Mike Huckabee's Religious-Test Campaign

posted by John Nichols on 11/28/2007 @ 12:53pm

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This is supposed to be Mike Huckabee's make-or-break night.

The former Arkansas governor has emerged as the potential "Jimmy Carter" of the 2008 presidential race – a virtual unknown from the south who, with little money and few national endorsements, uses a breakthrough win in the Iowa caucuses to go national. Huckabee is now statistically tied with the GOP frontrunner in Iowa, former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney.

A strong performance in tonight's CNN/YouTube Republican debate could give Huckabee, who must rely on free media to offset Romney's self-financed "money-is-no-object" campaign, the boost he needs to take the lead.

But with competitiveness should come scrutiny. And that is why tonight's debate must address the fundamental – or, perhaps, we should say fundamentalist -- question that has been raised by the rise of Huckabee.

Is the Arkansan's campaign intentionally stoking anti-Mormon bias in order to draw evangelical conservatives in Iowa and elsewhere away from Romney's bandwagon?

No serious observer of what's playing out in Iowa will disagree with the New York Times assessment that: "The religious divide over Mitt Romney's Mormon faith that his supporters had long feared would occur is emerging in Iowa as he is being challenged in state polls by Mike Huckabee, a former Baptist pastor who has played up his faith in his bid for the Republican presidential nomination. Mr. Huckabee's rise in Iowa -- some recent polls now put him in a dead heat with Mr. Romney, who had led surveys for months -- has been fueled by evangelical Christians, who believe Mormonism runs counter to Christian orthodoxy."

Huckabee backers in Iowa have been quoted as referring to Romney, a member of one of Mormonism's most prominent families, as a politician "who's going to be acting on an anti-Christian faith as the basis of their decision-making." The former Arkansas governor's Iowa campaign co-chair, veteran Republican activist Daniel Carroll, has been quoted as saying that Christians prefer Huckabee over Romney because Huckabee "prays to the God of the Bible.'

Mormon's do pray to the God of the Bible, by they add another book to the Old and New Testaments: The Book of Mormon. Evangelicals reject the Book of Mormon as false prophesy. And they mince few words with regard to Mormons. "Evangelicals who conclude Mormonism a cult do conclude that Mormons' prayers to God do not ‘get through' because they are not actually petitioning the God of the Bible but a deity of a cultic base," writes Maine pastor Joseph Grant Swank Jr., who writes frequently about what evangelicals refer to as "truth-in-conviction" matters.

In a pluralistic society, evangelicals have a right to their views, as do Mormons.

So what is the question for Huckabee? A simple one: Does he, as someone who seeks to be the president of the United States, respect and endorse Article VI, Section 3, of the Constitution, which states that: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States"?

If Huckabee were to be nominated for the presidency, he would on January 20, 2009, place his hand on a Bible and swear a solemn oath to "preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States."

That oath, necessarily, requires a rejection of precisely the sort of religious test that Huckabee backers are applying to Mitt Romney.

If Huckabee avows that he is indeed committed to the Constitution, and if he declares that he opposes the application of any religious test, then he must face a second question: Will the candidate Mike Huckabee and the Huckabee campaign make it absolutely clear that they want neither the support nor the votes of those who would oppose Mitt Romney's candidacy on the basis of religion?

Comments (70)

"No serious observer of what's playing out in Iowa will disagree with the New York Times assessment that: "The religious divide over Mitt Romney's Mormon faith that his supporters had long feared would occur is emerging in Iowa."

Mr Nichols, you need to read this blog more often...LVLIBERTY has come out fully against Romney, entirely based on his Mormon faith.

He's as much said, he'll stay home and let Hillary (or whoever) win, rather than "vote for a Temple Mormon whose allegiance isn't to the United States".

And ya gotta figure LVLIB isn't alone out there!

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 1:15pm
JOHN, as a matter of principle, serious intelligent observers of ANYTHING at least QUESTION any observations made by the New York Times.

Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 11/28/2007 @ 1:22pm
Or any other observations emanating from the corporately held disinformation sources that pass themselves off as media these days...

Posted by jorcheim at 11/28/2007 @ 1:54pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 2:16pm | ignore this person

Wow. What an excellent post for the argument of separation of church and state.

Posted by FritztheCat at 11/28/2007 @ 2:34pm
Does he, as someone who seeks to be the president of the United States, respect and endorse Article VI, Section 3, of the Constitution, which states that: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States"?

The brilliance of the authors of the constitution never cease to astound me.

Posted by FritztheCat at 11/28/2007 @ 2:36pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 2:16pm

Posted by MASK 11/28/2007 @ 1:15pm

See???

I actually think (LL correct me if I'm wrong)....that LVLIBERTY is more scared of Mitt Romney (a pretty mainstream, as governor; hardline con as candidate, Republican)...

than of Hillary, becoming our next President.

