Boo! Another Halloween Ad from John McCain

posted by Leslie Savan on 10/25/2008 @ 12:40am

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Predictably enough, John McCain made an ad based on Joe Biden's stupid, stupid comment that, mark his words, the world will test Barack Obama with a "generated crisis" within six months of taking office. The spot takes us on an all-fear, all-boogeymen trip around the world, with Hugo Chavez, Ahmadinejad, and ski-masked jihadis riding shotgun.

I would've been more scared if that second image didn't look so much like a fetal sonogram and make me think this was a terrorist-cum-antiabortion ad, a straddle too far even for the McCain campaign. On further viewing, however, I could make out that those were battleships. And that the fist-shaking mob toward the end there probably formed overseas, and not at a Palin rally.

Of course, a lot of people are already inoculated against McCain ads because they figure he'll say or do anything. And the ad omitted the part where Biden said that Obama's testers will discover "this guy's got steel in his spine." Nevertheless, some mainstream pundits have suggested that the spot, titled "Ladies and Gentlemen," may be this year's "Daisy," the 1964 ad widely cited as the Ghenghis Khan of attack ads. LBJ didn't even have to mention Barry Goldwater's name to nuke his presidential hopes with this one:

After just one airing, "Daisy" was plucked off TV as a paid commercial for being too inflammatory, but it had a good run on "free media" (long before that term for televised news became a household phrase). It devastated Goldwater's campaign because the Arizona senator was already seen as ideologically hotheaded enough to start a nuclear war. "Ladies and Gentleman" can't be a "Daisy" because its target is the prince of cool. This kind of attack only works on senior senators from Arizona.

The impact of McCain's ad is further blunted by coming out on the day, October 24, that financial markets were (once again) crashing around the world. No doubt Middle Eastern terrorists would like to start taking names and giving tests over here, but with Americans losing their 401-Ks, their homes, and their jobs, most of us think the testing has already begun without them. Somehow we're supposed to be more afraid of Hugo Chavez, who's giving heating oil to old ladies in Massachusetts, than of the former chief of Goldman Sachs, who's running the Treasury Department and deciding to let his old rival, Lehmann Brothers, fail. That's what started the collapse of the worldwide financial markets.

And as Halloweeny as the McCain spot is, there is still something, well, cotton-mouthed about it. Compare it to, say, this ad, run by Rudy Giuliani during the primaries, which seems to have a lot more teeth than gums:

Needless to say, this spot didn't save Rudy's skin last January, when he was spending more money for fewer votes than just about any politician ever. So it's hard to see what trying it again (even using the same image of Ahmadinejad at the U.N.) but with the volume turned down is going to do for John McCain.

As if it were passing through a mirror, the GOP seems to be reprising all the old tactics that made them successful on the way up as they spiral out of control on the way down, only to little effect. As Josh Marshall writes at TPM, "the party seems to be cycling back through its history of character assassination, McCarthyism and wedge politics flimflam, only now with a desperate and parodic impotence taking the place of punishing rhetorical violence."

It's a little like the liquid-metal cyborg played by Robert Patrick in Terminator 2. When he's finally pushed into the vat of hot steel at the end, the T-1000 reprises all the characters he's killed and imitated--the cop, the housewife, the security guard at the hospital--each appearing briefly as he whips around in the molten steel, trying to escape (which you can see here at about the 8:00 mark):

In the next scene the young John Connor asks the Terminator, "Is it dead?" and Arnold replies, "Terminated." Schwarzenegger wasn't quite so direct when asked a few days ago whether fellow GOP governor Sarah Palin was qualified to be president. "I think," he said delicately, "that she will get to be qualified."

God knows, these days it's hard for any Republican to say, "Come with me if you want to live."

Comments (146)

Doesn't matter which becomes POTUS because either will be tested just as Clinton was tested in his first year with the WTC bombing and Bush was tested by 9/11.Of course,in this unstable world being tested comes with the job.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 12:45am
They've both been tested already, and more so than most candidates, with the long campaigns and teh economic meltdown. One guy has been erratic, angry, illogical, and at times downright brain dead. He's lurched from one piss poor idea to the next, his campaign is a hallmark of disorganization. The other guy, as Biden said, has steel in his spine, has been vetted for two solid years under some pretty harsh conditions, has shown a calmness born of a great mind, a great heart, and an apparently great soul. And, should that guy be elected, when that crisis (and all of the other ones to follow) hits, the two most reassuring words in the English language will be "President Obama".

Posted by jmusolino at 10/25/2008 @ 01:26am
Adding another layer of murk to Ohio's already cloudy election picture, Hamilton County Prosecutor Joe Deters wants more than 600 votes cast between Sept. 30 and Oct. 6 to be quarantined and not counted until officials investigate allegations of voter fraud.

http://news.cincinnati.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?

AID=/AB/20081021/NEWS0106/810210308/

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/25/2008 @ 02:41am
everybody should register as a rebublican to be on the safe side...

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/25/2008 @ 02:43am
oh. my. lord:

crabwalker, "enjoy" this:

http://focusfamaction.edgeboss.net/download

/focusfamaction/pdfs/10-22-08_2012letter.pdf

mr. dobson's very, very gay 2012.

After that decision, many other policies changed, and several previous Supreme Court cases were reversed rather quickly -- raising the question, "Is America still the land of the free?"

(1) Boy Scouts: "The land of the free"? The Boy Scouts no longer exist as an organization. They chose to disband rather than be forced to obey the Supreme Court decision that they would have to hire homosexual scoutmasters and allow them to sleep in tents with young boys.

It had become increasingly difficult for the Boy Scouts to find meeting places anyway, because in 2009 Congress passed and President Obama signed an expansion of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, which extended federal civil rights protections to people engaging in homosexual behavior. So the Boy Scouts had already been kicked out of all public facilities.

¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ very, very gay.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/25/2008 @ 03:00am
geez, what an absolute whack job of a "letter" Frosty

Posted by leftofcenter at 10/25/2008 @ 07:48am
I think this is much scarier: http://cfc.wjla.com/printstory.cfm?id=564232

Posted by leftofcenter at 10/25/2008 @ 08:01am
Frosty, who the hell has that kind of time?

oh, wait....

REDRIVER was gone for a while...

So much anti-Christian hate in one letter!

"When did all this start? Christians share a lot of the blame."

That's right. When people exercise their right to vote, bad things happen. Right RIO?

"christians did not take the time to find out who Barak Obam was when they voted for him"

Yeah, they found out he was a Christian. Should that have given them pause?

Nahh, he is really a Mooselum, hence Palins fear.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 09:10am
I note that, like many of his/her cohorts in the Fear Obama crowd, they lack the courage to sign their real name.

what was that thingy they follow, that list of suggestions on how to please the Lord... there are 10 of them.... False Witness...

Why do they want everyone else to do what God says, but they can't even get the easy ones right?

Or is it False WiTless?

BTW, how is the pregnant teen daughter of the Christo centric VP candidate that taught her about Values? Still off limits while we talk about abstinence?

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 09:15am
It is worst than you think Left. The Permian-Triassic Extinction is the greatest mass die off in the history of the planet. Regardless of the mechanics of how it starts the domino begins with global warming. This leads to a release of stored methane. This leads to a cascade of falling dominoes. Long story short 96% of all living things on the planet die. It takes millions of years for life to make a come back.

Posted by bascaville at 10/25/2008 @ 09:42am
As Josh Marshall writes at TPM, "the party seems to be cycling back through its history of character assassination, McCarthyism and wedge politics flimflam, only now with a desperate and parodic impotence taking the place of punishing rhetorical violence."

Go with your best, I always say. I guess their best just isn't good enough anymore. Halleleujah! Vote early!

Posted by boing007 at 10/25/2008 @ 09:59am
What is it with all the Republican trolls on this web sight? Are they trying to change our minds or do they want to come in out of the darkness into the light of liberalism? I suspect it's the later. Because they aren't going to change anyone's mind. A lot of us are recovering 'slime dwellers' who have grown tired of all the hate on the 'dark side'! It isn't going to be easy to woo us back to the hell of conservatism.

Posted by ganddw42 at 10/25/2008 @ 10:31am
It's like a running joke now to see how far the McCain ads will go. Let's see if only hours before the election he release an ad asking "Do you really want this nigger to become President?" I'm sure that will help him win. Hell his supporters are becoming more and more demonstrably fanatic as he goes.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/25/2008 @ 10:46am
Posted by bascaville at 10/25/2008 @ 09:42am

Sadly basca, as a Prof of Earth & Env Sci I know exactly how bad it is.....now if the thermocline descends as well and hits the methane clathrates its officially game-over. Some think that has happened previously as well. The slowing of the Atlantic vertical conveyor could be an indicator.

Posted by leftofcenter at 10/25/2008 @ 11:17am
Republicans have no shame. Expect them to scrape the bottom of the barrel in the coming days in their campaign ads.

And with Halloween positioned between now and the election, there's no shortage of scary material available.

I'd like to see the Obama people depict McCain as Mr. Potato Head, with a variety of ever changing parts (read policy positions).

