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RedditJoe Biden was substantive, thoughtful and in command. Sarah Palin ignored virtually every question and stuck to generalities and platitudes.
Yes Palin didn't stumble as she did during the Katie Couric interviews. But she didn't impress, either. It was all boilerplate--like she was giving a scripted pep talk, not proving she could handle the toughest job in the world.
Biden kept his cool, even though he clearly had a much greater mastery of virtually every subject discussed. He kept the heat on John McCain--where it should be--and forcefully defended Obama when Palin made ludicrous claims about transferring the surge to Afghanistan or "waving the white flag of surrender" in Iraq.
I'm a little surprised to see the talking heads on TV talking about what a great job Palin did. Maybe they just want this race to be closer than it currently looks. But most swing voters, in an instant snapshot, thought otherwise.
According to a CBS poll, 46 percent of uncommitted voters who watched the debate tonight thought Joe Biden was the winner. 21 percent thought Sarah Palin won, 33 percent thought it was a draw.
According to a CNN poll, 51 percent of voters though Biden won, compared to 36 percent for Palin.
(Only voters polled by Fox, surprise surprise, gave it to Palin.)
Before the debate, 54 percent of CNN voters said Palin was unqualified to be vice president. After the debate, that number (53 percent) only changed by a point.
Maybe, for once, substance prevailed over style.
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Ed Rollins of CNN just suggested that Sarah Palin established herself as a serious, viable candidate for President in 2012. He was not joking as far as I could tell.
Posted by Be Good at 10/02/2008 @ 11:45pm
Don't bet on it.
What people saw tonight was someone who could cram a whole lot of talking points and one bit of strategy into her head over the course of two weeks and deliver it like any talented forensics student.
The strategy: Say the one subject line you were coached to recall when Gwen asks a related question, then launch into the stump speech and repeat,repeat, repeat the buzz words.
Sure Joe won on substance, but Palin won just by not screwing up. Though given her extrordinary ego I wouldn't doubt she may yet choke on her, no doubt well pedicured, foot.
Posted by Pogge at 10/02/2008 @ 11:46pm
Palin didn't answer one question. Ifill, I thought, was terrible. She didn't follow up on one question by either side. Clearly, the McCain camp, influenced her moderating in that regard. I'm sure very few if any changed their minds one way or the other based on this evening.
Posted by mydoglucky at 10/02/2008 @ 11:46pm
lvliberty-People on the left,people in the middle,and people on the right are all average Americans.She tried too hard to play the role of average American,but all these politicians are elitists.Average Americans aren't in the running for POTUS or VP.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/02/2008 @ 11:49pm
No, Sarah Palin most certainly did not position herself as a viable candidate for President. However, I do think she not only improved from before, but actually managed to hold her own to an extent in some areas (primarily energy). She also (contra Nichols) DID say things of substance, even though she was often not particularly specific and was very defensive (relying more on criticizing Obama than on defending a positive McCain/Palin framework). Though I still think Biden won this arena, she put up a solid fight.
On foreign policy, however, it was no contest. Palin made a valid point about how Presidential meetings without precondition are bad, but this was drastically outweighed both by Biden's effective tagging of her and McCain to Bush's foreign policy and by her basic misunderstanding of the power structure in Iran and of the actual situation in Afghanistan. Biden provided a much more specific and thorough explanation than anything Palin could provide, and so (unsurprisingly) I think he easily outmatched her here.
Posted by Thrawn at 10/02/2008 @ 11:49pm
Joe Biden was perfect! How could people not see that? In fact, I thought that Biden did better in _this_ debate than Obama did in the _last_ debate! Even though I thought that Obama did very well.
And frankly: Palin only did well _if_ you compare her performance in this debate to her performance on the Katie Couric interviews. But Palin is not running against the person who did those Katie Couric interviews: she is running against Joe Biden, and in _that_ contest no one doubts that Biden was spectacularly good.
Posted by badiou at 10/02/2008 @ 11:50pm
Did substance prevail over style? They both seem so over-rehearsed that word stumbles and repeats (tautologies) bubbled up: "self-regulate itself"; Palin on energy and human roots of global warming.
Some substance to pick Palin up on: "corruption on Wall St" will be dealt with. In US hands nuclear arms are "a safe, stable way to use weaponry" (or some such). Palin likes "massive oversight" when it comes to Govt involvement in Wall St rescue/subsidy package, but clamours like a horn-blower on a Fox hunt that she doesn't want "healthcare being taken over by the Feds".
Why hasn't her Alaskan parliament passed the divestment from Sudan bill, given the years it has been wildly clear on the ethical investment radar?
She reckons there are "other countries who don't do ..about the climate as much as we do". Oh? Despite the lurch China and India take into the coal world, are they not diving boldly into renewables as well? What did US energy policy do over the last decade to support alternative energy, compared to "other countries"?
She finesses "the Castro Brothers" into the trifecta of Ahmedinejad and Kim Jong Il, as political 'correctness'/expediency requires her side of politics to do. So what happens to Guantanamo Bay US colony then?
She claims she gained experience Governing "a huge State"; as if geography and not population centres determined how much involvement a civic CEO had.
Biden had a few policy gambits worth focussing on too.
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/02/2008 @ 11:54pm
Hands down, Palin lost.
Heads up, Biden won.
We expect that there will be no substance from the RIGHT, only sour grapes.
No surprises on any count!
Posted by jkrogman at 10/02/2008 @ 11:58pm
Liver, what do YOU think her Achilles Heel is? She obviously doesn't think she has one since she ignored the question and launched into her umpteenth monologue about how amazing and fabulous she is. Just what this country needs, another arrogant twit like GWB on a mission from God.
What do you folks have against intelligent, thoughtful people? I mean is being a C student a prerequisite for relating to middle-class people these days. I confess to being pretty damn offended by her cutesy, patronizing, folksy sthtick, but maybe I'm the exception. I want my kids to be better educated and far more sophisticated about the world than I am. Maybe you folks are happy being called Joe Six-Pack. I think it's demeaning.
Read the Saddleback transcript on the CNN site and honestly tell me John McCain is smarter than Barack Obama. Go ahead, read it and let me know.
Posted by Pogge at 10/02/2008 @ 11:59pm
soft bigotry of low expectations 's workin for Sarah
Posted by winyahn at 10/03/2008 @ 12:00am
lvliberty-The hypocrites are you on the right,also, who suddenly became McCain supporters once he named Palin.You did not want him before that.See,the hypocrisy works both ways,as always.We humans do engage in the same actions regardless of politics.What a shock.Biden was my second choice for POTUS.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 12:01am
Palin hit on "corruption" a lot.
She of course is correct. She didn't mention that corruption has a Republican surname and that the McCain campaign is largely staffed at the top by Washington lobbyists whose profession has been corruption.
Let's hit on the "corruption" angle. Palin again is playing a losing hand.
Posted by jkrogman at 10/03/2008 @ 12:01am
Palin hit on "corruption" a lot.
Yes and not one word follow up from Ifel or Biden like, "As I recall Governor you made a call for transparency in the investigation The Anchorage Daily News calls "Troopergate" and then decided that was not a good strategy. Can you explain the decision making process and how this will discourage corruption in your state's politics? Biden could have had a dozen serious gaffes and still won if Saribou had tried to answer that one.
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 12:07am
On (muted) substance over style, Biden said a few things he can be challenged on, or could be asked to explain his ticket's position on.
