Former Senator Larry Craig, R-Bathroom

After forcing Idaho Senator Larry Craig to resign for the twin "crimes" of being a fool and appearing to be gay, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, R-Kentucky, tried as hard as he could to seem sorry for the man whose trip to the wrong bathroom on the wrong day cost him a Senate seat.

"It is my hope he will be remembered not for this, but for his three decades of dedicated public service," chirped McConnell, who just days before was denouncing Craig's "unforgivable" desires, sicking the ethics committee on the misdemeanor senator and stripping him of his committee assignments.

Republicans leaders, who took no action against let-the-good-times-roll Senator David Vitter after the Louisiana Republican's penchant for prostitutes was revealed, couldn't get Craig out of their caucus quick enough.

It wasn't a fear of any "gay germs" that might be spread by Craig--the minority leader is well aware of the fact that Craig was hardly the only closeted Republican on Capitol Hill. It was that Craig was the most expendable man in the Senate. No one noticed he was there. No one will miss him.

McConnell and his lieutenants wanted Craig out fast because he was only doing more harm to the party's seriously soiled reputation and because any Republican who replaces him now will be likely to hold the seat for the embattled Republican caucus in next year's election.

That's what makes McConnell's goodbye to Craig the most hypocritical statement heard during the whole of the Senate GOP's recent bathroom break.

The minority leader knows full well that the only thing that will be remembered about Larry Craig's 33 years in the political arena – as a state legislator, congressman and, since 1990, member of the most exclusive club in America – is that the senator failed to flush when following a cop out of the stall where he had been caught cruising.

Craig was such a senatorial no-account that, even though he arrived in the chamber well before the Republican revolution of 1994 and thus should have been a powerhouse by now, one of his primary claims to "fame" was as a key player in the Congressional Potato Caucus.

If Craig was known for anything, aside from his extracurricular activities, it was for his bizarre lambasting of then-President Bill Clinton for fooling around with a White House intern. The senator told Tim Russert on NBC's Meet The Press that, "The American people already know that Bill Clinton is a bad boy--a naughty boy. I'm going to speak out for the citizens of my state, who in the majority think that Bill Clinton is probably even a nasty, bad, naughty boy."

At least Craig slurping references to naughtiness made him sound flamboyant.

That's more than can be said for the rest of his tenure in Washington, where he arrived with Ronald Reagan in 1981 and voted the party line about as consistently as could be expected for a man whose primary claim on a Senate seat was his party affiliation. Craig liked to play cowboy and pretend to be an independent-thinking westerner. But if a Republican president said "Jump," Craig asked "How high?" And if a Republican Senate leader said "crawl," he asked, "How low?" As a member of successive Congresses, he was for undeclared wars, curtailing civil liberties, tipping the economic scales to favor the wealthy, despoiling the environment and delivering on a regular basis for Wall Street's free-trade agenda as the proud co-chair of the "World Trade Organization Caucus for Farmers and Ranchers." And Craig was against same-sex marriage, extending the federal definition of hate crimes to cover sexual orientation and protecting the employment rights of gays and lesbians.

The senator's interest groups ratings were as predictable as his hypocrisy. He had a 100 percent rating from the Christian Coalition, and a 0 percent rating from the Human Rights Campaign. He was the best of the bunch as far as the Business-Industry Political Action Committee was concerned, and pretty close to the worst in the eyes of Public Citizen.

There are those who might suggest that Craig at least served as a consistent conservative. But even that is untrue. When hardcore conservatives broke with the Bush Administration on spending and immigration issues, Craig refused to deviate from the White House line.

Craig was not even in tune enough with his home state to stand with fellow Idaho Republicans like former Congressman Clement Leroy "Butch" Otter--who, as Idaho's governor will appoint the senator's replacement--in defense of privacy rights As Craig's congressional colleague, Otter was a remarkably determined defender of Constitutional rights, who voted with Senator Russ Feingold, D-Wisconsin, against the Patriot Act in the fall of 2001 and who emerged as one of the sharpest Republican critics of the Bush Administration's warrantless wiretapping schemes and related assaults on basic liberties.

Had Larry Craig sided with Butch Otter in those fights, had he ever once done anything honorable or even interesting, his exit might merit some reflection on "his three decades of dedicated public service." As it is, Craig will be remembered accurately--as an otherwise forgettable hack who cruised out of the Senate without ever contributing a thing to the chamber or the country.

Mitch McConnell got the equation precisely wrong. Nothing about Larry Craig's sojourn in that Minnesota bathroom will ever be so "unforgivable" as the fact that he was offered three decades in which to shape the fate of his nation for the better- or at least for what he thought was better--and came away with nothing to show for it.

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John Nichols' new book is THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"

Comments (173)

1. NICHOLS: It was that Craig was the most expendable man in the Senate. No one noticed he was there. No one will miss him.

   My holiday gift to NICHOLS.....I actually agree with this statement. If I had to name 50 Senators, Sen. Craig would not have been among the names....truth is, couldn't name either Idaho Senators until THIS!

   JM is right! The Dems, and especially the so-called Libs, blew a huge chance to stick up for Craig (gay or not gay, doesn't matter) even while the Repubs burned him and Sen. Craig's name will live on for how the Repubs will out their own while the Dems much less so!

   Half-time of my game, GT vs Notre Dame (at ND), I'm up 16-0....ND is favored!!!! Hey you Michiganders, you CRABBY, how does it feel to have I-AA Appalachian State take `mighty' Wolverines (pregame ranked #5) to the outhouse!

   Posted by Happy at 09/01/2007 @ 5:49pm

2. Posted by HAPPY 09/01/2007 @ 5:49pm

   Can't answer you Happycoward, you have me on ignore.

   But, f I could, I would say "BUWAHAHAHA, heheheeeeee, guffaw!"

   Go Appalachian State!!

   UofM football is like you Happy, full of itself and concerned with a buck first. Nothing makes my Sunday better than bringing in the Sunday paper with a UM loss on the header.

   Nice attempt to make the dems look bad there boys, but it won't fly. If the dems came to Craigs defense you would be all over them for supporting a troller. It is the repubs who are shown to be a bunch of homophobic backstabbers. Fallout for covering for Foley for so long?

   gonzo flees before the investigations get rolling. Craig caught with his feet wandering. A report showing chimpy what the world knows, he broke the Army.

   A fine LABOR Day weekend.

   don't forget to give a shout out to all of those that built this country, the working men and women of America!!!

   Posted by crabwalk at 09/01/2007 @ 6:40pm

3. Unbelievable. The senator resigns two hours ago, and already Nichols feels compelled to post his usual, totally predictable blather. Does the guy have a pathological need for attention? Apparently. Once again, the Nation's worst columnist ever strikes out. Get a life, Nichols.

   Posted by nationwatch at 09/01/2007 @ 6:54pm

4. NATIONWATCH:

   Um, you do realize that Nichols is a staff writer for the Nation, right? It's pretty much his job to post on timely issues. Hey, if you don't like it, go to Free Republic or Red State, where the writers are making all sorts of excuses for why Craig was trying to get his winky whacked in a men's public bathroom. Why do you feel that Nichols is in anyway at fault for your party's most ardent "moral" pusher-men loving the cock?

   Posted by jorcheim at 09/01/2007 @ 7:04pm

5. "don't forget to give a shout out to all of those that built this country, the working men and women of America!!!

   Posted by CRABWALK 09/01/2007 @ 6:40pm"

   Yes, indeed ..to all the men and women who come up with inventions, new ideas and ways to improve our products we already use!!! Thank you and keep inventing and improving, as it is you in the garages of America, who take ideas and the risks to try something new...and create the jobs as the product sells...and thanks to those who become rich off their ideas and re invest those profits in the company before others want to "invest" them for you!!!

   And the libs should thank all those entrepeneurs who invent and produce those neat litle widgets that millions buy nad create the profits that the govt can tax so we can have all those great society programs that work so well...

   Thanks America..keep it up...and if you want to unionise..go for it...my favorite is the govt employees unions..talk about efficiency and drive..not to mention great service improvements!!!

   And on Monday?..I will be off to work on another trip to Seattle in order to help create another job and taxpayer....It is the best way I can think of to honor Labor Day...by performing my labors well.

   Posted by john maasch at 09/01/2007 @ 7:17pm

6. don't usually do this, but you addressed him so:

   Can't answer you Happycoward, you have me on ignore.

   But, f I could, I would say "BUWAHAHAHA, heheheeeeee, guffaw!"

   Go Appalachian State!!

   UofM football is like you Happy, full of itself and concerned with a buck first. Nothing makes my Sunday better than bringing in the Sunday paper with a UM loss on the header.

   Nice attempt to make the dems look bad there boys, but it won't fly. If the dems came to Craigs defense you would be all over them for supporting a troller. It is the repubs who are shown to be a bunch of homophobic backstabbers. Fallout for covering for Foley for so long?

   gonzo flees before the investigations get rolling. Craig caught with his feet wandering. A report showing chimpy what the world knows, he broke the Army.

   A fine LABOR Day weekend.

   don't forget to give a shout out to all of those that built this country, the working men and women of America!!!

   Posted by CRABWALK 09/01/2007 @ 6:40pm | ignore this person

   Posted by frosty zoom at 09/01/2007 @ 7:19pm

7. y'all be lucky if all 101 (don't forget lord wyoming) senators got caught in a sex scandal.

   WASHINGTON POST, September 0, 2007

   "Entire Senate Caught in Mazola Orgy"

   nothing like a clean slate

   ******happy laboUr day to all******

   (actually, your spelling makes more sense. inglish iz mest up)

   Posted by frosty zoom at 09/01/2007 @ 7:26pm

8. Posted by CRABWALK 09/01/2007 @ 6:40pm (I AM ignoring this person:)

   Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/01/2007 @ 7:19pm

   Good job Frosty! To serve as intermediary! CRABBY is worthy of consideration for parole sometime in the future......

   Speaking of serving as an intermediary......

   ZERO: MAASCH said he's agreed with several of your recent posts on the Sheehan thread(s).....5 in a row or something!

   Posted by Happy at 09/01/2007 @ 7:49pm

9. The senator told Tim Russert on NBC's Meet The Press that, "The American people already know that Bill Clinton is a bad boy - a naughty boy. I'm going to speak out for the citizens of my state, who in the majority think that Bill Clinton is probably even a nasty, bad, naughty boy."

   LARRY, YOU'VE BEEN VERY, VERY NAUGHTY...

   You nasty, bad, naughty boy -- you must be punished severely!

   (My point being that Craig's using this kind of language to describe Clinton should have set off alarm bells right then and there.)

   Posted by w_m_bear at 09/01/2007 @ 7:59pm

10. IS THIS REALLY THE PLACE FOR SPORTS TALK?...

    Aren't there other Web sites for that? Haven't you guys heard of fantasy football, baseball, and basketball? (I know the conservatives among you, especially Happy and Maasch, are intimately familiar with fantasy politics....)

    Posted by w_m_bear at 09/01/2007 @ 8:07pm

11. After forcing Idaho Senator Larry Craig to resign for the twin "crimes" of being a fool and appearing to be gay...

    Actually he plead guilty to misdemeanor charges of lewd conduct. If he was innocent he would still be fighting those charges.

    His other crime was not be true to himself, not coming out of the closet years ago, and wearing those drab blue and grey suits when he should have been wearing Prada.

    Posted by Zeddmen at 09/01/2007 @ 8:55pm

12. P.S. Larry Craig isn't the only one who should resign. So should Llyod Carr. That guy has cost me more money than my last ex-gf. ASU????? C'mon man!

    Posted by Zeddmen at 09/01/2007 @ 9:01pm

13. If the Repub "leadership" forced Craig out for his acts, why haven't they forced out Vitter for his. Craig was only trying to cheat on his wive (in a mens room), but vitter had been cheating on his wive for years it seems. Where's the justice?

    Could it be that Craig was expendable with a Repub Governor and they would just be trading one elephant for another elephant and that with Vitter and a Dem Governor they would be trading an elephant for a donkey?

    The Repug are all for cleaning out the immoral members, just as long as it doesn't hurt.

    "morality is the best of all devices for leading mankind by the nose." Nietzsche

    Posted by COProgressive at 09/01/2007 @ 10:27pm

14. Anybody who hasn't figured it out (and it is subtle)...

    the reason the Repubs forced Craig out and not David Vitter...

    the Governor of Idaho is a Republican and will appoint a Republican to fill Craig's seat.

    Vitter is from Louisiana...governor? Kathleen Blanco, Democrat.

    Posted by Mask at 09/01/2007 @ 10:31pm

15. testing

    Posted by jones at 09/01/2007 @ 10:39pm

16. Read Nichols. Wordy, wordy, wordy.

    The MSM was stuck for a grammar for this one. "picadiloes" (whatever) sucks. "I am not gay and never have been" ain't exactly shuck 'n jive. It's not caught-in-the-act adolescent hypocricy, either. There is something else going on here, I think is actually metaphysical. I am posting to present that.

    He actually thinks he's not "gay". He can do so because it is not the word he uses in his own mind for what he does and is. It is the word that, for him, applies to those who use it politically for themselves, acting like vulgar and disgusting freaks in parades etc..

