Cheney Urges Transparency for Obama at 100 Days

posted by Ari Melber on 04/21/2009 @ 10:49am

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It's not too soon anymore. As President Obama nears his 100th day in office, the political and media assessments of his administration are piling up, including this Nation event in Washington on Wednesday.

Now sure, many people say the "100 days" frame is a bit tired. But it's also useful. We can step back from the crush of hourly stories -- the pirates and puppies, the budgets and bonuses -- to consider the larger policies and priorities of this administration.

The American Prospect recently took this tack in reviewing Obama's record on transparency -- a big campaign promise. There is impressive change, in reforming freedom of information policies and releasing the torture memos. There is also more of the same, however, with the administration deploying a radical reading of the "state secrets privilege" to deny torture victims their day in court. In fact, Obama's transparency record is drawing new fire from a very unlikely source.

Dick Cheney is now urging Obama to be less secretive.

On Monday night, the former Vice President announced that he was "formally" asking the administration to release secret documents that, he says, show the utility of torture. (The Fox News interview is here.) I asked Sen. Claire McCaskill about that request today, during a panel at a George Washington University conference. McCaskill said she was surprised to hear "Cheney" and "transparency" in the same sentence, but she supported Obama's increased transparency and is open to the declassification of further documents.

Other members of Congress on the panel, including Republican Cathy McMorris Rodgers and Democrat Steve Israel, also voiced some support for Obama's transparency agenda thus far. Israel stressed that if anything, the country needs even more government information and debate on torture. He also cited Twitter messages he is now receiving about Jay Bybee, after Israel announced his support for impeaching the judge, who authored memos advancing torture.

We'll dig into these issues much further at our Wednesday event, with Rep. Donna Edwards, Katrina vanden Heuvel, Chris Hayes, William Greider, John Nichols and Deepak Bhargava. If you have questions or ideas, comment below and I'll share them with the moderator. (I posed several citizen questions from Twitter to Sen. McCaskill and other members of Congress on today's GWU panel.) If you live near Washington, of course, drop on by.

And with his newfound interest in open government, maybe Cheney will be there, too.

Comments (162)

mr. cheney is only scared shitless about these torture investigations, becauase ultimately they point squarely at him. i can't wait to see the day when cheney's role in the desctruction of our country becomes fully public, and he languishes in prison for the rest of his days.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:02am
mr. cheney is only scared shitless about these torture investigations, becauase ultimately they point squarely at him. i can't wait to see the day when cheney's role in the desctruction of our country becomes fully public, and he languishes in prison for the rest of his days.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:02am

Well, no surprise that I hope one day to see Cheney honored for all that he did to preserve the nation. He remains in my view, the greatest vice president the nation has ever had.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 11:05am
Cheney knows he can't deny that he and Bush ordered people tortured....so Dubya lied when he said "We don't torture people."

Soooooooooo....Cheney is hoping that he can get some CYA and say "See? See? If we HADN'T tortured people...like we said we didn, but we did....we would have had another 9/11!!!!"

Posted by Mask at 04/21/2009 @ 11:06am
Can't blame him for wanting to diffuse the blame.

This serial draft doder is at best cunning.

Like many serial killers.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:08am
Doder?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:08am
What happened to the old deceitful and sneaky Chaney? You know, the one who was rarely seen and had the gall to have Google erase his residence? It seems to me that Chaney may be getting nervous about these torture memos. After all, many of his underlings are not only involved, but wrote the damning things. Just a thought...

Posted by P.D. at 04/21/2009 @ 11:11am
Pres. Obama has embarked on the re-establishing of the USA as the world leader in democracy and human rights through diplomacy. However, the USA can not advocate for other countries to recognize and support human rights until we remove the stigma of the Bush administration. We can not contend that this administration is different if they uphold and protect the crimes of the past administration. How can we condemn the dictators who torture, the genocidal governments and factions, or the human rights violators around the world when we have no moral standing? the USA has lost so much respect around the world we are viewed as little different from China or Russia in our actions. China and Russia also deny that they torture. We will only be viewed as hypocritics, otherwise known as Republicans. We must prove that not only we will not torture in the future, we will hold all those who tortured in our name accountable. We must investigate and prosecute those who participated and those who ordered it and those who justified it.

Posted by ChristianLiberal at 04/21/2009 @ 11:12am
My daydream: "Dick" Cheney and Lyndon LaRouche as cellmates.

I think LaRouche, even at his age, could kick Dick's ass in the paranoia intramural championships.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:16am
What happened to the old deceitful and sneaky Chaney?

Posted by P.D. at 04/21/2009 @ 11:11am | ignore this person | warn this person

Like I sez: Blame is like manure--best if you spread it around.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:18am
Like I sez: Blame is like manure--best if you spread it around.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:18am | ignore this person | warn this person

And there's gonna be plenty more of it from this ol' boy.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 11:20am
"Well, no surprise that I hope one day to see Cheney honored for all that he did to preserve the nation"

"preserve"?

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:30am
Note that no matter what gets released Cheney will claim that the administration is withholding the good stuff.

Posted by jayackroyd at 04/21/2009 @ 11:36am
antisocialist and cheney agree that:

if torture prevents another attack, then it isn't a crime.

even though torture is:

a) illegal

and

b) a practice we agreed to abstain from by signing four different treaties.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:40am
first, bush said, "we don't torture."

then he said, "we only tortured 3 times"

then he said, "we tortured two people 226 times"

then one of the memos LISTED all of the ways that we tortured.

then cheney said, "indeed"

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:43am
i guess that's what cheney means by "greater transparency"

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:43am
Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 11:40am

Actually, DD, what those guys argue is

"We don't torture...but it's good that we do because it saved lives!"

(They just add some rhetorical flourish so it doesn't LOOK as ridiculous as it sounds!)

Posted by Mask at 04/21/2009 @ 11:43am
He remains in my view, the greatest vice president the nation has ever had.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 11:05am

How can you say that, no one knows what he did. Nothing he did was open to the media or public review. On what basis do you call him great? That he was really good at scowling and being secretive? That the secret energy policy and task force succeeded in driving gas to over $4 a gallon? That as a legal draft dodger himself succeeded in allowing torture of POWS (aka enemy combatants). Good Grief man, what the hell good did Cheney do? Please enlighten me.

Posted by Extraneous at 04/21/2009 @ 11:49am
mr. cheney is only scared shitless about these torture investigations, becauase ultimately they point squarely at him. i can't wait to see the day when cheney's role in the desctruction of our country becomes fully public, and he languishes in prison for the rest of his days. Posted by darladoon

most hilarious comment today

Posted by abell12ct at 04/21/2009 @ 11:54am
Extraneous,

You ask ".....what the hell good did Cheney do? Please enlighten me...."

The Brooklyn Bridge is still standing in New York City.

The Sears Tower (I think it has been recently renamed) is still there in Chicago.

The Space Needle is still available to tourists in Seattle (terrorists at their camps had pictures of it).

The U.S. Bank Tower is still standing in Los Angeles.

There were aircraft that were planned for destruction during travel between the U.K and the U.S. No destruction happened.

These were some potential targets or known planned targets. There are no doubt things that never even got into a planning stage by the terrorists, because of how terrorism/threats were analyzed and dealt with after 9/11.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 12:14pm
How can you say that, no one knows what he did. Nothing he did was open to the media or public review. On what basis do you call him great? That he was really good at scowling and being secretive? That the secret energy policy and task force succeeded in driving gas to over $4 a gallon? That as a legal draft dodger himself succeeded in allowing torture of POWS (aka enemy combatants). Good Grief man, what the hell good did Cheney do? Please enlighten me.

Posted by Extraneous at 04/21/2009 @ 11:49am

Cheney undertook the task of ensuring that our enemies did not defeat us and kill thousands more or even millions more Americans.

Cheney's energy task force had absolutely NOTHING to do with raising gas prices.

Cheney provided sound advice on foreign policy to Bush

Cheney stood up to the defeatist, anti-American left in defense of our nation.

I'll take Cheney any day over Obama, or anyone else in the Democratic Party.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:17pm
He remains in my view, the greatest vice president the nation has ever had.

How on Earth can you say this? Is it the tired idea that Bush and Cheney kept us safe after they got us bombed? I believe Clinton kept us safe after a bombing as well, without having to start wars, torture, and kill hundreds of thousands of innocents. Cheney and Rummy personally profited from these wars to the tune of hundreds of millions. Cheney is the most evil American ever and I believe history will show just that. May he rot in jail, or even better, in hell.

Posted by joetherealist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:18pm
Cheney gets an 18% approval rating...which means even among REPUBLICANS he's not particularly popular.

Fortunately all 18% seem to be here for our amusment (sjcher, antisoc)...LOL

Posted by Mask at 04/21/2009 @ 12:19pm
"Cheney undertook the task of ensuring that our enemies did not defeat us and kill thousands more or even millions more Americans."

by breaking multiple laws.

if you are ok with that, then please say so.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 12:21pm
Cheney provided sound advice on foreign policy to Bush

He gave great advice like "We need to attack Iraq because they have WMD"...

