The Beat

The Old Time Hypocrisy Hour

posted by John Nichols on 05/15/2007 @ 5:35pm

The various and sundry Republican presidential contenders will be stumbling over one another tonight--as they debate in South Carolina--and in the days ahead to curry favor with the religious right by expressing their sorrow at the passing of the Rev. Jerry Falwell.

It's not that most of the Republican candidates really cared much for Falwell. Aside from Kansas Senator Sam Brownback, the most seriously evangelical of the bunch, none of the GOP runners really qualifies as a Falwell follower in the classic sense.

But the Republicans who would be President care for those whom Falwell claimed to speak for, the millions of fire-and-brimstone Christians in states such as Iowa and South Carolina who are expected to participate in next year's caucuses and primaries. It may be true that Falwell had ceased to be a definitional figure on the Republican right some years ago--perhaps even before he blamed the 9/11 attacks on pagans and feminists.

But few of the Republican candidates will chance it when it comes to praising the preacher.

So get ready for the "Old Time Hypocrisy Hour."

Arizona Senator John McCain got things rolling with a statement released just minutes after the announcement that the man who for many years was the face of evangelical politics in America had died from an apparent heart attack at age 73.

"I join the students, faculty, and staff of Liberty University and Americans of all faiths in mourning the loss of Reverend Jerry Falwell," said McCain. "Dr. Falwell was a man of distinguished accomplishment who devoted his life to serving his faith and country."

Distinguished accomplishment? Would that be when Falwell regularly featured segregationists Lester Maddox and George Wallace on his Old Time Gospel Hour television program in the 1960s? When he condemned the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr. and referred to the civil rights movement as "the civil wrongs movement"? When he opposed sanctions against South Africa's apartheid regime in the 1980s? When he produced an infomercial in the 1990s accusing President Clinton of orchestrating murders of journalists and political critics, even though he would eventually admit that "I do not know the accuracy of the claims"? When he attacked Teletubbies character Tinky Winky as a gay recruitment tool? When he asserted that the Antichrist "must be, of necessity, a Jewish male"?

Falwell is a fascinating and significant figure in American political life, a man worthy of study and serious consideration. But McCain did not always see the preacher as a servant of his country.

Indeed, McCain's praise of the preacher today is a far cry from what the Senator said in 2000, when, in a much-heralded speech in Virginia, he described the fiery Falwell as "an agent of intolerance."

"Neither party should be defined by pandering to the outer reaches of American politics and the agents of intolerance, whether they be Louis Farrakhan or Al Sharpton on the left, or Pat Robertson or Jerry Falwell on the right," McCain declared, as he accused Falwell and others like him of narrow-minded ideologues who would "padlock the Republican Party and surrender the future of our nation."

As he was battling George Bush for the Republican presidential nomination that year, McCain told Tim Russert on MSNBC's Meet the Press that "Governor Bush swung far to the right and sought out the base support of Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell. Those aren't the ideas that I think are good for the Republican Party."

McCain has gone through some changes since the days when he was preaching "big-tent" Republicanism. He learned an ugly lesson in 2000, and he's playing hard to the right this time around. As such, he has made his peace with Falwell.

Last year, the Arizona Senator made his way to Lynchburg, Virginia, to deliver the commencement address at Falwell's Liberty University. Was it a pander to the people by way of the man he once referred to as an "agent of intolerance"? And he got called on it. "Are you freaking out on us?" Daily Show host Jon Stewart, once a McCain fan, asked the Senator. "Are you going into the crazy-base world?"

The short answer is "yes." And McCain will have plenty of company in the rush to the crazy-base world.

While there are serious debates opening up about just how strong a force the religious right remains within a Republican Party that is struggling to position itself for the post-Bush era--after all, prochoice gay-rights supporter Rudy Giuliani is the GOP poll leader of the moment--there is no question that McCain and most of the other contenders fear the wrath of the evangelicals Falwell did so much to lead into the Republican fold more than a quarter-century ago.

That fear is uglier than anything Falwell ever did or said.

It is possible to treat Falwell with respect in death, to recognize that he apologized for some of his more divisive and destructive statements and that he grew beyond his segregationist stances and some of his other intolerances. It is certainly possible to regard him as a political figure of consequence and deeply held views.

But for McCain to heap praise on Falwell at this politically convenient moment is an embarrassing example of how the maverick of the 2000 race has become the predictable politician of the 2008 contest.

---------------------------------------------------------------------

John Nichols' new book is THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"

Comments (262)

  1. he died because he blamed the 9/11 attacks on pagans and feminists. it's not nice to fool mother nature.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 5:47pm

  2. Falwell is dead? Somebody flush the toilet, please.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:04pm

  3. Let's not lose the plot here, gents. This is about John McCain and his political opportunism. He has tied himself so closely to Iraq that he has practically strangled what little he had going for him for his presidential run - and I, for one, am thankful for it. He'd be a disaster in the White House.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/15/2007 @ 6:10pm

  4. Jerry Falwell is probably having a nice chat with Saddam right now.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/15/2007 @ 6:11pm

    Careful Frank, they might be discussing your arrival.....

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 6:17pm

  5. I'd hate to see how Falwell's bad karma balance is being paid off.

    Posted by BlueTexan at 05/15/2007 @ 6:17pm

  6. Let's see how many of you on the left show that capacity.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm

    You have come to the wrong place..

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 6:18pm

  7. Posted by LVLIBERTY1

    It's scary to think there are people this misguided out there walking around.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:18pm

  8. It is certainly possible to regard him as a political figure of consequence and deeply held views.

    You could say the same of Hitler, Stalin.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:21pm

  9. "Let's not lose the plot here, gents. This is about John McCain and his political opportunism. He has tied himself so closely to Iraq that he has practically strangled what little he had going for him for his presidential run - and I, for one, am thankful for it. He'd be a disaster in the White House.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/15/2007 @ 6:10pm "

    McCains presidential journey is in the same place as Edwards...going nowhere...fast....McCain, like Edwards, was finished before he even started...actually Edwrds was done before he started, McCain ending came when he actually announced..

    BTW, how about the smokin' Thompson gave Moore today on video!!!! Thompson could be the guy to beat..

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 6:22pm

  10. Posted by FRANKGRITS

    They really are dangerous. And the Republican Party's embrace of these fanatics is destroying the country. The Repubs use these unthinking zealots to win elections, but they're playing with fire.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:23pm

  11. When you're doing the Lord's work you can do no wrong--no matter how wrong it is.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:27pm

  12. liv, it is s a t i r e.

    do you agree with the abominable statement that sad excuse for a human being made?

    alwell was in most of these instances merely accurately stating the teachings of the satanic Bible.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 6:33pm

  13. liv, you and Falwell wouldn't know the bible if it bit you in the ass. you are a satanic charlatan, the kind Jesus spent his life railing against. I am glad to take up where he left off.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 6:35pm

  14. One can never overestimate my stupidity and ignorance

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 6:35pm

  15. Pharisees!

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/15/2007 @ 6:36pm

  16. BTW, how about the smokin' Thompson gave Moore today on video!!!! Thompson could be the guy to beat..

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 6:22pm | ignore this person

    the actor? hahahahaha

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 6:36pm

  17. Let's see how many of you on the left show that capacity.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm

    You have come to the wrong place..

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 6:18pm

    Neither of you belong here, either, but no one here ever expects you two to get that. I always wonder why you two don't just go start a blog of your own and take Rio and Barry with you? I would think you all would be very happy together.

    Good riddance to the fool Falwell and his speaking on behalf of his jealous, vengeful god (small 'g' intended). Some notable quotes from that pompous windbag:

    * (re: 9/11 attacks) "…throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad…I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America…I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen."

    * (re: widespread criticism for above statement) "[I would] never blame any human being except the terrorists, and if I left that impression with gays or lesbians or anyone else, I apologize…[secularization has] created an environment which possibly has caused God to lift the veil of protection which has allowed no one to attack America on our soil since 1812."

    * (re: the Civil Rights Movement of the '50s and '60s) "The Civil Wrongs Movement"

    * "There's been a concerted effort to steal Christmas."

    * "Grown men should not be having sex with prostitutes unless they are married to them."

    * "If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

    * "Textbooks are Soviet propaganda."

    * "Scientology has a terrible track record of bigotry."

    * "The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country."

    * "The argument that making contraceptives available to young people would prevent teen pregnancies is ridiculous. That's like offering a cookbook as a cure to people who are trying to lose weight."

    * "Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions."

    Seeya, Jerry - I feel bad for your family and those who loved you, but then, I felt bad for them while you were alive, too...

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 6:43pm

  18. "BTW, how about the smokin' Thompson gave Moore today on video!!!! Thompson could be the guy to beat..."

    How funny - more hypocrisy on display - don't the wingnuts usually lose their fucking minds when an entertainer speaks? But Thompson is special to the right wing - exactly why again?

    Thompson -- along with McCain -- was one of the main backers of campaign finance reform legislation that is roundly despised by social conservatives due to the perceived limitations it puts on the kind of grassroots organizing essential to groups on the ideological right (or left).

    And when he ran for the Senate in 1994, Thompson was routinely described as a supporter of abortion rights. A 1994 story in the Memphis Commercial Appeal described Thompson and his Democratic opponent as "basically pro-choice on abortion," and an Associated Press piece from that same year called Thompson a "pro-choice defender in a party with an anti-abortion tilt."

    But in an interview with Fox News's Chris Wallace, Thompson described himself as "pro-life" and called Roe v. Wade "bad law and bad medical science." At some point, Thompson will be forced to explain the seeming contradiction/evolution in his position. (American Spectator is already on the case.)

    Thompson's personal life could also raise questions about his social conservative bona fides. He has been married twice, a fact that could well be neutralized by the fact that Giuliani is on his third marriage while McCain has also been married twice. Among the GOP frontrunners, only Romney has been married just once.

    It's possible -- likely, even -- that Thompson's best day in the race would be the one on which he announces his candidacy. Thompson's reputation as a less-than-enthusiastic campaigner would severely hamstring his chances of catching up to the frontrunners. And once Thompson's star power wore off, his past political pronouncements could complicate his appeal to social conservatives. Even if he was able to clear each of these hurdles, his nomination would be nowhere near a sure-thing. Staying in private life is a lot more lucrative and a lot less work.

    http://blog.washingtonpost.com/thefix/2007/03/the_case_against_fred_thom pson.html

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 6:47pm

  19. Posted by NEW DAWN 05/15/2007 @ 6:43pm

    Disclaimer:

    The comment comment is in no way intended to insult ALL of Christianity or all evangelical preachers - there are plenty of both who have done tremendous good for humanity.

    It is also not to speak ill of the dead... Oh, wait yes, it is.

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 6:56pm

  20. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm

    I'm about as left as you are going to see, and I'm a Quaker. While I respect your right to believe in whatever you wish, I don't respect your right to pretend that fundamentalist evangelical Christianity speaks for Christianity as a whole.

    There is a tradition of Christian social justice - from the Gospel (Matthew 25:31-40) to Franciscians to liberation theology - that is based on an understanding of Christ's focus of "loving your neighbor as yourself". There is also the notion that God does not withdraw himself, it is we that withdraw ourselves from God - when we usurp the position of God for ourselves.

    If you are going to rely on scripture, where, pray tell, do you read about a cover of protection? Any discussion of an anti-Christ means you are interpreting Revelation, "clear" isn't a term that can be used with it. And last I checked, the scriptures also don't say anything regarding communism - although if you want to speculate, some of Christ's words and early Christian practice indicates that they might find a lot to agree with in communism.

    In short, there is a Religious Left. Don't presume that the "left" is only secular humanists and that you can get away interpreting scriptures any way you like without getting called on it.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/15/2007 @ 6:57pm

  21. liv has had no problem with speaking ill of the dead, when he was doing it.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 6:58pm

  22. Upon hearing of Falwell's death, why do I also keep hearing:

    " And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand." (Rev 21:1)

    Ah, to know Falwell continues his fall into the great well...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/15/2007 @ 7:14pm

  23. "Neither of you belong here, either, but no one here ever expects you two to get that."

    And you are the one who should make such a decsion? Exactly why loons and libs should never be in charge of anything where freedom of choice is involved..undrstand the "Fairness Doctine" now...the liberal way of winning....make opposing ideas illegal,Comrade?

    Shame on you..do you belong in America? Can I make such a judgement? neither should you...but no one on the right or understands our freedoms expects you to get it.

    Jackass.

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 7:22pm

  24. One can never overestimate the stupidity, cowardice, and ignorance of LUVVY.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:17pm

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 05/15/2007 @ 7:29pm

  25. One can never overestimate the stupidity, cowardice, and ignorance of LUVVY.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:17pm

    Posted by DR DECIBELS 05/15/2007 @ 7:29pm | ignore this person

    hey, watch it, plagiarism.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 7:35pm

  26. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 7:22pm

    Although, to be fair John, your freedom of speech is not something that The Nation need host. The National Review, for instance, doesn't seem to even have a comments section.

    Which does bring up an interesting question, why aren't you in Townhall.com, Free Republic or something similar? I can't for a moment imagine spending my time reading posts in those forums, so why do you come here? Just a curiosity thing - not baiting you here.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/15/2007 @ 7:41pm

  27. NICHOLS: It is possible to treat Falwell with respect in death, to recognize that he apologized for some....and that he grew beyond....It is certainly possible to regard him as a political figure of consequence and deeply held views.

    Hell has frozen over The Nation! NICHOLS writes some eloquent passages even while letting it be known where he stands! Falwell is not so different from a heck of a lot of folks of that generation when it comes to race! Hail to Apologies & personal growth!

    NICHOLS: "But for McCain to heap praise on Falwell at this politically convenient moment is an embarrassing example of how the maverick of the 2000 race has become the predictable politician of the 2008 contest.

    Nichols just partially UNDID himself w/the above! IF NICHOLS can be (partially) forgiving, why can't McCain? or anyone for that matter? More than a partisan writer, Politics demands far more of its practioners.....especially the capacity to forgive and forget! Howelse are our politicians supposed to get anything done AFTER any election?

    Posted by Happy at 05/15/2007 @ 7:51pm

  28. Frankly, I'm reminded of the line from "Inherit the Wind"...not surprisingly...

    where "Hornbeck" says of later dead "Matthew Harrison Brady"..."How do you write an obituary for a man who died 20 years ago?".

    In Falwell's case, more like 10. After the flop of the Crusade against Clinton (begun with Falwell's notorious "The Clinton Chronicles" lunacy), the old guy was a fave of the talk shows, but essentially dead politically. James Dobson had surplanted him (along with the increasingly bizarre, if not psychotic Pat Robertson) and Falwell retreated to Liberty U and the OTGH show, between Larry King and Hardball 3 minute stints.

    But I'll find another serious of comments more interesting than those of McCain and the Repubs....

    what will the DEMOCRATIC candidates say of Falwell? Ill of the dead...or similar hypocrisy?

    Posted by Mask at 05/15/2007 @ 7:55pm

  29. ....so why do you come here? Just a curiosity thing...

