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RedditOn the eve of the last Senate election of 2008, a still-campaigning Sarah Palin declared: "You Georgians are going to have the opportunity to determine the direction this country is going to take."
The Georgians blinked.
Instead of stepping into the 21st century with most of the rest of the country – including the southern states of Virginia and North Carolina, both of which backed Barack Obama for president and replaced Republican senators with Democrats – Georgia opted for the past.
Republican incumbent Saxby Chambliss has easily defeated Democratic challenger Jim Martin in an exceptionally low turnout election.
No, Tuesday's vote did not, as Alaska's ambitious governor suggested, determine the direction of the nation in any fundamental sense. Democrats still will control the White House and both houses of Congress next year.
But the man Georgians have returned to the Senate will be on the wrong side of the debate about changing Washington.
Chambliss, who won his first Senate term by attacking the patriotism of Vietnam veteran Max Cleland, who had lost three limbs while in the service of his country, served one term as unreconstructed corporatist whose greatest loyalty was and is to Wall Street. Now, after waging an only slightly-less-creepy campaign that promised to thwart Barack Obama's initiatives, he will serve another.
That's disappointing.
Even more disappointing is the fact that Georgia rejected Martin, an able "new south" Democrat who would have been a heavy lifter in the new Senate.
Hailed for his work on health care and education issues, Martin focused his runoff campaigning on a pledge to aid President-elect Barack Obama. The Democrat hoped that Obama backers would return to the polls to reinforce their November 4 votes. But without a campaign swing by the president-elect, Democratic turnout was diminished.
Martin, a former legislator who won the endorsements of many Georgia newspapers in a race with an incumbent who was never accused of being ethical, was able to keep the Chambliss vote below 50 percent on November 4. That forced the runoff election, and held out the possibility that Georgia, a state once thought to have been lost to blank-stare conservatism, might actually wade into the political present.
It was not to be.
With voter turnout down dramatically from last month – when the presidential election was also on the ballot – Georgians handed Chambliss a 58-42 win over Martin.
This was a setback for Democrats. The party needed 60 seats to attain a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. Its Senate caucus now includes 58 members (56 Democrats and independents Bernie Sanders of Vermont and Joe Lieberman of Connecticut). Democrats might yet get to 59 Senate seats, if Minnesota's Al Franken beats Republican incumbent Norm Coleman in an ongoing recount of that state's exceptionally close contest. But, without Martin, the party won't get to 60 anytime soon.
Tuesday's result is welcome news for Republicans, who will now be positioned to block at least some action in the Senate – for so long as GOP the party's 40, perhaps 41, senators in line.
But it's not all good news for the Republicans.
The Georgia result will create new pressures on GOP moderates, such as Pennsylvania's Arlen Specter, Maine's Olympia Snowe and Susan Collins, and possibly Ohio's George Voinovich, to join Democrats in blocked filibusters. For Specter and Voinovich, both of whom face what could be difficult 2010 reelection races in states that were won by Obama, it may be hard to say no to the president.
In other words, while the Senate is not formally filibuster-proof, Obama and the Democrats should still be able to move legislation and win approval of nominees for Cabinet posts and judgeships.
Thus, the real disappointment is a more parochial one. Georgia had an opportunity to redeem itself after choosing Chambliss over Cleland in 2002 – when the state's voters endorsed one of the uglier campaigns in the history of senatorial politicking.
Martin would, indeed, have been a redemptive senator.
Unfortunately, Georgia and the rest of the country will have to live with six more years of – to quote Palin – "Saxby. Saxby. Saxby."
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It is so dispiriting to find out you voted for a Messiah and wound up with a politician. You poor, dear fools.
Posted by jean22 at 12/02/2008 @ 11:05pm
Not me. I voted for a better politician, and that's what I got. Not the one I wanted by a long shot, but a better one than those in power.
Posted by onthehelm at 12/02/2008 @ 11:37pm
I'm pleased that there is no democrat super majority. Nor a republican super majority.
Our nation is split. Peace is in the center, not on the fringe. But, dang, the fringe is fun to debate, isn't it?
Here. Not in Congress.
Posted by freiheit1 at 12/03/2008 @ 12:31am
Too bad it has to be such an utter scumbag like Chambliss, though. A true bit of obscenity, he appears to have absolutely no redeeming social qualities. Just another fascist chickenhawk, he actually got away with questioning Max Cleland's patriotism? Well, we are most certainly not all Georgians - of any stripe.
Posted by jmusolino at 12/03/2008 @ 01:38am
Oh, and Larry, your GOP has absolutely no mandate to be their usual whiney, foot-stamping, pouting obstructionist selves. While it may rankle you and the rest of the righties no end, the mandate rests with President Obama and his party, while at the same time, America has soundly rejected Republicanism and conservative ideation. A very large segment of the American people have rather had it with the damage done to this country by the GOP's own true axis of evil - the combination of neocons, corporatists and theocrats. I suspect that people will take most unkindly to more Republican attempts to inflict further damage on a country which your party has damn near killed. But, again, it really is a shame that a lowlife such as Chambliss sits in the Senate.
Posted by jmusolino at 12/03/2008 @ 01:47am
"Instead of stepping into the 21st century with most of the rest of the country – including the southern states of Virginia and North Carolina, both of which backed Barack Obama for president and replaced Republican senators with Democrats – Georgia opted for the past."
Ummmmm...
Have you seen Obama's 20th century cabinet?
Posted by bleedingheart at 12/03/2008 @ 03:32am
Sarah rode to the rescue. She deserves some credit. Her rallies were huge and got Senator what his name millions of dollars worth of free press especially in the local media. This was a winnable race for Martin. Palin's presence on the ticket probably forced the run off in the first place. Remember McCain did not win the primary there.
Now no FOCA, etc. Partial birth abortion will remain illegal. Governor Palin has already put a big fat hole in the left's agenda.
Obama is turning out to be an overly cautious political sissy still without a plan. He'll govern like W. God helps us.
If continuing to print money and giving it to corrupted business ends the recession and staves off a depression, Obama will deserve 8 years. If not, get use to saying President Palin.
John G. Malone Member: Team Sarah.org
Posted by 36763c at 12/03/2008 @ 05:49am
Chambliss, who won his first Senate term by attacking the patriotism of Vietnam veteran Max Cleland, ...
That's disappointing. **************************************************************
Yes, it is disappointing that you continue to repeat this offensive lie.
George Bush is more truthful and John Nichols.
Nobody questioned Cleland's patriotism. If you want to know the truth you should read The Nation.
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/state_of _change/385276/gop_plays_a_mean_saxby
Yes, your own publication ran an article by Leslie Savan about the 2002 contest that never once repeated this self-pitying lie.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:21am
In response to Savan's article I wrote this: **********************************************************
I am floored. Leslie Savan has written a fantastic article that is completely factual.
When I say the title a few days ago, I thought to myself that I just don't have the energy to correct another dishonest article from a Nation contributor claiming Chamblis questioned Cleland's patriotism. He didn't, and Ms. Savan confirms that.
Bravo! You are a credit to journalistic ingerity.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 11/26/2008 @ 1:12pm
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:22am
And Kook33 and I exchanged posts ending with this: ***********************************************************
Re-read the article.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 11/26/2008 @ 1:15pm
I re-read the article. Most of the voters in GA that I know, because I am a citizen of GA, saw those ads as attacking Cleland's patriotism. This was also during the time when anything in opposition to anything dealing with national security was portrayed as unpatriotic. I understand the article clearly. I'm just expressing how I felt after seeing those ads scroll across my tv screen. Either way, Chambliss still gets Georgia's asshole award.
Posted by k330k at 11/26/2008 @ 8:04pm ************************************************************
To which I now respons:
Well then, most of the voters you know are incompetent at understanding English.
You're like the racists who would listen to a black man say one thing, but "feel" that he was really saying something else.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:25am
Georgians handed Chambliss a 58-42 win over Martin.
This was a setback for Democrats. **********************************************************
No it wasn't. Dems never had any real shot a winning this seat.
Nichols, you are putting the cart before the horse. The direction of the country determines elections. You wrote that elections determine the direction of the country. You are wrong. You have engaged in wishful thinking that somehow on election night our behemouth country pirrouted and turned 180 degrees. It didn't. There was a slight shift of about 5% (admittedly large by historical standards) of voters. This is not 180 degrees.
Geogia was never in play. Your article yesterday suggesting that Obama could have made the difference in GA if he weren't to busy saving the world was ridiculous. It was an exercise in wishful thinking, not journalism.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:33am
I can't say I'm very disappointed; I knew Martin had no chance against the despicable Chambliss, alas. There are several reasons for this, but one is that Martin was just too liberal to carry Georgia. Its no longer necessary to nominate Democrats-in-name-only in Southern states; the victories of Jim Webb and Mark Warner in Virginia's two Senate races, since 2006, demonstrate that. But a northern-style liberal, functionally not much different from John Kerry or Michael Dukakis, just can't carry Georgia (or Virginia, for that matter). This rule applies to other states where Democrats have had recent electoral success, such as Montana.
Candidates must be tailored to their region. One rule of thumb is, don't nominate gun control proponents for statewide office in any state carried by McCain. Howard Dean and Bill Richardson aren't even for gun control, so why run a Georgian for the Senate who is?
And yeah, I'm against gun control too. I don't think there's anything "progressive" about restricting access to firearms to soldiers and the police. And the academic data just doesn't support the notion of reducing violence by banning guns (the quarter of a billion guns already in this country aren't going anywhere, even if you do manage to ban them).
Anyhoo, its just a shame the Democrats didn't nominate a candidate actually capable of carrying Georgia (he only came close in the first round due to Obama's coat tails; the 43% he got in the run-off is much closer to his authentic level of support). I'd have loved to see that bastard Saxby go down in flames.
Posted by KevinRiley at 12/03/2008 @ 07:33am
Look at that one more time 58 - 42. That is a 16 point win.
And you think people will "question" if Obama would have made the difference had he not been too distracted by his transition?
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:35am
he actually got away with questioning Max Cleland's patriotism?
Posted by jmusolino at 12/03/2008 @ 01:38am
No, he didn't. You shouldn't believe the things you read here. Passion clouds reason.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:40am
Sarah rode to the rescue. She deserves some credit. Her rallies were huge and got Senator what his name millions of dollars worth of free press especially in the local media. This was a winnable race for Martin. Palin's presence on the ticket probably forced the run off in the first place. ...
John G. Malone Member: Team Sarah.org
Posted by 36763c at 12/03/2008 @ 05:49am
Speaking of not believing everything you read here, start with this peice of self-serving political propaganda from a "Team Sarah" operative.
Sarah, who I like, had absolutely nothing to do with this win. She campaigned for the exact same reason Obama didn't: The race was a forgone conclusion on election night.
Mr. Malone talks about millions of dollars of free publicity but he gets the direction wrong. This was never winnable for Martin. Sarah ran down for the free publicity she would receive for herself, not generate for Chamblis.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:46am
It's not surprising Chambliss won in Georgia, that is a very, very red state and it will never move forward...it's stuck in time, just the way it likes it.
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 07:53am
Dear John,
How Progressive can Obama be, if he has appointed the same ol' tired faces to his cabinet?... Hillary Clinton, Bill Richardson, etc..
