The Beat

Norman Mailer: He Went Down Swinging

posted by John Nichols on 11/10/2007 @ 10:25am

There is much, much to be said of Norman Mailer, Pulitzer Prize-winning author and world-class rabble-rouser who died Saturday at age 84.

But the pugilistic pensman would perhaps be most pleased to have it known that he went down swinging. The chronicler of our politics and protests in the 1960s with two of the era's definitional books--1968's Armies of the Night and Miami and the Siege of Chicago, did not rest on the laurels--and they were legion--earned for exposing the dark undersides of the presidencies of Lyndon Johnson and Richard Nixon.

He went after George Bush with a fury, and a precision, that was born of his faith that all politicians--including 1969 New York City mayoral candidate Norman Mailer - had to be viewed skeptically. And, when found to be lacking, had to be dealt with using all tools available to a writer who had pocketed two Pulitzers, a National Book Award, a George Polk Award, a Medal for Distinguished Contribution to American Letters from the National Book Foundation and a global prominence rarely accorded the pushers of pens.

Mailer did not hesitate to suggest that Bush and his compatriots were setting up "a pre-fascistic atmosphere in America" and he saw the war in Iraq as an imperialistic endeavor destined--as all such attempts are--to diminish democracy at home.

"Iraq is the excuse for moving in an imperial direction," Mailer wrote on the eve of the conflict. "War with Iraq, as they originally conceived it, would be a quick, dramatic step that would enable them to control the Near East as a powerful base -- not least because of the oil there, as well as the water supplies from the Tigris and Euphrates rivers--to build a world empire."

Mailer recognized in the president's schoolboy militarism the most dangerous of instincts. So it was that, when Bush made his 2003 appearance in flight-suit drag before a sign declaring "Mission Accomplished" as part of the first--though certainly not the last--celebration of the fantasy of "victory" in Iraq, Mailer responded with a critique that remains the most damning assessment of a president who has known more than his share of damnation.

"Democracy, more than any other political system, depends on a modicum of honesty. Ultimately, it is much at the mercy of a leader who has never been embarrassed by himself," Mailer, who as a young Harvard graduate had served in the South Pacific during World War II, wrote of Bush at the close of a brilliant piece for The New York Review of Books. "What is to be said of a man who spent two years in the Air Force of the National Guard (as a way of not having to go to Vietnam) and proceeded--like many another spoiled and wealthy father's son--not to bother to show up for duty in his second year of service? Most of us have episodes in our youth that can cause us shame on reflection. It is a mark of maturation that we do not try to profit from our early lacks and vices but do our best to learn from them. Bush proceeded, however, to turn his declaration of the Iraqi campaign's end into a mighty fashion show. He chose--this overnight clone of Honest Abe--to arrive on the deck of the aircraft carrier Abraham Lincoln on an S-3B Viking jet that came in with a dramatic tail-hook landing. The carrier was easily within helicopter range of San Diego but G.W. would not have been able to show himself in flight regalia, and so would not have been able to demonstrate how well he wore the uniform he had not honored. Jack Kennedy, a war hero, was always in civvies while he was commander in chief. So was General Eisenhower. George W. Bush, who might, if he had been entirely on his own, have made a world-class male model (since he never takes an awkward photograph), proceeded to tote the flight helmet and sport the flight suit. There he was for the photo-op looking like one more great guy among the great guys. Let us hope that our democracy will survive these nonstop foulings of the nest."

Mailer would continue protesting the foulings of the nest, on the streets of New York during the 2004 Republican National Coronation and with a pugilistic pen that pummeled the empire builders and their lesser stooges--asking pointedly in final years that paralleled Bush's "Patriot Acts" and an endless "war on terror": "What does it profit us if we gain extreme security and lose our democracy?"--until it was finally laid to rest on Saturday.

Comments (98)

  1. There are people in this country who have the right balance of intellectual capacity and common sense and can see through the hype, the spin, the hypocrisy, and the lies that have taken over the nation's news and political discourse. Unfortunately, Norman Mailer was one of them, and there aren't any new ones being born.

    Posted by sdlcman at 11/10/2007 @ 11:10am

  2. "Norman Mailer was one of them, and there aren't any new ones being born." Yes, of course, there are new little beings being born that will be able to discern lies from truth! True, Mr. Mailer is one in a million (I won't believe he is really gone because he remains close in spirit to so many around the world) and I believe he has taught many of us critical thinking and the courage to tell-it-like-it-is by modeling just how to do it. If only all of us could be so articulate!! Certainly John Nichols has offered us a beautifully written remembrance. And you and others joining The Nation blogs are able to see through the hypocrisy and lies, we just have to keep on keepin' on! Take Courage, to honor Mr. Mailer's memory!

    Posted by asproula at 11/10/2007 @ 11:31am

  3. Second wife (of six) Adele Morales might have a different view on ol' Norm.

    Posted by Mask at 11/10/2007 @ 1:53pm

  4. Thanks for the uplifting and inspiring requiem, John.

    And I also thank you again for taking a leading role on the singularly critical issue of protecting the vocal chords of democracy.

    Most readers of The Nation are keenly aware of the importance that the free and healthy exchange of information --especially that which pertains to the deeper and often purposely well-hidden functions within the bowels of the body politic-- has in sustaining the life of a society that announces to the world that liberty and justice are for all.

    We are also no doubt aware that, in an age of sophisticated propaganda techniques, the danger always exists for a subtle slide into an atrophied state when the oxygen of openly shared information and debate is shunted by dark surgeons in the political night.

    Unfortunately the readers here represent a relatively small percentage of the overall American body mass --and it is large.

    So we all must share the task of doing our part to send out signals to the wider network especially in times of distress.

    I would also strongly encourage the renewed effort to organize the broad spectrum --right to left-- of politically oriented publications, into a more unified voice to send up a resonant message that the ongoing smothering of the fourth estate must be halted immediately. Like an EMT at the site of a crash, we must first start the breathing.

    Another excerpt from the recent powerhouse speech delivered last summer in Chicago by John Pilger:

    So I thought I would talk today about journalism, about war, propaganda, and silence, and how that silence might be broken. Edward Bernays, the so-called father of public relations, wrote about an invisible government that is the true ruling power of our country. He was referring to journalism, the media. That was almost eighty years ago, not long after corporate journalism was invented. It is a history few journalists talk about or know about, and it began with the arrival of corporate advertising. As the new corporations began taking over the press, something called "professional journalism" was invented. To attract big advertisers, the new corporate press had to appear respectable, pillars of the establishment--objective, impartial, balanced. The first schools of journalism were set up, and a mythology of liberal neutrality was spun around the professional journalist. The right to freedom of expression was associated with the new media and with the great corporations, and the whole thing was, as Robert McChesney put it so well, "entirely bogus."

    For what the public did not know was that in order to be professional, journalists had to ensure that news and opinion were dominated by official sources, and that has not changed. Go through the New York Times on any day, and check the sources of the main political stories--domestic and foreign--you'll find they're dominated by government and other established interests. That is the essence of professional journalism. I am not suggesting that independent journalism was or is excluded, but it is more likely to be an honorable exception. Think of the role Judith Miller played in the New York Times in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. Yes, her work became a scandal, but only after it played a powerful role in promoting an invasion based on lies. Yet, Miller's parroting of official sources and vested interests was not all that different from the work of many famous Times reporters, such as the celebrated W. H. Lawrence, who helped cover up the true effects of the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima in August 1945. "No radioactivity in Hiroshima ruin," was the headline on his report, and it was false.

    Consider how the power of this invisible government has grown. In 1983 the principal global media were owned by fifty corporations, most of them American. In 2002, this had fallen to just nine corporations. Today, it is probably about five. Rupert Murdoch has predicted that there will be just three global media giants, and his company will be one of them. This concentration of power is not exclusive of course to the United States. The BBC has announced it is expanding its broadcasts to the United States, because it believes Americans want principled, objective, neutral journalism for which the BBC is famous. They have launched BBC America. You may have seen the advertising.

    The BBC began in 1922, just before the corporate press began in America. Its founder was Lord John Reith, who believed that impartiality and objectivity were the essence of professionalism. In the same year the British establishment was under siege. The unions had called a general strike and the Tories were terrified that a revolution was on the way. The new BBC came to their rescue. In high secrecy, Lord Reith wrote anti-union speeches for the Tory prime minister Stanley Baldwin and broadcast them to the nation, while refusing to allow the labor leaders to put out their side until the strike was over. So, a pattern was set. Impartiality was a principle certainly: a principle to be suspended whenever the establishment was under threat. And that principle has been upheld ever since.