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 2:40pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 2:16pm

The very reason that religion as a practice is an archaic remnant primitive mysticism and has ZERO place in politics by design.

Does it have utility? Sure - it provides a moral compass to those who for whatever reason cannot tell right from wrong without divine instruction, and it can be invoked even by the scientifically minded at the "pre-Big-Bang" However, the very fact that they all claim to be the "right" religion, means with near certainty that they are all wrong.

Rio Koresh

Just wondering if you were gonna stop in and sing praises to Papa Pilgrim, and how his God-fearin' child-raping was interrupted by the lawless liberals of central Alaska.

Posted by leftofcenter at 11/28/2007 @ 2:46pm
ooops, my bad

archaic remnant OF primitive mysticism

Posted by leftofcenter at 11/28/2007 @ 2:48pm
LVLIBERTY1 : I will not disagree with your statements, even if I am a Mormon who thinks that Romney is full of crap.

My only question is: who gives a rip what his religion is?

I don't care if someone said they were a Wiccan while they were calculating my taxes. I couldn't care if my boss was a Jew, or a Muslim, or a Flying Spaghetti Monster Follower.

The Constitution says there is no religious test. Period. So if Romney and Huckabee want to whip out their religious credentials and measure them against each other, then I think that *both* have proven themselves unqualified for office.

All that should matter to voters isn't "Oh, this person is a member of a fringe religion", but "Will they represent my interests?" If you're a Catholic and feel that a Mormon president would represent your views on Abortion, well, good for you. If you're a Catholic and feel a Democrat would represent your views on helping your fellow man, well, good for you.

Get my point? I don't care if you think that Mormons are a bunch of frauds. But I do care when someone says "Well, I wouldn't vote for X because they're religion is Y". No, not even if I thought they belonged to a "cooky" religion. Only by their fruits - their actions - and would I know them.

Now, by Mr. Romney's actions, I certainly have no interest in voting for him - but that has nothing to do with his religion.

Posted by johnhummel at 11/28/2007 @ 2:49pm
Um... last I checked, all religions are cults.

Posted by jorcheim at 11/28/2007 @ 2:51pm
keith ellison for president!

heheh

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/28/2007 @ 3:35pm
He's as much said, he'll stay home and let Hillary (or whoever) win, rather than "vote for a Temple Mormon whose allegiance isn't to the United States".

And ya gotta figure LVLIB isn't alone out there!

Posted by MASK 11/28/2007 @ 1:15pm |

Then I say...

Go, Mitt! Go!

Posted by bjkron at 11/28/2007 @ 3:40pm
For any Christian to support someone like Romney is to join in denouncing their own faith. Romney the hypocrite seeks Evangelicals vote while secretly in his Temple worship lives a doctrine that says that anything you do to Christians is acceptable in God's sight because they are pagans.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 2:16pm

Isn't this how all fundamentalist Christians and Muslims view the pagans and infidels? Why should those of us who are non-Christian (or not the right kind of Christian) feel any more comfortable with a President Huckabee than a President Romney?

And how will either of these people be different from President GW Bush? As a non-Christian who has lived in Nebraska throughout W's term and has recently moved to Idaho (in a strongly Mormon part of Idaho, I might add), I do not feel comfortable expressing my spiritual views in public and around people that I do not know - despite the fact that the Christians and Mormons who surround me obviously do not have any such inhibitions. I have watched as the federal government has institutionalized purely Christian beliefs into code and practice.

I will not notice any difference between the fanatic Christian president we have now and a fanatic Mormon president except that I may feel less worried that a fanatic Mormon will start WWIII to hasten the return of his diety. Romney does not appear to be a fanatic Mormon anyways (whatever a fanatic Mormon may be).

Posted by bjkron at 11/28/2007 @ 3:58pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/28/2007 @ 3:35pm

That raises a fascinating thought experiment for LVLIBERTY, FZ.

Suppose HIS vote out there in Nevada was THE deciding vote in a hypothetical race. And, if he doesn't vote, he gets fined, even imprisoned....

so....the Dem is Keith Ellison, avowed Muslim; the Repub is Mitt Romney, avowed Mormon.

Who does LL vote for? Or does he do the time in the slammer, rather than elect a "heathen" or a "heretic"?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 4:01pm
Posted by BJKRON 11/28/2007 @ 3:58pm

Remember, BJKRON, this is a man who endorses the WHOLESALE BOMBING of Muslims to "win the war on terrorism"...and who endorsed NUCLEAR BOMBARDMENT of Chinese "pagans" to "save them from Mao" and grant a "victory" to Douglas MacArthur.

Yet he lives in dread of what a "Temple Mormon" would do to him!

