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RedditThis writer has no illusions about US Senator Hillary Clinton, or President Barack Obama, when it comes to the Middle East peace process.
Both the president-elect and his nominee to serve as secretary of state have track records of disappointing rather than leading when it comes to employing the diplomatic and economic muscle of the United States to forge a two-state solution to the enduring conflict between Israel and Palestine.
But, with that said, the moderate character of Clinton's comments to members of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee at a generally friendly confirmation hearing was modestly refreshing.
"As we focus on Iraq, Pakistan and Afghanistan, we must also actively pursue a strategy of smart power in the Middle East that addresses the security needs of Israel and the legitimate political and economic aspirations of the Palestinians," Clinton explained in her opening statement to the committee that seems all but certain to call for her confirmation by the full Senate.
Clinton referred specifically to Israel's assault on the Gaza Strip, which has left hundreds of civilians dead.
The senator said that she and Obama "understand and are deeply sympathetic to Israel's desire to defend itself under the current conditions and to be free of shelling by Hamas rockets." But, she added,"The tragic humanitarian costs (for the people of Gaza) must only increase our determination to seek a just and lasting peace agreement that brings real security to Israel; normal and positive relations with its neighbors; and independence, economic progress and security to the Palestinians in their own state."
No, she is not channeling Dennis Kucinich, Americans for Peace Now or J Street.
But by talking about the need to seek "independence, economic progress and security to the Palestinians in their own state," Clinton set a reasonable tone that at this point comes as something -- just something -- of a welcome relief.
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"that addresses the security needs of Israel and the legitimate political and economic aspirations of the Palestinians"
Wow, from that quote, it's obvious that HRC is sure in the pocket of AIPAC and wants to see the Palestinians exterminated!
or (for the Hard Right side of the fringe)
Wow, from that quote, it's obvious that HRC wants to see Israel destroyed and wants to kiss Hamas' ass!
(Take your pick)
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 1:05pm
Check out blackcoptermedia.com, The new grassroots of politics! The have a great article on the current conflict! Support them by donating! and help them grow!
Posted by thesid at 01/13/2009 @ 1:18pm
PE Obama and Hillary Clinton must think as one on foreign policy and we can't have this notion that we can act alone and dismiss the rest of the world. The Israeli policy is definitely one that needs changing for sure, they cannot be our controllers any longer. Diplomacy must be paramount before military might is an option...no longer must our troops be sent into battle under the guise of "democracy or freedom" as that was Bush's mantra for years. Any war must be a "just" war and have the backing of our allies no more of this going it alone nonsense!!! I have great faith that with our new administration they will have a much better understanding of what going to "war" involves and not be prepared to send our troops into harms way unnecessarily
Posted by Caj at 01/13/2009 @ 1:27pm
This is sure to anger the far left but is good news for those who refuse to allow terrorists to dictate the rights and peace of people.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/13/2009 @ 1:22pm
So I guess you think that Sen Clinton and PE Obama will carry on with Bush's policy in the Middle East? I think you will also find she mentioned diplomacy and the right's of the Palestinian people...you may find that Israel won't have the same bragging rights of owning us that they had with Bush. This policy has not worked being so tied up with Israel and PE Obama and Clinton can see that, the people here and around the world are tired of this constant backing of Israel. So, I wouldn't be too sure that it's going to be business as usual under an Obama administration. If comments on the Obama Gov website is anything to go by people are up in arms about this Israeli policy and want something done about it. We know that the Obama team are really interested in what we have to say and they are getting unindated with comments about that.
Posted by Caj at 01/13/2009 @ 1:57pm
Consider for a moment the fact that leaders such as Saddam Hussein have used poison gas against both other countries and their own citizens, Iran is working on nuclear power (and maybe nuclear weapons) and that everything from the Olympics to embassies are considered legitimate targets. How long will it be before the middle east from the Red Sea to Beirut is poisoned, burned and uninhabitable? Never mind the "one-state" or "two-state" solutions to the problem: will the twenty-first century finally see a "no-state" solution?
Posted by Mistral at 01/13/2009 @ 2:01pm
I suppose in the US, moderation is a banal, blithe, and indirect reference to an elective war of aggression that has killed and injured nearly 5,500 people in a statement which equates those 5,500 casualties to three casualties suffered by the aggressor.
There was no "moderation" in Clinton's little comment. She said nothing at all, she said that nothing will change. We are all witnessing the Israelis admit crimes against humanity and the only thing this insufferable figure said about it was a banal reference to some sort of vague "suffering". Tell that to the little children Israel is happily mass-murdering in Gaza while the US marches in lock-step with them.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:01pm
Besides, Mrs. Clinton will famously say anything at all that she personally believes is what people want to hear if she thinks it will advance her personal career. Nothing she says can be believed or taken at face value.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:02pm
Let's be honest with each other: the strongest praise for Mr. Obama's "middle east team" - which includes the insufferable and dishonest Mrs. Clinton - is coming these days from figures like James Woolsey, William Kristol, Dick Cheney, etc. The burgeoning rightist, business-as-usual Obama administration is nothing anyone with our values should be cheered about, in particular, when it comes Israel-Palestine and the Middle East.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:05pm
The Nation's editors just published five questions for Hillary Clinton, and the first of them is the question of how it is that she will assist in putting Israel on a leash. There is no fundamental hope for change in the context of Israel-Palestine if the Israeli savages can count on getting a blind high and tens of billions of dollars per year in weapons from the US, no matter what. Even during these latest atrocities, the US is rushing shipments of bombs and ammunition to the Israelis. We are loading the weapons the savages use to slaughter the people in Gaza. Without a change in this approach to relating to Israel, there is no hope.
