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RedditThe three-judge panel charged with reviewing the votes cast in the tightly-contested Minnesota Senate race between Republican incumbent Norm Coleman and Democratic-Farmer-Labor Party challenger Al Franken has declared a winner in the race.
"Franken received the highest number of lawfully cast ballots in the Nov. 4, 2008 general election," concluded the judges, who determined that the challenger was entitled to a certificate of election that will clear the way for him to be seated in the Senate.
The ruling came after a review of disputed ballots, which the Coleman camp had demanded be counted, turned out to favor Franken by a margin of nearly 2-1.
That gave the comedian and author turned candidate a lead of 312 votes in the race for the seat once held by the late Paul Wellstone.
If this was just about identifying the winner, the determination by the judges would be the end of it. After all, the panel did rule that "the overwhelming weight of the evidence indicates that the Nov. 4, 2008, election was conducted fairly, impartially and accurately."
But the top lawyer for the Coleman camp, which has been heavily financed by Republican senators in Washington who have shown no bones about their willingness to drag the count out, dismissed the latest setback for his candidate as "really inconsequential."
Attorney Ben Ginsberg promised an appeal to the Minnesota Supreme Court as the latest in the Coleman team's dead-ender strategy. That appeal must come within 10 days after the three-judge panel -- which was appointed by the high court to resolve the matter -- issues its final order.
But Franken's attorney, Marc Elias, did not appear to be sweating it.
"The problem that former Senator Coleman has is he lost fair and square," explained Elias. "He lost because more people voted for Al Franken than voted for Norm Coleman. No amount of lawyering or sophisticated legal arguments is going to change that."
While Minnesota Secretary of State Mark Ritchie expressed his hope that the Supreme Court's decision might settle things and get his state a second senator after a five month delay, Ginsberg and his paymasters in Washington won't necessarily be giving up. They're sending signals regarding federal appeals that, according to the Minneapolis Star Tribune, could keep the seat vacant for another six months.
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"The overwhelming weight of the evidence indicates that the November 4, 2008, election was conducted fairly, impartially and accurately," the judges wrote. "There is no evidence of a systematic problem of disenfranchisement in the state's election system, including in its absentee-balloting procedures."
Posted by Lillian at 04/13/2009 @ 9:43pm
Thanks for keeping your cool Al and letting this play out. Coleman's toast Waaaahoooooo!
Posted by notsleepy at 04/13/2009 @ 9:57pm
Who specifically has been financing the GOP`s expensive legal team fighting democracy in MN?
Posted by sloper at 04/13/2009 @ 10:23pm
You liberals are always going on and on about victory. Can't you once just be bipartisan? Do the right thing for America, let the loser win.
Posted by winyahn at 04/13/2009 @ 10:23pm
Finally rid of that idiot. Minnesota is a better state. Now we need to impeach Governor Interstate Bridge Collapse.
Posted by Milhaus at 04/13/2009 @ 10:37pm
> "The problem that former Senator Coleman has is he lost fair and square," explained Elias. "He lost because more people voted for Al Franken than voted for Norm Coleman. No amount of lawyering or sophisticated legal arguments is going to change that."
Florida, Dec. 2000. 'Nuff said.
Posted by grndrush at 04/13/2009 @ 11:24pm
Might as well seat this certifiable loon with the rest of the leftist loonies.
That way they can just accelerate the destruction of the US instead of delaying for a year or more.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/13/2009 @ 11:34pm
Coleman still has the Minnesota Supreme Court and the U.S.A. Supreme court to pursue this obviously totally irregular lop sided election. Call back when thats over!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/13/2009 @ 11:35pm
Lets see every single election in the USA can go to the SCOTUS:
The Harris Poll. Based on nationwide surveys of adults, conducted over the course of each calendar year.
"Regardless of how you may vote, what do you usually consider yourself: a Republican, a Democrat, an independent, or some other party?"
Year____Repub___Dem ___Ind
2008_____26_____36_____31
2006_____27_____36_____24
2004_____31_____34_____24
But in the final analysis:
ABC News/Washington Post Poll. Feb. 19-22, 2009. N=1,001 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3. LV = likely voters.
"Overall, which party -- the Democrats or the Republicans -- do you trust to do a better job in coping with the main problems the nation faces over the next few years?" Options rotated
Date_________Dem___Repub__Both
2/19-22/09_____56_____30_____3
3/2-5/06 ______ 42_____40_____2
10/02_________39_____51 _____2
In order to delay the oncoming onslaught:
Permanent Democratic Majority: New Study Says Yes: http://tinyurl.com/cpmkca
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 12:55am
Hey Norm Coleman will keep fighting to try to steal this election...right up until he finally goes to jail for the $100,000 bribe he took from Nasser Kazeminy.
Maybe they'll give him cell next to Randy 'Duke" Cunningham.
Posted by Lillian at 04/14/2009 @ 01:33am
Norm's gonna teabag his way through the courts. The longer he goes, the more damage he does to his already irrelevant party. Can you say permanent minority...?
