A Gotcha Debate

We're into the 21st debate. We've been through fifteen months of this primary calendar or, as ABC's Charles Gibson put it in introducing what may well be the last....we're into "round 15."

These boys love their sports metaphors.

But tonight it's not those sports metaphors that have me throwing my Subway sandwich at the TV. It's the relentless stream of "gotcha" questions that ABC's top news commentators pose that have me angry, frustrated and, yes, bitter. Whether it's George Stephanopolous pushing Obama and Clinton to make a "No New Taxes" pledge....(George--please reconnect with your inner self: the intelligent, humane guy who did good battle with Alan Greenspan and Bob Rubin in trying to stop them from putting profits before people)...Or Gibson making the leap of equating electability with Obama's decision not to wear a flag pin? (Patriotism, as Obama explained, slowly, carefully, means ensuring that we take care of veterans who've served their country and done real patriotic duty.) These kinds of questions foreclose room for a full, real and honest debate about this country's future, and its politics and policies at home and abroad.

Barack Obama put it well when he spoke of how the two anchors of this evening's debate (and so much of our elitist media & punditocracy) seem interested mainly in "manufactured issues"-- Jeremiah Wright, dodging bullets in Tuzla, flag lapel pins and Bill Ayers-- a major reason so many decent and generous Americans tune out this media.

"Pain trickles up" is how Obama tonight described John McCain's economic policies. That smart riff brought pain to Charles Gibson's face. In a previous debate, Gibson, who must make a few million a year, made a class gaffe when he estimated that professors in a small New Hampshire college made close to $200,000. Laughter filled the hall that night. Americans of Main Street got a glimpse into a media that has far more friends on Wall Street.

Tonight, Gibson seemed shocked when the two candidates spoke of raising taxes on the very richest in this country. He seemed far more concerned about the Democratic candidates' proposal to raise the capital gains tax--and what he claimed would be the lost revenue-- than the fact, as the New York Times's Steven Greenhouse reports in his new must-read book, The Big Squeeze, that "since 1979, hourly earnings for 80 percent of American workers have risen by just 1, after inflation...[at a time when]the nation's economic pie is growing, but corporations by and large have not given their workers a bigger piece"

A one percent raise in almost thirty years? Still not bitter?

Comments (244)

1. Should anyone be surprised that the bards of ABC would do an awful job moderating the "debate"?

   This is the same network that confuses George Will for an intellectual and holds someone like Cokie Roberts up as a thoughtful journalist.

   Posted by KSP556 at 04/16/2008 @ 9:42pm

2. you gotta love america......

   a presidential commercial with COMMERCIALS......

   hey look, it's a commercial for MITT ROMNEY'S STAPLES BIZNIZ SUPPLIES.....

   Posted by frosted zoom at 04/16/2008 @ 9:44pm

3. it's true,

   the lamest of lame questions........

   wolf: "hands up america if you think these questions are patheticker than mine".

   Posted by frosted zoom at 04/16/2008 @ 9:47pm

4. Obama is an empty suit.

   Posted by ACook at 04/16/2008 @ 9:52pm

5. "Tonight Gibson seemed shocked when the two candidates spoke of raising taxes..."

   Maybe because he knows that such talk LOSES elections for Democrats, when the ONLY people who vote for them after such promises....are people like Ms vanden Heuvel.

   And, despite what she might think, there AREN'T a "lot" of people like her.

   Posted by Mask at 04/16/2008 @ 9:58pm

6. Hillary: we don't know enough about darkie

   Posted by winyahn at 04/16/2008 @ 10:05pm

7. "Yes, yes, yes." That will be the headline on many blogs and newspapers. Watch and see.

   From the little bit I saw, both candidates did well again.

   Posted by FritztheCat at 04/16/2008 @ 10:14pm

8. Dear Ms. Vanden Heuvel: Thank you, thank you, dear lady. I'm still cleaning the pepperoni pizza off of my television.

   Posted by julien38 at 04/16/2008 @ 10:14pm

9. The real story here, the backlash against ABC, their webpage, which had a running comments section was nearly nothing but negative comments, from Republicans and Democrats, it was wall to wall disgust with the tone, topics and tenor of this debate. This debate was an utter sham. Hillary in a couple of the debates had a sort of gang-up and I guess it was Obama's turn. And why was George Stephanopolous even a moderator? He SERVED in the Clinton administration, that to me, might just be a conflict of interest.

   Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 10:15pm

10. "Given the historically poor quality of the questions tonight, I'm not going to put up the standard post-debate poll about who won. The answer is that democracy and the American people lost. I suppose if ABC sold some ads, they'll feel like they won."

    As seen on the DailyKos

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 10:17pm

11. There is also a campaign drive going on to show the lack of support for this sort of debate. Kos and the Abc site have many many people pledging money to the Obama camp. I'm just now getting into the rest of the blog world, but I would guess there is a similar reaction.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 10:20pm

12. That was the worst, most pathetic excuse for a debate I've ever seen. I don't know what was worse, the anti-Obama crusade the "moderators" set out on from the beginning, accusing him of everything from being an elitist, to hating America, to being in bed with terrorists, or the constant stream of right wing talking points flying from ABC in a pathetic attempt to try to catch them in some good "liberal" sound bites that McCain could use against them in the general (pledges and whatnot). It was despicable. I felt like I was watching Fox News. I'm contacting ABC to express my extreme displeasure, as I hope all progressives will, because that was bullshit.

    Posted by bridoc at 04/16/2008 @ 10:29pm

13. Posted by BRIDOC 04/16/2008 @ 10:29pm

    qfmft (quoted for mo-fucking truth)

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 10:32pm

14. RIO BRAVO 04/16/2008 @ 10:23pm ...

    Yeah, right... Bravado... and Mitt Romney was the candidate most sympathetic to working class values.

    Posted by ttr at 04/16/2008 @ 10:33pm

15. ABC, now let's see ... that's the ABC owned by ... Disney.

    Disney, the cartoon people.