Clearly, Mr. Nichols is not one of The Nation's editors who wrote the five questions, because Mrs. Clinton's answer today to the question The Nation's writers ask her about how to change our relationship to Israel with an eye towards ending these atrocities was "disappointing" in the extreme. Her answer is that there will be no change in our relationship to Israel.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:09pm
I figured out how to solve the Middle Eastern crises...
Get an arena and let all the 'syfriendly' types and 'lvliberty' types fight it to the death...
then kill the winners!
(just kidding guys....heheh)
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:10pm
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:10pm | ignore this person |
I don't know what "type" you think that you have me figured out as but if your are not morally outraged at the hundreds of children Israel has just mass-murdered in the view of the whole world, while the incoming administration and Congress continue to pledge allegiance to further weapons shipments to Israel, I can't comprehend your moral basis. You seem to believe that there is some sort of "middle ground" to be seen here. Well, the casualty toll is 5,500 to 13 and Israel's own newspapers point out the connection of this outrageous slaughter to their imminent national election this February. Such barbarism would never be condoned if any US administration elected to kill and injure several thousand people in mid-October in a presidential election year, which is the exact analogue in the US of what the Israelis are doing.
Perhaps you think there is something to laugh at in this issue?
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:15pm
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 2:15pm
I see you as the "mirror image" type of LVLIB. Someone who supports the extreme position and plays up the actions of those you oppose, plays down (even ignores) the actions of those you support.
Sub "Israel" for "Palestine"..."Likud" for "Hamas"..."deaths of Israelis in pizza parlors" with "deaths of Palestinians in schools"...etc., etc.
There is no difference between you.
And like him, you'd probably support the most extreme "solution". In his case, it's "Let Israel do what they want, support them, even to the point of permanently re-taking Gaza and the West Bank forever and kicking the Palestinians back to Jordan!"...
in your case, like "Cut all aid to Israel, even economic sanctions or blockades, until they agree to whatever demans Hamas delivers at the point of a rocket battery."
Again, no difference...just one end of the extreme.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:23pm
While actions will speak louder than words, Clinton's emphasis on pragmatism and not ideology was encouraging. I have no doubt that the rest of world is demanding an even handed approach. The unbelievable arrogance of Israel and insinuation of its operatives in our politics must be dealt with by strong grassroots political action here at home and abroad.
An illustrative excerpt regarding SOS Ms. Rice and the UN Resolution by PM Ehud Olmert.........
"I said 'get me President Bush on the phone'. They said he was in the middle of giving a speech in Philadelphia. I said I didn't care. 'I need to talk to him now'. He got off the podium and spoke to me.
"I told him the United States could not vote in favour. It cannot vote in favour of such a resolution. He immediately called the secretary of state and told her not to vote in favour."
http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090112/ pl_afp/mideastconflictgazaolmertusrice_newsmlmmd
While this statement by Olmert is apparently being denied by the State Department (anonymously), the fact that Olmert said it is not. Whether fact or fiction, such a statement by Olmert is extremely dangerous to US foreign policy stance and its perception of being in the service of United State interests. If we are to repair our image, we must certainly cast these characters out and stop providing them with the means to carry out their genocidal wars and penchant for self and world destruction, as most recently exemplified by Gaza, Lebanon, and Israel's request for US backing for an attack on Iran.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 2:27pm
'Perhaps you think there is something to laugh at in this issue?' -- syfriendly
A rabbi and an imam walk into a bar:
Rabbi: So Moses comes down from mount Sinai with the Ten Commandments.
Imam: At least this we can agree on.
Rabbi: And then this Palestinian Muslim runs up with a knife and tries to cut his throat...
Imam: Stop right there. That's ridiculous. That was thousands of years ago. It could never have happened.
Rabbi: And why not?
Imam: First of all, there weren't any Muslims in Palestine back then, only Jews --
Rabbi: A-Ha!
Posted by HonestLiberal at 01/13/2009 @ 2:29pm
Well, I do have to admit, what she said sounds pretty good. Still seems to be a little more in favor of or in the direction of Israel, but it's a start in a positive direction towards the people of GAZA/Palestine. Now we will have to wait and see what does actually happen, as you know Actions do speak louder than words! http://enemyartistkristofer.blogspot.com
Posted by kristofeR! at 01/13/2009 @ 2:31pm
The very idea that Olmert thinks he can call the President and speak to him whenever he feels like it and demand we oppose any deal is outrageous!!!! When are people going to wake up and realize that we are just puppets of the Israeli Gov, plain and simple! Time to cut the apron strings with Israel and get a backbone for once, being tied to them has caused nothing but trouble.
Posted by Caj at 01/13/2009 @ 2:34pm
Again, no difference...just one end of the extreme.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
A little difference - 950 Palestinians dead, thousands wounded versus a handful of Israeli. Same thing in Lebanon in 2006.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 2:37pm
Posted by thesid at 01/13/2009 @ 1:18pm
Hey kids!
