Fightin' for O'Bama

SOUTH BEND, Indiana -- It was a beautiful afternoon for politics in this classic college town, home of the Notre Dame Fighting Irish.

Democrats here have adopted Barack Obama as one of their own, passing out stickers that read "Catholics For Obama." The local Democratic Party chairman, Butch Morgan, wears a silver cross around his neck next to an Obama button. For his area, Obama has been a blessing.

Obama's main office in downtown South Bend was hopping with volunteers on Sunday. Across the street, the lines for early voting stretched around the block, hundreds deep.

"The energy level is non-stop," says Morgan. "The Obama campaign never let up since the primary. The McCain campaign underestimated them. I told my Republican friends 'this is not a diversionary tactic. He's here to win the state.'"

Indiana is a coveted pickup opportunity for Obama, a remarkable fact given that President Bush won this state by 22 points in '04. And if he improbably flips the state, South Bend will be a key to his success--along with Gary and Fort Wayne, the city forms a U of blue in Northern Indiana amidst a sea of red.

"South Bend is very Democratic but the state always went Republican," says Troy Warner, an electrical union worker who started the area's first grassroots pro-Obama group, Yes We Can Michiana. "We've never seen ads, staff or a campaign here on a presidential scale."

Now it's just the opposite. Warner and other team leaders are burning the midnight oil, overseeing hordes of invigorated local Democrats and volunteers pouring in from nearby states like Illinois and Michigan. The Obama campaign has nine local offices in St. Joseph's county, home to South Bend, and an important swing area. The McCain campaign, from what I've observed, is nowhere to be found.

Some pundits predicted that Obama might have trouble with the type of Catholic voters who populate the area, but thus far Obama's winning a majority of Catholics in Indiana, along with nationwide. The economy is the main reason why. "There's a lot of fear pushed by the market, grocery bills, gas prices," says Warner. "A lot of people in '04 in my union were driven by the NRA and church to vote Republican. Now they've switched over to vote jobs first."

The local economy, Warner says, is "slowing." The unemployment rate in St. Joseph's County has more than doubled since 2000, from 3.2 % to 7.2%. Even when religion predominates, wedge issue like abortion don't have the resonance they once did. Butch Morgan has a picture of Jesus in his office and a sign reading, "Pray to end abortion." Like many Democrats here, Morgan is pro-life. But he's planning to vote for a pro-choice candidate and his pro-choice running mate. "Whenever this comes up, I tell people 'Obama believes education is the answer' [to reducing the number of abortions]. I don't know anyone who's pro-abortion."

Some McCain supporters have signs in their yard that say "Vote Pro-Life." In evangelical southern Indiana, guns and God will still push a substantial number of Republicans toward McCain-Palin. But not many in South Bend. I accompanied two Obama volunteers--a mother of five from Chicago with two kids in the military and a graduate student in biology at Notre Dame--as they knocked on doors in an affluent, leafy area just south of Notre Dame's campus. Obama signs outnumbered McCain by 3 or 4 to 1, even though a few residents told us their Obama signs have recently been disappearing (the same thing is happening in nearby Elkhart). Democrats in Indiana are embracing the top of the ticket, rather than running away from it.

The Democratic gubernatorial candidate, Jill Long Thompson--a deputy secretary of agriculture in the Clinton Administration--named her final bus tour of the state "The Road to Change." "I'm running to be a partner in change with the next president, Barack Obama," Thompson said at a campaign stop today.

The McCain campaign in no longer taking anything for granted here. Palin has visited Indiana three times recently and McCain will parachute in for a get-out-the-vote rally on Monday afternoon in Indianapolis. A Republican presidential candidate in Indiana the day before the election? Talk about a Hail Mary.

UPDATE: Obama will hit the Hoosier State on Election Day to "meet with voters informally" in Indianapolis, AP reports. Further evidence his campaign is bullish about their chances here.

Comments (100)

1. "I don't know anyone who's pro-abortion."

   i bet frei'll think up someone •~•

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 9:52pm

2. nice picture.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 9:53pm

3. So, based on the following quote from Sen Obama, he is going to a) bankrupt the coal industry and b) cause electricity rates to skyrocket for everyone, not only for what they use in their own houses, but passed on in costs for everything they buy on a daily basis? This is going to help the American people? Christ, why are we voting for this guy again?

   "The problem is not technical, uh, and the problem is not mastery of the legislative intricacies of Washington. The problem is, uh, can you get the American people to say, "This is really important," and force their representatives to do the right thing? That requires mobilizing a citizenry. That requires them understanding what is at stake. Uh, and climate change is a great example.

   You know, when I was asked earlier about the issue of coal, uh, you know -- Under my plan of a cap and trade system, electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket. Even regardless of what I say about whether coal is good or bad. Because I'm capping greenhouse gases, coal power plants, you know, natural gas, you name it -- whatever the plants were, whatever the industry was, uh, they would have to retrofit their operations. That will cost money. They will pass that money on to consumers."

   Posted by pontificus at 11/02/2008 @ 9:55pm

4. "In evangelical southern Indiana, guns and God will still push a substantial number of Republicans toward McCain-Palin."

   well,

   god's gonna push other voters, too.

   i bet a lot of them demohoosiers got guns, too.

   you betcha.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 9:56pm

5. There is a context?

   Obama spokesbot says this was taken out of context: "So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can. It's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

   Can we shut down the coal industry?

   Yes we can.

   Can we double everyone's electric bill?

   Yes we can.

   Can we shut down the economy and put aluminum workers out of work?

   Yes we can.

   Can we ship even more jobs to China?

   Yes we can.

   Can we have China burn even more coal not as cleanly?

   Yes we can.

