Scott McClellan = John Dean?

posted by John Nichols on 11/21/2007 @ 12:33pm

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Scott McClellan's admission that he unintentionally made false statements denying the involvement of Karl Rove and Scooter Libby in the Bush-Cheney administration's plot to discredit former Ambassador Joe Wilson, along with his revelation that Vice President Cheney and President Bush were among those who provided him with the misinformation, sets the former White House press secretary as John Dean to George Bush's Richard Nixon.

It was Dean willingness to reveal the details of what described as "a cancer" on the Nixon presidency that served as a critical turning point in the struggle by a previous Congress to hold the 37th president to account.

Now, McClellan has offered what any honest observer must recognize as the stuff of a similarly significant breakthrough.

The only question is whether the current Congress is up to the task of holding the 43rd president to account.

What McClellan has revealed, in a section from an upcoming book on his tenure in the Bush-Cheney White House, is a stunning indictment of the president and the vice president. The former press secretary is confirming that Bush and Cheney not only knew that Rove, the administration's political czar, and Libby, who served as Cheney's top aide, were involved in the scheme to attack Wilson's credibility -- by outing the former ambassador's wife, Valerie Plame, as a Central Intelligence Agency analyst -- but that the president and vice president actively engaged in efforts to prevent the truth from coming out.

"The most powerful leader in the world had called upon me to speak on his behalf and help restore credibility he lost amid the failure to find weapons of mass destruction in Iraq. So I stood at the White house briefing room podium in front of the glare of the klieg lights for the better part of two weeks and publicly exonerated two of the senior-most aides in the White House: Karl Rove and Scooter Libby," writes McClellan in an excerpt from his book, What Happened, which is to be published next April by Public Affairs.

"There was one problem," the long-time Bush aide continues. "It was not true. I had unknowingly passed along false information. And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration "were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President's chief of staff, and the president himself."

Much has been made about the fact that outing Plame as a CIA operative was a felony, since knowingly revealing the identity of an intelligence asset is illegal. And much will be made about the fact that McClellan's statement links Bush and Cheney to the cover-up of illegal activities and the obstruction of justice, acts that are themselves felonies.

But it is important to recognize that a bigger issue is at stake. If the president and vice president knowingly participated in a scheme to attack a critic of their administration -- Wilson had revealed that the White House had been informed that arguments Bush and Cheney used for attacking Iraq were ungrounded -- they have committed a distinct sort of offense that the House Judiciary Committee has already determined to be grounds for impeachment.

In the summer of 1974, Democrats and Republicans on the committee voted overwhelmingly to recommend the impeachment of President Richard Nixon for having "repeatedly engaged in conduct violating the constitutional rights of citizens, impairing the due and proper administration of justice and the conduct of lawful inquiries, or contravening the laws governing agencies of the executive branch and the purposed of these agencies."

That second article of impeachment against Nixon detailed the president's involvement in schemes to use the power of his position to attack political critics and then to cover up for those attacks.

The current chairman of the Judiciary Committee, Michigan Democrat John Conyers, voted for the impeachment of Nixon on those grounds.

Conyers and his colleagues need to recognize that, despite House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's aversion to presidential accountability, McClellan's statement demands the sort of inquiry and action that Dean's statements regarding Nixon demanded three decades ago.

As former Common Cause President Chellie Pingree notes with regard to Bush, "The president promised, way back in 2003, that anyone in his administration who took part in the leak of Plame's name would be fired. He neglected to mention that, according to McClellan, he was one of those people. And needless to say, he didn't fire himself. Instead, he fired no one, stonewalled the press and the federal prosecutor in charge of the case, and lied through his teeth."

Pingree, a savvy government watchdog who is bidding for an open House seat representing her native Maine, argues that the Judiciary Committee must subpoena McClellan as part of a renewed investigation of the Wilson case.

She is right about that.

She is right, as well, when she concludes that, if what McClellan says is true "it will call into question the legitimacy of the entire administration. And we may see a changing of the guard at the White House sooner than expected."

That changing of the guard -- via the Constitutional process of impeachment and trial for their various and sundry high crimes and misdemeanor -- is long overdue.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

John Nichols is the author of THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"

Comments (184)

It's too bad Madam Speaker has preempted the Constitution by taking impeachment off the table. Was she just not considering another shoe might drop when she made that statement, or was it that the already admitted and circumstantial high crimes and misdemeanors committed by this rogue regime were going to get a free pass no matter what?

Posted by seattlescribe at 11/21/2007 @ 04:12am
Nancy and Hillary are the dynamic duo enablers of GWB.

Posted by seattlescribe at 11/21/2007 @ 04:16am
As regards the Krongard issue:

Buzzy Krongard's foreknowledge of 9/11 makes him culpable in 9/11. When you know of a pending mass murder, and not only take no action to stop it, but take action to profit from it, you are no less guilty than the man who was running the entire operation that day, Dick Cheney.

When you are assigned to follow the money trail to determine who it was that placed those orders for put options, obviously implying foreknowledge, and you never file the results of your investigation (see Chertoff and Operation Greenquest), you are no less responsible for the deaths of those who perished on 9/11 than the man who directed the action on 9/11, as testified to by Norm Mineta, Dick Cheney.

Arrest all of these war criminals for high treason. What can you tell us about the Krongards, Scottie?

Posted by plunger at 11/21/2007 @ 05:10am
PLAME LEAK:

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/10/20031007-4.html

Office of the Press Secretary October 7, 2003

NOTE THREE MONTHS AFTER THE STORY FIRST BROKE:

Q Scott, in October of 2001, the President hit the roof over a classified leak of information from Congress. Yet, on this particular leak that you're dealing with now, he was silent from the 14th of July until 10 days ago. Why did he choose to hit the roof over one leak of classified information, but say nothing about another?

MR. McCLELLAN: We spoke about this the other day, and I'll be glad to go back through it. One, when this report was published, there was -- well, keep in mind, first, that there's a process in place for reporting the leaking of classified information, and that process worked in this instance.

HE ACKNOWLEDGES THE INFORMATION WAS CLASSIFIED.

Q Well, it was followed in the last instance, too, but he saw fit to hit the roof about it, to shrink the circle of people who were -- had access to classified information. And in this particular case, the leak of the CIA agent's name, equally as sensitive information as was leaked out of the Senate Intelligence Committee in October, the President says nothing about it.

THEY ACKNOWLEDGE THIS INFORMATION LEAK IS "EQUALLY SENSITIVE."

Posted by plunger at 11/21/2007 @ 05:13am
NOW can we impeach this scum???

Posted by skeletonman at 11/21/2007 @ 06:06am
Hi Plunger

Glad your back

How long will the Spineless Congress allow these traitors to make America more threatened?

When will Pelosi act on Impeachment of Cheney and Bush?

Posted by RESE 11/21/2007 @ 05:38am | ignore this person

Pelosi is being both bribed and blackmailed. She is in the employ of David Rockefeller and the handful of New York Banksters that literally OWN the IRS and the Federal Reserve Bank, which is neither Federal, nor does it hold any "reserves."

The implosion of Freddie and Fannie's stock price yesterday signals the end of the illusion. They are effectively the economy, and insolvent.

Wild cornered animals can be counted on to lash out.

The Krongard Brothers know EVERYTHING, and need to be placed under arrest for treason, along with Ari Fleischer, Dick Cheney, George HW Bush and the rest of the 9/11 co-conspirators.

Posted by plunger at 11/21/2007 @ 06:31am
ITMF already!

Does he have to get caught in some kids pants before the dems actually start applying the law?

According to Abe Lincoln, via JOMAMA, Chimpy is a TRAITOR!! He has aided and abetted known enemies of the United States by telling our enemies who our agents are and who they worked with.

Lets read the apologists spin now...

how are they going to spin this one

"It was not true. I had unknowingly passed along false information. And five of the highest ranking officials in the administration "were involved in my doing so: Rove, Libby, the vice President, the President's chief of staff, and the president himself."

and the sheep believed. Because we "have to trust the president". sheep traitors.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 07:37am
NOW can we impeach this scum???

Posted by SKELETONMAN 11/21/2007 @ 06:06am

Nah, it's off the table. Nancy Pelosi doesn't want to ruffle W and Cheney's feathers. She's made too many demands on them as it is and had too many victories in Congress, and of course our brave senators will follow Nancy's lead.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 07:40am
Patriots!!!

When your elected officials return form "recess", get on the phones, get on the fax machine. Tell your reps and senators that they need to get off their butts and start hearings on Bush's illegal activities. Thats all it will take. When hearings start bringing this stuff out of the woodwork, all but the most ideological (you know who you are,P, J, L, R) will see and know. 55% say if the pres can be shown to have broken the law he should be impeached. When it is on the telly day in and day out, that number will climb rapidly.

Call. Fax. Call again. Run their fax machines out of paper!!!!

Chimpy is a crook.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 07:46am
and the sheep believed. Because we "have to trust the president". sheep traitors.

Posted by CRABWALK 11/21/2007 @ 07:37am

Crab,

Notice that senator Craig is still occupying his seat in the senate. Evidently enough idiots bought into his wide stance arguement.

Clinton gets a b.j. and lies before congress about getting said b.j. and then was put through the impeachment process via perjury charges. Then, our ever popular ex-attorney general Gonzo goes before congress and lies out his teeth and absolutely zero charges were levelled against him. Scooter libby was convicted of obstructing justice, and got a kitchen pass from non other than our liar in chief.

So, if something actually happens with this McLellan deal, they'll go after Rove or someone else lower on the chain of command. Bush will of course pardon anyone found guilty, and by the time they get to Bush or Cheney, Bush will be out of office and all will be forgotten.

Evidently, if you are president or vice president, you can break any law you choose, and if your time in office runs out before you are actually found guilty of the crime, I guess another executive privelege kicks in and no crime you commit while president can be held against you. I guess executive privelege is actually kingship privelege. Who knew.

What a F^&ked up system we have.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 07:51am
It would not hurt to call news outlets and tell them you want coverage of this breaking story. Local and national.

work those Razors people!!

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 08:02am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 11/21/2007 @ 07:51am

While that is a sad state of affairs, the worst part is the sheep go along with him, covering for him, making up lame excuses, illogical defenses, at the same time calling us cowards and traitors for wanting our president to obey laws and not out covert agents whose job it is to protect these same sheep from harm.

It's sick and twisted! they should be ashamed, but they have no shame.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 08:06am
I thought Armitage leaked the name of Plame. I thought nobody was charged with leaking a covert agent's name because no crime was committed. This is McClellan' BOOK PUBLISHER's media campaign to SELL BOOKS! This is a dead issue. Let's move on.

Posted by abell12ct at 11/21/2007 @ 08:15am
It's sick and twisted! they should be ashamed, but they have no shame.

Posted by CRABWALK 11/21/2007 @ 08:06am

Sir Crab,

It's kind of like the words to one of the Eagles' new songs. The lyrics are something like, "God is an American......he presides over football games....."

The scary thing is that about 2/3 of the people backing Bush really think this way. No doubt they believe Jesus would have spoken English, sorry American.

I have pretty much lost faith in the people of this country to reason for themselves. They buy into this phony b.s. shoved down our throats on television as news and are more concerned about what Brittany Spears is doing than losing their jobs and possibly their country.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 08:17am
Technically Crab, I think a President can out a CIA agent.

Posted by abell12ct at 11/21/2007 @ 08:19am
A RESE/PLUNGER spam-fest.

Pretty mich says it all on the "groundbreaking" implications, Mr Nichols!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 08:20am
Technically Crab, I think a President can out a CIA agent.

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 08:19am

Technically, not he can't. A president or vice president has to declassify that agent before even he can do that. There was a rush to declassify Plame by the Bush administration after the fact that they had leaked her name, not before. They were trying to cover their asses.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 08:21am
Thanks for the clarification Wolfgang. But wasn't there something about her not serving overseas in 5 years that automatically made her non covert?

Posted by abell12ct at 11/21/2007 @ 08:23am
i don't know, MASK. mclellan just admitted to knowing criminal activities by the administration.

problem is...

a) the media - where is it? therefore...

b) john/jane q. scmuk public...watchin' survivor and entertainment news knows nada...

still, this is not "nothing".

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2007 @ 08:25am
Thanks for the clarification Wolfgang. But wasn't there something about her not serving overseas in 5 years that automatically made her non covert?