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/15/2007 @ 7:41pm

    I'll jump in w/my thughts here.....For the higher challenge of needing to think more before posting! Among mostly `peers', I'd get sloppy.....as I see it happen often on your side; just as I see it on Right-wing sites by Right posters.

    Two: Echo chambers are not much fun. I wouldn't waste my time online....in person, different story....try to educate and perhaps win over some uninformed views.

    Three: A bit of a debater in those of us that show up in Enemy Camp!

    Posted by Happy at 05/15/2007 @ 8:02pm

  30. It is possible to treat Falwell with respect in death, to recognize that he apologized for some of his more divisive and destructive statements and that he grew beyond his segregationist stances and some of his other intolerances. It is certainly possible to regard him as a political figure of consequence and deeply held views.

    Let's see how many of you on the left show that capacity.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm | ignore this person

    When are you going to recant Liv and apologize for your intolerance and sins?

    I am not sure Falwell's change of heart was all that sincere. Maybe contributions to Liberty U Corporation were declining because of our man of lord was preaching. Always a businessman first.

    Posted by OneVote at 05/15/2007 @ 8:04pm

  31. JR, "Which does bring up an interesting question, why aren't you in Townhall.com, Free Republic or something similar? I can't for a moment imagine spending my time reading posts in those forums, so why do you come here? Just a curiosity thing - not baiting you here.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/15/2007 @ 7:41pm

    Just exercising my freedom of choice..and meeting some of those who(whom) oppose me as much as I oppose them to see if they are as stupid as I think they might be....and the answer is only a few...most are caring for their country as I and inside are decent Americans...we just disagree....and the others do not matter to me.

    Why are you here, I mean most of these guys agree with you most of the time any way?..

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 8:10pm

  32. And to find additional ale drinking buddies accross the land.

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 8:14pm

  33. And to find additional ale drinking buddies accross the land.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 8:14pm | ignore this person

    I'll drink to that. This Bud's for you John!

    Posted by OneVote at 05/15/2007 @ 8:16pm

  34. McCain is really frightening. I am convinced that he is not all there. It will be interesting to see how much he sucks up to the religious right tonight.

    Posted by OneVote at 05/15/2007 @ 8:21pm

  35. "Neither of you belong here, either, but no one here ever expects you two to get that."

    And you are the one who should make such a decsion? Exactly why loons and libs should never be in charge of anything where freedom of choice is involved..undrstand the "Fairness Doctine" now...the liberal way of winning....make opposing ideas illegal,Comrade?

    Shame on you..do you belong in America? Can I make such a judgement? neither should you...but no one on the right or understands our freedoms expects you to get it.

    Jackass.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 7:22pm

    Oh, John, you're so cute for such a big (read wide) fella... Couldn't just take my question as what it was... and so, I laugh at you.

    I am sincerely asking you what purpose you and Liberty think you serve here, for yourselves or anyone else. Almost all of the posters here think you two are jokes, most often wrong, and often seriously delusional. This obviously isn't a friendly forum to your passionate (usually read "moronic") ideals... So, again I ask... Why do you come here?

    You and Liberty always answer that question with something smartass (and idiotic) like "I'm here to educate you" or "for amusement"...

    But that leads me to assume that you also get amusement from going into the womens' restroom, another place you don't have the equipment (mental or otherwise) to handle.

    I was asking a genuine question - you respond by calling me a jackass. You're a joke, Johnny.

    Please point out where in my posts I have ever said that you or LoathesLiberty should be "silenced" before you say just-plain-stupid shit like "And you are the one who should make such a decsion?" I never said I was the "decider" - your idiot choice for President did.

    Or "Exactly why loons and libs should never be in charge of anything where freedom of choice is involved..."... Ah, but we are, John-boy - of both the House and Senate, because the American people realized thar Repubs in power is a bad thing and booted most of them out. I had very little to do with that, but feel free to blame me if you like - I surely support the Repubs being marginalized.

    Or how about "make opposing ideas illegal, Comrade?" Please point out where I have ever suggested such a thing, fantasy-boy.

    And I've also never said you "don't belong" in America, just this board - that's your game, Johnny - aren't you the one who calls folks America-haters and suggests they move to Sweden?

    Get back to me when you haven't been drinking, John. That gives me... oh, somewhere around... forever?

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 8:25pm

  36. ....so why do you come here? Just a curiosity thing...

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/15/2007 @ 7:41pm

    I'll jump in w/my thughts here.....For the higher challenge of needing to think more before posting! Among mostly `peers', I'd get sloppy.....as I see it happen often on your side; just as I see it on Right-wing sites by Right posters.

    Two: Echo chambers are not much fun. I wouldn't waste my time online....in person, different story....try to educate and perhaps win over some uninformed views.

    Three: A bit of a debater in those of us that show up in Enemy Camp!

    Posted by HAPPY 05/15/2007 @ 8:02pm

    Believe it or not - I think this is fair enough.

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 8:28pm

  37. * (re: 9/11 attacks) "…throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools, the abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked and when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad…I really believe that the pagans and the abortionists and the feminists and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People for the American Way, all of them who try to secularize America…I point the finger in their face and say you helped this happen."

    Falwell's words...

    I would argue that it is men like GWB and Dick Cheney and John Maasch and LoathesLiberty and Rio Bravo and Barry who "made 9/11 happen", with their pronouncements of superiority and their lack of accountability and their smug sense of self-righteousness in the face of overwhelming opposition to their ideals - and these same idiots wonder why America is hated (and NOT by us freedom-loving liberals).

    Mind-boggling.

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 8:33pm

  38. Oh, not to mention the huge percentage of the world who views America as an empirical "Christian" aggressor...

    Posted by New Dawn at 05/15/2007 @ 8:34pm

  39. ND,

    OK I stand corrected...I was ranting at the Franks of the world who want to get rid of speech he doesn't like or wants to regulate it with "Fairness Doctorine",... think it would be a problem if the public supported Air America ?..(I am not sure who is going to be the judge on those "guide lines"), as far as who runs congress now...you are correct..it is the Dems, since the repubs were fired and should have been..

    BTW, have you seen the poll BUSHFOOLS doesn't cut and past here?

    Congress approval 29% Bush approval 33%

    I wpould take to much comfort in the ruling party these days..tenuious hold at best.

    No, no drinks tonight..only on week ends or short Fridays when out of town(ieBoston looking for Hman to repoay debt)..

    And a BUD for you..

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 8:43pm

  40. Congress approval 29% Bush approval 33%

    note it does not say dem congress or repub congress. bipartisam disaffection. Bush's ratings are all his own.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 8:50pm

  41. Posted by NEW DAWN 05/15/2007 @ 8:33pm | ignore this person

    I think John and Liv blog this site because they can't find any intelligent dialogue on RW blogsites. Have you ever checked out any RW blogs? Neanderthals all of them....all patting each other on the back and bad mouthing anybody who doesn't agree with the Prez. Its no wonder that if they have the intelligence to at least form sentences that they would find their way here.

    Posted by OneVote at 05/15/2007 @ 8:50pm

  42. To LVLIBERTY1: Yes, as a Christian on the Left, I can respect Mr. Falwell as a person, but I cannot say much good about the work he did, and I can say nothing good at all the powerful role he played in what became the Right's war on the poor. I suppose it all comes down to being able to hate the sin without hating the sinner. At any rate, I believe he misled many, many people, (mis)using Christianity to promote an agenda that directly contradicts the teachings of Christ (most specifically regarding our treatment of the poor/intolerance and stunning arrogance regarding anyone perceived as being different from ourselves). With his considerable help, the Christian message became polluted: compassion became a ridiculed concept, wealth and power became regarded as the true virtues/rewards from God, intolerance and arrogance became our right, passing judgment with an iron fist replaced any notions of mercy and compassion. In short, he played a powerful role in corrupting Christ's message.

    On the other hand, by assuming such a controversial public role, he did cause many people to pick up the Bible to read the teachings of Christ for themselves. The actual teachings focus on selflessness, compassion, non-violence, non-materialism, non-judgmental charity (both in material goods and in attitude) and general human decency.

    Posted by DHFabian at 05/15/2007 @ 9:09pm

  43. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 8:10pm

    Why are you here, I mean most of these guys agree with you most of the time any way?...

    When I think of "left" and the kinds of people that would come to post on The Nation, I imagine a wide diversity of viewpoints and tactics.

    It's like going to a peace march and seeing Veterans for Peace, International Socialists, 9/11 Truthers, ethical humanists, the Spartacus League, Gay Liberation Network, 1960s hippies, Christian pacifists, black bloc anarchists, Revolutionary Communists, and those moms with their kids in the strollers - God bless them! There's giant puppets, a marching band - complete with flag corps, and boring speeches with everyone trying to sneak in their pet issue - Peace in Palestine, unions, revolution or whatever.

    Everybody has their agenda, but we all can agree on one thing - the U.S. should not be in Iraq - and we take that shared belief into the streets. To me, that is what democracy is all about.

    But on the other side of the coin, when I think of the right-wing landscape, I think of fundamentalist Christianity, America-love-it-or-leave-it-ism, and an almost religious belief in markets, typically packaged together in some way. I've had too many conversations end with some variation of "God said it in the bible, that's why", "Show me a better country...", "...that's why free markets..." all of which I take as confirmation that I have wasted my time.

    The left has its dogmas too. But, the main advantage that the left has is that people are more willing to grant the possibility that they may be wrong. You need that before you can have a productive conversation about anything.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/15/2007 @ 9:25pm

  44. Posted by HAPPY 05/15/2007 @ 8:02pm

    I agree with New Dawn. I think these are all good reasons. I'm glad you make the effort to come here.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/15/2007 @ 9:30pm

  45. Jerry Falwell was a man who chose the easiest path to score political points and advance his career as a hellfire moralist televangelist. He brought great comfort to many a people by confirming and consolidating their homophobia.

    Finally, Rev. Falwell chose his own box to dwell in on this planet and sincerely hoped to stay in it for eternity after his death, at least theoretically.

    Posted by cosmicstar at 05/15/2007 @ 9:35pm

  46. And to find additional ale drinking buddies accross the land.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 8:14pm | ignore this person

    I'll drink to that. This Bud's for you John!

    Posted by ONEVOTE 05/15/2007 @ 8:16pm

    Technically, Bud is not an ale, but a lager. The History Channel had a brewing special and stated that 40% of the rice that's imported in the US goes to Budweiser (Anheuser Busch). Not bad for a domestic and wildly popular overseas, but rice is a cheap filler.

    If you want a damn good ale, try a homebrew. I have 5 gallons of a fantastic German Altbier fermented in my basement and ready to be bottled. I add an extra pound of dry malt to boost the alcohol content and to smooth out the bittering hops, plus a few fresh squeezed lemons added after the boiling process. IMO, you can't get a really fresh ale unless you make it yourself. Maasch, if you're interested, I'll send you a few bottles.

    RIP Falwell. Not a follower or a fan, but I hope that the man finds eternal peace. I respect people such as he for his convictions and his faith, but his doctrine has no real place in politics. The man did have a point though...they don't call us "infidel" for nothing.

    Posted by Sliver at 05/15/2007 @ 9:55pm

  47. If you want a damn good ale, go Belgian, there's none finer. for Lager go czech, the original Budweiser would be good if you could get it.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 10:11pm

  48. you can't get a really fresh ale

    er, no. the belgians are bottle fermented. I should also add Bavarian Schneider Weissbier, a wheat beer, also bottle fermented, an amber delight.

    your brew sounds good but it would never pass the Reinheitsgebot.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 10:17pm

  49. The left has its dogmas too. But, the main advantage that the left has is that people are more willing to grant the possibility that they may be wrong.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/15/2007 @ 9:25pm

    SRJ, can you name any instances where a person on the Left has said that their political beliefs "may be wrong"?!?!?!?

    Posted by Mask at 05/15/2007 @ 10:24pm

  50. Thank Jehovah the evil monster Fallwell is dead! Praise Jesus and glory be to the God of the Christians for finally taking this pig from us. I could only be happier if I were there watching him suffer. This pig of a pig hated everyone not like his fat a_ _. Sick, delusional, psychotic hate monger of a fat obese man. So close to God yet he couldn't lose weight. Why not go to Benny Hinn and have that fake lay hands on him? Why not Jerry, perhaps because you are all frauds. Goodbye Jerry! How come these evangelicals can't get God to heal them? Because it's all fake but their hatred of gays, minorities, women and anyone who has a different opinion is real. God bless the part of his body that finally gave out. Pigs! And for those of you that think I should take a higher stand and not call him names, look at his record then shut up! Hypocrites alllllllll. The pig was anti civil rights for Christs sake. He hated everything. Hate, Hate, Hate and more Hate from that pig.

    Now that that's off my chest, I'll have a beer, smoke a joint, make love to my male and female partners and go to bed. Hopefully I'll wake up tomorrow and be able to smile at all the flattering responses to this trash.

    Posted by Lucem ferre at 05/15/2007 @ 10:28pm

  51. Luce, you are too kind. Fallwell was much worse.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 10:36pm

  52. Hey MASK, I'm a flaming Liberal, always have been, even while a born-again christian in my teens and very early twenties. I once thought abortion was right but now I believe it is better to error on the side of caution than to continue having abortions after he 6th week until we are sure when life begins. While I gave up my Christianity, I adopted a very conservative view on abortion.

    Another change from my Liberal history is that of urban sprawl. I am the only Liberal I know who has come to the side of the developers. I believe it is better for the environment to develop a 200 home (one per acre) community than to have a farm that is not producing. Farmers have cut down more trees than anyone and many of them are paid not to plant. When you put a community on that land, guess what? You plant a thousand trees, 5,000 bushes, grass, flowers and the like, bringing the land back to life. Does that answer your question Mask?

    Posted by Lucem ferre at 05/15/2007 @ 10:37pm

  53. Dear God! Now Tammy Fay is crying on CNN that the pig Jerry is dead. She regrets not being able to have settled their differences before he died. WHY NOT TAMMY FAY? For heavens sake, you've had a one on one relationship with Jesus for 50 freaken years and you couldn't bring your self to communicate with that pig before he died! What the he_ _ does Jesus do for you freaks, anyway? It's amazing to me every time I hear these people talk, how stupid they are. Good God! What does God teach these folks? If they can't get it right and they have God's ear, what is someone like me, a man God hates and fears will expose His lies, supposed to do?

    Posted by Lucem ferre at 05/15/2007 @ 10:45pm

  54. Okay, I must admit to a softer side. I've actually always liked Billy Graham, not his paranoid psychotic son, but the old man. I guess I respected Billy more than the others but then his son comes along and preaches evil. Billy, slap that son of yours and straighten him up, please. Little Graham is praising Jerry right now on CNN. What a joke. Can anyone say money train! Jesus never accepted a dime for his message. Jesus attacked the religious leaders not the common folks. Nothing would be different if he were able to come back a 2nd time.