    This homosexuality in split-off, reversed form -- opposing at the public level what is practiced at the private -- is definitely a GOP Repube perversion. RNC chair Mehlman, Guckert, Foley, not Craig...it's a virtual nest of pedophile priests up there (no kin to the Catholics; maybe vaguely) So that needs bringing out. Doesn't seem as bad as the pink swastika crowd early in Hitler's Germany, which claimed evolutionary superiority), but its there, and its right-wing. (forget Barney; hapless)

    The thing is, they are all like that. All the Republicans who have stood as the solid voting block behind every war measure Bush has introduced have used words with a different meaning than reality supports, thus deflecting the flow-of-process from the direction it would otherwise take. In this case, the loop goes through and beyond Hee-Haw, Minnie Perle, Granpa Jones garter snapper, .... this one, WITHOUT VISUALS! -- will get guffaws from here to eternity. Its like 9/11 for Republicans, I kid you not. Boy, are they in deep doo doo.

    ***added reality note:

    With the departure of Rove, Gonzales, Snow, et al, one has to wonder who is running the store up there. Yet the count-down to attack on Iran seems hardly to skip a beat. Here's O'Reilly in yesterday's NYPost. "There is little difference between al Qaeda and the mullahs who call the shots in Tran. Both groups want to annihilate Westerners and Jews." (sic

    Posted by jones at 09/02/2007 @ 12:16am

17. I tried to "refrain from straying off-topic" but really, having 3 of the 7 active blog threads on Craig or same-sex marriage have firmly established what TN is all about.....Pop media dripping with bathroom ?humor? and sleaze!

    Now for the next breaking news and a follow up to the outstanding investigative journalism done by the WSJ earlier this week--exposing Norman Hsu and his web of (seemingly) connected donors, most conspicuously, the Paw family of SF--today, the front page WSJ article, with color photo of Mr. Hsu, is headlined:

    "Hsu Faces Probe of Fund Raising For Democrats"

    The U.S. Justice Department is investigating possible campaign-finance violations by top Democratic fundraiser Norman Hsu........

    Mr. Hsu has maintained a very low profile within New York's apparel industry.......the U.S. Association of Importers of Textiles and Apparel, said they had never heard of Mr. Hsu. Firms that track shipments to U.S. importers also found no record that companies listed by Mr. Hsu had imported goods into the U.S. over the past year.....many acquaintances in New York say they aren't sure what he did for a living......

    Mr. Hsu raised more than $1 million for Mrs. Clinton's campaign......

    Federal investigators are looking at donations by members of the Paw family. They have given $244,000 to Democratic candidates. Mrs. Clinton has been the top recipient of campaign donations from the Paw family.......

    ------------------------------------------------------

    The Clintons are the Manchurian President/Candidate....so we gather, fine! But, can't they cover their tracks better than to take money from a Hong Kong-born scammer with felony Fraud conviction in the US? Where are the Clintons' screeners for unknown Big Money--from obscure `Textile Tycoon' wanting to become fast friends--should raise red flags, shouldn't it?

    Posted by Happy at 09/02/2007 @ 12:22am

18. I know the conservatives among you, especially Happy and Maasch, are intimately familiar with fantasy politics....)

    Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/01/2007 @ 8:07pm

    fantasy politics. excellent. i'm going to steal that one.

    football (you know, the one you THROW) is o.k.

    good to take a vacation from the news, you know

    plus it shows that two people who think each other are imbeciles can still be friends.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:48am

19. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/01/2007 @ 7:17pm

    thanks taxpayercreator!

    it seems most people around here don't want to overtax the little (medium) dude.

    we want mr greedyman (sorry again, haps) to pay his fair share. after all, he receives a disproportional return from the planet.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:52am

20. Good job Frosty! To serve as intermediary! CRABBY is worthy of consideration for parole sometime in the future......

    Posted by HAPPY 09/01/2007 @ 7:49pm

    canadian's gotta be good for sumpt'in, right? (eh?--way to cliché)

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:53am

21. Posted by MASK 09/01/2007 @ 10:31pm

    BINGO-RAMA!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:55am

22. testing

    Posted by JONES 09/01/2007 @ 10:39pm

    ........aren't we all?..................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:55am

23. The Clintons are the Manchurian President/Candidate....so we gather, fine! But, can't they cover their tracks better than to take money from a Hong Kong-born scammer with felony Fraud conviction in the US? Where are the Clintons' screeners for unknown Big Money--from obscure `Textile Tycoon' wanting to become fast friends--should raise red flags, shouldn't it?

    Posted by HAPPY 09/02/2007 @ 12:22am

    hey, the BEST plastic is "made in china".

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 04:58am

24. Word has it the Larry Flint........................

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 09/02/2007 @ 12:40am

    i warned HSUBFOOLS 09/01/2007 @ 1:18pm about quoting clooney. and now you. larry flint.

    alas, brandish thy shield for the venom of righteousness shall sprat thy bodifice with the fury of a thousand angry people stuck behind somebody with a special order at the drive-throo.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 05:09am

25. IS THIS REALLY THE PLACE FOR SPORTS TALK?...

    Aren't there other Web sites for that? Haven't you guys heard of fantasy football, baseball, and basketball? (I know the conservatives among you, especially Happy and Maasch, are intimately familiar with fantasy politics....)

    Posted by W_M_BEAR 09/01/2007 @ 8:07pm

    this is a bar, isn't it?

    NORM!

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/01/2007 @ 7:17pm

    I guess that is why we have July 35th as a national holiday, entrepreneurs day? Why do you hate people that work for a living John. Still don't get it.

    why don't you review a little history before making grandiose ill informed comments about unions:

    how about the Calumet MI tragedy, where 73 people died in a union hall, mostly children. Their crime? Being in a union hall.

    "The Ludlow massacre pertains to the violent deaths of 17 people during an attack by the Colorado National Guard on a tent colony of 1,200 striking coal miners and their families at Ludlow, Colorado in the USA on April 20, 1914. These deaths occurred after a day-long fight between strikers and the Guard. Two women, twelve children, six miners and union officials and one National Guardsman were killed."

    Mining firms had long been able to attract low-skill labor, despite modest wages and stiff cost-cutting policies designed to maintain profits in a competitive industry. This made conditions in the mines difficult and often dangerous for the workers, and the sector became a ripe target for union organizers. Colorado miners had attempted to periodically unionize since the state's first strike in 1883. The Western Federation of Miners organized primarily hardrock miners in the gold and silver camps during the 1890s. Beginning in 1900, the UMWA began organizing coal miners in the western states, including southern Colorado. The UMWA decided to focus on the CF&I because of the company's harsh management tactics under the conservative and distant Rockefellers and other investors. As part of their campaign to break or prevent strikes, the coal companies had lured immigrants, mainly from southern and Eastern Europe and Mexico. CF&I's management purposely mixed immigrants of different nationalities in the mines to discourage communication that might lead to organization

    As was typical in the industry of that day, miners were paid by tons of coal mined and not reimbursed for "dead work," such as laying rails, timbering, and shoring the mines to make them operable. Given the intense pressure to produce, mine safety was often given short shrift. More than 1,700 miners died in Colorado from 1884 to 1912, a rate that was between 2 and 3.5 times the national average during those years. Furthermore, the miners felt they were being short-changed on the weight of the coal they mined, arguing that the scales used for paying them were different from those used for coal customers. Miners challenging the weights risked being dismissed

    Most miners also lived in "company towns," where homes, schools, doctors, clergy, and law enforcement were provided by the company, as well as stores offering a full range of goods that could be paid for in company currency, scrip. However, this became an oppressive environment in which law focused on enforcement of increasing prohibitions on speech or assembly by the miners to discourage union-building activity. Also, under pressure to maintain profitability, the mining companies steadily reduced their investment in the town and its amenities while increasing prices at the company store so that miners and their families experienced worsening conditions and higher costs.

    What did those evil, rotten, lazy miners want? TOO MUCH, according to John Maasch.

    Once everything had been laid out according to their plan, the UMWA presented, on behalf of coal miners, a list of seven demands:

    Recognition of the union as bargaining agent

    An increase in tonnage rates (equivalent to a 10% wage increase)

    Enforcement of the eight-hour work day law

    Payment for "dead work" (laying track, timbering, handling impurities, etc.)

    Weight-checkmen elected by the workers (to keep company weightmen honest)

    The right to use any store, and choose their boarding houses and doctors

    Strict enforcement of Colorado's laws (such as mine safety rules, abolition of scrip), and an end to the dreaded company guard system

    And how did the good Christian mine owners react to the people that were making them filthy rich?

    The company hired the Baldwin-Felts Detective Agency to help break the strike by protecting the replacement workers and otherwise making life difficult for the strikers. Baldwin-Felts had a reputation for aggressive strike breaking. Agents shone searchlights on the tent villages at night and randomly fired into the tents, occasionally killing and maiming people. They used an improvised armored car, mounted with a machine gun that the union called the "Death Special," to patrol the camp's perimeters. The steel-covered car was built in the CF&I plant in Pueblo from the chassis of a large touring sedan. Because of frequent sniping on the tent colonies, miners dug protective pits beneath the tents where they and their families could seek shelter.

    Mine unions in the US= less than a dozen deaths a year in US mines

    No unions in your favorite place, China= 400+ miner deaths a year. But who cares, right? It keeps your trinket prices down.

    I am sure you would have been in charge of the Company Store

    P.S. Larry Craig isn't the only one who should resign. So should Llyod Carr. That guy has cost me more money than my last ex-gf. ASU????? C'mon man!

    Posted by ZEDDMEN 09/01/2007 @ 9:01pm

    Oh, come on, like Maasch says, Carr is worth his 2 million a year, but those crumbs on the field are worth a free dorm room and some meals. It is the mgmt that does ALL the work. So what if they go 8 and 5 this year. Cut Carr that check, he brings in TV dollars.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 07:47am

26. Posted by HAPPY 09/02/2007 @ 12:22am

    1: you left out the Tysons.

    2: you fail to point out that these big donors are corporate types, trolling for tax breaks, lax wage rules, lax tariffs and such. in other words, your kind of people, HAppycoward.

    3: As soon as Shrillery learned Hsu was a felon, she gave up the money. Unlike Chimpy McFlightsuit who allowed a convicted felon to sit with Laura while he preached fer from the floor of the Senate.

    Frosty, thanks, keep it up.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 07:59am

27. On the morning of April 20, the day after Easter was celebrated by the many Greek immigrants at Ludlow, three Guardsmen appeared at the camp ordering the release of a man they claimed was being held against his will. This request prompted the camp leader, Louis Tikas, to meet with a local militia commander at the train station in Ludlow village, a half mile (0.8 km) from the colony. While this meeting was progressing, two companies of militia installed a machine gun on a ridge near the camp and took a position along a rail route about 800 yards (732 m) south of Ludlow. Anticipating trouble, Tikas ran back to the camp. The miners, fearing for the safety of their families, set out to flank the militia positions. A firefight soon broke out. The fighting raged for the entire day. The militia was reinforced by non-uniformed mine guards later in the afternoon. At dusk, a passing freight train stopped on the tracks in front of the Guards' machine gun placements, allowing many of the miners and their families to escape to an outcrop of hills to the east called the "Black Hills." By 7:00 p.m., the camp was in flames, and the militia descended on it and began to search and loot the camp. Louis Tikas, the Ludlow camp's main organizer, had remained in the camp the entire day and was still there when the fire started. Tikas and two other men were captured by the militia. Tikas and Lt. Karl Linderfelt, commander of one of two Guard companies, had confronted each other several times in the previous months. While two militiamen held Tikas, Linderfelt broke a rifle butt over his head. Tikas and the other two captured miners were later found shot dead. Their bodies lay along the Colorado and Southern tracks for three days in full view of passing trains. The militia officers refused to allow them to be moved until a local of a railway union demanded the bodies be taken away for burial.

    During the battle, four women and eleven children had been hiding in a pit beneath one tent, where they were trapped when the tent above them caught fire. Two of the women and all of the children suffocated. These deaths became a rallying cry for the UMWA, who called the incident the "Ludlow Massacre."

    Legacy

    Although the UMWA failed to win recognition by the company, the strike had a lasting impact both on conditions at the Colorado mines and on labor relations nationally. John D. Rockefeller, Jr. engaged labor relations expert, and future Canadian Prime Minister, W. L. Mackenzie King to help him develop reforms for the mines and towns, which included paved roads and recreational facilities, as well as worker representation on committees dealing with working conditions, safety, health, and recreation. There was to be no discrimination of workers who had belonged to unions, and the establishment of a company union. The Rockefeller plan was accepted by the miners in a vote.

    A United States Commission on Industrial Relations (CIR), headed by labor lawyer and Democratic activist Frank Walsh, conducted hearings in Washington, collecting information and taking testimony from all the principals, including Rockefeller. The commission's 1,200 page report suggested many reforms sought by the unions, and provided support for bills establishing a national eight-hour work day and a ban on child labor.

    Damn unions, taking away the right of every child to work in a mine 12 hours a day!!!

    Maasch is right, we need a return to the olden days were workers knew their place and mgmt did ALL the work. We are close with CEO pay, those top guys do everything. They are worth 400 times what a machinist makes, why without that CEO the machinists would not have a clue how to run a Bridgeport. The CEO makes every widget that comes out of his factory, poloshes every one by hand, loads it in trucks and drives it to each store. The workers just stand around and watch in awe as the CEO does it all.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 08:10am

28. The following individuals died in the massacre and are listed on the Ludlow Monument:

    Cellar hole where women and children were trapped during the fire John Bartolotti. Age: 45 Yrs.