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 08:23am

That I don't know about, but they wouldn't have been in a big rush to declassify her if that had been the case. My guess is that the Bush administration flies by the seat of it's pants without thinking most of the time, and they get their attorneys to cover up their screw-ups, kind of like the erased White House email situation. But, in this case, when it truly is a national security issue, there's a paper trail that even they can't hide.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 08:35am
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 08:38am

Thanks Frank. It would appear that Dean believes Fitzgerald is or has already looked into this. Congress should definitely look into this, but knowing Pelosi's history, the house won't look into it so it would be up to the senate to do something about it.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 08:59am
IBBLE...this was John Nichols almost a year ago--

"BLOG | Posted 01/25/2007 @ 12:52pm Edging Impeachment Back Onto the Table

The news from former vice presidential chief of staff "Scooter" Libby's trial on charges of obstructing a federal investigation -- particularly the revelation that Vice President Dick Cheney wrote a memo that effectively confirms his intimate involvement in strategizing about how to counter the inquiry into the Bush administration's politically-motivated outing of CIA operative Valarie Plame -- should slowly but surely edge the prospect of impeachment back onto the table from which Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi removed it."

How many times do we read "The Boy Who Cried Imminent Impeachment" Aesop fable????

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 09:19am
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 08:38am

BTW, good news on the Hillary endorsement front, FRANK...

I heard that O.J. is backing her!

heheh

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 09:21am
Notice also how the news was released over the Thanksgiving holiday.

Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 08:34am

yep. lions -- packers 12:30 thursday.

isn't valerie plame the chick who does weather on the fox sports pre-game show?

Posted by OVOIDHEAD 11/21/2007 @ 08:59am | ignore this person

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2007 @ 09:22am
so it would be up to the senate to do something about it.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 11/21/2007 @ 08:59am

ay, there's the rub;

For in that sleep of death what dreams may come

When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,

Must give us pause: there's the respect

That makes calamity of so long life;

For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,

The oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,

The pangs of despised love, the law's delay,

The insolence of office and the spurns

That patient merit of the unworthy takes,

not enough votes

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2007 @ 09:29am
not enough votes

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/21/2007 @ 09:29am

And so much for the rule of law.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 09:37am
And so much for the rule of law.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 11/21/2007 @ 09:37am

alas............

BASSANIO So may the outward shows be least themselves:

The world is still deceived with ornament.

In law, what plea so tainted and corrupt,

But, being seasoned with a gracious voice,

Obscures the show of evil?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2007 @ 10:02am
You hear this, current Bush spokeswoman Dana Perino?

You will go down in history - hated, despised, reviled.

Your thirty pieces of silver is only going to buy you some dirt on which to spill your guts.

McClellan - your apology means nothing. What you did is un-forgivable.

Posted by conshame at 11/21/2007 @ 10:13am
Even if impeachment were put back "on the table," as pointed out by FZ, there aren't enough votes to carry it through. Besides, I can't see any of the Dem nominees doing anything about it as this issue will surely still be around when the next President takes the White House. Like Ford, the next President will pardon GW, and the rest of his gang, in the interest of reaching across party lines to form a unified government. "We're not looking backward but looking forward to a bright future" will be their reply.

I hope I'm wrong but I've become too pessimistic about our government to think otherwise.

Posted by FritztheCat at 11/21/2007 @ 10:14am
er...like Ford did for Nixon.

Posted by FritztheCat at 11/21/2007 @ 10:15am
Check this out. This is the group of people we have running our country right now. These people are out of their friggin minds.

How the Neocon-Christian Right Alliance Brought Down the House of Bush By Amy Goodman, Democracy Now!. Posted November 21, 2007.

Here's the link to the article. http://www.alternet.org/waroniraq/68540/?page=1

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 10:23am
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 09:19am |

yeah...the impeachment that should have been...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/21/2007 @ 10:23am
The Democrats could, short of impeachment, short of taking action, short of ending the war - do something over the top. Call George Bush a liar, a traitor, a slaughterer of Americans. It is the groundwork, it is building a foundation. Trigger calls for an apology from the reactionary media, laden with references to MoveOn.Org - and then don't apologize.

Posted by conshame at 11/21/2007 @ 10:28am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/21/2007 @ 10:23am

Impeachment was (as I said on another thread) "mostly dead" like Wesley from "Princess Bride" back when Mr Nichols wrote his January 25th article....Pelosi had already signalled that with "off the table".

But it is as the Munchkin Coroner said "not only merely dead, it's really, most sincerely dead."

No time left. They go on Thanksgiving break...back for 2 weeks in December...then Christmas break until first weekend of January....and by then, we're in Primary Fever and every guy and gal in Congress is trying to get their picture taken with The Nominee for their own re-election bid.

And unless a Miracle of Miracle occurs and Kucinich wins the nomination....that Dem nominee won't be wanting to discuss impeachment, instead of his/HER "health care plan", "education plan", "energy plan", etc.

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 11:00am
WOLFGANG1 - The committee, or which HC was a member, appointed to investigate the possibility of impeaching Nixon didn't want him impeached. They wanted him to stay in office. By doing so, the gradual revelations of his criminal activities would, they thought, end up smearing the entire Repub party and guarantee a Dem sweep in the next election.

Pelosi may be using the tactic. I wonder if she'll stick to it when the rumor of another Bush war, this time Iran, looks like it might be more than just a rumor. As a consumate pol, she probably will. Nothing is sacred when it comes to keeping your ass in a place of power.

Posted by felicity at 11/21/2007 @ 11:19am
The only problem with your comparison is that nobody gives a shit. I had to read about this first in the British press. Nowhere to be found in MSM here. Dems don't care. (really they don't). Crimes have been committed here, no? Action should have been taken long ago, (impeachment). Everyone is looking the other way. I know it's not fashionable to say this but I'm sitting this one out. Who could I possibly vote for in '08?

Posted by jazzis4u at 11/21/2007 @ 11:28am
Posted by FELICITY 11/21/2007 @ 11:19am

I believe you are correct. They are playing politics with their job of upholding the constitution of the United States. So, rather than doing their jobs, they wish to ride the wave, get reelected and let the whole storm blow over. But as you pointed out, Bush still has a year to start a war with Iran or worse.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 11:28am
Who could I possibly vote for in '08?

Posted by JAZZIS4U 11/21/2007 @ 11:28am

Well, Kucinich has been trying to put forth the impeachment process several times and he is running, but as Mask keeps pointing out, it will be a cold day in hell before he gets the democratic nomination for president.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 11:32am
Snarflle snarffle....McClellan just trying to sell books. Georgie is as clean as a whistle....trust me on this folks and pass me that bucket of vicodin.

Posted by rushlimb at 11/21/2007 @ 11:36am
Does this McClellan book suggest that McClellan committed perjury in his grand jury testimony?

Posted by rushlimb at 11/21/2007 @ 11:38am
Does this McClellan book suggest that McClellan committed perjury in his grand jury testimony?

Posted by RUSHLIMB 11/21/2007 @ 11:38am

From what I read, McClellan claims he didn't know at the time that it was a lie. So evidently he found out the truth after the fact. He sure wouldn't be too smart if he intentionally lied to the public and then turned around and wrote a book about it.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 11:41am
Wolf,

How is he going to find out he was lied to AFTER he leaves the WH when he's legally got the same access to info that you and I have. Wasn't his GJ testimony given after he left the WH?

In other words, it's a total contortion act to say. I didn't know I was being lied to when I was WH press sec. I then left the WH and still didn't know. I then gave testimony to the GJ and still didn't know but now i do know!!!

Posted by rushlimb at 11/21/2007 @ 12:03pm
Yes, treason is as serious as it gets. And impeachment is the remedy. Yet not only Pelosi, but HRC, BO & Edwards have all already given W&Co a pass on impeachment. More damning evidence may come out, but to no avail, as any GOP successor or one of the above Dems will indeed pardon all the traitors for "the sake of national unity," which is to say, for the sake of their careers, fortunes & possibly their lives as well. Any Dem president, that is, except the courageous Dennis Kucinich.

Posted by sloper at 11/21/2007 @ 12:04pm
Unless we're missing something, Joe Wilson has disproved his own accusation that someone in the Bush administration violated the Intelligence Identities Protection Act, USA Today reports: The alleged crime at the heart of a controversy that has consumed official Washington--the "outing" of a CIA officer--may not have been a crime at all under federal law, little-noticed details in a book by the agent's husband suggest. In The Politics of Truth, former ambassador Joseph Wilson writes that he and his future wife both returned from overseas assignments in June 1997. Neither spouse, a reading of the book indicates, was again stationed overseas. They appear to have remained in Washington, D.C., where they married and became parents of twins.

This meant that Plame would have been stationed in the U.S. for six years before Bob Novak published his column citing her two years ago today. As USA Today notes: The column's date is important because the law against unmasking the identities of U.S. spies says a "covert agent" must have been on an overseas assignment "within the last five years." The assignment also must be long-term, not a short trip or temporary post, two experts on the law say.

Posted by abell12ct at 11/21/2007 @ 12:08pm
More generally, I wonder when Mr Nichols will finally ...give it up?

If he's not HSUB nuts, he's GOT to realize that some "deadline" has to exist, beyond which impeachment is not only politically, but logistically impossible. And he stops bringing up these interminable "It's just around the corner, folks!!!" articles.

Unless...it really is about selling the book!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 12:09pm
In other words, it's a total contortion act to say. I didn't know I was being lied to when I was WH press sec. I then left the WH and still didn't know. I then gave testimony to the GJ and still didn't know but now i do know!!!

Posted by RUSHLIMB 11/21/2007 @ 12:03pm

Good questions. I'm sure they'll be asking him that as well.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 12:26pm
WOLFGANG1 - The illustrious 'committee' investigating Nixon/impeachment managed to come up with a ruling that is now precedent, namely, a president can be, and now is, shielded from impeachment for acts of subordinates. The fact that McClellan says, actually implies that Bush gave the order could be a sticky-wicket for Bush. The situation could become a he-said, he-said and since they're both consumate liars, where's the traction.

Posted by felicity at 11/21/2007 @ 12:30pm
Everyone is looking the other way. I know it's not fashionable to say this but I'm sitting this one out. Who could I possibly vote for in '08?

Posted by JAZZIS4U 11/21/2007 @ 11:28am

I hear you, Jazzis. So do a lot of others here in the schizophrenic wasteland called America.

Unfortunately it almost certainly does not matter who becomes the next President in 2008 because The System has gotten so beyond the boundaries of any semblance of democratic control that the President is now more captive than captain.

If I was a little more cynical I might even argue that the best way out of the darkened forest is too pour more gasoline on the fire and root for someone as imbecilic as Rudy Guiliani for POTUS. But that's an absurd way to order one's priorities; truly that kind of thinking is the road to hell.

In a sane America, Dennis Kucinich would be in the thick of the current battle. And I suspect that the rising popularity of Ron Paul is the best that an increasingly callous and self-obsessed nation can do --vote for the candidate whose rubric essentially is gut the government to save the country. Perhaps that's what may be required.

In the meantime I believe we have no choice but to persevere. If not Kucinich then why not John Edwards? He, alone among the so-called front runners, is casting fiery projectiles castigating our corporate-captive government.

It is one of the more farcical --and indicative-- facts of American socio-political life that the more honest and on target the candidate, the more sidelined the message --i.e. the progression from Hillary to Obama to Edwards to Kucinich.

In the end, each of us must ask ourselves what Jazzis should do.

P.S. Here's a startlingly insightful Norman Mailer excerpt I recently stumbled on via Jeffrey St. Clair at Counterpunch:

So the Yippies came out of the Hippies, ex-Hippies, diggers, bikers, drop-outs from college, hipsters up from the South. They made a community of sorts, for their principles were simple-everybody, obviously, must be allowed to do (no way around the next three words) his own thing, provided he hurt no one doing it-they were yet to learn that society is built on many people hurting many people, it is just who does the hurting which is forever in dispute. They did not necessarily understand how much their simple presence hurt many good citizens in the secret valve of the heart-the Hippies and probably the Yippies did not recognize the depth of schizophrenia on which society is built. We call it hypocrisy, but it is schizophrenia, a modest ranch-house life with Draconian military adventures; a land of equal opportunity where a white culture sits upon a Black; a horizontal community of Christian love and a vertical hierarchy of churches-the cross was well designed! A land of family, a land of illicit heat; a politics of principle, a politics of property; nation of mental hygiene with movies and TV reminiscent of a mental pigpen; patriots with a detestation of obscenity who pollute their rivers; citizens with a detestation of government control who cannot bear any situation not controlled. The list must be endless, the comic profits are finally small-the society was able to stagger on like a 400-lb policeman walking uphill because living in such an unappreciated and obese state it did not at least have to explode into schizophrenia-life went on. Boys could go patiently to church and wait their turn to burn villages in Vietnam.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 12:33pm
Snarflle snarffle....McClellan just trying to sell books. Georgie is as clean as a whistle....trust me on this folks and pass me that bucket of vicodin.