(On the War on Terrorism)

BLOG | Posted 10/19/2007 @ 4:50pm Comments for "Moyers/Scahill Expose Blackwater"

Tell the military to take off their safety's, find some "Patton" style leaders; also, think Dresden; tell the president, his advisors, and the military staff to quit worrying about public opinion and just destroy every enemy-no prisoners.----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 10/21/2007 @ 10:50am

(On the Korean War)

BLOG | Posted 01/10/2007 @ 11:47am Comments for "Surge Homeward" by Katrina vanden Heuvel

3-5 nuclear weapons against China and a threat to Russia to keep in line or they would have been next would have given the world a much better opportunity for peace than we have seen as a result of not letting MacArthur achieve the victory that we should have.----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/10/2007 @ 4:32pm

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 4:04pm
FREIHEIT:

Anytime a group of people abdicate reason for a set of beliefs, and then refuse ardently to engage those beliefs with pure reason and rationality, that group is a cult, regardless of label or nomenclature.

Posted by jorcheim at 11/28/2007 @ 4:10pm
Posted by MASK 11/28/2007 @ 4:04pm

Thanks for the reminders, Mask!

Posted by bjkron at 11/28/2007 @ 4:19pm
LVLIBERTY1:

That's probably the single most cogent thing I have ever seen you post. And you wonder why progressives and liberals have such profound distaste for conservatives in this country.

Posted by jorcheim at 11/28/2007 @ 4:50pm
I find the premise of this article somewhat confusing. I will demonstrate with an analogy. Let's say that I knew that some car-buyers would be more likely to buy a car if it looked somewhat like a chicken, and I find this out after I've designed my car, and I notice that my car does somewhat resemble the lines of a chicken. (I don't know why that would affect anyone, but it will work well in my example.) Now that I've found this out, am I doing anything immoral or unethical to point out that my product looks like a chicken? I don't think so. Nor, I think is pointing out/talking up one's own belief systems in seeking election.

Posted by brantl at 11/28/2007 @ 5:00pm
Anytime a group of people abdicate reason for a set of beliefs, and then refuse ardently to engage those beliefs with pure reason and rationality, that group is a cult, regardless of label or nomenclature.

Posted by JORCHEIM 11/28/2007 @ 4:10pm

Pretty much rules out the atheists and many environmentalists. But, I guess that wouldn't fit into FREI's little theories of those he disagrees with.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 4:36pm

Ask Mary Cheney. She not only votes for them, she helps them get elected by serving for them.

I thought you believed in the Owners Manual, and it's prohibition on religious testing. But, once again you have shown your ability to pick and choose that which fits your preconceived notions.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:18pm
"So what is the question for Huckabee? A simple one: Does he, as someone who seeks to be the president of the United States, respect and endorse Article VI, Section 3, of the Constitution, which states that: "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States"?

The funny thing is that there is NO law that forbids me as an American with legal voting status to use as a "religious test" the religion of candidates to weigh in my decision as to who I vote for.....so.....whether anyone acknowledges it or not there IS a religious test as to whether a candidate can make it to office....it's called the democratic process. I can use what ever criteria I feel is important to me to consider when I caste my vote!

Todd

Posted by Oksportsguy at 11/28/2007 @ 5:23pm
Posted by LEFTOFCENTER 11/28/2007 @ 2:46pm

Buwhahaha.

Poor PAPA Pilgrim. All he wanted was Christs grace and some underage poon. Is it something in the Holy Water?

http://www.boston.com/globe/spotlight/abuse/

Louis Beres, chairman of the Christian Coalition of Oregon. 3 of his family members accuse him of molesting them when they were pre-teens. Editor and Publisher article. In August 06, Beres confessed.

John Allen Burt, Republican anti-abortion activist, convicted of sexually molesting a 15 year old girl at the home for troubled girls that he ran.

Ken Calvert, Congressman (R-Ca), champion of the Christian Coalition and its "family values." Sued as an alimony deadbeat by his ex-wife. Said "We can't forgive what occurred between the President and Lewinsky." In 1993 he was caught by police receiving oral sex from a prostitute and attempted to flee the scene.

Dan Crane, Republican Congressman, married, father of six. Received a 100% "Morality Rating" from Christian Voice. Had sex with a minor working as a congressional page.

Paul Crouch Televangelist, Former President of Trinity Broadcasting Network (TBN). Paid $425,000 in hush money in an attempt to cover up a gay affair.

Richard A. Dasen Sr., Republican benefactor of conservative Christian groups, convicted of sexual abuse of children, promotion of prostitution and several counts of solicitation, enough to add up to a sentence of 126 years in prison. Investigators estimated that he spent up to $5,000,000 on prostitutes

Matthew Glavin, president and CEO of the Southeastern Legal Foundation, big player in the Clinton Impeachment, and many anti-gay jihads, has been arrested multiple times for public indeceny, one time fondling the crotch of the officer who was arresting him.

