Dems Aren't Urgent Enough About Withdrawal

posted by John Nichols on 03/08/2007 @ 2:48pm

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If we accept scientific estimates of the Iraqi death toll since the U.S. invasion of that country, as detailed in the British medical journal The Lancet, then it is fair to say that an Iraqi dies from violence or deprivation every ten minutes. An American dies every ten hours. And, every ten days, significantly more than a billion dollars from the U.S. treasury is spent maintaining the occupation -- not on helping veterans, not on assisting in the reconstruction of Iraq, but on continuing the physical occupation of a country where polling and circumstances on the ground indicate that the people do not favor the continued presence of foreign forces.

There are those who suggest that America has time to wait before we begin bringing our troops home from Iraq. House Democratic leaders on Thursday proposed legislation that would set benchmarks for progress in Iraq. If those benchmarks remain unmet, a slow process of extracting troops would begin under the plan favored by House Speaker Nancy Pelosi, D-California; Wisconsin's David Obey and Pennsylvania's John Murtha, the chair and defense subcommittee chair respectively of the appropriations committee; and Missouri's Ike Skelton, who chairs the armed services committee.

The fact that Democratic leaders are talking about attempting to impose a timeline for withdrawal of troops is good. It puts the opposition party in a position of actually opposing an unpopular president's exceptionally unpopular policies.

Unfortunately, because the president wants to maintain the occupation on his terms, Bush can be counted on to veto legislation establishing benchmarks and a timeline. So the Democrats find themselves in a difficult position. They plan to expend immense time and energy -- and perhaps even a small measure of political capital -- to promote a withdrawal strategy. Yet, the strategy they are promoting is unlikely to excite Americans who want this war to end.

In other words, while Pelosi and her compatriots propose to fight for a timeline, it is not the right timeline.

Theoretically, the Democratic leadership plan would create the potential for the withdrawal of some U.S. troops in six months. Realistically, because the Democratic plans lacks adequate monitoring mechanisms -- even Pelosi says determinations about whether benchmarks are met would be a "a subjective call" -- chances are that there would be no withdrawals for more than a year. The Speaker essentially acknowledged as much when, in announcing the plan, she said, "No matter what, by March 2008, the redeployment begins."

Forcing young Americans and Iraqis to die for George Bush's delusions for another year, while emptying the treasury at a rate of a billion dollars a week, is not an adequate response to the demands -- let alone the realities -- of the moment.

"This plan would require us to believe whatever the president would tell us about progress that was being made," says Congresswoman Maxine Waters, D-California, speaking for the bipartisan Out of Iraq Caucus. "This is same president that led us into a war with false information, no weapons of mass destruction, said we would be (welcomed) with open arms, said that the mission had been accomplished. Now we expect him to give us a progress report in their plan by July?"

Congressional Progressive Caucus co-chair Lynn Woolsey, D-California, says of the legislation. "There's no enforcement mechanism. We have had the same thing in place for two years and [now] we're expecting [Bush] to do something...?"

Woolsey's question begs another question: Why? Why are Democrats, who just wasted weeks arguing about non-binding resolutions regarding Bush's surge of 21,5OO more troops into Iraq, now preparing to pour their energy into fighting for what appears to be another vague and inadequate proposal?

Rather than try to answer that one, perhaps it is best to note that Peace Action and other anti-war groups are launching a massive, rolling call-in campaign leading up to the vote on President Bush's request for another $93 billion to fund his approach to the war. Peace Action is asking Americans to tell their representatives to stand with Woolsey, who recently said "the only money I will support for Iraq is funding that is used for the withdrawal of every last US soldier and military contractor from Iraq."

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John Nichols' new book is THE GENIUS OF IMPEACHMENT: The Founders' Cure for Royalism. Rolling Stone's Tim Dickinson hails it as a "nervy, acerbic, passionately argued history-cum-polemic [that] combines a rich examination of the parliamentary roots and past use of the 'heroic medicine' that is impeachment with a call for Democratic leaders to 'reclaim and reuse the most vital tool handed to us by the founders for the defense of our most basic liberties.'"

Comments (46)

Nobody wants the blame for "losing" the war.The fact that nobody has ever tried to win it doesn't seem to come up much.Bush simply wants it to drag out until he gets out of office.That politicians frequently put politics above our troops lives isn't a new thing.They're safe just as most war supporters are safely hiding in America.

Posted by i'm nobody at 03/08/2007 @ 3:26pm
"Forcing young Americans and Iraqis to die for George Bush's delusions for another year, while emptying the treasury at a rate of a billion dollars a week, is not an adequate response to the demands -- let alone the realities -- of the moment."

