Condoleezza "False Promise" Rice

As Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice goes through the charade of meeting with international leaders to discuss the crisis in the Middle East – while showing her true sentiments with a firm rejection of the "false promise" of a ceasefire – observers of the carnage might reasonably ask: Is there anyone in Washington who wants the killing to stop?

In fact, there are a few dozen brave members of Congress who have leant their names to a call for halting the violence and allowing diplomacy to replace the bombs and bullets that are ripping apart whole regions of Lebanon, Israel and Palestine.

Twenty-four members of the House of Representatives have endorsed House Continuing Resolution 450: "Calling upon the President to appeal to all sides in the current crisis in the Middle East for an immediate cessation of violence and to commit United States diplomats to multi-party negotiations with no preconditions."

Submitted by Ohio Democrat Dennis Kucinich, the measure resolves that Congress:

(1) calls upon the President to--

(A) appeal to all sides in the current crisis in the Middle East for an immediate cessation of violence;

(B) commit United States diplomats to multi-party negotiations with no preconditions; and

(C) send a high-level diplomatic mission to the region to facilitate such multi-party negotiations…

The resolution also "urges such multi-party negotiations to begin as soon as possible, including delegations from the governments of Israel, the Palestinian Authority, Lebanon, Iran, Syria, Jordan, and Egypt; and supports an international peacekeeping mission to southern Lebanon to prevent cross-border skirmishes during such multi-party negotiations."

The members of the House who have signed onto Kucinich's resolution include:

Neil Abercrombie of Hawaii

Tammy Baldwin of Wisconsin

Emanuel Cleaver of Missouri

John Conyers Jr. of Michigan

Danny Davis of Illinois

Bob Filner of California

Raul Grijalva of Arizona

Maurice Hinchey of New York

Mike Honda of California

Marcy Kaptur of Ohio

Carolyn Kilpatrick of Michigan

Barbara Lee of California

Betty McCollum of Minnesota

Jim McDermott of Washington

Gregory Meeks of New York

James Moran of Virginia

Charles Rangel of New York

Bobby Rush of Illinois

Louise Slaughter of New York

Hilda Solis of California

Pete Stark of California

Maxine Waters of California

Lynn Woolsey of California.

"Everyday this Administration sits on the sidelines the chance for a peaceful resolution becomes less likely," says Kucinich. "Every day this Administration sits on the sidelines more innocent civilians on all sides are dying. Every day this Administration sits on the sidelines America's already poor reputation in the world community gets worse."

Kucinich is right. But is it not also true that every day members of Congress sit on the sidelines – refusing to pressure the Bush administration to get serious about a ceasefire -- they too make the chance for a peaceful resolution less likely.

Two dozen members of Congress are doing something. What about the other 411 representatives? What about the 100 senators?

Peace Action is urging Americans to contact their Congressional representatives to: Demand that they do everything in their power to effect an immediate ceasefire in the current hostilities in the Middle East. For more information, visit their website at www.peaceaction.org

Progressive Democrats of America has launched a campaign to get members of the House to cosponsor the Kucinich resolution. For more information, visit their website at: www.pdamerica.org

Says PDA Executive Director Tim Carpenter: "It is unacceptable to stand and watch as the violence escalates."

It's more than just unfortunate – it is tragedy writ large -- that Condoleezza Rice does not share this sentiment.

Comments (247)

1. surprise, surprise.....

   maxine, barbara and lynn......three incredible women, from an incredible state.

   Posted by darladoon at 07/22/2006 @ 4:57pm

2. Extremely sad that this resolution has gotten so little attention and support. It speaks volumes about our continued willingness to unconditionally support a nation that cares very little about loss of life in the region, as long as it isn't loss of Jewish life. I'm beginning to think the 08' republican party theme will be very simple................ "Kill all Arabs".

   Posted by jpolston at 07/22/2006 @ 5:35pm

3. It's an astonishing story. The dog of Zionism cozies up to its first master, the British, long enough to get "legitimacy" through the Balfour Declaration then proceeds to bite the master's hand when it see's the chance to break free (after WWII). Yet, needing protection still, it siddles up to a new master, the US, and proceeds to take us on a long walk into an dark, deadend alley where ambush is a virtual certainty. I would like it if someone would wake me up about now, before the real nightmare begins. Will somebody please pull off the AIPAC gang's mask and free us from this noose....I mean...tether?

   Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/22/2006 @ 6:21pm

4. it must really warm the hearts of THE NATION's writers, editors and publisher to know their efforts inspire such thoughtful exchanges.

   Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 6:29pm

5. I am grateful to Kucinich and other members of Congress for standing up for the lives of Lebanese and Palestinian men, women and children, by calling immediately for a ceasefire. Frankly, I think this is a land-grab by Israel: Turn southern Lebanon and the Occupied Territories into a wasteland; herd all Lebanese and Palestinians into refugee camps or over the border into Syria; establish a military protectorate of what's left of Lebanon, paid for by the international community; finish the wall, expand the settlements and proclaim a Greater Israel with Jerusalem as its capital. This is my guess for C. Rice's grand new plan for the Middle East.

   Posted by prairdog at 07/22/2006 @ 6:38pm

6. I too am grateful to Kucinich and the others for their bravery. But that is the point. "Bravery" shouldn't be necessary to call for a simple ceasefire that any sane observer agrees is the obvious first step. Our media won't even comment on the absurdity of only a handful of US congress members calling for the obvious. I am not even close to being an anti-semite, but for crying out loud, the current situation screams for a frank discussion of the monetary forces controlling congressional votes. Then maybe we can go on to discuss the "Versaille on the Potomac", our multi-tentacled Pentagon beast. Would you like to begin the discussion NK?

   Posted by b_kool_66 at 07/22/2006 @ 7:04pm

7. DARLADOON: Don't forget Louise Slaughter from my town Fairport, NY.

   It's interesting that 9/24 (38%) of the signees to H. Con. Res. 450 are women, while the overall female representation in Congress is 67/435 (15%). Are women more interested in trying to stop the killing of innocent men, women and children?

   Posted by larrywirth at 07/22/2006 @ 7:20pm

8. Spoken like a resolute anti-semite!

   Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 7:21pm

   so rio

   you didn't know about the zionist wave of terror launched against the british then did you.

   it not suprising that that wasn't included in the hamsterland fantasy

   Posted by Will C. at 07/22/2006 @ 7:31pm

9. If that were even remotely true then there was no reason to cede back territory after the 1967 war! Your arguement holds no water!

   Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 7:19pm

   but rio

   based on his argument they are not ceding back any land. They are simply created a walled prison...

   and then creating hell on the other side of the wall.

   It sure sounds like a good way for you evangelic hamsters to commence your beloved rapture

   Posted by Will C. at 07/22/2006 @ 7:39pm

10. 1. israel agreed to a two state solution from the outset, in 1948, but it was rejected by the palestinians, who instead attacked israel along with several arab countries. 2. israel's occupation of the west bank and gaza was a result of success in a defensive war. late in his life, king hussein openly acknowledged that the biggest mistake he ever made was acceding to the desperate demands of nasser to open a third front in 67 notwithstanding israeli pleas not to do so as the jewish state had no territorial ambitions and wanted no hostilities with jordan, the occupying power. and please remember that no one other than the brits and pakistan recognized jordan as the sovereign in the west bank during that period (48-67); in other words, there never has been internationally recognized sovereignty following the british mandate, not then, not today. 3. even though israel did not come into "occupation" (quotes only because of the point made above; i accept that the overwhelming majority of the population is palestinian arab and should be the home of the state of palestine, though i do not understand why it has to be judenrein) of the west bank and gaza until 1967, fatah and the plo were formed in 1964, obviously for the express purpose of eliminating israel. 4. a significant element of the palestinian people have never renounced their desire to eliminate israel, and have acted on this desire since the mid-60s be engaging in acts of terror against israel and jews outside israel. they have done this from within the west bank and gaza, and from neighboring states, primarily lebanon, where the plo created a terrorist state within a state in 1970 after being evicted by a chagrined and angry king hussein. 5. in 2000, an enormous diplomatic effort was undertaken by clinton, who was able to coax pm barak into making far-reaching concessions to the palestinians, who chose in the end not to negotiate but to begin the second intifadah, killing hundreds of israelis. 6. things did not get better in south lebanon following the eviction of the plo, and now another terrorist group, hezbollah, is the state within a state that wants to continue hostilities even though israel has complied with all u.n. resolutions and requirements as part of its full withdrawal from lebanon. 7. rather than taking half measures that would allow hezbollah to return and continue the violence, israel, in the face of all this history, evidently believes its powers of deterrence have been eroded by appeasing the international community's desire to see, at best, "proportional" steps taken in response, and is currently engaged in kicking the crap out of hezbollah. lebanon and its people are paying a very heavy price for their noncompliance with u.n. resolution 1559 calling for that government to assume full sovereignty right up to the israeli border with the concurrent need to disarm hezbollah. what's to discuss?

    Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 8:36pm

11. I see no proof anywhere that man has any control over that occurrence, and most enjoy life here to much to truthfully desire what they should.

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 8:21pm

    Everything after the comma is gibberish

    And if you haven't seen any proof that man has any control over that occurrence you are sadly out of touch with the reality of nuclear weapons (nukuler to you hamsters)

    In a universe governed by god's physical laws, nuclear war is really the only way you can get all the good people to suddenly evaporate...

    Leaving the bad people die a slow agonizing death in the vast waste land

    Posted by Will C. at 07/22/2006 @ 8:39pm

12. Yes, yes, once agian we return to the whole history of the establishment of Israel. And that makes what Kucinich is proposing wrong because...? We need to appeal to both sides on the basis of what is possible now, not on the basis of past (and highly competing) claims. I am the first, as most of you well know by now, to make an argument from history (being my profession, and all) but there comes a time when history must be laid aside by those who seek better solutions. No side in this conflict is without stain, the protestations of NK or B_Kool or Rio Bravo or anyone else not withstanding. But how does that translate into standing by and allowing the vast number of innocents on all sides to be killed, wounded, displaced, and traumatized while we who have power and claim a moral mandate do nothing? At least Kucinich is doing what he can, which is considerably more than you can say for BushCo. As I've said before, they are after a fantasy of their own making, an idea of remaking the world in an image that cannot exist, so they sit by hoping for the opportunity to advance their fantasy. Meanwhile, more die who do not need to. If any of us claim to be American patriots, we had better demand that our leaders, no matter who they are, live up to American ideals rather than playing games of power with the lives of others.

    Posted by Stwriley at 07/22/2006 @ 9:01pm

13. israel is very far from having no stain. not even israelis would make such a claim. and bush likely is the worst american president in history; certainly in the bottom five. but i go through the history only because most people here want to ignore it, pretend each moment is divorced from what came before, do not want to understand the context in which israel never lives a day without being under siege with people calling for its extermination.

    Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 9:07pm

14. Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 7:21pm: Spoken like a resolute anti-semite!

    Gee. And what do you call someone who anxiously waits for the Rapture, so that he will be raised to heaven while all of the Jews are slaughtered?

    I know. A stupid anti-semite who believes in fairy tales.

    In your case, however, I think we should make that: a stupid bed-wetting anti-semitic pansy who believes in fairy tales.

    Yup. That's the ticket.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:18pm

15. Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 8:21pm: most enjoy life here to much to truthfully desire what they should.

    What is it that people should truthfully desire?

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:20pm

16. Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 8:36pm

    And why does this justify Israel slaughtering innocent Lebanese children?

    And even if it does justify it in your mind, why would you possibly think it is a smart policy?

    How many Israelis were killed by Hezbollah rockets in the 6 years between their withdrawal from Lebanon and the kidnapping of the Israeli soldiers? And how many Israelis have been killed by Hezbollah rockets in the subsequent 12 days?

    If I were an Israeli, I don't think I would feel that this new plan for peace is making me safer.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:24pm

17. Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 9:07pm: but i go through the history only because most people here want to ignore it

    No, NK. People here don't want to ignore it. They want to move beyond it.

    It serves little purpose to stand around like a 5 year old arguing:

    "You started it".

    "No! You started it!".

    "Did not. You're a loser. And you started it".

    "Nyah Nyah Nyah Nyah".

    Who started it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is finding a way to stop it.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:28pm

18. by the way, i particularly like the notion we should live up to american ideals, which, when placed in the context of what americans face in the post 9-11 world, suggests that one take off the rose colored glasses and take very seriously those who openly way they want to eliminate israel, kill very jew, destroy the united states and other democratic nations to make the world safe for islamic fundamentalism. perhaps discussion IS worthwhile so that these truths become more evident to those who are afraid to see things as they are.

    Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 9:29pm

19. Posted by STWRILEY 07/22/2006 @ 9:01pm

    ST,

    High sounding but empty rhetoric. You want to abandon history but who cares, certainly not the chief protagonists. Their "histories" are too deeply embedded to abandon them. You and others are puffing out your chests as though the U.S. , or the EU for that matter, can wave a magic wand and make peace between the warring factions. Both sides have too much to lose now to seek a compromise peace. That Lebanon will suffer in this conflict is a sad reality.

    Even a temporary peace is more likely to be put in place after both sides are hurt enough to seek a respite from their fixed positions of hostility. However if we are to believe that Iran is behind this hostility toward Israel, to further its plans for that state, then we all might be in for a much longer and more extensive war than any of us wish to see.

    Of one thing we can be certain Israel, with the most powerful military force in the region, isn't leaving what it regards as its homeland nor will the U.S. or Europe abandon it.

    Seems that the only longer term solution lies in getting the radicals to change their thinking about Israel's right to a place in the ME.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:33pm

20. orwell, thanks for making my point about those who refuse to see things in proper context, who want to pretend the world began today. i promise you that there is not one political leader in the entire world who takes that approach, and that as much as you want to wish away the past, it matters. i would agree if you were saying that one can get trapped in the past, that it's destructive if there is no creative thinking, and that one's past is not necessarily determinative of the future, but your approach is to put your head in the sand. when you ignore the past, you are not part of any serious discussion about the future

    Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 9:33pm

21. Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 9:29pm:

    Ahh. Now I see. You are afraid. Right NK? In this "post 9-11 world", you are very afraid.

    And you think that the way to calm your fear is to lash out and kill random people.

    Like Iraqi children.

    And Lebanese children.

    And Afghan children.

    None of whom seek to destroy the United States.

    But we, apparently, in a post 9-11 world, seek to destroy them.

    Maybe instead of killing random people, you should just hide under your bed. It works for Brave River.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:34pm

22. Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 9:33pm: thanks for making my point

    No problem, NK. Always happy to help.

    i promise you that there is not one political leader in the entire world who takes that approach

    Really? So the members of Congress sponsoring HR 450 don't count? How about Kofi Annan? Or Putin? Or Blair? Do they count?

    I take it your promises don't count for much?

    but your approach is to put your head in the sand

    Thanks for clarifying my approach. I did not know that I advocated putting my head in the sand. Now I know. Thanks.

    And you advocate what? Endless slaughter? Does the fear really recede when you see the scattered pieces of 3 year old children on the ground?

    You are, actually, one sick pup.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:41pm

23. Posted by LRJONES4 07/22/2006 @ 9:33pm: You and others are puffing out your chests as though the U.S. , or the EU for that matter, can wave a magic wand and make peace between the warring factions.

    More bloodlust blather. The US could stop Israeli's destruction of Lebanon by telling them to stop. And advising them that if they do not stop, we will stop supplying them with weapons. And money.

    But instead, we are resupplying them with an emergency shipment of child-killing bombs. Like the emergency shipment of child-killing bombs that we are sending out to them today.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 9:45pm

24. right, and in your infinite wisdom you have chosen to put false and strange words in my mouth, as if you had a clue about my views about iraq, afghanistan and lebanon and their children. the more intellectually blind, the more arrogant. but most odd is your notion that the leaders you cite choose entirely to ignore history. how truly bizarre that you think that, not unlike your conceipt that childish blather about fear contributes anything, though i have long since abandoned any hope that people actually engage in genuine dialogue in these self-absorbed missives. no, i do not exempt myself, except for now. ciao

    Posted by nk at 07/22/2006 @ 10:01pm

25. Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 10:01pm: in your infinite wisdom

    Thanks NK.

    you have chosen to put false and strange words in my mouth

    I didn't put them there, NK. They came out on their own. If you choose to label them "false" and "strange", so be it.

    but most odd is your notion that the leaders you cite choose entirely to ignore history

    Odd indeed. I don't believe that I claimed that they choose entirely to ignore history. Perhaps, you are English-challenged?

    I wrote: "No, NK. People here don't want to ignore it. They want to move beyond it...Who started it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is finding a way to stop it."

    To which you replied, "i promise you that there is not one political leader in the entire world who takes that approach,".

    I believe that the people I cited have all expressed positions similar to "Who started it doesn't matter anymore. What matters is finding a way to stop it.".

    not unlike your conceipt that childish blather about fear contributes anything

    I thought it might contribute to an understanding of the root causes of your desire to destroy Lebanon. Fear can do that. Perhaps you have an alternative explanation for your bloodlust, NK?

    though i have long since abandoned any hope that people actually engage in genuine dialogue in these self-absorbed missives

    Since you long since abandoned it, what's your beef?

    ciao

    Shalom.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 10:31pm

26. Posted by ORWELL2005 07/22/2006 @ 9:45pm

    O,

    You live in a fairyland. The world is not populated by kind fairies but by many terrible ogres. Your idealism is commendable but likely to be swamped in a world that doesn't seem to care. That is why some of us rely on a combination of military force, negotiation and debate at nation level to keeep the ogres at bay but all the while knowing that future generations, despite all the Ghandis of this world,will deal with their own, new lot of "goodies and baddies" (given the human race still exists). Having said that, keep on trying to make the world a better place, if nothing else you will at least know you have tried. That should make you feel better.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/22/2006 @ 10:59pm

27. NK

    nd please remember that no one other than the brits and pakistan recognized jordan as the sovereign in the west bank during that period (48-67); in other words, there never has been internationally recognized sovereignty following the british mandate, not then, not today. 3. even though israel did not come into "occupation" (quotes only because of the point made above;

    First of all, the UN plan called for an Arab state in the West Bank. They may have rejected the partition plan but that doesn't give Israel any legitimate claim, so therefore the territory is occupied. This makes the settlements illegal as per the Geneva Convention, and in fact the sole reason for the settlements was to create "facts on the ground"; essentially for them to be the shackles of the West Bank. So not wanting them there isn't an aspiration to make the place "judenrein" (and don't get me started on how demagogic your use of the Nazi phrase is here), it's asking for a reversal of an illegal policy.