    Full text [isreview.org]

    Also, for a fascinating cinematic view of the age of propaganda check out the Adam Curtis documentary "The Century of the Self" online. I couldn't get a link to work currently, but it should be found in streaming video with a little googling (if it hasn't been attacked by sensors).

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/10/2007 @ 2:27pm

  5. here's to ya, norm...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 2:46pm

  6. Another fireball from the flaming economic front:

    "The average working stiff doesn't put any stock in Bernanke's palavering. He sees what's going on for himself every time he pulls up to the gas pump or goes the grocery store. He doesn't need the University of Michigan to tell him he's getting screwed; he knows it! The economy is sinking, inflation is skyrocketing, and the country is adrift. Every farthing in the public till has been shoveled into a black hole in the Middle East. Does Bernanke really think working people don't know that? Everyone knows that. Everyone knows the economy is on life-support; just like everyone knows the country is collapsing from mismanagement. Even the flag-waving, war-mongering maniacs on the Wall Street Journal's op-ed page are starting to shutter from the avalanche of bad news. They see what's going on and they're scared---scared sh**less....."

    ~Mike Whitney at Counterpunch

    Doesn't seem to bother the small cabal of neoclutz ass-clowns that frequent this watering hole. I suppose it'll take the lightning strike of a crocodilian market crash to pump some adrenaline into these bewildered beasts.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/10/2007 @ 3:30pm

  7. Hilarious and heartwarming Gore Vidal quote regarding Mailer:

    "Mailer is forever shouting at us that he is about to tell us something we must know or has just told us something revelatory and we failed to hear him or that he will, God grant his poor abused brain and body just one more chance, get through to us so that we will know. Each time he speaks he must become more bold, more loud, put on brighter motley and shake more foolish bells. Yet of all my contemporaries I retain the greatest affection for Norman as a force and as an artist. He is a man whose faults, though many, add to rather than subtract from the sum of his natural achievements."

    ~from NY Times today

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/10/2007 @ 4:30pm

  8. Posted by B_KOOL_66 11/10/2007 @ 3:30pm

    I suppose it'll take the lightning strike of a crocodilian market crash to pump some adrenaline into these bewildered beasts.

    I don't see how you blame this housing-market driven market correction on Bush any more than you blame the internet bubble correction on Clinton. Please elaborate.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/10/2007 @ 4:42pm

  9. Posted by MASK 11/10/2007 @ 1:53pm

    Unlike the right, the left is willing to canonize its saints with their warts exposed.

    I don't recall even a hint out of the MSM that Saint Ron might have had feet of clay during his national transmogrification from B-movie actor and sleepwalking script reader to an exalted and perpetual squatter atop the summit of Rushmore.

    Posted by canaar at 11/10/2007 @ 6:47pm

  10. Posted by B_KOOL_66 11/10/2007 @ 2:27pm

    Oh what sound judgment John Pilger, that Australian Journalist, displays as he ponces around the world supporting dictator after nascent dictator. The following typical Pilger headline and action is a measure of the poor political judgment that has long defined this man:

    "Chávez is a threat because he offers the alternative of a decent society. Venezuela's president is using oil revenues to liberate the poor - no wonder his enemies want to overthrow him"

    John Pilger

    Saturday May 13, 2006

    The Guardian.......

    Or this naive shortsighted action:

    Pilger is a supporter of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez.[5] In May 2007 he co-signed and put forward a letter supporting the refusal of the Chavez government to renew the broadcasting licence of Venezuela's largest television network Radio Caracas Televisión, for openly supporting and colluding in a 2002 coup attempt against Chavez's democratically elected government." wikipedia

    How lovely. Not only naively stupid, in support of an obvious buffoon cum dictator in the making, but with all the hallmarks of a champion of the freedom of the press, not. So are Pilger and Mailer peas in the same pod?

    Do you spend a lot of time with this sort of intellectual company Mr. Kool?

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/10/2007 @ 7:27pm

  11. Posted by CANAAR 11/10/2007 @ 6:47pm

    Two points, CAN...

    1. If Reagan had stabbed his 2nd wife with a penknife, the Right surely would have overlooked it in a salute to him upon his death....but you would grant that SOMEBODY on the Left would have mentioned it (and rightly so) among all the accolades and canonization?

    2. I don't believe in canonization of anybody.

    Posted by Mask at 11/10/2007 @ 7:43pm

  12. All ya gotta do is say the words, "neoklutz ass-clowns" and POOF they appear.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/10/2007 @ 7:45pm

  13. Posted by LRJONES4 11/10/2007 @ 7:27pm |

    so if a tv station in australia regularly called for the illegal overthrow and assasination of your pm...nothing would be done? the venezuelan station in fact still broadcasts on cable/satelite.

    you see, in our anglo societies, broadcasters may call for peple to vote in a certain way (though not too overtly if they want to be taken seriously) but they dont call for the violent overthrow of our government...

    the venezuelan station did just that. if don hugo were in fact the boogyman of your christo-satano-aynrando-fascist heroes...why did he do no more than jerk their free wave broadcast liscence?

    seems like if he's so bad he'd have made them "disappear"...

    butof course he's not that bad unless one is a member of the traditionally oppresive class of venezuela or a christo-satano-aynrando-fascist...like a neocon...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 7:57pm

  14. Posted by MASK 11/10/2007 @ 7:43pm

    he stabbed his 2nd wife with a penknife? ow...sure it wasnt an "accident"? once i squished my ex's fingers in a auto-car window accientally...we had been riding around and she was sniping at me all the way and was convinced i did it on purpose and although it really was an accident i still laughed because her reaction was so exagerated and she had really gotten on my last nerve...which made me look bad, i guess, and she called me an abuser after that...

    but i guess mailer stabbed her on purpose, eh?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 8:06pm

  15. ...with all the hallmarks of a champion of the freedom of the press, not.

    This is an argument in the Rovian nature of misdirecting attention by creating a microscopic focus on the mote in your neighbor's eye while ignoring the beam in your own.

    What would be the nature of U.S. freedoms under the first amendment, according to our current majority of 'freedom loving' justices on the U.S. Supreme Court concerning a similar presidential refusal under the Patriot Act or the Alien and Sedition Act or under the authority allegedly vested by the Constitution in the unitary executive (some might call this a treasonous construction since it does violence to the constitution our Deciderator in Chief swore to defend), who would similarly revoke PBS access to U.S. airwaves if PBS were to collude with a foreign power to execute an armed coup against our nascent fascists in the West Wing?

    Posted by canaar at 11/10/2007 @ 8:09pm

  16. Who is Norman Mailer? Never heard of him.

    Posted by ACook at 11/10/2007 @ 8:39pm

  17. Posted by ACOOK 11/10/2007 @ 8:39pm

    norm [en.wikipedia.org]

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 8:50pm

  18. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 7:57pm

    Bugger the Buffoon Ibbie, we're talking about the judgment of his Western, enablers, like Pilger. Boy can he anoint duds and invariably end up supporting those who turn out to be bad guys, even in your limited political vocabulary.

    Nope we stick Islamofascists in gaol as quick as you can Abdul but calling for violent overthrow of the government is par for the course by our red-blooded Aussies lefties. Which in fact is what I notice you are advocating for your present government from time to time on this site.

    Mailer is hardly a blip on the world scene, at least my part of it, so was just wondering if he and Pilger were clones. Sort of education on the cheap.

    (As far as that x-military buffoon is concerned, are all those students (80,000?) getting shot at by his goons right wing fascists? I mean the poor, the ignorant and the uneducated are always fodder for demagogues, we know that but it sure is disturbing if all those students are bloody right wingers. Don't you think?)

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/10/2007 @ 9:07pm

  19. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 8:50pm

    Sorry IBBLE, his books aren't familiar to me. We read the classics in high school and college. Besides, his books seem to be a bit "new aged", something I'm not into. I find books like that terribly boring.

    Posted by ACook at 11/10/2007 @ 9:10pm

  20. ...but you would grant that SOMEBODY on the Left would have mentioned it

    You answered the question unasked (a straw man argument?). Would the msm have mentioned the penknife incident if Reagan were to have acted in that way would have been the responsive question in return to which I would ask in turn "Why would they?"

    They were willing to ignore Iran Contra, the rape of the savings and loan and other law breaking on a much grander and destructive human scale than at worst, assault with intent to maim a single individual.

    Committing the same act or worse, through minions and on a scale of hundreds of thousands injured or killed is the kind of act worthy of con hero worship (one man's saint is another man's hero) that received no balancing reference whatsoever.

    Regardless of those hypotheticals, the point I was attempting to illustrate was that pissing on the grave before the body is cold is generally considered to be egregious in most societies.