Posted by joetherealist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:24pm
Well, no surprise that I hope one day to see Cheney honored for all that he did to preserve the nation. He remains in my view, the greatest vice president the nation has ever had.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 11:05am

oh my lord.

you've completely lost your mind.

hahahhahahahahahahhahahahhahhaha

you write this crap just to egg us on, ¿right?

¿right?

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/21/2009 @ 12:28pm
Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 12:14pm

cheney's greed and bloodlust created more terrorists in 8 years than the previous 200+ of manyfist destiny had.

you would make an excellent lapdog.

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/21/2009 @ 12:33pm
by breaking multiple laws.

if you are ok with that, then please say so.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 12:21pm

Cheney did not break any laws, so your question/statement is not relevant.

The continued villification of Cheney by the left is ample evidence of how successful a vice president he was.

the villification by the left should be considered a badge of extreme honor by the former VP. I know I would.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:34pm
larry,

you've got to stop snorting the d.u.

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/21/2009 @ 12:36pm
Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 12:14pm

Well thank heavens for Cheney cause without him the whole world would have ended... Good grief man. Your spewing nonsense. There is no reason to think that Cheney's actions prevented ANYTHING. Unless you just believe the propaganda. No one knows what Cheney really did, as everything he did was behind a wall of secrecy.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:17pm On what basis do you make any of your claims, you are only stating what you hope to be true, not what you have any knowledge about.

"Cheney undertook the task of ensuring that our enemies did not defeat us and kill thousands more or even millions more Americans."

Umm, so the 4+ thousand of soldiers that died in Iraq dont count as Americans? At what point were we threatened with defeat? How do you define defeat? Regardless, I still maintain that no one really knows what was going on behind the scenes with regards to Cheney. As nothing he did has been open to the public. Your statements are completely baseless.

Posted by Extraneous at 04/21/2009 @ 12:41pm
The continued villification of Cheney by the left is ample evidence of how successful a vice president he was.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 12:34pm

Now there is some solid logic. Anti, you are on a roll today. Are you really that blinded by your ideology? Wow, I actually kinda pity you now.

Posted by Extraneous at 04/21/2009 @ 12:48pm
"Cheney" and "pillock." Too bad the latter has seven letters instead of six, because then I could find even one more similarity between these two words.

Posted by raaustin at 04/21/2009 @ 12:50pm
This is pretty straightforward legally: Federal statutes prohibit torture of incarcerated persons; whether or not the information totured out of them is helpful or useful or corroborative is irrelevant to the question whether torture has occurred. Quite the contrary, by asserting that the "aggressive interrogation" techniques were effective, the former Vile President has admitted that torture was used, and in his never-humble opinion, it was worth it.

Fine. Does anyone need more evidence that he is evil?

Posted by bandinilo at 04/21/2009 @ 12:54pm
Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 12:14pm | "The Brooklyn Bridge is still standing in New York City.

The Sears Tower (I think it has been recently renamed) is still there in Chicago.

The Space Needle is still available to tourists in Seattle (terrorists at their camps had pictures of it).

The U.S. Bank Tower is still standing in Los Angeles.

There were aircraft that were planned for destruction during travel between the U.K and the U.S. No destruction happened. "

Mr. or Ms. Sjschermak, why do you assume that those structures are still standing as a direct consequence of torture? Where is your proof? The Bush Administration certainly did not release the tapes of when Khalid Sheik Mohammed said, "Oh yeah, because you waterboarded me over 100 times, you have saved those buildings." Amazing, because ex-CIA chief Hayden just stated that Obama shouldn't have released the torture memos and HE'S the one that "allowed" all those interrogation tapes to be "lost" or "destroyed." Hmmmm, maybe there was something incriminating on them that was hurtful to the Republicans who ordered the torture (like Cheney), huh?

Why is it OK to torture people? It's that simple. Don't you know the reason we're (Americans) officially against torture is so we can take the moral high ground against it when other countries do it? That's why we signed all those agreements against torturing...and the Bushes threw that all away.

Every expert on torture agrees (and I'm pretty sure no one on this board is an expert on torture - I'm certainly not) that torture doesn't work. Even John McCain agrees. Only the neo-con big-mouthed badasses who managed to NOT fight in Vietnam (Cheney) think torture works.

Good, hard, investigatory police work work done by people trained to do it works.

Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 04/21/2009 @ 12:56pm
Mr. Melber, I'd like you to ask the panel how Obama can justify insisting that Cuba release political prisoners when hundreds of people still languish at Guantanamo and others who have been tortured still have no legal recourse. How is that not a double standard?

Posted by mimsky at 04/21/2009 @ 12:56pm
Give them a medal -- Bring them out so we can get a close look at them

For if President Obama is right, that those who torture "serve courageously," then the retired CIA agents who tortured in the past should be most happy to stand before the public, and to receive what they deserve from the public.

Surely for if torture goons are criminals then they should rot behind bars. And if Obama did such a corrupt thing as to so deceive us, then he should also rot behind bars.

And if such an ungodly thing were true and I were the judge, surely every one responsible would receive double the torture and pain they gave to their helpless victims. Further, I would give their victims the right to inflict such a just punishment, and before the public, in the new baseball stadium in the great City of New York.

For surely it is written, "Do to others as you would have them do to you." But that is moral law, whereas civil law demands, "Do to others double the harm they have done to you." For the U.S. Supreme Court has ruled, "No one shall enrich themselves upon the misery of another."

For only in a dictatorship can there be torture, and only by permission of a dictator.

Posted by Alabama.John at 04/21/2009 @ 1:00pm
"Cheney did not break any laws"

cheney just yesterday openly admitted, to sean hannity, that his administration authorized and conducted torture.

torture is illegal under domestic and international law.

therefore, cheney broke the law.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:01pm
if antisocialist does not believe that the "techniques" approved by the DOJ do not constitute "torture," then by all means, defend your claim with logic. and also defend your ignorance of both the GC and the CAT.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:03pm
911 caused by vengeance -- Torture causes vengeance

Cheney tells us that torture "increases national security," but why then did Obama just request an additional 83 billion for the military? A total of 1.4 trillion for the military if hidden expenses are added such as interest on debt, and an increase of over 100 billion over last year. And at a time when both Russia and China are trading partners most friendly.

For a little soul searching is needed, as we caused 911 by allowing insane presidents to do war insanity in our name. For we have been fully aware that rich corporations in the war materials industry finance elections and hand pick war monger presidents. For they dearly love enhanced interrogation as it enhances anger against us, which enhances war, profit and self-glory. For CIA goons committing torture, this has been a news item on many occasions since I fought in the Vietnam War.

For if we did not have the CIA, then they could not have murdered a dozen presidents such as those of Iran and Brazil, could not have destroyed over 100 democratic governments and organizations, and could not have deceitfully lied to us about Iraq having weapons of mass destruction.

Just savor the thought of it, no CIA causing the world to detest us, and no wars in Korea, Vietnam, Palestine, Afghanistan or Iraq. And no national debt to destroy our children's happiness.

Posted by Alabama.John at 04/21/2009 @ 1:03pm
antisocialist, a sizable majority of americans favor investigations into torture.....

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:08pm
the thing about torture is this...

if you do it, and it does not work - don't brag...

and if it does work...STILL don't brag...

sheesh! seems like dick of all folks would lhave learned how to keep his bragging piehole shut...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/21/2009 @ 1:12pm
Darla and Alabama,

I just finished watching the interview with Cheney. Nowhere did he say that he or Bush authorized or conducted torture.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 1:18pm
antisocialist, a sizable majority of americans favor investigations into torture.....

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:08pm

A sizable majority of Americans have no idea about anything that is in the constitution (thanks to public education).

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 1:22pm
I'm actually OK with not prosecuting the CIA agents who actually committed the torture as long as they testify in open court as to who ORDERED them to torture (even if we already know). Name names! Threaten them with significant jail time and they'll talk. It's called gathering evidence against the REAL perpetrators of torture: Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Gonzalez, Addington, Yoo, Scooter and their ilk. And if we go after them, that would make me a happy camper. The Bush 7 (above) blamed a bunch of foot soldiers for Abu Graihb (sp?), so I'd like to actually see them come to account for giving the order to torture. I doubt it will happen, but call me an optimist. (Now that the memos have come out, maybe those soldiers falsely charged for Abu Graihb have cause for a suit, if they can just follow the train of orders from Bush to Cheney to Rumsfeld, to their generals, to their commanders, etc.)

As for the actual CIA agents, the torturing itself is something they will have to live with for the rest of their lives...knowing they committed torture against the laws of both man and God. If they couldn't find it in their consciences to disobey those orders and not torture in the first place, perhaps they'll find time and a place in their hearts to regret it.

Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 04/21/2009 @ 1:28pm
"Nowhere did he say that he or Bush authorized or conducted torture"

he didn't say "torture," he said, "programs." the programs which he authorized, in fact, contained torture. it's on paper, all over the web.

ergo.....

