The Beat

Another World Is Possible; Another U.S.A. is Necessary

posted by John Nichols on 06/30/2007 @ 12:41am

ATLANTA -- The political discussion in the United States is, for the most part, disappointing -- not merely because it is too ideologically and intellectually narrow but also because it is too backward in focus.

Instead of imagining what might be, contemporary politicians spend most of their time talking, at best, about treating existing wounds to the body politic and, at worst, about "threats" that no longer exist. In the former category, place all the Democratic and Republican politicians who promise a "new direction" with regard to the Iraq quagmire but never get around to rejecting the neo-conservative -- or more precisely, neo-colonial -- policies that got us into the mess in the first place. In the latter category, place all the partisans who suggest that the problem with our health-care system is too much government involvement -- which is a little like claiming that the problem with a headache is too much aspirin.

At a certain point, you just want to say: "Get over it! At a point when only one in five Americans think the country is headed in the right direction, isn't it time we changed course?"

That's the message of the thousands of Americans who have gathered in Atlanta in recent days for the U.S. Social Forum.

Modeled on the World Social Forums initiated by the South American left, which have brought together activists from every corner of the planet to strategize about organizing across border to promote fundamental change -- ending poverty, addressing environmental threats, rejecting war and genocide as responses to conflict -- the U.S. Social Forum says radical reform is both a realistic goal and a reasonable one.

It adopts the World Social Forum mantra: "Another World Is Possible."

And it adds an essential second line: "Another U.S.A. Is Necessary."

As the diverse range of peace and social justice groups that have organized the U.S. Social Forum recognize, only when the U.S. becomes a more responsible player will the planet become a more functional and humane place. This is not a matter of blaming the U.S. for everything that ails the world; there is plenty of blame to go around. Rather, the point is a positive one: By making the United States live up its founding promises of democracy, respect for the rule of law and avoidance of entangling alliances, this country can both lead by example and by the practice of respecting the right of others for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

There is a good deal of optimism on display in Atlanta this weekend. But it is an optimism rooted in bitter experience. Activists like the Liberty Tree Foundation for the Democratic Revolution's Ben Manski have long track records of battling against empire, injustice and environmental degradation. They know how hard it is to change the course of American politics and governing.

Yet, they believe that the American people, if freed to shape the country of their desires rather than their fears, would make the U.S. a better player on the planet. In other words, they argue that America is not the sum of George Bush and Dick Cheney. Rather, it should be the expression of the best insti of three hundred million basically decent people who, given an opportunity, would opt for peace, fairness, equality and sustainability.

Manski, the executive director of Liberty Tree, has played a critical role in developing the U.S. Social Forum's "Democracy Track," a series of events designed to get people thinking about how to renew and extend citizen participation in decision making at the local, state and federal levels. As a participant in several of the plenaries, I've been genuinely impressed with the seriousness of everyone involved to, as Manski puts it, "build a democracy movement for the U.S.A."

There is no question of the need for such a movement. Our electoral processes are a shambles, as evidenced by the dubious results of the last two presidential elections. Our campaign finance system is a crime. Our media aids and abets all that afflicts the nation. And working families find it harder and harder to make their voices heard on the job, in the school or in the community. The crisis is clear. What's exciting about the U.S. Social Forum is that the solutions -- fundamental structural and policy changes in foreign and domestic policies, rather than tinkers around the edges -- are coming into focus.

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John Nichols's book The Rise and Rise of Richard B. Cheney: Unlocking the Mysteries of the Most Powerful Vice President in American History (The New Press) is available nationwide at independent bookstores and at www.amazon.com. Publisher's Weekly describes it as "a Fahrenheit 9/11 for Cheney" and Esquire magazine says it "reveals the inner Cheney." The London Review of Books says The Rise and Rise of Richard B. Cheney "makes a persuasive case…that the vice-presidency is the real locus of power in the current administration: Cheney runs the show."

Comments (116)

  1. worker and parasite...

    nice piece.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 06/30/2007 @ 03:02am

  2. "Modeled on the World Social Forums initiated by the South American left, which have brought together activists from every corner of the planet to strategize about organizing across border to promote fundamental change .."

    Freedom loving South American leaders for change...like Chavez? Castro? All the leftist in power in SA history always seem to start out the same..people are in revolution to throw out the current "corrupt incompetents", then nationalize the entire economic base, close down opposition news papers, drive out the international capiatl,and the country sinks into economic morass...with a dictator/president elected for life...

    Not intersted in the "World Social Anything" for a new USA..I can only imagine the kooks and koons at this meeting...Any model in South America anyone can point to as a model of success?

    I can't find one either....may be the FORUM should focus all their energy on finding a new MEXICO..the current one seems to be in need of a major overhaul.

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 03:06am

  3. Nichols:

    What's exciting about the U.S. Social Forum is that the solutions -- fundamental structural and policy changes in foreign and domestic policies, rather than tinkers around the edges -- are coming into focus.

    Let's hope.

    In any case, I appreciate the fact that John Nichols is on point with his posts of late.

    In a society that is virtually supersaturated with mass media messages that are scientifically designed to massage our naturally selfish egos, the quintessential question of the day is how can we transcend this weight of willfull ignorance?

    It's as if the collective mind of our human society is behaving like an individual who is vaguely aware that something existentially resuscitating is just beyond the grasp of consciousness, but cannot quite tune in to the right frequency to pick up the signal.

    At the moment, the smallest turns of the dial in the right direction involve the simple acknowledgment of the fact that our American body politic is in critical condition and needs to be relieved of the bloodsucking condition of corporate corruption that is draining its lifeblood.

    Let's hope that we can collectively tune in to the proper channel amidst the sea of static that has us so completely snowed under.

    Posted by b_kool_66 at 06/30/2007 @ 04:25am

  4. Seriously, friends on the Left....

    HOW MANY times since 1965 have you claimed we are "on the verge of a Revolution"? Bobby Kennedy campaign? Gene McCarthy? McGovern campaign? Carter election? "After the people tire of Reaganism"? Clinton election? 2006 Congressionals? Now?

    Posted by Mask at 06/30/2007 @ 08:01am

  5. Posted by MASK 06/30/2007 @ 08:01am

    They have to announce another verge...if they don't the masses will never know they are in for a change!!!!...or and to let them know the last chasnge(Reaganism and conservatism) was bad for them..despite the eveidence..

    Jusy curious,tho,should Thompson win the WH and the Congress slip back into the hands of the GOPers...what kind of "verge of revolution" will it be called?

    ...and one last question, or ponderance, why is it all these people who are pushing for a "verge of revolution" never get elected on their grand ideas at the ballot box? And are only heralded at places like "World Social Forums", whatever that is, and no one knows they had a meeting in the back of a convention center somewhere, in between the concrete producers and the electronic show?

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 09:28am

  6. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 06/30/2007 @ 09:27am

    I came to the same conclusion, and was deeply disappointed when I found out that Roger Smith met with Moore a few times and that part was "forgot to be mentioned " in Roger and ME, which I liked, until I was frauded..

    Frank will never understand,he spends to much time with Limbaugh...

    Moore is a fraud..

    Did you catch any of the pandering that went on in the beg-a-thon for Liberal Black voters by the Dem crowd? Patheic, all Americans should have been made to watch that "show"... for if they did watch, the dems would never hold office again for years..

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 09:33am

  7. Yep, when the mass media produces noise that the masses are addicted to, the reality outside noise-box tends to get skewed and/or obscured; not cured.

    I always find it refreshing to be out in the community. My fellow inhabitants of this planet are a lot different than the 'reality-noise' on the tube, described by either talking heads, politicians, dramas, news, etc. People outside the tube make it a lot more immediate to evaluate concerns and solutions that we can all live with and more willing to pay for.

    Ultimately the mass media noise has become a giant commercial always attempting to squeese another sell out of us by a multinational corporation and little to do with making the world a better place for us and our neighbors to live in and meet.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 06/30/2007 @ 09:40am

  8. How can you tell a politician (multinational corporation) is trying to sell you something-- they don't ask you questions, they tell you what to think...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 06/30/2007 @ 10:24am

  9. Just found this curious-- concerning what we the people think:

    CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. June 22-24, 2007. N=1,029 adults nationwide.

    "Do you think it is good for the country or bad for the country that the Democratic Party is in control of Congress?" Half sample, MoE ± 4.5

    Date________Good____Bad___Neither___Unsure

    6/22-24/07____57 _____31______7_______5

    5/4-6/07______51 _____37______9_______3

    Posted by hsuBfools at 06/30/2007 @ 10:30am

  10. .I can only imagine the kooks and koons at this meeting...

    what the hell is this? are you adding racism to your repertoire? shame, shame shame.unbelievable, really. don't make me ashamed of being your friend.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 11:04am

  11. You guys seem to believe that government and talk radio and "corporate media" dictate views and that the zombies in the population just accepts these views as their own.

    Watch out! Iraq has nookyular programs, 20,000 litres of anthrax, missiles that can make it to the US!! We will bring democracy to Iraq in months, maybe weeks, certainly not years.

    Illegal felons will get Amnesty !!! Islamic terrorists will come through Tijuana!! Carrying venereal disease!!

    If the shoe fits....

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 11:24am

  12. NICHOLS: ....This is not a matter of blaming the U.S. for everything that ails the world; there is plenty of blame to go around.

    On its face, this Nichol's statement is palatable. Underneath, I wonder?????

    I have a challenge to those who question the Rights' dominant view of the Left as the "blaming the U.S. for everything that ails the world" FIRST crowd!

    Can some long-term posters/readers, not just MASK, point to say, two articles, among any of the dozen+ TN writers in the past 1 year, that took a hard look at "Another" existing world/country that is further along the Socialist path that the US should emulate....something that says, country X is doing this Y mostly correctly but needs some work along the Z line......

