Congress Quietly Approves Billions More for Iraq War

posted by John Nichols on 09/28/2007 @ 11:48am

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The Senate agreed on Thursday to increase the federal debt limit by $850 billion -- from $8.965 trillion to $9.815 trillion -- and then proceeded to approve a stop-gap spending bill that gives the Bush White House at least $9 billion in new funding for its war in Iraq.

Additionally, the administration has been given emergency authority to tap further into a $70 billion "bridge fund" to provide new infusions of money for the occupation while the Congress works on appropriations bills for the Department of Defense and other agencies.

Translation: Under the guise of a stop-gap spending bill that is simply supposed to keep the government running until a long-delayed appropriations process is completed -- probably in November -- the Congress has just approved a massive increase in war funding.

The move was backed by every senator who cast a vote, save one.

Wisconsin Senator Russ Feingold, the maverick Democrat who has led the fight to end the war and bring U.S. troops home from Iraq, was on the losing end of the 94-1 vote. (The five senators who did not vote, all presidential candidates who are more involved in campaigning than governing, were Democrats Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and Joe Biden and Republicans John McCain and Sam Brownback.)

Said Feingold, "I am disappointed that we are about to begin the 2008 fiscal year without having enacted any of the appropriations bills for that year. I am even more disappointed that we voted on a continuing resolution that provides tens of billions of dollars to continue the misguided war in Iraq but does not include any language to bring that war to a close. We need to keep the federal government operating and make sure our brave troops get all the equipment and supplies they need, but we should not be giving the President a blank check to continue a war that is hurting our national security."

In the House, the continuing resolution passed by a vote of 404 to 14, with 14 other members not voting.

The "no" votes in the House, all cast by anti-war members, came from one Republican, Ron Paul of Texas, and 13 Democrats: Oregon's Earl Blumenauer, Missouri's William Clay, Minnesota's Keith Ellison, California's Bob Filner, Massachusetts' Barney Frank, New York's Maurice Hinchey, Ohio's Dennis Kucinich, Washington's Jim McDermott, New Jersey's Donald Payne, California's Barbara Lee, Maxine Waters, Diane Watson and Lynn Woolsey.

That means that, of the 2008 presidential candidates, only Republican Paul and Democrat Kucinich voted against giving the Bush administration a dramatic -- if not particularly well publicized -- infusion of new money for the war.

"Each year this war is getting more and more costly --- both in the amount of money spent and in the number of lives lost. Now this Congress is providing more funds so the administration can continue down a path of destruction and chaos," said Kucinich, who noted the essential role of House and Senate Democratic leaders, such as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, in passing the continuing resolution. "The Democratic leadership in Congress needs to take a stand against this President and say they will not give him any more money. That is the only way to end this war and bring our troops home."

Comments (510)

close vote...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/27/2007 @ 11:54pm
sorry - out of place, but terrible review of the burns series by hayes, i though...

generally like his stuff, like all the folks here, but...

kinda petty criticisms i thought...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 12:03am
from $8.965 trillion to $9.815 trillion

gulp!

wow, i wish i could approve a new debt limit for myself

The move was backed by every senator who cast a vote, save one.,

wait. let me guess. russ. i'm right aren't i?

yep.

bernie sanders voted "yes"!?!?!?!?!?

404 t0 14 [another typo--mr. nichols, don't despair]

404 to 14. yep, representational government.

404/435 = 92.87% of americans support the war.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:04am
Not sure if you know that the figure includes Social Security and Medicare.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/28/2007 @ 12:15am

that sure makes the insanity in iraq even more stupiderest.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:17am
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/28/2007 @ 12:21am

Anti-war voters expecting a Democrat in the White House to get the U.S. completely out of Iraq are.............

...............dreaming in technicolour

and that's just the "combat" troops.

four mega bases and the forbidden city in baghdad aren't going anywhere, either.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:39am
IT'S THE KARMA, STUPID...

I'm going to take a risk with the crowd that posts here and admit that I am a serious believe in karma, which is basically the law of universal payback or "what goes around comes around." If you accept (as I do) this bit of New Age metaphysics, then the U.S. occupation of Iraq makes sense on only two counts. (But first I will note the counts on which it does NOT make sense.)

The Iraq war does NOT make sense, obviously, for any of the stated reasons by the Bush Administration:

1) No Saddam WMDS.

2) No Saddam harboring of terrorsts.

3) No getting rid of a consummate bad guy, Saddam (because there are plenty of

4) No serious threat to the U.S.

5) No oil. (If the invasion had been "for the oil" then where the hell IS the damned oil? Iraq is producing less than it was under Saddam. Cheney & Co. may be trying to MAKE it be "for the oil" but even by their own dim lights they can't be thinking they're succeeding!)

(I'm starting to sound like Dr. Seuss' "I Am Sam" here!)

ERGO (Note the "big ergo"). This leaves the following two real reasons for the U.S. occupation of Iraq....

1) To make the Middle East saf(ER) for Israel. (I and others here have been arguing this for some time.)

AND (drum roll) "metaphysically speaking" (stay with me here):

2) IRAQ IS OUR KARMA FOR VIETNAM.

OK, go ahead, laugh. But consider, there are all kinds of parallels WITH Vietnam, especially with regard to the politics of the war in the U.S. I'm aware there are a lot of non-parallels too but don't you think maybe, just maybe, the parallels that DO exist are trying to tell us something, hmmmmmmmm?....

Posted by w_m_bear at 09/28/2007 @ 01:10am
Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/28/2007 @ 01:10am

AND IF IRAQ IS OUR KARMA FOR VIETNAM...

Just imagine what our karma for Iraq will be like....

Posted by w_m_bear at 09/28/2007 @ 01:15am
DU.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 01:22am
Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/28/2007 @ 01:10am

but what have the iraqi people done?

they've got karma, too.

better yet, karma's got them, too.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 01:58am
They'll be born here and we'll be born there. And so it goes on and on until we choose to stop it.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 02:07am
The repub new con supporters were the killed nazi born here. With war we inherit what we kill.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 02:12am
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/28/2007 @ 02:07am

damn!

does this mean i'll be reborn as HAPPY?!?!?!?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 02:14am
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/28/2007 @ 02:07am

night, dood

btw make sure we've got some fresh poll numbers for the morning.

"No one suspected HSUBFOOLS was the Midnight Pollster--until it was TOO LATE!" [cue diminished chords and cat growling]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 02:22am
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/28/2007 @ 12:21am

I hate to admit Liverlips is right, but in this case, it would appear that he is. The dems who have a chance of making it to the White House have all sold us out even before they have been elected.

Basically we have a choice of electing a republican in democrat clothing (Hilary Clinton) who is more of a secularist or true conservative, or we can end up with some nutcase like Thompson who would continue the bible thumping theocratic state that Bush and his lot a shoved up our asses for the last 7 years.

Wow unto us, the Americans. We have sinned a great sin in the sight of the Lord and shall pay. We have no choice on either side of the isle. We will fight for Israel come hell or high water regardless of what happens to us becuase it says so in the bible and will sink like the Titanic fighting their battles for them.

The leadership we supposedly get to choose from is actually bought and paid for by corporate America before any of them are selected to run for any major office. So, we have the choice of one bought off corrupt official versus another bought off corrupt official. What a system folks.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 07:22am
I voted for the Dems and all I got was this lousy T-shirt. And the T-shirt says "Sucker."

These are the Democrats you get when the lesser-of-two-evils-please-Mr-Nader-don't-run argument wins the day.

Posted by BlueSpark at 09/28/2007 @ 07:55am
Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/28/2007 @ 01:15am | ignore this person

is that Constant Karma, or Karma Chameleon?

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 08:00am
We have sinned a great sin in the sight of the Lord and shall pay.

maybe you should vote for the pope?

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 08:02am
don't like Hillary? vote for Edwards, or Obama. you've got the whole world in your hands.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 08:05am
don't like Hillary? vote for Edwards, or Obama. you've got the whole world in your hands.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 08:05am

We don't have anything but shit in our hands. We need to get out of Iraq, not play politics with friggin war. It's a go, no go thing. Staying in Iraq is no solution.

Also, the pope, especially this one, is full of crap. I am a reformed Cathollic meaning I am not a Catholic any more. I was poking fun at Liverlips and his religious dogma that he often spews here. Now I find myself having to defend my position from the likes of you as well.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 08:17am
We don't have anything but shit in our hands. We need to get out of Iraq, not play politics with friggin war. It's a go, no go thing. Staying in Iraq is no solution.

Also, the pope, especially this one, is full of crap. I am a reformed Cathollic meaning I am not a Catholic any more. I was poking fun at Liverlips and his religious dogma that he often spews here. Now I find myself having to defend my position from the likes of you as well.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 08:17am | ignore this person

you have a choice whether to discuss with the likes of me.

my views on the war have been clear, so I don't know why you threw that up.

I too am a lapsed catholic and that sin jive goes against my grain. the pope remark was poking fun, mildly.

the war in Iraq is a crime, and a catastrophe, not a sin.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 08:30am
by FRANKGRITS 09/28/2007 @ 08:21am | ignore this person

Limbaugh is a scumbag. the Joseph Goebbels of our time.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 08:31am
FRANK has to go off on Limbaugh....because he doesn't want to comment on this article or THIS particular comment in it---

"all presidential candidates who are more involved in campaigning than governing, were Democrats Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama and Joe Biden and Republicans John McCain and Sam Brownback.)"

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 08:53am
from $8.965 trillion to $9.815 trillion

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 12:04am

Not sure if you know that the figure includes Social Security and Medicare.

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/28/2007 @ 12:15am | ignore this person

Not sure if you know that we had a multi-$trillion projected SURPLUS before chimpy took office.

Posted by ahd at 09/28/2007 @ 09:15am
Seems like the anti-war folks are the new 29%er's. Just saying....

Posted by Sliver at 09/28/2007 @ 09:17am
She has also stated that she hopes to have all troops out by the end of her first term. ----Posted by FRANKGRITS 09/28/2007 @ 09:23am |

Is THAT what she said FRANK...or did she say...

"Much of the debate focused on foreign policy. Among the three leaders in the field, none was willing to pledge that all combat forces in Iraq would be gone by the end of the next president's term in 2013.

"It is very difficult to know what we're going to be inheriting," said Clinton."-----Chicago Tribune story

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 09:50am
Posted by SLIVER 09/28/2007 @ 09:17am

And what do you base that on? Fox News/Dynamics out that I haven't seen?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 09:52am
He needs to be removed from the people's airwaves for calling soldiers 'phoney', especially in time of war.

you have heard of free speech?

when people get tired of Rush, he will be gone.

it would be nice if the congress voted to censure this coward, as they did move on.

Frank note that I said censure NOT censor

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 09:55am
Little Johnny ----See where you stand-----you are out of touch even with mainstream democrats----You truly deserve the name Little Johnny the Socialist whore.

Posted by Len Mosse at 09/28/2007 @ 10:21am
Through July, nearly 18 percent of the Army's recruits in this fiscal year were admitted after obtaining waivers for having committed misdemeanors or felonies, having certain medical conditions or having drug or alcohol problems. For all of fiscal 2006, 15 percent of recruits required waivers.

can we now put to rest the myth that the troops are the finest America has to offer.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 10:32am
can we now put to rest the myth that the troops are the finest America has to offer.----Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 10:32am

ROFLMAO!....JR attacks (rightfully) Limbaugh for calling soldiers "phoneys"...

then turns around and tries to paint them all as criminals and drug addicts!

Ya think Dr Smith would EVER realize his own hypocrisy?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 10:38am
I voted for the Dems and all I got was this lousy T-shirt. And the T-shirt says "Sucker."

These are the Democrats you get when the lesser-of-two-evils-please-Mr-Nader-don't-run argument wins the day.

Posted by BLUESPARK

Amen.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 10:41am
i see no problem with a REAL phased iraq pullout that takes up to a year, maybe even two...perhaps 3 IF unforeseen circumstances warrant (but better be real and legit, not just something that freaks out joe lieberman (I) isreal).

we, who effed them up so completely, owe the iraqis something, and logistically speaking i'm guessing that anything less than six months would be dangerous and practically impossible.

but barring something crazy, i cant see how it should take more than a year, combined with real diplomatic initiatives.

but eff that gd lying treasonous traitor, joe lieberman, (i) israel...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:05am
Posted by ZERO

Yeah it is. Chickenshits--all of them. Disgraceful louts, trying to have it both ways.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:06am
Israel did not invade Iraq. Israel is however waging a low scale war against those who wage a low scale war against them, with many innocents caught in between. my guess is that with a less blood thirsty regime here, the Israelis will choose a more moderate path. Americans are in no position to scold Israel.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 11:07am
Israel did not invade Iraq. Israel is however waging a low scale war against those who wage a low scale war against them, with many innocents caught in between. my guess is that with a less blood thirsty regime here, the Israelis will choose a more moderate path. Americans are in no position to scold Israel.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 11:08am
Israel did not invade Iraq. Israel is however waging a low scale war against those who wage a low scale war against them, with many innocents caught in between. my guess is that with a less blood thirsty regime here, the Israelis will choose a more moderate path. Americans are in no position to scold Israel.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 11:08am | ignore this person

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 11:09am
sorry for the repost. the thread is playing tricks.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 11:09am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF

Israel is at the root of the US's problems in the Middle East. The US sponsorship, the incestuous relationship with Israel is undeniable, unmistakable, and until the US is willing to deal with the Palestinian-Israeli conflict in a truly impartial manner there will continue to be radical elements in the ME that are inimical to US interests and the interests of US client states in the region.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:37am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF

Was there not pressure from AIPAC and others within the US for an invasion of Iraq?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:43am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 11:09am |

i support "the state of israel" and its right to "defend itself" its right to exist 100%.

the reason i use quotations here is to differentiate "state of isreal" from israel's hardline right and senator joe lieberman, (i) israel, and "defend itself" from certain actions that i would argue go far beyond "defend itself".

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:46am
actually i would classify joe's political affiliation as "likud"...not independent in any way imaginable. treasonous slime...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:49am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF

Was there not pressure from AIPAC and others within the US for an invasion of Iraq?

Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 11:43am | ignore this person

no doubt there was,the extent of which is not known by me, but the war was instigated and voted on by 100% Americans. the populace was attacked and lied to, and supported the war 70%.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 11:50am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE

What about Israeli policies in regards to the Palestinians that amount to apartheid and goes without graphic description here in the US?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:50am
Posted by JOHANNESROLF

And how influential--powerful--is AIPAC, et al., in US politics?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:51am
Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 11:51am

Empty beginning his short march to RESE-land.

Another year and he'll have Mossad agents planting thermite in Building 7!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 11:56am
Posted by MARY

Don't get me started up on you, mary.

Are you in complete denial of Israel's influence on US ME policies. What other explanation is there, mary?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:00pm
Why is the treatment meted out to Palestinians by the Israeli government not given the time, detail by the US press that it would be if any other nation was guilty of such behavior?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:02pm
It Is Truely A Shame - Our President Wants To Go Down In History At The Expense Of Destroying The United States And All We Believe In. Twisted Ideals Of Running The World. Globalization - Wether It Be Trade or Free Enterprise - An Attempt To Prevent Wars By Making It Impossible Because Of Trade - ONLY IDIOTS IN WASHINGTON BELIEVE IT WILL WORK. DESTROY Social Security - put the work force into the third world of slavery. Health Care Is ONLY For The Rich (CONGRESS-SENATE). The Governor of New Jersey Got Good Health Care didn't He???

Posted by bbednarz at 09/28/2007 @ 12:02pm
Question: Where's the billions coming from? Taxes? Haha!

Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 09:30am

out of the thinnest of air

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:06pm
the occupation of the west bank is brutal to be sure. look however what happens when Israel withdraws its occupation as it did in Gaza. the territory becomes a launch pad for rockets fired into Israel at civilian targets. again, Americans have no moral high ground from which to preach.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:09pm
Why is the treatment meted out to Palestinians by the Israeli government not given the time, detail by the US press that it would be if any other nation was guilty of such behavior?

Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:02pm | ignore this person

there are many places on earth where such conditions exist. sometimes the US supports the brutality, sometimes it just ignores it. I don't know of any instance where the Bush regime was helpful.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:12pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 11:46am

if i say the government of burma sucks, no one accuses me of being anti-buddist.

if i say the government of iran sucks, no one accuses me of being anti-muslim.

if i say the government of canada sucks, no one accuses me of being anti-christian.

if i say the government of san lorenzo sucks, no one accuses me of being anti-bokononist.

but..........

if i say the government of israel sucks, everyone accuses me of being anti-semite.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:15pm
Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:02pm |

its a terrible dilema...indeed israel's treatent of plestinians is nasty...but...

every time they elect someone centrist and reasonable who tries to ratchet down tensions to a level where something constructive becomes concievable...

some gd palestinian terrorists go all "death to zionist israel!", blow up a bus full of israeli kindergarteners and little old ladies, israel reverts to intransigence, and then the palestinian fanatics scream "evil israel! persecution! destroy israel!"

and, unfortunately enough palestinians jump on board, take to the streets shouting "death to israel", to assure a new pack of rightwing zionist fascists regain control in israel to assure another generation of horrid conflict.

i definately think a certain reactionary pseudo fascist eleent in israel will indeed ever use the holocaust as an evil enabling excuse, but i also think a huge segment of the arab/islamic world are anti-semitic genocidal psuedo-islamo-fascists whose hatred enables the zio-fascists...

good sign...the palestinian people are growing weary...a strong peace initiative on the part of some future non-neocon american pres who tells the american likud of liebermans to go screw itself, might be able to set soething decent in motion over there...

but not chimpy mcushmouth and his handlers...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 12:17pm
Posted by LEN MOSSE 09/28/2007 @ 10:21am

sleep with us dogs, and ye shall receive the most whorish of fleas.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:17pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 10:32am

you're going to have to do the same for presidential candidates.

President John Dean, anyone?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:19pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 10:32am

you're going to have to do the same for presidential candidates.

President John Dean, anyone?

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 12:19pm | ignore this person

this must have been on another thread.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:22pm
What about Israeli policies in regards to the Palestinians that amount to apartheid and goes without graphic description here in the US?

Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 11:50am

i find it ironic that the government of israel justifies its existance by carrying out many of the same policies, albeit on not such a gruesome scale, as those that led to its creation.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:22pm
the occupation of the west bank is brutal to be sure. look however what happens when Israel withdraws its occupation as it did in Gaza. the territory becomes a launch pad for rockets fired into Israel at civilian targets. again, Americans have no moral high ground from which to preach.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF

Yeah, well, that's what happens when you radicalize people. If Israel ever wants peace, then it will have to suck it up, do the right thing and reap the harvest they have sown.

No other nation in the ME is going to attack Israel. Israel has nuclear weapons and its neighbors understand the result of attacking. At the same time, these neighbors recognize the hypocrisy of US policy inregards to tolerating (some would say condoning, encouraging) a nuclear armed Israel while denying nuclear weapons to Arab, Muslim states.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:25pm
but i also think a huge segment of the arab/islamic world are anti-semitic genocidal psuedo-islamo-fascists whose hatred enables the zio-fascists...

by IBBELBLELBLIELBELEBLE

have to disagree. i actually think the percentage is rather small.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:25pm
" Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/28/2007 @ 01:10am

AND IF IRAQ IS OUR KARMA FOR VIETNAM...

Just imagine what our karma for Iraq will be like....

Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/28/2007 @ 01:15am

Our karma is having Hillary in the WH and the current crop of dems in control of congress...thats our karma for Iraq..

Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm
Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:25pm | ignore this person

that is why I have no problem with Iran acquiring a nuke. Pakistan, which is far more unstable than Iran has one. they also spread that technology around, something Iran and Saddam were accused of, before they even had one.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm
Our karma is having Hillary in the WH and the current crop of dems in control of congress...thats our karma for Iraq..

Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm | ignore this person

of course you ignore the huge human and ruinous financial cost. get your head out of the sand.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:30pm
What other explanation is there, mary?----Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:00pm

That American politicians BELIEVE that Israel is our ally and as one of the few democracies in the ME, needs our support.

But see, that doesn't work in the mind of an ideologue such as yourself.

You're the same, Empty...the same as the RIOs and the LVLIBs who see "the Other" (in their case the Muslims, of all stripes) as the reason for America not being safe or what it should be. In your case and the case of what Ari Berman called "the reflexively anti-Israel left"...it's "AIPAC". Same theory, different names.

To you it JUST CAN'T be that Democrats (as well as Repubs of course) ACTUALLY BELIEVE in supporting Israel or in deciding to go to war against Iraq due to Bush's tales of WMDs and Al Qaeda connections (and the ease of the 1991 war)...

No, it's GOT to be the nefarious machinations of the Israeli lobby using their money and influence to manipulate US foreign policy.

And later, as you dig deeper and deeper, you'll start to "put the pieces together" and realize that "since they were the ones behind us getting into Iraq" then maybe...just maybe "they had SOMETHING to do with 9/11"....a few months (and some diligent Internet reserach) after that...

12 in succession 3000 word Cut & Pastes from www.zionistmindcontrol.com...heheh

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 12:32pm
i find it ironic that the government of israel justifies its existance by carrying out many of the same policies, albeit on not such a gruesome scale, as those that led to its creation.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM

It's extremely complicated. And, to be honest, I can empathize with Israel to a certain extent (at least until the '67 war). However, the foreign policy of the US should act in the best interests of the US.

If you treat a population as second class citizens you radicalize it; hate is difficult to defeat; violence begets violence.

The US should act as an impartial party in the resolution of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict or allow other impartial, reputable nations to moderate the efforts necessary by both side.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:33pm
Posted by MARY

Ideologue? No, I'm suggesting merely a pragmatic approach that is in the best interests of the US.

A democracy you say? The Israelis practise a form of apartheid against the Palestinians. All other Arab, Muslim nations understand, appreciate this fact. And as US history amply demonstrates, democracies are capable of all sorts or reprehensible acts.

There will be no peace in the ME until the Palestinian issue is resolved. The interests of the US in the ME will be in jeopardy as long as there is conflict in the region.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:37pm
that is why I have no problem with Iran acquiring a nuke. Pakistan, which is far more unstable than Iran has one. they also spread that technology around, something Iran and Saddam were accused of, before they even had one.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF

I watched Charlie Rose interview the Saudi Foreign Minister the other day. The prince said that a nuclear armed Iran cannot be tolerated. He also said a US attack on Iran cannot be tolerated.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:40pm
Posted by MARY

Always jumping to conclusions, attempting to put thoughts in the minds of others, words in the mouths of others. You're full of shit, mary.

Why is it again that I'm supposed to vote Dem? So the cowards can go AWOL when a crucial vote in the Senate comes up?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:42pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 12:25pm

well...a huge portion of their polity uses such rhetoric to inflame their own peeps (to ignore the iniquity of their own governments) i would say...

but of course, many would prefer to follow the egyptian government's example viv-a-vis israel...

although...

one reason the egyptian governent has had to resort to less than democratic repression is the presence of strong, radical, POPULIST, "death to israel" fanatic islamicist propaganda...

i've taken the "israel sux/palestinians just poor persecuted" line before, myself...

only to wince at the blowing up of busloads of israeli kindergartener/old ladies followed by "death to israel/yay hitler" bullcrap from the poor persecuted palestinians...

i think there are detestable types on both sides of that conflict who unfortunately trump the (majority) of decent types every tie, eventually.

why we need a pres to "jimmy carter" the situation...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 12:43pm
Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:40pm | ignore this person

Saudis have no cred with me.It is they who are, withe the US, are responsible for the 9/11 attack. they could have refused the stationing of US troops, the casus belli for Osama. this in addition to most of the attackers being Saudis.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 12:43pm
12 in succession 3000 word Cut & Pastes from www.zionistmindcontrol.com...heheh

Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 12:32pm

*sigh*

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 12:46pm
Our karma is having Hillary in the WH and the current crop of dems in control of congress...thats our karma for Iraq..

Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm

damn, i have to vote in the provincial election in october.

i'm gonna be really careful with that pencil (yes, pencil)

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:46pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF

The interview was informing. The prince discussed the situation in Iraq, the ME, in terms you do not see in the US mainstream media. There was no silly talk of democracy or any of the other bs; the prince was straight forward, realistic, candid. Credible or not, the House of Saud is running Saudi Arabia; they have their own agenda that US policy must take into consideration.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 12:47pm
that is why I have no problem with Iran acquiring a nuke. Pakistan, which is far more unstable than Iran has one. they also spread that technology around, something Iran and Saddam were accused of, before they even had one.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm

looks like somebody had a good breakfast today

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:48pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm

looks like somebody had a good breakfast today

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 12:48pm

oops. i got mixed up and thought, MAASCH wrote that one, too.

it seems YOU have a good breakfast most everyday!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:51pm
If you treat a population as second class citizens you radicalize it; hate is difficult to defeat; violence begets violence.

Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:33pm

yep. detroit 1967

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:53pm
There will be no peace in the ME until the Palestinian issue is resolved. The interests of the US in the ME will be in jeopardy as long as there is conflict in the region.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:54pm
There will be no peace in the ME until the Palestinian issue is resolved. The interests of the US in the ME will be in jeopardy as long as there is conflict in the region.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 12:55pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 12:43pm

people are people.

they truly want a life where they CAN be truly apathetic to politics.

they want to work, listen to tunes, have dinner with their folks, and watch the u.s. lose another soccer game.

they don't want to blow anybody up.

i read about a study where they put two people face to face. person A was asked to push the hand of person B.

person B was asked to reciprocate the push with equal force. however, person B generally pushed back with 10% more force. and when person A was asked to return B's push another 10% was added.

and so on.........................

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 1:01pm
Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 12:37pm

Two different topics, Empty. One is about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

The other was your ORIGINAL premise about "AIPAC controlling our foreign policy and the Democrats". But this doesn't make total sense.

Why would the Dems do things like ...keep supporting Bush on wiretaps? How does THAT "help Israel"? Why criticize General Petraeus at the hearing, if they are "in the pocket of AIPAC"? Why do they NOT ALL sound like Joe Lieberman, if that lobby is "controlling everything"?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 1:14pm
I think many of you are getting carried away. All of the Democratic candidates have committed to ending the war, if elected. Even Hillary Clinton. This is a much different than a promise that every single American troop will be out of Iraq in five years -- which was the question Russert posed.

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 1:15pm
Take a deep breath everyone. Shoot, ZERO is even threatening to vote Republican. Talk about throwing the baby out with the bath water.

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 1:17pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 1:24pm

Please explain it to HAPPY, who seems to think we can sink OVER a HALF TRILLION (or more) into Iraq and no-harm-no-foul for our long range fiscal health!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 1:34pm
Posted by HMAN23 09/28/2007 @ 1:15pm

no no no! if every swinging weenie aint out within 3 months of the inevitable (!?) democratic triumph of everything good and decent...they're warmongers!!!!

sure...leave the equipment behind and skeedadle immediately regardless of any new, unforseen developments which may arise or...

may as well vote republican!

absurd. personally i think we COULD, all other factors equal, responsibly withdraw within six months to a year, based on the implementation of a major international peace process within a month of some dem assuming the presidency.

but kucinich's claptrap is absurd.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 1:36pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 1:43pm

ZERO thinks that????? Naaaahhh!!!!! Where do you get that?

Look, ZERO's been beating that horse for as long as I've been coming here. But, lately he's upped the ante from voting third-party or not at all to voting GOP - check out the threads re: Clinton's health care proposal.

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 1:53pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 1:38pm | ignore this person

I'll explain. I have often railed against the idea that soldiers are the peak of civilization. even the good ones, do not in my opinion rise to level say of doctors without borders,or hospice workers who counsel the dying, or lawyers who take unpopular causes. this is not a smear of soldiers. I feel the same way about cops. I hold firemen in higher regard. this is my opinion. the fact that we take soldiers we never would have before is an indictment of the regime, not of the ones who volunteered. you know that I come from two families of soldiers, on my mother's side, and on my stepfather's. my rejection of militarism is obviously a big factor in this. when I say that A is better than B, it should not be considered a smear of B. Verstehst?

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 2:01pm
Frei, my hatred of Bush has little to do with it. I'm not enthralled with the Bundeswehr either.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 2:02pm
We are all fools to put our trust wholly in anyone but politicians.

Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 1:57pm | ignore this person

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 2:15pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 1:57pm

I agree and I don't. I think some here take a 180 on that and get a little hysterical is all.

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 2:15pm
Stop paying taxes. I have and I won't pay another dime until I have representation that will be accountable to the American citizens and the taxpayers. Time for us to take control and money controls the power.

Posted by Sinatra at 09/28/2007 @ 2:21pm
Our karma is having Hillary in the WH and the current crop of dems in control of congress...thats our karma for Iraq..

Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm | ignore this person

No criticism for the Republicans? Do you think the dems alone got us into this mess? Are you a totally partisan hack?

Posted by ahd at 09/28/2007 @ 2:29pm
Frei, one more thing. you have seen the pictures of the WTC in ruins after the attack. well "my" entire country looked like that. it is the worship of soldiers and of militarism that is culpable. I for one refuse to genuflect at the sight of a uniform.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 2:36pm
AHD -

Please pose that question to ZERO, would 'ya?