Dr. W. David Hager Bush appointee, member of Focus on the Family's Physician Resource Council, player in movement to ban the morning-after-pill. Had an adulterous affair, before divorcing his wife he sexually abused her, including sodomizing her in her sleep

Mike Hintz, a First Assembly of God youth pastor, introduced by Bush on the campaign trail, and promoted his policies. Says he supports Bush's values. Two months later, this married father of four turned himself into police, charged with the sexual exploitation of a child.

Jeff Miller, (R-Cleveland), Senate Republican Caucus Chairman in Tennessee and the sponsor of Tennessee's Marriage Protection act, getting divorced (as of April 2005) because of an affair he was having with an office aid. Miller described the Tennessee Marriage Protection Act as a means of preserving the sanctity of marriage. He opposed an amendment, however, which stated that "Adultery is deemed to be a threat to the institution of marriage and contrary to public policy in Tennessee."

Sue Myrick, Congresswoman (R-NC), describes herself as a "devout Christian." Committed adultery with a married man.

George Roche III, carried on a 19 year affair with his son's wife, while serving as president of Hillsdale College, which "emphasizes the importance of the common moral truths that bind all Americans, while recognizing the importance of religion for the maintenance of a free society."

Beverly Russell, County Chairman of the Christian Coalition, sexually molested his step-daughter, Susan Smith, who later drowned her two children.

Ed Schrock, two-term republican congressman, with a 92% approval rating from the Christian Coalition. Cosponsor of the Federal Marriage Amendment, consistently opposed gay rights. Married, with wife and kids. Withdrew his candidacy for a third term after tapes of him soliciting for gay sex were circulated.

Jimmy Swaggart, televangelist, said during a sermon "I'm trying to find the correct name for it … this utter absolute, asinine, idiotic stupidity of men marrying men. … I've never seen a man in my life I wanted to marry. And I'm gonna be blunt and plain; if one ever looks at me like that, I'm gonna kill him and tell God he died." Had an affair with a prostitute.

Randall Terry, Right to Life activist, founder of Operation Rescue, involved in the Terri Schiavo protests. Once imprisoned for sending former President Bill Clinton an aborted fetus. His son Jamiel is gay; his daughter Tila had sex outside of marriage, became pregnant, had a miscarriage - she is no longer welcome in his home; his daughter Ebony had 2 children outside of wedlock and became Muslim. He has campaigned against infidelity and birth control, gays and unwed mothers. Terry himself was censured by his church after committing adultery.

Strom Thurmond, republican senator and racist, raped and impregnanted a 15-year old African American maid.

Robin Vanderwall, Republican strategist and Citadel Military College graduate, director of Faith & Family Alliance, (a Christian Coalition spin off), former student of Pat Robertson's Regent Universtity, member of Ralph Reed's inner circle who funneled money to from lobbiest Jack Abromoff to Reed [13], convicted in Virginia for soliticing sex from a 13-year-old-boy[14] and on four other counts of soliciting sex from boys and girls over the internet.

Gimme that olde tyme religion, gimme that olde tyme religion

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:35pm
Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 11/28/2007 @ 5:23pm

Almost PONTIFICUS like in its pretzel logic.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:37pm
Crabwalk,

Are you suggesting that only those with "religion" and/or republican are at times hypocritical?

Posted by Oksportsguy at 11/28/2007 @ 5:39pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 5:37pm

Intentional ignorance or just plain obtuseness?

Rev Phelps.

Abortion clinic bombings, shootings, protests with spitting.

Aryan Nation.

There is no official Christian teaching to curse others or attack them physically for having a different belief.

He that sacrificeth unto any god save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed. -- Exodus 22:20

"He that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him." -- Leviticus 24:16

"If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers; Namely, of the gods of the people which are round about you ... Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him: But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people. And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die." -- Dt.13:6-10

Exodus 22:18 Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live

"If a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you." -- Leviticus 20:14

So remember to pray that God will burn your enemies to death. "Let burning coals fall upon them: let them be cast into the fire; into deep pits, that they rise not up again." -- Psalm 140:10

Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:14

Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. -- Exodus 31:15

If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.-- Deuteronomy 22:13-22

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:49pm
Posted by OKSPORTSGUY 11/28/2007 @ 5:39pm

no.

But they do seem to be the biggest.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:50pm
Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 5:57pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 5:50pm

I achieved atheist status through reason. Same with my environmental concerns. How does that make it a cult, under JORCHs definition?

Or this one:

cult |k?lt| noun a system of religious veneration and devotion directed toward a particular figure or object :

• a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister :

Wouldn't an atheist cult be the very definition of an oxymoron?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:01pm
Liberalism could be a cult, as would conservatism.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:03pm
The punch is because you only included those groups you have problems with in your initial response.

Probably right, including liberalism, environmentalism and atheism...

Nice to see you expand your definition.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:07pm
Haha, you're on an Apple, aren't you?