   Posted by pontificus at 11/02/2008 @ 9:57pm

6. "The McCain campaign, from what I've observed, is nowhere to be found."

   great article:

   I MADE 100 PHONE CALLS FOR JOHN MCCAIN

   I volunteered to phone bank for the McCain campaign, and called voters in Ohio and Virginia. And now I'm more confused than ever about what an "undecided" voter is.

   http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2008/11/03/mccain_calls/

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 9:57pm

7. "even though a few residents told us their Obama signs have recently been disappearing"

   wire 'em up!

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 9:58pm

8. "Talk about a Hail Mary."

   hey, the lions almost won today...

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:00pm

9. UPDATE: Obama will hit the Hoosier State on Election Day to "meet with voters informally" in Indianapolis, AP reports. Further evidence his campaign is bullish about their chances here.

   i wonder if he'll visit the Broad Ripple Village, Brookside or Butler-Tarkington neighbourhoods.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:04pm

10. Hey, do you think people in Indiana use electricity? Has anyone in the unbiased media bothered to tell them that Obama plans to double their electricity bills?

    "So if somebody wants to build a coal-powered plant, they can; it's just that it will bankrupt them because they're going to be charged a huge sum for all that greenhouse gas that's being emitted."

    Calls and e-mails to West Virginia Obama campaign officials seeking comment for this story were not returned as of Sunday evening.

    According to the West Virginia Office of Miners' Health, Safety and Training, the coal industry provides about 40,000 direct jobs in the state, including those for miners, mine contractors, coal preparation plant employees and mine supply company workers.

    West Virginia is the second largest coal-producing state in the country behind Wyoming and accounts for about 15 percent of all coal production in the United States. The Mountain State leads the nation in underground coal production and leads the nation in coal exports with over 50 million tons shipped to 23 countries. West Virginia accounts for about half of U.S. coal exports."

    Posted by pontificus at 11/02/2008 @ 10:14pm

11. coal's bad for you.

    all black and toxic.

    maybe in a hundred years we'll know what to do with it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:19pm

12. Posted by pontificus at 11/02/2008 @ 9:57pm

    hi ponti.

    don't be despondent. the best fiscal managers of the recent past were mr. clinton et al. that, despite <i>their</i> bubble.....

    mr. obama's gonna do the same.

    tax cuts + more spending = flush.

    here, they cut the Goods and Services Tax by 2%.

    whoop--dee do.....

    however, that meager cut in bob'n'doug the plumbers tax burden will have our country soon back in the red.

    2% would have left us with money for a contingency.

    and mr. harper was just following the tax cut + more spending trend.

    mr. obama wants to be re-elected in 2012. he's gonna try real hard to fix the fiscal mess.

    he's listening to summers*, not marx.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:20pm

13. *not the greatest idea.....

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:20pm

14. Checking ozone levels becoming routine for many

    By Patrick O'Driscoll, USA TODAY

    As the summer's biggest heat wave swamped much of the USA this month, buzzwords hung in the stifling air. "Spare the Air" in Sacramento. "Ozone Watch" in Houston. "Code Red" in Washington, Baltimore and Raleigh, N.C. "NOZONE ACTION" IN INDIANAPOLIS. "Smog Alert" in Cincinnati. "Ozone Action" in Chicago, St. Louis and Philadelphia. However you say it, August is the peak of the nation's 6-month ozone "season," when summer heat and sunlight cook tailpipe exhaust, industrial emissions and other vaporous toxins into a lung-searing haze.

    But in an unprecedented number of U.S. cities, residents are tuning in and logging on to local air-quality forecasts and alerts that were unheard of less than a decade ago. For many, monitoring the state of the air they breathe is becoming as routine as checking the daily weather report.

    THE SUN. IT'S HOT.

    i'll wager 0.37 quatloos that obama takes indiana.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:24pm

15. I spent a lovely afternoon knocking on doors and hanging door hangers .. and only got called a baby killer once (in southern IN - not too bad). In my 50 years this is the first time I've ever volunteered for a political ticket.

    Ponti - IN is ranked 49th of 50 in environmental conditions in the USA (see the Forbes ranking for "green states") in large part due to air quality from coal power plants. A full 95% of IN's power comes from coal .. but its changing. We have large wind farms going on line upstate, and other regions thinking about diversification of energy.

    Takes a lot to change these Hoosiers, but its happening.

    Change - get used to it.

    Posted by leftofcenter at 11/02/2008 @ 10:31pm

16. i bet they get a lot of ethanol money, too.

    boooooooooo.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:43pm

17. "Study Says Ethanol Subsidies Need to be Critically Evaluated Associated Press-

    MUNCIE, Ind. - A recent study by energy subsidy analyst, Doug Koplow, states that government subsidies for the ethanol industry need to be more critically evaluated.

    He questions whether the ethanol subsidies are the best way to reduce dependence on foreign oil. "This is simply unsustainable, and likely reflects a mix of reasonable corn prices, historically high gasoline prices, and very generous state and federal subsidies" Indiana has at least 11 ethanol plants announced or under construction. In January 2005, the state had just one working ethanol plant.

    The government supports ethanol production in several ways, including a federal excise tax. Indiana has an additional ethanol production tax credit and tax credit for retailers who sell E85 ethanol. Koplow estimates that government support for ethanol could reach $8.7 billion a year by 2010. He said the subsidies should be scrutinized and researched to see if they are cost effective. "

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:43pm

18. "Obama Camp Closely Linked With Ethanol"

    booooo.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:45pm

19. Obama calls ethanol "transitional"

    March 17, 2008 11:40AM

    As presidential hopefuls on all sides field pressure to be more specific, Sen. Obama (D-Ill.) added some substance to his support for alternative energy.