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 2:54pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 12:28pm

ROSALIND

.... make the doors upon a blogger's

wit and it will out at the casement; shut that and

'twill out at the key-hole; stop that, 'twill fly

with the smoke out at the chimney.

GRATIANO

Thanks, i' faith, for silence is only commendable

In a neat's tongue dried and a maid not vendible.

QUEEN KATHARINE

Turn me away; and let the foul'st contempt

Shut door upon me, and so give me up

To the sharp'st kind of justice

FROSTY ZOOM

an ignore for an ignore will only lead us to a world of mirrors

Verstehst du mich?

Posted by frosted zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 3:04pm
I have and I won't pay another dime until I have representation that will be accountable to the American citizens and the taxpayers. ----Posted by SINATRA 09/28/2007 @ 2:21pm

Sorry, but....I don't believe you. Maybe you're not making enough money and are getting in on the EITC....but you're paying your taxes, otherwise you'd be off in a Ted Kczinski cabin somewhere, not on the Internet.

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 3:25pm
So much for the stanch "Defund, Cut, and Run" crowd of the U.S.A. congress and their leftwingnut supporters! ----Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 3:17pm

and 70% of the country RIO....unless you have some fresh polling?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 3:25pm
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 3:25pm

one thing i've learned in this crazy ol' world...

dont mess with the irs...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 3:32pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 3:41pm

RIO...happy to be proven wrong. Or do you just like to IMAGINE that the majority of the country feels as you do (and not the opposite)?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 3:47pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 3:32pm

Exactly. Like all those "Pay No Taxes" guys who appear on Art Bell or sometimes right-wing radio late at night and go into mountains of discourse as to how "the 16th Amendment is purely voluntary".

Then later you find some news story about how they get hauled into tax court and pay up (plus fines)...or, even better, how they WERE paying their taxes the whole time!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 3:50pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 3:47pm

Careful FREI....the Devil, that proud fellow, is not mocked!

Get too snippy with the Professor and he'll kick you out of "his class"!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 3:51pm
Well spoken as Moveon's leftcoast representative and another extremist who blames the U.S.A. for 9-11!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 3:21pm

actually, he only partially blames the u.s.

are terrorists attacking new zealand or senegal?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 3:53pm
dont mess with the irs...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 3:32pm

nor death..................

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 3:55pm
Reply to Mask from Sinatra I am a contract worker so I control my own funds and I am a six figure wage earner. Ted Kacinski's cabin is not for rent at the moment.

Posted by Sinatra at 09/28/2007 @ 3:56pm
Posted by MARY

Controlling our policies and exercising influence are two different thing, dumbass. The usual twisting bs.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 3:58pm
NOBEL PEACE PRIZE FOR THE MONKS IN BURMA

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 4:02pm
Mask, Haha! True enough!

I'm actually a huge Johannesrolf fan and consider him a friend. I worry he's developed carpal tunnel syndrome slamming me onto his ignore list so many times though.

Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 3:55pm

well, maybe you can ask him what he thought of FROSTED ZOOM'S comments from today.

i'm still a fan, and still consider him a friend.

alas..................

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:06pm
Reply to Mask from Sinatra I am a contract worker so I control my own funds and I am a six figure wage earner. Ted Kacinski's cabin is not for rent at the moment.

Posted by SINATRA 09/28/2007 @ 3:56pm

well then, pay your friggin' taxes. you want change, it ain't gonna happen if the police and fire department go out of business.

i wince every time i pay taxes because i know some of it is going to fund a war in afghanistan i find sickening.

yet i do enjoy roads, and hospitals, and schools, and the cbc, and many more things, too.

so if you don't wanna pay, then don't use the stuff.

make your own.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:10pm
Reply to Freiheit Please review attached link: http://www.supremelaw.org/sls/31answers.htm

Posted by Sinatra at 09/28/2007 @ 4:11pm
Reply to Frosty Zoom: Clarification: I don't pay Federal income tax, I do pay state taxes and my city property taxes as it funds the needs of the community.Please see link: http://www.supremelaw.org/sls/31answers.htm

Posted by Sinatra at 09/28/2007 @ 4:16pm
Posted by FREIHEIT 09/28/2007 @ 3:42pm | ignore this person

I blame militarism, not individual soldiers. as I mentioned all my male family members have been or are soldiers.

I do not take kindly to be a subject of ridicule between you and mask. you have come back from the no read zone, something that will never happen to mask, but don't push it.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 4:24pm
sinatra:

do you agree with this:

"What we uncovered has clearly been designed to circumvent the limitations of the Constitution for the United States of America and to implement the Communist Manifesto within the 50 States. Marx and Engels claimed that, in the effort to create a classless society, a "graduated income tax" could be used as a weapon to destroy the middle class."

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/cooper/cooper.htm

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:27pm
Johannesrolf, politicians, not soldiers who enable war.

militarism infects more than just soldiers and politicians, though there is a symbiotic relationship between the two. that I abhor.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 4:27pm
Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 4:24pm

well?

Posted by frosted zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:29pm
Posted by SINATRA 09/28/2007 @ 3:56pm

Well good luck to you Ol Blue Eyes...cuz the wheels of them Revenuers grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 4:37pm
But, if there is opportunity for that and their success in changing their "nation of oppression" you can bet that hangers on of the likes of Jimmeny Peanut, Jackson and Sharpton will try to find a way to squeeze some personal glory out of the situation even with NOTHING vested in the struggle!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 4:35pm

RIO (peace be upon you)

more people listen to them than will ever listen to you. so if they throw in their two cents for a good cause,

god bless them

Posted by frosted zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:37pm
...but don't push it.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 4:24pm

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!!!

LOL!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 4:38pm
"What we uncovered has clearly been designed to circumvent the limitations of the Constitution for the United States of America and to implement the Communist Manifesto within the 50 States. Marx and Engels claimed that, in the effort to create a classless society, a "graduated income tax" could be used as a weapon to destroy the middle class."

http://www.supremelaw.org/authors/cooper/cooper.htm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM

Around the Constitution? An admendment was passed.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:39pm
Well good luck to you Ol Blue Eyes...cuz the wheels of them Revenuers grind slowly, but they grind exceedingly fine!

Posted by MASK

And they will lock your ass up, too. I did time with people that tried to fight the income tax.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:40pm
Posted by FROSTED ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 4:37pm

sorry RIO, that should say FROSTY ZOOM

the FROSTED incarnation (indigitation?) exist only for anti-ignore purposes. (and many, many more can be created, JR)

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:40pm
.....no-harm-no-foul for our long range fiscal health!

Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 1:34pm

"long range fiscal health"....just the `opening' I need to get in something I read about the UAW & GM yesterday WSJ, Pages A1 & 14).....whether the deal gets passed or not by the union members will have huge ramifications!! HOW did GM (& UAW) get to where they are today:

1935 - UAW formed

1950 - First health-care benefit negotiated w/GM agreeing to pay half for workers AND family members

1961 - UAW won FULL health-care coverage for ACTIVE workers AND half coverage for Retirees

1964 - FULL h-c coverage extended also to Retirees

1967 - FULL h-c coverage extended to surviving spouses

1970 - UAW members won the right to retire after 30 years AND added prescription-drug benefits

GM's labor cost today is ~ $73 per hour

GM's UAW workers today number 74,000 (had 246,000 in 1994)

GM today, provides h-c benefits to 340,000 Retirees and surviving spouse

2/3 of GM's Active workers could retire in the next 5 years (w/30-yr tenures)

It should be obvious on the eerie similarities between the benefit expansions UAW `negotiated' for decades and the way OUR Gov't deals with entitlements (the SCHIP program expansion now in Congress is Exhibit A)! Why pay for it today when you can shove it far into the future (when out of management/office)!

When GM (= overall US economy) loses competitiveness, its workers/dependents/stockholders (= Americans) suffer. The very sharp cutbacks being proposed to the UAW now, serve well as a precursor of what's to come for all of us, if we do NOT grow our economy. NEVER, EVER trust politicians....take care of your own finances!

Posted by Happy at 09/28/2007 @ 4:41pm
MASK, someone else has joined us.

guess who?

no peeking

on second thought, I will no longer read you.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 4:20pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:43pm
And they will lock your ass up, too. I did time with people that tried to fight the income tax.

Posted by MTSPENCE05 09/28/2007 @ 4:40pm

and look up it, too!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:44pm
Posted by HAPPY 09/28/2007 @ 4:41pm

guess that means more jobs for canada.

here we all share the health care costs.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 4:45pm
and look up it, too!

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM

You got that right. Who would want a job like that?

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:46pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO

If anyone is qualified to speak of what fools do, rio bozo is.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:47pm
This is for our right wing chicken hawk chair bourn rangers....You want to really support our troops? How about getting them the hell out of Iraq. That's a lot safer than any body armour or some $500,000 vehicle supposedly safe against IED.

I actually have a better idea though for supporting our troops. How about we let our volunteer troops do the detail work protecting big wheels in the green zone and securing areas like that while we let Black Water jackasses go into the hot zones and really get to play army.

That way, that friggin mercenary companies can also pay out some of their great profits in the form of insurance benefits for families of the deceased mercenaries. Hey, they want to profit off war, the should get to play war for real and deal with paying for the deaths their business is responsible for.

Every business has liabilities and that is one in the mercenary business. It least it's one the U.S. army deals with. Any takers on the idea?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:54pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO

Yeah, right, an inmate is gonna have access to the internet. That's all in the past. I am free and clear of paper.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:54pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO

Bozo was gonna try and rat me out.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 4:59pm
Islamofascist? Rio bozo's been listening to that fat drug addict again.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 5:01pm
are kings in the myopic world of "the ignore zone" where never is heard a discouraging word and the skys are not cloudy all day!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 4:49pm

wow rio, my respects

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 5:04pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 4:35pm | ignore this person

seems hard to think of anyone who deserves it more, them and the house arrested leader of the opposition

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 5:17pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO

It's funny how they never want to admit it.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 5:22pm
I actually have a better idea though for supporting our troops. How about we let our volunteer troops do the detail work protecting big wheels in the green zone and securing areas like that while we let Black Water jackasses go into the hot zones and really get to play army.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 4:54pm

not bad. the problem is that innocent iraqis would be the ones paying the price.

it's hard enough when you've got culturally ignorant g.i.'s bustin' down your door at 3 am.

imagine what they'd have to go through i blackwater came a-knocking.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 5:39pm
MT -

LOL. Great point. It's amazing that Rush's numbers are in the millions, yet none of the wingers here listen to him.

Posted by Hman23 at 09/28/2007 @ 5:42pm
LOL. Great point. It's amazing that Rush's numbers are in the millions, yet none of the wingers here listen to him.

Posted by HMAN23 09/28/2007 @ 5:42pm

well, i listen to him. it's the most morbid i get. i don't believe a word he spews. hey, look, i see he's been divorced three times. wow, now there is a man of family values.

no kids, thank god.

i think that maybe our more conservative friends really don't listen to Rush. the fact that they show up here, as opposed to say, CRUSHTHEAMERICAHATINGLEFT.COM, says something.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 6:01pm
...yet none of the wingers here listen to him.

Posted by HMAN23 09/28/2007 @ 5:42pm

Not so.....while I don't tune in while in my home office, I always listen when I am out driving around when Rush is on.....in 10 minute bits and bites....Rush doesn't much influence the Righties who are `connected'...he echos much of my views since I usually already know the `issues of the day' by the time I head out (lunch and errands at mid-day)....

RUSH IS FUNNY...far more than Hannity & Ingram.....and worth his weight in platinum to the Right! I'm sure he is looking forward to HRC's candidacy! I'm sure RUSH just drives the occasional Left listeners absolutely crazy......hehhehehe :)))))

Posted by Happy at 09/28/2007 @ 6:14pm
Posted by HAPPY

Yeah, you're so well informed, it's obvious for all to read.

Posted by mtspence05 at 09/28/2007 @ 6:15pm
"West Chester, Pa.: History seems to be repeating it self as the drumbeat for war with Iran, based on accusations not backed up by any facts, intensifies. Do you think the Bush administration will launch a war (perhaps sending only the bombers) against Iran and if they do what are the likely consequences for the Middle East?

Dana Priest: Frankly, I think the military would revolt and there would be no pilots to fly those missions. This is a little bit of hyberpole, but not much. Just look at what Gen. Casey, the Army chief, said yesterday. That the tempo of operations in Iraq would make it very hard for the military to respond to a major crisis elsewhere. Beside, it's not the "war" or "bombing" part that's difficult; it's the morning after and all the days after that. Haven't we learned that (again) from Iraq?"

http://tinyurl.com/3d2c9q

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 7:14pm
http://tinyurl.com/2olxwz

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 7:22pm
Not so fast...

http://www.halturnershow.com/Iraq73000USTroopsKilled.html

http://www1.va.gov/rac-gwvi/docs/GWVIS_May2007.pdf

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 7:30pm
"WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said Friday that every child born in the United States should get a $5,000 "baby bond" from the government to help pay for future costs of college or buying a home.'

Must be one of Franks ideas...I'll bet groups all accross the US are planning a "fucking" season as we speak..after all, some many are oppressed.

NOW, if she ties it to ,

1. Only familys with 2 parents intact, meaning, working on the marraiage and living at home WITH a job.

2. ONLY leagal Americans citzens can apply.

3. You must be a tax payer, er, will that be a tax refund? or cut?

In that case...never mind.

Posted by john maasch at 09/28/2007 @ 8:04pm
DU from the '60's? Or is it just spreading around and around... Heard it was already in England, Europe, etc.

http://tinyurl.com/2hwdyw

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 8:14pm
http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m33364&hd=&size=1&l=e

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 8:16pm
Hey HSUB...

found a great book by one of the writers here at "The Nation"...you need to check it out.

Just go to amazon.com and Search "Alexander Cockburn" and "Gore"!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 8:17pm
It's just keeps adding up:

http://www.mediamonitors.net/heller4.html

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18242.htm

http://la.indymedia.org/news/2007/09/207829.php

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 8:34pm
Hey Frita, it doesn't read as bad as 'hsuB on a Sloutch'.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/28/2007 @ 8:38pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/28/2007 @ 8:38pm

You read "Al Gore: A User's Manual"?!?!?!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 8:51pm
i see no problem with a REAL phased iraq pullout that takes up to a year, maybe even two...perhaps 3 IF unforeseen circumstances warrant ..... we, who effed them up so completely, owe the iraqis something, and logistically speaking i'm guessing that anything less than six months would be dangerous and practically impossible..."

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 11:05am

And that's the rub Ibbie. For you, unlike most of the anti-warites here, can't lie to yourself. You could only say those things if you had a sneaking suspicion that the US military may just, possibly, perhaps make things better by staying.

Perhaps the Dem candidates also have a gut feeling about the next few years. If the thing really turns around in the next 12 months and that is a possibility, they can all kiss the WH goodbye.

Hate to say this about your fellow countrymen, but like mine, I'll bet a winner always trumps a loser.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/28/2007 @ 9:15pm
If the thing really turns around in the next 12 months and that is a possibility, they can all kiss the WH goodbye.----Posted by LRJONES4 09/28/2007 @ 9:15pm

Curious, LRJ....why didn't it "turn around" ...12 months AGO...or 24...or 36...or 48?

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 9:26pm
You and the former ruler of Iraq have so much in common, but he only paid $25,000. to the families of islamicfacist suicide bombers! Guess you would rather up the ante for non-religious capitalistic based zealotry!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 4:59pm

Rio,

You really are a serious block of shit. How does my suggestion of letting private corporations like Blackwater actually take on the real battle make me comparable to Sadam?

Here's the thing. Assholes like yourself follow idiots like Bush who wish to privatize everything. So, let's privatize this war. The oil companies are the ones pushing the damn thing in the first place. So, why not let the bastards pay for it instead of the American tax payer? We can do like major league baseball and the NFL do. At the beginning of each news cast they can say, "this war is brought to you by Exxon, Chevron, Shell etc.

Why not let these oil companies hire Blackwater mercs to do their fighting for them. At least then, both the oil companies and Blackwater would really have something at stake if they don't win.

In this case, I think we should let the free market fight the war an see just how well capitalism does in warefare all on it's own without the aid of millions of tax payer dollars.

Rio, you are the communist here, not me or my fellow dems posting here. You are the one who wishes our government military (communistic or socialistic system) to go over and fight a war for private companies. Bush wants to privatize social security. HOw about we privatize this war completely and relieve the federal government of Bush's major F up.

P.S. I served in the U.S. armed forces and was honorably discharged Rio, did you?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 9:40pm
Sorry error there, I really meant billions of dollars.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 9:44pm
We could use 9 billion dollars to do some significant healing among our under / un-insured nation, but instead we choose to spend it to continue to wage war. Ironic.

Posted by bohnman at 09/28/2007 @ 9:46pm
Don't listen to radio, no cable, no dish, only tv air channels, Independent registared voter, conservative christian (who is a little too opinionated at times)but, utterly open and candid! (and those are my good qualities) Oh, and I ONLY hate blatant lies, not the liars! I doubt many are that honest about themselves!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 5:17pm

Rio is about as open as a Faraday cage....electromagnetically speaking.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 9:49pm
Curious, LRJ....why didn't it "turn around" ...12 months AGO...or 24...or 36...or 48?

Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 9:26pm

that's why i don't have you on ignore

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 9:51pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 9:40pm

actually, i imagine the oil companies have been hiring mercenaries for a long time.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 9:53pm
Posted by LRJONES4 09/28/2007 @ 9:15pm

actually, croc...

i still dont think much progress will be made by us in an acceptable amount of time. look at how long the palestine thing has gone on.

no - i just say that i think

1. it would be logistically impossible to leave in less than 4-5 months...

2. and in that it would take at LEAST a month to set up a peace conference...therefore no less than 6 months

but knowing politics...6 months of negotiation is more realistic, starting 3 to 6 months after jan 20, 09...thats 9 - 12 months...then 6 months to actually get the hell out...at least...

so 15 - 18 months after a new president to actually disentangle...and knowing politics, like construction estimates...lets add 3 more months...so 18-21 months after jan 09...sometime in 10 or 11...

i want out yesterday...but i dont see improvement in iraq until at least they know we will be getting out...

i think we lost when we went in.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:01pm
i think we lost when we went in.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:01pm

lost a lot more that a war.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:05pm
that = than

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm
not bad. the problem is that innocent iraqis would be the ones paying the price.

it's hard enough when you've got culturally ignorant g.i.'s bustin' down your door at 3 am.

imagine what they'd have to go through i blackwater came a-knocking.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 5:39pm

Frosty,

You are correct that the Blackwater mercs would start off that way. That's what happens when you turn rednecks loose with M-16's, Uzi's and all of the neat little toys they like to play soldier with.

But, when they are outnumbered, don't have armored vehicles because the expense of vehicle and body armor would cut into their (companies like Blackwater) bottom line, they'd send these fat soldier wannabees into a hornets nest. Blackwater is about profit and profit alone. War is not a profitable enterprise in itself. It's only profitable to those who dupe the rest of their nation into paying into that war. Then yes, it's worth millions and billions to the companies that "back" the war.

Most of these Blackwater guys would crap there pants and find a new job. I am aware that some of them are from the ranks of the special forces units in the military, but I highly doubt all of them are.

Probably the commanders and the guys calling the shots are from the special forces and possibly even the CIA, but the guys walking around with the wrap around sun glasses, a beer gut and a vest probably aren't. You don't see fat special forces dudes running around and that is mostly what I see when they show the Blackwater mercs.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm
Posted by LRJONES4 09/28/2007 @ 9:15pm

by the way - bush is not exactly seen as a big winner anymore...weener maybe...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm
actually, i imagine the oil companies have been hiring mercenaries for a long time.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/28/2007 @ 9:53pm

Oh, they have definitely been in the merc business. No doubt you've heard of the death squads the oil companies run. But, using a few special forces guys to scare the crap out of a local tribe and back a corrupt dictator is much different than waging an almost full scale war. Special forces operate behind the lines, they don't take units head on per say.

They are trained to catch the enemy off gaurd, do a mission and get the hell out of there. They don't hang around to secure an area. That is what the 82nd and 101st are for. The marines are of course called in when high casualty rates are highly likely. The DOD likes to waste money, but not on their cream of the crop.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 10:13pm
and again...but for the diversion of resources to iraq...who knows? a couple more infantry divisions and a marine division on the ground in tora bora to seal the cordon instead of outsourcing to sketchy afghan warlords and i'm pretty damned sure we would have strung up bin laden long ago...

you know...the guy who attacked us...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:15pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm

fallujah comes to mind.

the people were so incensed by the presence of these blackwater goons.....

.........so, the u.s. military stepped in (a few months later, after the election, of course) and showered the town with phosphorus (you don't want to see the photos)

operation phantom fury [what a stoopid frikkin' name] [en.wikipedia.org]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:19pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm

mees-tair boosh ees a bair-ee beeg ween-air

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:21pm
you know...the guy who attacked us...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:15pm

you know...the oilless guy who attacked us...

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:23pm
bill moyers talking to john bogle...good stuff...

he's ripping modern american "capitalism"...not exactly a socialist here...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:23pm
owners to managers capitalism - "pathological mutation"

ceo's are slackers...parasites...to detriment of corporations and stock holders...

fund managers sucking up inordinate amount of resources...

top heavy...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:26pm
moyers [pbs.org]

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:27pm
from the u.s. army itself:

http://sill-www.army.mil/FAMAG/2005/MAR_APR_2005/PAGE24-30.pdf

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out. .. We used improved WP for screening missions when HC smoke would have been more effective and saved our WP for lethal missions."

WP = white phosphorus, also known as Willy Pete

that's the highest of higher grounds, chemical weapons in an urban area.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_phosphorus_use_in_Iraq

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 10:31pm
$6 billion defence contracts under criminal investigation...$88 billion fraud...

bushco...fraud and graft inc.

war in iraq - big bloody enrich the already rich croneys...

our military bleeds for the enrichment of evil mamonists..

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:32pm
bush - king of greedy evil...

not what my dad fought for in the "good war"

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:33pm
bush and the neocons' arrogant stupidity is the direct cause of the unnecesary death and suffering of millions...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:35pm
you know...the guy who attacked us...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:15pm

You mean that Bin Forgetten guy? I know it's an old one, but it had to be said. It's amazing how Bushco likes to use 9/11 to scare the crap out of people and use that as their backdrop for their "war on terror" but somehow Bin Laden doesn't seem to matter any more.

The fact that he is still the number one guy in AQ has no bearing on the situation. At least it doesn't from the Bushco camp. Bush is probably sending checks to Bin Laden daily thanking him for a job well done while he talks his war talk to his close minded foolish followers. They think this is holy war and that they are going to heaven by following Bush.

There is something in the Bible about following false profits. Maybe some of these Christian types like Rio should read up on that.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 10:35pm
palpable evil...in our midst...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:36pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 10:35pm |

evil vs. evil

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:39pm
the great robbery and hoodwinking of our country...when the colossus rolls over the liliputions get squished...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:42pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/28/2007 @ 8:04pm

"WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said Friday that every child born in the United States should get a $5,000 "baby bond" from the government to help pay for future costs of college or buying a home.'

Must be one of Franks ideas...I'll bet groups all accross the US are planning a "fucking" season as we speak..after all, some many are oppressed.

NOW, if she ties it to ,

1. Only familys with 2 parents intact, meaning, working on the marraiage and living at home WITH a job.

2. ONLY leagal Americans citzens can apply.

3. You must be a tax payer, er, will that be a tax refund? or cut?

In that case...never mind.

Hillary is heartless...why is she so cheap? What child can live on only $5,000? What a corporate whore she is. John Edwards needs to DOUBLE that, to $10,000. Then Obama can trump them all with $20,000. Then the bidding can REALLY begin.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 10:43pm
Wonder why HRC only offered $5k per child. Would $10k be...irresponsible? Unaffordable? LOL

Keep talking, Hillary.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 10:45pm
A more clarified statement from another thread...skipping health care or NOT exploding the "invisible deficit" or whatever you want, just consider this---

for the amount of money the Congress just upped the debt, $850 Billion....in adjusted dollars (1970 to 2007)(approx)...

we could land FIVE HUNDRED times on the Moon with an Apollo spacecraft with a 1000 astronauts.

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 10:46pm
1.5 million iraqi refugees in syria...they prostitute their daughters to survive...

bush - driving under age iraqi girls to prostitution...

syria...terrible, awful, horrible bad guys, eh? taking in 1.5 million iraqis...19.3 million + 1.5 million

almost ten percent...that would be like...30 million refugees to the usa...how would we like that?

it need not have happened.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:47pm
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 10:46pm |

neocon response - "defeatist!"

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:49pm
"WASHINGTON (AP) - Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Rodham Clinton said Friday that every child born in the United States should get a $5,000 "baby bond" from the government to help pay for future costs of college or buying a home.'

the state of Alaska pays every man woman and child a multi thousand dollar payment each and every year. in that context what Hillary is suggesting seems reasonable.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 10:52pm
There is something in the Bible about following false profits.

perhaps they meant prophets.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/28/2007 @ 10:52pm
perhaps they meant prophets.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 10:52pm

(takes puff on pipe, smiling wryly at the "bon mot" he just made. Jots it down to send to The New Yorker.)

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 10:55pm
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 10:46pm

we could land FIVE HUNDRED times on the Moon with an Apollo spacecraft with a 1000 astronauts.

And considering that two-thirds of the budget is for social programs like medicare and social security...what?

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 10:55pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 10:43pm

your evil heroes are bankrupting our country and wreaking misery on millions.

sounds like treason....

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 10:56pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:49pm

Atleast 500 Moon Landing might ACCOMPLISH something...and could be cut-off or de-funded without everybody panicking that doing what 70% of America wants somehow means defeat at the ballot box.

And we might find a big black monolith and we could make Martin Landau commander of the Moon base!....heheh

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 10:57pm
When I was in my twenties, I spent most of my money on women and booze. I wasted the rest.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 10:57pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 10:55pm

Hmm...let's see. We spend billions and AT WORST ....NOT get sick old folks, who are able to maintain a decent living.....OR

we spend OVER HALF A TRILLION DOLLARS (off the books of course) so that we can prop up a Shiite government in the middle of a civil war, get 100s of thousands killed, and moving to 3800 Americans killed....and not even TOUCH the guy who masterminded 9/11.

yeah, let's talk more about Medicare and SS, PONTI!

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 11:00pm
Hey guys...any word on the impending impeachment? What's David Corn have to say?

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:00pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:00pm

Panic sets in at the discussion of how THE RIGHT is wasting hundreds of billions...."Let's change subject....uh, PLEASE?!??!?"

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 11:02pm
Wonder why HRC only offered $5k per child. Would $10k be...irresponsible? Unaffordable? LOL

Keep talking, Hillary.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 10:45pm

Oh, I see you are back Ponti. Must have just finished target practice at all of the pictures of the unwhite people who don't go to church with your shot gun.

So, it's alright for the fed to grant corporations millions of dollars of tax relief, but a crime to give money back to the children of citizens of this country who actually pay their taxes?

You guys never cease to amaze. Corporations deserve handouts from the governmnet, severance from legally binding pension plans via the conservative supreme court, but you sob's don't want a regular citizen to get a damned thing do you.

Some American you are my friend. Why don't you just stab people in the back as you walk down the streets since they are meaningless wastes in your mind. Only the wealthy deserve to live a decent life, the rest of us should just be happy to serve the wealthy.

People like you truly do wish to destroy the American dream.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:03pm
Hey MASK...it says here that 98 Senators, and 404 reps voted for further funding of 'Bush's War'. What's 1 out of 99, percentage wise? 10 out of 434? Are you going to start referring to people who want defunding of the war as '1 percenters'?

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:04pm
defense spending = about 23% of total budget...

A comparison of the budgets for the world's greatest military spenders. Note that this comparison is done in nominal value US dollars and thus is not adjusted for purchasing power parity. The current (2005) United States military budget is larger than the military budgets of the next fourteen biggest spenders combined, and over eight times larger than the official military budget of China. The United States and its close allies are responsible for approximately two-thirds of all military spending on Earth (of which, in turn, the US is responsible for the majority). Military spending accounts for more than half of the United States' federal discretionary spending, which is all of the U.S. government's money that is not used for pre-existing obligations.[5]

According to the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute, in 2003 the United States spent approximately 47% of the world's total military spending of US$910.6 billion.

As percentage of its GDP, the United states spends 3.7% on military. This is higher than France's 2.6%, and lower than Saudi Arabia's 10%.[6] This is historically low for the United States since it peaked in 1944 at 37.8% of GDP. Even during the peak of the Vietnam War the percentage reached a high of 9.4% in 1968.[7]

Because the U.S. GDP has risen over time, the military budget can rise in absolute terms while shrinking as a percentage of the GDP. For example, according to the Center for Defense Information, the US outlays for defense as a percentage of federal discretionary spending, has from Fiscal Year 2003 consumed more than half (50.5%) of all such funding and has risen steadily.[8] Discretionary spending accounts for approximately 1/3 of all federal outlays.[9] Therefore, comparing nominal dollar values of military spending over the course of decades fails to account for the impact of inflationary forces, for which military spending as a percentage of GDP does account.