    The universe of TN articles in this past year is probably 1,000+....dum, dum..... dum, dum.....dum, dum...dum...dum...dum....Mr. Phillips, If you should decide to undertake this mission......

    Posted by Happy at 06/30/2007 @ 11:35am

  13. They don't enjoy the Democrats experimenting on them with their utopian fantasies

    Thats right, they hate Social Security , Medicare, clean air and water, workplace safety, maternal leave, paid vacations, unleaded gas, lead-free paint, child labor laws, the ability to divorce and re-marry, women hate to vote, as do African Americans. People despise being told their rights when getting arrested and having to be treated like human beings without sticks rammed into their privates.

    Americans hate that our military is desegregated and women are allowed to serve. We don't enjoy boating on lakes that are relatively free of petrochemicals and ammonium nitrate run-off. Americans get really upset when they see that contaminated food is re-called and sources tracked.

    God damn liberals!!!!

    whereas Americans love being bogged down in the Me, privatization of Soc Sec and high fuel prices.

    Darin, you are so ill informed you are deluded. Read a history book. And not one packed full of symbolic prophecies' and stolen mythos.

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 11:36am

  14. Posted by HAPPY 06/30/2007 @ 11:35am

    Another case of myopia, seeing only what one wants to see? Perhaps you missed the articles on SICKO and Europe's healthcare system?

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 11:40am

  15. system-S. Plural.

    why can't we take what works and set aside what doesn't?

    Because Aetna don't like no boat rockin'.

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 11:41am

  16. Perhaps you missed SICKO and Europe's healthcare system?

    Posted by CRABWALK 06/30/2007 @ 11:40am

    Unless I am mistaken, though I have no plans to see the film, SICKO is an outright attack on OUR health system and NOT a critical look/study of a more `progressive' country's helathcare system. As usual, your typical CRAB!

    Posted by Happy at 06/30/2007 @ 11:45am

  17. Thats right, they hate Social Security....

    Posted by CRABWALK 06/30/2007 @ 11:36am

    Black folks ought to "hate Social Security"!

    According to Nat'l Center for Health Statistics, the avg. life expectancy for whites is 77.9 yrs. while for blacks, it's 72.6. Full payment SS retirement age is 67. Early in the days of SS, black life expectancy was at, guess what, 67! IF you need me to explain any further why blacks ought to "hate Social Security", let me know!

    BTW, due to socioeconomics, blacks pay a far higher % of their lifetime income into SS than whites! Damn Liberals, f#@%&^ blacks the whole time and they eat it up and give you 90% loyalty! Smartest minorities in our country!

    Posted by Happy at 06/30/2007 @ 11:54am

  18. Woodstock Anniversary's coming up in August...

    Posted by woodyee at 06/30/2007 @ 11:57am

  19. Hap, Moore's assessment of our health care mess includes comparisons with that of other countries. we lag shockingly behind in all measures. that is all beyond dispute. don't bother to inform yourself, as your posts are usually of an ideological party line nature. too bad you couldn't have written for Pravda in its heyday.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 12:02pm

  20. Woodstock Anniversary's coming up in August...

    Posted by WOODYEE 06/30/2007 @ 11:57am | ignore this person

    I was there, babe. I also own a stack of the original posters.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 12:03pm

  21. osted by HAPPY 06/30/2007 @ 11:54am | ignore this person

    all backwards, as usual. you are not interested in improving afro-american's lot in life, using them instead as a club against liberals. it is those liberals who are for universal healthcare. I imagine that "blacks" are over represented in the 40 to 50 million uninsured, something which no doubt adversely affects their life expectancy.they are also over represented in the poverty statistics. whatta phony you are, bragging about your wealth while kicking the havenots in the teeth, rhetorically.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 12:08pm

  22. Research may or may not exist to prove these points.

    Duh.

    what's really funny is that you Brucie pretended to be a doctor in these pages, until I exposed you for a craven liar.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 1:51pm

  23. Happy-Your statements about blacks gives us new insight into the mind of Happy.Not a pretty picture.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 06/30/2007 @ 1:54pm

  24. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 06/30/2007 @ 1:25pm | ignore this person

    this is really priceless in its absurdity. you make a claim that you cannot substantiate, and I'm supposed to prove what you cannot do so. one for the ages. whatta lying idiotic jerk you are Brucie, the fake doc.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 2:00pm

  25. Don't worry yourself with JR. He has yet to prove, despite repeated challenges, that other countries' health statistics are not a result of differences in data collection methodology. He has yet to prove, despite repeated challenges, that other countries' health statistics are a result of their health care systems as opposed to their healthier lifestyles. He has yet to prove that other countries' health statistics have improved as a result of a change in their system.

    Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 06/30/2007 @ 1:25pm

    well, part of the problem with responding to your questions is that they are more a result of ideology driven obfuscation than scientific rigor. similar to rationally absolutist assaults on the theory of evolution.

    lets see here...

    has yet to prove, despite repeated challenges, that other countries' health statistics are not a result of differences in data collection methodology

    bullshit. are you trying to say that not one competant study, using comperable measurement devices has been completed by anyone anywhere, comparing such? really? a miracle!

    He has yet to prove that other countries' health statistics have improved as a result of a change in their system.

    ever hear of the results of preventative medicine? well, sure, according to the self serving (but double edged) fallacy of absolutes, you cant really prove anything. the usa is not a democracy, its a republic. changes in environment cannot be 100% proven to result in biological evolution.

    Research may or may not exist to prove these points.

    and i'm sure, in order to fit a circular world into your square ideological preconceptions, the standard of proof you require is beyond reasonable and accepted standars of proof. is it the same with the crap your ideological masters feed you?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 06/30/2007 @ 2:08pm

  26. my socialized medicine? try millions' socialized medicine. every gov't employee has gov't health insurance, as does every senior citizen and all of the very poor, they ALL have socialized medicine.

    I am incidentally not arguing with the phony doc, but rather laying out a case for the unconvinced reader of this blog.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 2:15pm

  27. JR-We disabled veterans have socialized medicine and it's better than private care.Most people with private health care can't get the very up to date artificial body parts that we're given because private care refuses to pay for them.Few private companies will pay for all the care we're given.I needed surgery to be in less pain and my private company wouldn't pay because being in less pain was considered to be elective surgery,but the VA took care of it free of charge and now I'm in less pain.The government can and does provide quality care.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 06/30/2007 @ 2:24pm

  28. what was your question, Herr Scheindoktor?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 2:49pm

  29. nobody, thank you for that post. I am happy to add the millions of vets to the socialized medicine rolls. one convincing argument for single payer is the economics of scale. another is that the profit mania of the insurance companies is absent. another is that none, I repeat NONE of the single payer countries has abandoned their system.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 06/30/2007 @ 2:58pm

  30. Let's have a new Constitutional Convention and make the US the most progressive, compassionate, and ideal place on Earth!

    War mongering, selfish, bible-thumping conservatives can all go live in Israel with their neocon bretheren!

    Posted by Metteyya at 06/30/2007 @ 3:23pm

  31. too bad you couldn't have written for Pravda in its heyday.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 06/30/2007 @ 12:02pm

    There is always the option of press secretary for Chimpy.

    Boy, reading the neo-con apologists, one would think that the populace is happy with insurance company policies, and that customer satisfaction has a place in corporate policy in 2007.

    they are willing to pay for health care for the uninsured via higher premiums and higher cost medical care, but god forbid we nationalize that cost and spread it intelligently.

    I can tell that the apologists have had very little interaction with their insurers.

    Support the Troops!!! Take away socialized medicine for veterans. Require them to pay for policies from private insurers. Are you neo-cons down with that? Willing to go speak at a VA event in favor of such a plan? Maybe just after you sign up to go fight in Iraq?

    Chimpy gets nationalized/socialized medicine, as does VP Howler Monkey, even though he really isn't part of the executive OR legislative branches. Cheney gets FREE medicine for his clot, even though he is worth millions. I guess they are "working hard", so they deserve it.

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 3:28pm

  32. Wanna talk about Kooks? Take a gander at the NR cruise.

    am standing waist-deep in the Pacific Ocean, indulging in the polite chit-chat beloved by vacationing Americans. A sweet elderly lady from Los Angeles is sitting on the rocks nearby, telling me dreamily about her son. "Is he your only child?" I ask. "Yes," she answers. "Do you have a child back in England?" she asks me. No, I say. Her face darkens. "You'd better start," she says. "The Muslims are breeding. Soon, they'll have the whole of Europe."

    I am getting used to such moments, when holiday geniality bleeds into--well, I'm not sure exactly what. I am traveling on a bright-white cruise ship with two restaurants, five bars, and 500 readers of National Review. Here, the Iraq war has been "an amazing success." Global warming is not happening. Europe is becoming a new Caliphate. And I have nowhere to run.

    "You must live near the U.N. building," the Floridian says to one of the ladies after the entrée is served. Yes, she responds, shaking her head wearily. "They should suicide-bomb that place," he says. They all chuckle gently

    Now that this barrier has been broken--everyone agrees the Muslims are devouring the French, and everyone agrees it's funny--the usual suspects are quickly rounded up. Jimmy Carter is "almost a traitor." John McCain is "crazy" because of "all that torture." One of the Park Avenue ladies declares that she gets on her knees every day to "thank God for Fox News." -Johann Hari, New Republic.

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 3:39pm

  33. Who is Inmate No. 28301-016?

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 3:41pm

  34. How we doin' against the Taliban. Worlds largest military, unlimited spending and resources vs a rag-tag bunch of barbarians.

    ISLAMABAD, Pakistan, June 28 -- The Pakistani president, Gen. Pervez Musharraf, was warned this month that Islamic militants and Taliban fighters were rapidly spreading beyond the country's lawless tribal areas and that without "swift and decisive action," the growing militancy could engulf the rest of the country.