Howd' you guess that? Spot on.

Like proving Saddam had no wmd's, it is not up to me to prove a negative. I see no proof of God before me, I see proof of no God.

The mosquito.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:11pm
Atheism is a religious cult based on faith in no supreme being.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 6:05pm

Twisting words for your benefit.

Can I KNOW absolutely? No, I cannot. But, using what I see and experience, I can come to a logical conclusion.

The cultist will say he KNOWS absolutely. Like Luvvy and Mitt.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:15pm
"Strom Thurmond, republican senator and racist, raped and impregnanted a 15-year old African American maid."

Posted by CRABWALK 11/28/2007 @ 5:35pm

Crab, this statement is a complete lie. There was no rape involved and the mother was 16, not 15.

Check out Dan Rather's 60 Minutes interview with Strom's daughter, Essie Mae back in December 2003 and she tells the story of how her parents met. BTW, Strom did provide for her and the Thurmond family has acknowledged her.

Posted by ACook at 11/28/2007 @ 6:17pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 6:13pm

no, it was because you were wrong, and chose those for a reason. Only when called out did you bother to include other examples.

An environmentalist attitude can be reached using reason. Look around, pay attention. Read science journals. Look at the Soviet disdain for the environment and it's results. Or Chinas. The look at the progress science has made in this country in regards to the environment.

It can also be a cult of sorts. But it does not automatically become one because you disagree with some of the actions those environmentalists wish to take.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:21pm
As for the Apple guess, it was the partial definition of cult you copied and pasted right out of the OS X Dictionary ;-)

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 6:20pm

excellent!

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 6:18pm

Expected response. But, last I checked, the Olde Test is still a part of modern Christianity and considered by many to be a guide.

Posted by ACOOK 11/28/2007 @ 6:17pm

ok, If she was 16, what the hell do you call a grown white man having sex with a 16 year old black servant in the 40's or 50's?

I call it rape.

He was so proud of himself that he kept it a secret his whole damn life.

Gotta run, din din is here.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/28/2007 @ 6:25pm
Another proper question for Huckabee would be: "Given that you believe Genesis delineates the creation of the universe and Earth, do you think canasta, bridge or pinochle was the game of choice when Adam and Eve socialized with Fred and Wilma Flinstone, and Barney and Betty Rubble?"

Posted by scurvybro at 11/28/2007 @ 6:27pm
ha ha! members of one intolerant old cult bitchin about a newer one!

hey...i thought huckleberry was kind of an economic populist...

dont you need to be a satano-aynrando economic nihilist to be a rightwing jesus freak these days?

wow...repugnant party...even at its best, so aptly named...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/28/2007 @ 6:35pm
Two points I want to make really quickly.

First...OK is just correct. Obviously, on a technical level, the Constitution is a limitation on the government's power, not on the ability of an individual voter to include particular things in their calculus of whom to vote for. More on point, though, it seems very strange that people who would vote without a second thought against a fundamentalist are saying that you shouldn't vote against someone because of their religion.

Second, on the cult issue, Crab just conceded:

An environmentalist attitude can be reached using reason. Look around, pay attention. Read science journals. Look at the Soviet disdain for the environment and it's results. Or Chinas. The look at the progress science has made in this country in regards to the environment.

It can also be a cult of sorts. But it does not automatically become one because you disagree with some of the actions those environmentalists wish to take.

Posted by CRABWALK 11/28/2007 @ 6:21pm

Here's why this amounts to a concession. What Crab just said was that a group isn't a cult if its views can be reached by a process of reason (apparently it doesn't have to be "pure" reason, which is nothing more than fiction). As a simple empirical matter, it's just true that people have come to Christianity (along with Judaism and Islam, and perhaps many others) through reason as well as faith, and I don't think that they've had to hideously distort all semblance of logic in order to do it (even if you think that their conclusions are ultimately incorrect). The mere fact that people can and have come to these religious conclusions by application of their reason demonstrates decisively by Crab's own standards that they are not cults. QED

Posted by Thrawn at 11/28/2007 @ 6:41pm
Posted by ACOOK 11/28/2007 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person

i think the age of consent was like 13 or something at the time, anyway...

i was never a big thurmond worshipper, but a suprising number of blacks voted for him.

he was a fascinating man, regardless, and man did he like the ladies...of all kinds...lol...

and he wasn't exactly an ugly young man when it happened, for that matter...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/28/2007 @ 6:54pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 6:18pm

If the old testament is so obsolete and irrelevant why hasn't it been removed from the bible yet?

There have been many revisions/translation over the past centuries...But, still it is the first section of your holy book. Not even an addendum in the back.

Besides, where do all these people get all this "gays are an abomination" crap from, if the old testament is meaningless to most christians?

Just wondering.