The recent invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are largely funded through supplementary spending bills outside the Federal Budget, so they are not included in the military budget figures listed above.[10] In addition, the United States has black budget military spending which is not listed as Federal spending and is not included in published military spending figures. Other military-related items, like maintenance of the nuclear arsenal and the money spent by the Veterans Affairs Department, are not included in the official budget. Thus, the total amount spent by the United States on military spending is higher.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:07pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:56pm

your evil heroes are bankrupting our country and wreaking misery on millions.

sounds like treason....

What...now you want to shoot the old, sick, and poor people who account for two-thirds of our budget? Geez, you folks really are ruthless.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:08pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:04pm | ignore this person

ah...reveling in the triumph of wickedness...lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:11pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 11:03pm

People like you truly do wish to destroy the American dream.

Well, now Wolfie, it depends on WHICH American dream you're talking about. If you mean hate-America-first, defeat-and-retreat, finger-in-your-ass socialist dreams...yeah, you're probably right.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:17pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 11:11pm

ah...reveling in the triumph of wickedness...lol...

Ever heard the proverb...if everyone's telling you you're drunk...you should probably sit down?

LOL

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:19pm
Bin Forgetten

Bin Forgotten

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:22pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 11:07pm

You are clouding the issue with facts. People the likes of Rio and Liverlips (I believe someone told me the Pontificator was Liverlips) can't deal with.

Though we, U.S. citizens, live in the continental U.S., this country has been under the thumb of international corporations since day one. Sure, the Brits let us win our colonial freedom, but that didn't stop their businesses from running here. Even during the civil war their businesses did quite well.

Look at Hong Kong and India. Same thing, just different countries. There's a few big players in the world market and nations are played against each other for these folks' gain.

What's going on in Iraq at present is just another colonial gain for international corporations wishing to cash in on the black tea. Watch the gold market and see how it's doing. Last I checked is doing quite well.

Everyone keeps talking about how wealthy Bill Gates is. Gates is a billionaire which does make him rich, but he is nothing compared to the likes of the Rothschild family money.

We're talking about centuries of family owned properties, invested, and manipulating markets with those investments. These people are not stupid and control the likes of W like a puppet to meet their needs.

Rio, Liverlips, and Ponti can all take that into their pipe and smoke it or stuff it. They don't know they are being played out like a friggin banjo at a redneck meeting in Alabama, but they are.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:24pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:04pm

No, since that's not exactly what they did....otherwise you would have no "cut & runners" (ex Feingold) to discuss whenever a "fund to withdraw" bill comes up....would you? Or didn't you guys MEAN it?

How about some more numbers? PONTI, doesn't care for Hillary's $5000 BOND (not cash, a bond, like war bonds...s'how we used to pay for wars, when we used to pay for them!).

Well, there are 82,000,000 approx children (19 or younger) in the USA. We could GIVE them ALL in cash (no bond) $8500 for the same amount of money we've spent in Iraq....and if they blew it at the mall or even on college, gain 1000X more in our economy.

Or another one...more stark to a PONTI type....As many know, I have deep suspicion and some fear (perhaps justifible) of the inevitable Federally-run universal health care system that will hit us someday.

BUT...if "President Hillary" enacted such a system Day One in office in 2009, and ran it for the 4 years of her first term, and spent the $700+ Billion, we have or will spend in Iraq...

and didn't KILL anybody with it...

It would have a cost-benefit analysis a million times better than what we've gotten from Iraq.

Or even better for the few remaining conservatives (myself as libertarian too)....how much of a TAX CUT could we see with that $700 Billion if (like HAPPY) you didn't CARE about that invisible deficit we have now.

Posted by Mask at 09/28/2007 @ 11:28pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 11:03pm

Hey WOLFIE...I see you've got the whole of history figured out. It's all a corporate scam, and of course, I guess THE JEWS (e.g., the Rothschilds) are in on it. Seems a might...paranoid, no?

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:29pm
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 11:28pm

You didn't answer my question, MASK. Hillary says $5,000. Why not $10,000? $20,000? $100,000? Is she just cheap?

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:31pm
Also MASK, with you as a libertarian, I find it odd that you will support Hillary when a) she will require health insurance BEFORE you can get a job b) she does not rule out the illegalization of cigarette smoking (and, by implication, whatever other of your personal habits she may one day deem to be socially undesirable) c) government control of EVERYONE's health care. Because, for the life of me, she isn't anyone any libertarian I know could support.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:36pm
and again...but for the diversion of resources to iraq...who knows? a couple more infantry divisions and a marine division on the ground in tora bora to seal the cordon instead of outsourcing to sketchy afghan warlords and i'm pretty damned sure we would have strung up bin laden long ago...

you know...the guy who attacked us...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:15pm

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:36pm
medianincome

here...from a "liberal rag"

capitalism has been perverted and corrupted...

neocons - evil corporate socialists pretending to be capitalists... [csmonitor.com]

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:41pm
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 11:28pm

Or even better for the few remaining conservatives (myself as libertarian too)....how much of a TAX CUT could we see with that $700 Billion if (like HAPPY) you didn't CARE about that invisible deficit we have now.

And the answer is, of course, that without national security, fiscal reponsiblity is a mirage. It's the traditional knee-jerk liberal conventional wisdom (an oxymoron if there ever was one) that virtually ALL money spent on national defense is wasted, and better spent on more social programs. Completely wrong. Liberal positions such as this are founded on overly-simplistic economic assumptions. If your assumptions were true, then taken to their logical extreme, we would all be better off with a 100 percent tax rate and a government managed economy.

Posted by pontificus at 09/28/2007 @ 11:42pm
c'mon ponti

doncha think a few bucks for some hospitals is better than quintillions spent on the ATTACK INDUSTRY?

and what about all that sailboat fuel you've paid for in iraq?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:49pm
And the answer is, of course, that without national security, fiscal reponsiblity is a mirage.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:42pm |

yeah...saddam, ringed, contained, weak, and with military access to what...50% of his own country...was such a threat...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm
Hey WOLFIE...I see you've got the whole of history figured out. It's all a corporate scam, and of course, I guess THE JEWS (e.g., the Rothschilds) are in on it. Seems a might...paranoid, no?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:29pm

Ponti, Do you think W is the first asshole who invented corruption? Once again, read your bible. It's been around as long as money and labor for money was invented. In some cases, it's not money for labor, it's slave labor for cash like the Egyptians of old and the Brits of old were up to their necks in.

I have learned to question that what I have been told was truth because when I scratched the surface of some of those so called truths, I found out they were lies.

I believe a fellow name Galileo did the same thing a long time ago and the Church threatened him and his family if he didn't denounce his findings.

I certainly don't put myself on the level of Galileo, but only point out that to question the powers that be is almost considered blasphemy. Why would the church do a thing like that? Maybe because it might undermine their control and power?

Or, are you going to tell me that didn't happen either? Look at how quick you jumped to these peoples' (the Rothschild Family) defense and I'll bet you haven't read anything about them....they are major stock holders in Shell Oil and Debeers and a few international banks but they are just good minded souls right? Go ahead and check them out if you like. I think they also own a few smaller Eastern Seaboard Oil companies in the U.S. as well, but the list goes on and on.

These people are for real, I didn't make them up nor their history. I would guess that there are probably other empires like theirs that have less public information, but they exist and are for real.

I don't think I have the whole thing figured out, but when I see certain families wealth grow completely disproportionately with the majority of the people living on the planet, yes, I get a little suspicious.

Do you think their wealth came from hard honest labor?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 11:40pm

actually, i'd say that about 99.73% of humanity is subject to the ol' strum strum.

ever listen to béla fleck?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:52pm
Do you think their wealth came from hard honest labor?

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm

yep, they went and dug up all those jewels in their crowns.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:56pm
Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm

well, maybe he'll have to go after some TRULY guilty individuals.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:57pm
was such a threat...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm

he was to exxon................

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/28/2007 @ 11:58pm
Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/28/2007 @ 11:59pm
Hey WOLFIE...I see you've got the whole of history figured out. It's all a corporate scam, and of course, I guess THE JEWS (e.g., the Rothschilds) are in on it. Seems a might...paranoid, no?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/28/2007 @ 11:29pm

Hey asshole, I'm not the one crapping my pants everytime W puts a picture of Bin Laden in the news or when they show pictures of the twin towers falling on TV.

That doesn't scare me into voting my rights away and letting a flipping war monger president run my country into the ground.

That is reserved for paranoid chickenshits like yourself,no?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 12:00am
liartube [youtube.com]

hey - right from the mouths of the liars themselves

PRE- war statements from bush admin...

"hussein no threat"

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:01am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm

Do you think their wealth came from hard honest labor?

This is known as the working man's fallacy...demagogic populists have played on it from time immemorial.

Didn't you read Orwell's Animal Farm? The guys in charge always look like pigs. No different in a socialist system, they just speak a different language.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:03am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:01am

so as late as july 2001...according to dear "condi"...hussein was not a threat...

after 9/11...DANGEROUS...WMD...OOOOOHHHH...

so what was it? lies or incompetance? before or after?

evil...lying...treasonous...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:06am
oink. oink. oink.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 12:07am
murderers of going on 5000 servicemen in iraq...murderers of literally UNCOUNTED thousands of iraqis...men...women...children...

murderous lying treasonous evil...

impeachment? i say - execution more appropriate...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:09am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/29/2007 @ 12:00am

Hey asshole, I'm not the one crapping my pants everytime W puts a picture of Bin Laden in the news or when they show pictures of the twin towers falling on TV.

That doesn't scare me into voting my rights away and letting a flipping war monger president run my country into the ground.

That is reserved for paranoid chickenshits like yourself,no?

Well, I see by the effusion of profanity that I have hit the nerve that a firm probing of one of you folks inevitably produces.

Paranoia is an irrational fear of an imaginary threat. I believe that Bin Laden has proven that he is anything but imaginary. If a threat is real, then it is those who DENY the threat that are delusional, e.g., yourself. Correct?

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:09am
so what was it? lies or incompetance? before or after?

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:06am

lies AND incompetence*!

before AND after!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 12:10am
*sorry dude. truly respect your posts. it was funnily ironic you spelt incompetence incorrrectly.

didn't mean to demean your post.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 12:12am
check out the video clip...

they KNEW hussein was NO THREAT...

they LIED...how many died?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:13am
It really is hilarious when people call other people 'incompetant'. Also, 'stoopid' is funny.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:13am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:13am

they LIED...how many died?

Bush lied...people died!

If the glove don't fit, you MUSS ACQUIT!!!

targeted for the same audience, I believe.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:16am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:13am

I heard one of the lefties call somebody else a 'moran' here once, too. You can't buy this kind of entertainment. Unless he was making an obscure reference to Rep. Jim Moran D-VA, who is, indeed, in a special class of stupidity here in the Washington DC area.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:19am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:16am |

did you see the clip? i remember it from when it happened. the administration knowingly lied about iraq...

they are responsible for the death and suffering of millions. they are vile.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:20am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:20am

they are responsible for the death and suffering of millions. they are vile.

Are you sure you don't want to go for 'billions', or at least 'tens of millions'? Or are you afraid that would be irresponsible?

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:23am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:19am

i am to spelling what bush is to mushmouthing...sc public education + mild dyslexia + mastery of nearly phonetic language (spanish) + the miracle of the word processor + the oxymoronic concept of "english language spelling rules" = spelling retard...me.

living in glass house...not flinging rocks here...

pero en el castellano la ortografia es bien facil...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:25am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:23am | ignore this person

no. "death and suffering", implying "death and/or suffering" of millions is not hyperbolic at all. considering the millions of iraqi refugees, the millios within iraq who have suffered deprivations that mmake katrina look mild...

death and suffering of millions is very accurate...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:28am
or legally speaking...

but for the actions of the bush administration (knowingly lying us into an unnecesary war) millions would not have died and/or suffered as a result of the invasion and military action they caused.

like OJ, they will not go to jail. perhaps a civil suit? lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:31am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:25am

My daughter's second grade teacher couldn't spell either. I don't blame her, or the victims of the teaching of her and her ilk. I blame an inherently flawed system that produces and protects such incompetence, and those who blindly defend it and wish to perpetuate and expand it to other areas, like health care. You should too.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:32am
no hyperbole at all...

unnecesary death and/or suffering of millions...criminal negligence.

war crimes.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:33am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:28am

death and suffering of millions is very accurate...

I'm sure you think it is, I just thought that if you were going to make up numbers, why not go whole-hog? Ain't nobody gonna call you on it here, as long as there are no adults around.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:34am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:33am

war crimes.

War crimes! Sounds great! Like Hitler! Hmmmm....BusHitler? Sounds snappy!

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 12:35am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:32am

native english speakers are like 2 to 10 times more likely to develop dyslexia than speakers of most other world languages...lack of non insane rules...

makes the language incredibly rich but hurts brain...

actually catholic educated from 9th to 12th grades...just screwed up early...lol

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:36am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:34am | ignore this person

the numbers are not made up. up to 2 million in syria alone.

being forced to flee your country is definately suffering.

millions of folks living in daily terror in iraq - suffering...

estimates of civilian deaths resulting from our invasion ranging from tens to hundreds of thousands...

millions of deaths and suffering people as a result of bushco's lies

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:42am
not to mention how we will suffer as a result of the big bill we will have to pay...as croneys of bushco profit.

so even worse...millions suffering and a few profiting directly from the suffering they caused...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:43am
evil

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:44am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:44am

hey there.

hope i didn't give these folks ammo against you.

english spelling is cruel and stupid. it's a waste of time and money.

it's the only language with spelling bees.

wee need a funetik revulooshin.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 12:50am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 12:50am

dude...i can spell the truth like a retard and its still the truth...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 12:54am
Satan does roam the earth like a raging lion seeking whom he may devour and intrestingly enough his major weapons are all converse to every one of the ten commandments and work quite well against the poor unsuspecting vacillating human inhabitants of the earth!

Posted by RIO BRAVO 09/29/2007 @ 12:16am

[bracket comments refer to bushco.]

ONE: 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'

[$$ has usurped this one]

TWO: 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'

[hmmmm, still thinking about this one]

THREE: 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'

[when bush says god bless america while sending troops off to kill, seems like he's breaking this one]

FOUR: 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'

[the war machine works just as hard on sunday]

FIVE: 'Honor your father and your mother.'

[i wonder if mom and dad are proud of george jr.]

SIX: 'You shall not murder.'

[broken 600,000 times]

SEVEN: 'You shall not commit adultery.'

[looks like they might have escaped this one--well, there is vitter, craig, et. al.]

EIGHT: 'You shall not steal.'

[sailboat fuel's just a start]

NINE: 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'

[they've borne false witness against THE WORLD]

TEN: 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

[well, the neo-cons covet THE WORLD]

thanks for the tip, RIO

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:02am
the video shows they changed their story after 9/11...

the abrupt change looks sususpiciously like a lie (which it was). i'll not again go into the lie about the al qaeda connection, but its another knowingly told lie.

even the administration's own estimates place the death toll in the tens of thousands, but this has been widely and wisely questioned...at LEAST a hundred thousand is accurate. multiple millions of iraqi refugees since the invasion, millions inside living in daily terror which makes saddam's terror look almost mild...thousands of us servicemen and women dead, many more injured, relatives bereaved, what, a trillion dollars? lets not even consider the opportunity cost here...

so i think that bushco constitutes a pack of war criminals who should be tried for treason, war crimes, and executed...

evil...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 01:02am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 12:54am

like i said, all apologies if i've caused you troubles.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:04am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:32am

the educational system has flaws, but spelling is THE flaw in english.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:07am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 01:04am

you caused no trouble at all, frosty! lol...

retardedly spelled truth is truth...

where are they, eh? (probably bed - lol)

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 01:08am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 01:08am

¿hablas español?

you know, i can read most any language with latin script. don't understand many of them. but i can pronounce them.

i feel sorry for kids--LEARN THE SPELLING ROOLS!!!!!

make kids feel dumb because they can't memorize (i won't say "learn") a systemless system of spelling.

i remember seeing 5 or 6 spellings of "hypocrisy" on one thread alone!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:15am
actually my orthography was not that bad...hmmm...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 01:17am
BusHitler?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:35am

hey, thanks PONTI

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:18am
mas o menillos. vivi en costa rica y estaba casado con una tica. la verdad es que necesito practico pero es como manejar una bicicleta, sabes?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 01:19am
i think i made a good point. well...

me esta acercando la tierra de nunca jamas rapidamente. buenas noches don frosty.

hasta manana...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 01:22am
luego me cuentas de costa rica, por fa.

que descanses, don iblblblbblllblelblblelble

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:29am
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,22490525-2703,00.html

now the senate has voted to divide a country that isn't even theirs!!!!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:48am
http://www.gulf-daily-news.com/Story.asp?Article=195234&Sn=WORL&IssueID= 30192

well, at least the iraqis aren't falling for this nonsense.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:49am
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2007/09 /28/chaos_and_unity_in_a_fragmented_iraq/

Roger Owen is a professor Middle East history at Harvard University

suggested reading on why iraq will remain unmanageable for quite a while.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 01:54am
HOLY NO DEAL BATMAN! HEY IBLBLELBLELBLE, HERE'S SOME SPANISH FOR YOUR BREAKFASTING PLEASURE.

transcript of bush-aznar meeting in feb. 2003. turns out saddam wanted to flee iraq [tinyurl.com]

professor cole has a good translation [juancole.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 02:21am
Curious, LRJ....why didn't it "turn around" ...12 months AGO...or 24...or 36...or 48?

Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 9:26pm

Just got back from the Aussie Rules Football Grand Final. I was really querying Ibbie's suggestion that the Iraqis were owed something in terms of the military hanging around. The only conclusion I was able to draw was that Ibbie was claiming a continuing American (military) presence is likely to improve the lot of Iraqis. Assuming Ibbie was having a rational day I really wanted him to clarify if that is what he meant. Otherwise it would serve the Iraqis better by immediate withdrawal.

The reason it didn't turn around 12 to 48 months ago is that Rumsfeld and those likeminded generals had no intention of getting the US to do what they thought the Iraqis should be doing for themselves. Hence the light footprint strategy. Which of course did not in the end reduce the number of US soldiers and Iraqis being killed and injured or move the political process forward.

There is some evidence that Rumsfeld and those generals had no intention of getting involved in nation building and would like to have high tailed it out of there soon after Saddam was removed from office. It has been said that our Foreign Minister, Alexander Downer, advised the US prior to March 2003 that they should get out of Iraq as quick as possible after Saddam is removed.

Apparently no one told young George about this and it took him till late last year to work out Rumsfeld and his cohort were not on his victory wavelength.

It is only since Rumsfeld and his generals were sacked and Gates and Petraeus got their hands onto the military and political levers of the Iraq venture that things began to turn around.

I know Ibbie goes out of his way to appear a little dense but my guess is that he is not and knows that the Dem Candidates also are not completely dumb. There seems to be pretty strong indications that they also know that the ball game has changed and I was assuming Ibbie at least had recognised that.

The game has changed from "no nation" building to full steam ahead with something that looks very much like nation building. The new game integrates the US into military action and political initiatives that are incorporated in a state of the art insurgency strategy.

So, given the war is funded, there is a fair chance that things will only continue along the promising path, that started with the surge but have only become more obvious in the last few months, during the next 12 months. History is a very good judge of all our prognoses. So let's be patient.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/29/2007 @ 05:30am
by the way - bush is not exactly seen as a big winner anymore...weener maybe...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/28/2007 @ 10:06pm

Ibbie,

Thinking more along the lines of Iraq and its people being the big winners. If there are solid indications of that in the next year it is likely that there will be a sense of relief that Iraq will not be seen as another American military failure. That may not make Bush a big winner but it is likely to make that 70% of Americans, who supported the war, when it appeared to be a winner, to feel better about themselves in relation to Iraq and defuse it as a negative issue for the Republican candidate.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/29/2007 @ 06:04am
It is only since Rumsfeld and his generals were sacked and Gates and Petraeus got their hands onto the military and political levers of the Iraq venture that things began to turn around. ----Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 05:30am

Oh, yeah....who says?

Would that be the SAME GUYS....who hired Rumsfeld?

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 08:04am
So let's be patient.

Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 05:30am

easy for you to say

Iraq War Results & Statistics as of Sept 23, 2007

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,135,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 1.3 million to 1.75 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%

3,800 US Soldiers Killed, 27,936 Seriously Wounded

US SPENDING IN IRAQ

Spent & Approved War-Spending - About $600 billion of US taxpayers' funds. President Bush is expected to request another $200 billion for 2008, which would bring the cumulative total to close to $800 billion.

U.S. Monthly Spending in Iraq - $12 billion, in 2007

U.S. Daily Spending in Iraq - over $200 million, in 2007

Cost of deploying one U.S. soldier for one year in Iraq - $390,000 (Congressional Research Service)

Lost & Unaccounted for in Iraq - $9 billion of US taxpayers' money and $549.7 milion in spare parts shipped in 2004 to US contractors. Also, per ABC News, 190,000 guns, including 110,000 AK-47 rifles.

Mismanaged & Wasted in Iraq - $10 billion, per Feb 2007 Congressional hearings

Halliburton Overcharges Classified by the Pentagon as Unreasonable and Unsupported - $1.4 billion

Amount paid to KBR, a former Halliburton division, to supply U.S. military in Iraq with food, fuel, housing and other items - $20 billion

Portion of the $20 billion paid to KBR that Pentagon auditors deem "questionable or supportable" - $3.2 billion

Number of major U.S. bases in Iraq - 75 (The Nation/New York Times)

TROOPS IN IRAQ

Iraqi Troops Trained and Able to Function Independent of U.S. Forces - 6,000 as of May 2007 (per NBC's "Meet the Press" on May 20, 2007)

Troops in Iraq - Total 179,779, including 168,000 from the US, 5,00 from the UK, 1,200 from South Korea and 5,579 from all other nations

US Troop Casualities - 3,800 US troops; 98% male. 90% non-officers; 80% active duty, 12% National Guard; 74% Caucasian, 10% African-American, 11% Latino. 18% killed by non-hostile causes. 51% of US casualties were under 25 years old. 70% were from the US Army

Non-US Troop Casualties - Total 300, with 169 from the UK

US Troops Wounded - 27,936, 20% of which are serious brain or spinal injuries (total excludes psychological injuries)

US Troops with Serious Mental Health Problems 30% of US troops develop serious mental health problems within 3 to 4 months of returning home

US Military Helicopters Downed in Iraq - 68 total, at least 36 by enemy fire

IRAQI TROOPS, CIVILIANS & OTHERS IN IRAQ

Private Contractors in Iraq, Working in Support of US Army Troops - More than 180,000 in August 2007, per The Nation/LA Times.

Journalists killed - 112, 74 by murder and 38 by acts of war

Journalists killed by US Forces - 14

Iraqi Police and Soldiers Killed - 7,460

Iraqi Civilians Killed, Estimated - A UN issued report dated Sept 20, 2006 stating that Iraqi civilian casualities have been significantly under-reported. Casualties are reported at 50,000 to over 100,000, but may be much higher. Some informed estimates place Iraqi civilian casualities at over 600,000.

Iraqi Insurgents Killed, Roughly Estimated - 55,000

Non-Iraqi Contractors and Civilian Workers Killed - 539

Non-Iraqi Kidnapped - 305, including 54 killed, 147 released, 4 escaped, 6 rescued and 94 status unknown.

Daily Insurgent Attacks, Feb 2004 - 14

Daily Insurgent Attacks, July 2005 - 70

Daily Insurgent Attacks, May 2007 - 163

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Nov 2003 - 15,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, Oct 2006 - 20,000 - 30,000

Estimated Insurgency Strength, June 2007 - 70,000

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 09:02am
'scuse the mega-post. a link wouldn't have sufficed.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 09:03am
Thinking more along the lines of Iraq and its people being the big winners.

Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 06:04am

QUALITY OF LIFE INDICATORS

Iraqis Displaced Inside Iraq, by Iraq War, as of May 2007 - 2,135,000

Iraqi Refugees in Syria & Jordan - 1.3 million to 1.75 million

Iraqi Unemployment Rate - 27 to 60%, where curfew not in effect

Consumer Price Inflation in 2006 - 50%

Iraqi Children Suffering from Chronic Malnutrition - 28% in June 2007 (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Percent of professionals who have left Iraq since 2003 - 40%

Iraqi Physicians Before 2003 Invasion - 34,000

Iraqi Physicians Who Have Left Iraq Since 2005 Invasion - 12,000

Iraqi Physicians Murdered Since 2003 Invasion - 2,000

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 1 to 2 hours, per Ryan Crocker, U.S. Ambassador to Iraq (Per Los Angeles Times, July 27, 2007)

Average Daily Hours Iraqi Homes Have Electricity - 10.9 in May 2007

Average Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 5.6 in May 2007

Pre-War Daily Hours Baghdad Homes Have Electricity - 16 to 24

Number of Iraqi Homes Connected to Sewer Systems - 37%

Iraqis without access to adequate water supplies - 70% (Per CNN.com, July 30, 2007)

Water Treatment Plants Rehabilitated - 22%

RESULTS OF POLL Taken in Iraq in August 2005 by the British Ministry of Defense (Source: Brookings Institute)

Iraqis "strongly opposed to presence of coalition troops - 82%

Iraqis who believe Coalition forces are responsible for any improvement in security - less than 1%

Iraqis who feel less ecure because of the occupation - 67%

Iraqis who do not have confidence in multi-national forces - 72%

time for the victory lap!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 09:05am
now mr. lrjones, get yourself some statistically valid, iraqi shoes and put them on and walk around in them for a few days. see how PATIENT and VICTORIOUS you feel then.

oh, by the way, no leaving the house in your new-found footwear, curfew's in effect. and if it weren't you'd still be too frightened to leave home.

oh, and don't forget to walk around your house in the dark with no a.c. at 45C!

easy to be patient watching a football game on the other side of the world.

were you victorious?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 09:11am
Thanks, Mr. Nichols and FZ, for your fact-filled postings this Saturday morn.

Posted by lewwelge at 09/29/2007 @ 09:13am
One thing. My spouse and I are finishing Khaled Hosseini's runaway bestselling "A Thousand Splendid Suns," and, as usual, life is imitating art in Iraq as our occupation continues to encourage repression and discourage tolerance and social progress.

Posted by lewwelge at 09/29/2007 @ 09:17am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 09:11am

FROSTY, you excel at making the perfect the enemy of the good. Considering the way we found Iraq, you can hardly fault it for being less than perfect now. Just like you find capitalism horrible, because it doesn't guarantee you and everyone else in the world a cushy standard of living, i.e., free health care, guaranteed income, etc. I think I'm finally starting to see where you're coming from.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 09:21am
Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 06:04am | ignore this person

well, i was a 30%...and the 70% of americans indeed share to soe extent the blood guilt if for no other reason than avoidable ignorance enabled by rage...and should feel ashamed. shame is a good thing.

but the admin knowingly lied about the intelligence. the entire premise was based on lies, and therefore i have to call into question not only the morality of my leaders at the time, but their competance and understanding.

i'd love to win, but some games are unwinnable by anybody.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 09:31am
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 09:21am

wrong! (i learned that from my buddy, THE HAPPY TEXAN)

if "you" found iraq the way it was, it is in many ways because you had made it that way. the CIA was instrumental in helping mr. saddam gain power.

and then in the 80's (wish i had more time to prove how ¡wrong!) rummy, iran-iraq

i pay for my health care. we all do here. we pay taxes. and the doctors get paid. it's the same as insurance, BUT IT'S NOT FOR PROFIT. and canada is running a $7,000,000,000 surplus!

guaranteed income--hah! i'm off to work to pay for my wife's university.

capitalism sucks--but it's the best we've got right now. it just needs to be taught a little humanity.

there!

enjoy your morning.

off to be a capitalist....................

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 09:37am
Yeah, "the way we FOUND Iraq"(!), what a laugh, Puntif, the greedy fingers of empire have smudged and adorned every place on this planet. Unfortunately, too much of the former, too often as unintended consequence of the latter.

Posted by lewwelge at 09/29/2007 @ 09:50am
the first thing we owe the iraqi people is to get out of their country as soon as possible. unfortunately with the current admin this will not happen. the high level negotiations (which requires pacience, a modicum of respect, some subtlety) are beyond the abilities of the criminal ideologues who make up our regime, who know how to bluster and threaten but cannot summon up the humility and sophistication necesary for the task, and indeed have not the will.

so we must wait until feb 09 at the very earliest to negotiate. nobody will be able to undo the wicked mess they have made. iraq is a humiliated and traumatized remnant of a state that will require massive infusions of cash until they can get the oil pumping (and control the profits therefrom...which our current regime eyed greedily from the get go), and wil bleed for years to come whether we leave tomorrow or in 2013.

i think we can responsibly withdraw within 6 - 9 months of a change of leadership, though a year would be more realistic.

let me say it again. our leaders knowingly lied to us and the world and the result of these lies, exascerbated by their incompetance, has resulted in...

a) unnecesary death and/or suffering of millions - us, them, others...

b) a ruinous debt here at home, but...

c) massive profits for the cronies of our regime (illegally elected regie at that...)

our regime is criminal and criminally negligent. i laugh at the mushmouth and joke, but ultimately i find nothing whatsoever funny nor cute about this evil stupidity and arrogance.

this is not the country my father fought for in ww2. he fought against evil for decency. this regime has shown itself to be evil and i am utterly ashamed and disgusted...despite the fact that i have opposed them from the very beginning.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 09:54am
if "you" found iraq the way it was, it is in many ways because you had made it that way. the CIA was instrumental in helping mr. saddam gain power.