    Posted by Lucem ferre at 05/15/2007 @ 10:50pm

  55. JR...havent quite been a fan of the Wheat beers as of yet. I see them cropping up from time to time, but can't really get past the color first and foremost. Sort of like the feeling I get when I try white chocolate...my mouth tells me its chocolate, but my head doesn't agree. I'll keep trying though...thanks for the suggestions.

    Posted by Sliver at 05/15/2007 @ 10:56pm

  56. sliv, if you can get the Schneider Weissbier, pounce. it has a lovely amber color. my local supermarket now carries a huge selection. of the Belgians by all mean try Duval and when you're feeling flush Orval. the czech that's most available is Pilsner Urquell,enjoy.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/15/2007 @ 11:01pm

  57. While in my opinion, Falwell was a Paulian and thus, a CHINO (Christian In Name Only), I am also convinced of Universal Salvation, the idea that everyone eventually gets in, no matter what. How long that takes is another matter, but Jerry'll get in, as will you and I and BJ Clinton and Luvvy...

    It's truly sad that the followers of Paul have taken over a really great message, though, and perverted it to their distorted view of the world. Let them who have ears, hear.

    Posted by skeletonman at 05/15/2007 @ 11:10pm

  58. SR,

    "But, the main advantage that the left has is that people are more willing to grant the possibility that they may be wrong"

    Really? Like Frank, MT, Will,conshame, co prog....

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 11:22pm

  59. While I can empathize with the grief felt by his family and friends, I am sad to say that I found him to be one of the worst bigots and a very unsympathetic human being.

    Posted by kevin99999 at 05/15/2007 @ 11:22pm

  60. Sliv,

    Thank you for the offer..I have been brewing my own ales, lagering my own lagers, pilsners and mead for 30 years...and mine will pass the Reinheitsgebot test...water, yeast, malted barley and hops..das ist alles... I watched my German grandfather make his own in the basement of his house...he hates "bud" from St Louis and many American beers...called it "schwine wasser fur jeden arschloche"..my spelling in wrong but JR will versteht....

    My mother (German) was the secretary for the president of Schlitz in Milwaukee as a young madchen and with her german had a cake job for years...Great story on the advent of a small bottle called "little Joes" from Schlitz(Joseph Schlitz)..men went to war and beer consumtion was dropping, so they made the beer sweeter and put it in 8 oz bottles to appeal to women...

    anyway..I'll drink 'em if you gott'em...and take JR up on the ales ...we had some real fine ales and a fabulous Austrian dinner one night in NY..

    Posted by john maasch at 05/15/2007 @ 11:38pm

  61. So, I just checked (on Wikipedia, not with a mirror under his nose) but that other evanganut Oral Roberts is still alive!

    I remember listening to him as a kid on the radio begging and pleading for people to "Give till it hurts" to his ministry. Even as a kid I thought all these preachers were just selling Jesus for a buck. If they hadn't had radio and it had been a hundred years earlier I could see them sitting on a wagon pulled by mules going from town to town selling Snake Oil to cure all your ills.

    "A democratic despotism is like a theocracy: it assumes its own correctness." Walter Bagehot

    Posted by COProgressive at 05/16/2007 @ 12:14am

  62. Congress approval 29% Bush approval 33%

    I wpould take to much comfort in the ruling party these days..tenuious hold at best.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 8:43pm

    To set the record straight-- it's because there are still repubs (a solid 20's% approval) in congress--- that congress' polls are lower than herr hsuB, However, the dem poll numbers even though are higher in approval and lower disapproval than repubs and hsuB, the congressional repubs are so low it's dragging the dems down too:

    The Harris Poll. April 20-23, 2007. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

    "How would you rate the job Democrats in Congress are doing: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?"

    Date___________Excellent/Pretty Good______Only Fair/Poor

    4/20-23/07____________35_______________58

    2/2-5/07______________41__________________52

    11/17-21/06___________36__________________57

    The Harris Poll. April 20-23, 2007. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

    "How would you rate the job Republicans in Congress are doing: excellent, pretty good, only fair, or poor?"

    Date___________Excellent/Pretty Good_____Only Fair/Poor

    4/20-23/07___________22________________74

    2/2-5/07_____________26___________________69

    11/17-21/06__________24___________________72

    PRESIDENT BUSH – Overall Job Rating in recent national polls.

    Survey________________Dates______Approve__Disapprv__Unsure__Dif

    Gallup______________5/10-13/07_______33_______62_____5______-29

    Newsweek ___________5/2-3/07________28_______64_____8______-36

    WNBC/Marist________4/26 - 5/1/07______33_______61_____6______-28

    CBS/New York Times__4/20-24/07_______32_______61_____7______-29

    CBS_________________4/9-12/07_______31_______61_____8______-30

    Time________________4/5-9/07________33_______59_____8______-26

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/16/2007 @ 12:35am

  63. 1.God clearly states in the Bible that when we turn away from Him and allow sin to be dominant (as it now is) in our nation; He removes His cover of protection until we repent..

    However, Falwell's statement re 9/11 and New York doesn't automatically follow from that. It's naive to argue that his politics and prejudices didn't color his particular application of Christian doctrine to his interpretation of that event.

    2. His statement on the Anti-Christ was not anti-semitic.

    Might be easier to believe if he hadn't stated, at one point, "God doesn't hear the prayers of a Jew" or his belief that Jews can't go to heaven.

    Thankfully Mandela was too old by the time he gained power to be the force the communists had hoped for when they trained him.

    Right, that's how he became President for five years, because he was a spent force.

    Posted by brunowe at 05/16/2007 @ 05:11am

  64. .God clearly states in the Bible

    she does? which bible? hint, they were all written by men.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 06:33am

  65. He's dead, Gentlemen. Give it a rest

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 05/16/2007 @ 07:40am

  66. why, his evil lives on in his followers.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 08:09am

  67. Hateful men create hateful gods.

    Posted by klosskid at 05/16/2007 @ 08:09am

  68. Of Jerry Falwell, I just want to quote Matthew 16:26.

    "For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?"

    What? indeed. For Falwell, and those like him, traded their souls (if they ever had any) by using Christianity as a political tool with which to swindle money from the poor and gullible, and with which to promote hatred and fascism. They did it for wealth and political power, making of themselves the false prophets warned about by Jesus Himself, preaching blasphemies in His name. And because Falwell and his ilk leave in their monstrous wake hate-filled morons, who vote only for those candidates who spew out the pandering rhetoric they wish to hear, the GOP candidates will stand up and verbally fellate the late and truly vile Jerry Falwell--who took entirely too long to relieve this world of his tiresome presence.

    Posted by ARCHANGEL_M at 05/16/2007 @ 08:17am

  69. 3. I too was against the sanctions against South Africa for the same reason as Falwell. The ANC with Mandela was mostly a communist organization and any right thinking person would not be anxious to see the communists gain such a powerful foothold in Africa. Thankfully Mandela was too old by the time he gained power to be the force the communists had hoped for when they trained him.LUVDESPOTS

    So, the phantom threat of communism overrides the rights of blacks to live free. I guess if one believes in flying horseys, one can get to this bizarre conclusion.

    An American Taliban has fallen. I will waste no tears. Falwell helped bring about this divide we have in this country. He could have helped heal, but he used hate and fear to get filthy rich. His camel made it in before he will.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 08:44am

  70. he died because he blamed the 9/11 attacks on pagans and feminists. it's not nice to fool mother nature.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/15/2007 @ 5:47pm

    LOL!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 08:48am

  71. . Well The Reverend Jerry Faldwell dying of a heart attacks seems as ironic as Bush dying of a brain injury . Since conservatives seem to use so little of either .Of cource Faldwell was being eulogized by bigot and compulsive gambler Bill Bennet must be nice to convince of your superiority and have enough money to squander on gambling . Trying to think of anything faldwell accomplished of any value is really a daunting task He seemed mainly interested in evading an honest days work getting obscenely wealthy and of he never was known to use that money to actually help anyone. I remember he was onced summoned by ABC 's Nightline to discus the viabilty of the claim of microbial fossils in a meteorite from mars . Well he aint a microbilogist or biochemist or geologist so why the media asked his opinion like he was the oracle of Delphi is truly astounding . Asking his opinion on scientific quandaries is worst than asking the queer eye guys assistance/ advice for anything electronic mechanic or anything other than frivilous home decor or fashion . To tell the truth I was hoping for him to live long enough to see him proven wrong about life being unique to this planet.

    Posted by hd70642 at 05/16/2007 @ 09:06am

  72. Well The Reverend Jerry Faldwell dying of a heart attacks seems as ironic as Bush dying of a brain injury

    more LOL.

    too bad the pretzel failed in it's attempt. We can all honor the pretzels memory, though.

    Now we only have to get rid of Dobson, Weyrich, Robertson, Roberts ..... The Taliban live on.

    Scripture supporting Falwells positions. Scripture opposing Falwells positions. Gee, maybe the Bible isn't the Font of All Truth after all.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 09:11am

  73. LvLiberty-What Falwell said about 9/11 was ignorant,but your claim that it was biblical was correct since everything is biblical.That's what makes the bible rather pointless.Can you prove that everyone who died during 9/11 were committing these particular "sins"?If your god is angry at particular groups then why doesn't he do something that affects those groups?Maybe he does.There has been a serious increase in tornadoes and floods in the bible belt so it seems your kind must be the real sinners.Maybe it's because you are judgmental which violates the teachings of Jesus.There is no future anti christ as the first sentence in revelations clearly states.It says that these things will happen shortly and millions upon millions of idiots conclude that shortly means thousands of years from now.You change the definitions of words in order to appear to be correct.Nero was the anti christ mentioned in revelations and he's dead.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/16/2007 @ 09:21am

  74. You know I half expect to see this (we've gotten close)...

    "Falwell was a terrible person. He was hateful and enjoyed when people died (Iraqis, gays, etc)....I hated him and am glad he's dead!"

    and the poster would never see the hypocrisy!

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 09:22am

  75. AS a self proclaimed Hypocrite:

    "I hated him and am glad he's dead!"

    comfortable in my skin. How about the rest of you?

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 09:26am

  76. IF we kill Bin Laden:

    "I hated him and am glad he's dead!"

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 09:27am

  77. Technically, Bud is not an ale, but a lager. The History Channel had a brewing special and stated that 40% of the rice that's imported in the US goes to Budweiser (Anheuser Busch). Not bad for a domestic and wildly popular overseas, but rice is a cheap filler.

    If you want a damn good ale, try a homebrew. I have 5 gallons of a fantastic German Altbier fermented in my basement and ready to be bottled. I add an extra pound of dry malt to boost the alcohol content and to smooth out the bittering hops, plus a few fresh squeezed lemons added after the boiling process. IMO, you can't get a really fresh ale unless you make it yourself. Maasch, if you're interested, I'll send you a few bottles.

    Posted by SLIVER 05/15/2007 @ 9:55pm | ignore this person

    Thats amazing on the rice consumption of Anheuser Busch. I had no idea of that Bud was popular overseas. European brewmeisters getting some serious challenge from American microbrewers. I like the amber ales - finding the darker ales to be too bitter - and generally prefer lager over the ales. I've never really had good homebrew - but it sounds like a great hobby wherein you can enjoy the fruits of labor!

    It sounds like Maasch is quite the brewmeister as well. Okay, you guys bring the home brews and I will bring the sausages & German potatoe salad!

    Posted by OneVote at 05/16/2007 @ 09:29am

  78. Saddam:

    " I hated him and am glad he's dead!"

    But, Iraq is not that much better off without him. Because the new leader, Chimpy, is incompetent. Chimpy, there are more than one kind of Muslim, Strateegery is not the same as tactics, etc, etc, etc

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 09:29am

  79. SLiver has one redeeming quality.

    Fascinating.

    Is it possible to make a good homebrew with ones head up ones ass?

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 09:31am

  80. Is it possible to make a good homebrew with ones head up ones ass?

    Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 09:31am | ignore this person

    We should all get together and have a homebrew taste context.

    Right Wing brewmeisters versus Left Wing brewmeisters....I can see it now.

    Posted by OneVote at 05/16/2007 @ 09:48am

  81. Oh, goodie' all of us drunk out of our asses and arguing politics. I'll happily attend, but all firearms need to be checked at the door.

    Posted by The Goods at 05/16/2007 @ 09:55am

  82. Oh, goodie' all of us drunk out of our asses and arguing politics. I'll happily attend, but all firearms need to be checked at the door.

    Posted by THE GOODS 05/16/2007 @ 09:55am | ignore this person

    this somewhat describes my meeting with Maasch, except we checked our politics at the door. and I was the guest of the generous salesman.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 10:15am

  83. well, he's dead then? bless him but good.

    fundamentalist/evangelical christians are a menace to the liberties and rights of all others in this country. they are constantly trying to use the government to shove their exclusive, narrow, bassackward medievalism on all others then screaming bloody martyrdom when opposed. and falwell was prime example.

    good riddance. now just a few more million and we'll have the earth to ourselves.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 05/16/2007 @ 10:27am

  84. Distinguished accomplishment? Would that be when Falwell...

    Um, McCain probably was not referring to these things you list. So the answer is no.

    Falwell was a man of distinguished accomplishment. He founded a university (how many of us can say that?). He was more effective in fighting for his beliefs than most of us could ever dream of. He genuinely felt (I think he was mistaken) that in his actions he was doing good for his country. He was able to bring together people of disparate faiths as a cohesive political force (perhaps the Left could take some hints from him). I disagreed with virtually everything Falwell said, but I don't equate "disagreement with me" with "evil."

    Nichols praises Falwell in this very article, so how can Nichols criticize McCain for doing the same?? Can he not see that the phrase "dinstinguished accomplishment" is a way of saying "he was very effective in doing what was right as he saw it," hardly high praise?

    Posted by BlueSpark at 05/16/2007 @ 10:34am

  85. I was the guest of the generous salesman.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF

    Yeah, and I bet he was able to write it all off, too. Did he keep the receipts? Did he use a company card?

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 10:36am

  86. "You have come to the wrong place.."

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 6:18pm

    (Amen.)

    Posted by drhammer at 05/16/2007 @ 10:41am

  87. of course it's a write off. think about it, he's on the road on business. I would and do the same thing.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 10:44am

  88. Oh, goodie' all of us drunk out of our asses and arguing politics. I'll happily attend, but all firearms need to be checked at the door.

    Posted by THE GOODS 05/16/2007 @ 09:55am | ignore this person

    LOL.....okay....that might be a good idea. Good food, brew and politics.....should have fireworks enough without firearms!

    Posted by OneVote at 05/16/2007 @ 10:51am

  89. This morning's funnies.....from CarbonCreditKillers.com:

    Carbon Debits - Increasing Your Carbon Footprint...

    Making a carbon debit is a delicate matter taking both skill and time. Our carbon debiting process starts with our FECON spinning shredder and a driver who has vendetta against trees. Add any tree and about 20 seconds and a carbon debit is born!

