Blackwater, Oil and the Colonial Enterprise

Blackwater USA's mercenary mission in Iraq is very much in the news this week, and rightly so. The private military contractor's war-for-profit program, which has been so brilliantly exposed by Jeremy Scahill, may finally get a measure of the official scrutiny it merits as the corporation scrambles to undo the revocation by the Iraqi government of its license to operate in that country. There will be official inquiries in Baghdad, and in Washington. The U.S. Congress might actually provide some of the oversight that is its responsibility. Perhaps, and this is a big "perhaps," Blackwater's "troops" could come home before the U.S. soldiers who have been forced to fight, and die, in defense of these international rent-a-cops.

But it is not the specific story of Blackwater that matters so much as the broader story of imperial excess that it illustrates.

If Blackwater, with an assist from the U.S. government, beats back the attempt by the Iraqis to regulate the firm's activities -- as now appears likely, considering Friday's report that the firm has resumed guarding U.S. State Department convoys in Baghdad -- we will have all the confirmation that is needed of the great truth of the U.S. occupation of Iraq: This is a colonial endeavor no different than that of the British Empire against America's founding generation revolted.

But even if Blackwater loses its fight to stay, even if the corporation is forced to shut down its multi-billion dollar, U.S. Treasury-funded operation in Iraq, the brief "accountability moment" may not be sufficient to open up the necessary debate about Iraq's colonial status. The danger, for Iraq and the United States, that honest assessment of the crisis will lose out to face-saving gestures designed to foster the fantasy of Iraqi independence.

It is not enough that Blackwater is shamed and perhaps sanctioned. A Blackwater exit from Iraq will mean little if its mercenary contracts are merely taken over by one or more of the 140 other U.S.-sanctioned private security firms operating in that country -- such as Vice President Dick Cheney's Halliburton.

Whatever the precise play out of this Blackwater moment may be, the likelihood is that the colonial enterprise will continue. That's because, in the absence of intense pressure from grassroots activists and the media, Congress is unlikely to go beyond a scratch at the surface of what is actually going on in Iraq.

The deeper discussion requires that a discussion about the substance that no less a figure than former Federal Reserve chairman Alan Greenspan describes as the reason for the invasion and occupation of this particular Middle Eastern land: oil

The Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. aptly observed that "colonialism was made for domination and for exploitation," and there is no substance that the Bush-Cheney administration is more interested in dominating and exploiting than oil.

Thus, while it is right to pay close attention to the emerging discussion about Blackwater's wicked work in Iraq, Americans would do well to pay an equal measure of attention to the still largely submerged discussion about an Iraqi oil deal that will pay huge benefits to the Hunt Oil Company, a Texas firm closely linked to the administration. How closely? When he was running Halliburton, Cheney invited Hunt Oil Company CEO Ray Hunt to serve on the firm's board of directors. Hunt, a "Bush Pioneer" fund raiser during the 2000 campaign recently donated the tidy sum of $35 million to George W.'s presidential library building fund.

The new "production sharing agreement" between Hunt Oil and the Kurdistan Regional Government puts one of the administration's favorite firms in a position to reap immeasurable profits while undermining essential efforts to assure that Iraq's oil revenues will be shared by all Iraqis. Hunt's deal upsets hopes that Iraq's mineral wealth might ultimately be a source of stability, replacing the promise of economic equity with the prospect of a black-gold rush that will only widen inequalities and heighten ethnic and regional resentments.

The Hunt deal is so sleazy -- and so at odds with the stated goals of the Iraqi government and the U.S. regarding shared oil revenues -- that even Bush acknowledges that U.S. embassy officials in Baghdad are deeply concerned. What Bush and Cheney won't mention is the fact that Iraq's oil minister, Hussain al-Shahristani, says the deal is illegal.

Unfortunately, as with the Blackwater imbroglio, however, there is no assurance that the stance of the Iraqi government is definitional with regard to what happens in Iraq. All indications are that what happens in Washington matters most. And that is why it is so very disturbing that, for the most part, members of Congress -- even members who say they do not want the United States to have a long-term presence in Iraq -- have been slow to start talking about Hunt's oil rigging.

That is why it is disturbing that, for the most part, members of Congress -- even members who say they do not want the United States to have a long-term presence in Iraq -- have been slow to start talking about Hunt's oil rigging.

One House member who has raised the alarm is Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich, who in his capacity as a key member of the House Committee on Oversight and Government Reform, has asked the committee's chairman, California Democrat Henry Waxman, to launch an investigation into the Hunt Oil deal.

"As I have said for five years, this war is about oil," argues Kucinich, who is mounting an anti-war bid for the Democratic presidential nomination, declared on the floor of the House this week. "The Bush Administration desires private control of Iraqi oil, but we have no right to force Iraq to give up control of their oil. We have no right to set preconditions to Iraq which lead Iraq to giving up control of their oil. The Constitution of Iraq designates that the oil of Iraq is the property for all Iraqi people."

With that in mind, Kucinich explains, "I am calling for a Congressional investigation to determine the role the Administration may have played in the Hunt-Kurdistan deal, the effect the deal will have on the oil revenue sharing plan and the attempt by the Administration to privatize Iraqi oil."

Waxman has been ahead of the curve on Blackwater, seeking testimony from the firm's chairman at hearings scheduled for early October.

But Waxman needs to expand his focus, and the way to do that is by heeding Kucinich's call for an investigation into the Hunt deal.

That inquiry should begin with two fundamental questions:

Who runs Iraq -- the Iraqis or their colonial overlords in Washington?

And, if the claim is that the Iraqis are in charge, then why is Ray Hunt about to start steering revenues from that country's immense oil wealth into the same Texas bank accounts that have so generously funded the campaigns of George Bush and Dick Cheney?

Comments (163)

1. oh yeah...on the right track here, little johnny nichols, whore to your own conciousness (we should all be such sluts...lol)...

   this might even have led to impeachment if it had been pursued a year ago...

   but i guess the body count had to reach a certain level first...

   american idol anyone?

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 2:59pm

2. or concience...

   sorry, the spelling retard strikes again!

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 3:00pm

3. and again

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 3:00pm

4. Oh, goodie.....more hearings and investigations....

   Looks like Congress has got enough `advance bookings' to last to at least year end......then, just one more year of `chewing up the clock' with what else, more hearings and investigations! I AM just so proud of the Dem Congress....

   Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 3:10pm

5. when we withdraw the troops, let's leave Blackwater behind. let them fight their own way out.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 09/21/2007 @ 3:12pm

6. Blackwater guards our Vips. let the Iraqi police guard them instead. after four years of training, by Rudy's protege, that should be a cakewalk for them.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 09/21/2007 @ 3:14pm

7. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/21/2007 @ 3:14pm

   jr...thats like asking them to swallow their own poison to prove it aint poison...lol

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 3:16pm

8. So an oil man with an inside track with the administration has placed his bet that when it all shakes out it will be best to have made a deal with the Kurds alone and not with the central government? Hmmm...perhaps what he is hearing from Bush isn't what Bush is telling us?

   Could this be?

   Posted by BlueSpark at 09/21/2007 @ 3:16pm

9. Blue, it's silly to make a deal with Charlie McCarthy. look for the one holding the strings.Maliki is the puppet. like Diem he can be put into the box at any time.

   Posted by johannesrolf at 09/21/2007 @ 3:18pm

10. As a DOI (Devout Oil Investor), I applaud Hunt Oil for having the balls to `Make a Deal' with the Kurds.....though I'm sure they included adjustments clauses for the potentiality of a set of Iraqi national laws!

    In the meantime, just knowing that the Kurds are about to EXPAND their exploitation of its own area's resources, may just give the Shiites and Sunnies some `Time is Money' incentives to get moving on some workable compromise on the oil laws.

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 3:18pm

11. Oh, goodie.....more hearings and investigations....

    Looks like Congress has got enough `advance bookings' to last to at least year end......then, just one more year of `chewing up the clock' with what else, more hearings and investigations! I AM just so proud of the Dem Congress....

    Well, obviously, one should determine the merit of investigations on a case-by-case basis. If you have a reason to suppose that investigating Blackwater or the Kurdish oil deal are not worth our time, go ahead and post it. Your post as is offers nothing worthwhile.

    Posted by BlueSpark at 09/21/2007 @ 3:20pm

12. Posted by ZERO 09/21/2007 @ 3:03pm

    i largely agree, but there is merit to getting the record straight.

    i hate to say it, but with incompetant compromised stoolies like what most of the dems are showing themselves to be...

    it may well come to something ugly in the near future...the return of the sla...

    whoopi!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 3:21pm

13. ZERO: ....the Congress is running out the clock on its 2007 activities,.....

    HAPPY: Looks like Congress has got enough `advance bookings' to last to at least year end...

    Attention, Congress: YOU have just been blasted, in STEREO, FROM THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT!

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 3:23pm

14. 'fraid Mr Nichols might be late again...

    I heard on NPR this morning that Condi has alread told al-Maliki that the State Department (whom Blackwater guards when they leave the Green Zone) is necessary and al-Maliki has already relented on kicking them out.

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 3:31pm

15. al-Maliki has already relented on kicking them out.

    Posted by MASK 09/21/2007 @ 3:31pm

    What a shock!

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 3:38pm

16. The war in Iraq was never about freeing the Iraqi people, but rather to further squash them to an inch of their very existence. They were the victims ripe for bigger predators to easily violate. Our occupation of Iraq is 500% more devastating to the civilian population of Iraq that it was to Vietnam by stats indicating this level of occupation. Random attacks of Iraqis, has been the standard in this equation: not the exception. History will view our generation of US citizenry as we do the German people during the holocaust.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 3:39pm

17. Happy, I've noticed you haven't mentioned your opinion on Blackwater yet, which is the subject of this article. I'm curious as to your opinion, or is it once again "if the president's for it-I'm for it"?

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 3:41pm

18. Or maybe it's merely a matter of profitablity...

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 3:44pm

19. Happy: At the end of the day, nobody respects craven cowardice and bullshit, and this Congress defines those characteristics well.

    Posted by ZERO 09/21/2007 @ 3:27pm

    As do wingnut apologist chickenhawk wankers like...

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 3:53pm

20. Posted by MATTMAN 09/21/2007 @ 3:38pm

    Not really. Actually if Blackwater was forced out, it would essentially END the State Department's involvement in Iraq, since we don't have enough troops to guard them. It might also end ANY reconstruction, as BW guards the Provincial Reconstruction Teams (PRTs) around the country.

    Which in toto might end the occupation...though I doubt it.

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 4:05pm

21. Happy: At the end of the day, nobody respects craven cowardice and bullshit, and this Congress defines those characteristics well.

    Posted by ZERO 09/21/2007 @ 3:27pm

    As do wingnut apologist chickenhawk wankers like...

    Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 3:53pm | ignore this person

    Awww, Skel, leave poor Happy alone. He gets so upset, you know, when he's asked why he doesn't have the balls or the common decency to put his own ass on the line for those things in which he claims to believe. I mean, it's so mean and nasty of those mean, vicious, nasty lefties to call those too cowardly to volunteer for a war/occupation that they support "chickenhawks". Even if they are, in fact, chickenhawks. Yeah, Happy and the rest of the the righties (you know who you all are) talking about the bullshit and craven cowardice of others, while honing those qualities and practices to a virtual art form themselves. Hysterically funny, while, simultaneously, strangely pathetic of them, wouldn't you say?

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/21/2007 @ 4:09pm

22. Posted by MASK 09/21/2007 @ 4:05pm

    So then Blackwater is the glue holding together our occupation?

    I wonder how wars, or occupations, went in the old days. You, know before mercenary armies, or the Black Hundreds, became such a crucial element to finding WMD's, liberating nations, spreading democracy, and installing strongmen.

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 4:21pm

23. I like JR's suggestion of having the Iraqi police protect the State Dept, or at least give them a different role so that the responsiblity of guarding the State Dept can be adopted by our own military.

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 4:25pm

24. Happy, I've noticed you haven't mentioned your opinion on Blackwater yet, which is the subject of this article. I'm curious as to your opinion, or is it once again "if the president's for it-I'm for it"?

    Posted by MATTMAN 09/21/2007 @ 3:41pm

    Most industries have contract employees! My wife is in IT and her company has Infosys' (from land of Hinus) employees all over the place. BP, the safety-challenged oil company, has been crucified for the refinery explosion here a couple of years back....yep, over a dozen contract employees got fried!

    Even if all convoy guards have been US soldiers all along, I guess you are of the opinion that our soldiers would NEVER have committed this or any prior (possible) trigger-HAPPY incidents....good for you....I take our soldiers (and Blackwater guys/gals) as human beings and like me, could make mistakes in perceived life-threatening situations. Guess it's just me!

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 4:29pm

25. Removing our ability to criticize Betrayus because he's in the military is like not being able to voice objections to torture at Abu Ghraib, gitmo or simply about our troops being in the Iraq civil war.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 4:32pm

26. Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 4:29pm

    The difference is accountability, had it been US soldiers involved in the alleged massacre(s). Blackwater answers to no-one in Iraq but their own chain of command and that's a big problem. Plus, they cost our taxpayers more for their services than our own armed forces. Plus, their actions aren't calculated into the death tolls on either side of the equation. Plus, they are war profiteers and it is in their interest ultimately to stretch this out as long as possible. I don't know that they are doing that, but it certainly would be good for business...

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 4:36pm

27. "Most industries have contract employees!"

    The US gov is not an industry! War is not an industry!

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 4:37pm

28. Posted by MATTMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:21pm

    Much simpler answer, MATT.

    We went into those wars with ENOUGH TROOPS. The basic figure being that we should have gone into Iraq with 500-650,000 to truly secure the country.

    AND to stop any potential insurgency. Know who wrote the Army Field Manual saying we needed to send in that many troops?

    General David Petreaus (whose theory was over-ridden by military genius Donald Rumsfeld).

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 4:42pm

29. If nothing happens to mercs no matter what they do to Iraqis, isn't then the opposite also true? Cannot the Iraqi gov just take out assassination contracts on the merc's with impunity and there are no repercussions to the Iraqi gov within the law as the mercs exist outside the law and thus Iraq is free to act to remedy their situation outside the law?

    I see a majorly big problem with this simple logic set as it relates to our troops....

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 4:48pm

30. General David Petreaus (whose theory was over-ridden by military genius Donald Rumsfeld).

    Posted by MASK 09/21/2007 @ 4:42pm

    I did..not...know that! Ed, did you know that?

    That's right. It was Rummy (and the neocons) with their 'stripped down, high tech' military strategy of leaving a soft footprint and blah, blah, blah, wasn't it? It'll be over in a week, they said! I didn't know it was Patraeus that Bush betrayed.

    Posted by MATTMAN at 09/21/2007 @ 4:49pm

31. Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/21/2007 @ 4:09pm

    I suppose that you are correct about not picking on Lackofdope Slap Happy.

    I shall endeavor to restrain myself in the future.

    There. I did it.

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 4:52pm

32. It depends on what Betrayus is getting for it. A bag of gold coin? Full retirement?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 4:53pm

33. I wonder how wars, or occupations, went in the old days. You, know before mercenary armies, or the Black Hundreds, became such a crucial element to finding WMD's, liberating nations, spreading democracy, and installing strongmen.

    Posted by MATTMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:21pm

    Not that it worked out for the Brits all that well, but you have heard of the Hessians, have you not?

    As long as there have been wars (and prostitutes, for that matter), I suspect that there have been mercenaries. Probably always will be. What's disgusting is that these scum are paid for by our tax dollars (like that Maasch, that's your tax money that you begrudge so dearly) going to pay for a "brute squad," in ther vernacular of The Princess Bride. And there is nothing that we can do about it.

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 4:56pm

34. I think JR had the best idea: pull the legitimate armed forces of the United States and leave Bilgewater to its own devices.

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 4:58pm

35. I didn't know it was Patraeus that Bush betrayed.

    Posted by MATTMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:49pm

    Not directly, but they did ignore (even to today) his theory on how to deal with an insurgency (as they did other military strategists who knew we'd need more troops to secure Iraq).

    What's odd is...Petreaus is ignoring HIMSELF. The Surge troops were not enough by his own standard. It SHOULD be 40 civilians get 1 trooper. Obviously 165,000 US troops is not sufficient for 26,780,000 Iraqis.

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 4:59pm

36. Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:52pm | ignore this person

    Excellent restraint. Of course, I just caught his comment alluding to "life-threatening situations", coming as it did from the safety of his home and keyboard. Damn, I'm losing restraint...

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/21/2007 @ 4:59pm

37. Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:52pm

    Skull & Bones,

    I've been busy raking in the dough and am having trouble keeping up here, JMUSO is already one of my `renditioned' ones, would you like to joing him? IF no answer, I'll take that as YES! I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

38. Happy: look at it this way - both the "volunteer" armed forces as well as the "private" Blackwater mercenaries are all paid to do combat and security in Iraq. Why aren't we taking the low cost route to providing soldiers and staying with the much less expensive Army boots?

    Posted by ZERO 09/21/2007 @ 5:15pm | ignore this person

    Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 4:52pm

    Skull & Bones,

    I've been busy raking in the dough and am having trouble keeping up here, JMUSO is already one of my `renditioned' ones, would you like to joing him? IF no answer, I'll take that as YES! I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

    Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm | ignore this person

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/21/2007 @ 5:25pm

39. So here's a question:

    If captured by The Enemy (that fabled strawman of Chimpy's devising) in the GWOT, should Bilgewater mercs be held as Enemy Combatants, held incommunicado, interrogated in stress positions, subjected to waterboarding and other forms of physical duress (i.e. torture) and deprived of habeus corpus rights?

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 5:29pm

40. Skull & Bones,

    I've been busy raking in the dough and am having trouble keeping up here, JMUSO is already one of my `renditioned' ones, would you like to joing him? IF no answer, I'll take that as YES! I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

    Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

    Do as you see fit.

    FWIW, I only have rese and plunger on ignore, for volumetric reasons only.

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 5:30pm

41. Why aren't we taking the low cost route to providing soldiers and staying with the much less expensive Army boots?

    Posted by ZERO 09/21/2007 @ 5:15pm

    I don't know know about you but I have been a contract employee on a number of occasions...some lasting just days and some lasting months. As pretty much a free spirit, I like contract work which meant no office politics...a good reason I'm OUT of your 9-to-5 for 10 years! That said.....

    Blackwater is expensive, no question! I've read those guys make close to $150~200k. But aside from the pay, I DO see providing security details as very different from the duties provided by our soldiers in Iraq. As an aside, our soldiers can call upon heavy air & firepower as needed while Blackwater don't have that luxury.

    I'd also think on average, security types in hazardous zones like Iraq, were top-notch ex-soldiers....many were Army Rangers or even Special Forces. The same rationale as with using our Secrete Service to `protect' AhmaDineInYourJeans when he visits NYC rather than the NY National Guards.

    On an operational level, using my own experience as a `hired gun', I had much more freedom to get jobs done...and often, I bypassed `standard op procedures' and got the work done faster and ultimately cheaper. Yes, I took certain shortcuts that `name' corporations wouldn't be able to pull off just because of their `name' and `deep-pocket' image. In Blackwater's case, I'm sure there are intricacies that maybe unsavory but necessary to ensure the safety of those they guard....I don't pretend to know nor want to speculate the details.

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 5:36pm

42. FWIW, I only have rese and plunger on ignore, for volumetric reasons only.

    Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 5:30pm | ignore this person

    well put.

    i've got frankenfece held at bay, but i usually take a look anyway to just to make sure he o.k.

    as for jones, i offer this:

    "hey, moe!"

    "why i otta........"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/21/2007 @ 5:36pm

43. he very o.k.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/21/2007 @ 5:37pm

44. Do as you see fit.

    Posted by SKELETONMAN 09/21/2007 @ 5:30pm

    Don't come across like the typical you-know-what, I have read it all before....used against every Righty on THIS AND EVERY OTHER BLOG. Those are the real trash talks...waste the times of people who actually value their time, that's ME!

    Posted by Happy at 09/21/2007 @ 5:41pm

45. Yeah ok, Iran is probably a lot better than which Saudi got to the WTC 9/11 site 1st and why. No surprise that Murdoch, the Saudi's and hsuB are all related via greed. Nor that Guiliani went for the money first before considering the 'symbolism'.

    "A Saudi prince who owns shares of the Fox News Channel claims he persuaded network chief Rupert Murdoch to change a screen banner during a broadcast that identified the recent unrest in France as "Muslim riots."

    "Within 30 minutes, the title was changed from Muslim riots to civil riots."

    ...

    Al-Walid visited the site of the World Trade Center one month after Sept. 11, 2001, and presented Giuliani with a $10 million donation to a relief fund, calling the terrorist attack "a tremendous crime."

    But in a written statement issued by his publicist during the visit, the prince declared:

    "At times like this one, we must address some of the issues that led to such a criminal attack. I believe the government of the United States of America should re-examine its policies in the Middle East and adopt a more balanced stance toward the Palestinian cause."

    An angered Giuliani returned the donation.

    A few days later, the prince blamed the mayor's decision on "Jewish pressures."

    ...

    As WorldNetDaily reported, the Senate Judiciary Committee held hearings in October in response to a yearlong study by a Washington human-rights group asserting the government of Saudi Arabia is disseminating propaganda through American mosques that teaches hatred of Jews and Christians and instructs Muslims that they are on a mission behind enemy lines in a land of unbelievers.

    In March, 15 senators, including Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y., responded to the report by the Center for Religious Freedom at Freedom House with a letter to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice demanding the Bush administration take stronger action against Riyadh."

    http://www.militantislammonitor.org/article/id/1386

    ----------------VS---------------

    http://www.bestirantravel.com/culture/wtc-vigil.html

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 6:09pm

46. I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

    Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

    Then leave.

    I hear the Freepers are looking for a few good mindless lunatics.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 09/21/2007 @ 6:11pm

47. ...should have gone into Iraq with 500-650,000 to truly secure the country.