Posted by Yell Fire at 04/14/2009 @ 01:43am
Can you say permanent minority...?
Posted by Yell Fire at 04/14/2009 @ 01:43am | ignore this person | warn this person
So....your are guranteeing the ACORN voter fraud and ACORN U.S.A. census fraud they are about to initiate will seal the deal!
That is no news as the Obamanation of desolation President and Demoncrat congress are already plotting their totalitarian rule as we speak!
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/14/2009 @ 02:34am
Posted by comancheamerican at 04/14/2009 @ 02:34am
"So....your are guranteeing the ACORN voter fraud and ACORN U.S.A. census fraud they are about to initiate will seal the deal!"
I am still trying to work out if you're willfully ignorant or just plain lying. There is not, nor has there ever been, Acorn voter fraud. Acorn is an organisation which promotes voter registration, an act one would think would be beyond reproach in a healthy democracy, and was actively supported by none other than Senator John Mc Cain previous to the last election campaign. In order to achieve this ACORN pay people to go out and register voters. Some of these people decided to augment their income by adding non-existant voters, famously including Mickey Mouse.
This is the bit you apparently find too complicated to understand, so please read it carefully.
ACORN are LEGALLY OBLIGED to hand in the voter registration forms, bogus or not. Just in case you don't understand the terms, they HAVE TO hand in ALL the registration forms or they would be BREAKING THE LAW.
Just because the State receives a Voter Registration form does not mean that the application will be accepted. It gets vetted first.
More importantly, regardless of whether or not "Mickey Mouse" actually gets on the roll, in order for this to become voter fraud somebody would need to turn up to vote, with PHOTO ID.
Posted by audacity at 04/14/2009 @ 04:49am
How many times does he have to win this thing?
Is Franken's candidacy going to be a replay of the Vikings.... they keep winning and winning but they can never win the Big One?
We shall see.
-Wexler
Posted by WWWexler at 04/14/2009 @ 05:31am
Future Headline- 10/31/2014
"Senator Al Franken was finally seated today after an arduous legal battle, he could not be reached for comment however as he was wrapping up the final few days of his re-election bid."
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 06:03am
That is no news as the Obamanation of desolation President and Demoncrat congress are already plotting their totalitarian rule as we speak!----Posted by comancheamerican at 04/14/2009 @ 02:34am
Hey, RIO...if you don't have one, I'm happy to make an escape plan for you?
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 07:50am
ok...what now? does coleman and the repugnants think they will win?
no...
as everyone knows who has half a grain of sense and is honest with themselves (if a republican)...
its about denying anything close to filibuster proofing in the senate so the repugnants can continue their cantankerous, sore loser, obfuscating in the name of their failed ideology.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/14/2009 @ 08:37am
Might as well seat this certifiable loon with the rest of the leftist loonies.
That way they can just accelerate the destruction of the US instead of delaying for a year or more.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/13/2009 @ 11:34pm
Yeah, Larry, because it's the left that's run the country for the last 28 years, correct? The only loons I see are on your side of the political fence, Rev. Or do you actually think that Rio is a paragon of rationality? Hey, Larry, here's reality - you people screwed this country and left it for dead. Your side continues to have the maturity of a toddler who breaks something in full view of everyone and still tries to blame the damage on someone else. Of course, considering the incredible courage shown by all of the keyboard warriors fighting the good fight here instead of fighting your crusade in the Middle East, it's hard to be surprised that, in your "thinking", it's always someone else's fault.
Posted by jmusolino at 04/14/2009 @ 09:08am
Posted by jmusolino at 04/14/2009 @ 09:08am
Actually, jmus...it's not 28 years for Larry. More like 74.
He thinks we've been on the "downhill slide to socialism" since the 1935 Social Security Act!
heheh
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 09:12am
Posted by snowball666 at 04/14/2009 @ 08:07am
This is no longer the same as in 2000, In 2000 the Supreme Court stopped the recount. In Minnesota there has been a full recount. Not only that but almost everytime that Coleman has succeeded in having more ballots included in the count Franken's lead has grown.
If I were a Minnesotan I would be pretty pissed off by now that my state was being deprived of one of its senators because of a partisan game to deny the democrats their filibuster proof majority. Although Gov Pawlenty currently enjoys approval ratings of just over 50% I would be looking for this to slip in the coming months if this drags on.
Posted by audacity at 04/14/2009 @ 09:14am
antisocialist-You right wing loons failed miserably and so we may as well give the other sides loons a shot at it and see if they can do better.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 09:51am
Might as well seat this certifiable loon with the rest of the leftist loonies. Posted by antisocialist at 04/13/2009 @ 11:34pm
Rev, if you want to talk "loonies" check out Tammy Bruce (website). She is of your ilk (the religious right). Listened to her smarmy rhetoric the other day. She believes the Russians and Chinese are in our electrical grid and that the Somali Pirates are Islamic Jihadists who are attacking American ships because Obama is weak on defense and is the new incarnation of Jimmy Carter. She also believes that God will smite the liberals with the help of a nationwide revolution of conservatives against liberals.