I will put this quote from the article above in my e-mails/ phone messages to my senators and representative and to Pelosi and Reid. Then I will support the Rep. Woolsey/Progressive caucus activity described in the article.

And I'll politely express that I appreciate that within the Beltway, it was important for the Democrats to put forth "a plan" and to express "support for the troops." But I'll quote Pelosi's own interview with Jim Lehrer that the people are way ahead of the Congress on this issue. And the people want out of Iraq now.

Iraq's a bloodbath this week. Those are real bodies falling. Walter Reed: real lives blasted. This isn't a hypothetical. Troops home now. End the illegal U.S. occupation of Iraq.

Posted by RLawrence at 03/08/2007 @ 3:27pm
What's curious is that it would be easy to spin a withdrawal for the American public as: we did what we could, we liberated Iraq from Saddam, now it's up to them. Of course, the complaints about our not providing security would be valid, but we can always point out how much we've spent to get homegrown police established.

This would go over quite well, across the political spectrum.

So why are we doing this little dance? Is Bush really so nuts that he still thinks we can pull out a win? Are Pelosi and Reed so afraid of being insulted by the likes of Bill O'Reilly that they will dither while more blood is spilled? Do the lot of them actually think that the public will forgive their turf battle once again, as if all that were at stake were the ragged honor of a philandering husband or a highway though a safe district?

Don't they know there's a war on?

It seems to me that after decades of perfecting the roles - the conservative stalwart, the idealistic liberal, the refreshing maverick - they have completely lost the ability to take action. All they can do is act.

Supposedly, the real work all gets done behind the scenes. Hopefully, someone is writing a twist into the script.

Posted by MyParadigm at 03/08/2007 @ 4:04pm
After reading the Nation article, I sent the following e-mail to my two senators (this is the tweaked one I sent the second senator):

"I am writing to ask you to oppose any continued funding for hostilities in the war in Iraq, including the plan proposed by Speaker Pelosi and other Democrats today.

As political corespondent John Nichols stated in a column in The Nation (online) today, "Forcing young Americans and Iraqis to die for George Bush's delusions for another year, while emptying the treasury at a rate of a billion dollars a week, is not an adequate response to the demands -- let alone the realities -- of the moment."

I appreciate that within the Beltway, it was important for the Democrats to put forth "a plan" and to express "support for the troops." But, as Speaker Pelosi said in her recent interview with Jim Lehrer of PBS's "Newshour," the people are far ahead of the Congress on this issue. And we want out of Iraq now.

Iraq's a bloodbath this week. Those are real bodies falling. Those are real lives blasted at Walter Reed. This isn't a hypothetical. The troops must come home now, and the illegal U.S. occupation of Iraq must end.

I encourage you to oppose continued funding for hostilities in Iraq, and to support the work of Rep. Lynn Woolsey, Co-Chair of the House Progressive Caucus, to limit funding only to withdrawing U.S. soldiers and contractors from Iraq."

When they get letters and calls like this, it limits their ability to go on the talking heads programs and claim that they "really haven't been hearing" any clamor in their district for immediate withdrawal. Keep up the clamor, clamor, clamor. Never let them forget that we are indeed ahead of them on this, and -- to borrow a phrase from Senator Jim Webb -- if they do not lead, we will show them the way.

Posted by RLawrence at 03/08/2007 @ 4:10pm
"They plan to expend immense time and energy -- and perhaps even a small measure of political capital -- to promote a withdrawal strategy. Yet, the strategy they are promoting is unlikely to excite Americans who want this war to end."

And yet, Mr Nichols expects this SAME Congress ....to impeach Bush and Cheney?!??!!?

Posted by Mask at 03/08/2007 @ 4:15pm
BTW....."BLOG | Posted 03/08/2007 @ 2:48pm Dems Aren't Urgent Enought About Withdrawal"

"Enought"?....spell-check imminent I believe.

Posted by Mask at 03/08/2007 @ 4:19pm
The fact that nobody has ever tried to win it doesn't seem to come up much.

this is a myth. short of total war, impossible under the circumstances, we can't kill them all, they have tried everything to win this unwinnable war. perpetuating this myth is damaging to the cause of peace.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/08/2007 @ 4:27pm
I think the Dems in Congress need to get some guts and just DEMAND DEFEAT NOW!!!

Posted by pontificus at 03/08/2007 @ 5:53pm
DEMAND DEFEAT NOW!!!