    So what can we expect, a substantive adult debate via Disney?

    Posted by sloper at 04/16/2008 @ 10:33pm

16. Asinine Bullshit Crappifier

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/16/2008 @ 10:35pm

17. I used to think Republican operative and Karl Rove mentor Lee Atwater had died in 1991, after a nasty career of Republican race baiting, culture wars, dirty tricks, and a illness-induced conversion to Catholicism and public repentance for his dirty and divisive politics. I was wrong. Lee Atwater apparently works for ABC News in devising bullshit questions to ask Democratic Presidential candidates.

    The questioning in tonight's debate----mostly straight out of 1988--was an abomination. Gun control. 60's radicalism. Inflammatory black pastors. Respecting or disrespecting the flag. Taxes. Being out of touch with the military. Affirmative Action.

    I'll bet if they had more time, ABC anchors Charles Gibson and George Stephanopolus would probably have gotten around to asking Obama and Clinton about Willie Horton and Piss Christ.

    In case you were wondering, as well as I can recollect, Gibson and Stephanopolus were too concerned with "bitter" and flag pins and superexcellentness of cutting the capital gains tax to ever get around asking Obama and Clinton questions about any of the following subjects:

    The financial crisis The collapse of housing values in the US and around the world Afghanistan Health care Torture The declining value of the US Dollar Education Trade Pakistan Energy Immigration The decline of American manufacturing The Supreme Court The burgeoning world food crisis. Global warming China The attacks on organized labor and the working class Terrorism and al Qaeda Civil liberties and constraints on government surveillance

    For those who think it's great that Hillary Clinton won't drop out, even though there's no way she can win the nomination and her only hope is some bizarre destruction of Barack Obama between now and the convention, ponder the effects of tonight's debate. The questions asked were not the kinds of questions Democratic primary voters care about. But they are the "gotcha" kinds of questions Republicans try to spring on Democrats in general elections.

    I'm not afraid of those questions. I think Obama did fine tonight. Generally Clinton has performed best in debates, but as we first saw in the Texas debate, Obama appears to perform better one-on-one. I especially liked how he refused to get lured in to Charles Gibson's conservative frames, and I like how he dismissed many of Clinton's attacks on him as avoiding the substantive issues and hypocritical, as when he pointed out that Bill Clinton pardoned members of the Weather Underground.

    But I don't want Hillary Clinton on the stage with him while he fends off bullshit like what was tossed at him tonight. I want him to be able to pivot around and use the questions--accusations in most cases--against John McCain. I want John McCain to have to fend off Obama's counterpunches, not a Democratic Senator from New York.

    There's more to say about the performance of Obama and Clinton. And I'm sure some will say, "who cares about the delegate count, or the polls that show voters don't trust her, or that she fares worse against McCain, or that there's no way short of coup by superdelegates that she can become the nominee." But first, share your thoughts with ABC about their performance by clicking here.

    Again Kos. Btw that link is: http://abcnews.go.com/Site/page?id=3271346&cat=ABC%20News%20Specials

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 10:37pm

18. In the socialist utopia that KVH dreams about the candidates would only debate what was the absolute best way to stick it to the rich and disarm America---anything else would be outlawed.

    Posted by Len Mosse at 04/16/2008 @ 10:39pm

19. The military-industrial-corporate-media complex is baring its fangs more and more as the Inevitability mantel slips away...

    Posted by winyahn at 04/16/2008 @ 10:40pm

20. "since 1979, hourly earnings for 80 percent of American workers have risen by just 1, after inflation...[at a time when]the nation's economic pie is growing, but corporations by and large have not given their workers a bigger piece"

    Does that include the MASSIVE increases in benefit spending?

    Posted by usc1 at 04/16/2008 @ 10:46pm

21. My guess is...no.

    Posted by usc1 at 04/16/2008 @ 10:47pm

22. What the heck does wearing a flag lapel pin have to do with patriotism?

    I have yet to find a pin that doesn't have "made in (somewhere in other than the US)" stamped on the back of it.

    I'd rather learn how we're going to come up with a workable system for health insurance that's also affordable, not dwell on who used the word "bitter" in a sentence.

    Posted by wearyvoter at 04/16/2008 @ 10:57pm

23. RIO BRAVO 04/16/2008 @ 10:44pm

    No... I don't. The manufacturing base, the retooling of American industry... tightening NAFTA.

    I don't think working class Americans are 'the enemy'... (do you?)... I think working class Americans need jobs we can be proud of, day in and day out. And, what's more... wealthy Americans will reap 'even more' benefits if we relocate prosperous industry back onto American soil. Pride trickles up too... and beats 'trickle up' pain by all accounts.

    Posted by ttr at 04/16/2008 @ 11:31pm

24. HAPPY2 04/16/2008 @ 11:32pm...

    So... which McCain do you prefer... the pre 2006 version, or the 'GWB sanctioned' 2008 GOP candidate version?

    Posted by ttr at 04/16/2008 @ 11:43pm

25. Posted by HAPPY2 04/16/2008 @ 11:32pm

    Somehow I feel if the candidates channeled the abilities of Churchill, Lincoln, Jefferson, Socrates, etc etc... that you would still feel they fell short. Which is to say that your opinion was more than likely formed even before the debate was aired. Where does that leave you? Liking tacos.

    The troll bridge is ------> there is a long list of applicants for head troll, so get your resume in quickly!

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 11:44pm

26. In the socialist utopia that KVH dreams about the candidates would only debate what was the absolute best way to stick it to the rich and disarm America

    can any reasonable person respond to this?

    then come up with one that DOES NOT fund and cover with taxpayer money killing babies by abortion, condoning homosexual marriage by giving them family health benefits, and treat subsidizing sexual promiscuity as being "inevitable", and other than the leftwingnuts might listen!

    or this?