    Posted by canaar at 11/10/2007 @ 9:45pm

  21. Posted by LRJONES4 11/10/2007 @ 9:07pm

    with venezuela its hard to know whats going on. some years back when the western press reported violence, photos were shown of folks supposedly shot by chavezistas...but they were chavez supporters shot by anti-chavez forces...

    funny...a century and a half of elitist, right wing institutionalized terrorism against the huddled, exploited unwhite masses get ignored by the right wing, but the moment some non-rightwinger fights back and (gasp!) redistributes a little wealth...

    COMMERNISM! LEFTWING DICTATOR! MONSTER!

    ppffft! sickening hypocrisy and or ignorance.

    in terms of my evil epistles, have you ever read the right wingers in this country just a few years back crowing and calling anyone other than themselves treasonous traitors, etc? just a joke? no hard feelings? they didnt really mean it?

    well then i guess they will understand my little tirades, eh? right up til their date for explosive decapitation for effing treason!

    LMAO!

    Posted by ACOOK 11/10/2007 @ 9:10pm

    never been a big mailer readermyself...hows son doing?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 9:55pm

  22. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 9:55pm

    My son's doing fine. Thanks, for asking. Say, how'd your date go last nite?

    Posted by ACook at 11/10/2007 @ 10:07pm

  23. Even though many praise Mailer's work, he himself does not need to be celebrated. The man definitely had his ugly side. He was married six times and had abused many of his wives. As stated by Mask he even tried to kill his second wife in a drunken rage.

    In The Execututioner's Song, Mailer seemed to show he had a love affair with psychopaths and protrayed them as outsiders to society. He even actively lobbied to get a dangerous criminal, Jack Abbott, out of jail, who upon release, killed a man in New York. Mailer even testified at his trial on his behalf.

    I'm sure there are better people The Nation can praise who have stood up to GW and his policies.

    Posted by Zeddmen at 11/10/2007 @ 10:09pm

  24. Posted by MASK 11/10/2007 @ 7:43pm

    1. If Reagan had stabbed his 2nd wife with a penknife, the Right surely would have overlooked it in a salute to him upon his death....

    Not true, MASK. The right regularly dumps corrupt politicians. This is in contrast to the left, which supports perjurers like Clinton, bribe-takers like Clinton and Hastings, yet-to-be-indicted-for-vehicular-manslaughter Ted Kennedy, crack-smoking Marion Barry...the list is quite extensive.

    What we DON'T dump are politicians that are guilty of crimes only in the bloated imaginations of the left - like Bush/Cheney 'getting rich' off the war - a wholly unsubstiated charge - Bush 'lying' - again, wholly unsubstantiated - ad nauseum. The problem with the left is they repeat their canards so ceaselessly that they are convinced there own made-up charges are true - and they're outraged when the real world fails to conform to their fantasies.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/10/2007 @ 10:11pm

  25. By the way, the only thing more gratifying than watching the stock of the New York Times plunge, hitting new weekly lows - is watching the left wing anti-American films that Hollywood produces tank. Of course, Hollywood no longer relies on America to make money off their films - their are plenty of folks overseas eager for anti-American propaganda, and willing to pay for it. But at least Americans are no longer buying this tripe. I had to cut back my Blockbuster subscription, there's nothing even worth renting any more.

    Hollywood is casualty of war as movie-goers shun Iraq films Nov 9 11:21 AM US/Eastern

    453 Comments

    View larger image

    The wave of recent films set against the backdrop of war in Iraq and post-9/11 security has failed to win over film-goers keen to escape grim news headlines when they go to the movies, analysts say.

    In a break with past convention, when films based on real conflicts were made only years after the last shots were fired, several politically-charged films have gone on release while America remains embroiled in Iraq.

    Almost without exception, however, the crop of movies have struggled to turn a profit at the box-office and in many cases have received a mauling from unimpressed critics as well.

    "Rendition," a drama starring Reese Witherspoon and Jake Gyllenhaal about the CIA's policy of outsourcing interrogation of terror suspects, has taken just under 10 million dollars at the box office, a disastrous return.

    Oscar-winning director Paul Haggis's latest film "In the Valley of Elah," about a father investigating the death of his son in Iraq, earned favorable reviews but less than seven million dollars following its release in September.

    Even the action-packed "The Kingdom," starring Jamie Foxx and Jennifer Garner, fell well below its 70 million budget with around 47 million dollars in ticket sales.

    The poor returns do not augur well for more war films due for release in North America later this month, notably the Robert Redford-directed drama "Lions for Lambs" and Brian De Palma's hard-hitting "Redacted," based on the real-life rape and murder of an Iraqi schoolgirl by US soldiers.

    Lew Harris, the editor of website Movies.com, said the films have struggled to be successful because the subject matters of Iraq and 9/11 remain too close to home. And in many cases, the films have not been entertaining enough.

    "These movies have to be entertaining," Harris told AFP. "You can't just take a movie and make it anti-war or anti-torture and expect to draw people in.

    "That's what happened with 'Rendition' and it has been a disaster," he said.

    "People want war movies to have a slam-bang adventure feel to them ... But Iraq is a difficult war to portray in a kind of rah-rah-rah, exciting way.

    "And it's just too close to home. The Vietnam war movies didn't start until long after the war was over.

    "But here for the first time you're seeing things that you're reading about in the newspaper or seeing on television in movie theatres. I'm not sure that's something that people want. A lot of people go to the movies to escape."

    According to Gitesh Pandya, an analyst with website boxofficeguru.com, cinema-goers were unenthusiastic about spending money for movies about subjects they see on television at no cost.

    "I just think it's something that people are not willing to pay top dollar to see, especially when we get so much coverage at home for free," Pandya told AFP. "At the end of the day it's not content people are willing to pay for."

    Pandya said the subject matter of the films also made them particularly vulnerable to poor reviews.

    "Older-skewing films are affected by reviews a lot more than a movie aimed at teenagers. It's possible for a teen movie with horrible reviews to be a commercial success; but for films targeting an older audience, the reviews can make or break them," he added. "And the reviews for these films have not been great."

    Veteran television producer Steven Bochco, whose 2005 television series "Over There" about a platoon of soldiers fighting in Iraq ended after just one season, said it was hard to engage audiences in a "hugely unpopular war."

    "TV is fully saturated with this war and I don't know if you can do a serious drama about this war and locate any angle that would overcome the negativity about it," he told the New York daily Newsday.

    Iraq films remain a difficult sell for audiences because of the swirl of confusion surrounding the rights and wrongs of the conflict, he added.

    "World War II was hugely romanticized in terms of its fiction. There were unambiguous villains, and the feeling we were fighting the right people over the right issues, as opposed to this war, which many people feel is misguided.

    Copyright AFP 2007, AFP stories and photos shall not be published, broadcast, rewritten for broadcast or publication or redistributed directly or indirectly in any medium

    Posted by pontificus at 11/10/2007 @ 10:14pm

  26. Posted by ACOOK 11/10/2007 @ 10:07pm

    not bad. we're actually old friends...didn't stay too late as she had a death in the family and had to do death stuff today...which sort of put a...pall...on the evening...lol...

    but otherwise a solid restart...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 10:26pm

  27. Regardless of those hypotheticals, the point I was attempting to illustrate was that pissing on the grave before the body is cold is generally considered to be egregious in most societies.----Posted by CANAAR 11/10/2007 @ 9:45pm

    Reagan died June 5, 2004....THIS was a "Nation" editorial posted FIVE DAYS LATER...

    editorial | posted June 10, 2004 (June 28, 2004 issue) The Reagan Legacy

    Were "The Nation" writers "egregiously pissing", CANAAR?

    Posted by Mask at 11/10/2007 @ 10:32pm

  28. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 9:55pm

    Think this thread is really about Mailer and by reading posts from both sides of the political divide, it has become easy for me to now see he is the sort of maladjusted bastard that Pilger would support.

    So to supporter of dictatorial regimes we can add those who should have been aborted or castrated pre-puberty.

    Is the Human Rights Foundation leftie kosher? http://tinyurl.com/2vr8wl

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/10/2007 @ 10:42pm

  29. On April 11, 2002, after three days of demonstrations, anti-Chávez and pro-Chávez demonstrators clashed at the Miraflores Palace. The government ordered the suspension of broadcasting by the privately-owned TV channels Televen, Venevisión, Globovisión and RCTV at around 4 p.m., shortly after they refused to carry a speech by President Chávez exclusively and used split screens to broadcast live pictures the opposition demonstration being broken up at the same time as the president's speech. Only the state-owned Venezolana de Televisión was allowed to continue broadcasting.[37][39][40]

    After several shooting deaths, elements of the Armed Forces deposed President Hugo Chávez, whom they held responsible.[41][42] Commander of the Army, Lucas Rincón Romero, reported in a nationwide broadcast that Chávez had resigned his presidency,[41] a charge Chávez would later deny. Chávez was taken to a military base while Fedecámaras president Pedro Carmona was appointed as the transitional President of Venezuela.[41][43]

    RCTV reported these actions as a victory for democracy and conducted friendly interviews with leaders of the movement.[citation needed] Footage from the Irish documentary The Revolution Will Not Be Televised appeared to show a coup leader thanking RCTV and Venevisión for their assistance, calling the media "[our] secret weapon".