Posted by PONTIFICUS 03/08/2007 @ 5:53pm | ignore this person

we obviously have plenty of that now.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/08/2007 @ 5:54pm
Mineta testified under oath before the 9/11 Commission that he personally witnessed Dick Cheney order a subordinate to allow the approaching aircraft to strike the Pentagon unimpeded. The direct order was to allow any approaching aircraft to fly direct and unimpeded to its target, without employing any of the readily available countermeasures (missiles) to prevent it.

This testimony, under oath, is proof that Dick Cheney was in command of the action on 9/11. He personally ensured that the plane (not a civilian aircraft, but an A3 Skywarrior from Raytheon's fleet), loaded with explosives (the smell of cordite hung in the area and those present smelled it), struck the Pentagon precisely as planned, with military precision, including a perfect corkscrew descent - an impossible maneuver for any new pilot.

There was no pilot aboard this aircraft, and no passengers either (no seats, luggage or bodies were found). It was painted in the company colors of American Airlines and flown by Dov Zakehim's Sysplan technology into the building where he worked as Comptroller. Did Dov place the homing device on the side of the building himself?

Dov Zakheim is a 9/11 kingpin, along with Dick Cheney, Kobi Alexander and others.

In the words of Ubber-Zionist, Myrav Wurmser (wife of Cheney's top Middle East Advisor relative to bombing Iran and Syria), "We must move on, and faster."

Yes, we must move on, and faster. On to the crime of 9/11.

All of the evidence required to indict Richard B. Cheney on charges of Conspiracy to Commit Treason are present. All of the evidence required to Arrest Cheney for his direct role in 9/11 is readily available. All of the evidence to indict Richard B. Cheney under the DC Fraud statutes was revealed in testimony at the Libby trial. Read the Fraud Statutes - look at how Cheney and his co-conspirators have profitted from 9/11 and this war, then tell me he didn't commit FRAUD.

It is a fact that Vice President Cheney lied repeatedly (and directly caused the President to do so in a STATE OF THE UNION SPEECH), using the People's FCC-controlled airwaves, and the US Mail, to cause the United States to embark upon a policy course that was known to be contrary to the interests of the People Of The United States, and did so for his own personal enrichment (see income from Halliburton and other holdings).

CONSPIRACY, FRAUD, AND TREASON are ALL indictable offenses.

Screw impeachment, ARREST THE MAN.

CONSPIRACY, FRAUD & TREASON = CHENEY

WASH, RINSE, REPEAT:

CONSPIRACY, FRAUD & TREASON = CHENEY

Only by revealing the entire truth of 9/11, and laying all of the facts on the table for the American public to see, can we have or country back. No other investigation or revelation will do it.

TAKE ON THE TRUTH OF 9/11 AND CHENEY'S DIRECT ROLE THEREIN.

Posted by plunger at 03/08/2007 @ 6:02pm
The war has not been "bungled." The execution of the war is "right on-plan."

The plan was to create a set of circumstances under which it would be both impossible to declare victory, AND impossible to leave. I'm not speculating about this, it's not mere conjecture, it's a FACT. This administration and those ABOVE Bush's paygrade (Rockefeller, CFR, etc.) have been happy to use their controlled-media to paint a picture of inept execution of the war, but trust me, from their perspective, it's going perfectly.

Stop thinking with your own value systems and your own logical mind. Wurmser, Ledeen and others have told us that the actual GOAL is TOTAL WAR LASTING 100 YEARS. The PERMANANT BASES IN IRAQ confirm this. Use your logical mind.

They showed you their road map (PNAC), they published their theories and strategies and made it available for all to see. You know that these strategies are the ones being implemented, because you know that Israel has moles throughout the Government (including Lieberman) ensuring that their war proceeds apace at our expense. You know that Larry Franklin imbeded himself in the midst of the WHIG during the run up to the invasion of Iraq, this despite the fact that he actually ran the IRAN DESK. You know he pled guilty to passing Top Secret information pertaing to IRAN on to Israel through the leaders of AIPAC, a known spy organization.

You should also know that US Submariner, Ariel Joseph Weinmann, was arrested and charged with espionsge in a case at least as damaging to US National Security as was the Jonathan Pollard case. He turned over all of our nuclear submarine secrets to Israel. Now their subs know everything that the US Navy knows - and they're likely shadowing our fleet off the coast of Iran right this moment. If a US vessel is attacked in these waters, and the attack is instantly proclamed to have come from Iran, you now know that it will have been a false flag attack from an Israeli sub. The proclamation from the Liar In Chief will be made that "An attack against a US Flagged vessel is the equivalent of an attack on US Soil" - and the nuking of Iran will commence before you can say "holy shit!" Again, this is NOT CONJECTURE, Cheney has TOLD US that the "retaliation plan" is already in place.