    General David Petreaus (whose theory was over-ridden by military genius Donald Rumsfeld).

    Posted by MASK 09/21/2007 @ 4:42pm

    Now was it the Powell Doctrine before it was the Betrayus Doctrine?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 6:21pm

48. Strange how these two are related...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 6:22pm

49. Hunt is another bush style money grubbing dis-loyal puke.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 09/21/2007 @ 6:24pm

50. Birds of a feather and all that, you know.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 09/21/2007 @ 6:24pm

51. Yeah and Hunt was working on the oil deal the whole time hsuB/cHeney were telling us that it's an oil sharing agreement that's holding up us pulling out a majority of our troops... Another lie from the masters of disasters and lies, the hsuB/cHeney admin.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/21/2007 @ 6:27pm

52. Ahhh...looks like "V" just found a friend on TN blog-

    Cheney as the LaRouche camp shows was for privitization of the military. Knowing mercenaries would not create the Public Outcry against a draft, he Rumsfeld and Bush gave contracts to who they wished. ---Posted by RESE 09/21/2007 @ 7:45pm

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 7:50pm

53. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/21/2007 @ 6:21pm

    That WAS Petreaus' own strategy as laid out in the Army Field Manual on how to handle an insurgency. 1 soldier for every 40 civilians.

    Again, odd, he thinks he can "do it on the cheap" with only 20K extra Surgers.

    Posted by Mask at 09/21/2007 @ 7:51pm

54. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/21/2007 @ 6:03pm

    No, the point I was making is that there is little practical difference between Blackwater mercs and terrorists.

    You don't think one of those Moyocks wouldn't queue to chop the head off anyone they even might remotely think might be a 'terrorist?'

    That was the point I was making, not trying to be funny, just pointing out there as unofficial, non uniform wearing hardcases, they wield terror just as effectively as anyone we are there to allegedly fight against. They are our terrorists, that's all.

    Posted by skeletonman at 09/21/2007 @ 8:14pm

55. I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

    Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

    because you are a coward who comes to a lefty site and hides from most of them.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/21/2007 @ 8:57pm

56. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/21/2007 @ 6:13pm | ignore this person

    total bullshit. in germany and japan the war was over when the occupation began. no allied troops were targeted, and none were killed. germans did not turn on each other and there was no civil war. same in japan. you are a liar and a cheat, coming to us with your irrelevant history. shove it up your ass.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 09/21/2007 @ 10:21pm

57. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/21/2007 @ 10:21pm

    one of my buddies with whom i served in the army had served in germany. on one excercise an elderly ex-wehrmacht veteran set himself up on his roof with a vintage ww2 mg...thinking the soviets were coming...but i guess that doesnt count...they talked him down and got poor old guy some help...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/21/2007 @ 11:03pm

58. i hope this has occurred to someone.

    if not, here goes:

    if iraq is the perfect training ground for jihadists, isn't it also the perfect training ground for blackwater?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/21/2007 @ 11:21pm

59. Oh gush how I miss good old conservatives like General Eisenhower, who had an ethics code even at war, instead of these neo-cons that think they can buy and sell even at war.

    How come we can not see that Blackwater is just the same as the terrorists that we are fighting on the other side? Even war, has - or should have, i.e. Geneva Convention - its rules. Blackwater, as terrorists do, use violence without answering to anyone, without any moral code. They protect a convoy, if they kill 10 people here and another 10 over there, that is the company's problem, not the USA's problem. Can't we see that we, as a nation, are washing our hands commissioning them for some dirty jobs that may interface with the public? Why do we think we can always buy anything with money? Blackwater is one of the most strong reasons why the people over there don't trust us (and them we can't buy)...or what distinguishes a mercenary from a hit man in the streets?

    It will be interesting to see what the Government does, if it respects the "independence" of Irak. No doubt that as we speak, people from these companies are just founding another company, another name, but the same heads in the shadow.

    God really bless America, will we ever return to our moral values? Like when we entered 2nd World War on principles and with the highest moral brightness of having been attacked first and defending the real free world.

    Posted by Frank42 at 09/21/2007 @ 11:30pm

60. It will be interesting to see what the Government does, if it respects the "independence" of Irak. No doubt that as we speak, people from these companies are just founding another company, another name, but the same heads in the shadow.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/21/2007 @ 11:30pm

    redwater?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/21/2007 @ 11:57pm

61. Old black water, keep on rollin

    Mississippi moon, wont you keep on shinin on me

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 12:07am

62. Don't come across like the typical you-know-what, I have read it all before....used against every Righty on THIS AND EVERY OTHER BLOG. Those are the real trash talks...waste the times of people who actually value their time, that's ME!

    Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:41pm | ignore this person

    Huh?!?! At any rate, I was delighted to read earlier that poor Happy has me on his ignore list. Hardly a surprise - he does seem to resent the suggestion that he actually grow a set, get into the army and put his life on the line for his Dear Leader. Lacking the balls to do that, he can't be expected to give any kind of reason for his lack of courage in the military arena. So, Happy sees challenges as unwanted wastes of his time. There's a reason that righties are challenged by lots of us to put up. Their support of Bush has crippled this country's real defense. This war/occupation, along with all of its attendant atrocities, is their responsibility, their fault. Truth is, every one of them ought to be drafted and sent. The young men and women there need to be brought home, to provide real defense. These right wing clowns want imperial wars, yet they lack the courage and decency to put their own lives on the line. Their complete depravity is really astonishing. And Happy and his ilk remain the most abject of cowards. Just like their Dear Leader.

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/22/2007 @ 12:21am

63. This remains about leftist hatred of Bush, conservatives, and Christianity, and has very little to do with facts or history.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/21/2007 @ 6:13pm | ignore this person

    Well, that's pretty pathetic. Like most righties, LVL, you know little of facts or history, and your posts bear that out time and again. You've spent years hating the Clintons, Kennedys, Kerrys, Gores, and anyone who doesn't worship you and your kind. Yeah, that's right - worship you. You seem to think that you are the essence of Christianity. The truth is, if Jesus of Nazareth were to have reincarnated in this era, you'd be among those calling for his execution. As would a lot of organized Christianity. In the meantime, you can't reason your way out of a paper bag and facts are an annoyance to you. So instead, you whine that we awful lefties aren't playing nice. So what if you righties don't - that's different, right? You get to play by a far more lenient set of rules in your world view. Yeah, the denizens of the right spew their hate, then take offense because, unlike you and the rest of the righties here, those vicious, nasty lefties don't grovel at the feet of the booze- and drug-addled, sadistic sociopath that squats illegitimately at 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue. His presence there desecrates the place, and the office, daily. That's not hate, pal. But we get to be disgusted at these fascist thugs who have ruined OUR country for their own personal wealth, power and self-aggrandizement. We get to be disgusted. And furious. And if you've got a problem with that, I'd suggest to you that get the hell over yourself. Your side dragged this country down that path. Now you whine because others expose you for what you really are. And that's pathetic.

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/22/2007 @ 12:43am

64. Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/22/2007 @ 12:43am

    you sound upset.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 12:46am

65. i hope this has occurred to someone.

    if not, here goes:

    if iraq is the perfect training ground for jihadists, isn't it also the perfect training ground for blackwater?

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/21/2007 @ 11:21pm | ignore this person

    Yeah, FZ, that's a pretty scary scenario. Blackwater looks like Bush's own SS. Between that, Bush's destruction of the legitimate military and National Guard, the Halliburton-built detention facilities, the missing Iraq billions, the utterly fascist tendencies of this cabal that's hijacked the government. Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/22/2007 @ 12:48am

66. Who runs Iraq -- the Iraqis or their colonial overlords in Washington? - John Nichols

    My vote is for the Bush criminal family, the colonial overloads.

    The war is for oil on two levels.

    First the NeoNuts, in their delusional plan to dominate the world, want to control access to the ME oil as part of their strategic moves to put the rest of the world at their mercy(?)....under their authority. Pax Americana, you want oil, kowtow to the NeoNuts.

    Second, for the BIG FOUR OIL companies, they have the tactical support of 160,000 pairs of American military boots standing on top of the largest untapped reserve of oil in the world, Trillions of dollars worth some estimate. The Iraqi oil fields were divvied up early in 2000 at Darth Cheney's Energy Task Force meetings. Then with the help of the other NeoNuts, Cheney being the NeoNuttiest, all that was necessary was another "New Pearl Harbor" to kick off the plan for the oil.

    If ever there were confirmation that the war was for oil, here it is in Ronald Dumsfeld's (second highest NeoNuttiest) own words:

    "Don't quote me on this. Sometimes the truth is so precious, it must be accompanied by a bodyguard of lies." - Ronald Dumsfeld -Used Car Salesman

    Yes, JR, I know... Churchill

    "It just isn't. There are certain things like that, myths that are floating around. I'm glad you asked. This war has nothing to do with oil, literally nothing to do with oil." - Ronald Dumsfeld Secretary of War

    It's all about the oil. Follow the money. icf itmfa

    Posted by COProgressive at 09/22/2007 @ 12:52am

67. you sound upset.

    Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/22/2007 @ 12:46am | ignore this person

    To the point of having had it with a bunch of fascists and their fellow travelers who've taken the most respected nation on earth and turned it into a global pariah for a lot of the basest reasons - greed, lust for power, ego, hate, fear. The right wing death toll in Iraq is approaching a million innocent civilians. These depraved right-wingers talk about morality? They support a group of people who are utterly amoral and immoral, and they're going to lecture the rest of us on moral issues? Nearly a million dead and their blood lust is still unsatisfied. As long as it's not their blood, of course. What utter moral degeneracy.

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/22/2007 @ 12:58am

68. Yeah, FZ, that's a pretty scary scenario. Blackwater looks like Bush's own SS. Between that, Bush's destruction of the legitimate military and National Guard, the Halliburton-built detention facilities, the missing Iraq billions, the utterly fascist tendencies of this cabal that's hijacked the government. Makes one wonder, doesn't it?

    Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/22/2007 @ 12:48am |

    the scariest part is when they come home.

    check out these pics.

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/special/bwsign400x300.jpg

    http://www.icw-net.com/aa_SiteObjects/aa_coastalIMAGES/geo-SPECIFIC/Albe marle-Region-Pix/Currituck-County-Pix/Moyock-Pix/welcomesign.jpg

    http://cryptome.org/moy-photo-12w.jpg

    http://content.hamptonroads.com/story.cfm?story=125049&ran=114114&tref=p o

    "Suit against Blackwater over contractor deaths moves to arbitration

    Moyock, N.C.-based Blackwater hired Kenneth Starr to argue its case to the Supreme Court. AP FILE PHOTO

    By BILL SIZEMORE, The Virginian-Pilot © May 20, 2007

    Thanks to some high-stakes legal maneuvering, Blackwater USA may yet manage to avoid a public examination of the bloody event that catapulted the company to worldwide attention and changed the course of the Iraq war.