    5. in 2000, an enormous diplomatic effort was undertaken by clinton, who was able to coax pm barak into making far-reaching concessions to the palestinians, who chose in the end not to negotiate but to begin the second intifadah, killing hundreds of israelis.

    Finally, although I can't defend Arafat's starting the second intifada, let's remember the Barak's offer would've allowed Israel to maintain control over freeways to the Jordan Valley and the Valley itself, thus cutting the Palestianian territories into three islands--so the 94% statement is deceptive.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/22/2006 @ 11:05pm

28. Posted by LRJONES4 07/22/2006 @ 10:59pm: You live in a fairyland.

    If its fairyland, why does it suck?

    The world is not populated by kind fairies but by many terrible ogres.

    I would argue that the world is populated by some kind fairies, some terrible ogres, and a whole lot of people in between. Its those shades of gray that seems to give the Dear Leader Society such confusion.

    Your idealism is commendable

    I hardly consider myself idealistic. But thanks for the commendation anyways.

    but likely to be swamped in a world that doesn't seem to care.

    Likely? I would say that it is a certainty.

    But it would be equally certain regardless of my particular views or actions. The views and actions of the other 6+ billion people on the planet will certainly swamp mine. And they will certainly not care a whit that they are doing it.

    That is why some of us rely on a combination of military force, negotiation and debate at nation level

    It seems apparent that the Dear Leader Society is quite adept at its reliance on military force, but woefully incompetent in its reliance on negotiation and debate.

    And if you referring to your own views, as opposed to those of the Dear Leader Society, that is commendable but likely to be swamped in a world that doesn't seem to care.

    to keeep the ogres at bay

    The ogres in Lebanon, Iraq, Syria, and Iran do not pose an existential threat to the United States. They never have. They never will.

    while knowing that future generations will deal with their own, new lot of "goodies and baddies"

    They will also have to deal with a hell of a lot of truly existential problems that we are leaving for them to solve while we boldly go seeking new wars to fight.

    Problems that are much easier to solve now than later.

    Having said that, keep on trying to make the world a better place, if nothing else you will at least know you have tried.

    Thanks, but I'm not trying to make the world a better place. I just can't stand reading the drivel and stupidity that comes out of the whackjob fringe. It is absolutely mind-boggling to me that people can be this stupid.

    That should make you feel better.

    Thanks. Unfortunately, it doesn't.

    But, I am sure that you are absolutely elated at the escalating blood, carnage, and destruction that we are bringing to the world. And, if your wildest dreams come true, maybe Israel or the US will even nuke someone, so that we all may live in peace.

    War is Peace, my friend.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 11:34pm

29. Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 11:20pm: So the real question I pondered is why do you bother to ask, and your attitude on this thread and others provided the answer. So end of comment.

    I bother to ask because I did not know and I was curious as to what it might be. But apparently, you are unwilling to state your answer. That is not surprising, given that you are known by many to be a bedwetting pansy.

    But, if my attitude on this thread and others precludes you from providing the answer to me, perhaps you would consider sharing it with the other readers of this blog. There may others out there who are also curious as to what it is that people should truthfully desire with respect to the carnage in Lebanon.

    Or, are you too scared to even state what you think?

    Strange for someone who names himself Brave River.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/22/2006 @ 11:40pm

30. Spoken like a resolute anti-semite!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/22/2006 @ 7:21pm

    Why can't you guys at least get your semantics right? To qualify as an "anti-semite", you need to find someone who hates the Jews and the Arabs with equal vigour. Failing that, the person could at best be "anti-Jewish" or "anti-Arab". To be more accurate in the current context, the former option should be "anti-Israeli": speaking out against Israel's genocidal attacks is no more "anti-Jewish" than speaking out against Hizbollah's attacks is "anti-Islamic". And the Palestinians at least have the excuse of fighting for their own land; the Israelis are just defending an illegal and immoral land grab.

    Posted by oneworld at 07/23/2006 @ 05:50am

31. Posted by ONEWORLD 07/23/2006 @ 05:50am

    Shit oneworld what's the matter with the U.S. education system (I take it you did attend school in the U.S.). At least you have come to the right place to learn. Here's some help with your education, belated granted but gratis:

    ANTI-SEMITISM: ETYMOLOGY AND USAGE

    The word antisemitic (antisemitisch in German) was probably first used in 1860 by the Jewish scholar Moritz Steinschneider in the phrase "antisemitic prejudices" (German: "antisemitische Vorurteile"). Steinschneider used this phrase to characterize Ernest Renan's ideas about how "Semitic races" were inferior to "Aryan races." These pseudo-scientific theories concerning race, civilization, and "progress" had become quite widespread in Europe in the second half of the 19th century, especially as Prussian nationalistic historian Heinrich von Treitschke did much to promote this form of racism. In Treitschke's writings Semitic was practically synonymous with Jewish, in contrast to its usage by Renan and others.

    German political agitator Wilhelm Marr coined the related German word Antisemitismus in his book "The Way to Victory of Germanicism over Judaism" in 1879. Marr used the phrase to mean Jew-hatred or Judenhass, and he used the new word antisemitism to make hatred of the Jews seem rational and sanctioned by scientific knowledge. Marr's book became very popular, and in the same year he founded the "League of Anti-Semites" ("Antisemiten-Liga"), the first German organization committed specifically to combatting the alleged threat to Germany posed by the Jews, and advocating their forced removal from the country.

    So far as can be ascertained, the word was first widely printed in 1881, when Marr published "Zwanglose Antisemitische Hefte," and Wilhelm Scherer used the term "Antisemiten" in the "Neue Freie Presse" of January. The related word semitism was coined around 1885. See also the coinage of the term "Palestinian" by Germans to refer to the nation or people known as Jews, as distinct from the religion of Judaism.

    Despite the use of the prefix "anti," the terms Semitic and Anti-Semitic are not antonyms. To avoid the confusion of the misnomer, many scholars on the subject (such as Emil Fackenheim of the Hebrew University) now favor the unhyphenated term antisemitism. Yehuda Bauer articulated this view in his writings and lectures: (the term) "Antisemitism, especially in its hyphenated spelling, is inane nonsense, because there is no Semitism that you can be anti to.")[6][7]

    The term anti-Semitism has historically referred to prejudice towards Jews alone, and this was the only use of this word for more than a century. It does not traditionally refer to prejudice toward other people who speak Semitic languages (e.g. Arabs or Assyrians). Bernard Lewis, Professor of Near Eastern Studies Emeritus at Princeton University, says that "Anti-Semitism has never anywhere been concerned with anyone but Jews."[8]

    The above abstract is from Wikepedia if you'd like to check the full article and references.

    So you see oneworld anti-semites means haters of Jews full stop (or period in American English). It has no other meaning but the sense in which Rio Bravo used it.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/23/2006 @ 06:58am

32. LRJONES

    A rare point of agreement! It's kind of a minor annoyance with me when people mess of the semantics of that term.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 07:14am

33. and.....

    the SAME "Two Dozen" show up, with Dennis, of course.

    Which brings up a point....why isnt Kucinich ever around when the "two dozen House reps" calling for impeachment hearings are mentioned?

    Conyers and Hinchey, sure....but Dennis is missing for those?!!?!?

    Posted by Mask at 07/23/2006 @ 07:40am

34. Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 07:14am

    B,

    Just a bit too lazy to really check out on your "articles of faith" and it's after 11.30pm Sunday here so won't go through all your posts now but didn't think you were one of the real maddies.

    I'm a bit of a Bush fan not only because I like his ME policies and his decisiveness but also because he is a bit of a maddie in a nice sort of way. Love the way he mutilates the language but can understand how he might be a bit of an embarrassment for some who think their President should have gravitas.

    He doesn't compare with Clinton intellectually (heard him on speaking tours out here) but is the man who was needed to confront the Muslim extremists head on, I'm sure he, unlike any other of your recent Presidents, has "put the fear of God" into the extremists because he "talks their language" (of swift retribution). I have no doubt that they have a healthier respect for the U.S. than they did in Reagan's and Clinton's days when bin Laden openly mocked the U.S. as cowards ((in reference to Beirut and Mogadishu) the latter defeat probably leading to Clinton's abysmal performance and perhaps criminal inaction during the Rwandan genocide).

    My support for Israel and the Jews as a people in general is not based on religious considerations of privilege but because I believe the Western world owes it to them. As a numerically tiny and often persecuted people they have contributed tremendously in every area of post- Enlightenment intellectual endeavour. We non-Jews have been and still are the beneficiaries of that great legacy.

    If ever the Arabs get around to accepting and co-operating with the Jews the ME will be a tremendous place for Arabs and Jews alike.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/23/2006 @ 09:48am

35. It's interesting that 9/24 (38%) of the signees to H. Con. Res. 450 are women, while the overall female representation in Congress is 67/435 (15%). Are women more interested in trying to stop the killing of innocent men, women and children?

    Posted by LARRYWIRTH 07/22/2006 @ 7:20pm

    Yes. Because the women in Congress have enough balls to stand up to the israel lobby and the men don't.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 10:24am

36. by the way, i particularly like the notion we should live up to american ideals, which, when placed in the context of what americans face in the post 9-11 world, suggests that one take off the rose colored glasses and take very seriously those who openly way they want to eliminate israel, kill very jew, destroy the united states and other democratic nations to make the world safe for islamic fundamentalism. perhaps discussion IS worthwhile so that these truths become more evident to those who are afraid to see things as they are.

    Posted by NK 07/22/2006 @ 9:29pm

    NK, why don't you crawl back under your neo-nazi, zionist rock? You remind me of the nazis of the 1930's who were always sincerely explaining that "the Jews" were out to destroy the German race and something had to be done about them.

    I guess creatures like you are continually reincarnated to seek out new victims. For you, the "kikes" and "niggers" of today are the Arabs and Muslims. There must be some cosmic reason why the human race is cursed with evil spirits like you, some original sin for which the bill has yet to be paid.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 10:35am

37. I have three general thoughts about the situation in Lebanon. None of them reflects well on Israel.

    1. If Israel had gone in and tried to clean out this hornet's nest in southern Lebanon, I don't think anybody would have objected. But Israel's initial and continuing destruction of Lebanon's physical and economic infrastructure, involving the deaths of hundreds of innocent civilians, is not just ‘disproportionate.' Israel is really waging war against Lebanon, not against Hizbullah. So this is a difference in kind, not degree. It will take Lebanon years to recover from this destruction. I think Israel should have to pay reparations for this, and it should not involve one dime of U.S. taxpayer money.

    2. It is clear that the Bush administration is 100% behind Israel in whatever it does. No surprises there. What does astound me, really, is the unwillingness of any prominent politicians to criticize Israel. In particular, a resolution passed the House basically saying that Israel was totally justified in what it has done in Lebanon. This resolution passed by a vote of 410-8. I want to repeat that: It passed by a vote of four hundred and ten to eight. Our congresspeople are supposed to be representative of the electorate as a whole. Does this mean that 98% of the American people think that Israel's conduct in Lebanon has been totally justified? No.

    This brings up the hoary issue that nobody wants to talk about (but some people are beginning to), the elephant in the room, as it were: The influence/control of the Israel Lobby (specifically, the America-Israel Public Affairs Committee--AIPAC). To my mind, this resolution is not in America's national interest. Almost unanimously, the rest of the world believes that Israel's conduct has not been totally justified. By its blanket approval of this conduct, the House is making enemies for America that we don't need to have. This is not in our national interest. The tail is wagging the dog here.

    At some point, major politicians have got to start addressing the fact that voting against our own national interest in order to maintain their campaign contributions is not a good idea. At some point, the Israel Lobby itself has got to become a campaign issue.

    3. Does saying such things make me an anti-Semite? I don't think so. I'm very glad to have found some Jewish groups (Jewish Voice for Peace, Michael Lerner's Tikkun group) that are also saying these kinds of things. What gets me is that, as far as I can tell, a solid majority of American Jews are on the progressive left, yet when it comes to Israel they seem willing to let AIPAC do their wheeling and dealing for them. AIPAC is a very right-wing organization, hand in glove with the Likkud and the nutkook ultra-Orthodox and settlers who think that ‘God gave us this land six thousand years ago--AND THAT'S IT!' In polls I've seen, the overwhelming majority of American Jews--like the overwhelming majority of other Americans--believe that the Palestinians should their own state, economically viable, a solid piece of real estate. I think these progressive Jews need to start speaking out and then putting their money where their mouths are. I also think we need a few profiles in courage in Congress--people who are willing to stand up to AIPAC. Failing those things, this group's distorting influence on our foreign policy is only going to continue.

    Posted by gmd at 07/23/2006 @ 10:47am

38. That's because to the Israelis, "cease fire" means stop shooting until we are attached again. To Hezbolla, "cease fire" means reload.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 07/23/2006 @ 08:39am

    you know it's funny but from where I'm sitting, the israeli's are seeking detachment...

    and hezbollah is more than happy to help them

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 10:54am

39. and what's this "we" shit white man?

    are you israeli?

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 10:54am

40. my purpose in writing has not been to bait, but it is perversely gratifying to have israel haters reveal themselves so openly. so now we have birdbrain's latest offering equating zionism, the national liberation movement of the jewish people, with nazism. this sick argument certainly is not new, as israel's enemies have hurled this hateful venom at it for decades, believing that no other words could cut as deeply. as i have pointed out before, this stuff does the palestinians no favors. those palestinians who want a reversal of the positions taken by their pathetic leadership over the last 60 years, those who want a palestinian state to live side by side in peace with israel and who assert their legitimate grievances not by resorting to name calling or violence, surely wish you would find your own pebble to crawl under.

    Posted by nk at 07/23/2006 @ 10:56am

41. damn

    this guy must hang with our boy liberty

    everywhere they turn... nothing but hate

    I thank jesus I'm not them

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 11:01am

42. LRJONES

    My post to which you are replying said simply "LRJONES

    A rare point of agreement! It's kind of a minor annoyance with me when people mess of the semantics of that term." Are you sure you're replying to me?

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 11:04am

43. my purpose in writing has not been to bait, but it is perversely gratifying to have israel haters reveal themselves so openly. so now we have birdbrain's latest offering equating zionism, the national liberation movement of the jewish people, with nazism. this sick argument certainly is not new, as israel's enemies have hurled this hateful venom at it for decades

    Posted by NK 07/23/2006 @ 10:56am

    Actually, I don't at all believe that there is an exact equivalence between German nazism and Jewish zionism. For example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews, but they DIDN'T then move German immigrant settlers into the homes and land of the victims.

    Other differences could be found. What's notable, however, are the many essential areas of similarity. For example, the essential similarity of nazi racism to zionism's vicious cultural/ethnic exclusivism.

    Do you think that continually referring to me as "birdbrain" supplies the spine of credibility that's lacking in your zionist conquest propaganda?

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 11:24am

44. Do you think that continually referring to me as "birdbrain" supplies the spine of credibility that's lacking in your zionist conquest propaganda?

    Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 11:24am

    when coupled with this statement

    those who want a palestinian state to live side by side in peace with israel and who assert their legitimate grievances not by resorting to name calling or violence, surely wish you would find your own pebble to crawl under.

    Posted by NK 07/23/2006 @ 10:56am

    NK calling you "birdbrain" puts him into the same league as the name calling, violent terrorists

    but then I've been saying all a long that our hamsters aren't any different from their hamsters

    none of them can ever cause enough death and destruction

    none of them can ever cause enough pain

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 11:32am

45. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 11:24am | ignore this person

    FROMREDBIRD, local representative for Hezbollah and Hamas, makes the scene.

    This guy lives upto Ari Berman's "The reflexively anti-Israel Left"...and then some!

    Posted by Mask at 07/23/2006 @ 11:36am

46. This guy lives upto Ari Berman's "The reflexively anti-Israel Left"...and then some!

    Posted by MASK 07/23/2006 @ 11:36am

    reflexively implies uncontrolled, involuntary behavior

    perhaps you haven't been keeping up with redbirds arguments

    they are neither uncontrolled... or involuntary

    (so you're going to have to come up with some better bullshit )

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 11:46am

47. The Myth of the Generous Offer [tinyurl.com] Distorting the Camp David negotiations

    Under the plan, Israel would have withdrawn completely from the small Gaza Strip. But it would annex strategically important and highly valuable sections of the West Bank--while retaining "security control" over other parts--that would have made it impossible for the Palestinians to travel or trade freely within their own state without the permission of the Israeli government (Political Science Quarterly, 6/22/01; New York Times, 7/26/01; Report on Israeli Settlement in the Occupied Territories, 9-10/00; Robert Malley, New York Review of Books, 8/9/01).

    The annexations and security arrangements would divide the West Bank into three disconnected cantons. In exchange for taking fertile West Bank lands that happen to contain most of the region's scarce water aquifers, Israel offered to give up a piece of its own territory in the Negev Desert--about one-tenth the size of the land it would annex--including a former toxic waste dump.

    Because of the geographic placement of Israel's proposed West Bank annexations, Palestinians living in their new "independent state" would be forced to cross Israeli territory every time they traveled or shipped goods from one section of the West Bank to another, and Israel could close those routes at will. Israel would also retain a network of so-called "bypass roads" that would crisscross the Palestinian state while remaining sovereign Israeli territory, further dividing the West Bank.

    Israel was also to have kept "security control" for an indefinite period of time over the Jordan Valley, the strip of territory that forms the border between the West Bank and neighboring Jordan. Palestine would not have free access to its own international borders with Jordan and Egypt--putting Palestinian trade, and therefore its economy, at the mercy of the Israeli military.