First a slight style blooper. His spoken words would read as ambiguous when he said: " I don't have the stomach for genocide when it comes to Darfur". Oops. OK it was well-established he is an Interventionist at least since the "Bosniacs" were being rubbed off the Grater Serbia map, but activists for the West Papuans ('transmigrasi' demographic programme by Indonesia, etc) and others ethnic minorites and/or indigenous cultures might call on Biden and Obama's 'stomach' in a future where genocidal practices "cross that line".
Intervention in places "harbouring terrorists", like the badlands of NW Pakistan? They need to spell out how diplomacy would work in resolving the contrary aims of maintaining and supporting a democratic ally, AND intervening to get the bad guys.
Biden calls on "safe nuclear". Is that an established fact? Will it be for the next few years?
He mentions "7000 Madrassars" in Pakistan's trouble zone, but wants to help build schools. First: surely not all Madrassars are substantially different from private schools. Second: didn't brother Obama gain some education in one of the non-zealous madrassars?
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:10am
However, I do think she not only improved from before, but actually managed to hold her own to an extent in some areas (primarily energy).
Posted by Thrawn at 10/02/2008 @ 11:49pm
por favor.
she used the term "energy independence" 8 times.
that's total b.s. and YOU know it.
every candidate since nixon has said that and...............
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:14am
Who Won The First Two Debates?
Now that the first two are over can we cancel the other one and just get the election over?
Now that John McCain and his side kick have been destroyed politically, can we just get this election over and form a coalition and start healing our country? Now that the 3-ring circus that is the John McCain campaign has been exposed for what it is and none of us would in our wildest dreams trust these two at the helms of our sacred political institutions. Are you serious?
Continued here:
http://wildweezle.wordpress.com
Posted by wildweezle at 10/03/2008 @ 12:15am
Posted by wildweezle at 10/03/2008 @ 12:15am
You must be very young and idealistic to so grossly underestimate the stupidity of our fellow citizens.
Vote. And drag everyone you know out to vote. Assume nothing and don't untuck the damn ball until you are IN the end zone. (We cheeseheads lean to football analogies, metaphors and anecdotes. Sorry).
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 12:22am
Pogge gets Palin's team's strategy for this debate. Who was it she bunches in with "Joe six-pack"? Were they talkin' Moms, soccer Moms or hockey Moms? Isn't that pairing slightly degrading to men-folk, in that male voters get a red-neck name? Women voters are all parents? Maybe in her religious circles that holds true.
When folksy representative politics averages down, "chants" like "drill, baby, drill!" become popular.
Palin leads cheers for the biggest infrastructure project in US history (she said), $40 billion for natural gas pipeline from her neck of the woods. Is it as safe, and appropriate, to drill for oil (etc) on the sea-bed as she claims it is on land?
Biden said of US allies supporting his ticket's line: "5 secretaries of State; three of them Republicans". Did he mean "conservatives" or "Christian Democrats"? In places like Ireland and Australia (if not Canada), "Republican" means progressive and disestablishmentarian (Church and State), AND independent from colonial ruler.
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:25am
Joe six pack was watching the baseball playoffs and not the debate making this a bad day to try to appeal to someone who is watching another show on tv.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 12:26am
We cheeseheads
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 12:22am
go lions! :+║
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:30am
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:25am
in canada "republican" means "please, not again".
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:33am
Wigged smile debate queen.
Palin had a few moments when her big push smile-while-talking posture had sudden revision trauma. What level of smile to place when making a serious point? What about the Fox-world or Oprah audience reaction to how quickly she moved back into pro-debater zone after Biden's probably unscripted emotive choke ("child who isn't going to make it"? I thought his quick recovery deserved a slight pause for breath from his opponent, and the moderator, but debating business pushed on. Will that be taken as efficient or slightly over-rehearsed and brusque, on Palin's part?
To be fair, the possibility for that moment may indeed have been included, if not scripted by Biden's team, but the moment was real.
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 12:34am
2. We don't have anything against intelligent, thoughtful people.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:26am
except on election day.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:35am
In a debate you should be able to express your views and explain your actions about any subject. The moderator should ask questions that are crafted to expose the debaters ideas and positions. The questions asked this pair were very predictable and easily coached by "experts" during the preparation week.
Biden had absolutely no difficulty with any of the questions and presented his team's position clearly in terms that anyone could understand. The global warming question was a good example of this.
Palen, on the other hand, seemed unable to express their position at all. She likes to give a glib answer then shift into the prepared speech that sounds like a political campaign routine.
I personally prefer to elect an official who can think critically, express himself clearly and is not afraid to say where he stands.
I would have liked to see some topics like: Environmental Protection. The Cuban Embargo. Church vs State in the USA. More on Civil Rights. Women's right to choose.
BTW, not one length of pipe has been laid on the natural gas pipeline that was referred to in the evening. Not one permit has been issued, either. This transmission line will not carry any gas for at least 10 - 15 years.
Posted by cantrade at 10/03/2008 @ 12:36am
nigelgate!
Sarah Palin has committed yet another political blunder after claiming she had held talks with a British ambassador - talks that never actually took place.
In an answer to questions about her foreign policy experience ahead of tonight's make-or-break vice presidential TV debate, her aides listed numerous contacts with foreign officials - including Britain's ambassador to Washington, Sir Nigel Sheinwald.
However the meeting never occurred. Officials at the embassy swiftly contacted the McCain-Palin campaign to inform them of the discrepancy.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1066426/Sarah-Palin-
blunders-talks-British-ambassador-took-place-TV-debate-looms.html
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:38am
Guerrillas detonated two big bombs in Shiite areas of Baghdad on Thursday morning, killing 12 and wounding 40.They were striking at Shiite worshipers celebrating the end of the month-long Ramadan fast.
THE SURGE!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:40am
Palin came across like the perfect Stepford Candidate. She held it together, kept her poise (like a beauty queen) and quite honestly all the hard work paid off.
I agree with you that Biden showed himself to be a more formidable, knowledgeable candidate. Not as unlikable as I feared he'd come off.
she is just so gosh darn irritating. She hit all the perfect notes to get the swing Republican voters (by properly invoking the name of Reagan) but golly gee I give Team McCain a 1, maybe 2 point lift. Dontchya think!
Posted by Ryter at 10/03/2008 @ 12:44am
"You leftists..."
It's just silliness. I don't have to agree with Obama or Biden on 100% of the issues. 65% works fine when I agree with the other side on 0%.
Dern it. Fer sure. Nuke-u-lar. Mivirick.
If Biden is arrogant, he's earned the right.
Posted by DexterManley at 10/03/2008 @ 12:44am
Really, admitting to an Achilles Heel is suicide in a debate?
Nonsense. Anyone as well educated as you claim to be knows that arrogance is just as dangerous. You must also be aware that true humility is a strength and a virtue, not a weakness. Palin, being a Christian should be well aware of this since our entire faith is based upon that principal.
Obama has vision, ideas and a broad intellect. We need that now. We don't need someone who can relate to Joe Six-Pack-whoever he is-or an old man who seems to be confusing Iraq with Vietnam. This is one of thise moments in history where the change has to be a"short, sharp, shock" as the Brits say.
The one thing I think Biden said that was not true-though I think he believes it-is that he will support Obama fully. I think that age and experience have hard wired him to think inside a very small box. It will be hard for him to take political chances no matter how clear the goal.