    At a Saturday stop in Terre Haute, Indiana, the guru of change responded to a question about corn-based ethanol by describing it as a "transitional" technology and pointed out it is not the panacea of the country's foreign oil dependence.

    well, a little better.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:47pm

20. "McCain has argued that government support for ethanol actually raises gasoline prices. He has claimed ethanol does nothing to make the U.S. more energy independent. He has even questioned the science behind making fuel from corn - contending that ethanol provides less energy than the fossil fuels consumed to produce"

    yeah!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:48pm

21. MCCAIN'S FARM FLIP

    The senator has been a critic of ethanol. That doesn't play in Iowa. So the Straight Talk Express has taken a detour.

    nooo..

    say it ain't so, john!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:49pm

22. For a politician like McCain, the stakes go far beyond a little name-calling. When McCain ran for president in 1999 and 2000, he barely campaigned in Iowa, knowing that his anti-ethanol stance wouldn't cut it in corn country.

    Four years later, McCain hadn't changed his tune. "Ethanol is a product that would not exist if Congress didn't create an artificial market for it. No one would be willing to buy it," McCain said in November 2003. "Yet thanks to agricultural subsidies and ethanol producer subsidies, it is now a very big business - tens of billions of dollars that have enriched a handful of corporate interests - primarily one big corporation, ADM. Ethanol does nothing to reduce fuel consumption, nothing to increase our energy independence, nothing to improve air quality."

    Even the most slippery politician would have a tough time wriggling away from a statement as unequivocal as that one, yet McCain's Straight Talk Express has been taking some audacious detours during recent trips to Iowa.

    In a flip-flop so absurd it'll be a wonder if it doesn't get lampooned by late-night comedians - not to mention opponents' negative ads - McCain is now proclaiming himself a "strong" ethanol supporter.

    "I support ethanol and I think it is a vital, a vital alternative energy source not only because of our dependency on foreign oil but its greenhouse gas reduction effects," he said in an August speech in Grinnell, Iowa, as reported by the Associated Press.

    "Well, at least now we know he's serious about running for president," quips Brown University presidential politics expert Darrell West, upon being told of McCain's ethanol about-face.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:51pm

23. get out the corn vote!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:52pm

24. "I have reason to believe that even if McCain becomes president of the United States, he will also be inclined to sit and talk with Syria. I can tell you this on the record: Senator Joe Lieberman, who is supposed to be very close to McCain, has said this explicitly and very clearly to me personally."

    Syrian ambassador Imad Moustapha

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 10:56pm

25. Has anyone in the unbiased media bothered to tell them that Obama plans to double their electricity bills?Posted by rantificus at 11/02/2008 @ 10:14pm

    From obama's to do list: Note to Self: Double Indiana's electricity bills.

    Now does that make a whole hell of a lot of sense?

    Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/02/2008 @ 11:09pm

26. Translation: ooh Barack, you better keep my utility bills nice and low.

    You old skinflint

    Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/02/2008 @ 11:15pm

27. Posted by pontificus at 11/02/2008 @ 9:55pm |

    Again, great thing about PONTI?

    You never have to read the Drudge Report again. Even if you thought you might miss something...he'll re-post it here!

    LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/02/2008 @ 11:34pm

28. hey mask.

    you're up late.

    ≥≤≥≤≥≤

    "About a fourth of voters will still use electronic machines that offer NO PAPER RECORD TO VERIFY that their choice was accurately recorded, even though these machines are vulnerable to hacking and crashes that drop votes. The machines will be used by most voters in Indiana, Kentucky, PENNSYLVANIA, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia."

    hmmmmm......

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 11:37pm

29. "I pushed the Democrat ticket, and it jumped to the Republican ticket for president of the United States," said Calvin Thomas, 81, an Obama supporter who tried to vote early in Ripley, W.Va. "I'm a registered Republican, and I've voted in every presidential election since 1948. I don't like seeing my vote do something I didn't tell it to do. I take that real serious."

    Mr. Thomas's daughter, Micki Clendenin, said the same thing had happened to her.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 11:38pm

30. This map shows each state re-sized in proportion to the relative influence of the individual voters who live there. The numbers indicate the total delegates to the Electoral College from each state, and how many eligible voters a single delegate from each state represents.

    http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/11/02/opi

    nion/20081102_OPCHART.html

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 11:51pm

31. This system, along with the winner-take-all practice used to allocate most states' electoral votes, creates the potential for an absurd outcome. In the unlikely event that all 213 million eligible voters cast ballots, either John McCain or Barack Obama could win enough states to capture the White House with only 47.8 million strategically located votes. The presidency could be won with just 22 percent of the electorate's support, only 16 percent of the entire population's.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 11:53pm

32. Thank you for the article--Indiana hasn't been getting as much media attention as it may well deserve. As a volunteer who came all the way from Chicago to canvass for Obama in Indianapolis twice in the past few weeks (including in a trailer park...), it is extremely encouraging to get be able to put into context the ground work that I know to be going on. Since Kentucky and Indiana are the first two states to close their polls (6pm ET), if they project Obama to win in Indiana or even if it is too close to call, it will certainly be an ominous sign for McCain for the rest of the evening. Obama is definitely trying to make a statement in competing in Indiana.

    Posted by overachievadiva at 11/03/2008 @ 01:17am

33. IN BUSH'S END-GAME, LOTS OF CHANGES ON ENVIRONMENT

    Sun Nov 2, 2008 8:39am EST

    WASHINGTON (Reuters) - As the U.S. presidential candidates sprint toward the finish line, the Bush administration is also sprinting to enact environmental policy changes before leaving power.

    Whether it's getting wolves off the Endangered Species List, allowing power plants to operate near national parks, loosening regulations for factory farm waste or making it easier for mountaintop coal-mining operations, these proposed changes have found little favor with environmental groups.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSTRE4A117D20081102

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 02:09am

34. HOLDS INTERNATIONAL CONVENTIONS ON HOW TO EFFECT A TRANSFER OF WEALTH, FROM THE "GODLESS" OF THE WORLD TO THE "GODLY"..

