, Rx and all the other morons coughed up by the dumbest superpower.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 12:10am

  256. I was required to memorize

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/21/2007 @ 12:06am

    to bad you didn't LEARN.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 12:39am

  257. rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

    "too"

    (fucking homophones)

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 12:40am

  258. a homophonephobe I can see.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/21/2007 @ 12:53am

  259. full disclosure: I have always loved Canada. Montreal, the 1000 islands, Nova Scotia, Prince Edward Island and last but not least Vancouver.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/21/2007 @ 12:57am

  260. Posted by BIG JAKE 12/21/2007 @ 12:57am

    america rocks, too.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 01:10am

  261. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/20/2007 @ 6:20pm

    MBB,

    We agree on something. I think I'll have to sign off until after Christmas. Happy Holidays Everyone!!!!!

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/21/2007 @ 06:38am

  262. Recently we learned of a torture chamber found in Iraq, it is claimed that Al Qaida in Messopotamia is the landlord. that remains to be confirmed. I am sure this will be held up by the mongers as yet another reason "we" need to stay and fight in Iraq, but these same clowns will tell us we need to "engage" the Chinese with little to no conditions.

    Evidence has surfaced of over 100 torture methods being employed against Falun Gong practitioners from the year 1999 till now in China's labour camps, detention centers, and mental hospitals, in where over 100,000 practitioners have been detained.

    1. Burning 2. Electric Shock 3. Sexual Abuse 4. Psychiatric & Drug Abuse 5. Force-feeding 6. Savage beatings 7. Freezing and Exposing 8. Water Dungeon 9. Forced Abortions 10. "Death Bed" 11. "Tiger Bench" 12. "Hell Confinement" 13. "Small Cage" 14. Forced to Jump from Tall Building 15. "Flying an Airplane" 16. "Squat" 17. "Handcuffed in a Painful Position" 18. "Tied up" 19. Sitting on "Triangle-ridged Iron Plank" 20. "Carrying a Sword on the Back" 21. "Chain" 22. "Tied to a Bed" 23. "Tortured under a Bed" 24. "Tied to Trees" 25. "Solitary Confinement" 26. "Rope Tying" 27. "Hanging over the Head" 28. "Hanging by Two Thumbs" 29. "Hanging Upside Down" 30. Hung Up for Extended Period of Time 31. "Dog Bite" 32. "Snake Bite" 33. "Cutting of Flesh" 34. "Impaling the Fingers and Toes with Bamboo Stick" 35. "Needle Piercing" and "Toe Smashing" 36. Cigarette Burn 37. The Rampant Spread of Scabies 38. Forced to Sit in a "Sewage Pot" 39. Garbage Stuffed into the Mouth 40. Phlegm Poured into the Mouth 41. Force-Feeding with Urine 42. Force-Feeding with Feces 43. Deprivation of Sleep 44. Restricting the Use of the Toilet 45. Prohibiting the Use of Sanitary Napkins 46. "Covering a Shed" or Suffocation>/i>

    -----

    NEW YORK (FDI) -- The Falun Dafa Information Center recently obtained photographs that provide startling evidence of torture in China at the hands of authorities. The photos reveals horrific mutilation of the breasts of Falun Gong adherent Ms. Wang Yunjie, of Dalian city, Liaoning province, and bespeak of the continued violence perpetrated in China against followers of the Falun Gong. (photos)

    Wang became a prisoner of conscience on May 14, 2002, when she was taken from her workplace by police. Police gave no cause for arrest, only stating that Wang was part of the Falun Gong.

    In an account of Wang's time in captivity provided by eyewitnesses and persons close to Wang in China, guards at the Masanjia Labor Camp reportedly deprived Wang of sleep, subjected her to the elements, bound and hung her, locked her in a bathroom for over a month, and physically beat her. She was also forced to perform labor, including some 300 hours in one month. On one occasion Wang was beaten and kicked by camp guards for six hours.

    In early 2003, two male guards, exasperated at not being able to extract a statement of "repentance" from Wang for her beliefs, tore open Wang's shirt and shocked her breasts with high-voltage electric batons. The torture is said to have lasted for over 30 minutes.

    ..."This is utterly outrageous," said FDI spokesperson Erping Zhang. "This is some of the most disturbing evidence received in recent months that Chinese authorities are continuing to brutalize practitioners of the Falun Gong and disregard Chinese and international law. We continue to see zero accountability and instead culpability at every level of the system"

    Chinese officials continue to deny the torture and abuse of members of the Falun Gong, despite documentation by FDI, Amnesty International, the U.N., and other groups of a combined 40,000 some cases of maltreatment and 2,747 wrongful deaths. Hundreds of thousands, if not millions, are said to be held in China's massive gulag system.