    After appealing unsuccessfully all the way to the Supreme Court, Blackwater now appears to have found another way to derail what promised to be a landmark lawsuit brought by the families of four security contractors killed in a convoy ambush in Fallujah, Iraq, in 2004.

    This week, on orders of a federal judge, the dispute is scheduled to be taken up out of court by a three-man panel of arbitrators.

    By steering the case into arbitration, Blackwater has shifted a legal showdown over issues of battlefield accountability and presidential authority into a non judicial arena where the proceedings occur behind closed doors and the outcome is confidential.

    One of the three arbitrators is William Webster, a Reagan-era director of the FBI and CIA with personal and business ties to several Blackwater lawyers.

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/media/content/pilotonline/2007/05/0510blac kwater500x325.jpg

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/media/content/pilotonline/2007/05/0520bwat er500x325.jpg

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/blackwaterempbig.jpg

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/news/2006/11nov/newheckler420x296.j pg

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/military/blackwaterbig.jpg

    http://media.hamptonroads.com/images/special/bwslavco440x275.jpg

    ah damn, i'm getting nervous. that's enough.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 01:07am

69. they could care less about governments or treaties, or the UN for that matter.

    Maybe you were trying to be funny but it failed.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/21/2007 @ 6:03pm | ignore this person

    I know you're talking about "the enemy", but surely you are aware of your administration's positions on the matters of "governments or treaties, or the UN for that matter". I mean, you do know of their utter disregard for all of the above, right? You're aware of torture and execution, right? At your administration's behest, right? Of course, you're aware...right?

    Maybe YOU were the one trying to be funny. But it failed. Badly.

    Posted by jmusolino at 09/22/2007 @ 01:08am

70. WELL, YOU KNOW WHAT THEY SAY: IF YOU'RE GOING TO VISIT BAGHDAD ON YOUR NEXT VACATION,

    DON'T DRINK THE WATER!

    Baghdad cholera case confirmed

    1 day ago

    The World Health Organisation confirmed the first case of cholera in Baghdad, raising fears the disease is spreading.

    A 25-year-old woman from western Baghdad was found to have cholera after she turned up at a hospital with a severe case of diarrhoea, said Dr Naeema al-Gasseer, the WHO's representative in Iraq.

    Cholera broke out in mid-August but had been limited to just the north of the country.

    Several suspected cases had been reported in Diyala province, north of Baghdad, but al-Gasseer said none of those had been confirmed.

    Al-Gasseer said some 100,000 tons of chlorine were being held up at Iraq's border with Jordan apparently because of fears the chemical could be used in explosives.

    She urged authorities to release it for use in decontaminating water supplies.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 01:20am

71. I STILL CONTEND THAT IT'S ***NOT*** ABOUT THE OIL...

    Or, at any rate, the oil is only a very secondary consideration, kind of a bribe if you will. I contend that it (where it = the U.S. occupation of Iraq and prospective bombings/invasions of the other members of Bush's so-called "Axis of Evil") is about making the Middle East safer (or safER, at any rate) for Israel. This fact is, of course, not "provable" but is supported by all kinds of suggestive circumstances, which I won't go into. So even "the oil" is a red herring of sorts (though not as red a herring as the WMDs or letting a thousand flowers of democracy blossom in Iraq, to be sure).

    Posted by w_m_bear at 09/22/2007 @ 02:27am

72. By MATTHEW LEE, Associated Press Writer 1 minute ago

    WASHINGTON - Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

    The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.

    there you go, luvvy. We know from past history that if the JD brings a case, they are guilty, guilty, guilty. Gonzo can do no wrong, you taught us that.

    Another thing you taught us is that non-uniformed "stateless" entities have no standing under the law, therefore mercenaries should be treated like any other non-uniformed "stateless" entity, like garbage. They get no trials, no lawyers, can be interrogated till near death and should have no recourse in US courts. That is your position. Now the shoe is in the other mouth and your bizarre theories of war have come home to roost.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 04:46am

73. Another one bites the dust, and another one bites the dust, take one down, pass it around, another repub bites the dust.

    Zero morality in the moral values party.

    By Carla K. Johnson Associated Press Saturday, September 22, 2007; Page A04

    JOLIET, Ill., Sept. 21 -- Rep. Jerry Weller (R-Ill.), facing questions about his ethics, announced Friday that he will not seek an eighth term.

    Weller is fighting a subpoena in a former colleague's bribery trial, and he faces criticism that he did not reveal to Congress the extent of his Nicaraguan land purchases. Weller spokesman Andy Fuller said the decision not to run was made in late spring or early summer and had nothing to do with the criticism.

    A Chicago Tribune investigation showed that Weller did not report several Nicaraguan land deals in congressional ethics statements, and that Weller reported in the United States higher purchase prices on other transactions than were reported in Nicaragua.

    Weller is among 13 congressmen who were recently served subpoenas to testify for the defense in a case against a contractor accused of bribing imprisoned former congressman Randy "Duke" Cunningham (R-Calif.).

    Seven other House Republicans have announced that they will step down at the end of this Congress's term.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 04:56am

74. Do the neo-cons have any defense for poor Presidente' Fujimori? Looks like he will get more justice than he meted out to his enemies.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 05:01am

75. This is from a Christian group, so it must be correct, we MUST follow their advice, or we will never be the mythical Christian State that RIO and Luvvy pine for so:

    By Kari Lydersen Washington Post Staff Writer Saturday, September 22, 2007; Page A11

    CHICAGO, Sept. 21 -- The money spent on one day of the Iraq war could buy homes for almost 6,500 families or health care for 423,529 children, or could outfit 1.27 million homes with renewable electricity, according to the American Friends Service Committee, which displayed those statistics on large banners in cities nationwide Thursday and Friday.

    The estimates made by the group, which opposes the conflict, include not only the immediate costs of war but also ongoing factors such as long-term health care for veterans, interest on debt and replacement of military hardware.

    "The wounded are coming home, and many of them have severe brain and spinal injuries, which will require round-the-clock care for the rest of their lives," said Michael McConnell, Great Lakes regional director of the AFSC, a peace group affiliated with the Quaker church.

    The $720 million figure breaks down into $280 million a day from Iraq war supplementary funding bills passed by Congress, plus $440 million daily in incurred, but unpaid, long-term costs.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 05:07am

76. Do the neo-cons have any defense for poor Presidente' Fujimori? Looks like he will get more justice than he meted out to his enemies.

    Posted by CRABWALK 09/22/2007 @ 05:01am

    thanks crab. good news.

    didn't believe it could be true!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 09:10am

77. Like when we entered 2nd World War on principles and with the highest moral brightness of having been attacked first and defending the real free world.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/21/2007 @ 11:30pm | ignore this person

    er, not exactly. the war in the pacific was about colonial possessions, with the US defending the colonial prerogatives of England and France and Holland.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 09:31am

78. Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/22/2007 @ 12:43am | ignore this person

    you're right about Liverty sending Jesus to the death chamber. Jesus himself said that whatever you do to the least, you do to me. Liverty too is one of the grrr, kill, kill club

    Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 09:47am

79. defending the real free world.

    hahahahaha, the Chinese, the Indians, the Indonesians,the Vietnamese, etc, none of these people were free either before or after the war. they had to fight for their freedom, in some instances, like Vietnam,against the US. when the Japanese threatened India, FDR asked Churchill to free the Indians, to no avail. there were Indian troops fighting on the side of the Japanese against their colonial masters.

    please spare us the American exceptionalism.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 10:19am

80. More on BLACKWATER wheeler-dealer activity.

    The company is suspected of black market sales of arms thar have gone to groups designated as terrorists (mainly in Kurdistan).

    This should furnish further stimulus for JOHN MULLAH MAASCH, POL POT PONTI, RIO WARREN JEFFS and AYATOLLAH LV'LIBERTI to loudly extoll Maximum Cheerleader Bush's uber-competent, cost-conscious and moraly upright conduct of his Vanity War.

    From ASSOCIATED PRESS: Updated: 10:57 p.m. ET Sept. 21, 2007

    BAGHDAD - Federal prosecutors are investigating whether employees of the private security firm Blackwater USA illegally smuggled into Iraq weapons that may have been sold on the black market and ended up in the hands of a U.S.-designated terrorist organization, officials said Friday.

    The U.S. Attorney's Office in Raleigh, N.C., is handling the investigation with help from Pentagon and State Department auditors, who have concluded there is enough evidence to file charges, the officials told The Associated Press. Blackwater is based in Moyock, N.C.

    The U.S. attorney for the eastern district of North Carolina, George Holding, and a spokeswoman for Blackwater did not return calls seeking comment Friday. Pentagon and State Department spokesmen declined to comment...

    Officials with knowledge of the case said it is active, although at an early stage. They spoke on condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the matter, which has heightened since 11 Iraqis were killed Sunday in a shooting involving Blackwater contractors protecting a U.S. diplomatic convoy in Baghdad.

    The officials could not say whether the investigation would result in indictments, how many Blackwater employees are involved or if the company itself, which has won hundreds of millions of dollars in government security contracts since the 2003 invasion of Iraq, is under scrutiny.

    In Saturday's editions, The News & Observer of Raleigh reported that two former Blackwater employees -- Kenneth Wayne Cashwell of Virginia Beach, Va., and William Ellsworth "Max" Grumiaux of Clemmons, N.C. -- are cooperating with federal investigators.

    Cashwell and Grumiaux pleaded guilty in early 2007 to possession of stolen firearms that had been shipped in interstate or foreign commerce, and aided and abetted another in doing so, according to court papers viewed by The Associated Press. In their plea agreements, which call for a maximum sentence of 10 years in prison and a $250,000 fine, the men agreed to testify in any future proceedings...

    The News & Observer, citing unidentified sources, reported that the probe was looking at whether Blackwater had shipped unlicensed automatic weapons and military goods to Iraq without a license...

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 10:35am

81. From...The Nation, congressional testimony:

    Colonel Thomas Hammes, the US military official once overseeing the creation of a new Iraqi military, has described driving around Iraq with Iraqis and encountering Blackwater operatives. "[They] were running me off the road. We were threatened and intimidated," Hammes said. But, he added, "they were doing their job, exactly what they were paid to do in the way they were paid to do it, and they were making enemies on every single pass out of town." Hammes concluded the contractors were " hurting our counterinsurgency effort."

    Brigadier General Karl Horst, deputy commander of the 3rd Infantry Division said of private security contractors, "These guys run loose in this country and do stupid stuff. There's no authority over them, so you can't come down on them hard when they escalate force.... They shoot people, and someone else has to deal with the aftermath. It happens all over the place." Horst tracked contractor conduct for a two month period in Baghdad and documented at least a dozen shootings of Iraqi civilians by contractors, resulting in six Iraqi deaths and the wounding of three others. That is just one General in one area of Iraq in just 60 days.

    "The Troops" said it. It must be true.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 11:17am

82. At least Blackwater is not running a adolescent prostitution ring like their counterparts, Dynacorp, did in Yugoslavia.

    But, the neo-cons will wag their little hamster feet and say "Shit happens when you party without a care in the world. Keep them profits rolling in".