Oh by the way John, get a grasp of reality your old cry baby liberal ways are not progressive, and most annoying, but in this instance it is most amusing and laughable. HAHA!
Sincerely, Anne
Posted by AnneDays at 12/03/2008 @ 08:27am
took the words right out of my mouth. I suppose not marching in lockstep with the mantra of change and progress, all the while drooling over the "new blood" from clinton's admin is cause to be dismissed as stuck in time and branded a heritic for pointing out the emperer has no clothes and no new ideas
Posted by jonesy420 at 12/03/2008 @ 08:37am
Well then, most of the voters you know are incompetent at understanding English.
You're like the racists who would listen to a black man say one thing, but "feel" that he was really saying something else.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:25am
LOL! Awww, aren't you a sweetheart. I'm like the racists? That's rich. The people I know are not incompetent but ,then again, you wouldn't know that anyway. You're stating an opinion(that's worth as much as anyone else's) and that's fine. The people I know include hardworking people with families. Some maybe assholes but that's not a crime. If it was, you'd be serving a prison term right now. Anyway, his commercials were demeaning and Chambliss has no shame. I wasn't surprised by the outcome. I am glad, however, that I don't have to watch another political ad for a very long time.
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 08:45am
It was down right funny that Jim Martin had Ludacris as his cheerleader. I bet the folks down in Perry and up in Blue Ridge really related to that! LOL
Guess what, pandering to Atlanta is NOT going to win you a state wide election. Only the people who live in Atlanta think of it as the be all and end all of the state.
And thank the Lord the northerners think we are too redneck to want to move here in droves and bring their liberal baggage with them.
Posted by Dawglover at 12/03/2008 @ 09:06am
Look, Chambliss was a foregone conclusion (except for the eternally optimistic or eternally naive Mr Nichols)...
the key now (as before) is what he noted-
Specter....Collins....Snowe...and maybe Voinovich. But two are enough. And the likely two are Collins and Snowe.
And possibly Coleman. Though he too is likely to win over Franken, a CLEAR message was sent by Minnesota. Against a more seasoned Dem candidate, Coleman would have lost handily and he knows it. If he wants a career past 2014, he'll go even more moderate and that means supporting the Dems on some key domestic policy items.
None of those Repubs is going to want to be opposing jobs bills or help to the middle class, so though not technically "filibuster proof"...it's good enough.
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 09:17am
Oh! I do love those southern Christian's! They never fail to prove once more how immoral they are by voting one more lying scumbag into office!
Posted by ganddw42 at 12/03/2008 @ 09:18am
Hello, new poster here. The wide margin of victory for Chambliss was not an anomaly; there are vastly more conservatives in GA than liberals, with the exception of urban Atlanta. The huge turnout for Obama which gave Martin so many votes in the general election was exactly that; a huge turnout for Obama.
Martin got a lot of straight-ticket Democrat votes from the droves of urban liberals standing in line to vote for Obama, but in the runoff, Obama was not running and not even TI, Young Jeezy, Ludacris and Bill Clinton could motivate the Obama constituency to come back to the polls.
OTOH, conservatives were very motivated to prevent a 60-seat Democratic majority in the Senate, so they did come back to the polls.
GA by and large does not want change, at least not the kind of change Obama wants. Most of us work for a living and enjoy our freedoms, so why would we want to change? We've been kept safe from more terrorist attacks so why would we want to change? American companies are hobbled enough by union contracts and tax codes, so why would we want Obama's crippling carbon tax scheme?
Keep the change. -Georgia
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 09:23am
Obama barely stumbled across the primary finish line and then was aided in the general election by a media that showed no intellectual curiosity about the man whatsoever. There were no investigations into his college and grad school records, his writings while at Harvard, his relationships with extreme leftists, his street agitprop work, his eligibility for the presidency, etc... He is clearly the most unqualified man ever to take the reins of the presidency; his only "qualification" being that he gives a good speech.
Thank God Saxby won. To give Obama an open field would be a catastrophy.
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 09:40am
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 09:23am
You have got that right, Georgia does not want change...it's quite happy living in the dark ages and again you are right they don't want the same thing Obama wants!! They...NOT ALL BUT MOST, do not want to come together as one people, they still live in a segregated mind set and feel the white folks are still the number one race. So in that respect you are totally right....out of touch but right!!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:47am
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 07:53am
"It's not surprising Chambliss won in Georgia, that is a very, very red state and it will never move forward...it's stuck in time, just the way it likes it."
Might want to recheck the facts here. Most of the races in GA were pretty close. GA lost more than one incumbant republican seat to a democrat. The race between Jim and Saxby was close enough to need a run-off. How is that a "very, very red state" exactly? If anything, I'd describe GA as one of the new 'purple states'.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 09:51am
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 09:40am
What a pathetic sad bunch you Republicans are, you just can't get over the fact that the smarter man won the election. All these investigations you keep talking about are really wearing very thin you know....get over it, you lost and move on!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:52am
"Republican incumbent Saxby Chambliss has easily defeated Democratic challenger Jim Martin in an exceptionally low turnout election."
It sounds to me like that's the fault of the democratic party. I saw no ads urging people to "get out and vote". I saw no ads by Barack Obama urging those who voted for him to "get out and vote" for Jim Martin. I voted yesterday and didn't have to wait in line a single minute. Where were all the Obama democrats for Jim Martin? Did they just assume Chambliss was going to win and so figured "why bother" or did the party let them down by not urging them to get up off their seats and take a few minutes out of thier day to exercise their rights. Surely Obama had a few bucks left over from his campaign fund to place a few ads and help out a fellow Dem.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 09:58am
They...NOT ALL BUT MOST, do not want to come together as one people, they still live in a segregated mind set and feel the white folks are still the number one race. So in that respect you are totally right....out of touch but right!!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:47am
Not all, but most blacks are lazy.
Not all, but most Georgians are racist.
Is there any difference between these two statements?
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:02am
Even a by-the-numbers commenter like "DarinTheBigFatTroll" can score a point or two by staying on message, especially when he is a conservative and the topic is a political ad designed to be impervious to legal challenges.
Republicans may not know much, but they know how to do attack ads. They rely on images, not text. This is why "DarinTheBigFatTroll" is correct when he claims that Saxby Chambliss never questioned the patriotism of Max Cleland.
No, not in so many words. Instead, he juxtaposed images of Cleland with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Juxtaposing Cleland with these two obviously worked just as well as juxtaposing Saddam with Osama did. Words are not necessary to make a visual smear like this work.
Still, one has to be embarrassed for the sub-literate Georgia voters who can fall for a purely image-based campaign like this. Do these voters call themselves rednecks? Red faces, glowing with Caucasian shame, would be more appropriate.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/03/2008 @ 10:07am
It sounds to me like that's the fault of the democratic party... Did they just assume Chambliss was going to win and so figured "why bother" or did the party let them down by not urging them to get up off their seats and take a few minutes out of thier day to exercise their rights.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 09:58am
Chambils won by 16 points. If they did assume "why bother" they were right.
Do you have any idea what a monumental task it is to move a population of 6+ million people 16 points?
It also puts into perspective two things: Obama's win, but moving a population of 300 million 5 points was a huge move.
It's still only 5 points, mostly among people who really aren't committed to a political ideology and might not show up again next time.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:08am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 07:40am (and others)
Chambliss's 2002 ad accused Cleland of voting against "the president's vital homeland security efforts 11 times." The ad may not have questioned Cleland's patriotism explicitly, but it certainly did so implicitly.
Posted by richcarl at 12/03/2008 @ 10:15am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:08am
Fair enough. But my point is that the answer should never be "why bother". All Obama had to do was show some support for Martin. He had plenty of FREE media coverage over the past few weeks. Why didn't he throw the man a bone? I saw nothing. He had the power to make the race closer. Instead, it was a landslide victory for Chambliss. I'm not saying I wish it had gone the other way, just wondering why the democratic party virtually abandoned their one shot at a total majority.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 10:15am
No, not in so many words. Instead, he juxtaposed images of Cleland with Osama bin Laden and Saddam Hussein. Juxtaposing Cleland with these two obviously worked just as well as juxtaposing Saddam with Osama did. Words are not necessary to make a visual smear like this work.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/03/2008 @ 10:07am
Jack, do you honestly believe that people who saw that ad thought Cleland was a supporter of Osama and Saddam? Do you think there is any Republican in this country dumb enough to say his Dem opponent is a supporter of Islamic Terrorists? Such an ad would backfire stupendously.
The issue the ad adressed was a vote on homeland security. Cleland caved to pressure from Democrat special interests to refused to fire incompetent works who belonged to unions.
The image of Saddam and Osama reminded the viewer that Islamic terrorism is a REAL threat. And in the face of a REAL threat, one cannot allow unions to protect incompetent works when the risk is the deaths of innocent Americans.
You can "feel" that his patriotism was attacked or you can "feel" that the ad created the subliminal message that Cleland was having anal sex with Osama. You can "feel" anything you want.
The fact is, Cleland lacked the courage to stand up to entrenched Democrat special interests when American lives were at stake. The fact is, Cleland's vote was a legitimate campaign issue irrepsective of your feelings. And finally, the fact is the voters of GA agreed that Cleland's choice to blindly support unions over the safety of Americans demonstrated why he didn't deserve to be returned to the Senate in 2002.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:19am
[Obama] had plenty of FREE media coverage over the past few weeks. Why didn't he throw the man a bone? I saw nothing. He had the power to make the race closer.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 10:15am
Because if Obama had done more than perfunctory campaigning (which is what he did) and Martin still lost by 10 points Rush Limbaugh would have been trumpeting this "gigantic" repudiation of Obama. The voters just expressed "collossal" buyer's remorse.
Obama had and continues to have great momentum coming of the Nov 4 election. This certain loss in GA would have been seen as a road block to his momentum. He was smart to:
Accept the things he cannot change
Change the things he can
And was wise enough to know the difference.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:24am
just wondering why the democratic party virtually abandoned their one shot at a total majority.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 10:15am
Economics. The "shot" was not even worthy of being characterized as a long-shot. A one-in-a-million shot isn't worthy of wasting limited campaign resources upon.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:27am
but it certainly did so implicitly.
Posted by richcarl at 12/03/2008 @ 10:15am
No, he didn't. You tell yourself that he did because it makes you feel morally superior, but that doesn't change the fact that Chamblis didn't implicity question his patriotism.
Again, voting for unions over American security (11 times) is a legitimate campaign issue. Telling yourself comforting lies about how you only lost because they cheated by questioning his patriotism is not only a lie to yourself, it is a lie that Georgia's voters are too dumb to recognize a legitimate campaign issue when it is raised.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:52am
Obama is unqualified, it's as simple as that. The fact is that the media perpetrated a hoax on the country by not looking into his background and qualifications as they did for Bush, McCain, Giulliani, Romney, etc.... Halperin from Time mag has admitted the sycophancy. CNN now admits that "we don't really know Obama". Geeez. That should scare everybody.
I'm not claiming that McCain is smarter than Obama; in fact I'll admit that Obama's a pretty smart guy. But, what is true is that a lot of people in this country do not have curiosity of their own and rely on the media for their information; and there was never any investigative journalism done on Obama.