I saw this article in the guardian the other day and thought "well, that's just crazy". Actually I wasn't surprised, but anyway, I'm sure you've all noticed comments from "thesid" on every blog related to the current situation in Gaza.
www.guardian.co.uk /commentisfree/ 2009/jan/09/israel-foreign-ministry-media
Some of you folks might find this interesting.
Posted by HAL9000 at 01/13/2009 @ 2:49pm
It's too early to tell what direction Obama and HRC will take U.S. policy on Israel/Palestine. But it is disappointing to me to hear the discussion of Israel's occupation of Gaza and the West Bank as if the Palestinians aren't suffering terribly from the blockades and broken economy. I disagree with terrorism as a tool for political change, but Hamas doesn't see their rocket launches as terror, but retaliation. And this isn't about political change, but survival. The U.S, hasn't had a balanced position on this issue since Israel established itself post WWII. We can all agree that Israel has a right to exist as a sovereign state. And Hamas' threats aside, most Palestinians agree, too. We must position U.S. policy on the premise that Palestine has an equal right to a sovereign country and broker not a peace agreement, but a permanent border and recognition. For this, Obama must step on some pretty wealthy Jewish toes here at home. A good start would be to cut back on Israel military weapons support and threaten a complete U.S. weapons cessation unless great strides are taken to stop the bombing and reinstate cross border travel, the freight lines, the airport and stabilize healthcare and essential service deliveries.
Posted by Cannonball at 01/13/2009 @ 3:01pm
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
If you see me as some sort of "mirror image" of this other fellow, you are simply wrong. I also cannot imagine what sort of world it is that you live in mentality wherein someone who condemns nakedly committed human rights violations is somehow on the same plane as someone who apparently issues religious statements in support of a mass murdering statement while otherwise refusing to acknowledge the acts.
There is a huge difference between me and this other fellow. Part of that huge difference is that I, unlike him (and apparently you) can begin to grasp the evil involved in killing and injuring thousands of people to influence an election.
Now, you seem to be good at snide remarks, but, frankly, other than these snide remarks and hideously superficial characterization of people you seem to subscribe to, over the last 2 weeks I have not seen a single post from you that actually candidly addresses the atrocities Israel is committing or the consequences. Maybe these posts are just a form of entertainment for you, a sort of "interactive" TV. Some of us actually have some sort of moral outrage based on a real understanding of human rights. Some of us actually respect the reality and grave severity of what is transpiring in front of us. Some of us aren't here to make snippy characterization of other posters as a form of self-indulgent amusement.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 3:08pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 2:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Mask is color-blind and tone-deaf to the moral issues involved in the slaughter and injuring of 5,500 people to influence an election. These posts are a form of entertainment form, a place where he can convince himself of his own saavy wit in "talking politics" by making snide remarks at others, and banal, superficial characterizations of people around him, people who in turn are in some cases actually operating during each waking hour of these atrocities in a state of stunned moral outrage and shocked conscience. Like many American internet mass media consumers, to Mask these atrocities are just more links to click on, read, and comment on in the comments section of the web log entry. This is might as well be someone's girlfriend's "Facebook" entry he is talking on; the reality of 5,500 murdered and injured people have the same weight and impact on him as someone's latest teriyaki recipe.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 3:14pm
join the blackcoptermedia.com nation.
Posted by thesid at 01/13/2009 @ 3:41pm
Feingold seemed to like her, but we will have to wait and see. I really don't like the expansion of NATO. Europe would have had fewer problems with energy issues, if NATO had not pushed so close to Russia. I think it is become more obvious that energy independence, along with economic independence, would help reduce international tensions. Fences, in the form of tariffs, make good neighbors!
Posted by P. J. Casey at 01/13/2009 @ 3:51pm
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 3:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Intellectualization of genocidal atrocity is either tacit support or shamed denial. There is no scale of justice for either position, and there is no rationalized middle ground for what is taking place in Gaza. Try arguing a hypothetical middle ground for Holocaust, and I think you will find that our intellectualizers and rationalizers will become quite extremist. Who is doing the suffering shouldn't be our moral compass when innocents are being slaughtered, and compassion and outrage are hardly extremist, but rather a most proper empathetic and sympathetic human response, if there is any humanity left in us.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 3:55pm
Any reading of this incident by an someone with a modicum of adult cognizant thinking processes and an understanding of history and politics knows that Olmert was NOT ordering Bush and Rice.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/13/2009 @ 3:49pm
Whether he was ordering Bush/Rice or just asking amounts to the same thing in my book. The fact that he thinks he holds so much clout with our administration is a joke.
Posted by Caj at 01/13/2009 @ 3:59pm
So Mask how precisely is syfriendly playing down or ignoring the actions of Hamas ? Hamas kept the cease fire until Israel broke it by slaughtering Palestinians - in the current fighting 13 Israelis have died , mostly soldiers , most through "friendly" Israeli fire ! , and there have been few injuries , and apart from the annoyance of running into shelters , little disruptions of daily life or comfort from Hamas militant rockets, whereas in Gaza there are literally hundreds of civilians deaths, thousands of civilians injuries, and the complete demolition of civil infrastructure and the absolute terrorizing of the population - now Mask what actions of Hamas have been ignored or played down here concerning this conflict ? Name it or prove yourself as indifferent and callous to the crimes against humanity committed by Israel in this conflict as the most extreme of the anti-ethical Judaism pro-Zionist "end justifies the means" fanatics .