    Alibama is the emptiest suit ever witnessed running for president

    what about this one?

    en lieu of ABC's handling of this "debate," it's no wonder there are so many incredibly ignorant americans who share the above opinions.

    that people actually believe that obama and clinton are "socialists" is simply hilarious. absurd. i can't even put into words how ridiculous is the notion that obama and clinton, two moderate democrats (the equivalent of right wingers in europe and canada), are "socialists," or in bill kristol's mind, "marxists"!

    marxist?!?! obama?! unbelievable. it simply defies all rational though.

    Posted by darladoon at 04/16/2008 @ 11:45pm

27. I have a hard time believing you would eat at subway. for two diametrically opposed reasons: one, you seem to be well off enough to have better options. ;P two, you are a writer for the nation! subway is a huge crappy corporation, right? geez, way to bum a lefty out...

    (just tossing a playful elbow at your admission). ;P

    Posted by masamatt at 04/16/2008 @ 11:47pm

28. Tough on Obama? About time I say. What goes around, comes around. Hillary won but not by much.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/16/2008 @ 11:47pm

    The Republican party won. And Fox news since ABC is now the new hated media outlet. This was embarassing. Okay new rule folks in the media: If you are going to ask Obama about his flag pin, you better be wearing one yourself.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 11:50pm

29. if obama is an "empty suit," then what is mccain? seriously?

    furthermore, what is bush?

    Posted by darladoon at 04/16/2008 @ 11:51pm

30. Voice your complaint, many have even been sent to Snuffleupagus' voicemail. (212) 456-7777

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 11:51pm

31. rio bravo, can you answer me one question?

    if obama is an empty suit, then what is mccain?

    Posted by darladoon at 04/16/2008 @ 11:52pm

32. Darla, that aforementioned head troll job, Rio is a final candidate for that position. Expecting to get something substantive from some of these folks is like getting blood from a stone. Ignore them, literally, it will help your blood pressure.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 11:55pm

33. Also from MyDD, which is a pro-Hillary blog:

    I feel like taking a shower after that debate. It was tabloid hour on ABC, and certainly Obama did get the bulk of the more disgusting questions.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/16/2008 @ 11:56pm

34. As far as 'the debate' went...

    Obama was ushered cautiously into the Coliseum... for the 'entertainment' of the lions.

    Clinton seemed like one of them.

    T.V. seems so outdated at times like these...

    Posted by ttr at 04/16/2008 @ 11:56pm

35. HAPPY2 04/16/2008 @ 11:48pm...

    Great answer! Ten points on the honesty meter...

    Posted by ttr at 04/16/2008 @ 11:58pm

36. "And why was George Stephanopolous even a moderator? He SERVED in the Clinton administration, that to me, might just be a conflict of interest."

    That is an excellent point, however, are you sure you want to characterize George Stephanopolous has having "served" in the Clinton administration? There was very little serving going on in that administration, other than for self-service, of course. Let's just say he was part of that Administration.

    Anyone But McCain!

    Posted by Kevin_OKeeffe at 04/17/2008 @ 12:01am

37. As much as you Obama supporters want the issues on tonight's debate reframed as manufactured issues, they are still real issues and concerns that America has with Barak Obama. Every time he got a tough question he tried to dismiss it as not important. Rev. Wright, Rezko, Farrakhan, his elitist arrogance, his "Bitter" comments, and all the rest will not go away. If he cannot handle this with Hillary now how is he gonna handle the Republicans when they throw out his weekend of cocaine partying and oral sex with Larry Sinclair in 1999 (while a state senator) or his ongoing 3 million dollar lawsuit against him and his campaign from Sinclair. Mass media has not picked up on this and Obama supporters hope it will not until after his nomination so they can use it against him in a general election.

    Obama looked frustrated, was carefully chosing his words, and did not know enough about several of the issues (Gun Control, etc...) discussed. He was quite tentative and ill at ease. I will give him credit though for using Bill Clinton's 1990's National Strategy playbook on peace and prosperity as his own. He even has Hillary's head bobbing during questioning down to a tee. Bill Clinton has rebuilt the country after a Bush disaster before and as the First First Gentleman can help with rebuilding America again. Yes it is Hillary running but do not think that a vote for Hillary will not get you the 2 for 1 as it will and we need it. I think that gives a vote for Hillary twice the value as a vote for the inexpereinced Obama.

    I like Obama but he is just not ready at all for the huge task of rebuilding our economy after the disaster that Bush has left us. The Clinton's did it in the 1990's and they can do it again. I am not so sure that Obama can.

    Posted by carlosie at 04/17/2008 @ 12:03am

38. RIO BRAVO 04/16/2008 @ 11:44pm

    O yeah... silly of me to forget the dramatic change of circumstances... the golden flush times... of the early 2000s, for working Americans... under the golden age brought about by the Republican President and Congress...

    Posted by ttr at 04/17/2008 @ 12:04am

39. "What the heck does wearing a flag lapel pin have to do with patriotism?"

    In case you hadn't noticed, a lot of people in this country are dumber than a bag of hammers, so to speak.

    Posted by Kevin_OKeeffe at 04/17/2008 @ 12:05am

40. Every time he got a tough question he tried to dismiss it as not important. Rev. Wright, Rezko, Farrakhan, his elitist arrogance, his "Bitter" comments, and all the rest will not go away

    oh yeah, "tough" questions.

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:05am

41. Well I thought they asked just the right questions. After hearing all of Obama's stammering through the answers, I've got to wonder how he deals with the real issues of the country if he's the President. "Yes we can" just doesn't work.

    Mary

    Posted by MaryF at 04/17/2008 @ 12:06am

42. Finally a fair debate. And hillary won by a landslide.

    Posted by carlosie at 04/17/2008 @ 12:07am

43. After hearing all of Obama's stammering through the answers, I've got to wonder how he deals with the real issues of the country if he's the President

    gee, no wonder you have to "wonder how he deals with the real issues," when the moderators ask such "tough" questions.....