Four years ago you guys were forging documents about Bush's Air Nat'l Guard service in the '70s. This time around the media didn't seem to really want to know what Obama was doing in the 80's and 90's. What a joke!! What a hoax!!
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am
I see your point. It makes sense that the only reason he didn't do anything was because he saw nothing to gain by it. But it still makes Nichols whining about the low voter turnout sound even more tiresome. Case in point...no one had to prod me to get me to vote. I realize my vote counts even if it doesn't, by itself, swing the election one way or the other.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am
Some of these posts prove one thing. It is hard to be rational when you are consumed with hatred. Just because of one election, Georgia is cast by some as ignorant, backward, benighted and fundamentally racist. That just isn't true. Jimmy Carter is from Plains, GA. Many still seem bitter over Cleland's defeat in 2002; that is over six years ago! Come on, let's move forward and stop nursing old grievances. Isn't that what Obama is trying to do? I don't know if the Chambliss victory was a setback for Democrats or not, but I did expect both Martin in Georgia and Franken in Minnesota to win easily given the Democratic momentum last November.
Posted by jsens at 12/03/2008 @ 10:45am
Most of us work for a living and enjoy our freedoms, so why would we want to change?
a lot fewer "of us" are working for a living, why would we want change. think about it on the unemployment line.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 10:50am
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:52am
Obama is unqualified, it's as simple as that...
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am ********************************************************
As a McCain voter, I disagree with the big cheeze. Obama's qualified. He would be better if he had more executive experience, but that doesn't disqualify him.
As to Caj, does the Constitution require voters to vote for the smartest candidate?
Obama is smarter than McCain but in the list of things that contributed to Obama's success, I'd put these items' contributions ahead of his smartness:
Bush fatigue; $4 gasoline; the economic meltdown, war fatique; Republican corruption scandals; guilt related to America's racist past; Unabashed cheerleading from the three networks, all major "news" papers and "news" magazines, and all but one cable channel; Howard Dean's efforts at the DNC; and last, but MOST important, Obama's considerable oratory gifts.
I'm tempted to say that intelligence isn't what put Obama over the top.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:53am
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am
I'm all for investigating people, but come on now do you really believe that Obama would even have got as far as he has...President elect, if his credentials didn't match up!!!! I think this is something that the right just can't get over, the man was elected to be President as you say "simple as that". I do however find it amazing how the media according to the right have given him a free ride...what a joke that is...the man was blasted all through the election with Rev Wright for example...over and over again, relentless. Yet when it came to Sarah, the press were demonized for making comments about her....did we know anything about her, of course not we weren't allowed to hear from her, she was kept under wraps by McCain....so there is a double standard when it come to media coverage by the right.
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 10:57am
his only "qualification" being that he gives a good speech. Thank God Saxby won. To give Obama an open field would be a catastrophy. Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 09:40am | ignore this person | warn this person
cheese? overripe Limburger.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 10:58am
Most of us work for a living and enjoy our freedoms, so why would we want to change? We've been kept safe from more terrorist attacks so why would we want to change? American companies are hobbled enough by union contracts and tax codes, so why would we want Obama's crippling carbon tax scheme?
Keep the change. -Georgia
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 09:23am
What freedoms are you in danger of losing?
Americans were killed in India by Islamic terrorists, check the news.
McCain would have instituted a similar carbon tax credit.
People are losing their homes because they are losing good paying union jobs. Union auto workers have higher production than their Japanese counterparts, who are given subsidized health care which reduces the hourly charge to the company.
Do you know that President elect Barak Hussein Obama is not a muslim, marxist or terrorist? Do you know that he will do NOTHING to "take your guns"?
Stop with the propaganda. It is painful to watch such ignorance.
----
The "librool media" didn't do the same job investigating Obama as they did with Bush? What are you smokin?
Would you like to bring up Rashid Kahlidi again?Oops, that one backired didn't it?
Maybe you would like to talk about all the republicans that served on the Annenberg Board with Bill Ayers? No? OK, move on.
How about talking about Obamas Marxist/liberal Agenda picks for secDef, Sec State, Treasury and UN Ambassador? What's that? The "right" is pleased with those picks?
so much hooey, so little time.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 11:07am
I'm tempted to say that intelligence isn't what put Obama over the top.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:53am
Combined with an incredible work ethic, it is what got him into the position to make the run, it is what enabled him to build a massive organization and keep it running on all 8 cylinders. It also shined out like a bright like when compared to Palin/McCain. I think people are tired of the government running on "gut" decisions".
-----
Overall it is good that the dems don't have 60. Too bad Chambliss the purveyor of Anti-troop, anti-American propaganda won out. Maybe he will get seated next to Franken and they can play blocks together.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 11:12am
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 11:07am
You are correct, the right tend to forget all the "bad" folks that their party have "palled" around with, but they never forget for one minute about Obama's non association with Bill Ayer's!!! As I said earlier they have a complete double standard for everything.
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 11:20am
I'm tempted to say that intelligence isn't what put Obama over the top. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:53am
Darin: a blithering idiot
Obama: magna cum laude, Law Review, senator and president of the US
you decide.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:21am
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 10:57am
Yes, I do believe that Obama got as far as he did, even though his "credentials" do not match up. He has no credentials. None. No distinguished private-sector career, no major state-level legislation, no significant national level legislation, nothing. Nice rhetoric, that's about it. We don't even know what his grades were in undergraduate and graduate school. Where's his thesis? Law school writings? Any curiosity?
The mainstream media gave him cover, and lots of it, while they, and a lot of other voters, were trying to assuage their own "white guilt".
I agree with Troll on his list of other reasons why Obama won. But you will never convince me that Obama got the same treatment from the general media that McCain or Palin got.
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 11:22am
Darin-Your views on the subject of the Chamblis/Cleland ads are the views of a partisan republican and not the views of a more neutral observer.McCain viewed the ads as disgusting and I agree with him and I have no reason to view those ads as questioning Cleland's patriotism,but do see them that way.I would prefer that the republican won this race because it's not good when one of the parties has too much power,but would have preferred a different republican,like,maybe,one who is a veteran.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 11:26am
We don't even know what his grades were in undergraduate and graduate school. Where's his thesis? Law school writings?
magna cum laude. you can look it up, cheeseboy. by the way, what's that smell?
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:28am
Where is General Sherman?
Posted by k20thmaine at 12/03/2008 @ 11:28am
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:21am
"Darin: a blithering idiot
Obama: magna cum laude, Law Review, senator and president of the US
you decide."
I may not agree with everything Darin posts, but calling him "a blithering idiot" is harsh. He actually said Obama is smarter than McCain.
Darin->Obama is smarter than McCain but in the list of things that contributed to Obama's success, I'd put these items' contributions ahead of his smartness<-
Sounds like he agrees that Obama is a smart man.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 11:29am
jean22-No one voted for a messiah.That was just idiocy that Rush came up with and idiocy that his mindless followers repeated.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 11:30am
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 11:29am | ignore this person | warn this person
I've been reading Darin's tripe for a lot longer than you.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:34am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:31am
Darin, your argument would be more convincing if the ad had mentioned unions. It didn't. It mentioned homeland security and pictured Osama bin Laden. I agree that balancing union interests against homeland security interests is a legitimate campaign issue, but Chambliss never raised that issue in his ad. It's no slur on the people of Georgia to say that they could not reasonably have seen the ad as addressing that issue, since it didn't.
Posted by richcarl at 12/03/2008 @ 11:35am
It's not surprising Chambliss won in Georgia, that is a very, very red state and it will never move forward...it's stuck in time, just the way it likes it. Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 07:53am
I'd like to second caj's sentiment. It's hardly a surprise that Chambliss won. Now, whether Franken and the 4 remaining House seats are won or lost, it has been an amazing election year for the democrats: the presidency(>50% pop vote), 58(59) senators, 256(260) representatives, and 29 governors. I wasn't even remotely hoping for this positive of an outcome. The rout of all Republican representatives in the New England region, though not surprising, is indeed historic given the party's historic strength in that region since their inception. All in all an impressive mandate for the Democrats and a ratification of this center-left nation.
Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 11:43am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 10:19am
Yes, ask that basic question again...
Darin, why did JOHN MCCAIN call the ads repulsive?
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 11:55am
I have started reading "The Nation" recently and have noticed a disturbing trend. In almost every case opinions that differ from those of the editors/authors are "wrong" (in this case the entire state of Georgia, apparently). I was expecting a little more intellectual breadth here but it is not much different in tone from what I hear on conservative talk radio.
Posted by WSttl at 12/03/2008 @ 12:08pm
I was expecting a little more intellectual breadth here but it is not much different in tone from what I hear on conservative talk radio. Posted by WSttl at 12/03/2008 @ 12:08pm | ignore this person | warn this person
you may lead by example. I would turn the radio off for a while, though.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 12:11pm
the man was blasted all through the election with Rev Wright for example...over and over again, relentless.
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 10:57am
I think you are confusing Fox News with ABC/CBS/NBC/MSNBC/CNN/NYT/WP/Time/Newsweek/USNEWSandWorldReport/AP/etc.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:13pm
Darin: a blithering idiot
Obama: magna cum laude, Law Review, senator and president of the US
you decide.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:21am
JR, take a breath. I didn't say we wasn't smart. I said the opposite: I said he was smart and was clearly smarter than McCain.
The point of my post is that intelligence isn't everything. If it were, Marilyn Vos Savant would be President for life.
Yes, Obama is brilliant. I recognize and am greatly appreciative of that fact. My point is that his electoral success was much broader than just intelligence.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:17pm
I didn't say "HE" wasn't smart
not "WE" wasn't smart.
Sorry
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:18pm
I've been reading Darin's tripe for a lot longer than you.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:34am
Maybe you need to slow down and read it more carefully. You've become so prejudiced against me that you can't read straight.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:22pm
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 11:34am
"I've been reading Darin's tripe for a lot longer than you."
Well, it doesn't take long posting to see that you completely ignored Darin's statement that Obama is a smart man and attacked his intelligence instead. If you really take issue with the post and not just the poster, try not calling names. It makes you appear to be the bigger person and lends credence to your pov.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 12:23pm
I agree that balancing union interests against homeland security interests is a legitimate campaign issue, but Chambliss never raised that issue in his ad.
Posted by richcarl at 12/03/2008 @ 11:35am
"Cleland voted against Bush's homeland security 11 times."
So it's fair for you to interpret that anyway you want. Including as questioning patriotism. But somehow I go beyond the pale because I know Cleland voted against 11 times due to provision in the homeland security bill that had to do with termination of union employees.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:27pm
Darin, why did JOHN MCCAIN call the ads repulsive?
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 11:55am
Because the mainstream media didn't like them and nothing is more "mavericky" than agreeing with the MSM.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:29pm
If you really take issue with the post and not just the poster, try not calling names. It makes you appear to be the bigger person and lends credence to your pov. Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 12:23pm | ignore this person | warn this person
you are correct, though I don't wish to appear a bigger person, I wish to be a bigger person. there is still time, I'm only 62.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 12:31pm
"It's not surprising Chambliss won in Georgia, that is a very, very red state and it will never move forward...it's stuck in time, just the way it likes it." Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 07:53am
"I'd like to second caj's sentiment." Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 11:43am
******
I'm just wondering, hdthoreau, do you also agree with Caj's sentiment below?
