House Refuses (Overwhelmingly) To Encourage Gaza Peace

After weeks of neglecting the issue, the U.S. House finally addressed the crisis in Gaza.

But the overwhelming majority of members abandoned Israelis and Palestinians who are seeking peace in the region and endorsed an over-the-top "Supporting Israel in Its Battle with Terrorist Hamas" resolution that a statement from Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich's office criticized as "incomplete because it does not address the humanitarian crisis of Palestinians in Gaza, fails to insist on an immediate ceasefire, and neglects Israel's potential violation of the Arms Export and Control Act which governs U.S. arms exports to foreign countries."

In a letter sent January 6 to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, Kucinich expressed particular concern about Israel's possible violation of AECA and more generalized concern about the U.S. response to the crisis.

"In Gaza, the United Nations gave the Israeli army the coordinates of a UN school, and the school was then hit by Israeli tank fire, killing about forty. The UN put flags on emergency vehicles, coordinating the movements of those vehicles with the Israeli military, and the vehicles came under attack, killing emergency workers. The Israeli army evacuated 100 Palestinians to shelter, and then bombed the shelter, killing thirty people.," wrote Kucinich in that letter to Rice.

"Emergency workers have been blocked by the Israeli army from reaching hundreds of injured persons. Today's Washington Post: 100 survivors rescued in Gaza from roads blocked from Israelis. Relief agencies fear more are trapped, days after neighborhood was shelled," Kucinich continued. "Today, the U.S. Congress is going to be asked to pass a resolution supporting Israel's actions in Gaza. I'm hopeful that we don't support the inhumanity that has been repeatedly expressed by the Israeli army. The U.S. abstained from a UN call for a ceasefire. We must take a new direction in the Middle East, and that new direction must be mindful of the inhumane conditions in Gaza."

Kucinich cited the letter in explaining his vote against the House resolution, which was backed by 390 House members (Speaker Nancy Pelosi and 221 other Democrats, along with 168 Republicans.

Only five members of the House opposed the resolution: Kucinich and California Democrat Maxine Waters, Wisconsin Democrat Gwen Moore, West Virginia Democrat Nick Rahall and Texas Republican Ron Paul.

Another 22 Democratic members voted "present." They included: Arizona's Raul Grijalva; California's Sam Farr, Barbara Lee, George Miller, Loretta Sanchez, Pete Stark, Diane Watson and Lynn Woolsey; Georgia's Hank Johnson; Hawaii's Neil Abercrombie; Michigan's John Dingell and Carolyn Kilpatrick; Minnesota's Keith Ellison and Betty McCollum; Oregon's Earl Blumenauer and Pete DeFazio; Maryland's Donna Edwards; Massachusetts' John Olver; New Jersey's Donald Payne; New York's Maurice Hinchey; Virginia's Jim Moran and Washington's Jim McDermott.

Grijalva and Woolsey are the co-chairs of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. Kucinich and Lee are former co-chairs. And Waters, Moore and most of those voting "present" are members.

Many of those who voted "present" Friday expressed concern about the resolution's language.

Ellison, the first Muslim elected to Congress, told the House:

Madame Speaker, I come to the floor today torn about this resolution. Though I welcome resolutions by Congress to express support for the people of Israel and Gaza at this difficult time, this resolution does little to move toward a stable and durable peace in the Middle East.

I cannot vote against this resolution because I believe every country in the world has the right to defend itself.

I have been to Sderot and I have seen first-hand both the physical and emotional destruction caused by the rocket attacks launched by Hamas.

Israeli citizens living near the Gaza border have been repeatedly harassed and live daily in fear. Hamas, a terrorist organization founded with the goal of destroying Israel, has launched more than 6,000 rockets and mortars into Israel since 2005.

Last fall I voted for a resolution specifically condemning these rocket attacks into Israel.

At the same time I cannot vote for this resolution because it barely mentions the human suffering of the Palestinians in Gaza.

Over 750 people have been killed, including 250 children and 50 women, with over 3,000 people injured.

And even before the recent Israeli military operation, life for the people of Gaza had become increasingly unliveable -- with shortages of food, fuel and basic medical supplies.

The 1.4 million inhabitants of the Gaza Strip existed in a state of dreadful isolation, cut off from the world, often including the world's media.

Earlier this year the people of Gaza broke through the walls separating Gaza and Egypt simply to purchase groceries.

We need to have compassion for the people of Gaza and the tremendous human suffering there.

That is why I will vote "present" on this resolution concerning the current conflict in Gaza.

History has shown that ground troops and air strikes have not resolved conflict in the Middle East. If we try to resolve conflict with military might and nothing else, then we will be no safer than we were before.

Diplomacy is necessary to save lives and yield a lasting peace with security.

The United States government, together with international partners, must play an active role in pursuing real peace with security in the Middle East.

Even some members of the House who voted for the resolution seemed ill at ease with the message it sent.

Wisconsin Democrat Tammy Baldwin, a frequent ally of Kucinich, Ellison and other CPC members of foreign policy issues, voted for the resolution and then issued a statement that seemed to distance herself from it:

The current violence in Gaza is of great concern to me and many of my constituents who have called or written to express their opinions and sorrow. Today, I voted in support of H. Res. 34, recognizing Israel's right to defend itself against attacks from Gaza, reaffirming the United States' strong support for Israel, and supporting the Israeli-Palestinian peace process. I want to be clear that my vote in no way condones the loss of innocent civilian lives or any disruptions in humanitarian assistance reaching Gaza. I firmly believe it is imperative that both Israel and Hamas work together toward a durable and sustainable cease-fire, and I am hopeful that the incoming Obama administration will lead an effort to forge a lasting peace in the Middle East. My heart goes out to the many innocent victims of this conflict.

Unfortunately, such nuances get lost when headlines around the world read: "US House Backs Israel Over Gaza," "US Congress Votes to Back Israel" and "US House Overwhelmingly Passes Resolution Supporting Israel's War."

Those in Israel and Palestine who have been trying to promote both a ceasefire and renewal of the Middle East peace process got no help from Congress Friday.

Keith Ellison explained the unsettling nature of the signal that was sent when he noted that, while he believes Israel has a right to defend itself and has in the past voted for resolutions highlighting that right: "For the U.S. Congress to simply reiterate its statement that Israel has a right to defend itself, to me misses the critical issue before the world at this moment, which is the humanitarian crisis."

Comments (172)

1. The Democrats are Israeli-occupied territory, just like the West Bank, only instead of tanks and bombs and bullets, Israel's occupying army is equipped with huge sums of money.

   Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 6:43pm

2. Certain facts will never go away:

   1) This slaughter in Gaza is exclusively about Israel's February election. This brutal, criminal, and cynical slaughter is an attempt to get Tzipi Livni elected. Because the brutish Israeli public is in majority delighted by the slaughter, she appears to have reversed her fortunes in the polls with this war and is on her way to victory.

   2) Hamas was a legitimately elected political power.

   3) Israel responded to this election by using military incursions into Gaza and the West Bank to kidnap a portion of the elected Hamas officials who were imprisoned in Israel extra-judicially.

   4) Israel fomented civil war in the Palestinian Authority, and helped it to fracture, then tried to pretend that Fatah, which lost by a wide margin, was the legitimate power.

   5) Israel imposed crushing and inhuman sanctions against the people of Gaza in an act of collective punishment straight out of the history of the Warsaw ghetto.

   6) Israel broke off the cease fire by militarily attacking Hamas within Gaza without provocation.

   7) As Carter wrote in last Thursday's Washington Post, Hamas was *STILL* nonetheless to abide by the cease-fire and any peace agreement Israel made so long as it was approved by democratic popular referendum by the Palestinian people.

   8) Israel refused to break of the sanctions, leading to a degree of misery and malnutrition President Carter indicates matched that in parts of sub-Saharan Africa.

   9) Again, faced by a likelihood of losing the election, the current regime in Israel chose to slaughter and wound a huge number of Gazans and to (here it comes) militarily reoccupy Gaza in order to swing public opinion in favor in their election.

   The conscience of the civilized world has been shocked, from here to Nepal.

   Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 6:49pm

3. While the rest of the world watches in disgusted disbelief, the government of the United States, this time the House Of Representatives, gives poignant testimony to condition of slavery to which it has so willingly submitted itself. Does anyone for five minutes really think that the wording of this resolution expresses the will and outlook of the American people or even comes close to expressing it? Yet all but five of these comodified slugs voted for it. With such blatant ownership by AIPAC openly on display, how can anyone in truth assert that the government of the United States is a functioning democracy, who in honestly deny that representative government here has utterly failed and that the promise of 1776 is a fantasy?

   There will come a time when the American people will experience such cost in tolerating the ownership of their "public servants" in this and similar ways that they will rise up en masse and dismember the system that has made it all possible. And they won't stop until every last one of these vermin are brought to account.

   Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 6:54pm

4. " ... Four decades of Israeli control did incalculable damage to the economy of the Gaza Strip. With a large population of 1948 refugees crammed into a tiny strip of land, with no infrastructure or natural resources, Gaza's prospects were never bright. Gaza, however, is not simply a case of economic under-development but a uniquely cruel case of deliberate de-development. To use the Biblical phrase, Israel turned the people of Gaza into the hewers of wood and the drawers of water, into a source of cheap labour and a captive market for Israeli goods. The development of local industry was actively impeded so as to make it impossible for the Palestinians to end their subordination to Israel and to establish the economic underpinnings essential for real political independence ..." -- Avi Slaim, former IDF soldier

   http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/ jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

   Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 7:01pm

5. From Shlaim's writing, an encylopedia-suitable definition of Apartheid:

   "... In Gaza, the Jewish settlers numbered only 8,000 in 2005 compared with 1.4 million local residents. Yet the settlers controlled 25% of the territory, 40% of the arable land and the lion's share of the scarce water resources ..."

   Less than 0.01% of the population, the Jewish religious fanatics Israel illegally transported into the territory they militarily occupied (and are going to occupy again, starting this month) controlled 25% of the land, 40% of the arable land, and almost all of the available water.

   Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 7:04pm

6. The point of the thread is not about Israel but rather the overwhelming support it has from your politicians. It is exactly the same in Australia, where we have a Left-Wing government and a few thousand pro-Hamas/Palestinian demonstrators berating it for supporting Israel by refusing to condemn it. That support also is across party lines.

   If you look at Europe it is much the same, with a perfunctory acknowledgment of the Palestinians plight but also support for Israel's right to prevent Hamas's aggression.

   Is it not possible that that level of support has nothing to do with a Jewish lobby, in all those countries including your own, but that it is you who are out of step with or ignore the moral and historical considerations that underpin that support of Israel.

   It is simply not credible that all these politicians, across the world, are in thrall to any Jewish lobby.

   Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 7:19pm

7. Anyone notice that the only people willing to put their ass on the line here are some form of minority?

   Two black women, a man of Lebanese descent, the only voice of the non-interventionist Old Right politics and the only voice for left wing politics emphasizing peace can all find something to agree about here.

   Everyone else either chickened out with a present vote or worse, supported this resolution.

   Nothing says humanitarian crisis and public relations nightmare like boxing one million people in and making a war zone out of the place - particularly when Israeli troops are using our weapons in violation of U.S. law to do it.

   It's a travesty.

   Posted by srjenkins at 01/10/2009 @ 7:22pm

8. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 7:19pm

   Let's use the correct term here, lrjones, its Israel Lobby, not "jewish" lobby. And if you've got some doubts about its existence or inclined to disbelieve its potency, I'd refer you to the definitive scholarly work on the matter, The Israel Lobby by John Mearshimer and Stephen Walt. You can attempt to refute them if you'd like.

   Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 8:06pm

9. The United States uncritical support of Israel politically and militarily (this includes President-elect Obama) makes it (all of us) complicit in the war crimes that are being committed.

   As far as Hamas is concerned, although I adhor their stated intentions to destroy Israel, they are not un-like the patriots that declared our independence over 200 years ago. The difference is that the people of Gaza have suffered under much worse conditions than did ancesters did.

   Posted by galderink at 01/10/2009 @ 8:09pm

10. Let's use the correct term here, lrjones, its Israel Lobby, not "jewish" lobby..... You can attempt to refute them if you'd like.

    Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 8:06pm

    John it seems that the the core of the "lobby" is "American Jews", which sounds very much the same as a Jewish lobby to me:

    "The work's thesis is that "The Lobby", defined as a "loose coalition of individuals and organizations who actively work to steer U.S. foreign policy in a pro-Israel direction." promotes "crimes perpetrated against the Palestinians" and also "hostility towards Syria and Iran......."

    "The authors state that the "core of the Lobby" is "American Jews who make a significant effort in their daily lives to bend U.S. foreign policy so that it advances Israel's interests." They note that "not all Jewish-Americans are part of the Lobby," and that "Jewish-Americans also differ on specific Israeli policies"

    Thanks for the offer, John, but I thought you may be more impressed with a refutation from Noam himself:

    "Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at MIT, asserts that he did not find the thesis of the paper very convincing. He said that Stephen Zunes has rightly pointed out that "there are far more powerful interests that have a stake in what happens in the Persian Gulf region than does AIPAC [or the Lobby generally], such as the oil companies, the arms industry and other special interests whose lobbying influence and campaign contributions far surpass that of the much-vaunted Zionist lobby and its allied donors to congressional races." He finds that the authors "have a highly selective use of evidence (and much of the evidence is assertion)", ignore historical "world affairs", and blame the Lobby for issues that are not relevant.[37] Wiki.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 8:47pm

11. To achieve a just and lasting peace, some things are inevitable. 1) Israel must withdraw to a minimum of 1967 borders. (which should really be 1948-49 borders) 2) The refugees must be given either compensation or right to return to their homes. 3) The Jewish illegal settlements in the West Bank should be dismantled. If the Jewish settlers want to live there, they should apply for Palestinian visas/and or / resident status, and live with Palestinian laws. 4) Both Palestine and Israel should receive security guarantees. Yes, security for Palestinians is also important. Israel can't be allowed to go into Palestine whenever it feels like doing so. 5) East Jerusalem should be allowed to be the Palestinian capital, just as West Jerusalem be the Israeli capital. It has already been 60 years of violence. It is time to put a stop to it. And it can be done.