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 12:47am
"Only in your dreams Ari. Biden showed his usual arrogant buffoon personality. Palin-grand slam-won by identifying with average Americans. Maybe that's why you and the left just don't get it."
Assuming the immediate post-debate polling is trying to get average Americans, or at least average voters, it seems Ari's dreams were right on the money. Not sure what the "it" is that Berman didn't get, but he did get reality.
Posted by onthehelm at 10/03/2008 @ 12:48am
Lions! Et tu, Frosty, et tu?
Well, at least it isn't Da Bears or the Vikings. Course now I suppose I'll find out someone else I like here are fans of THOSE guys. Sheesh.
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 12:51am
Posted by DexterManley at 10/03/2008 @ 12:44am
Ώquiubo?
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/actnow/367056/if_
only_they_could_all_vote
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:52am
Jeee-zuz,
Sarah Palin is running for the VICE PRESIDENCY.
It's almost like her supporters are channeling some strange energy that says 'Let's all imagine that John McCain is dead, then the hockey moron will help us all relax into the dungheap of our own creation"
And she must be taking lessons from GW on how to mispronounce 'nuclear'. She's just another nosehair with expensive glasses. She did well as a debater, I'll give her that, but we do not need a fundamentalist trigger happy hypocrite anywhere near the red button. She could help Joe with his Depends. That's a little extra duty as VP that she's not focusing on as yet.
The Obama/Biden ticket is flawed as well... let's not let them off the hook. But they are the best choice, the best opportunity for the rest of the world (yes, there's a world beyond beer and football) to breath a sigh of relief in the hopes that our national bi-polar attitude has abated somewhat. Let's just hope that little George Bush and fartbreath Cheney don't declare martial law and rain on our parade.
Posted by ficheye at 10/03/2008 @ 12:52am
To Bazdicoot and Lvliberty,you seems to have a problem with people with common sense and intelligence and that is the reason you can easily support someone like GW and Palin. People like you both are what Republicans call the "base", people with little ability to think and make good commonse decisions, the also call you all "Joe Six Pack", well to be honest, due to George Bush's policies with the support of McSane, you JOe's cannot even afford a six pack anymore, so from here on I will call you short minded people "Joe three pack".
Posted by Gusto at 10/03/2008 @ 12:58am
Considering that Biden was essentially handcuffed by having to be respectful to an opponent that could only speak to 'kitchen table' talking points... I think he did extremely well. This was not a real debate... it was an exercise in 'gaff prevention' and congeniality.
Palin's job in this debate was to keep the bar low... thus keeping Biden relatively tethered to political generalities and her mild cheap shots. Though Palin accomplished her mission with reasonable efficiency, Biden, statesman that he is, stepped over the bar on many occasions... without being either patronizing or 'elitist'... and countered gracefully and with due force.
His attacks were almost entirely aimed explicitly at McCain and Bush... and he was gentlemanly enough to let Palin 'off the hook'. Catch and release... something they understand upinalaskas...;^)
It is likely that if he had really 'gone for the jugular' by flaying Palin directly... and I don't doubt that he could of... that the backlash in the coming weeks would have been substantial.
Thank you Joe! Well done!
Posted by ttr at 10/03/2008 @ 12:59am
what the hell is "clean coal"?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:59am
I found it interesting the difference between the answers Biden and Palin gave when asked what would change if they had to take on the role of President.
Biden seemed to emphasize that he and Obama were on the same page on major points and that in the event, Biden would continue working toward the same goals.
Palin seemed to emphasize that there were differences between she and McCain and I didn't hear a similar commitment to his goals.
I'm wondering if anyone else heard the same.
Posted by jrevere at 10/03/2008 @ 01:02am
ttr
yup.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:02am
IFILL: Governor, you mentioned a moment ago the constitution might give the vice president more power than it has in the past. Do you believe as Vice President Cheney does, that the Executive Branch does not hold complete sway over the office of the vice presidency, that it it is also a member of the Legislative Branch?
PALIN: Well, our founding fathers were very wise there in allowing through the Constitution much flexibility there in the office of the vice president. And we will do what is best for the American people in tapping into that position and ushering in an agenda that is supportive and cooperative with the president's agenda in that position. YEAH, SO I DO AGREE WITH HIM THAT WE HAVE A LOT OF FLEXIBILITY IN THERE, and we'll do what we have to do to administer very appropriately the plans that are needed for this nation.
egad!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:05am
DICTATOR/CHENETTE '08
We Know What's Right!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:06am
IFILL: Vice President Cheney's interpretation of the vice presidency?
BIDEN: Vice President Cheney has been the most dangerous vice president we've had probably in American history. The idea he doesn't realize that Article I of the Constitution defines the role of the vice president of the United States, that's the Executive Branch. He works in the Executive Branch. He should understand that. Everyone should understand that.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:07am
Ha! Even the Fox News Poll has Biden winning the debate! 61-38 at the moment!
Posted by argentinagnome at 10/03/2008 @ 01:10am
Frosty, I too wondered which Constitution she read where there is flexibility regarding the role of the Vice President. Course she couldn't have pulled that crapola with Obama. I suspect that having TAUGHT Constitutional law he might have handed her her head with full quotes.
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 01:14am
Clean coal- Outstanding & it is mild
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:16am
Palin said "Rear such and such's head" again!! She should avoid that phrase because it makes us think of her dumb comment about Alaskans being in a position to see if Putin "rears his head" from Russia... like some sort of redoubtable standing cobra rising up from the Siberian skyline
Posted by argentinagnome at 10/03/2008 @ 01:20am
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:16am |
My problem with clean coal is you still have to decapitate a mountain, fill a valley and foul the water to dig it. What is so clean about that?
Night
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 01:20am
I also agree with "ttr". M. "Gusto" posted this: ...you seems to have a problem with people with common sense and intelligence and that is the reason you can easily support someone like GW and Palin. People like you both are what Republicans call the "base"...
putting me in same tiny bracket as the neo-con bugbear "lvlibertyz". Maybe complaining about Palin's demeaning populist tones has me floating about somewhere not easily understandable. Anyway, I have read all three article blog responses since this debate, and after last week's Pres one, and my position is in line with those espoused by the likes of: "pogge", probably "frosty zoom" and TheNation-reading (small "l") liberals.
From what I have read in last few months of engagement with Nation blogging, yr "redriver" and "lvlibertyz" are having some nasty fun stirring up their opponents. I think the odd moment of healthy debate among diverse opinions makes for good on-line community. If someone thinks McCain-Palin are any different from the likes of Republicans of the inglorious past, then I welcome the opportunity to read the compost that makes their opinions grow. So there, 'gusto'...
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 01:24am
Posted by Pogge at 10/03/2008 @ 01:20am
Sure good for the railroad biz though. Must have seen a thousand carloads of it when I drove through Nebraska once.
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:28am
probably "frosty zoom"
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 01:24am
ever enigmatic ..... _
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:31am
Re: Clean Coal Takeoff on an old cigarette ad, folks.
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:41am
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:38am
In colonial America almost every man started the day with a TUMBLER of whiskey, Reverend. And yes that included the clergy, Please go have a drink. But to you that's probably traditional, not scriptural.
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:47am
It was pretty obvious, in watching a live telecast here, that Old Joe got done over pretty thoroughly by Palin.