"They...NOT ALL BUT MOST, do not want to come together as one people, they still live in a segregated mind set and feel the white folks are still the number one race."
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 09:47am
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 12:31pm
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 12:31pm
"...there is still time, I'm only 62."
Of course there is. That's the point of "keep trying" that I mentioned on another thread. None of us are perfect, including me. I just really hate name-calling. It makes me want to defend the person being called names.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 12:39pm
lvliberty-Conservatives,also,view themselves as morally and intellectually superior which is why you are dismissive of any left wing views and claim that everyone who has left wing views are lying or are wrong..There is little difference between the two sides when it comes that sort of thing.Agnew was describing both sides.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 1:01pm
Such bittereness from the righteous right. Losers, buh bye!
Posted by rmjlattanzi at 12/03/2008 @ 1:02pm
The young people today are not conservative. The hateful right is a dying (not quickly enough ;) breed.
Posted by rmjlattanzi at 12/03/2008 @ 1:05pm
"Do you know that President elect Barak Hussein Obama is not a muslim, marxist or terrorist? Do you know that he will do NOTHING to "take your guns"?"
"Stop with the propaganda. It is painful to watch such ignorance."
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 11:07am
Reading many of these posts, I sense a lot of the bitter vitriol and hatred one can read on DU or the Kos.
It seems that any conservative or Republican opinion or position is called "sub-literate" or ignorant. Oh, and any position contrary to Obama's is called "racist", and Southern Americans are all racists, supremacists, etc.
However convenient it may be to avoid honest debate, using such unwarranted stereotypes to insult anyone with a differing opinion does not lend credibility to the liberal position, but rather sabotages it.
As for Obama not having Marxist and gun-banning intentions, we shall see. He hasn't been honest and forthcoming about his birth or culture so far, and we've met his friends.
Obama is my President, just as the Democratic Senate and Congress is mine as well, and I will support them and wish them well as long as they don't demonstrate the undesirable qualities you are convinced they don't have.
Frankly, I don't trust any of them anymore, Democrats or Republicans.
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 1:19pm
"The issue the ad adressed was a vote on homeland security. Cleland caved to pressure from Democrat special interests to refused to fire incompetent works who belonged to unions."
It would of course enhance our notion of your intelligence, "Darin," if you added the "-ic" ending to the word "Democrat" when it is used as an adjective.
As to the "incompetent workers," (which is what I'll assume you mean by "incompetent works"), where is the evidence that workers are incompetent merely because they belong to unions? This is pure right-wing bias with no basis in reality. It is another smear -- against millions of hard-working people who happen to belong to unions.
Cleland's defense of unions was an act of courageous defiance against an administration that did everything it could to make war a profitable enterprise, rather than a thing to be either avoided or won quickly, with minimal bloodshed. Union-bashing does not properly belong to any serious war effort.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/03/2008 @ 1:24pm
lvliberty-Your response proved my post to be correct.Give it some thought.Agnew wasn't before my time and what he said does pertain to both sides even though he did not realize it..Happy,maasch,darin,you,redriver,ponti,as well as most others have stated that conservatives are intellectually superior as well as morally superior.I'm afraid that there is little difference between the two sides when it comes to the subject of viewing yourselves as superior.You forget that I have conservative views and am quite familiar with conservatives.My view on this subject is the view of someone who is middle of the road and can see both sides clearly whereas your opinion is the opinion of a conservative who wants to see the two sides as different,but you aren't different.In fact,you all have far more in common with one another than you realize.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 1:39pm
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 12:29pm
So McCain just a gutless wimp who sucks up to the MSM, while "everybody knows" there was nothing wrong with the ads run against Max Cleland?
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 1:49pm
I'm sorry, I just went into Irony Overload....THIS person making THIS statement-
"They universally believe with all of the arrogance that comes with it, that they are morally and intellectually superior to everyone else."----Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/03/2008 @ 12:55pm
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 1:51pm
At least now there will be a firewall against the more extreme legislation the left will try to push through. The dems will still be able to pass most of what they want, just not the insane. It actually saves the dems from themselves. Both political parties have the same problem. If either gets total power to do as it pleases, it is a guarantee they will overstep and plant the seeds for their own defeat down the road, partly because they cannot blame anything that goes wrong on the other party.
Posted by pyeatte at 12/03/2008 @ 1:58pm
So it's fair for you to interpret that anyway you want. Including as questioning patriotism. But somehow I go beyond the pale because I know Cleland voted against 11 times due to provision in the homeland security bill that had to do with termination of union employees.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008
I never said you were going beyond the pale. I'm merely saying that your interpretation is not backed up by any evidence in the ad itself, so it's disingenuous of you to criticize others for taking a different message from the ad. I freely admit that the ad didn't explicitly question Cleland's patriotism either, so neither of us can make any absolute claims. But I also question as highly unlikely your unstated premise that in 2002, most Georgia voters did not consider increased homeland security to be patriotic.
Posted by richcarl at 12/03/2008 @ 1:59pm
lvliberty-One does not have to directly state that conservatives are intellectually superior in order for a conservative to be expressing that view.Get real.Either,you have severe problems with your memory or you do know that most of my views are conservative since I have stated them to you, and others, on here multitudes of times and have complimented conservatives from my parents WW2 generation and have stated that I prefer to live in conservative areas like Montana and Alaska.I have stated all of that way too many times for you to have not noticed,although you may be paranoid, to the extreme, and believe that I'm making up those views as part of some left wing plot,but that would make you mentally ill and would have nothing to do with me..As I have stated numerous times,I am disappointed in people who are calling calling themselves modern conservatives and have expressed that disappointment and am willing to give the left a shot at doing something,but if they disappoint me then I will not support them anymore,either..
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 2:04pm
lvliberty-I have,also,distanced myself from people calling themselves progressives and have attacked many of their views, since being on here.I have attacked both sides,but you just look at those posts where I went after modern conservatives.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 2:08pm
As to the "incompetent workers," (which is what I'll assume you mean by "incompetent works"), where is the evidence that workers are incompetent merely because they belong to unions? This is pure right-wing bias with no basis in reality. It is another smear -- against millions of hard-working people who happen to belong to unions.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/03/2008 @ 1:24pm **********************************************************
Cleland voted against the homeland security bill 11 times acording to the ad. The underlying issue wasn't that the TSA should be able to fire union workers, the issue was that if a worker was demonstrated to be incompetent, the union couldn't protect him.
That is the provision that Cleland voted against. He wanted the union to have more power to protect its members. The Bill made the point that national security is too important to shift the balance of power to the worker.
Please forgive this aside. There are criminal courts and civil courts. In criminal court, the standard of proof is "beyond a reasonable doubt" because of the vast imbalance of power: that is, the State vs. one individual. In civil court, the standard of proof is "a preponderance of evidence" because the power is more balanced: one non-State entity against another non-State entity.
The worker protection rules are more like Criminal court: it's the big powerful company against one tiny worker so there are special rules tipping the balance of power in the union's favor to protect the individual.
The homeland security bill explicitly recognized that Innoncent Americans needed protection more than any one worker and wanted to tip the balance of power back to being able to fire the incompetent.
Cleland voted for union interests.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 2:35pm
But you will never convince me that Obama got the same treatment from the general media that McCain or Palin got.
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 11:22am
Open mind, eh? NEVER!
Do a quick google search, # of times McCain was on the telly, # of times Obama was on the Telly. How many interviews did Sarah "can I get back to you on that?" Palin grant? ----
"He hasn't been honest and forthcoming about his birth or culture so far, and we've met his friends. "
Utter BS. This is simply right-wing propaganda that has zero reflection in reality. What don't you know about Obama? Do you want to know who else served on the Annenberg Board? Republicans, the presidents of universities etc. Take some time, look it up. His Pastor? Do you really want to compare religious connections and what those connections said? Truly, do you want to compare Falwell, Robertson and Dobson to Wright? Or are you still of the mindset that Obama is a SECRET MOOSELUM?
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 2:35pm
Happy,maasch,darin,you,redriver,ponti,as well as most others have stated that conservatives are intellectually superior as well as morally superior.
Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 1:39pm
I.M. I don't mean to be disagreeable, but I have never said Conservatives are intellectually superior.
The Left has many brilliant people. As does the Right. In my experiences, there are no intellectual ability differences between the Left and Right.
I think both sides beleive themselves to be morally superior. The right is more vocal, what with the "family values" talk. But the Left's focus on fairness and equality are every bit as "morally" centered as the Right's focus on Christian Religion.
I have said that the Left is more arrogant than the right. My reason for saying this is my understanding that all things start with faith. Whether you predicate your actions on religion, or reason, or self-interest, or social adequacy, or fairness, or anything else, you start with a premis that is accepted on faith. All subsequent actions are/ should be rational decisions aimed at achieving that ultimate goal.
Thus, to a Conservative, a Liberal votes the way he does because he has different values.
But to a Liberal, the Conservative votes the way he does because he's stupid.
He's too stupid to realize that a "magic ghost in the sky" didn't create the world in seven days even though that is not an accurate description of my Christian faith.
He's too stupid to realize that every word Bush says is a lie.
He's too stupid to realize that Obama is smarter than McCain. I realize it, I just don't base my vote on intelligence alone.
In my opinion, Liberals aren't wise enough to recognize their own assumptions and too often characterized them as reason.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 2:59pm
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 2:35pm
Gee, Darin, it's a poser...
do we believe you...or the guy you voted for a month ago?
heheh
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 3:00pm
Posted by GAvoter "As for Obama not having Marxist & gunbanning intentions, we shall see. He hasn't been honest & forthcoming about his birth or culture so far, & we've seen his friends."
So what's next from your idiotic perspective? That Obama has completed the Haj in disguise? You are infinitely worse than the typical right-wing radio listener. You must be listening to taped broadcasts from a year ago.
Posted by Sorelish at 12/03/2008 @ 3:09pm
Agnew was describing both sides. Posted by i'm nobody at 12/03/2008 @ 1:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person
no, he wasn't. this was aimed at any and all critics of the Nixon regime. also Agnew and his boss were criminals.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 3:22pm
In reference to some of the comments concerning the idea that the left believes it's more morally superior than the right. Well, some of you might find it illuminating to read this article from the New Yorker entitled Red Sex, Blue Sex by Margaret Talbot.
http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2008/11/03/081103fa_fact_talbot
It's a month old and some of you might have read it already, but it's a fascinating analysis of sexual behaviors and the sexual mores of red states vs blue states and is worth the read.
Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 3:26pm
I agree with Troll on his list of other reasons why Obama won. But you will never convince me that Obama got the same treatment from the general media that McCain or Palin got.
Posted by frumunda_cheese at 12/03/2008 @ 11:22am
Sarah Palin loved the limelight and still does and no, she never got asked questions from the media because she wasn't allowed to. Only if they were posed from a media source of the right wings own choosing...and they were never tough questions on policy anyway!!!! She would only talk in riddles about.. Putin flying around up there...seeing Russia from her house...come on now are those intelligent answers from a possible VP???? McCain ( Mr Deregulator) saying the fundamentals of the economy were strong just a few days prior to the mess we see ourselves in now....oh my yes, they were a very smart intelligent pair to be running this country for sure!!!