    Posted by Han at 01/10/2009 @ 9:08pm

12. Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 8:06pm

    John I still suggest it is quite incredible that Congress should vote in such a way simply because it was manipulated by Jewish pro-Israel groups.

    I'm not sure about the numerical size of the American pro-Israel Evangelical support but I would be more willing to accept that as a logical reason why Americans support Israel than the activities of some very small Jewish pro-Israel lobby.

    Evangelicalism in Europe, including Britain, and in Australia does not have the same emphasis on dispensational pre-millennialism as does American Evangelicalism and thus the land of Israel does not have the same eschatological significance attached to it. Yet here and in Europe where the Jewish lobby is unlikely to resonate with that stream of eschatology, as it does in your country, the support for Israel is very strong.

    I am not saying that is the only reason for the way Congress voted but that along with our historic Western Judeo/Christian background, is I suggest, a far more credible reason for the general support Israel has, not only in America but also in the West generally than any theory about the Jewish lobby.

    (Judeo/ Christian roots? At the grass roots level we all know the Jewish heroes like Moses and Joshua and the sweet singer in Israel, David, and their exploits. It's sort of in our religious bones).

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 9:18pm

13. It is true that Hamas was elected by the people of the Gaza strip and a majority at that.

    It is also true that the people of Gaza support Hamas today.

    It is also true that Hamas is sworn to drive Israel out of the area.

    It is also true that the people in Gaza, being good Muslims support the Islamic groups that fire rockets into Israel every chance they get.

    It is also true that the people who support the firing of rockets into Israel allow Hamas to use their homes, schools, and business, even Mosques to build and store weapons..

    Therefore it is also true that the people are involved as much as Hamas in the fight against Israel and have set themselves up to be in harms way...

    The only protest one has not seen are the mothers, sons, daughters,ect, protesting in the streets and before cameras against anymore war between Hamas and Israel and condem the rockets barrages that have been launched daily at Israel....

    why?

    If I were Israel I would have to assume all the population is supporting Hamas and their mission, and therefore are part of the armed conflict at this point..

    Can ANYONE point to ANY demonstration in the Arab or Islamic world against the firing of rockets into Israel?

    Can ANYONE anywhere point to ANY Arab, Palestinian, or Islamic group yell loud enough for the world to hear, that they want the rockets to end and try to see if peace can be established when NO rockets, Homicide, suicided Idiots are launched?

    When one side wins, then there will be peace...when both sides recognize the other is finished and surenders...

    However,the Islamic side believes Mohammad will return to help them win..so Israels fate is already cast..one cannot negoiate with another who belives God is supporting their efforts..and Israel is not using God.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/10/2009 @ 9:24pm

14. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 9:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    You are aware that, every year, all the important elected figures make a pilgrimage to a convention in Washington, DC that the New York Times inevitably only mentions in passing in its coverage as "a Jewish convention" or similar, never mentioning that it is the annual AIPAC convention?

    Every year, the leading political figures give a speech at this convention, pledging to eternally stand by Israel.

    The arms lobby and oil lobbies are also both clearly very powerful players. The arms lobby loves the Israel lobby and vice-versa, as the arms industry makes billions of dollars per year on Israeli purchases, purchases made with the "aid" our government gives them.

    However, the Israel lobby is a decidedly powerful force.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 9:33pm

15. You might also check out the AIPAC web site, where they declare themselves in clear print to be "America's Pro-Israel Lobby".

    http://www.aipac.org/

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 9:34pm

16. " ... Therefore it is also true that the people are involved as much as Hamas in the fight against Israel and have set themselves up to be in harms way ..."

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/10/2009 @ 9:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    This is the calculus of nihilism, and is the same calculus that terror organizations use to conclude that the people of Israel and elsewhere are responsible for their regimes' behaviors - do not, in these "democracies", the people vote, time and again, for murderous regimes that commit rights violations and atrocities? Do not these people willing fund the governments with their money? Do they not allow their sons and daughters to be conscripted?

    Collective punishment is a two-edged sword.

    And, again, this latest atrocity is more about the February 10 election in Israel than anything else.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 9:42pm

17. The arms lobby and oil lobbies are also both clearly very powerful players. The arms lobby loves the Israel lobby and vice-versa, as the arms industry makes billions of dollars per year on Israeli purchases, purchases made with the "aid" our government gives them.

    However, the Israel lobby is a decidedly powerful force.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/10/2009 @ 9:33pm

    Well it seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse. Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why these non-Jewish politicians have this predisposition toward Israel. Your answer is tantamount to saying the Jewish lobby casts a spell over them or worse, bribes them. Meaning a totally mad or corrupt Congress, given that vote. That is crazy stuff.

    My suggestion is that there is already a cultural predisposition toward the existence and prosperity of Israel and these politicians have their hearts in it as much as anyone, including pro-Israel Jews and that is a reasonable understanding of why they attend these meetings.

    As you mention and Noam Ch. puts the cat among the pigeons when he reminds us that America is a big Arms supplier to Saudi Arabia and provides aid to Egypt and Jordan of a military and also social nature as well as to Israel. In that context Israel is just part of a pro-American alliance of friendly states in the ME.

    (In fact if, as you say, the aid to Israel goes to buying arms from the US you aren't doing too badly. You get a pat on the back from Israel and get more jobs for American workers. A win-win situation).

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 9:57pm

18. Galderink,

    There us one difference between the American Patriots and Hamas...the American Patriots goal all along was to join WITH England , not push them into the sea wipe them off the face of the Earth.

    Slight difference.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 01/10/2009 @ 10:30pm

19. Yet one more defeat for Kucinich!

    Posted by sntauri at 01/10/2009 @ 10:50pm

20. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 8:47pm

    "John it seems that the the core of the "lobby" is "American Jews", which sounds very much the same as a Jewish lobby to me"

    Well, the logic you employ here certainly has a long and ignoble history, lr. To say that "the core of the Lobby is American Jews" and that we should therefore identify it as the "Jewish Lobby" is cut from the same anti-semitic cloth as was the now long discredited argument that since the core of the Communist Party leadership following the 1917 Revolution was largely Jewish we should see Communism as a Jewish phenomenon. I reject that logic and would certainly hope that I'd be able to convince you to reject it too. My argument is with American Likudists, not Jews, and The Lobby is nothing if not Likudist.

    "Noam Chomsky, professor of linguistics at MIT, asserts that he did not find the thesis of the paper very convincing ..."

    The Catholic Church didn't find Galileo's arguments very convincing either, lr. Chomsky's main contention was that oil interests, not the Israel Lobby, drive US Middle Eastern policy. Mearshimer counters that while there is substantial evidence to the support the influence of the Israel Lobby on US policy, there is little or none to support Chomsky's thesis.

    If your looking for assessments a bit less slap-dash than those recounted in Wikipedia you might want to consider that of historian, Tony Judt, in a New York Times Op Ed of April 19, 2006. Judt is the author of the definitive historical work on post-WWII Europe, Post War. Here's the link:

    http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/opinion/19judt.html

    Regards.

    Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 11:08pm

21. "Never again" as a motto, rings hollow when it means "never again to us alone."

    Posted by mystic7 at 01/10/2009 @ 11:35pm

22. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 9:18pm

    "I'm not sure about the numerical size of the American pro-Israel Evangelical support but I would be more willing to accept that as a logical reason why Americans support Israel than the activities of some very small Jewish pro-Israel lobby."

    And here, of course, one of the main reasons as to why we can't identify the Israel Lobby as the "Jewish Lobby", lr. Mearshimer and Walt identify it as having a very important - and very active - Christian Zionist component which exponentializes the influence of AIPAC, and that it most certainly does. Here are the bulk of Lobby's voter and much of its financial support.

    The Lobby has a hammerlock on the throat of American democracy, lr. By rights it ought to register as an agent of a foreign power. There are open questions of espionage that are currently being litigated naming former AIPAC officials, and for years there has been the support the Lobby has given to convicted spies like Jonathan Pollard. If this is how we define the term "special relationship" its time that it be made a good deal less special.

    Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 11:43pm

23. Where can we find the latest most progressive Peace Plan dot-points? What have the key Arab States indicated before this ceasefire was broken on Tuesday 4th November (Israeli pre-emption on militant tunnel near border post)? I agree with Prof Schaim: " There is simply no military solution to the conflict between the two communities. The problem with Israel's concept of security is that it denies even the most elementary security to the other community. The only way for Israel to achieve security is not through shooting but through talks with Hamas, which has repeatedly declared its readiness to negotiate a long-term ceasefire with the Jewish state within its pre-1967 borders for 20, 30, or even 50 years. Israel has rejected this offer for the same reason it spurned the Arab League peace plan of 2002, which is still on the table: it involves concessions and compromises.

    This brief review of Israel's record over the past four decades makes it difficult to resist the conclusion that it has become a rogue state with "an utterly unscrupulous set of leaders". A rogue state habitually violates international law, possesses weapons of mass destruction and practises terrorism - the use of violence against civilians for political purposes. Israel fulfils all of these three criteria; the cap fits and it must wear it. Israel's real aim is not peaceful coexistence with its Palestinian neighbours but military domination. It keeps compounding the mistakes of the past with new and more disastrous ones. Politicians, like everyone else, are of course free to repeat the lies and mistakes of the past. But it is not mandatory to do so. • Avi Shlaim is a professor of international relations at the University of Oxford" from: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/07/gaza-israel-palestine

    Posted by bazdicoot at 01/10/2009 @ 11:49pm

24. I wonder how the Arab media will `play' this Vote...ignore it or play it up? Posted by HAPPYLonghorn at 01/10/2009 @ 11:50pm

    Does it matter? Arab media have a tenuous grasp on truth, anyway. Their papers are full of Holocaust denial, analysis of the "Protocols", and the stories about muslim children being being slaughtered by Jews so their blood can be mixed with matzoh for Passover.

    The media will write what they want, true or not, and the hate will be perpetuated.

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 12:34am

25. Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 11:43pm

    I think it was sy who gave me the AIPAC address and it is an interesting read.

    I noted that it claims it does not receive support from the state of Israel.

    There is a rather damning paste up of Hamas's charter which, given it is accurate, lends credence to a reasonably rational and well founded fear of Hamas. That of course would be exacerbated if Israel did not have military superiority over both Palestinian political entities and that obviously is one of AIPAC's main drivers in getting the US to commit to the concept of Israel's military advantage.

    (That document is a pretty good reason for Israel not to move out of the militarily strategic disputed territories until it is certain that program is no longer entertained by any of the leadership factions in Gaza or the West Bank).

    There is also something on Israel's commitment to sharing the land with the Palestinians and its desire for peace etc.

    It does seem pretty up front in publishing it aims and activities and is about the sort of thing that one would expect from an organisation with its sort of charter. That does not seem sinister to me nor would a Palestinian organisation with similar aims for its people.

    As far as the non-Jewish, pro-Israel support is concerned that, as I mentioned before, is not an exclusively American phenomenon and it exists in other parts of the world without AIPAC so perhaps even without it Israel would still have majority support in America. It seems to provide a focus and framework for US/Israel policy but that may just be a reflection of intended US policy regardless of AIPAC's influence. A sort of symbiosis.

    (Some have suggested Iraq 2003 was never on Israel's radar as Saddam acted for them as a buffer against Iran).

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 12:48am

26. My speech from a Gaza Peace Protest Today (part 1) relates to discussion:

    Middle East Peace Policy: Problems and Solutions

    It must be made immediately clear that what I am about to say is in no way meant to be taken as Anti-Semitic or against the Jewish religion. There are Jewish people that strongly support peace and oppose this Gaza War. Additionally, I must immediately emphasize that I strongly condemn the killing of civilians by any organization whether it is Hamas or Al Qaeda, or the American and Israeli governments. This is the only confidently consistent position.

    Hamas is not justified in killing civilians, and likewise the Israeli government is unjustified in killing hundreds of civilians in what many are calling genocide. We are typically taught that terrorism is only when poorer groups kill civilians with less sophisticated instruments of death. But when Israel or America kills civilians with costly warplanes, tanks and missiles, it is not terrorism. It is not terrorism even if hundreds of times as many civilians end up dying. They are merely "collateral damage" or "human shields".

    I would strongly argue that any time civilians are killed indiscriminately it is terrorism, and both sides are committing terrorist acts in this conflict. Hamas rockets not only kill civilians rather infrequently, but the more frequent terrorist aspect is the fear that Israeli citizens must live with. Similarly, every time a massive Israeli bomb is dropped on a building, civilians die. There is no such thing as a precision guided, discriminate "smart" bomb when dropped in densely populated urban areas.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 12:59am

27. My speech from a Gaza Peace Protest Today (part 1) relates to discussion:

    Middle East Peace Policy: Problems and Solutions

    It must be made immediately clear that what I am about to say is in no way meant to be taken as Anti-Semitic or against the Jewish religion. There are Jewish people that strongly support peace and oppose this Gaza War. Additionally, I must immediately emphasize that I strongly condemn the killing of civilians by any organization whether it is Hamas or Al Qaeda, or the American and Israeli governments. This is the only confidently consistent position.

    Hamas is not justified in killing civilians, and likewise the Israeli government is unjustified in killing hundreds of civilians in what many are calling genocide. We are typically taught that terrorism is only when poorer groups kill civilians with less sophisticated instruments of death. But when Israel or America kills civilians with costly warplanes, tanks and missiles, it is not terrorism. It is not terrorism even if hundreds of times as many civilians end up dying. They are merely "collateral damage" or "human shields".

    I would strongly argue that any time civilians are killed indiscriminately it is terrorism, and both sides are committing terrorist acts in this conflict. Hamas rockets not only kill civilians rather infrequently, but the more frequent terrorist aspect is the fear that Israeli citizens must live with. Similarly, every time a massive Israeli bomb is dropped on a building, civilians die. There is no such thing as a precision guided, discriminate "smart" bomb when dropped in densely populated urban areas.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 12:59am

28. Part 2:

    Purely gauging terrorism on quantity of civilians killed, America and Israel are actually far more effective terrorist actors because they consistently kill many times more civilians than Hamas, Hezbollah, and Al Qaeda combined. The UN estimated that approximately 800 Gaza residents have been killed so far with the vast majority being civilians, including over 250 children, and of the 3,100 wounded, nearly 1,100 are children. Moreover, Israel is targeting civilian infrastructure like water treatment facilities, hospitals, schools and places of worship. They even bombed a well-known U.N. school that was housing civilians whom had evacuated from other regions, killing dozens.