    Information of Wang's torment comes on the heels of an official Chinese Government white paper, Building of Political Democracy in China, in which the regime lauds its "socialist democracy" for having "scored tremendous achievements."

    And here we continue to read the words of apologists for the last remaining communist superpower, who somehow conflate the comparisons of Cuba and China to be support for Castro. People that deride anything socialist, except the cheap labor it provides.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/21/2007 @ 07:52am

  263. Immersion in sewage, ripping out fingernails, sleep deprivation, cigarette burns and beatings with electric prods - these are some of the torture methods used by China's police and prison officers to extract confessions and maintain discipline, a United Nations investigation has found.

    Manfred Nowak, the UN special rapporteur on torture, said yesterday that abuse of suspects and prisoners remained widespread in China. Treatment was far worse than international norms, despite recent signs of improvement.

    -----

    After 16 years, Tiananmen dissident Yu Dongyue was finally freed from prison yesterday, but with his mental health impaired. Amnesty International welcomed his release and called for all others still imprisoned in connection with the crackdown on the 1989 pro-democracy movement to be freed.

    "This is an awful case," said Corinna-Barbara Francis, East Asia researcher at Amnesty International. "Yu Dongyue may at long last be out of prison, but 16 years of wrongful imprisonment with periodic beatings, torture and years in solitary confinement appear to have left him with his mental health severely damaged."

    Yu Dongyue, journalist and deputy editor of the Liuyang Daily, was imprisoned in 1989 for 'counter-revolutionary sabotage and incitement' after throwing paint at the Tiananmen Square portrait of Mao Zedong. He was immediately put into solitary confinement for two years. Amnesty International considered him a prisoner of conscience.

    According to a fellow dissident who visited him later in another prison he was subjected to beatings and torture. He showed scars on his head and other evidence of extensive abuse and appeared to have suffered a complete mental collapse -- he did not recognise life-long friends and kept repeating words over and over. Other inmates said he had been tied to a pole and left in the sun for several days before being locked in solitary confinement for another two years. Upon his release, he reportedly could not recognise family members and kept mumbling to himself.

    -------

    Sister Ma and her family were sound asleep one night in May 2001, when Chinese Public Security Bureau police burst into her house and arrested her, her son and her daughter-in-law. The police left her 5-year-old grandson alone with nobody to take care of him. A 27-year-old woman, a friend and fellow Christian named Yu Zhongju, dropped by the house during the raid and was also arrested.

    According to interviews with members of Sister Ma's house church and statements smuggled out of prison, dozens of church members were arrested at the same time and beaten with clubs, jolted with cattle prods and burned with cigarettes. When they fainted, buckets of water were poured on them to revive them. Interrogators stomped on the fingers of male prisoners and stripped off the clothes of young women prisoners and abused them.

    "They used the electrical prods on me all over," Ms. Ma said, fighting back tears. "They wanted to humiliate us."

    Additional details about Sister Ma's arrest and torture were learned by New York Times columnist Nicholas Kristof, who reported on November 26, 2002, that police in a remote region of China had interrogated a woman named Ma Yuqin, but their efforts seemed unsuccessful. Kristof wrote: "She never broke when she was tortured with beatings and electrical shocks. Even when she was close to death, she refused to disclose the names of members of her congregation or sign a statement renouncing her Christian faith."

    While the physical abuse was almost unbearable, the mental torture was even worse. Throughout her ordeal, Ma Yuquin could hear the sounds of her son being tortured in the next room. They could hear each other's screams-additional incentives to betray their friends and their faith. Recalling this, Ma Yuquin began to sob. "They wanted me to hear (my son's) cries," she said. "It broke my heart."

    According to VOM sources, Sister Yu was beaten to death while in custody. Kristof verified what VOM has been reporting for the past 36 years: This kind of treatment has been common in China for more than half a century. Citizens-whose only crime is worshipping God-are burned with cigarettes, beaten with clubs and martyred for the faith.

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/21/2007 @ 08:00am

  264. These are pictures of house church members in Henan province being tortured by People's Armed Police and Public security squad

    http://www.geocities.com/mstkg/tort.htm

    but hey, the millionaires are spared this, so who gives a shit, right John Maasch? Why don;t you excuse this behavior by bringing up Castro, or Venezuela?