    Subsequently the new government rapidly unraveled, after Carmona issued a decree that established a transitional government, dissolving the National Assembly and the Supreme Court, and suspending several Chávez appointees. While his own coalition wavered, large sectors of the armed forces moved into the Chávez camp, linked up with a mass popular uprising from the barrios, and restored Chávez to office.[citation needed] RCTV declined to report any of these events, preferring to broadcast reruns of Looney Tunes and the film Pretty Woman .[citation needed] According to the Chicago Tribune, RCTV and other broadcasters supported the failed coup "by directing marchers and then failing to inform the public that the coup had failed".[44]

    Chávez was restored to power on April 13, 2002. Over the following months, and again in the wake of the 2002 lock-out and general strike, he stepped up his criticism of the country's private media companies, accusing them of having supported the coup. On his weekly television program Aló Presidente and in other forums, he regularly referred to the leading private media owners as "coup plotters", "fascists", and "the four horsemen of the apocalypse".[45] He reminded them that their concessions operated at the pleasure of the state and that if they "went too far", their concessions could be canceled at any time.[46]

    Independent observers concur RCTV participated in and supported the coup of April 11, 2002.[47][2] RCTV encouraged pro-coup protests, celebrated when Chávez was temporarily removed from power, and broadcast false reports that Chávez had renounced his presidency.[47] In addition, when Chávez returned to power, RCTV did not report the news but rather broadcast entertainment programs such as the movie Pretty Woman. According to RCTV, their decision not to transmit the images of riots taking place all over Caracas was in order not to entice more deaths and destruction in Venezuela.

    so rctv helped in the illegal coup attempt against the lawfully elected government of hugo chavez!

    and all hugo and the lawfully elected government of venezuela did was jerk their license? and they still broadcast on cable?

    don hugo - you are a better man than i...

    so croc, why do you support fascists who try to overthrow lawfully elected governments?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 10:57pm

  30. so croc, why do you support fascists who try to overthrow lawfully elected governments?

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 10:57pm

    you like the fascism?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 10:58pm

  31. cuz thats how it always seems to go with the christo-satano-aynrando-fascists...

    ignore evil and project onto the decent...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/10/2007 @ 11:08pm

  32. you like the fascism?

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 10:58pm

    "On April 11, 2002, after three days of demonstrations, anti-Chávez and pro-Chávez demonstrators clashed at the Miraflores Palace. The government ordered the suspension of broadcasting by the privately-owned TV channels Televen, Venevisión, Globovisión and RCTV at around 4 p.m., shortly after they refused to carry a speech by President Chávez exclusively and used split screens to broadcast live pictures the opposition demonstration being broken up at the same time as the president's speech. Only the state-owned Venezolana de Televisión was allowed to continue broadcasting.[37][39][40]"

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/10/2007 @ 10:58pm

    As you can see Ibbie, by your own contribution, that freedom-of-the-press-loving, Chavez shut some down, not because they would not broadcast his speech (in half frame pictures) and not primarily for vanity reasons but could it possibly be so the public could not check the accuracy of what he wanted to say when the other half of the screen was showing what the opposition was up to? Notice that another three private channels were up to the same caper so it wasn't just RCTV who could see the hole in the donut. Well there it is, RCTV was opposing this government as it apparently had previous governments. In those cases over corruption and bad governance, long before Chavez appeared on the political stage.

    But what happens? The government broadcasting station performs the sort of function dictatorial socialist regimes expect of its arms of government.

    RCTV was claiming around that time Chavez was moving to the consolidation of his authoritarian power. Perhaps it was perceptive as the present circumstances indicate.

    It matters little whether he is a fascist or a wacky sort of socialist, what is beyond doubt is that he is an autocrat who is consolidating his own power. And that is a problem primarily for Venezuelans but my interest is in the Pilgers of this world who give these sorts of regimes and leaders credibility not deserved.

    Do I like and support fascism? When I was a small boy I once heard someone say Communism = Fascism. Not even sure of the context but I came to realise that both systems require enormous, extensive and intrusive government regulation if they are to work. That sort of regulation leads to a loss of many personal freedoms and in the most "successful" examples the police state.

    So what is it that is essentially wrong with fascism? It is not anti-semitism for that really only found its expression in German Nazism and the German Volk mythology that lead to the Aryan race doctrine. No it is essentially that it, of necessity restricts human freedom by government regulation. I note that it is the socialists on this site that consistently are the great advocates of the government regulated society.

    Fascist, Commo or Socialist - When it's all boiled down, what's the difference?

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/11/2007 @ 12:31am

  33. Who is Norman Mailer? Never heard of him.

    Posted by ACOOK 11/10/2007 @ 8:39pm

    YOU'VE GOT TO BE KIDDING...

    For a change, try reading something besides the propoganda pamphlets your reactionary church publishes....

    Posted by w_m_bear at 11/11/2007 @ 12:49am

  34. Posted by MASK 11/10/2007 @ 10:32pm

    Five days after his passing v. ASAP. Seems like a substantive difference to me, but then again, I suppose we all have our own standards with regard to a decent interval.

    Posted by canaar at 11/11/2007 @ 01:12am

  35. Enormous talent as a writer and most of all as a "professional celebrity", but decidedly disappointing as a novelist. Annoyingly overblown, his works lacked subtlety and genuine humour.

    Interesting what James Baldwin had to say about Mailer's essay The White Negro, where he "took on the complicated subject of race relations. Unfortunately, Norman's dialectical insight went over some people's heads. After reading the essay, James Baldwin, the great black novelist, confessed: "I could not, with the best will in the world, make any sense out of The White Negro." (James Baldwin, Nobody Knows My Name, New York, Dell Books, 1978 ed.)

    http://www.americanlegends.com/authors/norman_mailer.html

    Posted by chinpoko at 11/11/2007 @ 03:03am

  36. "For a change, try reading something besides the propoganda pamphlets your reactionary church publishes...."

    Posted by W_M_BEAR 11/11/2007 @ 12:49am

    No thanks, I get enough propoganda from the Nation and the Kos.

    Posted by ACook at 11/11/2007 @ 08:30am

  37. Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 12:31am

    LR, have you read Paul Johnson's 'Modern Times'? Just curious.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 08:36am

  38. LRJONES, I don't think you're going to shake IBBLE's love for Chavez, even if (especially if?) you show him to be a socialist dictator. IBBLE and Chavez are on the same side re: George Bush, and that's really all that matters to IBBLE.

    Spanish King Tells Chavez to "Shut Up" Nov 10 06:13 PM US/Eastern By EDUARDO GALLARDO Associated Press Writer

    Related Stories

    SANTIAGO, Chile (AP) - The king of Spain told Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez to "shut up" Saturday during a heated exchange at a summit of leaders from Latin America, Spain and Portugal.

    Chavez, who called President Bush the "devil" on the floor of the United Nations last year, triggered the exchange by repeatedly referring to former Spanish Prime Minister Jose Maria Aznar as a "fascist." .

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 08:42am

  39. It's no wonder that people like IBBLE hate Bush so much. Religious zealots, especially those who belong to the Holy Socialist Church, despise infidels.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 08:44am

  40. LR, have you read Paul Johnson's 'Modern Times'? Just curious.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 08:36am

    No Ponti but am aware that he is a conservative. Do you think I need a bit of sorting out?