Posted by RUSHLIMB 11/21/2007 @ 11:36am

Never thought I'd say it. Bravo, Rush Limbo!

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 12:36pm
All any dimwit apologist needs to know about Plame's status is that the CIA asked for the investigation into her outing.

And no crime was determined to have been committed primarily because Scooter Libby was found guilty of obstruction of justice, which the esteemed Mr. Fitzgerald likened to "throwing sand in the umpire's eyes.". You don't have to be a rocket surgeon to know that innocent people do not need justice obstructed on their behalf.

Posted by drhammer at 11/21/2007 @ 12:44pm
PLUNGER

What's the Krongard connection?

Posted by drhammer at 11/21/2007 @ 12:46pm
What's the Krongard connection?---Posted by DRHAMMER 11/21/2007 @ 12:46pm

Oh, boy.

Here comes six 3000 word cut & pastes from "zionistmindcontrol.org" or Wayne Madsen on how Krongard is the illegitimate son of Jack Ruby or how he loaded the explosives onto Paul Wellstone's plane!

heheh

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 12:57pm
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 12:57pm

Fuck "heheh".

Put him on ignore, if he hasn't become too big a part of your identity here.

Posted by drhammer at 11/21/2007 @ 1:08pm
But wasn't there something about her not serving overseas in 5 years that automatically made her non covert?

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 08:23am

It was established in a court of law that she was covert.

Now shut the fuck up.

Posted by Dr Decibels at 11/21/2007 @ 1:08pm
Ahhhh.... Kucinich! To be sure, he's the only adult running for president but since cash is the only thing people are paying attention to we're all totally screwed. Nothing ever changes does it? The average person on the street that I talk to thinks Kucinich is nuts. Negative press is very effective, just witness Russert's UFO question during a recent Dem debate. We can rail and yak all we want. Money talks and shit walks. It always will!

Posted by jazzis4u at 11/21/2007 @ 1:11pm
Negative press is very effective, just witness Russert's UFO question during a recent Dem debate. We can rail and yak all we want. Money talks and shit walks. It always will!

Posted by JAZZIS4U 11/21/2007 @ 1:11pm

Interestingly, I heard that Dennis' poll numbers spiked up a bit after the UFO hubbub. It is, after all, a popular mythology. And no wonder is it? Who wouldn't want to believe in benevolent space aliens who can potentially step in before we soil ourselves too completely?

It's not unlike God belief in my estimation, and probably more plausible.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 1:34pm
But wasn't there something about her not serving overseas in 5 years that automatically made her non covert?

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 08:23am

It was established in a court of law that she was covert.

Now shut the fuck up.

Posted by DR DECIBELS

Sticks and stones may break my bones but you're an asshole. Which court "established" her as covert?

Posted by abell12ct at 11/21/2007 @ 1:39pm
Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 1:39pm

Arguing about the current administration's culpability in the Plame outing and the question of its legality is like arguing about Jeffrey Dahmer's parking tickets.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot!....Over.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 1:49pm
Posted by DRHAMMER 11/21/2007 @ 1:08pm

Oh, no...love reading PLUNGER. After all, if it wasn't for him, none of us would realize that for the PAST 7 months, World War-III has been going on and we're living in martial law!

"Time is up. World War III starts Friday – and it will coincide with conditions inside the US that lead to Martial Law, through either an Anthrax attack or a phony Bird Flu Outbreak."---Posted by PLUNGER 03/28/2007 @ 7:46pm

BLOG | Posted 03/28/2007 @ 02:14am MoveOn Launches Online Townhalls by Ari Melber

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 1:53pm
Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 1:39pm

If you have to ask you are too stupid to understand the answer.

Now STFU.

Posted by Dr Decibels at 11/21/2007 @ 1:56pm
"Time is up. World War III starts Friday – and it will coincide with conditions inside the US that lead to Martial Law, through either an Anthrax attack or a phony Bird Flu Outbreak."---Posted by PLUNGER 03/28/2007 @ 7:46pm

Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 1:53pm

Maskot,

When Katrina vH recently issued your reprimand I quietly smiled. Although she dialed you in as a hardcore bleakness blatherer, I know that you're not quite that bad.

On the other hand, your filings here and subsequent regurgitations are more than just a little obnoxious. Sure, the Plunger and Rese postings are over the top and ineffective precisely because of it, but the cogent point that the nation is in peril can hardly be overstated.

I'm sure that deep down in your doggy heart you feel it too.

So if excoriation is needed here maybe it should be focused on the fascist neo-fools who rant on the radio, run the country, and post here all too frequently?

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 2:06pm
Er, Pelosi has put impeachment on the table before and she very can do it again:

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) welcomed a resolution by Rep. Jay Inslee (D-Wash.) to begin an impeachment inquiry of Attorney General Alberto Gonzales.

"Of course it's merited," Pelosi said. "I've called for the resignation of the attorney general."

%%%%%%%%%%%%

What it comes down to is whether it's only about cHeney, instead of Frito this time, for Pelosi to say that an impeachment inquiry put forward-- is merited, or whether it's for the whole enchilada...

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 2:08pm
Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 12:08pm

don't forget to state your source when you cut'n'paste

http://www.powerlineblog.com/archives/011038.php

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2007 @ 2:09pm
http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/003834.php

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 2:32pm
American Research Group, Inc.

November 13, 2007 - Impeachment

A total of 64% of American voters say that President George W. Bush has abused his powers as president. Of the 64%, 14% (9% of all voters) say the abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment, 33% (21% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses, but he should not be impeached, and 53% (34% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses and Mr. Bush should be impeached and removed from office.

Question: Which one of these four statements do you agree with about President Bush:

1. President Bush has not abused his powers as president.

2. President Bush has abused his powers as president, but the abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment under the Constitution.

3. President Bush has abused his powers as president which rise to the level of impeachable offenses under the Constitution, but he should not be impeached.

4. President Bush has abused his powers as president which rise to the level of impeachable offenses under the Constitution and he should be impeached and removed from office.

11/12/07 ___________#1 ____#2 ___#3 ___#4

All voters ___________36% ___9% __21% __34%

Democrats (39%) ____16% ___9% __25% __50%

Republicans (35%) ___64% ___6% __12% __18%

Independents (26%)__29% __11% __26% __34%

Based on 1,100 completed telephone interviews among a random sample of registered voters nationwide November 9-12, 2007. The theoretical margin of error is plus or minus 3 percentage points, 95% of the time.

A total of 70% of American voters say that Vice President Dick Cheney has abused his powers as vice president. Of the 70%, 26% (18% of all voters) say the abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment, 13% (9% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses, but he should not be impeached, and 61% (43% of all voters) say the abuses rise to the level of impeachable offenses and Mr. Cheney should be impeached and removed from office.

Question: Which one of these four statements do you agree with about Vice President Cheney: 1. Vice President Cheney has not abused his powers as vice president.

2. Vice President Cheney has abused his powers as vice president, but the abuses are not serious enough to warrant impeachment under the Constitution.

3. Vice President Cheney has abused his powers as vice president which rise to the level of impeachable offenses under the Constitution, but he should not be impeached.

4. Vice President Cheney has abused his powers as vice president which rise to the level of impeachable offenses under the Constitution and he should be impeached and removed from office.

11/12/07 ___________#1 ____#2 ___ #3 ___ #4

All voters ___________30% __18% ___9% __43%

Democrats (39%) _____6% __25% ___6% __63%

Republicans (35%) ___61% __12% ___6% __21%

Independents (26%)__26% __16% __18% __39%

Based on 1,100 completed telephone interviews among a random sample of registered voters nationwide November 9-12, 2007. The theoretical margin of error is plus or minus 3 percentage points, 95% of the time.

American Research Group, Inc.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Thus we see that while 70% feel cHeney absured the system, 52% of the US population believe that cHeney committed impeachable offenses-- while only 64% feel hsuB abused the system, but 55% believe that hsuB committed impeachable offenses... very interesting.

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 3:10pm
This Vallerie Plame business is small potatoes compared to everything else Dick and Bush have done. A good starting point is 911 itself. There exists a mountain of compelling evidence, albeit circumstantial, that Dick and Bush were directly involved in the planning and execution of 911. The 911 commission report coverup does not suffice. These traitors should hang, and the entire wold should start getting ANGRY and demand some answers!

Posted by MATTMAN at 11/21/2007 @ 3:13pm
This Vallerie Plame business is small potatoes compared to everything else Dick and Bush have done.

Posted by MATTMAN 11/21/2007 @ 3:13pm

Precisely, MM.

I repeat.

Arguing about the current administration's culpability in the Plame outing and the question of its legality is like arguing about Jeffrey Dahmer's parking tickets.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!....Over.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 3:17pm
Arguing about the current administration's culpability in the Plame outing and the question of its legality is like arguing about Jeffrey Dahmer's parking tickets.

Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?!....Over.

Posted by B_KOOL_66 11/21/2007 @ 3:17pm

Roger that!

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 11/21/2007 @ 3:28pm
Posted by B_KOOL_66 11/21/2007 @ 2:06pm |

Sorry B_KOOL, but things being bad is not an excuse to excuse idiocy and insanity....from EITHER side!

PLUNGER predicts "World War-III and martial law" on a specific day...and then just gets to keep his "street cred" for other information or even predictions?....don't think so.

It's like HSUB....predicted impeachment (back in January) no later than the end of LAST month. Now he gets to KEEP predicting it for another year, like he's "in the know"? Or that Gore will run in '08 not a week after GORE's spokesperson went on Daily Kos and said stop gathering signatures, ain't happening?

And all that stuff that RESE and PLUNGEY put on "Bush" and "Cheney"....just you wait, they'll simple "Edit: Find & Replace" and insert Hillary or even Obama if they win next year and expect that everybody just "forgets" that they predicted NO election occurring and "establishment of the Bush fascist dictatorship" for 7 years....and just leap into ANOTHER 4-8 years of "Hillary is in bed with the Jesuits and Jews!!!!" 3000 word Cut & Pastes from www.aipac-killed-john-lennon.org.

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 3:32pm
Fitzgerald has closed this investigation despite what the pathological liar and leftist John Dean says.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/21/2007 @ 3:21pm

Pathological liars just love calling significant figures pathological liars. It's a method of feeling in control.

In your case, Liberty-Has-Left-The-Building, it appears that the thorazine [sntp.net]has done its work.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 3:36pm
What did they get Al Capone on? And what did he eventually die from? The hsuB/cHeney admin deserves no less.

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 3:41pm
Sorry BK, I don't put any prescription drugs in my body. I live a natural life without drugs, legal or illegal.

Posted by Leave-Home-Without-Your-Liberty 11/21/2007 @ 3:51pm

That's the beauty of the drugs, they can be so easily slipped surreptitiously to the unsuspecting victim. Just ask the CIA. And I'm sure they'll be happy to let you check your file for any errors too. After all, it'd be a terrible mistake if an innocent person were sent to a black site for torture. I don't mean to imply that we torture people, of course.

But you've no need to worry 'cuz you're doing your job so well, Herr "Liberty".

I love your code name by the way. It's a brilliant cover.

Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/21/2007 @ 4:07pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/21/2007 @ 3:51pm

He just uses DU-- depleted uranium...

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 4:38pm
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 3:32pm

Not long ago I didn't believe in the 911 conspiracy theories. Saying "911 conspiracy theory" in itself implies a negative, "out there" connotation. But really into it, at both sides of the argument, at the theories and their debunkers, and you may form an opinion in light of it all as I have. I now believe that this was truly an inside job.

Granted, I'm politically left. But I'm not a sensationalist. There are times when it's hard to accept the extraordinary. This is not about picking sides. We can only search for truth, regardless of what we want or don't want it to be.

Posted by MATTMAN at 11/21/2007 @ 4:42pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 4:39pm

FRANK, did Rush pretend that he DIDN'T want Her Nibs to get elected (and thus guarentee himself high ratings and something to talk about for the next 4-8 years)?

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 4:43pm
Posted by MATTMAN 11/21/2007 @ 4:42pm

You can believe anything you like, MATT...it's what you DO with it (or it does to you) that matters.

Look at RESE and PLUNGEY. They have, as Nietzche once warned, looked too long into the Abyss of conspiracy theorum and the Abyss has looked into them. Now they're consumed with...posting long screeds (when a link would work just as well), acting like the modern Internet equivalent of the "street preacher", forecasting "Doom! Doom! Ignore me at ye peril, unbelievers!"