We know EVERYTHING to make a legal case against this administration AND the government of Israel for their direct role in 9/11 AND taking us into a war of choice under false (flag) prestense.

Now what are we going to do about it?

Posted by plunger at 03/08/2007 @ 6:03pm
Regarding the Marc Rich Pardon:

Clinton was set up by Israel, period.

Monica was a Mossad "Swallow" on a mission to entrap the President - and Israel employed its own (COMVERSE) wiretapping technology to tap phone sex between Lewinski and the President. GHW Bush was in on it too, and that is where, when the alliance between the Bush Cabal and the NeoCONs (Likud/David Rockefeller) was solidified.

Another "Swallow," Chandra Levy, hooked up with Intelliegence Committee member Gary Condit for the purpose of compromising him in order to ensure that he went along with the 9/11 plans. Levy told her parents that she had some "big news" to share with them when she flew home to visit. She was killed days later, before she got the chance to reveal what she knew.

As Chandra Levy was signing off of her computer for the very last time prior to going to "meet someone," at that very moment, Gary Condit and Dick Cheney were together in Cheney's office - the perfect alibai.

Remember that it was revealed that AT&T had been conducting illegal warrantless wiretapping on the government's behalf in the months PRIOR TO 9/11? Was it these taps that picked up the leave phone call with her parents, or Irael's Mossad? Either way, the results were the same. Remember that in the months preceding 9/11, the ABLE DANGER intelliegence program was shut down? These wiretaps likely revealed that the 9/11 operation was being compromised, and Cheney ordered it shut down.

Clinton was set-up by GHW Bush and Israel - and the PNAC plan was implemented, with 9/11 as the pretext - the "New (Richard Pearle) Harbor."

Ken Lay, GHW Bush, Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney were co-conspirators in the FAKE California energy crisis, designed specifically to establish fear of energy shortages in the minds of the citizens of the United States to create the mindset that has led to our acceptance of TREASON, TYRANNY AND TORTURE in return for oil.

Posted by plunger at 03/08/2007 @ 6:04pm
JR While I agree that Iraq was never winnable I,also,believe Bush never had a plan to win.I think that's part of what's wrong with this whole mess.His plan now is to delay until he leaves office.War on the cheap or total war aren't the only two choices.The plan the military originally presented to Bush was in between the two.A civil war was entirely predictable considering how much many of the Iraqis hate each other and this administration had no plan for it or much of anything else.It still has no real plan to do anything,but delay until Bush gets out of office.

Posted by i'm nobody at 03/08/2007 @ 6:08pm
Any "Defeat" that the US experiences in the Middle East was preordained by this Administration prior to going in. This NO WIN SITUATION was created BY DESIGN.

Anyone who has the audacity to blame the REALISTS for acknowledging the REALITY - that this "war" is unwinnable by any measure (by design) - that WE WERE LIED TO - and that the plan from the outset called for OCCUPATION rather than victory - each of you need to spend some tie in front of the mirror for your personal role in this travesty.

Posted by plunger at 03/08/2007 @ 6:10pm
I'm Nobody:

Think like a criminal. They have the best resources in the world, identified all of the potential pitfalls of an invasion, then CHOSE THE COURSE MOST LIKELY TO LEAD TO CHAOS.

This is not the result of incompetence or poor planning, this is the direct result of purposeful planning, and the precise outcome that you see today indicates that they have been totally successful with their plan to create a no win situation leading to permanant occupation.

No other explanation makes sense.

Leave your moral compass behind and think like a meglomaniac - like David Rockefeller - who wants to microchip EVERYONE and cause the collapse of the US Middle Class - putting a descenters in Concentraton Camps like "Swift Luck Greens."

Google it.

Posted by plunger at 03/08/2007 @ 6:16pm
JR Reminding the Pontis of the world that Bush has no plans for anything other than delay until he gets out of office makes their "Demand Defeat" thing look kind of ignorant.If Bush wants to pretend he gave it the old college try and get out that would be fine,but he won't.The war is in the hands of Bush and the Congress not the peace movement.Me saying that I don't believe they ever had a plan to win or even really cared about winning isn't going to change what Bush or Congress do.

Posted by i'm nobody at 03/08/2007 @ 6:20pm
It was never Iraqis that were going to follow us home, it's what we already have here that we need to be concerned with and fix-- get rid of more inhuman greedy lying obstructionist repub perfs along with hsuB/heney.

CQ TODAY

March 7, 2007 – 9:00 p.m.