    It's not really important how the war is going, whats important is that we are at war and profits on government contracts for that war are soaring. What more could one ask for?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 11:27am

83. "The Troops" said it. It must be true.

    Posted by CRABWALK 09/22/2007 @ 11:17am

    CRAB,

    You fail to follow the airtight logic of the New Rightwing Relatavism. It follows from this logic that the troops you cite are not really troops at all -- but programmed stooges of Bill Clinton and Ted Tunrer, nothing more.

    Let us further investigate how the rightwing blatherer strings thoughts together.

    For instance, AYATOLLAH LV'LIBERTI teaches us that all scientists endorse the notion of climate change because ... all scientists are socialists. No evidence is necessary for this revealed truth, saying it makes its so.

    So, when Alan Greenspan states as he did this week that climate chnage is a grave issue that and he is fully convinced that it is happening due to human acitvity?

    Well, it is clear that, ergo Alan Greenspan is a SOCIALIST!!!

    Whowouldathunkit? But the rightwing relativist can, shall we say, think outside the box (or unthink the unbox not there) and color outside the lines (indeed off the page altogether), thus enabling such sublime insights into the workings of the world ...

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 11:29am

84. Posted by JOHN_SHAFT 09/22/2007 @ 11:29am

    Pretty much sums it up.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 11:44am

85. Lets take another recent example:

    S-hrillaries new healthcare Plan, ALL will be REQUIRED to have PRIVATE insurance.

    What do the neo-cons call it: Socialized medicine.

    Reason: pavlovian response.

    (I hear a bell. Does anyone else hear a bell? I'm hungry for some regulation free markets, but not the ones in Iraq)

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 11:49am

86. CRAB,

    Yeah, just to take a case far down on the food chain where one may see the propaganda in a distinct but notably crude (undigested) form: The lividly retarded poster F-SHITZ recently went so far as to call the Clint' Plan ... Stalinism. In all caps to boot.

    No one previously was clever enough to scour the facts and realized epiphanically that Stalinism was about ... everyone having a private insurer.

    But now we know.

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 12:04pm

87. FREI,

    You mean that ... Alan's long career showed that he was more Leonoid Brevhnev than John Galt?

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 12:20pm

88. IBBLE waxing eloquently about his hatred for America.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/19/2007 @ 10:35pm

    from an old thread....

    man, no matter how true, if you mention detestable things our country has done in the past in an attempt to understand modern situations...you hate america.

    i like ll, but this sort of selective historical memory is exactly what gets us into black holes of baghdad and enables our randian demigodly overmen to get elected. this "never bring up the unflattering truth" mentality is typical of the non-uberwealthy fascist dupes that enable the marching off of cannon fodder to stupid, unnecesary wars, to lee greenwood warbling and the full regalia and pomp of mindless, unquestioning nationalism...

    i prefer that mellencamp song on the chevy commercial..."this is our country..." that gets me deep down like "god bless the usa" seems to get the america-always-right'ers.

    until we face honestly our past ugliness, all the wonderful things, which indeed outnumber the ugly...are cheapened by the cowardly hypocrisy...

    then its bullshit easy answers, like "they hate us for our freedoms".

    and perhaps there is soething to that. religious fundamentalists and fanatics, like our christian religious right, do indeed hate freedom when it leads folks down intellectual and spiritual paths other than their own. so the islamic fundamentalist terrorists, even nuttier and more violently intolerant than our own basackwards religious fanatics, probably do hate us for our freedoms...

    but the iranians also hate us because we helped destroy their deocracy in 53, imposed a brutal monarchical dictator over them, armed and supported his fascist followers for over two decades. in the name of freedom (and cheap, anti-commie oil), thereby laying the groundwork for the eventual rise of abominable shiite islamic theocracy...

    if i were iranian, even if i hatted my gov (especially if i hated my gov) i'd hate the land of freedom also...i'd even hate 'em for their freedom, which by their actions apparantly is their privilidge to keep at home, but disparage abroad...

    and since i, ibbleblibble, understand this, know this obscured tidbit of inconvenient truth, and dare mention it...

    i hate america...

    there's a few unflattering things i could say about my dear old mom, but would that mean i hate her?

    no - that means i see her as she is. how can one love anything they refuse to see as it really is, good, bad, beautiful, and ugly? they cant. they love a lie.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 12:26pm

89. Posted by FREIHEIT 09/22/2007 @ 12:04pm | ignore this person

    I am just tired of the same absurd arguments.

    not read Ayn Rand? that's usually gotten over with in senior year of high school.

    you do owe everyone an explanation of the nefarious Fed. just calling it a cartel, of which there are others like the oil industry, is not enough. you are capable of stringing together a few sentences. telling us how ignorant we are does nothing to explicate your views. and no I will not read the book.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 12:48pm

90. FREI,

    Most of what I know about the Fed comes from reading (the overtly keynesian) Wm Gredier's fairly massive SECRETS OF THE TEMPLE. The book is not all that current since it deals mainly with the Volcker period and his compromise with moneterism. It is a curious beast, the Fed, since its impact is vast but it is off the radar screen of most people's awareness in a way that does not apply to, say, the court system -- and this depsiote its palpable impact on the "real" economy one faces everyday.

    But, cannot say I have much patience with the libertarian purists who piont to the existence of a public library or a state-run post office as the genetic flaw in the ointment every time their unregulated schemes collapse into a bailout or permenanant recession. To immodestly quote myself in the process of barbacueing the hapless POL POT PONTI earlier on the other thread:

    Then again, it was self-proclaimed (cough) "liberatarians" like Milton Friedman and his Chicago boys who actively designed the 1970s Chilean economy that was implimented in the "liberatarian" style (by a terror state, at gun point, with a little torture in the stadium, disappearences here and there).

    Same "libertarian"-style intellectual submission to grotesque pap that, through mediums such as POL POT PONTI and MULLAH JOHN MASCH, today teaches us that the Department of Motor Vehicles under State auspices is a grisly torture chamber of ... of ... of, yes, torture-style paper cuts inflicted from viciously sharp paper documents! Stalinist queues!! Genocidal muzak while the customer waits on the phone lines!!!

    And so on, in the hysterically fevered imaginations of the deeply, hoplessly indoctrinated who tilt bathetically at reality at every turn ...

    Posted by JOHN_SHAFT 09/22/2007 @ 10:51am

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 12:48pm

91. Posted by FREIHEIT 09/22/2007 @ 12:42pm

    i too admire/like him, and have fond feelings for all those who post here from the other side...

    thanks, btw...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 12:57pm

92. hardcore randian objectivism does indeed impress me as sort of the obverse of hardcore marxism, and bears the same relationship to mainline capitalism as does marxism to socialism or social democracy.

    both marxism and objectivism attract atheists in search of all encompassing ultimate truths, who latch onto these revealed axioms as fanatically as any autoexploding muslim fanatic, and like any proselytizing, intolerant religion, must be spread by force if necesary, imposed on those too stupid to understand whats in their best interest.

    both belief systems start with some pretty solid, well thought out ideas, but then spiral off into questionable conjecture that their atheistic religious fanatic followers accept as revealed, obvious, canon truth. the mindset that buys into this is really no different from any religious fanatic except that the randian or marxists convinces him/herself that his/her belifs, based on (questionable, pseudo) scientificky methodology, is superior to the poor faith blinded dupes who do not agree with them.

    and both result in the suffering of millions...

    randian objectivism is based on nihilism, a great evil enabling beleif system used by nazis and fascists for a century to justify their will to godhood over their moronic superiors. it is antagonistic and sneering toward democracy and sees any act of charity and kindness that does not result in direct personal gain by the giver as stupid and weak. randian objectivism, tellingly, is the basis for the satanic bible. it does nothing more than enable self serving, delusional wickedness on the part of its followers, dehumanizing the vast majority of all us shaved apes while comforting those insecure bastards who find themselves in possesion of enough wealth to impose their wills on the schmuks, and justify immorality and evil.

    because they think they are the overmen, beyond good and evil, and we who oppose them are simply mediocrity imposing assholes who stand between them and their nightmarish fantasies of godhood.

    marxism, as insane and indeed wicked as it is, managed to control the polities of a huge chunk of the world. objectivism is doing no different...

    and the neocons are nothing more than smiling objectivist monsters.

    the fundyvangelist thing? sociopathic objectivists have no problem with hypocrisy if it results in power, and apparantly fundyvangelists are too stupid to see the truly satanic nature of their bedmates, the objectivist neocons...

    ah wicked demiurge...thou art indeed master of this world!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 1:49pm

93. moronic...inferiors...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 1:50pm

94. FREI: This translates to innovation and creativity that is so seriously lacking in Government run monopolies. Wouldn't you agree?

    Couple of quickies then I gotta' go: No, not really. In some industries and natural monopolies, "innovation" and "creativity" are likley much less important than competence and stability. I & C probably rank higher for the consumer items and technologies, although some of these thrive on (perhaps reified through promotion) forms of "innovation" as a means to set off a new buying cycle (designer fashion is probably the most obvious case).

    In other industries, govt need not have all the answers but can midwife innovation via grants to subsidize R&D. This routinely happens when it doles grant money out to labs at big research universities. And in turn, this generates a lotta new knowledge and applications, most notably in the sciences.

    Consider, by the way, how this could apply to stem cell investigation with its life-saving and even its manna-spinning possibilities ... where it not for the fact that some people are called upon to "witness" and to save zygotes at the university lab but, strangely, NOT so called to intervene at the fertility clinic slaughterhouse of unused semen and zygotes ...

    Posted by John_Shaft at 09/22/2007 @ 2:04pm

95. and the usa is the prie bastion of this ideology, much as the soviet union chapioned world marxism for decades. we just never had a violent bloody revolution...

    we had the republican revolution...

    because with a few exceptions like arlen specter and his good ole fashioned country clubber pubs, the objectivist takeover of the republican party was nearly total by the end of the clinton presidency.

    thank god, that contrary to their own bloated delusions of godlike intelligence...

    they are at least as stupid as the vast ajority they insecurely disparage...

    evil of this nature must be destroyed. let not your decency stay your hand at the crucial moment. the wicked depend on the righteous' decency, which they see as weakness and at which they chortle, to triumph. be not moved by notions of pity, such is your own death warrant. drive the dagger home, kill the monster, and lose no sleep over it.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 2:06pm

96. ideas are more powerful, potentially more dangerous, than all the nukes in the world. from the dawn of time, shaved apes have marched off to kill and die for that which does not exist in the material world...ideas...

    sometimes these ideas are indeed decent, sometimes they are abominable. sometimes decent ideas, when in the heads of the foolish, can bring about evil, and indeed the result of wicked ideology put into practice, is the opposition to such by the decent.

    but let not patriotic delusions blind you to the wickedness of your fellow countrymen. oppose them even more stridently, for the price of failure to oppose the is...

    sharing in the culpability of their perfidy...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 2:19pm

97. IBBLE, fine form today, keep it goin'.

    How about 'dem Buddhists in Burma? Good stuff.

    where is Chimpy on Burma? Where is Condi, fresh off her snubbing by The Infallible One? We know where the Most Favored Chinese guvt is, squarely behind the Burmese junta.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 2:38pm

98. Posted by CRABWALK 09/22/2007 @ 2:38pm |

    buddhists in burma suffer better than anyone...they are buddhists, after all...

    but there is hope for them...burma does have some oil...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 2:44pm

99. And if one plays a little "Where's Waldo", and peaks behind the Chinese guvt, one can spot Johnmaasch and luvsliberty, supporting the Burmese uniforms via their unconditional support of the Communist Chinese regime.