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:35pm
"A sizable majority of Americans have no idea about anything that is in the constitution (thanks to public education)."

so, the very majority who favors investigations knows nothing about the constitution; but the minority, including the torturers, knows everything about the constitution. brilliant.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:43pm
he didn't say "torture," he said, "programs." the programs which he authorized, in fact, contained torture. it's on paper, all over the web.

ergo.....

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:35pm

No, programs that You and other leftists call torture.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 1:48pm
"No, programs that You and other leftists call torture"

actually, the geneva convetions and the convention against torture call these programs "torture".

the very reason dick cheney won't use the word "torture" (you sh*t head) is because torture is ILLEGAL.

man, you are SO STUPID it hurts.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:49pm
so, the very majority who favors investigations knows nothing about the constitution; but the minority, including the torturers, knows everything about the constitution. brilliant.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:43pm

Time after time, whether it's man on the street interviews or polling; the results show that most Americans know little, if anything about the constitution or the govt itself.

I doubt if more than 10% of Americans really have any grasp of knowledge about the US Constitution. If they did, we wouldn't have the size of govt we have today.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 1:50pm
"Time after time, whether it's man on the street interviews or polling; the results show that most Americans know little, if anything about the constitution or the govt itself."

non sequitur.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:55pm
non sequitur.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 1:55pm

Fine provide evidence then that most Americans do have a solid understanding of the constitution.

I'll help you

<A new poll reveals that most Americans lack a basic understanding of the U.S. Constitution and its provisions. While the new poll raises doubts about how well public education is achieving its fundamental mission, a white paper issued by the U.S. Department of Education indicates profound confusion about what civics means.

Only 5 percent of American adults surveyed could correctly answer ten fundamental questions about the Constitution, according to the poll, the first-ever comprehensive survey of Americans' Constitutional knowledge. The telephone survey of 1,000 U.S. citizens, commissioned by the National Constitution Center and conducted by the polling firm Shepardson Stern & Kaminsky, has a margin of error of +/- 3.1 percentage points at a 95 percent level of confidence.

The poll results, issued in Washington, DC, to open Constitution Week 1997, September 17-23, demonstrated just how little Americans know about the Constitution. For example:

only 6 percent of those polled could name all four rights guaranteed by the First Amendment, and almost one-quarter could not name a single First Amendment right;

84 percent incorrectly believe that the Constitution states that "all men are equal";

35 percent believe that the Constitution mandates English as the country's official language;

about one in three did not know the number of branches in the federal government, and two in three could not name all three branches.

more help coming

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:00pm
More help Darla to back up the claim on constitutional knowledge

<By Lisa Brown, Executive Director, the American Constitution Society. Today marks the third anniversary of Constitution Day.

Most Americans can name the Three Stooges, but not the three branches of the U.S. Government. - 2006 Zogby Poll

Most Americans can name more members of Homer Simpson's cartoon family than can identify the five freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution. - 2006 study by the McCormick Tribune Freedom Museum

More Americans can identify the winner of American Idol than can name the Chief Justice of the United States. - 2007 Newsweek Poll

http://tinyurl.com/ddd2tt

Ok Darla, your move and good luck.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:03pm
(more non-sequiturs)

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 2:06pm
antisocialist, you don't really need too much familiarity with the constitution to argue that:

a) the bush administration performed waterboarding. it's now on paper, all over the web.

b) waterboarding is illegal under domestic and international law

c) the bush administration performed something illegal.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 2:10pm
anti

is waterboarding illegal?

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 2:11pm
Two points: 1) Only a chickenhawk who did everything in his power (five Vietnam deferrments until they ended with his second DUI!) to evade putting on a uniform would condone torture of anyone. The reason the for endorsing the treaties banning torture is so OUR soldiers won't be tortured in a conflict.

2) By letting the evidence out into the open, Mr. Cheney can then claim he cannot be tried for criminal acts. This would be seen as grounds for a mistrial. Seems the old Dark Lord is even craftier (and cynical) than we non-sociopaths could ever imagine.

Posted by Desert Son at 04/21/2009 @ 2:11pm
is waterboarding illegal?

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 2:11pm

I don't believe waterboarding should be illegal and my reading of the memos shows that what was performed was not the type of waterboarding that many international organizations consider torture.

Finally, no type of waterboarding was illegal during the time these interrogations were taking place.

As I've also previously noted, no international law or treaty can supercede the constitution and it's empowerment of the president to take all necessary steps to defend the nation.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:25pm
Oh yeah, Cheney is looking to put it out in public so the teflon presidency can get their peons to fall on their swords so Cheney can go around screaming, What?!?!?! Not me?!?!? See it was those other guys and not be tried for treason as he should be. Sigh. It's incredible how much evil these people commit and get away with it. Just as Nixon said when he claimed that if the president does it then it's not illegal (paraphrasing). They believe themselves above the law. That the Constitution is only worth anything when it helps them in their agenda. Otherwise it's a nuisance and should be subverted.

America has become less because of them.

Posted by annakis at 04/21/2009 @ 2:26pm
I don't believe waterboarding should be illegal

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:25pm

cool.

let's have a party!

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/21/2009 @ 2:37pm
frosty zoom,

You said ".....you would make an excellent lapdog...."

That is what you the enlightened said Tony Blair was - President Bush's lapdog.

But he would mop the floor with you in a debate with you about Iraq.

He would clean your clock, so to speak.

So maybe lapdog status is a badge of honor (or honour).

I have been called worse than a lapdog, don't forget - I have been called an Assclown!!!

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 2:45pm
Oh how our neocon friends miss the Cheney years.

Our normally dysfunctional friends stiffen with self-stimulation at the thought of their aptly-named "Dick" doing what he does best: massive use of vitriolic statism in furtherance of private gain.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 3:09pm
This nation owes Cheney and Bush a big thank you for keeping us safe after 911. Obama's decision to release CIA records are nothing short of treason. He is aiding and abetting our enemies. Fueled by revenge from the left. No thought about putting us in danger.Lets get the rest of the story out about how many lives were saved by these methods.When you have capture the man who planned the death of 3,000 innocent Americans, name rank and serial number will not suffice. A doctor was present at all times and I do not consider water in the face, slapping or putting a bug in a box next to someone who was afraid of them over the top. This is not in the same league as beheading. If we saved one life, I will be grateful for what they did. Get out of fairy tale world. Appeasement, smiles and handshakes will do nothing but gain the scorn of these ruthless and dangerous people.

Posted by Katie10 at 04/21/2009 @ 3:51pm
Posted by Katie10 at 04/21/2009 @ 3:51pm

Amen! thanks for a great post. The left unfortunately will never have the correct perspective. They believe it's better to see Americans die.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 3:53pm
NOBODY UNDER OUR SYSTEM OF LAWS IS ABOVE THE LAW I would hope that under Attorney General Eric Holder, a man of transparent integrity, no one is above the law. Cheney and the likes are advancing the argument that has long been discarded in Western democracies--that the end justifies the means. If we should follow this line of thinking to its logical conclusion, that would mean that we may be justified to cut off the body parts of detainees (including alleged terrorists) in our custody as they do in some Moslem countries, in an attempt to extract needed information from them. Let the full investigation of this matter go forward without any encumbrance from those sworn to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the land. In the end, we may be able to establish at least four things: whether, as Dick Cheney claims, we got much useful information (which I doubt--hence multiple waterboarding on a daily basis that suggests the information sought was not forthcoming); two, did those involved act even before they were authorized to do so; three, did any one exceed the bounds of authorized practice after they obtained authorization; fourth, who made the authorizationand with what legal logic. Above all, those responsible must be prosecuted to demonstrate to the world that we are a nation of laws and that no one is above the law!

Posted by drsam8 at 04/21/2009 @ 3:58pm
"I don't believe waterboarding should be illegal and my reading of the memos shows that what was performed was not the type of waterboarding that many international organizations consider torture.

Finally, no type of waterboarding was illegal during the time these interrogations were taking place.

As I've also previously noted, no international law or treaty can supercede the constitution and it's empowerment of the president to take all necessary steps to defend the nation"

none of this analysis is factual.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 4:00pm
"This nation owes Cheney and Bush a big thank you for keeping us safe after 911. Obama's decision to release CIA records are nothing short of treason. He is aiding and abetting our enemies. Fueled by revenge from the left. No thought about putting us in danger.Lets get the rest of the story out about how many lives were saved by these methods.When you have capture the man who planned the death of 3,000 innocent Americans, name rank and serial number will not suffice"

you could easily substitute the names "Bush and Cheney" with any of our enemies (who have used torture), and your point would have the exact same relevance.

Posted by darladoon at 04/21/2009 @ 4:02pm
only 6 percent of those polled could name all four rights guaranteed by the First Amendment

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:00pm

Most Americans can name more members of Homer Simpson's cartoon family than can identify the five freedoms guaranteed by the First Amendment of the Constitution.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 2:03pm

So the first question we need to answer seems to be, how many rights and/or freedoms does the First Amendment guarantee.

Posted by richcarl at 04/21/2009 @ 4:13pm
Well last I heard there were four rights: religious; speech; press; assembly. And that Congress shall not establish any religion.