Posted by nonukes at 01/13/2009 @ 3:59pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 2:37pm
Okay, OV, and in the interest of fairness, how many Israelis have died from terrorist attacks?
Or do you not have any interest in that?
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 4:23pm
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 3:14pm
Okay, sy....then tell me in SPECIFIC terms, what your solution is?
And prove me wrong.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 4:24pm
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 4:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Solution to what problem? You've never yourself in front of me acknowledged that any problem exists. As far as I can tell from your writing, you don't see any problem yourself, but you challenge me to solve "the problem" for you.
But I'll indulge you.
There is more than one problem, as I see it. The immediate problem is the barbaric slaughter of Palestinians in Gaza. Positive steps forward on this problem needed to include an absolute refusal of the US presidential administration to to do anything but condemn the Gaza slaughter after began, public statements of condemnation from high-ranking figures in the incoming Obama administration, a condemnation of the slaughter from both houses of Congress, a joint statement of intent on the part of next year's Congressional leadership and Obama himself declaring that Israel's "aid" would be suspend for one year starting in 2009, a demand that Israel recognize the legitimacy of the Palestinian Authority as an authority over both territories and implicitly therefore the promise to respect the outcome of the internationally-monitored Palestinian Authority election that brought Hamas legitimately to power in the PA. Likewise, the US and the UN should have worked together to demand that if Israel complies with the new expectations (on pain of losing its "aid") then Hamas must respect a cease-fire assuming Israel unilaterally withdraws from Gaza and launches no attack. Finally, both the presidential and prime ministerial figures from the PA shall meet with presidential representatives from the US and prime ministerial representatives from Britain on March 1 after the new US presidency is inaugurated and Israel's elections are resolved.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 4:41pm
Okay, OV, and in the interest of fairness, how many Israelis have died from terrorist attacks?
Or do you not have any interest in that?
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 4:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Fairness? Perhaps the question should be how many more will die from terrorist attacks. And lets not forget targeting of US citizens at home and abroad (Mumbai most recently). Or perhaps Europeans. What about continued loss of life in Iraq. Hasn't al Sadr already called for attack on US soldiers in Iraq as revenge for Israel's actions. Wasn't protection of Israel one of the "real" reasons we invaded Iraq?
Post Lebanon 2006, in 2007 Israel reports 14 deaths - 0 injured related to terrorist attacks. In 2008, 41 deaths -230 injured through October reported. I am trying to find the negative correlation between Israel's killing of innocents along with some Hezbollah in Lebanon and the reduction of terrorism related deaths in Israel.
Data obtained by Israeli Foreign Ministry.
And yes, I am concerned about terrorist attacks in Israel. My belief is that Israel's current actions will not bear their intended fruit.....quite the opposite.
The killing of innocents is not eye for eye. We call it collateral damage, others call it terrorism. And, Israel's actions are far beyond simple retaliation. You and I both know they are trying to exterminate Hamas and any support it has in Gaza.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 5:16pm
Rabbi: A-Ha!
Posted by HonestLiberal at 01/13/2009 @ 2:29pm
a "canadian" and an "indian" walk into a bar............
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 5:31pm
To whom it may concern --including One Vote and Sy:
Sy is precisely on target when he ascertains that Maskot is primarily here to indulge his personal fantasies about how clever he is.
I've spent a few wasted sessions here in the past in a vain attempt to convey a well structured and supported argument to Maskot in the hopes that he might actually show signs that a light was burning brightly somewhere in his canine mind. It wasn't necessary for him to agree with me of course, just exhibit some semblance of give and take like, say, cite a book or an article he read that would support his point of view.
It never happens with Maskot because he's not here to understand primarily or to share fascinating insights, but to promote himself.
Don't read me wrong, I don't think that makes him "bad" per se, just misguided.
And largely a waste of time.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 5:34pm
Rabbi: A-Ha!
Posted by HonestLiberal @ 2:29pm
~a "canadian" and an "indian" walk into a bar............
~Posted by frosty zoom @ 5:31pm
~~Well done, fz.
~~Well done.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 5:36pm
Incidently, in regards to "Honest" Liberal's "joke":
The descriptor "Palestine" is a derivative of "Philistine" which if readers may recall, is the indigenous population that the Jewish peoples of the Old Testament so proudly expelled with extreme prejudice and violence led by their god, "YHWH".
plus ça change.........
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 5:47pm
Israel probes fraction of Palestinian deaths 26 Nov 2008, 1235 hrs IST, REUTERS Times of India
JERUSALEM: Israel has prosecuted five soldiers after investigating just 73 of 2,219 fatal shootings of Palestinian civilians over seven years of a violent uprising, an Israeli rights group said on Wednesday.
The Yesh Din group, which monitors the legal rights of Palestinians in the Israeli-occupied West Bank and in the Gaza Strip, also said in a report that charges were filed against soldiers in only 13 cases. None of these cases ended in a manslaughter conviction for killing a Palestinian civilian, the group said.