She showed Biden to have been an erstwhile supporter of Bush's Iraq war, that he was a backward looking reactionary with no new policies, a Washington all talk and no action politician and completely out of touch with any real-world energy policies or initiatives (clean coal technology implementation is about 20 years away and renewables constitute less than one percent of US power generation capacity). Biden may be a lawyer but energy visionary he is not. Palin made him appear the dunce of the class (which if you like to check you will find was about where Biden sat during his academic life. ie. when he was not plagiarizing
In contrast Palin showed very clearly what the characteristics of a true leader, who has a track record of getting things done, looks like. Very impressive potential presidential material who tends to make Biden and Obama (and possibly Mac too) look like cardboard cutouts of the real thing.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:48am
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:48am
Do they use tumblers in Australia, too? For kool-aide?
Posted by Sorelish at 10/03/2008 @ 01:54am
I'm wondering if anyone else heard the same.
Posted by jrevere at 10/03/2008 @ 01:02am
Yes I heard Biden, who's answer was at best sycophantic and Palin's who clearly is a woman who has her own differences with McCain on some aspects of energy policy, for example, and is not afraid to argue them with him.
In fact it is the sort of healthy interaction and exchange of ideas should exist at that level.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:57am
2. We don't have anything against intelligent, thoughtful people. I have a high IQ, multiple degrees and am very well read, have travelled to over 30 countries. that is not the issue. WOW! This is truly impressive. And all that on top of a few sixpacks???
Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 01:57am
"You do that by lowering taxes on American workers and on our businesses. And you build up infrastructure, and you rein in government spending, and you make our -- our nation energy independent."
how on earth will you do all that?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:58am
I made a very successful career in the Aerospace and Defense Industry because of my ability to exercise common sense and leadership (make decisions). I don't know you but you are more likely like the 99% who could never have effected change and productivity as I did here and overseas during my career.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:38am
oh, so now you're arrogant about blowing up babies........
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 01:59am
Very impressive potential presidential material
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:48am
put down that vaseline!
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:01am
RE: lvliberty1's post: I'm really confused by your post. Seems you're "highly educated" w/ Multiple degrees etc. World traveler also and high IQ etc? It seems if I were you to, be touting these kind of impeccable credentials I'd be ashamed to use such "less than impeccable" SPELLING as you just did in your post? I just love it when right wingers try to talk down to Democrats using the old famous Reps points of leading people to believe all Democrats are (1) less educated (2) less religious (3) less ambitious (4) have a lesser degree of morals and so on. What ever happened in your Grammar classes "if you do" really have all of your supposed credentials which I doubt? It seems to me you're just another Trojan Rep bullshitting your way through. I'm a dummy myself though w/ a high school dropout degree. I've raised three kids which all have degrees though. They are all highly successful in their respective fields today, etc. Because I've had to always work my ass off to keep ends meeting as well as put them through school, Kent State, Akron school of Nursing, Industrial engineering (5) yr school etc. I take offense at your attempt to classify all Dems as being lazy, not having a faith to guide us, and insinuating we have lesser IQ's. My older brother lives in Upper Arlington, Ohio has a Masters in business, was an associate professor for awhile and at the moment he and I agree I'm doing quite well (all things considered. Matter of fact at present time, financially also. I can't figure out whether you're Laura Ingram, (or) Shaun Hannity over here w/ the little folks trying to coyly pitch for the Rep's?
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:02am
what the hell is "clean coal"?
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 12:59am
Kinda like "clear skies".
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:02am
"Your taunt is so typical of the snobbery of leftists who think that anyone who is conservative must be a mental midget without education and accomplishment."
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:38am
He blasts back at retired Armed services veteran (writes 'gusto') that in his career in aerospace (air-strike industry) and 'defence industries' (US projected power) his type of common sense was did more to effect change and productivity than his critic. Since his critic may have been involved in using the tools of lvlibertyz's trade, and that that scourge of a trade effects change on the ground in places like occupied East Timor (Suharto's airstrikes), and US arms trade is clearly productive, given its fat subsidies and greedy surges ever-outwards, I think the industrialist is displaying snobbery.
I consider elites who dabble in political correctness (that right-wing Israel policy is always right, that being articulate like John Kerry is somehow Unamerican or off-putting to the voters of your great nation...) as being educated or accomplished in similar degrees as we who oppose you. What you make of those assets when forming values that form your capacity for tolerance and an optimistic world-view; well, that is the issue where establishment types seem to clutter up too much power for too long a time.
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 02:03am
Why does Biden, as well as the rest, make arguments based on offhand fragments of comments the opponent once said? These out of context, historical tidbits,"He said....", "He said...." --- are so easy to argue against! Why not argue on the concrete, specific acts of deregulation by Repubs???? A quick list of examples would be so much more convincing and irrefutable than this....
Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 02:05am
Kinda like "clear skies".
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:02am
or "enduring freedom"
lol.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:07am
bazdicoot
are you related to this fellow:
http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/webpages/bhan-5379sx?open
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:12am
The following two links will be all you need to make a decision about John McCain:
http://share.ovi.com/media/mebadgett.AntiWarRadio/mebadgett.10304?sort=5
http://www.military.com/opinion/0,15202,164859,00.html
Posted by mebadgett at 10/03/2008 @ 02:13am
Haven't we had enough of these fake-ass "folky" politicians? Haven't we seen enough imbecile cowboys. Republicans can't get enough cowboys, or cowgirls apparently. Believe it or not, some people love that shit.
But I must say she exceeded our expectations, and you have to give her credit for that.
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:13am
lvliberty1 I salute you and hope to become a well adjusted well traveled well educated well employed leader of men someday myself.....
Posted by mithras at 10/03/2008 @ 02:17am
Amen to FcukReagan above. Yes I give her lots of credit for having the abillity to "cram" in short time! But as Geraldene Ferraro said earlier "nobody really won." Hers was I think an honest opinion claiming "Both Canidates" won. So all things considered, since Obama is starting to move well in swing states, McCain pulling money out of Mich, etc it's getting close to being all over but the crying for Reps?
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:24am
Her mere survival is in itself a victory for her ticket in that she's somewhat legitimized herself. Regardless of her substance, she demonstrated a talent of the sort that George Bush had for that whole folksy, cutesy thing that people, yes, actually connect with. In electoral politics, it's those character details that often are the difference in election outcomes Not that I'm terribly worried at this point, ya know!
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:24am
M. Frosty, enigmatic one, no, real name only on-line, unless joining US left-right debate. But I'll go sometime to see who my own ultra-distant cousin might be. Yes, Australian.
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 02:12am "are you related to this fellow:
http://www.dpiw.tas.gov.au/inter.nsf/webpages/bhan-5376sx?open"
Posted by bazdicoot at 10/03/2008 @ 02:30am
Wow, FcukReagan I just realized that if you exchange your "c" & "k" in your username it expresses my exact thoughts about the guy! Remember he brought us (Trickle Down) economics? That Pappy Bush declaired to be "Voodo Economics".Yes that's quite a handle you're using there.
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:30am
Only in your dreams Ari.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/02/2008 @ 11:43pm
Funny you say that:
"The few times I drifted off to snooze during the debate, I quickly kept awaking upon only hearing the exchange and dreaming that Biden was actually debating with a 16 year old... It finally occurred to me that it was her voice and annunciating-- it just sounds so cute. Sans barely any substance and the visuals, she's 16, she's pretty good at 16."