    Had Arafat agreed to these arrangements, the Palestinians would have permanently locked in place many of the worst aspects of the very occupation they were trying to bring to an end. For at Camp David, Israel also demanded that Arafat sign an "end-of-conflict" agreement stating that the decades-old war between Israel and the Palestinians was over and waiving all further claims against Israel.

    Map of israel's "Generous Offer" showing the "Jews only" thoroughfares whose purpose was to strangle the last bit of life out of the Palestinians. [tinyurl.com]

    Palestinian suffering in the interim period had been tempered by the prospect of the eventual implementation of UNSC Res. 242 and a just solution to the refugee problem, as outlined at the Madrid Conference and in the DoP. At Camp David, Israel finally confirmed its unwillingness to abide by - or even approach - these principles. Israel's ‘best offer' soon transpired to be yet another annexation plan based on legitimizing its permanent sovereignty over 10-13.5% of the West Bank, and maintaining its settlement and security presence in a further 8.5-12% for an unspecified interim period. [v] The remaining territory would be carved into at least three cantons, with settlement blocs, bypass roads and annexed Palestinian localities forming a barrier between the Nablus-Jenin area and Ramallah, and leaving Hebron and Bethlehem beyond an expanded Jerusalem under Israeli sovereignty (see Map 47). The entire Jordan Rift would be retained for an unspecified ‘interim' period and a corridor connecting the Hebron settlements would slice the Hebron canton in two from the south. [vi] Virtually all settlers were to remain and territorial provision was made for vast settlement expansion.

    Israel refused to accept any responsibility for the refugee problem, suggesting an international fund be es­tablished to equally compensate both them and Jewish immigrants to Israel of the same period (thus per­petu­ating the ‘population-swap' myth). [vii] Through the annexation of settlement blocs, Israel stood to legitimize its control over the major West Bank water resources; airspace was to remain in Israeli hands; the bifurcated Palestinian state was to be strictly demilitarized and Israel was to retain full control over all borders. In Jerusalem (see Map 47), Barak's ‘offer' left the Palestinians with a cluster of sovereign pockets in the outer suburbs amidst a hugely expanded Israeli ‘Greater Jerusalem.' The Old City, with its holy places, was to be under Israeli sovereignty and Palestinians granted "local safe-passage" to Al-Haram Ash-Sharif. [viii]

    In sum, nine years on from Madrid and the birth of the ‘land-for-peace' process, Israel responded to the delayed crucial issues with an unequivocal, ‘No' to refugees; ‘No' to Jerusalem; ‘No' to a return to 1967 borders; ‘No' to removing Illegal settlements; and ‘No' to Palestinian rights over natural resources. The offer, clearly unacceptable as it stood, was offered as a ‘now-or-never' maximum by an Israeli PM who lacked domestic credibility and had already reneged on his Sharm Esh-Sheikh commitments. For Arafat the offer represented, "less than a Bantustan,

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 11:55am

48. This guy lives upto Ari Berman's "The reflexively anti-Israel Left"...and then some!

    Posted by MASK 07/23/2006 @ 11:36am

    reflexively implies uncontrolled, involuntary behavior

    perhaps you haven't been keeping up with redbirds arguments

    they are neither uncontrolled... or involuntary

    (so you're going to have to come up with some better bullshit )

    Posted by WILL C. 07/23/2006 @ 11:46am

    Yeah, MASK, can't you come up with some better bullshit for me to not listen to? Bwa-ha-ha-ha! ;)

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 11:58am

49. So Joshua Bolten, Chief of Staff, says that Israel and the US want nothing more than to "empower" the Lebanese government to satisfy UN Res. 1559. This leads to two questions:

    1) Do we now refer to bombs as "tools of empowerment" and switch euphemisms from "collateral damage" to "graduates of the Israeli School of Empowerment"?

    2. Are we, as enablers of this empowerment, now going to pay more strict attention to UN Resolutions by bombing those who need a nudge into compliance? Oh...wait a sec.

    2)

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 07/23/2006 @ 12:00pm

50. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 11:55am

    nice map

    a picture really does say a thousand words

    I think I would have said no that that agreement too

    no

    (why use a thousand words when one word sums things up quite nicely)

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 12:06pm

51. The Lebanese government, whose sad oppression under the "Syrian jackboot" the US/israel was so demonstrably concerned with a few short months ago, has now learned the benefits of liberation by the two Gods that walk the earth. The Lebanese can thank the wonderful UN for doing everything it could to grease the skids.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 12:09pm

52. "Kill 'em all" israel and American bombs helping the anti-Hezbollah Lebanese finally understand where they are on the spectrumm between the Arabs and the Super Races.

    BEIRUT, Lebanon -- Israel has been unable to silence Hezbollah's television station, its powerful voice at home and in the Arab world, despite 11 days of bombing. But warplanes on Saturday did knock a Lebanese station often critical of the guerrillas off the air in parts of the country.

    LBC was an unusual target for Israel to hit. The private station - mainly Christian-owned and once the mouthpiece for the Lebanese Forces, a powerful Christian militia during the 1975-1990 civil war - is often critical of the Shiite Muslim Hezbollah. An LBC comedy show caricaturing Hezbollah's leader raised protests in June.

    The criticism continued in the early days of Israel's offensive against Lebanon, launched July 12 after Hezbollah guerrillas captured two Israeli soldiers. But even on LBC it has been increasingly overshadowed by national solidarity as casualties grew in the bombardment.

    "The message was that when south Beirut is hit, so is the north. When churches are hit, so are mosques. This is the issue we have to deal with now and then we will deal with the internal divisions later," Dejani told The Associated Press.

    http://tinyurl.com/oeoe9

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 12:18pm

53. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 12:18am

    amazing

    when attacked, they stand as one, putting aside their differences

    just like us

    those bombs really did empower them

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 12:27pm

54. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 11:55am

    nice map

    a picture really does say a thousand words

    I think I would have said no that that agreement too

    no

    (why use a thousand words when one word sums things up quite nicely)

    Posted by WILL C. 07/23/2006 @ 12:06am

    The picture painted is a question: What can you reasonably expect from a human being when you give him no alternative other than destruction?

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 12:43pm

55. I was going to go play basketball at 7:45 this AM but I cancelled because it was already too hot. The scheduled high today is 111 degrees where I am in the San Francisco bay area which will probably be another new record like yesterday. The "no such thing as global warming" crowd must be having trouble getting a sympathetic ear these days.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 12:50pm

56. FRB

    For example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews, but they DIDN'T then move German immigrant settlers into the homes and land of the victims.

    Actually, they targted the Jews for extermination--the Jews didn't just happen to be among the victims. Secondly, although I don't defend either the settlements or the current Israeli plans for the West Bank, I doubt that you can show me the equivalent of Auschwitz or Buchenwald on the West Bank.

    For example, the essential similarity of nazi racism to zionism's vicious cultural/ethnic exclusivism.

    To compare the nationalism of the Zionists to Nazi racism is demagogic. Please show me statements about Arabs by Herzl et al. analogous to statements from Mein Kampf:

    ""The Jewish youth lies in wait for hours on end...spying on the unsuspicious German girl he plans to seduce.....he wants to contaminate her blood and remove her from the bosom of her own people. The Jew hates the white race and wants to lower its cultural level so that the Jews might dominate."

    "Here he stops at nothing, and in his vileness he becomes so gigantic that no one need be surprised if among our people the personification of the devil as the symbol of all evil assumes the living shape of the Jew."

    "Now begins the great last revolution. In gaining political power the Jew casts off the few cloaks that he still wears. The democratic peoples Jew becomes the blood-Jew and tyrant over peoples. In a few years he tries to exterminate the national intelligentsia and by robbing the peoples of their natural intellectual leadership makes them ripe for the slaves lot of permanent subjugation."

    http://yad-vashem.org.il/about_holocaust/documents/part1/doc4.html

    The Lebanese government, whose sad oppression under the "Syrian jackboot" the US/israel was so demonstrably concerned with a few short months ago, has now learned the benefits of liberation by the two Gods that walk the earth. The Lebanese can thank the wonderful UN for doing everything it could to grease the skids.

    The difference is that there are no groups in Lebanon that are going after Syrian troops/civilians. Further, there were many Lebanese who demonstrated against continuation of the Syrian occupation. Were they tools of the US/Israel?

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 1:25pm

57. No, not a member of the tribe. Just a guy who recognized when the time for wishful thinking ends and the time for making tough decisions begins.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 07/23/2006 @ 1:50pm

    cool... so you're going to enlist in the israeli army then

    then you can say we and mean it

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 2:46pm

58. Ceasefire???????

    I am sure that is the best solution to stop the killing right now.

    No shit.

    How about trying to apply a long term solution, even if it means more killing now.

    That seems to be the overarching theme of this whole call for a ceasefire. Innocent civilian deaths, and who do we blame?

    The Israelis. for daring to shoot back and attacking Hezbollah who HIDE amongest the innocent civilian populations.

    The course we should take is to allow and help Israel in the destruction of Hezbollah. Degrade Hezbollah to such a state, that is unable to carry out effective actions against anyone.

    Why should Israel bend to the will of those bent on their destruction.

    Those who call for an immediate cease-fire are wholly naive at best.

    There is probably a more insidious motive to those who want this ceasfire, right now, before Hezbollah is weakened.

    Those who advocate this call for an immediate ceasefire, prefer half-measures and stop-gap/temporary solutions. That is all that can be accomplished by a cease-fire to these hostilities.

    Hezbollah will not keep their word, they never have, and they would still be strong enough to be in a position that their basic organization would still be able to recover rather quickly.

    Ask yourselves, the lovers of peace at all costs, what did Hezboallh do with the land that Israel withdrew from in south lebabnon?

    Thats right they, built bunkers/fortifications and positions from which to bombard Israel. And you want a cease-fire?

    Posted by CPT at 07/23/2006 @ 2:54pm

59. Posted by CPT 07/23/2006 @ 2:54pm

    why destroy... when you can create

    for real success, the israeli's should just build a big dome on top of the wall they have constructed

    no more rockets

    more more sun burn

    it's kind of like hitting the ignore button

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 3:07pm

60. they could even paint a big smiley face on it so they have something to point too and say... look how nice we are

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 3:08pm

61. Posted by nk at 07/23/2006 @ 3:43pm

62. I am glad that my congressman, Maurice Hinchey is on that list. While I support Israel's right to exist and defend itself, the overreacting only serves to create sympathy for Hezbulla and Hamas, two groups that I have a low regard for. Israel is making in Lebanon, a mistake similar to one that we made in Iraq.

    Posted by ken mitchell at 07/23/2006 @ 3:53pm

63. Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 1:25pm

    Not even worth rsponding to. You're fighting a losing game, Brunowe, once you go outside the realm of high explosives delivered against overmatched resistance fighters and helpless civilians. Attempting to rationalize israel's nazi-like characteristics can never amount to anything more than putting lipstick on a pig.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 4:04pm

64. Posted by CPT 07/23/2006 @ 2:54pm: How about trying to apply a long term solution, even if it means more killing now.

    CPT, your long term solution means more killing now and more killing later.

    attacking Hezbollah who HIDE amongest the innocent civilian populations.

    First of all, they are attacking far more than Hezbollah. They are attacking innocent Lebanese who have nothing whatsoever to do with Hezbollah and certainly have no control over the actions of Hezbollah.

    Secondly, they do not HIDE among innocent civilian populations, they LIVE there. If you had a life, you might understand.

    The course we should take is to allow and help Israel in the destruction of Hezbollah. Degrade Hezbollah to such a state, that is unable to carry out effective actions against anyone

    By Hezbollah, you mean Lebanon, right? There is no real way for Israel to attack Hezbollah with sufficient intensity to destroy Hezbollah, yet sufficient accuracy to only destroy Hezbollah.

    Perhaps Israel should just nuke Lebanon. That would destroy Hezbollah (or, at least, the Lebanese branch of Hezbollah). Whaddya think CPT?

    Why should Israel bend to the will of those bent on their destruction.

    There's the problem, CPT. Why should Hezbollah bend to the will of those bent on their destruction?

    Those who call for an immediate cease-fire are wholly naive at best.

    Wow. What are we at worst?

    There is probably a more insidious motive to those who want this ceasfire, right now, before Hezbollah is weakened.

    So at worst we are more insidious?

    Those who advocate this call for an immediate ceasefire, prefer half-measures and stop-gap/temporary solutions.

    Egads. How insidious...

    Hey, cap'n. Do you know what insidious means or did you just like the sound of it?

    That is all that can be accomplished by a cease-fire to these hostilities.

    That and the cease-firing part. Most people who advocate a cease-fire think the cease-firing part is quite important.

    Ask yourselves, the lovers of peace at all costs,what did Hezboallh do with the land that Israel withdrew from in south lebabnon?

    For the most part they lived there. That's what I would say to the lovers of death, carnage, mayhem, and violence at any cost.

    Thats right they, built bunkers/fortifications and positions from which to bombard Israel. And you want a cease-fire?

    Let's try again. Prior to the New Israeli Peace Plan, how many Israeli civilians were killed by Hezbollah rockets? Since the advent of the New Israeli Peace Plan, how many Israeli civilians have been killed by Hezbollah rockets?

    Those who yearn for the mutilation of more 6 year olds, should explain how this represents an improvement to Israeli security.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/23/2006 @ 4:17pm

65. You're fighting a losing game, Brunowe, once you go outside the realm of high explosives delivered against overmatched resistance fighters and helpless civilians. Attempting to rationalize israel's nazi-like characteristics can never amount to anything more than putting lipstick on a pig.

    Meaning that you don't have the facts to back your statement comparing Israel to Nazi Germany. Second, I've have said throughout that Israel as the right to after Hezbollah but they don't have the right to shake down the entire country of Lebanon to do so. Also, Hezbollah is hardly overmatched in terms of the guerilla warfare they pursue.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 4:30pm

66. For my own kicks. Nothing worthwhile here; after all, I'm just responding to CPT:

    How about trying to apply a long term solution, even if it means more killing now.

    Why do I think you really mean "especially if it means more killing now".

    That seems to be the overarching theme of this whole call for a ceasefire. Innocent civilian deaths, and who do we blame?

    The Israelis. for daring to shoot back and attacking Hezbollah who HIDE amongest the innocent civilian populations.

    Since we're talking only about two parties, the proper word is "amonger" rather than "amongest". I think the rule of thumb is usually to blame those who pull the trigger for deaths and injuries caused by the bullet: isn't this what the NRA says?

    The course we should take is to allow and help Israel in the destruction of Hezbollah. Degrade Hezbollah to such a state, that is unable to carry out effective actions against anyone.

    Since we, the Israelis and most of the world have been surprised by the number and power of the Hezbollah rockets, and yet Hezbollah's actions have been largely ineffective, couldn't we argue that they are already "unable to carry out effective actions against anyone"? They don't seem to be particularly accurate with their big, nasty weapons, do they?

    Why should Israel bend to the will of those bent on their destruction.

    By doing what? Israel is smart enough to know it will never be destroyed even if you aren't swift enough. By bringing out the flamethrower to attack an annoying mosquito, Israel has now made the mosquito look to other insects like the victim rather than the parasite.

    Those who call for an immediate cease-fire are wholly naive at best.

    At worst we are...? And what could we do to be only partially naive? What is wrong with calling for an immediate cease-fire?

    There is probably a more insidious motive to those who want this ceasfire, right now, before Hezbollah is weakened.

    Sounds sensible. Yes. Insidious, to be sure.

    Those who advocate this call for an immediate ceasefire, prefer half-measures and stop-gap/temporary solutions. That is all that can be accomplished by a cease-fire to these hostilities.

    And what is your solution to create a permanent peace? Or is that even a desirable thing for you? Can you demonstrate for anyone that you understand anything about the Middle East beyond the fact that there is fighting going on and that really gets your adrenaline flowing?

    Hezbollah will not keep their word, they never have, and they would still be strong enough to be in a position that their basic organization would still be able to recover rather quickly.

    Well, the current strategy--a two-decade strategy--seems to be proceeding real peachy-like. Are you advocating a continuation of the status quo of periods of little spits and spats interspersed with more serious flair ups or do you have a solution?

    Ask yourselves, the lovers of peace at all costs, what did Hezboallh do with the land that Israel withdrew from in south lebabnon?

    What is the cost of peace? And in terms of southern Lebanon, oh lover of war at all costs, what did and is Israel doing to the land of south Lebanon?

    Thats right they, built bunkers/fortifications and positions from which to bombard Israel. And you want a cease-fire?

    Yes. Sounds good. Things seem kinda tense with lots of unclear thinking all around. Even a moment without attacks would hurt nothing.

    Posted by CPT 07/23/2006 @ 2:54pm

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 07/23/2006 @ 4:33pm

67. For example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews, but they DIDN'T then move German immigrant settlers into the homes and land of the victims.

    Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 11:24am

    Ever heard of lebensraum?

    Posted by shapur at 07/23/2006 @ 4:35pm

68. Also, Hezbollah is hardly overmatched in terms of the guerilla warfare they pursue.

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 4:30pm

    BRUNOWE, probably everyone else in the world outside yourself has noticed that the entire country of Lebanon has been pretty much destroyed while nothing even remotely similar has been visited on nazi-like israel.

    You're veering off the deep end. That's most likely a result of spending too much time arguing for fantastically inaccurate portrayals of the career of the terror organization called israel.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 4:38pm

69. Go to this linked page [tinyurl.com] to access the additional referential links in this article. israel: the party that had more to gain from the Hariri assassination than any other and the one party that was never, ever mentioned as a possible suspect by the mainstream media. This would explain why the US has been applying major diplomatic and economic pressure on Lebanon to HALT the Lebanese investigation.

    Mehlis said that Khaled Midhat Taha, a Palestinian, had escorted suspected suicide bomber Ahmad Abu Adas to Syria two weeks before the Hariri assassination. This connection was noted by Mehlis presumably as part of Mehlis' efforts to implicate Syria. However, Khaled Midhat Taha appears to be related to Sheikh Abdullah Hallaq, founder of the Islamic Struggle Movement. The Islamic Struggle Movement is now led by none other than Sheikh Jamal Khattab.