    On a Mission - Taking Away Al Gore's Carbon Credits... We are on a mission to take away every one of Al Gore's meaningless carbon credits by simply providing carbon debits. Help us make this dream a reality by purchasing one of the packages below. Don't let Al Gore assuage his guilt with meaningless penance, heap it back on with carbon debits – every one of which we will let him know about.

    Do We Really Kill Trees? The short answer is "Yes". We run a burgeoning business of clearing trees from grasslands so the Antelope won't be scared. As silly as that previous sentence sounds it is the truth. So, you can have a clear conscience that you removed a terror inducing tree in an effort to improve the antelope state of mind – which makes them better targets during hunting season. Although we don't completely follow the logic of the game and fish department on this, we go along with it.

    T-Shirt - Only $14.95!

    Posted by Happy at 05/16/2007 @ 11:10am

  90. "Oh, goodie' all of us drunk out of our asses and arguing politics. I'll happily attend, but all firearms need to be checked at the door.

    Posted by THE GOODS 05/16/2007 @ 09:55am | ignore this person

    LOL.....okay....that might be a good idea. Good food, brew and politics.....should have fireworks enough without firearms!

    Posted by ONEVOTE 05/16/2007 @ 10:51am |

    I would love it..come to my back yard would be even better..

    JR, thanks for your kind words...and looks like MT, from your post, is concerned as to whether it was a write off or not...concerned about other peoples money, must be a habit for him,

    My expenses are arranged differently by me...they are part of my compensation, part of my pay, not separate, so no, they are not a write off, but an out of pocket purchase...before tax.

    and I don't have any fire arms, although my son hunts, so I may have to buy one in order to check it,,

    and ONEVOTE, do not bring sausages,, bring wurst..bratwurst, mit schwine fleish und schnitzel gemacht.....und kraut..

    Sausage is to wurst as hot dogs is to real meat...and brotchen instead of buns...

    JR, how does one get an umlaut on the post?

    Posted by john maasch at 05/16/2007 @ 11:12am

  91. My expenses are arranged differently by me...they are part of my compensation, part of my pay, not separate, so no, they are not a write off, but an out of pocket purchase...before tax. Posted by JOHN MAASCH

    Sure they are.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 11:27am

  92. Christianity and beer.

    (What Would Jesus Brew?)

    Posted by drhammer at 05/16/2007 @ 11:28am

  93. Upon JENKINS' request, JOHN MAASCH has weighed in on why he cruises these precincts -- to find drinking buddies. As this seems true by all accounts, we will give him a "pass" on this matter even if we must hold our noses and reach for barf-bags in response to his rancid commentaries.

    But over on the dark edge of the universe ... We still wait to learn what brings LVLIBERTY1 out of the woodwork. It is particularly interesting to ponder since, in contrast with MAASCH's relative (if forced) joviality, LVLIBERTY1 recently referred to Nationites as "sub-human". Yup, the self-appointed "Jesus Man" said it. It is a characterization that hardly seems to be a spontaneous slip of awkward phrasing as it is of a piece with his stated "theological" view that pure, undistilled evil may assume a human form like some kind of costume or Matrix scenario.

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 11:28am

  94. and ONEVOTE, do not bring sausages,, bring wurst..bratwurst, mit schwine fleish und schnitzel gemacht.....und kraut..

    Sausage is to wurst as hot dogs is to real meat...and brotchen instead of buns...

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/16/2007 @ 11:12am | ignore this person

    Ah....my bad. Epicurean distinctions are not my strong point, but I wouldn't dare to show up to a German brew fest with just plain old sausages, but you have helped me with my butcher shop list. You definitely sound like you know what you are doing John. Gosh...I am getting hungry!

    Awesome!

    Posted by OneVote at 05/16/2007 @ 11:29am

  95. JR, how does one get an umlaut on the post?

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/16/2007 @ 11:12am | ignore this person

    this may or may not work for you. I hit option and u, then the letter. this works for all letters. lemme know.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 11:31am

  96. Would anyone care to (re-)read this offering from the self-appointed Holy Man. Correct me if I am wrong, but perhaps other posters can confirm or dis-confirm my impression that LVLIBERTY1 is staunchly defending the actions that occasioned the 9-11-01 massacre (in response to JOHANNES' reference to Falwell's sick, sick, sick-o defense of the same)?

    BTW JR,

    Falwell was in most of these instances merely accurately stating the teachings of the Bible. You on the other hand like so many on the left would prefer people of faith to be hypocrites to their faith. That would then make us acceptable in your sight?

    1.God clearly states in the Bible that when we turn away from Him and allow sin to be dominant (as it now is) in our nation; He removes His cover of protection until we repent.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 11:34am

  97. I'll have to dig into my archives for my old "Deaths Head Stout "recipe. Winner of two taste offs featuring over 30 brews each time, both homebrew (extract and whole grain) and store bought.

    No firearms? How about an anvil shoot?

    http://www.2camels.com/national-anvil-shooting-contest.php

    BARRY can catch.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:39am

  98. Posted by GLENN LEMON 05/16/2007 @ 11:34am

    didn't you know that God drew all of those funny little lines on the globe? Then he anointed America as His chosen land, for the chosen people, after he had most of the natives killed off because they were not using the land correctly.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:45am

  99. GlenLemon-This country is no more "sinful" now than it was in the past making his statement silly,to say the least.I wonder what "sin" caused Pearl Harbor?What would pagans,feminists,gays,etc. have to do with the World Trade Center,anyway?That was a symbol of capitalism which means that capitalism must be the "sin" if one were to view this logically,but they weren't about to blame capitalism since Falwell profited from capitalism.The bible belt is being hit with many extra tornadoes and floods,but do you hear them mentioning that fact?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/16/2007 @ 11:47am

  100. I wonder what "sin" caused Pearl Harbor?

    electing FDR to a third term?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 11:50am

  101. Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 11:45am

    CRAB,

    Theologically speaking, I was aware that Jesus was an NRA-member card toting American, likley blond, who drove over anything that got in his way with a gas guzzler, particularly homeless assholes and uppity 'hos. The Prince of Peace was also quite the tycoon who liked to show off his white-collar bling within and beyond his estate (run on alien labor). Jesus was an anti-Commie warrior par excellance who would have hesitated not to wipe Red China's population of yellow cockroaches off the face of the earth with a clutch of nukes reigining death from the sky, as a fitting prelude to The Rapture.

    When he was not shooting up abortion clinics like a rampaging Cho on the rag to demonstrate firm committment to his "pro-life" agenda, Jesus was so firmly commitetd to State power and its associated death penalty that he volunteered himself for capital punishment. "Jump in, the water's fine", he seeemd to say.

    It's all there in the Good Book, if you know how to read the passages in invisible ink ...

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 11:56am

  102. JR-God seemed to favor Roosevelt.God knew that it would take a liberal to win such an important war.Conservatives can't defeat their fellow conservatives.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/16/2007 @ 11:57am

  103. "Christianity and beer.

    (What Would Jesus Brew?)

    Posted by DRHAMMER 05/16/2007 @ 11:28am"

    Wine...from water.

    Posted by john maasch at 05/16/2007 @ 12:01pm

  104. here's two of liv's most droll posts. Jesus was in favor of capital punishment. come the rapture Jesus will likely use nukes. honest, that's what he said. oh and he doesn't believe in evolution either. unbelievable.he makes the taleban look like Camus.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 12:03pm

  105. this may or may not work for you. I hit option and u, then the letter. this works for all letters. lemme know.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/16/2007 @ 11:31am

    Option?

    Posted by john maasch at 05/16/2007 @ 12:06pm

  106. Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 11:39am

    LOL

    Posted by john maasch at 05/16/2007 @ 12:08pm

  107. Pearl Harbor was about oil. so was Hitler's war against the soviets.the war against France was about revenge for Versailles. the war against Poland was to get the jews. the war against england was to make friends with them. honestly. Hitler thought he had a lot in common with the brits. well they had the same royal families. Hitler seemed to believe that in operation Sealion he would be greeted as liberator by the people.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 12:10pm

  108. I wonder what "sin" caused Pearl Harbor?

    electing FDR to a third term?

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/16/2007 @ 11:50am

    Electing a cripple to the presidency.

    It says in the Bible, no cripples need apply. no blemishes, no blind.

    "Whosoever ... hath any blemish, let him not approach to offer the bread of his God. For whatsoever man he be that hath a blemish, he shall not approach: a blind man, or a lame, or he that hath a flat nose, or any thing superfluous, Or a man that is brokenfooted, or brokenhanded, Or crookbackt, or a dwarf, or that hath a blemish in his eye, or be scurvy, or scabbed, or hath his stones broken; No man that hath a blemish of the seed of Aaron the priest shall come nigh to offer the offerings of the LORD made by fire: he hath a blemish; he shall not come nigh to offer the bread of his God. ... Only he shall not go in unto the vail, nor come nigh unto the altar, because he hath a blemish; that he profane not my sanctuaries." -- Leviticus 21:17-23

    But, i am sure i take this out of context.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 12:11pm

  109. Maasch, sorry, I'm a mac. try the one closest to the space bar.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 12:12pm

  110. Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/16/2007 @ 12:08pm

    HUGE schism in the blacksmith community over anvil shooting. On one side, the reality of insurance for an operation that involves gunpowder and 200 lb chunks of (sometimes unknown varieties) of iron flying up to 400 feet in the air

    On the other side: tradition, culture of the south post War of Northern Aggression.

    People are twisted. And i am late for work, again.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 12:16pm

  111. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/16/2007 @ 12:03pm

    JOHANNES,

    The only reason that crazed raving assholes like LVLIBERTY1 and others cut from the same cloth even mention religion is because they believe it is "fire proof" and insulates them from examination of their heinous hatreds and prejudices. All criticism can, they suppose, be deflected with an invokation of "anti-religion" or "anti-christian".

    But this is true only if we normal people allow it to be. This is why I urge all of you out there to deny any religionist a "safe haven"/"no criticism" zone that the crazies duck into. DO NOT WINK AT AND PARTICIPATE IN THIS RANCID FORM OF POLITICAL CORRECTNESS DURING ENCOUNTERS WITH RELIGIONIST CREEPS OF ALL STRIPES WHO ARE RETROGRADE AND WHOM YOU KNOW TO BE WRONG.

    Dump on a religion today just to get into the practice of doing so for when it is really necessary. You may even wish to wipe your ass for real on a religious text in order to experience how deep-down good it feels to be an iconoclast. Ready yourself for confrontations with creeps and weirdos in which you are unbridled by self-imposed constraints from policital correctness -- and enjoy getting some blood on your knuckles, their blood, in the ensuing verbal donnybrook.

    Of course, this does not apply to genuinely religious people who understand spirituality, human dignity and equality. It's the loud-mouthed fakes like 9-11 lover Farwell who need to be smoked out of their caves. And we shall not hand over the sheild of political correctness so that they may hide behind it when we know they are retrograde, agressive, sinister lying creeps capable of the whole menagarie of anti-social behavior.

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 12:22pm

  112. Posted by GLENN LEMON 05/16/2007 @ 11:56am

    Google "Supply side Jesus". See if you can find Frankens take. You'll laugh your ass off.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 12:23pm

  113. Posted by MASK 05/15/2007 @ 10:24pm

    SRJ, can you name any instances where a person on the Left has said that their political beliefs "may be wrong"?!?!?!?

    I know a lot people with "leftist" leanings that I think of as seekers. At one point in their life, they might have found something that works for them - but then life changes and their beliefs and political viewpoints change too. For some, you need to look over a longer period of time, but I think in the main people are at least more willing to listen to other points of view - even if it primarily takes the form of challenging it.

    Personal example, I have an in-law that has a visceral dislike of religion that many people on the left have - whether due to the rampant hypocrisy, intolerance and other features some organized forms take. But, I also can see that this is changing somewhat, and she isn't immediately put off if the word Jesus enters the conversation. You have to watch pretty carefully to see the change - and I'm not even sure she is aware of it.

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/15/2007 @ 11:22pm

    Really? Like Frank, MT, Will,conshame, co prog....

    I can't speak about these people in particular - but we should acknowledge that there is a self-selection bias for posting in The Nation forums, that the medium has limits and that we are seeing them in a particular point in their lives. We miss the whole trajectory, and you really need a better sense of that before you can really say anything.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/16/2007 @ 10:52am

    I come here to try to understand the life experiences that leads a rational person to come to the opposite conclusions that I have come to.

    And I think Mary's post is perhaps the most interesting. She is clearly a seeker. I don't understand how she can say categorically that raising income taxes hurts the poor - especially when you are discussing progressive taxes that are designed to be more equitable with the benefits of society. I don't understand how you can argue from a utilitarian point of view that abortion hurts society. I'd love to find out what she means by collectivism and what it means to have "too much" of it. We could probably have an interesting discussion around the relative costs of drug prohibition - and probably much to agree on regarding guns.

    I'd love to hear more of her perspective - and I think it is the first time I've seen a post of hers. But the part that really stands out is that, in my experience, people that are seekers, like Mary, are more rare in the right. I also think the right has a culture of intolerance that works against seeking. Ann Coulter and her How to Talk to a Liberal (If You Must) comes to mind. That's not something I want to have any kind of association with.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 12:25pm

  114. If you want a damn good ale, try a homebrew. I have 5 gallons of a fantastic German Altbier fermented in my basement and ready to be bottled. I add an extra pound of dry malt to boost the alcohol content and to smooth out the bittering hops, plus a few fresh squeezed lemons added after the boiling process. IMO, you can't get a really fresh ale unless you make it yourself.

    Sounds quite delicious, Silver-- and I'm not even much of a beer / ale fan!

    Posted by habiba at 05/16/2007 @ 12:29pm

  115. Posted by GLENN LEMON 05/16/2007 @ 12:22pm | ignore this person

    yes, they can always blame the book.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 12:32pm

  116. Posted by SRJENKINS 05/16/2007 @ 12:25pm

    Sorry, SRJ, but I find the same (if not more) dogmatists on the Left as on the Right. (several examples here today).

    It's why I see "the Middle" as strong (and typically more libertarian than either Left or Right), because they don't stick with the 30% on one side or the 30% on the other side who never admit a mistake in policy or move much outside their own ideology even if faced with contradictory evidence.

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 12:33pm

  117. And I think Mary's post is perhaps the most interesting. She is clearly a seeker.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/16/2007 @ 12:25pm

    SR,

    You are clearly inclined to see the good in people. But please be informed for the sake of accuracy that the last time "Mary" (real name: Darrin) was here about a year ago, what he proclaimed himself to be "seeking" was smut and prostitutes as I recall.

    As for MBB's claim that equality "kills", British investigator Richard G. Wilkinson has reviewed scores of studies in his books detailing that high inequality (as in GINI index) correllates strongly with sharply reduced lifespans for poorer people. But we would not want carefully vetted facts to dilute dogma ...

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 12:39pm

  118. Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 12:23pm

    CRAB,

    LOL!!!

    Interestingly, the comic book style of the Franken-Simpson collaboration actually uses a Jehovah's Witness staple and boomerangs it back on them!