Posted by hsuBfools at 10/03/2008 @ 02:32am
Gov Palin made a fool out of Biden. The left as usual just can't see it.
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 01:55am
I agree Liberty.
Until now I thought Palin was a very personable woman (I'm afraid our female politicians tend to be headkickers like our male variety) with a very nice approach to people but apart from the convention speech wondered about her potential and even viability for the VP job.
She dispelled those doubts for me in this debate. She is a very powerful political debater but with that unique characteristic of getting an empathetic response from her hearers and particularly viewers. ie her body language is in sync with what she is arguing.
Whilst those on the left are upset that she didn't provide the answers that a less skilled politician may have answered and thus walked into a trap she was able to see where that may lead and very adroitly negotiated her way through a potential minefield and take control of the debate. That is pure instinct and has little to do with coaching.
Though I don't fully subscribe to it, it is often claimed by Aussies and Brits that Americans have no sense of humour. So perhaps the clincher for me was her response to the question about her wondering, after being chosen as a candidate, what a VP does or something to that effect. She turned it around beautifully (and in true Aussie style if I may say so) by reminding us that Joe had once claimed he had no interest in being VP, and like her he was joking also. Which makes her eligible for honorary Aussie citizenship
Also the one about credits for the grade three-ers in her brother's class for watching the debate certainly resonates with Aussies and with Middle America I guess. She kept coming across as very personable as well as intellectually disciplined.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 02:39am
I'm a little confused. Let me see if I have this straight..... If you grow up in Hawaii, raised by your grandparents, you're "exotic, different." Grow up in Alaska eating mooseburgers, a quintessential American story. If your name is Barack you're a radical, unpatriotic Muslim. Name your kids Willow, Trig and Track, you're a maverick. Graduate from Harvard law School and you are unstable. Attend 5 different small colleges before graduating, you're well grounded. If you spend 3 years as a brilliant community organizer, become the first black President of the Harvard Law Review, create a voter registration drive that registers 150,000 new voters, spend 12 years as a Constitutional Law professor, spend 8 years as a State Senator representing a district with over 750,000 people, become chairman of the state Senate's Health and Human Services committee, spend 4 years in the United States Senate representing a state of 13 million people while sponsoring 131 bills and serving on the Foreign Affairs, Environment and Public Works and Veteran's Affairs committees, you don't have any real leadership experience. If your total resume is: local weather girl, 4 years on the city council and 6 years as the mayor of a town with less than 7,000 people, 20 months as the governor of a state with only 650,000 people, then you're qualified to become the country's second highest ranking executive. If you have been married to the same woman for 19 years while raising 2 beautiful daughters, all within Protestant churches, you're not a real Christian. If you cheated on your first wife with a rich heiress, and left your disfigured wife and married the heiress the next month, you're a Christian. What am I missing here? Please tell!
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:40am
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:40am
Amen to that! Now then, is America smart enough to notice? We shall see....
Posted by FcukReagan at 10/03/2008 @ 02:48am
Hey all, check this out about Sarah's "We're going to clean up the terrible corruption in Govt" line. Check out what McCain'n been recently lying about! Sarah parroting same of coures. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26859857/
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 02:53am
Lets see here for some more of America's logic??? If, while governor, you staunchly advocate abstinence only, with no other option in sex education in your state's school system while your unwed teen daughter ends up pregnant, you're very responsible. If your wife is a Harvard graduate lawyer who gave up a position in a prestigious law firm to work for the betterment of her inner city community, then gave that up to raise a family, your family's values don't represent America's. If you're husband is nicknamed "First Dude," with at least one DWI conviction and no college education, who didn't register to vote until age 25 and once was a member of a group that advocated the secession of Alaska from the USA, your family is extremely admirable. Are the republicans really serious....????? We as Americans are really not stupid...Our first chance of hope in the White House since JFK and Bill Clinton we are not going to mess it up now by believing all the deceitful lies that you are trying to use to undermine this election and to keep Barack Obama out of the White House......... When Abe Lincoln, JFK, and Martin Luther King were assonated they all had the same dream of hope for this country, The people who killed them Silenced the Voice, but not the Dream. That Dream of Hope, Equality and Prosperity still lives on in the hearts of all of the American people and it lives in the heart of Barack Obama!!!!!!! Go-Go-Go Bam Bam!! We need "REAL CHANGE"
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 03:08am
Sooooo, Since I'm up past my bedtime hour & must get off of Daddy's computer Good Night to all! What a hell of a night. Bye
Posted by moderator at 10/03/2008 @ 03:12am
Bye, Sarah.
Good to know that good hands will be presiding over the Senate for the next 8 years.
Not so good to know that who loves Israel more will continue to plague US foreign policy.
Posted by sloper at 10/03/2008 @ 03:18am
"Whilst those on the left are upset that she didn't provide the answers that a less skilled politician may have answered and thus walked into a trap she was able to see where that may lead and very adroitly negotiated her way through a potential minefield and take control of the debate. That is pure instinct and has little to do with coaching."
Actually, it had everything to do with coaching. She didn't answer the questions because she didn't dare to (her attempts to deal with questions on the merits during the Couric interviews showed why), so instead she just repeated a script over and over again.
Any "victory" she had consisted in not having the moose in the headlights look for once. It may have stopped one part of the McCain campaign's hemorrhaging but that is a rather negative kind of victory; one that was more than offset by the news of McCain's having shut down his Michigan campaign.
"out of touch with any real-world energy policies or initiatives (clean coal technology implementation is about 20 years away and renewables constitute less than one percent of US power generation capacity)."
As opposed to off-shore oil drilling which, even after 20 years, would have a negligible impact on prices and output?
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 03:31am
As opposed to off-shore oil drilling which, even after 20 years, would have a negligible impact on prices and output?
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 03:31am
You obviously were not listening to Joe, B, as he said ten years for the Alaskan energy resources to come on line. But there is more to it than that and which Joe and apparently you are missing.
Neither Biden nor you have a clue what oil and natural gas reserves can be economically exploited until the proving up of Alaska's oil and gas resources into reserves. Some of these are potentially massive fields. Palin is up with these potential figures. Biden is parroting ignorance of the likely size of these fields and obviously unaware of the rapidly advancing extraction or recovery technologies.
But there is more to it than that. Look at this comparison and you will quickly see why power generation from gas fired plants is the most environmentally friendly and why Palin can link these fossil fuels, mainly natural gas, with concern for climate change.
Fossil Fuel Emission Levels (CO2 Only)
Pounds per Billion Btu of Energy Input
Pollutant Carbon Dioxide
1. Natural Gas 117,000
2. Oil 164,000
3. Coal 208,000
http://tinyurl.com/2jdgx6
I've listed CO2 only but you will find that natural gas also has a lower level of other pollutants (except CO) than oil or coal.
So when Palin was promoting Alaska's natural gas and oil in the context of environmental and energy concerns poor old Joe was waffling on about something he was technically clueless about.
This is why Palin knows what she is talking about:
"she (Palin) chaired the Alaska Oil and Gas Conservation Commission from 2003 to 2004. This Commission is responsible for overseeing oil and gas drilling and production, reservoir depletion.."