She is an ardent supporter of these teabag parties or whatever they are..
Now there is a real "looney".
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 09:57am
If it makes the conservatives feel any better, the fact that Coleman couldn't beat Stuart Smalley by a landslide is, in itself, a political humiliation, and a sure indicator of his fatally weakened political state. He was doomed from the start.
However, I do see the GOP's political desperation in trying to prevent the loss of their filibuster card. It's understandable. Futile, but understandable.
Posted by Benchrest at 04/14/2009 @ 10:22am
Any day the US Congress doesn't make ugliness a capital crime is a good day for Frankin. (And I'm talking about his soul, not his physical appearance.)
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 10:23am
Darin-You know about his soul?You two would have to be quite close in order for that to be the case.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 10:34am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 10:23am
This from a guy who drops F-bombs all the time, talks about his MILFs, and wanting to "do" Palin, all the while reminding us that he goes to church.
You should change your nick to Darin the Big Fat Hypocrite.
Posted by Benchrest at 04/14/2009 @ 10:35am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009
Interesting revelation. I was under the impression that Christians believed ONLY GOD could look into a person's soul?!??!?
Apparently Darin has the same powers as the Lord, huh?
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 10:43am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 10:23am
I can see Darin on the midway of a travelling carnival.
"LADIES AND GENTLEMAN! INTRODUCING! DARIN THE BIG FAT TROLL! WATCH HIM GAZE INTO THE VERY SOUL OF THESE VOLUNTEERS FROM THE AUDIENCE! HE WILL BY POWERS HERETOFOR ONLY RESERVED FOR GOD HIMSELF REVEAL THE UGLINESS INHERENT IN THEIR VERY SOULS!"
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 11:06am
Oh right...you guys flip-flop any time the need arises.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/14/2009 @ 08:07am
That is the whole deal in a brief description.
If anybody wants a list of recent poltical flip flops from the party of "concrete principles", just ask. You know me, willing to provide.
For a teaser, look up "Family Values" and " Levi Johnston" or "Newt Gingrich divorce" or "Rev Haggard forgiven".
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:13am
Yep, the conservative republican candidate lost to a comedian. Again and again.
But, I am sure the cons think Coleman is doing what is "best for America" keeping the duly elected Senator from being seated as dictated by law.
Laws are for the small people.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:15am
Yep, the conservative republican candidate lost to a comedian. Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:15am
Why is everyone demeaning comedians in order to take a cheap shot at the repugnants?
Hell, I would vote for Doug Stanhope for Senator in Arizona if I could or he was running...
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 11:26am
He thinks we've been on the "downhill slide to socialism" since the 1935 Social Security Act!
heheh
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 09:12am
And it seems you've never been able to counter that statement, except to make snide remarks.
Why don't you document how my statement is wrong.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:27am
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:27am
how about we have been the worlds economic leader since WWII? That does not preclude being "socialist", but it sure could mean that it is not as bad as you would like to believe.
I will ask you the question I asked Darin: Please list the countries of the world that do not have any form of socialism.
He came up with Somalia.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:32am
"Why is everyone demeaning comedians in order to take a cheap shot at the repugnants"
Sorry if I unintentionally demeaned comedians. I am an amateur comedian myself.
The point is, the so-called "moral and fiscal grown-ups" cannot defeat a junior senator or a comedian. That would make me sit up and question the "leadership". If I belonged to a party.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:35am
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:27am
Larry, what would be the point?
Again, you are an ABJECT laissez-faire capitalist, who see NO difference between Soviet Communism and Roosevelt's New Deal. There is no "liberalism" to you...just your way or "socialism".
It'd be like trying to discuss with a abject, flat-out pacifist the idea of just war.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 11:42am
We spend too much time trying to attach labels to everything and not enough time trying to solve the problems that face us.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 11:45am
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 11:45am
Not "problems".
"creative opportunities" are what we have before us.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:47am
"We spend too much time trying to attach labels to everything and not enough time trying to solve the problems that face us."----Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 11:45am
Better late than never, huh, I'M?
"You are a right wing propagandist as anyone who reads your stuff knows."----Posted by I'M NOBODY 03/19/2007 @ 12:25pm
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 11:52am
Again, you are an ABJECT laissez-faire capitalist, who see NO difference between Soviet Communism and Roosevelt's New Deal. There is no "liberalism" to you...just your way or "socialism".
It'd be like trying to discuss with a abject, flat-out pacifist the idea of just war.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 11:42am
I've never said that I see no difference between Soviet communism, and FDR's New Deal. They are variations of marxism
And as usual, you have no argument to counter that the US has steadily moved towards marxist socialism over the past 100 years.
Progressive Income Tax
Excessive unconstitutional Govt controls that reduce liberty- OSHA, EPA,
Govt forced tax theft to fund unconstitutional expansions of govt control in education, healthcare, and retirement.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:54am
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 10:34am
Posted by Benchrest at 04/14/2009 @ 10:35am
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 10:43am
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 11:06am
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:32am
Wow! My little drive-by really rattled some cages.