Interesting. So now you blame America for creating Saddam in the first place?

i pay for my health care. we all do here. we pay taxes. and the doctors get paid. it's the same as insurance, BUT IT'S NOT FOR PROFIT. and canada is running a $7,000,000,000 surplus!

The vast majority of people in the US pay for their own health care, too. And we don't have to go to the government to get it. And when you folks in Canada run into rationing, you come here. But if we get socialized medicine like yours, where are WE going to go? Also, most of the medical technology you Canadians rely on is created here, so your socialized system is, in that sense, sucking off of our system too. If we socialize health care in the US, there will be few if any advances because there will be no more incentives to create them. Plus, we will have rationing everywhere, and the quality of health care will decline dramatically for everyone.

guaranteed income--hah! i'm off to work to pay for my wife's university.

But you still espouse a guaranteed income, even for those who DON'T work.

capitalism sucks--but it's the best we've got right now. it just needs to be taught a little humanity.

You're going to make a successful system better by changing its aspects to be more in line with one that has failed? The fundamental philosophical fallacy of all liberals. Thanks for sharing.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 09:57am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 09:37am | ignore this person

this crony capitalism of the neocons is a corruption of capitalism. see mr. bogle on the moyers link i provided earlier. a very successful investment capitalist who is extremely critical of the economic direction our country has been led down for some time.

look at the cs monitor article and see how it is indeed possible to grow gnp while slowly impoverishing most of the people, destroying its middle class.

i'm running low on time here, but could also provide links to show how randian conservatives have created a privately owned propaganda machine to dupe frustrated commen folk into believing self destructive lies, to confuse and mislead millions into voting for their own destruction.

but gotta go for now.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 10:04am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 09:37am

I should add, FROSTY, that you Canadians also don't contribute squat to your own defense. Your protestation will be, of course, that defense isn't necessary, the world is a wonderful place where civilized people settle their differences over tea at the United Nations. All of this is a very pleasant and unshakable dream for you, I know. Of course, as wiser heads have stated, people like you sleep well because rough men are willing to do the things necessary to keep chowderheads like you safe in your delusions.

Posted by pontificus at 09/29/2007 @ 10:06am
Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 06:04am | ignore this person

dream on, Oz. there will be no success story in Iraq, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/29/2007 @ 10:23am
Do you think their wealth came from hard honest labor?

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/28/2007 @ 11:50pm | ignore this person

you don't consider being a banker honest labor?

Posted by johannesrolf at 09/29/2007 @ 10:25am
Posted by MASK 09/28/2007 @ 8:51pm

Scanned. Ibid.s, nope?

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:31am
"This might sound like chicanery by George W Bush and his cronies - or characteristic incompetence - but Bilmes and Professor Joseph Stiglitz, the Nobel laureate economist from Columbia University, have established not only that the number wounded in Iraq and Afghanistan is far higher than the Pentagon has been saying, but that looking after them alone could cost present and future US taxpayers a sum they estimate to be $536bn, but which could get considerably bigger still. Just one soldier out of the 1.4 million troops so far deployed who has returned with a debilitating brain injury, for example, may need round-the-clock care for five, six, or even seven decades. In present-day money, according to one study, care for that soldier alone will cost a minimum of $4.3m.

....

From official statistics supplied by the non-partisan Congressional Budget Office, we now know that the Iraq war is costing roughly $200m a day, or $6bn every month; the total bill so far is $400bn. But, in their studies, Bilmes and Stiglitz consider three scenarios that were not even conceivable to Bush, Rummy, Wolfowitz et al back in 2003. In the first, incurring the lowest future costs, troops will start to be withdrawn this year and be out by 2010. The second assumes that there will be a gradual withdrawal that will be complete by 2015. The third envisages the participation of two million servicemen and women, with the war going on past 2016.

...

Let me pause to explain those deceptive figures. Look at the latest official toll of US fatalities and wounded in the media, and you will see something like 3,160 dead and 23,785 wounded (that "includes 13,250 personnel who returned to duty within 72 hours", the Washington Post told us helpfully on 4 March). From this, you might assume that only 11,000 or so troops, in effect, have been wounded in Iraq. But Bilmes discovered that the Bush administration was keeping two separate sets of statistics of those wounded: one (like the above) issued by the Pentagon and therefore used by the media, and the other by the Department of Veterans Affairs - a government department autonomous from the Pentagon. At the beginning of this year, the Pentagon was putting out a figure of roughly 23,000 wounded, but the VA was quietly saying that more than 50,000 had, in fact, been wounded."

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:47am
"Casualty conspiracy To draw attention to her academic findings, Bilmes wrote a piece for the Los Angeles Times of 5 January 2007 in which she quoted the figure of "more than 50,000 wounded Iraq war soldiers". The reaction from the Pentagon was fury. An assistant secretary there named Dr William Winkenwerder phoned her personally to complain. Bilmes recalls: "He said, 'Where did you get those numbers from?'" She explained to Winkenwerder that the 50,000 figure came from the VA, and faxed him copies of official US government documents that proved her point. Winkenwerder backed down. Matters did not rest there. Despite its independence from the Pentagon, the VA is run by Robert James Nicholson, a former Republican Party chairman and Bush's loyal political appointee. Following Bilmes's exchange with Winkenwerder - on 10 January, to be precise - the number of wounded listed on the VA website dropped from 50,508 to 21,649. The Bush administration had, once again, turned reality on its head to concur with its claims. "The whole thing is scary," Bilmes says. "I have never been conspiracy-minded, but watching them change the numbers on the website - it's extraordinary." What Bilmes had discovered was that the tally of US fatalities in Iraq and Afghanistan included the outcome of "non-hostile actions", most commonly vehicle accidents. But the Pentagon's statistics of the wounded did not. Even troops incapacitated for life in Iraq or Afghanistan - but not in "hostile situations" - were not being counted, although they will require exactly the same kind of medical care back home as soldiers similarly wounded in battle. Bilmes and Stiglitz had set out, meantime, to explore the ratio of wounded to deaths in previous American wars. They found that in the First World War, on average 1.8 were wounded for every fatality; in the Second World War, 1.6; in Korea, 2.8; in Vietnam, 2.6; and, in the first Gulf war in 1991, 1.2. In this war, 21st-century medical care and better armour have inflated the numbers of the wounded-but-living, leading Bilmes to an astounding conclusion: for every soldier dying in Iraq or Afghanistan today, 16 are being wounded. The Pentagon insists the figure is nearer nine - but, either way, the economic implications for the future are phenomenal."

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:48am
"So far, more than 200,000 veterans from the current Iraq or Afghanistan wars have been treated at VA centres. Twenty per cent of those brought home are suffering from serious brain or spinal injuries, or the severing of more than one limb, and a further 20 per cent from amputations, blindness or deafness, severe burns, or other dire conditions. "Every person injured on active duty is going to be a long-term cost of the war," says Bilmes. If we compare the financial ramifications of the first Gulf war to the present one, the implications become even more stark. Despite its brevity, even the 1991 Gulf war exacted a heavy toll: 48.4 per cent of veterans sought medical care, and 44 per cent filed disability claims. Eighty-eight per cent of these claims were granted, meaning that 611,729 veterans from the first Gulf war are now receiving disability benefits; a large proportion are suffering from psychiatric illnesses, including post-traumatic stress disorder and depression. More than a third of those returning from the current wars, too, have already been diagnosed as suffering from similar conditions. But although the VA has 207 walk-in "vet centres" and other clinics and offices throughout the US, it is a bureaucracy under siege. It has a well-deserved reputation for providing excellent healthcare for America's 24 million veterans, but is quite unable to cope with a workload that the Bush administration did not foresee."

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:54am
"There is now a backlog of 400,000 claims from veterans and waiting lists of months, some of which "render . . . care virtually inaccessible", in the words of Frances Murphy, the VA's own deputy under-secretary for health. Claims are expected to hit 874,000 this year, 930,000 in 2008. Casualties returning from Iraq meanwhile outnumber other patients at Walter Reed 17 to one, and many have to be put up at nearby hotels and motels rather than in the hospital beds they desperately need. Suicide attempts are frequent; often the less wounded end up having to care for the more seriously wounded.

Since I researched this piece, the Washington Post has published a series of articles outlining the chaos at Walter Reed and elsewhere. Undercover reporters found soldiers suffering from schizophrenia, post-traumatic stress and other brain injuries, occupying rooms infested with mice and cockroaches. The ensuing furore resulted in the sacking of the general in charge. Even Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by these "unacceptable" conditions at Walter Reed, but his government has carefully avoided the issue of how much it will cost to put right these wrongs. The failure to look after returning, often traumatised troops leads to yet further hidden costs to the US economy: the consequences of unemployment, family violence, crime, alcoholism and drug abuse, for example."

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:58am
"Yet another gargantuan White House miscalculation was over the price of oil. Before his departure, Larry Lindsey told the Wall Street Journal in September 2002 that "the successful prosecution of the war would be good for the economy"; the WSJ echoed his thoughts in an editorial the same day, arguing that "the best way to keep oil prices in check is a short, successful war on Iraq". In 2002, the average cost of a barrel of oil was $23.71; today, it is hovering around $50. Dick Cheney's chums in firms such as his own Halliburton - or ExxonMobil, Shell, BP and Chevron - have profited enormously, but Bilmes estimates that even if only $5 of the oil-price increase can be attributed to the Iraq war, that alone adds $150bn to the cost of war.

There are also countless imponderables that add to the bill. The deployment of hundreds of thousands of reservists depletes the economy. At present, 44 per cent of US police forces, for example, have members deployed as reservists in Iraq, and their duties have to be performed by others in America; the same goes for firefighters, medical staff, prison wardens.

Then there are the future illnesses that may well unfold. For instance, nobody knew that the notorious Agent Orange defoliant, used by the US in Vietnam from 1961-71, would turn out to have had carcinogenic and other effects on US troops. Today, there is mounting evidence that exposure to depleted uranium - used for firing anti-tank rounds from US M1 tanks and A-10 attack aircraft - can cause cancer, diabetes and birth defects. Many veterans are returning to the US with their health apparently in ruins from adverse reactions to anti-anthrax injections and/or consumption of experimental pills to counter chemical warfare agents. The long-term costs of looking after the likes of them make the cost of the actual war dead pale by comparison: spouses of deceased soldiers receive a "death gratuity" of $100,000. Troops are also given the opportunity to take out subsidised life insurance policies for up to $500,000 for dependants. In the dispassionate way economists assess such things, Bilmes and Stiglitz estimate the additional cost to the economy of the death of a young soldier - typically 25 years old - to be $6.5m."

http://www.newstatesman.com/200703120024

And they never even calculated into the costs DU US and Iraqi treatment/reparations...

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 11:12am
Every day the hsuB/cHeney admin are in office, the more ruined our once great nation, becomes.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 11:32am
Oh, yeah....who says?

Would that be the SAME GUYS....who hired Rumsfeld?

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 08:04am

Mask,

There is little doubt that Petraeus knocked the stuffing out of the anti-war Dem and Republican politicians and got the wavering Dems and Republicans back on the straight and narrow. That should be obvious by the votes in the Congress and the change in the political rhetoric. Combined with that is the fact that the "thought to be weak" Maliki rather than falling over is proving to be a pretty good "on the job learner". The stirring amongst the various Shii and Sunni tribes is also not likely, at this stage, to be bad news for the new US strategy now in place in Iraq.

Didn't know that Petraeus or Gates hired Rumsfeld but there you go that's the tyranny of distance for you.

As you know I don't like being a smart arse (all the time) but you fellas really would make great religious fundamentalists if you could somehow accommodate God, because you certainly do cling to your discredited doctrines about Iraq when others are happy to be enlightened by the readily available data. I sometimes wonder if you fellas still have someone walk in front of your autos with a red flag. If you listen more carefully to what Hillary and some of the more popular of the other Dem candidates are saying (wink, wink, nudge, nudge) you may be able to move on from the old discredited certainties you so desperately cling to. Fundos, as you know need authority figures, so what's holding you back?

My diagnosis of your collective "disorder" has been aided, in no small measure, by your common regurgitation of the same old and very unoriginal anti- Bush mantras (or are they prayers?) that are being uttered with increasingly frenetic enthusiasm on this thread and others in changing times times like these.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/29/2007 @ 11:32am
"...that alone adds $150bn to the cost of war."

Think of the billions congress just quietly approved for Iraq simply going to: "Dick Cheney's chums in firms such as his own Halliburton - or ExxonMobil, Shell, BP and Chevron..."

"Who knew?"

http://tinyurl.com/2olxwz

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 11:39am
hsuB/cHeney admin and their obstructionist stall foot tapping repub new con supporters, servicers to dic'tator philosophy, are simply 'war whores'. Their bloated corporate war profiteers, are their souless 'pimps'.

There ought to be a law.

There is-- 'impeachment'.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 11:51am
LRJones-What discredited doctrines do anti war people hold?As far as I know it is in fact you folks who have views that have been discredited like the whole Saddam was an immediate threat,Saddam had WMDs,we would be greeted as liberators,we can fight wars on the cheap,the surge is working,etc.They have no government to speak of,they have no police,their military is a joke,they hate each other,their loyalty is to their local militias and not the lame central government,etc.Yes,if you put extra cops in a high crime area then crime rate will go down for awhile,but only for awhile.

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/29/2007 @ 12:10pm
How Bad is the Commodities Price Index, the true measure of inflation? Sept 27 2007 CPI = 216.5 http://www.economist.com/images/20070929/TAB3.gif

Sept 24 2005 CPI = 131.8 http://www.economist.com/images/20050924/TAB3.gif

It was 100 in the year 2000.

Ron Paul has been vocal about this horrible inflation since at least 1983: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hMeNnbSqkk

You are being paid in an inflating currency. Please think about how that impacts you.

Posted by mickrussom at 09/29/2007 @ 1:17pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 09/29/2007 @ 12:10pm

discredited? its truly remarkable, the cognitive dissonance hard core ideologues whose self image is so utterly invested in their set of beliefs.

you can cite facts until you are blue in the face, offer cogent arguments all day long and shove reality in their faces untill they choke on it, but they will resort to moral and factual inversion, projection of their own team's iniquity, mantra-like repetition of prepackaged public relations style talking points, or when none of this suffices...

they simply ignore, ridicule, deny...

ever watch judge judy? if it doesnt sound right its probably not. things that don't make sense are that way because of the obvious.

as late as july of 2001 condi was telling the country that saddam was not a threat, that he had been contained. the link to al qaeda was of the flimsiest and least tenable nature imaginable...certainly not anywhere near the level of proof needed to justify a war.

looks like a lie, smells like a lie...both the absurd allegation of saddam/al qaeda collusion as well as the supposed certitude that hussein was chock full of wmd's were LIES, knowingly told lies.

every arm of the federal government in this country had, by 9/11, been infiltrated with amateur neocon political hacks, from federal agencies concerned with science to regulatory agencies to every intelligence agency to the military itself. indeed, i certainly appears that bushco was intent on fulfilling grover norquist's dream of destroying the effectiveness of the federal governent, thereby enabling the profitable outsourcing, privatization, and infiltration by private entities intent upon personal aggrandizment to the detriment of our security and the general welfare of all but them.

and this intentional deception and obfuscation has had the following results...

1. unnecesary death and/or suffering of millions

2. squandering of billions and billions of our treasury as well as a big bill for years to come

3. enrichment of a very few at the cost of the many

4. loss of trust in a governent made indeed incompetant and inefectual in self fullfillingly prophetic sabatoge

5. loss of credibility worldwide and at home...

6. erosion of civil liberties

add as you see fit...

all of this upsets me, but what truly sickens me is the "unnecesary death and/or suffering of millions" part.

evil...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 1:23pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 1:23pm | ignore this

those who insist on holding onto a lie, supporting evil, enable evil. they have blood on their hands.

they surrender their souls for their pride and/or their purse. they fear the ugly truth and prefer comforting lies...

and millions suffer/die as a result...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 1:45pm
Posted by Representative-Unnamed-Lefty 09/29/2007: ....there will be no success story in Iraq, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 11:32am: ...you fellas really would make great religious fundamentalists if you could somehow accommodate God, because you certainly do cling to your discredited doctrines about Iraq when others are happy to be enlightened by the readily available data.

Well said, JONES! To be a Liberal, ones' beliefs must never change...be it Iraq, the proven inferiority of all other economic models to capitalism, that all human beings are angels until America `touched' them,......

Furthermore, To be Liberal means that OTHERS (non-Libs) must change or better, BE changed by Gov'ts they control, so that UTOPIA becomes a `eof cake'...."Elementary, my dear!"

For my Sat. pre-football teaser, see if I pegged the Fundy Libs' 9 add'l Commandments right:

....there will be no Women Nominee for POTUS, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

...there will be no Dem POTUS in the U.S., just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no De-Funding of war in Iraq, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no Universal H-Care in the U.S., just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no Recessions, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no Nuclear Iran, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no Windmills off Nantucket, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no Global Warming of consequence, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

....there will be no increases in Fed income taxes, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

Posted by Happy at 09/29/2007 @ 1:51pm
Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 11:32am

LRJONES....Who said Petraeus hired Rumsfeld? I believe it was George W. Bush....who took another SIX YEARS before discovering what a screw-up (as you apparently knew "all the time") he was.

You know Truman had a saying "The buck stops here"...but apparently with you the buck stopped at Rummy, who somehow hired himself...while Bush turned up later with Solomanic wisdom to save us from Donald by hiring Gates and Petraeus.

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 2:51pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 10:31am

Ibids?.....of the book "Al Gore: A User's Manual" by Alexander Cockburn (of "The Nation") and Jeffrey St. Clair?

No, must have missed them. Lotta right-wingers contributed to a book by two liberals on how Gore is a phoney, I'll bet, huh?

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 2:55pm
COINCIDENCE ALERT:

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/20100.html

State Dept. official threatened investigators:

WASHINGTON -- Aides to State Department Inspector General Howard Krongard threatened two investigators with retaliation this week if they cooperate with a congressional probe into Krongard's office, the chairman of a House of Representatives panel and other U.S. officials said Friday.

The allegations are the latest in a growing uproar surrounding Krongard. Current and former officials in his office charge that he impeded investigations into alleged arms smuggling by employees of the private security firm Blackwater and into faulty construction of the new U.S. Embassy in Baghdad.

DOES THE NAME "KRONGARD" RING A BELL?

He is the brother of former CIA Executive Director A. B. Krongard.

YOU MEAN "BUZZY" KRONGARD, OF 9/11 INSIDER TRADING FAME?

CIA EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR "BUZZY" KRONGARD MANAGED FIRM THAT HANDLED "PUT" OPTIONS ON UAL

http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/10_09_01_krongard.html

GOT CRIMINAL CONSPIRACY?

GOT RICO?

http://killtown.911review.org/oddities/2005.html

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:07pm
June 3, 2002: The Results of 9/11 Related Insider Trading Inquiries Are Still Unknown

A rare follow-up article about insider trading based on 9/11 foreknowledge confirms that numerous inquiries in the US and around the world are still ongoing. However, "all are treating these inquiries as if they were state secrets." The author speculates: "The silence from the investigating camps could mean any of several things: Either terrorists are responsible for the puts on the airline stocks; others besides terrorists had foreknowledge; the puts were just lucky bets by credible investors; or, there is nothing whatsoever to support the insider-trading rumors." [Insight, 6/3/2002] Another article notes that Deutsche Bank Alex Brown, the American investment banking arm of German giant Deutsche Bank, purchased at least some of these options. Deutsche Bank Alex Brown was once headed by "Buzzy" Krongard, who quit that company in March 2001 and became Executive Director of the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA). "This fact may not be significant. And then again, it may. After all, there has traditionally been a close link between the CIA, big banks, and the brokerage business." [Business Line, 2/11/2002]

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:19pm
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12/21/AR200512 2102327_5.html

The White House and the FBI Killed Operation Greenquest, Michael Chertoff's Faux Search To Track The Funding For 9/11

The strongest pushback came from the Justice Department, where the mention of DHS inspired jokes about duct tape and chartreuse threat levels. Justice officials believed DHS had "too much focus on marketing and not enough on substantive delivery," in the words of one aide to then-Attorney General John D. Ashcroft. "They were consumed with their public perception," said Mark Corallo, an Ashcroft spokesman.

Indeed, one of the new department's biggest intramural furors was a branding fight with the FBI. It began when the director of a new DHS agency known as Immigration and Customs Enforcement -- or ICE -- decided to keep the catchy acronym but change the name to Investigation and Criminal Enforcement. The FBI, it turned out, had some proprietary feelings about the word "investigation."

At the FBI's insistence, the White House had already forced ICE to give up its Operation Greenquest program investigating terrorism financing -- and forced Ridge to sign a memo pledging to keep his department away from similar investigations. But Ridge thought this spat was just silly; nobody was going to mistake ICE for the FBI.

Nevertheless, the White House told Ridge to back off.

http://www.madcowprod.com/01122004.html

Michael Chertoff, appointed by President Bush to head the Homeland Security Department, may have shielded from criminal prosecution a former client suspected by law enforcement of having funneled millions of dollars directly to Osama Bin Laden while in charge of the U.S. Government's 9.11 investigation.

"But in a hint of the gravity of his legal predicament, he was represented in court by Michael Chertoff, the former U.S. attorney in Newark and counsel to U.S. Sen. Alfonse D'Amato's Whitewater investigation." Link

Yes, the soon-to-be Homeland Security Chief Michael Chertoff represented a known bin Laden operative. Perhaps more troubling, Chertoff also headed the U.S.'s investigation into the September 11th attack. From the New Jersey Law Journal, August 4, 2003:

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:20pm
More on Chertoff from the New Yorker, November 5, 2001:

"Since the September 11th terrorist attacks, Chertoff's office has become the funnel for what is probably the most important criminal investigation in American history, as prosecutors and F.B.I. investigators pour in to seek the boss's approval. What leads can we use from the search of a hijacker's car in Portland, Maine? Where do the hijackers' credit-card records lead?… For day-to-day decisions, Chertoff has the last word"…

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=66175

Chertoff allowed scores of suspected Israeli terrorists and spies to quietly return to Israel. In several cases, Israeli suspects working for phoney moving companies, such as Urban Moving Systems from Weehawken, N.J., were caught driving moving vans which tested positive for explosives. On September 14, Dominic Suter, the owner of the moving company, which was found to be a Mossad front company, fled to Israel after FBI agents requested a second interview.

One group of 5 Israelis was seen on the roof of Urban Moving Systems videotaping and celebrating the destruction of the World Trade Center. These Israeli agents were returned to Israel on visa violations.

These Israeli suspects, and others, who had apparently transported explosives in the New York area, were allowed to return to Israel without being properly interrogated or their presence and activities in the United States having been vigorously investigated.

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:24pm
Welcome to Swift Luck Greens:

http://constantpated.blogspot.com/2006/12/illegal-us-government-war-crim es.html

http://209.157.64.201/focus/f-bloggers/1607403/posts

2006 Press Releases (Official KBR Press Release)

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE: January 24, 2006

KBR AWARDED U.S. DEPARTMENT OF HOMELAND SECURITY CONTINGENCY SUPPORT PROJECT FOR EMERGENCY SUPPORT SERVICES

ARLINGTON, Virginia – KBR announced today that its Government and Infrastructure division has been awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) contract to support the Department of Homeland Security's (DHS) U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (ICE) facilities in the event of an emergency. KBR is the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton (NYSE:HAL).

With a maximum total value of $385 million over a five-year term, consisting of a one-year based period and four one-year options, the competitively awarded contract will be executed by the U.S. Army Corps of Engineers, Fort Worth District. KBR held the previous ICE contract from 2000 through 2005.

"We are especially gratified to be awarded this contract because it builds on our extremely strong track record in the arena of emergency operations support," said Bruce Stanski, executive vice president, KBR Government and Infrastructure. "We look forward to continuing the good work we have been doing to support our customer whenever and wherever we are needed."

The contract, which is effective immediately, provides for establishing temporary detention and processing capabilities to augment existing ICE Detention and Removal Operations (DRO) Program facilities in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs. The contingency support contract provides for planning and, if required, initiation of specific engineering, construction and logistics support tasks to establish, operate and maintain one or more expansion facilities.

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:34pm
A History of Executive Orders:

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to seize all means of transportation, including personal cars, trucks or vehicles of any kind and total control over all highways, seaports, and waterways.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 10999 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and ?aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:43pm
Swift Luck Greens is right here: CYPRUS SHOSHONE COAL CORPORATION HANNA WY 82327 Latitude: 41.92 Longitude: -106.521944

Did the government close the mine in order to convert it to a working prison camp? http://www.fmshrc.gov/decisions/commission/west199934202042004.html http://tinyurl.com/y48vxo http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civilian_Inmate_Labor_Program

Wikipedia: Civilian Inmate Labor Program - The Civilian Inmate Labor Program is a program of the United States Army provided by Army Regulation 210-35[1]. The regulation, first drafted in 1997 and went under a "rapid act revision" in January 2005, provides policy for the creation of labor programs and prison camps on Army installations. The labor would be provided by persons under the supervision of the Federal Bureau of Prisons. Prison camps: The regulation also sets forth policy for the creation of prison camps on Army installations. These would be used to keep inmates of the labor programs resident on the installations. In January 2006, Kellogg, Brown and Root reported that they had received a contract from the Department of Homeland Security to expand ICE DRO facilities "in the event of an emergency influx of immigrants into the U.S., or to support the rapid development of new programs."[3] A February news article comments that the "new programs" mentioned could include the Civilian Inmate Labour Program.[4] ICE has "joint federal facilities" with the Federal Bureau of Prisons.[5]

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:48pm
WND Exclusive THE NEW WORLD DISORDER Civilian prisons coming soon to U.S. Army base near you Little-noticed regulation allows construction on military installations Posted: August 31, 2007 1:00 a.m. Eastern

By Jerome R. Corsi © 2007 WorldNetDaily.com

The U.S. Army is authorized to create civilian prison labor camps on military installations, according to a little-noticed regulation.

The camps are allowed if the request comes from the Federal Bureau of Prisons or state corrections facilities under leasing requirements defined by federal law.

WND's discovery of the regulation comes shortly after Bush administration directives expanding presidential powers during an emergency.

The Army prison camp policy is defined in Army Regulation 210-35, entitled "Installations: Civilian Inmate Labor Camps," signed Feb. 14, 2005, by Sandra R. Riley, then-administrative assistant to the secretary of the Army.

The regulation revises an earlier civilian inmate labor camp regulation signed Dec. 9, 1997, under the Clinton administration.

Ned Christensen, spokesman for the U.S. Army Installation Management Command, confirmed to WND the 2005 version of Army Regulation 210-35 is currently valid and fully operative.

The regulation specifies "the Army's primary purpose for allowing establishment of prison camps on Army installations is to use the resident nonviolent civilian inmate labor pool to work on the leased portions of the installation."

The regulations specify Army personnel running the prison camps will prepare an "Inmate Labor Plan" that will comply with 18 U.S.C. 4125(a), governing civilian inmate labor.

That section of the U.S. Code allows the U.S. attorney general to make available to the heads of U.S. departments, including the Army, the services of U.S. prisoners to engage in labor, including "constructing or repairing roads, cleaning, maintaining and reforesting public lands, building levees and constructing or repairing any other public ways or works financed wholly or in major part by funds appropriated by Congress."

The regulation currently limits the Army's Civilian Inmate Labor Program "to using inmates from facilities under the control of the Federal Bureau of Prisons," noting the bureau "provides civilian inmate labor free of charge to the Army."

The regulation specifies that a benefit of the program to the Army is "providing a source of labor at no direct cost to Army installations to accomplish tasks that would not be possible otherwise due to the manning and funding constraints under which the Army operates."

Extraordinary powers

WND previously reported that in May President Bush signed National Security Presidential Directive-51 and Homeland Security Presidential Directive-20, which granted near-dictatorial powers to the president in the event he declares a national emergency.

The directives loosely define "catastrophic emergency" as "any incident, regardless of location, that results in extraordinary levels of mass casualties, damage or disruption severely affecting the U.S. population, infrastructure, environment, economy or government functions.

When the president determines a catastrophic emergency has occurred, he can take over governmental functions at all federal, state, local, territorial and tribal levels, as well as direct private sector activities, to ensure the U.S. emerges from the emergency "with an enduring constitutional government."

That means, essentially, when the president determines a national emergency has occurred, he can confer to the office of the presidency powers usually assumed by dictators to direct any and all government and business activities until the emergency is over.

Christensen could not answer WND questions regarding whether the president could declare a national emergency under NSPD-51/HSPD-20 and instruct the Bureau of Prisons to have the Army construct civilian prison camps.

"The last time civilians were incarcerated on U.S. Army installations was when the Japanese were interred during World War II," Christensen told WND.

Still, Christensen acknowledged that Fort Dix has two civilian labor prisons on its property, one federal and one state.