    Posted by Glenn Lemon at 05/16/2007 @ 12:41pm

  119. Mr. LVLIBERTY1...Your little diatribe about the teachings of the bible simply confirms what a scam organized religion is. Much like the constitution one can justify just about anything using biblical text. Slavery, war, gay bashing, racism, murder, rape, stealing, destruction of the environment, suppression of human rights, etc. And this insanity is not limited to christianity as the many millions who have died in the name of islam have proven.

    Jerry Falwell was a religious hustler who got rich off of promoting fear. Fear of the gays, teletubbies, liberals, secularists, inter-racial marriage, and pornographers. In a nutshell that's all religion is...fear. Fear of going to hell...fear of "evil doers"....fear that the end of the world is coming...without the element of fear there is no need for religion. Falwell recognized that better than most and played on those fears by infiltrating the political spectrum where he found like minded minions like Reagan, Bush I and Bush II...

    I give credit to Falwell for his successes and his impact on society, but the impact was very negative and destructive in it's intolerance and exclusiveness of people with different beliefs and souls supposedly created by the same god he wanted us all to believe in. My only hope is that wherever he is, he now realizes just how wrong he was.

    Posted by alejandro at 05/16/2007 @ 1:02pm

  120. Mr. LVLIBERTY1...Your little diatribe about the teachings of the bible simply confirms what a scam organized religion is. Much like the constitution one can justify just about anything using biblical text. Slavery, war, gay bashing, racism, murder, rape, stealing, destruction of the environment, suppression of human rights, etc. And this insanity is not limited to christianity as the many millions who have died in the name of islam have proven.

    Jerry Falwell was a religious hustler who got rich off of promoting fear. Fear of the gays, teletubbies, liberals, secularists, inter-racial marriage, and pornographers. In a nutshell that's all religion is...fear. Fear of going to hell...fear of "evil doers"....fear that the end of the world is coming...without the element of fear there is no need for religion. Falwell recognized that better than most and played on those fears by infiltrating the political spectrum where he found like minded minions like Reagan, Bush I and Bush II...

    I give credit to Falwell for his successes and his impact on society, but the impact was very negative and destructive in it's intolerance and exclusiveness of people with different beliefs and souls supposedly created by the same god he wanted us all to believe in. My only hope is that wherever he is, he now realizes just how wrong he was.

    Posted by alejandro at 05/16/2007 @ 1:05pm

  121. Posted by GLENN LEMON 05/16/2007 @ 12:39pm

    Why would someone come to The Nation for smut and prostitutes? I mean, these things aren't particularly difficult to find...as for the Gini Index, that's exactly the kind of metric that tends to get dropped when people start talking about taxes. Oh, and you might want to move to less expensive and more comfortable toilet paper...there are easier ways to make that point.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 1:59pm

  122. Jesus who has been granted all authority in Judgment will unfortunately judge me straight to hell upon your death.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 1:59pm

  123. LvLiberty-I don't see any posts that say "I hate God".I love God,but don't believe your god exists.You don't decide anyones afterlife and have no say in who goes where after death.You have no clue what comes next and guessing is a waste of time.If you'd get informed you'll discover that most people on the left are Christians.Numerous studies have been done on the subject and all of them have leftists at about 85% Christian.It's Falwell's fault for saying the ignorant thing he did about 9/11.If you're going to say silly things then expect a little ridicule.The bible/koran have been used to do great evil and pointing that out is appropriate.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/16/2007 @ 2:08pm

  124. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:54pm

    Last I checked, George Fox wasn't big into pastors, associate or otherwise. While George Fox is an important early member, founder is a bit strong of a word. Even if he were the founder, he wouldn't recognize someone that claimed authority other than the authority within - even George Fox would question George Fox's authority. Care to try again?

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 2:09pm

  125. Neither Fallwell nor myself nor any genuiine evangelical christian has ever hated anyone on the left;

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:39pm

    Fuck you. You are a liar and a coward. You and Falwell will have a grand old time with Beelzebub. A real family re-union. Blind to your own hypocrisy

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 05/16/2007 @ 2:11pm

  126. Posted by MASK 05/16/2007 @ 12:33pm

    You may have a point. Dogmatists abound - no matter what your political persuasion. I would also add that the "middle" tends to be just as dogmatic because the "middle" is often just another way of saying you support the status quo - who don't want to do anything that might mean things might change.

    I see this as an even bigger problem than extremes on either the right or the left.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 2:14pm

  127. well to no one's surprise including my own, the God hating leftists have been having an anti-christ orgy on this thread for the past 24 hours. ---Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:54pm

    It should come as no surprise to anybody that LVLIB associates "hating God" with people disliking or yes even hating Jerry Falwell.

    It's the same substitution formula he uses by which if you oppose Bush or the Iraq War, you "hate America".

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 2:17pm

  128. It is truly sad to see such hatred against fellow Americans merely for believing the Bible to be the word of God and following after Jesus. Sad, but not surprising.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:54pm

    You have it backwards, buttmonkey, it is not hatred for BELIEF - it is hatred for the actions so glaringly CONTRARY to those "beliefs" that pisses us off. Take for instance, your hypocritical, judgmental, and arrogant self. But then you don't give a fuck, so why bother?

    And you DO NOT "follow after Jesus". Are you completely blind, or is it the arrogance?

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 05/16/2007 @ 2:23pm

  129. I see this as an even bigger problem than extremes on either the right or the left.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/16/2007 @ 2:14pm

    Well SRJ, the thing about extreme "status quo'ism" is that atleast the situation isn't getting any WORSE, if it's not getting any better.

    Frankly, a self-critical liberal or self-critical conservative would get my vote in an instant...if I could find one that was willing to put forth an agenda and then be willing to GUT it, wipe it off the map if it was failing...but that rarely happens.

    We get the "It just needs more time"..or "It needs more money"...or "It's being sabotaged by (insert boogeyman here..."corporations/plutocrats" or "unions/Godless liberals")" and almost never "Yep, we were wrong and we're either going to fix it QUICKLY or get rid of it."

    It's a pitfall that the Democrats fell into in 1993, with Clinton and a Democratic Congress...and that Republicans fell into in 2001 with Bush and a GOP Congress. It's probably the reason that for years now, it seems as if the ONLY even remotely successful Presidencies are when it's "divided government" (Clinton post-94, Reagan, Nixon, Ike)...and failures occur when it's "one party rule" (Bush-43, Clinton with "Hillary-care", Carter, LBJ).

    If it's Hillary in 2009 and a Dem Congress and they don't learn that lesson.....???

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 2:24pm

  130. (Reposting as apparently this went back in time to last night after I posted it two minutes ago?!?!?!?....hehe)

    I see this as an even bigger problem than extremes on either the right or the left.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/16/2007 @ 2:14pm

    Well SRJ, the thing about extreme "status quo'ism" is that atleast the situation isn't getting any WORSE, if it's not getting any better.

    Frankly, a self-critical liberal or self-critical conservative would get my vote in an instant...if I could find one that was willing to put forth an agenda and then be willing to GUT it, wipe it off the map if it was failing...but that rarely happens.

    We get the "It just needs more time"..or "It needs more money"...or "It's being sabotaged by (insert boogeyman here..."corporations/plutocrats" or "unions/Godless liberals")" and almost never "Yep, we were wrong and we're either going to fix it QUICKLY or get rid of it."

    It's a pitfall that the Democrats fell into in 1993, with Clinton and a Democratic Congress...and that Republicans fell into in 2001 with Bush and a GOP Congress. It's probably the reason that for years now, it seems as if the ONLY even remotely successful Presidencies are when it's "divided government" (Clinton post-94, Reagan, Nixon, Ike)...and failures occur when it's "one party rule" (Bush-43, Clinton with "Hillary-care", Carter, LBJ).

    If it's Hillary in 2009 and a Dem Congress and they don't learn that lesson.....???

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 2:26pm

  131. Libertyliar is nothing but a Pharisee.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 2:27pm

  132. Indeed. Falwell is gone, but the damage he has done is irrevokable. I am a neo-pagan, and a homosexual. Personally, I am totally disgusted, not as much by Falwell's hate-mongering (his weapon was hate, not fear, because hate is the logical conclusion to conservative Christianity.) What most disgusted me was how few people challenged him.

    Clearly the idea is that the bible is a sacred text, and those who preach (selected parts of) it should never be challenged.

    So I suggest that we force children in school to learn the bible. But we should not start with Genesis or Revelation. We should show kids exactly how relevant and useful to their daily lives the bible actually is by making them start with the book of Philemon.

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 2:33pm

  133. It is actually a simple theory. Those who use the old law against their enemies are, as "Do unto others as you'd have them to do upon you," and "Judge not, lest you get judged yourself," are clearly liable to fulfill the law themselves. When this happens, Christ's mercy ceases to function for them.

    Put another way, if you must use the old testament law against your enemies, then you'd better not eat a hamburger or wear two different types of clothing, and you'd certainly better not get a tattoo. Are you conservatives actually longing for the return of being permitted of dragging your children to the priests to be stoned to death? It's amazing how selectively use of the old rabbinic law is, isn't it?

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 2:37pm

  134. I am only guessing here, but from what I know about Falwell, he mostly cared about what God thought of him, not so much what people thought of him. By now, he knows what God thinks of him, and our opinions matter not a bit.

    Posted by Sawdust at 05/16/2007 @ 3:19pm

  135. Excellent article on the late ayatollah of American Christofascism. I think that it is pious not to criticize the dead too severely. However, when the departed one has lived a life of character assasination and bigotry, preaching hatred and intolerance while dividing America into two camps, "the saved" and "the pagans", the person Jerry Faldwell should be denounced for his arch-villany. His evil lives on in the brain-washed zombies of his diploma mill and in the excruciatingly ignorant and inhumane politics of the (faux) religious right. As he will re roasting away in the same place as Ronald Reagan, it could be a really hot summer.

    Posted by deepblue at 05/16/2007 @ 3:20pm

  136. What hypocracy? Falwell laid blame for every social ill on people like me. Am I supposed to feign sorrow at his passing to avoid offending your tastes?

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 3:46pm

  137. You know, Luvvy was dead for like, 45 minutes (or was it 7 hours, one can't keep these things straight), once (he actually made this claim, stating that he awoke in the morgue).

    Maybe he could check on where Jerry is now, and how he is doing.

    Posted by skeletonman at 05/16/2007 @ 3:56pm

  138. Hatred? More like disgust, contempt, revulsion.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 4:02pm

  139. It's just a celebration. Nothing wrong with that. Goodbye, good riddance.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 4:03pm

  140. ....the late ayatollah of American Christofascism. I think that it is pious not to criticize the dead too severely. However, when the departed one has lived a life of character assasination and bigotry, preaching hatred and intolerance while dividing America into two camps, "the saved" and "the pagans", the person Jerry Faldwell should be denounced for his arch-villany. His evil lives on in the brain-washed zombies of his diploma mill....

    Posted by DEEPBLUE 05/16/2007 @ 3:20pm

    Clearly, you are NOT only not "pious", you are the extremiste opposite! This, coming from NO FAN of the departed Rev.

    BTW, IF the Rev. led such an effectively "evil Life" as you and others spit forth, a more objective person could eaily say, he was a total failure! Heck, not even one of his enormous flock was willing to strap a bomb on his/her body to go blow up some (fill in victim group)! You and the Far Left get labeled as "Loonies" for a @#$% good reason!

    Posted by Happy at 05/16/2007 @ 4:09pm

  141. Just curious....if Michael Moore died...would the roles be reversed here?

    Right--laughing and spouting off "I'm glad the porker is gone", etc.?

    Left--Defending Mike by the faithful, and others saying "You guys are really sick with hatred"?

    And any comparison to THIS thread re-posted would be met with "It's COMPLETELY different, he didn't harm anybody!"...follwed by opponents saying "Yes, he did, he lied and falsified things in his films!"

    Frankly, I don't care that Falwell's gone, didn't care when he was here. This is America, and the guy had a perfect right to say anything he wanted (even harmful or false things) and people had the right to either follow him, ignore him, or oppose him in any legal manner they wished and dispute what he said with facts and logic.....same for Mr. Moore.

    But I'm curious as to whether we'll hear moans of "the baseness of the political discourse" or "spewing hatred instead of rational discussion" from EITHER party...

    or as likely, hypocrisy indeed when it comes to Falwell from those on the Left who claim their opponents are "all about hatred"....and when Mr Moore's time comes, hypocrites like RIO et al, who talk about "liberal hate", will be whooping and hollaring with as much glee at Michael's passing?

    I'm not saying I'm better or worse than these folks...just saying...I'm curious.

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 4:18pm

  142. "What hypocracy? Falwell laid blame for every social ill on people like me. Am I supposed to feign sorrow at his passing to avoid offending your tastes?

    Posted by KRISTEV 05/16/2007 @ 3:46pm "

    Just curious..who are people like you?

    Posted by john maasch at 05/16/2007 @ 4:41pm

  143. Wouldn't it be great for all of us to rise above?

    Posted by FREIHEIT

    Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah, Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah...

    Everybody join hands.

    Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah, Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Kum ba yah, my Lord, Kum ba yah Oh Lord, Kum ba yah...

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 4:53pm

  144. Posted by MTSPENCE05 05/16/2007 @ 4:53pm

    Oh, I'm saving this one.

    MTSPENCE poo-poo'ing a call for less coarseness in the political dialogue. Bound to come up sometime in the future, and he'll totally flip (especially if some "Nation" writer calls for it).

    hehe

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 4:56pm

  145. You know where you can put it, box of rocks.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 4:58pm

  146. For me, this is moving on. It permits me to vent my outrage out, so that I can get rid of it. What further reason would I have to detest him now that he cannot hurt us verbally (and spiritually) any longer? So this is like a shedding process . . . no, I should not say that. The conservatives who pollute these threats would just misinterpret that to suggest all liberals are reptiles.

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 5:14pm

  147. I mean threads

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 5:15pm

  148. Posted by MASK 05/16/2007 @ 2:26pm

    Now if we can only expand on that lesson and truly divide the government. A block of Greens, some socialists (more like Bernie!), maybe even some Populists, Libertarians and one or two from the Marijuana Party.

    Some goes for the right, why say Republican when you really mean you belong in the Constitution Party? More parties means more truth in advertising on what you stand for. We could use more of that.

    If that's what you mean when you say divided government, then you have an idea I can get behind.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 5:22pm

  149. liberty, what Fallwell said after 9/11 was so hideous, that we haven't even scratched the surface in the condemnation he and you deserves.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/16/2007 @ 5:37pm

  150. David Kuo, onetime higher-up in the office of faith-based initiatives, just had an excellent commentary on NPR (audio not available on their site until 7:30). He indulges in very little emotion and offers a good fact-based assessment of Falwell's legacy. The facts he recites are sobering. Since this much vaunted resurgence of religious influence on public policy that Falwell started, everything he railed against has gotten worse. Family values, vice and "morals", basic honesty and trust in one's fellow man - all these have declined in the interim. Kuo speculates that Falwell's single statement that 9/11 was God's judgement against immoral Americans probably kept more people away from Christ than the total membership of every megachurch in the country.