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 05:21am
You're kidding, right? Biden was arrogant? Looked pretty gracious to me. If that was me, the last half hour when Palin rattled along at a hundred miles an hour talking a stream-of-conciousness blue streak about absolutely nothing, I'da screamed at her to please shutup. If you cut out all the Joe Biden parts and splice all of Palin's moments together the last half hour, you could make a tape to play at Guantanamo that'll really get them screaming torture.
Posted by dcaprita at 10/03/2008 @ 05:42am
If you came from another planet and watched the debate and said which person was more "Presidential" you would have to say Biden. Sarah is just too folksy for this high office.
Posted by throwin at 10/03/2008 @ 05:47am
And lets just say it now, shewants to be President! She went over the top by saying that the veep should have more power.
We know you do Sarah.
Posted by throwin at 10/03/2008 @ 05:49am
AW SHUCKS...that there Sarah Palin gal sure's a Joe SixPackin' Hockey Mom! YOU BETCHA'! And - like most Americans (according to the post-debate polls) - I feel like my IQ dropped about 35 points every time she avoided answering the question she was asked. At least Biden sounded like he'd actually thought about the ideas he was discussing. Thank God for him...he resurrected my brain cells after the Palin Effect.
Posted by throwin at 10/03/2008 @ 05:53am
idols once of stone, now of plastic & lipstick
she's hollow inside
McCheney reams Ms Liberty
Authority/Herd/idol worship/LV
Posted by winyahn at 10/03/2008 @ 05:57am
Actually, it had everything to do with coaching. She didn't answer the questions because she didn't dare to (her attempts to deal with questions on the merits during the Couric interviews showed why), so instead she just repeated a script over and over again.
Any "victory" she had consisted in not having the moose in the headlights look for once. It may have stopped one part of the McCain campaign's hemorrhaging but that is a rather negative kind of victory; one that was more than offset by the news of McCain's having shut down his Michigan campaign. "
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 03:31am
The first para is your opinion and I don't share it but having seen Palin in full flight in the Biden debate my suggestion is that she perhaps thought, as many of us did that Couric's questions didn't really deserve a serious answer. I mean only lawyers would even bother to remember Supreme Court cases. What's the point in such a question? To show she is or is not a bookish nerd? I wonder how many cases Couric or non-lawyers here or out in the electorate have heard of let alone remember. When your media goes on as it did on this one it is probably one reason foreigners are justified in thinking you Americans have no sense of humour and take yourselves far too seriously. The question was trivial.
Having followed the EC position it seems to me that Michigan was never likely to be a GOP pickup (Dem 92,96,00 &04) and money spent there would be a waste. Ohio, Virginia, Florida, Nevada and perhaps Colorado are the more borderline states where McCain would get a better return on his advertising buck.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 05:57am
@ FROSTY: Di a Stephen Harper el apodo "El Prinicipe Azul de Otawa" pa' referir al personaje de los cuentos de hadas, ves? "The Prince Charming of Ottawa". By I like "The Blue Prince of Ottawa", too. It reminds me of "The Blue Boy" painting by Gainsborough!
You've made excellent points by the way throughout this discussion for and against Obama/Biden. "Clean coal," I believe, is whatever it is that Obama donor Peabody Coal does. That doesn't make Obama a bad guy. It just leads to the kind of silliness you noted.
I was all set to apologize to SR Jenkins for having been facile with him about The Ugly Americans and then I saw Sarah Palin attempt in vain to debate Joe Biden and now I don't see the need to apologize. The woman was wearing a FLAG PIN the size of a master chef's saute pan!
I think Biden's crowning achievement in the debate was not destroying her on foreign policy or on Bushonomics or on getting her to assert the "Unitary Executive" theory of the Vice Presidency or his unusual tolerace for her foolishness.
His crowning achievement was in being more folksy and personable than she is. I'm definitely biased but all the "doggone its" and "fer sures" and "Washington answers" were no match for Biden's story about his dad looking for work in Wilmington and leaving him with his mom in Scranton. "Champ". Perfect. That's what nice fathers call their sons. It had the absolute ring of truth. My father called me "grandote" and "viejito" and "asesino" and all kinds of Russian and Yiddish terms of endearment, DOGGONE IT!
Disculpame, brother. No eres canson ni mucho menos. Me gusta tu forma de escribir y pensar!
Ready for hockey season? Montreal is really only one good forward away from being the best team in the conference. Leafs, mediocre.
Posted by DexterManley at 10/03/2008 @ 06:09am
I recall in 2000 and again in 2004 the comments of the "good ole boys" and assorted rednecks that said they'd vote for Junior because, "he sounds like us." "he's a good ole boy."
Well gee golly, we've got another one for the redneck crowd ... Sarah Palin.
How on Earth can people actually look at themselvs in the mirror and say with a straight face that Palin did a good job during this debate? Not to mention be a heartbeat away from the Presidency. It's a scary thought.
Her performance was to be expected. Talking points and unable to stay on subject was so clearly evident.
Give a ex-small town sports announcer a script and of course he or she can follow it.
But the bottom line is, I don't want "joe six pack" in the office. I don't a "pit bull w/ lipstick" or a "hockey mom" I want ... we need experience and insight running this nation in this most critical of times.
That people watched this debate to see if she would fail is a reflection on our collective intelligence.
That we are subjected to Palin's nonsense forced on us by a clueless John McCain, is an insult.
Meanwhile the rest of the world look at us like we are idiots. I'm beginning to believe, that for the most part they are right.
Anyone who could possibly entertain Palin as VP OR President has to be among the most uninformed, narrow minded of all time.
No more good ole boy Bush crap. Speaking for myself, I do not want some idiot who can not frame a sentence without gratuitous slang thrown in for us little people.
Palin is an embarrassment to America.
Posted by Hoot at 10/03/2008 @ 06:32am
It was an embarassment to any woman working in Corporate America to hear and watch Sarah Palin last night. I expected her to any time use the phrase: "Gollee" at the end of her sentences. It was like watching an episode of Mayberry RFD whenever she spoke.
What a joke the Republicans are pulling on America. This is the best woman candidate they could find? As a former Republican, I can tell you there's lots of other educated and refined women they could have picked from.
She sounded like a parrot repeating what she had memorized. Her Joe Six Pack/Soccer Moms references fits in with the demographics they are trying to capture. We won't find her in any discussion of substance, only light fluff with buzz words thrown in. All Soccer Moms should be insulted.
The NPR emcee, I'll call it emcee, because it was too light to be called a real debate, constantly light gloved Palin.
where were the questions on women's rights, Palin's position on Creationism in public schools, her conversion to global warming in a matter of days, not weeks. Very disappointing how it was handled. Electing this ticket will only repeat what we've had for the last eight years. Arrogance, embezzling the America treasury, "their way or the highway" mentality, more lives lost or destroyed for the wrong reasons, undermining Scientific education and research in this country, need I go on? Think people....McCain a maverick??? Oh, once in a while, but over the last 8 years he's voted 90% of the time with Bush and proud of it......now, he starts using the words: "Change, Country First" and you buy it???? Give me a break. Look beyond them draping themselves in the flag and "God & Country"; look to their record, their policies,then vote. Don't be fooled again
Posted by HoosierGal at 10/03/2008 @ 07:39am
She WINKED AT ME!
There is no way in hell am I voting for a VP who winks at me.
Posted by ankcdisney at 10/03/2008 @ 08:14am
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 12:26am
I watched Supernatural and recorded the debate to watch tonight. Gotta love the DVR :)
Posted by jayneslilsis at 10/03/2008 @ 08:27am
Oh PLEASE-- 'folksy'!