Posted by Caj at 12/03/2008 @ 3:31pm
Also on a separate subject, for all those who are disappointed with the election of Chambliss, this might brighten your day.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/12/03/frank en-ahead-22-votes-no_n_148100.html
Though its not an official count, he has narrowed the gap significantly and has a decent chance of winning the election.
Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 3:39pm
Aw bummer Mr. Nichols, Socialism takes one on the chin. It's about time! Heck one or two Senators away from a complete Marxist state. Don't worry, by the time your boys are done, they will get their way via the judiciary.
Posted by Constitutionalist at 12/03/2008 @ 3:41pm
Heehee! The GOP is enjoying a "victory" and refuses to realize it is on its way to becoming a lilly white party of the old confederacy and states like Wyoming where nobody lives.
Chambliss is as vile as they come but hey - Georgia is home to the coming to Jesus crowd and the outright redneck bigots. Georgia deserves him.
Anyone who got 5 deferrments during 'Nam and them criticized the patriotism of a guy who left 3 limbs on the battlefield is a low-life individual.
Even McCain called him despicable - once.
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 3:42pm
speaking of Nixon and Agnew. it was the first time in our history that both the VP AND the pres were criminals, and resigned in disgrace.
we should only have been so lucky this time, when both VP and pres are torturers and liars, and yes criminals.
both were and are repubs. coincidence? I think not.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 3:45pm
Well I guess Chambliss can work on his golf handicap some more. Good for him. Like another poster stated, the voting lines were short to non-existent yesterday. I was not surprised. Usually in a run-off, the repubs win. Don't be fooled by GAvoter, no native Atlantan thinks Atlanta is the end-all. It's when I go out-of-town and I get asked where I'm from that people say, "Wow. You're from Atlanta?" Like it's the big city or something. I know compared to Alma, GA it is but when you've lived there all your life, it's not a big deal. That was the fault of Jim Martin. He never campaigned outside of the Atlanta area and he should have. There are alot more middle to lower class whites in GA than otherwise and they do vote. I hope they are satisfied with Chambliss again. Although after the way rural GA whites were used, on the flag-issue, by Purdue to get himself elected, I'd be more skeptical of promises made to me by a politician. I guess that goes for the entire voting public as well.
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 4:02pm
Though its not an official count, he has narrowed the gap significantly and has a decent chance of winning the election.
Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 3:39pm
That 22 figure comes from Franken's own campaign. The Official count has Coleman at 300 (about an increase of 100).
There are about 6000 challenged ballots, but the article I read said almost all challenges are rejected. Further, Franken just removed 600+ of his challenges and Coleman had more than Franken to start with.
Further, Franken is floating trial balloons about asking the Senate to overrule the MN results and Coleman is not.
Being as objective as I can, I think Franken has virtually no chance.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/03/2008 @ 4:12pm
Heck one or two Senators away from a complete Marxist state. Don't worry, by the time your boys are done, they will get their way via the judiciary.
Posted by Constitutionalist at 12/03/2008 @ 3:41pm
Is this Pontificus under a new nic?
Careful finding your way to your front door, reality may bite you on the butticus.
Now what would cause me to question the intellect of people that continue to make claims such as the one above? Gee...
now if were one or two people, Ok, I could grant them some leeway, but when it is thousands of people that show up to a Palin rally...it could lead me to think the whole group is missing a few sandwiches from their lunchbox.
Here are some tips boys and girls...if they told you to be afraid of Saddam...question what else they are telling you.
If they say Obama is a Marxist...question everything they tell you.
If they sing praises for Raul Castro...question everything they tell you.
If they say Chavez is a hero, OR call him a dictator...well you know what to do.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 4:22pm
Martin did some campaigning in South Georgia, but he wasn't very convincing, IMO. And most of his ads were either negative or making use of Obama's coattails. Chambliss locked it up with his Thanksgiving ad showing him and his family in the livingroom. If it had been Martin in that ad instead of Chambliss, he might have had a chance (probably not, but a better one). JMO
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 4:22pm
Darin, what about the 22 ballots in the trunk?
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 4:23pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/03/2008 @ 1:29pm
LVLIB, do you consider yourself morally superior to the Left? Which is pro-choice on abortion, while you oppose it?
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 4:26pm
"Chambliss locked it up with his Thanksgiving ad showing him and his family in the livingroom."
I weep for my country.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 4:27pm
Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 4:22pm
I've been wondering where PONTI slid off to (if it's him). I wasn't sure if he would try the old nick switcheroo...or just go away.
Ya gotta figure getting this thrown back in his face, gotta sting-
"Obama's lead is melting....melting....melting..... and the media can't help him. The more people learn about Obama, the more it becomes obvious that the guy is not only an empty suit, but a huge fraud. He's the latest in a long line of left-wing losers.
He's going to lose in a landslide."-----Posted by pontificus at 08/18/2008 @ 10:38pm
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 4:30pm
Dear John,
Damn it! Democracy sucks! How dare the people in Georgia be ALLOWED to vote for a Republican! How dare they even THINK that Obama is not the chosen one.
The temerity of Georgians to believe in a two party system, to think that Obama should not be given a blank check with no safeguards and no one to look over his shoulder!
This is outrageous! This is sacrilege! And surely, these narrow minded Georgians must be made to pay for their insolence.
Posted by Peruna at 12/03/2008 @ 4:31pm
crabwalk: Don't weep for the country.
Weep for Georgia.
The rest of us are movin on.....
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 4:33pm
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/03/2008 @ 4:22pm
Did Martin personally show up in South GA? I saw that commercial and others. I thought Chambliss locked it up with the commercial showing the faces of the Mexican illegal aliens with the ad stating," He's on their side, not our side." Of course I was wondering whose side is "their" side and whose side is "our" side. I thought that was pretty slick.
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 4:34pm
hey Peruna: No one cares if Georgia voted for a Republican - but Chambliss is a dirtbag and everyone knows it.
He's not exactly Everett Dirksen....
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 4:36pm
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 4:33pm
Don't weep for Georgia. We'll be right here to save your troubled cities when you find yourselves waist-deep in "change".
Like teenagers out of money and beer, you'll come moping around wishing for the way things used to be.
You'll put aside the green hair dye and nose rings and realize that some things should not have been "changed".
We'll leave the lights on for you.
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 4:46pm
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 4:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
we have a winner, folks. most absurd, nonsensical post du jour. it was a close race with Darin, who is always in the running, and that cheese fellow.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 5:04pm
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 4:33pm Don't weep for Georgia. We'll be right here to save your troubled cities when you find yourselves waist-deep in "change". Like teenagers out of money and beer, you'll come moping around wishing for the way things used to be. You'll put aside the green hair dye and nose rings and realize that some things should not have been "changed". We'll leave the lights on for you. Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 4:46pm
I'm not sure many people will be looking for Georgia to save them.
http://www.gbpi.org/pubs/facts/20060715.pdf
Public High School Grad rate (2002): 49th Proficiency in 8 th Grade Math (2003): 41st Proficiency in 8 th Grade Reading (2003): 38th Overall Status of Children: 44th Percent Low Birthweight Babies: 41st (lowest to highest) Infant Mortality Rate: 43rd (lowest to highest) Percent Teens High School Dropouts: 48th (lowest to highest) Percent Children in Poverty: 36th (lowest to highest) State Health Ranking (2005): 43rd Percent without Health Insurance (2005): 43rd (lowest to highest) Infant Mortality (2005): 44th (lowest to highest) Cardiovascular Deaths (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Total Mortality (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Premature Death (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Per Capita Personal Income (2005): 35th Three Year Average Poverty Rate (2002-2004): 21st Morgan Quitno Smartest State: 40th
Indeed it might be prudent for Georgians to focus on saving themselves.
Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 5:14pm
Somebody get this guy a tissue.... and tell him to respect the vote of the people. Maybe he should move to New York if he doesn't like his state.
Posted by greene2707 at 12/03/2008 @ 5:14pm
Indeed it might be prudent for Georgians to focus on saving themselves. Posted by hdthoreau at 12/03/2008 @ 5:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
very nice, a public service post, to be sure
Maybe he should move to New York if he doesn't like his state. Posted by greene2707 at 12/03/2008 @ 5:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person
moving to new york is a fine idea, who would move to Georgia?
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 5:20pm
Gee, not even a little sign of trying to be fair in this article. The sad fact that people like Nichols and his ilk do not understand is that just because people vote for a conservative does not mean that they are backward hicks. One of the convienent things he ignires here is that Chambliss dominated moderates and indies that are much more wary of a Dem dominated Congress then Nichols wants. The kind of change Nichols and the left want is unfettered control of every aspect of our lives. I think the voters of Georgia want change, just not the kind offered by a completely unchecked Democratic Congress or president
Posted by McCain08 at 12/03/2008 @ 5:27pm
Ah Georgia!
This election the GOP became the party of the old, undereducated, rural angry white voter. This group is becoming a smaller and smaller percentage of the electorate. It became the party of the Southern core of the Confederacy and states like Wyoming where nobody lives. It lost in every major metropolitan area. It lost affluent diverse suburbs in Philadelphia, Charlotte, Raleigh, Fairfax and Northern Virginia, Alberquerque and Las Vegas, Miami and Tampa, Los Angeles, Cleveland and Indianapolis, San Francisco, Seattle, New York and Boston . It even lost Dallas and Houston.
It lost hispanic voters by 2 to l. It lost virtually 100% of the black vote. It lost the "youth" vote 2 to 1. The Democrats won every growing demographic.
There is no longer a GOP Representative in the House from all of New England, including those bastions of Republicanism, New Hampshire and Maine. There are only 3 GOP House members from New York and only one is urban. The increasing Hispanic vote will put Texas and Arizona in play in coming elections. Any party that starts with California, New York and Texas in its column is in a pretty strong position.
TV Cameras had a hard time finding a black face at the GOP convention. Bigots routinely talked to video cameras while in line and waiting outside.
The GOP needs to decide what it is FOR......calling the opposition names ain't gonna cut it as "policy". Being for "family" and "America" ain't gonna cut it as policy. Calling the Dems "traitors" and marxists, rhetoric not heard in 50 years, revealed the dearth of GOP ideas.
Continuing to emphasize the culture wars will lead to a smaller, waiting for the rapture, lily-white regional Southern party.
Look at the faces of the new America..the demographics are against you.
Posted by toritto at 12/03/2008 @ 6:10pm
Disappointment in Georgia? Hardly, Georgian's showed their independance and elected a man who has served them well over the past 6 years. And it was hardly a blink. Chambliss won in a walk. John Nichols will have to take comfort in the fact that he won all the big ones this year. Republicans and conservatives will have to take comfort in smaller victories like Georgia and the fact that Obama so far doesn't seem to be the left wing loon that they feared, and that John Nichols must have longed for. Maybe we all have something in our Christamas stocking this year!
Posted by valwayne at 12/03/2008 @ 6:55pm
moving to new york is a fine idea, who would move to Georgia?