Posted by jackwells at 10/25/2008 @ 11:38am
Darin, just for you down in NC....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zS0vTV-esNc

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/25/2008 @ 11:58am
Unless Obama turns into a white man or at least shoots some endangered species from a plane, I doubt the American people will vote for him, recent polls notwithstanding.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 12:28pm
Posted by jackwells at 10/25/2008 @ 11:38am 

In fairness, let's not pretend Obama's not stooping pretty low as well. Anyone heard about the Spanish-language ad?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ry9LnAazwMg

And here's the translation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=98gA-rbMBLw

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 12:41pm
thrawn

Glen Beck and Rush Limbaugh reporting on Obama's dirty tactics?

priceless.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 12:47pm
Oh no, it's ironic to be sure; I'm not saying Glenn Beck and Limbaugh are above any of that either. My point was simply to illustrate that Obama isn't above it, and the video I found with the translation happened to be part of a Beck commentary.

Point is: Obama isn't above dirty campaigning, so let's stop pretending all the sliminess comes from McCain's ads.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 1:04pm
Wasn't the white house looking for missing china when 9/11 happened? I also think that they were obsessing about travel gate. MSMNC has archive tape with ol' Joe Lieberman saying the identical thing about McCain being tested by world forces. why does Biden have to back down from this? Is this some kind of whack a mole game? speaking of moles, wouldn't it be nice to be able to tell Lieberman to go fly a kite after the election?

Posted by lachatte at 10/25/2008 @ 1:13pm
Thrawn,

Since McCain has completely changed his position on immigration to please his right wing supporters I guess Obama could pretty much say anything and be correct depending on which of McCain's multiple personalities he is addressing.

But seriously, are you comparing this admittedly tough ad with the riot and violence inciting rhetoric McCain and Miz Cutes are spewing? It may piss off a few Latinos who agree with Obama, but it isn't exactly "Vote Obama or all your children will die at the hands of John McCain's terrorist friends" which is what McCain/Palin (oh why pretend-Palin/McCain) are saying over and over and over and over and over and over.....

Posted by Pogge at 10/25/2008 @ 1:29pm
Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person

big deal, thrawn. the repugnants deserve a lot worse, and i find nothing wrong with gagging them on a LITTLE of their own medicine.

and sure, dems ain't perfect but don't fall into the trap of "they're both just as bad, so what". i think the last 8 years have popped that baloon pretty hard...

the biggest difference between the two is that dems CAN run some of the nastiest attack ads imaginable...without having to lie AT ALL!!!

LOL

but if some truth gets stretched...oh well, not good on a perfect world, i suppose, and as i stated above, NOT NEEDED...but this sure ain't a perfect world, is it?

jam that blade in and TWIST!!!

Posted by dexter666 at 10/25/2008 @ 1:44pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 10:24am |

See if you can dispute the claims made in the " comic book", Darin. Perhaps you could expalin the sudden swelling of provisional ballots, that were then tossed in the trash. Or why so many republicans were fined or spent time in jail for voting violations.

Or should we put your claims in with IRaqi wmsd's and the cons version of Plames status. That would be in the category of you repeating something that has nothing to do with reality.

----

Before the 2000 election, Florida officials purged 57,700 registered voters on the grounds that they were convicted felons (and therefore ineligible to vote under Florida law).[10] Many of those whose names were purged were "false positives" (not actually felons).

A post-election lawsuit brought by the NAACP, the People for the American Way Foundation, and other organizations resulted in a settlement in 2002 in which the state agreed to restore eligible voters to the rolls and take other steps to improve election procedures. ---

Dirty tricks occurred across the state, including phony letters from Boards of Elections telling people that their registration through some Democratic activist groups were invalid and that Kerry voters were to report on Wednesday because of massive voter turnout. Phone calls to voters giving them erroneous polling information were also common.

John Pappageorge, a Republican state legislator in Michigan said in the summer of 2004, "If we do not suppress the Detroit vote, we're going to have a tough time in this election."

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 2:10pm
"A review of the available data reveals that in Ohio alone, at least 357,000 voters, the overwhelming majority of them Democratic, were prevented from casting ballots or did not have their votes counted in 2004 -- more than enough to shift the results of an election decided by 118,601 votes. ... In what may be the single most astounding fact from the election, one in every four Ohio citizens who registered to vote in 2004 showed up at the polls only to discover that they were not listed on the rolls, thanks to GOP efforts to stem the unprecedented flood of Democrats eager to cast ballots. And that doesn't even take into account the troubling evidence of outright fraud, which indicates that upwards of 80,000 votes for Kerry were counted instead for Bush. That alone is a swing of more than 160,000 votes -- enough to have put John Kerry in the White House."- Robert Kennedy

---

According to Ohio recount rules, 3% of a county's votes are tallied by hand, and typically one or more whole precincts are selected and combined to get the 3% sample. The 3% must be randomly selected, and all hand counts are to be performed in public (with observers). After the hand count, the sample is fed into the tabulator. If there is no discrepancy, the remaining ballots can be counted by the machine. Otherwise, a hand recount must be done for the whole county. The Cobb campaign claimed that the precincts were not randomly selected and the ballots were pre-sorted. They suggested that this indicates that precincts were selected that would match the machine count, in order to prevent a county-wide hand count, i.e. that it was "staged".

**** Two poll workers were convicted of preselecting ballots for the recounts ****-^ Election Staff Convicted in Recount Rig. Washington Post. January 24, 2007

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 2:12pm
I don't think I could design a more comical lack of self awareness regarding the transparency of The Nation's hypocrisy. Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 10:24am

Could you draw up your ignorance for us?

----

A former Republican National Committee official was sentenced Wednesday to 10 months in prison for his role in the jamming of New Hampshire Democrats' telephones on election day 2002.

James Tobin, the third person sent to prison in the case, was found guilty in December of harassment by telephone. Prosecutors had sought a two-year sentence.-LATimes

-----

Two of three high-ranking Cleveland election officials were convicted today of misconduct for rigging the 2004 presidential recount to avoid a more thorough review of the balloting in Cayahoga County, the state's most populous and a Democratic stronghold.

Jacqueline Maiden, the Cuyahoga County Elections Board's coordinator and its third-highest ranking employee, and ballot manager Kathleen Dreamer each were found guilty of a felony count of negligent misconduct of an elections employee. They also were convicted of one misdemeanor count each of failure of elections employees to perform their duty. he felony conviction carries a possible sentence of six to 18 months.

-----

Add in the republican Sec of State saying that he would deliver Ohio no matter what, that several voting machines were "re-calibrated" AFTER the election, and another election official convicted after taking a campaign check on the steps of the county courthouse/clerks office...

and wa-la... serious election issues.

But, I know you view rules and laws with disdain, Darin, so I expect you will continue to believe in your fantasies.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 2:25pm
And Darin...

It looks like Obama is going to carry this one...

BOO!

After 8 years of Bush's Tricks, it may be nice to have a treat in the WH.

Be afraid Darin, be very afraid. It is what fuels you.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 2:30pm
I wish I could share fellow leftists' confidence. I just don't see an Obama win in the cards. The country that TWICE elected the demented Nazi Bush over a pair of centrist white guys is now going to elect a left-of-center black?

All of these right wing psychopaths who have run this country for 50 years just suddenly had an epiphany? They all moved to Hong Kong?

The effectiveness of democracy rests on two fundamental premises: 1) smart people outnumber stupid people and 2) good people outnumber wicked people.

At least in America, both of these premises are transparently wrong.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 3:17pm
Since McCain has completely changed his position on immigration to please his right wing supporters I guess Obama could pretty much say anything and be correct depending on which of McCain's multiple personalities he is addressing.

But seriously, are you comparing this admittedly tough ad with the riot and violence inciting rhetoric McCain and Miz Cutes are spewing? It may piss off a few Latinos who agree with Obama, but it isn't exactly "Vote Obama or all your children will die at the hands of John McCain's terrorist friends" which is what McCain/Palin (oh why pretend-Palin/McCain) are saying over and over and over and over and over and over.....

Posted by Pogge at 10/25/2008 @ 1:29p 

1) Could you perhaps warrant this assertion? I don't remember McCain ever coming even remotely close to anything that extreme anti-immigration advocates have said, so yes, Obama's ad IS a gigantic misrepresentation.

2) You're right, I think, that Palin specifically (and hopefully not with McCain's tacit blessing) has been encouraging dangerous sentiments. However, the "elect this other guy and you're in more danger national-security-wise" is nothing more than saying "My opponent's understanding of national security is dangerous"...which is a legitimate argument.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 3:38pm
RIO, you said it yourself, The Messiah cometh. This is a title given Obama by the fundies, not his supporters.

You should rejoice!

2000 years of hard work, splinter groups, copying by illiterates, translations, mistranslations, millions killed in His name, along with their record of community organizing, are about to come to an end.

Allejuhia!

Posted by crabwalk at 10/25/2008 @ 3:40pm
big deal, thrawn. the repugnants deserve a lot worse, and i find nothing wrong with gagging them on a LITTLE of their own medicine.

the biggest difference between the two is that dems CAN run some of the nastiest attack ads imaginable...without having to lie AT ALL!!!