The report covered the period from September 2000, when a Palestinian uprising erupted after peace talks failed, through to the end of 2007. The Israeli army said in a statement: "It is not possible to derive any sort of ethical conclusions about the attitude of the IDF (Israeli army) to illegal behaviour by soldiers from a statistical analysis."
It added that there has been a rise in the number of Israeli soldiers reporting human rights violations against Palestinians, attributing the new trend to an educational programme. Yesh Din said that the only soldier convicted of manslaughter in a case involving the death of a civilian was in the case of a British national and peace activist, Tom Hurndall, shot dead in the Gaza Strip in 2003.
The report found the military resorted largely to debriefing soldiers rather than investigating them. It criticised what it called "a regular pattern" of the military's failure to bring perpetrators to justice.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Don't read me wrong, I don't think that makes him "bad" per se, just misguided.
And largely a waste of time.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 5:34pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Hope springs eternal. But, I don't think he would cop a plea if caught with his hand in the cookie jar.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 5:58pm
The "tetragrammaton":
יַהְוֶה
Commonly referred to as Yahweh or Jehovah.
It is no coincidence, of course, that a religion born of a place where waves of conquest were the rule and not the exception would consist of a well documented litany of violence and --unfortunately-- give rise to an entire western tradition of violence begetting violence.
The Big Question is can we find a path to a peaceful future?
I think we will, eventually, because we must, but there will be much more blood between now and then. And in the meantime, we are destroying the global ecosystem.
Yea Humans!
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 6:01pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 3:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Well put, right on target. Try arguing a "middle ground" about the Holocaust and watch what these fanatical Zionists and Israel-boosters say in response.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 6:10pm
Well put, right on target. Try arguing a "middle ground" about the Holocaust and watch what these fanatical Zionists and Israel-boosters say in response.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 6:10pm | ignore this person | warn this person
They and the ADL would have this thread shut down so fast you wouldn't have time to blink.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 6:33pm
While what Dennis Kucinich or Americans for Peace Now think about the latest Israeli Palestinian war, when it comes to the "legitimate political and economic aspirations of the Palestinians" it remains for Palestinians to speak for themselves and for the US to listen. It would help, to repeat again and again, for progressive publications to find Palestinian opinion to publish. Henry Siegman has written very well here and elsewhere as has Neve Gordon among others. What is missing here are Palestininian voices. Last night PBS News managed to find Rami Khouri in Beirut to speak about Lebanon and Hezbollah and Hamas. Apparently, The Nation can't do what PBS can. Recently Mustafa Barghouthi, Palestinian activist, head of the independent Palestinian National Initiative and an MP of the Palestinian Legislative Council has been very vocal about Gaza and the West Bank, easily available, but has not been published here. I repeat these two because they are prolific and available and progressive, but there are others too. US progressives will never get it right as long as they do not ask Palestinians what they understand and take seriously their initiatives. Legitimacy is theirs to express and claim. If progressives understood this, they might be relevant. Without it they may be well intentioned but miss what might make them relevant. So far only Naomi Klein has mentioned Palestinian calls for international action.
Charlie M.
Posted by cmsandia at 01/13/2009 @ 7:25pm
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 4:41pm
Cool...and I said you'd say-
"Cut all aid to Israel, even economic sanctions or blockades, until they agree to whatever demans Hamas delivers at the point of a rocket battery."---Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 2:23pm
So...I stick with my original post.
BECAUSE, if Israel didn't agree to HAMAS-dictated action (Notice you made your moves against Israel as a PRE-condition to Hamas graciously honoring a cease-fire...not a mutual cease-fire)...then we cut them off from all aid.
Again, you represent the Far Left of the LVLIB-SYFRIENDLY spectrum and LL the Far Right. Or as Ari Berman of "The Nation" (sure you've heard of it) once called you...
"the reflexively anti-Israel Left".
Neither the Hard Right nor Hard Left will solve this crises, here or in the Eastern Mediterranean. You never have.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 7:36pm
Well done, Maskot.
You prove the point by reiterating your stultifyingly dull and mind torturing "arguments" about where on "the spectrum" bloggers here fall.
Bravo, baleful beagle.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/13/2009 @ 7:45pm
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 7:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You ignored 90% of what I wrote, and singled out one thing to re-present in a vacuum. To clarify this single item I indicated that is all you appear to comprehend from what I wrote, I said there were many problems, and that Israel should face the loss of its aid IF it violates a cease fire with Hamas without provocation.
I fail to understand what is "extreme" about this, demanding that Israel face a penalty for deliberately and needlessly plunging the region into chaos, bloodshed, and despair by violating a cease-fire agreement it agrees to without provocation?
Forget it. I write a 100 words to you and you read 10, think about those 10 long enough to get 5 words worth of picture, and then respond with a summary denunciation of me personally. Go ahead and take what you want from these pages. I only interacted with you because you equated my writings (stupidly) with those of a radical Zionist religious fundamentalist who has yet to acknowledge any problem with all the death and bloodshed, but instead seems to be OK with it.
Oh, and by the way, you STILL haven't acknowledged YOURSELF what problem you see, and how to solve it. You are STILL only making snide and snippy comments about people posting here.