    The Sheikh's brother, Hussein Khattab, has been identified as the leader of one Israeli spy ring operating in Lebanon (the other was led by Mahmoud Rafeh, who, unlike Khattab, has been captured). Rafeh has admitted responsibility for a number of assassinations in Lebanon that have commonly been ascribed to the Mossad (some of these assassinations appear to relate directly to removing people whose testimony could have been embarrassing to Ariel Sharon).

    It is starting to look more and more likely that the assassination of Hariri, blamed by the Israelamericans on Syria, is just another in this long line of Israeli assassinations that have occurred in Lebanon. The other aspect to this, which may have September 11 implications, is how easily the Mossad operates in the world of what appears to be radical Islamist terrorist groups.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 4:47pm

70. I keep looking through the UN Resolution to find the phrasing that indicates that Israel or any country outside of Lebanon is either invited or ordered to enforce all other elements within the resolution. If someone finds this, let me know. Perhaps now that we have set the standard for unilateral enforcement of the desires of the UN--without the consent of the UN to do so--Israel is just following us like the little, needy puppy it is. And we throw them a few extra table scraps for the effort.

    There's a good Israel. Drag back a few more dead Lebanese civilians and destroyed neighborhoods to please us. Who's a good boy? Who's a good boy?

    And don't call me anti-puppy, damn it.

    Why is it that we and they are good at "enforcing" UN resolutions when it involves others, but not so good at self-enforcement? Take these [jatonyc.org] or these [thenation.com]

    Posted by tjbehrens1 at 07/23/2006 @ 5:06pm

71. Posted by TJBEHRENS1 07/23/2006 @ 4:33pm: By bringing out the flamethrower to attack an annoying mosquito, Israel has now made the mosquito look to other insects like the victim rather than the parasite.

    Nicely put.

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/23/2006 @ 5:15pm

72. So much for knee-jerk science!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/23/2006 @ 6:11pm

    the only place where knee-jerk and science go together is inside hamster conservative think tanks

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 6:14pm

73. I will try to keep that in mind when if is -15 degrees here this winter as it was in 1976 when they said we were entering a new ice age!

    Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/23/2006 @ 6:28pm

    now what you just said

    was knee-jerk science

    Posted by Will C. at 07/23/2006 @ 7:34pm

74. BRUNOWE, probably everyone else in the world outside yourself has noticed that the entire country of Lebanon has been pretty much destroyed while nothing even remotely similar has been visited on nazi-like israel.

    You're veering off the deep end. That's most likely a result of spending too much time arguing for fantastically inaccurate portrayals of the career of the terror organization called israel.

    Well, again you've shown nothing but bile (and no actual substantiation) in comparing Israel to the Nazis. Finally, I've said time and time again that Israel had no business conducting the type of attack they did on Lebanon. But why should you let facts get in your way?

    Your source re Hariri also says this: "The other aspect to this, which may have September 11 implications, is how easily the Mossad operates in the world of what appears to be radical Islamist terrorist groups. " Are you going to start pushing the Mossad agents present at 9/11 theory as well?

    There's no reason not to prefer the findings of the Mehlis investigation which was done in cooperation with the Lebanese authorities. It correctly points out that Syrian intelligence had a long-standing presence in Lebanon and contacts within the Lebanese internal security organization. Likewise, Abdul Khaddam [news.bbc.co.uk], a former Syrian VP, said that Assad had threatened Hariri.

    Remember that there was an ongoing dispute between Hariri and Syria over the former's opposition to an extension of the term of the pro-Syrian Lebanese President Emile Lahoud.

    Oh, but I suppose that the UN and Khaddam are also in on the cover-up for Mossad.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 7:46pm

75. I would also point out that your statement that Israel had the most to gain from the Hariri assassination is debateable as well. The immediate effect was to remove an opponent of the pro-Syrian President. Your statement re the Israelis presupposes that the removal of the Syrian occupation force as a result of the blowback was a consequence not foreseen by the Syrians or predicted by the Israelis.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 7:58pm

76. Posted by GMD 07/23/2006 @ 10:47am

    G,

    Not only true in your country but in mine also. The PM and Opposition leader, whilst deploring the loss of innocent life in Lebanon, placed the blame squarely on Hezbollah. One can hardly blame the Jewish lobby for that. Your suspicion about Jewish control of your Government is an echo of the past German, Jew-phobia. Think you will find your Government's response is, in varying degrees, similar for most of Europe as well.

    It was the intial response of some in the Arab League also.

    Perhaps your little bunch of dissidents are the only ones to get it right. Then again they all may be ruled by their emotions rather than by their critical faculties.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/23/2006 @ 8:11pm

77. >> I'm beginning to think the 08' republican party theme will be very simple................ "Kill all Arabs".

    That would get my vote!

    Posted by davedix2006 at 07/23/2006 @ 8:16pm

78. You're veering off the deep end. That's most likely a result of spending too much time arguing for fantastically inaccurate portrayals of the career of the terror organization called israel.

    Well, again you've shown nothing but bile (and no actual substantiation) in comparing Israel to the Nazis. Finally, I've said time and time again that Israel had no business conducting the type of attack they did on Lebanon. But why should you let facts get in your way?

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 7:46pm

    I don't recall saying that the career of the terror organization called israel started a mere one week ago. You seem to consistently hear things that I didn't say. Or, do you have this problem with anyone who doesn't buy israel's colorful foundation myths?

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 8:35pm

79. Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/23/2006 @ 8:39pm

    Hey Rio. Good to see you're still around.

    As you recall, on a separate thread, I asked you a very simple question.

    What becomes of the Jews at the end of your Rapture fantasy?

    For some reason, you refuse to answer. I am quite surprised. Given that you are an evangelical minister, I would think you could crank this stuff out in your sleep. Your inability to respond makes it look like you are just too much of a bedwetting pansy to come out and say what you believe. Is that the problem?

    What becomes of the Jews at the end of your Rapture fantasy?

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/23/2006 @ 8:48pm

80. I don't recall saying that the career of the terror organization called israel started a mere one week ago. You seem to consistently hear things that I didn't say.

    Inaccurate, you mean by pointing out that the first Arab-Israeli war actually began in 1947 instead of buying into your delusion that it started when Israel declared independence?

    Further, my statement re Israel's current incursion is only one example of what you've conveniently chosen to ignore re my statements on Israel. And of course, you're statements re Israel's founding bring up the questions that you don't seem to have the candor to answer: Does your envision solution see the elimination of what you refer to as a "terrorist organization"?

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 8:50pm

81. Your source re Hariri also says this: "The other aspect to this, which may have September 11 implications, is how easily the Mossad operates in the world of what appears to be radical Islamist terrorist groups. " Are you going to start pushing the Mossad agents present at 9/11 theory as well?

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 7:46pm

    Are you referring to this "theory" [tinyurl.com]?

    This is similar to your declaration that Hezbollah was responsible for the bombings in Argentina. You're consistent in dismissing facts and treating speculation as facts. When the speculation suits your agenda.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 8:51pm

82. Inaccurate, you mean by pointing out that the first Arab-Israeli war actually began in 1947 instead of buying into your delusion that it started when Israel declared independence?

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 8:50pm

    I asked you yesterday to point out where I ever said that the "Arab-israeli war", as you put it, "started when Israel declared independence". You failed to do that. The reason you can't do that is because I never said that. So, yesterday you attribute to me a statement that I never made and today you promote it to the status of my "delusion".

    You're turning yourself into a running joke on this board to all except Rio Blotto and what looks like someone new who would make a reliable adherent to your israel fables, DAVEDIX2006.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 9:00pm

83. FRB

    This exactly the one. Nice of you to confirm that you are in Rese/Plunger land.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 9:01pm

84. re: Rio Blotto . . . Given that you are an evangelical minister . . .

    Posted by ORWELL2005 07/23/2006 @ 8:48pm

    Rio Blotto claims to be an evangelical minister, too? I remember a post of his, before I put him on the ignore list, that made it clear that he didn't know s*** about the bible.

    The other minister joke is lvliberty1/LOVE LIBERTY who says the Old Testament was written by Jesus. This is where the israeli "rapture" crowd comes from. Base ignorance.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 9:05pm

85. This is the Big One. The beginning of the END. Amen.

    Posted by monkeee at 07/23/2006 @ 9:19pm

86. FRB

    This exactly the one. Nice of you to confirm that you are in Rese/Plunger land.

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 9:01pm

    I guess that in your opinion FBI counterintelligence is in Rese/Plunger land with me given that the israelis "were dragged off to prison and transferred out of the custody of the FBI's Criminal Division and into the hands of their Foreign Counterintelligence Section – the bureau's anti-espionage squad." [tinyurl.com] And, The Sunday Herald is in Rese/Plunger land with us, right?

    Should I expect you to make another of your declarations soon that "this never happened and you don't have any facts to back it up"? At least not any that are as good as your declarations.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 9:19pm

87. israel founded it's "state" by slaughtering Arab children and throwing them down wells but it was the Arabs that "started" it. Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/19/2006 @ 4:31pm in the Rothenberg thread

    Since you use the founding is Israel in 1948 as an argument against my statement that the Arabs started it, you are implying that Israel did.

    You also wrote "It seems that you have an endless supply of dates for when the Arabs "initiated" hostilities." Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/20/2006 @ 04:44am in the Rothenberg thread

    So again, by your use of "initiated" in quotes, you are denying that the Arabs did initiated them.

    "Your endless accusations that the Arabs "initiated" hostilities is just a propaganda subterfuge.

    Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/20/2006 @ 1:23pm in the Rothenberg thread

    It is typical of your style to make insinuations like that without having the candor to state them outright. Not unlike your constant arguments about the injustice of the Zionist immigration but then taking umbrage when I say you want to Jews driven into the sea. Also not unlike your soft-peddling of the Holocaust with a line like "or example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews" which is clearly phrase to skip over the fact that the Jews were singled out for complete extermination.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 9:24pm

88. So tell me FRB, do you at least acknowledge that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were forgeries--or do you have a conspiracy fantasy about that as well.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 9:29pm

89. It is typical of your style to make insinuations like that without having the candor to state them outright. Not unlike your constant arguments about the injustice of the Zionist immigration but then taking umbrage when I say you want to Jews driven into the sea. Also not unlike your soft-peddling of the Holocaust with a line like "or example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews" which is clearly phrase to skip over the fact that the Jews were singled out for complete extermination.

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 9:24pm | ignore this person

    So tell me FRB, do you at least acknowledge that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were forgeries--or do you have a conspiracy fantasy about that as well.

    Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 9:29pm

    You are just plain full of shit and it's showing. Keep talking though, it's funny. Especially the bit about the Protocols. Very imaginative.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 9:33pm

90. There's a War even within all of your words. Can't you just see, that it's gone beyond the point of no return. There's squabbling in these posts, like there's squabbling in the Middle East. We're all fighting for prominence and the higher ground, but none of us are prepared to stretch ourselves over the puddle, to let sense and Love through. Squabble Squabble, these are the last Squabble's within our open ended wound, or our own making. We had IT. We grabbed it with our hands for ourselves. When we should have bent down and planted it for everybody to share. IT HAS DIED. Now it's out turn. End Of. xxx

    Posted by monkeee at 07/23/2006 @ 9:34pm

91. And, right now I have better things to do than talk to an escapee from some unknown state institution.

    Posted by fromredbird at 07/23/2006 @ 9:35pm

92. You are just plain full of shit and it's showing. Keep talking though, it's funny. Especially the bit about the Protocols. Very imaginative.

    Hey, you're the one who's all wrapped up in Zionist conspiracy theories.

    And, right now I have better things to do than talk to an escapee from some unknown state institution.

    Interesting that the response took place after I showed statements from you that you did deny that the Arabs initiated hostilities in '47, that you soft-peddled the Holocaust and that you're a member in good standing of 9/11 conspiracy land.

    Posted by brunowe at 07/23/2006 @ 9:38pm

93. Why don't the two of you just grab a pair of Guns and shoot each other ? You're both playing scrabble in quicksand.

    Posted by monkeee at 07/23/2006 @ 9:42pm

94. Posted by RIO BRAVO 07/23/2006 @ 9:34pm: You will notice leftwing extremist, marxists, leninists, agnostics, atheists, socialists, pacifists, and ego-centrists etc.

    etc.? You mean you got more pigeonholes to stuff people in?

    but would rather utilize the IGNORE button to preserve their pseudo-intellectual elitist fantacy!

    I'm not ignoring you, scared little preacher boy. And your delusional rantings hardly invade my "pseudo-intellectual elitist fantacy". I'm only asking you to state in plain English what it is that you believe.

    What becomes of the Jews at the end of your Rapture fantasy?

    Posted by orwell2005 at 07/23/2006 @ 9:53pm

95. Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 11:04am

    B,

    It was the "rare point of agreement" that caught my eye and not knowing all the points of disagreement thought I would bore you with my interest in a few issues. From my reading of your posts you don't seem to be a person who follows a particular party line.

    Opinions are just that and are open to challenge but I like to see some basic agreement about the "facts" otherwise it is a waste of time attempting to debate issues.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 07/23/2006 @ 9:53pm

96. You are a War.

    Posted by monkeee at 07/23/2006 @ 9:56pm

97. The disaster in Lebannon is the sole property of George Bush, like the disaster in Iraq. This is a horrible disaster for the world. Bill Clinton the Great protected us from regional conflagrations, George Bush and the Bush family have billions invested in the arms trade. These people are war-profiteers, you cant bomb civillians to send them a message.

    Mohammed Bin Laden sold his $400 million dollar stake in the Carlyle Group, but George Bush and his family, their relatives, still have their billions of dollars invested in the arms trade - and the oil business. Conservatives have attacked the environment with hatred, attacked students with hatred, attacked old people with hatred, attacked sick people who need the reasearch to find a cure - with hatred and cunning. They send their a-holes here to debate and ruse - to phony up false personalities - to use trickery - to use deceit - in hatred of the whole world.

    Look at what Conservatives have done.

    Posted by conshame at 07/23/2006 @ 10:19pm

98. The disaster in Lebannon is the 100% sole property of George Bush and the Conservatives who support him no matter what.

    Posted by conshame at 07/23/2006 @ 10:21pm

99. George Bush is a war profiteer, fanning the flames in Lebannon is to him just turning on the spigot - letting those billions of dollars wash in. Getting those high oil prices, getting those bombs to be dropped on people.

    Posted by conshame at 07/23/2006 @ 10:29pm

100. Posted by CONSHAME 07/23/2006 @ 10:21pm: George Bush and the Conservatives who support him no matter what.

     The supporters of George Bush are not Conservatives. They adhere to none of the classic principles of Conservative philosophy. They are advocates of nothing more than exultant adoration of their Leader and destructive hatred of whoever or whatever their Leader tells them is the Enemy. Better to call them BushBot Terrorees; or members of the Dear Leader Society; or advocates of an authoritarian corporatist state that is foreign to the principles and history of this nation.

     But, they are not conservative in any meaningful sense of the term.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/23/2006 @ 10:31pm

101. Perhaps your little bunch of dissidents are the only ones to get it right. Then again they all may be ruled by their emotions rather than by their critical faculties.

     Posted by LRJONES4 07/23/2006 @ 8:11pm

     And here I was prepared to invite you over to eat large tubs of ice cream, drink wine coolers by the gallon, and cry your eyes out while watching "Beaches"...again. But if you're going to be the tough, cerebral type, then I guess all of us silly-nillies will just have to enjoy a good sob without you.

     Meanie.

     Posted by tjbehrens1 at 07/23/2006 @ 11:27pm

102. but would rather utilize the IGNORE button to preserve their pseudo-intellectual elitist fantacy!

     Posted by ORWELL2005 07/23/2006 @ 9:53pm

     boy... rio sure has maasch pegged

     and he's a member of that leftwing extremist, marxists, leninists, agnostics, atheists, socialists, pacifists, and ego-centrists etc. group we affectionately call the ever expanding commie hamster fringe

     (with just a dash of evangelic thrown in for good measure)

     as a matter fact... i think maasch just got back from commie china

     Posted by Will C. at 07/24/2006 @ 12:50am

103. Posted by TJBEHRENS1 07/23/2006 @ 11:27pm

     TJ,

     Don't mind the odd sob myself at times but wouldn't want the bulls to catch me driving the car at those times. Think I see where the wine coolers fit in. But tears are tears and are probably still worth a few Brownie points in the greater scheme of things, no matter how they are induced. More importantly it'll probably impress the sheilas a bit. Hear they like blokes who cry.

     Posted by lrjones4 at 07/24/2006 @ 12:56am

104. lvl the great antichrist how can you again try to rationalize the word of god when your stand on supporting those in need over those in need of greed is so well founded.

     The conflict is unfortunately a no win situation their need to claim ownership of these lands in the name of god is the root of the evil here. Why do they continue to ignore what their prophets tried to teach that thing about loving thy brother thy fellow being.

     Posted by dycel8r at 07/24/2006 @ 02:06am

105. You are just plain full of shit and it's showing. Keep talking though, it's funny. Especially the bit about the Protocols. Very imaginative.

     Hey, you're the one who's all wrapped up in Zionist conspiracy theories.

     And, right now I have better things to do than talk to an escapee from some unknown state institution.

     Interesting that the response took place after I showed statements from you that you did deny that the Arabs initiated hostilities in '47, that you soft-peddled the Holocaust and that you're a member in good standing of 9/11 conspiracy land.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 9:38pm

     FRB: "For example, the nazis slaughtered Eastern European peoples, many of them Jews, but they DIDN'T then move German immigrant settlers into the homes and land of the victims."

     BRUNOWE: "you soft-peddled the Holocaust"

     Tell the nice men in the white coats. It's my bedtime now.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 02:27am

106. Bye Bye Words.......

     Posted by monkeee at 07/24/2006 @ 06:21am

107. It's my bedtime now.

     Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/24/2006 @ 02:27am | ignore this person

     Don't forget to check under your bed and in your closet for Mossad agents before you turn the lights out.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 06:35am

108. Duh....It's so obvious...Heck no this administration is not going to hurry to resolve this situation...Its the eyes off the eroding situation going on in Iraq...