So you believe "9/11 was an inside job"...fine. What are you going to DO with that belief? Start cruising the Web stopping at every site that offers "inside information" and "secret video the Media won't show" and "a guy whose brother was on the transport flight that took American Flight #77 passengers and crew to a Secret CIA Holding Facility, while the missile hit the Pentagon!!!!"?

go ahead...people do similar things on the Internet every day (much of it involving Kleenex...ask young WILL, heheh) to similar results and utility!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 4:49pm
Trust me, Limbaugh has a lot more to worry about if Hillary gets elected than the other way around.----Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 4:47pm

Oh yeah? What's she going to do, FRANK? Love to have something to add to my Archives on you predicting how Her Majesty will "shut down Limbaugh, Day One, Hour One upon taking office" and explain exactly why the womam who has fundraisers with RUPERT MURDOCH is going to go after "Right-wing Media"!

heheh

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 4:51pm
Well for starters, she'll be in control of the FCC and she won't be standing in the way of a Fairness Doctrine.----Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 4:53pm

Cool, now ...the date? First six months of her Admin?....second six months?....2010?...2011?...2012 just before re-election?

See, I'm kind of betting that she DOESN'T...and she doesn't because she knows that Limbaugh can't touch her too bad (no worse than the Blogs or Blogosphere that hate her...that's the LEFT-wing Blogosphere, btw).

And a "Hillary wants to silence Rush and her opponents" headline is worse than anything Limbaugh could do to her.

And her ol' pal Rupert isn't going to want some FCC Commissionar saying that Fox News isn't "fair and balanced" and needs more libs.

And I feel pretty confident in that bet....she's going to disappoint you on your quest to "crush Rush", FRANK.

And Limbaugh's ratings will skyrocket with another Clinton to go after....I wouldn't be surprised if he VOTES FOR HER! It's worth another $5 Million to his contract!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 5:01pm
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 4:49pm

I've still got those two on ignore because keeping all that around makes it difficult to communicate with others. I've also never really read any of their spams. But I do admire their willingness and effort to provide, what they believe, is a public service by providing this info. It's a shame, because their tactic I think steals credibility from the real story, that is, the truth. Rese and Plunger have made stereotypes of themselves.

Posted by MATTMAN at 11/21/2007 @ 5:05pm
Lets get that damage assessment leaked, George Bush is a traitor, a liar, and a killer. Woops - I am sorry - I forgot to say idiot.

Posted by conshame at 11/21/2007 @ 5:24pm
Technically Crab, I think a President can out a CIA agent.

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 08:19am

Technically, no he cannot. Morally he cannot. Ethically, he cannot.

Posted by ABELL12CT 11/21/2007 @ 12:08pm

Stop listening to the propaganda machine. Learn the facts. I have covered this too many times for you to play ignorant. We are talking national security here. Not some fantasy about speeking the truth to power being traitorous, but actual traitorous actions taken by the president and his staff.

Read this, then repost your opinion.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070529_Unclassified_P lame_employement.pdf

this is the status of Valerie Plame submitted to the US court system by the US government lawyer, approved by the republican head of the CIA.

"Ms. Wilson was a covert CIA employee for who the CIA was taking affirmative measures to conceal her intelligence relationship to the United States."

"...Ms. Wilson. engaged in temporary duty travel overseas on official business."

"She traveled at least seven times to more than ten countries"

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:28pm
Brewster Jennings is a CIA front company working covertly on nuclear counter-proliferation.

Posted by conshame at 11/21/2007 @ 5:29pm
Undercover CIA Operatives and their associates ARE FAIR GAME.

If anyone in the CIA doesn't want their cover to be blown, you better think twice about associating with anyone in the agency whose husband takes it upon himself to tell the truth to the American people.

Posted by conshame at 11/21/2007 @ 5:32pm
LIBERTY, as a former member of the armed forces, you should be ashamed that you support the outing of an agent of the US government. Clearly, you were never involved in the intelligence field. For a reason.

You advocated for a war to prevent the spread of WMD's, but are perfectly happy to destroy ongoing counterproliferation activities? How do you square that?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:34pm
Brewster Jennings is a CIA front company working covertly on nuclear counter-proliferation.

Posted by CONSHAME 11/21/2007 @ 5:29pm

not anymore.

Untold amounts of tax payer money has been squandered. Contacts that took years to establish have been uncovered by the Iranians, Syrians and others. these are the people that LUVVY and crew are completely terrified of, but because it makes Dear Leader look bad, they are willing to play the fool for him. They twist every opinion they ever had about national security into Escher models of logic.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:37pm
LUVVY, I want you to read the employment summary and then tell me why you think it was OK for ANYBODY (meaning Armitage, Rove, Libby, VP Cheney) to leak or confirm her name and job to Robert Novak or any other media outlet. Remember, at the time we were just into a war to stop the proliferation of weapons of mass destruction by Iraq, as you know all too well. Where in your moral paradigm does it allow the ruin of the US guvts attempts to find out all they can about the Iraqi wmd programs in order to silence the spouse (a republican) of a covert CIA agent who was doing what he thought was best for the country that he had served for decades?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:47pm
POTUS 41:

Your mission is different now than it was back then. The Soviet Union is no more. Some people think, "what do we need intelligence for?" My answer to that is we have plenty of enemies. Plenty of enemies abound. Unpredictable leaders willing to export instability or to commit crimes against humanity. Proliferation of weapons of mass destruction, terrorism, narco-trafficking, people killing each other, fundamentalists killing each other in the name of God. These and more. Many more. As our analysts know, as our collectors of intelligence know - these are our enemies. To combat them we need more intelligence, not less. We need more human intelligence. That means we need more protection for the methods we use to gather intelligence and more protection for our sources, particularly our human sources, people that are risking their lives for their country.

Even though I'm a tranquil guy now at this stage of my life, I have nothing but contempt and anger for those who betray the trust by exposing the name of our sources. They are, in my view, the most insidious, of traitors.

ooohh, then he said this..

And when it comes to the mission of CIA and the Intelligence Community, George Tenet has it exactly right. Give the President and the policymakers the best possible intelligence product and stay out of the policymaking or policy implementing except as specifically decreed in the law

Tenet should have been paying attention.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:56pm
Sorry, source: https://www.cia.gov/news-information/speeches-testimony/1999/bush_speech _042699.html

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 5:58pm
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 4:49pm

Frita made up to look like a frog in a pot of water on the stove wilst the burner is slowly being turned up. Just a fading dream she thought she might have had once...

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 5:59pm
3. Despite the rantings of anti-Bush leftists, Fitzgerald knows who "leaked" Valerie Plames identity and has never charged Armitage or anyone else with that supposed crime.

Because Libby lied to the GJ, and obstructed the investigation. Convenient for you, yes?

And why do you guys insist on using only Armitages name? Rove has been shown to have "leaked" (ie, leaked the name of of a covert agent for political gain), as has Libby.

As you should know, knowledge and intent had to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Without the truth, it is darn difficult to prove someone's knowledge and intent. Libby lied to the GJ, Rove went FIVE TIMES!! to "clarify", McClellan is saying Chimpy and Howler Monkey lied to him about their knowledge.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 6:06pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 6:03pm

Official pronouncements they believed

Joseph Padilla is a dirty bomber

there is no doubt Iraq has reconstituted their nuclear program.

Saddam and Usama are one and the same

It will be a cakewalk

Ta ta for now.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 6:10pm
Naw, ¬v¬ would probably contaminate his interrigators to death with his BO UD depleted uranium sweat...

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 6:11pm
ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZWe know the ending,now we don't have to read the bookzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted by davebarlett at 11/21/2007 @ 6:24pm
"Time is up. World War III starts Friday – and it will coincide with conditions inside the US that lead to Martial Law, through either an Anthrax attack or a phony Bird Flu Outbreak."---Posted by PLUNGER 03/28/2007 @ 7:46pm

BLOG | Posted 03/28/2007 @ 02:14am MoveOn Launches Online Townhalls by Ari Melber

Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 1:53pm

YEAH, WHAT WAS HE THINKING...

That should be WWIV (ala Norman Podhoretz....)

Posted by w_m_bear at 11/21/2007 @ 6:42pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 5:58pm

Nope. I think he knows what keeps him in business and a "President Clinton" does a MUCH better job than playing defense for a GOP Congress and Dubya. Hillary as Prez would be a gold mine for ol' Oxy-Rushi.

It just requires looking past "Step A"...to "Steps D, E, F, and G", FRANK.

You're more of a ditto-head than you realize. It's just that you're the "anti-matter" version of one. But like the DHs, you're getting played by Limbaugh same as the guys out there who still think they're in the majority on the war and love Bush and hate "Hillary Rotten (Satan's fave daughter)".

So a Hillary Admin is worth a fortune to Rush. And she won't touch him, because she knows it will work against her....plus (the thing you keep glossing over) her Money Boy at Fox News (Murdoch) won't like it.

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 8:01pm
Just a fading dream she thought she might have had once...----Posted by HSUBFOOLS 11/21/2007 @ 5:59pm

The psychological term "projection" is completely lost on you, isn't it?

LOL!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 8:02pm
Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 8:02pm

Frita for your part in protecting of hsuB/cHeney admin from impeachment in any way you can, it's called avoidance or denial, much like your denial that your Frito would not get kicked out of the hsuB/cHeney admin and that Pelosi would never say it was a good idea to open an impeachment inquiry...

So how warm is the water in the pot you're sitting in while dressed your frog suit, aye Frita?

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 8:13pm
I like John Nichols' work, and certainly agree that impeachment needs to be put back on the table. But let's not go overboard on Scottie's little publicity stunt. The intrepid emptywheel [thenexthurrah.typepad.com] has laid out the facts (as far as we know them) about McClellan over at The Next Hurrah, under the heading "Stop making Scottie McC Rich!!"

Still, its worthwhile to fan the flames, to get more public attention about this. Maybe it will be enough, finally, to get the attention of Congress, and get impeachment back on the table.

Bob in HI

Posted by BobSchacht at 11/21/2007 @ 8:24pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 11/21/2007 @ 8:13pm

Hey, you've still got until NEXT October to claim your prediction was accurate.

BTW, when Gonzales left, I said I was wrong. But it'll take until January 20th, 2009 (for impeachment) and November 8th, 2008 (for "Gore in '08") for you to....and then you won't.

After all you never have...and you promised you would 3 weeks ago if Gore didn't announce his run.

And what did you do? Just kept going with it, as you have today.

See, the craziness is fun...but it's the dishonesty that truly defines you!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 9:12pm
I guess Scotty won't be invited to the ranch to sit in rocking chairs and sip lemonade.

Posted by proudlib at 11/21/2007 @ 9:20pm
No response, LUVVY?

Do tell us about duty and service.

Plame served. How much loyalty did that get her?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 9:31pm
Posted by PROUDLIB 11/21/2007 @ 9:20pm

He might get that quail hunting invite though.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 9:32pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/21/2007 @ 9:16pm

Why?

and you and yours too!

Posted by Mask at 11/21/2007 @ 10:25pm
yep, life in iraq is sure better now. [atimes.com]

"You, people of the media, say things in Fallujah are good," Mohammad Sammy, an aid worker for the Iraqi Red Crescent in Fallujah, told Inter Press Service (IPS). "Then why don't you come and live in this paradise with us? It is so easy to say things for you, isn't it?"

is this the thanksgiving present you want to send to the people of iraq?

would you tolerate this in your home town?

His anger is due to the fact that the embattled city is still completely closed and surrounded by military checkpoints to make it look like an isolated island. Those who are not genuine residents of the city are not granted the biometric identification badge from the US Marines, and are thus not allowed to enter the city.

Since the November 2004 US-led attack on the city, named Operation Phantom Fury, which left approximately 70% of the city destroyed, the US military has required residents to undergo retina scans and finger-printing to gain a bar-code for identification.

"This isolation has destroyed the economy of the city that was once one the best in Iraq," Professor Mohammad al-Dulaymi of al-Anbar University told IPS. "All of the other cities in the province used to do their wholesale shopping in Fallujah, but now they have to find alternatives, leaving the city's businesses to starve," he explained.

All of the residents interviewed by IPS were extremely angry with the media for recent reports that the situation in the city is good. Many refused to be quoted for different reasons.

"Fallujah is probably the city that has had the most media coverage in the history of the occupation," Hatam Jawad, a school headmaster in Fallujah, told IPS. "People are tired of shouting and appearing on TV to complain, without feeling any change in their sorrowful living situation. Some of them are afraid of police revenge for telling the truth."

Many residents told IPS that US-backed Iraqi police and army personnel have detained people who have spoken to the media.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/21/2007 @ 10:46pm
I witnessed the Watergate debacle as a young adult. I watched the news unfold, saw the testimony, watched a pitiful man resign the presidency of the USA in political defeat, read the mea culpa books, saw the movie. Now in my late middle age, the Plame Affair is exhibiting all the hallmarks of another debacle. And now it's Scotty's turn. Jeb Magruder comes to mind. Another eager, loyal, and naive youngster in a house full of manipulative, conniving, self-interested old men suddenly wakes-up and speaks-up, perhaps privy to knowledge of what is in the offing and wanting to stake-out his position. Or, maybe he is truly a patriot letting loose a salvo he hopes will shake the Congress out of its lethargy. House Judiciary Committee, start your process!!