    Falwell was a fine example of how NOT to bring the glory of God into this world.

    Posted by MyParadigm at 05/16/2007 @ 5:58pm

  151. I am only guessing here, but from what I know about Falwell, he mostly cared about what God thought of him, not so much what people thought of him. By now, he knows what God thinks of him, and our opinions matter not a bit.

    Posted by SAWDUST

    Too bad there's no after life. Once you die all that remains are the memories people have of you.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 6:00pm

  152. Posted by MYPARADIGM

    I heard that. Falwell failed to accomplish his stated goals because he failed to understand the source of virtually all the problems he cited. The decline of the family, unwed mothers, drug/alcohol abuse, etc. are symptoms of the problem, not the problem itself. Rather than back politicians that would address these problems, he endorsed Ronnie, et al. and the fabric of our society continues to fray.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 6:06pm

  153. Why not just let new con repubs have the night? They like living in the dark, no evolution or science, no constitution too. So from 10 PM to 10 AM we play by their rules or lack there of. From 10:00:01 AM to 9:59:59 PM we play by progressive dem rules.

    Only one rule applies to both.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/16/2007 @ 6:32pm

  154. Let's try poverty for a start.

    Posted by Kristev at 05/16/2007 @ 6:39pm

  155. Not my idea, but a good one. We should build a latrine above Falwells grave so that all that want to piss on him have a sanitary way to go about it.

    Watch out!!! Telletubbies are gunning for your kids so they can sway the the children into the homosexual lifestyle!!! Run away! Run Away!

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 6:47pm

  156. What's the source MT?!

    Posted by FREIHEIT 05/16/2007 @ 6:33pm

    Imperfect breeding, starting with the Original Two. Lots and lots of inbreeding when your stock comes from the smallest pool.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 6:48pm

  157. What's the source MT?!

    Posted by FREIHEIT

    How poverty is pushing families into divorce By Adele Horin March 25, 2004

    The divorce rate has stabilised among the middle class but is increasing among the poor, explaining why many separated fathers pay little or no child support.

    A new study reveals that financial hardship is a major cause of family breakdown. Low-income parents are more likely than others to break up - and they remain poor after the split.

    Most of the 700,000 fathers registered with the Child Support Agency pay little child support because their incomes are very low, says the study published in People and Place, the journal of Monash University's Centre for Population and Urban Research.

    More than 40 per cent of the separated fathers in 2001 had a taxable income of less than $15,600. Most were unemployed or in marginal jobs. Overall, despite general economic prosperity, nearly 68 per cent of the separated fathers had incomes of less than $32,000.

    As a result, their former partners also experienced desperate financial circumstances. Three-quarters of the mothers were raising children on annual incomes of less than $15,600 plus $2000 to $3000 in family tax benefits.

    The study says an estimated 90 per cent of separated parents are registered with the agency. Unless registered, women cannot get the federal government parenting payment.

    Bob Birrell, a co-author of the study, Financial Outcomes for Parents After Separation, said: ``People think the agency acts in a draconian way to take money out of the pockets of men. The reality is most separated and divorced blokes are on such low incomes, they pay very little towards the wellbeing of the mother and their children.'' (http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/03/24/1079939718989.html)

    It doesn't require much imagination (or intelligence) to understand the negative impact poverty has on families. It of snowballs into drug/alcohol abuse, crime, teenage pregnancies, etc.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 7:23pm

  158. Posted by LVLIBERTY1

    Pharisee.

    Posted by mtspence05 at 05/16/2007 @ 7:24pm

  159. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 7:12pm

    What Falwell and millions of other Christians including myself have done throughout the history of Christianity is to follow in those footsteps and make the same declarations.

    Christ also said love your enemies (Matt 5:43, Luke 6:27), endure persecution for the sake of justice (Matt 5:10), and most importantly, love your neighbor as yourself (Mark 12:30).

    If you like what Paul has to say, how about: Do not repay one bad turn for another (1 Thess 5:15) and you must honor everyone (1 Pet 2:17).

    And you never said, where in the Bible did you read about God's "cover of protection", the anti-Christ being Jewish and communism? I don't find mention of them anywhere in mine.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 8:14pm

  160. Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 8:49pm

  161. If anyone is in Paradise, it's Jerry Falwell. Jerry Falwell is the most perfect example of a Christian that you can find.

    You want to know who is in Hell? Little kids who wouldnt believe Jesus's lies, and bow down, kiss the boots of the Spiritual Fuhrer.

    Jerry Falwell believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Bottom Line. He didnt need to do good "works". Hah! Works. Works is a false doctrine. Thinking you can get into Heaven by doing good deeds. Hah! Only if you believe that Jesus is the Son of God - otherwise you will be burned alive forever in the Lake of Fire by God!!! Falwell is in Heaven.

    Falwell believed the made up lies in the Bible. Bottom Line.

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 8:54pm

  162. Falwell = Jesus Christ's favorite human

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 8:55pm

  163. Falwell's 911 comment: the moment the Evil Voice of Christ was truly heard by all the world.

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 9:00pm

  164. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:54pm

    Thanks for mentioning the California Yearly Meeting. Apparently, it changed its name to Southwest in 1986 and didn't become affliated with Evangelical Friends International until 1995.

    What I find peculiar, and I am hoping you can help me understand here, is how a Quaker "church" can have a description of values that does not include peace. To quote George Fox:

    "...they filled the House of Corrections with persons that they had taken up to be soldiers and then they would have me to be captain of them to go forth to Worcester...[they] asked me if I would not take up arms for the Commonwealth against the King. But I told them I lived in the virtue of that life and power that took away the occasion for all wars, and I knew whence all wars did rise, from lust according to James's doctrine...I told them I was come into the covenant of peace which was before wars..."

    How can one be Quaker and not value peace? Can you explain that - because it eludes me.

    http://www.efcsw.org/downloads/who_we_are.pdf

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 9:03pm

  165. Falwell: King of the Christians

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 9:06pm

  166. the God hating leftists have been having an anti-christ orgy on this thread for the past 24 hours.

    As Jesus commanded us, we forgive you; however unless you repent of your blasphemies and hate, Jesus who has been granted all authority in Judgment will unfortunately judge you straight to hell upon your death.

    Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/16/2007 @ 1:54pm | ignore this person

    Brilliantly stated! Folks, this is the truth. This is the real religion. If you dont bow down and worship Jesus, He is going to "unfortunately" (he he) "judge you straight to Hell".

    As LVLIBERTY1 has stated. Jesus will burn you alive, forever - you'll want to die, but Jesus will not make it that easy. Forever is a long time for FALWELL and LVLIBERTY1 to be swimming in the river of milk and honey, playing harps, singing hymns, reading scripture, wearing white robes - let alone forevever is a long time to be burned alive by Christ.

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 9:16pm

  167. Posted by CONSHAME 05/16/2007 @ 9:16pm

    Do you have a point?

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 9:18pm

  168. "unfortunately"? The one part on which I disagree with LVLIBERTY1.

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 9:18pm

  169. I was agreeing with LVL - except for the "unfortunately" part.

    Posted by conshame at 05/16/2007 @ 9:19pm

  170. If that's what you mean when you say divided government, then you have an idea I can get behind.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/16/2007 @ 5:22pm

    Parliamentary government or do we keep what the Founders gave us?

    Posted by Mask at 05/16/2007 @ 9:26pm

  171. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/16/2007 @ 5:32pm

    I don't assume most Republicans are like Ann Coulter. She just represents an ugly face of a larger trend. I'm not particularly a fan of Michael Moore. I think he is more about promoting himself than the issues he raises. But, I don't think he serves in the same capacity as Coulter, Rush and O'Reilly. It's an unfair comparison.

    That said, I think you would have to provide a lot of evidence to support that Falwell has special spiritual insight and just used these crude forms to communicate to the masses. I think it is more probable to argue he was misguided.

    As for probabilities and science, you really don't know what the future will bring. Perhaps in that period of time, humans will figure out how to recharge stars, cause a premature expansion of the sun through a science experiment 100 years from now, or explode the earth itself in 10 years.

    Now, you may say God knows. But, then you have the whole body of questions of whether knowledge equals predestination. I can be in a helicopter and know that a car crash is going to occur on the highway - but my knowledge of it doesn't cause it to happen.

    Anyway, a few thoughts off the top...

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 9:34pm

  172. Posted by MASK 05/16/2007 @ 9:26pm

    Last I checked, there is nothing in the Constitution that says Congress has to be run by one of two parties.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/16/2007 @ 9:36pm

  173. "It is possible to treat Falwell with respect in death, to recognize that he apologized for some of his more divisive and destructive statements and that he grew beyond his segregationist stances and some of his other intolerances. It is certainly possible to regard him as a political figure of consequence and deeply held views. "

    Yeah, John, tell that to Chris Hitchens, who just made a complete ass of himself on Hannity & Colmbs....He really hammered Falwell as a fraud and crook, even as his general nasty demeanor begged the question of whether he wasn't hammered himself.....

    I enjoy reading Hitchens, And I believe he's one of the most talented writer alive, but his blind hatred of all things religious is a fundamental flaw, if you'll excuse the expression..

    Posted by davebarlett at 05/16/2007 @ 10:27pm

  174. Ah yes, the great die off begins. Hamster conservatism is going out and Falwell's passing is the first note of the whimper.

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 10:48pm

  175. Can one hate something that does not exist? I don't hate God. It's not possible. I did hate Falwell for the vile and vitriol he preached to the sheep. He deserves his legacy as a Great Divider.

    the comparisons between Michael Moore and Falwell deny description. It is an absurdity that could only be conceived in the minds of the wmd believers and the Osama/Saddam connectors. And those that believe in winged horseys.

    Oh how I love the group "W" bench!

    Gets me away from the American Taliban.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 10:56pm

  176. I don't see genuine evangelical Christians spewing the garbage mouth vitriol of the leftists like these, including you JR.

    Not my idea, but a good one. We should build a latrine above Falwells grave so that all that want to piss on him have a sanitary way to go about it.

    Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 6:47pm

    Well, glad I made the top tier!!

    But alas, the Moral Majority spewed its vitriol for years. And it lingers today in the 12h century attitudes towards homosexuality, sex and control.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:00pm

  177. MARYBRET, a little tidbit I just came across:

    By Elizabeth Williamson and Christopher Lee Washington Post Staff Writers Wednesday, May 16, 2007; Page A03

    Insurance agents in at least 39 states used illegal or unethical tactics to sell private Medicare plans, in some cases enrolling the dead and mentally incompetent, impersonating Medicare representatives, and using personal information stolen from federal records, according to interviews and documents released to Congress.

    "Medicare Advantage" plans and enrollments have exploded in the past year, touted by the Bush administration as a valuable alternative to Medicare, the federal health insurance program for seniors.

    But Senate investigators have found that improper sales practices inspired by insurers offering high commissions have drawn civil and criminal cases, damaging the credibility of a program that some have called a model for revamping the Medicare system.

    "There's a lamentable lack of oversight when it comes to the sales practices being used to sell Medicare Advantage plans to our seniors," said Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.), chairman of the Senate Special Committee on Aging.

    ..A Medicare advisory panel recently reported that the plans cost the government an average of 12 percent more than care provided through traditional Medicare.

    "If the goal were to privatize because you get more efficiency and lower cost, you could see why that makes sense. But none of those things are happening," said Bonnie Burns, a policy specialist with California Health Advocates, a Sacramento-based consumer group that works with that state's health insurance counseling program. "When you have a product few people understand, a very high commission and very short enrollment period, very bad results are just a given."

    ...Regulators nationwide have issued consumer warnings this year after Medicare recipients reported being pressured into joining plans that caused them to lose benefits or access to their doctors, or obligated them to pay unaffordable fees.

    Yep, Chimpy done good.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:03pm

  178. it lingers like the mist pressing up against the edge of a crypt...

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:03pm

  179. dying to get in

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:03pm

  180. Posted by WILL C. 05/16/2007 @ 10:48pm

    Falwell will lead the way to the Great Wheel in the sky. And take his cut at the gate.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:05pm

  181. Interesting that so many of the cons, who proclaim that the repub party has lost its way, now defend one of the very causes of that waywardness.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:07pm

  182. "Every day in every city and town across America, progressives get up in the morning and go about the work of fighting racism and homophobia, defending the environment, organizing trade unions and tackling corporate hegemony. "

    and every day Falwell fought the dread liberal agenda.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/16/2007 @ 11:11pm

  183. Falwell will lead the way to the Great Wheel in the sky. And take his cut at the gate.

    Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 11:05pm

    It's absolutly astounding that he died. You would of figured him to evaporate.

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:13pm

  184. ....it lingers today in the 12h century attitudes towards homosexuality, sex and control.

    Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 11:00pm

    Interesting that so many of the cons, who proclaim that the repub party has lost its way, now defend one of the very causes of that waywardness.

    Posted by CRABWALK 05/16/2007 @ 11:07pm

    CRAB,

    But you do prefer Falwell's "12th century attitudes" better than the 7th century attitudes of Islamic fundamentalism, right? Too bad the Rev. couldn't just preach "death to women found w/non-relative males, death to homos, death to infidels, off with his hands, etc."! (NOTE: sarcasm! Don't stone HAPPY)

    You are mostly wrong on the repubs defending Medi-anything! The way I look at it, the more fraud the better! People need constant reminders of how Big Gov't programs lead to many piggies at the trough! You actually think it would be otherwise if Kerry is the POTUS?

    Posted by Happy at 05/16/2007 @ 11:23pm

  185. RIO, with republicans running the show, there is no regulatory system.

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:29pm

  186. you know rio

    we all might be able to believe this... Wrong, they or the Demoncrats have NO say about state insurance regulation

    if you hadn't said this... except as respects laws and acts that congress and the President may pass on a national level that has an effect on the industry and its participants.

    or this... and practices deemed criminal at law which may then be prosecuted on either a state or federal level.

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:50pm

  187. because the second two thises make the first this... Wrong, they or the Demoncrats have NO say about state insurance regulation

    not very believable

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:52pm

  188. but you're on a roll. Don't let me stop you

    Posted by Will C. at 05/16/2007 @ 11:53pm

  189. Falwell, fall well, falls well. falling wells, failling well, fail we'll fail we willingly fail.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/16/2007 @ 11:58pm

  190. Falwell, a nice guy with an evil tongue? Should he not have cut it out to be good all over?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:15am

  191. and if two thises weren't enough. How about this additional this... with the exception of National flood Insurance those laws do affect insurance products, policy language, product delivery etc..