    Business is business after all.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 2:48pm

100. "Be nice to America, or we will bring democracy to YOUR country"

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 2:49pm

101. "but I've actually experienced some good service at the DMV."

     This is heresy!! I have been informed by the infallible, omniscient MAASCH that all DMV's are bottomless pits of beeyrocratic ineptitude, so it must be so. Regardless of your, and my, experience. His theory trumps our reality.

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 2:55pm

102. the terrifying process of being "liberated"...

     "liberty" - it aint exactly "freedom"...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 2:56pm

103. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/22/2007 @ 12:48pm

     i believe that copies of nietszchke (do correct my spelling...lol), were included in the equipment of ww1 german soldiers...beyond good and evil...i think...

     so ayn rand finds herself on the senior reading list of every american high school student...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 3:00pm

104. Posted by CRABWALK 09/22/2007 @ 2:38pm |

     heehee...thanks, by the way, but i think i just blew my ranting wad...and the s.carolina/lsu game is about to come on...

     steve spurrior - real demigod...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 3:05pm

105. Our kingdom is not of this world.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/22/2007 @ 3:09pm

     but this world is where the struggle occurs. and the struggle doesnt simply give it meaning...it is the meaning.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 3:23pm

106. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/22/2007 @ 3:32pm

     ah...gotcha...

     pray for my south carolina gamecocks, would ya? lsu is evil...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 3:40pm

107. hahaha!

     mike davis (who i taught in high school) scores on 1 yd run! lsu is peeing in their little yellow britches! go cocks! die goliath!

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 4:13pm

108. Go, Gamecocks! Go, Steve! Cockadoodle-dee!

     Posted by Happy at 09/22/2007 @ 4:16pm

109. damn...lsu is good...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 4:17pm

110. ow...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 4:31pm

111. weeping! gnashing of teeth!

     how long oh lord!? well, being a gamecock fan builds character...but long game to go...nobody said it would be easy...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 4:35pm

112. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/22/2007 @ 3:11pm

     How about if the agents working under contract to Iran? Or if the Taliban were working FOR the Afghanis? Or Carlos the Jackal working for Libya and Iraq?

     Blackwater and other mercenaries are basically operating as sovereign entities, they are not beholden to any laws, just one line in the code of military justice. One line that is easily ignored or poo pooed.

     Not to mention the exorbitant rates they are charging your kids. Oof!

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 5:05pm

113. damn...they ARE evil...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 5:05pm

114. grrr, no "if". Changed mind in mid stream.

     How about agents working under contract with Iran?

     I guess the good "troops" are just mistaken about the effects of mercs run amok.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/22/2007 @ 3:09pm

     You have your work cut out for you then. Many, many right wing Christians, including your very own RIO, believe in their heart of hearts that this is,was and should be a Christian Nation. Maybe you could start with Justice Ten Commandments, Rev Dobson (Phred hater)and the heads of the Air Force Academy.

     What if America Were a Christian Nation Again? By: D. James Kennedy is telling.

     Supreme Court Justice James Smith (from "Borat", of all places):

     "The bottom line is, we are a Christian nation now, we were a Christian nation in the beginning, and we'll gonna always be a Christian nation until the good Lord returns"

     "I do not believe in the separation of church and state, nor did our founders. " Falwell in a USA Today Chat, August 2, 2000

     "I want you just to let a wave of intolerance wash over you. I want you to let a wave of hatred wash over you. Yes, hate is good...We have a Biblical duty, we are called by God to conquer this country. We don't want equal time. We don't want pluralism."

     - Randall Terry (quote: Arizona Republic, July 1996)

     ...lotta work ahead of you...

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/22/2007 @ 5:23pm

115. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 09/22/2007 @ 3:06pm | ignore this person

     sorry.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 5:24pm

116. liberty, if this was a Tory talking point that you uncharacteristically DON'T support, I am certainly sorry. my mistake.

     America's presence in Iraq is a mixture of imperialism and colonialism. to secure the oil rights for multinationals, instead of the nation of Iraq and its people is colonialist. writing the country's law, as in immunity for mercs, is imperialist. trying to order the world according to our whims with military force is imperialistic.

     I have yet to read it, though I have heard the author speak, but the new Juan Cole book is a winner. the subject is Napoleon's invasion and occupation of Egypt. many pertinent parallels with our time.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 5:33pm

117. i believe that copies of nietszchke (do correct my spelling..

     pretty close, you have all the letters. reverse the s and the z and you're in the clear.

     I cannot imagine that anecdote however.the army was lead by fossils.

     Posted by johannesrolf at 09/22/2007 @ 5:36pm

118. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/22/2007 @ 5:36pm

     thats about as close as i've ever come...

     i think it might have been "thus spake zarathustra"

     or i am confused...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 5:43pm

119. Thirty years after its initial publication, 150,000 copies of the work were printed by the German government and issued as inspirational reading, along with the Bible, to the young soldiers during WWI

     thusspake [plato.stanford.edu]

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 6:17pm

120. of course 150,000 in an army of several million...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/22/2007 @ 6:20pm

121. sending Jesus to the death chamber......................

     Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/22/2007 @ 09:47am

     *sigh*

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 9:19pm

122. buddhists in burma suffer better than anyone...they are buddhists, after all...

     but there is hope for them...burma does have some oil...

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 2:44pm

     lucky them

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 9:19pm

123. the subject is Napoleon's invasion and occupation of Egypt. many pertinent parallels with our time.

     Posted by JOHANNESROLF 09/22/2007 @ 5:33pm

     actually it seems more like a continuation.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 9:23pm

124. If ignorance is bliss, I'd expect you to be happier about the subject.

     Posted by FREIHEIT 09/22/2007 @ 1:33pm

     ignorance is not bliss. it is the pacifier of fools

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 9:25pm

125. ya' know, occupation is kinda like marriage.

     it's the little things that drive you to the lawyers.

     Kamal said addressing Blackwater's alleged actions was also a matter of preserving Iraq's dignity and honor. Seated in his spacious office, he recalled an incident two months ago when Blackwater guards threw a water bottle at a traffic policeman. The officer was so furious that he submitted his resignation, but his superiors turned it down, Kamal said.

     "This is a flagrant violation of the law," Kamal said. "This guy is an officer with a rank of a brigadier general. He was standing in the street doing his job, regulating traffic. He represents the state and the law, and yet this happened."

     Kamal said addressing Blackwater's alleged actions was also a matter of preserving Iraq's dignity and honor. Seated in his spacious office, he recalled an incident two months ago when Blackwater guards threw a water bottle at a traffic policeman. The officer was so furious that he submitted his resignation, but his superiors turned it down, Kamal said.

     "This is a flagrant violation of the law," Kamal said. "This guy is an officer with a rank of a brigadier general. He was standing in the street doing his job, regulating traffic. He represents the state and the law, and yet this happened.--washington post" [tinyurl.com]

     or to the morgue.......................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2007 @ 11:33pm

126. black water stains oily desert with the red blood of innocents

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 09/23/2007 @ 12:33am

127. Posted by FREIHEIT 09/22/2007 @ 1:33pm

     Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/22/2007 @ 9:25pm

     nothing personal, just came out

     isn't an economic model based on the rejection of empirical data based on empirical (or is it purely subjective?) data that was rejected?

     and if the humans are so unpredictable as to prohibit control of the economy legislatively, how are they able to predict that unpredictibility?

     some things are predictable.

     Posted by PLEASE ANSWER FROSTY'S QUESTION 09/23/2007 @ 12:33am | ignore this person

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 12:57am

128. some things are predictable.

     Mises attempted to find the conceptual root of economics. Like other Austrian and classical economists, he rejected the use of observation, saying that human actors are too complex to be reduced to their component parts and too self-conscious not to have their behaviour affected by the very act of observation. Observation of human action, or extrapolation from historical data, would thus always be contaminated by overlooked factors in the way that the natural sciences would not be* (although in quantum mechanics observation of one property of a system causes uncontrollable changes in other properties**).

     *and yet, Posted by JOHANNESROLF seems quite able to predict your responses.

     and i imagine he can predict what i'm going to say about many things, too.

     **and despite that, i see no one abandoning the study of quantum mechanics

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 12:58am

129. **and despite that, i see no one abandoning the study of quantum mechanics

     Catallactics--bartering sure beats money!

     Praxeology--

     From praxeology Mises derived the idea that every conscious action is intended to improve a person's satisfaction. He noted that praxeology is not concerned with the individual's definition of end satisfaction, just the way he sought that satisfaction and that individuals will increase their satisfaction by removing sources of dissatisfaction or "uneasiness".

     unfortunately, this may lead to uncontrollable (unsustainable environmentally) growth, as dissatisfactions (hunger, thirst, shelter) are met and are replaced by a never ending list of satisfactions (SUV, gmo pork, golfing at night).

     like the skinny stray cat that adopts you and dies five years later of feline diabetes because she forgets how to feel full and eats herself to death.

     and that part is predictable.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 12:58am

130. and that part is predictable.

     i agree about credit, though

     if the fat cat dies without paying back the credit she bought her "whiskas" with, someone's been ripped off.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 12:58am

131. i agree about credit, though

     if the fat cat dies without paying back the credit she bought her "whiskas" with, someone's been ripped off.

     however, somebody beat Mises to this one along time ago:

     The Cow

     [2.275] Those who swallow down usury cannot arise except as one whom Shaitan has prostrated by (his) touch does rise. That is because they say, trading is only like usury; and Allah has allowed trading and forbidden usury. To whomsoever then the admonition has come from his Lord, then he desists, he shall have what has already passed, and his affair is in the hands of Allah; and whoever returns (to it)-- these arc the inmates of the fire; they shall abide in it.

     [2.276] Allah does not bless usury, and He causes charitable deeds to prosper***, and Allah does not love any ungrateful sinner.