    Charlie Costa. Age: 31 Yrs.

    Fedelina Costa. Age: 27 Yrs.

    Lucy Costa. Age: 4 Yrs.

    Onafrio Costa. Age: 6 Yrs.

    James Fyler. Age: 43 Yrs.

    Cloriva Pedregone. Age: 4 Yrs . Rodgerlo Pedregone. Age: 6 Yrs.

    Frank Petrucci. Age: 4 Mo.

    Joe Petrucci. Age: 4½ Yrs.

    Lucy Petrucci. Age: 2½ Yrs.

    Frank Rubino. Age: 23 Yrs.

    William Snyder Jr.. Age: 11 Yrs.

    Louis Tikas. Age: 30 Yrs.

    Eulala Valdez. Age: 8 Yrs.

    Elvira Valdez. Age: 3 Mo.

    Mary Valdez. Age: 7 Yrs.

    Patria Valdez. Age: 37 Yrs.

    So, on Monday, we who give a damn about the condition of our neighbors will remember those that fell fighting for human decency and respect.

    Those who only want mammon will play golf and spread lies about the labor movement.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 08:14am

29. Maasch, if you don't like America, leave.

    Plenty of places around the world that still think stone-age thoughts about labor, like you:

    By Berta Joubert-Ceci Published Jun 13, 2006 11:47 PM

    When workers strike in Colombia, the world's most dangerous country for union leaders, they do so at great risk to their lives. Defiant unions, particularly those that represent the workers toiling in trans national corporations, are the target of the right-wing paramilitary death squads--gangsters more often than not directly hired by the companies as a weapon against labor challenges.

    More frequently, paramilitaries have been reported to have ties with the Colombian government and its army. This makes the murder of unionists a national and even international affair. Ties among the U.S. government, the Colombian government, U.S. corporations and paramilitaries are clearly exposed.

    U.S. President George W. Bush invited Colombian President Alvaro Uribe Velez to visit Washington on June 14 to discuss what a June 7 White House news release called "a range of issues including their shared commitment to advancing opportunity, security, and respect for human rights in Colombia; the importance of free trade to sustained economic growth; and continuing cooperation in areas of mutual interest."

    Meanwhile, an intense labor and human-rights issue has been developing in Colombia. Some 3,500 workers represented by the union SINTRAMIENERGETICA walked out their jobs after the U.S. Drummond Coal Co. refused to negotiate the union's demands in good faith.

    The most crucial union demands related to labor rights, work place safety and investment in the social network of the community. This last includes improvements in health education, housing and other basic needs for the workers and their families.

    The union also asks for a pension and compensation increase for the hard work that lasts an average of 12-to-18 hours daily. Raul Sosa and Estivenson Avila, the workers' spokespersons, said,:"We do not ask for outrageous salaries. What we want is labor stability in the company. We do not want millions; we want thorough solutions." (in the website drummondwatch.org, May 19)

    What is Drummond Coal Co.?

    Based in Birmingham, Ala., the Drummond Company is owned by Garry Neil Drummond. According to the company website, the "Drummond Co., Inc. is principally engaged in the business of min ing, purchasing, processing and selling of coal and coal derivatives. … Drum mond controls reserves totaling over 2 billion tons and shipped over 28 million tons of coal in 2004. …The international mining operations are located in Colombia, serving customers in both the U.S. and Europe."

    Drummond moved to Colombia in 1994, after closing most of its mines in Alabama. There it financed railroads and the necessary infrastructure to funnel the coal out of the Mina Pribbenow open coal pit in La Loma, in the Cesar region in the Northeast, to Drummond" in the northern Caribbean coast. There, it is loaded into gigantic ships, landing as profits in the U.S. pockets of Drummond.

    Reuters reported on May 24, the third day of the strike: "The mine, which produced 22 million tons of coal last year, supplies the bulk of Colombia's 55 million ton annual coal production. Coal sales represent the second-largest income from exports for Colombia, at $2.6 billion in 2005. The state receives revenue from exploration, but not from profits as the mines are owned by foreign operators."

    By criminally neglecting the workers' demands, management has kept profits high through the years. Many workers have died. Others have been seriously injured due to faulty equipment and unsafe working conditions.

    Workers are required to work in shifts of at least 12 hours for two full weeks alternating day and night shifts. The company increased the Caterpillar front-end loaders from 22 to 32 tons, causing extreme vibration during the machine operation and resulting in severe spinal cord injuries to the workers. Some workers were permanently disabled.

    Drummond Watch, a website that monitors the company's action, reported, "The Company has fired a number of workers with spinal column injuries, and tries to evade responsibility by claiming that these injuries are not work-related."

    In the year 2000, the collapse of an excavation wall buried three workers alive. The workers had warned about an unsafe cut in the wall, but the bosses disregarded their complaint and ordered them to continue working in those unsafe conditions. After the accident, although the company wanted the rest of the workers to continue laboring, workers stopped for the rest of the day in honor of their deceased comrades.

    On March 12, 2001, while in negotiations to seek justice for those deaths and to improve safety conditions at the mine, Valmore Lacarno Rodríguez and Víctor Hugo Orcasita Amaya, president and vice-president of the union, were murdered. Fifteen men, some in military uniform, had stopped the company bus in which they and other workers were riding toward Valledupar, where most of the workers and their families live, about 30 miles from the mine. They forcibly removed Lacarno and Orcasita, hitting and shooting Locarno in the face right in front of his horrified co-workers. Orcasita was forced into the woods where he was later found dead, with his fingernails torn off.

    Augusto Jimenez, the president of Drummond LTD in Colombia, had threatened both men earlier, saying, "El pez muere por su propia boca" (The fish dies by opening its mouth).

    Though Drummond makes available secure housing and transportation for the U.S. citizens who work for the company, it had refused an urgent request by Locarno and Orcasita to have permission to stay in the mine after work to safeguard their lives after they'd been threatened by paramilitaries. The two unionists even faxed a request directly to Gary Drummond before they were murdered.

    Gustavo Soler, another worker who took on the now dangerous leadership of the union, was also murdered after receiving paramilitary threats. He had also requested sanctuary in the mine after work and once again the company refused.

    The Colombian government provides every protection to the company while leaving the workers to fend for themselves against the criminal paramilitaries.

    An Oct. 6, 2003, article in the Wall Street Journal reported: "The company, one of the biggest foreign investors in Colombia, has built barracks for the Colombian military at La Loma and near the port. More than 300 Colombian army troops are stationed at La Loma, where Drummond provides them subsidized food and fuel. The troops protect company facilities and screen employees, Drummond says."

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 08:27am

30. On May 7, picketing resumed outside the Auto-Lite plant. At first, there were only four pickets.[13] Selander and Pollock were arrested for contempt of court the same day, but released on May 8 with suspended sentences. The day of their release, the picket line returned--although this time nearly 40 picketers marched before the plant gates. On May 11, Selander, Pollock and all the picketers were arrested. Judge Stuart attempted to try the group, and noted corporate attorney Edward Lamb argued the case for the defendants. During the short trial, the League continued to put 30 to 60 picketers on the line every day, and the police continued to arrest large numbers of them. The League, meanwhile, packed the courtroom with hundreds of supporters, who cheered, sang and disrupted the trial. Stuart finally released the entire group of arrestees after a few days without issuing a decision.[13][15][1][10] As Judge Stuart attempted to try the picketers, the Auto-Lite company decided to break the strike. The firm hired approximately 1,500 strikebreakers as replacement workers to re-open the plant and start production. The company also hired armed guards to protect the replacement workers, and the Lucas County sheriff's department deputized large numbers of special deputies (paid for by Auto-Lite) to assist the company's private security personnel.[1][10] Additionally, Auto-Lite purchased $11,000 worth of tear and vomit gas munitions and stored them in the plant.[16] When the AWP learned about the strikebreakers, it engaged in mass picketing. On May 21, Budenz spoke to a group of 1,000 pickets in front of the plant. The next day, the pickets swelled to 4,000. By the morning of May 23, the number of picketers rose to 6,000. City and company officials began to worry that the Toledo police, who were disaffected because of wage cuts and layoffs, were beginning to sympathize with the strikers and were no longer reliable.[1][10] [edit]The "Battle of Toledo"

    On the afternoon of Wednesday, May 23, the sheriff of Lucas County decided to take action against the picketers. In front of a crowd which now numbered nearly 10,000, sheriff's deputies arrested Budenz and four picketers. As the five were taken to jail, a deputy began beating an elderly man.[1][10][17][18] Infuriated, the crowd began hurling stones, bricks and bottles at the sheriff's deputies. A fire hose was turned on the crowd, but the mob seized it and turned the hose back on the deputies. Many deputies fled inside the plant gates, and Auto-Lite managers barricaded the plant doors and turned off the lights. The deputies gathered on the roof and began shooting tear gas bombs into the crowd. So much tear and vomit gas was used that not even the police could enter the riot zone. The mob retaliated by hurling bricks and stones through the plant's windows for seven hours. The strikers overturned cars in the parking lot and set them ablaze. The inner tubes of car tires were turned into improvised slingshots, and bricks and stones launched at the building. Burning refuse was thrown into the open door of the plant's shipping department, setting it on fire. In the early evening, the rioters attempted to break into the plant and seize the replacement workers, security personnel and sheriff's deputies. Police fired shots at the legs of rioters to try to stop them. The gunfire was ineffective, and only one person was (slightly) wounded. Hand-to-hand fighting broke out as the rioters broke into the plant. The mob was repelled, but tried twice more to break into the facility before they gave up late in the evening. More than 20 people were reported injured during the melee. Auto-Lite president Clem Miniger was so alarmed by the violence that he ringed his home with a cordon of armed guards.[1][10][19][20][21] At 5:30 a.m. on Thursday, May 24, 900 Ohio National Guardsmen, most of them teenagers,[22] arrived in a light rain. The troops included eight rifle companies, three machine-gun companies and a medical unit. The troops cleared a path through the picket line, and the sheriff's deputies, private security guards and replacement workers were able to leave the plant.[1][10][20][21][23][24] Later that morning, Judge Stuart issued a new injunction banning all picketing in front of the Auto-Lite plant, but the picketers ignored the order.[1][20] During the afternoon of May 24, Charles Phelps Taft II, son of the former president, was sent to Toledo by President Roosevelt to act as a special mediator in the dispute.[23] AFL president William Green sent an AFL organizer to the city as well to help the local union leadership bring the situation under control.[1] During the late afternoon and early evening of May 24, a huge crowd of about 6,000 people gathered again in front of the Auto-Lite plant. Around 10 p.m., the crowd began taunting the soldiers and tossing bottles at them. The militia retaliated by launching a particularly strong form of tear gas into the crowd. The mob picked up the gas bombs and threw them back. For two hours, the gas barrage continued. Finally, the rioters surged back toward the plant gates. The National Guardsmen charged with bayonets, forcing the crowd back. Again the mob advanced. The soldiers fired into the air with no effect, then fired into the crowd--killing 27-year-old Frank Hubay (shot four times) and 20-year-old Steve Cyigon. Neither was an Auto-Lite worker, but had joined the crowd out of sympathy for the strikers. At least 15 others also received bullet wounds, while 10 Guardsmen were treated after being hit by bricks.[3][21][25][1][23] A running battle occurred throughout the night between National Guard troops and picketers in a six-block area surrounding the plant.[25][1] A smaller crowd rushed the troops again a short time after Hubay and Cyigon's deaths, and two more picketers were injured by gunfire. A company of troops was sent to guard the Bingham Tool and Die plant, a squad of sheriff's deputies dispatched to protect the Logan Gear factory, and another 400 National Guardsmen ordered to the area. Nearly two dozen picketers and troopers were injured by hurled missiles during the night.[1][23] The total number of troops now in Toledo was 1,350, the largest peace-time military build-up in Ohio history.[3][1][11]

    Auto-Lite and FLU 18384 reached a tentative agreement settling the strike on June 2, 1934. The union won a 5 percent wage increase, and a minimum wage of 35 cents an hour.

    35 cents an hour!! those greedy bastards!!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 08:39am

31. "Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/01/2007 @ 7:17pm

    I guess that is why we have July 35th as a national holiday, entrepreneurs day? Why do you hate people that work for a living John. Still don't get it.

    why don't you review a little history before making grandiose ill informed comments about unions:

    how about the Calumet MI tragedy, where 73 people died in a union hall, mostly children. Their crime? Being in a union hall.

    Crab,

    1914?

    Ok

    2007, check out the union hall in M ichigan where workers are getting full pay and bennies for NOT working.. in the proice of todays cars..

    The rest of you cut and paste is HISTORY and the unions workeed then..not they give the public schools...

    My earlier post tands even more..you make my point

    Hate working people I love them, as I am one of them,...I do hate those that impede work, tho,...

    YOU are the only one who mentioned hate...

    And I don't care if one joins a union or not and wouldn't prevent one from doing so..

    Just keep the union thugs, mobsters and picketsa signs away from my business...jobs are created from risk takers providing products and services...not from guys threatiening youyr person or cars in order to forece you to jolin....unions are job killers today...and maybe in 1914 they were neccessary...but in 2007...you give us govt employees and school teachers..