    The warning came in a document from the Interior Ministry, which said Pakistan's security forces in North-West Frontier Province abutting the tribal areas were outgunned and outnumbered and had forfeited authority to the Taliban and their allies.

    "The ongoing spell of active Taliban resistance has brought about serious repercussions for Pakistan," says the 15-page document, which was shown to The New York Times. "There is a general policy of appeasement towards the Taliban, which has further emboldened them."

    Indeed, the recognition of the scope of the extremists' authority comes after heavy pressure on Pakistan from the United States to contain the lawlessness in the tribal areas. Washington has poured some $1 billion a year into Pakistan in the last five years for what are described as reimbursements for Pakistan's counterterrorism efforts along the border with Afghanistan.

    The prime purpose of the sizable financial support has been to stop the area from becoming a haven for the Taliban and Al Qaeda as they wage their insurgency in Afghanistan.-NYT, June 30, 2007.

    that's your tax money, HAPPY, JOHN and MBB.

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 3:48pm

  35. While we imagine that we are "debating" here in the US, our armed forces have committed another massacre of civilians, no accident, as usual.

    Posted by ZERO 06/30/2007 @ 12:13pm

    That's a fucking lie and you know it-MBB

    You wouldn't know a lie if it bit you in the ass.

    The Associated Press

    Saturday 30 June 2007

    Baghdad - American soldiers rolled into Baghdad's Shiite Sadr City slum on Saturday in search of Iranian-linked militants and as many as 26 Iraqis were killed in what a U.S. officer described as "an intense firefight."

    But residents, police and hospital officials said eight civilians were killed in their homes and angrily accused U.S. forces of firing blindly on the innocent. Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki condemned the raids and demanded an explanation for the assault into a district where he has barred U.S. operations in the past.

    Separately, two American soldiers were charged with the premeditated murder of three Iraqis, the U.S. military said Saturday. And in Muqdadiyah, 60 miles north of the capital, police said a suicide bomber blew himself up near a crowd of police recruits, killing at least 23 people and wounding 17. [The Surge is working fine]

    The assault brought quick criticism from al-Maliki. "The Iraqi government totally rejects U.S. military operations ... conducted without a pre-approval from the Iraqi military command,"

    Posted by crabwalk at 06/30/2007 @ 3:54pm

  36. Then it ought to be easy to find incontrovertible proof that a change from a countries' socialized system improved its health statistics. I haven't been able to do it, but as I stated, that proof might very well exist. You see, the difference between JR and myself is that I actually am interested in the topic and want to find a better way. However, I refuse to simply point to some arbitrary statistic(s) and cry "See? SEE?" The answer is more complicated than JR's ideology.

    Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 06/30/2007 @ 2:59pm

    i push a toy car into a box of marbles and holes. i hear it strike. or not... marbles move around. some come rolling out...

    i'm comfortable with the assumption that the toy car i pushed into the box caused the marbles to move...

    i had better not bring this up to a physicist, though...i'm sure i'm probably wrong.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 06/30/2007 @ 4:11pm

  37. "I can only imagine the kooks and koons at this meeting...

    what the hell is this? are you adding racism to your repertoire? shame, shame shame.unbelievable, really. don't make me ashamed of being your friend.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 06/30/2007 @ 11:04am |

    OH MY GOD!!!

    Did I print this?

    My apologys to all who may be offended..it was a mis type by me and I am a shitty typist.

    I meant to type, "kooks and loons.."

    I hope you all here know what I meant, and again, my bad..

    please forgive me, seriously.

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 4:27pm

  38. Who is Inmate No. 28301-016?

    Posted by CRABWALK 06/30/2007 @ 3:41pm

    Sandy Burgulars room mate?

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 4:30pm

  39. JR,

    It was an error and I don't want to branded something I am not by committing a spelling and typing error.

    I have to run, we have 3 Japanese students at our home this week and my daughter will go to Japan in October to spend a week or two with them...They have some very cool art..

    Again, JR, I am glad you found it and pointed it out to me..I am embarassed..my sincere apologies if I have offended anyone,...looks like I am on most ignore lists..since only you saw this...

    Hmm, maybe I am typing to my self and you.

    Posted by john maasch at 06/30/2007 @ 4:36pm

  40. PlainBruce-The situation at Walter Reed had to do with outpatient housing and not medical care.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 06/30/2007 @ 4:59pm

  41. Nichols and the socialist crowd at the "World Social Forum" can take their Socialist agenda somewhere else thank you.

    And for Metteyya, we Christian conservatives love Israel but I also love the US. I think we'll stay. You can leave though for your beloved Sweden.

    And Zero has gotten to be another version of Fromredbird. He needs to just go live with his comrades at Hezbollah.

    Posted by antiliberal at 06/30/2007 @ 5:46pm

  42. Posted by CRABWALK 06/30/2007 @ 3:48pm

    Hi Ho Crabs, saw a headline over here a few days ago that asked; "What Happened to The Promised (Taliban) Spring Offensive in Afghanistan?". Realising it would just be some right wing nutter mouthing off I didn't bother to read the article but I'm sure you have a good answer for this one.

    (I know you are up with it but the Taliban and al Qaeda is not the same thing. The Taliban got their's in Afghanistan because they wouldn't handover old binnie etc and not so much because it was the primary target. A classic case of co-lateral damage if you please).

    Posted by lrjones4 at 06/30/2007 @ 8:25pm

  43. Posted by HAPPY 06/30/2007 @ 11:54am

    The reason black people give the Democrats 90% loyalty is that they're too intelligent to subscribe to the twisted logic of conservatism and neoconservatism. As your comment indicates, conservatives are interested in neither facts nor logic but simply in coming up with fallacious rhetorical tropes that seem to "prove" their selfish, screwy positions but, in fact, establish nothing except the general idiocy of the whole conservative ideology.

    Posted by w_m_bear at 06/30/2007 @ 8:47pm

  44. looks like I am on most ignore lists..since only you saw this...

    Hmm, maybe I am typing to my self and you.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 06/30/2007 @ 4:36pm

    YOU ARE NOT ON MY IGNORE LIST...

    Because I don't have one. And the reason for that is, I don't believe in ignoring ANYONE, no matter how twisted their views or insulting their language. Call me a progressive left liberal something-or-other bad for believing this way but hey....

    Posted by w_m_bear at 06/30/2007 @ 8:54pm

  45. Scooter, Hurray!

    George Bush is a Genius! He predicted "Iraq will get worse this summer" - he was right! Iraq did indeed get worse - bloody is what he said, the man is RIGHT.

    Posted by conshame at 06/30/2007 @ 9:44pm

  46. Wow! All Republicans who believed their Commander in Chief when he said "Iraq will get worse this summer", were RIGHT too. Who said Republicans are always wrong?

    You see, the errorists are getting desperate, and of course they'll kill off alot more Americans when they are desperate.

    Posted by conshame at 06/30/2007 @ 9:48pm

  47. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 06/30/2007 @ 1:25pm

    I'll bite. Your points.

    1. ...other countries' health statistics are not a result of differences in data collection methodology...

    2. ...other countries' health statistics are a result of their health care systems as opposed to their healthier lifestyles...

    3. ...other countries' health statistics have improved as a result of a change in their system...

    I'd like you to explain to me just exactly what you think the methodological problems are in OECD's Health Care Quality Indicators and what specific problems they pose to making specific health care system comparisons.

    http://www.oecd.org/health/hcqi

    The problem, for you, is that all anyone has to do to sink your argument is establish that any specific point they want to discuss is statistically relevant. I don't have to argue that the other things are not relevant. In fact, I don't even have to argue that any particular point is more relevant than any you indicate - such as healthy lifestyle. In other words, the framework of your argument is fundamentally weak.

    But that's not the only problem. You are also ignoring facts like there are studies specifically designed to address the problems you are raising such as the "Joint Canada/United States Survey of Health: Findings and public-use microdata file" that has statements like this one:

    "One of the important findings of this survey is that Americans in the poorest income quintile report fair or poor health, obesity and severe mobility impairment more frequently than their Canadian counterparts."

    I think this pretty much defines "better" when all Canadians are on par with those that have health insurance in the U.S. - except in the U.S. people have a better experience because they don't have to bother waiting in line with the poor.

    Philosophical skepticism is fine. It helps us to remember to be humble about what we supposedly know. But if you are going to act in the world, then you need to assess probabilities and make judgments - and we have tools such as statistical models that help us make better decisions. Let's not pretend they don't exist, shall we?

    http://www.statcan.ca/english/freepub/82M0022XIE/2003001/pdf/82M0022XIE2 003001.pdf

    Posted by srjenkins at 06/30/2007 @ 10:01pm

  48. Thanks, Mr. Nichols, for publicizing the "Social Forum" conference and its attempts to expand people's conceptions about what's possible in this "bread and circuses" supplied slumbering giant of a country of ours.

    And MBB, I frankly don't recall Moore's F911 film mentioning any $1000 US government bounties for dead Iraqi citizens to be paid to Haliburton, and am finding your sweeping generalizations also off putting. I'm glad, though, that Frankgrits influenced you to check it out even though your ad hominem attack on Moore says much more about you and your critiquing than your erstwhile attempts to state and support your supposed findings of falsity/error. Any comments on the fundamentalist and egregiously anti-feminist Wahabbi(sp?) sect of Sunni Islam which has held sway in Saudi Arabia since the colonial partitioning of the so-called "Middle East" after WWI which Moore explicates?

    Posted by lewwelge at 06/30/2007 @ 10:46pm

  49. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 06/30/2007 @ 11:04am

    Headline from Psychiatry Today:

    LAYMAN DISCOVERS NEW PHENOMENON: "FREUDIAN TYPO".

    (Sorry, guys. Couldn't resist.)

    Peace.