Posted by theo51 at 04/21/2009 @ 4:22pm
Oh yea...Homer, Lisa, Bart, Marge, Maggie and Santa's Little Helper. That's five too!

Posted by theo51 at 04/21/2009 @ 4:24pm
I DO owe Dick a debt of thanks, too:

For moving his big, fat, draft-dodging, war-profiteering, physical-cowardly ass off the national stage.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 4:59pm
It's so nice when we can all get together like this and chat, eh?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 5:02pm
Desert Son,

As you know, Bill Clinton did send our troops to military engagements in Bosnia.

And, as you know, Bill Clinton avoided military service, he said he loathed the military.

How come Bill Clinton was never, and has never been identified as a "chickenhawk" - the label you apply to Vice President Cheney?

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 5:08pm
I don't believe waterboarding should be illegal Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009

cool.

let's have a party! Posted by frosty zoom at 04/21/2009

Can we make it a tea-bagging party? I'll bring the Chamomile. You bring the Darjeeling. Somebody else can bring the Earl Grey. Then we'll waterboard the tea-baggers [or is that tea-bag the waterboarders?] who I am pretty sure all got their taxes lowered this month (ungrateful wretches) and see how they like it And since waterboarding should be illegal, everybody can do it! Even frat parties, where nothing ever gets out of hand, and they know nothing of tea-bagging. Yeehaw!

But seriously, antisocialist...part of the reason waterboarding is considered torture by the United State of America (Republicans, Democrats and Independents) and every other civilized nation on the planet, is that the Japanese did it (among other things) to American soldiers in WWII. So, if you think waterboarding should be legal (when we do it to Muslims), what does that say to our soldiers who were waterboarded in WWII? "Get over it?"

And Cheney knows the "torture success stories" will never be released even if they do exist, because we as Americans are anti-torture. So, how are we to know if these supposed "success stories" are actually true? Are we to simply take Cheney's word for it? Puh-lease! The man obviously has difficulty with truth. Unless it's Orwellian "truth." Cheney can continue running his mouth and no one will be able to prove him "wrong" since the evidence he speaks of can't be released.

Personally, I think he's hoping for another attack so he can say, "I told you so."

And for those conspiracy theorists who think he was involved with 9/11, maybe he's just setting the stage again....<scary music cue>

Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 04/21/2009 @ 5:11pm
Torture is not the way to facilitate cooperation with other countries. The U.S. should focus more on soft power and increase the strategic foreign aid. The Borgen Project has good info on the estimated cost of ending global poverty:

$30 billion: Annual shortfall to end world hunger.

$550 billion: U.S. Defense budget.

Posted by davidwaters at 04/21/2009 @ 5:18pm
So the first question we need to answer seems to be, how many rights and/or freedoms does the First Amendment guarantee.

Posted by richcarl at 04/21/2009 @ 4:13pm

Well last I heard there were four rights: religious; speech; press; assembly. And that Congress shall not establish any religion.

Posted by theo51 at 04/21/2009 @ 4:22pm

5-you left out right to petition govt for grievances.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 5:18pm
5-you left out right to petition govt for grievances.

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 5:18pm

Well, this is where the counting seems to get a bit muddy. Is "the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances" one right or two? The two clauses are joined by "and" rather than "or" as they are elsewhere. This seems to be why some polls say four rights and others say five. (Assuming the "establishment of religion" clause isn't seen as a right or a freedom by anyone.)

I have no ideological point to make here. I just found it amusing that two different polls bemoaning Americans' lack of knowledge of the Constitution couldn't agree on the number themselves.

Posted by richcarl at 04/21/2009 @ 5:30pm
Well, no surprise that I hope one day to see Cheney honored for all that he did to preserve satan. He remains in my view, the greatest vice president satan has ever had.

Posted by antisociali at 04/21/2009 @ 11:05am

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/21/2009 @ 5:39pm
Dick "Shooter" Cheney is a cooked goose, and Obama is hosting the barbecue. I was afraid that Obama would knuckle under when he said that those who participated directly in torture would not be investigated or prosecuted. Apparently he was after larger game. And probably has enough testimony in exchange for immunity on file at the justice department to fry the perpetrators of these many crimes.

I will celebrate in the streets when Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, Bybee, Yoo and finally Bush are behind bars.

May they rot there..

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 5:41pm
The second part of the term "chickenhawk" is the word HAWK. A hawk is a person who talks bravely about fighting wars and the "glory" of service while sending OTHER people's kids to fight those glorious battles and never puts their own butt or family on the line for the "glory" of that service. By this definition, Cheney and Bush (declined all requests for oversees or combat duties to stay in AL) are chickenhawks. President Clinton did , indeed, end up sending troops to Bosnia, but only after much persuasion from our allies in Europe and the U.N. to prevent further genocide. That does not qualify as being a chickenhawk.

Posted by Desert Son at 04/21/2009 @ 5:42pm
Clinton may be a chicken. Maybe not, I don't know. I would call him a dove. He openly displayed his dislike of the military and the use of war as a tool of foreign policy. And, he hesitated for a long time (some would say, too long) before finally committing our troops to the cause in Bosnia.

A chickenhawk, on the other hand, is a pretender....one who talks tough and pretends to be in full support of the cause of war and the troops, but not if it includes him or herself in the fight.

A hawk looks to war as the first and foremost option to solving international problems and openly advocates the use of force as a tool of foreign policy.

Posted by Desert Son at 04/21/2009 @ 5:53pm
and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 5:18pm

Here's one point with which I agree with antisocialist: I redressed my grievances last November by purging Cheney and his ilk....

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 5:54pm
Here's one point with which I agree with antisocialist: I redressed my grievances last November by purging Cheney and his ilk....

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 5:54pm

Really? How is that since Cheney wasn't running for anything.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 6:01pm
Antisocialist is getting a lot of flack for his bizarre comments. I think once he argued that Cheney was our greatest vice president ever, it was time to ignore him. That kind of nonsense doesn't even deserve a response (yes, I know, I'm jumping in too, in spite of my better judgment).

I would add, however, that "antisocialist" is not as descriptive as "antiamerican." Anyone who supports breaking the law because he apparently believes that the ends justify the means is beneath contempt. Even worse, the ends did not even justify the sordid means. We have created far more enemies through those ruthless interrogation techniques, as McCain pointed out repeatedly during the campaign. Bush/ Cheney's un-American attitudes and policies attitudes that have led to even more American deaths, even if we don't care about the detainees themselves. Our "greatest vice president ever" is surely one of the worst, and quite possibly a war criminal. He has been instrumental in destroying our international reputation, making millions more enemies, and causing the deaths of thousands of brave U.S. soldiers. Thanks to that "great" Vice President, we have seen probably the greatest 8-year turnaround in global attitudes toward the U.S. in our history! The world loved us after 9/11; they hated us by the end of Bush/Cheney. So "Anti-American" sounds a lot more accurate than "antisocialist."

Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:09pm
"Antisocialist wrote: Cheney's energy task force had absolutely NOTHING to do with raising gas prices...Cheney provided sound advice on foreign policy to Bush.. Cheney stood up to the defeatist, anti-American left in defense of our nation. "

Antisocialist, I finally get it. As one of the other posts suggested, you are just pulling our chains, right? Nobody could be delusional or ill enough to really believe that. That's way beyond ultraconservative. I guess it's your sense of humor. Unfortunately, it's not that funny to the families of the brave soldiers who have died due to the massive anti-American hatred generated by the Bush/Cheney policies. Please, spare us your bizarre wit.

Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:18pm
even though torture is: a) illegal and b) a practice we agreed to abstain from by signing four different treaties. Posted by darladoon

c) a practice condoned by most of the democrats in Congress

Posted by abell12ct at 04/21/2009 @ 6:24pm
We agreed to not torture citizens of other signatories to those treaties. I have yet to see Al Qaeda sign a treaty.

Posted by abell12ct at 04/21/2009 @ 6:26pm
Obama's top Security Agent just made public a letter stating that those interrogations produced much high level information and stopped a second wave attack on a tower in Los Angeles. It is time for moveon.org to shut up and for the president to start paying attention to our domestic issues now and in the future and quit the blame game. If this becomes a far left circus it will cripple our ability to be safe in the future. Congress has a terrible approval rating now and it will get worse if they do not attend to business. Enough!

Posted by Katie10 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:28pm
Antisocialist is getting a lot of flack for his bizarre comments. Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:09pm

Antisocialist (The Rev) is batcrap crazy.. And dropping more marbles as we speak. I truly hope the NSA is keeping an eye on him. I would think that his family would notice his mental disorder. But maybe not. Love is blind sometimes and relatives often do not want to admit to a "looney" in the family tree.

Lets hope for the best for Larry, and wish him a speedy recovery on his journey to sanity.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 6:29pm
Antisocialist, I finally get it. As one of the other posts suggested, you are just pulling our chains, right? Nobody could be delusional or ill enough to really believe that. That's way beyond ultraconservative. I guess it's your sense of humor. Unfortunately, it's not that funny to the families of the brave soldiers who have died due to the massive anti-American hatred generated by the Bush/Cheney policies. Please, spare us your bizarre wit.

Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:18pm

Antisocialist (The Rev) is batcrap crazy.. And dropping more marbles as we speak. I truly hope the NSA is keeping an eye on him. I would think that his family would notice his mental disorder. But maybe not. Love is blind sometimes and relatives often do not want to admit to a "looney" in the family tree.

Lets hope for the best for Larry, and wish him a speedy recovery on his journey to sanity.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 6:29pm

I'm dead serious. I served my country, as have my sons and males in every generation going back to the French Indian Wars.

You folks may have a socialist dream for America, but I and my family have given blood and treasure for this constitutional republic. I've earned the right to speak out as I do. I won't back off for anyone from that right.

There has never been a duty that our family shrunk from in service to country.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 6:34pm
"Posted by Katie10: This nation owes Cheney and Bush a big thank you for keeping us safe after 911. Obama's decision to release CIA records are nothing short of treason...I do not consider water in the face, slapping or putting a bug in a box next to someone who was afraid of them over the top. ..Get out of fairy tale world. "

Katie10, I see that "Anti-American" (oops, I mean "anti-socialist")has company. I'm glad that in your fairy tale world you feel safer. As for me, I wish that we hadn't created millions of enemies through completely un-American policies that were the opposite of everything that we stand for. Far more people wanted to kill us by the end of the Bush adminstration than before.

I'm happy for you that in your world waterboarding is only "water in the face" and completely acceptable. Unfortunately, in the real world waterboarding is a near-death experience that is officially torture. Every future American soldier who gets tortured can thank you and your ilk for taking away our moral position in opposing the torture of our soldiers. Read John McCain's thoughts on the subject, or is he too socialistic for you?

Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:34pm
Antisocialist, I have a dream for this country too. I believe in the Constitution--I mean REALLY believe in it in a way that you have demonstrated that you do not. You can't pick and choose which parts of the Constitution you wish to accept, depending on your convenience. It's also disingenuous to claim, as you have done, that somehow you have the inside track on knowledge of the Constitution, and that others do not, as evidenced by the depressing statistics on the public's knowledge its features.

Thank God that people like you are no longer in power. They seemed to be trying to destroy a country that has a proud history of more than 200 years. Luckily, the country and its Constitution are stronger than some two-bit politicians who want to violate the nation's basic rules. We survived Bush/Cheney, and we will survive fringe attitudes like yours. I don't want socialism, and I don't want fascism. I don't know who is more frightening, you or the other side.

Posted by rharris50 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:41pm
How come Bill Clinton was never, and has never been identified as a "chickenhawk" - the label you apply to Vice President Cheney?

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 5:08pm

Apples and oranges. Not a shot fired in anger in Bosnia, to my knowledge. I was there.

Not like the number of kids this punk has gotten killed.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 6:41pm
Posted by Katie10 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:28pm

Are you yet another wing nut? Welcome. We are here to detox you from the koolaid. First you must shut down Fox news and discontinue listening to right wing talk radio.

Just settle down and try to think for yourself for a change. This can be difficult as your brain is currently being washed on a daily basis.

That you showed up here is a good sign. Sit back, relax and listen. The truth may set you free..

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 6:45pm
Really? How is that since Cheney wasn't running for anything.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 6:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Hey, "Dick" didn't run for President either--but he still was anyway.

What's the point?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 6:47pm
There has never been a duty that our family shrunk from in service to country.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 6:34pm

Except the duty to support the letter and spirit of the constitution and the rule of law. From those things you have shrunk...

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 6:57pm
"You folks may have a socialist dream for America, but I and my family have given blood and treasure for this constitutional republic. I've earned the right to speak out as I do. I won't back off for anyone from that right.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @6:34pm

I'm a vet, too, and my dream isn't for a socialist America: just one that lives by the decent principles it espouses.

Yes, you've earned the right to speak out. Folks here aren't denying you that right. They're simply disagreeing with your support of a vice-president who brazenly and unapologetically thwarted some of the fundamental principles you, your sons, and I fought for.....

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 6:58pm
the fundamental principles you, your sons, and I fought for.....

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 6:58pm |

Well said.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 7:06pm
Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 6:58pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Well said.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 7:07pm
I have yet to see Al Qaeda sign a treaty.

Posted by abell12ct at 04/21/2009 @ 6:26pm

I have yet to see a "movement" sign a treaty. Usually a country does that. Since Al Queda is an extremist Sunni movement who uses terrorism as a tactic to further its aims, it should be treated as a criminal organization. Investigated, prosecuted and pursued as such.

Terrorism should not be used as an excuse to invade soverign nations with the miltary in order to co-opt that nations natural resources for capiltalist gain. We have police forces to deal with criminal acts. Not the military.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/21/2009 @ 7:19pm
They're simply disagreeing with your support of a vice-president who brazenly and unapologetically thwarted some of the fundamental principles you, your sons, and I fought for.....

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 6:58pm

There are many of us who disagree with you that Cheney thwarted any principles.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 7:50pm
There are many of us who disagree with you that Cheney thwarted any principles. Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 7:50pm

Well, not so "many," really...You ARE aware--are you not--that there few alive in the U.S. who hav a favorability rating LESS than your esteemed VP, right? Last month it was hovering at 15%, so if you're comfortable with equating "many" with less than 1/7 of the US, you might want to rethink your assertion.

But, I suspect you'll likely not discover such things on your own as long as you continue to restrict your "news" gathering to sources at Fox.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 8:01pm
You 18%ers explain something to me...

You BELIEVE Dick Cheney when he tells you that that "programs" he authorized "prevented terrorism"...

yet this is the same Dick Cheney who told us before we invaded Iraq that it would cost "$50 Billion at most"?

What exactly gives Cheney credibility to you....besides the (R) after his name???

Posted by Mask at 04/21/2009 @ 8:23pm
There are many of us who disagree with you that Cheney thwarted any principles.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 7:50pm | ignore this person | warn this person

You got a point there.

That boy don't have any.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/21/2009 @ 8:48pm
I suppose most of us could be thankful to Fox News, for because of them, it appears we're now seeing and hearing more of Cheney than we ever saw in his eight years holding out in his bunker.

And for a guy who operated so secretively for all that time, it does seem contradictory that NOW he'd call for transparency. This from the guy who refused to disclose the attendees and content of his "energy summit" early on. From the guy who as a matter of course destroyed all logs indicating who visited his VP office. From the guy who removed his office from Google Earth.

And now he calls for transparency? What a hypocrit!

And when asked to comment today (on Fox, of course) as to the advisability of Obama's meeting with South American leaders, says, "In the previous admnisitration, we chose to ignore them, and I think that was the right thing to do."

I wonder why ANYone asks him ANYthing; he's gotten most everything wrong.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 10:18pm
liberated_liberal,

You said ".......But, I suspect you'll likely not discover such things on your own as long as you continue to restrict your "news" gathering to sources at Fox......"

I have to admit, I get a kick out of stuff like this.

The vast majority of the mainstream media is lib-biased........Fox News is not......

And that drives you libs nuts! You just can not stand Fox News!

You want 100% of the mainstream media to be lib biased. You are besides yourself that the percentage fall short of 100%.

Cccomfo1 will not like me posting this, but I have to admit, sometimes I do enjoy things that irritate you libs.......

Fox News irritates you libs.

Sarah Palin really gets you going!

I guess if an organization or a person irritates you libs that much, they must be on the right track.

If I live that long, it will be fun to see all the angst and contortion after President Palin takes office in January 2013.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 10:25pm
Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 // You want 100% of the mainstream media to be lib biased.

No, I don't. See, I watch Fox News for its fair and balanced reporting, just like you.

//sometimes I do enjoy things that irritate you libs....... Fox News irritates you libs.

Actually, Fox doesn't irritate me at all.

//Sarah Palin really gets you going! Yeah, she's a motivator, all right, AND she's able to see Russia from her house!

//If I live that long, it will be fun to see all the angst and contortion after President Palin takes office in January 2013.

"live that long"? Why? Are you infirmed? And as for the likelihood of ever seeing a President Palin, well, now, THAT'S FUNNY! Hint: Your side is going to have to do a LOT better in picking its next slate.... Nevertheless, and FWIW, I hope you ARE around that long (no sarcasm here).

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 10:47pm
Obama's top Security Agent just made public a letter stating that those interrogations produced much high level information and stopped a second wave attack on a tower in Los Angeles.

Posted by Katie10 at 04/21/2009 @ 6:28pm

Timothy Noah skewers this particular torture apologists' talking point in his piece in Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/

Posted by richcarl at 04/21/2009 @ 10:54pm
Aug. 30 & 31, 2005, Cheney made two personal calls to the manager of the Souther Pines Electric Power Company and ordered him to divert repair crews to work restoring power to the Colonial Pipeline.

The crewmen were upset because at this time they were busy trying to restore power to two local hospitals. See Katrina, Hurricane....

Spare me your bullsh*t about how Cheney preserved the country and Cheney stopped terror attacks... The man is a reprehensible scumbag.