    C. Peter Wagner, New Apostolic Reformation head and friend of Thomas Muthee (who "anointed" and blessed Sarah Palin as a political leader in October 2005), declared in a June 2006 "decree" which Wagner claimed was backed by God's authority,

    "God has declared through His prophets that the wealth of the wicked will be released to the Kingdom of God. Powers of darkness will diminish and powers of light will flourish. I declare this to the principalities and powers who have been agents of Satan to obstruct this transfer of wealth for too long: Your time is up! Your evil powers are broken!...

    I declare that this wealth will be distributed for the extension of the Kingdom of God by the apostles that God has set in the church....

    I decree that vast amounts of wealth will be released supernaturally, even from godless and pagan sources. . . These will be entrusted to God's agents. Profits will increase exponentially.

    The enemy's camp will be plundered."

    On October 16, 2005, prior to anointing Sarah Palin, Thomas Muthee explained the "Seven Mountains" program advocated by C. Peter Wagner and his organization. Muthee called for a Christian "infiltration" and urged his audience to take control of of key sectors of society such as business and finance, schools and education, media and entertainment, and politics and government.

    ≤≥≤≥≤≥≤≥≤≥

    SPREAD THE WEALTH!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 02:31am

35. Change,

    like lower std of living

    •• i thought you lived humbly. what difference does it make to you? in any case, i think mr. obama's popularity signals a significant rejection of the current economic destruction "plan".

    like jihadists given free reign in most of the world

    •• you really are afraid, aren't you?

    like fed funding of infanticide

    •• that money would be much better spent killing muslims, right?

    like a trillion dollars in increased welfare payments (aka Obama tax plan)

    •• as if.

    like more shifting of corporations overseas as Obama increases corp taxes, already among the highest in the world

    •• so the folks who lost their jobs at maytag who currently now work at wal-mart are going to work now work at the dollar store?

    like fines for not buying the Obama mandated health care coverage.

    •• do you think jesus worked for profit?

    like small businesses bankrupted by the Obama tax and healthcare plans

    •• again, everything's been working out real great with the current "plan", hasn't it.

    like massive inflation and layoffs as a result of the Obama tax plan

    •• you mean like the '90s?

    like a return to the Carter interest rates

    •• you forgot to mention mr. reagan.

    change you can believe in, but I choose not to.

    •• you're chasing shadows.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 11/03/2008 @ 02:10am

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 02:41am

36. The order Bush needs to place in effect immediately would be an executive order to mandate domestic drilling in Alaska and off our coastal areas.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 11/03/2008 @ 02:14am

    glug, glug, glug.

    lost like a mastadon in la brea........

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 02:43am

37. "And we talk a lot about, OK, we're confident that we're going to win on Tuesday, so from there, the first 100 days, how are we going to kick in the plan that will get this economy back on the right track and really shore up the strategies that we need over in Iraq and Iran to win those wars".

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 03:00am

38. Change is here and now. Even if they cheat and Obama loses, things will change.

    And, with any changes there are always those who cling to the past. Their arguements usually contain the names Carter, Reagan and sometimes Clinton.

    History has been revised and reinforced by propagandists.

    Reagnomics was almost 30 years ago. Even if it was half as successful as any right winger proclaims; why would it work now?

    The US was attacked by terrorists. Airliners were hi-jacked and used as weapons. So, the conventional wisdom is to fight them with an expensive military designed to fight the USSR in a major conflict.

    Technology offers new cleaner sources of energy and there are those who profess loyalty to coal.

    Posted by koroviev at 11/03/2008 @ 03:54am

39. Here is a thought on "Coal" power-Are you aware that Exxon-Mobile in its earlier form called Standard Oil of New Jersey has sat on a "Patent" to make synthetic gasoline from coal since 1927. This process was used by Hitler to get around Germany's dependence on Foreign Oil. It is also used in almost all of the more developed Nations but not the U.S.-might interfere with the oil monopolies! As far as Indiana, they have also had economic problems from Bush Policies-Hope Congress gets rid of the hawks before they lead us into total disaster!

    Posted by RITEON at 11/03/2008 @ 05:44am

40. Posted by lvliberty1 at 11/03/2008 @ 02:14am

    Bush did all that he COULD do on drilling, LVLIB.

    I know it's a shock and disappointment to you (and Dubya), but believe it or not, Presidents can't just do ANYTHING they want. There are actually two OTHER branches of our Government. (mentioned in the US Constitution, in case you're not familiar with them!)

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 07:16am

41. Pontificus, What? no posts on Prof Rahsid Khalidi? The "terrorist" that the IRI, headed by John McCain, gave $400,000? How many Israelis did John McCain kill, Pontificus?

    you brought this up Ponti, I thought for sure someone as insightful as you would want to discuss it further, really delve into Obamas...er McCains, ASSOCIATIONS with this man and his Palestinian (read: terrorist, not democratic wanna-bes) groups.

    Right?

    -----

    Luvvy, why do you live in fear? Why, as a Christian Elder, do you spread fear of your brother? Why do you assume the worst of people?

    Why don't you and Ponti practice what you preach?

    Posted by crabwalk at 11/03/2008 @ 07:47am

42. "And under the socialized economies of France and Germany that you lefties think are so great, unemployment rates are 10 percent or more, and that's considering that people on the dole are 'employed' under government sinecures."-Pntificus- 10/30/2008 @ 4:04pm

    [Elkhart, like many places in America, has fallen on hard times. The city of Elkhart, population 52,700, is known as the "RV Capital of the World." Yet in the past year Monaco Coach has closed three manufacturing plants in the area, laying off 1,400 workers. The unemployment rate has climbed to over 10 percent.]-The Nation, Hoosiers for Obama

    Ponti, is ELkhart IN a socialist country?