    Posted by drhammer at 06/30/2007 @ 11:08pm

  50. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 06/30/2007 @ 4:27pm

    JR is just being a mean spirited pedant. But he is wrong here. K and C may be equivalent in German but in English they aren't. eg. cook and kook. I thought you meant goon, which in the context was very fitting. Those more cultured than I would know you meant muzzle (die Schnauze for JR or koon if you are Estonian) which, for all I know, may also be an accurate description.

    On reflection it probably indicates that you have a breadth of culture that surpasses even that of the well read JR.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 06/30/2007 @ 11:26pm

  51. SICKO is an outright attack on OUR health system

    Posted by HAPPY 06/30/2007 @ 11:45am | ignore this person

    We have a health care system?

    "Ordinarily (s)he was insane, but (s)he had lucid moments when (s)he was merely stupid." - Heinrich Heine

    icf itmfa

    Posted by COProgressive at 06/30/2007 @ 11:27pm

  52. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 06/30/2007 @ 8:04pm

    granted

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/01/2007 @ 12:02am

  53. ....conservatives are interested in neither facts nor logic but simply in coming up with fallacious rhetorical tropes that seem to "prove" their selfish, screwy positions....

    Posted by W_M_BEAR 06/30/2007 @ 8:47pm

    Most engineers, which I used to be and still have a wide circle of such as lifelong friends, are conservatives, fact-based and highly logical. I'd think you wouldn't want the engineers of our society taking chances designing a bridge or high-rise that just `might' stand for 50 years.

    Since I also have a business degree and know a fair number of such as well, I can state flatly that most business grads are pragmatic (money driven, if you will) and know that satisfying demand, is what drives any profit-oriented enterprise....which again, depends on facts and logic....otherwise, bankruptcy!

    Born in the 50s', my entire life experience is that overall, blacks in America are worse off today.....even while a visible minority have achieved upper-middle and upper stratums (Johnsons of Black Entertainment Television, head of American Express, head of AOL, superstar athletes, etc.) which was not the case 3~4 decades ago.

    You and your ilks can fall back to the usual rhetorics that all essentially boils down to the charge of Racism on the part of conservatives and, like MBB mentioned, never face the realities of past failed policies.

    As a Capitalist, I want my companies to have as many customers as possible, a color-blind AND logical philosophy. Unlike the Libs/Dems, I want to see the American blacks rise economically and socially first...and secondarily, their rise may lead some of them away from the Democratic Party and to the true liberal party (personal liberty and accountability) of today, the GOP.

    Face it, the Dems know that an impoverished, easily-fooled black population is CRITICAL to its survival as a viable party.

    Posted by Happy at 07/01/2007 @ 12:16am

  54. We have a health care system?

    Posted by COPROGRESSIVE 06/30/2007 @ 11:27pm

    I knew you are a mental case! Go reread TN (David Corn for one) on Moore's new film, SICKO, that's you!

    Posted by Happy at 07/01/2007 @ 12:21am

  55. Well, Happybutignorant, my engineer friends are mostly liberal. So much for your stats.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/01/2007 @ 04:57am

  56. (I know you are up with it but the Taliban and al Qaeda is not the same thing. The Taliban got their's in Afghanistan because they wouldn't handover old binnie etc and not so much because it was the primary target. A classic case of co-lateral damage if you please).

    Posted by LRJONES4 06/30/2007 @ 8:25pm |

    The Talban "got theirs"? If so, why are they still reeking havoc in at least 2 countries? Why are they running things in some Afghani regions?

    Because Chimpy went a-nation building in Iraq, and The Chimp don't do nation building. He said so himself. We can see his results in 2 failed states, both of which harbor terrorists.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/01/2007 @ 05:01am

  57. I can see racism poking it's ugly head out around here again. Thinly, and poorly, disguised as usual. Another facet of the neo-con fear.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/01/2007 @ 05:03am

  58. And where is 'Ol Binnie?

    Safe and sound, hangin' with his bros who are indifferent to a $24,000,000 reward. Chimpy the flip flopper said we'll git him. Then no, not so worried about 'Ol Binnie, don't think much abut him. Now we are out to git him again cuz the focus group said not thinking about him looked pretty bad.

    sorry your theories met the hard road of reality. Not as sorry as the 700,000 dead or 4 million displaced are, but sorry anyway.

    LR, when are you going to join the massive Australian contingent in Iraq. Maybe you could bunk with Happy, Maasch, MBB and Rio. I am sure their god would keep you safe.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/01/2007 @ 05:09am

  59. Is Cheney going to celebrate freedom from a monarchy on WEd by telling the congress to go F itself? Who the hell do The People think they are overseeing, dammit!! It's good to be the King!!

    Long Live the King!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/01/2007 @ 05:14am

  60. The day the Supreme Court illegally stopped the vote counting in Florida, and appointed George Bush as President of the United States, it set off a chain reaction of crime which continues and will continue to subvert Democracy for years into our future. According to the government controlled media, Americans have no recourse to remedy this chain reaction of crime, and will just have to suck it up.

    Forget that! Any action that begins with a crime makes all subsequent illegal actions null and void, which means the American people are not bound by corrupt Supreme Court decisions whatsoever. We do have recourse, it's called Impeachment. Every Supreme Court Justice who voted to stop the vote counting in Florida, and appoint George Bush as President of the United States, should be Impeached.

    The subsequent innumerable national and international crimes perpetrated by the Almighty Republican Establishment following the appointment of George W. Bush have corrupted our entire political system. Corruption breeds corruption, and spreads like wildfire. Stop the chain reaction of crime, and put out the wildfire before it consumes our country.

    We have rights guaranteed by the Constitution and no gang of criminals can deprive us of our rights, no matter how many illegal laws they pass. Our Constitution is the Supreme Law, a triumph much like the New Testament. Corrupt leaders desecrate both.

    .

    Posted by rabblerowzer at 07/01/2007 @ 08:31am

  61. MBB-The Nation is a magazine and online magazine and the The Aryan Nations would not be defined as a cult.That post lost you much credibility.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/01/2007 @ 10:37am

  62. MBB-Do you have any evidence that Moore is trying to incite people to commit murder?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/01/2007 @ 10:51am

  63. Posted by CRABWALK 07/01/2007 @ 05:01am

    Crabs you will really have to get better sources of information. The news from Afghanistan is all bad - for the Taliban. The much touted spring offensive by the Taliban did fizzle, mainly because their boss man got bumped off and a fair slice of his troops are now relaxing in paradise.

    Love the way you do your numbers. Seems more like (700,000 - the true number) lies to me. Noticed in USA Today your mob has been caught out making up porkies again. If your reporters are too scared to go to Iraq I suppose a guess or a juicy stat from the insurgents is all that is needed to fill the news space.

    The war has been going for about 51.5 months, that gives 700,000/51.5 = 13,600 per month that's 447 per day, every day since March 3003. Yeah and I'll bet you've got fairies at the bottom of your garden too.

    447 per day? 3129 per week? 13558 per month? 162,695 per year?- pigs might fly.

    The civilian deaths have increased since the Shiite mosque was blown up early last year. You can be pretty sure that every possible death has been trumpeted in the media including the fabrications as addressed by USA Today. Can you ever think of a single day when anything like that number has been reported? But you need that many every day for the last 1568 days without missing a beat. Remember the Kurdish regions are almost free of war related deaths as are parts of the south. Thus most of the deaths are occurring in Baghdad where one can be sure "every" death due to the war will be reported.

    Have you ever seen a stat from that crazy guess that breaks that number down? How many were killed on a daily basis by insurgent's bombs or their guns etc and how many were killed by Coalition and Iraq government forces? Until you do I think Iraq Body count which at least is talking about actual bodies counted is the only figure that those who keep mental notes on the killings reported in the press find to be anywhere near that mark.

    Iraq Body Count 01/07/2007

    Civilians reported killed by military intervention in Iraq

    Min 66807

    Max 73120

    That equates to about 47 per day over the 51.5 months. However the last year March to March accounts for 44% of the deaths since the war began:

    Summary

    On every available indicator the year just ended (March 2006 – March 2007) has been by far the worst year for violence against civilians in Iraq since the invasion:

    * almost half (44%) of all violent civilian deaths after the initial invasion phase occurred in the just-ended fourth year of the conflict

    * mortar attacks that kill civilians have quadrupled in the last year (from 73 to 289)

    * massive bomb blasts that kill more than 50 people have nearly doubled in the last year (from 9 to 17)

    * fatal suicide bombs, car bombs, and roadside bombing attacks have doubled in the last year (from 712 to 1476)

    * one in 160 of Baghdad's 6.5 million population has been violently killed since the beginning of the war, representing 64% of deaths recorded so far

    Crabs these investigations are thorough and detailed and at least have the ring of truth. Without that sort of detailed data your stat is totally unbelievable. Its a checks and balances approach that in a different context your mob salivates over. Why not here?

    Taking 73120 x .44 gives 32,173 last year or 88 per day every single day of the year. For those who keep up with the news of casualties out of Iraq that is at least a believable figure. The figure of 700,000 merely gives one the impression that those who quote such figures are either fools or knaves and should not be taken seriously on anything.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/01/2007 @ 11:24am

  64. And for Metteyya, we Christian conservatives love Israel but I also love the US. I think we'll stay. You can leave though for your beloved Sweden.

    Then tell me, Mr. Anti-Liberal, where in the Bible are you guys getting this looney idea that if you make Israel larger and more powerful by weakening its neighbors (Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon) that this will hasten the second coming of Christ?

    This crazy idea is right up there with three headed dragons and scarlets on flying white horses in the crazy book of Revelations that even St. Augustine, the foremost Christain scholar, did not believe should be canonized in the Bible!

    How many Armageddon scenarios do we have to engage in before Christians realize that Jesus is not coming back (at least not in the form that you have imagined)?

    Do you really want to destroy the world to bring back Jesus?