To those who think my comments are hypocritcal, well, you've got a point. I'm fairly hideous.
But since attacking a person's physical appearance is such a cheap shot, I thought I'd throw in the "soul" comment.
This produced additional accusations of hypocrisy, because it is assumed I am a typical Christian who believes his "soul" "goes" to "heaven". Apparently, this belief is inconsistent with dropping an occasional f-bomb along the way.
Well, I don't see the hypocrisy because I don't subscribe to litteral interpretations of religous beliefs. I understand them, I just don't believe them.
My "experiences" with Franken involve seeing him on SNL; reading a couple of his books, and reading the occasional news story of him from the campaign trail, like when he takled a heckler.
Franken strikes me as being in a perpetual state of exasperation: If only people would just recognize how stupid they were and would just accept Franken's belief the world would be so much better. But people don't do that and it makes him angry, and hateful, and resentful, and bitter. (Well, no shit. Of course if everyone held the same beliefs there wouldn't be any conflict. Human nature dictates there will always be different beliefs.)
That's why I believe his "soul" is ugly.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 11:58am
One wonders if the Republicans in Minnesota had anything to do with the death of a beloved senator, as it appears that they hate democracy so much that they would go to any length and do anything to grab power.
They lost and will only continue to lose by displaying this bad behavior.
Posted by Ecimino at 04/14/2009 @ 12:00pm
antisocialist-Protecting humans at the workplace and protecting the environment limits freedom?That makes as much sense as to say that laws against robbery limit freedom.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 12:04pm
I find it laughable that these Right Wing losers are complaining about "stolen elections" after the 2000 Florida/Supreme Court abomination and the 2004 Ohio voter fraud incidents that allowed George W. Bush be elected and re-elected to further destroy our economy and our standing in the world. Talk about a party of whiners! Go home Norm Coleman, where you belong. Congratulations Al! At least you will be adding some much needed wit to the Washington scene.
Posted by vlhamilton at 04/14/2009 @ 12:19pm
HEY ANTISOCIALIST:
No one has done more to erode the freedoms, liberties and rights of choice than Dubya during the last eight years.
I am a gun toting Democrat, a disabled Viet Nam Veteran and sick and tired of the Fascists Neo-Cons stealing my country. Historically Democrats who served our country as poiticians have also served our country in the militray at a rate of 5-1 over the Republicans. Democrats have also been champions of the consitution unlike the most recent administration.
The Neo-Cons have lost the right to lead and this issue with Franken/Coleman is a microcosim of Republican ignorance, sense of entitlement and false righteousness.
Bucko
Posted by mbuck at 04/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
antisocialist-Protecting humans at the workplace and protecting the environment limits freedom?That makes as much sense as to say that laws against robbery limit freedom.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 12:04pm
Of course it does and is an unconstitutional usurption of power by Congress.
Congress has no authority to legislate workplace standards; not safety, not wages.
Nor do they have any authority to impose environmental restrictions.
And when you stop letting people and companies make free will choices, you are restricting liberty.
Before you go off on my last statement, I will answer pro actively.
Regarding homosexual marriage; I have only objected to the use of the word marriage, not the right of states to allow whatever kind of civil contracts between individuals that the states wish to offer. So, my clash on that issue is not about liberty, but on the use of what I am convinced by history to be a religious word that has been adopted by govt.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 12:28pm
"Congress has no authority to legislate workplace standards; not safety, not wages.
Nor do they have any authority to impose environmental restrictions. "
The Supremes disagree with you.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 12:35pm
"Coleman still has the Minnesota Supreme Court and the U.S.A. Supreme court to pursue this obviously totally irregular lop sided election. Call back when thats over!"
-ComaUNamerican, 04/13, 11:35pm
It is clear. COMA-UN-AMERCAN is, by his stated beliefs, now obligated to go forward to the Minnesota Suprreme Court and show the justices the long suppressed evidence that COMA-UNAMERICAN possesses & that is air-tight proof positive that the scumbag soreloser Cole-No-Man "somehow" attracted more votes than Al. The issue is so important that NATION readers should be willing to take up a collection so that COMA can reach Saint Paul, MN with his message & his evidence that is 100% certain of Cole-No-Man's "victory" even when every other venue that the soreloser has whined toward for the past 6 fucking months has summarily REJECTED AS WRONG.
Remember that these are the same grunting CRO-MAG nobodies who insist that:
* Al Gore's real name is "Emmanuel Goldstein".
* The Re-Education Camps are now starting to be filled up, as Obama's storm troopers vacuum people from the pews & into barbed-wired camps. It is all happening just as metrosexual multi-millionaire Man-of-the People Glenn Beck has visioned.
* The 4 million Iraqis who have became refugees after George W Loser failed to govern Iraq as well as the brutal dictator had for decades are really just...on vacation & revelling in their freedoms.