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:07am

44. Sterotypicalification

    misunderestimated

    both bush-isms.....

    rio = shit head

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:08am

45. Oh Yeah, I forget that it was the Republican that got us into this mess. Or did you forget that too?

    Posted by carlosie at 04/17/2008 @ 12:09am

46. Posted by CARLOSIE 04/17/2008 @ 12:07am

    H.T.O.T.D.?

    Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 12:10am

47. where was the DNC? Is the party just going to let a republican like Charlie Gibson drive the debate? The DNC should be able to request the moderator. Make the corporate media conform to our rules!

    Posted by notabogy at 04/17/2008 @ 12:12am

48. As much as you Obama supporters want the issues on tonight's debate reframed as manufactured issues, they are still real issues and concerns that America has with Barak Obama. Every time he got a tough question he tried to dismiss it as not important. Rev. Wright, Rezko, Farrakhan, his elitist arrogance, his "Bitter" comments, and all the rest will not go away.

    Posted by CARLOSIE 04/17/2008 @ 12:03am

    When you lie awake at night, thinking about the Bush administration and its many many "disasters" what is the first one that springs to mind? Is it a string of clips of Rev. Wright? Is it an 8 year old Obama having some tenuous tie to a bygone terrorist organization (one where the Clinton admin dished out two pardons too)? Is it a flag pin? Is it the "snipergate" incident with Hillary? No? Didn't think so.

    I think the media is like a college student with a serious procrastination problem. The problems of the country keep piling up, and solution get further and further away, meanwhile they play Halo 3 with their bro's and waste time and energy on games while that term paper collects dust, along with the stack of Jstore articles.

    These aren't issues. The economy, jobs, social security, the environment, 4th, 5th and 14th amendment erosions, education, inflation, the weakening dollar, gas prices, trade deficits, Iraq, Afghanistan, the overtaxed military, taxes, NAFTA, China, the list goes on and on. THOSE are issues, those are things that keep me awake at night, not some fucking flag pin.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:13am

49. "I like Obama but he is just not ready at all for the huge task of rebuilding our economy after the disaster that Bush has left us. The Clinton's did it in the 1990's and they can do it again. I am not so sure that Obama can."

    Oh please! Who the President is has almost no impact on the economy. What policies did Clinton initiate that caused our economy to flourish in the mid-to-late 1990s? In the unlikely event there were any pivotal ones, they almost certainly would have still occurred under a Bush (or Dole) administration (by the same token, George H.W. Bush certainly didn't cause the recession of 1991-2; it would have happened under a President Dukakis as well). The fact is, that period would have been a boom had Bush been re-elected in '92 and/or Dole elected in '96. The President doesn't have the power to define our economy. And just as the mid-to-late 90s would have been good years irrespective of who was in the White House then, the next four years (at least) are going to be crap, no matter which of the three major candidates eventually gets elected.

    Posted by Kevin_OKeeffe at 04/17/2008 @ 12:15am

50. Posted by CARLOSIE 04/17/2008 @ 12:07am

    H.T.O.T.D.?

    Posted by BENCHREST 04/17/2008 @ 12:10am

    /hugs

    Remember we also have "Emocrats"

    http://speaklolspeak.com/page/Emocat

    May ceilingcat help us all...

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:17am

51. weill winyahn we may not know enough about darkie but we know all we need to about your views. If you hate the man because he is black fine, but please refrain from name calling. It shows the level of intelligence. Obama is way too nice, because if I was the DARKIE I WOULD HAVE EATEN HER ALIVE ABOUT HER HUSBAND MARK PENN AND HER UPCOMING TRIAL FOR FRAUD IN CALIFORNIA ON APRIL 25TH

    Posted by qjh48901 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:18am

52. I am with MaryF on this. He is not ready now, will not be ready in November, and will not be ready in January to take over as President. Hillary has over 20 years as being the Better Half of a state and national Head of State, as well as several years as a senator from NY. Obama (The Fluffmaster as we affectionately call him) has done what?

    Sorry but a vote for Obama is like a vote for Perot a few years ago. It is just a vote for disgust in our current government. A protest vote. Most Obama supporters are either too young to remember or just plain forget how good the Clinton years were. They tend to throw the Clinton baby out with the bath water thinking that the Clintons are part of the problem. I disagree strongly.

    Posted by carlosie at 04/17/2008 @ 12:18am

53. Ugh! This was only the second "debate" I managed to get through. Every question asked took for granted the same neoliberal economics that have dominated every administration since before Reagan, only taken to the extremes of the Bush administration. Neither Gibson nor Stephanopolous thought it relevant to ask about stagnant wages, concentration of wealth, pension security, health care, or even the obvious critical financial crisis threatening the economy, but were all over "no new tax increases" and the horrors of an end to the privileged taxation of dividends. Ending our occupation of Iraq was reduced to what Petraeus would think, and of course for the rest that axis of evil Iran and US persistent military presence in the region. Not any question on the corruption of lobbyists influence. Or military contractors and privatization of war. But once again plenty of time bringing up the same dreary and biased wedge questions over Wright and Farrakhan, guns, religion, flag pins, etc. Nothing asked to disturb anyone in the current administration. The uncritical acceptance infuriated me.

    Clinton plays this small politics better, I think. But she like this administration leaves me claustrophobic. She may minimize the damage, but don't see any real change in vision or role for the US. And without that Republican fundamentalism will persist to dominate any discussion and there will be another if different neocon president to follow her as Bush followed Bill. Obama seems aware of the dangers this means for us, at least a bit, but still only a minor shift. Good enough for me somewhat. Clinton isn't.

    Charlie M.

    Posted by cmsandia at 04/17/2008 @ 12:21am

54. Posted by WEARYVOTER 04/16/2008 @ 10:57pm

    put one of these on:

    http://www.gadsdenandculpeper.com/culapi.html

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:25am

55. KEVIN_OKEEFFE 04/17/2008 @ 12:15am...

    I'm not buying into any of that post.

    Presidents can and often have had powerful effects on the economy.