    And if so, why should "anybody" listen to evangelicals or have them involved in serious policy decisions that affect the world?

    The fact that Jesus was the "prince of peace", not the "prince of war", seems to have been ignored by the evangelicals, and if you are unable to live your life NOW according to precepts of Jesus Christ, what makes you think things would be different if he returned?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 12:11pm

  65. Mr Anti-Liberal, do you really think Jesus Christ is going to give you a pass on your war mongering ways because you believe such destruction will hasten his return?

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 12:19pm

  66. The house was controled by Republicans who would have been dealing with a situation where the first two recounts went to Bush and a reount that wouldn't be finished for 8 months was unfinished.

    Mary, you are splitting hairs!

    Bush lost the 2000 popular vote, which means he shouldn't have been president, period.

    The only reason why we are stuck with the electoral college is the elitist mindse of the wealthy landowner founders that wanted to guard against the election of a popular candidate that was not controlled by their elitist crowd.

    If we honestly examine the Constitution with 20/20 hindsight, we will realized that it was not meant to create an ideal system of democracy by the people and for the people, but a system that protected the interests of the privileged few with the "illusion" of democracy for the rest of us. It was a fraud, plain and simple.

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 12:33pm

  67. MBB-Bush froze when told that the US was under attack.That behavior is consistent with the fact that Bush refused to fight in Nam.No one would have said that Bush was scaring the children if he had excused himself and left immediately as he should have.Kids understand going to the bathroom.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/01/2007 @ 12:51pm

  68. One more thing, Mary,

    How could Bush NOT voluntarily resign when it became clear that he lost the popular vote? How can you lead the "democratic revolution" in the world when most people in your own country did NOT vote for you?

    This brings up an earlier point, that Republicans are about power, not principles. So whenever Bush talks about principles, nobody is listening!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 1:03pm

  69. Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/01/2007 @ 2:06pm

    yeah - rove used all that machiavellian stuf nicely to get folks elected, but when it came to governing? har har har...even old nicolo himself would have jumped ship early and sold his services to someone a lot more competant...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/01/2007 @ 2:30pm

  70. So we can dispense with all of that bullshit regarding freedom of speech and Roe v. Wade?

    Freedom of speech? Did you read the latest opinions from the Supremes on Freedom of Speech? (I believe there is another open thread on this issue).

    The Supremes thought it was OK to restrict a "student's" free speech rights to carry a protest banner but NOT OK to restrict the free speech of "moneyed interests" that want to circumvent the democratic process with their "independent" campaign ads! Talk about ridiculous! At least the Supremes were being sincere in adhering to the "founder's intent" of protecting the interests of the privileged few while giving the rest of us the "illusion" of democracy.

    America deserves much better than what the founders provided, and it is now time for a new Constitutional Convention that permanently enshrines the "democratic" (not republican - small "d" and small "r") principle that our government is for and by the majority of Americans, and does not belong to some slick lobbyist in a $6,000 suit that wants to "buy" Congress!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 3:40pm

  71. Then tell me, Mr. Anti-Liberal, where in the Bible are you guys getting this looney idea that if you make Israel larger and more powerful by weakening its neighbors (Iraq, Iran, Syria, and Lebanon) that this will hasten the second coming of Christ?

    How many Armageddon scenarios do we have to engage in before Christians realize that Jesus is not coming back (at least not in the form that you have imagined)?

    Do you really want to destroy the world to bring back Jesus?

    The fact that Jesus was the "prince of peace", not the "prince of war", seems to have been ignored by the evangelicals, and if you are unable to live your life NOW according to precepts of Jesus Christ, what makes you think things would be different if he returned?

    Posted by METTEYYA 07/01/2007 @ 12:11pm

    You need to stop reading leftist, anti-Christian websites for your theological understanding of evangelical Christianity.

    Nearly all Evangelicals hold to a belief that the return of Christ is independent of any events on Earth. The only impact that we can have on the timing of His return is in our obedience to share the good news of Christ to all mankind

    Matthew 24:14 Jesus said "And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come."

    Evangelical Christians support Israel primarily because it is commanded by God in the Bible.

    Genesis 12:3 "I will bless those who bless you, And I will curse him who curses you; And in you all the families of the earth shall be blessed."

    Psalm 135:4, Isaiah 41:8,44:1 on Israel chosen by God

    God's promise to restore the Jews to their land

    'Thus says the Lord God: "When I have gathered the house of Israel from the peoples among whom they are scattered, and am hallowed in them in the sight of the Gentiles, then they will dwell in their own land which I gave to My servant Jacob. 26 And they will dwell safely there, build houses, and plant vineyards; yes, they will dwell securely, when I execute judgments on all those around them who despise them. Then they shall know that I am the Lord their God."'"

    Ezekiel 28:25

    the message of the gospel remains for the Jew first and then the Gentile according to God's plan - Romans 1:16

    For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

    Romans Chapter 11

    Israel's Rejection Not Final

    11 I say then, have they stumbled that they should fall? Certainly not! But through their fall, to provoke them to jealousy, salvation has come to the Gentiles. 12 Now if their fall is riches for the world, and their failure riches for the Gentiles, how much more their fullness!

    For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26 And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:

    Lastly Metteyya, Christ is coming back in the Flesh to take us where He is because He promised to do so. Where is your evidence that either Christ did not say that or that He was lying?

    Posted by antiliberal at 07/01/2007 @ 3:41pm

  72. A couple of responses here. I'll touch the Israel issue really quickly; I'm assuming that Liberty and Antiliberal aren't contending that unconditional support of Israel is a good thing. If they are, then they are sadly mistaken; indeed, such a position would make a mockery of the positions that Jesus himself advocated.

    On Fahrenheit. First, the Fahrenheit analysis leaves out the fact that Fox initially called Florida for Gore, which both suggests that there was little to not political bias in their decisions, and was distinct because they called it for Gore while the polls were still open. Second, there are some posts attacking the electoral system for subverting the popular vote. Interestingly enough, this didn't seem to be a problem when Clinton governed without winning a majority of that same electoral vote. Moreover, this criticism doesn't make Bush's presidency illegitimate, especially when he won the popular vote in 2004.

    Finally, the blippy reference to Morse v. Frederick (the student speech case) is silly because it ignores things that should be obvious. One, student speech that occurs in a school-related context (which no court, even the 9th circuit denies that this was) is much more limited than regular speech. Two, anti-drug speech is particularly problematic, and insofar as the principal reasonably determined that this was anti-drug speech (discretion that she is constitutionally obligated to exercise), her decision was justified.

    Posted by Thrawn at 07/01/2007 @ 4:19pm

  73. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 06/30/2007 @ 10:14pm

    You need to re-read my post, but let me help YOU out. OECD countries are regularizing their collection policies. Even if they weren't you could easily assess the impact of these differences and incorporate then in your comparison. This is not an insurmountable problem.

    The rest is just anecdotes - which is especially interesting is that you are essentially arguing that those children with parents that have healthcare should survive and those that don't shouldn't. It's a morally reprehensible position.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/01/2007 @ 4:30pm

  74. Posted by ANTILIBERAL 07/01/2007 @ 3:41pm

    does this cherry-picked scripture then mean the united states should support israel, even to its own detriment? i think there are plenty of verifiable here and now reasons we should (in general, and indeed sometimes to our detriment) support israel. but there have been times when we should have been more objective and less partisan, that policy decisions that would blow the tops off rabid aipaccers and the nihilistic, SECULAR, lunatic fringe of modern, nationalist zionists, would in fact have resulted in a more secure, more peaceful middle east, including israel.

    ie - the rabidity of the uber pro isrealites has been detrimental to the welfare of israel in the big picture.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/01/2007 @ 5:09pm

  75. Posted by ANTILIBERAL 07/01/2007 @ 3:41pm

    Actually, it's not "leftist websites" that are the problem. It's Evangelicals themselves that are the source of the problem.

    Everytime someone like LVLIBERTY does a creative reading of scripture to support war with Islam when the words of Christ say to "turn the other cheek" it shakes the faith of people that want to follow Christ.

    Oh, by the way, there are Christian leftists too. You presume too much to think you speak for Christians and that they are typically on the "right". You certainly don't speak for me.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 07/01/2007 @ 3:44pm

    "Turn the other cheek" applies to Muslims as well. Inability to hear and follow the words of Christ doesn't strike me as a particularly "leftist" problem.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/01/2007 @ 5:50pm

  76. ....Frank...is the village idiot....he makes such good comedy.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 07/01/2007 @ 5:29p

    Hear, hear!!! I'll drink to that! Right in line w/his love for she who said: "It takes a village!"

    Now, FRANK, don't take this the wrong way! You, NOBODY and CON all get my votes...I just can't decide who is the Lead Clown! You are all indispensable in any circus (our blogging `community' here is one for sure) where some acts are more serious, such as trapeze w/out safety nets (= high-wire debates between SRJ and MASK)!

    Back to the "World" outside TN's Big Tent, Magic Negro is ever more intriguing....Most of our little Community has probably already seen the below: (FRANK, you might want to scroll past....it may SCARE you)

    ------------------------------------------------------------

    Obama Raised $32.5 Million in Second Quarter

    By JEFF ZELENY

    Published: July 1, 2007

    WASHINGTON, July 1 -- Senator Barack Obama of Illinois raised a total of $32.5 million from April through June, his campaign announced today, drawing 258,000 contributors since entering the Democratic presidential race nearly six months ago.

    While money continued to be tabulated from a final burst of donations that arrived before the fund-raising period closed Saturday, the Obama campaign provided an early estimate of its figures, hoping to demonstrate its financial muscle and widespread support.

    The campaign of Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton of New York has said it would raise "in the range of $27 million."

    No other candidates, Democrat or Republican, have suggested they will surpass those tallies for the second quarter of the year......