    Not too well book informed politically but have great talk fests, from time to time with a few of my lefty and bookworm conservative friends, from Uni days, whom I hope are politically aware and not purposely leading me astray. I've found that being able to count sometimes helps in getting to the truth of a matter.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/11/2007 @ 09:02am

  41. LRJONES and PONTY

    first of all let me express my gratitude to both of you christo-satano-aynrando-fascist enablers. without such as yourselves i guess i would be left argueing with myself, or with some moron like BARRY25, so thanks guys...

    let me say that although i will indeed defend don hugo and his regime against the one sided, truth ignoring/twisting, history ignoring attacks of the christo-satano-aynrando-fascists, i indeed neither worship don hugo nor say he is perfect...

    but what aussie and gringo christo-satano-aynrando-fascist enablers fail to either see/understand/mention is over a century and a half of some of the bloodiest, most racist, evil, aristocratic right wing dictators and despots the world has ever seen - the legacy of latin america... these are evil, murderous bastards who are andhave been ever willing to lie, murder, steal, and viciously exploit their own people in order to enrich themselves and further exploit their own people. furthermore, the latin american aristocratic right has time and again sold their own countries and brown skinned people out to the yankee colosus to the north rather than share their ill gotton and jealously guarded fortunes.

    they have time and again proven to be bloody, violent abominations to the human spirit and time and again have recieved support and comfort from sickening ignorant-or-just-evil christo-satano-aynrando-fascists and christo-satano-aynrando-fascist enablers like LRJONES, PONTY, LL, and all the other christo-satano-aynrando-fascists and christo-satano-aynrando-fascist enablers who post here...

    so i think don hugo is tough huevon...AGAINST THE LATINO-ARISTO-GRINGO-ASSO-KISSO-FASCISTS OF HIS OWN COUNTRY WHO LAUNCHED AN ILLEGAL COUP, SUPPORTED BY THE USA AGAINST HIM, HAVE TRIED TO KILL HIM, AND USED THEIR TV STATIONS TO TRY TO ILLEGALLY TOPPLE/KILL HIM...HE HAS TO BE! and all hugo did was jerk their free broacast lisence? shit, christo-satano-aynrando-fascists, the man is a lot more merciful than his opponants!

    but you christo-satano-aynrando-fascists and christo-satano-aynrando-fascist enablers just go ahead and believe/spread lies that support your arrogant preconcieved christo-satano-aynrando-fascist notions and enable evil.

    thats just what you do!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 11:15am

  42. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 08:42am

    Ha, Ha Ponti. Ibbie still needs us, as he said, to stoke his fire. I love his impersonations of 'ugo..... or...oh no...could it be?

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/11/2007 @ 12:18pm

  43. DOES POL POT PONTI-TERRORIST, THE DEPRAVED KHMER ROUGE SUPPORTER WHO WAS FOR RIMMING SADDAM HUSSEIN BEFORE HE WAS AGAINST HIM, ALSO SUPPORT CHAVEZ WHEN HE GOES TO THE PUMP WITH HIS PARENTS'S ALLOWANCE MONEY?

    It took all of two minutes to find the figures, from US government sources, that Venezuela is the No.5 importer of petro into the US.

    PONTI-TERRORIST, where is the outrage? When are you going to siphon gas from your car in order to boycott Hugo's "Bolivar Style Revolution"? When will you siphon the gas from the neighbor's car and a take a stand for geo-politcal-ideo-petro cleansing?

    We shall not ask how many times you railed again at Venezuela's government 15 years ago when they were massacring protesters in the street. We know that you, as a sick rightwing freak, rub your own g-spot over that kind of thing as further manifested by your statments of allegiance to the genocidal Khmer Rouge and the 1980s Iraqi Ba'athists at the height of their mass-murder campaigns. What we want to know is when you will siphon the gas from your car and turn the heat off in your (parents's) home to show your steadfast opposition to Hugo for his insufficiently statist repressive actions? Demonstrate to us the righteous outrage and divest yourself of every ounce of Chavista petro in your life!

    [From: http://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_l evel_imports/current/import.html]

    Crude Oil and Total Petroleum Imports Top 15 Countries

    August 2007 Import Highlights: Released on October 30, 2007

    Monthly data on the origins of crude oil imports in August 2007 has been released and it shows that one country has exported more than 1.50 million barrels per day to the United States. Including that country, a total of five countries exported over 1.00 million barrels per day of crude oil to the United States (see table below). The top five exporting countries accounted for 69 percent of United States crude oil imports in August while the top ten sources accounted for approximately 89 percent of all U.S. crude oil imports. The top sources of US crude oil imports for August were Canada (1.950 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.468 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.381 million barrels per day), Nigeria (1.184 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (1.138 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Algeria (0.572 million barrels per day), Iraq (0.520 million barrels per day), Angola (0.400 million barrels per day), Brazil (0.250 million barrels per day), and Ecuador (0.240 million barrels per day. Total crude oil imports averaged 10,284 million barrels per day in August, which is an increase of 0.382 million barrels per day from July 2007.

    Crude Oil Imports (Top 15 Countries) (Thousand Barrels per Day) Country Aug-07 Jul-07 YTD 2007 Aug-06 Jan - August 2006

    1- CANADA 1,950 1,797 1,853 1,862 1,780

    2- SAUDI ARABIA 1,468 1,434 1,427 1,477 1,409

    3- MEXICO 1,381 1,469 1,448 1,667 1,663

    4- NIGERIA 1,184 890 1,025 898 1,063

    5- VENEZUELA 1,138 1,167 1,120 1,151 1,166

    Also in the top 15: Iraq with its Iran enabling junta, Quadafi's country-wide terror institute in Libya, Leftwing Lulu's Brazil, the resurgent Russia bear ...

    Posted by John_Shaft at 11/11/2007 @ 12:24pm

  44. Also in the top 15: Iraq with its Iran enabling junta, Quadafi's country-wide terror institute in Libya, Leftwing Lulu's Brazil, the resurgent Russia bear ...

    Posted by JOHN_SHAFT 11/11/2007 @ 12:24pm

    and don't forget,

    FROSTY ZOOM'S ever annoying canada at #1

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 12:31pm

  45. Ibbie still needs us, as he said, to stoke his fire. I love his impersonations of 'ugo..... or...oh no...could it be?

    Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 12:18pm

    lol - without you lie enablers, how could i spread truth?

    let it not be said that the ibb aint grateful and gracious to his honored evil enabling opponants..

    "love thine enemy", even if thou must crush him...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 12:33pm

  46. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/11/2007 @ 12:31pm

    FZ,

    You are right, I neglected to mention Canada, the "third world police state terror regime" that abuts the USA. Nevertheless, "third world police state terror regime" is a close paraphrase to one of the truly abysmal and excrementious RIO KORESH's doozies, that also serves as a representative example of the animal-like ignorance of the braying and brainwashed rightwing herd.

    Posted by John_Shaft at 11/11/2007 @ 12:35pm

  47. "love thine enemy", even if thou must crush him...

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/11/2007 @ 12:33pm

    "love thine enemy", even as thou convinceth shim*...

    the act of crushing is what usually causes enmity in the first place................

    and cross your fingers ;+∫

    הבה נגילה

    *shim: genderless object pronoun; amalgamation of him/her

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 1:24pm

  48. Posted by JOHN_SHAFT 11/11/2007 @ 12:35pm

    did you happen to see this?

    "Study Finds Carcinogens in Water Near Alberta Oil Sands Projects

    By IAN AUSTEN

    Published: November 9, 2007

    OTTAWA, Nov. 7 -- High levels of carcinogens and toxic substances have been found in fish, water and sediment downstream from Alberta's huge oil sands projects, according to a new study.

    The 75-page report, written by Kevin P. Timoney, an ecologist with Treeline Environmental Research, was commissioned by the local health authority of Fort Chipewyan, Alberta, where many residents say they believe the oil sands developments to the south are damaging their health.

    Oil sands developments are generally vast open-pit mines that recover a form of tar mixed with sand. That tar, which is formally known as bitumen, is later separated and processed to produce oil. Most of the oil from the Alberta developments is sent to the United States.

    i love oil.

    full link over on the greenfransisco thread................................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 1:29pm

  49. that which i admire the most about don hugo is in fact the restraint he has used in dealing with his domestic illegal armed coup plotting, assasination fantasizing latino-aristo-fascist opponants who are propped up, funded, and supported by our illegal coup/assasination enabling christo-satano-aynrando fascist illegal regime.

    chavez's latino-aristo-fascist opponants, who control most of the country's private media (much like our own christo-satano-aynrando-fascists do our media) have with our illegal government's enthusiastic covert support, done everything they could to provoke hugo chavez into becoming the monster they portray him to be...but time and again he has resisted falling into that evil trap...

    that is truly amazing! and the more his opponants push, the more restraint don hugo shows...

    and that restraint, coupled with the unparalleled economic and social progress evinced by venezuela's glorious experiment...ENFURIATES CHRISTO-SATANO-AYNRANDO-FASCISTS WORLDWIDE!

    ha ha ha! how dare that bastard show the world another way?! how dare he flip us the bird?! how dare 60+% of venezuela's people determine their own social/economic fate and such fate be viable, successful, and NOT OUR EVIL SELF SERVING CHRISTO-SATANO-AYNRANDO-FASCIST BULLSHIT?!