LOL

but if some truth gets stretched...oh well, not good on a perfect world, i suppose, and as i stated above, NOT NEEDED...but this sure ain't a perfect world, is it?

Posted by dexter666 at 10/25/2008 @ 1:44pm 

2 responses:

1) You can't attack the other guy for doing something and then proceed to do it as well without being morally inconsistent. You certainly can't claim that Democrats have a moral high-ground when they indulge in the same kind of slime that Republicans do, especially when an ad (as this one does) is just a hair short (if at all) of claiming McCain is a racist.

2) This is just untrue. There are some bad things Obama can say that are also correct; that I'll grant (remember also, I voted for him). However, ads like these ARE just lying to turn off an important constituency. Even if the Limbaugh quote isn't deception in the way Beck claims it is (ripping a quote out of the context of a comedy routine whose actual conclusion was just the opposite), it's CERTAINLY a deception insofar as it purports to represent anything remotely close to McCain's position.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 3:43pm
Also, the more I see this ad, the more it's making a legitimate argument. Biden says that international leaders, particularly those hostile to us, will likely test Obama to asess his mettle, due to his very limited national security experience. He's also saying that this is less likely with McCain because of Mccain's greater foreign policy experience. Regardless of whether you're convinced by this argument, it's a perfectly valid argument to make. Making voters concerned about something that you think (accurately or not) that they should be concerned about isn't off-limits, any more than some of Obama's ads talking about McCain and health-care.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 4:57pm
Despite the fact that Obama and his team have run a masterful campaign, I think they badly dropped the ball on this one. Biden's gaffe itself was relatively harmless, but it should have dealt with in clear, unmistakable terms immediately afterward--it could have even been a "teaching moment". Biden could have come right back and said, "Can you imagine taking my high praise for this man's steadiness of character and twisting it into the opposite! Outrageous! Do they really expect you to believe I was criticizing this great president-to-be??" etc etc Instead, I fear O and company were "running the clock" and hoping it would go away--never, ever a good strategy. Certainly not with ten or more days left. The statement about rhetorical flourishes was as weak as the one about "above my pay grade." I would even now come out and say, "Biden's point was that the election itself will be wonderful, but we know that difficult challenges will follow. This strong and steady man will meet and exceed all our expectations, even in the worst of times. " And then remind people of the fact that McCain has a total lack of steadiness of character, is known as a hot head, and that he has in fact never been tested at all as anything like a member of an administration--let alone a president! I would follow up with an ad that speaks to O's steely nerve--start with the issue of the economy and his nerve, then the commander in chief bit--with newspaper quotes and endorsements. DO NOT run the clock--do not shake and quake when this issue comes up-- McCain has little left and will use this to the hilt. Not cleverly dealt with, this time. SOMEONE please pass this on to the campaign if you can!

Posted by sarad at 10/25/2008 @ 4:59pm
Thrawn

McCain is not a racist? That's the most absurd claim I've ever heard in my life! The man continues to refer to the people he rained napalm on as "gooks."

He's a blood-spattered psychotic, a cheerleader for the Indochina holocaust and for Bush's Iraq bloodbath which has claimed 1.2 million lives.

He belongs in a cage.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 5:12pm
lvliberty

..a pity your inspiring sermon on personal responsibility has been lost on the far left Bush administration and their socialist running dogs on Wall Street, all of whom have done a damn good job of foisting off their spectacular failures on every conceivable front.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 5:18pm
lvliberty-you may wish to read your posts and other right wing posts on here and on right wing blogs before you point the hate finger at others.As always,your hypocrisy is too easy to expose,but it is nice of you to always tell others what they think and feel.I've never seen you take personal responsibility and you always excuse those on your side rather than make them live up to your personal responsibility standards..Most that I've known on the left are quite responsible,but you only know your own and judge based on ignorance.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 5:20pm
Not a question of which side has more hate, but rather, the nature of that hate.

Liberals hate injustice, racism, murder, depravity, corruption of high office, thieving, wars of aggression, those who torture, those who befoul the environment for short term gain and those who bleed the country dry to stuff more money in their pants.

Conservatives hate non-whites, peace, tolerance, diplomacy over war, honesty, thought, atheism, evolution, science in general, facts, humane treatment of others, Europe and anyone who isn't a religious psychotic.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 5:27pm
Fed involvement in education??!?

HORRORS!!!

God forbid our kids should EVER catch up to the high standards of nationalized education provided to European children!

How are we gonna keep Nazi filth from the toilet like Bush in power if we start actually educating our children and making them globally competitive?

Another crazy, leftist idea, for sure!

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 5:35pm
lvliberty-My wife is a liberal and I take attacks on liberals to be an attack against her and will fight against such attacks, as a good spouse does.You excuse your side all the time and even change what they say in order to do that like you did with Hagee,Falwell,Palin,etc.You never take responsibility for the hate,hypocrisy,etc that you spew on here.By your own admission you don't even know any liberals or much of anyone else except for your own people who agree with you yet you judge based on ignorance.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 5:37pm
lvliberty-I write modern GOP and modern conservatives when I attack conservatives,but have complimented my parents brand of conservatism on several occasions and stated that I voted for Reagan, the first time, and Dole.It's not my fault that you modern conservatives have let me down and are trying to destroy my country,but I still have some conservative friends,but they are my kind of country people..

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 5:44pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 5:21pm

Yeah, one post from you is more than enough..

Posted by chaoszen at 10/25/2008 @ 5:59pm
Blacks "are inferior to the whites in the endowments of both of body and mind." --Andrew Jackson

Jackson, of course, was even less sympathetic to the basic humanity of Native Americans---he was an enthusiastic genocidaire.

McCain is indeed cut from the same cloth...can't argue with that.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 6:07pm
GIVE THE GIFT OF McCAIN!! Share the John. Send "The McCain Trilogy" to someone you love. Or hate…

"JOHN McCAIN: LOVE MACHINE" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p8ceYtl2j38

"FINANACIAL CRISIS: THE MUSICAL" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=henMX35nkJg

"HOT HEADED" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_Dhxu-6l98

Send now and get this FREE Bonus link!!! Sarah Palin, starring in "WHO ARE YOU? (VP MIX) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdRrqkgTGNk

Posted by thincaboutit at 10/25/2008 @ 6:28pm
redRiver-Andrew Jackson did have some good qualities,but McCain has none of those.Unfortunately,Jackson's good qualities were canceled out by his racist views and temper.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 7:13pm
The left wants to sugarcoat life and put in a fairness that exceeds reality. That is why leftist thought is not adult thought. It is what children hopefully grow out of as they mature into adulthood.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 5:20pm

BY GOLLY, YOUR'RE RIGHT!

THANKS, LARRY!

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/25/2008 @ 7:20pm
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 5:20pm

Rev. Larry Robinson (aka LVLIBERTY1)...

is the biggest hypocrite on this board.

And almost every attack he made in that post...applies to him ten-fold.

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/25/2008 @ 7:53pm
Frankly, I think a testing of a more serious nature has already occurred with John McCain, and he didn't pass muster. I have the utmost respect for Mr. McCain and all that he has sacrificed for his country. What I can't understand now, in the midst of his shouts of "Country First", is why he seems to be putting his own political aspirations for the Oval Office ahead of his "Country First." The vote was in on Sarah Palin over a week ago, as far as many people are concerned. I don't always go in for these media quips to sum up a candidate for VP, but SNL's "Caribou Barbie" seems to have hit the nail on Governor Palin's head. It's just a simple fact of life - the reason we have a VP - tragedies and illness and the like have frequently brought the VP into play as emergency replacement for the highest office in the land. This being the first "Presidential" decision every candidate for President makes, I just can't help but think that McCain should have put a little more thought into his selection for VP. In a Presidential race, it is not "cherry picking" to look at every single thing a person does. That's our job as voters to watch these people and look for signs of even-handedness, a deep knowledge of the issues that face our country and the courage and fortitude to...yeah...put the Country First. But small things add up. Three....count 'em, three wrong answers to "what is the job of the VP." Bashing fruit fly studies, which has become a central theme in finding hope for progressing research on Autism? If you aren't even up on the issues that you care passionately about, how can we trust you to be up on other important issues. Bottom line, McCain has not put his Country First in the most important first decision he had to make. The test is over. McCain failed.

Posted by yosemitesam at 10/25/2008 @ 8:19pm
Wow...it's really astonishing the depth of animosity that's come up. Some of it is justified, because certain people on both sides have just been asserting lies (though I think that in THIS case, many of the lies coming from the left are far more egregious).

First, the racism thing, because I think this was the most obnoxious part. The claim that conservatism=racism is a giant lie, as was the rest of rykart's claim that conservatives basically hate humanity. That, in fact, is the EXACT kind of demonization that Katrina (correctly) laments coming from some elements on the right.