    Posted by Will C. at 05/17/2007 @ 12:18am

  192. i love this

    Posted by Will C. at 05/17/2007 @ 12:18am

  193. Does not religion = insurance? Universal insurance!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:31am

  194. Bwahahahah. I laugh at myself for the premium.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:32am

  195. Posted by RIO BRAVO 05/17/2007 @ 12:38am

    So you petition the Lord for security? Payback, upgrades? No, neither does a piece of paper creates your soul, nor takes it away. Know yourself or know nothing but mimicry

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:48am

  196. You know what GOD believes-- then you are greater.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:52am

  197. The New Con Hypocrisy Second

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 12:54am

  198. Sounds like Rio not so Bravo. Are you a bad person?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:16am

  199. God likes me. We're best friends.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:17am

  200. You know what GOD believes-- then you are greater.

    Posted by HSUBFOOLS 05/17/2007 @ 12:52am

    "They've been taken advantage of for long enough. The pearly gates are closed to people like Falwell AND to people who think the way he does.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/16/2007 @ 11:21pm

    Sounds like Frank does...

    Posted by john maasch at 05/17/2007 @ 01:18am

  201. Funny how new cons like to blame others for their own failings.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:19am

  202. people like Falwell AND to people who think the way he does.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/16/2007 @ 11:21pm

    Sounds like Frank does...

    Posted by JOHN MAASCH 05/17/2007 @ 01:18am

    So you think Falwell and people that think like him are GOD?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:21am

  203. You'd be right, but not for the reason of the question.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:27am

  204. No, not at all, but think they know GODs mind and judgement results.

    Posted by john maasch at 05/17/2007 @ 01:27am

  205. But then what isn't...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:28am

  206. The omnipresent, all knowing, alpha-omega, omnipotent-- GOD. If so, what isn't GOD. Even the space between what is

    Kinda makes one humble.

    Why not so too new cons?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:36am

  207. I saw your face in the morning sun Oh, I thought you were there I heard your voice as the wind passed me by Silently, whispering my name

    So many things that I wanted to say Forever left untold I still remember the tears that you shed Over someone else

    Our love could never die All I can do is cry Save a little prayer for the fallen one

    There is a light down at memory lane Slowly fading away Still holding on to the dreams torn apart I will follow my heart

    Our love could never die All I can do is cry Save a little prayer for the fallen one

    Still on my own, chasing the sun Of a time long ago The shade in my heart, tearing apart Everything that I long for

    I saw your face in the morning sun Oh, I thought you were there I heard your voice as the wind passed me by Whispering my name

    Our love could never die All I can do is cry Save a little prayer for the fallen one

    The Fallen One, HammerFall for Falwell

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 01:46am

  208. Atheists do not believe in the existence of God, but God does not believe in the existence of atheists!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 05/17/2007 @ 12:49am

    What a great strategy for sliping past the pearly gates. To try to stop your entrance to heaven god would have to admit he believes you exist.

    Posted by Will C. at 05/17/2007 @ 08:31am

  209. seems like everyone would have figured out by now that the anti christ thing isn't happening.I wonder how many more centuries it will take for all to figure it out.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/17/2007 @ 08:32am

  210. How long will fear and greed go together like peanut butter and jam?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 05/17/2007 @ 08:36am

  211. Jerry Falwell was a racist and a bigot who unfortunately had far too much political influence on the Christian right. Strange we haven't heard Bush comment much on his passing. I guess that's because he is now of no further use to the Republican party.

    Posted by Hernova at 05/17/2007 @ 08:51am

  212. anti Christ? try anti christian. that's you libert. you show no understanding or sympathy for others. you presume to judge others, and your hatred of others is thinly disguised. all you religious education is a fraud. there will be no rapture, Christ is not coming back, and there are no pearly gates. when we die we become a feast for worms.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 08:53am

  213. Strange we haven't heard Bush comment much on his passing.

    oh but we did. a typical mealymouthed endorsement of this charlatan.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 08:54am

  214. the only do it infinitely better than government can.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/17/2007 @ 08:59am | ignore this person

    like Enron?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 09:05am

  215. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/17/2007 @ 09:16am | ignore this person

    oh, you were talking about China. my mistake. I thought we were discussing our country.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 09:37am

  216. Christianity has more than the blood of the witches on its hands.crusades, slavery, genocide, all practiced by devout christians.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 09:39am

  217. Marybretbrad,

    You are on a roll this morning and well spoken..it is unforunate that the only one who will respond to you is JR, and then he is one of the thinking posters here...this is so far over Franks head so I understand his never responding, or if he does it will be an amazing statement of some sort related to Limbaugh and "Hammering Will" might give 9 posts , all one lines long with nothing there.

    Good job this morning.

    Posted by john maasch at 05/17/2007 @ 10:08am

  218. Crusades, slavery and genocide are all a lot older than Christianity.

    nonsense, they are called crusades because christians did them.

    I have no god. I do believe in a community of man, I believe in tolerance. the gov't is us, we get the kind of gov't we deserve. the gov't serves us, which is not something you can say about corporations. when gov't fails, we can change it. when all powerful and very rich corporations fail we need gov't to protect us. gov't is justice. when we are harmed by corporations only our democratic gov't can save us. when they poison us, cheat us, who else speaks for us? the church?

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 10:12am

  219. let me just say that despite the impression I seem to have created, that religion, including christianity, is often a force of the good. you have heard of liberation theology. I even accept that libert does many works of charity, when I'm feeling charitable. I just don't ignore the dark side. and I will not place one religion above all others.

    "Christianity was feeding the hungry and clothing the indigent long before any government was."

    this is complete nonsense. before christianity, there was judaism, which holds charity as one the highest virtues.

    "t is unforunate that the only one who will respond to you is JR, and then he is one of the drinking posters here."

    Prost.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 10:22am

  220. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/17/2007 @ 09:53am

    MB, a question....you'd apply that same apologia of the history of Christianity to....Islam, right?

    Posted by Mask at 05/17/2007 @ 10:23am

  221. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/15/2007 @ 6:14pm - initial claims Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/17/2007 @ 01:31am - supporting scripture

    God clearly states in the Bible that when we turn away from Him and allow sin to be dominant (as it now is) in our nation; He removes His cover of protection until we repent.

    The supporting scripture from the psalms only talks about God as a refuge - nothing about withdrawing it until we repent. It is also interesting that you use Job to support this position when the sufferings of Job are not because of his sins - "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one like him on earth, a blameless and upright man who fears God and turns away from evil." (Job 1:8)

    Granted, you could make the argument that if it could happen to Job, then how much more so for sinners. But it seems to me the there are two points of Job that should be considered: "Who is this that darken counsel by words without knowledge?" (Job 38:2), and "Will you even put me in the wrong? Will you condemn me so that you will be justified?" (Job 40:8).

    The question I put to you is that by making statements like the one above, are you encouraging people to repent like Job or are you acting like Eliphaz, Zophar and Bildad - pretending you know the mind of God when you are clouded in ignorance yourself?

    I think using Daniel and saying anything is clear is a bit of a stretch. It's a book of visions that seem mostly rooted in a particular point in historical time. And my reading of 2 Thess 2:1-4 - man of lawlessnes, could be read (as well by those closer to the time) as man of sin, not necessarily an anti-Christ, Beliel, or other figure you like. Again, anything but clear.

    As for communism, the thrust of the critique of communism is that religion reenforces heirarchies and it acts as an opiate that stops people from making positive changes in this world. In so far as Christianity does this, it validates communism.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 10:31am

  222. thinking=drinking at happy hour...prost

    Posted by john maasch at 05/17/2007 @ 10:32am

  223. LvLiberty-What did the victims of 9/11 do that made them bigger sinners than anyone else?It's a fact that not all were pagans and feminists.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/17/2007 @ 10:35am

  224. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 05/17/2007 @ 09:21am

    It is interesting that you don't mention East Timor, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Vietnam, Iraq, and the many places the U.S. has been causing suffering around the world. I don't see any talk about our sale of munitions, Israel-Lebanon? Our outsourcing of poor labor conditions, environmental pollution, and a wide variety of other undesirable things.

    A mean, if you are going to bring other countries into the equation, you could at least do so with an even hand.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 10:39am

  225. The American Taliban speak.

    We are at war with Islamic fundamentalism, but tolerate Christian fundies, even praise them as seen here.

    what a crock.

    Darin, did you miss the part of the article about Chimpies medicare supplemental costing 12% more than regular medicare? This is Chimpies Plan, not the states. And wih tax cuts, money for enforcement is lacking. This is on Chimpies head, don't try and lay blame elsewhere, like the cons usually do.

    ..A Medicare advisory panel recently reported that the plans cost the government an average of 12 percent more than care provided through traditional Medicare.

    "If the goal were to privatize because you get more efficiency and lower cost, you could see why that makes sense. But none of those things are happening," said Bonnie Burns, a policy specialist with California Health Advocates, a Sacramento-based consumer group that works with that state's health insurance counseling program. "When you have a product few people understand, a very high commission and very short enrollment period, very bad results are just a given."

    ...Regulators nationwide have issued consumer warnings this year after Medicare recipients reported being pressured into joining plans that caused them to lose benefits or access to their doctors, or obligated them to pay unaffordable fees.

    Once again, theory meet reality.

    hows that war going?

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:10am

  226. Read David Kuos book " Tempting Faith"to see how badly you have been used.

    Has poverty dropped? No, it has risen under chimpy. has abortion been outlawed? No. Has terrorism decreased? No, it has increased. has guvt corruption decreased under Christian rule? Hell no!! Chimpy is on his way to matching Reagan in convicted and indicted cohorts.

    Used.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:17am

  227. Posted by SRJENKINS 05/17/2007 @ 10:39am

    which country sells more arms to other countries? The Christian United States.

    when all the Christians can come to agreement, then I will start to take your cult seriously. Till then, it is just a mash of cults.

    African Methodist Episcopal

    African Methodist Episcopal Zion (

    African Orthodox Church

    American Baptist Churches USA

    Amish

    Anabaptist

    Anglican Catholic Church

    Anglican Church

    Antiochian Orthodox

    Armenian Evangelical Church

    Armenian Orthodox

    Assemblies of God

    Associated Gospel Churches of Canada

    Association of Vineyard Churches

    Baptist

    Baptist Bible Fellowship

    Branch Davidian (

    Brethren in Christ (1)

    Bruderhof Communities (11)

    Byzantine Catholic Church

    Calvary Chapel

    Calvinist

    Catholic (

    Cell Church (

    Celtic Orthodox

    Charismatic Episcopal Church

    Christadelphian

    Christian and Missionary Alliance

    Christian Churches of God (1) Christian Identity (6) Christian Reformed Church (4) Christian Science (9) Church of God (Anderson) (3) Church of God (Cleveland) (4) Church of God (Seventh Day) (1) Church of God in Christ (2) Church of God of Prophecy (1) Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (149) Church of Scotland@ Church of South India (1) Church of the Brethren (8) Church of the Lutheran Brethren of America (2) Church of the Nazarene (17) Church of the New Jerusalem (4) Church of the United Brethren in Christ (2) Church Universal and Triumphant (3) Churches of Christ (33) Churches of God General Conference (5) Congregational Christian Churches (3) Coptic Orthodox@ Cumberland Presbyterian Church (1) Disciples of Christ (13) Episcopal Church@ Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church (4) Evangelical Congregational Church (5) Evangelical Covenant Church (1) Evangelical Formosan Church (1) Evangelical Free Church (3) Evangelical Lutheran Church (31) Evangelical Methodist Church (1) Evangelical Presbyterian (1) Family, The (aka Children of God) (9) Fellowship of Christian Assemblies (1) Fellowship of Grace Brethren (3) Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches (2) Free Church of Scotland (4) Free Methodist (6) Free Presbyterian (2) Free Will Baptist (4) Gnostic@ Great Commission Association of Churches (2) Greek Orthodox@ Hutterian Brethren (4) Independent Fundamental Churches of America (1) Indian Orthodox@ International Church of the Foursquare Gospel (3) International Churches of Christ (7) Jehovah's Witnesses (33) Living Church of God (7) Local Church (7) Lutheran (39) Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod (18) Mar Thoma Syrian Church (7) Mennonite (26) Messianic Judaism@ Methodist (19) Moravian Church (3) Nation of Yahweh (3) New Frontiers International (1) Old Catholic Church@ Orthodox (96) Orthodox Church in America@ Orthodox Presbyterian (2) Pentecostal (25) Plymouth Brethren (4) Presbyterian (71) Presbyterian Church (USA) (17) Presbyterian Church in America (10) Primitive Baptist (4) Protestant Reformed Church (11) Reformed (14) Reformed Baptist (8) Reformed Church in America (4) Reformed Church in the United States (3) Reformed Churches of Australia@ Reformed Episcopal Church@ Reformed Presbyterian Church (6) Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (5) Revival Centres International (4) Romanian Orthodox@ Rosicrucian@ Russian Orthodox@ Serbian Orthodox@ Seventh Day Baptist (4) Seventh-Day Adventist (51) Shaker (12) Society of Friends (42) Southern Baptist Convention (14) Spiritist (2) Syrian Orthodox@ True and Living Church of Jesus Christ of Saints of the Last Days (4) Two-by-Twos (3) Unification Church (12) Unitarian-Universalism@ United Church of Canada@ United Church of Christ (14) United Church of God (3) United Free Church of Scotland@ United Methodist Church (108) United Reformed Church (1) Uniting Church in Australia@ Unity Church (3) Unity Fellowship Church (2) Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches (2) Virtual Churches (13) Waldensian Church (3) Way International, The (4) Web Directories (6) Wesleyan (9) Wesleyan Methodist@ Worldwide Church of God (4)

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:26am

  228. From David Kuo:

    Sadly, four years later these promises remain unfulfilled in spirit and in fact. In June 2001, the promised tax incentives for charitable giving were stripped at the last minute from the $1.6 trillion tax cut legislation to make room for the estate-tax repeal that overwhelmingly benefited the wealthy. The Compassion Capital Fund has received a cumulative total of $100 million during the past four years. And new programs including those for children of prisoners, at-risk youth, and prisoners reentering society have received a little more than $500 million over four years--or approximately $6.3 billion less than the promised $6.8 billion.

    Unfortunately, sometimes even the grandly-announced "new" programs aren't what they appear. Nowhere is this clearer than in the recently-announced "gang prevention initiative" totaling $50 million a year for three years. The obvious inference is that the money is new spending on an important initiative. Not quite. The money is being taken out of the already meager $100 million request for the Compassion Capital Fund. If granted, it would actually mean a $5 million reduction in the Fund from last year.

    This isn't what was promised.

    Why?

    The first reaction might be that the recession or 9/11 made it impossible to do the full faith-based initiative. And, to be sure, 9/11 - with the ensuing effort to secure America, hunt down terrorists, and eliminate Saddam Hussein - made the world a very different place from what it was when Gov. Bush made domestic promises during his run for the White House. There are two things worth noting, however; first, the White House didn't even come close to fulfilling those promises before 9/11. More important, since then it has pushed an ambitious domestic agenda: three huge budgets have been submitted, each of which had billions of dollars for other domestic "priorities" but lacked any new money to pay for "compassion agenda" promises, which are ever more in need of fulfillment. After all, there are now more poor Americans than ever before.

    ...At the end of the day, both parties played to stereotype -- Republicans were indifferent to the poor and the Democrats were allergic to faith.