Members Were Aware of Lapses at Walter Reed By Seth Stern, CQ Staff

Senior Republicans who knew about problems at Walter Reed Army Medical Center while their party controlled Congress insist they did all they could to prod the Pentagon to fix them.

Posted by hsuBfools at 03/08/2007 @ 6:53pm
er, perv's

Posted by hsuBfools at 03/08/2007 @ 6:54pm
But C.W. Bill Young, R-Fla., former chairman of the House Appropriations Defense Subcommittee, said he stopped short of going public with the hospital's problems to avoid embarrassing the Army while it was fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Young and Thomas M. Davis III, R-Va., the former chairman of the House Government Reform Committee, both acknowledged in interviews that they were aware of patient care problems at Walter Reed long before The Washington Post exposed them two weeks ago.

But he said he purposely opted to bring concerns about individual patients' care privately to the attention of Walter Reed commanders, rather than wield his clout as an Appropriations subcommittee chairman.

"We did not go public with these concerns, because we did not want to undermine the confidence of the patients and their families and give the Army a black eye while fighting a war," Young said.

"Appropriations alone cannot solve all problems," he said. "It takes more. It takes skill, it takes experience, it takes determination, and it takes attitude."

He placed the blame for the hospital's substandard conditions on Kiley, who now serves as the Army's surgeon general, its top-ranking uniformed doctor. Young said he was not satisfied with Kiley's answers at the hearing Wednesday and predicted that he would be relieved of his post by the weekend.

"The rumor around the Capitol is they're keeping him here to take all the spears," Young said.

Davis' Panel Aware Since 2004

Posted by hsuBfools at 03/08/2007 @ 7:00pm
"This is not the result of incompetence or poor planning, this is the direct result of purposeful planning, and the precise outcome that you see today indicates that they have been totally successful with their plan to create a no win situation leading to permanant occupation.

No other explanation makes sense."

Posted by PLUNGER 03/08/2007 @ 6:16pm | ignore this person

I quite agree Plunger. This is Creative Chaos Doctrine played out systematically, and with malice aforethought.

Guaranteed to keep us in Iraq a long time, and guaranteed to have the "enemy" kill each other off and destroy their country while Big Brother looks on.

Absolutely deplorable. War criminals. Who are the terrorists?

Posted by OneVote at 03/08/2007 @ 8:37pm
Posted by ONEVOTE 03/08/2007 @ 8:37pm

OV...PLUNGER will tell you "David Rockefeller". 92 years old and he's the World's Puppet Master.

Posted by Mask at 03/08/2007 @ 9:36pm
Mask:

If you do not see that the US Government is controlled from outside and above the Halls of Congress and the White House, you are a Coincidence Theorist with blinders on.

If you do see that, but fail to identify who (real people with real names), and mock others who provide you with food for thought and or/evidence, what is your purpose here?

Do you actally care about the truth? If so, act like it.

Posted by plunger at 03/09/2007 @ 05:57am
Blackmail...it's ALL about blackmail.

Only those of low moral character (therefore subject to blackmail) are allowed into the political process from the outset. AIPAC is the filter through which all candidates for public office must pass. Sexpionage is their stock in trade, and blackmail is their tool of choice.

When literally nothing seems to make sense - like when the entire US Government stood silently "bi" as Israel committed War Crimes an Genocide in Lebanon (and in Palestine every day) - the question must be asked... "WHY DO THESE ELECTED OFFICIALS SAY AND DO NOTHING?"

The answer is clear enough. They are ALL being blackmailed. Israel has infiltrated the entire US phone system and has the ability to tap every phone call in the US - including the White House (just ask Clinton how it was that his phone sex with Agent Lewinsky was taped).

David Rockefeller runs the show from his office atop the "Tower Of Power" building in Manhattan. Remember when Hillary spoke of a Vast Right Wing Conspiracy? Of course she was right. But once they had she and her husband dead to rights, they cut a deal, and brought them on-side. What else explains the fact that GHW Bush and Clinton are now cooperating?

It was GHW Bush, in concert with Israel, that entrapped Clinton in the first place, using Mossad "Swallow" Lewinsky as the bait. This alliance led to the installation of the Bush Cabal under the direction of GHW Bush - all with the complicity of AIPAC/Israel, and all at the behest of the puppet master, David Rockefeller.

Lay, Cheney, Rumsfeld and GHW Bush conspired to create the California energy crisis to set the stage for the resulting energy wars. 9/11 was a REQUIREMENT for the implementation of the PNAC plan.

But now, there's a serious problem. Israel has double crossed the administration, and is blackmailing all of the co-conspirators in the Administration. Israel has the nuclear lanch and targeting codes for the US Nuclear Missile arsenal. They are calling ALL the shots - and it's all the result of blackmail.