If you care to answer (if you don't want to, don't) what problem do YOU perceive with what's going on in Gaza, if any at all?
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 8:12pm
Oops! The first sentence clearly missed a bit and corrected here. To summarize, whatever "moderate" or "legitimate" is assumed to be in the article, they are empty terms without the Palestinians they are meant to apply, who remain the only people with the legitimacy to say what is acceptable and can speak for themselves and should in The Nation.
While what Dennis Kucinich or Americans for Peace Now think about the latest Israeli Palestinian war is useful, when it comes to the "legitimate political and economic aspirations of the Palestinians" it remains for Palestinians to speak for themselves and for the US to listen. It would help, to repeat again and again, for progressive publications to find Palestinian opinion to publish. Henry Siegman has written very well here and elsewhere as has Neve Gordon among others. What is missing here are Palestininian voices. Last night PBS News managed to find Rami Khouri in Beirut to speak about Lebanon and Hezbollah and Hamas. Apparently, The Nation can't do what PBS can. Recently Mustafa Barghouthi, Palestinian activist, head of the independent Palestinian National Initiative and an MP of the Palestinian Legislative Council has been very vocal about Gaza and the West Bank, easily available, but has not been published here. I repeat these two because they are prolific and available and progressive, but there are others too. US progressives will never get it right as long as they do not ask Palestinians what they understand and take seriously their initiatives. Legitimacy is theirs to express and claim. If progressives understood this, they might be relevant. Without it they may be well intentioned but miss what might make them relevant. So far only Naomi Klein has mentioned Palestinian calls for international action.
Charlie M.
Posted by cmsandia at 01/13/2009 @ 8:29pm
Or as Ari Berman of "The Nation" (sure you've heard of it) once called you...
"the reflexively anti-Israel Left".
Neither the Hard Right nor Hard Left will solve this crises, here or in the Eastern Mediterranean. You never have.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 7:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person
'By blindly following AIPAC, Congress reinforces a hard-line consensus: Criticizing Israeli actions, even in the best of faith, is anti-Israel and possibly anti-Semitic; enthusiastically backing whatever military action Israel undertakes is the only acceptable stance.'
AIPAC's Dangerous Grip on Washington
By Ari Berman, TheNation.com. Posted July 31, 2006.
Where is your centrism or moderate view represented in our government? Our government is reflexively pro-Israel and hardline. Might you be confusing criticism of Israel with anti-Israel reflexivity? Mr. Berman would say yes.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 8:40pm
Neither the Hard Right nor Hard Left will solve this crises, here or in the Eastern Mediterranean. You never have.
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 7:36pm
you should let the canadians do it.
we've done it before....
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 8:42pm
You ignored 90% of what I wrote, and singled out one thing to re-present in a vacuum.
Posted by syfriendly at 01/13/2009 @ 8:12pm
mask would <i>never</i> do that ;+]
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 8:43pm
you should let the canadians do it.
we've done it before....
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 8:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person
After Gaza and sanctions against Palestine, we need another peace broker. The US no longer has any credible standing. It would be great if the Canadians stepped in. Free us of this BS.
Just don't obligate yourself to perpetual military and economic aid to Israel as part of the settlement process. It is very expensive in more ways than one.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 8:50pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 8:50pm
the chinese.
they'll be there soon.
fix the problem and get all that oil from the grateful arabs.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 9:28pm
' This is terrible for the United States . . . This confirms every assumption they have in the Arab world about the tail wagging the dog. . . . It's a story you're likely to hear quoted there for years to come." Levy also accused Olmert of "unparalleled arrogance.". . ."There are some things you don't say, even in Ashkelon, even in Hebrew . . . "
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world
/la-fg-gaza-un13-2009jan13,0,6331793.story
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 9:41pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 6:33pm </i>
You mean, like they've censored all criticism of their government's policy in Israeli newspapers? Hmm....whoops, guess not.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/13/2009 @ 9:45pm
america's best friend:
The Advertiser, September 14, 2001
"Three die as tank raids stepped up"
ISRAELI tanks and bulldozers rolled into Jenin and Jericho in the West Bank early yesterday, shelling buildings and triggering gunfights that killed three Palestinians and wounded 18 . . .
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 9:47pm
You mean, like they've censored all criticism of their government's policy in Israeli newspapers? Hmm....whoops, guess not.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/13/2009 @ 9:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
MIDEAST: Israel in No Mood to Brook Dissent - Analysis by Jerrold Kessel and Pierre Klochendler
http://www.ipsnews.net/print.asp?idnews=45390
Let me know what ya think.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 9:56pm
fix the problem and get all that oil from the grateful arabs.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/13/2009 @ 9:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Yep...and we can thank Israel and our own screwed screwed foreign policy for it. New American Century indeed.
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 10:02pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 8:40pm
OV, read syfriendly on the previous thread, where he DEFENDS Hamas' rocket attacks...
and tell me there are no extremists on the other side (as there are on the LVLIB side).