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 5:20pm
What's with the GA bashing? Believe me, many people from NY, CA, TX, MI, PA, etc. have moved to GA. Unfortunately they've brought their discourteous and obnoxious attitudes with them. I agree with mccain08. The Chambliss win does not mean GA is full of hicks. A Dem win in NY does not mean all New Yorkers are pansy liberals. I live in GA and I love it and would not want to leave anywhere else. The weather's great here and if you don't like it, just wait 15 minutes. Other than that, Chambliss sucks ass.
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 7:00pm
I meant "live" not "leave". Besides, Chambliss hasn't done a damn thing for education in GA. It's a shame really because most of those that voted for him are being done a disservice by their educational system. The tax cuts he supported didn't help those constitutents in South GA. Now, his constituents in North Atlanta were definitely helped. Of course their median incomes dwarf those of his constituents in South and Central GA. But hey, atleast he's on "their" side.
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 7:05pm
Arrogant article. FU!
Posted by Herman2 at 12/03/2008 @ 7:32pm
Georgia rejected a failed ideology. High taxes and Big Govt. leads to tyranny and tyranny always ends at the butt of a gun. What's so backwards about that?
Posted by Danjonglee at 12/03/2008 @ 7:33pm
As a Georgian, who voted in the runoff election for Saxby, I am proud that we will have him representing our Great State for 6 more years. Hopefully, the Republican Party will now move back toward a platform of less government, less taxes, and a renewed focus on state's rights.
Posted by Fishwater_UGA at 12/03/2008 @ 7:55pm
The founders understood the balance of power. If Obama and the Democrats can convince 2 or 3 Republicans to vote for ending a filabuster, then it is probably OK. The Republicans know that they can too easily annoy the public by misusing the filabuster. This is from a liberal Democrat who supported Obama by voting, and financially. But we need a loyal opposition. No one has all the answers and I trust that some of those who voted in this election wanted a balanced perspective. Democracy survives on concensus.
Posted by WJOsler at 12/03/2008 @ 8:06pm
Nichols - I am disappointed too, but more with states like NC and VA, who voted for an empty suit who's prior associations read like a who's who in America/Israel haters. Guess we all don't get what we want.
Also, I take issue with your claim that Voinivich and Specter will be vulnerable if they support GOP filibusters. In two years, if unemployment is touching 7 or 8% and the Dems are controlling every lever of govt, running as a Dem could be toxic. If the GOP is smart, they will fight Dems on any attempt to raise taxes or bailout broken businesses. That will help them regain power.
It worked for the Dems. You liberals cheered American deaths in Iraq and have been talking down the economy since 2001. Now that Bush won the war, the GOP will only have to stoop as low as cheering for high unemployment and famine. At least we won't have to pray for death like liberals did.
Posted by LiberalsHateAmerica at 12/03/2008 @ 8:48pm
Poor Nichols, now you still dream about change from Obama. Here is the change: His picks: Geithner, Summers advocates de-regulation of banks (did it when hw was Clinton's Treasury Secretary) and regulate Fannie. Is it Bush's philasophy too? Gates is not Bush's Secretary defense, he opposed a time-line for withdraw from Iraq, advocates to build more nuclear warheads and still carry out Bush's policy, and your Obama loves hin so much that and beg him to stay, it is the historic that a Secretary of Defense serves different parties. Gates reluctantly agree to stay. His another pick, Jim Jones, supports drilling oil in US land, he supported Mccain for Presidency and campaigned for Mccain this June. He is pro-iraq war, and your Obama begs him to join. Romers,Obama's choice for heading econmy advisory board, she opposes raising tax, she is also along Bush's Republican's philosophy. His picks looks more Bush like than Clinton like. Hilary said if Iran attacks Israel, US should attack Iran, a hawk as well. Is this the change you mena? Obama refused to go to campaign for Democratic candidates for Geogoa's re-run of election, it is not Obama's priority that democrate to win Geogia's Senate seat. Wake up, poor Nichols.
Posted by timtam at 12/03/2008 @ 8:50pm
You liberals cheered American deaths in Iraq
a despicable post. yecch.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 9:19pm
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 7:00pm |
this why I would not live in Georgia, or anywhere in the south for that matter.
Public High School Grad rate (2002): 49th Proficiency in 8 th Grade Math (2003): 41st Proficiency in 8 th Grade Reading (2003): 38th Overall Status of Children: 44th Percent Low Birthweight Babies: 41st (lowest to highest) Infant Mortality Rate: 43rd (lowest to highest) Percent Teens High School Dropouts: 48th (lowest to highest) Percent Children in Poverty: 36th (lowest to highest) State Health Ranking (2005): 43rd Percent without Health Insurance (2005): 43rd (lowest to highest) Infant Mortality (2005): 44th (lowest to highest) Cardiovascular Deaths (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Total Mortality (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Premature Death (2005): 41st (lowest to highest) Per Capita Personal Income (2005): 35th Three Year Average Poverty Rate (2002-2004): 21st Morgan Quitno Smartest State: 40th
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 9:23pm
air national guard, protecting Alabama?
well, close:
Saxby Chambliss got 5 deferments during the Vietnam War because his knee
Saxby Chambliss ran ad against Max Cleland with image of Osama bin Laden.
Saxby Chambliss loves him one George Bush / Dick Cheney.
Maybe he's OK.
Posted by winyahn at 12/03/2008 @ 9:34pm
Posted by winyahn at 12/03/2008 @ 9:34pm
So Saxby couldn't go to Vietnam because of a bad knee...
and Max Cleland came back from Vietnam with NO knees...
yeah, that's about the same, huh?
Posted by Mask at 12/03/2008 @ 9:56pm
Listen, you arrogant piece of tripe. "Most of the rest of us" reserve our right to vote as we wish. And because we don't share your views, you think that makes us "backward"? Could you be anymore full of yourself. "We" are Phds, union laborers, immigrants, business owners, political professionals, students, etc. "We" are more or less 1/2 of this country. Yes, the other 47%, that's a lot of human beings. I imagine you're probably not old enough to have the wisdom of restraint, and I imagine that in your case it'll take a while. In the meantime, check yourself, you self-important jackass. Don't lecture me on how it "obviously" should be. If you're really that arrogant, you can only be a fool. Why any mag. would publish you is well beyond me....
sUb, NYC
Posted by sub at 12/03/2008 @ 10:34pm
Disappointment in Georgia???? Wrong--Get used to this--Liberals got the perfect storm to win the Nov 4 election--Get used to landslide losses like this--It'll happen again in 2010 and 2012
Posted by bulldog7450 at 12/03/2008 @ 10:40pm
"Look at the faces of the new America..the demographics are against you."
The demographics of the "new America" are not the problem; the utter lack of understanding and naive utopian brainlessness of the "new America" is what is disturbing.
Racism, class warfare, wealth envy, elitist delusions of intellectual superiority, belief in entitlements to government nanny-state; these are the hallmarks of the "new America".
I am beginning to think that we are doomed to repeat the Northern War of Aggression. Except this time, there is no clear demarcation of a Mason-Dixon line. The bastards could come from the North or the South.
They drive their Bimmers down here and occupy a cubicle and think they blend in, but they sort of stand out...and not due to intellectual or cultural superiority. They don't even know about barbeque. Most of them don't know about grits or sweet tea. They can be educated over time, but it's like herding cats.
I've spent a lot of time in NYC and Boston, and I enjoyed the food and entertainment, but to live there? No thanks. Give me the South. There is nothing up there I desire. I'll live and die a Son of the South, with none of the ignorance and racism some seem to ascribe to this 85% black city of millions.
But please, don't let me interrupt your nonstop bashing of your warmer American brothers and sisters.
Posted by GAvoter at 12/03/2008 @ 10:52pm
"this why I would not live in Georgia, or anywhere in the south for that matter."
Whoa, Georgia's takin' a beating today. "redneck", "racist", "sub-literate",etc.
As opposed to that great, Democrat-run progressive state (Prop 8) of California. The Golden (Prop 8) State. Overwhelmingly voted for Obama. A shining (Prop 8 ) beacon for us all.
"Chambliss locked it up with his Thanksgiving ad showing him and his family in the livingroom." I weep for my country. Posted by crabwalk at 12/03/2008 @ 4:27pm
There, there. Here's a tissue...
Posted by twillie at 12/03/2008 @ 11:01pm
The pendulum will inevitably swing back the other way. It always does. A funny thing happens when you gain too much power for your own good, your head grows like a giant potato. And when one party gains to much power, all of those giant potato heads start crashing into one another. Don't worry, they will screw it up, just like the republicans did---and the fun will begin again.
Posted by soybean_atrocity at 12/03/2008 @ 11:26pm
The only overt bigotry i've seen recently has been coming from gay activists in California spewing hatred against the black community and religious groups out there on the left coast. Shameful. They are only doing damage to their cause. I'm from New England. I'll spend my vacation dollars in the South.
Posted by soybean_atrocity at 12/03/2008 @ 11:46pm
"The homeland security bill explicitly recognized that Innoncent Americans needed protection more than any one worker and wanted to tip the balance of power back to being able to fire the incompetent," said our favorite "Troll," "Darin." Notice the INSINUATION, dear readers, that unions exist to defend incompetent workers against competent bosses, not competent workers against incompetent bosses.
Suppose I countered with the insinuation that the need to protect "Innoncent Americans" means that we must roll back the privileges of the bosses at the TSA, so that they will not abuse, cheat, overwork, or wrongfully fire the hard-working union people who are our nation's first line of defense?
That would be putting the bias on the other foot, wouldn't it?
In my previous posting, I accused you, "Darin," of insinuating that workers' rights are somehow a threat to our national security, an insinuation that has not one shred of evidence. Did you, "Darin" (or the Bush administration, or Saxby Chambliss), provide any evidence? No.
Is there any evidence that Max Cleland's pro-union stand threatened our national security? I believe there is none.
Was it wrong, and indeed a groundless, biased, class-based, mean-spirited attack on unionized workers, to insinuate that Cleland's pro-union stand showed "poor judgement" and put our country at risk? I believe so!
So I have to say I am not pleased when a slime lord like Chambliss campaigns like this and wins. Nonetheless, his victory is a tiny disappointment in an overwhelmingly progressive national election that will bring us all, Georgians included, a drastically improved Federal government.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/04/2008 @ 12:03am
I work for a global corporation and belong to a union. Spare me the "almighty union" slogans. They are just as corrupt as corporate America.I despise them both equally-because behind closed doors they sleep in the same bed-both driven by power and money. My local union can benefit me in small ways but that's about it. I think that the teachers unions have done great damage to our public education system for their own self interests-students be damned. As for a drastically improved Federal government, we shall see. For my own self interest, i hope you're right-but i doubt it. National security trumps union rights hands down.
Posted by soybean_atrocity at 12/04/2008 @ 12:27am
" Now that Bush won the war, the GOP will only have to stoop as low as cheering for high unemployment and famine. At least we won't have to pray for death like liberals did. Posted by LiberalsHateAmerica at 12/03/2008 @ 8:48pm"
Buwahahaha.
No, this is The Post of the Day. The Ignoramus America Hater Post of the Day.