"Fort Dix routinely uses inmate labor for grounds maintenance and some other manual labor, such as filling sandbags," Christensen told WND in an e-mail. "So, the Fort Dix program is used to provide activity for trusted inmates and labor to the government at no cost."

WND also reported KBR, formerly the engineering and construction subsidiary of Halliburton Co., has a contingency contract in place with the Department of Homeland Security to construct detention facilities in the event of a national emergency.

Immigration and Customs Enforcement, or ICE, spokeswoman Julie Zuieback confirmed to WND on May 29 that the Department of Homeland Security in January awarded KBR a $385 million contract to construct detention facilities on a contingency basis.

Christensen said it was outside his area to comment on whether the DHS could ask KBR to build a civilian prison labor camp on an Army installation.

WND called the White House and the Department of Homeland Security and left detailed messages about the substance of this story but received no response.

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 3:58pm
Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 2:55pm

Fritta, I'd say most people don't buy it as much as 'hsuB on a Slouch'

http://hnn.us/articles/7106.html as per a PhD

vs. ...? A Larouche'r, http://tinyurl.com/32s69h

So Frita was a pro-Larouche'r before she was an anti-Larouche'r... is that like being pro-impeachment before you were anti-impeachment...

BTW

And the reason Al Gore isn't rated higher in the polls:

"Virtually all of the other pollsters that include non-candidates like Gore, Gingrich and (technically) Fred Thompson start with a trial-heat question that includes all possible candidates and then ask respondents for their "second choice." They can then re-allocate the second choices of Gore supporters to calculate a "vote without Gore."

EPIC/MRA, on the other hand, did things differently. For each party, they first asked voters to choose from the "announced candidates" for president and then presented a choice from what they described as an "expanded list" of candidates.

That their approach showed greater support for Gore is not surprising. Presumably, many of Gore's potential backers take him at his word when he says he has no plans to run and tend to choose other candidates. However, Gore does much better when a pollster plays "what if" and says, in essence, "imagine that Al Gore decides to run."

EPIC/MRA for The Detroit News WXYZ TV

8/11/2007 Michigan

Al Gore _________ 36%

Hillary Clinton ____ 32%

Barack Obama ____16%

John Edwards ______8%

Joe Biden _________1%

Bill Richardson _____1%

Dennis Kucinich ____1%

Wesley Clark ______1%

Unsure ___________4%

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/al_gore_ahead_in_michigan.php

******************

Gore Ahead of Hillary in New Hampshire

This poll convinces me more than ever that Al Gore is Hillary Rodham's only credible threat regarding the Democratic nomination:

A New Hampshire presidential poll by WHDH-TV and Suffolk University shows that local Democrats prefer Al Gore to any of the current contenders.

Hillary Clinton has a solid lead over the rest of the current Democratic field. The poll, released this afternoon, shows 37 percent of likely Democratic voters backing Clinton or leaning towards her. Barack Obama was at 19 percent, with both John Edwards and Bill Richardson at 9 percent.

Al Gore, however, could enter the race as the leader. When his name is added, Clinton loses more than a quarter of her support, while Gore is backed by 32 percent.

http://race42008.com/2007/06/30/gore-ahead-of-hillary-in-new-hampshire/

******************

"Former Vice President Al Gore, who has not declared his candidacy for the 2008 presidential nomination, runs better in Pennsylvania than any Democrat against the Republican front runner, former New York City Mayor Rudolph Giuliani: Gore has 45 percent to Giuliani's 44 percent, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today."

http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x1327.xml?ReleaseID=1070

******************

http://tinyurl.com/yrpeep

http://tinyurl.com/3crql8

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 4:00pm
er, more readable:

Lotta right-wingers contributed to a book by two liberals on how Gore is a phoney, I'll bet, huh?

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 2:55pm

Fritta, I'd say most people don't buy it as much as 'hsuB on a Slouch'

http://hnn.us/articles/7106.html

as per a PhD vs. ...? A Larouche'r,

http://tinyurl.com/32s69h

So Frita was a pro-Larouche'r before she was an anti-Larouche'r... is that like being pro-impeachment before you were anti-impeachment...

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 4:06pm
Operation Cable Splicer and Garden Plot are the two sub programs which will be implemented once the Rex 84 program is initiated for its proper purpose. Garden Plot is the program to control the population. Cable Splicer is the program for an orderly takeover of the state and local governments by the federal government. FEMA is the executive arm of the coming police state and thus will head up all operations. The Presidential Executive Orders already listed on the Federal Register also are part of the legal framework for this operation.

The camps all have railroad facilities as well as roads leading to and from the detention facilities.

SWIFT LUCK GREENS LOCATION:

http://www.gorissen.info/Pierre/maps/googleMapLocationv4.php?lat=41.92&l on=-106.521944&setLatLon=Set

RAIL LINES:

http://www.multimap.com/map/browse.cgi?client=public&X=-11859000.6865528 &Y=5118000.35541027&width=700&height=400&gride=&gridn=&srec=0&coordsys=m ercator&db=&addr1=&addr2=&addr3=&pc=&advanced=&local=&localinfosel=&kw=& inmap=&table=&ovtype=&keepicon=&zm=0&out.x=8&out.y=8&scale=25000

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 4:11pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 10:06am

no need to be rude because you disagree with what i believe.

better yet, what you assume i believe.

i shall shred your "argument" when i get a chance.

just think of canada the next time you fill up the ol' gas tank.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 4:22pm
You are being paid in an inflating currency. Please think about how that impacts you.

Posted by MICKRUSSOM 09/29/2007 @ 1:17pm

i sure hope that balloon don't break soon.

fractional reserve banking--the greedy man's pipe dream.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 4:23pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 10:47am

like i keep saying--let some rich dude who's profiting from the madness ADOPT a wounded vet and care for them for the rest of the poor soul's life.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 4:27pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 4:06pm

Sorry, HSUB, no fan of Looney Lyndon...and in 32 days, my unfortunate prediction in opposition to yours...comes true.

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 4:29pm
Happy-You are incorrect in your belief that liberals views never change.It's rare to find a liberal in my age group whose views have not changed.Nothing has happened in Iraq that would cause our views to change.I don't know any liberals who believe that people are angels until America touches them.Most liberals are capitalists.Are you sure that you know what a liberal is?Most of you confuse liberals with the far left.

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/29/2007 @ 4:29pm
Posted by LRJONES4 09/29/2007 @ 11:32am

have you perused the stats i kindly posted for you?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 4:30pm
http://www.couragetoresist.org/x/content/view/443/1/

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 5:04pm
Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 4:29pm

But Frita, like your take on impeachment, you advocate for a writer that uses Larouche's info, yet state you're against Larouche... and you state you're pro-impeachment, but advocate against it.... very limp flip-floppy straw dildos you play with there Frita.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 5:09pm
o.k. PONTIFICUS here we go:

firstly, let me repeat what i have said many times: the U.S.A is a far different beast than the greedy people that determine its foreign and domestic policy. only a fool believes that representational government exists.

the music i play is predominantly american music. think of a world sans jazz, blues, rock, funk, bluegrass.............

food. gumbo, grits, cornbread, tex-mex...............

and art and architecture and science and philosophy.

your constitution rocks. ('cept the gun part)

and now to use the great JORCHEIM's methodology, we shall shred:

you said:

Interesting. So now you blame America for creating Saddam in the first place?

i say:

well kinda, yeah.

here's some evidence (please read carefully. if i post a link i doubt you'll read it so here goes a nicely summarized article):

Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot

Friday, April 11, 2003

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials. United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

Close Ties With Baath Party

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam to Syria

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and PUT HIM THROUGH A BRIEF TRAINING COURSE, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

Communists Gunned Down

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

Relationship Intensifies

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.

Copyright 2003 by United Press International.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/10/205859.shtml

how's that?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 5:21pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8-m5P3KDwU&NR=1

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 5:29pm
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/27273

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 5:34pm
you said:

The vast majority of people in the US pay for their own health care, too. And we don't have to go to the government to get it. And when you folks in Canada run into rationing, you come here. But if we get socialized medicine like yours, where are WE going to go? Also, most of the medical technology you Canadians rely on is created here, so your socialized system is, in that sense, sucking off of our system too.

i say:

it's not a perfect system here, but it has worked well for my family. does it really make sense to have a FOR-PROFIT health care system? our system is NON-PROFIT health insurance. the majority of people i know would not be able to afford any health care under your "system". if there are short-comings in our system, most have been brought about by politicians acting on behalf of their insurance industry buddies who froth at the mouth when they look at all the MONEY being made south of the border.

as for medical technology, i shall repost this very long list i assembled for JOHN MAASCH when he espoused a similar pointed view:

how's this?:

"We can actually potentially repair and regenerate the injured nervous system," says Michael Fehlings, M.D., Ph.D., a neurosurgeon at Toronto Western Hospital in Canada.

Dr. Fehlings is studying Cethrin, a drug given during spinal surgery.

"You apply this directly over top of the exposed spinal cord," he says.

The drug works by blocking the pathway that prevents nerve cells from regenerating. In a study of 37 patients with severe injuries, one-third had a significant recovery. One in five had a major recovery.

or this:

Fertility experts are hailing a medical breakthrough at McGill University.

More news from Montreal

A baby grown from an egg ripened in a laboratory, outside the mother's body, was born last August in Montreal. Experts say the process used to produce it is a medical breakthrough. They say it gives hope to women unable to produce eggs suitable for fertilization.

or this:

19 Feb 2007

Local Massachusetts Doctor Using A New Medical Breakthrough That Is Providing Relief To 86% Of People Who Suffer Chronic Back Pain* (*According To American Journal Of Pain Management)

A proven new non-surgical technology originally developed by a Canadian Medical Surgeon eliminates low back pain by actually correcting the problem at its source. It's called the "Lordex Lumbar Spine System," and it uses a special kind of therapy called "closed decompression" that alleviates pain by taking pressure off the nerves in the lower back (the "lumbar " region of the spine).

or this [from the university of toronto (public)]

2004 Cameron A. Ackerley, Peter R. Durie, M. James Phillips, Geraldine Kent described the definitive experimental model of Cystic Fibrosis in which the whole spectrum of organ pathology seen in man is reproduced. This model is now the standard for investigative work in cystic fibrosis e.g. pre-clinical gene therapy studies . John W. Callahan with Don J. Mahuran and Richard D. Bagshaw published a comprehensive proteomic file of lysososomal integral-membrane proteins which is an invaluable clinical and research resource.

2003 Tom Wolever identifies that Acarbose improves the glycemic profile and insulin sensitivity in elderly patients with type 2 diabetes who are inadequately controlled on diet alone.

Raymond Tellier, Susan Richardson, Anne Matlow and co-workers played important roles in the 2003 Toronto SARS outbreak, developing the first molecular diagnostic test for SARS-Co V in Toronto (Tellier), for describing SARS infection in children (Richardson, Tellier, Matlow), for development of infection control guidelines for adults and children (Matlow), and for developing and refining diagnostic testing for SARS-Co V infection (Richardson, Tellier).

2002 Josef Penninger and Peter Backx Scientists have identified two genes, known as angiotesin converting enzyme (ACE) 1 and 2, with critical roles in heart function – one contributes to heart failure and the other protects against it

Tom Wolever discovered that Acarbose prevents type 2 diabetes. Low glycemic improves beta-cell function in the people with impaired glucose.

Tony Pawson and Frank Sicheri solved the structure of a protein, called EphB2, a molecule that is known to be active in colon cancer. This work revealed how a particular part of the EphB2 protein, called the juxtamembrane region, is responsible for turning the protein on.

Khosrow Adeli discovered the underlying mechanism of diabetic dyslipidemia using an animal model which has far reaching implications in the understanding and management of both obesity and diabetes.

M. James Phillips, Gary A Levy, Philip A. Marsden and co-workers discovered the critical involvement of the human fgl2 (prothrombinase) gene in the pathogenesis of fulminant viral hepatitis in man as had been shown in mice.

2001 Tony Pawson and Mike Tyers have identified a way in which our cells regulate when and if genetic material (DNA) is duplicated.

M. James Phillips, Renxue Wang, Ibrahim M. Yousef, Victor Ling and co-workers discovered that targeted deletion of the main bile acid transporter in mice (spgp gene) was non-fatal because the animals developed a new polyhydroxylated bile acid which is excreted by a previously unknown canalicular membrane bile acid transporter.

Jim Dennis and others identified the Mgat5 gene and a family of Sugar-binding proteins called galectins as a key regulator of T cells in the immune system. Benoit Bruneau and others have created the first mouse model relevant to the study of congenital heart disease in humans.

Gabrielle deVeber completed the first large-scale, multi-centre study to determine the incidence and characteristics of sinovenous thrombosis, a type of stroke that occurs in children due to blood clots blocking the brain's venous flow, establishing that this condition in children is a serious disorder that results in neurological impairment or death in half the cases.

Cynthia Guidos, identified an important mechanism that determines how white blood cells develop. This discovery provides insight on how the immune system develops, both in normal and disease states.

Michael Salter in collaboration with Josef Penninger's laboratory came to the discovery of a new genetic mechanism involved in pain modulation that could lead to an entirely new approach to pain control.

Khosrow Adeli provided the first evidence that a link exists between an insulin signalling gene (Protein Tyrosine Phosphatase 1B) and the development of hyperlipidemia (increased blood levels of cholesterol and triglycerides) in an animal models of diabetes.

Stephen Scherer, and Lucy Osborne identified a previously unknown genetic basis for Williams syndrome. Williams syndrome is a genetic condition (estimated to occur in one in 20,000 people worldwide) which causes medical and developmental problems.

Charles Deber discovered a protein defect that underlies a milder form of cystic fibrosis, also known as pancreatic sufficient CF, which occurs in 10-15 per cent of CF patients.

Michael Dosch led a team of researchers to determine that multiple sclerosis (MS) and type I (juvenile) diabetes mellitus are far more closely linked than previously thought, including the role cow milk protein as a risk factor in the development of both diseases for people who are genetically susceptible.

Lori West lead her research team to discover that infant heart transplants can be performed safely and successfully despite major blood type incompatibility between the donor and the recipient.

Stephen Scherer and post-doctoral fellow Kazukiko Nakabayashi discovered what the largest gene is possibly in the human genome, with 100 times the chemical agents than the average gene.

Johanna Rommens, identified the ELAC2 gene that leads to inherited prostate cancer.

Josef Penninger and others identify the CD45 protein, one of many switches responsible for turning off hormones and proteins that control the human immune system.

2000 Ernest Cutz discovered a new form of congenital surfactant deficiency and a new variant of pulmonary interstitial lung disease in infants.

Tony Miller, Cornelia Baines and others report results from the Canadian National Breast Screening Study for women age 50 to 59. The study shows more cancer detection for women undergoing annual mammography in addition to clinical breast exam and self-examination, but early diagnosis of breast cancer is not resulting in fewer deaths.

Mary Hannah and others complete the International Term Breech Trial and discover that delivery by caesarean section is best for breech babies at term and does not increase the risk for the mother.

Reza Emami develops a software program designed to help identify and classify genes that are linked to illness. After studying the entire genome of an organism and grouping similar genes into families, the program can look at a virus or tumour and identify the genes that have an impact on the infected cell.

Janet Rossant is elected to the Royal Society in recognition of her work on the genetic control of normal and abnormal development in the early mouse embryo that provides insight into what can go wrong in early pregnancy.

Peter St George-Hyslop and others announce that a new Alzheimer's vaccine is ready to be tested on human subjects.

Geoff Clarke and others demonstrate that mutant genes that contribute to inherited neurodegenerative conditions like retinal degeneration and Parkinson's disease confer a constant risk of programmed cell death.

Josef Penninger and others discover a protein that suppresses colorectal cancer in mice and human cell cultures.

Roderick McInnes and others identify retinal stem cells in the adult eye, a discovery that opens the door for retinal regeneration as a possible cure for damaged or diseased eyes.

Emanuela Mundo and others identify a genetic variable prevalent in individuals with obsessive-compulsive disorder, a discovery that may provide insight into the cause and treatment of this disease.

or this:

On the horizon

In 1997, ZEN spent 33 % of its $729 mn R&D budget in the cancer area. It has seven new anti cancer compounds in development to treat breast, colorectal, and non-small-cell lung (NSCL) cancer. Of these, closest to commercialization is Faslodex (ZD 9238), a pure anti- estrogen now in Phase III clinical development for patients with advanced breast cancer.ZEN completed a royalty deal with Canada's AnorMED (Langley BC) to license the latter's anti cancer agent AMD 473, a third-generation platinum compound active against cisplatin- and carboplatin-resistant tumors in animal studies. It may work on humans for NSCL, ovarian, lung, colorectal, and bladder cancers. Phase I clinical trials started in 1997. by Vivian Lewis

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 5:36pm
also PONTI

i sincerely hope you never succumb to the disasters of diabetes, but if you do, you may want to thank this man:

Frederick Banting [en.wikipedia.org]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 5:39pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 5:09pm

HSUB, I wasn't "advocating" it...just pointing it out.

and of course getting you hot under the collar again, for DARING to say something against Al Gore the White (with help from a "Nation" writer).

heheh

BTW, think he'll announce on the 17th, when he returns from Stockholm with his Peace Prize?

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 5:47pm
BTW, here's a fun clip from YouTube...

for the next debate on gay rights [youtube.com]

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 5:49pm
Krongard Brothers - CO-CONSPIRATORS:

http://pogoblog.typepad.com/pogo/2007/09/what-a-tangled-.html

http://www.tpmmuckraker.com/archives/004232.php#more

http://www.harpers.org/archive/2006/09/sb-revolving-door-blackwater-1158 094722

A number of senior CIA and Pentagon officials have taken top jobs at Blackwater, including firm vice chairman Cofer Black, who was the Bush Administration's top counterterrorism official at the time of the 9/11 attacks (and who famously said in 2002, "There was before 9/11 and after 9/11. After 9/11, the gloves came off.") Robert Young Pelton, author of the new book, Licensed to Kill , says that an early Blackwater contract--a secret no-bid $5.4 million deal with the CIA--came in 2002 after Prince placed a call to Buzzy Krongard, who was then the CIA's executive director.

PRINCE GROUP?

http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=108003&ran=206428

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 5:54pm
PONTIFICUS

you said:

But you still espouse a guaranteed income, even for those who DON'T work.

i say:

when did i say that? my personal view is that i think welfare is a good thing. however, if people can move, they should work for that cheque. i'd have them all planting trees!

you said:

You're going to make a successful system better by changing its aspects to be more in line with one that has failed? The fundamental philosophical fallacy of all liberals. Thanks for sharing.

i say:

it seems you think i advocate communism. no, i have never said that. sure is see good things in communism and bad things, too. just like in capitalism.

in a frosty world, capitalism would be tempered by a willingness to share some of the bounty ripped from the earth with those not fortunate enough to do the ripping. and more importantly, i do advocate strict environmental regulation of industry. do you want Dow Chemical next door to your home?

you said:

I should add, FROSTY, that you Canadians also don't contribute squat to your own defense. Your protestation will be, of course, that defense isn't necessary, the world is a wonderful place where civilized people settle their differences over tea at the United Nations. All of this is a very pleasant and unshakable dream for you, I know. Of course, as wiser heads have stated, people like you sleep well because rough men are willing to do the things necessary to keep chowderheads like you safe in your delusions.

i say:

SOMME, VIMY RIDGE, DIEPPE, NORMANDY, KOREA, even your folly in VIETNAM, and now, AFGHANISTAN.

do you know what NORAD is?

hitler had to be stopped. if such a thing arose again, i would fight, just as my antecedents have done.

but iraq, come on. a war for greed. why not remove the despots in burma, too? why not?

and afghanistan. a war for a gas pipeline.

finally, i am no "chowderhead". i am not a "liberal". and you do not "see" where i am coming from because you only "see" my words and never "listen" to my ideas.

i am a human who cares about humans and everything else living on this big ol' rock.

you have no idea what i am.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 5:56pm
BTW, here's a fun clip from YouTube...

for the next debate on gay rights [youtube.com]

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 5:49pm

THE IGNORANT TIGHT ASS CLUB!!!!!!!!!!!!

but hey, the bible's got some good stuff. check out this recipe:

"Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself.--ezekiel 4:9

however, god was a little to general with this one:

Then God said, "I give you every seed-bearing plant on the face of the whole earth and every tree that has fruit with seed in it. They will be yours for food.--genesis 1:29

dunno, i'll stay away from the deadly-nightshade and hemlock.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 6:12pm
HSUB, I wasn't "advocating" it...just pointing it out.

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 5:47pm

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 5:49pm

Er, Frita wasn't the English PhD just pointing out what the Bible says about gays?

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 6:22pm
oh..so over! mrs. clinton is running away with the election!!!!

NOT! obama in the lead in iowa!

NOT OVER! NOT ALL DECIDED!

the fat lady has yet to sing!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 6:45pm
We need to unveil the new con repubs, servicers of dic'tator philosophy, for the ignorant and corrupt war mongers they are. For if Islam can face their own demons-- why can't we:

Unveiling men in the Arab world By Sami Moubayed

DAMASCUS-

...

"Most men in our societies are more veiled than any of these women. A man's veil is an abstract one, created by him at will and not imposed by God. It is a veil against freedom and education. It is a veil against new ideas and dialogue. It is this man-veil that makes him walk up to the Danish Embassy and set it ablaze, thinking that this will lead him directly to heaven.

It is this man-veil that accounts today for so much ignorance in the Arab and Muslim world, and results in statements like those of Ezzat Attiya or the recent one pertaining to actresses and their marriage scenes. It is this man-veil that produces men who cannot accept women as equals, or lets them debate whether a woman's toes should be revealed in public, while other people around the world are studying astronomy, genetics, and informatics.

It is this man-veil that wrongly dwarfs Islam in the eyes of the West from a great religion discussing grand ideas to a mob movement against a bunch of silly cartoons, or Rushdie. It is this man-veil that lets men fear and hate the West. It is this man-veil that has produced men who value and have nourished themselves on ignorance and violence - at will - and contributed nothing to civilization for the past 500 years.

When Mustapha al-Akkad produced Al-Risala (known as Mohammad, Messenger of God or The Message in English) in the 1970s, a Hollywood classic about the early days of Islam starring Anthony Quinn, Muslim scholars outlawed the film because it showed the cane and camel of the Prophet. That movie, however, had done Islam and the Arabs a great service in the Western world. Akkad met with Iranian president Mohammad Khatami - a truly unveiled and intelligent Muslim - who said that in spreading the faith, the movie ranked second only to the Koran, because it attracted people to Islam.

Yes, men (before women) should unveil their minds throughout the Arab and Muslim world."

Sami Moubayed is a Syrian political analyst.

(Copyright 2007 Asia Times Online Ltd. All rights reserved.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/II29Ak03.html

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 7:13pm
nothing against the bible. some great stuff. but i have to disagree with some of it. and to those who disagree with none, i offer some "judgements" i hope never come about (i abhor all violence), however fitting they may be.

DEATH PENALTY » For murder (Genesis 9:5,6; Numbers 35:16-21,30-33; Deuteronomy 17:6)

[good-bye bushco.]

DEATH PENALTY » For adultery (Leviticus 20:10; Deuteronomy 22:24)

[bye-bye newt and rush]

DEATH PENALTY » For sodomy (Leviticus 18:22;20:13)

[adios senator craig]

DEATH PENALTY » For sexual immorality (Deuteronomy 22:21-24)

[hasta luego senator vitter]

DEATH PENALTY » For perjury (Zechariah 5:4)

[see ya' beto gonzales]

DEATH PENALTY » For kidnapping (Exodus 21:16; Deuteronomy 24:7)

[so long, CIA]

DEATH PENALTY » For the promiscuousness of a priest's daughter (Leviticus 21:9)

[sorry, jenna and the other one]

DEATH PENALTY » For witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)

[this is yours, mr. cheney]

DEATH PENALTY » For offering human sacrifice (Leviticus 20:2-5)

[arrivederci, mr. rumsfeld]

DEATH PENALTY » For stealing (Zechariah 5:3,4)

[auf wiedersehen KBR, Halliburton and Bechtel]

DEATH PENALTY » For desecrating the Sabbath day (Exodus 35:2; Numbers 15:32-36)

[again to bushco. for every sunday in iraq]

DEATH PENALTY » For prophesying falsely, or propagating false doctrines (Deuteronomy 13:1-10)

[shalom shalom, mr. kristol]

DEATH PENALTY » For refusing to abide by the decision of the court (Deuteronomy 17:12)

[damn, bushco. again!]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 7:19pm
excellent rebuttal (with great pics) of Rush's belittling of phoney soldiers by one of the phoneys who served in iraq [armyofdude.blogspot.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 7:38pm
photo essays by "better-off" iraqi women [tinyurl.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 7:42pm
on the rise of theocracy is basra and beyond [csmonitor.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 7:47pm
another canadian coward, PONTIFICUS [tinyurl.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 7:50pm
what does mr gore do with the $200 per person he charges to see him speak? [tinyurl.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 8:05pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 6:22pm

A book about Al Gore being a phoney...is equivalent to the Bible?!?!?

LOL!

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 8:47pm
BTW, HSUB...I know why exposure of that book would scare you so much.

If it was a bunch of RIGHT-wingers attacking "old old Gore", "old Gore", or even "new Gore"...nothing special. But LEFT wingers, pointing out how he was once "pro-life"....pushed NAFTA (debating Perot even)...helped out Monsanto and Occidental Petroleum....and of course Tipper's brush with censorship...

that's scary and something that Gore 3.0 and his followers don't want brought out of Winston Smith's memory hole! (here's where you make a stupid joke about "memory HOLE"...Beavis...heheh)

Posted by Mask at 09/29/2007 @ 8:54pm
My daughter's second grade teacher couldn't spell either. I don't blame her, or the victims of the teaching of her and her ilk. I blame an inherently flawed system that produces and protects such incompetence, and those who blindly defend it and wish to perpetuate and expand it to other areas, like health care. You should too.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 12:32am

Ponti, You wish to extend this system into other countries. P.S. You didn't hit a nerve or anything of the like, I just had a few too many beers is all.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:01pm
FROSTY, you excel at making the perfect the enemy of the good. Considering the way we found Iraq, you can hardly fault it for being less than perfect now

Ponti, Just how much crack to you smoke a night? Iraq is in shambles right now. It was in waaay better shape before we got there. They don't have any electricity, the place is a war zone and people are fleeing the country. If that is your idea of putting things to right, I'm afraid of what you think of leaving things in a mess is.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:09pm
The vast majority of people in the US pay for their own health care, too. And we don't have to go to the government to get it. And when you folks in Canada run into rationing, you come here. But if we get socialized medicine like yours, where are WE going to go? Also, most of the medical technology you Canadians rely on is created here, so your socialized system is, in that sense, sucking off of our system too. If we socialize health care in the US, there will be few if any advances because there will be no more incentives to create them. Plus, we will have rationing everywhere, and the quality of health care will decline dramatically for everyone.

Ponti, I don't know where you live, but where I live, most of the doctors are from India and a lot of the people making the break throughs are from other countries.

Just because we are U.S. citizens doesn't make us any smarter or better than anyone else. We just happen to have a large population using the same currency and have a system that has worked fairly well over our brief time as a nation. If European countries hadn't been so petty with each other over the centuries, they'd be a dominate force just like the U.S., Soviet Union and China.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:15pm
you don't consider being a banker honest labor?

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/29/2007 @ 10:25am

No.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:16pm
HSUB, I wasn't "advocating" it...just pointing it out.

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 5:47pm

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 5:49pm

Er, Frita wasn't the English PhD just pointing out what the Bible says about gays?

Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 6:22pm

BTW, HSUB...I know why exposure of that book would scare you so much.

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 8:47pm

No one should ever wonder again about Frita's propensity for creating, playing with and loosing herself totally in her own straw dildos... or is it simply her self-deluded hypocrisy.

Who knows, er, who cares...

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 9:23pm
....there will be no increases in Fed income taxes, just as there has not been one for the last four years.

Posted by HAPPY 09/29/2007 @ 1:51pm

Happy, If there aren't any federal increases on income taxes, what is going to pay for the "war on terror"? Take all the insurance money from the poor kids, take all the money from social security and retired folks to pay for a war? That's grand thinking.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:24pm
OBAMA LEADING IN IOWA. WHO'S OBAMA? WHO IS THIS NON-HILLARY? A NON 50 FOOT QUEENIE? THE NON-ANNOINTED (BY HERSELF)?

WATCH OUT HILL! THE O-TRAIN'S PICKING UP STEAM! WOOOO WOOOO!

THE LITTLE O-TRAIN WHO COULD...CRESTING THE HILL IN IOWA! I KNEW HE COULd, I KNEW HE COULD I KNEW HE COULD!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 9:27pm
DEATH PENALTY » For witchcraft (Exodus 22:18)

[this is yours, mr. cheney]

Frosty,

Liked that one.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:30pm
Frita is such a sad straw dildo player. Why does she delude herself so? Perhaps her self-exposer was too much not to create a few cheap ones to cover her nakedness. She's so modest as we all know; even used the Bible as cover.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 9:37pm
you don't consider being a banker honest labor?