More specifically, is McCain a racist? Two things. First of all, no one's refuted the point that Obama's insinuation in the ad was blatantly dishonest, and badly misrepresents McCain's immigration position. Second of all, with regard to the comment McCain made on the bus, I think it's taken out of its context. Was it pretty offensive? Yes, beyond any doubt. Does it make him racist, though? He claimed (and I think fairly) that he referred only to his captors, indicating that his anger is rooted not in a specific racial classification but in the specific people who tortured him. Granted, I still am saddened by his inability to forgive and disappointed with his use of a very irresponsible term that can certainly CONVEY racism to many people. In the end, though, I don't believe McCain is a racist.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 8:33pm
Its commentary on the vapidity of this site that the focus of most blog entries here since the conventions have been on trivialia: What nasty thing McCain said about Obama or what ad McCain released that contained lies about Obama. In some other dimension there's a mirror image of this emptiness and its equally trivial. But such is the meaning of a contest between two people who can offer only a facade of differences, and those contrived either to appeal to their owners or to the shmendriks who actually imagine them to be real. Who's focused on the fact that both Obama and McCain would commit the United States to a war with Russia - almost certainly a nuclear war - as a consequence of their support of NATO membership for Georgia? Anybody? No, I don't think so. Rarely here might Obama supporting laughing hyenas like the Palin obsessed Maskedcaca rise above "te-he" or I'm nobody above his nobodiness, that's certain. So what's to characterize The Nation's blogs post election, the kind of warmongering one can still find over at National Review? Ready to cheer on Obama's Afghan/Pakistani adventurism? Do you really think the White House Press Secretary's tone will be any different than its been the last few years when he or she is forced to defend the bombing of innocent civilians? Oh, but I forgot, we're awash in change.

Progressives vote Nader.

Posted by john lowell at 10/25/2008 @ 8:54pm
The comment is the LEAST of it, Thrawn. He's utterly unrepentant about his participation in one of the most horrific episodes of racial dehumanization, ethnic cleansing and extermination in recent history. His statements are of a piece with his fellow Vietnam heros---filth like Wm Westmoreland, who happily declared "the orientals don't place the same high price on life that we Americans do. It doesn't mean much to them."

Not to admit that the Vietnam war was viciously racist is viciously racist, as are our current efforts against "the towel heads" "sand niggers" and other subhumans that McCain and fellow military scum are cheerfully torturing and massacring in Iraq, to great fanfare.

There is no credible defense of these monsters. A better case can be made for Josef Mengele.

"Vietnam war hero."??? What decent society could even conceive of such a phrase? Why not "a Rwandan genocide hero" ? It's certainly not any MORE grotesque!

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:01pm
Hi John

A suggestion: Vote for ME!

I have as much chance of winning this election as Nader and I'm WELL to the left of him on all major issues.

Nader wants to impeach Bush/Cheney.

I recommend executing them on pay-per-view TV, with the proceeds going to pay war reparations.

Nader wants to reduce military spending.

I will do away with the entire defense budget and convert the Pentagon into a butterfly museum.

If, on the other hand, you want to actually affect things..vote Obama. He's as left as this country will ever get.

Even Chomsky urges a vote for Obama. As he very sensibly says: "it's not bad to vote for a lesser evil. It's GOOD to vote for a lesser evil."

What else is there to add?

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:10pm
Betrayal:

With this ad, and with his fear engendering robocalls, Senator McCain betrays both his supporters and his opponents.

Senator McCain is shouting "fire" at the top of his lungs in crowded theater. How will those who are frightened by his shouting react to the election of President Obama? How can they fail to live with dread?

And how will those who are unmoved by Senator McCain's charges react to the election of President McCain? How can they fail to view him as having given up all of his integrity and honor?

George W. Bush did a far better job of convincing us that he would be an acceptable president with his committment to "compassionate conservatism." Senator McCain has long since given up on his claims of "reaching across the aisle" or "unifying the nation."

This ad and the William Ayers robocall are clear representatives of unacceptable political messages. They are over the line, not because they are lies, but because the undermine the presidency of both candidates.

And they are financed with public money since Senator McCain accepted public financing. Our money need not be used in this way. The law should reflect that. If a candidate wishes to excercise his/her free speech rights in this way, they should do so on their own dime. And since the RNC is controlled by the Presidential candidate of the party, the candidate should be fined if the RNC places ads of this nature for him/her.

Finally, why is there a Federal "do not call" list which only applies to "for profit" callers? We have been getting robocalls several times each day because we live in Pennsylvania. We don't pick up, but the messages are run onto our answering machine. The "do not call" list should apply to non-profits as well.

Don Pittsburgh, PA

Posted by DonKrieger at 10/25/2008 @ 9:12pm
Yet another tactic from the McCain camp (that is, if they haven't already all gone home) that clearly isn't working...

It makes on wonder how many times a person can beat their head against a wall, and complain about how much it hurts before they stop beating their head against a wall.

Thank you GOP base for ruining one of the few people in your stable of politicians that I didn't think should be put in jail.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/25/2008 @ 9:16pm
That's great, lv

I must also assume, in your boundless, frontier-sy, self-reliance, you forgo all outside medical treatment. Certainly you'd be the last to go whining to the cardiologist, hoping he'll fix your valve prolapse. That would be cowardly and immature!

And of course, you educate your children without expecting society to do that in their leftist schools.

I'm inspired by your take-charge approach--building your own roads and the vehicles to drive on them, weaving your own clothing, fashioning your own shoes and existing independently as a society of one.

We need more like you.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:27pm
He's utterly unrepentant about his participation in one of the most horrific episodes of racial dehumanization, ethnic cleansing and extermination in recent history. His statements are of a piece with his fellow Vietnam heros---filth like Wm Westmoreland, who happily declared "the orientals don't place the same high price on life that we Americans do. It doesn't mean much to them."

Not to admit that the Vietnam war was viciously racist is viciously racist, as are our current efforts against "the towel heads" "sand niggers" and other subhumans that McCain and fellow military scum are cheerfully torturing and massacring in Iraq, to great fanfare.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:01pm 

Forgive me, but this is patent nonsense. One, the Vietnam war was never conceived as anything remotely approaching genocide; the goal was to prevent Soviet domination of the region. Though I think we clearly went too far in many ways, the war doesn't remotely deserve the classification you're giving it. Did some people say racist things about it? Yes, I have no doubt. That isn't good enough, certainly not enough to label Vietnam "genocide." And the further thought that anyone who doesn't think Vietnam was racist is racist is absurd.

As for the other part...it's even more insane. Prove to me, clearly, that our efforts in Iraq and other places, whether you agree with them or not, are racist. I've seen no reason whatsoever to believe it, and you're going to have to do a lot more work than you have thus far to warrant your bald assertion.

Loud declarations that our policies are "racist" and "genocidal," asserted loudly with no basis behind them, only work to trivialize the meaning of those words. If you're going to use those terms, use them when they mean something.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 9:28pm
Are there ANY McCain ads that dont have B.O. in them ..?? Are there..?? I havent seen much "real" tv in the past 8 months, but the ads I saw were very Mcnasty ..?? Granted The DNC will have a few stretching the truth, But downright LIES like the ones I saw on Youtube claiming Obama wanted to teach sex ed to 3 yr olds... Christ... Good luck in the retirement home John... you honkey sum'na bitch.

Posted by Vvf1969 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:33pm
Posted by Thrawn at 10/25/2008 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person

how is that ad stooping low? has mccain repudiated limbaugh?

they are all a part of the same nasty old machine, as far as i'm concerned.

good ad, BARACK!

shove that blade in and twist, baby!!!

Posted by dexter666 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:35pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:23pm

Just go to

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/cc65ed650d

for the full thing!

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/25/2008 @ 9:36pm
Thrawn

To claim our policies in Indochina were not racist and exterminationist is to advertise a near-total ignorance of the history of that conflict.

I urge you to do some reading about the destruction of Vietnam, Cambodia and Laos by American forces. No secret was made of efforts to kill not only all the people but every living thing the American Nazis came across--birds, cattle, children, crops, trees...everything. Hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of GIs testified that the Vietnamese were not human beings in their eyes. Precisely the same is happening today in Iraq and the disgustingly racist language attending the war reflects that.

Similarly, to claim the entire war on terror agenda, with it's repulsive demonization of arabs and islam is not racist is just an exercise in defiant stupidity. Nobody familiar with Abu Ghraib, Guantanamo, the daily disparaging of arab and moslem peoples particularly by our nazi military and their sympathizers is going to take you seriously.

If this isn't racism of the most murderous sort--then let's just abolish the word from our vocabulary.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:46pm
Posted by bascaville at 10/25/2008 @ 09:42am

Sadly basca, as a Prof of Earth & Env Sci I know exactly how bad it is.....now if the thermocline descends as well and hits the methane clathrates its officially game-over. Some think that has happened previously as well. The slowing of the Atlantic vertical conveyor could be an indicator.

Posted by leftofcenter at 10/25/2008 @ 11:17am

You guys scare the crap out of me with this. Here's a question I've always wondered about. What if, and of course this is a big if, we could place a very, very large mirror in outer space to deflect some of the sun rays penetrating the earth's atomsphere to slow the global warming situation down? Has anyone brought this up in your field?

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:59pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:58pm

That and what Andy said is true.

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/25/2008 @ 10:02pm
Thanks, lv!!

It always makes me feel grounded when I'm labelled a "nutjob" by a religious goofball who PRAYS to magic Jesus spirits to solve his daily problems.

Have no fears about the economic downturn, Lv...if God won't save you, you'll always have your comedic talents to fall back on.