     [2.278] O you who believe! Be careful of (your duty to) Allah and relinquish what remains (due) from usury, if you are believers.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:00am

132. *** and this is the crux of the biscuit. we must be nice.

     and i don't mind paying taxes to be nice.

     you want a military. great. send them to plant trees. i know you agree.

     and if the government wants to be nice through programs to help people with alzheimer's, i'm ready to pay,

     despite it's unpredictability and the inherent inefficiencies of human behaviour.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:00am

133. despite it's unpredictability and the inherent inefficiencies of human behaviour.

     but how can we follow an economic model for humans that rejects what it means to be human?

     if we just follow the flow of chaos, that is where we will go.

     some things just need to be regulated. do you want dow chemical moving in next door?

     i agree about credit though.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:01am

134. i agree about credit though.

     abolish the fed. and whatever the one in canada is called, too!

     how can money have value just because i say it does (or you believe it does)?

     how to turn $100 into $333 "abracadabra........ [en.wikipedia.org]

     and if the cat dies, who pays?

     but we still gotta keep the only house we'll ever have, nice 'n' clean

     FROSTYNOMICS

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:02am

135. oops

     how to turn $100 into $333 "abracadabra........ [en.wikipedia.org]

     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional_reserve_banking

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:06am

136. maybe THAT'S why they seem to have islam so much.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:07am

137. have.

     no no no.

     hate.

     rrrrr....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 01:07am

138. or,

     is it just forabout the oil, and the inherent power,

     that hydrocarbon power,

     that mezmorizes the greedy heart so convincingly?

     killing in the name of concentrated, smushed-up, carbon-laced, rotten plants from whatever-the-time-was million years ago.

     i'd rather walk.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 02:20am

139. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/23/2007 @ 12:58am

     data from qwiki

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 02:29am

140. damn, coulda save myself a boatload of time if i had read this earlier:

     randian objectivism is based on nihilism, a great evil enabling beleif system used by nazis and fascists for a century to justify their will to godhood over their moronic superiors. it is antagonistic and sneering toward democracy and sees any act of charity and kindness that does not result in direct personal gain by the giver as stupid and weak. randian objectivism, tellingly, is the basis for the satanic bible. it does nothing more than enable self serving, delusional wickedness on the part of its followers, dehumanizing the vast majority of all us shaved apes while comforting those insecure bastards who find themselves in possesion of enough wealth to impose their wills on the schmuks, and justify immorality and evil.

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 1:49pm

     a qwiki we a-go!

     "Objectivism holds:

     a) that there is a mind-independent reality;

     b) that individual persons are in contact with this reality through sensory perception;

     c) that human beings gain objective knowledge from perception by measurement and form valid concepts by measurement omission;

     that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or "rational self-interest";

     [whoa, now. frei, do you believe this? does anybody? don't they have parents?]

     d) that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual human rights, embodied in pure, consensual laissez-faire capitalism;

     but wait, we respect you. however, feel free to help yourself if you break both legs.

     hmmmm... a little better.

     still, i'd rather pay taxes to fund that alzheimer's clinic

     being nice is nice.

     this part's cool:

     e) and that the role of art in human life is to transform abstract knowledge, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form--a work of art--that one can comprehend and respond to with the whole of one's consciousness."

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 02:51am

141. marxism, as insane and indeed wicked as it is, managed to control the polities of a huge chunk of the world. objectivism is doing no different...

     and the neocons are nothing more than smiling objectivist monsters.

     the fundyvangelist thing? sociopathic objectivists have no problem with hypocrisy if it results in power, and apparantly fundyvangelists are too stupid to see the truly satanic nature of their bedmates, the objectivist neocons...

     ah wicked demiurge...thou art indeed master of this world!

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 1:49pm

     to whit:

     In Interventionism, An Economic Analysis (1940), Ludwig von Mises wrote:

     "The usual terminology of political language is stupid. What is 'left' and what is 'right'? Why should Hitler be 'right' and Stalin, his temporary friend, be 'left'? Who is 'reactionary' and who is 'progressive'?

     [attn: HRC]

     Reaction against an unwise policy is not to be condemned.

     [no way!]

     And progress towards chaos is not to be commended.

     [no way!]

     Nothing should find acceptance just because it is new, radical, and fashionable.

     [prudent]

     'Orthodoxy' is not an evil if the doctrine on which the 'orthodox' stand is sound.

     ['course not]

     Who is anti-labor, those who want to lower labor to the Russian level, or those who want for labor the capitalistic standard of the United States?

     [the CANADIAN dollar is at par, for chrissakes. something just ain't working right]

     Who is 'nationalist,' those who want to bring their nation under the heel of the Nazis,

     [nobody, i hope]

     or those who want to preserve its independence?"

     [yeah!]

     i guess some things have changed since 1940

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 03:09am

142. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 2:06pm

     EVil of this nature must be destroyed.

     let not your decency stay your HAND at the crucial moment.

     the wicked depend on the righteous' decency,

     which they see as Weakness And At Which they chortle,

     to triUMPH.

     BE not moved by notions of pity,

     such is your own death warrant..................................

     drIVE THE DAGger home,

     kill the monster,

     and lose no sleep over it.

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 2:06pm

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 03:19am

143. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 09/22/2007 @ 2:06pm

     maybe we could try boycotting gas, first.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2007 @ 03:21am

144. I heard on NPR a few days ago that there are as many mercs and contractors as there are US troops and yet the gov states that 1001 have died and do not list casualties and or injuries. One could extrapulate +/- 10,000. Add those two figures to the numbers below. (http://www.icasualties.org/oif/Contractors.aspx)

     US troops in Iraq wounded by state data based on information released by the DoD. This data is updated monthly

     State _______Wounded__Deaths__Total

     ALABAMA _____465 _____63 _____528

     ALASKA _____103 _____15 _____118

     SAMOA _____37 _____6 _____43

     ARIZONA _____620 _____88 _____708

     ARKANSAS _____423 _____52 _____475

     CALIFORNIA _____2919 _____404 _____3323

     COLORADO _____457 _____52 _____509

     CONNECTICUT _____222 _____28 _____250

     DELAWARE _____43 _____13 _____56

     D, C. __________20 _____3 _____23

     FLORIDA _____1264 _____157 _____1421

     GEORGIA _____813 _____116 _____929

     GUAM _____21 _____6 _____27

     HAWAII _____120 _____20 _____140

     IDAHO _____260 _____29 _____289

     ILLINOIS _____1034 _____135 _____1169

     INDIANA _____587 _____81 _____668

     IOWA _____314 _____45 _____359

     KANSAS _____360 _____42 _____402

     KENTUCKY _____430 _____63 _____493

     LOUISIANA _____550 _____76 _____626

     MAINE _____194 _____20 _____214

     MARYLAND _____389 _____70 _____459

     MASSACHUSETTS _____450 _____63 _____513

     MICHIGAN _____906 _____144 _____1050

     MINNESOTA _____483 _____56 _____539

     MISSISSIPPI _____250 _____45 _____295

     MISSOURI _____651 _____68 _____719

     MONTANA _____210 _____21 _____231

     NEBRASKA _____219 _____43 _____262

     NEVADA _____172 _____32 _____204

     NEW HAMPSHIRE _____171 _____19 _____190

     NEW JERSEY _____419 _____67 _____486

     NEW MEXICO _____254 _____31 _____285

     NEW YORK _____1312 _____164 _____1476

     N CAROLINA _____724 _____90 _____814

     N DAKOTA _____83 _____14 _____97

     N MARIANA ISL _____2 _____5 _____7

     OHIO _____1147 _____161 _____1308

     OKLAHOMA _____461 _____61 _____522

     OREGON _____449 _____64 _____513

     PENNSYLVANIA _____1181 _____175 _____1356

     PUERTO RICO _____180 _____32 _____212

     RHODE ISLAND _____100 _____11 _____111

     S CAROLINA _____356 _____49 _____405

     S DAKOTA _____113 _____17 _____130

     TENNESSEE _____534 _____82 _____616

     TEXAS _____2659 _____350 _____3009

     UTAH _____224 _____21 _____245

     VERMONT _____92 _____18 _____110

     VIRGIN ISLANDS _____9 _____6 _____15

     VIRGINIA _____641 _____106 _____747

     WASHINGTON _____825 _____78 _____903

     WEST VIRGINIA _____190 _____20 _____210

     WISCONSIN _____529 _____76 _____605

     WYOMING _____93 _____11 _____104

     TOTALS________27734___3784 __31518

     And if you think these numbers are horrendous-- consider these:

     Iraqi Security Force and Civilian Deaths When Altered to Include the Scientificly Calculated Death-rate

     Year___ Jan___ Feb____ Mar___ Apr___ May__ Jun___ Jul___ Aug__ Sep__ Oct ___ Nov __ Dec

     2005__1090__1030__ 4330__ 5000__ 8430_ 7650_ 8220_ 18190_ 8800_ 6780 _ 7770 _ 5370

     2006__7830__8650_ 11210_ 10380_ 11200_8880_12870_29660_35430_15410_18650_17520

     2007_18020_ 30140_29840_ 18260_19870_13450_17480_20740_______

     To get the numbers above I multiplied each actual number by 10. And that only added up to 440,000; the high-end scientificly calculated number is actually more than double this amount, 900,000. How can anyone not see what is happening?

     http://www.icasualties.org/oif/IraqiDeathsByYear.aspx

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2007 @ 03:27am

145. If what was happening to Iraq was happening here via our troop casulty numbers:

     State _______Wounded__Deaths__Total

     ALABAMA _____9300 _____1260 _____10560

     ALASKA _____2060_____300 _____2360

     SAMOA _____740 _____120 _____860

     ARIZONA _____12400 _____1760 _____14160

     ARKANSAS _____8460 _____1040 _____9500

     CALIFORNIA _____58380 _____8080 _____66460

     COLORADO _____9140 _____1040 _____10180

     FLORIDA _____25280 _____3140 _____28420

     GEORGIA _____16260 _____2320 _____1858

     ILLINOIS _____20680 _____2700 _____23380

     INDIANA _____11740 _____1620 _____13360

     IOWA _____6280 _____900 _____7180

     KANSAS _____7200 _____840 _____8040

     KENTUCKY _____8600 _____1260 _____9860

     LOUISIANA _____11000 _____1520 _____12520

     MARYLAND _____7780 _____1400 _____9180

     MASSACHUSETTS _____9000 _____1260 _____10260

     MICHIGAN _____18120 _____2880 _____21000

     MINNESOTA _____9660 _____1120 _____10780

     MISSISSIPPI _____5000 _____900 _____5900

     MISSOURI _____13020 _____1360 _____14380

     NEW JERSEY _____8380 _____1340 _____9360

     NEW YORK _____26240 _____3280 _____29520

     N CAROLINA _____14480 _____1800 _____16280

     OHIO _____2294 _____3220 _____26160

     OKLAHOMA _____9220 _____1220 _____10440

     OREGON _____8980 _____1280 _____10260

     PENNSYLVANIA _____23620 _____3500 _____27120

     S CAROLINA _____7120 _____980 _____8100

     TENNESSEE _____10680 _____1640 _____12320

     TEXAS _____53180 _____7000 _____60180

     VIRGINIA _____12820 _____2120 _____14940

     WASHINGTON _____16500 _____1560 _____18060

     WISCONSIN _____10580 _____1520 _____12100

     TOTALS________554680_____75680 ____630360

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2007 @ 04:14am

146. er, Ohio___22940

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2007 @ 04:17am

147. Er, I meant in proportion to Iraq.

     It's late. I'm off to bed. Night.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2007 @ 04:20am

148. "The Chandra Levy case is a missing persons case. And I think we all ought to let the law-enforcement authorities focus on finding Chandra Levy and relieving the terrible trauma and nightmare that her family and friends have gone through," Lieberman told Fox News Sunday. "And when that is over, politicians can begin to speak out."