    It is also important to set another record straight, it was actually Israel that broke the ceasefire. On November 4, the ceasefire broke down when Israeli forces conducted a major air and ground raid on Gaza, killing six Hamas members. Moreover, Israel also failed to uphold the terms of the ceasefire by refusing to lift the U.S. backed blockade. This blockade prevented food, medicine, energy and water purification supplies from regularly entering Gaza. This led to rampant suffering, malnutrition, especially among children, and hundreds of deaths.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 01:01am

29. Part 3: This blockade, like the Israeli and Hamas bombings, is considered "collective punishment" in direct violation of international law, and all are potential War Crimes. The International Committee of the Red Cross has publicly stated that Israel is also breaking international law by preventing ambulance access to bombed areas. After finally gaining access to one area, the Red Cross found four young children sitting near dozens of corpses, including their dead mothers. The starving children were too weak to even stand. The bodies and children had to be evacuated using donkey carts due to large earthen barriers constructed by Israel.

    In the most alarming and inexcusable evidence of a clear War Crime I have witnessed, there are photos and videos online of several young children that have been executed by Israeli soldiers shooting them directly in the chest and head. This story has failed to reach even progressive media sources online.

    The problem with all of these disproportionate actions is that they are extremely counterproductive to a real peace policy by increasing hatred and ultimately more terrorism. The key words are "disproportionate" and "counterproductive".

    Not only must we condemn Hamas and Israel's actions, but it is even more important to condemn our own complicit government. Our government provides over $3 billion in taxpayer funds each year so Israel could purchase our missiles and F16s, which ultimately kill primarily civilians. Even worse, when Israel commits such atrocities on civilian populations nearly 100% of our government blindly supports it, which is precisely why many Arabs and Muslims harbor hatred toward America.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 01:02am

30. #4 Right before our U.S. Senate recently gave unanimous support for Israel's actions, Sen. Majority Leader Harry Reid said, "Imagine…rockets…coming from…Toronto in Canada into Buffalo New York. How would we as a country react?" Unfortunately, he is using one-sided reasoning to take advantage of the uninformed. Using his line of argument, one could ask, "Imagine Canada initiated a blockade on the United States and prevented food, medicine, water purification supplies, and energy. How would we react?" He is arguing Israel is acting in self defense, but when the vast majority of the dead are civilians, this argument rings hollow.

    The House also passed this resolution supporting Israel's actions 390-5. Obviously, the angel Dennis Kucinich opposed it, and has called for U.N. investigations into Israel's actions.

    This full Senate approval is not at all surprising considering Arkansas Sen. J. William Fulbright said in 1973 on Meet the Press, "Israel controls the United States Senate."

    The question becomes, why and how does Israel control our government, especially when Americans are not unanimous in support of these actions, with a recent poll showing the country evenly split?

    Yesterday, I encountered a most enlightening NYT letter written by Einsten et alii in 1948. The letter is a warning to Americans about the emergence of the Israeli "Freedom Party", which they describe as being founded on principles of the "Nazi and Fascist parties", and the founding members belonged to a "terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist" organization called Irgun Zvai Leumi. Importantly, this Freedom Party is a direct ancestor to the modern right-wing Israeli parties in power today. The letter also warns of "irreparable damage…by way of financial contributions" to our country by the Freedom Party.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 01:03am

31. #6: Unfortunately, it turns out that Einstein's concerns were proven correct. In 2008, the three largest campaign donors in America are right-wing Jewish billionaires, including media mogul Haim Saban. Moreover, the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC) is one of the most powerful lobby groups in Washington. Essentially all of our political leaders ritualistically get down on all fours and kiss their toes, especially during fundraising season.

    So, what are the answers to these problems? I think the most immediate thing is for everyone to call for an immediate ceasefire on both sides, which is our primary purpose today.

    In terms of long term solutions, the most important thing is for Americans to begin demanding full public campaign financing to eliminate the corrupting influence of private money in our elections. Only then can our leaders begin the road of even handed policies in the Middle East. This public campaign financing would also help solve essentially every other major policy problem within our government as well, including healthcare, energy, environmental and economic issues.

    In terms of Israel, obviously sanctions and killing Palestinian family members is counterproductive, and only creates more hatred. Responding to terrorism with terrorism only creates more terrorism. It would be a far more constructive peace policy to talk to all political groups within Palestine, including Hamas, which was democratically elected.

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 01:04am

32. Final: By giving them some legitimacy, they would be drawn away from violence in order to gain international political recognition. This is actually what was happening after they won the elections, they began moderating and modifying some of their extreme statements.

    Ultimately, all parties need to evolve socio-politically and learn to fight with words instead. Instead of the hard powers of war and sanctions, we must use the soft powers of diplomacy, treaties and cross-cultural influence and understanding.

    To these Ends, May God Help All the People of Palestine, America and Israel, and May Peace and Justice Soon Dawn on Earth!

    Cease Fire Now! Cease Fire Now! Cease Fire Now!

    Thank You!

    Posted by AbelTomlinson at 01/11/2009 @ 01:05am

33. The aims and benefits of the Cold War, since the main rise of Stalin, were to keep labour cheap and to slow the progress of Politburos too keen for the guillotine. Israel, like South Africa, was always a key US ally for its relative usefulness as a Western outpost among a potential new, post-communist threat. The new threat, since the 1990s, may not threaten cheap labour reliability, but it does pose instability in general and cracks in US, Russian or Chinese hegemony in many parts of their spheres of influence. US Congress, certainly with an eye on hard-ball lobbyists (like AIPAC) cow-tow to Netanyahu or Livni, no matter, to maintain standard WalMArt/Burger-chain friendly markets wherever possible. If olive trees and orchids have to be bull-dozed so Miami-style lawns can be established, then why not back Israel to the hilt; even swallowing all manner of spin about leaving West Bank occupation intact. Is there not a viable peace plan? Will the next Israeli Cabinet ignore that great opportunity?

    Posted by bazdicoot at 01/11/2009 @ 02:07am

34. I just want to add one other quick note (and would love to know, by the way, how you get so many characters in one post; for some reason, it won't let mine go that long)

    I understand that my continuing demands for evidence may seem abusive in the context of a blog in which the capacity to thoroughly provide evidence and documentation is very limited.

    However, I think this kind of argument is unique. In order to avoid the kind of sloppy generalizations and "rumor-spreading" that has historically allowed antisemitism to succeed, it's important that any claims be very carefully documented and conclusions not go beyond what the evidence allows.

    That's also why I get a bit nervous when these kinds of arguments are being made on a blog like this, especially when they morph into broad generalizations and naked assertions. The blog format can certainly pervert political discussion on a lot of issues, and that's certainly something to consider across the board, but I think that becomes especially pernicious in an issue area where legitimately harsh criticism of Israel can sometimes be difficult to distinguish from antisemitism.

    As I said, that's why so many of my responses in the last post come in the form of burdens. I don't mean to accuse you of being antisemitic (and no, quoting Jews isn't a complete defense to antisemitism), but I am wary of the arguments you provide because they parallel very closely a form of argument used to demonize Jews. It may be limited to a specific sect of Judaism, but it is no less disturbing for that. No religion or sect should be immune from criticism, but accusations of other-hatred should be made only on strong evidence that I have yet to see here.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 02:16am

35. Whoops, sorry about that. Though I think the methodological point might still apply to other posts on this thread, it was meant for a discussion on the "Bush does a 180" thread.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 02:16am

36. Whoops, sorry about that. Though I think the methodological point might still apply to other posts on this thread, it was meant for a discussion on the "Bush does a 180" thread.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 02:16am

37. For decades the entire world has condemned Israel's actions and their continued expansion and aggression yet our own congress (against the will of the majority of Americans) joins with the US/Israel Australian UN vote as the real impediments to peace. Israel's current terrorist activities, done in secret as they hold the press away, and just before Obama takes office and before their elections....while they can get away with it without any real physical opposition makes it offensive for them to play "victim" in this slaughter where even the safety of children is of no consequence. Bush/Cheney wanted Hamas out...along with Israel who have continued their blockade to provoke Hamas so they could destroy them in response while playing the role of victim...just defending themselves...like the Nazis defended their homeland from the Jewish threat.

    The sad part is, like Americans against Bush, Israeli right wing extremists are probably in the minority in Israel and just in a hurry to kill as many as possible before the US (the only ones who can) threatens to pull their support (siding with the Israeli Supreme court and the red cross in condemning them). Just remember taxpayers...it is you tax dollars paying for the 2000lb bombs killing over 300 children so far while having the nerve to call the Palestinians the terrorists. The actions of the Israelis are providing justification for terrorist activities against the US. We gave them the bombs to drop on the UN schools and the funds and (thanks to Reid and Pelosi) the support to prevent medical aid to reach the innocent victims of their slaughter. Our leaders say anything Israel does to its enemies we support...no matter what.

    Over 800 and counting Palestinians dead to 10 Israelis (killed mostly by friendly fire).

    Posted by bjobotts at 01/11/2009 @ 02:18am

38. http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/19/opinion/19judt.html

    Regards.

    Posted by john lowell at 01/10/2009 @ 11:08pm

    I read the NYT article. It is interesting and I wondered about US foreign policy choices being influenced by the lobby but the need to make a judgment about whether pressure to support Israel distorted American decisions. That could be interpreted as America still makes choices that are in its own best interests.

    When you read Judt's history, John, it doesn't take long to realise that he had a great emotional response to what he saw in his kibbutz experience in Israel, which has stayed with him through his life, and that is problematic. In the sense that he comes to his analysis with very strong presuppositions and negative feelings about the state of Israel. He is no longer a disinterested academic investigator but is too closely identified emotionally and personally with the situation as the following indicates:

    "In a March 2007 interview, Judt commented on the American need to block criticism of Israel as stemming from the rise of identity politics in the US. "I didn't think I knew until then just how deep and how uniquely American this obsession with blocking any criticism of Israel is. It is uniquely American." The article, published on Israeli Independence Day, recaps Israel's short history, describing what Judt sees as a steady decline in Israel's credibility that began with the Six-Day War in 1967.[16]."

    You will find that Judt's disillusionment began about the time of the Six Day war. Thus the decline in credibility he is really talking about is from his own personal journey and in that context he is anything but a disinterested expert. That tends to lessen the academic integrity of his premises about the state of Israel.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 02:47am

39. I believe that if Israel were not mentioned in the Bible, Americans would care no more about Israelis than they do Palestinians...this is why Americans are so prejudiced toward the Jewish people and do not even know about the plight of the Palestinians in Gaza. Most Americans, because of our press, do not even know the real situation in Gaza and that may be why they are so quick to side with Israel. After all, what has Israel ever done for the US that we should be so supportive as to overlook our own best interests and fund their wars with $ and weapons?

    btw...what sacrifices has Israel made for peace, what have they given up, how are they suffering in the so called compromise? Striving for peach should far outweigh the incidental killing of children...enough so that every other means should be exhausted first. Israel should stop now, appeal to the UN for a treaty with UN peace keepers dispatched to ensure a cease fire.

    It appears Israel would rather slaughter as many as possible before trying to find any solution to the situation. The UN is virtually unanimous in voting on the side of the Palestinians save for a few countries (America, Australia and 2-3 more) and the entire world is viewing Israel as a rogue terrorist state due to it's current actions...horrendous actions so unnecessary to achieve their goals.

    Their plan has been push Hams into a corner and when they try to get out of it, attack them without mercy blaming them for being dissatisfied with their corner. Has Israel gone so far that they feel nothing when they look at a classroom of children except that they are in the way?

    Posted by bjobotts at 01/11/2009 @ 03:14am

40. This is because we hardly have a House of Representatives. What we do have is the US Military Junta, who seized control during the Dallas Coup of 1963, who is now using Israel to debut new Super Weapon technologies in the field. We're putting on a Super Weapon Side Show ominously aimed at Russia, China, Venezuela, North Korea and Iran.

    "Mads Gilbert, a Norwegian war surgery specialist working in Gaza, told The Times that he had seen injuries believed to have resulted from Israel's use of a new "dense inert metal explosive" that caused "extreme explosions". He said: "Those inside the perimeter of this weapon's power zone will be torn completely apart." the Times Online/UK

    "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones." -- Albert Einstein

    Well, I know of five weapons with which WWIII is currently being fought- WHITE PHOSPHOROUS, DENSE METAL SUPER WEAPONS, NUCLEAR STICK UP, MISSILE DEFENSE, AND PROPAGANDA!!!!!

    Posted by fakedemocracy at 01/11/2009 @ 03:33am

41. Posted by Han at 01/10/2009 @ 9:08pm

    Sounds like a logical solution to me. But in addition Israel would have to relinquish control of the air space, territorial waters, offshore maritime access, the population registry, entry of foreigners, imports and exports and the tax system. According to the Oslo Accords Israel still retains these controls. And is not this blockade of commerce and access one of the major reasons Hamas keeps firing missiles into Israel?

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 03:37am

42. Posted by fakedemocracy at 01/11/2009 @ 03:33am |

    You forgot depleted uranium munitions. So very chic and popular for use in Iraq. The United States and Israel voted against the resolution to update research on the impact of uranium munitions. Hmmm..

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 03:51am

43. Just to put this atrocity in perspective. As of today. 820 Gazans are dead. Among them are 235 Children. 235 Children.. Who have absolutely nothing to do with any of this. One unfortunate child turns up missing in Florida and Nancy Grace blathers on and on and on. Mass murder in Gaza. Baby killing perpetrated by the State of Israel and the American government. 13 innocent civilians in Israel are killed by Hamas. Where is the justice? Where is the protest? 1.4 million people boxed into an area 25 miles long and between 4 to 7 miles wide. With no where to go and nothing to do but die and despair.

    When will this end?