    ------------------------------------------------------

    As a Republican, if a Dem is going to be in the WH, HRC is acceptable since she isn't as likely to rock ALL of the boats. That said, it would be, frankly FRANK, much more exciting to have Obama in the WH. The world would be amazed! Who knows, if Magic continues to hone his own circus act w/paying customers, I might even begin to pull for him to be the Dem nominee. This maybe the most interesting Primary yet!

    Posted by Happy at 07/01/2007 @ 6:46pm

  77. "They haven't abandoned their system,"

    please eat your words.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/01/2007 @ 6:57pm

  78. Lastly Metteyya, Christ is coming back in the Flesh to take us where He is because He promised to do so. Where is your evidence that either Christ did not say that or that He was lying?

    We restored Israel in 1950 and no one (with any sense) has been flying through the air on white horses dueling it out with three-headed dragons!

    C'mon Mr. Anti-Liberal, you have to confess that John was losing it in that cave all those years by himself when he wrote the book of Revelations!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 7:53pm

  79. Either Revelations is allegorical and Jesus is NOT coming back "in the flesh", or if it is literal, poor John was stone crazy!

    Posted by Metteyya at 07/01/2007 @ 8:12pm

  80. ....None of those of us on the left hold any of you in high regard....

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/01/2007 @ 8:51pm

    Ohhhhhh, FRANNNNNNNK, you are sooooooooo mean! You are one of Clowns here and you are supposed to make us laugh! Allright....I can't fake it anymore.....LOL, LOL, LOL!!!

    What the TN's liberal "guests" can't fathom is that the final chapters on US foreign entanglements (most contentiously today, Iraq) won't be written for decades....whether we withdraw today or in 5 years.

    So, FRANK, did you sneak a peek at what Magic brought into his tent these past three months? What if his tent keeps getting upsized to accomodate more and more paying customers? I think......HRC needs you to go to your $2,300 limit, NOW!! Show her the Love, come on!!

    Posted by Happy at 07/01/2007 @ 9:35pm

  81. As long as the national media is firmly in the hands of the corporation they will continue to dictate the course of debate in this country. The corporate media will do anything to tear down those candidates that do not subscribe to their corporate agenda. The corporations will also shower campaign contributions who are willing to play their tune. While people on the left are busy sporting fringe candidates who have virtually no chance of getting elected...there is good chance that Republicans will stay in power depsite the fact they have no agenda, no ideas, and have nothing to offer to the American public.

    Posted by kevin99999 at 07/01/2007 @ 9:57pm

  82. "LR, when are you going to join the massive Australian contingent in Iraq. Maybe you could bunk with Happy, Maasch, MBB and Rio. I am sure their god would keep you safe."

    Posted by CRABWALK 07/01/2007 @ 05:09am

    Probably the safest place in the world to be Crabs. Not sure whether it's more than just general providence but not one dead Aussie in Iraq or Afghanistan, to date, must tell us that it is a highly skilled professional fighting force. So one doesn't just rock up for a jaunt in Iraq with the mighty Aussies. Many are called but few are chosen.

    Not sure I'm not into the physicality of that sort of fighting. I'm more from the school that believes the pen is mightier than the sword....for me anyway. Considerate and selfless, as always, I won't risk stuffing up the proud record of our brave fighting boys and girls by joining up.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/01/2007 @ 10:31pm

  83. ....I'm Goddamned angry....idiot.....fucking ignoramous. We're the laughing stock of the entire world now....

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/01/2007 @ 9:42pm

    FREIHEIT,

    Looks like FRANK is "Goddamned" worried about 32.5 million Magic dollars while here I am, LMAO and having a cold one!

    FRANK seems to think our foreign entanglements ought to be based on what the reaction of the "entire world" will be. Sure, why not, if possible! But push comes to shove, to quote somebody dashing: "FRANKly, my dear (FRANK), I don't give a damn!" It's lonely at the top, but oh my, what a view.....especially looking down at FRANK, burning up!

    Fun evening!

    Posted by Happy at 07/01/2007 @ 10:57pm

  84. Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/01/2007 @ 9:42pm

    Nope. They may hate you Frank but the rest of the world got more laughs when you were getting out of Mogadishu and Beirut as fast as your legs would carry you. That was two victories for the Holy Warriors over your military/government that gave the despisers and haters of America the most fun.

    As one who has observed your country for some years I suggest you have invariably been hated reflexively by the Left worldwide. The biggest laughs, however" will come when you adopt the tail between legs attitude once again but his time in the context of Iraq. The only thing that will wipe the smile from the faces of the mockers is the US seeing the Iraq venture through.

    If you didn't have such a self inflicted national cringe you might see that there is a solid core of Westerners who, though perhaps not agreeing with the way Iraq was handled, respect America for the humanitarian aspects of its motivation to go to war in Iraq.

    My advice to you Frank is to get up from your groveling posture and realise that the US for all its faults and mis-steps is still, in 2007, a beacon to many nations who aspire to be like you.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/01/2007 @ 11:52pm

  85. Hey Happy. When you turn in for the night,....

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/01/2007 @ 9:40pm

    .....the US for all its faults and mis-steps is still, in 2007, a beacon to many nations who aspire to be like you.

    Posted by LRJONES4 07/01/2007 @ 11:52pm

    LRJones4, Thank you for the kind words for our country! Nice last words before I "turn in for the night".....just not exactly what FRANK had in mind! Ain't his day.....going to bed Goddamned ANGRY!

    Hey FRANK, today (7/2) maybe a better day for you! Don't forget, Hillary is waiting on that $2,300 before she let you lick her balls again!

    Posted by Happy at 07/02/2007 @ 12:20am

  86. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 07/01/2007 @ 5:27pm |

    ok.

    nice to see you back, ll.

    i think israel, from a realpolitik standpoint, is a valuable us ally. the cultural connections raise this relationship indeed to a higher level, to a level that justifies our going out on a limb for israel sometimes...sometimes and to a certain point. i dont doubt that conspiratorial revisionists exist in israel that want to drag us out on a nasty limb that most israelis dont want anymore than i.

    but regardless, sometimes one must tell a friend "no", or even shun a friend when he goes astray. i think we have foolishly enabled our friend to at times fan fires we get burned in.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 07/02/2007 @ 01:28am

  87. By Bill Schneider CNN Senior Political Analyst

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- How do people think the Democratic Congress is doing after six months? Lousy. But better than the alternative.

    In a new CNN/Opinion Research poll, only 25 percent of those polled approved of the job Congress is doing.

    It's midyear, and the Democratic Congress is taking a break. Well-deserved? No, say Republicans.

    "We are now halfway through the first year of the 110th Congress," Rep. Eric Cantor, R-Virginia, said. "And there is no question that the failure on the part of the Democrats in terms of their midterm exam is really a letdown to the expectations of the American people.''

    Democratic leaders are inclined to agree. "I'm not happy with Congress, either," Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi said.

    And the American people? Look at the grades. President Bush is doing terribly -- an average of 30 percent job approval in six recent polls. Congress is doing worse -- 25 percent on the average in five polls.

    Why the low marks? Democrats point to one issue where not much seems to be getting done. "The war in Iraq is dragging down people's confidence in what's going on in this country," Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid said.

    Republicans point to another issue. "One of the reasons that confidence is at an all-time low is because of the immigration bill," Sen. Jim DeMint, R-South Carolina, said.

    So, are voters ready to change horses again and go back to a Republican Congress? Nope.

    A solid majority says it's good for the country that the Democratic Party is in control of Congress. Even though they're doing a lousy job? Yes.

    People think, OK, the Democrats aren't so great. But the Republicans are worse.

    Just a bare majority of Americans now holds a favorable opinion of the Democratic Party (51 percent). But only 36 percent like the Republicans. That's the Republican Party's second-lowest rating in 15 years. Only in December 1998, when the Republican Congress voted to impeach President Clinton, were Republicans held in lower regard.

    http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/06/29/congress.poll/index.html

    Posted by hsuBfools at 07/02/2007 @ 02:55am

  88. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 07/01/2007 @ 11:16pm

    I am suggesting that his argument is a bad one. He made claims around how "socialist" medicine wouldn't have gone through heroic measures to reach the outcome he wanted without addressing the obvious problem in his position.

    If you are going to argue that health care is a scarce resource, then yes, I do think it is a morally superior position to allocate this resource equitably rather than use heroic measures for the rich while the poor go without.

    I personally don't think health care has to be a scarce resource. If we spent the money that we currently spend on military programs on healthcare, there would be more than enough healthcare to go around - regardless of the management system employed.

    I am not making any arguments about the quality of U.S. healthcare to those that recieve it. So, I'll pass on the bait to change the topic.

    You are avoiding the problem of establishing whether these deviations are relevant for the comparisons that are being made. In other words, you have to do some work instead of just floating possibilities and pretending it passes for argumentation. The fact that there are problems doesn't mean that we cannot make claims about whether one type of management system is performing better than others. I've sank that weak argument based on vague possibilities, and you know it.

    But let's review, shall we? An argument has premises that are either true or false and a conclusion that follows from the logic of those premises.

    What I find particularly interesting is how you are so deeply concerned about relevant differences when making comparisons - but that same concern doesn't seem to apply when you float your own argument. I'll deconstruct it for you since you seem to want to be cute here.

    Could it be that the people on Medicaid are actually people that cannot be profitably insured - and they will always fall under a government program? How pray tell, do you find private insurance for people that cannot be profitably covered - if not by a government program? You see the glaring contradictions here and how your argument is weak to the point of irresponsibility?

    I'm suggesting that access to preventative health care and health care in general enables people to address problems that, at later stages, become costly to treat and lead to disability. Diabetes, high blood pressure, cancer screening, etc. - many diseases can be treated up front when people have a personal physician they can consult. This is not an option for the 15% that are uninsured in this country - and getting those people insured is going to require, you got it, a government program.