Posted by Malcontent at 11/28/2007 @ 7:13pm
Atheism is a religious cult based on faith in no supreme being.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 6:05pm

Theism is a faith, without evidence, in a deity. A-theism is is lack of said belief. This requires no faith.

Your contention is simply not rational. Atheism is simply a refusal to deny the obvious.

The fact that the word atheist exists in our, primarily xtian cultural lexicon lends it no special meaning. The word, (label, as were there no theists, atheists would go unnamed), simply denotes a lack of something. It does not imply any particular belief.

I examined the world around me, saw no evidence of any deities and moved on. Again, this requires no faith.

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 11/28/2007 @ 7:33pm
Posted by CRABWALK 11/28/2007 @ 6:25pm

Sorry Crabbie, but the legal age back in the 40s and 50s for consensual sex in the state of South Carolina was 14 for girls and 16 for boys. The law has since been invalidated.

Also, Strom never kept is biracial daughter a "secret". Just about everyone on capital hill and in SC knew. The only ones that made a big deal about his personal life as a young bachelor were the liberals, thinking they "had" something on him.

Posted by ACook at 11/28/2007 @ 8:09pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 5:37pm

LVLIB....didn't answer my hypothetical...

Do you sit out the election if, the Dem is a Muslim and the Repub is a Mormon?

Actually make it even more realistic, are you going to sit out the 2008 election REGARDLESS who the Dem is, if Romney is the GOP nominee?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 8:27pm
Atheism is a religious cult based on faith in no supreme being.-----Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 6:05pm

Yeah, FREI, curious as Eric was...

Is there no "middle ground" whereby a person simply doubts the contention of a "Supreme Being" that you don't consider a "religion"?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 8:28pm
FREIHEIT:

Where would you place me, considering I believe there is a God, and yet I refuse to let it cloud my judgment regarding observable phenomena?

Posted by jorcheim at 11/28/2007 @ 8:51pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 9:03pm

See, I think that's why the Dems are PRAYING that Romney wins the nomination, LL. Enough like you (and there will be) and Hillary (or another Dem) can WALK into the Oval Office and take 30 House seats and 10 Senate seats with her.

Your bigotry (and it is, LL, Mitt Romney is no more a "Christian basher" than any Christian dogma believer...it's just a version YOU don't like)...and the bigotry of others is your own un-doing!

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 10:04pm
Posted by MASK 11/28/2007 @ 10:04pm

yeah, like when hitler invaded russia and the russians welcomed the nazis as liberators - and got mowed down!

not that LL is a nazi, mind you...

you know who could play a good hitler in a hitler movie? johnny depp...he's at the perfect age with a little makeup...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/28/2007 @ 10:15pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/28/2007 @ 10:15pm

What's remarkable is, LL's fear of Mormons...sorry, "TEMPLE Mormons"...as strong as his fear of Muslims, drives him (and others) to a position that will cost them more than their false fears ever would.

You think Romney wouldn't appoint "John Roberts/Sam Alito" Justices?....Hillary won't. You think Romney won't try to keep funding from Plan B or from contraception centers? You think Romney won't use the FDA to try to block RU-486? Think he won't be for "no sep of Church and State", as Bush tried with "Faith-Based Initiatives"?

But fear of his RELIGION would keep them from voting for him...and allow the Democrats to win...and not just the WH, as I noted, by not showing up, they'll cost the GOP House and Senate seats.

He'd never admit it but it is nearly IDENTICAL to what worked against Al Smith (plus Coolidge prosperity) in 1928 with Catholicism. 35 years later, Kennedy ended it.

I wonder if it'll take 35 years for guys like LL to die out and a Mormon (likely a GOP'er) to finally get elected?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 10:29pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 10:23pm

FREI, is absence of food...a "cuisine"?

is absence of light...another form of "light"?

is non-belief in Santa Claus, a "religion" since it has a "faith" that a fat man with flying reindeer who gives out presents to a billion kids doesn't exist?

How can belief that something which is not provable, tangible, or demonstrable...be a "faith"?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 10:32pm
Correction-

"How can belief that something which is not provable, tangible, or demonstrable doesn't exist...be a "faith"?

Posted by Mask at 11/28/2007 @ 10:32pm
I am responsible only for my own faith. That should keep me too busy to judge anyone else's.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 10:23pm

keeps me busy.

*i try to help my son out a little, but he gets to decide.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/29/2007 @ 12:41am
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/28/2007 @ 6:18pm

If that's your argument, then you should have no angst with man on man action, then, right?

The prohibition against such relations derives from Leviticus; Paul, the original corruptor of Christ, simply brought his personal biases into the Epistles, later codified by the Council of Nicea.

Be careful what you wish for, chum, for you will surely get it.