    And I don't need a Holiday to recognize myself...I do that every payday.....I enjoy my work everyday..

    Thats another point..

    Posted by john maasch at 09/02/2007 @ 09:19am

32. Too early and can't find my glasses, sorry for my normal typos..

    Posted by john maasch at 09/02/2007 @ 09:20am

33. this forum is irrelevant.

    why don't you off-topic talkers go bond in a toilet stall.

    Posted by jones at 09/02/2007 @ 09:39am

34. I thought I would repost and correct multitude of spelling and typing errors...

    I am a product of the union school system..

    "Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/01/2007 @ 7:17pm

    I guess that is why we have July 35th as a national holiday, entrepreneurs day? Why do you hate people that work for a living John. Still don't get it.

    why don't you review a little history before making grandiose ill informed comments about unions:

    how about the Calumet MI tragedy, where 73 people died in a union hall, mostly children. Their crime? Being in a union hall.

    Crab,

    1914?

    Ok

    2007, check out the union hall in Michigan where workers are getting full pay and bennies for NOT working.. in the price of todays cars..

    The rest of your cut and paste is HISTORY and the unions worked back then, ..now they give the public schools...

    My earlier post stands even more..you make my point,

    Hate working people? who hates them? why would one hate ones own employees? I love them, as I am one of them,...I do hate those that impede work, tho,...

    YOU are the only one who mentioned hate...

    And I don't care if one joins a union or not and I wouldn't prevent one from doing so.. that is a choice, sometimes,...I really like the lets vote openly and see who voted NO,and send Vito over with some union brochures, in case he misunderstood, and we will save him the trip to the Post Office and a stamp ..we can collect his dues ...

    Just keep the union thugs, mobsters and picket signs away from my business...jobs are created from risk takers providing products and services...not from guys threatening your person or cars(in my case) in order to force you to join....unions are job killers today...and maybe in 1914 they were neccessary...but in 2007...you give us govt employees and school teachers..

    And I don't need a Holiday to recognize myself...I do that every payday.....I enjoy my work everyday..

    Thats is another point ...we need to celebrate the reason those union laborers have a job...

    and it ain't becasue they are in a union, it is because someone somewhere took a risk ..and it worked.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/02/2007 @ 09:19am

    Posted by john maasch at 09/02/2007 @ 09:42am

35. 1914?

    Ok

    whattsa matter john, can't read?

    By Berta Joubert-Ceci Published Jun 13, 2006 11:47 PM is pretty darn current.

    the reason we have a labor day is to recognize PAST efforts. Like Veterans day, were we give thanks for veterans that actually won wars. Should we stop honoring the service of those that have failed to bring peace to Iraq?

    I will point out once again, teachers unions/guvt workers work for you. If you are unhappy with them, you can get elected and change things. But, you hate democracy, I know. You prefer centralized corporate control. Or control via fiat by the wealthy white men. everybody else is just sucking the tit, after all. Nobody else works but you.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 12:34pm

36. 2007, check out the union hall in Michigan where workers are getting full pay and bennies for NOT working.. in the price of todays cars..

    Prove it. Show me the facts I am lacking. Show me the contracts that were never signed by mgmt, but are being honored by mgmt. Show me the competition, the countries with subsidized health care. Show me the top managers at the Big Three that NEVER took a golden parachute and ALWAYS made good long term decisions based on consumer satisfaction.

    Get real. I know of more than one union guy that used to wallow in laziness. I am willing to bet they are now a minute minority. I am not saying unions have not exceeded their mandates, or been corrupt. But, find me any large group that has not been riled by scandal. How about the Republican Party you worship so much? Whats this thread about? Why is Abramoff in jail?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 12:39pm

37. PS, as a manager I went out and worked a few hours today.

    guess I ain't a lib.

    Ask yourself this, O Wise One, Where would the civil rights movement have been without the workers movement?

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/02/2007 @ 12:43pm

38. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/02/2007

    john, any organization, even the best intentioned one, will become corrupt over time as it accumulates money and power (why are people so messed up?).

    unions themselves are not inherently corrupt and a large part of the prosperity you currently enjoy is precisely because of the union activities that mr. crab highlighted.

    workers demanded more money and thus the money received through their effort became more evenly distributed, albeit still in a severly skewed fashion.

    more evenly distributed income meant more money spread around to people selling stuff, and thus more opportunities for prosperity.

    corrupt people see the collective power of unions as a way of achieving personal gain, much the same way as happens in government.

    as THE CORPORATION (all seeing, all knowing) becomes more and more powerful, the need for unions acting as a counter-weight becomes more pressing, not less.

    otherwise, a few will have all the coin and prosperity goes out the window.

    think of the countries with the worst distribution of income:

    DEFINITION: This index measures the degree of inequality in the distribution of family income in a country. The index is calculated from the Lorenz curve, in which cumulative family income is plotted against the number of families arranged from the poorest to the richest.

    SOURCE: CIA World Factbook, 14 June, 2007 (ooooh, gotta be true)

    #1 Namibia: 70.7

    #2 Lesotho: 63.2

    #3 Botswana: 63

    #4 Sierra Leone: 62.9

    #5 Central African Republic: 61.3

    #6 Bolivia: 60.6

    #7 Guatemala: 59.9

    #8 South Africa: 59.3

    #9 Paraguay: 56.8

    #10 Zimbabwe: 56.8

    ...........

    #112 Finland: 26.9

    #113 Hungary: 26.9

    #114 Uzbekistan: 26.8

    #115 France: 26.7

    #116 Albania: 26.7

    #117 Bosnia and Herzegovina: 26.2

    #118 Slovakia: 25.8

    #119 Norway: 25.8

    #120 Belgium: 25

    #121 Sweden: 25

    #122 Denmark: 23.2

    as you can see income distribution has a fairly strong correlation to a countries economic health.

    BTW:

    #37 Côte d'Ivoire: 45.2

    #38 Uruguay: 45.2

    #39 United States: 45

    #40 Cameroon: 44.6

    #41 Kenya: 44.5

    Weighted average: 40.5

    looks like y'all are just below average

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 12:56pm

39. Posted by JONES 09/02/2007 @ 09:39am

    o.k. back on topic.

    craig messed up. scandal. resignation.

    o.k. now, let's get back off topic

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 12:58pm

40. CRUSTACEANSTRUT

    more happy unions in colombia:

    Coke is it! [pbs.org]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/02/2007 @ 1:06pm

41. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/02/2007 @ 12:56pm

    FZ, you know what Mark Twain said about statistics?

    Here's the problem....if you've got a FEW millionaires in Uruquay, and everybody else is making $5 a day...you get a bad distribution of wealth.

    But if you've got fifty or sixty BILLIONAIRES in the United States and everybody else is making $25-35,000 (affording an apartment, even house that the RICH in Uruquay couldn't afford, and two cars, cable TV, and a couple of cells)....it LOOKS like a bad distribution of wealth too.

    Just like your homeland...not many billionaires in Canada....mostly because most of them moved down HERE to get rich!

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2007 @ 2:01pm

42. Having opposed so much of what you have written over the past years, I never thought I'd see the day when I would agree with you and totally. Yours is a very accurate and extremely funny article. How does a total non-entity like that ever get elected to anything? He reminds me of New York City's interim mayor in 1932 when Jimmy Walker was forced to resign. Mayor O'Brien held his first news conference and the first question that came up was, "Who is going to be yur new police commissioner?" O'Brien, a Tammany hack, scratched his head and replied, "I don't know, they haven't told me yet."

    Well done Mr. Nicols!

    J.H. Cohen, J.D., Ph.D. NYC

    Posted by CritComm at 09/02/2007 @ 4:12pm

43. Who wants to make a bet this guy is doing naughty, nasty, bad boy things in parks and/or their bathrooms... I'm sure YouTube phone message to be posted soon. Can we say-- NEXT:

    Doug Lamborn's voice messages to Jonathan and Anna Bartha

    By The Denver Post

    Article Last Updated: 09/01/2007 05:52:52 PM MDT

    The following is a text of two voice messages that Rep. Doug Lamborn left on the home telephone of Jonathan and Anna Bartha.

    FIRST MESSAGE: "Hello, this is Doug Lamborn calling for either Jonathan or Anna. Something very serious has happened. There was a letter to the editor that you both put in your names to the editor of the Woodmen Edition and there is something that is blatantly false in that letter.

    "I would like to get together with you and show this to you and appeal to you as a brother and sister in Christ. You didn't give me that opportunity but I am happy to overlook that and deal with you on that level because I think that is the right thing to do and show you where you made a blatant, wrong statement.

    "Now there are consequences to this kind of thing, but I would like to work with you in a way that is best for everyone here concerned. So please call me at your earliest convenience. It is now 2:40 (p.m.) on Saturday afternoon.

    SECOND MESSAGE: "Hello, this is Doug Lamborn again, I'm finishing up my message from a moment ago. I got cut off. It is critical that you get back to me as soon as possible on this because I'll be going back to Washington here in a few days and I have to make sure that this is resolved one way or another. And like I said I'd rather resolve this on a Scriptural level but if you are unwilling to do that I will be forced to take other steps, which I would rather not have to do. So please call me. This is essential. Call me by tonight, Saturday night and we can get together sometime Sunday afternoon."

    http://www.denverpost.com/search/ci_6781394

    Just take a look at the guy while reading what he said:

    http://tinyurl.com/ytl6g5

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2007 @ 8:04pm

44. Jonathan and Ann Bartha's letter to the editor of The Woodmen Edition

    Article Last Updated: 08/31/2007 07:45:18 PM MDT

    http://www.denverpost.com/colorado-springs/ci_6773515

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2007 @ 8:12pm

45. Doug Lamborn's letter to Greg Garcia, chairman of the El Paso County Republican Party

    By The Denver Post

    Article Last Updated: 08/31/2007 07:44:45 PM MDT

    http://www.denverpost.com/colorado-springs/ci_6773516

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2007 @ 8:17pm

46. zoom this

    I ain't the topic police, but that is what the board is here for and the content packs a punch.

    However, there seems not to be enough maturity to devoid the symbolic deflection. Seems to be a bunch of gawk squakin' idiots trolling for backdoor hive mind action. Used to be a scene here.

    you want off topic..? always happy ...

    NO WAR FOR ISRAEL

    jail college Republicans

    Posted by jones at 09/02/2007 @ 8:48pm

47. jail college Republicans

    Posted by JONES 09/02/2007 @ 8:48pm

    Needless to say, if you're serious....that makes you no better than those who took away Jose Padilla.

    If you're joking...not that funny.

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2007 @ 9:26pm

48. I am trusting completely FZ' statistics and I would like to know more details on the calculation of the index. Here is what I have to say.

    First, it is a disgrace that while our West Europe counterparts average more or less 25 we do 45 almost doubling them showing where our society is going.

    Second, Mask compared this uneven distribution to the South American country of Uruguay. I am almost positive that over there there is about the same fraction of home ownership than here. And housing is not sub standard. It is simply that here a home price is 300,000 while there is 50,000. The only issues we do better than that country would be probably cars and electronic gadgetry/appliances. Anything else including food and clothing would be basically the same because the relative prices hold.

    Third, it is not that everybody makes about 30,000. More than 6% of the full time working adult population here earns less than $10/hr which is about $20,000 a year.

    Fourth, in most European countries (e.g. France) social services are much extensive than here providing relief to the poor. Here those are scarce and the definition of the poverty line is a scandal.

    Fifth, most of those other countries don't pay that much because they don't have the resources to do so. Here we do have them, yet we don't want to spread society wealth over the less fortunate. Take for example military spending/per capita, who is the one leading? Or relative taxation of the first say 15% of the population compared to West Europe.

    Finally, I do celebrate there is more than (a 100?) billionaires here. But the social and economic structures of the country should be reformed such that everybody that works hard enough should have a liveable wage and decent home.

    Posted by Frank42 at 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

49. "Second, Mask compared this uneven distribution to the South American country of Uruguay. I am almost positive that over there there is about the same fraction of home ownership than here. And housing is not sub standard. It is simply that here a home price is 300,000 while there is 50,000. The only issues we do better than that country would be probably cars and electronic gadgetry/appliances. Anything else including food and clothing would be basically the same because the relative prices hold."

    Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    Question...have you been to Urugauy?

    Posted by ACook at 09/02/2007 @ 10:52pm

50. ...everybody that works hard enough should have a liveable wage and decent home.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    Sounds Great!

    We would need a `Division for Assessment of Work Effort' within the Dept. of Labor.......plus, a `Division for Determination of Home Decency for Those Judged to be Working Hard Enough' within HUD.......heck, we ought to be able to create at least a few hundred thousand unionized Fed jobs to man these Divisions!

    Wonder how hard one can assess the able-bodied panhandlers who prefer his/her freedom to NOT work for anybody, to NOT take orders from anybody, to NOT staying clean, to only `work' enough to get some food, cigs, booze....?

    Don't forget, one standard of `Work' is set by tens of thousands of United Auto Workers idling in Job Banks drawing ~$100k in wages/benefits while `waiting' for the demand for American cars to come raging back!