     Saturday, a spokeswoman for Vice President Dick Cheney, said Cheney met with Condit around the same time Levy was logging off her computer in her apartment May 1.

     Juleanna Glover Weiss said the meeting happened between 12:30 p.m. and 12:50 p.m. in Cheney's office in the House of Representatives. The meeting was "at Condit's request," she said, and included Cheney and some of Cheney's staff discussing the California energy crisis.

     http://archives.cnn.com/2001/US/07/21/missing.intern/index.html

     How does Lieberman feel about Israeli spying in the United States?

     http://www.aztlan.net/israeli_sexpionage.htm

     Israeli Sexpionage : The McGreevey, Condit and Clinton Affairs

     All 9/11 Airports Serviced by One Israeli Owned Company

     http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/ICTS.html

     So who tipped off Zim? Who tipped off Odigo? Who tipped off those Pentagon officials? Who tipped off those Israeli workers in New York? I think it's safe to say it wasn't Osama Bin Laden.

     http://www.aljazeera.com/cgi-bin/conspiracy_theory/fullstory.asp?id

     http://adlusa.us/israelis_evacuate.htm

     Scores dead in three Amman hotel bombings; Israelis evacuated before attack

     How does Israel ALWAYS know before hand that a terror attack is about to occur?

     Hey Joe...what's the deal with Israel?

     http://www.propagandamatrix.com/articles/july2005/070705standstogai

     LONDON SUBWAY BOMBINGS 2005 - "FALSE FLAG" TERROR?

     http://www.indymedia.org/en/2006/05/839272.shtml

     RECENT BOMBINGS IN EGYPT - "FALSE FLAG" TERROR?

     EGYPTIAN ANALYST: CAN'T RULE OUT THAT MOSSAD WAS INVOLVED IN ATTACK http://www.ynetnews.com/...506,L-3243397,00.html http://www.ynetnews.com/Ext/Comp/ArticleLayout/CdaArticlePrintPrevi

     http://911research.wtc7.net/sept11/warnings.html

     Israeli Owned Odigo says workers were warned of attack

     Hey Joe, What's the deal with Israel?

     http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spyring.html

     http://www.antichristconspiracy.com/HTML%20Pages/ABCNEWS_com_Were_I

     http://ww1.sundayherald.com/print37707

     http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/deareportisraelispying.html

     http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/fiveisraelis.html

     http://www.waynemadsenreport.com/Artstudents.htm

     http://killtown.blogspot.com/2005/11/dancing-israelis-on-911.html

     Hey Joe, What's the deal with Israel?

     http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7545.htm

     Hey Joe, what's the deal with Israel?

     Report: US sailor spied for Israel David Keyes, THE JERUSALEM POST

     Aug. 9, 2006

     A US Navy sailor, Ariel J. Weinmann, is suspected of spying for Israel and has been held in prison for four months, according to an article published Monday in the Saudi daily Al-Watan. It reported that Weinmann is being held at a military base in Virginia on suspicion of espionage and desertion.

     According to the navy, Weinmann was apprehended on March 26 "after it was learned that he had been listed as a deserter by his command." Though initial information released by the navy makes no mention of it, Al-Watan reported that he was returning from an undisclosed "foreign country." American sources close to the Defense Department told Al-Watan that Israel was the country in question.

     Hey Joe, what's the deal with Israel, Spying and Terror?

     Hey Joe - which country are you loyal to?

     Hey Joe, are you ready to tell AIPAC to stop blackmailing US politicians?

     Hey Joe, what's the deal with Israel?

     Joe?

     Posted by plunger at 09/23/2007 @ 12:44pm

149. The first rule of Blackwater is there are no rules

     Posted by proudlib at 09/23/2007 @ 6:19pm

150. the irony of all this is that in privatizing the army through the use of blackwater the hamsters have done nothing more then demonstrate how privatization actually costs more for the same thing that the US government could have done cheaper, better and with oversight and accountability.

     Posted by Will C. at 09/23/2007 @ 10:30pm

151. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/23/2007 @ 04:14am

     YOU MAY BE SPEAKING TRUER THAN YOU KNOW...

     I read last year (and I wish I could remember where but I recall it being reasonably reputable) that the Pentagon is grossly underreporting U.S. deaths from combat in Iraq. The current figure of approximately 3750 deaths represents only those troops who actually died IN Iraq. If you died on the airplane out of Baghdad International, you weren't counted. Sorry I can't supply any "proof" of this but it certainly sounds believable. I wish some enterprising journalist would do a story on this. If "deaths resulting from duty in Iraq" (whether occuring there or elsewhere) one suspects the total would be at least double what is being reported, possibly even much higher.

     Posted by w_m_bear at 09/24/2007 @ 12:06am

152. I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

     Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

     because you are a coward who comes to a lefty site and hides from most of them.

     Posted by CRABWALK 09/21/2007 @ 8:57pm

     HAPPY SMACKDOWN #573 AND COUNTING...

     Way to go, Crab-o!

     Posted by w_m_bear at 09/24/2007 @ 12:18am

153. I need to cut down how many Lefties I see here!

     Posted by HAPPY 09/21/2007 @ 5:18pm

     Then leave.

     I hear the Freepers are looking for a few good mindless lunatics.

     Posted by DR DECIBELS 09/21/2007 @ 6:11pm

     HAPPY SMACKDOWN #572 AND STILL COUNTING...

     I would only argue with your use of the word "good" as applied to our resident mindless lunatic....

     Posted by w_m_bear at 09/24/2007 @ 12:21am

154. hey if happy ignores enough people here he'll set himself up to do what conservatives do best....

     talk to themselves

     Posted by Will C. at 09/24/2007 @ 12:25am

155. Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/24/2007 @ 12:06am

     Yeah, unfortunately the numbers I posted will be close considering:

     "How to explain a Department of Veterans Affairs study of 21,000 veterans of the Gulf War that found rates of birth defects were twice as great for male vets and three times as great for female vets who served in the Gulf War compared to vets who did not? How to explain a Washington Post report in January of 2006 that 518,00 of the 580,000 Gulf War veterans were on disability, over half on permanent disability. How to explain over 13,000 dead Gulf War veterans when only 250 were killed and 7,000 injured in the war itself?"

     http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/021907G.shtml

     http://www.news-journalonline.com/special/uranium/

     http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/95178_du12.shtml

     http://www.gulfwarvets.com/du.htm

     http://www.medscape.com/viewarticle/556376

     http://tinyurl.com/m5mhy

     http://www.azstarnet.com/metro/198240.php

     http://tinyurl.com/3959me

     http://en.rian.ru/world/20070723/69509899.html

     http://tinyurl.com/2mrxml

     http://www.idsnews.com/news/story.aspx?id=25921

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2007 @ 01:38am

156. U.S. soldiers who have been forced to fight, and die, in defense of these international rent-a-cops. Hmmmnnn our soldiers are volunteers. They don't defend the mercs. The mercs can take care of themselves. Just like when they killed those 11 terrorists who attacked them. I just got a blackwater hat over the weekend. It is sooo cool!

     Posted by abell12ct at 09/24/2007 @ 09:25am

157. Just like when they killed those 11 terrorists who attacked them.----Posted by ABELL12CT 09/24/2007 @ 09:25am

     I hadn't heard about that...what's the story (and any link would be nice)?

     Posted by Mask at 09/24/2007 @ 10:46am

158. hey if happy ignores enough people here he'll set himself up to do what conservatives do best....

     talk to themselves

     Posted by WILL C. 09/24/2007 @ 12:25am | ignore this person

     The best way to get onto Happy's ignore list is to ask him why he refuses to enlist and volunteer for Iraq duty. You know, provide real support for the war to which he gives utterly meaningless verbal support (but I'd bet the magnet is on his car). I had to do that a couple of times, but it worked. I think it was after he claimed to have been in the service ("you fell into my trap" was his response) and I asked him to name the wars in which he had fought. He never did answer that one, other than to tell me that I'm on his ignore list. You can only imagine my sadness, the grief, the unimaginable pain, the...OK, maybe not.

     Posted by jmusolino at 09/24/2007 @ 12:29pm

159. You can only imagine my sadness, the grief, the unimaginable pain, the...OK, maybe not.

     Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/24/2007 @ 12:29pm

     You have to understand happy. He's very delicate and easily flustered.

     Posted by Will C. at 09/24/2007 @ 10:14pm

160. This one lists 78 sources:

     http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article18242.htm

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/25/2007 @ 11:57am

161. U.S. Use of Radiological Weapons

     Calls for an International Tribunal

     By Mark H. Gaffney

     08/23/07 "ICH" -- - In 1991 the US military introduced a new weapon that the people of the world–––with hindsight–––will probably come to view as symbolic of America's failed leadership after the Cold War. The introduced weapon was a new kind of munition: shells and bullets made from depleted uranium (DU). It turned out to be extremely effective in the first Gulf War against the forces of Saddam Hussein. Unfortunately, the DU weapons also proved nearly as dangerous to our own troops and to Iraqi civilians. The military alliance cobbled together by George Bush Sr. won a decisive victory in that war. But since its conclusion at least 13,000 American veterans have died from DU-related causes, far more than the 148 who died in combat; and of the nearly 700,000 who served in the war at least 250,000 are now (in 2007) permanently disabled; a percentage far higher than in any previous war.[1] Despite this, Pentagon generals continue to insist that DU munitions pose no danger, and remain committed to their use. Even as I write, the Department of Defense (DoD) moves ahead with research that could lead to the deployment of DU weapons in space.[2]

     Yet, a UN Sub-Committee has declared DU weapons illegal, and last November the European Union (EU) issued its fourth call for a DU moratorium. More and more frequently, one hears the charge that America's use of these weapons in Iraq, Kuwait, Afghanistan and Yugoslavia was a war crime. In 2004, for example, a citizen's tribunal in Japan convicted George W. Bush in absentia for crimes against humanity.[3] Is America headed for a showdown with the world over depleted uranium?

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/25/2007 @ 12:01pm

162. You have to understand happy. He's very delicate and easily flustered.

     Posted by WILL C. 09/24/2007 @ 10:14pm | ignore this person

     I guess that's what happens when (as someone had put it in a previous thread) his mouth is writing checks that his ass won't cover!

     Posted by jmusolino at 09/25/2007 @ 2:56pm

163. Do I have the math right?: We lost about 3 thousand on 9/11. We have lost 3700 hundred soldiers, countless are injured, countless families are suffering BUT Iraq is now a democracy! They have welcomed US with open arms. The area is finally stable and millions are happy to call the area home!! Oh, and lets not forget that the Saudis, most of where the 9/11 plotters originated, are dead or in jail. Of course their leader, Osama is now no longer a thread to US. All this and our reputation in the world is the benevolent and all powerfull leader!! Who's your daddy? don't make me take out the belt! who's your daddy? SAY IT LOUD!!

     Posted by robin marti at 09/25/2007 @ 6:12pm