     Posted by djmarch at 07/24/2006 @ 07:35am

109. Duh....It's so obvious...Heck no this administration is not going to hurry to resolve this situation...It takes the eyes off the eroding situation going on in Iraq...

     Posted by djmarch at 07/24/2006 @ 07:36am

110. Still playing the lying game about what others say? I have never stated that Jesus "wrote" the Old Testament.

     So keep lying and keep denying, those who love the darkness, remain there.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 07/24/2006 @ 01:55am

     it must be comforting to you that the archives don't go back far enough so we could pull the quote where you said that jesus wrote the old testament.

     that simple little reality leads itself to all kinds of denials

     Posted by Will C. at 07/24/2006 @ 08:03am

111. it's a shame too

     going back and pulling your wack job quotes used to be one of my favorite past times

     Posted by Will C. at 07/24/2006 @ 08:06am

112. Interesting, this....

     "So tell me FRB, do you at least acknowledge that the Protocols of the Elders of Zion were forgeries--or do you have a conspiracy fantasy about that as well."---Posted by BRUNOWE 07/23/2006 @ 9:29pm

     "You are just plain full of shit and it's showing. Keep talking though, it's funny. Especially the bit about the Protocols. Very imaginative."----Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/23/2006 @ 9:33pm | ignore this person

     You notice....FROMRED didn't answer the question. I wonder why?

     Posted by Mask at 07/24/2006 @ 09:05am

113. MASK

     Not surprising. He's also never answered questions about whether he believes Israel should continue to exist or, if the Israelis are Nazi-like, where the West Bank equivalents to Auschwitz are.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 09:58am

114. Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 09:58am | ignore this person

     I wonder if Ari Berman in his post "Israel Lobby in Action" was UNDERplaying guys like FROMRED when he said "Too many on the left are reflexively anti-Israel."

     He (FROMRED) seems to show a cowardly streak common to bloggers....whereby he makes THE most outrageous statements and claims, then when asked to back them up or even play them out to their LOGICAL conclusion (such as the obvious conclusion from his posts that he would tolerate, even support the extinction of the State of Israel)....he dodges or simply refuses to answer.

     Scary of all is the fact that we have an element of the Left (I don't think FRB is alone)...that is just as anti-Israel (perhaps even suspicious of Jews in general) that is as venomous as the Old anti-Semitic Right (and its descendents in Pat Buchananites)

     Posted by Mask at 07/24/2006 @ 10:43am

115. ORWELL/TJB

     Posted by TJBEHRENS1 07/23/2006 @ 4:33pm: By bringing out the flamethrower to attack an annoying mosquito, Israel has now made the mosquito look to other insects like the victim rather than the parasite.

     Nicely put.

     Posted by ORWELL2005 07/23/2006 @ 5:15pm | ignore this person

     So I assume this statement adequately sums up your positions on this.

     So since Hezbollah has only killed a few a Israelis, the Israelis should not overreact by killing all of Hezbollah??????

     Exactly how many Israelis need to die in order to justify a response that eliminates the threat?

     And the poor innocent Lebanese, who are unwillingly and unable to move against Hezbollah. No doubt this is where your sympathey lies, well, it is unfortuanate, but i guess the message is, if you tolerate terrorists operating in your area, their is a price to be paid.

     And the moral equvilancy argument is a horrible one to make in comparing Hezbollah and Israeli actions.

     Hezbollah is the aggressor here, they have obviously prepared south lebanon for a war with Israel as the latest devolpments have proven. They DELIBRATELY target civilian centers without regard to damage.

     Massive tunneling networks and bunkers were dug with one purpose in mind. I suppose Israel is to blame in some way for that. But TJB as the NRA says, the one who fires is usually to blame.

     The blame for all this suffering lies with Hezbollah, they should be pressured, they should be killed, they should be condemned, they have been planning this all long. The proof of their pre-planned aggression lies in tunnels, bunkers and fortifications they have been building all along.

     Posted by CPT at 07/24/2006 @ 10:52am

116. "whom He sent, Him you do not believe" I believe King George once quoted the same verse in 1777.

     Condoleeza Rice is being sent on a diplomatic mission - on a farce - to pretend she is doing something for peace.

     George Bush is a war profiteer, the Bush family has billions of dollars invested in the arms trade. The war in Lebannon is the sole property of George Bush. Listen to His Conservatives, defend the disaster, this thing George Bush cooked up in Lebannon is a disaster - even Tony Blair is not on board with it, this is a disaster.

     Posted by conshame at 07/24/2006 @ 10:53am

117. So since Hezbollah has only killed a few a Israelis, the Israelis should not overreact by killing all of Hezbollah??????

     Exactly how many Israelis need to die in order to justify a response that eliminates the threat?

     And the poor innocent Lebanese, who are unwillingly and unable to move against Hezbollah. No doubt this is where your sympathey lies, well, it is unfortuanate, but i guess the message is, if you tolerate terrorists operating in your area, their is a price to be paid.

     No, the Israelis shouldn't overreact by levelling S. Beirut (surely not every building is a Hezbollah site) or hitting the airport or the port of Tripoli (seeing as they already have a blockade in place).

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 11:04am

118. Many of the poor, innocent Lebanese were pissed at Hezbollah, initially, but now they are of course pissed at Israel and the United States. As was Syria's plan - Syria who was kicked out of Lebannon in a sense, by the Lebanese. Are the Lebanese now expected to want to be occupied by Syria again - yes. Why cant the fundamentalist minority fight amongst themselves in a contained area? George Bush is presiding over a disaster in the middle east, a far reaching disaster, a terrible disaster, what can be said - this is a disaster - defend it - but it is a disaster.

     Posted by conshame at 07/24/2006 @ 11:13am

119. You have the horrible situation with the Turks wanting to kill the Kurds - dont let them speak their language - just kill them. The Kurds were terrorists - but then the Americans came along and: Presto!

     In Iraq, oh we better not cut and run, because there might be a civil war if we cut and run, so we gotta stay and support the troops, support the troops, support the troops. Why wont the media report any of the good news.

     Now this, George Bushs latest disaster, where is Bill Clinton the Great? We have Condoleeza Rice going around on a farce, before we had tangible progress, now we have a farce. Here come the Conservatives to defend the harm they have done. Quoting Bible passages - and quoting the same dammn Bible passages King George quoted in 1777 in an unhinged Biblical rant.

     Posted by conshame at 07/24/2006 @ 11:19am

120. Still playing the lying game about what others say? I have never stated that Jesus "wrote" the Old Testament.

     So keep lying and keep denying, those who love the darkness, remain there.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 07/24/2006 @ 01:55am

     it must be comforting to you that the archives don't go back far enough so we could pull the quote where you said that jesus wrote the old testament.

     that simple little reality leads itself to all kinds of denials

     Posted by WILL C. 07/24/2006 @ 08:03am

     Good old LVLIBERTY1/LOVE LIBERTY. He backed up his assertion that Jesus wrote the old testament with his eccentric selections of scripture and now he says that I'm lying. Next he's going to say he never used the screen name LOVE LIBERTY? His singleminded ardor for israel to tear down the 38 acre al-Aqsa mosque and build a Jewish temple on the site must have caused him to forget some basics- like, "Thou shalt not lie". It isn't too hard to figure out why he's a most popular candidate for the ignore list.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:22am

121. If you put someone on ignore, they can mess with you, they can write stuff you cant see and cant respond to.

     Posted by conshame at 07/24/2006 @ 11:26am

122. CPT,

     As usual, you're as quick as Ariel Sharon these days. Man, the military has had 100% success with their job of zapping your mind of anything but their world. It's almost as if nothing but the military world exists for you. Hmmmmmmm. It's hard to imagine how much more of a loser you'd be if they didn't take your sorry ass into their ranks and give you what they call a brain and a function. God knows you'd be behind the desk of a Pep Boys or stocking the dairy section of A&P if they didn't show you the light…

     So if Hezbollah should be wiped out for abducting a few soldiers, why not bomb Bogotá since Colombian rebels abducted a trio of American soldiers a few years back, (they are still in captivity), while kidnapping and murdering dozens of others? Why not bomb México since narcos kill US citizens pretty regularly, even taking out police officers not only along the border, but well north as well? Your logic is so lame, CPT. But hey, I don't expect too much more from a grunt with no education whatsoever, that is, besides knowing how to cradle an M-16 and kill his fellow man after torturing him.

     What you don't here in the land of the beautiful, is that two days before Galid Shalit was abducted, two sons of a Hamas member were kidnapped. Moreover, Israeli Defense Forces clashed with Hezbollah on the Lebanese side of the border before the other abductions ocurred. Isreal goaded them, as it goads everyone, in order to elicit a response. They are the provocateurs, and they knew damn well what would happen by goading their neighboring enemies. http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/07/21/MNG2QK396D1.DTL

     I'd also note that the Mossad is widely believed to have taken part in the assassination of Hariri last year. Of course, Syria was blamed (they blame Syria and/or Iran for everything these days), and ended up leaving Lebanon. Good thing for Israel, as it paved the way for the invasion and accompanying atrocities now occurring on your televisions. Knowing how pathetic the Lebanese Army is, Israel has been able to pummel their neighbor with ease. Had Syria still been there, well, things would be quite different.

     You gotta love these false flag operations. I still like April Glaspie giving the green light to Saddam in 1990 to invade Kuwait, thus justifying the US noble bombardment of Iraq, killing a few hundred thousand people, before watching the Shia get slaughtered when they rose up only to find they didn't have any support from the Americans urging them to take down Saddam. So now how do we lure Syria into the fight? And don't give me any of that shit about them giving weapons to Hezbollah. Hell, 4 of every 10 dollars spent on arms in the world ends up in the US, and anyone but a moron knows that terrorists, guerillas, insurgents and all-around bad-asses love Uncle Sam's toys when it comes to playing war.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 11:26am

123. MASK

     Not surprising. He's also never answered questions about whether he believes Israel should continue to exist or, if the Israelis are Nazi-like, where the West Bank equivalents to Auschwitz are.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 09:58am

     BRUNOWE, if there were West Bank equivalents of Auschwitz would you be advocating a "centrist" position that they be reduced in size by about 1%? That would be more or less identical to your "centrist" position on occupied Palestine.

     MASK stays on my ignore list but you better take allies wherever you can find them, BRUNOWE. The "rapture time" nutcases especially appreciate your catapulting of the propaganda about israel's "rights". israel's brazenly declared and unpunished rights are the right to murder and steal land and homes, the right to impose child malnutrition, the right to employ collective punishment on a daily basis, the right to hold 9,000 political captives without the least squawk from the UN, etc., etc.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:37am

124. The United Terrorist States of America- making us all proud.

     An officer with the UN peacekeeping force says that the Israelis had told them they would not hinder cars traveling north on main roads. But the overwhelming evidence Sunday suggested that cars were being attacked regardless of their occupants and direction of travel. "They have been hitting civilian cars all over the place," says Peter Bouckart of Human Rights Watch, who had just returned to Beirut from Tyre. "I have been in many war zones, but this is one of the most dangerous places I have seen."

     http://tinyurl.com/jz9w7

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:39am

125. If you put someone on ignore, they can mess with you, they can write stuff you cant see and cant respond to.

     Posted by CONSHAME 07/24/2006 @ 11:26am

     MASK will soon die from heartbreak. When you pay attention to his insipid posts it's like oxygen for him.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:42am

126. BRUNOWE, if there were West Bank equivalents of Auschwitz would you be advocating a "centrist" position that they be reduced in size by about 1%? That would be more or less identical to your "centrist" position on occupied Palestine.

     Of course not, but thank you for admitting that your comparison of Israel to the Nazis is just so much bunk?

     The "rapture time" nutcases especially appreciate your catapulting of the propaganda about israel's "rights". israel's brazenly declared and unpunished rights are the right to murder and steal land and homes, the right to impose child malnutrition, the right to employ collective punishment on a daily basis, the right to hold 9,000 political captives without the least squawk from the UN, etc., etc.

     Actually, I never defended any of that. More of your usual delusions. I have said a couple of times that any solution must include Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank (incl. the settlement blocs) and abrogation of "security control" over the Jordan Valley. But again, why should you let facts get in your way?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 11:43am

127. LVLIBERTY1 is a different case. He's like a virus. He'll die from starvation. He needs healthy hosts to feed on.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:44am

128. Posted by CPT 07/24/2006 @ 10:52am: So since Hezbollah has only killed a few a Israelis, the Israelis should not overreact by killing all of Hezbollah??????

     They are not killing "all of Hezbollah", you moronic warmongering old fool. They are killing all of Lebanon.

     Get a grip, CPT. You yourself are not actually in any danger.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 11:48am

129. Posted by CPT 07/24/2006 @ 10:52am: Exactly how many Israelis need to die in order to justify a response that eliminates the threat?

     You think that the Israelis are eliminating the threat by carpet bombing Beirut? You are dumber than I thought.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 11:49am

130. Posted by CPT 07/24/2006 @ 10:52am: if you tolerate terrorists operating in your area, their is a price to be paid.

     So when Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, and terrorists operated in their area, Israel should have paid a price?

     Your theory seems to lead to Israel bombing itself. Which, given your lust for blood and all things military, you may well support as well.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 11:51am

131. The "rapture time" nutcases especially appreciate your catapulting of the propaganda about israel's "rights". israel's brazenly declared and unpunished rights are the right to murder and steal land and homes, the right to impose child malnutrition, the right to employ collective punishment on a daily basis, the right to hold 9,000 political captives without the least squawk from the UN, etc., etc.

     Actually, I never defended any of that. More of your usual delusions. I have said a couple of times that any solution must include Israeli withdrawal from the West Bank (incl. the settlement blocs) and abrogation of "security control" over the Jordan Valley. But again, why should you let facts get in your way?

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 11:43am

     Thanks for reiterating your 1% solution for occupied Palestine which offers nothing but a giant prison camp and ensures that the the israeli right to murder and steal land and homes, the right to impose child malnutrition, the right to employ collective punishment on a daily basis, the right to hold 9,000 political captives without the least squawk from the UN, etc., etc., will continue ad infinitum.

     No "centrist" Democrat or Republican would ever insist that israel offer that anyway so it's all bullshit. Since that's the obvious case what do you recommend the Palestinians do- lie down and die quietly? That's all israel wants.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 11:56am

132. CPT,

     Once again, CPT has proven that he has only half a brain and therefore, is extremely dangerous.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 11:58am

133. CHIMI

     You speaking of logic, now THAT is lame.

     So its all Israels fault? i am sure that is the case, after all thy have only been attack countless times through suicide bombings and nation-state invasions. And they are after all surrounded by countries that hate them.

     But like any good leftists, the moral equivalency argument is good enough for you, it is a false argument rooted in fantasy land.

     Posted by CPT at 07/24/2006 @ 12:00pm

134. Posted by CPT 07/24/2006 @ 10:52am: if you tolerate terrorists operating in your area, their is a price to be paid.

     So when Israel occupied Southern Lebanon, and terrorists operated in their area, Israel should have paid a price?

     Your theory seems to lead to Israel bombing itself. Which, given your lust for blood and all things military, you may well support as well.

     Posted by ORWELL2005 07/24/2006 @ 11:51am

     For the neo-fascist Bushalini followers there's always an exception for israeli terrorism. It wouldn't even be legal to call it by it's real name, if they had their way.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 12:00pm

135. Thanks for reiterating your 1% solution for occupied Palestine which offers nothing but a giant prison camp and ensures that the the israeli right to murder and steal land and homes, the right to impose child malnutrition, the right to employ collective punishment on a daily basis, the right to hold 9,000 political captives without the least squawk from the UN, etc., etc., will continue ad infinitum.

     The West Bank is NOT a 1% solution. With the settlement blocs gone the Israelis will have no justification for the roadblocks, check points and other things that have choked off their economy. Same as with the Jordan Valley. And how does removal of Israeli settlement ensure their right to steal homes? How does it ensure their right to offer collective punishment. Your statement is a complete non-sequitur.

     Also, you've been very reticent about what you consider your solution to be? Again, does it or does it not involve a continuation of the state of Israel?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 12:05pm

136. birdbrain, did you take another bump on the noggin or is someone else at the asylum writing under your name today...it just doesn't sound like you without a reference to nazis. come on, you have a standard of insanity to uphold, and you are leaving your fellow fruitcakes adrift and rudderless. step it up

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 12:09pm

137. Interesting piece [csis.org] by Anthony Cordesman of the CSIS on how the current Lebanon crisis is lose-lose for everyone

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 12:10pm

138. Posted by NK 07/23/2006 @ 10:56am: my purpose in writing has not been to bait

     Posted by NK 07/24/2006 @ 12:09am: come on, you have a standard of insanity to uphold, and you are leaving your fellow fruitcakes adrift and rudderless. step it up

     So, your purpose is not to bait.

     What is your purpose, NK?

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 12:18pm

139. that was then, this is now. what's it to you

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 12:19pm

140. MASK will soon die from heartbreak. When you pay attention to his insipid posts it's like oxygen for him.

     Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/24/2006 @ 11:42am | ignore this person

     Yeah, the fact that I am "semi-ignored" (hehe) by FROMRED or any other person who (A) wants Israel wiped off the map...and (B) won't admit it (thought HINTS very strongly) because they're too cowardly to come right out and say what they mean...

     is "breaking my heart".

     So I'll again ask those who FRB is NOT semi-ignoring to keep asking him....Does he favor the elimination of the State of Israel...Does he think the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion" is a fake?....and watch how he bobs and weaves around those questions.

     Posted by Mask at 07/24/2006 @ 12:23pm

141. CPT,

     when you're done watching Rambo II, and after you drink a Colt 45 out of a can and maybe smack your kids around a bit, maybe you can pull your empty head out of your ass and see just why there is so much hostility towards Israel over there. You know what? Forget that. Why don't you just go over there and fight alongside your Israeli masters? You don't know anything but good and evil, death and destruction, jails and punishment, hostility and aggression. Get your dumbass over there and stop wasting our time with your parroted squawkings from FOX news.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 12:23pm

142. actually, here's the difference: when i recently started reading the blogs here, i had the foolish notion that an honest exchange and dialogue might be possible, even among people holding very different views, and that it might be constructive...that people might actually learn something from one another. it did not take long for me to be disabused of that idea, and now i don't bother with this much, checking in less frequently only to see how much more senseless yet venomous these posts can be...