    IMO, though soudns cold, some poverty is part and parcel of a competitive capitalist society where most people will strive to work hard, to be upwardly mobile, in order to avoid poverty since it is visible all around them! I know I use the poverty-stricken to motivate my kids to do well, to study....most non-poor parents surely do the same! Socialism has its pluses for the poor but those come at the expense of retarding the overall progress of the whole!

    IF there is NO poverty (w/Uncle Sam taking them in as full dependents), there WILL BE people who will simply not work, or not "work hard enough".....but really, even with poverty, there are still people that arn't willing to do honest work and get the aid that ARE available, like Earned income Tax Credit! Yes, true hard luck cases of hard-working folks are definitely out there and they should be helped....the difficulty has ALWAYS BEEN that fuzzy line between someone worthy of direct help and those that aren't!

    Posted by Happy at 09/02/2007 @ 11:14pm

51. ...everybody that works hard enough should have a liveable wage and decent home.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    Sounds Great!

    What about the guy who works hard to produce a buggy whip..

    ...should we gaurentee him a living wage?

    Posted by john maasch at 09/03/2007 @ 12:35am

52. How about we give him your home?

    Posted by john maasch at 09/03/2007 @ 12:42am

53. HAPPY,

    If Larry Craig is as described in this article, then my question is why would anyone vote for this clown to begin with?

    Posted by POSEIDON at 09/03/2007 @ 01:16am

54. I feel good, the whole pack of hounds after me. As Holmes would say: "that means Doctor, we are up to something they really, really don't like."

    About Uruguay, well I have visited most of Latin America, Uruguay will be more on the high end than not. And have you guys been there to lightly post that almost no one can afford a home? Exact figures I would need to dig in a little more but rate of home ownership is not that different from here.

    Happy instead raises some real valid and provoking questions. Some I do agree with, some not. First and over all: of course that any system can be abused. Of course that not all people in need are good fellows by any means...of course. But what is the greatest peril, overlook a minority that squanders the system, or the majority that needs it badly in a life or death situation. Is it only here in the US that we see that system abuse, or all over the world? Why are we so eager to see the system defects and discredit it and not the whole good of what it accomplishes?

    Are Germany, Japan or Britain our comrades in the free and capitalistic world, socialistic by any means? Why label as "socialist" any intent to just give a more human face to the system of incentives? Yet, their health systems are more inclusive, generally their unions stronger. Are we afraid that investors will go other place if we do so here? Answer is no, the US is still a huge market.

    I understand what you say, struggle in life is always hard almost anywhere. And I agree wholeheartedly about your "fuzzy line", that is true. Theory of probability says though that in any society there is intelligent and not-so-intelligent people, hard working and "mid way working". It is not that they have not tried, it is simply that some people can't make it because of the circumstances (being poor) or their own talents and shortcomings. It is simply the way the world is. I disagree with what you say: "socialism retards the overall progress of the whole". They say that Sweden is a "socialist country" ( it is not) do Swedish companies are less competitive because of the benefits of the workers? Guess what, it is the reverse. Old three Detroit big would be in their feet and running if we had had a "socialistic" unique health care system. That would had cut the burden on the companies but not to transfer the cost to the whole public but to reduce costs by eliminating middle men, HMO's, you name the parasitic load...and gain in negotiating leverage.

    You name those guys making 100K+ in benefits. I don't know if the cyphers are correct. All I know is that they were hardly needed when the industry was at its boom; they specialized and prepared to do that all their life, they invested their life. Although 100K is definitely too much, they cannot be abandoned. Would you rather prefer the Wal Mart approach of $8.5/HR no benefits? What of the two extreme options does the American worker deserve? Bottom line: if we had had in place those "socialistic options" those and many other industries were running. Making lines and privileges between companies and people ends up in those two extremes with the tendency of the latter one to be dominant now and the production capability given away (i.e China). How far are the big three of being "socialistic", but even they have spelled out what they think about the health system.

    Yes, I agree that we will always have some poverty, even in this great country, but let it be with dignity. You just don't know out of the millions you may be helping there will be an Einstein or a Mozart that society would have lost otherwise. In fact the probability would be rather high given the high number of inputs.

    About Mr. Maasch's first one, the one guy who "produces the whip". You are turning the discussion into economic principles and that is good, obviously, a job position must make economic sense. I would rebuke you with this: In the last 15 years, how much has the productivity of the US worker increased, and how much has real salary? Out of the GNP, what % went to the workers say in 1992 and how much now? Out of the GNP increase, what was the % attributable to labor. I hope I returned you your whip. Next he is asking me to give my home. That was the pearl! This is the selfish man that would not pay a penny on taxes. Put it this way, the tax you are obliged (with the sorrow of your heart) to pay for your property acknowledges the fact that even that is not completely yours and you owe to society to live in that nice neighborhood or city, whatever. I give modestly what I can, and surely would like to hear from you.

    Posted by Frank42 at 09/03/2007 @ 02:04am

55. Posted by COPROGRESSIVE 09/01/2007 @ 10:27pm

    If the Repub "leadership" forced Craig out for his acts, why haven't they forced out Vitter for his. Craig was only trying to cheat on his wive (in a mens room), but vitter had been cheating on his wive for years it seems. Where's the justice?Could it be that Craig was expendable with a Repub Governor and they would just be trading one elephant for another elephant and that with Vitter and a Dem Governor they would be trading an elephant for a donkey?

    Craig committed a crime of a different order from Vitter. The cops sent undercover officers into that bathroom because apparently it had become notorious for the kind of thing Craig was doing. And since it was a public restroom frequented by children, that placed it in a different category than Vitter. Prostitution itself is hardly something new in Washington. Far from it.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 06:31am

56. Posted by FRANK42 09/03/2007 @ 02:04am

    About Mr. Maasch's first one, the one guy who "produces the whip". You are turning the discussion into economic principles and that is good, obviously, a job position must make economic sense.

    Ah, so now in addition to the Departments of 'determining if a house is decent' and 'if a person is working hard enough' we need another Department of 'determining the economic sense of an occupation'. And don't forget, each occupation will need environmental studies to determine impact on Mother Earth! Wow, this seems like it could get complicated!

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 06:39am

57. Posted by COPROGRESSIVE 09/01/2007 @ 10:27pm

    And speaking of the theory of scandal relativity, shall we review?

    The Pittsburgh Post-Gazette's Jack Kelly has a bang-up column occasioned by the resignation of Senator Craig. Both Kelly and the Post-Gazette deserve some kind of special recognition for letting these reflections see the light of day in the hard copy of a mainstream newspaper:

    [M]edia bias is not the main reason why Republicans suffer more from scandals. Democratic voters expect Democrats to steal on their behalf. Lawmakers are judged on the basis of how many goodies from the federal treasury they can shower on their constituents. The typical Democratic voter doesn't mind terribly if their senator or congressman takes something for himself along the way. (Time Magazine's story on Rep. [Alan] Mollohan's re-election was headlined, "Pork Trumps Scandal.")

    The typical Republican voter wants his senator or congressman to keep his taxes low, his government honest. He is furious when GOP lawmakers stick their fingers in the cookie jar, or give lip service to values they do not practice.

    Republicans must be squeaky clean to win elections because their voters will crucify them for behavior Democratic voters wink at so long as the pork keeps flowing. This is why his GOP colleagues already have stripped Sen. Craig of his committee assignments, and many have called for his resignation, while Democratic senators are comfortable having among them a man who left to drown in his automobile a young woman with whom he was having an extramarital affair.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 06:53am

58. jail college Republicans

    Posted by JONES 09/02/2007 @ 8:48pm

    Needless to say, if you're serious....that makes you no better than those who took away Jose Padilla.

    If you're joking...not that funny.

    Posted by MASK 09/02/2007 @ 9:26pm

    Well, not THAT serious, for chrissakes. I means WRAP BATHROOM TISSUE AROUND THEM !! ARK ARK ARK ARK ARK ARK ARK ... lowest form of life, rounded up and given the litmus paper test (ignore brown stains and off-taste) might save repubes in the court of world opinion:

    "I AM NOT GAY AND NEVER HAVE BEEN .... "I AM NOT CROOK"...."I AM NOT A WAR CRAZED BUTT-BANGING BUSH PUSHING PSYCHOPATH, EITHER"

    I doubt it, though. Sounds more like an admission to me.

    GOPUSA! GOPUSA! GOPEE! - whee..

    right-wing repube democracy in action, you see. ^^^^^

    Posted by jones at 09/03/2007 @ 08:52am

59. everybody that works hard enough should have a liveable wage and decent home.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    nuff said.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/03/2007 @ 09:18am

60. "This is the selfish man that would not pay a penny on taxes. Put it this way, the tax you are obliged (with the sorrow of your heart) to pay for your property acknowledges the fact that even that is not completely yours and you owe to society to live in that nice neighborhood or city, whatever. I give modestly what I can, and surely would like to hear from you.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/03/2007 @ 02:04am

    If you have read me before you will know I am for a plan called, "The Fair Tax Book"...which places the emphesis on taxiong consumtion and not income. The effects on the worker of a 50 cent raise makes dems politicians feel they are doing something worthy of votes, when in reality, if one really wanted to effect workers, let them keep their entire paycheck, add exemptions for certain products and income levels and you have a revenue neuatral msystem today.

    I am not anti tax. but I am against me paying for a life style YOU thing everyone should have regardless of conditions..and YOU think it is OK to add this,

    " I give modestly what I can, and surely would like to hear from you. "

    This may be good enough for you on the left and other well meaning people...but for those of us who pay more than "modest amounts" it just sounds like another welfare state program destined to failure but make everything look good.

    ".... to pay for your property acknowledges the fact that even that is not completely yours..."

    And this gem is another entire thread, and I am sure you will find resistance from those who busted their ass to get their property that you feel is not really theirs, but some form of "the peoples property"...

    Posted by john maasch at 09/03/2007 @ 10:31am

61. Posted by CRABWALK 09/03/2007 @ 09:18am

    everybody that works hard enough should have a liveable wage and decent home.

    Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    nuff said.

    Typical mindless platitudes from the left. Define 'livable'. Define 'hard enough'. Define 'decent'. This is nothing but a prescription for slavery, swallowed whole by credulous gomers like you, CRABBIE. You want guarantees? Move to Cuba, or North Korea.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 10:51am

62. Hey Frita, how much you wanna bet dems use Vitter (DIAPER-BOY) to remind voters of Craig, Foley, Gannon, Allen, -- a multi-hypocritical stink-bomb that keeps on giving for months and months to come and for the price of a gimme... the tale wags the gop/dog.

    http://www.alternet.org/sex/57392/

    http://blogs.abcnews.com/theblotter/2006/09/exclusive_the_s.html

    http://www.oilempire.us/jeffgannon.html

    http://tinyurl.com/2rnd5k

    And there's lots more sited, proven and alleged here:

    http://quinnell.us/politics/family.html

    But just think if it eventually sticks to Giulie's 3 marriages starting with his own cousin... He's already faced adultry charges per divorces, tied to some corruption and 9/11 mismanagement. And he's the repub front runner!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 11:06am

63. Hey Pon,

    That's the problem with new con supporting/servicers to dic'tator philosophy repub's, like the sleazy addicts they are, new cons lie so much about everything, our concensual meaning of words are always relative to what greedy pitiful scheme new cons are 'working' on...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 11:13am

64. And that's only the repub anti-family sex scandals, what about all the repub anti-family greed scandals?

    http://tinyurl.com/3bnmg3

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 11:35am

65. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 11:13am

    That's the problem with new con supporting/servicers to dic'tator philosophy repub's, like the sleazy addicts they are, new cons lie so much about everything, our concensual meaning of words are always relative to what greedy pitiful scheme new cons are 'working' on...

    You're missing the point, of course. The point is that statements like these are so vague and so full of undefined terms that they boil down to meaningless truisms like 'life should be fair'. Such statements present a deceptive mode of agreement meant to ensnare credulous rubes like CRABBIE into basically agreeing to anything. It's like Barnie singing 'everyone is special, special, everyone is special...' blah blah blah it's meaningless words because if everyone is special then no one is. Typical of the meaningless blather that the left specializes in.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 11:40am

66. Yeh Pon,

    How do you explain that you're lying and can't even tell?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 12:16pm

67. Hey Frita,

    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7045631199028588216

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 12:17pm

68. the best part about this whole new chapter in conservative sleaze is the video where craig scootificates about how nasty bad and naughty my favorite president is.

    It's a classic

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 12:25pm

69. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 12:16pm

    How do you explain that you're lying and can't even tell?

    Because your head is so far up your ass you can't even bring yourself to open up a dictionary and take the time to understand what the verb 'to lie' means. In your world, everyone who tells you something you don't want to hear is 'lying'.

    This reminds me of a special on the 9/11 Truthers on the History channel that was on recently. Boy was that interesting. These guys basically start out with the premise that everyone who disputes their premise is either lying or stupid. Psychologists have a field day with this. I'd venture to say there's quite a few 9/11 Truthers here a the Nation.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 12:26pm

70. This reminds me of a special on the 9/11 Truthers on the History channel that was on recently. Boy was that interesting. These guys basically start out with the premise that everyone who disputes their premise is either lying or stupid. Psychologists have a field day with this. I'd venture to say there's quite a few 9/11 Truthers here a the Nation.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 12:26pm

    so scootificus, you spend your time enthralled by conspiracy theories?