    Posted by ttr at 04/17/2008 @ 12:26am

56. I knew you were cynical but Mccain an empty suit?

    did i say mccain was an empty suit?

    i merely asked, "if obama is an empty suit, then what is mccain?"

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:27am

57. oh, i'm sorry. what i meant to say was, "mccan is a courageous american war hero, a real man of the poeple, salt of the earth, a christian man, who is right about everything."

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:28am

58. Barack Obama has gotten a free ride from the MSM for most of the campaign and now because ABC hits him hard you all start whining like little babie

    frank, you've been whining for months, so shut the f*ck up.

    btw, "hit hard" = "ask a bunch of stupid questions"

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:29am

59. Wow... I'm much more tired than I thought... I just answered a post that isn't even there!

    Posted by ttr at 04/17/2008 @ 12:30am

60. One is a giant, the other a neophyte. Isn't that obvious?

    "giant" = "courageous american war hero who divorced his severely disfigured ex-wife and re-married a wealthy heiress in order to rejuvenate his sagging political career"

    "neophyte" = "someone with ideas"

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:30am

61. stereotypification (ster-e-o-typ-i-fi-ca-tion) n. [Blend of stereotypical and typification.] An object that is typified into a stereotypical viewpoint.

    hey rio, go and look how you spelled it originally, then get back to me.

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:32am

62. I'm glad B.O. was asked those questions. It's the about time he's had to answer them and he bullshitted his way through as usual.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:28am

    Frank let's play a game, let's play ummm Monopoly. Okay. Now I'm going to let you be banker and also spot you a few thousand dollars. On top of that I'll also give you oh let's say four Monopolies. We play, we laugh, we fart, we throw back a few ice cold beers (btw I really like this Two-Hearted Ale). You of course win in a route, now how satisfying was that victory? My guess is it is about as hallow as Hilliary's tonight.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:33am

63. Obama was sweating and squirming tonight while Hillary was as cool as a cucumber. I almost thought it was a hit job. And watch the way to speak to be. We used to be friends remember or have you forgotten too.

    gee, do you think it's because ABC asked one irrelevant question after another?

    frank, you are blinded by your "love" for hillary....so you are not to be trusted....

    and trust me, i am no fan of any candidate.

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:33am

64. Is it only me, or did Sen. Clinton seem to have a good time sliming Sen. Obama every chance she could do so. She utterly disgusts me. I'm ashamed to admit I voted twice for her husband. He mean Rovian attacks embody everything that is wrong with politics.

    Posted by trabaris at 04/17/2008 @ 12:33am

65. marxist?!?! obama?! unbelievable. it simply defies all rational though[t].

    Posted by DARLADOON 04/16/2008 @ 11:45pm

    there lies the rub.

    72 WTVG (ABC) Entertainment Tonight The Insider Democratic Presidential Candidate Debate Men in Trees

    a sandwich of banality...

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:34am

66. Finally a fair debate. And hillary won by a landslide.

    Posted by CARLOSIE 04/17/2008 @ 12:07am

    of mud

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:35am

67. Posted by CARLOSIE 04/17/2008 @ 12:03am

    When you lie awake at night, thinking about the Bush administration and its many many "disasters" what is the first one that springs to mind?

    BY TZIM and some more letters i have trouble remembering.

    that the phone may ring?

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:37am

68. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:37am

    You owe me 50 bucks for landing on Boardwalk...:)

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:40am

69. KEVIN_OKEEFFE 04/17/2008 @ 12:15am...

    I'm not buying into any of that post.

    Presidents can and often have had powerful effects on the economy.

    Posted by TTR 04/17/2008 @ 12:26am

    me, neither.

    clinton pushed the repeal of glass-steagall...

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:42am

70. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:37am

    That's not a smile Frank, it's a grimace from trying to choke down a bud.

    Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 12:43am

71. Yeah, well, everything except the fart part. There's nothing funnier or more substantial than a good robust beer fart. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:35am

    And no burp is more satisfying than a bacon burp.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:45am

72. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:45am

    You're in a good mood tonight. I like it!

    Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 12:47am

73. hey frank, watch this:

    http://www.youtube.com/watchv=exsmFDYyK4U&eurl=http://andrewsullivan.the atlantic.com/the_daily_dish/2008/04/no-one-left-to.html

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:48am

74. But I do pretty much think I know what I'm talking about

    you might, but not with respect to your crush on hillary.

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:54am

75. My guess is it is about as hallow as Hilliary's tonight.

    Posted by TZIMISCE 04/17/2008 @ 12:33am

    hallow |ˈhalō|

    verb [ trans. ]

    honor as holy : the Ganges is hallowed as a sacred, cleansing river | [as adj. ] ( hallowed) hallowed ground.

    • formal make holy; consecrate.

    • [as adj. ] ( hallowed) greatly revered or respected : in keeping with a hallowed family tradition.

    noun archaic

    a saint or holy person.

    ORIGIN Old English hālgian (verb), hālga (noun), of Germanic origin; related to Dutch and German heiligen, also to holy .

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:55am

76. egad!

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 12:55am

77. How many books have you read on her life, the none biased ones that is?

    do i have to read books about someone who voted for iraq, nafta, patriot act?

    Posted by darladoon at 04/17/2008 @ 12:56am

78. FROSTED ZOOM 04/17/2008 @ 12:42am

    Now there's a gem... and I'll bet it puts Krugman into a bind these days...

    Posted by ttr at 04/17/2008 @ 12:58am

79. Snobama supporters are a bunch of cry babies, this is the debate we should have had months ago and we wouldn't be in this terrible mess of neither candidate having enough delegates to win. When things don't go Snobama's way they cry not fair, well welcome to the world of politics, its tough and when you stumble over your own lies, you lose. Snobama just showed us how to lose the white house.

    Posted by anee at 04/17/2008 @ 12:58am

80. Posted by FROSTED ZOOM 04/17/2008 @ 12:55am |

    Yeah i realized that shortly after posting, my kingdom for an edit function.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 12:58am

81. Snobama Posted by ANEE 04/17/2008 @ 12:58am

    Oh I see what you did there, snob and obama, man that is clever.