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 12:26pm

143. Posted by NK 07/24/2006 @ 12:19am: that was then, this is now

     That would be a good summary of whackjob ethics.

     what's it to you

     A 2 letter pronoun.

     What's it to you?

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 12:26pm

144. thank you, chimchinemi for your cheery validation

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 12:28pm

145. NK,

     You're surprised? What the fuck did you expect? Did you think that this blog would be any different than the pro-wrestling tendencies of political discourse in the US? There's very little courtesy anywhere these days when it comes to politics, but hey, when you take truth out of the equation, you can't expect too much. You live in a country of noble conquistadores and evildoers. You are either with "us" or "them". The guy on the other side of the aisle isn't an adversary, rather, he's an enemy. That's the world you magnificos have created up there, though you still like to use the word united in the name of your country. This blog is just a virtual corner of the battlefield, and here, like there, the casualties mount on a daily basis. You should at least take your ideals off of your shoulders for a bit and loosen up. God knows we don't need any more people taking themselves too seriously here. Make a statement and shoot someone down. You'll never engage most of the extremist nuts here, (and surely I'm one of the leftist species), nor will you ever land on common ground with them, so either get a sense of humor or go fly a kite. There is no such thing as rational debate in the US.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 12:43pm

146. CHIMICHENGA

     Don't get too smug, the language of political discourse in Colombia seems to take the form of a gun in many cases (the current civil war, La Violencia, etc.)

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 12:50pm

147. The West Bank is NOT a 1% solution. With the settlement blocs gone the Israelis will have no justification for the roadblocks, check points and other things that have choked off their economy. Same as with the Jordan Valley. And how does removal of Israeli settlement ensure their right to steal homes? How does it ensure their right to offer collective punishment. Your statement is a complete non-sequitur.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 12:05am

     Oh, I forgot- your baseline for discussion is the propagandistic fantasy that israel can't be accused of murdering Palestinians and stealing their land and homes. Because the israelis have a "legal" right to murder and steal land and homes.

     There isn't any collective punishment in Gaza, is there? israel "withdrew", remember? There isn't any child malnutrition in Gaza, is there? Half the top echelon of the Palestinian government hasn't been "arrested" for- well, being Palestinian, have they? israel "withdrew", remember? israel isn't rocketing civilians in Gaza and walking all over it like it's a doormat, are they? israel "withdrew", remember?

     All you're proposing for the Palestinians is a giant prison camp. And there is yet to be seen a Democrat or Republican who would actually ever consider insisting that israel offer your 1% solution, anyway. It's all bullshit.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 12:55pm

148. birdbrain, did you take another bump on the noggin or is someone else at the asylum writing under your name today...it just doesn't sound like you without a reference to nazis. come on, you have a standard of insanity to uphold, and you are leaving your fellow fruitcakes adrift and rudderless. step it up

     Posted by NK 07/24/2006 @ 12:09am

     Don't leave, NK- BRUNOWE needs asshole zionazis like you around to make him a "centrist".

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 12:59pm

149. Oh, I forgot- your baseline for discussion is the propagandistic fantasy that israel can't be accused of murdering Palestinians and stealing their land and homes. Because the israelis have a "legal" right to murder and steal land and homes.

     There isn't any collective punishment in Gaza, is there? israel "withdrew", remember? There isn't any child malnutrition in Gaza, is there? Half the top echelon of the Palestinian government hasn't been "arrested" for- well, being Palestinian, have they? israel "withdrew", remember? israel isn't rocketing civilians in Gaza and walking all over it like it's a doormat, are they? israel "withdrew", remember?

     The fact that Palestinians were firing rockets from Gaza and grabbed an Israeli solider probably had a lot to do with the Israeli overreaction, but that doesn't count in your book, does it?

     I think the decision to cut-off money to the Hamas govt. was dubious at best, but it wasn't helped by the fact that Hamas still envisions a solution that would see Israel expunged.

     And again, does your optimal solution involve a continuation of the state of Israel?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:00pm

150. FRB

     Until you come up with what you would recommend as a resolution, you are really just a running joke here.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:01pm

151. BRUNOWE,

     I agree, as some of the most violent people on the planet reside here, but that's to be expected, right? In reality, I can assure you that the craziness associated with this country is way over-exaggerated, but I'm not complaining, as it keeps foreigners away, thus making my life a lot more productive and lucrative. In reality, Guatemala and El Salvador are way more dangerous than Colombia in my experience.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 1:02pm

152. that's all fine, chimi, as long as people don't make up crap, distort facts and basically just spew bile. as for humor, i haven't seen any unless you are including such extraordinary wit as "a 2 letter pronoun."

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 1:03pm

153. CHIMI

     In reality, Guatemala and El Salvador are way more dangerous than Colombia in my experience.

     Agreed, and the US had a lot to do with that. The Maras are an El Salvador gang that learned their "trade" in LA while refugees from El Salvador. The culture of impunity in Guatemala had much to do with a tradition of violence starting with the 1954(?) coup and continuing with connections with the likes of Ephraim Rios Montt.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:08pm

154. birdbrain -- it took you THAT long to come up with zionazis? that's sad. yesterday, zionists simply equated to nazis, and it took a full 24 hours to have them morph. go back to the meds and let's see where this goes tomorrow; maybe something like fasczionazis. can't use that one now.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 1:10pm

155. The fact that Palestinians were firing rockets from Gaza and grabbed an Israeli solider probably had a lot to do with the Israeli overreaction, but that doesn't count in your book, does it?

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:00pm

     The israeli overreaction started alamost 60 years ago but I should try to remember that you like to always start the historical stopwatch at highly selective points in the special case of israel.

     For example, israel's 9,000 political prisoners, many of them women and children held for years, in some cases decades, don't count for anything under your rules of discussion, do they?

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:11pm

156. The israeli overreaction started alamost 60 years ago but I should try to remember that you like to always start the historical stopwatch at highly selective points in the special case of israel.

     For example, israel's 9,000 political prisoners, many of them women and children held for years, in some cases decades, don't count for anything under your rules of discussion, do they?

     The stopwatch doesn't stop selectively, I just don't agree with your viewpoint that the state of Israel is fundamentally illegitimate. And Israeli abuses certainly do count. I don't defend anyone being held without charge or trial. On the other hand, I doubt that Qassam rockets are going to free them.

     And again I ask you, what are the contours of your optimal resolution?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:17pm

157. forgive me brunowe, but chimi suggests humor, and "contours of your optimal resolution" seems like such a ripe invitation for a truly advanced jokemeister like madame orwell

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 1:21pm

158. BRUNOWE,

     Right on, you know your history. I actually lived in Guate when Rios Montt was running for re-election in 2003. Even though everyone knew of his scorched earth policy and blatant racism towards the indigenous, they (the Mayas) were willing to overlook this when Rios Montt gave them cinderblocks and cement to build houses, or tires for their busses. They claimed it was more than anyone else had ever given them, so he deserved their vote, despite having wiped out tens of thousands of their brothers and sisters 20 years earlier.

     As far as Mara Salvatrucha, as well as 13 and 18, (named for streets in Los Angeles), yeah, I hear they're real bad news now in the US. I've never seen such an utter disrespect for life as I did when reading about and sometimes even seeing them in action. They'll not only kill you, but they'll cut off your ears, nose, johnson, head, you name it, then leave what's left of you for the world to see. I know a lot of gringos like to think they're bad-ass, (you know, the middleclass white kids with their pants falling down, big chains and rap music), but I'll tell you, I've seen 13 and 14 year-old kids do things that would make 50 cent look like Will Smith.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 1:22pm

159. FRB

     Until you come up with what you would recommend as a resolution, you are really just a running joke here.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:01pm

     You certainly aren't a running joke, are you BRUNOWE? You recommend the "extra-generous offer" prison camp for the Palestinians (1% more) which is way too much to offer as far as any israeli government or Democrat or Republican is concerned. The most that they would ever consider is the plain old "generous offer" [tinyurl.com] prison camp. You failed to mention that your "extra-generous offer" prison camp is all that Arafat asked for and for which President Clinton assigned him the blame for the "failure" of "negotiations".

     Does that mean the Palestinians should lie down and die quietly? You didn't answer that question, did you?

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:25pm

160. birdbrain -- it took you THAT long to come up with zionazis? that's sad. yesterday, zionists simply equated to nazis, and it took a full 24 hours to have them morph. go back to the meds and let's see where this goes tomorrow; maybe something like fasczionazis. can't use that one now.

     Posted by NK 07/24/2006 @ 1:10pm

     NK, why don't you stick your pinhead up your zionist ass? There should be more than enough lebensraum there.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:29pm

161. Here's a link highlighting some of the quotes by Israel that only prove they see Arabs and Muslims as equals and brothers.

     http://www.monabaker.com/quotes.htm

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 1:33pm

162. That extra "1%" that you disparage is rather key as it involves a contiguous Palestianian state on the West Bank with control over its border with Jordan rather than three isolated cantons.

     Again, FRB, what do YOU recommend? You've never answered THAT question.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:34pm

163. The stopwatch doesn't stop selectively, I just don't agree with your viewpoint that the state of Israel is fundamentally illegitimate.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:17pm

     I'm well acquainted with your opinion that if the US and it's dog, the UN, give israel permission to murder Palestinians and steal their land and homes then it's A-OK as far as you're concerned.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:38pm

164. "Israeli propaganda has largely relinquished the claim that the Palestinian exodus of 1948 was 'self-inspired'. Official circles implicitly concede that the Arab population fled as a result of Israeli action - whether directly, as in the case of Lydda and Ramleh, or indirectly, due to the panic that and similar actions (the Deir Yassin massacre) inspired in Arab population centers throughout Palestine. However, even though the historical record has been grudgingly set straight, the Israeli establishment still refused to accept moral or political responsibility for the refugee problem, it or its predecessors actively created." Peretz Kidron, quoted in "Blaming the Victims"

     "The BBC (British Broadcasting Corporation) monitored all Middle Eastern broadcasts throughout 1948. The records, and companion ones by a United States monitoring unit, can be seen at the British Museum. There was not a single order or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine, from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is a repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." Erskine Childers, British researcher, quoted in Sami Hadawi, "Bitter Harvest"

     "That Ben Gurion's ultimate aim was to evacuate as much of the Arab population as possible from the Jewish state can hardly be doubted, if only from the variety of means he employed to achieve his purpose... most decisively, the destruction of whole villages and the eviction of their inhabitants... even if they had not participated in the war and had stayed in Israel hoping to live in peace and equality, as promised in the Declaration of Independence." Israeli author, Simha Flapan "The Birth of Israel"

     The deliberate destruction of Arab villages to prevent return of Palestinians:

     "During May 1948, ideas about how to consolidate and give permanence to the Palestinian exile began to crystallize, and the destruction of villages was immediately perceived as a primary means of achieving this aim... Even earlier, on 10 April, Haganah units took Abu Shusha... The village was destroyed that night... Khulda was leveled by Jewish bulldozers on 20 April... Abu Zureiq was completely demolished... Al Mansi and An Naghnaghiya, to the southeast, were also leveled... By mid-1949, the majority of the 350 depopulated Arab villages were either completely or partly in ruins and uninhabitable...

     ...Ben Gurion clearly wanted as few Arabs as possible to remain in the Jewish state. He hoped to see them flee. He said as much to his colleagues and aides in meetings in August, September and October 1948. But no general expulsion policy was ever enunciated and Ben Gurion always refrained from issuing clear or written expulsion orders; he preferred that his Generals 'understand' what he wanted done. He wished to avoid going down in history as the 'great expeller' and he did not want the Israeli government to be implicated in a morally questionable policy... But while there was no 'expulsion policy', the July and October 1948 offensives were characterized by far more expulsions and, indeed, brutality towards Arab civilians than the first half of the war." Benny Morris "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949"

     "The first UN General Assembly resolution, Number 194, affirming the right of Palestinians to return to their homes and property, was passed on December 11, 1948. It has been repassed no less than twenty-eight times since that first date. Whereas the moral and political right of a person to return to his place of uninterrupted residence is acknowledged everywhere, Israel has negated the possibility of return, and systematically and juridically made it impossible, on any grounds whatever, for the Arab Palestinian to return, be compensated for his property, or live in Israel as a citizen equal before the law with a Jewish Israeli." Edward Said "The Question of Palestine"

     "The fact that the Arabs fled in terror, because of real fear of a repetition of the 1948 Zionist massacres, is no reason for denying them their homes, fields and livelihoods. Civilians caught in an area of military activity generally panic. But they have always been able to return to their homes when the danger subsides. Military conquest does not abolish private rights to property; nor does it entitle the victor to confiscate the homes, property and personal belongings of the noncombatant civilian population. The seizure of Arab property by the Israelis was an outrage." Sami Hadawi "Bitter Harvest"

     What was the fate of the Palestinians who had now become refugees?

     "The winter of 1949, the first winter of exile for more than seven hundred fifty thousand Palestinians, was cold and hard. Families huddled in caves, abandoned huts, or makeshift tents. Many of the starving were only miles away from their own vegetable gardens and orchards in occupied Palestine, the new state of Israel. At the end of 1949 the United Nations finally acted, it set up the United Nations Relief and Works Administration (UNRWA) to take over sixty refugee camps from voluntary agencies. It managed to keep people alive, but only barely." "Our Roots Are Still Alive" by The Peoples Press Palestine Book Project.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:40pm

165. I'm well acquainted with your opinion that if the US and it's dog, the UN, give israel permission to murder Palestinians and steal their land and homes then it's A-OK as far as you're concerned.

     Oh yeah, the UN is the lackey of the US. That's why they gave us permission to invade Iraq in the first place. Oh wait! They didn't.

     give israel permission to murder Palestinians and steal their land and homes then it's A-OK

     Actually the partition plan never authorized force, it was the Arabs who started that in November 1947. Another fact you overlook.

     And again, what does YOUR solution entail?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 1:41pm

166. And again, what does YOUR solution entail?

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:41pm | ignore this person

     BRUNO, you KNOW what FROMRED's solution entails...."final" as it might be.

     Posted by Mask at 07/24/2006 @ 1:51pm

167. chimi...you must have overlooked the section on olmert, though he got his reply from hamas, hezbollah and the others so well defended here:

     "In the near future, we will aspire to set the permanent borders of the State of Israel, as a Jewish state with a permanent Jewish majority, and as a democratic state. We will act to achieve this through negotiations and agreement with our Palestinian neighbors. This is our wish and also our prayer. No alternative is better than a peace agreement; no peace is more stable than one based on agreement.

     An agreement can be based only on negotiation, conducted on the basis of mutual recognition, compliance with past signed agreements, the principles of the Roadmap, and, of course, cessation of violence and disarming of the terrorist organizations.

     I appeal this evening to the head of the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas, in the simplest and most direct way in which people talk to each other:

     For thousands of years we have borne the dream of the whole Land of Israel in our hearts. This land, with its historic borders, will remain our heart's desire forever. We will never give up our longing for the places that were the cradle of civilization, which hold our most precious memories as a people.

     However, in recognition of reality and with comprehension of the circumstances, we are prepared to compromise, to give up parts of the beloved Land of Israel, where the best of our sons and fighters lie buried; to carry out a very painful evacuation of the Jews living there - in order to create the conditions which will enable you to fulfill your dream and to live alongside us, in your own state, in peace and tranquility.

     I expect to hear a similar announcement from the Palestinian Authority.

     The time has come for the Palestinian public and leadership to adjust their dreams to the reality of the existence of the State of Israel, as a Jewish state, at their side. The time has come for the Palestinians to resign themselves, as we have, to realizing only a part of their dreams; to stop terrorism and hatred; to create democratic, decent lives of their own, and to look towards a future of rapprochement, compromise and peace with us.

     We are ready for this. We long for this.

     I saying this here and now out of a belief in the enormous power of the State of Israel and the limitless courage of its soldiers, its military leaders and its security forces to strike every foe and to defeat every terrorist. From this sense of power, we must act with all our might to create hope for a different life for our younger generation and our Palestinian neighbors."

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 1:54pm

168. That extra "1%" that you disparage is rather key as it involves a contiguous Palestianian state on the West Bank with control over its border with Jordan rather than three isolated cantons.

     Again, FRB, what do YOU recommend? You've never answered THAT question.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:34pm

     It isn't "key" if you know damn well that it's never going to be offered. You don't elaborate on why your "solution" is so brilliant when it's, essentially, all that Yasser Arafat ever asked for at the July 2000 Camp David Summit. For which Clinton assigned to Arafat the blame for the "failure of negotiations".

     And I'm sure the Palestinians can formulate their own response to that without any help from me.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 1:57pm

169. birdbrain, finally you have stumbled into the truth: hamas' stated desire to eliminate israel, and its decision not to begin building and economic development in gaza upon israel's departure but instead to rocket israeli civilians is something they know how to do without your help, though they probably appreciate your blind support.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 2:04pm

170. I'm well acquainted with your opinion that if the US and it's dog, the UN, give israel permission to murder Palestinians and steal their land and homes then it's A-OK as far as you're concerned.

     Oh yeah, the UN is the lackey of the US. That's why they gave us permission to invade Iraq in the first place. Oh wait! They didn't.

     give israel permission to murder Palestinians and steal their land and homes then it's A-OK

     Actually the partition plan never authorized force, it was the Arabs who started that in November 1947. Another fact you overlook.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 1:41pm

     The UN has done about as much about the US invasion of Iraq as it has about israeli use of force and 60 years of violations of the Geneva Conventions. Yes, as a matter of fact the UN is the lackey of the US. No one would ever have guessed that, would they have?

     That's right- some British asshole in a london hotel room in 1917 "gave Palestine" to a European Jew in a written promise on a piece of hotel stationery and it was "the Arabs" who "started it". You're no running joke, not by any means.