Google "Sexpionage"

It's the oldest game in warfare.

The Bombing of Iran is next.

Posted by plunger at 03/09/2007 @ 07:19am
What a lot of pwog bullshit. Nichols will be mouthing the same do-nothing platitudes about the Iraq Bloodbath in 2012. He knows as well as everybody else that if a real withdrawl bill had the teeniest chance of passing both houses it would never get introduced. Yet the propagandists at La Nation will still keep leading their readers in a gutless do-nothing merry-go-round for their democratic party masters.

Enjoy your war, demobots.

Posted by AlanSmithee at 03/09/2007 @ 07:29am
the "architects" of this war aren't smart enough to be so diabolical. they thought that sending the tanks to Baghdad would be the end of it. in their soundproof echo chamber, nary was heard a discouraging word. war eats all its children. it is about to devour the repub party. the dems had better watch out. they will be next.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/09/2007 @ 08:07am
"OV...PLUNGER will tell you "David Rockefeller". 92 years old and he's the World's Puppet Master."

Posted by MASK 03/08/2007 @ 9:36pm | ignore this person

"Mask:

If you do not see that the US Government is controlled from outside and above the Halls of Congress and the White House, you are a Coincidence Theorist with blinders on.

If you do see that, but fail to identify who (real people with real names), and mock others who provide you with food for thought and or/evidence, what is your purpose here?

Do you actally care about the truth? If so, act like it."

Posted by PLUNGER 03/09/2007 @ 05:57am | ignore this person

David who?.................

You may have a point here Mask.....hehehe........Plunger's got to know that there ain't no outside looking in or inside looking out, its all one big wonderful glass goldfish bowl. Our foreign policy and liberal allowance of foreign special interest groups were picked up from the pet shop a long...long time ago.

Posted by OneVote at 03/09/2007 @ 09:27am
Plunger,

"you are a Coincidence Theorist with blinders on."

Neat turn on 'conspiracy theorist', but utterly left field and coming from a place that assumes ultimate competence and incompetance in a handy package that can be proved only by inference. I can prove coincidence happens through mathematics, you can prove Rockefeller is a puppet master through linkage.

Quite frankly I'm getting utterly bored with the fantasists coming up with convoluted opinions of the huge global conspiracies, because it destroys so much more prosaic information gathering in favour of randomly CAPITALISING words as though they have some form of significance. And there's absolutely no chance that the average Senator is going to entertain something that ends in '...and that's how Bush masterminded the whole thing.'

C'mon, this guy doesn't know 'you can't fool me twice', and I've no doubt that taking the entire output of the right wing noise machine from 2000 would show similar imperialist manuevering as the PNAC produced. Hell, they still think that Edgar Cayce was predicting the future in more 'esoteric' groups. Stop working with the documents you're being fed and place it in context.

Posted by Draconis at 03/09/2007 @ 09:30am
Plunger,

"mock others who provide you with food for thought and or/evidence"

I've got an invisible dragon in my garage says your evidence is bunk.

Posted by Draconis at 03/09/2007 @ 09:33am
Dra, these conspiracy nuts are just too lazy to see the world as it is, complicated, contradictory, inconclusive. to sort anything out takes work. just as they don't take the trouble to actually write, they mostly paste, they don't take the trouble to think. they are the other side of the coin to the mindless parrots of the Bush line, those two are too lazy to think for themselves.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/09/2007 @ 09:36am
too not two, or perhaps also.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/09/2007 @ 09:38am
Posted by DRACONIS 03/09/2007 @ 09:33am

is it incoporeal and produces no heat or waste too? i got one of those too.

funny part about rese/plunger is that sans all the protocols of zion and the wilder crap, hell, they may be on to something. i put almost nothing past this administration, at least nothing to involved, like letting 9/11 happen. furthermore i am firmly convinced that there has been a military/industrial/intelligence clique that was initially rabid anticomunist and which is capable of doing ugly stuff. maybe i'm wrong, not staking reputation on it, but not automatically discounting it either.

but the crazy gnomes of zurich crap and that stuff...well, there's a reason for the ignore button.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/09/2007 @ 09:44am
Posted by ONEVOTE 03/09/2007 @ 09:27am

I love how PLUNGER thinks "If you're not a paranoid like I am, you reject the Truth!!!!"

But among the conspiracy nuts here, he's actually "second rate" compared to RESE.

Posted by Mask at 03/09/2007 @ 09:44am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 03/09/2007 @ 09:44am

IBBLE, ever considered the "UFO/CIA debunking theory"?