    Posted by crabwalk at 11/03/2008 @ 07:56am

43. Posted by lvliberty1 at 11/03/2008 @ 02:10am

    a post so riddled with GOP talking points and absolute falsehoods that it does not deserve a point-by-point response

    Posted by leftofcenter at 11/03/2008 @ 07:58am

44. Only one more day to go. The eye of the storm. The day before election day has a strange kind of ambience.

    The anticipation is a lot like the day before a long planned fishing trip when I was a kid.

    Anyway, at least after the morrow we won't have to listen much to these right wingnuts crowing the talking points of morons.

    Then I can get some rest..

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 08:45am

45. Has anyone from the "whinning right" ever won an argument on this blog? I have most of the whinners on ignore, but I wonder if they have ever posted anything with any amount of substance or truth. I still wonder why so many of waste your time on them. We could be having real debates on issues instead of sweeping the floor with shit.

    Posted by Truthman at 11/03/2008 @ 08:55am

46. a post so riddled with GOP talking points and absolute falsehoods that it does not deserve a point-by-point response

    Posted by leftofcenter at 11/03/2008 @ 07:58am

    hmmm....

    are you trying to tell me something?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 10:03am

47. pontificus don't you ever get tired of filling your empty head with all that right wing lunatic slime about Obama???? Most of us don't even bother reading it. Because we know which gutter it came from. It's all the same fear rhetoric. There isn't anything Obama isn't going to do according to you wing nuts! So you aren't telling us anything new! Most can't tell us exactly what is going to be so bad...just that it's going to be bad! So you can shut off the fear machine and go home. I already voted and it was for Obama. He was the only candidate with a brain!

    Posted by ganddw42 at 11/03/2008 @ 10:26am

48. like a trillion dollars in increased welfare payments (aka Obama tax plan)

    change you can believe in, but I choose not to.

    Posted by lvliberty1 at 11/03/2008 @ 02:10am | warn this person

    Liv - ever thought that you are a military industrial complex welfare recipient? What about the tax exemption on your church? Sure you aren't passing your tax burden onto someone else? Another form of welfare you gleefully indulge in.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 11:38am

49. Anybody catch Obama flipping off McCain in a campaign rally this morning? It's on Drudge right now. Sure, it was accidental! Just like it was when he did it to Hillary! Why, he was just scratching his face (heh heh). Change we need!

    Okay, well, looks like Obama may win this one, and we're headed for a repeat of Jimmy Carter, only this time in spades. Obama is a world-class liar, a two-bit thug, and a trojan horse for every bad idea that the left has been storing up, and people should be prepared for full scale assaults on the first amendment (the 'fairness doctrine'), the second amendment ('I believe in the Second Amendment and 'common sense' controls on guns, like gun bans) and I don't believe workers have a right to be free from intimadati0n by union organizers. Time to buy gold and guns, we're in for a wild ride the next 4 years.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 1:35pm

50. Oh, did I forget to mention that Obama also promised to bankrupt anyone thinking about building a coal plant, and that he expressly promises to send the price of electricity skyrocketing (his words). Change we need!

    This in addition to promising to raise taxes during a recession, which most economists agree is exactly the wrong thing to do, and is guaranteed to cost jobs. Change we need!

    Change is all I'll we'll be left with in a couple of years. The change we have in our pockets.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 1:49pm

51. "About a fourth of voters will still use electronic machines that offer NO PAPER RECORD TO VERIFY that their choice was accurately recorded, even though these machines are vulnerable to hacking and crashes that drop votes. The machines will be used by most voters in Indiana, Kentucky, PENNSYLVANIA, Tennessee, Texas and Virginia."

    hmmmmm......

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2008 @ 11:37pm

    Don't forget Georgia. I voted on one three weeks ago. Truly shameful. All this technology and I can't get a fucking voting receipt. Too much trust in terribly vulnerable machines. I hope my vote will be correctly counted.

    Posted by k330k at 11/03/2008 @ 1:53pm

52. ponti-No need for panic or paranoia so calm down.If Obama sucks then we can hire a new one in four years.Every election, from the first one, has it's people who claim that all will end if whomever gets elected,like you do, and then whomever gets elected and we survive it.Sometimes we go through good times and sometimes bad,but we get through it and we survived Bush and will continue on..You never know-Obama could end up being quite good.One never knows when it comes to the job of POTUS.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 2:16pm

53. Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 1:35pm |

    Now, PONTI, I just heard Rush on the radio and he said "The polls were wrong about Carter and Reagan, they could be wrong this time too! The liberal media is trying to convince you it's 'all over'!"

    Now, surely, you don't think Rush would be falsely optimistic, aka "blowing smoke up your ass", do you????

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 2:19pm

54. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 2:16pm

    Sorry, IM, but that doesn't make sense. In this case, Obama's promises are all bad. I speak to Obama supporters all the time and they either don't know about them (because they're not informed) or they don't realize just how radical Obama. Either Obama is a pure liar, or has the worst ideas I've ever heard in a Presidential candidate. Either way, I don't see it working out well for most people.

    This whole campaign reminds me of 1976. Times had gotten a little tough, and people figured they were ready for a change, any change. Since they only had A and B to pick from, they picked B (Jimmy Carter). Boy was that a mistake. Seems like we're ready to do that again. Gold went from about $100 to $850 in 3 years. I think we're headed for that again, I'm buying gold this week. Already sold all my stocks. Get ready for Carter II: sky high inflation, interest rates, and joblessness.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:25pm

55. I'll never forget Tom Brokaw's 'analysis' the day Carter got booted. Tom intoned:

    "America threw a collective temper tantrum yesterday."

    Yeah, those 21 percent interest rates sure cause a lot of temper tantrums among the children.

    How is Obama going to pay for all those trillions he's promised? I heard the 'rich' had been redefined down to $120k/year last week, and he's not even elected yet. Anybody wanna bet we're not all going to be 'rich' in a few years, if not sooner?

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:31pm

56. Get ready for Carter II: sky high inflation, interest rates, and joblessness.-----Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:25pm |

    What's that other thing that Rush (and his flunkies) used to always say?