     The irony contained in a piece of paper Draft copy of the Balfour Declaration is highlight of New York auction

     The Daily Star Lebanon | Ramsay Short Beirut

     BEIRUT: It is just a scrap of paper with some roughly scribbled words on it, written 89 years ago in a London hotel. But that scrap of paper, or lot number 217, to be sold at a Sotheby's auction of Fine Books and Manuscripts in New York on June 16, holds the founding remarks of what would become the future Jewish state of Israel.

     The note reads: "H[is] M[ajesty's] G[overnment] accepts the principle that Palestine should be reconstituted as the Nat[iona]l Home of the J[ewish] P[eople]. HMG will use its best efforts to secure the achievement of this object, and will discuss the necessary methods and means with the Z[ionist] O[rganization]."

     That's right. What is going under the hammer in five days time is a draft written on hotel stationery of the Balfour Declaration, the British government's statement that agreed in principle to the creation of a Jewish homeland in Palestine.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 2:09pm

171. NK,

     Yeah, it's all there as you cut and paste it. Plain and simple. Just as extraordinary rendition doesn't mean torture, Operation Just cause was more than just to the 3.000 Panamanians it claimed in order to extract one rowdy leader, no fly zones didn't apply to Turks killing Kurds, or that the biggest warmonger and producer of weapons (your country) wants nothing but peace in the world. Yeah, language hides nothing. God help us if you have a copy of the Bible in your house, freaking prokaryote.

     NK, I think you're missing summer school, no?

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 2:11pm

172. birdbrain, finally you have stumbled into the truth: hamas' stated desire to eliminate israel, and its decision not to begin building and economic development in gaza upon israel's departure but instead to rocket israeli civilians is something they know how to do without your help, though they probably appreciate your blind support.

     Posted by NK 07/24/2006 @ 2:04pm

     Hey, NK, I have a better idea- why don't you stick your pinhead up your zionist asshole when you get to the ignore list. Which will be in about 20 seconds.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 2:11pm

173. CHIMICHENGA, you're posted quotes are an illustration of the complete story [tinyurl.com] , the one that BRUNOWE wants to edit with a chainsaw.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 2:17pm

174. hold on, birdbrain, not everyone has your experience in juggling so many assholes at once...now you are hung up again with a british one, though you never answered why this animates you so much more than all the other mandates and the countries created, managed, molded and otherwise screwed up in the first quarter of the last century that have led to so much other violence and creation of refugees. could it be that many of them kicked out their jews, who fled to israel (making its poplution very much of a middle east flavor, notwithstanding the inconvenience of that fact for you), and that without jews to hate they just aren't of interest to you? but even before that immigration, what of the fact that jews have constituted the majority of jerusalem's population for more than 150 years? you sure talk a lot about zionism without understanding much about it.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 2:19pm

175. "[Israel will] create in the course of the next 10 or 20 years conditions which would attract natural and voluntary migration of the refugees from the Gaza Strip and the west Bank to Jordan. To achieve this we have to come to agreement with King Hussein and not with Yasser Arafat."

     -- Yitzhak Rabin (a "Prince of Peace" by Clinton's standards), explaining his method of ethnically cleansing the occupied land without stirring a world outcry. (Quoted in David Shipler in the New York Times, 04/04/1983 citing Meir Cohen's remarks to the Knesset's foreign affairs and defense committee on March 16.)

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 2:20pm

176. why, chimchimeni, i expected more from the good humor man than an orwellian offering. and birdbrain, you really know how to hurt my feelings. you are truly at the top of your game.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 2:25pm

177. NK,

     Looks like you're getting the hang of it.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 2:38pm

178. bkool66 is precisely the kind of lickspittle pseudo lefty that tries to conceal his anti-semitism behind terminally-fatigued extreme left wing rhetoric. Israel, born of thousands of years of oppression which culminated in being the principal victims of history's greatest act of evil, today, just as in 1949, simply wants to be left in peace, but unlike the jews in the boxcars enroute to Auschwitz, has decided that this time the Himmlers and bin ladens and bkools are going to have to put up with a little inconvenience. Even bkool must have the sense to know who's making the ultimate money from arms sales here, and that he is not so indirectly supporting, by his comments and twisted views. bkool would probably have been arguing with the passengers on the 911 hijacked planes-"hey we have to understand these good loving murderers who are about to kill us-its really Israel's fault, so lets die singing the hezbollah national anthem." bkool probably didn't even see Michael Moore's film about it. He heard they so rarely show cartoons with feature films anymore, so why bother going?

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 2:42pm

179. thanks, chim, summer school is cool

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 2:45pm

180. I posted my last entry without having read most of the last several pages of comments. Sorry bkool for singling you out-its obvious you have a few friends here. So does Al Queada.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 2:47pm

181. It isn't "key" if you know damn well that it's never going to be offered.

     I don't know anything of the kind. The current political environment isn't conducive to it that environment isn't set in stone.

     And I'm sure the Palestinians can formulate their own response to that without any help from me.

     And that's a cop-out. You simply refuse to admit that what you envision is a complete reversal of the Jewish immigration of the 20th century (back into the sea) and the elimination of the state of Israel. But every statement you make claiming the illegitimacy of both betrays your actual sentiments.

     Yes, as a matter of fact the UN is the lackey of the US. No one would ever have guessed that, would they have?

     Sorry, but being ineffective and being a lackey are two entirely different things. Was the UN being a US lackey when it originally passed the "Zionism is Racism" Gen. Assembly statement?

     That's right- some British asshole in a london hotel room in 1917 "gave Palestine" to a European Jew in a written promise on a piece of hotel stationery and it was "the Arabs" who "started it". You're no running joke, not by any means.

     Yes, again the war started in 1947. But I'm sure you also applaud other acts such as the mob violence against Jewish settlers in 1920 in Jerusalem, in 1921 in Jaffa, in 1929 in Hebron and, of course, the Uprising of 1936. The Jews' offence? Immigrating and buying land. The Palestinians "started" these as well.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 2:51pm

182. ED TRU LIB,

     So anyone who objects to Israel and their collective punishment of Arabs and Muslims over there is antisemetic, huh? Just like you're a traitor for not supporting Bush, right? Sounds like the language of a fascist to me.

     For all the defenders of Israel, check out this report by your favorite FOX news shortly after 9-11. I wonder why the links to these FOX reports are becoming harder and harder to find...

     http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article7544.htm

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 2:54pm

183. That's right- some British asshole in a london hotel room in 1917 "gave Palestine" to a European Jew in a written promise on a piece of hotel stationery and it was "the Arabs" who "started it". You're no running joke, not by any means.

     Yes, again the war started in 1947. But I'm sure you also applaud other acts such as the mob violence against Jewish settlers in 1920 in Jerusalem, in 1921 in Jaffa, in 1929 in Hebron and, of course, the Uprising of 1936. The Jews' offence? Immigrating and buying land. The Palestinians "started" these as well.

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 2:51pm

     Are you an advocate for unlimited immigration to the US by anyone who wants to come? With the permission "given" by someone who never lived in the US? Answer that question.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:03pm

184. Chimichenga-I think Bush is far more likely to be considered a traitor by history than even Tokyo Rose or Karl Rove, but ALL you and people like you do is "object" to israel, with never a word about making it safe within its original borders. Even Bush can't be wrong all the time. Btw-i have Fox "news" deleted on my tv so i don't even have to suffer through surfing through it. On the other hand, true American liberals, particularly those capable of ACTUALLY winning elections, may criticize much of Israel's actions, and even condemn some, but ALWAYS recognize the simple RIGHTNESS (no pun intended) of Israel's secure, PERMANENT existence--in peace.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 3:04pm

185. Are you an advocate for unlimited immigration to the US by anyone who wants to come? With the permission "given" by someone who never lived in the US? Answer that question.

     As I've answered before, the US is a sovereign country. The last country to rule that area was the Ottoman Empire. When that collapsed the League of Nations established a Mandate over what was then stateless territory.

     Again, why not just admit that you'd like to see Israel eliminated and much, if not all, of the Jewish population driven out?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 3:06pm

186. Yes, as a matter of fact the UN is the lackey of the US. No one would ever have guessed that, would they have?

     Sorry, but being ineffective and being a lackey are two entirely different things. Was the UN being a US lackey when it originally passed the "Zionism is Racism" Gen. Assembly statement?

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 2:51pm

     The UN General Assembly has zero power to do anything. You, of course, knew that didn't you- but still chose to use that as some sort of halfassed rhetorical point that you pretend is a brilliant rebuttal?

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:07pm

187. "history's greatest act of evil" posted by ED_TRU_LIB

     Don't mean to nickpick, but as a person of African descent I can think of a period in history that birthed history's true greatest act(s) of evil. Does saying this make me anti-semitic as well?

     Posted by k330k at 07/24/2006 @ 3:07pm

188. To Rio Bravo. The deaths of the Marines in the barracks was a tragedy. But it is necessary to have a bit of background to this awful event. Not long before the attack began, the US was lobbing what President Reagan described as "Volkswagen size" shells into the hills of Lebanon, killing many Lebanese. The attack on the Marine barracks came in response to that shelling. There are also another set of US service members whose deaths have been buried by the US government for 39 years. These are the 34 service members who died when Israel deliberately attacked their ship, the USS Liberty, in interntional waters off the coast of Lebanon during the Six Day War. On a clear day with the American flag in full view, Israeli jets strafed the ship over and over again and came back to attack survivors in their lifeboats. The ship, a largely unarmed intelligence vessel, was unable to retaliate against the aggression by Israel. It has been thought that by attacking the ship and killling the surviving eyewitnesses, the US would place the blame on Egypt. Israel later "apologized" for the attack saying that they thought the ship was Egyptian. This was just another Israeli lie as photos of the Liberty and Egyptian ships show little or no resemblance to each other. Meanwhile the US government told the survivors not to talk and buried the event. Since then Israel has known that whatever it does will not be criticized by any US administration or by the largely AIPAC controlled Congress. It is past time that the US ended its one-sided support for Israel, a support that may very well end to the anihilation of much of the world but this will not happen as long as AIPAC controls our Congress.

     Posted by janba at 07/24/2006 @ 3:11pm

189. ok, k, you win the "greatest" award...now, say what you want to say and we can determine if you are an anti-semite or not

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 3:13pm

190. The UN General Assembly has zero power to do anything. You, of course, knew that didn't you- but still chose to use that as some sort of halfassed rhetorical point that you pretend is a brilliant rebuttal?

     But the fact that it passed it shows that you simply can't say the UN is a lackey of the US. If it didn't at least have significant propaganda value, why did Israel insist on its rescinding prior to participation in the Madrid conference. And if it was so offensive to Israel in the first place, how could the US not prevent its UN "lackey" from passing it?

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 3:15pm

191. I posted my last entry without having read most of the last several pages of comments. Sorry bkool for singling you out-its obvious you have a few friends here. So does Al Queada.

     Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 2:47pm

     There's no one named bkool posting here. You zionists aren't satisfied with just inventing false words and affinities to attribute to others. You're compelled to also invent false opponents.

     TRU_LIB as in liberalism for zionists, national extermination for Palestinians?

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:15pm

192. Thanks, NK. Okay as far as I'm concerned Israel has every right to defend itself when attacked. My problem is the kowtowing that the US does in regards to Israel. They have one of the strongest militaries in the world. Why do they need the continued monetary support of the U.S? It's obvious they can take care of themselves. I just wish we paid just as much attention to other, more needy countries as we do to Israel. It's like they can do no wrong. And we all know noone country is perfect. I don't know, maybe if black folks had as strong a lobby as Jewish folk, we'd be , figuratively, in bed with Africa. Alot of black folks I know are tired of hearing about Israel all the time. Can't they take care of themselves?

     Posted by k330k at 07/24/2006 @ 3:22pm

193. Are you an advocate for unlimited immigration to the US by anyone who wants to come? With the permission "given" by someone who never lived in the US? Answer that question.

     As I've answered before, the US is a sovereign country. The last country to rule that area was the Ottoman Empire. When that collapsed the League of Nations established a Mandate over what was then stateless territory.

     Oh, I get it. Thanks for that brilliant clarification. That gave Jews from Europe the moral right to murder Palestinians and steal their homes and land. It also follows, from your reasoning, that since Iraq was "stateless" for two years (and still is in reality) we Americans (the chosen people) have the "right" to murder and drive the Iraqis out of Iraq and take their oil.

     Again, why not just admit that you'd like to see Israel eliminated and much, if not all, of the Jewish population driven out?

     Posted by BRUNOWE 07/24/2006 @ 3:06pm

     Much, if not all, of the Palestinian population has been driven out of Palestine already and more is planned so it seems that you have a questionable choice of victims to sympathize with. That's what I call a running joke. Your behavior has a strong similarity to someone who was sympathizing with the "misunderstood" Germans in 1944.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:25pm

194. Fromcommiebird-o i mean fromredbird-just trying to keep it a little shorter by condensing b_kool-66's name-will try not to offend your tender sensibilities from now on. Did it hurt you as much as, for example, a lunatic "palestinian" trained from birth in hatred and violence by his Iranian arms dealer "idealist" handlers, blowing up a schoolbus filled with Israeli (including muslim) children? I bet it didn't smart QUITE as much as the splat people felt jumping from the world trade center.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 3:27pm

195. Oh, I get it. Thanks for that brilliant clarification. That gave Jews from Europe the moral right to murder Palestinians and steal their homes and land. It also follows, from your reasoning, that since Iraq was "stateless" for two years (and still is in reality) we Americans (the chosen people) have the "right" to murder and drive the Iraqis out of Iraq and take their oil.

     That's a typically ridiculous comparison. First, Iraq never ceased to be a country--although it has been an occupied one for the last few years--so your description of it as "stateless" has no basis in reality.

     That gave Jews from Europe the moral right to murder Palestinians and steal their homes and land.

     No, it did give them the right to immigrate and buy land. The murdering was started by elements of the Palestinians.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 3:29pm

196. Fromcommiebird-o i mean fromredbird-just trying to keep it a little shorter by condensing b_kool-66's name-will try not to offend your tender sensibilities from now on. Did it hurt you as much as, for example, a lunatic "palestinian" trained from birth in hatred and violence by his Iranian arms dealer "idealist" handlers, blowing up a schoolbus filled with Israeli (including muslim) children? I bet it didn't smart QUITE as much as the splat people felt jumping from the world trade center.

     Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 3:27pm

     I have a good idea for you, too. Why don't you stick your pinhead up NK's zionist ass as soon as you get to the ignore list in 20 seconds?

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:30pm

197. BRUNOWE, you are full of zionist bullshit. That's all for today. Thanks for your self-revealing contributions.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 3:32pm

198. BRUNOWE, you are full of zionist bullshit. That's all for today. Thanks for your self-revealing contributions.

     You've, as usual, revealed that your are nothing put a pile of bile who wants to see Israel eliminated (for example, your comparison of the Israelis to the Germans of 1944--another Nazi reference?) but doesn't have the candor or courage to say so outright.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 3:34pm

199. Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 2:42pm: are going to have to put up with a little inconvenience

     Oh great. Another whackjob moron pops up. You guys are sorta like bedbugs.

     So, in your opinion, Israel is merely making the Lebanese people put up with a little inconvenience?

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 3:35pm

200. Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 2:47pm: So does Al Queada.

     Who are the friends of "Al Queada", Ed?

     It wouldn't be you, would it?

     If its you, I'm gonna have to report you.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 3:37pm

201. JANBA,

     Thanks for pointing out the Liberty. Big surprise that no one addressed this (it never really happened, I guess). It's funny, there are tons of Israelis down here, mostly along the coast in Santa Marta, Barranquilla, Cartagena, and they loathe Americans, despite the fact that they are their greatest benefactors. The Israelis use the term "goyim" when referring to their financers, as well as many other "gentiles". What a bunch of suckers you Americans are, supporting a people who applauded 9-11 and refer to you as "subhuman". Why you defend them I'll never know, since all they want to do is get you to subsidize their walls, army, incursions into other sovereign nations, not to mention draw you into a bigger conflagration in the Middle East. Ever wonder why they always refute your intelligence claims of Iran being years away from obtaining a nuke, saying they're only months away? They'll get you into a bigger war, just wait and see...

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 3:44pm

202. Orwell-its called "irony" and anyone with a third digit in their IQ would recognize that, even with you pulling it so totally out of context. O and please don't use "Orwell" but some other fiction writer more suited to your quality level of expression. I suggest "Coulter".

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 3:45pm

203. Gosh Chimi- we dumb old Americans are sure glad you warned us-you yourself had me fooled for a minute. I thought you were a reasonable person with a differing viewpoint and not a piece of anti-semetic, anti-american worthlessness.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 3:49pm

204. You people are fuckin' crazy.

     Posted by IAMIRONMAN at 07/24/2006 @ 3:54pm

205. Hey ED TRU LIB,

     Nice way to avoid addressing the issues - just call anyone with dissenting opinions anti this or anti that. Do you think people here who are liberals are dubbed "anti-Uribe" for not supporting the president? Is the opposition to Chavez called "antiVenezuelan"? What a lame way to defend yourself. I'm not an antisemite, but I am against the Zionists all over the world who believe they are fulfilling prophecy in assuring that Israel will be ground zero for Armageddon. Anti-American? The whole hemisphere is America, dumbass.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 3:55pm

206. It's an astonishing story....pull off the AIPAC gang's mask and free us from this noose... Posted by B_KOOL_66 07/22/2006 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person

     There's no one named bkool posting here. You zionists aren't satisfied with just inventing false words and affinities to attribute to others. You're compelled to also invent false opponents.

     Posted by FROMREDBIRD 07/24/2006 @ 3:15pm | ignore this person

     Gee FRB, it's just one inaccuracy after another from you.

     Posted by brunowe at 07/24/2006 @ 3:56pm

207. Amazing that this topic has brought out a divide among liberals like no other on these pages. So much hatred being tossed around; I really don't understand it. I don't know whether this lack of understanding comes from the fact that I care no more for Israel than I do for any other country out there; or whether it is from the fact that Israel and Jews in particular have been punched around for eons and, now finding themselves in a position to deliver knockout blows, target other groups who are themselves victims in many ways. The whole situation is sad, but quite honestly it is not as sad to me as seeing the neglect that either the conservatives among the liberals or the liberals among the liberals show to Israel or its neighbors. We're left with choosing the lesser evil in every case.