Posted by Moderatus at 11/21/2007 @ 10:47pm
After all you never have...

Posted by MASK 11/21/2007 @ 9:12pm

Er, Frita, I've even seen you post that saved post of mine (as you psychotically save all my posts), of me saying that I'd be wrong about my prediction that Gore would enter the race by the 30th if he didn't, a couple of times now. That sounds more like dishonesty on your part. Or, guess that blond wig you wear really is too tight on that little head of yours... to help much on your recall.

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/21/2007 @ 11:19pm
Posted by MODERATUS 11/21/2007 @ 10:47pm

The similarities between ChimpCO and Nixons era are too great to list. Sad that Chimpies playmates learned all the wrong lessons form Nixon.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 11:31pm
Scotty will do what is best for Scotty, but I doubt he will totally rat out his friends.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/21/2007 @ 11:33pm
Impeach Pelosi.

Posted by mikecope at 11/22/2007 @ 12:58am
Unlike you Frank, I served. You can't begin to understand duty and service simply because your son served.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 11/21/2007 @ 6:33pm

Well Luvvy, I served, I would say that you have no sense whatsoever of what duty and service are about.

Duty and service extend beyond blind loyalty to one man or one ideology - that way lies fascism and the death of the American experiment.

It would do well to remember what it is that you swear to support and defend when you join the military - The Constitution of the United States of America, against all enemies, foreign and domestic. Never in our history have all those words been so important; we forget them at our peril.

Remember also the Preamble to that great document that specifies who it is that the Constitution represents - We The People. In essence, your duty and service as a member of the military is to the people of the United States, not to the President, or Sec Def, or any other single person. In the rush of the neocon fascistas to inculcate their cult of personality since the appointment of Shrub, there has been a decided effort to make people lose sight of this simple fact.

Posted by skeletonman at 11/22/2007 @ 03:53am
It has been a long time since in these pages several of the bloggers have claimed the administration lied, and lots of other bloggers claimed these where false affirmations.

Well, now the true came up, shame to those who closed their eyes, at that time, and continue to do so now.

The administration of Lies is a reality. POOR AMERICA

Posted by areyouok at 11/22/2007 @ 09:05am
Posted by SKELETONMAN 11/22/2007 @ 03:53am

Well said.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/22/2007 @ 10:21am
Curious. We need McClellan to tell us that everyone but the fall guy was involved in this? What a joke Scott....tell me something I don't know. Shame on Congress for allowing these traitors to remain in office.

Posted by OneVote at 11/22/2007 @ 10:38am
Chimpies allies strike back

By RICHARD A. OPPEL Jr.

Published: November 22, 2007

BAGHDAD -- Saudi Arabia and Libya, both considered allies by the United States in its fight against terrorism, were the source of about 60 percent of the foreign fighters who came to Iraq in the past year to serve as suicide bombers or to facilitate other attacks, according to senior American military officials.

Another claim of the sheep disproved, however,

The records also underscore how the insurgency in Iraq remains both overwhelmingly Iraqi and Sunni. American officials now estimate that the flow of foreign fighters was 80 to 110 per month during the first half of this year and about 60 per month during the summer. The numbers fell sharply in October to no more than 40, partly as a result of the Sinjar raid, the American officials say.

Saudis accounted for the largest number of fighters listed on the records by far -- 305, or 41 percent -- American intelligence officers found as they combed through documents and computers in the weeks after the raid. The data show that despite increased efforts by Saudi Arabia to clamp down on would-be terrorists since Sept. 11, 2001, when 15 of the 19 hijackers were Saudi, some Saudi fighters are still getting through.

Libyans accounted for 137 foreign fighters, or 18 percent of the total, the senior American military officials said.

In contrast to the comparatively small number of foreigners, more than 25,000 inmates are in American detention centers in Iraq. Of those, only about 290, or some 1.2 percent, are foreigners, military officials say.

the senior American military officials said they also believed that Saudi citizens provided the majority of financing for Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia. "They don't want to see the Shias come to dominate in Iraq," one American official said.

Please read the whole article.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/22/2007 @ 10:39am
Impeach Pelosi.

Posted by MIKECOPE 11/22/2007 @ 12:58am | ignore this person

Motion seconded.

Posted by OneVote at 11/22/2007 @ 10:40am
Impeach Pelosi.

Posted by MIKECOPE 11/22/2007 @ 12:58am | ignore this person

Motion seconded.

Posted by ONEVOTE 11/22/2007 @ 10:40am

hey that's great!

i say SWIFTBOAT HER.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/22/2007 @ 11:41am
Posted by FRANKGRITS 11/22/2007 @ 11:44am

don't forget to say a prayer for the turkeys.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/22/2007 @ 12:11pm
As yet, no one has supported, with any material fact, any positive achievement of this regime. Unless of course you believe, as most Neo-Cons do, that the United States, and civil liberty in general, stand as the greatest obstacles to their objectives. One need only "Google" the Project for a new American Century (Try it).

Taken from the Neo-Con viewpoint, their successes are many. On their watch: Two elections were stolen, 9-11 was allowed to happen, the Bin Ladin family (all of them) have repeatedly been sheltered from justice, Al Qaida is larger than ever, Our national economy is in ruin, Corporate media effectively gags dissent, Torture is a topic for debate, Convicted felons are above the law (if well-connected). Bush's own closest associates make treasonous accusations against him while the media remains silent, proposed(and currently very-much-alive) impeachment goes barely noticed, free speech in public is restricted to "free-speech-zones", warrant-less wiretapping of every American is a fact-of-life, while "immunity" is no longer a treatment for a national disease but rather its ally.

We are impoverished, indebted, hated on a global scale, weakened in arms, embarrassed in global standing, and distrustful, even fearful of our own rulers (no I did NOT say leaders). We are strip-searched at airports, jailed in detention camps, denied due-process-at-law, surveilled in our communications, subject to fire from our own military and paramilitary, and often-surly guards require us to show "our papers" when entering public establishments.

Our imagined difference from the Nazis is only a matter of degree. These are material facts. They also represent Bush's greatest successes.

The Neo-Cons and the Bin Ladin family couldn't be happier with the outcome. Call these "liberal" rants if you wish. America is, in its mainstream a "liberal" nation. The founding fathers were "liberal". We're in good company.

Posted by NeoConker at 11/22/2007 @ 12:21pm
The right wing strategy ought to be clear: Simultaneously discredit McClellan's statement, while using it as a tool to implicate him.

Can both these strategies work, or will they cancel each other out? If they do(cancel each other out) score one for right wing spin.

Posted by NeoConker at 11/22/2007 @ 12:30pm
fuck impeachment. these people need to hang in the netherlands.

Posted by loveloki at 11/22/2007 @ 1:20pm
He outed her as an analyst? Sorry, but that has the same National Security implications as outing my neighbor as a professor at a local university.

Posted by homerjelwood at 11/22/2007 @ 2:13pm
HJ, I take it you haven't a clue. All good covert spys are analysts to a certain degree and when outed-- not only put themselves in danger of being captured and now tortured as per hsuB/cHeney admin approving wink and a nod to do so, but also exposing secret contacts and other US spies in her net, which did happen. We lost a whole network in the ME per hsuB/cHeney treason. Just because she wasn't a covert spy/assassin-type, makes little dif as either is treason to expose/out-- and morally reprehensible esp since it was done simply for self-serving chicken-hawk political reasons. A good reason to bring back the gallows.

Posted by hsuBfools at 11/22/2007 @ 3:11pm
@homerjelwood

Provided, of course that the local University is a military academy, and your neighbor is teaching classified courses.

Posted by NeoConker at 11/22/2007 @ 3:11pm
Posted by LOVELOKI 11/22/2007 @ 1:20pm

No capital punishment in The Netherlands....heheh

Posted by Mask at 11/22/2007 @ 4:13pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 11/21/2007 @ 11:28am

They are playing politics with their job of upholding the constitution of the United States.

Well, either that or you're a raving lunatic.

Posted by pontificus at 11/22/2007 @ 11:05pm
Posted by CRABWALK 11/22/2007 @ 10:39am

Well, CRABBIE, the bad news for you and the terrorists is that the violence in Iraq is down 'phenomenally' in the last three months. The good news for you and the terrorists is that you can always hope for a revival.

Posted by pontificus at 11/22/2007 @ 11:09pm
Impeach Pelosi.

Posted by MIKECOPE 11/22/2007 @ 12:58am | ignore this person

Motion seconded.

Motion Thirdeded! Albeit for different reasons!

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/22/2007 @ 11:41am

i say SWIFTBOAT HER.

What, does she have memories of being in Cambodia 'seared, SEARED' into her brain too?

Posted by pontificus at 11/22/2007 @ 11:12pm
Hey, CRABBIE, how's that secret covert agent angle working out for you? Did you send that letter to Fitz demanding to know why no indictments were forthcoming for the crime of 'outing a covert agent'? Surely, you're not shirking your duty as an American citizen who knows the truth, er, trutherism?

Posted by pontificus at 11/22/2007 @ 11:15pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/22/2007 @ 11:15pm

firstly, 'scuse the mega-cut'n'paste, but i doubt pontiflogicus would go to the link.

here's praying he reads it.

here's praying he believes it.

"Fallujah under a different siege

By Ali al-Fadhily

FALLUJAH - Three years after a devastating United States-led siege of the city, residents of Fallujah continue to struggle with a shattered economy, infrastructure and lack of mobility.

The city that was routed in November 2004 is still suffering the worst humanitarian conditions under a siege that continues. Although military actions are down to the minimum inside the city, local and US authorities do not seem to be thinking of ending

the agonies of the over 400,000 residents of Fallujah.

"You, people of the media, say things in Fallujah are good," Mohammad Sammy, an aid worker for the Iraqi Red Crescent in Fallujah, told Inter Press Service (IPS). "Then why don't you come and live in this paradise with us? It is so easy to say things for you, isn't it?"

His anger is due to the fact that the embattled city is still completely closed and surrounded by military checkpoints to make it look like an isolated island. Those who are not genuine residents of the city are not granted the biometric identification badge from the US Marines, and are thus not allowed to enter the city.

Since the November 2004 US-led attack on the city, named Operation Phantom Fury, which left approximately 70% of the city destroyed, the US military has required residents to undergo retina scans and finger-printing to gain a bar-code for identification.

"This isolation has destroyed the economy of the city that was once one the best in Iraq," Professor Mohammad al-Dulaymi of al-Anbar University told IPS. "All of the other cities in the province used to do their wholesale shopping in Fallujah, but now they have to find alternatives, leaving the city's businesses to starve," he explained.

All of the residents interviewed by IPS were extremely angry with the media for recent reports that the situation in the city is good. Many refused to be quoted for different reasons.

"Fallujah is probably the city that has had the most media coverage in the history of the occupation," Hatam Jawad, a school headmaster in Fallujah, told IPS. "People are tired of shouting and appearing on TV to complain, without feeling any change in their sorrowful living situation. Some of them are afraid of police revenge for telling the truth."

Many residents told IPS that US-backed Iraqi police and army personnel have detained people who have spoken to the media.

"I am not going to tell you whether it is good or bad to be a Fallujah resident," 55-year-old lawyer, Shakir Naji, told IPS. "Why don't you just ask what the prices of essential materials are and judge for yourself? Kerosene for heating is almost US$1 per liter, a jar of propane gas is $15, and it is not winter yet when the prices will definitely be doubled."

Water and electricity services are at a minimum in the city. An Oxfam International report released in July found that 70% of Iraqis do not have access to safe drinking water.

Since the November 2004 siege, entire neighborhoods remain totally destroyed, and with no water or electricity. Most of the businesses in Fallujah remain closed.

"We depend on the private sector for electricity," Fatima Saed, a woman whose husband was detained in 2005 and has not been released yet, told IPS. "In my situation, to pay $50 a month [for electricity] is a disaster because I have to cut it from the quantity and quality of food that I buy for myself and my kids."

The Oxfam report also stated, "At the beginning of May 2007, the Central Office for Statistics and Information Technology, part of the Iraqi Ministry of Planning, released a survey highlighting the fact that 43% of Iraqis suffer from "absolute poverty". The poverty of many families "is rooted in unemployment, which affects probably more than 50% of the workforce".

Fallujah General Hospital, situated across the Euphrates River from the city, is still functioning, but with a minimal number of specialist doctors and medical supplies. The only doctor who would speak to IPS did not want his name published.