Goes like this....there ARE UFOs, but the Governemtn wants to deny it. SO they send out "RESE/PLUNGER" types who start off with the simple, easy ideaa of "aliens hovering around, watching us"....

and degenerate it into the George Adamski, Whitley Streiber "aliens abducted me, gave me an anal probe, and then told me I was the 3000 reincarnated spirit of Amon-Ra Hotep and I have brought a message of peace and universal brotherhood to you"...

or the David Ickes "evil dream" of "Lizard people from Zeta-II Reticuli who control the UN and the Queen and Royal Family in England are reptiloids in disguise!!!!"

IOW, take the "Truth" (which is simple, if amazing)...and conflate it into THE most outrageous ideas, and thereby undercut those who believe in the basic truth by associating them with the nutballs.

So...maybe RESE/PLUNGER are CIA ops...and there was a "basic Truth" to 9/11....but they start associating it with "David Rockefeller, Illuminati, Zionist-control over every media outlet, neo-Nazis, Jesuits, the Priory of Sion, and Hitler's Brain in a bottle in Buenos Aires"....to discredit the original idea?

Posted by Mask at 03/09/2007 @ 09:50am
Mask resorts to "UFOs" to discredit those who have spent thousands of hours of research to bring you the truth...typical disinfo tactic.

Mask, if you can use "Tin Foil Hat" plus, "David Duke" plus "anti-Semitism" plus "UFO," all in the same personal attack, do they give you an extra cookie?

Mask's ONLY purpose is to discredit anyone who gets too close to the truth. He NEVER provides links to facts - only engages in personal attack.

The story of the "Dancing Israelis" is well documented by mainstream media sources worldwide, and reconfirmed by the television interview these Mossad agents conducted upon their release and return to Israel. The story of the "Israeli Art Students Spy Ring" depicts the LARGEST CASE OF FOREIGN ESPIONAGE IN US HISTORY. The Official DEA Report names every single person involved, and documents their activities in detail - all this in the months and weeks prior to 9/11. The case of Larry Franklin's espionage, in concert with AIPAC - is not only well documented, he's already pled guilty to conspiracy and providing top secret information (regarding IRAN) to agents of a foreign government (Israel), the trial for which is forthcoming.

All of these matters are well documented FACTS - which point DIRECTLY to Israel's role in the FALSE FLAG ATTACK ON AMERICA which served as the pretext for war, as proscibed by the PNAC.

Not one single person on this message board can refute these FACTS, because they are FACTS.

As for writing my own stuff:

http://plungerspeaks.blogspot.com

Yes - half of it is copied from other sources to provide legitimacy, links and context to my writing, but so what. If you find anything on that page that you can prove is false, with FACTS AND LINKS to support your contentions, it is your OBLIGATION to set me straight.

Now, get busy. Read through all of the hours of research and comments, provided in CONTEXT - and then get back to me with your counterclaims, supported by links to documentation.

Posted by plunger at 03/09/2007 @ 10:20am
Supposedly, the real work all gets done behind the scenes. Hopefully, someone is writing a twist into the script. Posted by MYPARADIGM 03/08/2007 @ 4:04pm ------

I think Pelosi is indeed writing the twist to the old Beltway story -- that's why she still has the progressives and the centrists with her. What Pelosi is choreographing is a Republican auto-destruct. Each vote forces the Republicans to make clear whether they're on Bush's side, and puts more pressure on the Administration. "You want to keep your war going? Then certify whether benchmarks are being met." If Bush wants to continue his war, he'll have to admit and sign off on each item of his failure. That's why the Republicans are screaming about this. Immediate withdrawal is the only moral and financially sound option, and this plan helps force the issue.

Last night on "Newshour" the progressives clearly "had Nancy's back," sending a member of their caucus on with Clyburn the Majority Whip to fend off, beautifully, a breathtaking array of Dumb Establishment Questions from Judy Woodruff. These two members kept telling Judy that the public opposes the war 2 to 1 and that any differences the Democrats have among themselves exist because Democrats are NORMAL -- normal groups are diverse and have diverse opinions. They expressed confidence that they can get the necessary votes for their measures. This was confirmed by the NY Times this morning, which indicated that the House may well pass Pelosi's plan.

The Progressives' alternative plan (funding only for getting troops and contractors home safely) is up on their web site. I gave one of them a phone call of support.

Posted by RLawrence at 03/09/2007 @ 11:46am
Returning soon to thenation.com...the return of Wood Yee!