    Allergic to cults.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:29am

  229. After all, there are now more poor Americans than ever before.

    Chimpies legacy.

    More poor, more terrorism, more tax cuts for the obscenely wealthy. More dead troops, less equipment for National Guard units here. A complete failure to guard an AMerican city and do anything to rebuild it.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:31am

  230. Whew.

    I must hate America and God.

    Posted by crabwalk at 05/17/2007 @ 11:32am

  231. MARYBRETBRAD 05/17/2007 @ 09:15am

    I often hear this argument about how socialism leads to mass slaughter, and American liberals are somehow connected to it. I just don't get the logic.

    Take Stalin's purges for example. Most of the bloodshed took place before we worked with him as an ally against Hitler during World War II. But that's conveniently ignored in the modern conservative myth that anti-war liberals are blind to genocide.

    If anyone can make this argument without resorting to leaving out huge chunks of history and connecting unrelated events, I'm happy to listen.

    In the meantime I'll stick with my crackpot idea that people who like to get along with other people and don't mind having a mildly benevolent government are less prone to violence than those of a more competitive nature.

    Posted by MyParadigm at 05/17/2007 @ 11:59am

  232. Stalin was a most useful dictator in the 40s. Saddam was most useful too.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 12:08pm

  233. Not for nothing, but for those who conflate communism with Soviet fascism need to study your history books. Communism is the whole population serving each other for the betterment of all (no, I don't agree with Marx, but not all of his ideas were nonsense); Soviet fascism was nothing like what Marx described, and to call it communism is facetious, ignorant, and in some cases, specious.

    Jesus was all about people giving up their property and riches in order to serve their fellow man. That sounds an awful like Marxist philosphy. Sounds nothing like what the anti-Christians are spouting off about.

    Posted by Turk33 at 05/17/2007 @ 12:33pm

  234. How would you like it, if you're in Church, some long haired unshaven fanatical white guy wearing white robes bursts, in and starts screaming and ranting that you're all hypnocrites, starts chasing people with a whip, knocking over the collection plates. That's what Jesus would do - Falwell was intolerant - but at least Falwell had some decorum.

    Posted by conshame at 05/17/2007 @ 1:13pm

  235. How would you like it, if you're in Church, some long haired unshaven fanatical white guy wearing white robes bursts,

    there are no portraits of Jesus. for most of the 2000 years of Christianity he was portrayed as a european guy. he wasn't. he was that "jewish looking fellow", semitic, likely darker skin. beard likely, payess of course.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 1:18pm

  236. Phariseeism: the one true religion

    Posted by conshame at 05/17/2007 @ 1:19pm

  237. Posted by TURK33 05/17/2007 @ 12:33pm | ignore this person

    right you are. I imagine Marx was familiar with this aspect of early christianity as well.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 1:20pm

  238. Posted by MYPARADIGM 05/17/2007 @ 11:59am

    Not to defend MARYBRET....but the writings of NY Times reporter Walter Duranty pre-date World War-II, and they WERE Soviet apologism.

    And though it's not fair to tar all 1930s/40s liberals as "pro-Communist", Arthur Schleisinger Jr., Hubert Humphrey, Galbraith and others DID found "Americans for Democratic Action" in 1947 to help combat what they saw as a rising tide of pro-Sovietism in the Democratic Party.

    Posted by Mask at 05/17/2007 @ 1:22pm

  239. Stalin marched under a Communist banner so Communism gets the blame. I dont see the point of calling him Fascist rather than Communist. Should we call Hitler a Communist rather than a Fascist?

    Posted by conshame at 05/17/2007 @ 1:27pm

  240. Stalin marched under a Communist banner so Communism gets the blame. I dont see the point of calling him Fascist rather than Communist. Should we call Hitler a Communist rather than a Fascist?

    Posted by CONSHAME 05/17/2007 @ 1:27pm

    ...and Bush calls himself a Christian.

    As I've said before, standing in a church and singing hallelujah's doesn't make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage saying "beep-beep" makes you a sedan.

    Stalin knew, like today's conservatives, that labeling is everything. Saying he was a communist doesn't mean that he was a communism based on Marxist teachings.

    Posted by Turk33 at 05/17/2007 @ 1:33pm

  241. Posted by CONSHAME 05/17/2007 @ 1:13pm

    Which church do you go to that has money-changers operating during services?

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 1:39pm

  242. Posted by CRABWALK 05/17/2007 @ 11:26am

    Whether you take anyone seriously is not the point. No one need explain their spiritual beliefs to you. Nor do you have to explain yours to everyone else. But one thing that is necessary - is civil discourse. Let's just call in tolerance.

    You see when you spout off like you did here. For one, you aren't convincing. For two, you don't sound much different than those you are criticizing.

    One can be a fundamentalist atheist too, you know - which has all the same problems of every other kind of fundamentalism.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 1:47pm

  243. LvLiberty-What would be the point in allowing 9/11 to happen if nobody,but Falwell, knew the reason?Hopefully,your god didn't believe that these "sinners" would listen to Falwell.That would be a tad naive.Falwell's claim makes no sense.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/17/2007 @ 1:49pm

  244. Christ - Liberals say he was a Liberal, Conservatives say he was a Conservative, Jews say he was a Jew, Hindus say he was a Hindu, Communists say he was a Communist, Muslims say he was a Muslim, Fascists say he was a Fascist, Witches say he was a Witch, Vegetarians say he was a Vegetarian, Kooks say he was a Kook, Satanists even sometimes say he was a Satanist.

    Posted by conshame at 05/17/2007 @ 2:00pm

  245. Posted by MASK 05/17/2007 @ 1:22pm

    Bit of a red herring. Even Rumsfield get's a pass - normalizing relations with Saddam while he was using chemical weapons. Oops, we didn't realize how bad of a guy he was...

    You can bring up many legitimate concerns in respect to socialism, just as you can with capitalism. But the fact that some liberals in the past supported a Soviet conception of government - what has very little to do with socialism is, frankly, immaterial.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 2:02pm

  246. Which church do you go to that has money-changers operating during services?

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/17/2007 @ 1:39pm | ignore this person

    WHAT have you got against money-changers? You dont want money changers, go to a church that doesnt have them. Dont insult my religion, I happen to like money-changers. What is so God Damn Bad about Money Changers?????

    Let us have our fun. You dont have to come to the Pharisee Church and get Salvation if you dont want it. Go to some fake religion instead. The Saducees are OK, but they arent God's chosen, and every other religion in the world is outright Satanic. If you want to go to Heaven you have to join the Pharisees - take it or leave it.

    But dont come inside my church, chasing people with whips, knocking over tables, screaming at the top of your lungs like Jesus did, calling us hypocrites. Jesus is the hypocrite.

    By the way you're Liberal and that's good - if you havent found the true religion, at least you found the right politics.

    Posted by conshame at 05/17/2007 @ 2:07pm

  247. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 05/17/2007 @ 2:00pm

    The problem is that you are arguing that your views are the views of God based on scripture - and you use words like "clearly" when it can be said that you are doing a rather creative interpretion of the text.

    The fact that millions of Christians believe it can be contrasted that the total number of Christians in around 2.1 billion. Probably less than the 1.3 billion that adhere to some form of Islam, 1.1 billion secularists, and 900 million Hindus.

    You can't make a bandwagon argument here.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 2:07pm

  248. Posted by CONSHAME 05/17/2007 @ 2:07pm

    If you recall, Jesus lived and preached to money-changers, tax-collectors and prostitutes - as well as fisherman. I think the particular occasion you are referring to is that Jesus was making the point that a temple should not be the locus for these activities - and yes, that includes fishermen.

    You should try to give a little more generous in your interpretation. The Bible is a difficult book - and we need to be careful not to put in more than is in there.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 2:16pm

  249. LvLiberty-I suspect that only a small handful of people knew what Falwell was talking about and even fewer agreed with him.A just and all powerful God does not let innocent people die in some silly hope that people who were totally unrelated to the incident get the idea that they were really to blame.That's lame and makes believers in such things appear to be a tad off mentally.The world trade center was a monument to capitalism and not paganism or feminism so, logically, if there was a "sin" being pointed out by God then it must be the "sin" of greed.Of course,9/11 happened because some religious lunatics made it happen and for no other reason.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 05/17/2007 @ 2:16pm

  250. "Kooks say he was a Kook"

    I have heard them say this when passinjg by the Kook section...in between the spinning propellars whirling sound(a red one).

    Posted by john maasch at 05/17/2007 @ 2:36pm

  251. The Bible is listed as fiction in the Library Of Congress. That's because none of it can be proven.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/17/2007 @ 3:14pm

    FRANK, not wholly disputing that, but....can you reference where you got that?

    Posted by Mask at 05/17/2007 @ 3:44pm

  252. Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/17/2007 @ 3:14pm

    Frank, you might want to check this again because you're wrong.

    For one, Bibles fall in BR-BV in the Library Classification system. If you are referring to Library of Congress Subject Headings (LCSH), until recently they weren't applied at all to works of fiction. Further, the LCSH is a fundamentally flawed system, as anyone that is familiar with Sandy Berman can attest.

    Before you go on to belabor this point, spend a moment to think on why I might know this - off the top of my head.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sanford_Berman

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 4:01pm

  253. Posted by SRJENKINS 05/17/2007 @ 4:01pm

    FRANK's claim sounds like a good "www.snopes.com" article on urban legends.

    Posted by Mask at 05/17/2007 @ 4:24pm

  254. Posted by FRANKGRITS 05/17/2007 @ 3:14pm

    I wanted to make two more points. It may in fact be a work of fiction, but if the Library of Congress listed it as such, doesn't make it so. That was the thrust of the previous comment.

    The second point is about LVLIBERTY1. I was engaging him within the premises he accepts - that is the Bible is the revealed word of God that clearly sets out particular ideas.

    Personally, I don't put ultimate authority in scripture, there are simply too many complexities for me to approach it that way - translation, the fact that much of it is transcriptions for an oral tradition, interpretations (whether it is Pauls or my own), and so forth.

    The point is not whether the Bible is a piece of fiction or not. The point is whether you can find meaning in it that transforms you life into something better.

    Does it speak to you? Have you really tried to hear what is being said? What does it mean to live like Christ based on what little we can glean from the scriptures? What can I do to come closer to that in action?

    I always liked this quote from Larry Wall.

    God is not a system. Christians are fond of asking: "What would Jesus do in this situation?" Unfortunately, they very rarely come up with the correct answer, which is: "Something unexpected!" If the Creator really did write himself into his own story, that's what we ought to expect to see. Creative solutions.

    See #7 of the link to his Slashdot interview.

    http://interviews.slashdot.org/interviews/02/09/06/1343222.shtml?tid=145

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 4:48pm

  255. Posted by MASK 05/17/2007 @ 4:24pm

    I agree. It is tough having a good conversation when so much time is debunking false claims - although we all do make mistakes and perhaps Frank made one here.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 4:50pm

  256. Christ - Liberals say he was a Liberal, Conservatives say he was a Conservative, Jews say he was a Jew, Hindus say he was a Hindu, Communists say he was a Communist, Muslims say he was a Muslim, Fascists say he was a Fascist, Witches say he was a Witch, Vegetarians say he was a Vegetarian, Kooks say he was a Kook, Satanists even sometimes say he was a Satanist.

    Posted by CONSHAME 05/17/2007 @ 2:00pm | ignore this person

    one of these is incontestable.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 5:08pm

  257. But the fact that some liberals in the past supported a Soviet conception of government - what has very little to do with socialism is, frankly, immaterial.

    Posted by SRJENKINS 05/17/2007 @ 2:02pm | ignore this person

    in the 30s there was a great thaw in american-soviet relations. progressive americans wanted to help this young country.there were exchange programs, Henry Ford sent a delegation, I believe.there was financial and other support. this was in great contrast to earlier, when the US sent troops to Siberia to fight against the reds on behalf of the white russians. a very interesting chapter in history. check it out.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 5:17pm

  258. I really think it's great to see constructive religious dialogue between conservatives and liberals.

    Also...

    this was in great contrast to earlier, when the US sent troops to Siberia to fight against the reds on behalf of the white russians. a very interesting chapter in history.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/17/2007 @ 5:17pm

    Sounds like it; I must confess that I never heard of the US fighting on behalf of a drink before... :D

    Posted by Thrawn at 05/17/2007 @ 8:12pm

  259. Thrawn, funny is not your strong suit.

    Posted by johannesrolf at 05/17/2007 @ 8:28pm

  260. Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/17/2007 @ 5:17pm

    Thanks for pointing this out. It sounds interesting. I'll see what I can find on it.

    Posted by srjenkins at 05/17/2007 @ 9:47pm

  261. Thrawn, funny is not your strong suit.

    Posted by JOHANNESROLF 05/17/2007 @ 8:28pm

    I know, I know. Somehow, though, I just couldn't resist...

    Also, I think the server is having some issues; it put your response before my comment.

    Posted by Thrawn at 05/18/2007 @ 11:52am

  262. I think that the best coda to put on the race baiting, homophobic, nonsensical, anti-Semitic life of Jerry Falwell was overheard from one of Philly's gay watering holes on the occasion of the death of Ronald Reagan.

    The gentlemen said, quoting "The Wizard of Oz"...

    "Ding, Dong, the Witch is Dead, the Wicked Old Witch, the Witch is Dead!"

    While his family might miss him, I won't. He was a jerk. He was an asshole. He was everything wrong with organized religion. I would love to know how many people he turned AWAY from God with his crap.

    Posted by edwriter at 05/18/2007 @ 5:30pm

John Nichols John Nichols

Breaking news and analysis on political, social, economic and cultural activism that mainstream media commonly ignore.

Archives

  1. February 2010

  2. January 2010

  3. December 2009

  4. November 2009

  5. October 2009

  6. September 2009

blog roll

Advertisement
Advertisement

Blogs

» The Beat

Facing Bipartisan Criticism, RNC's Steele Asks If Race Is Factor | "Why? Is it because Michael Steele is the chairman, or is it because a black man is chairman?” he wonders. Maybe he could compare notes with Obama.
John Nichols

» Editor's Cut

New Web Column at The Washington Post | Every Tuesday, I'll be featuring progressive thinking about politics and challenging the Right in my new web column for The Washington Post. Read my first one here.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
31 Comments

» The Notion

When Snow Melts: Vancouver’s Olympic Crackdown | Anger is growing in Vancouver in advance of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Like Olympic clockwork, here comes the media crackdown.
Dave Zirin
43 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

The Mind-Boggling Stupidity of Michael Rubin | How an AEI apparatchik's love affair for Ahmed Chalabi blinds him to Chalabi's pro-Iran treachery.
Robert Dreyfuss
27 Comments

» Act Now!

Demand Question Time | Join the call for the President and Congress to implement regular Question Time sessions.
Peter Rothberg
56 Comments

» And Another Thing

How to Counterbalance Focus on the Family on Superbowl Sunday | Give to help low income girls and women.
Katha Pollitt
54 Comments

» Altercation

Slacker Friday | James O'Keefe and Alter-reviews.
Eric Alterman