"The manager of this hospital is a good man and he is trying hard to improve the services, but the Ministry of Health in Baghdad still treats us here as a bunch of terrorists. We are suffering both corruption from the ministry and ignorance about al-Anbar province from this [Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki] administration," he explained. "We do not have enough medicines, and the equipment brought to us by contractors is still in boxes and seems to be part of the corrupt contracts of the province. It is impossible to work under such conditions."

People coming for treatment or surgery in the hospital appeared desperate to get their essential needs met.

"We have to buy cotton, bandages, medicines and all we need from private pharmacies," 35-year-old Muath Tahir, a teacher who had his appendix removed three days earlier, told IPS. "Those who can manage go to the private hospital for better treatment, but my $230 salary is not even enough for my daily needs. This city has become impossible to live in." "

no thanksgiving for these people. of course violence will go down if people can't move!

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 12:15am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 12:15am

Three years after a devastating United States-led siege of the city, residents of Fallujah continue to struggle with a shattered economy, infrastructure and lack of mobility. The city that was routed in November 2004 is still suffering the worst humanitarian conditions under a siege that continues. Although military actions are down to the minimum inside the city, local and US authorities do not seem to be thinking of ending the agonies of the over 400,000 residents of Fallujah.

Congratulations, FROSTY, you and the writer of that article managed to find a place in Iraq where, although after great effort it is perhaps becoming reasonably peaceful, it is not quite up to the economic standards of say, Toronto, which perhaps you visit on weekend shopping trips. The fact is that all of Iraq is pretty much a shithole compared to North America, FROSTY, and if you ever left the leafy precincts of your college campus you might discover that there are parts of the world that are actually quite unpleasant. Out in this 'real world' you will also discover people who are not nice at all, and with amazingly bad manners, and for these people, the U.S. often must use weapons that make loud noises and frequently cause personal injury, with nary a legal counselor in sight (unless John Edwards chooses to pontificate on the subject, of course).

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 07:30am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 12:15am

no thanksgiving for these people. of course violence will go down if people can't move!

Oh, and by the way, FROSTY, people in Iraq don't celebrate Thanksgiving, they're not Americans. In fact, no other country in the world celebrates Thanksgiving except America. Surely your Multicultural diversity celebration studies curriculum covered that?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 07:35am
Here's my most recent offering in my 'spirit of bipartisanship' series: an article in the Daily Mail which outlines another initiative that both of us, right and left, can support. Last week, we all agreed that the American people should be given as much exposure to the wit and wisdom of Dennis Kucinich as possible. This week, I would like to offer my support to the idea of sterilization for uber-lefty women who consider children to be an abomination and an insult to their God of Nature, Gaia.

Meet the women who won't have babies - because they're not eco friendly By NATASHA COURTENAY-SMITH and MORAG TURNER - More by this author » Last updated at 22:05pm on 21st November 2007

Comments Comments (30) Had Toni Vernelli gone ahead with her pregnancy ten years ago, she would know at first hand what it is like to cradle her own baby, to have a pair of innocent eyes gazing up at her with unconditional love, to feel a little hand slipping into hers - and a voice calling her Mummy.

But the very thought makes her shudder with horror.

Because when Toni terminated her pregnancy, she did so in the firm belief she was helping to save the planet.

Scroll down for more... Toni Vernelli

Desperate measures: Toni Vernelli was steralised at age 27 to reduce her carbon footprint

Incredibly, so determined was she that the terrible "mistake" of pregnancy should never happen again, that she begged the doctor who performed the abortion to sterilise her at the same time.

He refused, but Toni - who works for an environmental charity - "relentlessly hunted down a doctor who would perform the irreversible surgery.

Finally, eight years ago, Toni got her way.

At the age of 27 this young woman at the height of her reproductive years was sterilised to "protect the planet".

Incredibly, instead of mourning the loss of a family that never was, her boyfriend (now husband) presented her with a congratulations card.

While some might think it strange to celebrate the reversal of nature and denial of motherhood, Toni relishes her decision with an almost religious zeal.

"Having children is selfish. It's all about maintaining your genetic line at the expense of the planet," says Toni, 35.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 07:46am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 07:30am

this is nonsense.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 08:23am
In fact, no other country in the world celebrates Thanksgiving except America. Surely your Multicultural diversity celebration studies curriculum covered that?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 07:35am

more nonsense.

have some turkey, ponti [en.wikipedia.org]

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 08:25am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 07:46am

did you know that one kid in north america will use as many resources as 30 kids in india?

you've got a long way to go, ponti.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 08:29am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 07:30am

which perhaps you visit on weekend shopping trips..............

i don't shop ('cept for food).

The fact is that all of Iraq is pretty much a shithole...............

birthplace of civilization. how arrogant.

if you ever left the leafy precincts of your college campus.....................

what the f#$k? i wish i were in school.

that there are parts of the world that are actually quite unpleasant....................

gary, indiana?

Out in this 'real world' you will also discover people who are not nice at all, and with amazingly bad manners,..........................

i've got my computer for that.

Out in this 'real world' you will also discover people who are not nice at all, and with amazingly bad manners,..........................

sure. toting weapons that say "made in usa" (well, used to. now they say "made in china". have you started learning cantonese yet?)

the U.S. often must use weapons that make loud noises and frequently cause personal injury,..............

'specially if there's oil.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 08:44am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 08:44am

The fact is that all of Iraq is pretty much a shithole...............

birthplace of civilization. how arrogant.

So your reasoning is, the fact that Iraq is the birthplace of civilization means that it can't be a shithole today? Or were you just trying to imply that I didn't know that Mesopotamia was the cradle of civilization?

I think you're losing your ability to think logically, FROSTY. Have I hit a nerve?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 09:26am
I think you're losing your ability to think logically, FROSTY. Have I hit a nerve?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 09:26am

not at all.

have you ever lived there?

how do you define shithole?

most iraqis i know here would love to return to the "shithole" if they could.

hey, is mexico a shithole?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 09:30am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 09:30am

have you ever lived there?

No. Have you?

how do you define shithole?

Well, for example, in many places in Iraq, raw sewage runs in the streets. I can't precisely define shithole, but if I had to, that would be part of the definition, I think.

most iraqis i know here would love to return to the "shithole" if they could.

Yeah, so? That doesn't mean it's not a shithole by our standards. Really, FROSTY, you're a little out of sorts this morninig. Success of the surge getting you down?

hey, is mexico a shithole?

Certainly, many of the parts that I have seen are. Except for the north, which is getting modernized as a result of free trade.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 09:46am
He outed her as an analyst? Sorry, but that has the same National Security implications as outing my neighbor as a professor at a local university.

Posted by HOMERJELWOOD 11/22/2007 @ 2:13pm | ignore this person

So if outing Plame has no national security implications, why does the CIA insist on censoring her book? See fairgameplame.com. Apparently they believed that Plame had access to lots of "classified information." You still believe she was just a low level desk jockey? Think again if that is not asking too much.

Posted by OneVote at 11/23/2007 @ 09:48am
Certainly, many of the parts that I have seen are. Except for the north, which is getting modernized as a result of free trade.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 09:46am

you just have no idea, do you?

i lived in mexico for many years. if not having an outlet mall is your definition of a shithole, well then that's true. however, i found life there to be wonderful.

real people who care about real people.

why does the raw sewage run in the streets?

why?

do you think you can surge forever? wasn't the "surge" (what a stupid name. they should have called it OPERATION EXTENDED TOUR) supposed to bring about political reconciliation?

now, go shop. IT'S BLACK FRIDAY!

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 09:57am
oh, and "free trade" and neo-liberal nonsense is what is bringing more and more mexicans "back home" to texas, california, etc.,

creo que tendrás que aprender español ademas de chino.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 09:59am
The fact is that all of Iraq is pretty much a shithole compared to North America, FROSTY, and if you ever left the leafy precincts of your college campus you might discover that there are parts of the world that are actually quite unpleasant. Out in this 'real world' you will also discover people who are not nice at all, and with amazingly bad manners, and for these people, the U.S. often must use weapons that make loud noises and frequently cause personal injury, with nary a legal counselor in sight (unless John Edwards chooses to pontificate on the subject, of course).

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 07:30am | ignore this person

Are you talking pre US occupation or post? Is that why Paul Bremmer allowed looting of Iraq's national treasures from its museums? I'll bet Bremmer has some nice artifacts on his mantlepiece right now. But hey...its a fair trade huh Ponti....we left them US weapons caches so they could all destroy each other in the puppet masters creative chaos game. The US is but a blink of the eye on the time scale of civilization. I would say that the jury is still out on whether our short lived master civilization (as you espouse) will survive as we know it.

Posted by OneVote at 11/23/2007 @ 10:00am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 09:57am

i lived in mexico for many years. if not having an outlet mall is your definition of a shithole, well then that's true. however, i found life there to be wonderful.

Well, FROSTY, I'm sure that parts of Mexico are quite nice, even by our standards. But, like a lot of Blue states in this country, there's a small upper class and a huge service class. In the parts of the Yucatan Peninsula I saw, the streets were filthy dirty and inhabited by gangs of filthy dirty kids. I'm sure if you got out of the safe areas, you would have seen that too, and perhaps you might have even thought to yourself that it was a shithole.

real people who care about real people.

Do you really think in those kinds of slogans, or does your mind just regurgitate them at random?

why does the raw sewage run in the streets?

It was running in the streets before we got there, FROSTY. Believe it or not, life was really bad there even BEFORE America got there, if you can possibly imagine that. In fact, if you really want to stretch your imagination to the breaking point, you might want to consider that really bad things happen all over the world, and that America has absolutely nothing to do with them.

do you think you can surge forever?

Well, you and the terrorists better hope we can't!

wasn't the "surge" (what a stupid name. they should have called it OPERATION EXTENDED TOUR) supposed to bring about political reconciliation?

Political reconciliation cannot happen without security. The surge has brought greatly increased security. Now that people can worry less about survival, perhaps they can pay more attention to political reconciliation. Comprende?

now, go shop. IT'S BLACK FRIDAY!

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 10:46am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/22/2007 @ 11:09pm

You really are a fucking moron. It's good news in Iraq.

But, what is the guvt doing with it?

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/11/22/AR200711 2201568_2.html?nav=rss_print/asection

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/22/2007 @ 11:15pm

How is that list of democratic witch hunters coming? How about your secret evidence that contradicts the guvts stance that Plame was the head of a non-proliferation unit whose duty it was to find and track wmd's? How goes the defense of the liar libby, who obstructed the investigation into the unauthorized leaking of a covert CIA agents name to the media? Obstruction that you seem to think absolves anybody of responsibility for their actions.

Same question to you that LUVVY refuses to answer. After reading Plame employment status, how do you square that with your pseudo-patriotism?

And looky here little boy Ponti, here is another "surrender monkey" America Hater:

By Josh White

Washington Post Staff Writer

Thursday, November 22, 2007; Page A23

Retired Lt. Gen. Ricardo S. Sanchez, who commanded U.S. troops in Iraq from 2003 to 2004, is scheduled to speak on behalf of the Democratic Party this weekend in support of a House war funding bill that would require President Bush to bring the bulk of U.S. troops home from Iraq by the end of next year.

Sanchez, who has spoken out against the Bush administration's handling of the war and has assailed current war strategy as doomed to fail, plans to argue that the United States cannot win in Iraq with the military alone and that it is prudent to bring troops home to bolster national security.

...Sanchez says that recent improvements in security in Iraq "have not been matched by a willingness on the part of Iraqi leaders to make the hard choices necessary to bring peace their country." According to the prepared remarks, he plans to say that there is no evidence that the Iraqis will do so in the near future.

Sanchez also plans to argue that U.S. armed forces have been stretched thin by bad war policy and that the House war funding bill, which requires the redeployment of U.S. troops and other measures for the Pentagon to secure $50 billion in funding, is the appropriate approach. Sanchez is expected to say that the war has significantly hurt the military. The White House has threatened to veto any bill that attaches strings to the war funding.

according to a portion of Sanchez's speech released last night. "It will take the Army at least a decade to repair the damage done to its full spectrum readiness, which is at its lowest level since the Vietnam War. In the meantime, the ability of our military to fully execute our national security strategy will be called into doubt, producing what is, in my judgment, unacceptable strategic risk."

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 10:48am
PONTI, Chimpy did not go into Iraq to have it be what it was before he sent boys in (you, of course, will not go there, event though it is a fine place), he went in guns a-blazin' to make it a good place, free of terrorism and to establish a "liberal" democracy.

Fallujah is not some small town in Indiana, it is a major city that at one time had over 400,000 occupants. Not anymore. You should go visit on a tourist visa and then get back to us.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:00am
Ahh, remember when the neo-cons poo-pooed the very idea of trying to work with the insurgents? Now many of them are being paid with Ponti's tax dollars.