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 05:34am

44. Now there's a surprise, they are all just a bunch of gutless wonders...I wonder how quickly they would act if this country was being torn apart!!! We watch this carnage day after day and say and do nothing, how embrassing is that and we wonder why the rest of the world have this, for want of a better word "hate" for the US policy!!!

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 09:01am

45. "NYT letter written by Einsten et alii in 1948. The letter is a warning to Americans about the emergence of the Israeli "Freedom Party", which they describe as being founded on principles of the "Nazi and Fascist parties", and the founding members belonged to a "terrorist,"

    Note that the father of Rahm Emmanuel, Obama's chief of staff, was a founding member of the Irgun, along with the Stern Gang, Jewish terrorists active prior to & during the 47-48 war in Palestine. Moreover, during the 1st Gulf War, Rahm E volunteered for & served in the military, not of the US, but of Israel.

    As long as US foreign policy is held captive to the Israeli rightwing, we are doomed.

    Posted by sloper at 01/11/2009 @ 10:02am

46. If we are well wishers of Israel, we would give advice to Israel not to indulge in this fruitless, brutal war. Neither the US nor Israel are wise. These wars eventually destabilize the whole region, radicalize the Arabs all over the world and it is only a matter of time before the jews will have to find new homes elsewhere. Once again the Jewish homeland will be only a dream. The God who promised them this cursed land withheld the wisdom of living in peace with neighbors! What a God that is?

    Posted by rnagisetty at 01/11/2009 @ 10:07am

47. <i>Posted by fakedemocracy at 01/11/2009 @ 03:33am </i>

    Um....wow. I already used the Saruman/madness quote, so I don't have much for this. Suffice to say...this is probably the craziest post I've seen here in a long time.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 10:28am

48. As long as US foreign policy is held captive to the Israeli rightwing, we are doomed.

    Posted by sloper at 01/11/2009 @ 10:02am

    You are absolutely correct, until our policy is changed toward Israel there will never be peace in that region. We have been in lock step with them for too many years and it's time for them to realize they don't own the right to dictate to us or other countries who also favour them what we will or won't support.

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 10:29am

49. Is it not possible that that level of support has nothing to do with a Jewish lobby, in all those countries including your own, but that it is you who are out of step with or ignore the moral and historical considerations that underpin that support of Israel.

    It is simply not credible that all these politicians, across the world, are in thrall to any Jewish lobby.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/10/2009 @ 7:19pm

    If we've learned anything by now, it's this: the US can and does dictate terms and leads the developed world. A better barometer of support is the UN where the US often finds itself alone and the Europeans, while doing their best to sound 'neutral' in other instances to appease the US, voice their concerns.

    Having lived in Europe myself for many years, I know one thing for certain, the vast majority DO NOT support most of Israel's actions and positions. No one acknowledges their claims to the Occupied Territories and Arab E. Jerusalem. Even in Holland where there's a major backlash against Islam due to the Van Gogh murder, people still back the Palestinians. The US is indeed influenced by AIPAC and in turn influences her allies to follow or at least not make a fuss. For the most part, this holds true, and make no mistake European leaders are often as spineless as our own (note their inability to act when Bosnia became a killing field) and in Germany and other places, the charges of anti-Semitism are effective when it comes to Israel (and the two are often purposefully linked). Lastly, American propaganda has effectively created some division in places like the UK, Australia etc. as they watch our films and TV that all take a pro-Israel perspective when that issue comes up. Suffice it to say though, I would not call European timidity a sign of moral introspection.

    Posted by nukemind at 01/11/2009 @ 10:36am

50. Um....wow. I already used the Saruman/madness quote, so I don't have much for this. Suffice to say...this is probably the craziest post I've seen here in a long time. Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 10:28am

    Just when you think it can't get any worse. Someone shows up to up the ante.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/11/2009 @ 10:36am

51. CCC, THRAWN.

    it seems our friend here isn't quite so tinfoil. looks like the IAF (israeli attack force) is using WILLIE PETE in gaza, having taken a page from the marines in fallujah.

    have a look at phosphorous burns if you dare:

    http://www.teeth.com.pk/blog/wp-

    content/uploads/image/fallujah_phosph.jpg

    "The rounds, which explode into a shower of burning white streaks, were first identified by The Times at the weekend when they were fired over Gaza at the start of Israel's ground offensive. Artillery experts said that the Israeli troops would be in trouble if they were banned from using WP because it is the simplest way of creating smoke to protect them from enemy fire.

    There were indications last night that Palestinian civilians have been injured by the bombs, which burn intensely. Hassan Khalass, a doctor at al-Shifa hospital in Gaza City, told The Times that he had been dealing with patients who he suspected had been burnt by white phosphorus. Muhammad Azayzeh, 28, an emergency medical technician in the city, said: "The burns are very unusual. They don't look like burns we have normally seen. They are third-level burns that we can't seem to control."

    Nafez Abu Shaban, the head of the burns unit at al-Shifa hospital, said: "I am not familiar with phosphorus but many of the patients wounded in the past weeks have strange burns. They are very deep and not like burns we used to see."

    Rows of the pale blue M825A1 WP shells were photographed on January 4 on the Israeli side of the Israel-Gaza border. Another picture showed the same munitions stacked up behind an Israeli self-propelled howitzer."

    http://news.google.com/ (+phosphorus +gaza)

    sick mofos....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:53am

52. REAL HEROES:

    Kucinich and California Democrat Maxine Waters, Wisconsin Democrat Gwen Moore, West Virginia Democrat Nick Rahall and Texas Republican Ron Paul.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:54am

53. One of the problems that the pro Pal people have is that few spend much time talking about the plight of native Americans,China/Tibet,slaughters in Africa,etc which makes their claims of concern for Pals less believable.They seem to be too selective as to which group of "oppressed"people that they care about.In fact,native Americans have all but been forgotten about expect when the pro Pal side needs to justify living on stolen land while whining about Israel living on stolen land.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 01/11/2009 @ 12:03pm

54. REAL HEROES:

    Kucinich and California Democrat Maxine Waters, Wisconsin Democrat Gwen Moore, West Virginia Democrat Nick Rahall and Texas Republican Ron Paul.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:54am | ignore this person | warn this person

    I'll second that motion.

    Posted by OneVote at 01/11/2009 @ 12:04pm

55. Wolofowitz Doctrine on US Primacy

    'The doctrine establishes the U.S's leadership role within the new world order.

    "The U.S. must show the leadership necessary to establish and protect a new order that holds the promise of convincing potential competitors that they need not aspire to a greater role or pursue a more aggressive posture to protect their legitimate interests. In non-defense areas, we must account sufficiently for the interests of the advanced industrial nations to discourage them from challenging our leadership or seeking to overturn the established political and economic order. We must maintain the mechanism for deterring potential competitors from even aspiring to a larger regional or global role." This was substantially re-written in the April 16 release.

    "One of the primary tasks we face today in shaping the future is carrying long standing alliances into the new era, and turning old enmities into new cooperative relationships. If we and other leading democracies continue to build a democratic security community, a much safer world is likely to emerge. If we act separately, many other problems could result." '

    Source: Wikipedia

    The last sentence is telling. Nice fricking job US Congress. Clearly, the tail wags the dog in this country.

    Posted by OneVote at 01/11/2009 @ 12:12pm

56. The REAL story should be:

    HOUSE's OVERWHELMING VOTE IN FAVOR OF ISRAELI INVASION OF GAZA IS INCONSISTENT WITH MIXED VIEW OF AMERICAN PUBLIC.

    I wonder what the cause of such an unrepresentative vote could be, and how such a an unrepresentative vote of elected officials can be consistent with the democratic principles of this country?

    If the House does not reflect the will of the people who elected them, whose will are they reflecting?

    Posted by Metteyya at 01/11/2009 @ 1:46pm

57. Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 02:16am

    "...and would love to know, by the way, how you get so many characters in one post..."

    Try Firefox with the NoScript add-on.

    Posted by srjenkins at 01/11/2009 @ 1:50pm

58. Here is the clear evidence of the massive umbilical cord that exists between Wall Street and Pennsylvania ave. Any one who still believes that our democracy is for all people is sniffing rattle cans of red paint.

    Posted by julien38 at 01/11/2009 @ 1:57pm

59. Addenda: Plutocracy. How the hell did our government become so parochial?

    Posted by julien38 at 01/11/2009 @ 2:03pm

60. Imagine, if you will, the currious case of the conjoined twins, Fred and Barney.

    Now both twins were virulent anti-semites. Then one day, Barney (who controlled the right half of the body) decided to take action, he bought a gun and murdered a rabbi. At his trial, Barney freely admitted to murding the fithly swine rabbi. And Barney's attorney threw up his hands and said, I have no idea how to defend this guy. And he was found guilty and sentenced to death for a hate crime.

    Ah, but Fred got himself an attorney and argued against collective punishment, and John Nichols wrote of the State's attempt to murder the innocent, Fred. So the state decided that it could not legally administer Barney's sentence and so the matter was dropped. So Barney murdered another rabbi. And when they went to throw him in jail, Fred's lawyer argued that the State couldn't incarcerate the innocent Fred. So while they waited for the second trial, Barney murdered 3 more rabbi's.

    After Barney murdered his tenth rabbi, Fred and Barney went to a neo-nazi celebration dinner where Barney (not Fred) was celebrated and awareded a $50,000 lifetime achievement award. Fred and Barney took a vacation with the money. When they got back, Barney murdered another 5 Jews. But The Nation's brave John Nichols continued to write stories of the grotesque and unfair treatment of Fred.

    It was the perfect loophole. Barney could murder as many filthy Jews as he wanted. And even though Fred hated filthy Jews every bit as much as Barney, he never took and positive steps to murder them and so The State could never carry out a sentence against Barney.

    Then the community said, well, our laws never intended to be a suicide pact, and they administered some vigilanty justice and killed them both.

    The end.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 01/11/2009 @ 2:17pm

61. In matters of life and death and self-defense a bunch of abstract theories don't mean shit. If the entity that would murder you is dispicable enough to hide behind innocent children, then innocent children are gonna die as you defend yourself.

    Self-preservation is the only rational course of action to take. Any law that says otherwise is a law that will never be followed. You can't just write laws that say people have to be content with being murdered for "the greater good" and expect any rational human being to follow that law.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 01/11/2009 @ 2:25pm

62. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 2:06pm

    No, it really is mixed with 58% of Americans having no knowledge that Hamas is democratically elected!

    http://pewglobal.org/reports/display.php?ReportID=252

    And no one "hates" Israel, we just want our democracy back so that Congress reflects the will of the AMERICAN people rather than the will of some lobbying group.

    Posted by Metteyya at 01/11/2009 @ 2:26pm

63. "Having lived in Europe myself for many years, I know one thing for certain, the vast majority DO NOT support most of Israel's actions and positions." Ccom.

    Yes, I too have lived in euroland for many years & it's true, the vast majority, while certainly supportive of an Israeli state, consider Israeli seizure of more land & military domination of the Palestinians as ultimately suicidal &, in the meantime, barbaric.

    Posted by sloper at 01/11/2009 @ 2:37pm

64. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 2:48pm

    I don't know where you get your news, LVL, but in December a Libyan vessel with humanitarian supplies was not allowed by Israel to port in Gaza.

    http://tinyurl.com/9bgjuj

    Her is another story of Lebanon and Iraq stepping up to provide assistance:

    http://tinyurl.com/6twzmt

    US news sources are notoriously unreliable with respect to news involving Israel, so I would suggest getting your news from non-US sources to get a truer picture of what is actually going on.

    Posted by Metteyya at 01/11/2009 @ 2:57pm

65. I suggest people watch BBC America more, you will see a lot more of what is really going on than we see here in the US. So many things are not shown on our TV or if it is, it tends to be very biased toward the Israeli plight. People need to see what is really going on in both places and what is really happening as regards to Israel stopping food/aid getting through to Gaza!!! This conflict involves two factions, but we are only keen to show how bad Hamas is and how hard done by Israel are!!

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 3:08pm

66. Watching the pictures of ruin and despair from Gaza, it appears not to be the "concentration camp" others have decried, but bears more semblance to the images from the Warsaw Ghetto after the uprising. What comes to mind is the iconic photograph from the Jewish Holocaust of the small boy holding up his hands in abject error. Indeed, and so ironically, the Jews from that time bear more in common, in their suffering and isolation, with the Palestinians in Gaza than with their Zionist heirs. Has the abused child of the Jewish people now grown up to be the abuser?

    Posted by Neocynic at 01/11/2009 @ 3:12pm

67. I don't know where you get your news, LVL, but in December a Libyan vessel with humanitarian supplies was not allowed by Israel to port in Gaza. http://tinyurl.com/9bgjuj Posted by Metteyya at 01/11/2009 @ 2:57

    Interesting article. Why does the Libyan refer to Israel as the "Zionist entity", and not simply, "Israel"? why did Libya go outside of normal channels, the channels used by Lebanon and Iraq, to deliver the aid?

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:29pm

68. Rows of the pale blue M825A1 WP shells were photographed on January 4 on the Israeli side of the Israel-Gaza border. Another picture showed the same munitions stacked up behind an Israeli self-propelled howitzer." http://news.google.com/ (+phosphorus +gaza) sick mofos.... Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:53am

    I don't understand. Does Willie Peter kill someone deader than, say, a spear? Does it burn deeper than, say, a flame tipped arrow? If I could find pictures of medieval soldiers hit by burning oil or pitch, I would show you those. War is not any more brutal now than before. We can all agree it's bad.

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:37pm

69. The United States and Israel voted against the resolution to update research on the impact of uranium munitions. Hmmm.. Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 03:51am

    I'm sorry. Do all scientists in the world need to get approval from the US and Israel to do research?

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:40pm

70. .In fact,native Americans have all but been forgotten about expect when the pro Pal side needs to justify living on stolen land while whining about Israel living on stolen land.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 01/11/2009 @ 12:03pm

    You are right about other groups and their causes but those groups are not at present fighting to the death here or at least they are not most current in the news!!! Anyway, America in this case has more than a passing interest in backing Israel and I don't think you can equate what is going on in Gaza to Native American's having their land taken!

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 3:42pm

71. 869 Palestinians killed over half non-combatants. Approximately 3500 wounded.