    (what a whack job)

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 12:39pm

71. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 12:26p

    Hey Pon,

    Whether I like you or what you say has nothing to do with whether what you're saying is a lie.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 12:49pm

72. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 12:16pm

    How do you explain that you're lying and can't even tell?

    Inasmuch as the definition of 'to lie' includes as a prerequisite a conscious intent to deceive, it is impossible to lie without knowing it, thus your statement should be an indication even to your own confused mind as to the poor condition of your reasoning abilities.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 12:51pm

73. And hey Pon,

    Since you lie, you are then by definition-- a liar. It doesn't matter that you're also greedy or a sleazy new con supporter, servicer of dic'tater philosophy or that I don't like what you say.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 12:53pm

74. Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    good point.

    i lived in mexico. i made $500/month. i rented a beautiful house for $85.

    that's 17% of my income to rent.

    i live in canada. i make $2000/month. i rent a nice apartment for $600.

    that's 30% of my income.

    anecdotal yet perhaps, telling.

    it's a lot easier to be poor in mexico.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 12:53pm

75. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 12:49pm

    hey, at least scootificus gave you a reason why he lies. Again, his focus is on the poopshooticus, but let's remember that not all that long ago his focus was solely on the poopshooticus.

    That kind of mental trauma is apparently hard to shake.

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 12:56pm

76. So Pon-- you are lying about being conscious of your lying.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 12:56pm

77. Posted by FRANK42 09/02/2007 @ 10:01pm

    here ya' go FRANK41.999999999999999999999999999..............

    income distribution [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 12:57pm

78. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 12:56pm

    So Pon-- you are lying about being conscious of your lying.

    Do you even read what other people write?

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 1:00pm

79. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 06:31am

    hey, back off topic, please.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:02pm

80. Do you even read what other people write?

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:00pm

    yeah you said you lie because hsub's head is up his ass. Which is kind of funny because lying is nothing more than blowing it out yours

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:05pm

81. Pon has lied so much he believes his own lies and therefore in his own mind has greedily ascended beyond the lowly commoners wordy definition, ergo is no longer a liar... as defined.

    I guess my questioning about 'in what universe' can this or that take place, is answered.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:06pm

82. and thus your world view centered on the poopshooticus

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:06pm

83. Will,

    That is funny.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:07pm

84. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:06pm

    my favorite president wasn't impeached for lying about a blow job, he was impeached for telling the truth about one. The republicans took one look at that kind of behavior and said, "WE MUSTY CRUSH THIS ABOMINATION"

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:08pm

85. er, the part about Pon spewing it out his ass...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:09pm

86. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:00pm

    you are lying about being conscious of your lying.

    Certainly this is true of one of us.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 1:13pm

87. Posted by WILL C. 09/03/2007 @ 1:08p

    Only goes to show when a repub is against something adamantly-- check his closet carefully first; usually means the repub is repressing-- not just looking constipated.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:14pm

88. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:14pm

    Only goes to show when a repub is against something adamantly-- check his closet carefully first; usually means the repub is repressing-- not just looking constipated.

    Perhaps you can help WILL and OJ find the 'real' killer when you're done here? WILL says OJ is innocent, you know.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 1:16pm

89. Certainly this is true of one of us.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:13pm

    scootificus you are truly slow on the uptake

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:16pm

90. Perhaps you can help WILL and OJ find the 'real' killer when you're done here? WILL says OJ is innocent, you know.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:16pm

    I'm pretty sure it wasn't you scootificus. Murdering Nicole Simpson would have pulled you away from your mirror

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:19pm

91. Pon is trying the ol' triple negative lying trick where he lies about telling the truth in order not to be caught in lying when he knows only telling a half truth may redeem the rest of the lie and thus sacrifies a Pon pawn! Good try.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:19pm

92. one down

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:20pm

93. scoo pawn

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:21pm

94. Pon eats lots of Pon pawns aparently...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:22pm

95. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:19pm

    Pon is trying the ol' triple negative lying trick where he lies about telling the truth in order not to be caught in lying when he knows only telling a half truth may redeem the rest of the lie and thus sacrifies a Pon pawn! Good try.

    Boy, I see you're too smart for me. I'm just curious, are you part of the 'LIHOP' (Bush let it happen on purpose) or the 'MIHOP' (made it happen on purpose) schools of 9/11 Trutherism, BF? This is purely for research purposes.

    Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 1:23pm

96. Pon eats lots of Pon pawns aparently...

    Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:22pm

    true Scootificus has always had trouble with his B's. And then, there's his lisp

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:24pm

97. This is purely for research purposes.

    Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:23pm

    I think bush let ossama go

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:25pm

98. I don't really see how Bush could have made Ossama go. That would have required balls and all the chimp has is a cod piece.

    Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:27pm

99. At least I was thinking they're not 'straw' Pon pawns, like Frita, but scoo Pon pawns? I was wrong-- Pon eats all kinds of Pon pawns pawned off as new con Trutherisms.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:30pm

100. Will, hsuB did let all the OBL family and freinds skip town without homeland security in mind, as well pulled US troops out of Saudi's Arabia as per OBL's demands...and now hsuB's depleating our troops fighting a few 'newly' created al Qaida in Iraq, not the growing stronger old AQ that attacked us-- no wonder we haven't been attacked again by al Qaeda in the US in a while!! Wonder what else hsuB/cHeney admin are doing for OBL/AQ????

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:40pm

101. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:40pm

     You can't keep terrorizing your countrymen with tales of the boogerman...

     if you kill him

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:43pm

102. You want guarantees? Move to Cuba, or North Korea.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 10:51am

     SPOONTOOFOOCOOZ,

     YOU've got guarantees. not 100%. but guarantees. full refund--no, but guarantees.

     safe-ish streets. clean-ish air. good-ish schools. inspected-ish food. tested-ish medicines. honest-ish police. quick-ish emergency services. accurate-ish weather forecasting.

     all bought and paid for by THEE.

     what's wrong with guaranteeing-ish a decent-ish wage to provide a decent-ish life "for the people, by the people"?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:44pm

103. So OBL/AQ is hsuB's new con Pon pawn.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:47pm

104. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007

     actually, leaving saudi arabia was a good idea.

     now, if he would only get around to iraq and [insert country] and [insert country] and [insert country] and [insert country] and [insert country] and [insert country] and [insert country] ......................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:47pm

105. hsuB's new con Pon pawn pawned off as a real veal when it's really mad cow.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:48pm

106. There is one upside to the war on terror though.

     The republicans in trying to use the war on terror as a political ugly stick to continuously beat the democrats over the head and try to drive home in the minds of Americans all the hamster manufactured nonsense about democrats ability to defend the country, have done nothing more then expose their own conservative ineptitude, incompetence, pettiness, perverseness and weakness in the very things they claimed they were strong on.

     it's a beautiful thing

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:51pm

107. Mad cow chow spewed by new con Pon pawns to digest as real veal OBL/AQ.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:53pm

108. in this one way the bush administration has been great for America

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:53pm

109. it's a beautiful thing

     Posted by WILL C. 09/03/2007 @ 1:51pm

     that many people, either because of indiffence or ignorance will fail to see.

     :+[

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:54pm

110. indifference

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:54pm

111. Repubs the all round anti-family party.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:55pm

112. In what universe can people not see that the repub party is anti-USA?

     DOH!?!?!

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:56pm

113. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 1:54pm

     It matter not that others may not appreciate the actions or the effect. What matters is that the sun is setting on the American conservative movement.

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 1:57pm

114. Repubs the all round anti-family party.

     Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007

     maybe. but clinton's nafta gambling sure has upped the ante for many families around here.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 1:58pm

115. ER, Mad cow chow spewed by new con Pon pawns 'pawned off as real veal OBL/AQ.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 1:58pm

116. What matters is that the sun is setting on the American conservative movement.

     Posted by WILL C. 09/03/2007 @ 1:57pm

     yep. and it's one of those purple and pink-hued industrial sunsets. senator craig loves those ones.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 2:00pm

117. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 1:44pm

     what's wrong with guaranteeing-ish a decent-ish wage to provide a decent-ish life "for the people, by the people"?

     What's wrong with it is that neither you nor the government has the power to guarantee anything of the sort. If you did, the Soviet Union wouldn't have collapsed and people would be swimming TO Cuba instead of AWAY from it. Your guarantees are worthless, because you're spending money you never earned and don't have. You're kidding yourselves and anyone you convince to believe your phony promises.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 2:00pm

118. What's wrong with it is that neither you nor the government has the power to guarantee anything of the sort.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:00pm

     The government has the power to guarantee a minimum wage scootificus. And, is doing so as we speak.

     (which would leave you blowing it out your ass again)

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 2:04pm

119. ......because you're spending money you never earned and don't have.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:00pm

     iraq

     iraq

     IRAQ

     iraq

     iraQ!!

     IRaq

     iraq

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 2:05pm

120. maybe. but clinton's nafta gambling sure has upped the ante for many families around here.

     Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 1:58pm

     Remember that NAFTA morphed with 12 years of repub controlled congress and 7 years of hsuB/cHeney into what it was not intended to be--- just like a lot of what the new con supports, servicers of dic'tator philosophy has touched and slowly destroying.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 2:06pm

121. !!! did somebody mention Iraq?

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 2:06pm

122. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 2:05pm

     National defense is the most basic function of any state. The socialism you are asking for is not.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 2:13pm

123. Guarantee = bill of rights, er, constitution, laws?

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 2:13pm

124. National defense is the most basic function of any state. The socialism you are asking for is not.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:13pm

     provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity

     seems generic to me scootificus

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 2:17pm

125. http://tinyurl.com/3dpez5

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 2:21pm

126. National defense is the most basic function of any state. The socialism you are asking for is not.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:13pm

     youse got it, PONTIE.

     de fence is so important.

     they gonna build it to keep all them wetbakc beeners outta here. best idea since, [long pause, then cue hero music] since St. Reagan fired up them star wars weapons and zapped them commies back to the middling ages.

     Posted by MEZMORIZED 09/03/2007 @ 2:13pm | ignore this person

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 2:31pm

127. http://tinyurl.com/3dpez5

     Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 2:21pm

     dammit hsub (how does one pronounce this?)!

     i thought this link would be sumptin' sexy!!!!

     i think mr. gore is above average from the crop of dolts currently being offered y'all. best of luck.

     BTW someone should play the "mission accomplished" speech backwards, a la stairway to heaven.

     FORWARDS

     In this battle, we have fought for the cause of liberty, and for the peace of the world. Our nation and our coalition are proud of this accomplishment -- yet it is you, the members of the United States military, who achieved it. Your courage -- your willingness to face danger for your country and for each other -- made this day possible. Because of you, our nation is more secure. Because of you, the tyrant has fallen, and Iraq is free.

     BACKWARDS

     redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum, redrum

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 2:38pm

128. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 2:05pm

     youse got it, PONTIE.

     de fence is so important.

     they gonna build it to keep all them wetbakc beeners outta here. best idea since, [long pause, then cue hero music] since St. Reagan fired up them star wars weapons and zapped them commies back to the middling ages.

     Regardless of your evident contempt for the majority of America, your side lost that debate in 2004. I see you have yet to come to terms with that. moreover, your side was wrong with regard to Reagan, just as you are wrong today with the same pseudo-intellectual hubris displayed in the 80's. You're an ideological relic.

     While we're dealing with contempt, you should try viewing the world from the side of America you hate. Your devotion to a demonstrably failed ideology that in its present incarnation amounts to little more than a con game for the credulous (see: Venezuela) leaves us shaking our heads. How anyone can but laugh at someone who believes in the phony promises of the socialists after 100 years of murderous failure is a mystery to me.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 2:42pm

129. Regardless of your evident contempt for the majority of America, your side lost that debate in 2004. I see you have yet to come to terms with that. moreover, your side was wrong with regard to Reagan, just as you are wrong today with the same pseudo-intellectual hubris displayed in the 80's. You're an ideological relic.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:42pm

     2004

     the year time froze in hamsterland

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 2:45pm

130. does anyone think the conservative movement will adopt the persona of the high school football star that constantly looks back to the glory days from the living room of his single wide?

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 2:53pm

131. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 2:42pm

     SIR,

     i have no contempt for america. i have contempt for greed, violence, racism and ignorance.

     as a non-u.s.ian it is touchy for me to comment on your politics. i do so because it is more important to my family's welfare than political discussion here.

     if anyone has contempt for america, it is the 29.567% of americans who still believe the idiocies propagated by the fundamentalist right.

     alas, the slow (oh so slow) march of demographics will erase this blind obedience from the world (i.e. your great-grandkids will be brown)

     as to mr. reagan: selling advanced weapons to the iranians (yep, they still got 'em) should be telling enough as an indictment of his administration's lunacy.

     once again,

     i have nothing but respect for ALL HUMANS of good intention.

     but quite frankly, your government sucks.

     "above the people, through the people, around the people"

     the u.s. constitution (pbuh) rules!! ('cept the 2nd).

     take back your country.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 3:09pm

132. oh, by the way

     maybe there's no guest worker program for mexicans et. al. because it's CHEAPER TO PAY BELOW MINIMUM WAGE.

     the mexicans don't take anybody's job. the industries they work in desperately need them.

     and even better if you can pay them dirt.

     it's kept illegal because a lot of people make a lot of $$$$ of the backs of the wetbacks

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 3:14pm

133. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 3:09pm

     i have contempt for greed, violence, racism and ignorance.