    So is it snobby like sipping the bubbly at the convention in 2004, with your stanford grad daughter? Oh how you wouldn't just stand by your man. Or or wait wait you didn't just stay at home baking cookies. Yeap clever.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:01am

82. skullduggerally clinton.

    so there!

    Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 01:04am

83. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:02am

    I know you. I've read almost every post you've ever written.

    Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 01:04am

84. ABC, "The All Clinton Network" is awful. Just having Geroge S as a moderator was enough to make anyone puke and render the broadcast a fluke! Look, listen and realize this; "Witchery" and Billy Big Boy Cigar (smoke it) Clinton are disgraceful and should never ever be allowed to make this nation appear as sluts, liars, thieves and greedfull people again.

    Yup, I agree, Mr.obama is definitely not all that I want him to be but the "silly season" insults he has endured have forced me to dislike the Clintons more and more. I will never, ever, under any circumstance vote to that -itch! She's hateful and people know it so folk like O'Riley, Limbaugh and especially Hanity as far as I am concerned are all (as that Wright guy put it); stuck on stupid! Perhaps Wright did say some dumb things but you know, in reality...he's right, people like Hannity are truly stuck on "stupid." Honestly, I look at them just to laugh at the idiotic looks on their faces when night after of bashing, preaching, begging and pleading against Mr. Obama, they are no further than where they were in terms of slowing this guy down when they started. Little wonder they lok and sound like SNL skits...they are jokes!

    Quit Witchery, your face like those mentioned above surely indicates that "you are stuck on stupid too!"

    JayJay

    PS: I got a new broom from Wal-mart today, does anyone have a mailing address for Ms. Clinton?

    Posted by jayjay at 04/17/2008 @ 01:06am

85. Some women are content to stay home and bake cookies, others have more ambition and want to make a difference. If you can respect stay at home moms, why can't you respect women who want to lead?

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:09am

    Oh I have no problem with either, it's just that one could see a Clinton's cookie comment as being...elitist?

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:13am

86. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:10am

    I've never posted before.(Better to remain silent and be thought an idiot...)Lurking, as Mask sometimes likes to call it. I always enjoyed just reading. I've smiled a thousand times at the exchanges, and just recently got the guts to join in.

    Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 01:15am

87. Btw the Abc phone lines are tied up with comments and their online feedback is up to 9000 comments, and you would be hard pressed to find a favorable comment.

    I think Hillary could have done her self a HUGE favor by defending Obama from some of these attacks (maybe just saying, "can we get to the real issues?") instead of twisting the knife.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:16am

88. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/04/16/ abc-hosts-heckled-after-d_n_97124.html

    The good people of Pennsylvania that attended thought something was rotten in the state of Denmark too.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:25am

89. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:23am

    Essentially the point is to not throw rocks when your house is made of glass. I personally don't give a shit about whether or not she, obama or mccain is an elitist. But if you are going to manufacture the issue, then be prepared for the cries of hypocrisy.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:26am

90. Yeah, I hear the Obama people are really pissed off tonight. The Clinton people are getting a good night's sleep.

    Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:26am

    In the end I just wish we would go to a Lincoln Douglas style debate. Maybe just a conversation where they talk and occasionally a moderator would ask them to move onto a new topic after like 10 minutes.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 01:30am

91. If anybody is willing to put together a petition that calls for the resignations of Chares Gibson and George Stephanopoulos, I will be more than happy to sign.

    Posted by dockyhock1 at 04/17/2008 @ 01:51am

92. You snobama maniacs are silly, cry babies. snobama got caught in all his lies, rev. i disown him oops I mean disown his words, oops the Ayers thing yeah well... then the gun signature, they have his signature on the questionaire its all over the web, dummies. Stop being crybabies and wimps and blame snobama not the moderators they just ask the questions that America wants answered. We're tired of snobama telling us how we feel, angry, bitter, frustrated, yeah at him for he is going to lose us the white house.

    Posted by anee at 04/17/2008 @ 02:04am

93. Posted by ANEE 04/17/2008 @ 02:04am

    H.T.O.T.D.

    Please think of the children before you post.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 02:06am

94. So many questions left unasked. Would Hillary support Batboy for Veep? Does Barack Obama have a secret Elvis artifact? Does Bigfoot pose a threat to our national security? Is John McCain a pill-stealing robot? Is there a possibility that legions of undead will overtake us all? Boxers or Briefs? Who will be out troll-in-chief in charge of our bridge to nowhere?

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 02:11am

95. Cry me a river. Katrina, et al, have seen their savior crumble under questioning that you find irrelevant, but not irrelevant to the so called "Reagan Democrats." When are you going to face reality?

    Katrina, et al, is still pondering how our party lost the 2000 election; where is your outrage regarding Michigan and Florida? Oops, your chosen candidate is leading without those states, so geez, punish them, and keep his lead intact. The whole 2000 hanging chad outrage, that you, Katrina, perputrated, is moot now. When O loses the general, as Gore and Kerry did, you will be left scratching your head.

    As a woman, I am offended how you have villified Hillary during this election; you supported her for how many years. You, and your magazine do a disservice to the Democratic party. Please do not opine about your "freedom" to vote for whomever you wish. You are a hypocrite; a sell-out.

    Guess that you are outraged about this evening's debate. No outrage, Obama was actually questioned and challenged on issues that you, personally find irrelevant. Judging from the blogs and comments this evening, Obamabots are angry with the questioners, and not the candidate, who was unable to articulate an eloquent response. Oops, no teleprompter this evening.

    Posted by sydney77 at 04/17/2008 @ 02:16am

96. Cry me a river. Katrina, et al, have seen their savior crumble under questioning that you find irrelevant, but not irrelevant to the so called "Reagan Democrats." When are you going to face reality?