As to America's Nazi behavior in Indochina, it's a matter of public record, reported in thousands of articles and books, including massive eye-witness testimony of the perpetrators of these barbarities. Photos too, of course. (My Lai was a fairly routine example. )

Not that you should allow reality to interfere with your psychedelic Jesus world.

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 10:02pm
What else is there to add?

Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:10pm

Not much. Well said.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/25/2008 @ 10:11pm
No, Liberals hate Bush, and anyone else who gets in the way of their agenda.

Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:41pm

Durwood, Have you ever heard of Milton Friedman? He's your posterboy and his goal was to destroy anything and everything that wasn't run by private businesses. His complete horseshit is what has been causing the nightmares for the world for the last 50 plus years.

You talk about an agenda and hating and wanting to destroy anything that goes against your agenda? Look in the mirror asshole.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/25/2008 @ 10:14pm
And isn't one of his adopted daughters from Bangldesh?

Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:40pm

Durwood, Last I checked, Bangledesh isn't Vietnam. Not even close....don't speak the same language...different customs, but what the hell, they ain't white folks, right!

I know all them foreigners with darker skin look the same and want to kill us American's because they are, well, just so damned jealous of how much better we are than them and everything....

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/25/2008 @ 10:18pm
McCain does not refer to Asians as "gooks". He refers to his captors as "gooks". He refers to the individuals that tortured him as "gooks".----Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:40pm

Curious, DTT, would this argument fly with you?

"I don't call all black people n****rs...I just call the ones who mugged me n****rs, so it's okay."???

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/25/2008 @ 10:26pm
I am still trying to find out what qualifies McCain as a war hero?

Was it because he was incompentent enough to get shot down?

Was it because he was incompentent at escape and evasion and got captured?

Was it because he cracked under torture and condemned his fellow servicemen?

What fucking qualifies him as a war hero?

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/25/2008 @ 10:57pm
It's great to know that "LOVELIBERTY" is still slithering around here. He actually enjoys relating to intelligent people, as opposed to his rightwing friends (if he has any friends). I want to hear him when the Democrats take over the entire U.S. government. He is a pathetic pompous clown, but he is good for a laugh.

Posted by philbq at 10/25/2008 @ 11:08pm
What fucking qualifies him as a war hero?

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/25/2008 @ 10:57pm

Darth, You aren't supposed to ask questions like that. It's unpatriotic. Haven't you been paying attention to the GOP talking points? Why, you must be one of them leftist commie, Un-American Americans.

Posted by Wolfgang1 at 10/25/2008 @ 11:15pm
JohnLowell-If I was a somebody I would use my somebodiness to influence people,but,like you,I'm a nobody who has to post their views in the peanut gallery.But,unlike you,I'm honest and you are a fraud who first came on here calling everyone son and acting like you are the Pope,but then you sunk to obsessing on caca and telling everyone to vote Nader while you will vote McCain.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 11:15pm
Darth---YOU SPEAK THE TRUTH.. McCain is like Bush: he was a screw-up all his life...a failure who rose only because of a powerful father. He was a terrible pilot. He has never commanded anything. There is nothing that gives him "national security" qualifications. He is a total phony who ran off with a rich bitch while still married. And now he is about to lose for good. Good riddance!

Posted by philbq at 10/25/2008 @ 11:22pm
Darin-If you pay attention you'll notice lots hate being spewed at Palin rallies,by right wingers on here,and right wing blogs for anyone who is getting in the way of their agenda.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 11:24pm
While Viet Nam was wrong the military was not nazis nor was anyone trying to commit genocide.In fact,your average troop was just trying to stay alive for however long their tour of duty was and go home,hopefully in one piece.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/25/2008 @ 11:40pm
exactly how was mc cain tested- he says he has been tested --- dont think being a pow counts

has anyone explained the importance of fruit flies to palin

i can see the moon from my house but that doesnt make me an astronaut

Posted by lougee1043 at 10/25/2008 @ 11:53pm
The best ad the Obama campaign could use now -- one with the inflammatory power of the '64 Daisy ad -- would be to show the extraordinary racism and sheer raging hatred of the McCain supporters, as in a video clip available on the Las Vegas Sun website:

http://www.lasvegassun.com/videos/2008/oct/22/983/

"Here are the McCain supporters. These are the stakes. . . ."

This may be the enduring legacy of the Palin choice, especially if she seeks a federal office in the future.

Posted by hsansom at 10/26/2008 @ 12:32am
Posted by rykart at 10/25/2008 @ 9:46pm

Simply based upon your statement calling our troops in Nam, Nazi's, puts you in the nutjob category and not to be given any more credibility or attention.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:53pm

Is that the same kind of nutcase that believes there's a huge leftist conspiracy not only in the media, but in the democratic party itself, full of so-called "socialists" and "marxists" (both words that you don't even seem to know the definition of, but why really go there at this point)?

Or is that a different kind of nutcase?

Do you believe in aliens also? Is the US government still covering up Roswell in your opinion? Did the Bush white house plan and execute the attacks on 9/11? Is the republican party constructing a huge conspiracy hellbent on instituting fascist policies also?

Please, enlighten all of us which kind of nutcase conspiracies we SHOULD and SHOULDN'T be giving credibility since you seem to have such a lock on it all.

You're a very sad individual.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 12:35am
I know that post above will fall upon deaf ears, Mr. LVLIBERTY, but you are a kook and an extremist on the very farthest fringe of American society.

Your frothing-at-the-mouth fanaticism reminds me of nothing less than the same speeches and conspiracies espoused by the SLA, and The Weathermen.

Get a grip, and join the rest of the class when you have the chance.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 12:41am
The worst part being, is I actually agree with you, LVLIBERTY.

US soldiers in Vietnam (although I assume there were a few crazy sociopathic types as there are in any large group of people) were not the ones at fault, nor were they nazis, and most who say otherwise are kneejerk assholes who don't know any better.

Too bad you have to ruin such moments of agreement with just about everything else that comes out of your keyboard.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 12:48am
texas flood

Such lies are not one bit above the rank and file skinhead holocaust denier.

What you are saying about US conduct in Vietnam is in direct conflict with an avalanche of evidence provided over many years time by the troops themselves. You might start with the Pulitzer Prize winning series in the Toledo Blade concerning years of atrocities committed by Tiger Force in Vietnam---one of many ruthless US death squads at the time, operating with utter contempt for human life.

If you don't want to be associated with Nazism, quit trying to whitewash atrocities, massacres and crimes against humanity which have been documented to the satisfaction of all honest people.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 01:26am
Rykart... There are some of us here that are in the military now... My father was in Vietnam and I still dont see him as a Nazi... This election isnt about NAM... Never was, even if McCain uses his "war-hero" status as his reasoning for being qualified as CINC... I realize there were atrocities commited by U.S. troops, as do many of us who post here... BUT to insinuate all men and women in Vietnam were all Nazi's is just plain incendiary and childish... Im guessing your between the ages of 18-22... Still live at home w/mom .. and cooking a grilled cheese is still something that baffles you.. Now go do your own laundry for a change... Obama 08' ps... Before you flame me up.. I know people in high places, and i can find you.... lol

Posted by Vvf1969 at 10/26/2008 @ 01:44am
rykart-There haven't been any documented cases of death squads in Viet Nam and,sadly,atrocities happen in every war,but they were rare and,my guess is,that you are young and easily influenced by what you want to hear.You,quite obviously,are ignorant of Nazi atrocities and know nothing about Viet Nam and need to study some history beginning with the high school level and work your way up.You disrespect those who died in the holocaust and suffered at the hands of the Nazis.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 01:57am
Vvf1969

You're wrong. This election is very much about Vietnam (among other things).

On the eve of the latest bloodbath in Iraq, our neocon friends announced we'd finally gotten over "Vietnam syndrome" --that is to say, our temporary aversion to mass murder. The current republican candidate for president has ONE claim to fame...his status as a "war hero" for murdering gooks (his word).

Last election, the democratic candidate was "Swift boated" which only means that his principled position against the Vietnam war and his revelations before congress of US atrocities in Indochina made him "un-American."

Reagan advertised Vietnam as a "noble cause" on the eve of HIS landslide election. This mentality has gotten us into two more horrific wars and will get us into many more until the public is thoroughly educated about what the United States did in Indochina.

Without impugning this or that particular soldier, the entire war WAS a case of Nazism. I fail to see how anyone aquatinted with the facts could come to any other conclusion. The barbarity in fact, outpaced the Nazis on many occasions...particularly the torture routinely meted out to our enemies...a level of barbarity that staggers the mind. Have a look at Douglas Valentine's book concerning the Phoenix program.

(As to your implied threats to me, i'd say you're the one who could stand some growing up. )

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:02am
I'll say this, some of the atrocities were intentional. Some of them were the result of our troops snapping under the pressure.

A human being can only be put in that kind of situation for so long before they consider ANY human life cheap and expendable.

I imagine some of the war protesters didn't make things any better by taking their hatred of the war and projecting that hatred onto our troops who were fucking drafted and forced to fight an unjust war.

One thing the right-wingnuts don't comprehend is that there is a huge fucking difference between not supporting a war and not supporting our troops.