     And this makes you unique? Do you assume everyone who disagrees with your views automatically fails to share this contempt?

     if anyone has contempt for america, it is the 29.567% of americans who still believe the idiocies propagated by the fundamentalist right.

     Circular reasoning, if you get past the non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that anyone who believes in idiocies necessarily has contempt for anything in particular. And I would agree that anyone who believes in an 'idiocy' has a problem, but I fail to see how where your statement indicates any 'indiocy' in particular that 'fundamentalist' Americans (whatever they are), much less anyone else, believes in.

     alas, the slow (oh so slow) march of demographics will erase this blind obedience from the world (i.e. your great-grandkids will be brown)

     How do you know they're not brown already?

     as to mr. reagan: selling advanced weapons to the iranians (yep, they still got 'em) should be telling enough as an indictment of his administration's lunacy.

     Whatever 'advanced' weapons Reagan sold to the Iranians lost their usefulness decades ago, so I don't see that point of this statement.

     once again,

     i have nothing but respect for ALL HUMANS of good intention.

     Meaningless platitude. Are you implying that other people don't? Or wouldn't claim the same thing?

     but quite frankly, your government sucks.

     You could be a little more specific.

     "above the people, through the people, around the people"

     Meaningless slogan.

     the u.s. constitution (pbuh) rules!! ('cept the 2nd).

     The 2nd is integral to the Constitution, inasmuch as it guarantees the life and liberty of the people. You would know this, if you read anything that our Founding Fathers wrote about it. You can no more toss out the 2nd Amendment than you can the first. Thinking that you can indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of the US Constitution.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 3:26pm

134. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 3:14pm

     oh, by the way

     maybe there's no guest worker program for mexicans et. al. because it's CHEAPER TO PAY BELOW MINIMUM WAGE.

     It may be.

     the mexicans don't take anybody's job. the industries they work in desperately need them.

     I agree. But remember, in America, there's at least as many Democrats as Republicans who are anti-illegal. It's much more bi-partisan than you seem to think.

     and even better if you can pay them dirt.

     Which is a hell of a lot more than they make in the quasi-socialist country they are running from.

     it's kept illegal because a lot of people make a lot of $$$$ of the backs of the wetbacks

     I disagree with that. It's kept illegal because politicians don't want cheap labbor flooding the country. It's happening anyway, but nobody wants to officially sanction it. Personally, I think the Mexicans are good for our country, by and large. My grandfather was an immigrant, why should I hate immigrants?

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 3:31pm

135. By the way, if you want to talk about idiocies, check out SHUBFOOL's post on my 'lying without knowing it' above. Or was it 'lying about not knowing I was lying'? Definitely, SB is a product of our public school system.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 3:40pm

136. And this makes you unique? Do you assume everyone who disagrees with your views automatically fails to share this contempt?

     ....just saying i have contempt for hateful people, not specifically americans...........

     Circular reasoning, if you get past the non-sequitur. It doesn't follow that anyone who believes in idiocies necessarily has contempt for anything in particular. And I would agree that anyone who believes in an 'idiocy' has a problem, but I fail to see how where your statement indicates any 'indiocy' in particular that 'fundamentalist' Americans (whatever they are), much less anyone else, believes in.

     ........thanks for the correction. should say "fundamentalist christians who want to turn america into a theocracy". don't blame the sheep....................

     How do you know they're not brown already?

     .......... i had thought about that, but went ahead with the statement anyway. my kid's brown. if your kid is brown, good luck to him........................

     Meaningless platitude. Are you implying that other people don't? Or wouldn't claim the same thing?

     .........said because i feel no contempt for americans, per se.........

     You could be a little more specific.

     .........KATRINA, IRAQ, WARRANTLESS SPYING, MINDLESS "TERROR ALERTS", INACTION ON GLOBAL CLIMATE F#$K UP (list compiled in 0.003 seconds--click here for more results).............

     Whatever 'advanced' weapons Reagan sold to the Iranians lost their usefulness decades ago, so I don't see that point of this statement.

     ........well al-qaeda put a big hole in the U.S.S. Cole using somewhat less advanced weapon systems.................

     Meaningless slogan.

     ..........21st century version of mr. lincoln's (pbuh) meaningful slogan "that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth................

     The 2nd is integral to the Constitution, inasmuch as it guarantees the life and liberty of the people. You would know this, if you read anything that our Founding Fathers wrote about it. You can no more toss out the 2nd Amendment than you can the first. Thinking that you can indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of the US Constitution.

     ..........yep assault rifles guarantee life and liberty. it's o.k. even founding fathers make mistakes--ever heard of the electoral college?.............................

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 3:52pm

137. Hey Pon,

     hsuB is failing like Iraq and is dragging St. Ronald down to before pre-Iraq war numbers; soon to have Bill and JFK ahead of him again. HsuB to be one with Nixon in more ways that one... soon.

     USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-11, 2007. N=1,006 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

     "Who do you regard as the greatest United States president?"

     _____________2/9-11/07__2/05__11/03 _4/03

     Abraham Lincoln _____18 ___14 ___17 ___15

     Ronald Reagan ______16 ___ 20 ___13 ___10

     John Kennedy _______14 ___12 ___17 ___13

     Bill Clinton __________13 ___15 ____9 ___11

     Franklin Roosevelt_____9 ___ 12___ 11____9

     George Washington ___ 7____ 5 ____7____ 7

     Harry Truman ________3 ____2 ____3 ____4

     Theodore Roosevelt ___2 ____2____ 3 ____2

     Dwight Eisenhower_____2 ___ 1 ____2 ____1

     Thomas Jefferson _____ 2 ___ 2 ____3 ____2

     Jimmy Carter ________ 2 ____3 ____3 ____3

     George W. Bush ____ 2____5____3 __ 11

     Gerald Ford _________ 1 ____ - ____- ____ -

     George H. W. Bush____ 1 ____1 ____2 ____2

     Richard Nixon _______ - ____ 1 ____1 ____1

     Other ______________ 1 ____1 ____2 ____2

     None _______________1 ____1 ____- ____1

     No opinion __________ 6 ____3 ____4 ____6

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 3:58pm

138. Which is a hell of a lot more than they make in the quasi-socialist country they are running from.

     how could it not be a mess after 73 years of one-party rule supported by american GOVERNMENT (don't want any mix-ups here) meddling (can't have no commies right next door)

     I disagree with that. It's kept illegal because politicians don't want cheap labbor flooding the country. It's happening anyway, but nobody wants to officially sanction it. Personally, I think the Mexicans are good for our country, by and large. My grandfather was an immigrant, why should I hate immigrants?

     oh yes they do. somebody has to clean the toilets on capitol hill. they just can't say it out loud. illegal=cheap.

     thanks,

     FZ

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 4:01pm

139. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 3:58pm

     Couple of interesting points there, SHUBBY. I see Reagan ranks right under Lincoln, are you endorsing this? I think this would be news to our friend FROSTY here. Also, how come you never post the approval ratings of Congress? Surely you know that they're well below Bush's? Or are you forgetting that?

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 4:01pm

140. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 3:58pm

     ¿what? clinton's above FDR.

     USA Today/Gallup Poll. Feb. 9-11, 2007. N=1,006 peyote-ingesting adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 4:04pm

141. Posted by HSUBFOOLS 09/03/2007 @ 1:19pm

     Boy, I see you're too smart for me.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 1:23pm

     By the way, if you want to talk about idiocies, check out SHUBFOOL's post... Definitely, SB is a product of our public school system.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 3:40pm

     Pon, sorry about your education. Must be a new con Pon pawn thing.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 4:09pm

142. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 4:01pm

     i see reagan's star has risen muchly since '03.

     he was 5th, behind George W. Bush (if only he could start a new war--then he'd be up at the top again).

     i think this is because nostalgia rarely remembers the bad stuff, only the good. think back to high school--getting laid, friends, parties; not homework and exams.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 4:11pm

143. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 4:01pm

     Which is a hell of a lot more than they make in the quasi-socialist country they are running from.

     how could it not be a mess after 73 years of one-party rule supported by american GOVERNMENT (don't want any mix-ups here) meddling (can't have no commies right next door)

     Yep, there's that same 'heads I win, tails you lose' philosophy we've come to know so well in the America-hating left. How can you say you don't hate America when you blame it for every bad thing that happens in the world? We know this syndrome quite well here in America, it's one reason why nobody listens to your ilk here. Everyone blames Cuba's problems on America, too, and when Venezuela collapses, it'll no doubt be our fault too.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 4:33pm

144. Dems in congress still poll a lot better than repubs in congress. That is what you're talking about right...:

     Congress: Misc. Questions See also: Government and Politics (corruption) | Problems and Priorities Polls listed chronologically.

     CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Aug. 6-8, 2007. N=approx. 500 adults nationwide. MoE ± 4.5.

     "Do you have more confidence in President Bush or in the Democrats in Congress to deal with the major issues facing the country today?"

     Date________Bush _Dems __Both __Neither __Unsure

     8/6-8/07 ______35 ___48 ____3 _____12 ______2

     11/17-19/06 ___33 ___54 ____2 ______8 ______3

     XXXXxxxxXXXXxxxxXXXXxxxXXxx

     Pew Research Center for the People & the Press survey conducted by Schulman, Ronca & Bucuvalas. July 25-29, 2007. N=1,503 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3. Prior surveys conducted by Princeton Survey Research Associates International.

     "Are you happy or unhappy that the Democratic Party won control of Congress in last November's election?"

     _______________Happy __ Unhappy _Unsure

     7/25-29/06_______50 _______35 ______15

     XXXXXXxxxxxXXxxxxXXxxxXXxx

     Generic Congressional Vote

     _____Poll _________Date ______Repub ___Dem __Spread

     RCP Average __06/22 - 07/18 ___39.3%__ 49.0%___9.7%

     Battleground __ 07/15 - 07/18 ___40% ___48% ____8%

     Rasmussen ___ 07/16 - 07/17 ___37% ___46% ____9%

     CNN _________06/22 - 06/24 ___ 41%___ 53% ___ 12%

     And yes before you ask- Pon pawn, the congressional repub task is one of obstructioinists to any progressive leg that might get our troops out of Iraq or fixing anything that allows for new con corporate profiteering off of death and misery with our tax dollars. And the reason repubs are bailing, resigning and/or forced to; '08 will see more repub defeat all round, big time.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 4:35pm

145. And this gem is another entire thread, and I am sure you will find resistance from those who busted their ass to get their property that you feel is not really theirs, but some form of "the peoples property"...

     Posted by JOHN MAASCH 09/03/2007 @ 10:31am

     Not that I don't feel exactly as you describe about my property, but just try not paying those property taxes.

     (If you do, send me your address and the phone number for your county's clerk of court). ;o)

     Eric

     Posted by Malcontent at 09/03/2007 @ 4:58pm

146. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 4:33pm

     ERRRRRRRRRRRRRR (said with much frustration)

     I DON'T HATE AMERICA

     your government does not equal america.

     no government represents its people.

     AMERICA IS EXCELLENT

     ........corn-bread biscuits, jazz, rock and roll, medicine after medicine, the light bulb.....................

     YOUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT YOU. IT REPRESENTS .001% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY LIVE. SO DOES MINE. SO DOES LRJONES'.

     YOU CAN VOTE AND TALK AND TALK AND VOTE, BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO THE NITTY-GRITTY, YOU ARE NOTHING TO THESE PEOPLE.

     I love americans. they have invited me, a total stranger, into their homes for apple pie and ice-cream. they have help fix my car when i was stranded on the highway. they have taught me music, literature, art, science and history.

     don't just hear my words, please listen to me.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 5:05pm

147. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 3:52pm

     KATRINA, IRAQ, WARRANTLESS SPYING, MINDLESS "TERROR ALERTS", INACTION ON GLOBAL CLIMATE F#$K UP (list compiled in 0.003 seconds--click here for more results).............

     What about Katrina? Are you blaming him for the hurricane? Or what?

     The war in Iraq was the major campaign issue, and it was debated extensively here in the US. Very few politicians in the Democratic Party opposed the war in Iraq before it started, and in fact most of them voted specifically FOR it. What are you blaming Bush for and not the Democrats?

     The warrantless spying program was just approved and extended by a Democratic Congress...what's your beef specifically about Bush here that you are not blaming on Congress as well?

     Inaction on global climate? Clinton and Gore both refused to submit the Kyoto treaty to Congress, knowing it did not stand a chance. Polls show that most Americans do not believe that global warming is a major issue...what are you blaming Bush for, specifically that you are not blaming others for?

     Whatever 'advanced' weapons Reagan sold to the Iranians lost their usefulness decades ago, so I don't see that point of this statement.

     ........well al-qaeda put a big hole in the U.S.S. Cole using somewhat less advanced weapon systems.................

     And so?

     The 2nd is integral to the Constitution, inasmuch as it guarantees the life and liberty of the people. You would know this, if you read anything that our Founding Fathers wrote about it. You can no more toss out the 2nd Amendment than you can the first. Thinking that you can indicates your fundamental misunderstanding of the US Constitution.

     ..........yep assault rifles guarantee life and liberty. it's o.k. even founding fathers make mistakes--ever heard of the electoral college?.............................