    VIVA DON HUGO! keep up the good work and continue to resist the temptation to become the monster they paint you and try to provoke you into becoming! and watch your ass, because FASCISTS ARE EVIL AND MURDEROUS!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 1:36pm

  50. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/11/2007 @ 1:24pm

    well...as referenced above, yes indeed one must use restraint...

    i honestly feel chavez would be perfectly within his right to arrest large numbers of the opposition leaders in his country, try them for treason and hang them. i also think that he would be well within his right to expell all american government representatives from venezuela...

    but both would be suicidal and stupid in the long run, would play right into the hands of his enemies...and he is too smart (i think, i hope) for that. he has, in fact, done a brilliant job of bringing a knife to a gunfight...and winning! time and time again!

    THIS (his genius, his success and resistance to our baiting) is what our fascist overlords hate the most about him...

    and then he pulls the awesomely insulting move where he provided cheap heating oil to his enemy's downtrodden! lol! oh how that pissed off the neofascists!

    and he continues to succeed in binding together an anti aynrando-gringo-fascisto latin american alliance!

    god bless him and give him the strength to continue to show the restraint, wisdom, and cojones that will be needed to oppose satano-aynrando-uhmuruhkuh style fascism!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 1:51pm

  51. but one can crush one's beloved enemies without harming a hair on their evil heads, you know?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 1:52pm

  52. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/11/2007 @ 1:52pm

    that works.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 2:34pm

  53. although it appears most recently chavez may indeed be going down the dictatorial path unfortunately...

    ah well...hopefully by the time he is finished he will at least have redistributed enough wealth to have created a venezuelan middle class that wont be so fragile as to be destroyed when anti-chavezistas eventually regain power...

    maybe a legitimate (N) american administration capable of engaging in smart diplomacy sans internal interference could negotiate some kind of deal to reign in don hugo? well, it appears we wont know for over a year, if that.

    ah don hugo...restrain thyself before thou loseth thyself!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 3:07pm

  54. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/11/2007 @ 1:51pm

    I honestly feel chavez would be perfectly within his right to arrest large numbers of the opposition leaders in his country, try them for treason and hang them.

    although it appears most recently chavez may indeed be going down the dictatorial path unfortunately...

    IBBLE, you are either very confused or very stupid. Most likely, both.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 4:45pm

  55. Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 09:02am

    No Ponti but am aware that he is a conservative. Do you think I need a bit of sorting out?

    No. I just find it remarkable when two people express the same conclusions, independently arrived at. "Modern Times" is a NYT best seller so I thought it possible you might have read it, especially when you sound almost exactly like the author. Of course, Paul Johnson beat you by about 20 years, but nevertheless, it shows that common sense does, in fact, gurgle to the top all on its own.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 4:53pm

  56. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 4:45pm

    his recent constitutional reform has some disturbing elements, ponti, on that i agree...

    the shutting down of the tv station that exhorted illegal violence doesnt bother me...in fact it was not even shut down at all and is available on cable/satelite for those venezuelans who pay for it...

    the constitutional referendum is coming up for a vote soon and i would love to see objective international monitoring of the vote. the last interim legislative elections in venezuela were boycotted by many opposition groups, who then claimed they were discriminated against...because THEY boycotted....

    so unlike you and many christo-satano-aynrando-fascists

    1. i do not indeed make up my mind and hold a pre-determined opinion against evidence to the contrary...

    2. hold such opinions for fear of having my pride dinked by being called confused or stupid when CREDIBLE evidence/arguments shed doubt on said opinions...

    3. fail to express doubt nor change opinion about those for whom i advocate and/or defend when presented with evidence to the contrary...

    so i say here and now there are 2 specific things that indeed alarm me about don hugo - his drive to become ever re-electable, and his inclusion of socialist terminology in the proposed new constitution of venezuela...

    which is why i want to see international observation in the upcoming referendom...

    but if the stupid opposition boycotts the referendum...?????...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 5:15pm

  57. maybe a legitimate (N) american administration capable of engaging in smart diplomacy sans internal interference could negotiate some kind of deal to reign in don hugo? well, it appears we wont know for over a year, if that.

    ah don hugo...restrain thyself before thou loseth thyself!

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/11/2007 @ 3:07pm

    Hmmm, Seeing sense now Ibbie....or coming down off a high? Watch that speed baby. But look, what with that Canadian bloke who gets inebriated on oil and a cheer leader who gets his kicks out of continually shafting himself, you look OK to me Ibbie. Even when you are stoked.

    But why oh why do you lefties want to run the world. Buffoonish 'ugo is not your concern or mine. The Venezuelans can deal with him, without our help. I mean you blokes can't even run your own country or deal with a lame duck pressie or ....or...or.. and you're still trying to run the world.

    My only interest in all this is because of my extreme embarrassment that an Aussie...an Aussie can you believe it, is promoting that fascist/socialist/halfwit south of your great country.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/11/2007 @ 5:15pm

  58. IBBLE, you are either very confused or very stupid. Most likely, both.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 4:45pm |

    well of course since you are unable to see any issue in anything but pro or con...i must be stupid or confused...

    gotcha...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 5:17pm

  59. The Venezuelans can deal with him, without our help.

    Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 5:15pm

    ah indeed...up early, eh?

    so live and let live! let people determine their own affairs for better or worse...

    do you think the usa has not been supporting anti-chavezistas? lol...

    if hugo's system is so inferior to satano-aynrando-capitalism...leave them alone and let them crash!

    but if the usa is (as it has oh so often in latin america) indeed secretly supporting the latino-aristo-fascists...perhaps don hugo's systemic ideas are indeed a danger to satano-aynrando-corporate-fascism and therefore so opposed!

    you seem to assume yourself to be on the side of the good guys...and they are therefore the bad guys...

    i dont consider my country to necesarily be the good guys...though that does not automatically mean mr. chavez or any of our real enemies are either...

    sometimes bad guys face off against bad guys and the best he good guys can do is try to stay out of the way and hope the bad guys destroy each other...

    but just because someone flips us the bird and doesnt do what we say doesnt make him the bad guy...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 5:28pm

  60. Canadian bloke who gets inebriated on oil

    Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 5:15pm

    here's raising a nice fresh glass of petrol in your honour, sir lrj.

    hey, look!

    the aussie of the year is one of them loony liberals! [australianoftheyear.gov.au]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 6:00pm

  61. Posted by MADLIB 11/11/2007 @ 8:06pm

    he has been elected by landslides twice - internationally monitored at least once...and rctv was constantly calling for his overthrow and assasination...so he jerked their lisence.

    regardless, he has done more for the vast majority of poor venezuelans than anyone before (gasp! sharing equitably the proceeds of the country's oil...commernist!)...

    although some of the new constitutional ammendments he's pushing do indeed sound sketchy to me...

    but thats their business...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 8:44pm

  62. Posted by MADLIB 11/11/2007 @ 8:03pm

    Well, George Bush hasn't packed the Supreme Court beyond what he is legally allowed to do (Chavez hand-picked all 32 justices). Chavez is also in the process of extending his Presidential term to infinity. Chavez is also shutting down opposition media on flimsy pretexts. When Bush does any of that, I'll be on your side. And until you become aware of these issues, I'll consider you to be so uninformed as to simply be an intellectual chew toy.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 8:46pm

  63. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/11/2007 @ 8:44pm

    IBBLE, your absurd rationalizations have been used to 'justify' every two-bit socialist revolution since the USSR. The gripes of adolescence-arrested nihilistic dupes like you have made tinhorn dictators like Chavez possible for decades if not centuries. YOU and your ilk are the problem, not the solution.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/11/2007 @ 8:50pm

  64. "World Class rable-rouser" yes, that's a fine obituary for someone as talented as Mailer, whose loony left political views will forever overshadow his undenial gifts as a writer.....

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/11/2007 @ 8:58pm

  65. IBBLE,

    "Don Hugo" as you call him, will never live down being told to shut up by Spanish King Juan Carlos, who finally said what everyone else has wanted to say.... His increasingly erratic behavior reminds one of Mommar Quadafi crossed with his hero Fidel Castro, complete with long-winded speeches, and step-by-step dictatorial powers....

    That Chavez is a buffoon is plain for anyone to see, lets see how long he lasts when the price of oil falls back down to the $60 per barrel range........

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/11/2007 @ 9:05pm

  66. That Chavez is a buffoon is plain for anyone to see, lets see how long he lasts when the price of oil falls back down to the $60 per barrel range........

    Posted by DAVEBARLETT 11/11/2007 @ 9:05pm

    well, at that rate he's not going anywhere fast.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 9:18pm

  67. Frosty, what goes up, must come down.........

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/11/2007 @ 9:23pm

  68. You what will the LEFT say when or if we go to alternative fuels, then what will that do to the price of oil and their beloved Chavez????