    Posted by crabwalk at 12/21/2007 @ 08:04am

  265. "The Cubans there want Castro's head and are willing to do anything that will help make him look bad."....."And while you may not believe it, the people of Cuba are quite proud of the little they have."---Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 10:02pm

    CHIMI's view on Castro and Cuba seems to be "evolving"....first it was-

    "I DON'T SUPPORT FIDEL CASTRO OR CUBA. What is more, I WOULD SUPPORT A US INVASION OF CUBA IN ORDER TO TAKE OUT FIDEL AND TRULY LIBERATE THE 11 MILLION PEOPLE SUFFERING UNDER HIS REGIME."-----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2006 @ 2:07pm

    then it became---

    "Castro is a bad dude. I've been to Cuba and spoken with the people who suffer on the island. Have you? Is Castro an evildoer? No. Is he a bad guy? Yes. He is no danger to anyone but the people of Cuba. I believe Cubans deserve better and I'd support any native insurrection."----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 10/25/2007 @ 12:04am

    Posted by Mask at 12/21/2007 @ 09:44am

  266. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/21/2007 @ 08:15am

    hmmmmm,

    $358,000,000 ÷ 2 = $179,000,000

    poor soul. how is he every going to get by?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 10:31am

  267. Q. Hey FZ, when was the last time American Terrorists struck Toronto?

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 12/21/2007 @ 08:32am

    Q. april 27, 1813.

    Q. when was the last time iraqi or iranian terrorists attacked the u.s.?

    A. never.

    Q. when was the last time AMERICAN terrorists attacked the u.s.?

    A. December 15, 2007. Omaha, Nebraska. Nine Dead*.

    *the terror comes from within, not afar. i suppose if the killer had been from yemen, that country would have been flattened by now and paved over with starbucks.

    don't you see the nihilistic jihad that is spreading amongst your own people?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 10:41am

  268. My friend was in the Vin Maur store at the time...this guy was a nut job,and 20 years ago he might never have made it "out of the nest....."

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/21/2007 @ 10:46am

    i'm glad your friend is o.k. when i first heard of this ACT OF TERRORISM, i worried about thee and thy nebraska dwelling horde.

    each time one of these TERRORIST ATTACKS* happen, they are explained away as being by some "nutjob".

    *but these TERRORISTS usually attack their schools. what kind of society breeds people that believe killing one's classmates is a viable option?

    like i said, "nihilistic jihad".

    Posted by frosty zoom at 12/21/2007 @ 11:09am

  269. Unvelieveable gaul...

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/21/2007 @ 10:46am | ignore this person

    gallia est omnis divisa in partes tres....

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/21/2007 @ 11:22am

  270. Posted by CRABWALK 12/21/2007 @ 08:00am

    CRABBIE, you are one strange dude. Let's examine your latest ravings:

    Recently we learned of a torture chamber found in Iraq, it is claimed that Al Qaida in Messopotamia is the landlord. that remains to be confirmed.

    It does? As if they deserve some benefit of the doubt? As if it's hard to believe that Al Quaida could be guilty of operating a torture chamber? Bizarre....

    I am sure this will be held up by the mongers as yet another reason "we" need to stay and fight in Iraq

    Uh...YEAAAAHHHHHHHH....

    but these same clowns will tell us we need to "engage" the Chinese with little to no conditions.

    Sooooo....you want what? To invade China? Condition trade on their reforming their society to meet our standards? It would be an awfully lonely world if we did that to EVERY country. Take Canada for example. Their 'Human Rights Commission' prosecutes people for the 'crime' of expressing politically incorrect viewpoints. Should we condition all future trade agreements on correcting these human rights abuses in China?

    CRABBIE, the only thing consistent about your world view is that everything you express is in direct apposition to American initiatives. THAT is why we call you anti-American.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/21/2007 @ 12:48pm

  271. With unrelenting dullness, a smack of idiocy and that sheer idleness so eloquent of solitude, MASK continues to splurge on mediocrity when launching his bush-league ripostes here. Most of us are well-aware of the fact that dodginess is on draught in his scrawls, which boast a heritage of inferiority and abysmal distance from anything en vogue. What is more, his braying, besides being in the idiom of an ass, is the equivalent of what you might expect a greengrocer in Skokie, IL to say about agriculture in China - that is, incoherent bosh interlarded with shop-worn catchphrases and well-recorded echoes gleaned from the multitudes he sees as his betters. And let's not forget that annoying custom he has of cutting, pasting and hoarding posts from many moons ago as if their re-appearance reminded us more of our human tendency to sing an occasional wrong note or alter our melodies than his unique talent for emphasizing his surplus of time and deficit of engagements in the real world.

    MASK, with all your harping on my opinions of Cuba I can only ask, when the last time you were there? Have you ever been to a "communist" country? Ever traveled outside the US?

    Your continued silence on these questions is not only telling and obviously expected, but increasingly welcomed due to the endless parade of soporific evasions you have spewed here in the interval. While I may disagree with Castro it is only because I disagree with most forms of authority, whether they be democratic or totalitarian. My thoughts of Cuba are based on my time touring the island and speaking with the natives.

    You're just another drone who thinks a few books, articles and TV images make you an expert witness of a place you've never been and will never visit, kind of like how a box of Crayolas and a coloring book makes a kid feel like an artist.