     First you said your problem was with the 2nd Amendment, now you say it's with assault rifles? Which is it? And can you even define what an 'assault rifle' is, and what distinguishes it from a 'non-assault rifle'? I doubt it.

     As for the electoral college, it was put in place in the late 1700's for a specific reason that was very needful in terms of getting less populous states to sign off on the Constitution and join the Union. Saying the founding fathers screwed up THEN because you find it inconvenient NOW (or more accurately, because it cost the left ONE election 8 years ago) is more than just a little silly and intellectually dishonest. You can be sure that if the electoral college had cost the Republicans an election instead of the Democrats, the left would be calling it the best thing since sliced bread (check out the left's stance on the filibuster in the last 16 years if you doubt this).

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 5:11pm

148. ..........yep assault rifles guarantee life and liberty. it's o.k. even founding fathers make mistakes--ever heard of the electoral college?.............................

     Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 3:52pm

     I am always amazed by the way so many on the 'left' complain about the 'right', not following all of the constitution. Only to try to exclude one of the ammendments, on the next page.

     The second ammendment is important. (As are the 1st and 4th, 'righties').

     I am a liberal. I do own a shotgun (was my grandfathers). Hasn't been fired in decades (not sure when, not by me). I generally don't like guns, don't really want one (as a weapon). Additionally, some folks who love their guns...well, they worry me.

     None of this has to to do with the two most important issues;

     One: The constitution is our founding document. One can ill afford to complain that their political adversaries are not following one part of the document....and then offhandedly discard other parts of it. It is either all relevant, or it's relevancy is a poor argument, in any dispute.

     Two: I don't hunt (Prefer my meat on little styrofoam trays). I don't read the second ammentment as protecting my right to hunt. Nor do I read it as protecting my right to protect my property (although I believe I have that right). It specifically states that a well armed populace is necessary to our security. But, I also read between the lines, that necessary for the security of a "free nation", implies I need to be ready to keep my government from oppressing "the people" too.

     Like I said, I'm not big on guns. And you can argue amongst yourself about what types should be available. But I am glad there are enough guns in non-governmental hands, to (attempt, anyway)to repel our government too.

     Eric

     Posted by Malcontent at 09/03/2007 @ 5:13pm

149. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 5:05pm

     your government does not equal america.

     no government represents its people.

     It doesn't? Then what are those elections for every couple of years?

     AMERICA IS EXCELLENT

     YOUR GOVERNMENT DOES NOT REPRESENT YOU. IT REPRESENTS .001% OF THE WORLD'S POPULATION, REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY LIVE. SO DOES MINE. SO DOES LRJONES'.

     YOU CAN VOTE AND TALK AND TALK AND VOTE, BUT WHEN IT COMES DOWN TO THE NITTY-GRITTY, YOU ARE NOTHING TO THESE PEOPLE.

     I love americans. they have invited me, a total stranger, into their homes for apple pie and ice-cream. they have help fix my car when i was stranded on the highway. they have taught me music, literature, art, science and history.

     don't just hear my words, please listen to me.

     I hear you, I just don't agree with everything you're saying.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/03/2007 @ 5:14pm

150. don't just hear my words, please listen to me.

     Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/03/2007 @ 5:05pm

     You're talking to a hamster. He's just waiting for you to stop typing so he can dazzle you with more dogma

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 5:16pm

151. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 5:11pm

     love to keep goin' but it's barbecue time.

     thanks so much,

     it's been fun

     FZ

     BTW your congress sucks. my parliament sucks. the government of cuba sucks. gordon brown's whole deal sucks. and so on.

     we need something to prevent anarchy. but what we've got is so damn frustrating.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/03/2007 @ 5:16pm

152. hey check it out, scootificus thinks we are blaming bush for a hurricane.

     and not the really retarded, limp wristed conservative action taken after the hurricane struck

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 5:19pm

153. Our government were people once; it's our responsibility to remind them that this government is ours, 'we the people' and not inanimate bottom-liner profiteering corporations'.

     Going all medievall on their ass seems to do the trick every time. People are starting to catch on to the repub lie machine that's turning up the heat, shrinking the middle class, while seeing us boil in the pot saying-- naw that's not really happening. Global heating is an excellent real metaphor.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 5:24pm

154. Yep speaking of heat-- BBQ time it is. Adios.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2007 @ 5:27pm

155. fellas (and mask) our government is giving us exactly what we wished for.

     Posted by Will C. at 09/03/2007 @ 5:28pm

156. At least Craig slurping references to naughtiness made him sound flamboyant.

     Perhaps "slurping" is a characterization to be avoided in this particular case?

     Posted by chinpoko at 09/03/2007 @ 10:41pm

157. The fact that Craig is a non-entity is a sad indictment of our the crushing mediocrity of elected representatives as a whole. The Senate - which gives as much power to Idaho as it does to Illinois, and as much to Nebraska as it does to New York - is at the heart of this problem. It's interesting to note that during his resignation speech, Craig made no mention of his service to the country, only to his fellow Idahoans. His parochialism is just stunning for a United States senator.

     Posted by coolrebel at 09/04/2007 @ 12:56am

158. Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/03/2007 @ 10:51am

     move to nigeria, where labor is run your way.

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/04/2007 @ 07:19am

159. Sure would be neat to read how fighting in Iraq has strengthened our "national defense".

     More fantasies of Pontificus the utopian dreamer, meanwhile he thinks lower wages strengthen America.

     what a nutter.

     Posted by crabwalk at 09/04/2007 @ 07:25am

160. please read [tinyurl.com]

     god help us.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/04/2007 @ 08:05am

161. Why any Idahoan, regardless of political affiliation, would keep someone in office who consistently voted to open up the land to pollution and corporate interests beats me.

     I thought most people who lived in Idaho are proud of the fact that they can live, hunt, fish etc. in a clean environment.

     Posted by habiba at 09/04/2007 @ 12:48pm

162. I thought most people who lived in Idaho are proud of the fact that they can live, hunt, fish etc. in a clean environment.

     Posted by HABIBA 09/04/2007 @ 12:48pm

     well the human is the only animal dumb enough to destroy the forest so he can make some money and buy a tv and watch programs about forests.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/04/2007 @ 12:53pm

163. ID has a diverse populous. Many of us love the outdoors, we backpack, backcountry ski, do it all human-powered, take only photos and leave only footprints. Unfortunately, we are the minority. Most Idahoans wouldn't consider going outdoors unless they are dragging a huge camper-trailer and ATVs and generally only do that when it is the appointed season to shoot some four-legged creature.

     Posted by dbinid at 09/04/2007 @ 2:43pm

164. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 09/04/2007 @ 12:53pm

     How true! ;D

     Posted by DBINID 09/04/2007 @ 2:43pm

     Nice to get the scoop straight from an Idahoan! I only know one person who grew up in ID and at this point considers herself more of a Californian-- she said that a lot of people moved into her old neighborhood, renovated the smaller houses until they resembled McMansions which jacked up the property rates and pissed the more settled inhabitants off. I'd forgotten about her telling me this until your comment-- sounds like the same mentality. I have difficulty reconciling that with the stereotype of survivalists populating the country and the gorgeous photos I've seen of Idaho landscape.

     Posted by habiba at 09/04/2007 @ 4:51pm

165. Posted by CRABWALK 09/04/2007 @ 07:25am

     Sure would be neat to read how fighting in Iraq has strengthened our "national defense".

     I think it's pretty evident that subsequent to 9/11, Bush's defense of this country has been virtually perfect. This stands in marked contrast to the fecklessness of the Clinton Administration. But don't let my facts get in the way of your fantasy.

     More fantasies of Pontificus the utopian dreamer, meanwhile he thinks lower wages strengthen America.

     It's only utopian dreamers like yourself that think they can fix wages to any level they want, CRABBIE, simply by passing some law. That sort of thing worked out real well for Detroit, huh? More power of projection, I see. Certainly a useful if predictable trait in a narcissistic, unreconstructed liberal.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/04/2007 @ 11:05pm

166. Hey, guys, don't look now but Senator Craig is reconsidering his resignation. Seems shame no longer exists in Washington these days. I'm sure Bill Clinton and his army of knee-pad-clad admirers (of whom there are many on this site) had a lot to do with building that ethos. You all should congratulate yourselves, you've earned it.

     Posted by pontificus at 09/04/2007 @ 11:07pm

167. I think it's pretty evident that subsequent to 9/11, Bush's defense of this country has been virtually perfect. This stands in marked contrast to the fecklessness of the Clinton Administration. But don't let my facts get in the way of your fantasy.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/04/2007 @ 11:05pm

     did you ever stop to think that this global jihad bizniz is just a bunch of nonsense to scare the bejeezuz out of people and sell a whole bunch of stuff for defense contractors scrambling to make billions after the soviet boogeyman disappeared?

     remember the "war on drugs"--didn't work. americans love drugs too much (thanks, afghanistan!) just bs to sell weapons.

     well the jihadist movement just might become a self-fulfilling prophecy. and if you attack iran, watch out (and forget about gas--$6.00/gallon)

     Posted by frosty zoom at 09/04/2007 @ 11:18pm

168. I think it's pretty evident that subsequent to 9/11, Bush's defense of this country has been virtually perfect. This stands in marked contrast to the fecklessness of the Clinton Administration. But don't let my facts get in the way of your fantasy.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS 09/04/2007 @ 11:05pm

     At least until they need another attack. Of course, Clinton did fail to protect this country against the greatest threat to its continued existence since the Third Reich - and it's not a Middle Eastern organized crime outfit. It's the bunch of fascists who seized this government and, at the very least, stood back and let an attack happen on 9/11. Oh, and Ponti, when Clinton tried to conduct foreign and intelligence policy, you people tried to insist that he had no right to do so, that he was trying to divert attention away from your voyeurism. But, since you seem to favor Bush's imperial ambitions, I'll ask you what I've asked others of your persuasion before - when are you enlisting and volunteering to join the occupation? If you're not, then, other than cowardice, why not? It's your war - at least have the balls and the common decency to go fight it.

     Posted by jmusolino at 09/05/2007 @ 02:06am

169. Wow, multiple-choiced Rove's clone Craig wants to have it all. Now he wants to stay! Stay on, Larry. The cons and the neocons just love you dear. One Senate seat is too many, morale nothwithstanding. ----------

     Craig Said to Consider Not Resigning

     By CARL HULSE and WILLIAM YARDLEY Published: September 5, 2007 WASHINGTON, Sept. 4 -- Senator Larry E. Craig of Idaho opened the door Tuesday to returning to the Senate, creating another twist in his unfolding political drama and raising the possibility of an ugly showdown with national Republican leaders.

     Posted by Helen DAO at 09/05/2007 @ 03:48am

170. Posted by JMUSOLINO 09/05/2007 @ 02:06am

     At least until they need another attack.

     Hmmm...when you say 'they' are you speaking of the Carlisle Group, who bombed the World Trade Center in order to facilitate the PNAC? Or is it the Trilateral Commission? You one of those conspiracy theorists? Quick, let me get some popcorn. Go on, are you one of those aspiring metallurgists who, like Rosie O'Donnell, can proudly state that 'everyone knows that fire doesn't melt steel'? God, I love conspiracy theories! Tell me more!

     Of course, Clinton did fail to protect this country against the greatest threat to its continued existence since the Third Reich - and it's not a Middle Eastern organized crime outfit. It's the bunch of fascists who seized this government and, at the very least, stood back and let an attack happen on 9/11. Oh, and Ponti, when Clinton tried to conduct foreign and intelligence policy, you people tried to insist that he had no right to do so, that he was trying to divert attention away from your voyeurism. But, since you seem to favor Bush's imperial ambitions, I'll ask you what I've asked others of your persuasion before - when are you enlisting and volunteering to join the occupation? If you're not, then, other than cowardice, why not? It's your war - at least have the balls and the common decency to go fight it.

     God you're funny. Bush is 'imperial'? Are you saying that Bush will refuse to leave office when his term is done? Does it ever trouble you that by your definition of the term, EVERY President you don't like is a 'fascist'? Do you know that you're a raving idiot?

     Posted by pontificus at 09/05/2007 @ 04:37am

171. Posted by HELEN DAO 09/05/2007 @ 03:48am

     Wow, multiple-choiced Rove's clone Craig wants to have it all. Now he wants to stay! Stay on, Larry. The cons and the neocons just love you dear. One Senate seat is too many, morale nothwithstanding. ----------

     Must be something about the early morning hours that brings out the moonbats. Just curious, sweetie, how Craig became a 'multiple-choiced Rove clone', and what that term is supposed to mean? Also, I'm interested to know how Craig can be a 'Rove-clone' and still be at war with the Republican Party?

     Posted by pontificus at 09/05/2007 @ 04:40am

172. Hey, guys, don't look now but Senator Craig ☼ is reconsidering his resignation. Seems shame no longer exists in Washington these days. I'm sure Bill Clinton and his army of knee-pad-clad admirers (of whom there are many on this site) had a lot to do with building that ethos. You all should congratulate yourselves, you've earned it.

     Posted by PONTIFICUS

     At least Bill was "getting" a blow job.

     Posted by mtspence05 at 09/05/2007 @ 09:53am

173. Craig can always pull a "Bill" and admit he did it but claim he failed to swallow.

     Posted by mtspence05 at 09/05/2007 @ 6:09pm