    We can never forget this. We can never forgive, and we can never forget.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 3:46pm

72. You are absolutely correct, until our policy is changed toward Israel there will never be peace in that region. We have been in lock step with them for too many years and it's time for them to realize they don't own the right to dictate to us or other countries who also favour them what we will or won't support. Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 10:29am

    You're right, Caj. Israel won't last a year without the support of the US. They will be pushed into the Med. Will that make you happy?

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:46pm

73. Oh yes, sure, the nuclear-armed rogue nation with the best military in the region, the rogue nation that bombs its neighbors at will ... it will be "pushed into the sea.

    Such a fatuous statement, such a repetition of slogans.

    869 people murdered by the Israelis, and thousands wounded, so that Tzipi Livni can get elected. And look at the brutish Israeli population cheering the murder and war crimes on.

    We can never forget. Never.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 3:49pm

74. Given that Israel has destroyed any hopes for peace in the region anytime soon - that creepy little nation faces a dim and dubious future for this and so many other atrocities - the civilized people of the world can only watch in horror as yet another Israeli massacre is perpetrated.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 3:50pm

75. Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:53am

    There is a video of some Willie Pete going off in the air over Gaza at the BBC website. I don't have the link. Just happened to see it there this morning. I was disgusted, angry and sad. Bastards.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 3:50pm

76. Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 3:50pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    The savages are also armed with the latest American DIME weapons. The frantic and desperate Gaza medical personnel are reporting absolutely horrifying injuries - the white phosphorous weapons are guaranteed to produce third-degree burns that are very difficult to treat, and the DIME weapons are producing a huge number of amputations according to medical workers in Gaza. Men, women, and children are entering the hospital will limbs either shattered or sheared off by these state-of-the-art weapons our government is giving to the savages, to use as they please.

    We can never forget this. We can never, ever forget this.

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 3:53pm

77. Such a fatuous statement, such a repetition of slogans. 869 people murdered by the Israelis, and thousands wounded, so that Tzipi Livni can get elected. And look at the brutish Israeli population cheering the murder and war crimes on. We can never forget. Never. Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 3:49pm

    Talk about repetition of slogans. Aren't you going to feel like an ass if Tzipi Livni isn't elected?

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:58pm

78. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 12:08pm

    If you want to see a bigot LVL, just look in the mirror. Just because people criticize Israel does not mean they are anti-semitic. And just because people criticize America, does not mean they are Anti-American.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 4:02pm

79. You're right, Caj. Israel won't last a year without the support of the US. They will be pushed into the Med. Will that make you happy?

    Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:46pm

    All I want is for them to be pushed out of Gaza, they have no business being there at all. They are an aggressive nation and they don't need any help from the US but they sure get their backing when they use all their military might on the Palestinian people.

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 4:03pm

80. http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite? cid=1180527966693&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/S howFull

    "All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert."

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 4:05pm

81. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 02:47am

    "In the sense that he comes to his analysis with very strong presuppositions and negative feelings about the state of Israel. He is no longer a disinterested academic investigator but is too closely identified emotionally and personally with the situation as the following indicates."

    To dismiss Judt's analysis because one imagines that it's possible to approach the scholarly enterprize without presuppositions flies squarely in the face of the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle, lr. Everyone, without exception, carries presuppositions and personal prejudices to the examination of any question, it's impossible to do otherwise. Objectivity in the way you are requiring it here of Judt is simply an abstraction.

    The Mearshimer and Walt thesis, despite its having been given what experienced Lobby critics call the "treatment" - orchestrated efforts by Lobby protagonists to muzzle, to personally discredit, and to damage them professionally and economically - has been an important first step in attempts to break the stranglehold the Israel Lobby exerts over American political life and our Middle East policy. The furor it's raised is testimony to the truths it has uncovered.

    Posted by john lowell at 01/11/2009 @ 4:13pm

82. the fact that Europe overwhelming remains extremely anti-Israel and anti-Jew. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 12:08pm

    Just because Europe is largely sympathetic to the palestinian people does not indicate they are anti-jew. It just means they understand the conflict better than you do.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 4:18pm

83. All civilians living in Gaza are collectively guilty for Kassam attacks on Sderot, former Sephardi chief rabbi Mordechai Eliyahu has written in a letter to Prime Minister Ehud Olmert."

    Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 4:05pm

    That must be why the Israeli army drop bombs on UN schools then seeing as all civilians are guilty!!!! What a ridiculous, stupid man that he can talk utter nonsense over this matter and have the nerve to blame civilians.

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 4:21pm

84. Just because Europe is largely sympathetic to the palestinian people does not indicate they are anti-jew. It just means they understand the conflict better than you do.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 4:18pm

    Anyone who has sympathy for the Palestinian people are all called..Anti Jew or Anti Semite, it is so stupid! It was just the same with the Bush administration, if you did not agree with them you were called "Un-patriotic". Why are we given labels because we do not agree with you folks and then you call us these names? I wouldn't call anyone "Anti Palestine" or "Anti Obama" because they don't agree with me....that is their choice.

    Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 4:31pm

85. caj-The Tibetans are,very much,fighting to the death as are other groups,but that is ignored because few care.It's more entertaining to get into fanatical arguments about this subject so that's what many do.Many on the pro Pal side say that Israelis are living on stolen land,but so are those people and so one can make comparisons to the native Americans with people who mention that Israelis are living on stolen land.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 01/11/2009 @ 4:50pm

86. Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:40pm

    It was a U.N. resolution. Designed to stop the use of depleted uranium munitions. Scientists already know what Uranium-238 does to people. Depleted uranium is mainly Uranium-238 and has a half life of 4.46 billion years. And the U.S. military has used it extensively in Iraq from the 1991 Gulf war to the present. The health effects of DU are tragic. And Iraq if fairly glowing with background radiation due to it's use.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 5:05pm

87. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 4:53pm

    Uh LVl, those hate crimes based on religious bias against jews are 2006 figures of U.S. hate crimes. Not hate crimes in Europe. I think we all know that the U.S. is king when it comes to hate crimes in general. From hate crimes due to sexual orientation, religious or racial bias, we take the cake.

    A more important question is why is the most diverse country in the world when it comes to race, religion, disabilty or sexual orientation is the most violent and despicable when it comes to that issue?

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 5:35pm

88. <i>Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 5:09pm </i>

    Far too much of this relies on generalizations in desperate and unsuccessful search of supporting facts. Might some leftists think this way? Yeah. Is this a characteristics attributable to "the left" (to the extent any such monolithic entity exists)? Of course not.

    <i>Posted by john lowell at 01/11/2009 @ 4:13pm </i>

    Seriously? The Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle? Heisenberg has absolutely NOTHING to do with any of this. It's about quantum mechanics, not ideology.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 5:42pm

89. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 5:09pm

    I have just now (although I have suspected it before). Speaking kindly now, that you are "Stark Raving Mad". Speaking unkindly I would say, you are "Crazier than a Shit House Rat".

    Get help.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 5:45pm

90. Posted by nukemind at 01/11/2009 @ 10:36am

    Perhaps you lived in Muslim enclaves in Europe.

    Your response of course supports my contention that it is those countries with a common Judeo/Christian heritage that follow the lead of a nation ,the US, that has the same cultural history.

    As far as the Netherlands is concerned, the government and in a representative democracy that is all that matters, is as solidly behind Israel as the US is. I will also post you an article from the Dutch Protestant Churches which indicates even American Christians aren't on their lonesome re Israel.

    As far as Australia goes, though there is great sympathy for the suffering of the Palestinians, which all civilised people must feel, there is also a sense that Israel is doing what it needs to do to ensure its survival as Hamas is a proxy for its real danger,Iran.

    Netherlands: No Sanctions on Israel; Another Ceasefire Idea

    by Nissan Ratzlav-Katz

    01/08/2009

    (IsraelNN.com) The government of the Netherlands rejected calls to impose sanctions on Israel in the wake of the Jewish State's campaign against the Hamas regime in Gaza. Even as the Dutch Prime Minister expressed understanding for Israel, his government and that of Denmark are putting forth a new ceasefire initiative.

    In a written response to parliamentary inquiries this week, Dutch Foreign Minister Maxime Verhagen and Development Co-operation Minister Bert Koenders stated their government's position on anti-Israel sanctions. The Dutch government dismissed the idea, which was raised by a number of members of parliament who feel that Israel is using "disproportionate force" in its war with Islamic fundamentalist terrorists in Gaza.

    More at: http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/129323

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 6:17pm

91. Dutch church to reexamine policy of solidarity with Israel

    Haaretz

    24 September 2007

    After 37 years of boasting of "inalienable solidarity" with the people of Israel, the Netherlands' second largest church plans to reexamine its stance this fall. A group of notables from the Protestant Church in the Netherlands (PCN) warned last week that the organization, which has over two million members, is in danger of being "hijacked" by pro-Palestinian activists.

    The warning - coauthored by Dr. Jan van der Graaf, who served for 35 years as general secretary within one of the three churches that make up the PCN, and three other prominent church figures - was an open letter against changing the reference to Israel. It was addressed to Minister Henri Veldhuis, a General Synod member who said the clause made the church adopt a biased view that ignored Israeli actions against Palestinians.

    At a speech last month in Utrecht for Friends of Sabeel (a Jerusalem-based Palestinian organization), Veldhuis said the church should commit to a bond with Israel "as people of the Torah" instead of the "Jewish people as an ethnic group." Veldhuis also complained that currently, "the church has a stronger bond with a non-believing Alaskan Jewish person than a Palestinian Christian."

    The open letter accused Veldhuis of a slanted and hypocritical approach. "We were astonished by your address before a Palestinian liberation organization that pretends to be promoting reconciliation," it read. "You accused Israel but ignored Hamas's Jew-hating ideology. You overlooked the alarming anti-Semitic upsurge in Arab countries."

    More at: http://www.palestinemonitor.org/spip/spip.php?article113

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 6:27pm

92. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 4:53pm

    Maybe you should check your own URL. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/victims.html

    Those stats are U.S. Hate Crimes..

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 6:42pm

93. While I am generally sympathetic to the aspirations of moderate Israelis and Arabs alike, I fear that the Arab side is far too blinded by emotion to grasp the essential realities of the conflict, and that is what prevents peace.

    Until the Palestinians reject terrorism, there will be no peace. Until the Palestinians reject their leaders' stated goal of destroying Israel, there will be no peace.

    It is sad that the Gaza war is causing great loss of life, but those who think that Israel would ever accept or be pressured into accepting a ceasefire that emboldens its enemies are blinding themselves to reality. The reality is that Israel is a nuclear power in its own right with a vivid cultural memory of real genocide against its parents and grandparents. They will destroy the entire world, if necessary, before embracing their own destruction.

    It is the Arabs that need to wake up to reality here. The world sits back and allows Arab Muslims to massacre hundreds of thousands of non-Arab Muslims in Darfur. The Israelis are not so stupid as to trust the rest of the world to save them from the same fate at the hands of the Arab Muslims. Go ahead, Arabs, cause a nuclear war over this matter. Because that is what you will get before any Israeli government backs down to your genocidal goals.

    If you force the Israelis to commit genocide to preserve their own interests, they will do so. Remember that Judaism is even older than Islam. The two religions share a disdain for turning the other cheek. This is not about morality, this is about survival--for both sides. But it is the Arab side that is miscalculating their position this time.

    Posted by JeffB29 at 01/11/2009 @ 6:44pm

94. REAL HEROES: Kucinich and California Democrat Maxine Waters, Wisconsin Democrat Gwen Moore, West Virginia Democrat Nick Rahall and Texas Republican Ron Paul. Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:54am

    Yup. And until our own economic crises gets so bad that even the rich have to eat spam and top ramen, Americans will never be concerned with unfairnesses perpetrated by others in these strange times. Weigh in on the Jewish/Palestine issue? No can do at this point.

    But until as we stop giving them, the Israelis, money for modern weapons, they will never start to develop any philosophical mindset that would lead to a logical discussion about any lasting peace. They'll just do what WE do... blow them up and say that you're sorry much, much later. If ever.

    Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 6:47pm

95. Until the Palestinians reject terrorism, there will be no peace. Until the Palestinians reject their leaders' stated goal of destroying Israel, there will be no peace. Posted by JeffB29 at 01/11/2009 @ 6:44pm

    Until Israel rejects terrorism and stops picking on a weaker opponent and using U.S. supplied state of the art weapons of mass destruction on innocent women and children, there will be no peace.

    Until the United States rejects the use of Terrorism in bombing and occupying sovereign nations like Iraq and Afghanistan. And stops supporting other terrorist countries like Pakistan, Israel and Saudi Arabia. There will be no peace.

    There are two sides to every conflict. And no one side holds the moral high ground in any conflict. As long as there is conflict and war and those that profit from death and destruction the human race will not know peace. There is no peace through war..

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 6:59pm

96. <i>Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 5:35pm </i>

    I'm actually...not sure that's true. There are HUGE amounts of antisemitic and anti-Muslim hate crimes in Europe, for example. This stuff is still a pretty big problem on the Continent, so I'm not sure we really take the lead. Evidence seems to suggest that we report more of our crimes, but I'm not sure the proportional number of crimes (we're bigger than most European countries) is actually greater.

    Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 7:03pm

97. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 6:56pm

    You posted those stats without stating that they were U.S. hate crimes. So you alluded that they were significant in Europe. Very sneaky..

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 7:03pm

98. Posted by Thrawn at 01/11/2009 @ 7:03pm

    I confess I don't have the exact numbers or know who beats who in the hate crime dept. But I do know the U.S. would rank right up there. And even one hate crime is one to many. I was caught up in the moment. So many people who post here are just one wave short of a shipwreck. Gets me in outrage mode.

    Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 7:15pm

99. Posted by john lowell at 01/11/2009 @ 4:13pm

    John not sure what the Heisenberg uncertainty principle has to do with it. That is more applicable to quantum physics and has to do with the values of conjugate variables. and the difficulty in measuring one or the other of them accurately. I was thinking more in terms of a simple thing like bias. However if you wish to show how Heisenberg helps I'm interested.

    You are quite entitled to accept Judt at face value. I'm a little more cautious in giving credibility where there seem to be reasons for a position to be interlaced with one's own less than rational biases.