The only females I know that sound like Palin are either 16 years old or strippers.
I was waiting for her to say "Can I call you 'Daddy'?"
She knows how to attract guys.
And apparently it worked on some here...
Posted by hsuBfools at 10/03/2008 @ 08:31am
Posted by hsuBfools at 10/03/2008 @ 08:31am
Heheh...actually if you remember, she DID say upon shaking hands with Biden...
"Can I call you Joe?"
Look, I think the spectrum of "How she did?" is pretty clear. LRJONES and LVLIB (Hard Right) thinks she "batted it out of the park"...Softer Right THRAWN thinks she did "okay"....and the Left thinks she sucks.
I tend to come down closer to the Middle-Left, she did fair, just threw out a lot of pat answers and memorized sound bites....but mostly she did NO GOOD whatsoever for her ticket.
Maybe re-energized the Base after a DISASTEROUS week of Couric interviews....but nothing else.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 08:53am
LRJ & LL
You know Palin believe in "intelligent design" - too bad she didn't extend that idea into her debate answers. In fact, as far as I can tell she didn't answer the questions. I mean really guys - you're buying this crap? And then cheering about it? The only "up side" I see for Palin was at least she didn't suck as bad as folks anticipated. How you turn that into a win involves mental gymnastics that boggle the imagination.
Posted by leftofcenter at 10/03/2008 @ 09:34am
Actually, Ari, Biden proved his expertise at dodging questions as well.
Palin appeared her old self again. I'm sure the Palinhaters were expecting last night to be the coup de grace, hoping she'd collapse behind the podium or run crying off the stage, and it didn't happen. As one commentator said later, "they must be tearing their hair out."
Someone must have sat her down in Arizona and read her the riot act, or, more likely she read it to herself, after the Couric interviews. Maybe they were a wake up call.
What was it KVH called her article the other day?
Thank You Katie Couric?
I agree completely
Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/03/2008 @ 09:39am
"You obviously were not listening to Joe, B, as he said ten years for the Alaskan energy resources to come on line. But there is more to it than that and which Joe and apparently you are missing."
You are off on so many points. First, there is no contradiction between my statement and Biden's. He said that it would take ten years for resources to come on line, I was talking about their impact in twenty years.
"Neither Biden nor you have a clue what oil and natural gas reserves can be economically exploited until the proving up of Alaska's oil and gas resources into reserves. Some of these are potentially massive fields. Palin is up with these potential figures. "
The Office of Energy Administration does. My information is taken from their report on offshore oil in the lower 48-- http://www.eia.doe.gov/ oiaf/aeo/otheranalysis/ongr.html
Their report on the Alaskan fields estimated that by 2025, the production would only be .6-1.6 million barrels/day. It buttressed Biden's point on timing in saying that it would take 7-12 years from approval to drill until production. The report also found that by 2025, the impact would only reduce oil prices by up to 30-50 cents/barrel (or about 2% off the project oil price they used for this analysis). Likewise, by 2025, the imported oil percentage would go from a project 70% to a best-case scenario of 64%.
Further, the point on CO2 emissions is still spot on, unless you are asserting that Palin only wants to get to the natural gas reserves and has no interest in the oil.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/oiaf/ servicerpt/ogp/pdf/sroiaf(2004)04.pdf
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 09:51am
The woman was wearing a FLAG PIN the size of a master chef's saute pan!
she always wears that. i think it's a secret communication device linked directly to the kremlin.
I think Biden's crowning achievement in the debate was not destroying her on foreign policy or on Bushonomics or on getting her to assert the "Unitary Executive" theory of the Vice Presidency or his unusual tolerace for her foolishness.
he was excellent. patient. calm.
His crowning achievement was in being more folksy and personable than she is. I'm definitely biased but all the "doggone its" and "fer sures" and "Washington answers" were no match for Biden's story about his dad looking for work in Wilmington and leaving him with his mom in Scranton.
that <i>was</i> good.
"Champ". Perfect.
i kinda cringed. but that wasn't for me. i imagined he'd used that one before. but it did seem sincere.
That's what nice fathers call their sons. It had the absolute ring of truth. My father called me "grandote" and "viejito" and "asesino" and all kinds of Russian and Yiddish terms of endearment, DOGGONE IT!
i call my son "gordito" (he's thin), "gόero" (he's actually kinda copper coloured) and "jarocho" (he was born in veracruz)...... my dad called me "********" (no nicks but he does play a mean banjo!)
Disculpame, brother. No eres canson ni mucho menos. Me gusta tu forma de escribir y pensar!
no hay de tos, gόey (no hay cuidado, amigo). el sentimiento es mϊtuo....
Ready for hockey season? Montreal is really only one good forward away from being the best team in the conference. Leafs, mediocre.
plus ηa change...... soy futbolista de hueso colorado. and basketball. sometimes american "foot"ball.
שָׁלוֹם
Posted by DexterManley
Posted by frosty zoom at 10/03/2008 @ 09:54am
"The first para is your opinion and I don't share it but having seen Palin in full flight in the Biden debate my suggestion is that she perhaps thought, as many of us did that Couric's questions didn't really deserve a serious answer."
So the question of being able to name one economic reform that McCain had gotten behind didn't deserve an answer?
So she has to be a lawyer to remember Brown v. Board of Education?
So has to be a policy wonk to name one newspaper?
"Having followed the EC position it seems to me that Michigan was never likely to be a GOP pickup (Dem 92,96,00 &04) and money spent there would be a waste."
Except that he had been campaigning there. It's rather clear that he had hoped that it could be a GOP pickup
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 10:01am
As one commentator said later, "they must be tearing their hair out."---Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/03/2008 @ 09:39am
What commentator was that and on what network?
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 10:11am
I was interested to hear what she thought her "Achilles heel" was. However, she didn't answer that question and I know realize that she probably doesn't know who Achilles was.
Posted by randidliyo at 10/03/2008 @ 10:14am
Hey Pogge, when are you going to run for office? You are one of the very few who can express him/herself intelligently on this site. You're the only one whose statements I consistently agree with. And you make them without insulting the other side, which I hope allows them to read it and perhaps even learn something. We've got to stop talking/writing in sound bites we overhear on FOX or the Daily Show. This country will only change when we become able to listen to intelligent, rational arguments and realize when we are wrong.
Honestly, anyone watching that debate last night knows that Biden is qualified to be president, let-alone vice-president. Sarah Palin might have the intelligence, presence and ability to think on her feet that qualify her to be a mayor in, or even Governor of Alaska, but she's not ready for the national stage. Maybe some day she will be, but I doubt it. I suspect her national aspirations are over when they lose this election.
Posted by sbenasso at 10/03/2008 @ 10:24am
jayne-I,mostly,watched the baseball playoffs since I love baseball and would rather spend the evening in the emergency room with a severed appendage than to watch two politicians speak for an hour and a half.And that's coming from someone who has a severed appendage.
Posted by i'm nobody at 10/03/2008 @ 10:31am
In addition, I couldn't agree more with HoosierGal. Palin is really the most qualified woman candidate the Republicans could find? That, in and of itself, ought to convince you not to vote for McCain. What an insult to the truly intelligent, qualified Republican women out there. Did anyone else think the Governor of Hawaii made Palin look inexperienced by comparison? I'm glad they didn't choose her.