    Oh yeah...

    "Liberals just HOPE for bad times for America, so they can get their power back!"

    That's irony that Iron Chef couldn't cook up any better....

    LOL

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 2:33pm

57. Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:31pm

    Okay, time to shut down PONTI for the day...

    Hey, PONT....could you link me to the source of your Tom Brokaw quote?

    (Yep...he won't!)

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 2:35pm

58. Okay, well, looks like Obama may win this one, and we're headed for a repeat of Jimmy Carter, only this time in spades.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 1:35pm

    spades, huh?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 2:43pm

59. Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 2:43pm

    "spades, huh?"

    Fuck off, FROSTY.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:44pm

60. ponti-It made perfect sense and is based on America's actual history.Every fours years people like you pop up and claim that all is over if the other side wins and it's never true.We have survived horrible presidents.The fact that you don't think that it's possible for Obama to end up being good is your very partisan opinion and must be viewed as such,but history says that one cannot predict who may or may not be a good POTUS based upon partisan views or much of anything else.POTUS is a unique position and it's always a crap shoot when you hire one because you just never know what they will actually do or how they will actually perform once they have the job..

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 2:46pm

61. Posted by frosty zoom at 11/03/2008 @ 2:43pm

    Could be nothing...could be something.

    You know PONTI's mentor Rush likes to use the word "figgers" (for "figures") very often. It's an ODD "re-activating" of his Missouri accent that almost never occurs with OTHER words.

    Hmmmm????

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 2:47pm

62. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 2:46pm

    "you just never know what they will actually do or how they will actually perform once they have the job.."

    Unpredictable? I don't think so. If my car's running poorly and I go to a mechanic I've never used before, and he promises to fix it by draining the gasoline, putting sand in the oil, and smashing the carburetor, all while picking his nose, I have a pretty good idea how that's going to work out. Obama has promised to do just about everything in his power to make people poorer and ruin the economy, I don't see how you can possibly claim that's going to work out well.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:50pm

63. Some of you (and you know who you are!) Are really trying my patience. First lvliberty1 the government has never paid for abortions! And of course we're not teaching sex education either! I have suffered through the worst 8 years with President Bush and as much as you don't want Obama as president it can not be half as bad as W. All I want and I hope many Americans do too is some decency brought back to our country. Too much greed, too much complacency and too much laziness. Democracy is not one day of voting. It is staying involved, writing to your elected officials concerning bills coming up for votes and expressing your opinion and working with your fellow Americans. So please don't let democracy stop after tomorrow. Stay involved to help shape this country into the country you know it can be.

    Posted by nhdjlady at 11/03/2008 @ 2:52pm

64. Posted by nhdjlady at 11/03/2008 @ 2:52pm

    You think things have been tough under Bush, lady? You ain't seen nuthin' yet. Wait til you see what raising taxes in a recession, protectionism, and skyrocketing electricity costs do to jobs and the economy. And you and IM are banking on the hope that Obama won't get those things through a Democratic Congress? Snort. Buy gold, babe. We're in for a rough ride.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:00pm

65. ponti-Poor and desperate example with your mechanic and my view is based on history and yours is based on partisanship.If you feel the need to be paranoid and succumb to panic that's okay.History needs you and your kind to continue to exist so history remains predictable.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 3:03pm

66. I think we're headed for that again, I'm buying gold this week. Already sold all my stocks. Get ready for Carter II: sky high inflation, interest rates, and joblessness.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Too bad you missed today's Fox news Barnes' segment on correlation of a (democrat president and democrat congress) versus (repub president and dem congress). Stats show that (dem president with dem congress) stock market performance beats (repub prez and dem congress) 2:1, averaging 14% versus 7% return. Better buy stocks now Ponti and thank your lucky stars that McCain won't be your next President.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:11pm

67. I think I'm finally beginning to understand what Obama supporters mean by 'Hope'. I already figured out 'Change', that's what taxpayers will have left after the tax increases. Now, thanks to IM, I know what 'Hope' means. 'Hope' means 'let's hope he doesn't do what he SAYS he's going to do.' Wow. Hope and Change. Cool.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:13pm

68. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:11pm

    So, your theory is that policies of protectionism, increased taxes and skyrocketing electricity costs are going to help stocks? Would you consider yourself a typical Obama voter in this regard?

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:16pm

69. So, your theory is that policies of protectionism, increased taxes and skyrocketing electricity costs are going to help stocks? Would you consider yourself a typical Obama voter in this regard?

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    No theory Ponti - just the facts. Dems do better for stock market performance.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:18pm

70. Okay, well, looks like Obama may win this one, and we're headed for a repeat of Jimmy Carter Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 1:35pm

    Hmmm, a repeat of Jimmy Carter wouldn't be bad. After all if his energy policies had not been scuttled by Reagan we would be energy independent by now.

    But I think Obama can probably do much better. And your right Ponti, repugs will be in for a wild ride in the next four years.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:18pm

71. By the way Ponti are you going to be hiding all your guns and gold in your bunker? Bwahahahaha...

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:20pm

72. Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:18pm

    "Hmmm, a repeat of Jimmy Carter wouldn't be bad."

    Reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally. So you think 10 percent unemployment, 14 percent mortgage rates, 11 percent inflation, and 21 percent interest rates are GOOD? Now I'm REALLY starting to understand you folks!

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:26pm

73. ponti-No.I did not say that we are to hope that he doesn't do what he says.Let's hope that he can find a way to accomplish as much as possible,but since few people support %100 of any candidates views it will differ as to what people will want him to focus on and which programs and policies they will support and which they won't.Your side just has nothing to offer this time around.You had eight years and screwed up.Let the other side have a shot at it.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 3:33pm

74. Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:16pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Where was the DOW when Bush took office first term? About 10,500? Now we are fighting to stay above 9,000? Look at the history.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:34pm

75. Get ready for Carter II: sky high inflation, interest rates, and joblessness.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 2:25pm

    There well may be sky high inflation and joblessness before Obama can fix what the neo-cons have screwed up for the past 16 years plus. The chickens have already come home to roost thanks to you assholes. It may take Obama and a Democratic controlled Senate and House awhile to unravel all the crap the likes of you and your buddies have wrought.