* David Koresh & Warren Jeffs are legit religious leaders, bringing new glory to their compounds.
* Valerie Plame used to waltz around all day in public with a sandwich board that said "I am a CIA paper pusher with no involvement whatsoever in classified ops".
* Climate Change exists only in the writings of Emmanuel Goldstein & his 1000s of captive scientients.
Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 04/14/2009 @ 12:38pm
I will ask you the question I asked Darin:
Please list the countries of the world that do not have any form of socialism.
He came up with Somalia.
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 11:32am
I think you may confused my response with one Darin. Not there's anything wrong with that sort of thing...
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 12:43pm
antisocialist-Any time you stop a human from making a choice you are limiting that humans freedom,but does that mean that we do away with all laws that protect humans, as you suggest that we do?An anarchist would say yes,but most of us would not agree with you.Marriage has never been a word that applied exclusively to religious people and many religious people have used the word marriage to mean a civil union and you are never going to get anyone to start to separate between those joined by civil union and those joined by a religious ceremony.Both have received the same marriage license and both have always been called married by everyone and that is just the way it is and always will be.
Posted by i'm nobody at 04/14/2009 @ 12:46pm
I've never said that I see no difference between Soviet communism, and FDR's New Deal. They are variations of marxism.-----Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:54am
No difference, just both "marxism".
Yeah, you really disputed my point with THAT one, Larry....LOL
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 12:56pm
That's why I believe his "soul" is ugly.----Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 11:58am
Yet, you would see NONE of that in a Rush Limbaugh or a Michael Savage or a Mark Levin or criticize it.
So your view on "ugly souls" is simply based on your partisan political ideology!
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 12:58pm
Posted by snowball666 at 04/14/2009 @ 12:33pm
Posted by crabwalk at 04/14/2009 @ 12:35pm
Remember, Larry REALLY believes in a return to 19th Century labor laws and conditions...upto and including 10 year olds working in coal mines with NO safety requirements!
William Polk on Afghanistan posted by Katrina vanden Heuvel on 03/26/2009 @ 12:09pm
http://www.thenation.com /blogs/edcut/421547/ william_polk_on_afghanistan?rel=hpbox
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 1:00pm
I once listened to Al Franken's 'Rump Limppaw is a Big Fat Liar' audio of the book like 5-6 time on a drive down from Boston. And even during the 6th listen-- I was laughing and mad at the same time. Great orator.
I think Al will give a new, interesting and more honest voice to the political discussion a la Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert. Where the youth are getting it and the repubs are losing it.
Icing on the cake.
YUM.
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 1:01pm
Perhaps instead of debating how long we have been on a movement toward socialism, we should debate the effects of socialism upon the country.
There are two sides to every issue.
Are the effects of socialism really beneficial, or are they harmful? Or can they be both?
Should we go that route - at least in part - or totally anti-socialistic?
One argument against socialism is that of "Government owning and/or dictating the actions of businesses."
Unfortunately, what neo-capitalism have given us is exactly the opposite: "Businesses owning and/or dictating the actions of government."
The problem there is that "We the people" are nowhere in the latter equation.
If "socialism" is about the society, and "capitalism" is about the capital, one might consider that the decision is obviously one of character. Or "soul," as some here might put it.
For those who would bring "soul" into the equation, a rhetorical question to ponder: "Which one should the followers of Jesus Christ support?" An economic principle where the dollar is the false god, or one where we help the least fortunate in our society?
Can anyone"turn the tables" on their convictions without seeing two or more sides to every argument?
Posted by ThomasPained at 04/14/2009 @ 1:02pm
And then you wonder why you can't attract people into voting for your Upton Sinclair novel of a world.
"You people who don't like being poisoned are just a bunch of Marxist wussies!" - Anti
Posted by snowball666 at 04/14/2009 @ 12:33pm
I'm not concerned about "attracting people" into voting for my views. And they certainly wouldn't be the socialist vision of Upton Sinclair.
I'm concerned with my being consistent to my values and my right to express them.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:12pm
Clearly, Franken won and clearly Coleman is stalling for purely political reasons. But this whole mess could have been avoided Election Night if MN had adopted instant runoff voting (IRV), whereby the votes cast in favor of marginal candidates are reallocated based on the second choice of their voters, expressed at the time the ballot is cast on Election Night. Runoffs and recounts are a poor substitute for IRV which is the fastest and most democratic (with a small "d") way to resolve close elections.
Posted by slaskin at 04/14/2009 @ 1:15pm
"If "socialism" is about the society, and "capitalism" is about the capital, one might consider that the decision is obviously one of character. Or "soul," as some here might put it.
For those who would bring "soul" into the equation, a rhetorical question to ponder: "Which one should the followers of Jesus Christ support?"
Posted by ThomasPained at 04/14/2009 @ 1:02pm
Excellent point, but if you thought new con repubs were Christian-- that was a big mistake.
You'd make better headway understanding that new con repubs are more closely aligned with Satanist than any other kind of semi-religious organized lobby.