Posted by koroviev at 04/21/2009 @ 11:27pm
But, I suspect you'll likely not discover such things on your own as long as you continue to restrict your "news" gathering to sources at Fox.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/21/2009 @ 8:01pm

Sorry, I don't watch Fox. Freespeech TV, Link TV, and MSNBC are main tv news sources, KPFK Pacifica Radio (far left station). Don't listen to Rush very often (wish I did). Don't like Hannity or O'Reilly (O'Reilly is a moderate and Hannity is a simpleton).

Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 11:30pm
If I live that long, it will be fun to see all the angst and contortion after President Palin takes office in January 2013.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 10:25pm

put down that vaseline!

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/22/2009 @ 12:19am
as for those who claim they are proficient in constitutional law, here is the rub:

"The underlying absurdity of the administration's position can be summarized this way. Once you get to a substantive compliance analysis for "cruel, inhuman, and degrading" you get the position that the substantive standard is the same as it is in analogous U.S. constitutional law. So the OLC must argue, in effect, that the methods and the conditions of confinement in the CIA program could constitutionally be inflicted on American citizens in a county jail."

Posted by darladoon at 04/22/2009 @ 12:30am
See? On ocassion, you CAN find things of a bipartisan nature to agree with Larry/antisoc on...

"...Hannity is a simpleton)."----Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @ 11:30pm

Posted by Mask at 04/22/2009 @ 07:53am
Oh yeah, big dif between a chickenhawk and a hawk for chicks... good one.

Like the dif in the price of a blue dress versus millions of lives and trillions of dollars lost, a nation and world in free fall...

Talk about a blown job.

Or the def of what is is or has been...

Er, ok, I'll stop there.

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 08:35am
"The underlying absurdity of the administration's position can be summarized this way. Once you get to a substantive compliance analysis for "cruel, inhuman, and degrading" you get the position that the substantive standard is the same as it is in analogous U.S. constitutional law. So the OLC must argue, in effect, that the methods and the conditions of confinement in the CIA program could constitutionally be inflicted on American citizens in a county jail."

Posted by darladoon at 04/22/2009 @ 12:30am

Darla, lay down the pipe and step back.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 08:51am
hsuBfools,

You say ".....Er, ok, I'll stop there......"

Now that's a good idea!

As you already know, Bill Clintons lies are documented in a court of law -- you do remember he does not now have a license to practice law as a result, don't you?

And as you also already know, the concept that George W. Bush lied is a construction of leftist imagination - it is leftist opinion only.

And you are also aware I am sure that the millions of lives you refer to are the millions of lives saved because Saddam was stopped and did not go back to making WMD again that would have gotten in the hands of terrorists and used against us.

Since you do know those things it was a good decision to stop your commentary above when you did!

Posted by sjchermak at 04/22/2009 @ 08:55am
put down that vaseline!

Posted by frosty zoom at 04/22/2009 @ 12:19am

Just between you and me and on the down low, Sarah Palin does have a certain ability to.. shall we say, ahem.. "Ripen my Banana". Only I don't use vaseline as it is to messy and not water soluble.. Just sayin..

Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 09:08am
As you already know, Bill Clintons lies are documented in a court of law--

And as you also already know, the concept that George W. Bush lied is...

Posted by sjchermak at 04/22/2009 @ 08:55am

...about to end up just like Bill's-- in a court of law! cHeney's too!

Do you fear that like most new cons?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 09:19am
Darla, lay down the pipe and step back.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 08:51am

To use a cheap shot like that to attempt to undermine a relatively cogent and well thought out comment is typical of a closed and locked mind.

When the truth is presented to you, you immediately respond with the classic "Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil, and See no Evil" closed minded response.

Maybe you should pick up the pipe..

Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 09:25am
Do you fear that like most new cons?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 09:19am

What concerns me is mob voice of the far left calling angrily for a 21st century witch hunt. Only this time they are targeting the people who were defending them against people who would kill them if they had the opportunity.

That is what is so stupid about the left. Their anger is directed at the people defending them instead of the people that want to kill them.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 09:32am
What concerns me is mob voice of the far left calling angrily for a 21st century witch hunt.Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 09:32am

What you call "the far left" is actually the majority of the American People. No where near the "mob voice" of which you speak. Ironically the "mob voice" that you speak of is the voice of Rush Limbaugh and Fox news. In the form of these top down not grass roots tea parties.

The Bush/Cheney administration made us less safe and were in no way protecting us. Their policies of torture, rendition and ignoring international treaties along with trashing the constitution has made us less safe and more reviled around the world.

Obama is attempting to patch up the damage that has been done by essentially 28 years of failed Repugnant policies.

You should be grateful that the majority of people in this Democratic Republic finally realized these things and elected people that can truly make you and your family more safe.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 10:06am
And hopefully we will be able to nudge this administration in a direction that ensures that the people responsible for this current mess are properly held accountable for their crimes.

That way history will record that we as a people actually did something to make certain that future generations will not have to deal with the hijacking America by Terrorist Extremists like BushCo.

Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 10:17am
What concerns me is ... a 21st century witch ... targeting the people who WERE defending them against people who would kill them if they had the opportunity. That is what is so stupid about ... Their anger IS directed at ... the people that want to kill them.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 09:32am

If only you could know what it is you are really saying when corrected with the reality that most everyone else lives in-- except of course for the delusional new con repubs like yourself.

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 11:18am
Dick Cheney was a great Vice President, if you were part of one of the companies that profited from the war in Iraq. Look, use the old 'Follow the money' viewpoint and it's easy to see that the war was very successful. For companies with which Mr. Cheney had previous ties like Haliburton it was a bonanza. Forget about combating terrorism, that's idealogical old hat, this war was about business and making money. The soldiers were merely a type of currency and were spent the way one would spend dollars and with no more regard that. The use of torture was just a way to look tough since no one in the Bush Administration's upper echelons had any warrior 'cred' except Colin Powell. It was an affectation to make people feel that Cheney and his guys were rough hard-bitten realists in a dangerous world. It simply enhanced a business model.

Posted by DavidDurham at 04/22/2009 @ 11:19am
hsuBfools,

You asked "......Do you fear that like most new cons?....."

No.

I think you are getting your hopes up too soon. What you want is most likely not going to happen.

Obama is too busy promoting agenda items like government control of business, taxing the wealthy, making sure there is wide-open abortion, printing reams and reams of money that has no backing in order to "stimulate", engaging in dialogue with Hugo and Fidel's brother Raul, getting ready to put pressure on Israel, letting terrorists and others in the world know we mean them no harm and we are sorry for actions taken by the previous administration (and the previous administration in the UK, too) that helped save lives and protect people the terrorists would like to kill, etc. etc. etc.

Obama is busy now and he has not really even started on trying to start socialist medicine or any of the things that Algore would like to see done about global warming (while the planet may be cooling now).

I am sure Obama would like to do what you want but he has too much else on his plate right now and I guess "getting" people (the previous administration) that worked to defend and save our country is not the most productive thing he can do now to advance the cause of socialism here in the United States.

And from a practical standpoint right now Obama would not want to completely scour away the ability he might need to respond someday to an as yet unforseen attack and method of attack upon our country, so that is also why what you want is low on his list of priorities.

Who knows that if Obama had to respond a certain way in a future threat, that the real extreme left might demand he be investigated and tried for something, also.

The far left has shown angst towards Obama already.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/22/2009 @ 11:30am
Posted by DavidDurham at 04/22/2009 @ 11:19am

Ahh, yes-- the profit in business of crime.

What's the dif between Dick cHeney and Moby Dick?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 11:45am
One had a just cause to defend itself...

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 11:45am
hsuBfools,

You asked "......Do you fear that like most new cons?....."

No.

I think you are getting your hopes up too soon.

Obama is too busy...

Obama is busy ...

I am sure Obama would ...

And from a practical standpoint right now Obama would ...

Who knows that if Obama ...

The far left has shown angst towards Obama already.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/22/2009 @ 11:45am

So it's not cHeney getting hung you fear... sounds like it's just OBAMA! BOO! BWAHAHahahah.

But also remember the Obama elected change chose not to control the courts, congress, nor the DoJ-- like the petty dic'tatorslip of the new con hsuB/cHeney admin once did.

Thus Obama's hands may never touch the slime that will be the hsuB/cHeney admin backwash into the court system.

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 12:04pm
There is utility in dropping a nuclear bomb on an unruly country. The question is whether it is moral to do so... Just because torture can be useful doesn't mean we should use it.

Posted by Hood203 at 04/22/2009 @ 12:07pm
"Still doesn't know why he lost...or why 'Cuda won't even see another PRIMARY in national politics; not even as a veep. Perhaps you can go on the campaign so she'll have somebody to pray with...because divine intervention is the only way that dimwit is going to fulfill your dreams, Cherm.

Posted by snowball666 at 04/22/2009 @ 05:13am"

Agreed, and when you think about it, the best thing for the Dems would be to support the nomination of SP for Pres. I'd contribute to her campaign to be sure it was she who'd run (and get trounced again!).