    Even if we were to accept Judt and many other academics at face value, I still find their theory of the lobby effect on US policy in the ME less than credible simply because it does not explain a more universal predisposition to favour Israel.

    Support for Israel seems to me to be based on something culturally fundamental in the West. Given that predisposition and even if the lobby was not there, the support for Israel, though perhaps not so policy specific, is pretty certain to have been of much the same intensity.

    I think you are too pre-occupied with the US "academia" experience in contrast to the greater academic freedom to criticise Israel in Europe but that is not where the support, that matters, comes from but rather from governments.

    Obviously politicians of other nationalities also don't take much notice of academics who cut across their predisposition to favour Israel. Maybe, in fairness to such politicians, they do have rational arguments for their position but as you noted we all come to an issue with our biases.

    Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 7:20pm

100. You posted those stats without stating that they were U.S. hate crimes. So you alluded that they were significant in Europe. Very sneaky.. Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 7:03pm

     Yes, after going to a few of these tiny.url links posted by lvliberty, I realized that underneath the veneer of historical knowledge that he maintains, he is indeed a right wing fundamentalist... key word, mental. Now I see.

     That's bait, by the way. Wouldn't want you to do a pirovano on me. Viva la punta negro!!

     Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 7:24pm

101. First the Jerusalem Post, then, the New York Post. Talk about slant.

     Sometimes it's better to NOT list your sources if you want to dispel the 'crazy shit house rat' reputation.

     From Wikipedia... The New York Post has been criticized since the beginning of Murdoch's ownership for what many consider its lurid headlines, sensationalism, blatant advocacy and conservative bias. In 1980, the Columbia Journalism Review asserted that "the New York Post is no longer merely a journalistic problem. It is a social problem--a force for evil.

     Well, who'da thunk it?

     Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 7:44pm

102. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 7:40pm

     Debate on the 'merits?'. Only if your opinions and sources have any. Then that would be justifiable.

     Now that I know your leanings , I promise to support my 'debate' with factual references.

     That may lead, however, to the disclosure of your own sources as biased, and therefore not worthy of support by a fair minded mindset enjoyed by others. That, of course, is the essence of your usual leaning on the issues. If you can't dazzle 'em with brilliance, baffle 'em with bullshit.

     I'll have to say, right from the beginning, that I have my doubts about the politics of Evangelical/Pentecostal followers. Speaking in tongues, spiritual dancing... that's not an 'ad hominem' reaction on my part. That is a statement of opinion about something that I find is a barrier to any positive final outcome in a logical discourse.

     More? There's plenty more. Hold on to your Gideons!

     Try reading Christine Wicker's 'The Fall of the Evangelical Nation' (ref). It's a well documented fact that the evangelical church double, triple, and quadruple counts their members, creating a false image of their numbers, when in fact their flock is shrinking. And this is part of the base of supporters that divisively created an impression of religious dominance in our society preceding and during the G.W. Bush fiasco.

     So, can I go back to some ad hominem stuff? It's a lot more fun, and almost as easy to document. Ill minimize...promise. I must say, you are one hell of a typist. Heck of a job. I have to say, in conclusion, that I wondered why your knowledge of the history of the Jews was so good. Now I know. But, in doing further research, I found it biased. More later.

     Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 8:12pm

103. Since Israel is not going to commit suicide by giving in to Hamas, which demands the destruction and extermination of all Jews in the Middle East in their charter, the only way to have peace is for Israel to rid Gaza of Hamas. Anything else, like a cease fire, will only result in another war and another after that, in the oh so familar cycle. I can only conclude that is what the left really wants - endless war OR the destruction of the Jews, again.

     Posted by pyeatte at 01/11/2009 @ 8:15pm

104. I am not against the Jews, by any stretch, or at any point. But to say that what 'the left' really wants is the destruction of the jews just means that all the details are making your head hurt, so let's crassly generalize. Again.

     And when you are cornered by someone who has, and always WILL have military superiority, and when the final outcome of the situation is for YOU to comply with someone else's idea of their right to exist, which includes, by the way, becoming the old southern style negro at the beck and call of your masters... I'd do some crazy shit, too. This type of impasse generates crazy groups like Hamas. Neither of the sides are right, ultimately.

     I'd have to agree that it would really suck to live in Israel and have rockets dropping down on occasion. I can see where that would lead to a warlike hysteria.

     But the other side is backed into a corner, with nowhere to go. That generates unpredictable and unfathomable responses. I read about the Hebron massacres (there were three, to my suprise), and I saw a deeper reason for the insanity. In 1929 67 Jews were murdered by Arabs. And in 1994, 29 muslims were killed by one crazed jewish guy, Baruch Goldstein. A lot of people missed that one, because they were thinking, possibly, that the news was referring to the past atrocity. Then there was another one in 2002, perpetrated by muslims. Back and forth.

     So my conclusion is that there is no conclusion until you give these guys the same weapons, the same number of soldiers, the same training, and put them in a big arena and let them have at it. Or the world COULD become meaningfully involved in helping all of them out of the insanity and broker a lasting peace agreement.

     Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 8:49pm

105. War is not any more brutal now than before. We can all agree it's bad.

     Posted by twillie at 01/11/2009 @ 3:37pm

     actually, it seems you can't.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 8:57pm

106. Any military conflict between an Empire and indigenous people can not by definition be judged in fair and balanced terms.

     This would apply equally to coverage of the 'Wounded Knee Battle Victory" of American cavalry vs. native Americans, to the ruling-elite 'corporate financial Empire' controlling our country by hiding behind the facade of its two-party, 'Vichy' sham of democracy employing naive imperial troops against Fallujah residents, or the current situation with the Israeli element of this same global ruling-elite corporatist/fascist Empire using young citizen conscripts in the imperial IDF against Palestinians.

     Naturally, the political facade of shills fronting for the Empire will always vote as they are supposed to, in order to absolve their imperial paymasters of any responsibility for such slaughters. And any interlinked element of a global empire in one imperially controlled country will naturally support subordinate elements of the same empire in another.

     Posted by amacd at 01/11/2009 @ 9:03pm

107. Or the world COULD become meaningfully involved in helping all of them out of the insanity and broker a lasting peace agreement.

     Posted by ficheye at 01/11/2009 @ 8:49pm

     Maybe you've been dozing off but the closest thing to the "world" is the UN and it's been trying to broker a lasting peace agreement for.....how long?

     Sheer history ( Palestine, Rwanda, Afghanistan, Iraq, Darfur etc) tells us that the "world" is just hopeless at this sort of stuff. So we can screw that suggestion up and throw it in the rubbish bin.

     Apart from letting Israel sort out this mess itself, have you any more suggestions?

     Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 9:08pm

108. In nearly 4 years of posting here, I at least have always supported my arguments with documentation.

     Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 7:40pm

     you are the type of person jesus warned us about.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 9:09pm

109. Since Israel is not going to commit suicide by giving in to Hamas,

     Posted by pyeatte at 01/11/2009 @ 8:15pm

     they are going to piss off a lot of people and make this stupid world much stupider.

     thanks gov. of israel, you stupid mofos.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 9:11pm

110. Once again, the arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are not indigenous. Until 1964, they never claimed to be. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 9:06pm

     THAT'S IT!

     FUCK OFF YOU RACIST SCUMBAG!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 9:11pm

111. sorry larry, but enough is enough.

     you talk so cavalierly of the lives of so many.

     you are evil and god (may) pities you.

     sorry i forget the comma.....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 9:13pm

112. I can only conclude that is what the left really wants - endless war OR the destruction of the Jews, again.

     Posted by pyeatte at 01/11/2009 @ 8:15pm

     You can conclude all you want, and talk about endless war...now there's the pot calling the kettle black...do you not remember your man Bush, the biggest war monger of all!!! Destroy the Jews...what a stupid pathetic statement to make and can't we get over that holocaust excuse every darn time. Talk about milking something to death, it was a terrible thing no doubt but the deaths that have occurred under Israeli control over the years have been pretty high as well. We always have to return to the Holocaust as if that gives Israel the green light to do whatever they like as some kind of pay back

     Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 9:31pm

113. We may be at 900 dead Palestinians. We're certain to hit 4,000 wounded. Is there any degree of massacre or war crimes that would finally shock the conscience of Israel's supporters? I am left with the impression that the savages could launch nuclear weapons into Gaza and still, still, still, American supporters would rant about Israel's "right to exist".

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 9:52pm

114. Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 9:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Israel's crimes and Zionist colonial apartheid in general would never be condoned by the civilized world if Israelis couldn't claim to be Jewish. That sad people uses the Holocaust as a fig leaf.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 9:54pm

115. What other definition of "massacre" is imaginable?

     " ... Medical sources said that dozens of Palestinian fighters were killed in clashes on Sunday, taking the total number of Palestinian deaths since Israel began its war to 890, about a quarter of them children.

     Almost 4,000 Palestinians have also been wounded since the beginning of the offensive.

     Thirteen Israelis have been killed since the military offensive began, including three civilians hit by rockets fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel ..."

     http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/20 09/01/200911211753589605.html

     We can never forget this. We can never forgive Israel, not for one day, not for one minute. This barbaric assault on the people of Gaza, in order to get Tzipi Livni elected, was the point in time in which Israel's mandate of sacred victimhood expired. From this turning point in history, moving forward, they are just another rogue nation; thieves of land, thieves of water, piggish people living at the top of an apartheid regime.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 9:59pm

116. From this day forward, let us all never forget - Israel is a disgusting nation.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 10:00pm

117. " ... Thirteen Israelis have been killed since the military offensive began, including three civilians hit by rockets fired from the Gaza Strip into Israel ..."

     Only three Israeli civilians have been killed by rocket fire since this barbaric assault was initiated, and prior to that, only 20 since 2001 according to Israeli media.

     They've murdered 250 children in just over two weeks.

     This is a barbaric and savage people.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 10:02pm

118. This is a barbaric and savage people.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 10:02pm

     I agree with you entirely, there is no comparison with the amount of death's in Israel compared to the hundreds in Gaza and it's astounding that people refuse to see that. Most sensible people see how bent on destroying Gaza that Israel is and yet these ardent supporter's of Israel condone every last move they make. I guess because Jesus was named "King of the Jews" that has given them total authority to take control of the Middle East.

     Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 10:22pm

119. Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 10:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     The issue is not simply "the destruction of Gaza". What the Israelis are trying to do is brutally beat into the Palestinians that they are a beaten people. The Israelis are trying to brutally destroy the will of those people to resist having their lands taken from them and to cause those people to simply accept living as subjects in an apartheid regime, powerless and broken. This is pure state terrorism we are seeing.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 10:32pm

120. This is pure state terrorism we are seeing.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/11/2009 @ 10:32pm

     When we use the word terrorism it seems it can only be applied to Hamas but you are right terrorism comes from Israel also, but very few will equate what they do as terrorism....they are just "defending" themselves!!! Don't quite understand that myself, I regard what Palestine is doing is just "defending" itself also!!

     Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 10:53pm

121. "The Catholic Church didn't find Galileo's arguments very convincing either, lr. Chomsky's main contention was that oil interests, not the Israel Lobby, drive US Middle Eastern policy. Mearshimer counters that while there is substantial evidence to the support the influence of the Israel Lobby on US policy, there is little or none to support Chomsky's thesis."

     Maybe I am missing something here, but I could swear that at least some portion of the military uses oil. Also, and more importantly, I think John Foster Dulles wrote about how important controlling oil is to US interests, and whatever one wants to make of that term "US interests", it seems very clear that we use Israel very well towards achieving that end. If Israrel is in fact controlling US policy, why did they ask Bush if they could bomb Iran, and when he said no, they didn't?

     LuvLiberty, I would assume since you advocate the very Christian attitude of blowing the shit out of everybody with whom you disagree, you would notice that Israel has the superior military--largely funded by the US--and that overcomes numbers very easily. Perhaps I slept through my history classes, but I am pretty sure there were a fair amount of folks here before white people came along--way more than those white people. Crafty Jews indeed.

     Posted by onthehelm at 01/11/2009 @ 11:32pm

122. larry,

     sorry if my wordage was brusque.

     it's just that the one-sidedness of your cold heart dismays me.

     why wait for "the arabs" to help the gazans when YOU can help them?

     once again, excuse my words. frustration can make one icky at times.

     maybe you could get in touch with these folks:

     http://www.christianaid.org.uk/

     lefties, i suppose you'll call them.... but haven't they too been guided by the word of jesus (peace be upon all of us)?

     remember, arabs plant gardens, too.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:37pm

123. but larry,

     what do six year olds know of our foibles? why should they bear our burdens?

     perhaps you could help them....

     (and what responsibility does ANY resident of ANY place truly bear for the actions of its so called "government"?)

     should i blame YOU for the current economic ruin?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:46pm

124. and thanks for your patience.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/11/2009 @ 11:47pm

125. and larry,

     this is frosty's take on this nonsense:

     making israel in the 40's was just one really dumb thing. a relic of colonialism. maybe even worse than iraq. maybe even worse than the checkerboard called AFRICA.

     but there they are. and in many ways,

     (if one can ignore the displacement of an indigenous population, which, of course for people with hearts, is a REALLY, REALLY HARD thing to do)

     the arabs are lucky to have these hardworking, welleducated, folks of good character in their FRONT yard. money keeps people happy, and the israelis could become the epicentre of a thriving regional economy.

     but no,

     we've got to quibble over control of

     MOUNDS OF ROCKS THAT ONE IS LUCKY IF THEY CAN HARVEST ENOUGH OLIVES FROM TO BUY BREAD FOR 3 MONTHS.

     everybody blahblahs "1967", so let's 1967. the israelis will have enough and the REST OF THE WORLD WILL GO "AAAAAAAAAHHHHHH".

     i bet it would even send the DJIA above 23,000.

     i just want six year old to stop being eviscerated. don't you?

     i don't care which wacky old book their parents "believe",

     it's not their fault.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 12:02am

126. We must never forget, none of us, just how cheaply these Israeli savages regard human life. This atrocity we are all witnessing was completely needless and rooted in the most cynical and wicked of motivations., the personal ambitions of certain figures in this barbaric Israeli regime to be elected in February.