    Will the LEFT then accuse us of trying a massive CIA plot to undermine their beloved Chavez.

    Chavez is fool the highest order and a REAL tryant but the American LEFT thinks Bush is dangerous.....lolol is it any wonder why the American LEFT is not taken seriously?

    Posted by CPT at 11/11/2007 @ 9:28pm

  69. Frosty, what goes up, must come down.........

    Posted by DAVEBARLETT 11/11/2007 @ 9:23pm

    and then run out................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 9:50pm

  70. Posted by CPT 11/11/2007 @ 9:28pm

    well, it's going to be a long time before the pentagon is able to run on ethanol.

    and, oil is used for a lot more than just fuel.

    just sayin' the price ain't goin' anywhere but up.

    that oil will be fungible till the last drop.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/11/2007 @ 9:54pm

  71. oh here come the christo-satano-rando-fascist brigade!

    the more i research this, the less sympathy i have for the anti-chavez fascists in venezuela. typical latin american aristocratic despots. vicious and unwilling to share a single peso with their darky peons...

    ah well, if chavez does devolve into another castro, i just hope he prevents another influx of rabid latin fascists from infesting this country...maybe they can go to spain...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 9:58pm

  72. That Chavez is a buffoon is plain for anyone to see, lets see how long he lasts when the price of oil falls back down to the $60 per barrel range........

    Posted by DAVEBARLETT 11/11/2007 @ 9:05pm

    yeah? whens that happening, dave? when we invade venezuela?

    IBBLE, your absurd rationalizations have been used to 'justify' every two-bit socialist revolution since the USSR. The gripes of adolescence-arrested nihilistic dupes like you have made tinhorn dictators like Chavez possible for decades if not centuries. YOU and your ilk are the problem, not the solution.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 8:50pm

    wow...you christo-satano-aynrando-fascists get pissed when called out dont you? am i "treasonous" ponty? i see you learned some psychology from me too...nice! one day you will grow up to be a fine adult fascist! gee - you neo-nazis can dish it out but choke on it when it gets fed bask!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 10:05pm

  73. revolutionwriteup [tinyurl.com]

    and the film

    therevwillnotbtv [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 11:38pm

  74. the revolution will not be televised...this is why chavez dont like the private venezuelan tv channels - i don't blame him - they make foxnews look fair and balanced - lol...

    revolution [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/11/2007 @ 11:41pm

  75. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/10/2007 @ 4:42pm

    You are aware that the economy and the market are different things?

    Posted by LRJONES4 11/11/2007 @ 12:31am |

    For one, fascism is authoritarian by definition. Socialism can potentially be democratic and respect the rights of minorities. That's a significant difference.

    Posted by srjenkins at 11/12/2007 @ 01:18am

  76. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/11/2007 @ 8:46pm

    I'll grant that Chavez qualifies more as a dictator than George Bush. But your characterization of his control of media is simply not accurate.

    http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=12986

    Posted by CPT 11/11/2007 @ 9:28pm

    Interesting that your diatribes never talk about Ronald Reagan and the people in the current administration who created death squads in Latin America. For a man that supposedly cares about "facts", you seem to ignore important ones - like that the CIA has been involved in attempts to change "regimes" or the assassination of the leaders of other governments.

    Posted by srjenkins at 11/12/2007 @ 01:28am

  77. hey cpt, daveyb: check out the end of oil [nowtoronto.com]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2007 @ 01:41am

  78. Posted by SRJENKINS 11/12/2007 @ 01:28am

    I'll grant that Chavez qualifies more as a dictator than George Bush. But your characterization of his control of media is simply not accurate.

    My characterization is simply not accurate? This is the typical weasel talk typical of yourself, and more broadly that all leftist apologists are famous for when it comes leftist dictators from Stalin to Castro, and now Chavez. Chavez has complete control of the media in Venezuela, as evidenced by the fact that he is able to shut down every broadcast outlet he wants at his whim. This is equivalent to George Bush shutting down ABC, NBC, and CBS and every other station except PBS, firing all the Supreme Court justices and replacing them with his lackeys, and refusing to step down in January 2009 by having his Supreme Court rewrite the prohibition against more than two terms. Even morons such as yourself have to admit that Bush has not even suggested any inclination to do any of these things that you so eagerly apologize for, much less attempted or accomplished them. You are an utter fool, SRJ.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/12/2007 @ 03:58am

  79. By the way, I read, or attempted to read, 'Armies of the Night' by Norman Mailer, 20 years ago. It was the most incomprehenisible mishmash of nonsense I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, and precluded any further readings of this author. My guess is he was heavily into the drug scene. Typically of the drug-addled teen-aged narcissism of 60's radical literature, some people seem to mistake obtuse, disjointed rantings like Mailer's for profundity, especially when they feel some kinship to his political orientation and alienation to society. For the rest of us, we're just kind of shaking our heads.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/12/2007 @ 04:27am

  80. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/12/2007 @ 03:58am

    Chavez has complete control of the media in Venezuela, as evidenced by the fact that he is able to shut down every broadcast outlet he wants at his whim.

    well...it appears he has "shut down" only one, and that still operates in and out of venezuela as cable/satelite...he says he simply did not renew its lisence. regardless...the fact that he has not shut down any other, despite the fact that all conspired in the 03 coup attempt against him suggests he is not exactly a dictator...

    This is equivalent to George Bush shutting down ABC, NBC, and CBS and every other station except PBS, firing all the Supreme Court justices and replacing them with his lackeys, and refusing to step down in January 2009 by having his Supreme Court rewrite the prohibition against more than two terms.

    chavez not renewing the lisence of one channel is the equivelent of all that? wow... so if all the privately owned channels here colluded with an illegal coup that removed bush fro office, then 2 days later bush returned to office...he would not do anything against the private tv channels? the analogy is kind of weak, since the private channels here are mostly owned by fellow elites who like and aid/abet mr bush'es soft core fascism...but...still.

    there will be a national referendum in venezuela on dec 2 or 3 regarding the constitutional ammendments, including the end of term limits for the president. seems a bit dangerous to me too, but its their country, and who is to say every latin american country must ape our system? parliamentary democracies sometimes see prime ministers in office for morethan 8 years, fdr served 15 years during an emergency...and they will still have the option to recall their presient as happened in 2004 (he of course swept the election).

    the last interum elections in venezuela were boycotted by much of the opposition...i guess their attempt to mmake themselves look like persecuted martyrs...if they boycott the upcoming constitutional referendum they can then run around lying that they were denied to vote, or just not mention that fact while pointing out low election turnout ("hmmm...looks suspicious! so few voted against it..." typical right wing rushbo style half truth-full lie).

    refusing to step down in 09 and having supreme court lackeys rewrite constitution? are you indeed an idiot? lol - how 'bout his supreme court lackeys giving him the presisency in 00? wow - nice projection there, ponti! actually it would be more like bush calling a constitutional convention last year or the year before and campaigning to get the two term limits deal abolished.

    musch more like that, ponty. gotta get your analogies down a little better guy...

    Even morons such as yourself have to admit that Bush has not even suggested any inclination to do any of these things that you so eagerly apologize for, much less attempted or accomplished them.

    morons such as yourself? my, the projection continues! well, since hugo has approval ratings og 60%+ and bush is likr 30%-...if bush tried such...well...thats just redonkulous, isnt it?

    You are an utter fool, SRJ.

    again with that projecting!

    By the way, I read, or attempted to read, 'Armies of the Night' by Norman Mailer, 20 years ago. It was the most incomprehenisible mishmash of nonsense I have ever had the misfortune to encounter, and precluded any further readings of this author. My guess is he was heavily into the drug scene. Typically of the drug-addled teen-aged narcissism of 60's radical literature, some people seem to mistake obtuse, disjointed rantings like Mailer's for profundity, especially when they feel some kinship to his political orientation and alienation to society. For the rest of us, we're just kind of shaking our heads.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/12/2007 @ 04:27am

    well of course! if YOU cant understand something...IT must be stupid!

    oh man...its like that old "loony left" mantra you intellect challenged right wingers fall back on..."uh...thats...uh...i dont get it...dammit, I'M smart and THEY are dumd...uh...the must be crazy!!!!"

    awww, poor ponty and his right wing neanderthals...having a hard time understanding complexities, or "hard stuff"...so must ridicule and label as stupid or crazy...must force reality into blac/white, either/or simplicity! must have easy, comforting answers! does not compute! does not compute! brain shutting dow...

    yer all crazy!!!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 10:34am

  81. Posted by MADLIB 11/12/2007 @ 12:25pm

    he's sooooo typical of the con-troll mindset...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 12:28pm

  82. here are the complete television listing for venezuela. [inter.com.ve]

    yep, just one channel.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2007 @ 12:36pm

  83. Posted by MADLIB 11/12/2007 @ 12:39pm

    The lunatic is in the hall.