     And now virtually every country other than Iran is interested in playing a part in discussing this issue. But WE, the ones who had little interest in this matter when it first erupted, have decided that--again--the West knows best for those in the Middle East. Fuck us. Raving, lazy, stupid twerps who have screwed something or somebody every single summer of this millennium. WE who want longterm solutions have decided that most of the players in the region can be discounted. Fuck us to hell. Why are we bothering? Oh, right. The video. Yes, Condi will look sweet and cute and strong as she stands among the Muslim and Jewish big boys (none of whom are known by the majority of Americans). And she will come home, answer questions on Fox and the other nonsense shows and prepare for the '08 convention.

     Posted by tjbehrens1 at 07/24/2006 @ 4:02pm

208. chimster -- israelis are anti-americans who applauded 9-11? you are smoking way too much of that stuff. you actually DO need to go to summer school

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 4:06pm

209. I agree that most Americans don't know shit about Israel or the Middle East for that matter. As the AP pointed out a few months back, a recent study showed 75% of Americans aged 18-24 couldn't find Israel on a map, while 60% couldn't find Iraq. I think those older than 24 are not much better, though they think by turning on the "news" for 30 minutes that they're well-versed in Middle East studies...

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:09pm

210. warning: birdbrain is going blind in its left eye and, seeing only the ignore line is pecking away at it mercilessly. if this continues, birdbrain will soon disappear, talking only to the one-eyed fool in the mirror, and the quality of posts here may rise. be ready

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 4:12pm

211. NK,

     Well, the next time you're in Colombia let me know. I'll take you out to the Israeli hangouts and let you wax eloquent to them. Or are do you regularly run into Israelis fresh out of 24-month military training where the anti-Arab propaganda is honed along with tactics of killing them like I do?

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:16pm

212. chimmy -- given your earlier clarification, i take your statistics as an admission of ignorance on your part, though your other suggestion, that we employ more humor, may be an alternate interpretation for your allegation that israelis found pleasure with the events of 9-11.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 4:18pm

213. CHIMI

     I know you are still pissed about that Soldier who at one time either stole your girlfriend or beat the shit out of you or both.

     But dont project.

     Especially your moral relativist dopey-headed arguments. They dont work in real life.

     Hezbollah = a terrorists group that wants to destroy Israel and doesnt care how it does it.

     Israel = a legitimate nation state that has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualites and trying to protect its own.

     "If you have to DELIBERATELY kill innocents, to achieve your goals, then your CAUSE is NOT just!"

     Michael Collins.

     Hezbollah's cause is not just.

     Posted by CPT at 07/24/2006 @ 4:19pm

214. On the day of the 9-11 attacks, former Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu was asked what the attacks would mean for US-Israeli relations. His quick reply was: "It's very good…….Well, it's not good, but it will generate immediate sympathy (for Israel)"

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:20pm

215. CPT,

     Please dive on an IED whenever you get a chance. You're family will get a nice medal and a flag for your heroism.

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:21pm

216. i don't doubt that there are israelis who spout stupid and vile things about arabs. there are lots of stupid people spouting stupid and vile things all over the world, even on blogs. but you are using anecdotal evidence from a handful of very young dopes to argue that israel mocks the u.s., is actually cynical or worse about 9-11, and god knows what else. this is laughable.

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 4:23pm

217. netanyahu is a self-absorbed and crass, power-hungry politician whose stock has dropped enormously in israel, but who very inelegantly spoke the truth by trying to say that the u.s. and israel, both victims of murderous, islamic fundamentalist terrorists, would inevitably draw even closer in standing up to those who think they can intimidate the west with such unimaginable cruelty. from that you deduce that 21 year old israelis decompressing in colombia hate the u.s.? back to school, cheech

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 4:30pm

218. Well, you have a point, but as far as "schooling" goes, what does the rhetoric spouted by many of these recent army graduates say about THEIR schooling, not to mention the future sentiments towards Israel's neighbors?

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:40pm

219. But you're right, people are the same everywhere. You guys are taught to fear and despise Mexicans (I'd say Hispanics, but you refer to all Latinos as Mexicans), just as you're taught to fear people in turbans and burkas. Come to think of it, you guys fear everything that doesn't look, act and think exactly like you do!

     Posted by chimichenga at 07/24/2006 @ 4:42pm

220. Isn't it ironic that the pro Israeli guy (rio bravo) is also the global warming skeptic?!

     Posted by dinaholmes at 07/24/2006 @ 4:58pm

221. Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 3:45pm: Orwell-its called "irony" and anyone with a third digit in their IQ would recognize that

     What was the irony in calling Israeli's destruction of Lebanon "a little inconvenience"?

     Please educate me on this thing you call "irony".

     O and please don't use "Orwell" but some other fiction writer more suited to your quality level of expression. I suggest "Coulter".

     Thank you for the suggestion. I will keep it in mind.

     I am confused, however. I get the impression you are trying to insult me. I thought you whackjob fascists liked Ann. Is this more of your "irony"?

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 5:11pm

222. chim -- there is always an inordinate fear of the "other," and in the u.s., given the growth of the hispanic community, you don't have to look far for evidence of the fear, witness some of the crazies on the immigration issue. but the only constant is change, and even the u.s. is slowly but surely becoming more accustomed to spanish being spoken, to emerging hispanic political leadership in certain areas and, most of all, to the rising economic (purchasing) power of hispanics. but we are not at war and, sadly, that has a very corrosive impact on many aspects of the relationships between israel and its neighbors. but if you think the israelis with whom you come in contact with show evidence of hateful attitudes towards palestinians, you would think these guys are adherents of ghandi compared to young palestinians indoctrinated by an educational system that formally and officially and uniformly speaks of israelis and jews as sub-human. there has been considerable interaction between palestinian jews and arabs that works to negate the educational experience -- generally, contact is good, shopping in the souk is positive, seeing each other in normal settings is healthy and counteracts the image of the other as a killer -- but this is a process. and the leaders of one side, israel, wanted to pursue that process in 2000, and the leaders of the other side, the palestinian arabs, chose intifadah II. and when israel got out of gaza and out of lebanon, well...

     Posted by nk at 07/24/2006 @ 5:14pm

223. Posted by ED_TRU_LIB 07/24/2006 @ 3:49pm: we dumb old Americans are sure glad you warned us

     Ed, Americans aren't dumb. Why do you hate Americans, Ed?

     you yourself had me fooled for a minute.

     I bet that happens a lot.

     I thought you were a reasonable person with a differing viewpoint and not a piece of anti-semetic, anti-american worthlessness.

     Can someone be a piece of worthlessness?

     Perhaps this is more of your sophisticated "irony"?

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 5:14pm

224. "I agree that most Americans don't know shit about Israel or the Middle East for that matter. As the AP pointed out a few months back, a recent study showed 75% of Americans aged 18-24 couldn't find Israel on a map, while 60% couldn't find Iraq. I think those older than 24 are not much better, though they think by turning on the "news" for 30 minutes that they're well-versed in Middle East studies...

     Time to take a long look at the schools again....

     Posted by john maasch at 07/24/2006 @ 5:16pm

225. Posted by CPT 07/24/2006 @ 4:19pm: "If you have to DELIBERATELY kill innocents, to achieve your goals, then your CAUSE is NOT just!"

     Michael Collins.

     Hezbollah's cause is not just.

     Agreed.

     But then, Israel is now deliberately killing innocents. So, by the same reasoning, Israel's cause is also not just.

     Posted by orwell2005 at 07/24/2006 @ 5:18pm

226. There is a great oppoprtunity now to split Syria from Iran and offer them a way out of the hellsboola mess...Iran is the key to the present crisis here ...notice how the bulk of Arab world is sitting on their hands...

     If Israel can destroy hellsboola or cripple it permanently, then maybe Lebanon can have a chanse to be soverien(sp)..exert control over her own borders and cut a trade/peace deal with Israel...imagine Israeli tourist on the beaches of Beruit...again...

     Syrai needs help to see the path....

     Posted by john maasch at 07/24/2006 @ 5:19pm

227. Israel = a legitimate nation state that has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualites and trying to protect its own. CPT

     Is this a joke?

     Posted by dinaholmes at 07/24/2006 @ 5:20pm

228. Now now, Chimi...

     "You guys are taught to fear and despise Mexicans (I'd say Hispanics, but you refer to all Latinos as Mexicans), "

     How would Mexico(or any Hispanic country) feel if 10% of the American population arrived in 10 years and demanded schooling in english,had 5 children to every one of yours, demand voting,demonstrated in the streets against the host country,prefer US holidays and US flags flying on holidays and cars, opened business and demanded english translations and help everywhere while not learning Spanish, demanded health care and then ignored all of your immigration laws?

     Just making a litle point to re-establish perspective...no one fears the hispanics...we just fear becoming another impoverished branch of the Mexican society..turning 3rd world here..

     Posted by john maasch at 07/24/2006 @ 5:26pm

229. Israel = a legitimate nation state that has gone to great lengths to avoid civilian casualites and trying to protect its own. CPT

     Is this a joke?

     Posted by DINAHOLMES 07/24/2006 @ 5:20pm

     CPT is the joke. Some people think that stands for Captain. Bwa-ha-ha-ha-ha! Captain Klink, maybe.

     Posted by fromredbird at 07/24/2006 @ 8:54pm

230. fromredcanary, coulter(the freak formally known as orwell), dinaholmes, taco (or chimichunga or whatever she calls herself) eichmann etc--time to give it up-the reason Israel will survive is the mindlessness of its enemies, the vapid nonsense of their arguments, when weighed against just 1 hijacked schoolbus or plane by these courageous freedom fighters. Btw fromorwell, are you 1 of the 600 virgins each murderer is supposed to have waiting for him when he goes straight to heaven for slaughtering children. If so, I guess I can see why you get so excited thinking about them.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/24/2006 @ 11:40pm

231. Rio,

     You said of Prarie Dog's posting:

     "If that were even remotely true then there was no reason to cede back territory after the 1967 war! Your arguement holds no water!"

     We don't agree on much but I have to say, I agree with you this time.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 12:09am

232. This is not a "land grab." Israel occupied Southern Lebanon from 1982-2000 and was anxious to get out. It was, by all accounts, a disaster.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 12:10am

233. I am no Zionist, but I detect that anti-Zionism is overshadowing more important matters here such as looking at Hezbollah's stated claim that it advocates the destruction of Israel. That is not going to happen because no nation will ever negotiate its own destruction.

     Hezbollah is benefitting from this violent escalation and that is what is so tragic about all of this. Terrorist organizations thrive in chaos, nations do not. Let us consider that Israel may be making some dreadful mistakes here (I will not claim to understand all the angles of this horrific situation) but we should not for one minute be sympathetic to Hezbollah. They advocate murder and the erasure of a sovereign nation and no self-respecting liberal or progressive can agree with that.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 12:13am

234. And no conservative can endorse what Hezbollah wants either.

     We should all agree that Hezbollah is a rogue organization and then look at what might be the best map to some resolution of this latest conflict.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 12:14am

235. Does YOUR little war feel good ? If you had the little Button at your disposal, would you use it ? You're bombing each other each time you flex the muscle of your tongue. Titting and Tatting, may as well drive a tank over each other. You all need to simplify the argument, not wrestle an impossible debate. There is no sense in anything you shout, only Peace can bring about clarity. And I see no peace on this page. You are squashing problem into problem, forgetting where you placed sense. Losing yourselves in a maze of vitriol, all wishing to be heard, and loading a broken rifle every time you speak. You ARE all the Problem. You are turning a simple thing schizophrenic. Just listen to yourselves, your little WAR, and then and only then you shall see. xx

     Posted by monkeee at 07/25/2006 @ 12:18am

236. Monkee-basically you make a totally valid point-a simple truth. The problem is--here's another simple truth, that has been simple, and true, and crystal clear for almost 60 years=Both sides agree to stop fighting during negotiations, in negotiations Israel agrees to withdraw, Israel withdraws, Egypt or then Syria or then El Fatah or then Al Quaeda or then Hezbollah attacks. Israelis die, who could have been protected. Enough.

     Posted by ed_tru_lib at 07/25/2006 @ 12:25am

237. The whole situation needs to be calmed (which it won't) Instead it has become a double ended serpant, about which head you wanna kiss, and be bitten from. This juggling act is never gonna remain in the air, because none of us have the talent, or enough arms to stop the children, women, men from crashing from the sky to the broken ground. It will only be resolved when all of us remove ourselves, step back and refuse to fight, not look for ways to justify the bloodshed.

     Posted by monkeee at 07/25/2006 @ 12:38am

238. Monkee,

     I am not full of vitriol, I am just trying to make head or tail out of this mess. And I certainly do not relish the thought of more war, more violence, more death. The current wars in Iraq and Afghanistan trouble me enough as it is.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 01:05am

239. And this is no "little war." The implications of this conflict are staggering.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 01:06am

240. nice dream...sell it to a yoga class in tahiti and then have some fruit punch and cookies as the sun goes down over the gently lapping waves with the wind whispering in you your ears.

     Posted by nk at 07/25/2006 @ 01:08am

241. HHEMWM

     I wasn't referring to yourself with the vitriol comment, but more the previous posts on the preceding pages.

     And the 'Litle War' is also a comment about the grappling of 'who has the most valid point' on the previous pages also. It just seems like a race of flexing one's intellect, and getting wrapped up in all of that, stepping over each other to carry the baton to the finishing post, well I see no finishing post, only hurdles, too tall for all of us to clear.

     And how glorious it would be if that 'dream' was my actual reality NK. But far from it. I just see the futility of attempting to sort this problem from within the eye of it's storm. All of the Worlds problems from the inside, are an insurmounatable beast. At the core of conflict is a labyrinth of crossed wires and scattered mines of hatred and pride and delusion and false purpose. I just believe we are too far gone to fix it now, with another war, another conflict, another point to prove, another cause to inflict further suffering and hatred, and resentment. To me the only true way out is to remove onesely entirely, and refuse to bite the dasngled carrot. And yes, it won't happen, because people prefer to get involved, jump on board and fight their corner. But foghtiong ones corner ain't ever gonna work either, only rush us further to inevitable calamity and cataclysm, and the LOSS and the complete annihalation of LOVE,once and for all, and we are almost there - NOW. I would rather opt 'out', than partake in the destrcution. Opting out would work, and is the only thing that ever will, if only all of us sheep were to realise this. But signing up for the destruction, is just that !!

     Posted by monkeee at 07/25/2006 @ 01:35am

242. Israel has a right to defend herself, yet bombing Lebanon back to the stoneage only creates more hatred for the Jewish state and recruits more terrorists for more war. Even though Syria and Iran sponser terror, they must be considered (and engaged) for this horror to end. Appeasement concerns be damned. Children are dying.

     Posted by ethans0022 at 07/25/2006 @ 01:53am

243. Ethans0022,

     I think you are right about engaging states like Syria and Iran. If the last three years have shown us anything it is that unilateral military action does not work. The Bush administration thought that a "show of force" would dislodge terror and terror sponsoring states and they could not have been more wrong. So, I agree, this notion that we do not negotiate can not and will not work. The problem with all of this is that when you have active terrorist organizations with weaponry that can kill hundreds if not thousands of people, negotiations can not be the only tool anyone has at their disposal.

     This is a terrible situation we have on our hands and I, like you, am sickened by all of the people who are dying because of it.

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 10:17am

244. And I cannot understand how this administration can sit by like this . . . .

     Posted by hhemwm at 07/25/2006 @ 10:18am

245. Including the present Hamas government of Palestine in multi-national talks might prove a sticky wicket since 80 members of their government were abducted, Israel says arrested, six weeks ago and are presently being held in an Israeli jail without being charged. We can count on Rice stone-walling any calls for multi-national talks from Congress or anyone else.

     Posted by felicity at 07/25/2006 @ 2:35pm

246. The Deadly Bush Administration

     With all the mayhem of war going on in the middle east now, one is reminded of the regions' tumultuous and war ridden recent history- post ww11. Although the roots of the continually festering problem goes back further, it is the point from which the flowering of the present conflicts first becomes obvious.

     Where to begin. . .

     Most historians point to the creation of the state of Israel in 1948 as the catalyst for the present crisis. Perhaps so, but not exactly the way most observors consider and convey it. The fact is, the founding jews of Israel were always willing to share the land with their arab neighbors. The arabs were given every opportunity for creation, under world (u.n.) auspices, of their own state alongside Israel at the time! This point is often overlooked in the sometimes overly flip criticism of israel and its part in the regions' history.

     Aside from the palestinian arabs' (and their arab allies) utterly stupid and shortsighted refusal to have their own state when it was handed to them on a platter, both Israel and the arabs have been responsible for atrocity after atrocity and war after war over the last sixty years. Israel has turned itself into an armed camp, oppressing minorities and neighbors alike; having lost any true link to the peaceful concept of a 'jewish homeland'. And the arabs have lost all signs of their illustrious and enlightened past, moving from dictatorship after dictatorship to a new frightening wave of violent islamic orthodoxy and extremism.

     What to do. . .

     One thing is for sure. The inept, warmongering and unenlightened foreign policy of the Bush administration has made things only worse, not better. Their policies and actions have only further destablized an already unstable middle east to the point of breaking. One only needs look at the increasingly deadly Iraq war to understand this concept. Bush and his neocon sponsors need to be stripped of the authority to continue their disasterous undertakings. Taking the congress away from the repugs this year would be a major step in this direction. The middle east and the world will thank us for it.

     Get off your ass and VOTE Democratic Party in 2006!!!

     Posted by tfnewkirk at 07/25/2006 @ 3:51pm

247. Kucinich for President! Kucinich always makes the most sense. We unfortunately have a normally usually intellligent bunch of Democrats that act like idiots when ever the word Israel is mentioned. I expect that from the Repugs.

     Posted by tomearnist at 07/26/2006 @ 04:06am