     900 people have been murdered, 4000 injured, and these poor desperate people living on that little strip of land have had every vestige of civil society that they managed to construct for themselves in an open-air prison camp destroyed by these senseless, racist brutes from Tel Aviv in modern American military gear.

     Which we give to them, with our money and labor.

     We must never forget this, and never forgive this. These Israelis no longer have any moral standing whatsoever.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/12/2009 @ 12:18am

127. Posted by comanchenation at 01/12/2009 @ 12:13am | ignore this person | warn this person

     A poll now has shown that the majority of self-identified Democratic voters disapprove of the Israeli action. Many Democratic voters continue to point out that the party officials in general abrogate their relationships to their base upon taking office. This mindless, stupid support for Israel - bought from the campaign contribution and lobbying dollars of various parties including rich American Jews - is essentially tyrannical in nature. My tax dollars are used to slaughter innocents so that colonial racists and religious fanatics who believe that a nation that was eliminated by the Roman empire can be recreated on land taken from a people whom they continue to horribly abuse. It's a sick, sick situation.

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/12/2009 @ 12:22am

128. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 10:49pm

     Dear Larry,

     "Actions are held to be good or bad, not on their own merits, but according to who does them. There is almost no kind of outrage-----torture, imprisonment without trial, assassination, the bombing of civilians-----which does not change its moral color when it is committed by 'our' side. The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." -----George Orwell

     Sorry, Larry. Now that I realize just where you get your information, let the games begin. Cut and paste, biblical obsessions... Mask has known just how crazy you are for a long time, methinks. Jesus would be pissed about all this hijacking of his worldview. and Frosty, don't be sorry about telling this guy that he's a racist scumbag... he believes in the rapture, the apocalypse, and miracles, etc. the world could end and he'd like it, right Larry? Anyone with a computer could go online and find lots of stuff that supports their worldview. But I noticed that you did not respond to the information I posted about two of your news sources. I guess that it didn't leave much room for debate. So there's no defense regarding those sources. Just back to the 'baffle 'em with bullshit theme...

     And about using the Koran and other sources in your posts. You know as well as I that it's just obfuscation, eye candy of supposed political correctness on the way to making your point about the apocalypse.

     And finally... Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 9:08pm I don't remember saying anything about the United Nations, effectively neutered by the US. I mean for the world to ACTUALLY come up with something workable, besides blowing up Palestine, where you and Larry dwell.

     Posted by ficheye at 01/12/2009 @ 01:37am

129. "We must never forget this, and never forgive this. These Israelis no longer have any moral standing whatsoever."

     " It's a sick, sick situation."

     Posted by syfriendly at 01/12/2009 @ 12:22am

     Looks like you better get used to it sy for the next 4 or 8 years anyway.

     Someone posted here sometime ago that Dems are a lot dumber that the other side? But is that disability reason enough to rat on "the changer we needed".

     Not sure if this was before or after Mr. Obama got paid off:

     "Mr. Obama has been clear in making a distinction between his willingness to talk "not just to countries we like, but those we don't," as he puts it, and Hamas and other political movements similar to it. "Hamas is not a state," Mr. Obama told a Jewish group last month. "Hamas is a terrorist organization."

     "Responding to Mr. McCain's accusations in an interview with CNN on Thursday, Mr. Obama elaborated on that position. He again called Hamas a terrorist group and said that "we should not talk to them unless they recognize Israel, renounce violence and are willing to abide by previous accords" that Israel has negotiated with its neighbors and with the Palestine Liberation Organization."

     "That is not a new position for Mr. Obama. In 2006, he, like Mr. McCain, was a co-sponsor of the Palestinian Anti-Terrorism Act, which called on "members of the international community to avoid contact with and refrain from financially supporting the terrorist organization Hamas" until it met all of the same requirements that Mr. Obama enumerated again on Thursday".

     http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24549744/

     Posted by lrjones4 at 01/12/2009 @ 01:55am

130. And finally... Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 9:08pm I don't remember saying anything about the United Nations, effectively neutered by the US. I mean for the world to ACTUALLY come up with something workable, besides blowing up Palestine, where you and Larry dwell.

     Posted by ficheye at 01/12/2009 @ 01:37am

     You didn't F but as that is the only "the world" presently in existence I was just having a guess but I would be rapt if your "the world" would come forward and "come up" with something.

     As you may be aware my "the world" made a resolution along the lines, " would you please stop fighting one another" to which Hamas and Israel responded, get stuffed, in Arabic, Hebrew and English, as far as I know.

     Perhaps your "the World" could try a different word form. It could work. Who knows?

     Posted by lrjones4 at 01/12/2009 @ 02:48am

131. Once again, the arabs living in the West Bank and Gaza are not indigenous. Until 1964, they never claimed to be. Posted by lvliberty1 at 01/11/2009 @ 9:06pm

     You keep saying that larry. But just saying it over and over does not make it true. I know that is a beloved right wing tactic. Keep repeating the lie and sooner or later people may believe. I think it was Joseph Goebbels who made a statement to that effect.

     The Palestinian people are in fact indigenous to the area. Even indigenous to the specific area of Gaza depending on what century you look at. In the 5th century as defined by the Byzantine Empire the area of Palaestina was quite large, from Raphia in the south to the Litani river in what is now Lebanon to the north. The west boundary was the sea and the east boundary was anywhere from the Jordan river to slightly east of Amman.

     But no matter what century you look at the palestinian people have been in the general area for a long long time. So if "indigenous" describes any people at all, the palestinians would have a shot at defining the term.

     Posted by chaoszen at 01/12/2009 @ 04:36am

132. All I want is for them to be pushed out of Gaza,

     Posted by Caj at 01/11/2009 @ 4:03pm

     Why? So that the Palestinians can rearm and then continue their terrorist bombing campaign on innocent civilian populations in "peace"? That is what you want isn't it? You want "peace" right?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 01/12/2009 @ 06:54am

133. Well, if those Congresspeople voted based on what "The Nation" wanted...half would vote to start a blockade of Israel and National Give-A-Hug-To-Hamas Day...the other half would vote to approve the nuking of Gaza and to start tatooing the arms of all Arabs.

     Regardless they voted 390-5 and if the American people were truly outraged, then no amount of "AIPAC power" would save them from challengers in 2010.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 07:21am

134. Regardless they voted 390-5 and if the American people were truly outraged, then no amount of "AIPAC power" would save them from challengers in 2010.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 07:21am

     AIPAC POWER works in the media, too!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 08:19am

135. Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 08:19am

     Fine, FROSTY. Even die-hard liberals in Bluest of Blue Congressional districts cannot stand against its awesome power and any challenger in a primary or general election gets crushed like a bug by how AIPAC controls WXYZ-TV Channel 23 in Podcast, Massachusetts and every other station in America.

     AIPAC is the Illuminati.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 08:44am

136. You are right. The vote of the majority of Congress clouds the acts of a few thoughtful legislators. Thanks for pointing this out. See Global Investment Watch's post at http://globalinvestmentwatch.com/2009/01/12/pelosi-extends-her-support-f or-gaza/

     Posted by Jcrich53 at 01/12/2009 @ 08:59am

137. obviously not, mask.

     do you, however, believe AIPAC to hold the power to sway congressional (and on a more "subtle" level, media) decision making?

     as to the american people, go ask them. they watched cnn and abc and fox.* they "know" who's to blame.

     *17% that is. the rest watched wwe and tmz. 'cept those who watch 24. they are the truly informed.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 09:24am

138. Why? So that the Palestinians can rearm and then continue their terrorist bombing campaign on innocent civilian populations in "peace"? That is what you want isn't it? You want "peace" right?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 01/12/

     Israel whether you like it or not are terrorists also...just because you and others like you support them whole heartedly does not make them any less of a terrorist nation. Israel are also bombing innocent civilians in Gaza, or I suppose you see them as ALL terrorists!!! So, no Israel don't hold the keys to being the peace makers here they are the biggest aggressor and they need to be stopped with their atrocious acts of occupying Gaza and taking control of something that does not belong to them. You can defend them all you want, but I will denounce their actions alongside many many other people who feel the same way on this conflict.

     Posted by Caj at 01/12/2009 @ 09:35am

139. If terrorism is defined (as I think could make sense) as the deliberate targeting of civilians, I think the argument gets interesting because it seems to sit right on the bleeding-over point between knowing civilians will get killed and intentionally killing them. At the same time, though, terrorism usually ALSO means that you're deliberately FORSAKING military targets in favor of civilian ones. Though I think it may be arguable, I think that Israel's actions probably fall in the terrorism category. As some have said, in an area this densely populated, it's very difficult to see how you can justify airstrikes.

     Posted by Thrawn at 01/12/2009 @ 10:17am

140. Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 09:24am

     Sure. I'm not denying they are influential.

     But a 390-5 vote can also mean that those 390 Reps (many in Blue-Blue districts) don't see an electorate that comes down on the "syfriendly/rykart" side of the aisle on Israel-Palestine.

     A realization that needs to be acknowledged. The LVLIB "Israel is all of Gaza and the West Bank too and anything they want to do to get it back is fine with me" attitude is a fringe position with most Americans...but a "Hamas are just like George Washington and Patrick Henry" attitude is JUST as fringey.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 10:25am

141. I watched Newt Gingrich on Stephanopolis's show and he pretty much summed it up as "Let them fight it out!" Our interference is just prolonging the war and each time it starts with improved weapons. The ones at the negotiating table are absent. Iran should be talking to Israel not the U.S. The Saudi's should be at the table with Israel as they are financing Hizballah and Hamas. The U.S. being the middle man has got to stop! The job of negotiation and occupation should be the U.N. and Peacekeepers from the U.N. to stop the activities of the terrorist groups! If that can't be managed, let Israel tromp on their heads til the terrorist groups have had all the terror they can deal with and THEY ask for U.N. Help!

     Posted by RITEON at 01/12/2009 @ 10:36am

142. Mask,

     You said above ".......gets crushed like a bug by how AIPAC controls WXYZ-TV Channel 23 in Podcast, Massachusetts"

     Mask, you were saying this in a reply to Frosty Zoom......the wrong person to be telling this to..

     Frosty, watching televison over in Windsor, could tell you that WXYZ is on Channel 7 in Detroit. Frosty probably won't do that, so I will.

     Truthiness, Mask.

     http://www.wxyz.com/default.aspx

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 10:43am

143. syfriendly,

     You say (repeatedly) "We must never forget this, and never forgive this."

     sy, who is "We"?

     Speak for yourself, or define who "We" are.

     Don't include me, in your we, unless you are saying that we should not forget or forgive the Hamas murderers who seek to destroy Israel.

     Since you are saying the opposite, don't include me in your "we".

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 10:46am

144. 'Samuel Joseph Wurzelbacher, aka "Joe the Plumber," is currently in Israel covering the war for the conservative site PJTV.com. When asked what he has learned from his new experiences as a journalist, Wurzelbacher said that he believes the media shouldn't be allowed to do "reporting" on wars:

     I'll be honest with you. I don't think journalists should be anywhere allowed war. I mean, you guys report where our troops are at. You report what's happening day to day. You make a big deal out of it. I think it's asinine. You know, I liked back in World War I and World War II when you'd go to the theater and you'd see your troops on, you know, the screen and everyone would be real excited and happy for'em. Now everyone's got an opinion and wants to downer–and down soldiers. You know, American soldiers or Israeli soldiers.

     I think media should be abolished from, uh, you know, reporting. You know, war is hell. And if you're gonna sit there and say, "Well look at this atrocity," well you don't know the whole story behind it half the time, so I think the media should have no business in it.'

     Watch it:

     http://thinkprogress.org/2009/01/11/joe-plumber-media/

     Hear no evil - see no evil. What a wonderful spokesman for the Lobby. Of course, MSM agrees pretty much wholeheartedly. Apparently NBC thinks its okay to allow "war commercials" sympathetic for Israel however. "You must stand by Israel" -

     Posted by OneVote at 01/12/2009 @ 10:57am

145. 5. That I don't care about palestinian christians.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 11:11am

146. Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 10:25am

     Mask, I agree with your central point that there is no political cost for voting this way for the vast majority in Congress.

     I called mine up and focused on the humanitarian crisis and Congress's inability or unwillingness to provide adequete oversight on the laws they have created, i.e., the Arms Export and Control Act, FISA, etc. But I know that's a minority voice sandwiched in-between Zionists and anti-semites.

     Posted by RITEON at 01/12/2009 @ 10:36am

     What does it mean to let them "fight it out", when the U.S. is providing billions in military aid to Israel? And why is it that so-called "conservatives" love proxy wars, so much? Because that means they don't have to get their hands dirty?

     Posted by srjenkins at 01/12/2009 @ 11:20am

147. Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 10:43am

     SJCHER, "WXYZ" was a hypothetical example. Not referring to the REAL "WXYZ" in Detroit, but a generic local TV station and "How the heck does AIPAC control them?"....I could have used "WUSA" (in D.C.) or WMUR-TV in New Hampshire...or WOOT-TV for the "leets" out there in gamer world.

     Truthiness is where you believe something "in your gut" regardless of the facts. And is a staple of ditto-heads like yourself, even to the point of contradiction.

     Here endeth the lesson.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 11:48am

148. 'They quote the experience of a Senate candidate who was invited to visit AIPAC early in his campaign for "discussions". Harry Lonsdale described what followed as "an experience I will never forget. It wasn't enough that I was pro-Israel. I was given a list of vital topics and quizzed (read grilled) for my specific opinion on each. Actually, I was told what my opinion must be . . . Shortly after that . . . I was sent a list of American supporters of Israel . . . that I was free to call for campaign contributions. I called; they gave from Florida to Alaska".'

     Excerpt:

     From The Sunday TimesSeptember 2, 2007

     The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy By John J Mearsheimer and Stephen M Walt Reviewed by Max Hastings

     Is it any wonder that we get perverse resolutions from the Senate and the House.

     Posted by OneVote at 01/12/2009 @ 11:51am

149. It was a U.N. resolution. Designed to stop the use of depleted uranium munitions. Scientists already know what Uranium-238 does to people. Depleted uranium is mainly Uranium-238 and has a half life of 4.46 billion years. And the U.S. military has used it extensively in Iraq from the 1991 Gulf war to the present. The health effects of DU are tragic. And Iraq if fairly glowing with background radiation due to it's use. Posted by chaoszen at 01/11/2009 @ 5:05p

     I'm sorry. You said the US voted against a resolution to "update research". Were you being intentionally misleading? Here is the text below. It sounds like a rather pointless resolution. But, it did pass. "Communicating views" is hardly updating research.