    The lunatics are in my hall.

    The paper holds their folded faces to the floor

    And every day the paper boy brings more.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/12/2007 @ 12:52pm

  84. lolol is it any wonder why the American LEFT is not taken seriously?

    Posted by CPT 11/11/2007 @ 9:28pm

    Sez the die hard 30%...... loser.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 11/12/2007 @ 12:55pm

  85. Mr. Nichols, thank you for that Mailer excerpt. It was a pleasure reading such clear, articulate and incisive appraisal of Bush's theatrical talents playing a very bad taste drama.

    On the end with Norman Mailer we loose part of our collective moral conscience. With such critical thinking and articulation he would always know the worst of a human being and still bet for the best upholding the banner of moral values and authenticity. Of course he cannot be replaced but I fear that in these times of convenience and material accomodation, likekind thinkers are in extreme short supply and therefore the nation is loosing true reflection mirrors to look upon itself.

    Posted by Frank42 at 11/12/2007 @ 2:07pm

  86. We need to get real about people like Chavez. It was certainly no surprise to me that, after duping his own population, he then thought it expedient to make himself President for life through manipulating the constitution. Its an old Socialist formula, and its working again on the suckers. Chavez is a two bit Latino dictator who has no respect for "rights" at all. Its the height of naievte to admire this guy: He'd wire your ass up to a battery if you so much as looked at him wrong & before he through the switch he'd tell you & himself: I DO DEES.... FOR DE PEEPUL!!!!With any luck he'll find himself soon on the scrapheap of history with all the rest of the two bit Latino dictators, left or right.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 11/12/2007 @ 5:16pm

  87. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 11/12/2007 @ 5:16pm

    It was certainly no surprise to me that, after duping his own population,

    well over 60%...its called democracy...not too long ago our fascists had 50.001% of our people duped and called it a mandate...

    he then thought it expedient to make himself President for life through manipulating the constitution

    i'm not terribly comfy with this either...but a) it aint my or your country, and b) its going to be voted upon early next month...its the equivelent of ammending their constitution

    Its an old Socialist formula, and its working again on the suckers. Chavez is a two bit Latino dictator who has no respect for "rights" at all.

    how bout the old latin aristocratic undemocratic elitist despots who tried to illegally overthrow him? what do you know about the history of latin america? not much it seems... furthermore chavez has in fact been remarkably tolerant to his opponants...all media outlets who conspied to illegally topple him are still in operation - rctv simple cannot use PUBLIC airwaves, which chavez, as legally elected president, has legal control of...

    Its the height of naievte to admire this guy:

    no - its the hieght of naivete to not understand the fascist, vicious historical nature of the latino oligarch class against whom don hugo struggles...

    He'd wire your ass up to a battery if you so much as looked at him wrong & before he through the switch he'd tell you & himself: I DO DEES.... FOR DE PEEPUL!!!!

    oh! so not only are you butt ignorant of history, an apologist for evil, and glorifier of fascism, but you are an insulting RACIST as well!

    well, you ARE a repugnant, i assume, so par for the course...

    With any luck he'll find himself soon on the scrapheap of history with all the rest of the two bit Latino dictators, left or right.

    i dont know...he seems to be doing pretty well, which i'm sure infuriates you no end...and looks like he's building a nice, profitable, progressive latino coalition down there...

    tal vez un dia hijo de putas malparido carepicha facistas como ud van a encontrarse en el basurero de la historio sus mismos...como ese pendejo bush y sus amigos los neofacistas...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 5:48pm

  88. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 11/12/2007 @ 12:36pm | ignore this person

    well you know...all them lazy, emotional, siesta takin', primitive latins living in tree houses and corrugated shacks...they dont have advanced stuff like we uhmuruhkuns, like ol' chimp thornton and poontificus and herr captain...they need a few whitish advanced people to rule them and take care of them!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 5:56pm

  89. i'd love to see SOMEONE do a real, unbiased, report on chavez and the situation in venezuela...its really hard to find.

    there are the right wingnuts parroting right wing bullshit...there is the VIO, which is controlled by chavez himself, and even thor halverson mendez, who has contributed here...well, is a member of the venezuelan elite himself and therefore a bit sketchy in my opinion...

    seems like the nation would be interested in getting the truth about chavez and the situation.

    he IS a phenomenon and the first significant opposition/rival to US power since the end of the cold war...

    good bad or ugly he's worth the attention and its in our interest to get accurate info about him rather than uninformed emotionalized propaganda...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 7:02pm

  90. he IS a phenomenon and the first significant opposition/rival to US power since the end of the cold war...

    in our hemisphere, that is...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 7:04pm

  91. seems like the nation would be interested in getting the truth about chavez and the situation

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/12/2007 @ 7:02pm

    IBBLE, maybe you remember all of those links we used to see on this site with the teaser,

    Venezuela-This is what democracy looks like

    Haven't seen those since Don Hugo started shutting down the opposition TV stations....Coincidence? I think not...

    But lets ask KAT!

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/12/2007 @ 11:10pm

  92. Or, Maybe Nichols! How 'bout it, John?

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/12/2007 @ 11:10pm

  93. Posted by DAVEBARLETT 11/12/2007 @ 11:10pm

    dave - from what i've seen they've only jerked the broadcast license of one channel - rctv - which still is on cable.

    this is what i mean. what the hell's really going on? beyond your propaganda sources you dont know, buttwipe! i dont really know either, but at least i know and admit i dont really know.

    because the vast majority of the reporting on him and it is pathetic...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/12/2007 @ 11:36pm

  94. Yup, Ibble, you sound just like one of the dupes I was talking about. Get back to me in about 5 years, we'll see what the place looks like.

    Biyarlaa, saikhan zakhlolaa!

    Chip

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 11/13/2007 @ 08:06am

  95. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 11/13/2007 @ 08:06am |

    well chimp, it will indeed be interesting to see. the undiscovered country...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/13/2007 @ 09:14am

  96. Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/12/2007 @ 03:58am

    Even morons such as yourself have to admit that Bush has not even suggested any inclination to do any of these things that you so eagerly apologize for, much less attempted or accomplished them.

    But then again, the decisions of Chavez hasn't resulted in the deaths of over 600,000 people, institution of torture as a state policy, significant moves to create a police state or funding the regimes like Chavez's by driving the price of oil higher and funneling cash into the very governments he despises.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 11/12/2007 @ 04:27am

    "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy." Your probably not much of a fan of James Joyce, Thomas Mann or Virginia Woolf either. Thankfully, your judgment doesn't count for much - here or elsewhere.

    Posted by srjenkins at 11/13/2007 @ 12:57pm

  97. 'A classic is a work of literature that everybody talks about but no-one has read' - Ambrose Bierce

    'Don't criticize what you can't understand.' - Robert Allen Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) 'Paredon!' - Ernesto 'El Carnifero' Guevara............................ ..................................... .. Lan Astaslem

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/13/2007 @ 2:08pm

  98. because the vast majority of the reporting on him and it is pathetic...

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 11/12/2007 @ 11:36pm

    IBBLE, what did I tell you about using wiki as a research source? (heh,heh)

    Posted by davebarlett at 11/13/2007 @ 8:05pm

John Nichols John Nichols

Breaking news and analysis on political, social, economic and cultural activism that mainstream media commonly ignore.

Archives

  1. November 2009

  2. October 2009

  3. September 2009

  4. August 2009

  5. July 2009

  6. June 2009

blog roll

Advertisement
Advertisement

Blogs

» The Beat

Bill Moyers Tells a Tale of Two Quagmires: Vietnam & Afghanistan | "Once again, the loudest case for enlarging the war is being made by those who will not have to fight it..."
John Nichols
Posted 43 minutes ago

» The Notion

Palin as the Church Lady | Going Rogue book tour brings passive-aggressive rightwing Christianity to the fore.
Leslie Savan
58 Comments

» Altercation

Slacker Friday | The "Second Amendment" sale; the raving paranoids of the right.
Eric Alterman

» Editor's Cut

An Alternative to Escalation in Afghanistan | President Obama is expected to make a decision regarding his Afghanistan strategy after Thanksgiving.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
58 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

Chongqing: Socialism in One City | China is managing the most important event in the world: the urbanization of half a billion people. Fast.
Robert Dreyfuss
204 Comments

» Act Now!

Toward Copenhagen | A guide to joining the movement against climate change.
Peter Rothberg
61 Comments