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 1:16pm
I've never said that I see no difference between Soviet communism, and FDR's New Deal. They are variations of marxism.-----Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 11:54am
No difference, just both "marxism".
Yeah, you really disputed my point with THAT one, Larry....LOL
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 12:56pm
you really are obsessed with utilizing the logical fallacy of Bulverism.
You just keep repeating a lie and think that makes it true.
You even repost my quote which assumes and states there is a difference. both can be marxist without being the same.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:26pm
How paid actors run a make believe government
Act nuts, crazy, greedy, corrupt and over-sexed so the self-absorbed majority may pursue selfish emotions thinking all our problems are caused by bad politicians.
Posted by Alabama.John at 04/14/2009 @ 1:35pm
I am a gun toting Democrat, a disabled Viet Nam Veteran and sick and tired of the Fascists Neo-Cons stealing my country. Historically Democrats who served our country as poiticians have also served our country in the militray at a rate of 5-1 over the Republicans. Democrats have also been champions of the consitution unlike the most recent administration.
The Neo-Cons have lost the right to lead and this issue with Franken/Coleman is a microcosim of Republican ignorance, sense of entitlement and false righteousness.
Bucko
Posted by mbuck at 04/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
I respect and honor your service but it's a shame that you didn't take advantage of the GI bill like I did when I returned and learned about our constitution and our history. Perhaps if you had, you wouldn't make such a juvenile and badly misinformed posting.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:39pm
...a juvenile and badly misinformed posting. Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:39pm
"a microcosim of Republican ignorance, sense of entitlement and false righteousness."
Yep, nailed it.
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 1:56pm
You just keep repeating a lie and think that makes it true.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:26pm
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Posted by frosty zoom at 04/14/2009 @ 2:17pm
In any war between Socialists and Capitalists. We Socialists will win. We are leaner, cleaner, smarter and more numerous. And we will cook and share the juicy cooked corpse of the Capitalist Pig at a luau celebration dedicated to the resurrection of the Middle Class...
(Vegetarians and Vegans can eat sprout and avacado sammiches lathered with Veganaise :)
Posted by chaoszen at 04/14/2009 @ 2:20pm
In a true democracy a representative is seated until his/her successor relieves him/her of Office. In the prevailing circus taking place in Minnesota no incumbent has been unseated therefore no successor has been elected. Does this mean that the incumbant is still picking up the cheque? Good job if you can get it! I would't give up either, to hell with the Courts and the Law and the Electors and Ethics and Decency and Hooray for Lawyers!
Posted by esthermem at 04/14/2009 @ 2:20pm
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 1:26pm
What is the "lie", Larry?
I said you see no difference between Soviet Communism and FDR New Dealism and YOU SAID "both varients on marxism".
Therefore in your mind, they are BOTH "marxism" and not essentially different. And since you endorse a 19th Century view of capitalism and Federal oversight, anything OTHER than that is at the least socialism or marxism (since you use those terms interchangeably).
Ergo, what I said about you is right.
Your problem seems to be when I strip away all the rhetorical flourish...or state SIMPLY what your beliefs are...and they sound SO outrageous and out of the mainstream (even the mainstream of conservatism) that EVEN YOU object.
Problem is...you still embrace them.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 2:22pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 04/14/2009 @ 2:17pm
fortunately, that determination is not made by you.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:03pm
I thought this was an election, not a butting of heads for control! This state isn't represented due to one big idiot that wanted a recount, and got, but refuses to believe HE LOST!!! He should be fined and it should stop right now. No more appeals, blacklist him in the newspaper. This should be an embarrassment to the GOP in so many ways I can't even count them. Loser, go home and let the state be represented as they voted. You must have done a lousy job for at least 50% of the people and that, my friend, says it all. GOP, you need to pull your head out. As time goes by, you look worse than before and just don't learn much. Go back to school and learn about elections!
Posted by greenriverkate at 04/14/2009 @ 3:06pm
I said you see no difference between Soviet Communism and FDR New Dealism and YOU SAID "both varients on marxism".
Therefore in your mind, they are BOTH "marxism" and not essentially different. And since you endorse a 19th Century view of capitalism and Federal oversight, anything OTHER than that is at the least socialism or marxism (since you use those terms interchangeably).
Ergo, what I said about you is right.
Your problem seems to be when I strip away all the rhetorical flourish...or state SIMPLY what your beliefs are...and they sound SO outrageous and out of the mainstream (even the mainstream of conservatism) that EVEN YOU object.
Problem is...you still embrace them.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 2:22pm
Wrong again. to someone in a remote African village, coming to North America they would probably have an initial impresion that Canada and the US are the same kind of nations. Yet, you have to look further to understand there are many significant differences.
So with my comments. Stalinist Russia was nothing like FDR's New Deal. Yet they both relied upon marxism for their root direction.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:08pm
"fortunately, that determination is not made by you."----Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:03pm
He's just "offering an opinion, not judging", Larry. Anything wrong with that?