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 10:07pm
<i>Posted by OneVote at 01/13/2009 @ 9:56pm </i>
Interesting little excerpt I found from your own article:
<<Unmoved by the broadsides, Ha'aretz columnist Gideon Levy, inveterate moral opponent of Israel's treatment of the Palestinians, fired back: "Who's a traitor? Who will decide for us whether launching this war of folly is patriotism, that rejecting it is treason?">>
Is the environment bad? Yeah. Censorship? Seems not.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/13/2009 @ 11:25pm
"Clinton referred specifically to Israel's assault on the Gaza Strip, which has left hundreds of civilians dead."
I read that it was Hamas that started the brouhaha. Let's get it right. Hamas is the instigator. Israel is defending itself.
"SMART POWER" = Do not upset all the Clinton library donors and the anti-semitic Jimmy Carter pals.
Posted by apoorspic at 01/13/2009 @ 11:43pm
Don't get your hopes up. Clinton was ambiguous in her testimony, promising to negotiate but rejecting negotiations with Hamas without preconditions. There is absolutely nothing new here, we've had the same principle in motion with Bush/Rice for eight years. One wonders how "smart" that's been.
Posted by john lowell at 01/13/2009 @ 11:58pm
Is the environment bad? Yeah. Censorship? Seems not.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/13/2009 @ 11:25pm
well,
we've fallen under dumbsorship here.
seems like they're victims of fearsorship.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2009 @ 12:27am
HRC's definition of "smart power" clearly means standing bravely on the side of the big money and the big war machine, i.e., Israel and the American Israel Lobby. Our "smart" politicians and diplomats perceive that the Palestinians and other oppressed peoples simply do not have enough to offer. Far better to be "smart" than, say, "nonbiased" or "just" or "moral." Plus ça change….
Posted by feinfein at 01/14/2009 @ 01:41am
"Moderate" in the American political climate means "right-wing" very nearly everywhere else on earth. For American policy to do any good in the Middle East, there will have to be a great deal more than a change from the obscenities of the past 8 years. There will have to be a sea change from the American endorsement of, financing of, and participation in Israeli war crimes for the past 42 years.
Posted by hsansom at 01/14/2009 @ 07:22am
A politician's axiom: it's just better to say nothing than not to say anything at all. It works every time.
Posted by davidleon at 01/14/2009 @ 07:41am
It is amazing to see Israel go against its own long-term self-interest. Without a peace agreement and the creation of a viable Palestinian state on the West Bank, eventually the whole world will demand an end to apartheid and will demand a unified Israel encompassing all of Palestine. That will be the end of the "Jewish" state and an Arab majority will resilt. And every illegal settlement in the West Bank allowed by the Israeli government makes a viable Palestinian state less possible. So the Zionists are bringing on the end of Israel as a "Jewish" state. What a paradox!
Posted by philbq at 01/14/2009 @ 07:56am
typo: "an Arab majority will result".
Posted by philbq at 01/14/2009 @ 07:59am
Cry the beloved United Nations...when is human life human and sacred. Over a 1000 Palestinians murdered and the world community still trying to figure what to do. Its no longer the poor vs the rich, its now the sub humans vs the super humans..how history repeats itself..those who claim to be victims of genocide have a very high proclivity, I say a very high tendency to perpetrate gynocide on others themselves. Those with eys can see.
Posted by chapsaj at 01/14/2009 @ 09:41am
and tell me there are no extremists on the other side (as there are on the LVLIB side).
Posted by Mask at 01/13/2009 @ 10:07pm
Mask - this is the extremism that worries me.
'As Israel Defends Itself, Jews Come Under Attack New York, NY, January 12, 2009 … As Israel acts to defend its citizens against Hamas rocket attacks and terrorism from Gaza, Jews around the world have come under attack, according to the Anti-Defamation League (ADL).
Assaults against Jews in communities around the world are on the rise. In Europe, Jews have been threatened and beaten on the street and synagogues firebombed. "Jews to the gas chambers" has been chanted at anti-Israel demonstrations in Europe and similar calls for death to Jews have been heard across the Arab and Muslim world. Newspapers in the Arab world and in Latin America have published pieces making blatant comparisons between Israel and the Nazis' perpetration of the Holocaust. One newspaper in Qatar ran an article noting that all Jews bear responsibility for what is happening in Gaza. Caricatures that depict Israelis as Nazis are appearing daily in the Arab press, in Latin American and even in some mainstream European newspapers.
"The manifestations of anti-Semitism are growing, fueled by the intense anti-Israel rallies where Nazi comparisons and anti-Semitic beliefs combine in an explosive mix," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "We have not seen an outburst of this kind of imagery since the outbreak of the second Palestinian Intifada, and this time, it could become worse. With only a few notable exceptions, this latest outpouring of anti-Jewish hate has met with little or no public condemnation."'
Excerpt from ADL
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/5441_13.htm
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 09:53am
Bin Laden urges jihad against Israel By LEE KEATH, Associated Press Writer Lee Keath, Associated Press Writer 1 hr 9 mins ago Excerpt
'CAIRO, Egypt – Al-Qaida chief Osama bin Laden urged Muslims to launch a jihad against Israel and condemned Arab governments as allies of the Jewish state in a new message aimed at harnessing anger in the Mideast over the Gaza offensive.
Bin Laden spoke in an audiotape posted Wednesday on Islamic militant Web sites where al-Qaida usually issues its messages. It was his first tape since May and came nearly three weeks after Israel started its campaign against Gaza's militant Hamas rulers.