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/22/2009 @ 12:10pm
Timothy Noah skewers this particular torture apologists' talking point in his piece in Slate:

http://www.slate.com/id/2216601/

Yeah, but Katieo is predisposed to believe what Cheney and his ilk WANT people to believe, even if the facts prove them wrong.....it's an Orwellian pattern.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/22/2009 @ 12:16pm
For a while way back when, samurai lowered the crime rate to almost nil by instantaneously beheading the perpetrator of 'any' crime, i.e. stealing, political blunders, not bowing fast or low enough,...

Yeah, on the other hand, the hsuB/cHeney admin-- wouldn't be missing much.

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 12:18pm
Darla, lay down the pipe and step back.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 08:51am

And Darla's logic is flawed how? Nothing wrong with disagreeing, but such snipes by themselves, without rational argument, reveal little more than your inability or unwillingness to participate with any intellectual sincerity.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/22/2009 @ 12:24pm
We become our enemy:

The 232-page, newly declassified report was approved by the Armed Services Committee on November 20, 2008, and had since then been under review at the Department of Defense for declassification.

Sen. Carl Levin, chairman of the Armed Services Committee, wrote about the significance of the report on HuffPost: In my judgment, the report represents a condemnation of both the Bush administration's interrogation policies and of senior administration officials who attempted to shift the blame for abuse - such as that seen at Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo Bay, and Afghanistan - to low ranking soldiers. Claims, such as that made by former Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz that detainee abuses could be chalked up to the unauthorized acts of a "few bad apples," were simply false.

The report revealed new information about the origins of the military's interrogation techniques. As the Washington Post writes:

[The report] sheds new light on the adaptation of techniques from a U.S. military program known as Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape (SERE), used to train American service personnel to resist interrogations if captured by an enemy that does not honor the Geneva Conventions' ban on torture.

The military's Joint Personnel Recovery Agency (JPRA) has been reported to have reverse-engineered these methods to break al-Qaeda prisoners. The techniques, including waterboarding, or simulated drowning, were drawn from the methods used by Chinese Communists to coerce confessions from U.S. soldiers during the Korean War -- a lineage that one instructor appeared to readily acknowledge.

"We can provide the ability to exploit personnel based on how our enemies have done this type of thing over the last five decades," Joseph Witsch wrote in a July 2002 memo.

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 12:29pm
"the methods used by Chinese Communists to coerce confessions from U.S. soldiers during the Korean War -- "

Confess being US soldiers or stuff they did not do?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 12:33pm
DICK CHENEY'S DAMAGE TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY--WHAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED Beyond the question of release of classified intelligence documents by the Obama administration, there is a related issue everyone seems to have missed--Dick Cheney's irreparable damage to our national security. Cheney extols the virtue of tortue as a means of obtaining needed information--a kind of end justifies the means argument. After all said and done, we will at some point try to bring many of these detainees to American justice. That, indeed, has created an undenyable dilemma for the Obama administration: how to bring detainees to justice without denying them a fair opportunity to defend themselves as allowed in our system of justice. Because the most damning evidence against them might have been obtained by duress and torture, would such evidence be admissible in a credible court system? If they are not, would you let these criminals go free? Even the little information that might have been obtained would prove useless under the strict rules of American jurisprudence. The Republican approach is to keep detainees at Gitmo indefinitely. Such an approach would keep the dark clouds of the Bush-Cheney years continually hanging over our head like the mythical sword of Darmocles. I feel able to argue that torture of detainees has not only sullied our reputation abroad but has made America less secure!

Posted by drsam8 at 04/22/2009 @ 1:32pm
So will the soldiers that already got convicted for following order a la the Abu Ghraib scandal-- be released?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 1:35pm
er, following 'orders'

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 1:39pm
--The sensitive topic of the release of the torture memos came to the forefront when Republican Rep. Dana Rohrbacker asked Clinton if she agreed with Dick Cheney's request that documents ostensibly showing the efficacy of the torture programs should be declassified. Clinton ultimately replied that she believes "we ought to get to the bottom of this entire matter" and that it "is in the best interest of our country" to do so, but not before she took a shot at Cheney's credibility, saying "I don't consider him to be a particularly reliable source of information."

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 1:42pm
Sarah Palin really gets you going!

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 10:25pm

Uh, correction, SJ. It's YOU she gets going. Heh Heh

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:03pm
If I live that long, it will be fun to see all the angst and contortion after President Palin takes office in January 2013.

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 10:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

I envy you your sense of humor sir.

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:04pm
Sarah Palin really gets you going!

Posted by sjchermak at 04/21/2009 @ 10:25pm

Uh, correction, SJ. It's YOU she gets going. Heh Heh

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:03pm | ignore this person | warn this person

Whoops, forgot. *wink* (fancy pageant walking) "you betcha"

That do it for ya?

LOL

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:08pm
DICK CHENEY'S DAMAGE TO OUR NATIONAL SECURITY--WHAT EVERYONE SEEMS TO HAVE MISSED...

Posted by drsam8 at 04/22/2009 @ 1:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

The damage by Dick was done when he had to venture inside that Frigidaire wife of his to get his final deferment.

Remember that, Dick?

Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:12pm
) By letting the evidence out into the open, Mr. Cheney can then claim he cannot be tried for criminal acts. This would be seen as grounds for a mistrial. Seems the old Dark Lord is even craftier (and cynical) than we non-sociopaths could ever imagine.

Posted by Desert Son at 04/21/2009 @ 2:11pm

Don't worry, Cheney isn't as smart as he thinks he is. If he were, he wouldn't be in the mess he presently finds himself in.

It doesn't matter whether he gets the information out there or not, if he's the one who gave the order to torture people and the evidence points his way, he'll have a hard time avoiding this draft. He's in violation of U.S. law and international laws as well.

These cowboy wannabes thought they were really tough ordering the torture of prisoners of war. Of course, these tough cowboys were doing all of their tough talking behind the army, navy, air force, marines and coast guard. Cheney and W played the John Wayne part all of the way....."bring it on", "these colors don't run", "the dems are weak on defense" yadda yadda yadda.

Now, all of their swaggering, bragging, and war mongering may come back and bite them in their asses. Cheney is the most deserving to have his ass bit first.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 04/22/2009 @ 3:19pm
Isn't Obama actually saying that he's going to pardon the soldiers that already got convicted for following orders a la the Abu Ghraib scandal?

Lynndie England, sentenced for 3 years in prison.

Sabrina Harman, a maximum of 5½ years in a military prison.

Charles Graner Jr., serving a 10-year prison sentence at Fort Leavenworth.

Ivan Frederick, sentenced to 8½ years.

Jeremy Sivits, sentenced to a year in prison.

Roman Krol, sentenced to 10 months in prison.

Armin Cruz, sentenced to eight months.

Javal Davis, received a six-month sentence.

Otherwise, won't not pardoning all these soldiers taking orders from up the ranks be a major contradiction to his own policy of not going after the CIA participants too?

And if they're no longer dishonorably discharged, do they get their benefits back?

Can these soldiers sue hsuB/cHeney for lost wages, pain and suffering?

Can all the innocent victims of the torture, their families and all those still disappeared, sue hsuB/cHeney per their culpability initiating the crime?

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 3:49pm
Lets get transparent by all means...

Posted by hsuBfools at 04/22/2009 @ 4:09pm
I tend not to adhere to any religion.... but if there is a devil, he is Dick Cheney!

Please allow me to introduce myself I"m a man of wealth and taste Ive been around for a long, long year Stole many a mans soul and faith And I was round when Jesus Christ Had his moment of doubt and pain Made damn sure that Pilate Washed his hands and sealed his fate Pleased to meet you Hope you guess my name But whats puzzling you Is the nature of my game.....

Posted by petalumadedhed at 04/22/2009 @ 5:04pm
cheney's assertion that the torture was "successful" is specious. If being successful is the criterion for human behavior then piracy,kidnapping,and terrorism must be acceptable since each is sometimes successful....Give us some credit! the U.S. executed japanese soldiers for waterboarding our soldiers in WWII did it make any difference whether or not the japanese efforts were "successful"??? cheney and cohorts felt so guilty for ignoring warnings by and about Al Qaeda they became determined it would never happen again no matter what it took. the irony is that cheney and Co. have more than probably created more new and totally committed terrorists than Bin laden ever could have. In fact if you check the bio of bin laden's second in command he didn't become radicalized and totally commited until tortured in jail in egypt. facts ain't funny DICK!

Posted by budmurray at 04/22/2009 @ 5:44pm
If the truth is told, important people will start screaming! We can't have that! Cheney is calling the administration's bluff.

Posted by debrae at 04/22/2009 @ 5:53pm
I'm late for the party.

When the truth is presented to you, you immediately respond with the classic "Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil, and See no Evil" closed minded response. Maybe you should pick up the pipe.. Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 09:25am

..from the other thread on marijuana legalization...

So.... did anti inhale? Inquiring minds wanna know. Posted by ficheye at 04/17/2009 @ 6:04pm

too much and too often Posted by antisocialist at 04/17/2009 @ 9:45pm

Darth Cheney is a lot like Filch in the Harry Potter movies when he said "They took out the dungeons... gawd I miss the screamin'..."