Why do you hate Americans so much?
Posted by crabwalk at 12/04/2008 @ 07:12am
"Bush won the war"
Iraq officials: Car bombings in Fallujah kill 10
November # of bombings-108
Killed byt those bombs- 148
This week the US Embassy in the Green zone was shelled.
Posted by crabwalk at 12/04/2008 @ 07:25am
""this why I would not live in Georgia, or anywhere in the south for that matter.""
I wish more carpetbaggers shared that view....unfortunately that's not the case. As witnessed by the projected electoral vote changes coming after the 2010 census.
Texas +4 Arizona +2 Florida +2 Georgia +1 Nevada +1 North Carolina +1 Oregon +1 South Carolina +1 Utah +1
California -1 Illinois -1 Iowa -1 Louisiana -1 Massachusetts -1 Michigan -1 Minnesota -1 Missouri -1 New Jersey -1 Pennsylvania -1 New York -2 Ohio -2
Posted by bleedingheart at 12/04/2008 @ 07:48am
GAvoter,
Let them think what they want. If they think we are so backwards they will stay away. Look what has happened to NC.
Posted by Dawglover at 12/04/2008 @ 07:59am
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 9:23pm
I'll take my chances in GA. I went to school here, graduated from a great college and own my own home. I'd rather stay and fight to make it better than criticize and do nothing. But you are most welcome to stay where you are. Believe me, we have enough transplants in Atlanta as it is. No big whoop, though. Great weather, greenspace, and good people aren't for everybody.
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 08:16am
Posted by Dawglover at 12/04/2008 @ 07:59am
Man what in the hell happened to Georgia? How could they lose to Tech?
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 08:18am
Notice the INSINUATION, dear readers, that unions exist to defend incompetent workers against competent bosses, not competent workers against incompetent bosses.
Posted by JakobFabian at 12/04/2008 @ 12:03am
Fabio,
You are seeing things that aren't there. There is no insinuation in my post, there was no insinuation about Cleland's patriotism in the ad. Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
I didn't insinuate that the SOLE purpose of Unions is to protect the incompetent. Unions shift the blanace of power between management and labor. My analogy to criminal court and civil court was a JUSTIFICATION of why an individual worker deserved to have the balance of power shifted in his direction.
My beef with Cleland was that he appeared to blindly do the union's bidding in a situation where shifting that balance of power put innocent lives at risk.
So stop looking for insinuations and just read the words I write and tell me why the job rights of a single hypothetical worker are more important than the physical safety of hundreds of average Americans.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 08:28am
Believe me, we have enough transplants in Atlanta as it is.
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 08:16am
No shit! When I lived in GA we were in a sub-division of about 75 homes. Only one of the residents was born in GA. (I'm talking adults. My second son was born there.)
We had three from England, one from Ireland, and NY, NJ, CA, MI, WI, MN, MI, TX, ... and only one from GA.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 08:32am
Let them think what they want. If they think we are so backwards they will stay away. Look what has happened to NC.
Posted by Dawglover at 12/04/2008 @ 07:59am
That's another No Shit!
I moved to Alpharetta (northern suberb) in 1996. I moved from MN where I was taught that all southerners are racist bigots.
What an eye opening surprise to find that it's the MN people who are bigots with their ethnocentric predjudices against southerners.
Wen people ask about having lived all over the country, the one thing I consistently tell all of them is that moving to Georgia taught me the difference between "friendly" and "polite". People in the Midwest think they are friendly, but they aren't. They are polite. My experiences suggest that southerners are much more outgoing and hospitable.
Yes, there is a Klan rally once a year at Stone Mountain, Georgia. But those rallies taught me how a miniscule minority of a few dozen people can be used to create the impression (or insinuations) about the attitudes of millions. It is ridiculous to think that the couple of dozen idiots who seek attention in their sheets once a year are in anyway representative of the general population.
In fact, every state in the country has prisions with hundreds or thousands of murders and rapists. So every state has far more murders than Georgia has Klansmen, yet we don't draw generalization about how state X is full of violent killers because of a few dozen people in prison.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 08:45am
good people aren't for everybody. Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 08:16am | ignore this person | warn this person
whattacrock.
I am a culture maven, I have seen nothing down south which would give me the cultural oxygen that I need to breathe.
I have lived in the provinces in several countries and I have lived in big cities in several countries. provinces, not for me.
my "south bashing" was in response to a poster who's line was, Georgia, love it or leave it.
none of the southland's defenders confronted the sorry statistics cited here. whatsamatter, ashamed? you should be.
instead of singing the praises you might work to turn those awful statistics around. no place is perfect, but denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 08:56am
Here's how James Taranto reported Chamblis's win:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB122831457057475705.html
Unofficial results, with 97% of precincts reporting, show Sen. Saxby Chambliss with a wide lead over challenger Jim Martin, 57.4% to 42.6%, in Georgia's runoff election. Chambliss's victory ... lays to rest one of the nastiest McCarthyite smears of recent times: the repeated assertion by Democrats and the media that former senator Max Cleland's patriotism is in question.
Cleland was seeking a second term in 2002 when Chambliss ran against him. Chambliss criticized Cleland's voting record--specifically, his repeated votes against the legislation that created the Department of Homeland Security. Cleland and fellow Democrats objected to provisions in the law that gave the new department more flexibility vis-ŕ-vis union work rules. Chambliss accused Cleland of cravenly pandering to special interests.
Democrats, unable to defend Cleland's position on the merits, falsely accused Chambliss of questioning Cleland's patriotism--and thereby introduced into the debate the notion that Cleland's patriotism was in question. In fact, ... [Cleland] served courageously in the battlefield in Vietnam, so that his patriotism should be above reproach. As we noted in 2003, Cleland was awarded the Silver Star for gallantry in action at Khe Sanh. ...
This year, Democrats hoped to exact revenge for Cleland's 2002 loss by defeating Chambliss. Had Martin prevailed, there's little doubt his fellow Democrats would have claimed vindication for their McCarthyite effort to smear Cleland as a man whose patriotism is in question. Chambliss's win therefore should be seen as a victory for civility and decency in politics.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 09:00am
"Disappointment in Georgia???? Wrong--Get used to this--Liberals got the perfect storm to win the Nov 4 election--Get used to landslide losses like this--It'll happen again in 2010 and 2012"-------Posted by bulldog7450 at 12/03/2008 @ 10:40pm
That sounds familiar??!?!!?
"Obama's lead is melting....melting....melting..... and the media can't help him. The more people learn about Obama, the more it becomes obvious that the guy is not only an empty suit, but a huge fraud. He's the latest in a long line of left-wing losers.
He's going to lose in a landslide."---Posted by pontificus at 08/18/2008 @ 10:38pm
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 09:05am
Posted by k330k at 12/03/2008 @ 4:34pm
->I thought Chambliss locked it up with the commercial showing the faces of the Mexican illegal aliens with the ad stating," He's on their side, not our side."
I don't even recall that ad. Either it didn't air in my area, or it just didn't carry the weight with me that it did with you.
Now, I remember Chambliss' Thanksgiving ad because I was at my Grandmother's house with my whole extended family around me. It made me feel good and was memorable. It didn't change my mind about who I was voting for, b/c I made that decision months ago, but it was memorable; Jim Martin might have won a few votes with a similar one. JMO.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:06am
Chambliss's win therefore should be seen as a victory for civility and decency in politics.----Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 09:00am
and 2 + 2 = 5 and Oceania has always been at war with EastAsia!
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 09:09am
Well, I hope Taranto is correct that this will finally put to rest the despicable lie that Chamblis questioned Cleland's patriotism.
I know it won't, but I will take comfort in the fact that those who choose to continue to wave the blood shirt of Cleland's patriotism will be admired only by the fellow Kool-aid drinker who conscouisly reject reality, and will be laughed at by the rest of the world.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 09:11am
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 09:09am
Hey Mask, I don't have to take accusations of Orwellian distortion seriously from a guy who want to do away with secret balloting by calling it "The Employee Freedom Act" or what other bullshit Orwellian name it goes by this week.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 09:15am
The GA stats quoted above were at least 2 years old by the link listed as the source. Here are some state comparison stats regarding the percentage of adults with a HS diploma or higher.
Rank States Amount (top to bottom) #1 Minnesota: 92.3% #2 Montana: 91.9% #3 Wyoming: 91.9% #4 Nebraska: 91.3% #5 Utah: 91% #6 New Hampshire: 90.8% #7 Vermont: 90.8% #8 Alaska: 90.2% #9 Iowa: 89.8% #10 Washington: 89.7% #11 Kansas: 89.6% #12 North Dakota: 89.5% #13 Wisconsin: 88.8% #14 Connecticut: 88.8% #15 Virginia: 88.4% #16 Colorado: 88.3% #17 Ohio: 88.1% #18 Hawaii: 88% #19 Idaho: 87.9% #20 Missouri: 87.9% #21 Michigan: 87.9% #22 New Jersey: 87.6% #23 South Dakota: 87.5% #24 Maryland: 87.4% #25 Oregon: 87.4% #26 Indiana: 87.2% #27 Maine: 87.1% #28 Massachusetts: 86.9% #29 Illinois: 86.8% #30 Delaware: 86.5% #31 Pennsylvania: 86.5% #32 District of Columbia: 86.4% #33 Nevada: 86.3% #34 Florida: 85.9% #35 New York: 85.4% #36 Georgia: 85.2% #37 Oklahoma: 85.2% #38 Arizona: 84.4% #39 South Carolina: 83.6% #40 Mississippi: 83% #41 New Mexico: 82.9% #42 Tennessee: 82.9% #43 Alabama: 82.4% #44 Kentucky: 81.8% #45 California: 81.3% #46 Rhode Island: 81.1% #47 North Carolina: 80.9% #48 West Virginia: 80.9% #49 Arkansas: 79.2% #50 Louisiana: 78.7% #51 Texas: 78.3%
Hmmm, looks like GA ranks just below NY by 0.2% with more than 85% of it's adult citizens with at least a HS diploma, and it ranks above CA and RI.
Sure our education system needs improvement...most of them do everywhere in the US. But ours isn't as bad as some on this site would like you to believe.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:41am
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:41am | ignore this person | warn this person
you're cherrypicking.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 09:48am
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 09:48am "you're cherrypicking."
Actually, it's the first thing I came across when I googled state education stats. And I'd say quoting data that's over 2 years old is more "cherrypicking" than what I posted. You'll also notice I stated GA's education system needs improvement, just as many across the nation do. But I seriously take issue with all the GA bashing going on here.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:55am
But I seriously take issue with all the GA bashing going on here. Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
as well you should. that the data is two years old does not invalidate it, or the point that was made. not much has turned around in two years.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 10:26am
you're cherrypicking.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 09:48am
But I seriously take issue with all the GA bashing going on here.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:55am
I'm a little rusty, but I'm pretty sure JR (a.k.a. ED) is from NY. Can you say, "Hoisted by his own petard?" Sure you can.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 10:29am
Speaking of disappointment, did everyone see this? **************************************************************
http://realclearpolitics.blogs.time.com/ 2008/12/04/brown-concedes-cas-4th-district/
Brown Concedes CA's 4th District
Democrat Charlie Brown, running in California's 4th District, conceded the race to Republican Tom McClintock yesterday. After weeks of ballots continuing to trickle in, Brown ultimately trailed McClintock by 1,576 votes out of more than 367,000 votes cast. Brown chose not to ask for a recount, ensuring McClintock's place in the 111th Congress.