    I'm suggesting that all it takes is one illness without insurance and anyone of us could be in that lower quintile. Or even with insurance, a long illness that means loss of the job can result in the same thing.

    It's all well and good to be satisfied with health care, when you have coverage and you aren't suffering from a debilitating illness. You might be a little less excited about the satisifying U.S. health care system if it wasn't available to you, as it isn't for 15% of the population.

    So, are you going to address the substantive points I have raised or are you going to continue playing cute little rhetorical games?

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/02/2007 @ 04:34am

  89. a warning to whoever is paying attention. We will be defeating the terrorist scum with every means necessary. We will just be doing it with a much smarter President.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/02/2007 @ 01:12am

    If you were up to speed you would know that the cravenness of Reagan and Clinton in the face of terrorist confrontation is, in part, what helped form the Islamist's assessment of the character of the American people, particularly its opinion of your military, and most certainly was responsible for the miscalculation that al Qaeda made about you being too cowardly to respond to 9/11. Thus Reagan and particularly Clinton were responsible for what must have been the calculation that led to the decision to attack the Twin Towers, the Pentagon and possibly the Capitol or White House.

    This is what bin Laden and his "Holy Warriors" believed about the character of the American soldier prior to 9/11. This is part of an interview with John Miller in May 1998:

    (In the first part of this interview which occurred in May 1998, a little over two months before the U.S. embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania, Osama bin Laden answers questions posed to him by some of his followers at his mountaintop camp in southern Afghanistan. In the latter part of the interview, ABC reporter John Miller is asking the questions.)

    Q: Describe the situation when your men took down the American forces in Somalia.

    Osama b Laden: "After our victory in Afghanistan and the defeat of the oppressors who had killed millions of Muslims, the legend about the invincibility of the superpowers vanished. Our boys no longer viewed America as a superpower. So, when they left Afghanistan, they went to Somalia and prepared themselves carefully for a long war. They had thought that the Americans were like the Russians, so they trained and prepared.

    They were stunned when they discovered how low was the morale of the American soldier. America had entered with 30,000 soldiers in addition to thousands of soldiers from different countries in the world. ... As I said, our boys were shocked by the low morale of the American soldier and they realized that the American soldier was just a paper tiger. He was unable to endure the strikes that were dealt to his army, so he fled, and America had to stop all its bragging and all that noise it was making in the press after the Gulf War in which it destroyed the infrastructure and the milk and dairy industry that was vital for the infants and the children and the civilians and blew up dams which were necessary for the crops people grew to feed their families.

    Proud of this destruction, America assumed the titles of world leader and master of the new world order. After a few blows, it forgot all about those titles and rushed out of Somalia in shame and disgrace, dragging the bodies of its soldiers. America stopped calling itself world leader and master of the new world order, and its politicians realized that those titles were too big for them and that they were unworthy of them. I was in Sudan when this happened. I was very happy to learn of that great defeat that America suffered, so was every Muslim."

    Frank though you talk about profundity you and many of your lefty mates here are the epitome of shallowness. Reagan and Clinton gave al Qaeda good reason to come to the conclusion that you were a characterless, cowardly lot and no doubt this emboldened them to those acts of terrorism culminating in 9/11. Yet people like you have the gall to verbally abuse the only leader you had with the guts to stand up against the enemy that was hunting for you. You, it seems, are the sort whom bin Laden castigated for bombing women, children, civilians and vital infrastructure in GW1 but being too cowardly to mix it with "his boys".

    Bush has let you Americans show your true character through the tremendous sacrifices of your brave and courageous fighting men and women. Bush has restored your credibility as a nation willing to do the hard yards by engaging with an aggressor who formerly despised your courage and consequently did you great harm. There is little doubt that that enemy fully intended to do you much more harm. I have sympathy for the position of pacifists like JR who are opposed to war on conscientious grounds but I have no sympathy for the stance of those, like you, who seem to live in a state of amoral confusion.

    You suggest your "better than Bush" solution is to run from the terrorists order to defeat them. Frank that was tried by Reagan and Clinton but 9/11 and all the rest should indicate, even to a shallow person, that that is a strategy for disaster. I'm not averse to a bit of bullshit but your strategies are unadulterated bullshit. That's why a foreigner like me and many, many more around the world have respect for what Bush has done and in the wash up to get you out of the shit you were in.

    The only thing that seems to worry some of you is that the world's masses don't respect you because they are laughing at your "ignorant" president and that somehow rubs off onto you. Stiff shit. Where I come from we grovel for nobody.

    It seems to me that some of you, including some of your politicians exhibit the same craven nature, that got you to 9/11, indicated by the speed with which you have run up the white flag in Iraq. BTW if I was an American I wouldn't be boasting about that 70% number.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/02/2007 @ 05:44am

  90. "LR, when are you going to join the massive Australian contingent in Iraq. Maybe you could bunk with Happy, Maasch, MBB and Rio. I am sure their god would keep you safe."

    Posted by CRABWALK 07/01/2007 @ 05:09am

    Probably the safest place in the world to be Crabs.-QUAGMIREJONES

    Delusional. Poppycock. Ill informed.

    Willing to put his pen to work inflaming a war, but unwilling to fight for what you believe in.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:33am

  91. You need to stop reading leftist, anti-Christian websites for your theological understanding of evangelical Christianity. LUVSDESPOTS

    Yea, that's it. It's all the fault of "the leftists", again.

    How about a pro-christian website?

    www.raptureready.com. Pure right wing Christian

    Ayan Nation, MBB? Pure right wing Christian.

    flying horseys? Right wing nutjobs.

    How about if I make public policy based on a belief in unicorns and hobbits?

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:36am

  92. Or based on a belief that the road to Jerusalem runs through Baghdad? Voodoo economics?

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:42am

  93. "And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days" (Rev. 12:1-6).

    Of course the "woman" is Israel, it's obvious, dragon= Satan and the stars = angels.

    Obvious, right?

    Delusional nut jobs. Fighting more delusional nut jobs that have god on their side too.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:46am

  94. Hey, Moore's the one employing their recruiting techniques, not me.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 07/02/2007 @ 08:45am

    ?

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:47am

  95. I don't know Moore was going into prisons and establishing Christian gangs. My bad.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:48am

  96. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 07/02/2007 @ 08:43am

    Hatred of Bush is based on his actions, nothing else. He is a failure. He has sent a million men and women to fight an ill conceived war, with NO PLAN for post Saddam Iraq. Tha's common knowledge. Sorry your head is so buried in Bushes ass that you cannot think straight.

    I think London is having a problem with terrorists, that's impossible under the GWOT, isn't it? They are supposed to stay in Iraq and kill their women and children when not killing our soldiers and marines.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:52am

  97. Maasch, I appreciate your reply. we all need to cool it on the vitriol, myself included. that said, I calls them as I see 'em, pedantic or not.

    I have recently been accused of being an academic. nothing could be further from the truth. I am an autodidact. a real education begins after one leaves school. it means continuing to educate yourself, your whole life long. my life choice has been to bargain money not earned with time gained for my pursuits.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/02/2007 @ 08:56am

  98. "So again we ask the question: Are the dramatic events we have witnessed in Iraq since "Iraqi Freedom" brought about dramatic changes there the ignition of Armageddon? Saddam Hussein and most all other dictators in the Middle East have long been blood-vowed to completely destroy Israel. They have stated they want every Jew drowned in the Mediterranean or to meet an even more terrible fate.

    In that sense, Iraq and the other enemy nations of God's chosen people bring history tick after tick of the prophetic clock ever closer to that final battle in the valley God's Word calls Armageddon."

    Leftist misinterpretation? Oh no. Pure right wing nut job.

    It becomes obvious, if one believes Bible prophecy should be taken literally, that the area now called Iraq is mentioned prominently as having a role to play in history yet to unfold. We can be sure the prophetic Scriptures haven't yet been fulfilled because the region has never been rendered completely uninhabitable like foretold by Jeremiah:

    "And the land shall tremble and sorrow: for every purpose of the LORD shall be performed against Babylon, to make the land of Babylon a desolation without an inhabitant" (Jeremiah 51: 29).

    Does the prophecy above indicate that nuclear devastation is prophetically scheduled for the area presently occupied by the nation called Iraq? Radioactivity that contaminates the land to the point it cannot be inhabited seems to fit such a scenario.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 08:56am

  99. So laugh Happy or Maasch or Rio or whatever you call yourself today. Keep laughing. There's a nice place in hell reserved for the likes of you right along side Saddam and Falwell. You'll be there someday. Not soon enough.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 07/02/2007 @ 01:24am

    Frank, you are getting worse...are you hearing voices?..

    Take your own advice, stop listening to Limbaugh,he knows you are there, he is laughing at you, he wants you to push Hillary, ..he is sending you marching orders and you do not even know it, he is slowly convincing you to drive off the cliff, wake up, you are almost there,...the other voices your hear is GOD..her is in the oven, open the door, turn on the gas , he is sitting at a table in the back left side, Hillary is there, they want to ask you some questions about the "fairness Doctorine", but you must keep it a secret, they have a plan to get rid of all those who do vote Hillary and they need your help, now its dark in there and you need to bring a candle.....you will feel better...

    Posted by john maasch at 07/02/2007 @ 08:58am

  100. JR<

    my life choice has been to bargain money not earned with time gained for my pursuits.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 07/02/2007 @ 08:56am

    No problem,

    and this is what it is all about..choices...pursuits...of happiness.

    Someone tell Frank.

    Posted by john maasch at 07/02/2007 @ 09:00am

  101. I thnik we should become a Christian nation based on strict interpretation of scripture. How should we kill Phred Thompsons bevy of whores? You know, like the one that said "sometimes a woman needs a soft place to lie. He has strong hands."

    Should we burn them? Stoning?

    Dt.22:13-22 "If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her ... and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid: Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate.... But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you."