    Good riddance, I hope we don't all have to suffer much the wreckage of these failed greedy pricks.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:36pm

76. Democrats always have to clean up after their retarded brothers and sisters. You jerks have been crapping in the sandbox for years. And it will take a lot of Democrats with a lot of shovels to clean up this fouled playground.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:44pm

77. Good riddance, I hope we don't all have to suffer much the wreckage of these failed greedy pricks.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 3:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Notice how Ponti is already blaming Obama on the state of economy. Repubs trash our economy and loot the treasury leaving Obama to try to clean up their mess. Their plan is to leave as much wreckage as they can so they can blame the Dems while they are the so called "innocent" minority.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:45pm

78. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:34pm

    "Where was the DOW when Bush took office first term? About 10,500? Now we are fighting to stay above 9,000? Look at the history."

    The stock market was KILLED by the 9/11 attacks. Bush cannot realistically be solely blamed for those attacks since he was only in office for 8 months. Many people blame Clinton for not pursuing terrorism for the previous 8 years.

    It was only Bush's tax cuts that recovered the stock market. Do a little research, most economists agree: tax cuts are good for the economy, tax hikes are bad. It's simply fact.

    Raising taxes and energy costs will cost jobs and make everyone poorer. Simple facts. Why you deny this is simply incomprehensible.

    I guess you need to find out the hard way. Or you could be like chaoszen and similar imbeciles, simply divorce policy from reality and blame everything bad on Republicans, and give credit for everything good to Democrats. Works for some people.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 3:51pm

79. ponti-Get your guns and gold and go hide in your bunker.Hurry up.Posting can cost you precious time.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/03/2008 @ 3:57pm

80. Before we keep going round and round on PONTI's predictive acumen...

    get him to answer my question and cite his source for his "memory" of Tom Brokaw saying we had a "collective temper tantrum" after Carter's defeat.

    He can't. It's not even his memory.

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 3:58pm

81. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 3:34pm

    "Where was the DOW when Bush took office first term? About 10,500? Now we are fighting to stay above 9,000? Look at the history."

    OV, Roosevelt was a Democrat and he presided over the longest depression in history. Economists today blame protectionism and tax hikes for making the Depression 7 years longer than it should have.

    Clinton, a Democrat, pushed NAFTA through Congress. That's not protectionism. The stock market did well during Clinton's term (until the tech bubble that is, but that's another story). Clinton also raised taxes, but he had a Republican Congress that kept spending in line and Clinton had the 'Peace Dividend' cause by the collapse of the Soviet Union to work with.

    Obama promises to bring back protectionism. He's already pissed off the Canadians and Mexicans.

    Your theory of 'Democrats do better' doesn't stand up because different Democrats have different policies and circumstances to work with.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 4:05pm

82. BTW, speaking of PONTI's gift for prophecy...

    "2. Just to be clear, you're predicting a McCain victory....NOT that Republicans will win back control of Congress, right? You still have some grip on reality?"----Maskdelta

    "That's right. The Republicans will not win back Congress, but WILL win the Presidency. That's my prediction. You will recall, I have a pretty track record with predictions. I predicted that impeachment would go nowhere, Plame would go nowhere, the Iraq war would be a non-issue by election time...all things the things that you, Nichols, CRABBIE, and the rest of the moonbats have been wasting time here all year and last year haven't worked out to amount to more than a hill of beans; all have, I believe, worked out about like I expected. Go ahead, run one of those nifty little searches you like to do."-----Posted by pontificus at 08/20/2008 @ 3:44pm

    "Obama's lead is melting....melting....melting.....

    and the media can't help him. The more people learn about Obama, the more it becomes obvious that the guy is not only an empty suit, but a huge fraud. He's the latest in a long line of left-wing losers. He's going to lose in a landslide."----Posted by pontificus at 08/18/2008 @ 10:38pm

    VEEPSTAKES: Feingold On Why He's Off the List posted by John Nichols on 08/18/2008 @ 11:05pm

    "Hey lefties, I don't know about you, but this convention is shaping up to me to be hugely entertaining, and not only that, I'm pleased to say it's following what I have predicted will be the scenario for major landslide material for McCain."----Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 3:11pm

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 4:29pm

83. OV, Roosevelt was a Democrat and he presided over the longest depression in history. Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 4:05pm

    Yeah he sure did he was another Democrat who had to clean up the economic mess created by Republicans in much the same situation we have now. Unequal distribution of wealth in the 20's and and extensive stock market speculation. Imbalance of wealth is what created an unstable economy then and now.

    Im amazed at the way your (brain?) twists historical facts to suit your twisted ideology.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 4:39pm

84. Oh and by the way Ponti a deflationary Depression always lasts much longer than an inflationary one. More than a decade or more.

    Lets hope you repug idiots have only messed things up enough to create an inflationary depression.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 4:43pm

85. Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 4:39pm

    Like SJCHER, PONTI gets his "history" from Limbaugh and Hannity.

    Ergo, has little to do with actual history.

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 4:45pm

86. Bad News,

    Obama's Grandmother Died.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 4:47pm

87. Your theory of 'Democrats do better' doesn't stand up because different Democrats have different policies and circumstances to work with.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 4:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Again Ponti, it is not a theory, just the facts. And the Fox News report is based on historical averages....presumably inclusive of Roosevelt and Clinton.