Posted by skeletonman at 11/29/2007 @ 08:20am
"First...OK is just correct. Obviously, on a technical level, the Constitution is a limitation on the government's power, not on the ability of an individual voter to include particular things in their calculus of whom to vote for. More on point, though, it seems very strange that people who would vote without a second thought against a fundamentalist are saying that you shouldn't vote against someone because of their religion."

Wow....a "liberal" actually agreed with me.

That's a first.

Todd

Posted by Oksportsguy at 11/29/2007 @ 09:08am
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/28/2007 @ 10:44pm

FREI, is it a "faith" to believe that there is not a giant 300 foot purple carrot monster sitting on top of the Empire State Building in NYC?

I'm not in New York at present and doubt you are...but until we both turn on CNN to check....if I (or you) don't believe that 300 Ft Purple Carrot Godzilla is crushing that skyscraper...

is it a "faith" to NOT believe it is happening?

We can't PROVE that the monstrous escapee from Veggie Tales isn't there in downtown Manhatten...can we?

Posted by Mask at 11/29/2007 @ 09:35am
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 10:27am

FREI, are you just ...surrendering?...heheh

Again, your point is that NOT believing in something is also a "religion" or "faith"...and I pointed out that that theory falls apart. Absence of "something" doesn't equate to "something else".

Vacuum isn't "another form of matter"...it's vacuum. To NOT believe in an "invisible Supreme Being that cannot be measured, quantified, or demonstrated" (or even DEFINED specifically)....is not a "faith".

It is acceptance of first principles of observation and reality.

The onus isn't on the non-believers to prove non-existance...but on believers to prove existance.

Posted by Mask at 11/29/2007 @ 10:57am
Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 10:27am

BTW, Lewis was flawed in his logic ("the Trilemma"). There was a fourth alternative to "lunatic, liar, or Lord"...."misquoted".

Posted by Mask at 11/29/2007 @ 11:02am
ACOOK -

Your defense of Thurmond is pathetic. Here is a hypocrite who actively worked for segregation while using his position of power at home to take advantage of young woman in his employ in his home; who is to say how long prior to being impregnated his advances began?

I suppose the modern day equivalent would be a conservative elected official who works against gay rights by day, then goes toe tapping in...shit, there's one of those already exposed...maybe a 'preacher' who rails against gay marriage, then gets busted doing drugs with his hired...damn!!! one of those, too, or maybe another elected official who sits on a committee charged with protecting children from paederasts who hits on boys in chat... fuckin' a ditty bag !!!

Posted by skeletonman at 11/29/2007 @ 11:06am
This whole thread is an example of the logic twisting abilities of Man, mostly of the neo-cons though.

FREI says the absence of religion is religion. The inability to prove nothing is there requires faith. As MASK points out, I cannot prove there are no invisible phantasms floating around my head, therefore FREI says I have to have faith to believe that. My senses and the fact that I can swing a dead cat in the room without hitting a phantasm means I have to have faith?

ACOOK says that a white male adult having sex with a teenage black female employee is totally consensual and OK with her. But, I am sure she felt Billy Clinton used his offices to pressure women into sex. (If I am wrong I will take that back).

Of course, these same people are still claiming Saddam was a threat, regardless of all the evidence pointing otherwise. Faith?

Can an 'ism be a cult?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/29/2007 @ 11:50am
Are Cubs fans a "cult".

Todd?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/29/2007 @ 11:53am
Thurmond was 22, the girl was 16 when the baby was born. The girls mother was Thurmonds maid. The baby did not meet Thurmond till she was 16.

WIKI:Washington-Williams has stated that she did not reveal she was Thurmond's daughter during his lifetime because it "wasn't to the advantage of either one of us"

That does not sound to me like it was "common knowledge".

Or is this like Valerie Plame, were one person says it was "well known" and all the cons pick up on it, even though only a handful of people knew?

Is this true?

Because of Thurmond's womanizing, fellow Senator John Tower (R-TX) made a private, but famous, remark: "When he dies, they'll have to beat his pecker down with a baseball bat in order to close the coffin lid".

Posted by crabwalk at 11/29/2007 @ 12:06pm
"Are Cubs fans a "cult"."

I'm not sure why you addressed this question specifically to me…..unless you are being myopic and stereotyping me in with other Christians who publicly call and claim that Mormonism is a "cult".

Can you pull up any of my posts where you can quote me referring to the Mormons as cultists?

Todd

Posted by Oksportsguy at 11/29/2007 @ 12:08pm
so, ¿where does sect end and cult begin?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/29/2007 @ 12:23pm
I don't believe either existance or non-existance can be proven on earth, nor is "proof" even the point.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 1:40pm

nope.

just sit back, relax and be nice (in god's name if you so choose)

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/29/2007 @ 1:56pm
:-) Ah, yes, nevermind. I did refer to atheism as a "religious cult". My error. It is a cult by definition, faith based in my opinion, but not a religion.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 1:33pm

Just wanted to point out that I am a member of many other cults too.