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 10:40am
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 10:26am
"that the data is two years old does not invalidate it"
I didn't say it was *invalid*. I stated that the data I posted was newer and compared GA to other states in the US. If you're talking about how bad GA is compared to other states, then compare it to the other states with the most recent data available. How is that "cherrypicking" again?
"...not much has turned around in two years"
Considering it takes at least 14-13 years to educate a child from Pre-K to 12th Grade, I'd say it would take a lot longer than 2 years to "turn things around". But that doesn't change the fact that newer data is more demonstrative of GA's current situation than old data.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 10:46am
This is actually not a horrible result for Obama. Things will probably get worse economically the next 12-18 months before they get better. Without a fillibuster proof majority, he has some political cover and some blame to share should things go poorly at first. If the President has high approval ratings it always works well to blame congress for not passing "all" of your agenda. It's worked since forever.
There would always be some conservative Democratic Senators in Red States who might choose to vote against a lot of the more progressive measures anyway. So they still would have needed to cooperate with Specter, Snowe, Collins, and the other handful of persuadable GOP Senators.
Posted by jetrain at 12/04/2008 @ 11:00am
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 10:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
you cherrypicked the HS statistics, ignoring child mortality etc.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 11:16am
Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 12/04/2008 @ 09:15am
Oh, okay...how about Goebbels' Big Lie theory then?
Saying that "Chambliss winning is a victory for decency"...and claiming that the Cleland ads were "issue-oriented" and "about Cleland picking unions over our safety, not questioning his patriotism"?
Old, relatively decent and honorable John McCain called the ads "repulsive"....and he was right.
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 11:24am
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 11:16am "you cherrypicked the HS statistics, ignoring child mortality etc."
I work for the education system, so it was the data that first caught my attention. If you like, I'll see what I can find on the other stats that's more recent AND actually compares GA to other states. (It may take a little while...I don't have unlimited free time.)
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 11:28am
I honestly do not understand how Socialism is progressive! I thought capitalism and free-trade were much more new than the thread-bare concept of Socialism. I found this article to be highly offensive. I grew up in GA and to call us backwood, hillbilly, rednecks is totally unacceptable. I'm proud of my conservative state, and do not like when it is attacked.
Posted by LaDolceVita at 12/04/2008 @ 12:12pm
I thought capitalism and free-trade were much more new than the thread-bare concept of Socialism.----Posted by LaDolceVita at 12/04/2008 @ 12:12pm
So your time-line of economics theory has capitalism coming AFTER socialism, LDV?
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 12:39pm
I thought capitalism and free-trade were much more new than the thread-bare concept of Socialism.
and you are wrong. read a bit of history, such as that of the progressive era in the US, and then come back.
the US talked free trade for others, while not practicing it. it was called the open door policy.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 1:55pm
I would say that I believe that I have the correct moral stand in upholding life over death of innocent children, but it doesn't make me morally superior.-----Posted by lvliberty1 at 12/04/2008 @ 1:51pm
I deliberately didn't say the words "morally SUPREME"....I meant "superior" as in "greater than".
But I'll rephrase...are you morally BETTER than tose who support a woman's right to choose on abortion?
Or, given you have the "correct moral stand" and we don't...doesn't that give you a "moral superiority" over us?
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 2:28pm
none of the southland's defenders confronted the sorry statistics cited here. whatsamatter, ashamed? you should be.
instead of singing the praises you might work to turn those awful statistics around. no place is perfect, but denial is not just a river in Egypt.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 08:56am
I'm more ashamed of the entire country's attitude toward public education than anything else. Besides, I thought the more well-traveled a person was, the more open-minded one was. I was obviously wrong. Saying your bashing is in response to someone's "love it or leave it", is the crock. I can understand not wanting to live in a certain area but to bash because of a post is juvenile and undercuts you're self-described culture-maven status. Unfortunately, alot of posters on this site have a stereotypical view of southerners. That's cool with me, though. I accept all regardless of shortcomings as I hope others are with me. Also, have you ever lived in GA?
Darin, I don't think the Klan goes to St. Mtn. anymore. Of course I don't know anyone who would have this type of knowledge and I'm sure the Klan isn't publicizing the meeting as in times past.
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 2:44pm
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 09:06am
That's funny. Our perspectives were different regarding the ads. I thought the Thanksgiving ad was lame. I took it as a ploy. "Hey everybody! Look at my nice family with grandma and the kids. Were good, clean, wholesome Americans just like you." You are right. The other ad resonated more with me than the family ad. I do agree, however, that if Martin did more of those ti could have been a boon to his caimpaign. Ah well, there's always next time.
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 2:49pm
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 11:28am
What do you do in the educational system? Both my mother and brother are teachers.
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 2:52pm
Posted by emile duBois at 12/03/2008 @ 9:23pm [GA Stats] "Proficiency in 8th Grade Math (2003): 41st" -> % of Students Above Proficient, Grade 8 Math (most recent) by state: tied for 38th (Up 3 points)
Proficiency in 8th Grade Reading (2003): 38th -> % of Students Above Proficient, Grade 8 Reading (most recent) by state: tied for 38th (no change)
Additional data: % of Students Above Proficient, Grade 8 Math (most recent) by state: tied for 30th % of Students Above Proficient, Grade 8 Writing (most recent) by state: 25th (NOTE: I think you may have been "cherry-picking" the Math and Reading data as it wasn't as good as the Science and Writing data.)
"Public High School Grad rate (2002): 49th" -> couldn't find any data specifically about the graduation rate for public HS
"Percent Teens High School Dropouts: 48th (lowest to highest)" -> Percent Teens High School Dropouts (2008): 41st (lowest to highest) (gain of 7 points!) High school diploma or higher, by percentage (most recent) by state: 36th (This gives them credit if they dropped out but then went back and graduated)
"Morgan Quitno Smartest State: 40th" -> I couldn't find any recent data online from Morgan Quinto, but I did find the following: Percent of People 25 Years and Over Who Have Completed an Advanced Degree: tied for 26th (highest to lowest)
"State Health Ranking (2005): 43rd" -> State Overall Health Ranking (2007): 40th (up 3 points)
"Percent Low Birthweight Babies: 41st (lowest to highest)" -> Births of Low Birthweight as a % of Births (most recent) by state: 11th (highest to lowest) (meaning GA was better by 2 points from your scale)
more to come...
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 2:57pm
We all do realize that it is Georgia we're talking about? I mean why is anyone surprised how Georgia votes? The outcome was to be expected.
Posted by JN at 12/04/2008 @ 3:02pm
...continued "Infant Mortality (2005): 44th (lowest to highest) Infant Mortality Rate: 43rd (lowest to highest)" (both of these were listed in your stats, so I don't know which is more recent) -> Infant Death Rate by state: 7th (highest to lowest) (or 43rd by your scale, no change)
"Percent without Health Insurance (2005): 43rd (lowest to highest)" -> I found this: One of the areas Georgia has made progress in is getting more of its citizens insured, shrinking its uninsured population to 17.7 in 2007 compared to 18.3 the year before. Among all states it's an even bigger jump, going from 45th out of 50 states in 2006 to number 38 last year (2007)(That's a gain of 7 points in 1 year)
"Cardiovascular Deaths (2005): 41st (lowest to highest)" -> couldn't find any state comparison data
"Total Mortality (2005): 41st (lowest to highest)" -> couldn't find anything more recent than 05 for total death rates, but I did find this: Number of documented alligator attacks since 1948: #1 FL with 337 #2 TX with 15 #3 GA with 9 and SC with 9 There have been 17 fatal attacks in Florida and one fatal attack in Georgia. Additional deaths which were previously reported have been ruled out because the wounds appeared to be post-mortem. The most common cases were lacerations or scratches on the hands, whereas the most common activity attributed to the attack was an attempt to capture, pick up or exhibit the alligator. (So if you move to the south, don't mess with the ‘gators ;)
"Premature Death (2005): 41st (lowest to highest)" -> I couldn't find anything specifically on premature death
more to come...
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 3:03pm
continued...
"Overall Status of Children: 44th" -> I had trouble finding a comparable stat for this ambiguous one. I did find this though: Homicide > Victims by Age > Under 14 (most recent) by state: 41st (highest to lowest) (making it one of the states with the lowest number of homicide victims under the age of 14)
"Percent Children in Poverty: 36th(lowest to highest)" ->(no change) (DC has the highest % and NY is less than 1% lower than GA.)
"Per Capita Personal Income (2005): 35th" ->Personal income per capita by state (Total personal income for third quarter, Bureau of Economic Analysis 2005): 11th (highest to lowest) (I was assuming yours was highest to lowest as well. I don't know what the discrepancy could be...)
"Three Year Average Poverty Rate (2002-2004): 21st" -> couldn't find a 3 year average poverty rate
Whew! Stats are exhausting! I'm not doing anymore stat searching for a while!
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 3:10pm
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 2:52pm "What do you do in the educational system? Both my mother and brother are teachers."
My mother and sister (and several cousins and friends) are teachers, but I'm not. I had the option to become certified, but I don't think I would be a very good teacher. I have a BS in Computer Engineering from GaTech (what about that game!), but I have young kids and want to have a work schedule that's closer to their school schedule. I manage the student information database for our middle and high school.
Posted by jayneslilsis at 12/04/2008 @ 3:15pm
How's that change working for everybody? Without even knowing it, 53% of Americans voted for John McCains cabinet. Thank you.
Posted by elhatton at 12/04/2008 @ 3:33pm
Posted by elhatton at 12/04/2008 @ 3:33pm
Yes, those are EXACTLY the same people that McCain would appoint, because as we saw from his Vice-Presidential pick, he loves moderates and centrists.
Geezzz!
Posted by Mask at 12/04/2008 @ 4:00pm
Note to Mask-
McCain ran as a REPUBLICAN. He had to have someone to get the "base" of the party to go along. Do some research on McCain's career and actual accomplishments and not just commercials. However, he lost and Obama will have my good wishes and thankfulness he saw McCain and his crew as the right way too.
Posted by elhatton at 12/04/2008 @ 4:27pm
if you think McCain would have appointed the cabinet Obama did, you are completely out of your mind.
Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 6:00pm
Posted by k330k at 12/04/2008 @ 08:18am
Bama, the Gators and then to top it all off Tech! Ughhh!
SEC Championship this weekend, I hope Bama crushes the Gators!
Posted by Dawglover at 12/04/2008 @ 9:56pm
"if you think McCain would have appointed the cabinet Obama did, you are completely out of your mind". Posted by emile duBois at 12/04/2008 @ 6:00pm
Yup. McCain would never have appointed a fugitive slime-ball pardoner like Holder. He would have appointed someone with scruples, not an inside-the-beltway lifer.
"Change We Can't Believe in".
Posted by twillie at 12/04/2008 @ 10:41pm
an inside-the-beltway lifer.
like McCain?
Posted by emile duBois at 12/05/2008 @ 10:02am