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/29/2007 @ 10:25am

No.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/29/2007 @ 9:16pm

JR, Let me restate my position here. Working for a bank may very well be honest labor, but owning one isn't. Look at what the fine banks of this country did to the people during the stock market crash which caused the depression.

Bank owners take no risk and just profit like the greedy money swindling scumbags they are. The fed guarantees their profits by adjusting the interest rates and it's a nod and wink code system that non of us are privy to. Kind of a stacked deck wouldn't you say?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 9:38pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/29/2007 @ 9:15pm

thanks for the help shredding PONTIFICUS' folly.

do you think he'll read about saddam's cia tainted past?

i'll make sure he sees it!!!!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 9:44pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 9:27pm

go get'em IBIBIBBBLBLBLBLBLBLBLBLE,

put some dents in the QUEENIE MACHINIE*

*(thanks, HAPPY)

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 9:50pm
thanks for the help shredding PONTIFICUS' folly.

do you think he'll read about saddam's cia tainted past?

i'll make sure he sees it!!!!

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 9:44pm

Hi Frosty,

I don't think the Pontificator would believe it if he read it. Guys like him are so brainwashed they can't get past what their 6th grade teacher told them about U.S. history....by the way, other countries don't have any history of bravery you know, just the U.S.

I've pointed this out before that people like Ponti don't know Canadian soldiers fought side by side with the U.S. and distinguished themselves with great honor, but people like Ponti, Rio and Liverlips think the U.S. singlehandedly won every war we've been in and that we bailed everyone else out of trouble and then were so damn nice that we rebuilt their countries for them. They don't think to wonder who the new owners are of the major industries of some of these countries we rebuilt.

A famous actor most of these people would know would be Scotty off Star Trek. I believe one of his fingers was shot off at the Normandy Landing during the D-Day invasion, but he's a Canadian so I guess his sacrifice didn't count nor did the Russians, Chinese, French and Polish underground etc.

I'm not joking, that's what these guys think. The one thing I will give them is that they aren't devious, well, maybe Happy is, but the rest of them bought the stories hook, line and sinker.

I don't undermine what my grandparents and great grandparents generations fought for and did. I believe they were much tougher and braver than we are now. As a matter of fact, I think a lot of them are turning in the graves seeing what has become of this country they fought for.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 10:14pm
here's some saturday late night fun:

match the quote with the poster. no googling allowed. some names appear twice or more. if your name isn't here, it will be next time.

1) However, another Reagan would win in a land slide...

2) he's a wartime pres...a decider...

3) The USS Titanic, a ship of fools, we shall become, if Hillary is elected. And that is SO likely -

4) Texas is the right place for it to go as I've seen what they do to ticks there.

5) it's very creepy

6) Sure he is going for an H-bomb to drop on Israel, then the U.S.A.! Who in their right mind does not know this?

7) OOPs! Sorry, wrong thread.

8) I appologize for sloppy posting tonite: just tired.

9) You've gotta watch something else besides Fox News you old fool. You don't know what the hell you're talking about.

10) Don't get too excited....nobody is going to open a factory here to make GI Joes or Wal-Mart bicycles!

11) then why the HELL were you disagreeing with me over it?!?!?!?

12) got to run, time to cook dinner

13) The reason i post heavey or long articles is because the good ones get blocked by the corporations and CIA monitoring the internet.

14) FRANK's right....

15) Thank you Karl Rove for a job well done. Being despised by these leftists is a badge of honor. I look forward to your brilliant contributions to the 2008 campaign

a) HAPPY

b) MASK

c) ZERO

d) RIO BRAVO

e) HSUBFOOLS

f) MTSPENCE05

g) JOHN MAASCH

h) RESE

i) WILL C.

j) LVLIBERTY1

k) CHIP THORNTON

l) IBBLEBLIBBLE

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 10:18pm
LRJONES....Who said Petraeus hired Rumsfeld? I believe it was George W. Bush....who took another SIX YEARS before discovering what a screw-up (as you apparently knew "all the time") he was.

.while Bush turned up later with Solomanic wisdom to save us from Donald by hiring Gates and Petraeus.

Posted by MASK 09/29/2007 @ 2:51pm Mask,

It hardly matters who knew what and when. One implication that could be drawn from your previous post was that Gates and Petraeus hired Rumsfeld. I think most would see my response as a reductio absurdum statement.

It is in retrospect that the divergence between what Bush thought he was getting and what Rumsfeld, along with Casey and Abizaid intended to deliver has become obvious. My understanding is that enough Republican pollies shouted persistently in George's ear, about Rumsfeld and his do nothing generals, until he got the message.

My perception is that for the most part the anti-war faction filters very selectively their data and then sets it in stone on the Law of the Medes and Persian principle. Iraq is a fluid and dynamic situation so that sort of approach is likely to get you caught with your pants down.

Many in the anti-war brigade fondly imagine they have been accurate foretellers of what would happen in Iraq. The most basic and vital truth, seemly immune to the breathless band of foretellers, is that after 4.5 years the insurgents or nationalists, as many on the left fondly think of those who blow up, behead, torture and displace from their homes and districts, many thousands of their own Iraqi brothers and sisters, have been totally unable to dislodge a relatively small US force. That it is still there supporting and being supported by the democratically elected government, is about the strongest evidence that all the polls which indicate a majority of Iraqis want the US to stay until their nation can protect it's citizens from it's "nationalists", is "gospel truth" and all the convoluted attempts by the anti-war apostles serve only their own selfish, emotional, intellectual and ideological needs and not the more fundamental needs of security and the basics of life that most Iraqis crave

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/29/2007 @ 10:20pm
Thanks FZ if you posted the link:

"But what happened in Iraq went beyond inefficiency, beyond fraud even. This was about the business of government being corrupted by the profit motive to such an extraordinary degree that now we all have to wonder how we will ever be able to depend on the state to do its job in the future. If catastrophic failure is worth billions, where's the incentive to deliver success? There's no profit in patriotism, no cost-plus angle on common decency. Sixty years after America liberated Europe, those are just words, and words don't pay the bills."

http://tinyurl.com/2lc8jo

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:27pm
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/29/2007 @ 10:14pm

hey wolfman,

don't worry about your antecedents being tougher or braver. they were scared shitless on the battlefield, like any sensible person would be. they gained notoriety for bravery because the circumstance (principally ww2 and kinda ww1) warranted it.

the u.s. is still a great place, founded on great ideals. and folks like you can still keep it that way, but it's getting harder with each passing nanosecond.

the country that they fought for is still there, it's just being hidden by a plasticized, corporate gloss and a scandal-plagued, inept, corrupt [insert negative adjective] administration.

"get up, stand up!" -- bob marley

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 10:28pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 8:05pm

er, fund raising... October, HELLO!

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/29/2007 @ 10:32pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 10:27pm

any time, brother

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 10:40pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/29/2007 @ 10:32pm

we'll see.

mr. gore's a smart dude. that would sure help in the white house.

but he's made some huge NAFTA sized mistakes, too.

it's good to have many baskets for many eggs.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 10:42pm
"get up, stand up!" -- bob marley

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 10:28pm

Frosty, Once again, you are precise with your words. The thing that bothers me is that it is very difficult for us lowly citizens to do much. Our vote is really the only tool we have aside from outright anarchy.

It's very scary indeed when the president and vice president of your own country hijack the government and have no interest in bettering the country the are supposed to serve.

I was playing my youngest daughter's favorite song today, Let It Be by the Beatles and thought, maybe there really will be an answer to all of this crap going on now. But, us small fry just have to keep taking it up the ass while the rich just keep getting richer and cranking down the thumbscrews on the rest of us.

It is somewhat disheartening when some of my fellow countrymen don't even realize they are the ones being screwed and keep buying into political slogans and words designed to capture their vote, but nothing more.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 10:51pm
Hey LR Jones, how about this: "most of the pro-war demons (death angels is just that: demons) think it is OK to put the carriage before the horse". Yes, that is what you do: 1st weapons of m.d., none? then Saddam..no real threat from his party? then Al-Qaeda? not very significant...now it is the civil war...only excuses that warmongers exhibit up to the front to back the real reasons for the war that are other political and economical reasons. So if you love it, why don't you go there?

Who are you to decide what is good or bad for the Iraqi people? They had an election, yes, directed and conditioned by the US. They deserve to create their nation to their will. They don't even have to be a democracy, if they wish not to. The first issue about being free is not to be occupied by a foreign power. Everyone has the right to be wrong once, they should learn from their experiences, they won't learn from imposed ideas. It is warmongers like you that are wrong all the time and don't have the courage to spell it out.

Some years ago, "terrorists" took over a dock and ship that was receiving merchandise from the power that occupied their country. These were patriots, and it was the American Revolution. Did England at some point consider them terrorists? I bet they did.

We don't consider ourselves "foretellers", we just respect too much human life (American and Iraqi), and don't buy the reasons of your warmonger party because we know that after them there is only greed, the false and egotistic idea that we are better than anyone else, and a crazy desire to monopolize power in the world.

Posted by Frank42 at 09/29/2007 @ 10:54pm
Ari Fleischer not only had foreknowledge of 9/11, he watched the attack on the first tower LIVE, on closed circuit television, in the President's limousine - with the President, waiting outside the Florida elementary school, as confessed to by none other than George W. Bush himself.

Israel's Mossad carried out the operation, with Cheney at the controls.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=Sm73wOuPL60

http://youtube.com/watch?v=bDfdOwt2v3Y

Posted by plunger at 09/29/2007 @ 10:55pm
The first issue about being free is not to be occupied by a foreign power.

Posted by FRANK42 09/29/2007 @ 10:54pm

excellent.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/29/2007 @ 10:57pm
perhaps they meant prophets.

Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/28/2007 @ 10:52pm

They did, but I didn't.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 11:06pm
We don't consider ourselves "foretellers", we just respect too much human life (American and Iraqi), and don't buy the reasons of your warmonger party because we know that after them there is only greed, the false and egotistic idea that we are better than anyone else, and a crazy desire to monopolize power in the world.

Posted by FRANK42 09/29/2007 @ 10:54pm

Good stuff Frank. Some of the American colonists were actually pirates, soldiers from other countries who defected etc. What a band of thugs our colonial army was. They didn't even deserve the right to fire upon the pretty British uniforms let alone think they might win. They were nothing but a band of insurgents.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 11:27pm
bush and company lied. the evidence is obvious. apply common sense. they caused the death and suffering of millions.

millions of refugees have fled iraq since the invasion. millions... they are running out of money in neighboring countries, selling their daughters into prostitution...misery bringer, thy name is BUSH.

the millions who remain, except the kurds, live in a gigantic hellish slum that makes the most violent, gang infested inner city hell in the good ol' usa look like candyland...chutes and ladders...

open running sewage...dysentery in hundred degree weather...2 hours of power a day...a family outing turned into death cause you got too close to black water...people living in at least as much fear as the worst days of the evil dictator who was once our proxy and who did not attack us...

lies of bush and company = death and suffering of millions

lies of bushco = fiscal irresponsibility

lies of bushco = insult to our forefathers

war criminals...treason...evil

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/29/2007 @ 11:33pm
lies of bush and company = death and suffering of millions

lies of bushco = fiscal irresponsibility

lies of bushco = insult to our forefathers

war criminals...treason...evil

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/29/2007 @ 11:33pm

IBBLEBLIBBLE,

Haven't you been listening to the likes of Ponti, Happy, LRJ, Liverlips and the rest of the defense spending war hawks? They don't give a rip how many people suffer, die and have to live with what goes on in a country they are half way across the globe from.

People in Iraq are in the way of oil. To them, it's their oil and these greedy Iraqi people should just be damn happy to move over, let us build an oil infrastructure and pay a corrupt family or government some hush money like we did with Saudi Arabia.

But, these damn Iraqi people just don't know how to play ball. So we are going to have to beat some sense into them until they learn our game. If we have to kill them all, then so be it.

Am I missing anything Ponti, Happy and the rest of you who are so in favor of kicking ass and taking names?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/29/2007 @ 11:46pm
but he's made some huge NAFTA sized mistakes, too.

it's good to have many baskets for many eggs.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 10:42pm

Have you read the transcript or seen the NAFTA signing ceremony with the 6-7 presidents that were pushing it? Al did the intro. Seemed what they were all going for and what it's now morphed into, seems very much like a Katrina/N.O. aftermath, Iraq situation... don't forget the hsuB/cHeney admin's touched it, just like the Oval Office. As usua,l sometimes it's not the situation but how the 'individual' handles it. Or not.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/30/2007 @ 12:02am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/29/2007 @ 11:46pm |

i have an idea for a kool tv show...you know, one of those "reality" shows?

BAGHDAD SURVIVOR

plop 'em down well outside the green zone...last one alive gets one one day's worth of the money we spend in iraq, some serious haliburton/kbr stock, and a bronze bust of chimpy mcmushmouth...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 12:04am
but nah...i'd not wish that on my worst enemies...much less my evil friends...lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 12:05am
BAGHDAD SURVIVOR

plop 'em down well outside the green zone...last one alive gets one one day's worth of the money we spend in iraq, some serious haliburton/kbr stock, and a bronze bust of chimpy mcmushmouth...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 12:04am

Good idea. Donald Trump could host it.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:12am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 12:05am

no, but we could send war supporters to iraqi refugee camps so they could convince the iraqis how good the war has been for them.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 12:15am
I know this article appears on the nation, but if you haven't read it, you should. Maybe outside sources can help solve the problems over there, I know it is wishful thinking, but maybe there is a small chance.

No doubt shady deals may take place in these meetings, but if we can get our guys out of there, and the people of Iraq are cool with it, this mess might be behind us.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071015/hayden

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:18am
Good idea. Donald Trump could host it.

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/30/2007 @ 12:12am

Let me rephrase that. Good idea. Donald Trump could host it on location.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:23am
"Who are you to decide what is good or bad for the Iraqi people? They had an election, yes, directed and conditioned by the US. They deserve to create their nation to their will. They don't even have to be a democracy, if they wish not to. The first issue about being free is not to be occupied by a foreign power. Everyone has the right to be wrong once, they should learn from their experiences, they won't learn from imposed ideas. It is warmongers like you that are wrong all the time and don't have the courage to spell it out.

Some years ago, "terrorists" took over a dock and ship that was receiving merchandise from the power that occupied their country. These were patriots, and it was the American Revolution. Did England at some point consider them terrorists? I bet they did.

We don't consider ourselves "foretellers", we just respect too much human life (American and Iraqi), and don't buy the reasons of your warmonger party because we know that after them there is only greed, the false and egotistic idea that we are better than anyone else, and a crazy desire to monopolize power in the world."

Posted by FRANK42 09/29/2007 @ 10:54pm

Frank you are certainly original in parts but none the less a disciple of the orthodox anti-war and leftist's doctrines. My suggestion for your education assuming that you are not indoctrinated beyond recall is to do some non-ideological (just the facts) reading on Iraq from say the beginning of Saddam's rule. A little history of Iraq from 1919 (British involvement) also should help you see things in a less ideological context.

If your American insurgents of a former era, blew up, decapitated, tortured and displaced their fellow Americans (not talking about what by they did to the Brits but to just fellow peace loving Americans) that is news to me. So quit the self-deluding bullshit and try to think intelligently.

All of your points are debatable but I suggest you do a check on whether or not the US is an occupying force. My suggestion is that contention is at variance with the UN Security Resolution 1546. When I was studying geology as part of a mechanical engineering degree at Melbourne University the lecturer, Ian Plimer, was always fighting against the early age earth, creationists and in the end it cost him tens of thousands in legal fees contesting charges of defamation. I remember one of his booklets at that time was entitled "Telling Lies For God?" My question to you is; who are you telling lies for?

Go and check out that resolution and you might then feel like drafting an apology to the Iraqi people and perhaps your own president just for good measure.

The lesson here for you to learn is that no matter how many times you and others repeat this lie (and others) it doesn't make it (or them) true. (If in fact you check out the so-called Bush lie on WMD (Start by reading the NIE October 2002 and the 2004 Senate Select Committee on the pre-war intelligence) you will find that it is in fact your crowd that is doing the lying).

You evidently have an abysmal ignorance of what is going on in Iraq and are merely relying, for your posts, on the usual lies, half truths and out of context facts that you have gleaned from anti-war and leftist propaganda; quaintly stated however, in your own distinctly idiosyncratic way.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:24am
You evidently have an abysmal ignorance of what is going on in Iraq and are merely relying, for your posts, on the usual lies, half truths and out of context facts that you have gleaned from anti-war and leftist propaganda; quaintly stated however, in your own distinctly idiosyncratic way.

Posted by LRJONES4 09/30/2007 @ 12:24am

The same could be said of you. Do you really think that Blackwater Inc. is comprised of peaceloving upstanding Americans? You are the one who is deluding himself with "half truths and out of context facts that you have gleaned from pro-war and right-wing propaganda; quaintly stated however, in your own distinctly idiosyncratic way.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:36am
FZ, the ceremony transcript of all the pres' for NAFTA:

http://tinyurl.com/2uteac

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/30/2007 @ 12:37am
http://www.thenation.com/doc/20071015/hayden

Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/30/2007 @ 12:18am

thanks. i had missed that. i hope this is the first step towards peace, Insha'Allah.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 12:40am
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/30/2007 @ 12:37am

i knew you'd find that for me, so i just waited. i'll have a look.

thanks.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 12:43am
Posted by WOLFGANG1 09/30/2007 @ 12:36am

Well Wolfie I have an excuse I'm not an American but I can measure Frank's distinctive approach against his fellow countrymen.

I think the Blackwater incident showed the strength of the Maliki government and the commonsense of the State Department in taking the Iraqi complaint seriously and is an indication that the claim the Iraq government is a US puppet is another lie. That seems to be a reasonable conclusion to me. What do you think?

Saw an article by Robert D. Kaplan on "Outsourcing Conflict" and post this excerpt without comment so you can draw your own conclusions:

.." Mention private military contractors to many civilians, especially to liberals, and they'll think of red-state good old boys working for a firm like Halliburton--the Texas-based corporation formerly run by Vice President Dick Cheney--who appear to constitute a rogue, mercenary element favored by a Republican administration.

In fact, the former Halliburton subsidiary of Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) consummated its veritable marriage with the U.S. military during the Clinton administration, when the firm's logistical capabilities were indispensable to the Balkan interventions that many liberals supported. The KBR-designed military bases in Bosnia and Kosovo became templates for those in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/30/2007 @ 12:56am
http://tinyurl.com/2uteac

Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/30/2007 @ 12:37am

thanks.

i read the prezes speeches and that got me into researching just what is going on with the nafta deal. some say good, some say bad. i'll keep researching and give you a report sometime in the future.

time for bed. my eyes are going to explode if i read anymore numbers.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 01:29am
Posted by LRJONES4 09/30/2007 @ 12:56am

HAPPY posted the same thing.

i suggested he read this in turn.

and i suggest you read it, too.

The Great Iraq Swindle: How Bush Allowed an Army of For-Profit Contractors to Invade the U.S. Treasury [tinyurl.com]

please read it. i read the complete kaplan article. only fair.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 01:34am
please read it. i read the complete kaplan article. only fair.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 01:34am

Shivers Zoomer Rolling Stone is even more long winded than you. What's it with you lefties. Did a little bit of googling on Parsons and they seemed to have only one in about thirteen projects that meets the government's specifications. Its excuses are interesting but don't in any way exonerate the company for such shoddy workmanship.

I notice that the Democrat Waxman has stated how hard it is to get to the bottom of it and lay blame as he tries to sort out the reconstruction mess. The Kaplan article is more directed to "civilians" assisting in a war context, whereas this reconstruction effort was predicated on an adequate security situation. Parsons uses the lack of security and the difficulty of getting qualified inspectors on site as a reason for faulty work and time limits not being met. Parsons may have had a good reputation for work in America and other locations where there was no security issue but, whatever the cause, it was out of its depth in Iraq even if not deliberately defrauding the government.

Here's another interesting site that shows fun and games with their dollars (not ours Zoomer) were the order of the day.

http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/02/int11.htm

5.16pm Sunday here and have not been following this thread too closely, as we have had visitors, but try to respond to those who give cheek.

I suppose your game is to nail Bush on as many issues as possible to show that Iraq is a mess because of Bush. I'm not really interested in domestic American policies per se, even though I don't think there is much difference between the bulk of Dem and GOP pollies. Bush's removal of Saddam is the one thing I like about him. He is the sort of maddie the US needs every now and then to do something decent in terms of removing such blatant human rights violators. Clinton did a similar job in Bosnia and Kosovo, though he stuffed up badly in Rwanda.

A few years ago we had the sort of left-wingers that would make the worst socialists on this site look like junior Ws but as I've meditated on it I realise that that class has all but disappeared in Aus. Until there is a seismic shift all parties, right and supposedly left are, pro-free markets i.e. limited or no tariffs, pro-globalisation and radical environmentalists. That's a bit sad for blokes like you Zoomer. No where much to go. Have to re-invent yourself or blow up a cathedral or two

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/30/2007 @ 03:18am
After hearing, reading, or seeing yet another wrenching story about the Iraq Disaster, I wrote the following (my way of staying connected to sanity in the midst of insanity and of searching for some TRUTH in the midst of 'bidness as usual'). Before I paste it in, let me say: my Senators and Reps voted 'yes'; congressional leadership knows how to pull the strings on the legislative process to paste things in and cut things out; I heard my Senator talk on NPR about how he brought defense jobs to Michigan citizens. Because most pols are practical people who don't often take positions on principle, what can possibly explain why this continuing legislation passed? Tax dollars becoming war profits may be a reason. The powerful self-interested who fund campaigns may be another. Can't others see how sick, sick, sick this government is or am I insane?

What IF? The Bush Administration, in launching an invasion so apparently ill-conceived and bungled, is doing exactly what a self-interested, wealthy, and powerful group wanted it to: destabilize a nation with desired natural resources perfectly positioned in the middle of a region with resource reserves and transit routes as a pretense to establishing a long-term geopolitical, economic, and military presence there. Granted, the war is messy (hell), but overall the strategy is working. The largest US embassy compound has been built. The military bases for troops and materiel have been constructed. Billions of tax dollars have become large profits. Millions in weaponry is traded for the cooperation of surrounding regimes. The longer the Iraqi government falters, the longer the need to ‘stay-the-course'.

Don't be so sure that the end of the Bush regime and a Republican defeat in 2008 will be the beginning of a change of course. The fascist combine of militarists, imperialists, and multi-nationals pulls the strings, expertly puppeteering our weakened and withering democratic republic to their will.

Posted by Moderatus at 09/30/2007 @ 06:51am
by LRJONES

buenas noches señor jones

http://www.dawn.com/2007/02/02/int11.htm

thanks for the link from pakistan. i'll read it soon as i've got work to do.

as for classifying me as a "bloke like you", i suggest you read my rebuttle to PONTIFICUS found somewhere above (pg 7 or 8, i think).

i'd vote for the human party, if one were ever to exist.

i choose no ideology, just ideas.

i guess you could call me a "PLANETARIAN" first and foremost.

this is pretty good:

"You know, the basic problem is greed and poverty. The poor chop down trees because they need wood for fire, and big companies chop them down for profit, with corrupt officials getting their take while looking the other way, before the wood is exported or sold to local factories. No one thinks about the wildlife that is being left homeless or destroyed due to this desperation and this greed." -- steve irwin

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 09:12am
"...No where much to go. Have to re-invent yourself or blow up a cathedral or two"

Posted by LRJONES4 09/30/2007 @ 03:18am

Hmmm....

Sage advice from a more distant viewpoint?

Where do you got to church again?

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 09/30/2007 @ 11:15am
FZ,

As for NAFTA and Al-- Bill C. just reminded that when the repub congress swept in and got a hold of it, they defunded the best parts which he had just signed into law... NAFTA was actually there before Clinton/Gore. They tried to fix it with new rules. Repubs suck; big time.

Posted by hsuBfools at 09/30/2007 @ 11:34am
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/30/2007 @ 11:34am

Repubs suck; big time.

You sound like you're trying to convince yourself...or at least argue against that part of yourself amenable to reason.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 12:42pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 5:36pm

firstly, let me repeat what i have said many times: the U.S.A is a far different beast than the greedy people that determine its foreign and domestic policy. only a fool believes that representational government exists.

Nonsense. Unless, like President Ahminejad, you have redefined the meaning of your subject to mean something other than what the rest of society understands it to mean. 99 percent of Americans know that our votes determine who gets elected, which is the definition of 'representative' government in our republic. Beyond that, your statement is just pure intellectual contortionism and pseudo-intellectual linguistic fallacies of the Ahminejab, of the completely predictable left wing mold (e.g., people are brainwashed by corporations) designed to fit a pre-determined position. In general, although you like to paint yourself as some sort of free thinker, the fact is you are as ideologically strait-jacketed as the most doctrinaire leftist; more so, because you are completely unaware of just how manipulated you are.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 12:51pm
LRJONES...

as a result of a finger fart i just wiped out a gigantic refutation of everything you said...oh well.

all i can say is stick to fundyvangelist engineering. you make a terrible lawyer. the inversionist sophistry with which you support your evil heroes would make the demiurge and his wicked servants in our administration proud.

your evil heroes are discredited here and abroad. america does indeed love a winner...they no longer love your heroes...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 12:58pm
LRJones-If we were wrong about WMDs and Saddam then WMDs would have been found,but none were.The fact that Maliki complained about blackwater does not mean that he is strong.The weakest and most powerless people can and do complain about things.You state that we don't really know what is going on in Iraq,but then you fail to provide any facts that suggest that you do know what's going on.Your posts show that you are not looking at the big picture which is normal for war supporters.Nothing there means much as long as the people there hate each other to the degree that they do.Ever hear of the former Yugoslavia?

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/30/2007 @ 1:10pm
Ponti-The only people who have been manipulated are those of you who believe that Saddam was a threat and who continue to support this pointless war.

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/30/2007 @ 1:14pm
Your posts show that you are not looking at the big picture which is normal for war supporters.

Posted by I'M NOBODY 09/30/2007 @ 1:10pm

his posts show that argueing with him is like argueing with a right wing ideologue apologist for wickedness.

actually remove the word "like"...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 1:20pm
Look on the bright side fellas (and mask), this war is going to end someday. And it'll end because we either destroy them or we destroy us.

one or the other it's going to happen

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 1:22pm
and we don't seem real keen on destroying them. So that narrows things down quite a bit

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 1:22pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 09/30/2007 @ 1:14pm

Ponti-The only people who have been manipulated are those of you who believe that Saddam was a threat and who continue to support this pointless war.

Instead of trying to tell me WHAT to think, why don't you tell me WHY to think that? Weak minded people are amenable to repetitious statements which eventually sink in as unquestioned truth (see HSUBFOOLS above). I am not. I suggest you consider that as well.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 1:31pm
Instead of trying to tell me WHAT to think, why don't you tell me WHY to think that? Weak minded people are amenable to repetitious statements which eventually sink in as unquestioned truth (see HSUBFOOLS above). I am not. I suggest you consider that as well.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 1:31p

Well let's see, where should we start scootificus?

1. Saddam had no way to project his military power against the US.

2. Saddam had no WMD

3. Saddam had no workable WMD programs

4. Iraq was under crippling sanctions

5. Saddam's only connections to international terrorism was giving twenty five grand to the families of Palestinian families whose homes were just bulldozed by the Israeli army after their kid blew up most dramatically.

Now it is possible that saddam had a bad case of halitosis and maybe he let loose a few paint peelers. But those things are only a threat the people nearest to him.

And we generally don't need to go to war to put an end to a mans bad breath

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 1:48pm
case in point, look how long we've put up with yours scootificus

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 1:48pm
Ponti-I didn't try to tell you what to think.I corrected you on your statement that it is us who have been manipulated.You,in fact,are amenable to repetitious statements which is why you still support this war even though you can't defend your support using facts.You have been provided with facts that show that there is no point to being there.The people in Iraq hate each other and will continue to do so for a very long time to come and there is nothing we can do about that.Iraqis want an Islamic state and voted for one.State why you believe that our troops should be fighting to establish an Islamic state in Iraq.

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/30/2007 @ 1:52pm
Weak minded people are amenable to repetitious statements which eventually sink in as unquestioned truth

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 1:31pm |

truer words were never spoken. look at all the limbaugh listening juju zombies who have consistantly voted for their own destruction over the years. look at the frightened masses of people who listened to the constant droning lie machine of fox news and all the fox lites who thought iraq was a threat and hussein was al qaeda's buddy.

goebbels taught our randian overlords well.

my hope has been that relentlessly screaming the truth may in some way counter these evil, self serving lies, but the struggle is of titanic proportions.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 1:54pm
State why you believe that our troops should be fighting to establish an Islamic state in Iraq.