"Yet they both relied upon marxism for their root direction."---Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:08pm
Larry, you keep telling me I'm "Wrong"...and then agree with me.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 3:11pm
Mask, antiso, is speaking new con tongues... doubt if he understands what is coming out of his own mouth.
That's why he uses other people from foreign lands to try to explain what he doesn't understand he means.
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 3:21pm
"Yet they both relied upon marxism for their root direction."---Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:08pm
Larry, you keep telling me I'm "Wrong"...and then agree with me.
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 3:11pm
There are days and subjects where you will never acknowledge you are pursuing a strawman. this is one of them.
But try this one little test. Simply provide a quote from me where I said that Stalin's communism was the same form of marxism as FDR's New Deal?
It doesn't exist because I've never said it and don't believe it. FDR never murdered 10's of millions of people in his country to begin with.
Posted by antisocialist at 04/14/2009 @ 3:44pm
Maybe Coleman will finally accept it?
Franken won fair and square!
We had to accept a tough loss in Florida in 2000 - now it's their turn.
Posted by FDR43 at 04/14/2009 @ 3:49pm
Mask,
Maybe antisocialist is right. Maybe one is either Karl Marx, or Ronald Reagan. All there is, is either pure laissez-fair capitalism or Marxist-Leninist communism.
Now that I have that straight, I guess I must decide between the two.
Posted by FDR43 at 04/14/2009 @ 3:51pm
Of course, this either or black and whole dichotomy totally marginalizies liberalism (maybe not coincidently).
Posted by FDR43 at 04/14/2009 @ 3:57pm
Not to mention moderate conservatism, social democracy, democratic socialism, and a dozen other point on the ideological spectrum!
None of those less than pure ideologies actually exist!
Posted by FDR43 at 04/14/2009 @ 3:59pm
A Ford Pinto and a VW Beetle are two similarly different cars, but both totally labeled cars just the same that are different, but serve similar functions to different people that have the same needs or wants, but in different ways; covering the same roads; at different speeds; with the same gas; at different costs;...etc.
See, I'm just saying they are the same in different yet similar ways. So if you were to pick one over the other, it'd make the same significant difference.
Well, unless you're rear-ended with just the right impact...
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 4:07pm
Posted by snowball666 at 04/14/2009 @ 09:27am | ignore this person | warn this person
its pathetic. how much longer can they obfuscate? i suppose its just THAT bad for them.
its funny. things have changed here in the dystopic future. the average a-political "go along with the crowd" types who four years ago were going along with the satano-aynrando party...
are almost all on OUR side!!! LOL!!! WE GOT THE MARCHING MORON VOTE NOW!!!! YAY!!!
lol...
so the repugnants are screwed "blue"...
"gotta hold on...gotta block and obfuscate...til hopefully obama falls flat on his face and everything truly goes to hell in a handbasket..."
wow...what a strategy!!!
at least i'm looking forward to mr. franken's comments once he gets sworn in. he's hilarious.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/14/2009 @ 4:43pm
Posted by mbuck at 04/14/2009 @ 12:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
welcome to the blog pits of hell. nice post.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/14/2009 @ 4:45pm
Posted by mbuck at 04/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
Anti is a lost cause. I hate to say it but if someone can only see black and white it is nearly impossible to communicate with them, much less argue a point.
Posted by !immutable at 04/14/2009 @ 4:57pm
Yeah without the various grays in the gray scale, one cannot judge distance; there is no sense of perspective.
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 5:15pm
And it's really annoying to the point of:
http://tinyurl.com/cpgx6q
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 5:20pm
Posted by hsuBfools at 04/14/2009 @ 5:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
i'm looking at it and trying to ignore the "NAKED: Padma Lakshmi, Chelsea Handler And Eliza Dushku Strip For Allure's Nude Issue (PHOTOS)" ad on the right...
ah, the huffpost!!!
but yeah...looking at those palin rallies a few months back i KNEW this was coming.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/14/2009 @ 5:27pm
Chelsea, asked about her favorite body part, said: "My boobs are good. They're real and perky."
and i bet she's voting democrat now! yay!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 04/14/2009 @ 5:31pm
Posted by PhilMcCrevice<blockquote>Remember that these are the same grunting CRO-MAG nobodies who insist that:... </blockquote>
Why are you insulting Cro-Magnons?
It would make more sense to refer to Neandertals.
Cro-Magnon males averaged 6-6" and had brains much larger than ours. (...Actually, Neandertals also had bigger brains, come to think of it.)
Which makes me ask, What was the point of using that term?
Posted by SteveGinIL at 04/14/2009 @ 5:59pm
It appears to me that part of the problem is there is no penalty for bringing an appeal when you have practically no chance of winning. An obvious remedy for this would be to make the loser responsible for the winner's legal fees. Coleman would be perfectly at liberty to take this all the way to SCOTUS so long as it's understood that if he lost he would have to not only pay his own legal fees but also Franken's. May give him pause.