    Posted by SYDNEY77 04/17/2008 @ 02:16am

    Okay so if I were to approach a Reagan Democrat and ask them, "What are the top three issues in America today?" Would they say, "American flag pins, whether or not I'm bitter and clingy, and Snipergate?"

    Imagine yourself, on a stage, a stage where the candidates for the highest office in the land are currently seated. You can ask any question, and do you ask questions about flag pins, long forgotten terrorists organizations, snipers in Bosnia, or elitism?

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 02:23am

97. Seriously, you guys make this way too easy. At least Frank sometimes has a point, there are a few other Clinton supporters that can manage a point that has some validity to it. But mostly we see a steady drumbeat of, "Obamabots, cultists, Snobama, and Osama (from a daring few)." Did KVH or any other Nation contributor call her Billery or any other derogatory term? There are a few here (Obama camp) that descend into name calling, but how dare any of you have the audacity to call us children, ignorant or uniformed when you demean us and call us robots or cultist? You honestly want anything you say to be taken seriously and you say that? No, you really don't expect to be taken seriously, you just want to get a rise out of someone, which is.... trolling.

    Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 02:31am

98. poor Obama is getting a little taste of what Clinton has been geting all along from the media and his supporters don't like it. No matter what Obama says or does or what shady person he knows makes a difference to you. But now when it comes to Clinton she is the mean nasty liar. But Obama he is the Rev. Wright golden boy who feels the same that Wright does and the media darling and a big fat liar to boot.

    Oh I know i'm going to be eat alive for saying all this but who cares. Obama meant just what he said about small town Americans. I don't care how you spin it or how he trys to spin it he said what he did because thats how he feels about it. I'm from a small town and yes I go to church not because i'm "Bitter" I go for the same reason everyone else goes. Yes I own guns and no I don't "Cling " to them because I'm "Bitter" I have them because I like to go hunting and I have them for protection. I also don't have a problem with people that are not like me. My town has alot of people of different race and we are all like family. Oh by the way I am African American.

    I think it is about time that the media starts going after Obama he has gotten a pass far to long. Obama is mad because the media turned on him.If you don't want all your shady friends and the way you really feel about people to come out when your running for office or the White House then you should watch who you keep company with and watch what you say and to whom.

    Posted by veryfunny at 04/17/2008 @ 02:54am

99. Too soft for too long? Well, why not just tell the guy to sit down and that he's not mature and wait for his turn. ObamaCaca is all disaster. The Americans are naive bso this time they will vote for saanother disaster named McCain.

    ------------

    Clinton Uses Sharp Attacks in Tense Debate Sign In to E-Mail or Save This Print Single Page Reprints Share DiggFacebookMixxYahoo! BuzzPermalinkBy ADAM NAGOURNEY and JEFF ZELENY Published: April 17, 2008 PHILADELPHIA -- Senator Barack Obama found himself consistently on the defensive as he and Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton met Wednesday night in a tense debate that left him parrying questions and criticism on issues including values, patriotism and his association with onetime radicals from the 1960s.

    Posted by HelenDAO at 04/17/2008 @ 02:54am

100. That was the saddest excuse for a debate I have ever seen. I will boycott Disney and its subsidiaries and it advertisers.

     Posted by Jim B at 04/17/2008 @ 03:02am

101. Bush and Climarte Chage? Another biggwst fairy tale? Well, nowadays who needs a fairy tale.

     -----------

     Bush unveils climate change policy By: Martin Kady II April 16, 2008 08:41 PM EST

     If there's one political winner in President Bush's relatively modest rollout Wednesday of global warming principles, it may be John McCain.

     The losers: skeptical conservatives who think global warming is overblown and say the government should stay out of environmental mandates.

     Posted by HelenDAO at 04/17/2008 @ 03:03am

102. It's funny to hear hillary supporters say she won. Won what? If you think that this will somehow lead to a victory for "Screw em Annie" you had better do another shot of Canadian whiskey because you are going to need it.

     Posted by Jim B at 04/17/2008 @ 03:05am

103. Populists? But of wrong kind of populism. John Edwards would do better.

     -----------

     Michelle Obama Rejects Elitist Characterization Wednesday, April 16, 2008 1:59 PM

     EVANSVILLE, Ind. -- Michelle Obama said Wednesday she is a product of a working-class background and rejected characterizations of she and her husband as elitist.

     Posted by HelenDAO at 04/17/2008 @ 03:11am

104. This was not a debate. It simply was not it was like a 60 minutes interrogation for the first hour with a little debate at the end. Both candidates were unfairly attacked and looked bad in the early part of the debate. Obama was on the defensive but Clinton looked very unpresidential trying to pile on with the moderators.

     Clinton made two huge errors

     First she made a major gaffe, looked naive and like a warmonger when she said that she would defend other middle eastern countries with the use of massive force along with Israel. We have a special relationship with Israel and we should go to their defense when necessary but she was trying to make new aggressive policy by saying she would use massive force to defend countries like Saudi Arabia. She downright reminded me of Bush.

     Second she looked arrogant when she said she would not alter her withdraw plan after talking to the generals. She sounded very condescending towards the generals. Obama answered the question like a C-in-C who described the fact that the president defines the mission and but let the generals decide the tactics. Obama rightly pointed out that Bush has now deferred his responsibilities as C-in-C to the generals.

     The thing that sickened me the most was that you can see how much Hillary loves to get in the mud by her Bush like smirk during the early part of the debate.