Posted by I'M NOBODY 09/30/2007 @ 1:52pm

my guess is the hamsters want the war to go on to keep the people from electing in the government of their choice.

it is the conservative way

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 1:56pm
for over 30 years median family income has been falling while the ceo class has been makin' a killin'....the latin americanization of the land of opportunity..

but rather than reverse this trend the overmen extended lines of credit to the schmuks to enable ever increasing spending. not only was schmuk nation extended this credit, they were encouraged to irresponsibly borrow...ah...debt peonage!

first they exported good manufacturing jobs overseas. they said, "dont worry! its all going to be service sector in the future! get re-educated! if everyone just keeps getting retrained until they die, everything will be all right.

but now they outsource the very jobs people wasted all that time money and effort to get retrained for! want a job programming? move to india!

and all the time bitching about those lazy slacker kids glommin' off ma, pa, and the gramps...

every year since 1970 the median income has fallen. yet the real gnp has gone up up up! what a great economy!

and now the housing market is crashing...why? how can it be? its SUCH A BIG MYSTERY, ISNT IT?

and we have a big expensive, unnecesary war now, to boot!

there has been a class war waged in our country for years, but it ain't the scmuks rising up against their economic overlords - its our randian overlords impoverishing us schmuks.

see the evil amongst you and crush it. until then what use is it to seek outside iniquity but to distract from those who are makin' a killin' - on you.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 2:11pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 2:11pm

I see you have been studying the destruction of the people, by the people...

but not so much for the people

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:15pm
Posted by I'M NOBODY 09/30/2007 @ 1:52pm

Ponti-I didn't try to tell you what to think.

Yes you did - you presented to me conclusions without presenting any bases for them, apparently with the expectation that I should accept them at face value. We have debated the purported bases for your conclusions often here, and I feel that the 'Bush lied' argument is anything but proven. In fact, I suspect that your reasoning is that 'I don't like Bush' ergo: everything Bush does is wrong. This is actually the most logical thesis for what is argued by the leftists here, as is often demonstrated when anti-Bush people cannot state a single thing that Bush has done that they agree with. It's simply not reasonable. There are plenty of politicians that I don't like, but I can almost always find several things about any politician that I agree with. My conclusion is that your thinking is much more pathological than mine. I'd be delighted if you can prove me wrong.

I corrected you on your statement that it is us who have been manipulated.

You didn't 'correct' anything; you just contradicted it. Contradiction is not the same as correction.

You,in fact,are amenable to repetitious statements which is why you still support this war even though you can't defend your support using facts.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

You have been provided with facts that show that there is no point to being there.

No, you have stated arguments against our being there, and there are many. But there are also many arguments FOR our being there. THOSE are arguments that you usually ignore.

The people in Iraq hate each other and will continue to do so for a very long time to come and there is nothing we can do about that.

I disagree.

Iraqis want an Islamic state and voted for one.

That's a problem, but it's not determinative of failure.

State why you believe that our troops should be fighting to establish an Islamic state in Iraq.

I don't believe that our troops should be fighting for that. But it's not a foregone conclusion, or even a likely one.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 2:18pm
Ponti-I didn't try to tell you what to think.

Yes you did

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:18pm

oh scootificus, and this is why we laugh at you so

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:20pm
what's really funny is that scootificus' frantic outrage that I'M NOBODY might be telling him what to think means that people can actually tell scootificus what to think.

which is what makes him, scootificus, such a wonderful mindless tool for the republican party

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:24pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 2:11pm

for over 30 years median family income has been falling while the ceo class has been makin' a killin'....the latin americanization of the land of opportunity..

Source please.

but rather than reverse this trend the overmen extended lines of credit to the schmuks to enable ever increasing spending. not only was schmuk nation extended this credit, they were encouraged to irresponsibly borrow...ah...debt peonage!

Your argument implies that people have no free will, and that they bear no responsibility for their actions. The corollary to this is that people need to be treated like slaves, or children.

first they exported good manufacturing jobs overseas. they said, "dont worry! its all going to be service sector in the future! get re-educated! if everyone just keeps getting retrained until they die, everything will be all right.

Your argument implies that there is a great 'they' that determines which jobs go and which jobs stay; it's the fundamental theory behind the discredited policy of trade protectionism. Discredited because most economists think it's a bad idea.

and all the time bitching about those lazy slacker kids glommin' off ma, pa, and the gramps...

Do you still live at home?

every year since 1970 the median income has fallen. yet the real gnp has gone up up up! what a great economy!

Source please.

and now the housing market is crashing...why? how can it be? its SUCH A BIG MYSTERY, ISNT IT?

Is this your 'we've all been manipulated for centuries by the evil corporations and the Jews theory' again?

there has been a class war waged in our country for years, but it ain't the scmuks rising up against their economic overlords - its our randian overlords impoverishing us schmuks.

What about the randian overlords that used to be schmucks? Are they in on it? And the randian overlords that are now schmucks?

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm
Your argument implies that people have no free will,

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm

actually Ibbles argument iimplies the instability of the economy in the average Americans life. People take on debt expecting to be able to pay it off.

but then their job flies off to commie china ... but it doesn't take their debt with it

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:33pm
sooner or later it all comes crashing down. just a question of time.

for most americans its already crashed.

stop buying crap. live without. do you need that new stereo? do you really need that new car? eat oodles of noodles...raise soe vegetables and chickens. cancel your cable service. live without.

strangle them. bring about the crash - the longer its delayed the worse it will be. buy only what you need and can afford.

boycott everything you can.

awaken from your consumerist sleep walk and see your true enemies for who they are - your very overlords...

before long it will be too late to resist non-violently and by that time your overlords will have collected enough desperate serfs willing to defend them for the few bones that remain to make your resistance futile.

before such passes, stand up, turn on your bullshit detectors, and get involved. it is not yet inevitable, although some mutually shared sacrifice and pain is...

lets give the system one more shot this election and elect soeone who is not a part of the problem, then NOT sit down confident everything gonna be all right. then if that doesnt work, lets play a big game of chicken with our oppressors...round one of the revolution.

liberty and justice or death.

sacrifice for a better future.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 2:34pm
Your argument implies that there is a great 'they' that determines which jobs go and which jobs stay

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm

The actual mechanism isn't a great they. It's the very real CEO's of American corporations selling those jobs to commie china.

and they, the ceo's, are deciding which jobs go and which jobs stay

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:36pm
Do you still live at home?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm

Won't you be happy until he's out on the street?

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:37pm
Ponti-You disagree about the Iraqis hating each other and will continue to do so?Hopefully,you're just kidding around.The Iraqis voted for Sharia law to be the law of the land.That makes them an Islamic state that will oppress Christians.In fact,many Christians have fled Iraq because of the law and others went into hiding or bought prayer rugs.Their constitution is quite similar to Iran's and they will look like Iran.

Posted by i'm nobody at 09/30/2007 @ 2:38pm
Is this your 'we've all been manipulated for centuries by the evil corporations and the Jews theory' again?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm

nah the housing crash has more to do with giving money to the wealthy in the form of tax cuts. If you actually believed your own bullshit about investors you'd know that they always go for the easy money.

the housing market was the easy money, and now that home prices have gone higher then even the gimmicks the bankers came up with to allow people to purchase home with, the investor money is drying up and the housing market is crashing

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:44pm
What about the randian overlords that used to be schmucks? Are they in on it? And the randian overlords that are now schmucks?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:26pm

do they still live at home?

Posted by Will C. at 09/30/2007 @ 2:45pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 12:51pm

more so, because you are completely unaware of just how manipulated you are.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 12:51pm

thanks! you've changed my life!

how naïve of me to think that once elected, the politician no longer REPRESENTS the voters, and instead, works hard for the big money donors to his/her campaign.

oh, how naïve i am!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 2:56pm
Source please.

page five of this very thread - from christian science moniter---

anticipated response? "thats a liberal rag."

Your argument implies that people have no free will, and that they bear no responsibility for their actions. The corollary to this is that people need to be treated like slaves, or children.

my argument implies that people are imperfect and easily manipulated by those who control information and use such to play upon their greed sloth lust vanity rage etc...

indeed - the scmuks should be ashamed, but indeed their overlords have eagerly done all in their power to enable the same...and profited immensely to the detriment of the nation as a whole...

Your argument implies that there is a great 'they' that determines which jobs go and which jobs stay; it's the fundamental theory behind the discredited policy of trade protectionism. Discredited because most economists think it's a bad idea.

looks to me like the results of the credited policies are discrediting themselves. economics, the squishy science that is vulnerable as hell to personal interest. and more economists disagree with the conventional wisdom touted by the randian think tanks like AEI and heritage than you credit.

Do you still live at home?

are you a corporate ceo?

Source please.

see above - again

Is this your 'we've all been manipulated for centuries by the evil corporations and the Jews theory' again?

search high and low, you lying, slandering, low life, morally vacous, shit. i have NEVER said nor believes such vile stupid garbage. typical of your tribe's lies when cornered by soeone with the balls to call you on your shit. fuck you you lying bastard...

What about the randian overlords that used to be schmucks? Are they in on it? And the randian overlords that are now schmucks?

what kind of idiotic question is that?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 2:59pm
oh, by the way, PONTIFICUS, the man's name is "Ahmadinejad".

hey, can you find iran on a map?

tell me about iranian art, history, languages, religions, foods, something........

no googling............

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:01pm
oh yeah, PONTIFICUS.

you've given me no response about the CIA giving Saddam his start and years of support.

well?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:02pm
as a result of a finger fart i just wiped out a gigantic refutation of everything you said...oh well.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 12:58pm

oooohhh, that is soooo frustrating.

my empathies!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:04pm
You state that we don't really know what is going on in Iraq,but then you fail to provide any facts that suggest that you do know what's going on

BY (s)he's nobody

a very common ailment.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:10pm
Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Please tell me what statements I repeat.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 2:18pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:15pm
stop buying crap. live without. do you need that new stereo? do you really need that new car? eat oodles of noodles...raise soe vegetables and chickens. cancel your cable service. live without.

buy only what you need and can afford.

liberty and justice or death.

sacrifice for a better future.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 2:34pm

yes, sir.

careful, LRJONES has already ridiculed me for living small.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:19pm
fuck you you lying bastard..

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 2:59pm

ya' know, of all the posters here, PONTIFICUS has to be the most infuriatingly naïve in his belief that everything he says is true.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:29pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 3:19pm

its a beautiful day. 80 degrees, blue sky, soft autumnal breeze after a typically furnace-like long sticky summer...

and things are beginning to change. a mighty struggle lies ahead for the common folk of both our nations and the iniquity of the few lays the foundation for the triumph of the many.

time indeed to take a walk in the park and dream of a day when life is better without expectation any reward more than the knowledge i tried in some small way.

the struggle is the meaning, the reward is intrinsic.

the struggle of the righteous is often lonely and reviled. the will to decency and justice is ridiculed by the vile.

ever has it been...ever shall it be, to some extent at least.

the host of the reviled and ridiculed grows every day. the revolution is already quietly underway.

time to enjoy a fresh breeze, warm sun and life.

god bless the usa.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 3:43pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 3:29pm

he's a clever obfuscating arguer. i respect his irritating skills...

but that was a vile baldfaced lie. i can tolerate his repeating other's lies but that little attack ad-hominum deserved worse than what it got...

in the old south such would have resulted in pistols at 10 paces. thank heaven such days are gone and we are seperated by anonymity and all the tubes of the internet...lol...

but i'm really not pissed...typical - exactly how those evil parrots operate...

attack the person, even if you have to baldfacedly lie about them. exactly like what rove did to mccain in 00.

but what do you expect from evil? to fight fair? to not lie?

indeed...

but find the raw nerve, push that button persistently enough, and they usually make a mistake.

like accuse me of being some kind of anti-semitic conspiracy nut. never ever went there. search high and low.

now - time to take my own advice and enjoy the weather...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 3:55pm
time to enjoy a fresh breeze, warm sun and life.

god bless the usa.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 3:43pm

yes sir. and god bless the rest of us, too!

the struggle for common folk stretches all the way around this globe.

it's a fine, fine day here as well.

and tomorrow will be better!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 3:56pm
and god bless the rest of us, too!

indeed. see ya.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 3:56pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 3:55pm

yep. doesn't matter what i say to the dude, he just comes back with insults, like comparing me to swine like ahmadinejad.

i don't know why i bother. i guess i just want to help. LOL

que disfrutes tu domingo.

btw have you read the transcript of the bush-aznar meeting pre-iraq. that's infuriating. i don't know why (yes i do) that isn't getting play in the media!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 4:04pm
PONTIFICUS has to be the most infuriatingly naïve in his belief that everything he says is true.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 3:29pm

Generally, only genuine LEADERS share that inner strength....until his firmly-held beliefs, are unequivocally proven to be false. Such people do NOT triangulate, never have a finger checking the wind, don't have their heads (or asses) buried in poll after poll and they don't need Mark Penn or Norman Hsu!

Posted by Happy at 09/30/2007 @ 4:23pm
Posted by HAPPY 09/30/2007 @ 4:23pm

hey haps, sorry about them titans, oh well.

lions won!

enjoy your HAPPYDAY!

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 4:33pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 3:55pm

but that was a vile baldfaced lie. i can tolerate his repeating other's lies but that little attack ad-hominum deserved worse than what it got...

A few days ago you provided me a summary of your version of the last two hundred years of history, which consisted of a) how a conspiracy of evil, profit-driven corporations have manipulated and exploited the poor, weak-minded masses for centuries and b) how families like the Rothschilds (a prominent French Jewish family) were a large part of this. When I asked you whether you thought that the history of the last two hundred years was just a corporate scam in conspiracy with the Jews, you avoided the question. Now, when we continue this conversation, I get the predictable explosion of profanity that inevitably occurs whenever one of you leftists are probed just a little too firmly. Interesting.

In an odd sort of way, your world view makes sense in that is self-consistent. But then again, so are other fake belief systems like Scientology and the Hare Krishna cult. I have first hand experience dealing with the members of these two cults, so I recognize the same characteristics in leftism.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 5:43pm
I mean, it's really no accident, IBBLE, that you find yourself on the same side as RESE, he of the World Jewish Conspiracy, and people like WILL C, firm believers of OJ's innocence, and the Bush LIHOP/MIHOP 9/11 conspiracy theorists. You're all touched by a little bit of insanity, just in different ways.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 5:58pm
Pontificus, there you go attacking Scientologists and Hare Krishnas - both of them wonderful peace loving cults who have not slaughtered ANYBODY. What you fail to mention is the biggest cult of all - JESUS, WHO BURNS PEOPLE ALIVE FOREVER.

Jesus: Mr and Mrs Bush-supporter, you both can get into heaven. You believed My lies, you're saved. But, your teenage son and daughter wouldn't worship Me, so I am going to burn them alive forever.

Christian mom and dad: OK Jesus, we love you, can we lick your boots oh please, God we love you, Oh Jesus!

What kind of cult is it, that has a God that burns your own family members alive forever, and you have to still worship that God - or He'll burn you alive forever too?

Pontificus, you call the Scientologists a cult, you call the Hare Krishnas a cult, but name the country they have gone and bombed innocent people in the name of their God.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:22pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 5:43pm

you are either a vile liar or you have me confused with another poster. find it and post it. it does not exist.

unless i am sleep posting, you are mistaken, sir.

john mccain has a black daughter, you know...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 6:22pm
Christ is the biggest Hitler of any cult leader ever to walk the face of the Earth.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:26pm
Hare Krishnas are nice, they give out blessed food that gets you into Heaven for eating it. They sing great harmonium songs that get you salvation if you even hear 1 verse.

Scientologists give out free personality tests, they sell great products and services for the money that you pay. They offer people a chance to get their head straight, and alot of them do.

Christians expect you to feel guilty all the time about everything - except if you kill someone who doesn't believe exactly what you believe. Christians try to scare people about burning alive forever in Hell to suckers to join, and scares the hell out of little kids who are forced to grow up in these families, wondering which of their friends is going to be burned alive forever for not worshipping Jesus, the One True Spritual Fuhrer.

Christianity

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:32pm
Hare Krishnas give out salvation easily, just eat their food and listen to their mantra one time and you're good.

Scientolgists offer the state of "Clear" for just under 1 million dollars, as I understand.

Jesus, taunts us all, claiming He died for our sins - but we still have to worship Him and believe all His lies. Anyone doesn't believe He's the Son of God has to be burned alive forever. Christianity doesn't even guarantee you won't be burned alive forever no matter how many good deeds you do. No matter how Christian you think you are, Jesus could still decide to burn you alive forever because you aren't in exactly the one true branch of Christianity. You could pay all your money to the Mormons then you find out it's only the Catholics who really get into Heaven.

What a ripoff - there you wasted your whole life on BullShit, and still didn't get into Heaven, Jesus ended up burning you and your loved ones alive forever in Hell anyway.

Hare Krishnas and Scientology are HONEST CULTS.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:37pm
Christians slaughter innocent people every day. Scientologists and Hare Krishnas don't.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:38pm
Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:26pm

Christ is no longer on Earth, CONS. And all the burning he does is metaphorical, or at least not applicable to the physical world. Scientology and Hare Krishna are relatively peaceful, alright, but IMHO they are both near-criminal enterprises relying on sophisticated mystical mind-control techniques. This is hardly a radical point of view.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:39pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 6:39pm

HEY, WHERE IS THE "JEW CONSPIRACY" POST YOU CLAIM I MADE?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 6:43pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 6:43pm

HEY, WHERE IS THE "JEW CONSPIRACY" POST YOU CLAIM I MADE?

I apologize, IBBLE, I think I may have been wrong. It was WOLFGANG1 who made the claim. I never saw you dispute it, though, maybe that's why I got you too confused.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:45pm
P, so what, Christian cult-building tactics of scaring little kids about being burned alive forever (and you are speaking falsely when you claim Christians make it clear to the little kids that they Jesus only "metaphorically" burns them alive forever, and you know you are speaking falsely, so there is no point in even talking to you - OF COURSE CHRISTIANS FUCCKING CLAIM YOU'LL BE BURNED ALIVE FOREVER. I never heard them say "metaphorically", and you insult my intelligence, claiming that Christianity is about that. You have zero credibility if you can't even concede a simple fact like that.

My point is, what, that scare tactic is a "less sophisticated" mystical mind control technique? What, Scientologists have more sophisticated mind control techniques? Just because a mind control technique isn't sophisticated, DOESNT MAKE IT OK.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:46pm
Interesting that CONSHAME is a big defender of Scientology and Hare Krishna. These are both cults designed to bilk their members of as much money as possible. It's always surprising to see how many nuts fall out of the tree when you shake it, though.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:47pm
Metaphorically, my ass. Tell that to Lazarus, so Jesus will let him dip his finger in some of that "metaphorical" water. P, confess your sin: you lied, you know what Christians are about, it isn't "metaphorical" at all. It's a cheap scare tactic.

What if Jesus told you He wanted to burn your wife alive forever, because she didn't believe exactly what she was supposed to? Would you still lick His unholy boots?

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:49pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 6:45pm | ignore this person

well said. despite all appearances i do have a life away from this virtual place...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 6:49pm
Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:46pm

Hey CS, I know I can't convince you of anything, but why don't you take a poll here and find out what percentage of people don't consider Scientology and Hare Krishna to be cults?

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:50pm
Christianity is a cult designed to bilk the consumer as well.

You donate all your money to the church, feel guilty all your life, and Jesus still burns you alive because you were in the wrong denomination.

Scientology and Hare Krishna are also not out slaughtering innocent people.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:50pm
Hey, P, lets take a poll find out how many people feel Christianity is an abomination?

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:51pm
Scientology and Hare Krishna use "sophisticated" mind control, so, what... telling little kids they'll go to Hell forever is what, a "brute" mind control tactic?

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:53pm
Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:49pm

What if Jesus told you He wanted to burn your wife alive forever, because she didn't believe exactly what she was supposed to? Would you still lick His unholy boots?

I'm not really into any religion, CS. I recognize that Christiantiy has a number of fundamental truths right, though. I really am not one of those who reads the Bible, but I do recognize that it contains a lot of good wisdom. I think people who take it literally are just a little carried away.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:54pm
Morality 101: don't burn defenseless sentient beings alive forever.

Posted by conshame at 09/30/2007 @ 6:54pm
Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:49pm |

as one who has badmouthed christianity in the past, must say to angry a blanket condemnation may turn off those christians outside the literalist rightwing camp...

but feel free to excercise free speech...lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 6:58pm
Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:53pm

Scientology and Hare Krishna use "sophisticated" mind control, so, what... telling little kids they'll go to Hell forever is what, a "brute" mind control tactic?

I could go on about this forever, CS, because I have first hand experience with people in both Scientology and Hare Krishna. Let's just say that Christianity doesn't purposely alienate and isolate people from their families and treat their converts like cash cows. Christianity has a message that makes sense for everyone, even if its practitioners are often flawed, and it doesn't involve the personal destructiveness and exploitation that goes along with real cults. Scientology is an out-and-out scam, Hare Krisna not much better.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 6:59pm
as a follower of non abrahamic religion (who dabbles with gnostic interpretation of abrahamic faiths) i must say that we shaved apes can screw up anything, no matter how good.

the following is a critical examination of many faiths, including some versions of my own. i think the guy rants a bit too much in the later chapters, misses some points, holds shaved apes to absurdly high standards and has trouble seperating his personal experiences from all "religion", but it is revealing, well researched and funny...

strippingthegurus [tinyurl.com]

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 7:15pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 6:59pm

sorry to change the subject but what do you say to this:

Saddam Key in Early CIA Plot

Friday, April 11, 2003

U.S. forces in Baghdad might now be searching high and low for Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, but in the past Saddam was seen by U.S. intelligence services as a bulwark of anti-communism and they used him as their instrument for more than 40 years, according to former U.S. intelligence diplomats and intelligence officials. United Press International has interviewed almost a dozen former U.S. diplomats, British scholars and former U.S. intelligence officials to piece together the following account. The CIA declined to comment on the report.

While many have thought that Saddam first became involved with U.S. intelligence agencies at the start of the September 1980 Iran-Iraq war, his first contacts with U.S. officials date back to 1959, when he was part of a CIA-authorized six-man squad tasked with assassinating then Iraqi Prime Minister Gen. Abd al-Karim Qasim.

In July 1958, Qasim had overthrown the Iraqi monarchy in what one former U.S. diplomat, who asked not to be identified, described as "a horrible orgy of bloodshed."

According to current and former U.S. officials, who spoke on condition of anonymity, Iraq was then regarded as a key buffer and strategic asset in the Cold War with the Soviet Union. For example, in the mid-1950s, Iraq was quick to join the anti-Soviet Baghdad Pact which was to defend the region and whose members included Turkey, Britain, Iran and Pakistan.

Little attention was paid to Qasim's bloody and conspiratorial regime until his sudden decision to withdraw from the pact in 1959, an act that "freaked everybody out" according to a former senior U.S. State Department official.

Washington watched in marked dismay as Qasim began to buy arms from the Soviet Union and put his own domestic communists into ministry positions of "real power," according to this official. The domestic instability of the country prompted CIA Director Allan Dulles to say publicly that Iraq was "the most dangerous spot in the world."

Close Ties With Baath Party

In the mid-1980s, Miles Copeland, a veteran CIA operative, told UPI the CIA had enjoyed "close ties" with Qasim's ruling Baath Party, just as it had close connections with the intelligence service of Egyptian leader Gamel Abd Nassar. In a recent public statement, Roger Morris, a former National Security Council staffer in the 1970s, confirmed this claim, saying that the CIA had chosen the authoritarian and anti-communist Baath Party "as its instrument."

According to another former senior State Department official, Saddam, while only in his early 20s, became a part of a U.S. plot to get rid of Qasim. According to this source, Saddam was installed in an apartment in Baghdad on al-Rashid Street directly opposite Qasim's office in Iraq's Ministry of Defense, to observe Qasim's movements.

Adel Darwish, Middle East expert and author of "Unholy Babylon," said the move was done "with full knowledge of the CIA," and that Saddam's CIA handler was an Iraqi dentist working for CIA and Egyptian intelligence. U.S. officials separately confirmed Darwish's account.

Darwish said that Saddam's paymaster was Capt. Abdel Maquid Farid, the assistant military attaché at the Egyptian Embassy who paid for the apartment from his own personal account. Three former senior U.S. officials have confirmed that this is accurate.

The assassination was set for Oct. 7, 1959, but it was completely botched. Accounts differ. One former CIA official said that the 22-year-old Saddam lost his nerve and began firing too soon, killing Qasim's driver and only wounding Qasim in the shoulder and arm. Darwish told UPI that one of the assassins had bullets that did not fit his gun and that another had a hand grenade that got stuck in the lining of his coat.

"It bordered on farce," a former senior U.S. intelligence official said. But Qasim, hiding on the floor of his car, escaped death, and Saddam, whose calf had been grazed by a fellow would-be assassin, escaped to Tikrit, thanks to CIA and Egyptian intelligence agents, several U.S. government officials said.

Saddam to Syria

Saddam then crossed into Syria and was transferred by Egyptian intelligence agents to Beirut, according to Darwish and former senior CIA officials. While Saddam was in Beirut, the CIA paid for Saddam's apartment and PUT HIM THROUGH A BRIEF TRAINING COURSE, former CIA officials said. The agency then helped him get to Cairo, they said.

One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

In Cairo, Saddam was installed in an apartment in the upper class neighborhood of Dukki and spent his time playing dominos in the Indiana Café, watched over by CIA and Egyptian intelligence operatives, according to Darwish and former U.S. intelligence officials.

One former senior U.S. government official said: "In Cairo, I often went to Groppie Café at Emad Eldine Pasha Street, which was very posh, very upper class. Saddam would not have fit in there. The Indiana was your basic dive."

But during this time Saddam was making frequent visits to the American Embassy where CIA specialists such as Miles Copeland and CIA station chief Jim Eichelberger were in residence and knew Saddam, former U.S. intelligence officials said.

Saddam's U.S. handlers even pushed Saddam to get his Egyptian handlers to raise his monthly allowance, a gesture not appreciated by Egyptian officials since they knew of Saddam's American connection, according to Darwish. His assertion was confirmed by former U.S. diplomat in Egypt at the time.

In February 1963 Qasim was killed in a Baath Party coup. Morris claimed recently that the CIA was behind the coup, which was sanctioned by President John F. Kennedy, but a former very senior CIA official strongly denied this.

"We were absolutely stunned. We had guys running around asking what the hell had happened," this official said.

Communists Gunned Down

But the agency quickly moved into action. Noting that the Baath Party was hunting down Iraq's communist, the CIA provided the submachine gun-toting Iraqi National Guardsmen with lists of suspected communists who were then jailed, interrogated, and summarily gunned down, according to former U.S. intelligence officials with intimate knowledge of the executions.

Many suspected communists were killed outright, these sources said. Darwish told UPI that the mass killings, presided over by Saddam, took place at Qasr al-Nehayat, literally, the Palace of the End.

A former senior U.S. State Department official told UPI: "We were frankly glad to be rid of them. You ask that they get a fair trial? You have to get kidding. This was serious business."

A former senior CIA official said: "It was a bit like the mysterious killings of Iran's communists just after Ayatollah Khomeini came to power in 1979. All 4,000 of his communists suddenly got killed."

British scholar Con Coughlin, author of "Saddam: King of Terror," quotes Jim Critchfield, then a senior Middle East agency official, as saying the killing of Qasim and the communists was regarded "as a great victory." A former long-time covert U.S. intelligence operative and friend of Critchfield said: "Jim was an old Middle East hand. He wasn't sorry to see the communists go at all. Hey, we were playing for keeps."

Saddam, in the meantime, became head of al-Jihaz a-Khas, the secret intelligence apparatus of the Baath Party.

Relationship Intensifies

The CIA/Defense Intelligence Agency relation with Saddam intensified after the start of the Iran-Iraq war in September of 1980. During the war, the CIA regularly sent a team to Saddam to deliver battlefield intelligence obtained from Saudi AWACS surveillance aircraft to aid the effectiveness of Iraq's armed forces, according to a former DIA official, part of a U.S. interagency intelligence group.

This former official said that he personally had signed off on a document that shared U.S. satellite intelligence with both Iraq and Iran in an attempt to produce a military stalemate. "When I signed it, I thought I was losing my mind," the former official told UPI.

A former CIA official said that Saddam had assigned a top team of three senior officers from the Estikhbarat, Iraq's military intelligence, to meet with the Americans.

According to Darwish, the CIA and DIA provided military assistance to Saddam's ferocious February 1988 assault on Iranian positions in the al-Fao peninsula by blinding Iranian radars for three days.

The Saddam-U.S. intelligence alliance of convenience came to an end at 2 a.m. Aug. 2, 1990, when 100,000 Iraqi troops, backed by 300 tanks, invaded its neighbor, Kuwait. America's one-time ally had become its bitterest enemy.

Copyright 2003 by United Press International.

http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2003/4/10/205859.shtml

well, Well, WELL?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:16pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 5:36pm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 5:39pm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 5:56pm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/29/2007 @ 7:50pm

well, Well, WELL?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!!?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:20pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 2:56pm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 3:01pm

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 3:02pm

well, Well, WELL?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:23pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 5:43pm

ALGBBQHEOBGHOPIBHQEJNBJQENQOGOBKNKG

instead of attack, attack, attack, why can't you SAY WHAT YOU BELIEVE?

Are you afraid?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:25pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 7:16pm

I say that is all very interesting but basically irrelevant. Our intelligence services deal with unsavory people all over the world, sometimes we have to choose bad over worse. I would say the CIA was fully justified in using any means at their disposal to outst Communists, who have a demonstrated track record of murdering millions of people. If some of the people they supported were less than Jeffersonian in their methods, and in later years turned out to be almost as bad, that's the breaks.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 7:31pm
Interesting. So now you blame America for creating Saddam in the first place?