    MAry Cheney? guliani?

    There is going to be a run on the stone industry. Good thing they want to save us from the Taliban.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 09:05am

  102. Posted by LRJONES4 07/02/2007 @ 05:44am

    A fine post over all and describes how many feel...the problem comes when one thinks he has the entire "solution" to our dilemas and knows the "truth"...and that we just don't see it...like Frank...he believes he has found all the answers...he is so lost in Hillary and the dem party here in the US...and the answers are not in a polictical organization or hidden by some radio jocks...he condems people who he diagrees with to hell, and he doesn't believe in GOD..a slit mind for sure..too much heat on the melon.

    Frank needs a vacation..his posts are evolving into silliness..given enough time all he disagrees with will be on his ignore list and he will come to the conclusion that everyoine has suddenly agrees with him...

    Posted by john maasch at 07/02/2007 @ 09:06am

  103. The republican filed of hopefuls is going to have to wear body armor when speaking at churches.

    16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

    6:18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

    16:20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores, 16:21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man's table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores. 16:22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; (16:19-31) "I am tormented in this flame." In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell because he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented forever in hell. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. Does Hell exist? What the Bible says about rich people and torture The Bible's guide to torture 16:23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. 16:24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. 16:25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 09:10am

  104. FRANK, Hillary voted to give chimpy a war. Period. She is as guilty as the rest. She did it so as not to appear weak and leftiist. She did it with a finger in the wind. An ill wind that yet blows through this land, fanned by the breath of sheep.

    Sorry, truth hurts.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 09:12am

  105. LRJONES-Australia has lost two troops in Iraq.I knew that and you didn't.Why?Obviously,you've never been in the military.While being well trained will cut back on your losses it will not prevent them.The reason the Aussie army has few casualties is because they aren't in the thick of things.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 07/02/2007 @ 09:17am

  106. The aussies don't have the stones to commit 150,000 young men to fight for their freedoms? How many feet out the bar door could I get in Canberra if I made that pronouncement ?

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 09:58am

  107. ah, where is RIOKORESH? His man Phred is an adulterer in his god's eyes and should be stoned to death.

    git er dun, boy!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 10:03am

  108. Oops, I misquoted one of Phreds whores. (Bible definition, not mine)

    " He's majestic. He's a soft, safe place to be and that could be Fred's ticket. Women love a soft place to lay and a strong pair of hands to hold us,"

    Imagine the hoopla if Edwards only wife said that about him.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 10:09am

  109. We don't have the resources to prevent malnutrition in "all" our children, MBB? WRONG! We don't have the collective will, not leastwise because of folks like you who generalize to excess without the vision or compassion even hope for ending the Murder, Inc. government we're squirming under.

    Posted by lewwelge at 07/02/2007 @ 10:30am

  110. How about ending the use of trans fats? Or the subsidization of the corn syrup industry and the selling out of our school systems to Coke/Pepsi?

    remember, MBB is not malnourished, he is overfed and obese. This sucks money from the rest of us via the ridiculous healthcare industry, whether he can see it or not. The idea that children might go hungry in America is contradictory to the lines he sees at his McDonalds feedings.

    George McGovern said in 1972, "To admit the existence of hunger in America is to confess that we have failed in meeting the most sensitive and painful of human needs. To admit the existence of widespread hunger is to cast doubt on the efficacy of our whole system."

    2005-The USDA report, Household Food Security in the United States, 2004, says that 38.2 million Americans live in households that suffer directly from hunger and food insecurity, including nearly 14 million children. That figure is up from 31 million Americans in 1999.

    delusional Darin.

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 12:06pm

  111. So, Darin, do you support the public stoning of Fred Thompson's whores?

    The Bible says we have to do this!!

    But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel: Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house:

    Posted by crabwalk at 07/02/2007 @ 12:09pm

  112. I repeat NONE of the single payer countries has abandoned their system.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 06/30/2007 @ 2:58pm

    Wrong! Canada outlawed private insurance but their SC just ruled the law unconstituional because access to a line is not the same as access to care. (The Canadians Charter of Rights guarantees health care to all citizens, even though the government has a spotty record of delivering on that promise.)

    Private insurace, like the US is taking off in Canada as we speak. They haven't abandoned their system, but they as admitted that it is broken and are reforming it by moving in the US direction. England's system is despartely borken as well, but the English are resigned to live (and die) with it.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 06/30/2007 @ 3:30pm | ignore this person

    you are a complete idiot.

    They haven't abandoned their system... your words

    I repeat NONE of the single payer countries has abandoned their system. ....my words.

    now everyone knows why you are a complete idiot

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/02/2007 @ 7:47pm

  113. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 07/02/2007 @ 08:27am

    You know your position isn't tenable, and your attempt to make it some simplistic either/or where no children are saved or some (rich people's) children is so contemptible as to not even warrant a response.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/02/2007 @ 8:10pm

  114. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 07/02/2007 @ 2:04pm

    The obvious solution is to make training for healthcare positions available to anyone who wants to do it. The price tag on a medical education acts as a powerful disincentive. One only has to look to the Phillipines to see how culture can influence healthcare manpower.

    Actually, the reality is that public hospitals do in fact work like socialized medicine in respect to medical resources. The fact is that there is a difference in quality of care between those with insurance and those without (and even including those with poor quality insurance from certain HMOs) that exist even in a private system.

    I'm not going to comment on your attempts to pretend that this form of Social Darwinism isn't a moral issue. It's a problem, and I hope you don't have to suffer the consequences for your lack of empathy for a position that you too may occupy at some future point.

    I'm not mixing your arguments at all. I'm stating that making comparisons of health care systems is possible. The study itself is an example.

    Now, the study brings out this interesting issue that there is a whole "The Ones Who Walk Away From Omelas" situation in the U.S. whereas in Canada there is universal availability and associated costs that stem from this decision - a lower level of quality of care as percieved by those recieving it. But, the fact is that perception doesn't mean it is a reality.

    Which brings us back to the main question, the question is how do these different types of healthcare management impact public health? You want to talk about perception of quality of care and comparing all of Canada with those that are insured in the U.S. - as if the uninsured don't matter. It's the central question, and one you keep ignoring. Or to be more precise, you float this idea that all someone has to do is figure out some magic that makes private insurance available to those that currently don't have it - and want to pretend that is an actual argument rather that wishful thinking.

    I'll also point out that you seem to have back-tracked on the impossibility of making comparisons. For clarity, you should identify where you are changing your position rather than have me guess as to how your argument has changed.

    You also don't seem to understand the argument I am making. The fact that a "goverment program" covers those that are uninsurable means there are relevant differences between private programs and the government program - profits to be sure, but there is also a selection bias. Your attempt to cut the concepts along private and government lines is facile and ignores this selection bias - among other things.

    Imagine for a moment that we switched the people with private insurance with those with some form of government care because they don't have insurance. Now, think about what might be different. Is it merely the management?

    No, it isn't. People are on the government program when they have no alternative. Your attempts to make this a private vs. government issue assumes the populations are the same in order to make some statement about the comparative effectiveness of the management of these programs. Once again, interesting that you focus on the issue of comparability when you think it supports you but completely cannot even see it when it runs counter to your argument.

    You need to work on this argument. It's terrible.

    Speaking of facile arguments, let's talk about microloans for a second shall we? It's another example of the importance of relevant differences. "Microloan" programs are successful in Bangladesh because there is a culture of strong social networks. Without these strong social networks efforts to conduct similar programs elsewhere have failed and will continue to do so, primarily because the conscientious will drop out of the collective of five people that his program relies upon lest those that fail to repay their loans undermine the creditworthiness of those that do. Classic tragedy of the commons problems that can only be addressed in a strong social environment.

    Thanks for using this example because it is a good example of the probems of selection bias. It also clearly demonstrates how facile dropping of ideas based on the notion that it will get figured out is no more appealing from the "right" than it is from the "left". I've heard these arguments before - (right) All we need to do is count on the "invisible hand" or (left) the state wil just magically "wither away".

    Sorry, I don't buy magic arguments, and there's a lot of magic in your position.

    Also, please make a note that Muhammad Yunus is Bangladeshi. He is no more Indian than Pakistanis or Nepalis are Indian.

    Also you might do well to examine whether there is a hint of racism here and whether there isn't a hint of classism in some of your other arguments. You can only get rid of these prejudices by noticing that they exist.

    Posted by srjenkins at 07/02/2007 @ 9:57pm

  115. Posted by PLAIN BRUCE 07/03/2007 @ 01:52am | ignore this person

    and be sure to tell us again how your are this doctor. hahahahaha

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/03/2007 @ 09:50am

  116. my proof is that you no longer claim to be a physician after I challenged you. this will be my last word with you. you've got nothing.and you are a crashing bore.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 07/03/2007 @ 2:00pm

John Nichols John Nichols

Breaking news and analysis on political, social, economic and cultural activism that mainstream media commonly ignore.

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» The Beat

Health Care Bill Advances, as Harry Reid Trumps Sarah Palin | The death panelist-in-chief rallied her followers to "KILL THE BILL." But 60 senators decided to follow the real leader.
John Nichols
12 Comments

» The Notion

Palin as the Church Lady | Going Rogue book tour brings passive-aggressive rightwing Christianity to the fore.
Leslie Savan
132 Comments

» Altercation

Slacker Friday | The "Second Amendment" sale; the raving paranoids of the right.
Eric Alterman

» Editor's Cut

An Alternative to Escalation in Afghanistan | President Obama is expected to make a decision regarding his Afghanistan strategy after Thanksgiving.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
79 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

Chongqing: Socialism in One City | China is managing the most important event in the world: the urbanization of half a billion people. Fast.
Robert Dreyfuss
207 Comments

» Act Now!

Toward Copenhagen | A guide to joining the movement against climate change.
Peter Rothberg
65 Comments