Posted by audacity at 04/15/2009 @ 03:18am
That's why I believe his "soul" is ugly.----Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/14/2009 @ 11:58am
Yet, you would see NONE of that in a Rush Limbaugh or a Michael Savage or a Mark Levin or criticize it.
So your view on "ugly souls" is simply based on your partisan political ideology!
Posted by Mask at 04/14/2009 @ 12:58pm
I don't listen to Rush, Savage or Levin, who are entertainers. I have listend to Dennis Prager, but while he's conservative, he's nothing like the three you list.
Then there's the whole, "Reps/Cons think Dems/Libs are misguided; Dems/Libs think Reps/Cons are evil."
Rush parodies the left with songs like, "Barack the magic negro." (Which I haven't ever heard, but I hear it's funny.)
Franken hates, despises, loathes the right because they are asshole fuckers son-ofa-bitchs... And BUSH!! God he hates that fucker because Bush has detroyed everying good in the world.
That's what I'm talking about.
And Rush doesn't hate the l
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 07:17am
It appears to me that part of the problem is there is no penalty for bringing an appeal when you have practically no chance of winning. An obvious remedy for this would be to make the loser responsible for the winner's legal fees.
Posted by audacity at 04/15/2009 @ 03:18am
You are correct about the problem, but your solution won't work, because it is not Norm Coleman filing suit. The legal entity filing suit is the Sen Norm Coleman Recount foundation or something like that that is going to be bankrupt the second Franken is sworn in. So there will be no legal recourse because Coleman isn't personally liable of the debts of The Sen Norm Coleman Screw Franken Committee or whatever the legal entity's name is.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 07:21am
Coleman has nothing to lose by draging this out. And his supporters appreciate the fact that he is preventing Franken from voting and he is hurting Franken's seniorty by keeping out.
I said months ago that Franken won the most votes on election day.
If you remember the conversation, it had to do with my conjecture that Dems always pick up more votes in the recount because the very dumbest 2% of voters are the ones most likely to spoil their ballots (because they are overwhelmingly illiterate) and these people vote 90+% for Dems.
Then Mask twisted my words and claimed I said all Dems are stupid... yada yada yada, ad infinitum.
I had this debate with my sister and actually researched it. I found about a dozen recounts in the last several decades. There was actually one where the Rep picked up 1 or 2 extra votes and was declared the winner. But there was clearly cheating going on (on the part of the Reps) and I think both candidates got paid the congressional salary or something goofy like that.
But this was the exception that proved the rule.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 07:32am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 07:17am
1st. Interesting that you excuse Limbaugh, Levin, etc. as "entertainers"...but your hatred and "soul analysis" of Franken is based on things he said or wrote...as an entertainer.
2nd. Also interesting that even though you "never listen" to Rush....you know about his parodies and that he "doesn't hate"?!?!!?!?!??
How abut this for a theory, Darin. You're not a "Big Fat Troll"...you're a big fat liar AND hypocrite. Who attacks Franken for doing the same, if LESS, than Limbaugh, who you DO listen to but like to deny so you won't get labelled a "ditto-head"?
Posted by Mask at 04/15/2009 @ 08:16am
Posted by Mask at 04/15/2009 @ 08:16am
Pretty lame attempt to jerk my chain there Mask. You're losing your touch.
1rst. The last book I read was the one where Franken talks about winning a senate seat and impeaching Bush and Cheney between Jan 3, 2009 and Jan 20.
The book was his candidacy; it was his campaign platform. It was not, primarily, entertainment. Would you say Obama's "The Audacity of Hope" was entertainment or campaigning?
**************************************************** quote from Mask "Also interesting that even though you 'never listen' to Rush" ****************************************************
Well the actual quote was, "I don't listen to Rush, Savage or Levin"
You are twisting my words again. I don't smoke. That doesn't mean I have never smoked. In fact, I smoked for a role in a drama class in college. I don't drink. However, in my lifetime I have probably had 6 beers.
I will mayber hear 2 - 4 hours of Rush per year. I don't think that constitutes, "listening to Rush".
The parodies are actually Paul Shanklin. Camile Paglia wrote extensivly on the "Barack the Magic Negro" song. But I've also seen it reference here.
Your attempt to call me a liar and a Ditto head merits a massive, "FAIL"
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 12:51pm
Coleman may not hurt himself (he's a has-been; just doesn't know it yet), but he may be doing huge damage to the image of the Repug party.
Posted by snowball666 at 04/15/2009 @ 08:44am
The SoreLoserman debacle didn't seem to hurt Dems too much. I wouldn't lose any sleep over fallout from Coleman.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 04/15/2009 @ 12:54pm
The author of this piece wrote a first-rate, fantastic, referenceable book on the stolen 2000 Presidential election. It is ironic, given the facts presented in that book, to compare those events with the ones taking place in Minnesota. Me thinks the citizens of that state should be given placards with the message "Sore Loserman" and fill the public appearances of Mr. Coleman until he finally "gives up the ghost."
Posted by dshandy at 04/18/2009 @ 3:24pm