I don't support the war in Iraq but I do support our troops 100%. I hope they get the medical and psychological treatment they need when this bullshit war is over.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 02:04am
rykart-You don't even have a high school level knowledge of Nazism or WW2 nor do you know anything about Viet Nam.You just want to do a self righteous rant about something that you know nothing about.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:08am
darth

I agree with some of what you say. Certainly, the fact that Vietnam soldiers were drafted makes a big difference. As we have no draft currently, the justification for joining the US military to participate in something as evil as the Iraq or Afghanistan war is much harder to excuse, particularly given the conduct of many of the troops.

In any case, it's the victims of America's aggression who deserve to be supported 100%, in my view.

nobody---DO please clue us in where YOUR knowledge of the Indochina war comes from, because it bears exactly zero relation to reality.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:14am
rykart-I lost my left leg in Viet Nam and know far more about the war than you will ever know and I know far more about WW2 than you,obviously,know.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:16am
Don't misunderstand me Rykart, we need to clean up our messes.

Its are part of that "taking responsibility for one's actions" that the right-wingnuts keep shoving down our throats while they fuck around on their wives with under-aged boys and girls in foreign countries.

But we need to clean up those messes in an intelligent and wise manner ... and without giving no-bid contracts to American companies.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 02:21am
@ I'm Nobody

As one veteran to another ... I salute you sir.

/salute

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 02:24am
nobody:

"There haven't been any documented cases of death squads in Viet Nam and,sadly, atrocities happen in every war, but they were rare..."

That's beyond laughably uninformed.

Care to retract it or is appearing ridiculous an irresistible joy to you?

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:27am
Darth-Thank you for your service.Was against the war,but volunteered as a combat medic because being in America's wars is a family tradition and because I saw the troops there as my friends and family members.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:27am
darth

no argument there.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:28am
rykart-Care to come to Kansas City,Mo and call me a Nazi to my face?You know nothing.Get out of your self righteous fantasy world.All you know is what you read.Stick to comic books.Those are on your level.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:30am
@ I'm Nobody

Same here on the family military tradition ... dating back to the Revolution and on both sides of the Civil War.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 02:31am
I think the Vietnam stuff has been adequately dealt with, so all I'm interested in right now is the one (weak)attempt at a response to the ad question:

how is that ad stooping low? has mccain repudiated limbaugh?

they are all a part of the same nasty old machine, as far as i'm concerned.

Posted by dexter666 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:35pm 

4 responses.

One, it's at least unclear whether Limbaugh was taken out of context to begin with (which is at least possible, but I recognize that's a throwaway response).

Two, McCain has repeatedly repudiated the point of view supposedly expressed in that Limbaugh quote, hence...the entire immigration policy that he's defended.

Three, the burden you're placing on him is silly anyway. Usually we ask someone to repudiate someone else when there is a reasonable connection to them. "Voting for the same party" doesn't count, otherwise we would ask both candidates to repudiate anything stupid that any extremist in their party ever said. This is why the "part of the same machine" catchphrase sounds like a nice slogan but is absolutely ludicrous if you actually try to apply it.

Four, it's not simply a question of repudiation anyway. Obama is claiming not simply that McCain has never DENOUNCED anti-immigrant sentiments, but that he in fact ADVOCATES them. Even if McCain never explicitly repudiated Limbaugh or the views expressed therein, he's still never defended them so Obama's ad is STILL a lie.

Posted by Thrawn at 10/26/2008 @ 02:33am
Nobody

Thanks for the non-sequitur. Do I take from this that you are sticking to your outlandish lie that there were no death squads in Vietnam and atrocities were "rare"?

A simple yes or no would be swell.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:33am
We missed the revolutionary war,but got all the rest, including Iraq .My dad was an army lifer who was in WW2 and Nam.Lost a cousin in Nam and have another who was disabled there,too.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:35am
rykart-Grow up and get out into the world.You're gutless and I have no respect such people.I already said that atrocities happen in every war.Your lack of reading comprehension explains your ignorance of WW2 and everything else.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:37am
Atrocities were RARE in Vietnam and there were no death squads.

And I'm Reinhold Messner.

You've got your work cut out for you, trying to convince all the other GIs who have testified that atrocities were routine.

Maybe Kerry and all the others will publish a retraction and the Toledo Blade will return their Pulitzer Prize, in light of your stunning revelations.

Somehow, I'm not holding my breath.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 02:44am
Sorry to disappoint, but your statement is just fine with me by golly!

Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 9:07pm

all in jest. christianity has taught me many good things. of course i don't want you to go.

invite your friends.

don't forget commas. they put nice pauses in the diction.

i'm glad you've chosen an earthly lifestyle. ever watch survivor man?

www.survivorman.ca/

nonetheless, i respectfully submit to you that you are failing to receive the message the bountiful orb is trying to send you.

the earth needs less entropic activity and that means being calm.

being calm with those around us, be they animals, which i imagine you are,

plants, which of course are quite yummy,

and people.

and that's where i, once again respectfully, submit to you that you interpret human interaction less calmly.

if we all could just calm down.....

imagine there's a bunch of calm people,

just kinda hangin' out,

imagine listening to people instead of SPOKESpeople,

instead of shoutshoutshout

it isn't hard to do, whoo hoo dee doo.....

i always thought the beatles were better when they were beatles.

perhaps a period of meatless ingestion will help. it has made me a much finer person. it's as if my karma got to go through one of them fancy electrocarwashes.

"Take wheat and barley, beans and lentils, millet and spelt; put them in a storage jar and use them to make bread for yourself."

mmm, spelt...

ain't no chicken in god's cookbook.

once again, respectfully,

me.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 02:44am
rykart-If you need to believe that atrocities were "routine" and that millions were put into death camps,starved,tortured for entertainment,and shot on the roadside daily for entertainment, and ethnic cleansing like the Nazis did you may,but do you mind if I go by reality?Again,you know nothing.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 02:54am
see,

look at the beatles. four very different perspectives. yet they created great music by listening to each other.

after they broke up, it was as if each one was on a quest to prooove that he was the best beatle, that the beatlegroove was ultimately created by him and that his direction was the true path to beatledom.

but really, they kinda sucked. couple good tunes. but the beatlelife was gone.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:02am
Let's see...who do I believe? The hundreds of GIs who have been interviewed, testified under oath before congress, written their own books about routine atrocities committed by US forces, etc etc etc or some guy on a website who contradicts them, while claiming the well known death squads operated by the US didn't exist?

hmmm...that's tough.

Gee...I wonder if his case is a little undercut by the widespread reportage of America herding Vietnamese into camps where they were starved and tortured?

Hmm...maybe the aerial extermination of the Laotians in the Plain of Jars is all a big myth..?

You ought to get busy on your memoirs. I think people would find your version of the Vietnam War quite unique. (Of course it would have to go in the fiction section, but still...)

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 03:06am
hey, here's some good therapy for us!

we can form a beatles tribute band.

i get to be george. just because.

mask can be paul. we all know he's left handed.

we'll let bench be ringo.

and you can be john.

"As you have heard from the beginning, his command is that you walk in love."

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:10am
oh, and crab can be billy preston, the fifth beatle.

nothing from nothing LEAVES nothing..

george martin. hmmm, emile will like being him.

and that stuart guy. ibble will be good for him. just because he changed his name.

hey!

lillian can be yoko!

darla's gonna be jealous....

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:15am
rykart-There haven't been hundreds of GIs who testified under oath.Had there been then there would be thousands in prisons.Atrocities happened.That's war, something your ignorant ass knows about,but you sure like to judge others over something you know nothing about.Are you even out of high school?You don't sound like it.That war went on for many years and involved tons of people so,of course,it's going to sound worse than it was if you just read a book or two that tells you what you want to hear.The CIA and people related to them did do some very nasty things,but that has nothing to do with your average GI..

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 03:15am
One, it's at least unclear whether Limbaugh was taken out of context to begin with (which is at least possible, but I recognize that's a throwaway response).

What is clear is that Rush has taken others out of context for years now.

Two, McCain has repeatedly repudiated the point of view supposedly expressed in that Limbaugh quote, hence...the entire immigration policy that he's defended.

Only because his Rethuglican pals keep getting busted trying to suppress the latino vote ... amongst others.

Three, the burden you're placing on him is silly anyway. Usually we ask someone to repudiate someone else when there is a reasonable connection to them. "Voting for the same party" doesn't count, otherwise we would ask both candidates to repudiate anything stupid that any extremist in their party ever said. This is why the "part of the same machine" catchphrase sounds like a nice slogan but is absolutely ludicrous if you actually try to apply it.

For years Rush and others like him have been spouting their shit on the airwaves. I don't recall anyone on the right saying "You don't speak for us and you need to shut the fuck up". Therefore the right gave their silent consent and blessings to these assholes. Which makes them part of the right-wingnut propaganda machine.

Four, it's not simply a question of repudiation anyway. Obama is claiming not simply that McCain has never DENOUNCED anti-immigrant sentiments, but that he in fact ADVOCATES them. Even if McCain never explicitly repudiated Limbaugh or the views expressed therein, he's still never defended them so Obama's ad is STILL a lie.