Posted by Announcement at 03/09/2007 @ 11:49am
Congress should de-fund the war and fund only the immediate withdrawal of troops. Yet the Democrats' plan is not merely kabuki for C-Span or a capitulation to the hawks. It's another in a series of actions that put increasing pressure on the war's supporters, in a Washington culture that is determined to protect and reinforce the Administration's policies. Keep those cards and letters going to your member to tell them to de-fund the war. But pause to congratulate yourself (and Pelosi) on the results: successful progressive measures (withdrawal legislation, government oversight, motions to oppose escalation) that were unimaginable or doomed to failure six months ago.

Posted by RLawrence at 03/09/2007 @ 12:30pm
Each vote forces the Republicans to make clear whether they're on Bush's side, and puts more pressure on the Administration.

Posted by RLAWRENCE 03/09/2007 @ 11:46am

What happens if some "blue dog" Dems go along with the Republicans on the vote?

Posted by Mask at 03/09/2007 @ 12:54pm
Returning soon to thenation.com...the return of Wood Yee!

Posted by ANNOUNCEMENT 03/09/2007 @ 11:49am | ignore this person

what an egomaniacal idiot, and on every thread too.

Posted by johannesrolf at 03/09/2007 @ 1:59pm
Republicans will not vote for aNY DEM bill that cut funds or names a cut and run date...no need to, Since anything close to that language will never see the light of day in the DEM senate..these House bills are for the left here so the Pelois can give you what you want without any cost to the leadership...they can always say.."we tried"..of cource knowing all along you have no where else to go...and should it make it through the senate..ta-da---V ETOED WITH FANFARE AND PRIDE.

Posted by john maasch at 03/09/2007 @ 2:21pm
Rese is doing a great public service - if you actually care to know the truth. Thank you for your hard work, Rese.

Posted by plunger at 03/09/2007 @ 3:45pm
I disagree with Nichols, I think the American people are the ones not ready enough yet to admit that they really acted like a bunch of dirty despicable killers - shocking and awing and terrorizing innocent Iraqis - getting rid of electicity and drinking water in Baghdad, replacing it with improved access to torture. Its time to change that behavior, because it hurts.

Democrats are doing all they can now, finally, to wake Americans up to the Republican Partys disaster getting worse in Iraq. What Democrats are not doing enough of, is calling attention to the lies and the demonization of the Iranian people, where George Bush is trying to start another war based on lies. The Democrats are doing far too little to wake Americans up to that threat.

Posted by conshame at 03/09/2007 @ 4:45pm
Posted by MASK 03/09/2007 @ 09:50am

lord mask...would you not love to get a free pass to see all the top secret shit we got hoarded?

i forget the name of the book and author (great reference, i know, lol) but a read a book some years back by an ex cia insider (written back in the 70's i think) that talked about how truly GIGANTIC and nebulous the cia had become, especially taking into account all the (often quite profitable) cia controlled companies (with semi retired spooks in powerful positions). he also talked about how massive the cia's payroll was, including payments to all sorts of assets worldwide, including schmuks who had been hired once or twice to go demonstrate against pinkos and ended up getting some chump change the rest of their lives...and being available for future use...

but i gotta believe that when the cia was forced to specifically divest from these companies, they managed to maintain lots of influence with the ex-spook ceos...

regardless, if some ideologues saw this coming, they could easily have convinced themselves we needed a pearl harbor indeed...

perhaps its so insidiously out in the open nobody sees it...

uh oh...i think the gnomes of zurich got a lead on me...gotta go...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/09/2007 @ 6:14pm
Posted by ANNOUNCEMENT 03/09/2007 @ 11:49am

FREE VIAGRA!?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/09/2007 @ 6:20pm
Democrats and surrender plans are DOA

Posted by LVLIBERTY1 03/09/2007 @ 7:02pm | ignore this person

Yes, the standard Republican ploy of reducing something as complex as Iraq into a sports metaphor; yes, the Democrats are attempting to surrender: to reality.

Posted by Oustbush at 03/09/2007 @ 8:28pm
"John Kerry calls for filibuster to end the war." Unfortunately he did so in 1971 - but will not do so now.

It takes only 41 Senate votes to cut off funding in a veto-proof way. While it takes 60 votes to pass something done in the Senate, it takes only 41 to STOP something. (In fact it takes only one Senator to filibuster and 40 more simply to abstain. Then the 60 votes for cloture are not there and the funding supplemental is dead.)

PLEASE SIGN AND CIRCULATE THE PETITION ON: WWW.FILIBUSTERFORPEACE.ORG

And any feedback is welcome. Cheers, jw

Posted by jvwalshmd1 at 03/11/2007 @ 7:09pm