The al-Qaida leader also vowed that the terror network would open "new fronts" against the United States and its allies beyond Iraq and Afghanistan. He said President-elect Barack Obama has received a "heavy inheritance" from George W. Bush -- two wars and "the collapse of the economy," which he said will render the United States unable to sustain a long fight against the mujahedeen, or holy warriors.
"There is only one strong way to bring the return of Al-Aqsa and Palestine, and that is jihad in the path of God," bin Laden said in the 22-minute audiotape, referring to the revered Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. "The duty is to urge people to jihad and to enlist the youth into jihad brigades."
"Islamic nation, you are capable of defeating the Zionist entity with your popular capabilities and your great hidden strength -- without the support of (Arab) leaders and despite the fact that most of (the leaders) stand in the barracks of the Crusader-Zionist alliance," bin Laden said.
The authenticity of the tape could not be independently confirmed, but the voice resembled that of bin Laden in previous messages.'
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 09:59am
Is the environment bad? Yeah. Censorship? Seems not.
Posted by Thrawn at 01/13/2009 @ 11:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Okay...fair enough. Like Frosty says, the "chilling effect" of fear is just as effective as outright censorship.
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 10:05am
seems like they're victims of fearsorship.....
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2009 @ 12:27am | ignore this person | warn this person
Yes indeedy.
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 10:06am
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 09:53am
As it does me...as does anti-Muslim fervor among the American (and other) Right.
But there often seems to be a denial of extremism on the side you're most closely allied to. I've noted both.
Both the insane LVLIB model whereby Israel should not only not receive any condemnation, but ENCOURAGED to do any and everything, upto re-taking permanently Gaza and the West Bank because it's "God's plan"...
AND the virulent anti-Israel hatred (which on SOME occasions spills into true anti-Semitism) and the "We should blockade and embargo Israel, drive it to its knees and then drag them in chains to the bargaining table where Hamas dictates the terms" insanity of a syfriend/rykart.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 10:58am
AND the virulent anti-Israel hatred (which on SOME occasions spills into true anti-Semitism) and the "We should blockade and embargo Israel, drive it to its knees and then drag them in chains to the bargaining table where Hamas dictates the terms" insanity of a syfriend/rykart.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 10:58am | ignore this person | warn this person
Such solutions have about as much chance as Hamas bottlerockets. With death toll mounting daily, and suffering on display, even "moderate" persons can become extreme sometimes when emotional. It is hard not to be dispassionate about this long festering problem. I do agree with you in your assessment that it will take moderation from both sides to end it. However, the bargaining power of Israel is vastly greater than that of the Palestinians, and so "pressure" from outside of Israel is necessary to convince Israel that moderation is its only option. Sanctions and threat of cutting off support for Israel are diplomacy tools proferred by Sy. While they seem extreme in context of unwavering US support for Israel throughout the years, they are tools that the UN and the United States have used to bring recalcitrant governments to their senses.
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 11:27am
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 11:27am
OV, it's a little hard for me to see "moderation" from guys like syfriendly who say Israel is "Nazi Germany" and Hamas is analogous to "our Founding Fathers".
He's merely the other side of a coin, from LVLIB.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 12:25pm
OV, it's a little hard for me to see "moderation" from guys like syfriendly who say Israel is "Nazi Germany" and Hamas is analogous to "our Founding Fathers".
He's merely the other side of a coin, from LVLIB.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 12:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And the killing will go on, and on, and on.
What a mess.
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 12:39pm
Posted by OneVote at 01/14/2009 @ 12:39pm
Until those two views in America (and as radical or worse in the Eastern Med)...becomes downright silly, much less untenable.
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2009 @ 12:46pm
.those who claim to be victims of genocide
who CLAIM to be....
a holocaust denier?
Posted by emile duBois at 01/14/2009 @ 2:28pm
Hamas is bad because it kills innocent civilians.
Israel is good (even) though it kills (a whole lot MORE) innocent civilians.
It all makes sense now.
Posted by FDR43 at 01/14/2009 @ 3:00pm
FDR,
It would appear that Osama may have heard a buzz in his ears the other day.
Oh well, it would be better if he just faded from the scene before he has a chance to become a martyr, perhaps, sometime under Obama's watch. Personally, I don't care to contemplate the idea that Obama/Osama may become protagonist/antagonist for the history books.
That's probably not a good light for Obama since Osama would very likely receive the laurels of "Defender of the Downtrodden".
Good luck with that, Barack.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 01/14/2009 @ 3:11pm
1:a few countries impose trade sanctions against Israel...2:USA retaliates in Israels behalf by sanctions against those countries...3:The USA action is weak because the USA does not import as much as last year....Israel could have used more drones to greatly reduce the rocket attacks against the fake Jews near Gaza.they came to Israel with only a letter from the local rabbi.
Posted by worker-bee at 01/15/2009 @ 01:08am
1:a few countries impose trade sanctions against Israel...2:USA retaliates in Israels behalf by sanctions against those countries...3:The USA action is weak because the USA does not import as much as last year....Israel could have used more drones to greatly reduce the rocket attacks against the fake Jews near Gaza.they came to Israel with only a letter from the local rabbi.
Posted by worker-bee at 01/15/2009 @ 01:09am