In addition to the extended deployment strateegery, we also have:

Mugtatda has declared a cease fire to consolidate his power base.

Iran is attempting to quell the arms coming from that country.

The sectarian division has been "successful", ridding some communities of either Sunni or Shia. The much ballyhooed return of Iraqis is hitting the reality that many returning can not go back to their own homes. What tremendous "progress" that is.

Success in the neo-con mind is registered in micro amounts.

March 14, 2007 According to recent reports published by the United Nations Children's Fund (UNICEF) and the British-based charity organization Medact, the 2003 invasion and ongoing occupation has led to the deterioration of health conditions, including malnutrition, rise in vaccine-preventable diseases and mortality rates for children under five. Iraq's mortality rate for children under five rose from 5 percent in 1990 to 12.5 percent in 2004.1 Similar to the humanitarian crisis during the sanctions period, women suffer particularly as they are often the last ones to eat after feeding their children and husbands. They often watch powerlessly as their often sick and malnourished children do not obtain adequate health care.

Not only students, but women of all ages and walks of life are nowadays forced to comply to certain dress codes and well as restrict their movement. Suad F., a former accountant and mother of four children who lives in a Baghdad neighborhood that used to be relatively mixed before the sectarian killings in 2005 and 2006 was telling me during a visit to Amman in 2006: "I resisted for a long time, but last year I started wearing hijab, after I was threatened by several Islamist militants in front of my house. They are terrorizing the whole neighborhood, behaving as if they were in charge. And they are actually controlling the area. No one dares to challenge them. A few months ago they distributed leaflets around the area warning people to obey them and demanding that women should stay at home."

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:11am
By JAMES GLANZ

Published: October 19, 2007

BAGHDAD, Oct. 18 -- Attempts by American-led reconstruction teams to forge political reconciliation, foster economic growth and build an effective police force and court system in Iraq have failed to show significant progress in nearly every one of the nation's provincial regions and in the capital, a federal oversight agency reported on Thursday.

The report, by the Office of the Special Inspector General for Iraq Reconstruction, comes as the United States tries to take advantage of a drop in overall violence to create a functioning government here.

The release of the report was linked to testimony on Thursday by the special inspector general, Stuart W. Bowen Jr., before the Oversight and Investigations Subcommittee of the House Armed Services Committee.

There are bright spots in the effort to put together a functioning nation, Mr. Bowen found: economic growth in the Kurdish north; tribal reconciliation in the western desert province of Anbar; and patchy progress in the development of local governments. Beyond that, some of the provinces are showing increasing ability to create plans, write contracts and carry out construction projects to rebuild Iraq's physical infrastructure, the report says.

A central finding of the report, Mr. Bowen said in his testimony, was that even with 32 of the teams, called provincial reconstruction teams, or P.R.T.'s, now deployed around the countryat a cost of $1.9 billion as of August, the program still has not developed concrete methods to measure the effects of the teams on progress in the country.

...Dividing the country into five regions in order to assess problems and progress, the report gave, at best, mixed grades to all five.

In the northern provinces, the report found, "efforts have failed to significantly influence sectarian and tribal leaders to address the issue of reconciliation." Uncertainty over the fate of the oil-rich city of Kirkuk, which at some point must decide whether or not to join the semiautonomous provinces in the far north, "is casting a shadow over the region," the report found.

In the center, where Baghdad is located, local institutions are taking over functions once carried out by United States officials. But getting Iraqis to take responsibility for maintaining facilities built by the United States, like water treatment plants or office buildings, "remains a significant challenge," the report found.

In the province of Diyala, just to the east of Baghdad, there have been moves toward reconciliation, "but it will take years to overcome ill will between tribes."

The provinces just to the south of Baghdad are "economically stagnant" and in the southern provincial capital of Basra, the small- and medium-size businesses that flourished before the 2003 invasion have since withered.

"Efforts to restart them are stymied by a lack of skill or interest," the report found.

Even in Anbar, where the tribes have joined with the United States to fight militants associated with Al Qaeda in Mesopotamia, a homegrown Sunni extremist group that American intelligence agencies say is foreign-led, a lack of fuel and reliable electricity is hindering economic development, the report found.

But, the FLOGICALLY challenged will look at a 1-1/2 month period out of 4 1/2 years and claim VICTORY!

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:19am
Meanwhile, party stores and gas stations around me are being bought by more and more Iraqi exiles. It is great that they are partaking in the American Dream, but shouldn't they be returning to Iraq 4 1/2 years after Saddam was thrown from power? After all, PONTI assures us that is a safe enviroment. More disconcerting to me is that many of our so-called patriot locals will not shop at these stores now because of the "towel heads" that now own the stores. These same "patriots" are all gung-ho for the war, but are afraid of the people they "liberated".

Chickenhawks in sheeps clothing.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:26am
I'm sure if you got out of the safe areas, you would have seen that too, and perhaps you might have even thought to yourself that it was a shithole.

by pontiflogic.

dude, you just have no idea. i lived in places where your arrogant "aesthetic" wouldn't have let you set foot. yet life was great.

real people.

"Well, you and the terrorists better hope we can't!"

Do you really think in those kinds of slogans, or does your mind just regurgitate them at random?

oooh, here come the terrorists. your kids have a better chance of being shot at school than being killed by a terrorist.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 11:26am
Now many of them are being paid with Ponti's tax dollars.

by crabwalk.

actually, those will be his kids and grandkids and greatgrandkids (unfortunately yours, too).

just ask the chinese.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 11:27am
Do you really think in those kinds of slogans, or does your mind just regurgitate them at random?

thats the way he thinks, propaganda slogans from the Chimpy McFlightsuit Ministry of Information.

It does not matter that the heads of the military say waterboarding is torture, Chimpy says not.

It does not matter that the head of the CIA says Plame was covert, some one somewhere said she was not.

It does not matter that retired generals take exception with The Plan, chimpy says it is a good Plan.

It does not matter that retired career military leaders say the military is broken, Chimpy says it is all OK.

Reality vs Theory.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:29am
Sick fucks!!

I thought we had "killed or captured" all of these scumbags? I guess it is just like Indiana.

By STEPHEN FARRELL

Published: November 24, 2007

BAGHDAD, Nov. 23 -- At least 13 people were killed and more than 50 wounded by a bomb at a crowded pet market in central Baghdad today, the deadliest attack in the capital for weeks.

Another stall holder, Wasfi Adid, 47, blamed the security forces.

"In the early morning the market was swarming with people," he said. "I can't blame anyone but there are no security procedures inside the market, there is no searching in the market, there are only two or three police cars.

"Police must search everyone who carries a carton or a box. There are not enough policemen, there is no government over here, they should spread policemen around here and there and everywhere in the market."

Some said that despite the optimism of recent weeks, they were not surprised by such reverses.

"We expected such a thing to happen despite the security improvement that has been achieved," said Ali Kadhum, 34, a government employee.

"Three months ago, the situation was calm until a bomb attack occurred," he said. "I don't think the situation is moving toward the better. There is no security as long as there are occupation forces."

In more violence today in Iraq, further north in Mosul, a car bomber attacked an Iraqi police checkpoint in the Methaq neighborhood, killing five people, including two policemen.

When you goin' PONTI?

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 11:34am
"There is no security as long as there are occupation forces." -- Ali Kadhum

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 11:40am
Posted by CRABWALK 11/23/2007 @ 10:48am

How about your secret evidence that contradicts the guvts stance that Plame was the head of a non-proliferation unit whose duty it was to find and track wmd's?

Phew, CRABBIE, are YOU confused. I thought you said she was a covert agent. Now she's something else? What point exactly is it that you're trying to make?

How goes the defense of the liar libby, who obstructed the investigation into the unauthorized leaking of a covert CIA agents name to the media? Obstruction that you seem to think absolves anybody of responsibility for their actions.

He wasn't found guilty of obstruction. He was found guilty of making misstatements under oath, exactly the same as President Clinton was. The big difference being, of course, that Libby was sentenced to jail, and Clinton didn't even lose his office (under which authority other people are sentenced to jail terms for the same offense he committed, but I digress). The 'obstruction' charge is your own unsubstantiated surmise, just as a lot of your 'facts' tend to be, with little indication that you can tell the difference.

By the way, what do you think Clinton was hiding?

Same question to you that LUVVY refuses to answer. After reading Plame employment status, how do you square that with your pseudo-patriotism?

Sorry, you're getting even a little more obscure here than usual, must be the hysteria.

And looky here little boy Ponti, here is another "surrender monkey" America Hater:

Funny how you only quote those that agree with you; this is pretty much the SOP for you. You dig and dig and find someone who agrees with your opinion, then you proudly present it to us all as thereby established fact. It's not surprising that you found SOMEONE to agree with SOMETHING you believe. What's surprising is that you think that it proves anything.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 11:56am
Posted by CRABWALK 11/23/2007 @ 11:19am

In the center, where Baghdad is located, local institutions are taking over functions once carried out by United States officials. But getting Iraqis to take responsibility for maintaining facilities built by the United States, like water treatment plants or office buildings, "remains a significant challenge," the report found.

QUAGMIRE!!! QUAGMIRE!!! BAGAWWWWKKKK!!!! QUAGMIRE!!!

Change 'Baghdad' to 'Washington DC' and 'Iraqis' to 'Democrats' and you could just as easily be talking about the DC Public School System.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 12:02pm
When you goin' PONTI?

Posted by CRABWALK 11/23/2007 @ 11:34am

hey there, madame walk. (i sure hope you's female, if not mr. walk)

don't be so cruel.

the least you could do is hammer him out a suit of armour [cartoonstock.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 12:30pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 12:02pm

to quote your hero:

I think that the proposition of going to Baghdad is also fallacious. I think if we we're going to remove Saddam Hussein we would have had to go all the way to Baghdad, we would have to commit a lot of force because I do not believe he would wait in the Presidential Palace for us to arrive. I think we'd have had to hunt him down. And once we'd done that and we'd gotten rid of Saddam Hussein and his government, then we'd have had to put another government in its place. What kind of government? Should it be a Sunni government or Shi'i government or a Kurdish government or Ba'athist regime? Or maybe we want to bring in some of the Islamic fundamentalists? How long would we have had to stay in Baghdad to keep that government in place? What would happen to the government once U.S. forces withdrew? How many casualties should the United States accept in that effort to try to create clarity and stability in a situation that is inherently unstable? I think it is vitally important for a President to know when to use military force. I think it is also very important for him to know when not to commit U.S. military force. And it's my view that the President got it right both times, that it would have been a mistake for us to get bogged down in the quagmire inside Iraq.

At the Washington Institute's Soref Symposium, April 29, 1991 [5]

And the question in my mind is how many additional American casualties is Saddam worth? And the answer is not very damned many. So I think we got it right, both when we decided to expel him from Kuwait, but also when the president made the decision that we'd achieved our objectives and we were not going to go get bogged down in the problems of trying to take over and govern Iraq.... Once we had rounded him up and gotten rid of his government, then the question is what do you put in its place? You know, you then have accepted the responsibility for governing Iraq.

August 1992, at the Discovery Institute in Seattle

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 12:42pm
300,000 more neocons identified in Iraq! The Vast Right Wing Conspiracy continues to expand!!

Shiites in S. Iraq Rebuke Tehran Petition Calls for U.N. Probe Into Iran's Influence, Sheiks Say

By Amit R. Paley and Sudarsan Raghavan Washington Post Foreign Service Thursday, November 22, 2007; Page A25

BAGHDAD, Nov. 21 -- More than 300,000 Shiite Muslims from southern Iraq have signed a petition condemning Iran for fomenting violence in Iraq, according to a group of sheiks leading the campaign.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 12:52pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 12:42pm

August 1992, at the Discovery Institute in Seattle

Hey FROSTY. Was August 1992 BEFORE, or AFTER 9/11/2001?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 12:54pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 12:42pm

FROSTY, you DO recall what happened 9/11/2001, and how it pretty significantly changed US policy towards some countries? You folks in Canada get newspapers, don't you?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 12:57pm
In the center, where Baghdad is located, local institutions are taking over functions once carried out by United States officials. But getting Iraqis to take responsibility for maintaining facilities built by the United States, like water treatment plants or office buildings, "remains a significant challenge," the report found.

QUAGMIRE!!! QUAGMIRE!!! BAGAWWWWKKKK!!!! QUAGMIRE!!!