     "invite Member States and relevant international organizations, particularly those that had not yet done so, to communicate their views on the effects of the use of armaments and ammunitions containing depleted uranium."

     Posted by twillie at 01/12/2009 @ 12:01pm

150. Mask,

     There is no "lesson"

     I know you were just making up a hypothetical example, and I was just engaging in some sarcasm to call you on it.......because.....

     You are pulling out of your rear end or some other leftists' rear end this unadulterated nonsense about AIPAC controlling the media.

     I do not even know who AIPAC are.

     The only thing I do know about them is they are cited many times on leftist web sites as the reason for much of the support for Israel in this country.

     Which I am sure is unadulterated nonsense.

     The left and left webs are full to overflowing with all kinds of "theories", "blame" and "conspiracies" all revolving around the "wrong" that the left thinks is being perpertrated upon this country and the world by (fill in the blank- depending upon the situation).

     So now you and others will post back and declare how ignorant I am because I do not see this or I am believing Rush instead of the "truth" or whatever.

     Game On!

     Rather than that, since you came up with a name of a real station, let's use that.

     I challenge you or some other leftist, even Frosty Zoom over in Windsor, to show CONCRETE examples of how AIPAC controls WXYZ Television Channel 7 in Detroit.

     If some leftists finds somewhere that AIPAC has contributed to something that is connected to whoever owns channel 7, don't bother submitting that as proof!

     INSUFFICIENT.

     I need to see a CONCRETE EXAMPLE of how whatever some leftist pulls up (if there is anything pulled up at all) AFFECTED how Channel 7 WXYZ covered something, or how it affects their coverage of ongoing recurring stories or the content that is broadcast on that station.

     Let's get busy Mask, put your money where your mouth is!!!

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 12:38pm

151. I do not even know who AIPAC are.

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 12:38pm

     your ignorance is their bliss.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 12:58pm

152. sjchermak-Many on the far right,also,believe that Jews control the media and the world.Not just a far left thing.As always,there is little difference between the far left and far right.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 01/12/2009 @ 1:12pm

153. a hero:

     IDF reservist refuses to fight in Gaza over civilian deaths

     By Anshel Pfeffer, Haaretz Correspondent

     An Israel Defense Forces reserves soldier, taking part in Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip which entered its 17th day on Monday, has refused to enter the Hamas-ruled territory along with his unit in protest of the killing of Palestinian civilians.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 1:18pm

154. Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 12:38pm

     SJ-

     1. I was MOCKING my friend Frosty in my post, not endorsing his view. Your lack of a sense of irony is now noted.

     2. Your ignorance of AIPAC is also noted. First "1984" now AIPAC? Do you know ANYTHING outside of what you hear from Noon to 3pm EST???

     3. Your devotion to Rush has been noted on many occasions...the most obvious example being your inability to name ONE thing that Limbaugh has ever been wrong on when it comes to policy matters.

     Humorless, ignorant, and cultish is no way to go through life, son....to paraphrase Dean Wormer.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 1:23pm

155. YE SHALL PAY FOR THY MOCKAGE!

     (i ain't crazy mask. but we all know money talks and aipac's got money.)

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 1:28pm

156. I have always been a supporter for Israel but lately am getting my doubts! First, the whole Gaza situation starts reminding me about the Nazis and the Warsaw Ghetto. I don't think I have to go any further. Second, I start wondering who is shaping our foreign policies? We or AIPAG? Third, What about free press? My support for Israel is getting shorter and maybe I need to pay more attention at the next election.

     Posted by joekj at 01/12/2009 @ 1:38pm

157. It is well-known that the two largest American telecom companies AT&T and Verizon collaborated with the US government to allow illegal eavesdropping on their customers. The known uses to which information obtained this way has been put include building the government's massive secret "watch lists," and "no-fly lists" and even, Bamford suggests, to deny Small Business Administration loans to citizens or reject their children's applications to military colleges.

     What is less well-known is that AT&T and Verizon handed "the bugging of their entire networks -- carrying billions of American communications every day" to two companies founded in Israel. Verint and Narus, as they are called, are "superintrusive -- conducting mass surveillance on both international and domestic communications 24/7," and sifting traffic at "key Internet gateways" around the US. Virtually all US voice and data communications and much from the rest of the world can be remotely accessed by these companies in Israel, which Bamford describes as "the eavesdropping capital of the world." Although there is no way to prove cooperation, Bamford writes that "the greatest potential beneficiaries of this marriage between the Israeli eavesdroppers and America's increasingly centralized telecom grid are Israel's intelligence agencies."

     Israel's spy agencies have long had a revolving-door relationship with Verint and Narus and other Israeli military-security firms. The relationship is particularly close between the firms and Israel's own version of the NSA, called "Unit 8200." After the 11 September attacks, Israeli companies seeking a share of massively expanded US intelligence budgets formed similarly incestuous relationships with some in the American intelligence establishment: http://www.countercurre

     Posted by OneVote at 01/12/2009 @ 1:50pm

158. Exerpt from (previous post)

     http://www.countercurrents.org/abunimah051108.htm

     Posted by OneVote at 01/12/2009 @ 1:51pm

159. Mask,

     1. I gave you an assignment, you are procrastinating.

     2. What in God's name does Rush Limbaugh have to do with you, me, Frosty Zoom, Windsor Ontario, Detroit Michigan, AIPAC, or WXYZ televsion channel 7?

     3. You are the one obsessed with Rush, not me. I just listen to him when I get a chance, which is not often, and I go to his website almost every day, but I am not obsessed with him. You, on the other hand, seem to be quite obsessed with him.

     4. Your comments and others indicate how ignorant I am about AIPAC. But, since it does not appear to me that AIPAC controls the media, it may well be that AIPAC does not control the media, otherwise a lot of people in this country would be commenting on it.

     5. Since item 4 is not the case, it would appear that this obsession with AIPAC is another figment of the left's imagination.

     6. I'm nobody says that many on the far right also believe that Jews control the media. Anti-semetic consipiracy theories are WRONG no matter what direction they come from...But I am on a far left website right now so that is why I am taking issue with what far leftists say about the subject.

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 1:58pm

160. sjchermak-It's best to take issue with anyone who expresses paranoid views no matter what site you are on.If one reads your posts one assumes that you do not know what is going on in the real world if you only mention the left.Besides,it makes for good discussions to point out that the far left,KKK,and Aryan nations are all in complete agreement when it comes to this subject.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 01/12/2009 @ 2:14pm

161. i'm nobody,

     Knock off the B.S. and instructions.

     This started because I took issue with Mask's comments on a leftist web site.

     I am tired of leftists laying down requirements about discourse.

     I said up above already that anti-Semetic consipracy theories are wrong no matter which direction of the political spectrum they come from or if they come from some place that is so off the wall it defies classification, such as Arayn nation wackos or skinheads or KKK or wherever.

     So I already did what you told me "it is best to do"

     The reality, incidental to this, is that The Nation is pretty much the only place I get involved in blogs, arguing with libs and defending Conservatism.

     So there is no other "site" to take this subject on, that I GO TO in order to blog.

     There are only so many hours in the day and like most people I have a job and other responsiblites and do not spend the entire day blogging.

     I am not going to claim that I have never posted on some other site, but not very often.

     The last post elsewhere was a couple of weeks ago on the CBC web site.... in the blog associated with the Hockey Night in Canada "Coaches Corner" segment by Don Cherry.

     Was I supposed to have brought this subject up there?

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 2:42pm

162. Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 7:20pm

     "John not sure what the Heisenberg uncertainty principle has to do with it .... However if you wish to show how Heisenberg helps I'm interested."

     The application of the Uncertainty Principle is rightly made here in that it's tenets make clear that there is no such thing as a "disinterested observer", the criteria you were requiring of Tony Judt before you would entertain seriously his take on the Lobby. Heisenberg demonstrated that a subject cannot approach an experiment without himself uniquely effecting its outcome. If the results of an experiment always register the mark of the one performing it, one reasons back with merit to the idea that "objectivity", so called, is therefore a myth, an abstraction, with no basis in the real world. If it were otherwise, there would be no evidence of the presence of the subject in the outcome.

     "I think you are too pre-occupied with the US "academia" experience in contrast to the greater academic freedom to criticise Israel in Europe but that is not where the support, that matters, comes from but rather from governments."

     My concerns are with the slavery that has been imposed upon our Middle Eastern policy and our political life by the Lobby, nothing more and nothing less, lr.

     Posted by lrjones4 at 01/11/2009 @ 7:20pm

     Posted by john lowell at 01/12/2009 @ 2:55pm

163. sjchermak-What leftist is laying down requirements about discourse?Do you know what a leftist is?I was just trying to get you to get your facts straight rather than do your usual leftist thing, which only shows ignorance on your part.The reason that you only want to mention leftists, rather than all with such views, is so you can make it seem that only the left has such views when that is not the case.This type of paranoia is quite common amongst both the far left and far right and is best to look at reality rather than just point the finger at one side, as you do.

     Posted by i'm nobody at 01/12/2009 @ 2:56pm

164. 3. You are the one obsessed with Rush, not me. I just listen to him when I get a chance, which is not often, and I go to his website almost every day, but I am not obsessed with him. You, on the other hand, seem to be quite obsessed with him.----Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 1:58pm

     Okay, then answer my now WEEKS old question, SJCHER, since you are not a "Rush cultist"....

     Can you name ONE erroneous policy that Rush Limbaugh has espoused or endorsed?

     Even among conservatives there are differences...unless....

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 3:27pm

165. Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 1:28pm

     Not enough to buy up time on every TV station in every district, FROSTY.

     There are more than 5 dyed-in-the-wool liberals in the US House. What the others so afraid of from from the "AIPAC Media"?!???!?

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 3:29pm

166. i'm nobody,

     You asked "sjchermak-What leftist is laying down requirements about discourse?"

     ANSWER: You

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 3:47pm

167. Mask,

     Relax. You question is idiotic, and I am not going to answer it.

     And don't forget - I do not care what conclusions you draw or bloviate about, about me, as a result of my not answering your question.

     So, relax. Then get started with your post all about WXYZ channel 7.

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 3:49pm

168. You question is idiotic

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 3:49pm

     hahahahaha

     Posted by frosty zoom at 01/12/2009 @ 4:22pm

169. Relax. You question is idiotic, and I am not going to answer it.----Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 3:49pm

     LOL...that is pretty funny.

     BTW, the answer is "Nothing", SJCHER. Rush is always right and always was.....

     but...you're not a huge fan or nothing, barely listen, peruse the website every now and then. Any idea that you're a toe-the-line ditto-head is a false assumption on our part, of course.

     Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 4:39pm

170. Posted by john lowell at 01/12/2009 @ 2:55pm

     I thought you may not have known what the Heisenberg uncertainty principle was and that you were trying to "fool us with science", however John I see your point and give you a pass, except that bias seems to be a more applicable term when we are dealing with larger bodies.

     It is, I suggest, a matter of degree in how much bias is involved (permissible?) and that, going by this discussion, is compounded by the likelihood that the amount of bias one detects in others depends upon one's own biases.

     Even given that convoluted qualification I would have been more comfortable if Judt had not been a former starry eyed supporter of the Zionist project. That sort tends to be the most rabid of revolutionaries. (That I trust is a relatively unbiased observation).

     That academics of similar intellectual abilities can take opposite positions on most issues, including this one, probably gives some credence to your application of Heisenberg's principle, whether applied to the promulgators or the recipients.

     Posted by lrjones4 at 01/12/2009 @ 4:48pm

171. Mask,

     You as you well know asked the question above "Can you name ONE erroneous policy that Rush Limbaugh has espoused or endorsed? "

     I had told you I was not going to answer your question. And I did not intend to. But I do now have an answer for you.

     Trust me, I did not go out of my way to provide you an answer....

     I was at Rush's site today (getting my daily instructions on how to proceed tomorrow) when I came across the following:

     ===========

     Story #6: Pittsburgh Steelers Become Bird Exterminators

     RUSH: Ladies and gentlemen, I was fortunate yesterday: I had the privilege of trodding the hallowed ground at Heinz Field in Pittsburgh, where the Pittsburgh Steelers at least maintained sanity in an NFL season as a home team winning a playoff game. Go Steelers! They're up next against the Crips and the Bloods, the Baltimore Ravens next Sunday at 6:30 in Pittsburgh at Heinz Field. The Steelers have become bird exterminators now. They play the Ravens on Sunday and then they'll face in the Super Bowl either the Arizona Cardinals or the Philadelphia Eagles. Trust me, the powers that be are hoping for the Eagles in the Super Bowl in Tampa, Florida. It was a great, great game yesterday. It was spitting snow in Pittsburgh, and about 25 degrees. The Steelers finally were healthy, and all phases of their game were put back into Steelers football, back to norm. It was a great, great day.

     =====================

     I do like the Steelers. But, and I have mentioned this on The Nation website, I am a Baltimore Ravens fan.

     Thus, the Steelers are not going to be "Bird Exterminators". They will be sitting at their homes on Super Bowl Sunday, watching the Ravens play the Eagles.

     You have an answer now, Mask-- hopefully this will keep you happy for a while.

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 8:54pm

172. Posted by Mask at 01/12/2009 @ 11:48am

     "Truthiness is where you believe something "in your gut" regardless of the facts. And is a staple of ditto-heads like yourself, even to the point of contradiction.

     Here endeth the lesson."

     Posted by sjchermak at 01/12/2009 @ 12:38pm

     "You are pulling out of your rear end or some other leftists' rear end this unadulterated nonsense about AIPAC controlling the media.

     I do not even know who AIPAC are."

     "The only thing I do know about them is..."

     "Which I am sure is unadulterated nonsense..."

     -------------

     Sorry, that was too funny to not repost.

     I won't comment further, as I am attempting not to engage in a war of wits, with an unarmed man.

     Posted by Malcontent at 01/12/2009 @ 10:13pm