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/29/2007 @ 09:57am

one down. keep going. and thank you.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:35pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 7:35pm

If you want to blame the US for something, blame us for not taking out Saddam during the first Gulf War. Then, you liberals were ALL FOR leaving him in place, and 'letting sanctions do their job.' Bush, as some kind of neo-liberal, bought in to that, and thus the greatest slaughters are on his (and your) hands. Lessons learned (by some).

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 7:40pm
I would think, FROSTY, that given that you blame the US for Saddam, that you would therefore consider it our responsiblity to depose him. Correct?

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 7:45pm
I would say the CIA was fully justified

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 7:31pm

but didn't you say a murderer was better than a murderer?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:46pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 7:46pm

but didn't you say a murderer was better than a murderer?

Saddam was just another thug at the time. Who knew he would turn out the way he did? On the other hand, we had the Communists. We KNEW the trouble they would cause.

By the way, the US deals with unsavory people every day. We support, for example, the UN, which places egregious human rights abusers in the position of policing human rights abuses around the world. By your logic, we are responsible for that, too, are we not? We send millions of tons of fuel oil to North Korea; are we responsible for Kim Il Sung, too? Reductio ad absurdum turns your argument to shreds.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 7:50pm
but please, what about the lack of canadian medical ingenuity?

and what about canadian cowardice?

and what about your incorrect assumptions regarding my beliefs regarding economics?

well?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:50pm
One former U.S. government official, who knew Saddam at the time, said that even then Saddam "was known as having no class. He was a thug -- a cutthroat."

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 7:50pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 7:52pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 7:50pm

but please, what about the lack of canadian medical ingenuity?

You cut and pasted a nice list, and I'm sure there are plenty of smart Canadians. I've known many of them, and they're all nice and intelligent people. But there's no disputing that the Canadian system relies on primarily US medical advances for use in its system, from MRI's to most of what you can name in terms of drugs. You guys have, basically, no R&D costs to your health care system.

and what about canadian cowardice?

I didn't say cowardice, I said your country doesn't pull its weight for its own self-defense. What percentage of your budget is for self-defense?

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 7:57pm
You guys have, basically, no R&D costs to your health care system.

Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 7:57pm

the majority of the cut'n'paste list (assembled in just a few minutes) comes from publicly funded universities.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 8:03pm
per capita defense expenditures (from qwiki and my calculator)

china $34

u.s. $1825

russia $227

iran $88

north korea $210

canada $511

heheh, looks like maybe you should be afraid of us

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 8:19pm
Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense. Buddha

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 8:23pm
Over 500 postings here! The Nation ROCKS!!

Posted by lewwelge at 09/30/2007 @ 8:25pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 8:23pm

whoa dude. that's got me thinking to deeply. i now i'm gonna read seuss.

i'm doooooooooooommmmmmmmmm'd.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 8:40pm
rrrrrrrr, frickin' homophones.

"too"

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 8:40pm
"Christ is the biggest Hitler of any cult leader ever to walk the face of the Earth.

Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:26pm "

While I am not a very good Christian I think I can say from your above post you have no clue who or what Christ is to billions and means to individuals.

"Hare Krishnas and Scientology are HONEST CULTS.

Posted by CONSHAME 09/30/2007 @ 6:37pm

True, they HONESTLY want your money...I still remember the little bells jiggling and robes flyng down an airport corridor chasing some guy who wanted the little book but didn't want to make a donation...

As far as Scientology, check out this web site...and then try to investigate their enterprise...they are more law suit happy than than CAIR or NAACP. http://www.truthaboutscientology.com/

Religion has nothing to do with Christ...which is why I am not religious.

I think you might need some religion other than the one you prctice here. I have always believed you are part of a cult after reading your posts this past year....you are one strange lefty.

Posted by john maasch at 09/30/2007 @ 9:09pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 09:12am

Seems to be a slight communication problem Zoomer as "bloke" is pretty neutral. Noticed your venture onto the Burma thread. My first thought was that you that are getting your fix through empathy. My fix would come through an Iraq style solution.

Logically your environmental empathy leads to gas chambers or other pruning hook solutions. The reality is that the earth's population will be about 9 billion in a very short time (about 6.8 billion now if my memory is OK) and billions of them would envy your materially "frugal" lifestyle.

Though many here and elsewhere complain about the greedy rich, in our first world economies, I've noticed the new poor live the lifestyle of the "rich" of a generation ago. Those on the poverty line have far more in terms of food, housing quality, health, transport, travel and entertainment whether at home or abroad than the middle class of a few years ago did.

It seems to me that those,who decry the rich do so out of envy. I guess the salutary lesson is that material riches don't buy happiness but try telling that to someone who is addicted to material wealth, whether they are rich or relatively poor.

So that very human addiction or mental disorder,which afflicts most of us, is also likely to be afflicting those in the third world who really do struggle. Then there are those yet to be born to swell the ranks of those who live in abject poverty and who are also likely to covet a lifestyle as materially deprived as you claim yours is.

Failing gas chamber, castration or even "partial chastity/fertility and poverty vow Canadian style" solutions, it needs to be asked why "our" poor live in relative material wealth. The answer, which to me seems irrefutable, is the enormous advances in every field of technology including efficient energy production, medicine and agriculture.

So if you want to hive off into the irrelevancies of saving the planet, and consequently deny the genuinely poor of the earth that which is readily available to alleviate their condition, that's OK but please don't expect plaudits from those of us who think there is a well proven and better way.

Posted by lrjones4 at 09/30/2007 @ 9:15pm
For FROSTY, regarding US vs Canadian defense expenditures:

From Statistics Canada, Canada's population in 2001 was 31,002,200. From the US Census Bureau, the US population in 2001 was 285,317,559. From the Canadian Forces, the defense budgets for the US and Canada in 2001 were USD$310.5 billion and USD$7.3 billion respectively. Doing the math, in 2001, Canada spent USD$235 per capita on defense, while the US spent USD$1,088 per capita.

Had Canada spent at the US rate of USD$1,088 per capita, their total defense budget would have been USD$33,730,393,600, or CDN$52,315,840,473. Projecting forward into 2002-3, instead of a CDN$8.7 billion surplus, Canada would have run a deficit of CDN$43.6 billion. Had the US spent at the Canadian rate of USD$235 per capita, their total defense budget would have been USD$67,049,626,365. Projecting forward into 2002, instead of a USD$159 billion deficit, the US would have run a surplus of USD$84.5 billion.

Per the Canadian Forces, the 2001 US defense budget was 2.9 percent of GDP, while Canada's was 1.1 percent of GDP.

Is Canada spending too little? I blogged in November about the Canadian Coast Guard running out of money to replace uniforms. The presently impassable Northwest Passage could become navigable within a dozen years, and it's not at all clear that Canada can defend its territorial claims there.

On the other hand, is the US spending too much? For $310 billion per year -- projected to rise to $379 billion this year -- what are we getting for our money? Are we secure as a nation? What anticipated threats exist that require such expenditures? Is our military designed to deal with the problems of today's world? How, for example, is our military might serving to resolve the crisis on the Korean peninsula?

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 9:20pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 8:40pm

how bout this?

That which I have realized through painful toil, how can I preach?

For those suffering from thirst and ignorance, this Dharma is not easy to comprehend.

It is contrary to the flow of this world; profound, extremely subtle, difficult to perceive and refined.

It will be impossible to be seen by those clinging to greed and covered with ignorance.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 9:28pm
Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/30/2007 @ 9:09pm

check out my link above. funny and informative, if a bit too cynical in my opinion.

the werner erhard chapter is especially strange.

l ron hubberd had some interesting assistants on his yacht...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/30/2007 @ 9:36pm
by LRJONES:

Logically your environmental empathy leads to gas chambers or other pruning hook solutions.

huh. education leads to lower birth rates.

and billions of them would envy your materially "frugal" lifestyle.

indeed they do.

than the middle class of a few years ago did.

a few decades may be better said. but how much of all this cheap stuff is "paid" for by the suffering of the residents of the countries where the stuff is made? i'd rather pay double.

It seems to me that those,who decry the rich do so out of envy.

not me. if someone is rich because they've worked very hard, congrats. but i'm not really interested. my happiness comes from my family and my music. if i had oodles of coin, i'd give most of it away.

a lifestyle as materially deprived as you claim yours is.

don't blame them. but i don't have a hummer and a 2,000 square metre house. i try to buy as little stuff as possible.

partial chastity

whoa dude, i "enjoy" my life very much.

the answer, which to me seems irrefutable, is the enormous advances in every field of technology including efficient energy production, medicine and agriculture.

oh yeah! 100 years ago, people died here when they were 50 and raw sewage flowed everywhere. but there are still many places where this is true today, while people here watch "SAW 17" in air-conditioned theatres and play ice-hockey in July.

irrelevancies of saving the planet, and consequently deny the genuinely poor of the earth that which is readily available to alleviate their condition

well, paying them a living wage to make our toys would be a tiny start. one thing is comfort, another is excess. if we shed our excesses, perhaps the bounty that we take from the earth could be better shared.

that's OK but please don't expect plaudits from those of us who think there is a well proven and better way

hey, if you can prove me wrong and help the world's poor, AND not destroy our only ecosystem (i.e. home), i will be very, very happy.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 9:44pm
It will be impossible to be seen by those clinging to greed and covered with ignorance.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/30/2007 @ 9:28pm

all right! there's hope for me, yet.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 9:45pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 9:20pm

well, mr. harper is spending a lot more on guns'n'stuff.

however, it would be better if canadian troops were here planting trees rather than fighting for a gas pipeline in afghanistan.

and now they're going to buy ¡tanks! from the netherlands. what the f#$k does canada need tanks for?

as for the u.s. -- yeah, it's way too much. and your numbers don't include iraq and Iraq and IRAQ (yep, it ain't gonna stop growing, and ¿what have you gained?)

just think of all that money spent on energy technology.

just think.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 9:52pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 9:52pm

Yep, that would be the standard answer. "Defense? We don't need your steenking DEFENSE, gringo! The world is a wonderful place. Just be nice, and nobody will bother you! Look at us, safe as houses! What do we need an army for?"

Either way, just a self-serving rationalization.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 10:41pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/30/2007 @ 10:41pm

it seems your DEFENCE has been turned into ATTACK.

their killing in your name PONTI. what are the benefits for you?

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 11:19pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 11:19pm

their killing in your name PONTI. what are the benefits for you?

You're evading the point, of course. You say your country doesn't need to spend anything substantial on national defense, and your soldiers would be better off planting trees. Indeed they would, with us to protect you. And of course, you're free to sit back and say you don't need our protection, because as far as you're concerned, the laws of human nature and nations have been repealed in Canada, at least during YOUR lifetime. This is the same drivel we hear from pacifists here in the States. It's foolish, of course, but this kind of foolishness is protected from any consequences, so you're free to believe in it.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 11:28pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 11:19pm

In his essay on Rudyard Kipling (1942), [George]Orwell wrote: "[Kipling] sees clearly that men can only be highly civilized while other men, inevitably less civilised, are there to guard and feed them." . . . And in his "Notes on Nationalism" (1945) he wrote: "Those who 'abjure' violence can only do so because others are committing violence on their behalf."

Indeed.

Posted by pontificus at 09/30/2007 @ 11:34pm
You say your country doesn't need to spend anything substantial on national defense, and your soldiers would be better off planting trees.

by ponti

a) i never said no defense. our defense budget is greater per capita than russia, china, iran, north korea as per this:

per capita defense expenditures (from qwiki and my calculator)

china $34

u.s. $1825

russia $227

iran $88

north korea $210

canada $511

that's a lot of money for a country of 30 million people

b) well no one has attacked canada. sure it would be better for them (and you) if they were planting trees.

you're free to sit back and say you don't need our protection,

i have said this before: a great part of canada's economic success is because of u.s. defense during the cold war. but that was a two-way street. are you familiar with NORAD?

but now i ask, protection from whom?

in the past, canadians have fought valiantly in many conflicts, and have provided peace-keepers for many more. my sister served three years in our military.

do you know of SOMME, VIMY, DIEPPE, NORMANDY, KOREA?

"Conceit, arrogance, and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. [...] Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot, consider themselves better, nobler, grander, more intelligent than the living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill, and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others." ~ Emma Goldman*

*no, i am not an anarchist. and no, i do not agree with ms. goldman's ideas. but this quote is excellent.

BTW please refrain from making assumptions about me based upon evidence that exists only in your mind.

Posted by frosty zoom at 09/30/2007 @ 11:52pm
ibblbibiblblblblblle:

Como no me he preocupado de nacer, no me preocupo de morir

Federico García Lorca

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 02:00am
hey, if you can prove me wrong and help the world's poor, AND not destroy our only ecosystem (i.e. home), i will be very, very happy.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/30/2007 @ 9:44pm

What I was hoping for Zoomer was a moments focus on whether empathy with the Myanmar people or empathy with the world's poor (which is probably inconsistent with your style of empathy with the environment) is worth much at all. An empathy, that gives one a sense of satisfaction (sort of duty done), without any practical suggestion as how to set things right, contrasted with an empathy that leads to formulating practical solutions.

I notice Ibbie is a fan of Buddhism and you appear to be a religious syncretist so have either of you considered the possibility that the history of Burma, now Myanmar, which is a country whose population is anywhere from about 40 to 60 million and is 89% Buddhist has been such a human rights mess, at least from the 19th century (Brit colonial rule), simply because it is a Buddhist country? Maybe a bit like you blokes, its failing has been all empathy with no practical solutions for humans to live together in peace?

To put it another way, why is it the so called "Christian nations" and to a lesser extent Islamic nations enjoy stable governance that produces greater human rights than this Buddhist country? I mean this is a country where Buddhism should be a shining beacon; an Asian "light on the hill" or a heaven on earth. I think if I were you I would think long and hard about this seeming contradiction because that philosophy has parallels with your own philosophy of life.

Posted by lrjones4 at 10/01/2007 @ 03:37am
Well done Ponti.

Posted by john maasch at 10/01/2007 @ 08:02am
Posted by LRJONES4 10/01/2007 @ 03:37am

i don't know why i'm answering this nonsense. but here goes:

hitler's germany was a christian nation.

pinochet's chile was a christian nation.

milosevic's serbia was a christian nation.

ida amin was a catholic turned muslim.

Argentina (1930-1932, 1943-1946, 1955-58, 1962-1963, 1966-1973, 1976-1983)

Bolivia (1964-1982)

Brazil (1930–1934, 1937–1945, 1964-1985)

Chile (1973-1990)

Colombia (1953-1957)

Cuba (1933-1940, 1952-1959)

Dominican Republic (1844-1978 with a few exceptions)

Ecuador (1963-1966, 1972-1979)

El Salvador (1931-1984)

Guatemala (1931-1944, 1954-1986)

Haiti (1957-1990, 1991-1994)

Honduras (1963-1971, 1972-1982)

Nicaragua (1936-1979)

Panama (1968-1989)

Paraguay (1940-1948, 1949-1989)

Peru (1948-1956, 1968-1980)

Suriname (1980-1988)

Uruguay (1973-1985)

Venezuela (1908-1935, 1952-1958)

all christian.

Greece (1967-1974)

Poland (1926-1939, 1981-1983)

Portugal (1926-1933)

Romania (1940-1944)

Spain (1923-1930, 1939-1975)

all christian.

mussolini, a christian.

*sigh*

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 08:24am
HEY FROSTYZOOM AND MASK,

I looked at some of Fridays posts and I see you are BOTH on JR vaunted IGNORE list, so I did some calculations:

An Irritation Angle of 45 degrees times an I Hate America factor of 37, all divided by the mass of Hillary's brain squared gives a "you're on ignore" factor of 2.5 persons per solar day. Now, there are roughly 30 or so regulars on these blogs, so with a "you're on ignore factor" of 2.5 minus a "you're off ignore" factor of only 1.8, I estimate JR will be communicating with absolutly no one at all on here by about the 3rd week of November.

Chip

Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/01/2007 @ 09:42am
Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/01/2007 @ 09:42am | ignore no one

looks like your next.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 10:14am
Its all OK as long as "Our childrens is learning"

Posted by leftofcenter at 10/01/2007 @ 10:20am
It'll be an honor, FROST

Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/01/2007 @ 10:43am
To put it another way, why is it the so called "Christian nations" and to a lesser extent Islamic nations enjoy stable governance that produces greater human rights than this Buddhist country? I mean this is a country where Buddhism should be a shining beacon; an Asian "light on the hill" or a heaven on earth. I think if I were you I would think long and hard about this seeming contradiction because that philosophy has parallels with your own philosophy of life.

Posted by LRJONES4 10/01/2007 @ 03:37am |

stick to the fundyvangelist engineering, croc...

i would argue that the christian west has advanced in polity and stability precisely because exclusionary "turn or burn" style interpretation of christian scripture, collected and "authorized" under the supervision of roman politicos well after the death/ascension of jesus, were gradually abandoned in the post reformation period.

the exclusionary nature of such doctrine led to the shedding of much blood, and i would argue that the success and progress of the christian west owes more to a transcending of that aspect of christianity and a more inclusionary (less exclusionary) interpretation of the same.

stability of islamic societies? well...turkey, i suppose...

the success of the west in terms of open, tolerant, freedom loving peoples is a result not of a rejection of christianity per se, but indeed of the rejection of certain exclusionary doctrines which are the result of the standardization of catholic christian belief in the late roman period, and which often enabled the worst of human spirit - dogatic, intolerant, paternalistic, forceful proselytizing exclusionism...as evinced by modern fundyvangelist cromwellians.

in the case of burma, it has suffered under foriegn domination as well as domestic grown tyranny for a very long time...if the current actions of the clergy there have shown anything, it is the potential for a clergy to indeed stand up and, christian or not, exibit some of the most christ-like selflessness and courage imaginable.

but in that you are neithr an historian nor a buddhist (experts at cause/effect analysis for over 2 thousand years, i understand your confusion.

rejoice! enlightenment awaits.

by the way, other than islam, whose growth is directly atributable to the large ethnic muslim minorities there residing, buddhism is fast growing in post religious europe, and not antithetical to any but the most literalist exclusionary strains of the religion of christ.

in fact if one examines the doctrines of christian gnosticism and its descendents like the brutally repressed cathars of southern france, one sees an undeniable influence of what mat very well be buddhism, or earlier vedantic ideas upon which buddhism rests, just as christianity depends upon earlier hebrew religious philosophy...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 11:34am
Posted by CHIP THORNTON 10/01/2007 @ 09:42am

me too. my question is this...

how many posters here are indeed actually his sock puppets?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 11:36am
More bad news from Iraq today. I hope and pray that setbacks like this will not deter staunch liberal magazines like the Nation, and Congressional Democrats like Harry Reid, from fighting for the defeat and humiliation that they feel America deserves. Be strong, oh lefties! Defeat is just over the horizon! There is still time to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory! Fight the good fight for 'strategic redeployment'!

Last letter from doomed Al Qaida chief: 'We are so desperate for your help' BAGHDAD -- The U.S. military is eliminating Al Qaida's chain of command in Iraq.

Officials said several leading aides to Al Qaida network chief Abu Ayoub Al Masri have been killed by the U.S.-led coalition. They said two out of the four foreign aides of Al Masri remain alive.

On Sept. 25, the U.S. military killed an Al Qaida chief deemed responsible for transporting foreign operatives to Iraq. The Al Qaida commander, identified as Abu Osama Al Tunisi, was killed in a U.S. air strike as he met his colleagues in Musayib, about 60 kilometers south of Baghdad.

Shortly before he died, Al Tunisi wrote a letter that warned of a threat to Al Qaida operations in Karkh. The lettter, found by the U.S. military, sought guidance from Al Qaida leaders amid coalition operations that hampered Al Tunisi's network.

"We are so desperate for your help," the letter read.

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 2:42pm
Does anyone here think the Air Force used cluster bombs on the poor misunderstood terrorist? Maybe we should get Jack Gregory to grill Rumsfeld again and demand to know why these barbaric and inhumane weapons are being used! Geez, I'll be they didn't even take the time to read him his rights either, or bother to consider his protections under the US Constitution! Investigate! We need a special prosecutor!

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 2:45pm
notice Ibbie is a fan of Buddhism

Posted by LRJONES4 10/01/2007 @ 03:37am

fan? sure, but "is a buddhist" is much more accurate description if the ibbster...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 3:02pm
of...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 3:02pm
gee...when is nichols going to post another obama slurring entry?

at least he dings gigantra too...

guess he's a denny man....

i gotta admit, i've been enjoying old "give 'em hell gravel" and his rabid anti queenie attacks...

great idea for a fox show..."when gravell attacks!"

bite...claw...rrrrrrrr.....

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 3:06pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 10/01/2007 @ 2:45pm

and now you defend cluster bombs. wow.

oh and the www.worldtribune.com/ also carried this gem from the link they proudly entitled "WHAT RUSH SAID"

to whit:

RUSH: "There's a newspaper out there called the World Tribune. I saw it on their website, and they make no bones about the fact that there's a story over the weekend that the weapons of mass destruction are routinely being found, evidence of them."

wow.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 3:17pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/01/2007 @ 3:17pm

and now you defend cluster bombs. wow.

Yeah, zoomer, here's a clue for you: in war, you try to kill people, and cluster bombs are pretty good for that. Perhaps you enlightened Canadians have come up with some sort of a 'kind' bomb, too, in addition to discovering the secret of perpetual peace?

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 3:22pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/01/2007 @ 3:17pm

RUSH: "There's a newspaper out there called the World Tribune. I saw it on their website, and they make no bones about the fact that there's a story over the weekend that the weapons of mass destruction are routinely being found, evidence of them."

Oh yeah, I forgot. You're one of those folks who only gets their facts from approved sources.

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 3:24pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 10/01/2007 @ 3:24pm

where u get yours from? just curious...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 3:27pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/01/2007 @ 3:17pm

found by none other than batty boy and the bigfoot squad...

nice...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 10/01/2007 @ 3:29pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 10/01/2007 @ 3:27pm

where u get yours from? just curious...

www.drudgereport.com ... just like many if not most news people.

Also www.foxnews.com

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 3:29pm
"A four-month examination by USA TODAY of how cluster bombs were used in the Iraq war found dozens of deaths that were unintended but predictable. Although U.S. forces sought to limit what they call "collateral damage" in the Iraq campaign, they defied international criticism and used nearly 10,800 cluster weapons; their British allies used almost 2,200.

The bomblets packed inside these weapons wiped out Iraqi troop formations and silenced Iraqi artillery. They also killed civilians. These unintentional deaths added to the hostility that has complicated the U.S. occupation. One anti-war group calculates that cluster weapons killed as many as 372 Iraqi civilians. The numbers are impossible to verify: Iraqi hospital records are incomplete, and many Iraqi families buried their dead without reporting their deaths."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2003-12-10-cluster-bomb-cover_x. htm

There is a significant "dud rate" of about 5%. In other words, many do not explode but, rather like landmines, litter the ground with the potential to explode years later. There are said to be thousands in Kosovo

http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/in_depth/world/2001/cluster_bomb /

Because cluster bombs disperse widely and are difficult to target precisely, they are especially dangerous when used near civilian areas. In addition, they are prone to failure: if the container opens at the wrong height, or the bomblets don't fuse properly, or their descent is broken by trees, or they land on soft ground - they may not detonate. With a high dud rate estimated to be 10 to 30 percent, unexploded cluster bombs lay on the ground becoming, in effect, super landmines, and can explode at the slightest touch. They have proven to be a serious, long-lasting threat, especially to civilians, but also to soldiers, peacekeepers and bomb clearance experts. Children, who are sometimes attracted to the bomblets' bright colors and interesting shapes, represent a high percentage of victims.

i suggest you go to this page and look at the exploded kid

http://www.itvs.org/bombies/bombs.html

On April 24, five Kosovar brothers and two cousins ranging in age from 3 to 14 were playing in a field outside Doganovic, Kosovo. They found a small yellow canister the size of a soda can. As two of the cousins went to tell adults, one of the brothers began to pry open the canister.

The explosion killed all the brothers and severely injured their two cousins.

That canister was a cluster bomb dropped by NATO forces. Much like land mines, unexploded cluster bombs pose enduring threats to innocent people.

http://www.csmonitor.com/durable/1999/06/09/p11s2.htm

YEP. LET'S BLOW UP SOME KIDS.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 4:31pm
"Through July, nearly 18 percent of the Army's recruits in this fiscal year were admitted after obtaining waivers for having committed misdemeanors or felonies, having certain medical conditions or having drug or alcohol problems. For all of fiscal 2006, 15 percent of recruits required waivers.

can we now put to rest the myth that the troops are the finest America has to offer." JR

"ROFLMAO!....JR attacks (rightfully) Limbaugh for calling soldiers "phoneys"...

then turns around and tries to paint them all as criminals and drug addicts! " Mask

I'm sorry, do you think you made a logical point, Mask? There is, I hope some room between "the best America has to offer" and "criminals and drug addicts", wouldn't you. Is there a reason you're deliberately distorting what he said, bozo?

Posted by brantl at 10/01/2007 @ 4:34pm
" Is there a reason you're deliberately distorting what he said, bozo?"

Posted by BRANTL 10/01/2007 @ 4:34pm

Uh...he's Mask?

Eric

Posted by Malcontent at 10/01/2007 @ 6:23pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 10/01/2007 @ 4:31pm

YEP. LET'S BLOW UP SOME KIDS.

Zoomer, your moral outrage would be admirable if it wasn't so uniformly selective. Like all liberals, you seem only capable of moral outrage against the US. It pretty much destroys your credibility.

And besides, just because cluster munitions killed some civilians, that doesn't mean they couldn't have been killed just as dead by conventional HE. Dud munitions are also not only a problem with cluster bombs, those kids could have been killed just as dead with any number of other UXO types. You're like one of those guys who knows absolutely squat about firearms railing on about the danger of 'semiautomatic assault weapons' as if there's practically any difference between those and any number of perfectly valid weapons. You're just making a difference out of nothing in order to gain some specious anti-war traction.

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 7:05pm
Here's an event where you won't see the likes of zoomer marching in the streets preening their moral outrage, demanding action. It's not on the ideological agenda, you see.

Burma: Thousands dead in massacre of the monks dumped in the jungle By MARCUS OSCARSSON - More by this author » Last updated at 15:04pm on 1st October 2007

Comments Comments (69) Thousands of protesters are dead and the bodies of hundreds of executed monks have been dumped in the jungle, a former intelligence officer for Burma's ruling junta has revealed.

The most senior official to defect so far, Hla Win, said: "Many more people have been killed in recent days than you've heard about. The bodies can be counted in several thousand."

Mr Win, who spoke out as a Swedish diplomat predicted that the revolt has failed, said he fled when he was ordered to take part in a massacre of holy men. He has now reached the border with Thailand.

Posted by pontificus at 10/01/2007 @ 7:30pm
Americans are fools. We did not invade Iraq; unbeknownst to Iraq at the time, Iraq invaded us. Their invasion came through the guise of Republicans and their understanding of the limitations of their countrymen. Republicans profit hand over fist from this occupation and we all sit by nodding approval and hiding under our desks.

Posted by unclereggie at 10/01/2007 @ 9:54pm
Posted by PONTIFICUS 10/01/2007 @ 7:05pm

wrong again, oh wrongith one

china, burma, kazakhstan, iran, congo, sudan, chad, somalia, syria, egypt, israel ...................................

but hey, i'm talking to americans.

btw cluster bombs are indefensible.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/01/2007 @ 11:33pm
In fact, the former Halliburton subsidiary of Kellogg, Brown and Root (KBR) consummated its veritable marriage with the U.S. military during the Clinton administration, when the firm's logistical capabilities were indispensable to the Balkan interventions that many liberals supported. The KBR-designed military bases in Bosnia and Kosovo became templates for those in Iraq and Afghanistan."

Posted by LRJONES4 09/30/2007 @ 12:56am

And your point is ....? I think our leaders in Washington are corrupt on both sides of the isle. I just think this particular administration happends to be the most corrupt adminsitration in the history of this country. The State Deparment and Condolezza Rice defending Blackwater's actions prove my point.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/02/2007 @ 08:51am
PONTIFICUS:

"It seems to demonstrate that periods of industrial activity in technical syntheses of principles, data, free energy and energy as "matter," find highest employment by the fear-amassed credits of warfare. Therefore the assumption approaches fact that war promotes the major technical advances of civilization... What has not been clear is that the potential of this emergency-born technology has always accrued to human's prewar individual initiatives taken in a humble but irrepressible progression of assumptions, measurements, deductions, and codifications of pure science. "(1947) Earth, Inc. (1973)

Buckminster Fuller

In this passage, Fuller begins to explain why technological progress seems to make great gains in war time and states his view that this is a reflection of advances mainly made in peacetime -- wars simply force nations to take notice of their advances in the pure science and then they apply those advances to the war effort. Later in the book Fuller will explain why he thinks war is not necessary to bring advances in the pure sciences into actual production. He uses this to advance the notion that humans can very comfortably live at a high standard of living by "doing more with less."

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/02/2007 @ 09:57am