Change 'Baghdad' to 'Washington DC' and 'Iraqis' to 'Democrats' and you could just as easily be talking about the DC Public School System.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 12:02pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/10/18/world/middleeast/18grid.html?n=Top/Ref erence/Times%20Topics/People/S/Sadr,%20Moktada%20Al-

BAGHDAD, Oct. 17 -- Iraq has agreed to award $1.1 billion in contracts to Iranian and Chinese companies to build a pair of enormous power plants, the Iraqi electricity minister said Tuesday.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:03pm
FROSTY, you DO recall what happened 9/11/2001, and how it pretty significantly changed US policy towards some countries? You folks in Canada get newspapers, don't you?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 12:57pm

so tell me, WHAT ON EARTH DOES IRAQ HAVE TO DO WITH 9/11?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:04pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 1:04pm

so tell me, WHAT ON EARTH DOES IRAQ HAVE TO DO WITH 9/11?

Bush gave an awful lot of speeches on that subject, did you miss them all? Or were you not listening? Sure, parts of that argument had to do with the widely accepted belief that Iraq had WMD's in its possession, which has not been completely borne out by events, but that was only part of the reason for the invasion. Perhaps you should go back and do a little remedial reading?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 1:22pm
Charles Krauthammer explains the left's thought processes:

November 23, 2007 On Iraq, a State of Denial By Charles Krauthammer

It does not have the drama of the Inchon landing or the sweep of the Union comeback in the summer of 1864. But the turnabout of American fortunes in Iraq over the past several months is of equal moment -- a war seemingly lost, now winnable. The violence in Iraq has been dramatically reduced. Political allegiances have been radically reversed. The revival of ordinary life in many cities is palpable. Something important is happening.

And what is the reaction of the war critics? Nancy Pelosi stoutly maintains her state of denial, saying this about the war just two weeks ago: "This is not working. . . . We must reverse it." A euphemism for "abandon the field," which is what every Democratic presidential candidate is promising, with variations only in how precipitous to make the retreat.

How do they avoid acknowledging the realities on the ground? By asserting that we have not achieved political benchmarks -- mostly legislative actions by the Baghdad government -- that were set months ago. And that these benchmarks are paramount. And that all the current progress is ultimately vitiated by the absence of centrally legislated national reconciliation.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 1:25pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 1:22pm

and now, from the aptly named "crime of the century", a supertrampish tribute to thee:

Dreamer, you know you are a dreamer

Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!

I said dreamer, you're nothing but a dreamer

Well can you put your hands in your head, oh no!

I said "Far out, - What a day, a year, a laugh it is!"

You know, - Well you know you had it comin' to you,

Now there's not a lot I can do"

now, ask yourself "why did 9/11 happen?"

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:29pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 1:29pm

now, ask yourself "why did 9/11 happen?"

Hmmmm...let's see. I'm going to go out on a limb here, and say you think IT WAS ALL OUR FAULT?

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 1:35pm
ponti, maybe this is why i'm skeptical:

"A treasure trove of guerrilla documents, according to the NYT, shows that 41% of the foreign jihadis in Iraq come from Saudi Arabia, which is also a major source of funding for them. Another big group comes from Libya, with Yemenis the third largest cohort.

There were none from Lebanon, despite constant US accusations of Hizbullah involvement.

Of the some 25,000 alleged insurgents in US custody in Iraq,

only 390 are foreigners.

4/5s of the Iraqis and nearly all the foreigners are Sunni Arabs.

(The US appears to have never captured a Shiite Iranian fighter in Iraq.)

The statistics raise the question of why US military officials are always focusing on Iran and Hizbullah so much,

when they clearly are not very much of the problem, while never, ever, mentioning the Saudi issue. The Guardian has more."

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:35pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 1:35pm

not at all.

just hoping you'd spend some time thinking about it.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:37pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 1:35pm

The Guardian says we've never captured Shiite Iranian fighters in Iraq? I've seen several news reports where we've captured actuall Iranian Revolutionary Guards in Iraq, so that sounds pretty dubious.

Secondly, we all know that Saudi Arabia is a big part of the problem. But not every problem can be solved militarily, nor is it best solved that way.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 1:41pm
and just to be clear (for the 7,342,879th time)

9/11 was a horrible, horrible event.

killing in the name of anything is abhorrent.

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:46pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 1:41pm

glub, glub, glub.

gettin' high off that oil, ponti?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/23/2007 @ 1:47pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/23/2007 @ 1:47pm

gettin' high off that oil, ponti?

Yes, of course we all know that oil is a part of the political mix in the ME. But the hijackers didn't come from Somalia or the Sudan, you know.

Posted by pontificus at 11/23/2007 @ 1:54pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 11:56am

Gee, PONTI, I thought we were supposed to listen to the troops. Yes, I can find a lot of people that agree with me. Regardless of who they are, retired military, republicans, former republicans, think tank gurus, you never seem to accept anybodies analysis except that of ChimpCo.

How about your secret evidence that contradicts the guvts stance that Plame was the head of a non-proliferation unit whose duty it was to find and track wmd's?

Phew, CRABBIE, are YOU confused. I thought you said she was a covert agent. Now she's something else? What point exactly is it that you're trying to make?

Never changed anything. But, you continue to be about the stupidest person I ever deal with. how about you actually read the unclassified employment status supplied by the US guvt, then get back to me? See, it says she was a covert head of a non-proliferation team. Too confusing for you?

Twist and shout Ponti, Twist and shout.

Still waiting for you to back up your claim of witch hunts, or admit you were incorrect about that.Or, are too much of a little man to admit you were wrong?

PONTIFLOGIC, crap with feet.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 3:09pm
PONTIFLOGIC, Explain to us again the connection between 9/11 and Iraq. I guess I missed Chimpies fact filled speeches.

And explain the increase in Islamic Jihadist terrorism since March, 2003.

And still waiting to read why you are not in Iraq, as well. Why are you not establishing a growing business in the peaceful city of Faluujah?

Or, would you like to make more claims that nobody else celebrates Thanksgiving? Or that there was a democratic witch hunt, or that Valerie Plame was just like a janitor, or that Saddam had stockpiles of wmd's and ties to Usama Bin Laden, or that the war is won, or that the majority of insurgents in Iraq are foreign?

Please, read this and then tell us what you think her job and status was.

http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/sections/news/070529_Unclassified_P lame_employement.pdf

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 3:29pm
Yes, of course we all know that oil is a part of the political mix in the ME. But the hijackers didn't come from Somalia or the Sudan, you know.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/23/2007 @ 1:54pm

they came from Iraq, didn't they?

Hey, PONTI, how goes the democratization of Kuwait? Remember Kuwait, the place that we liberated so they could become a ME democracy and point the way forwards for all the other ME monarchies and dictatorships?

Yep, that democratization process is working wonderful.

I won't steal your thunder, I will let you list all of the functioning ME democracies that have come into being since 1991. Wow us with your knowledge.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 3:52pm
And please explain to me why you think the general you supported during the Abu Graib debacle is a "surrender monkey".

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 3:53pm
Here is some good news:

The U.S. military and prosecutors have launched 83 criminal investigations into alleged contract fraud, including a total of $15 million in bribes.

...It shows the flaws in the U.S. system of bids between private contractors and the U.S. military officers who doled out billions of dollars in contracts since 2003, often with little oversight.

Kuwait's close-knit expatriate community also played a role, in a place where business is traditionally done away from the glare of public scrutiny.

"Bribery and kickbacks are common with big projects," said Ali al-Nemash of the Kuwait Transparency Society, a private organization that seeks to combat graft and corruption. "They call it 'gifts,' but it is bribery."

Teams of U.S. investigators are reviewing a sample of about 6,000 U.S. military contracts worth $2.8 billion that were awarded by a single Army office at Camp Arifjan, a huge logistics and supply base about 40 miles south of the Laila Tower.

....The biggest bribery case brought so far involves Maj. John Cockerham, a former Army contracting officer, his wife and sister. They have been charged in U.S. federal court with receiving $9.6 million in bribes from companies seeking contracts to provide bottled water and other supplies.

Maybe PONTI would like to also claim that nobody with ties to Bush has made a dime off the war?

Nobody named Uncle Bucky, or Neil Bush.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/23/2007 @ 3:58pm
From today's AP headlines:"Aides choose royalties over loyalties",

IMHO, this is a classic and simply odious back-pedalling by the publisher of the forthcoming Scott McClellan book, whose pre-pub-release teaser excerpt late last week caused a brief flurry of headlines before it got buried by news top stories about Natalie Holloway, Baby Madeline and oh, the latest dreadful mothering tales of Britney.

Hmm.. news about our "Liar, liar, pants on fire" leaders is not news, apparently. Wondering what sort of phone calls Osnos and his family members received from area codes 202 and 757. Any guess that those calls weren't friendly wishes of 'Happy Thanksgiving?'

From the AP item: " After the excerpt caused buzz on Capitol Hill, McClellan's editor offered a clarification suggesting the former press secretary wasn't modeling himself after Speakes or Stephanopoulos. Public Affairs Books editor Peter Osnos said McClellan didn't think Bush deceived anyone. Rather, Osnos said, Bush himself was misled by White House aides."

"He's not suggesting the president himself had lied," Osnos said, adding, "Scott's not a guy who's pursuing any sort of agenda or being vindictive."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071123/ap_on_go_pr_wh/press_secretary_books _11;_ylt=AuJLTL4oMUKBNEDb3mQSqQUE1vAI

If the above link doesn't work, look for the AP headline: "Aides choose royalties over loyalties" or look here: http://tinyurl.com/2vb85c (thanks Bob!)

-ALRQuak7

Posted by ALRQuak7 at 11/23/2007 @ 4:36pm
Don't forget about the other folks that have walked away from ChimpCo with bad tastes in their mouths. David Kuo told us how ChimpCO used the American Taliban and then dropped them like bad religious doctrine, and Christine Todd Whitman told us how screwed up ChimpCO is. The former treasury secretary O'Neal left quickly when he learned how things were going to run, centralized guvt run by theory, not reality and how Chimpy was determined to invade Iraq from day one of his failed administration.

America Haters all.

Posted by crabwalk at 11/24/2007 @ 09:11am
Posted by CRABWALK 11/23/2007 @ 3:58pm

Maybe PONTI would like to also claim that nobody with ties to Bush has made a dime off the war? Nobody named Uncle Bucky, or Neil Bush.

CRABBIE, even given your wild-eyed hysterical ravings regarding the workings of the world in general, your fascination with this Unocal/Taliban connection seems a little more bizarre than usual. Private companies can and do frequently strike deals with the most nefarious regimes in the world. I believe it is one of the frequently cited tenets of the left that private enterprise has no business influencing ANYTHING in the political sphere, but typically of you this principle seems to have been waived at the earliest convenience when it comes to 'proving' some specious point or reinforcing some bit of random paranoia. If I'm not mistaken, there was never any deal done between the Taliban and Unocal anyway, even if there was some talk at some point. I'm at a loss as to what you think this proves.

Secondly, I take it now by your most recent ravings that you've backed off the frequently stated, but never substantiated gospel of the left that Bush and Cheney got rich off the war, and now it's just their 'friends' and 'relatives'. Again, alas, you offer little substantiation for this, other than citing the well-known fact that Bush's and Cheney's families and friends have ties to the oil industry, and that business is frequently good for both of them. I suppose it does little to point out that your favorite dictator-in-waiting in Venezuela stands to do far better in oil than either of these two guys or their friends or families.

But logic never does make inroads against paranoia.

Posted by pontificus at 11/25/2007 @ 11:35am
Posted by CRABWALK 11/23/2007 @ 3:52pm

I won't steal your thunder, I will let you list all of the functioning ME democracies that have come into being since 1991. Wow us with your knowledge.

How many were there BEFORE we came? One, I believe, in Israel.

And of course, I note your use of the weasel word 'functional' when it comes to qualifying 'democracy'. All the better to fit it with wheels, when needed, to move goalposts, as you folks are doing with regard to defining 'success' in Iraq. Of course, the only countries in the ME that have anything like 'functioning' democracies are in Iraq and Afghanistan, but of course your weasel wording will always give you an out because at your sole discretion they are not describable now, nor will they ever be, 'functional'.

Posted by pontificus at 11/25/2007 @ 11:42am
How many were there BEFORE we came? One, I believe, in Israel.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/25/2007 @ 11:42am

it's going back but,

how about IRAN in 1953?

what happened to that one?

Posted by frosty zoom at 11/25/2007 @ 12:25pm
AND WE STILL IGNORE THE MOHAMED NOOR KHAN EXPOSURE. One of the least discussed breaches of national security has been the exposure, by Condi Rice, of Mohamed Noor Khan as an intelligence asset being used against Al Qaeda.He was an aide to Bin Laden, in custody in Pakistan, and in communication with terror cells in the US, Spain, the UK and France. His identity was released to the press by the Secretary of State resulting in the total loss of his usefulness.

Posted by EdEKit at 11/25/2007 @ 2:56pm