I belong to the "no such thing as unicorns" cult.

I am a cerified member of TAR (Trolls Are Liars).

I am also descended from a long line of "voodoo is bullshit" cult members.

I was also baptized in the "anti- tooth fairy" cult.

How much faith did you have to muster, to stop believing in the tooth fairy? Almost killed me. I had to attend a "teeth have no cash value" retreat and spend time listening to others tell me what to think. Then I fasted...and the voices assured me that neither they or the godless tooth fairy exsisted.

I shall continue to not believe that for which I see no evidence, provided I can keep the faith in that which I cannot see, hear, taste, smell or see a shred of evidence for.

Your beliefs are your own. But lack thereof is not a belief. You have consistantly been one of the saner rightys here, but your contention, this time, is thoughtless and silly as my post.

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 11/29/2007 @ 2:37pm
"...it won't be the first time we've disagreed."

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 3:05pm

I agree that it is a waste of time. And it is certainly not the first time we've disagreed.

But, it is the first time we have disagreed, not on a matter of opinion or policy, but on a matter of logic.

I only bothered posting to you, because you have always come off as reasonable and intelligent. Opinions are abundant, logic is immutable. Your opinions are respected. This time, though, your logic is flawed.

Either way, I would be curious as to how god is not comparable to santa claus.

And yes, there have been radio waves ever since there has been decaying matter in the universe.

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 11/29/2007 @ 6:24pm
has little to do with faith, God or a meaningful life, in my opinion.

Posted by FREIHEIT 11/29/2007 @ 2:23pm

oh no,

it has very much to do with it.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/29/2007 @ 10:54pm
Mike Huckabee was regarded by fellow Republican governors as a compulsive tax increaser and spender. He increased the Arkansas tax burden by 47 percent, boosting the levies on gasoline and cigarettes The Arkansas Leader.com editorialized that Mike Huckabee raised more taxes in 10 years in office than Bill Clinton did in his 12 years.

Posted by Bot at 12/02/2007 @ 06:02am
The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is often accused by Evangelical pastors of not believing in Christ and, therefore, not being a Christian religion. This article http://mormonsarechristian.blogspot.com/ helps to clarify such misconceptions by examining early Christianity's comprehension of baptism, the Godhead, the deity of Jesus Christ and His Atonement.

The Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) adheres more closely to First Century Christianity and the New Testament than any other denomination. Harper's Bible Dictionary entry on the Trinity says "the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the New Testament."

Perhaps the reason the pastors denigrate the Church of Jesus Christ (LDS) is to protect their flock (and their livelihood).

Posted by Bot at 12/02/2007 @ 06:05am
Mike Huckabee is no Conservative - is that why The Nation likes him?

The Arkansas Ethics Commission held proceedings 20 times on the former governor. During his tenure, Huckabee accepted 314 gifts valued overall at more than $150,000, according to documents filed with the Arkansas secretary of state's office. (He accepted 187 gifts in his first three years as governor but was not required to report their value.)

Two months after taking office, Huckabee stunned the state by saying he questioned rapist Wayne DuMond's guilt and that it was his intention to free the rapist, DuMond murdered a women in Illinois after Huckabee set him free

Huckabee battled conservatives within his own party who were pushing for stricter state-level immigration measures, such as:. - proof of legal status when applying for state services that aren't federally mandated - proof of citizenship when registering to vote - Huckabee failed in his effort to make children of illegal immigrants eligible for state-funded scholarships and in-state tuition to Arkansas colleges. Mike fails on so many levels as a true conservative.

Posted by Bot at 12/02/2007 @ 6:02pm
All right; I'm grouping your three posts into two separate issues: religion and conservatism.

First, the religion issue. I only want to tackle some of the central stuff here. One, the idea of the Trinity was pretty early, see "the Father and I are one." This simultaneous distinctness and identity is part of the paradox involved. Two, nowhere in the New or Old Testaments is it mentioned or even alluded to that human beings have any potential whatsoever to actually become divine.

On the conservatism issue, also two responses. First, I would be curious to know where many of the statistics for Huckabee actually came from here, as would I want to know the context in which any tax increases occurred. Contrary to what seems to be developing as a popular opinion, being a conservative need not mean that all tax increases are evil; it only means that you do them when you need to and not otherwise (with a reasonably narrow understanding of when you need to). Two, the thing against illegal immigrants is juts dumb. Look, the reason why people argue that we shouldn't give illegal immigrants government benefits of various kinds is that they made a decision to break the law and are here because of that decision. Even if you try to spin it as "don't give them an advantage over hard-working citizens," it still comes back to the idea that in some way you're punishing or at least refusing to give benefits to them based on the actions they took. That rationale, as Huckabee has correctly pointed out, cannot possibly be applied to children.

Posted by Thrawn at 12/03/2007 @ 08:19am