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 12:52pm

  272. Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/21/2007 @ 12:52pm

    CHIMI, you are a highly immature and impressionable person. There's a lot about the world that you need to learn, but first you need to ditch the hatred feel for the society that created you.

    Posted by pontificus at 12/21/2007 @ 12:56pm

  273. Posted by PONTIFICUS 12/21/2007 @ 12:56pm | ignore this person

    It's not the society that distresses me, rather the woodenheads who comprise and compose it.

    I notice how you too share MASK's native silence when it comes to confessing to your own ramblings outside the headlines and TV transmissions. It's clear you live on a short leash, barking and howling when not burying bones in your yard, like the ones I've been hurling at your flea-bitten head from the inception of our duels here.

    The only thing you, like most others here, prove with your patriotic inebriation and media-controlled incantations is an ability to play Simon Says with unbridled enthusiasm.

    Come on, PONTI, serve me up another cookie-cutter rejoinder straight from the public trough. You're more predictable than death...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 1:05pm

  274. My thoughts of Cuba are based on my time touring the island and speaking with the natives.---Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/21/2007 @ 12:52

    WHICH "thoughts of Cuba"?....the ones back on Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2006 @ 2:07pm

    the ones from Posted by CHIMICHENGA 10/25/2007 @ 12:04am

    or the ones from ---Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/20/2007 @ 10:02pm?!!!??!?

    As far as telling you some details of my life....here's one thing about me--

    I DIDN'T work as a sales rep for Big Pharma, pushing their drugs on the unsuspecting, impoverished folks of Guatemala.

    So I don't have THAT karmic debt to pay off, do I?

    Posted by Mask at 12/21/2007 @ 2:19pm

  275. Posted by MASK 12/21/2007 @ 2:19pm | ignore this person

    Hey Dunderhead,

    You've posted and re-posted my remarks from months and years ago over and over as I noted above. How many times must you do this? When are you going to admit to being a quack and simply answer the questions I've put to you?

    As far as working for Big Pharma in Guate, well, this too is already available for public inspection on the web, unlike the sordid and secret details of your tedious existence.

    How old are you, anyway? I'm not denying or hiding from anything here. You only wish you could say the same. Divulging personal information about yourself in the context of my own adventurous life is just another indication of the hebetude that infects you.

    Where should I send the piece of coal I got you for Christmas?

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 2:28pm

  276. Posted by JOMAMMA 12/21/2007 @ 2:33pm | ignore this person

    Hey,

    I was just joshing you about being of the same stock as Generation X and Rx yesterday - you can understand how I'm accustomed to trying to relate to gringos who don't know squat about their torrid cellar. Glad to see someone knows their history...

    Posted by chimichenga at 12/21/2007 @ 2:39pm

  277. Where should I send the piece of coal I got you for Christmas?----Posted by CHIMICHENGA 12/21/2007 @ 2:28pm

    New Jersey. Live in a nice up-scale suburb, right next to some folks whose kid went off to college in the 90s...read "The Motorcycle Diaries" and thinks he's a "nativo"...

    shows up every few months with some handicrafts that he sells for beer money and rent. His mom and dad kind of roll their eyes and then say "It's just a phase. Frank's got him a job waiting down at the local newspaper when he gets down with this 'travel-blog' thing!" and then hand him a wad of extra cash out of his trust fund.

    Posted by Mask at 12/21/2007 @ 4:33pm

  278. Posted by MASK 12/21/2007 @ 4:33pm | ignore this person

    you live in your own world, one where you are a Dorothy parker like wit. I suggest you open the window to let some fresh air in.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/21/2007 @ 8:37pm

  279. You know nothing about business or running a business..the above line couldn't demonstrate that fact any better...

    Posted by JOMAMMA 12/20/2007 @ 9:39pm

    Eat me JM. You might be a stooge and yes man who is in awe of these folks, but I will never be.

    You won't believe this, but there have been times when those "CEO" types actually asked us engineers what we thought they should do. Why would this be? Maybe because we were the R&D who developed the very products that keep the company floating. Without our input and efforts, they wouldn't have jack. No product, no sales, no meetings, no money, no job for the CEO. No money for the stock holders etc.

    You put the cart ahead of the horse. Companies usually start from ideas, not from a board of directors or CEO's in meetings, unless of course they are purchasing another company for leverage which once again, takes brilliance to do.

    I've known too many engineers who had it up to their necks with watching corporate stooges profit off their efforts to go out and start their own companies. They do extremely well without Joe Suit wetting his beak off their labors.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 12/22/2007 @ 09:34am

  280. Posted by WOLFGANG1 12/22/2007 @ 09:34am | ignore this person

    nice Godfather 2 reference.

    Posted by Big Jake at 12/22/2007 @ 10:12am

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