    Bush had a choice to reverse economic policy of Clinton. Seems like he was pretty on much on board, and even pushed the deregulation agenda more so. I do remember that Clinton finished with a surplus whereas Bush will finish with a deficit. Yes, Clinton's surplus was likely the byproduct of Greenspan's easy money - anything goes economics that works in its infancy and falters as time progresses.

    I am not sure what the "typical" Obama voter is, and my support for Obama is based on the lesser of two evils. There are many things that worry me about Obama, including his affinity for Clinton era advisors who share a good deal of blame for our economic condition. If Obama can just stop part of the bleeding, that will be progress.

    The stock market VIX has stablized recently, and I don't know if that is because of threatened SEC investigation into wide market swings caused by market makers or polling numbers showing an Obama victory likely. Maybe its both. From an investment standpoint, I would think that if investors believe as you do, you would be seeing continued deteoriation of the market. Investors, at this point, are seeming to digest bad economic news daily without too much overreaction, and although its too early to tell, this may be a sign of cautious optimism of an Obama presidency. The guns and gold bunker mentality may be a little premature.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 4:53pm

88. The guns and gold bunker mentality may be a little premature.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 4:53pm

    Especially premature if we are unlucky enough to have a deflationary depression. Gold and Silver will sink like lead. But the guns may not be a bad idea. Always a good investment in times of economic uncertainty...

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:05pm

89. OV, Roosevelt was a Democrat and he presided over the longest depression in history. Economists today blame protectionism and tax hikes for making the Depression 7 years longer than it should have.

    Posted by pontificus at 11/03/2008 @ 4:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    As to the Roaring Twenties, Roosevelt inherited the ravages of excess. That is kind of a cheap shot and you know it.

    'Various policies initiated by the Republican Party had a big impact on the boom. The government was associated with laissez faire economics, which helped create the conditions for the boom.[neutrality disputed] In 1922, the Fordney-McCumber tariff was passed, allowing American businesses to flourish by protecting them from foreign competition.[neutrality disputed] The Secretary to the Treasury from 1921 to 1932, Andrew Mellon, cut surtax from above 50% to 20%. This aided corporate industries, allowing them to dominate their respective markets.[neutrality disputed]

    Source: Wikipedia

    For what its worth.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:12pm

90. Always a good investment in times of economic uncertainty...

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    I am with ya....just to be on the safe side.....in fact, .357 magnum safe side....a little less outrageous than Dirty Harry....hahaha.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:15pm

91. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:15pm

    Good choice. I have a S&W Model 19 Combat .357. Best little revolver I have ever had.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:19pm

92. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:15pm

    I guess that makes us "Gun Totin' Liberals" LOL.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:20pm

93. "BTW, speaking of PONTI's gift for prophecy... " ......

    "Hey lefties, I don't know about you, but this convention is shaping up to me to be hugely entertaining, and not only that, I'm pleased to say it's following what I have predicted will be the scenario for major landslide material for McCain."----Posted by pontificus at 08/26/2008 @ 3:11pm

    Posted by Maskdelta at 11/03/2008 @ 4:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Okay....I am going to "short" gold and gun makers. You have convinced me Mask! Thanks for the hot stock tip of the day!!!!!

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:25pm

94. I guess that makes us "Gun Totin' Liberals" LOL.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    God Bless Amerika!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:26pm

95. Good choice. I have a S&W Model 19 Combat .357. Best little revolver I have ever had.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Ruger GP100 double action - stainless. Great gun for the money - and smooth as silk action with natural point without need for modification. .357's are great because you can play with .38 specials and get serious with .357 mags.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:32pm

96. Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 5:32pm

    Yup true. I have a lever action .357 aswell so I can use the same ammo. Also have a 1858 Remington Conversion that fires .45 Long Colt and a Marlin lever action that fires the same .45LC. Then I round out the collection with a modified Remington 870 Express Magnum 12ga.

    This is starting to sound like a gun forum. Maybe not a good idea on a liberal blog. hehe.

    Im always curious as to how many liberals also own guns. I have been shooting since I was a kid. But my politics are way left. Go figure.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:53pm

97. Im always curious as to how many liberals also own guns. I have been shooting since I was a kid. But my politics are way left. Go figure.

    Posted by chaoszen at 11/03/2008 @ 5:53pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Me too. Rather than "gun totin liberals," I prefer to think of us a gun owners with IQs over 80! The Remington 870 12 ga. magnum is a great pump action for both sport and home defense. Have seen alot of them stacked in the front seat of police cruisers. Very dependable, and wth practice, fast as an auto.

    It is a big tent. Whats right is right.....I feel much safer in a society where wealth is shared my many rather than hoarded by a few unscrupulously. Let history be our guiding light.

    Posted by OneVote at 11/03/2008 @ 7:29pm

98. My grandmother kept a shotgun near the door to scare off the bears. I learned to carry, load and fire a bolt action .22 rifle at summer camp, and would have no problem taking a first-rate firearms course and assuming the challenges of gun ownership. I would, however, hope that the police department could offer its training facilities and instructors to the public that pays for its existence. For concealed carry I want THE SAME training the police get.

    Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/04/2008 @ 08:05am

99. postscript: I DO NOT support any "right" that allows an eight-year-old to shoot themself to death with an Uzi. I don't think Americans need heartache like this. Don't rationalize to me that "he could have been hit by a bus," or some similar inanity

    Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/04/2008 @ 08:18am

100. postscript: I DO NOT support any "right" that allows an eight-year-old to shoot themself to death with an Uzi. I don't think Americans need heartache like this. Don't rationalize to me that "he could have been hit by a bus," or some similar inanity

     Posted by A_Pax_On_Your_Houses at 11/04/2008 @ 08:18am | ignore this person | warn this person

     I think it is mandatory in most places to take a firearms course and background check before getting a concealed weapons permit. This makes sense. I think you will find that the majority of gun owners do not mind rational regulation, and that extremists who want no regulation are just that.

     Posted by OneVote at 11/04/2008 @ 10:04am