Because McCain knows that if he ever did openly advocate anti-immigrant sentiments his political career would be over. What McCain seems to forget is that we are all descended from immigrants (except Native Americans of course). My family immigrated here from Germany in 1752. My great-great-great-great-great grandfather brought his wife and two daughters.

BTW, I used to listen to Rush, G. Gordon, and others religiously until I finally figured out that they were full of shit.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 03:19am
We ought therefore to show hospitality to ALL men so that we may work together for the truth.

[no offense, god.]

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:19am
"Dear friend, do not imitate what is evil but what is good. Anyone who does what is good is from God. Anyone who does what is evil has not seen God."

i am from god. most of the time. getting better, that's for sure. sometimes i still ridicule ponti.

doh! did it again.

good is not christianity, although it certainly can be. it is "karma". pay forward. you know all this. i think by being calm and wishing good upon all life, including those who have committed heinous acts, we'll be one step closer to what god's talking about.

however, if we seek retribution for retribution for retribution for retribution for retribution for retribution for retribution, we'll always be retributating instead of walking in the garden.

we can go back to the garden, you know.

perhaps when you walk in your garden today you can see it as a microcosm of our world. and those tomato borers don't need to be squashed. perhaps you could grow a few more tomatoes to keep them happy. when they die, they make excellent fertilizer for your tomatoes.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:32am
see, look at darth vader.

he's luke's dad, for cryin' out loud.

yet he chose the dark side. or the dark side chose him.

imagine if darth vader,

was a real calm guy,

growin' lettuce in his garden,

no longer makin' plants fry,

whoo hoo dee do...

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:36am
sometimes i get the impression that you're talking about darth jesus....

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:36am
"Then Jesus said to them, "I ask you, which is lawful on the Sabbath: to do good or to do evil, to save life or to destroy it?"

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:43am
no longer makin' plants fry,

whoo hoo dee do...

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:36am

damnation!

that's suppposed to say "planets".

you know, one day a couple weeks ago a previewy kinda window appeared.

and then it. was. gone.

i like frying plants.

sorry, plants. and thank you.

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:45am
On Oct. 8, 1967, after a firefight near Chu Lai, members of his company spotted a 12-year-old boy out in a rainstorm. He was unarmed and clad only in shorts.

"Somebody caught him up on a hill, and they brought him down and the lieutenant asked who wanted to kill him," Henry told investigators.

Two volunteers stepped forward. One kicked the boy in the stomach. The other took him behind a rock and shot him, according to Henry's statement. They tossed his body in a river and reported him as an enemy combatant killed in action.

Three days later, B Company detained and beat an elderly man suspected of supporting the enemy. He had trouble keeping pace as the soldiers marched him up a steep hill.

"When I turned around, two men had him, one guy had his arms, one guy had his legs and they threw him off the hill onto a bunch of rocks," Henry's statement said.

On Oct. 15, some of the men took a break during a large-scale "search-and-destroy" operation. Henry said he overheard a lieutenant on the radio requesting permission to test-fire his weapon, and went to see what was happening.

He found two soldiers using a Vietnamese man for target practice, Henry said. They had discovered the victim sleeping in a hut and decided to kill him for sport.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines06/0806-07.htm

Get through this one and you'll only have a few thousand more pages of this stuff to go!

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 03:48am
If these filth you call "servicemen" aren't Nazis, they certainly perform a convincing impersonation of Nazis.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 03:55am
rykart-That sort of thing has happened in every war.One more time,atrocities happen in every war.Did you get it that time?Write it on your forehead so you can remember.Does that make the military Nazis?No,little boy.Please,read a history book or two so you can learn about the Nazis and,please,stop being disrespectful of those who suffered under the Nazis.In fact,you have convinced me that you are just a kid that just wants to call people filth and Nazis.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 04:02am
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 04:02am

i'm nobody,

I made the mistake of checking this page without being logged in, and got to see the gems dropped by rykart.

I won't give him the satisfaction of quoting a single one of his malodorous postings.

This I do have to say to you. Ignore him. The only thing one can do to satisfy somebody like that is to pay him any sort of attention.

He is the same breed of human as LVLIBERTY. Absolutely positive that only they have the whole story, and that anybody who disagrees is just an idiot. The sooner we move on, and bring the discourse to a rational, adult level, the sooner we can forget about such divisive garbage.

In my younger days I used to identify as a liberal. Some of my opinions to this day still adhere to the most basic liberal tenets. However, I have been forced into a position where I can't identify myself as any one thing simply so I can avoid being on the same level as the rykarts and lvlibertys of the world. People whose entire world rest on the reliabilities of labels.

We, as rational, adult, thinking people, need to rise above their labels, and not allow them to pigeonhole us any further. Do the right thing, ignore him, and stop feeding his twisted ego.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 05:08am
http://firemeganmcardle.blogspot.com/2008/10/credit-where-its-due.html

Above is a great youtube find by "The Atlantic." 2006 video of John McCain from back when John McCain was still being nice to people, and saying nice things about Acorn. McCain appears about ninety seconds into the video.

Posted by bobforer at 10/26/2008 @ 05:08am
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 03:02am

Everyone knows John was the best Beatle.

JEEZ!

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 05:09am
Posted by Thrawn at 10/26/2008 @ 02:33am

THRAWN, that depends on WHICH "John McCain" you're talking about...

the one before the 2008 GOP Primaries or the one now.

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/26/2008 @ 07:40am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 5:12pm

what a nice misrepresentation of this site, Rev.

what ya smokin' this week?

Posted by crabwalk at 10/26/2008 @ 08:17am
They forgot Freddy Krueger.

Pretty feeble stuff, really.

Posted by boing007 at 10/26/2008 @ 08:27am
You said some Republican just got ten months for tampering with phonelines. Do you find it the least bit odd that the conviction comes 3 years, 11 months, and 18 days after the crime was committed (but two weeks before the next election)? Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/25/2008 @ 9:37pm

Mt bad posting Darin. If you had been paying attention back in 04, though, you would have know that Tolbin was sentenced back in 05, not this year.

Your claim: no harm was done by voter irregularities in 2000 or 2004.

Fact: several republicans went to jail or paid fines for manipulating votes and or the voting process.

Fact: thousands of people did not get to vote, ,even though they had a righ to, and thousands more had their votes thrown out for no good reason.

Fact: you believe what fits your preconceived notions, just like Liver.

------

Thrawn, just read RIO's posts and you will see the inherent racism. While I wish he were atypical of "the right", we both know it ain't so. I have been told to get my "nigger loving ass" off peoples property, I have been told that Obama is a nigger ( when the Muslim fear card fails), I have met too many people that will not vote for him because he isn't white.

does this happen to whites from "the left"? You bet, but I don't recall the last time a white dude was dragged behind a truck till dead, nor has any African American ever kicked me off his property for campaigning for whitey.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/26/2008 @ 08:33am
rykrt, you use the term Nazi too liberally. It, like the other N word that I despise (but had to use for effect today) should be used extremely sparingly.

Did US troops commit atrocities? Yes. Was there a plan from central government to round up and kill ALL the "gooks". No.

Was the Viet Nam war a misguided effort? yes Was it in line with Hitlers Germany? No way.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/26/2008 @ 08:52am
Fact: several republicans went to jail or paid fines for manipulating votes and or the voting process.

Fact: thousands of people did not get to vote, ,even though they had a righ to, and thousands more had their votes thrown out for no good reason.

Posted by crabwalk at 10/26/2008 @ 08:33am

The voting process so sacred that ANYONE found guilty of tampering with it (in any way) should be sentenced to 10 years in a maximum security federal "pound them in the ass" prison with no fucking chance of parole AND they should have ALL of their assets liquidated and distributed to the voters they fucked over.

It seems that the only ones trying to steal the election by doing this kind of shit are the Rethuglicans. At least they're the only ones I've heard of being caught.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 09:15am
I'll also add this, anyone found guilty of this shit should also be permanently stripped of their right to vote AND barred from ever holding ANY government job from federal all the way down to local.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 09:39am
Hi Crab

The idea that Vietnam was not a mass extermination campaign, orchestrated by the US government and carried out on a vast, industrial scale does not jibe with the documented history of that war. That doesn't make it identical with the Nazi holocaust. In some respects, US conduct was better, in some respects it was worse. (Certainly, the devastation for generations of the SE Asian landscape and the horrifying--and continuing--birth defects caused by our efforts, fall into the worse category)

I think you'd find it reprehensible if someone dismissed what was done in the Nazi death camps by saying..'oh well...atrocities happen in every war...whatever!'

It is no less reprehensible to say the same of what the United states did to the Vietnamese.

That people continue to speak with pride of their participation in this horrific and utterly indefensible crime against humanity speaks to a deep sickness in this country.

John MCcain continues to extract sympathy from the public for the "terrible things" he "suffered" at the hands of the Vietnamese, who saved his life. He can thank his lucky stars he was not a Vietnamese captured by his fellow US troops, because his tortured (and likely, mutilated) body would be underground right now. That is what OUR side did with POWs and this was policy, not the effect of 'a few bad apples.'