Such a sadly divided nation.

Posted by ficheye at 04/22/2009 @ 6:42pm
Whoops, forgot. *wink* (fancy pageant walking) "you betcha" That do it for ya? LOL Posted by schnellerheinz at 04/22/2009 @ 3:08pm

Sometimes I think CHERMAK actually IS Sarah Palin.

It's possible that he finally put me on ignore. Ahh, the blissful silence. It was fun while it lasted.

Posted by ficheye at 04/22/2009 @ 10:38pm
"What concerns me is mob voice of the far left calling angrily for a 21st century witch hunt. Only this time they are targeting the people who were defending them against people who would kill them if they had the opportunity.

That is what is so stupid about the left. Their anger is directed at the people defending them instead of the people that want to kill them." - Fucktard

I think that witch hunt you refer to is actually the wheels of justice slowly creaking into action after many years of disuse and abuse.

No, the prior administration targeted the little guys at the bottom of the food chain, labeled them bad apples, and threw them to the dogs. I'm talking about going after the real mob: the Bush crime family. Rumsfeld. Feith. Cheney. Rice. Pearl.

Get it straight - defying the geneva convention and the US constitution with torture gives you inadmissable, unreliable information while completely destroying the credibility of our nation - and rightly so. We used to criticize the USSR for such tactics. We have become what we beheld. Your defense of criminal torture is disgusting.

Does torture save lives? I'm sorry - that's classified (= hell no).

And if Cheney is your definition of the best VP in history, I think you should consider stepping away from they pipe yourself.

This isn't a witch hunt. Simulated drowning sounds like the witch hunt to me. We're out for justice and the rule of law, hereafter referred to as the American Way.

Posted by fairinheight511 at 04/22/2009 @ 10:42pm
"That is what is so stupid about the left. Their anger is directed at the people defending them instead of the people that want to kill them."

so let's break this "logic" down:

when cheney and rice authorized torture (we now know this to be true, as of this morning), they transgressed domestic and international law for the sake of "defending" their country against "the people that (sic) want to kill them."

torture is patently illegal under domestic and international law, and has been used by numerous enemies of ours (whom we prosecuted, forced hard labor upon, and even executed) to justify protecting THEIR people.

so, cheney and rice did precisely what our enemies did. and what they all did was illegal.

BUT, we shouldn't bother with prosecutions because........we're american, and we don't do the really bad types of torture, just 'torture-lite'. we're the good guys, you know. whereas china, germany and japan? they were the bad guys.

as you can see, this "logic" has so many gaping holes that even the most dim witted logician can eviscerate it. and that "dim witted logician" would be the Great Reverand Antisocialist!

Posted by darladoon at 04/22/2009 @ 11:28pm
what is so amazing to me is the sheer number of people defending torture in our media! and by "defending" i also include people who are opposed to prosecutions.

there are NO good arguments against prosecutions, unless of course you think that the geneva conventions, the constitution and the convention against torture are documents that the united states can ignore as it sees fit.

if you think these ARE documents which the united states can selective embrace/ignore, then why should anyone take you seriously?

the law is the law. there is no ambiguity about what the united states did.

torture = A

A = illegal (seriously fucking illegal)

cheney and rice authorized A

ergo, cheney and rice authorized something seriously fucking illegal

ergo, cheney and rice go to jail

Posted by darladoon at 04/22/2009 @ 11:34pm
can anyone here dispute my logic (with a straight face, besides the stupendously deranged antisocialist)?

Posted by darladoon at 04/22/2009 @ 11:35pm
Darla, lay down the pipe and step back.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/22/2009 @ 08:51am

To use a cheap shot like that to attempt to undermine a relatively cogent and well thought out comment is typical of a closed and locked mind.

When the truth is presented to you, you immediately respond with the classic "Hear no Evil, Speak no Evil, and See no Evil" closed minded response.

Maybe you should pick up the pipe..

Posted by chaoszen at 04/22/2009 @ 09:25am

No, I call it like it is. When Darla suggests that this logic could be extended to those in US prisons, she is again demonstrating the empty-headed thinking that is typical of many on the far left.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/23/2009 @ 10:38am
Rather than respond to each individually since I'm out of town, I will summarize again:

1. There was no torture. The left is making an assumption without a basis in fact. The techniques used were clearly less than that of actual torture. But as I've said many times, the left prefers to label everything beyond polite conservation with tea and crumpets to be cruel and unusual punishment-therefore torture.

2. Cheney will ultimately be judged as the greatest VP in our history through the time he served as VP (and given how pathetic Biden is, through Biden's term).

3. This indeed is actually beyond a witch hunt.

I believe we are seeing the beginning of a new "Stalinist" style purge in this country by the left.

I don't think Obama personally has this aim, but he is being pressured by the far left that controls his presidency to take this route.

The radical left in this country believe they need to take advantage of this moment to kill or imprison anyone who represents a threat to their goal of making this a marxist/socialist 3rd world country.

It's one reason that I'm on the road now. I'm speaking to churches about this threat and how to prepare for the Stalinist persecution this has already begun.

It matters not to me that many will mock these words. But I'm open and transparent and I always speak my mind. America's destruction has begun and I weep that what was once a beacon of light is about to become a pit of darkness.

Posted by antisocialist at 04/23/2009 @ 10:46am
hey, 'antisocialist', your buffoonery is showing.

Posted by besserwisser at 04/23/2009 @ 10:46am
Posted by antisocialist at 04/23/2009 @ 10:46am //The radical left in this country believe they need to take advantage of this moment to kill or imprison anyone who represents a threat to their goal of making this a marxist/socialist 3rd world country.

And your basis for asserting that those on the left are looking to "kill or imprison anyone..." is .....???

//America's destruction has begun and I weep that what was once a beacon of light is about to become a pit of darkness.

In your attempts to enlighten people while you're on the road, are you also planning to include just when this "beacon" actually started to dim? Based on the last election, it's probably not a stretch to suggest that a majority of people clearly think it was about 8 years ago.

And Obama's current approval rating--here in the US as well as abroad--suggests a hugely contrarian point of view; that is, the beacon is only now beginning to brighten again.

Hallelujah!!

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/23/2009 @ 12:22pm
I'm speaking to churches about this threat and how to prepare for the Stalinist persecution this has already begun. Posted by antisocialist at 04/23/2009 @ 10:46am

Larry, I think that you may have to check in at the clinic. You have a classic apocalyptic mindset.

Why ALL the problems are now being laid at the doorstep of progressives is just lunatic fringe thinking. Stalinist persecution? There isn't even any parallel. The inference seems to be that in 100 days this administration has brought about the end of our nation (almost). Modern christians have co-opted almost every teaching of christ to fit their insular agenda.

Just for kicks, I invite you, dear readers, to go to this site, http://edictsofnancy.blogspot.com/

Here, a religious nut job supreme, Nancy, tells of of the 'treasonous agenda of vegetarianism and homosexuality'. It's enjoyable in it's utter madness and maybe, at last, someone who larry can agree with.

Posted by ficheye at 04/23/2009 @ 12:56pm
America is here to stay and getting better every day. Posted by snowball666 at 04/23/2009 @ 2:21pm

Snowy, what can we do to help this guy? His last couple of postings seem to show that he's in need of help. Post traumatic stress is really possible with anti.

Here's a guy who admittedly smoked a ton of dope, then designed cluster bombs, was employed by the military in other, darker occupations which required a security clearance, then got god and became a pastor, as if to find some solace, even forgiveness in Jesus. And through Jesus (who dwells within a restrictive definition of existence and meaning) he now justifies the continued killing of people with weapons of his own design, torture, believes Dick Cheney to be the greatest Vice President in history... need I go on? Then there's the weeping part. Does he weep about the collateral damage he's inflicted on children and others with unexploded ordinance?

He's like the pastor in 'The Omega Man'.( "I reveal my inmost self!!") Every week there is something new to add to his profile, and it's freakin' me out dude...

Posted by ficheye at 04/23/2009 @ 3:20pm
One thing that might help anti deal with his weeping (which appears--at first blush-- a bit disingenuous, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt for a bit) is to ask himself how he thinks Jesus would look upon waterboarding. (In light of the inhumanity we're discussing here, I'm sure Jesus is weeping now, too.)

If he's honest, I suspect he'll have a difficult time reconciling his thinking with Christian ideology.

Posted by liberated_liberal at 04/23/2009 @ 3:42pm
hey, 'antisocialist', your buffoonery is showing. Posted by besserwisser at 04/23/2009 @ 10:46am | ignore this person | warn this person

now there's a handle I can relate to.

allesbesserwisser

Posted by emile duBois at 04/24/2009 @ 09:25am
I and my family have given blood and treasure for the right to torture Posted by antisocialist at 04/21/2009 @6:34pm

Posted by emile duBois at 04/24/2009 @ 09:37am

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Cheney Urges Transparency for Obama at 100 Days

posted by Ari Melber on 04/21/2009 @ 10:49am

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Cheney Urges Transparency for Obama at 100 Days

posted by Ari Melber on 04/21/2009 @ 10:49am

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