The other point that REALLY needs to be considered has also been mentioned above . We've had the reformed alcoholic, good 'ol boy, fraternity member, C- student as president for the last 7 years. Do we really need another one? (I'm pretty sure McCain barely graduated from the military academy.) Can't we have a president for a change who has been an over-achiever his entire life? We really should want more for ourselves in our national leader.
Posted by sbenasso at 10/03/2008 @ 10:38am
At this point...
The best ticket would have been:
BIDEN/CLINTON
as it is
NADER/GONZALES '08
Posted by bleedingheart at 10/03/2008 @ 10:45am
lvli-Palin "grand-slam won"?? NOT!! Which "average " Americans did she identify with? The ones who were drinking six packs while watching the debate, obviously. The rest of us were shcocked by her total lack of ability to even identify what the questions were, let alone answer them. However I am really angry at Gwen Ifill for not following up on the "more power for the VP" statement. Apparently Palin has NO IDEA WHATSOEVER that the VP's powers are defined by the constitution-so she is going to put forth a constitutional amendment on this subject? I was surprised that Biden didn't jump on this obvious lack of knowledge on her part. Or maybe she just thinks that because Bush let Cheney act as shadow president it has become codifed into law??!! It became very clear that Ms. Palin is completely and absolutely unfit for office by the end of the debate-any office, including the one she now holds. When she is run back to AK on a rail I hope the citizens will start thinking about a recall. Another good point that was completely ignored by Palin and the moderator, thatBiden was so coorect about-McCain Palin has absolutely NO PLAN for any type of action after being elected. If you go to MCCain's site, there is not a bit of information about how he intends to govern, what ideas he has for the future, etc. Obama has the courage of his convictions, and has laid out a very difinitive policy, which Biden correctly pointed out. How can any rational person not see the difference between these 2 candidates? McCain/Palin is an empty slate, waiting for the lobbyists who control his campaign to write his policies for him once he is in office. Palin will be reduced to insignificance if he wins, because she will have nothing further to contribute after the far right votes.
Posted by oldintel at 10/03/2008 @ 10:58am
Posted by bleedingheart at 10/03/2008 @ 10:45am
bleeding is a GOP poser, not a Naderite.
Posted by Maskdelta at 10/03/2008 @ 12:05pm
Posted by brunowe at 10/03/2008 @ 10:01am
B, Underlying my rationale for Palin probably not taking Couric's questions seriously is the reality that bloggers like you and me and the rest of us here probably know more about every useless subject under the sun simply because we are internet obsessives. But our "real" lives are lived in the context of our particular academic discipline(s) or training. Palin's I suggest in the context of running a state and potentially the VPs office. Palin then is an "executive" and not a lawyer.
(I'm sure I get up my doctor's nose when I explain to her how my piriformis syndrome (what's that she asks?) should be treated or query whether she has made the right diagnosis of my sciatica. Blame the Internet for that).
Perhaps you learn about various important legal cases in civics classes, but I asked that question of myself and about the only case I can think of is the High Court of Australia Mabo case. (because it appears regularly in our news media) in which native title was granted to Aborigines who could prove historic links to parts of Australia. However beyond that I know nothing of the content of the legislation. I'm vaguely aware of other cases but having no interest in that aspect of the law thus have never bothered to google up any legislation.
Palin must of course, as governor of Alaska, been more than aware of Supreme Court rulings, particularly as they intersect with developing Alaska's natural resources. And she knows the name, at least, of Roe and Wade. I'm sure she could have reeled off the names of lots of cases if she tried but heck what a stupid way to introduce yourself to the public. Joe Biden, whose academic record is more abysmal than McCain's, may have facts but has little capacity to join the dots.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 8:05pm
" I'm sure she could have reeled off the names of lots of cases if she tried but heck what a stupid way to introduce yourself to the public. Joe Biden, whose academic record is more abysmal than McCain's, may have facts but has little capacity to join the dots.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/03/2008 @ 8:05pm | ignore this person | warn this person "
It's easy to assume that, but given her moose in the headlights look on other questions, it's not a safe assumption.
Posted by brunowe at 10/04/2008 @ 12:17am
1000000 FACTS later, the FACTS ARE THESE:
RedRiver SooHAPPY 2HAPPY fukUlibruls HelenDAO librulfreaks libzRfreaks libzsuck libzsuk lrjones4 mihnea Rio Bravo & LV
1- are happy with Palin
2-and prefer McCain to Obama....
Posted by winyahn at 10/04/2008 @ 12:54am
Posted by brunowe at 10/04/2008 @ 12:17am
I may have felt some empathy for that position B had I not seen how competent a debater and how brilliant a communicator she is in that debate.
It was there for all to see and I'm sure deep down the anti-GOP forces who, by their attempts to discredit her, never accepted their "official" negative assessment from day one.
It has occurred to me and should to you and other reasonably intellectually well equipped observers that there is a tremendous disconnect between the Left's and the Dem supporter's caricature of her as a bit of a dimwit and the tremendous amount of negative media they have arrayed against her. That should tell us that they are terrified of her real and spontaneous appeal to a large demographic. (I don't think that 70 million tuned in to watch Joe Biden).
Apart from the fact that it doesn't say much about the character or integrity of all those "Salem trial" Americans that would so viciously attack a poor "half witted", "religiously naive woman", one can only draw the conclusion that they are fearful of her political skills and her potential to win this election for McCain.
Mine was an attempt to show that this woman was not interested in the trivialities of a Couric . Here is how she responds to Couric and others:
Palin told FOX News on Friday that she reads the same newspapers and magazines as everyone else, "including The New York Times and The Wall Street Journal and The Economist."
She said she "shouldn't have been so flippant" on the Supreme Court question. "I can cite a lot of cases that I absolutely disagree with the Supreme Court on."
She cited the June decision that child rapists cannot be executed, ......etc.
Which gives some legs to my claim that she did not take Couric too seriously.
Posted by lrjones4 at 10/04/2008 @ 01:50am
Instead of making a "knee jerk" response to the debate as so many of you news people and commentaters did, I've given it several days to process. I don't believe either of the vp candidates proved one way or the other if he or she was qualified to be president. Which could be a mute point anyway as they are not running for the position and may never have the opportunity to fill it. I think that Ms. Palin while keeping the Republican message in front of the watching voters didn't do more than that. And for Mr. Biden, his weak attempt to "connect" with the average american by slipping in his wife and daugher's passing didn't make the connection but may have earned him some sympathy cause his pain was real. I don't think either of them proved more than that they don't want the other guy to win.
Posted by kalee570 at 10/05/2008 @ 9:07pm
Instead of making a "knee jerk" response to the debate as so many of you news people and commentaters did, I've given it several days to process. I don't believe either of the vp candidates proved one way or the other if he or she was qualified to be president. Which could be a mute point anyway as they are not running for the position and may never have the opportunity to fill it. I think that Ms. Palin while keeping the Republican message in front of the watching voters didn't do more than that. And for Mr. Biden, his weak attempt to "connect" with the average american by slipping in his wife and daugher's passing didn't make the connection but may have earned him some sympathy cause his pain was real. I don't think either of them proved more than that they don't want the other guy to win.
Posted by kalee570 at 10/05/2008 @ 9:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Hey Kalee. I can see why you'd support Palin. You probably share a lot of "mute" points with her.
Posted by sbenasso at 10/06/2008 @ 11:02am