All of these myths about America have to be overturned, including the ludicrous but still addictive fantasy that the atomic bombs dropped on Japan were "necessary" and that they "saved lives"---a blatant lie, according to Truman's own military brass.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 10:02am
TexasFlood-I should have ignored him from the beginning since he, obviously,knows nothing since several hundred thousand Viet Nam vets dispute his nonsense,but I reacted with anger,but calmed down once I figured out that he was just an ignorant name caller who exists in a state of blissful ignorance as he judges people and a war that he knows nothing about.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 10:38am
Rykart... Stop... Get over yourself... I wasnt "threatening" you lil guy... I dont threaten. Once again, this election has nothing to do with NAM.. stop. Deal with the here and now... You remind me of John Goodmans character in The Big Lebowski (but polar opposite) NOT EVERYTHING IS ABOUT THE NAM, MAN !! lol Please awnser a couple of questions for your fellow posters... 1. Are you American..? 2. Do you still live with a parent/s?

Just a suggestion... put down the doritos, and the x-box controller, and see the world.. IT'LL blow your mind !! your pal, Scot

Posted by Vvf1969 at 10/26/2008 @ 11:06am
Provide a source for your "several hundred thousand" Viet Nam vets who dispute what I've said about the war.

Liar.

US death squads in Viet Nam:

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/hayden

http://lists.village.virginia.edu/lists_archive/sixties-l/3405.html

Routine atrocities:

Tiger Force atrocities began with the torture and execution of prisoners in the field, then escalated to the routine slaughter of unarmed farmers, elderly people, even small children. As one former sergeant told the Blade, "It didn't matter if they were civilians. If they weren't supposed to be in an area, we shot them. If they didn't understand fear, I taught it to them."

http://hnn.us/articles/1816.html

Keep up the miserable lies. I'm sure you'll find SOME gullible fool to believe them, despite the documentary record.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 11:07am
Vvf1969

sorry...your post contains no content and your sense of humor is really not all that hot.

The republican candidate runs as a Vietnam war hero and people across the political spectrum fawn over him for it.

The last democratic candidate was demonized for having once protested the Vietnam war and exposing US atrocities before congress.

I see that as significant. You don't.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 11:13am
Moreover, the infrastructure of terror put in place by the US in Vietnam is highly relevant to current events, particularly in Iraq, as Tom Hayden makes clear in the Nation link I posted above.

His word is not the gospel but if you take issue with his contention, it would be nice if you'd post some supportive facts.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 11:29am
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/26/2008 @ 09:14am

So it's "okay" in certain circumstances to use racial slurs, as long as you think you have just cause....like McCain or Michael Richards?

Posted by Maskdelta at 10/26/2008 @ 12:02pm
lvliberty-Came to the same conclusion about ignoring him/her..He/she is just a name calling kid who has no clue as to what he/she is talking about.Enjoy your Sunday.

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 12:08pm
John Kerry's 1971 testimony noted that American military personnel there had:

"raped, cut off ears, cut off heads, taped wires from portable telephones to human genitals and turned up the power, cut off limbs, blown up bodies, randomly shot at civilians, razed villages in a fashion reminiscent of Genghis Kahn, shot cattle and dogs for fun, poisoned food stocks and generally ravaged the countryside of South Vietnam."

His testimony has been massively corroborated by journalists and other vets.

Keep the infantile lies coming, Nazis.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 12:10pm
John Kerry: "a name calling kid who has no clue as to what he/she is talking about."

Sure, pal.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 12:13pm
@ Rykart

I'm going to have to disagree with you on a lot of what you're saying. Strictly viewing it from a Viet Nam / American solider point of view:

"the CIA trained and transferred operational authority to the South Vietnamese national police"

Source: http://www.thenation.com/doc/20080331/hayden

It does not say: "the CIA trained and transferred operational authority to the American military". The CIA is not part of our military and has been out of control for a very long time.

PS: Yes I did read the entire article.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 12:16pm
Rykart.. Sad sad lil boy.. The doritos and mommy thing hit too close to home..?? I apologize. This election is about now. Dont let the 2 books you've read and internet articles (must be true, it was on the interwebs) cloud that young fragile eggshell mind... Your not my target demographic when it comes to my humor either... I ususally play to the over 21 crowd. Isnt the sweet life of zack and cody on..?? or do you Tivo that..??

OBAMA 08'

YOUR MAMAS A NAZI !!! lol

Posted by Vvf1969 at 10/26/2008 @ 12:18pm
Hi darth

..glad you had a look at the piece. It's true that the CIA operates as an autonomous universe but clearly there is cooperation with the military. CIA members oversaw much of the horrors at Abu Ghraib but obviously that doesn't absolve the GIs involved in torture--which, like the atrocities in Indochina, are widespread according to all reliable evidence and not isolated incidents, as Rumsfeld, Wm Westmoreland or our own 'I'm nobody' would have us believe.

I think Hayden's point about the tactics in use in Indochina, including the use of death squads now being replicated in Iraq, is very noteworthy. There has even been enthusiastic talk about a "global Phoenix program." We are rife for a repeat of such abominations if we fail to identify these well-orchestrated crimes in an honest way.

I never accused 'I'm nobody' of personally committing war crimes, so I fail to see what he's so bent out of shape about. His characterization of atrocities as rare events carried out by a few bad apples is factually wrong. It's a form of holocaust denial and it ought to be met with facts, no matter how unpleasant.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 12:29pm
I never accused 'I'm nobody' of personally committing war crimes, so I fail to see what he's so bent out of shape about. His characterization of atrocities as rare events carried out by a few bad apples is factually wrong. It's a form of holocaust denial and it ought to be met with facts, no matter how unpleasant.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 12:29pm

I can't speak for I'm Nobody. I will however offer a guess; the reason he may be bent out of shape is that the only atrocities he saw committed were those committed by the Vietcong against not only American servicemen but against those that aided them.

I had three uncles who fought in Viet Nam. Uncle Ben (US Army Infantry), Uncle Ralph (US Army Corps of Engineers), Uncle Alan (US Aire Force (mechanic)). All three of them saw shit committed on both sides.

Let us also remember that the Viet Nam war was planned and directed by the right-wingnut politicians (who made their fortunes off of war profiteering) safe at home fucking their housekeepers while their wives were off fucking their staff members.

Again do not misunderstand me, any messes we created we shold clean up. Anyone who planned and/or executed organized atrocities should pay the fucking price for that shit.

To those assholes who think this kind of shit is acceptable because "our enemies do it":

This is America. I don't give a fuck if our enemies do this kind of shit. We shouldn't. We are supposed to stand for something more. We can't claim the moral highground if we do the same shit as them.

Posted by Darth_Vulgar at 10/26/2008 @ 2:07pm
Darth-I saw a few on our side do horrible things,but they were not the majority and the majority would not back such people.Some turned a blind eye to it,but most were disgusted by it nor were they the ones that I would risk my life to save,but helped the others who did not do such things..

Posted by i'm nobody at 10/26/2008 @ 2:17pm
John was my favorite.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/26/2008 @ 12:01pm

i like george. listen to the earth.

My Yellow Crook Neck Squash are starting to struggle though.

Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/26/2008 @ 12:07pm

walk thy garden, listen to thy plants..

Posted by frosty zoom at 10/26/2008 @ 2:22pm
Hi darth

Undoubtedly, the Vietcong committed atrocities, but their success in winning the war was due to the fact that they enjoyed overwhelming support of the Vietnamese people. Without it, they had no hope of prevailing against a superpower raining thousands of tons of napalm and high explosives on them.

Further, at least in terms of the treatment of prisoners, there is no parity whatsoever. Vietnamese were tortured, thrown out of helicopters, burned, raped, electrocuted, mutilated or confined to barbaric tiger cages rendering them crippled for life, while criminals like McCain were treated for their wounds, kept alive-- apparently in good enough condition to waltz around the country 30 years later bad-mouthing the "gooks" on their campaign stops.

The resistance to the American dispossession of the Indians was also brutal. Again, there is no moral equivalence between the invaders and usurpers of other people's land and those who resist them and attempt to survive the murderous onslaught.

Posted by rykart at 10/26/2008 @ 2:42pm
Posted by Darin_the_Troll at 10/26/2008 @ 09:14am

It's posts like these that make me appreciate LVLIBERTY a little more.

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 4:13pm
Do you ever go out into the daylight? You are a very ignorant individual. Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/25/2008 @ 5:33pm

Funny coming from you. The man who constantly uses the phrase "typical leftist". Gotta be joking me. You get all flustered because most people here think the same exact thing about you and your ignorant rants.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/26/2008 @ 4:46pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 10/26/2008 @ 4:46pm

Well what do you expect from a bunch of left-wing, marxist abortionists!?

Posted by TexasFlood at 10/26/2008 @ 4:50pm
Hey Obama,

Don't forget.

OUT OF IRAQ NOW!

Remember?

Posted by bleedingheart at 10/27/2008 @ 09:12am

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Boo! Another Halloween Ad from John McCain

posted by Leslie Savan on 10/25/2008 @ 12:40am

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Boo! Another Halloween Ad from John McCain

posted by Leslie Savan on 10/25/2008 @ 12:40am

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