     Posted by KQuark at 04/17/2008 @ 04:00am

105. Here's a little to ponder. No wonder our idiot moderators on ABC won't ask pertinent questions.

     REPUBLICANS ARE IN BED WITH THE OIL COMPANIES WHO MAKE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS A WEEK AND GIVE TO THE REPUBLICANS WITH THEIR OIL STOCK. AND THE REPUBLICAN SOLUTION IS TO ELIMINATE THE 30 CENT GAS TAX THAT GOES TOWARDS PAYING OFF OUR 10 TRILLION DOLLAR DEFICIT? GOD HELP THIS COUNTRY IF MCCAIN IS ELECTED, YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.But don't forget Big Pharma, Big Insurance, & list goes on & on & on, etc! That's why "WE" common folk are being screwed out of every cent we can earn no matter how many jobs we have or whatever income level we're at! Also here to fully reveal to brain dead folks who don't have a clue as to what's happening & been happening to our "ONCE FINE NATION" The Europeans are right when they trully believe we've as a Nation been reduced to a piece of shit in their eyes.I'm older & "Did perform Police Action on DMZ in Korea many yrs ago. Still LOVE America but also agree w/ rest of world as to how we're viewed by them for GOOD reason!

     Here's the Icing on cake which could never be more truly spoken =

     Hey Folks, I've got a brilliant IDEA! Let's get rid of the republicain and Democratic parties. Yes, all of them. House, Senate, special interest groups etc. Start a new COMMON SENSE PARTY. That's right! Put all those professional politicians in the unemployment line like the average joe. Tax the living **** out of what ever they do,and whatever they try to do.Put them in social security with the rest of the common folk. Make them pay an outrageous premium for there medical care. Sqeeze their budget so tight they pray for food stamps. Well you know what I mean! I don't want to get too graphic. We better get some "REAL"leadership in this country soon, or all of us might be in the soup line.Oh I'm forgetting there are no soup lines any more.

     Posted by moderator at 04/17/2008 @ 04:05am

106. HRC has lost. But to those still beating the broken drum on behalf of her 20, 30, 35 years of "experience," (pick one), note well: our current president has years of experience as a political CEO (Austin & DC) & 5+ years running a multi-trillion dollar war ... now that's a lot of experience. Would you want him for 4 more years? or running your next war? HRC has had one (1) major hands-on policy experience, at which she was an utter failure, burying national health care insurance for 16 years. Please, let's hear no more about HRC's experience. We've heard more than enough from Ms Truthiness herself already.

     Posted by sloper at 04/17/2008 @ 04:25am

107. How tempting to reduce Democratic/liberal/progressive politics to a psychological urge preferring to be right rather than president. But let's stick to something empirically verifiable (or falsifiable): does Obama appeal to the 1/3 of the center of the electorate that is non-partisan, i.e., not identified with a party? If you believe he is....well, I'll be back the day after Election Day. Folks, not all independent voters identify with liberal elite positions (e.g., love the working class, find workers repugnant and moronic).

     Posted by petelush at 04/17/2008 @ 04:58am

108. Katrina, I have enjoyed watching you and George Will spar on This Week with George Stephenopoulos many times and appreciate your intent to get your point of view out into the mainstream press. I have been a religious viewer of that show for years. After tonight's debate which was disrespectful to both candidates, the Democratic Party and the entire country, I urge you to notify George S. and inform him you will no longer participate in his show. The reason our country faces problems like an endless war in Iraq is not only the poor judgment of our elected leaders but the acquiescence of a self-satisfied media that creates its own narratives, many of which bear no relation to the genuine issues facing this country. ABC must be shown that their casual attitude about vital national matters and attachment to frivolous and trivial "gotcha" diversions is unacceptable. I have written numerous emails tonight and left messages at ABC. Please reinforce this effort by telling ABC and George S. particularly you can no longer participate in a forum run by a farcical network that sullies the tradition of TV journalism practiced by the Cronkites, Murrows and Lehrers of the world.

     Posted by jongold at 04/17/2008 @ 05:03am

109. Katrina-

     If you hadn't been screwing around on Geffens 454ft yacht, you could have caught Mayhill's piece before it got published.

     Subway sandwiches, my a$$.

     Posted by dualdiagnosis at 04/17/2008 @ 05:16am

110. I think the geeks at ABC should lose their broadcast license. The rightwing agenda of these freaks and their unabashed support of the Bush Chaney neocon cabal is obvious and sickens me. How could they ask O questions like those and expect me to take this travesty seriously. Real and honest questions like, "what is your favorite tree?" or how will you fight global warming? would be more substantive and revealing as far as Os presidency, and not why do you befriend outright racists like Wright or gangsters like Tony the fixer. C'mon, can't we get back to the old fashioned lib friendly journalism?

     Posted by writer1 at 04/17/2008 @ 05:50am

111. Please....it is about time they both were asked tough questions, it is not the fault of the moderators if they were irresponsible and weak on their answers. Hopefully upcoming debates will be like this, including the rep/dem debates. People don't watch debates b/c they are dog and pony shows...maybe this will change and all candidiates will be put in uncomfortable positions....I welcome that....

     Posted by cuppa jo at 04/17/2008 @ 06:59am

112. No question this was a "tabloid "level event, but what is even more revealing was the universal talking points that decreed that Obama had a "bad night". My immediate impression is that he was a class act--especially in comparison to the crass bottom feeders he was surrounded by. It was interesting to watch Obama refrain, with elegance and grace, from battering Clinton when he had ample opportunity. You would think she would feel gratitude, but instead she continues to stab--and I had the impression that she felt that she was entitled to the consideration but that she continued to stab as punishment for threatening her entitlement. I can barely stand the smug, self-satisfied set of her lips and the expectation that if the MSM isn't battering Obama to a pulp 24/7, it is being unfair to her. The Clintons claim that Obama hasn't been "vetted" and they have been through it all before and there is nothing the Right can hit them with, but just because Obama is unwilling to operate at that level doesn't mean there isn't endless ripe pickin's for the Right that anticipates "vetting" Clinton with the gusto that Obama finds repellent.

     Posted by Lil at 04/17/2008 @ 07:09am

113. Gees, it requires way too much scrolling in this place to come accross a thoughtful--or even entertaining insight. The Nation should really do something about the troll problem. There is free speech and then there is gestapo running amok.

     Posted by Lil at 04/17/2008 @ 07:22am

114. Concur 100%! This was the worst so-called "debate" of the seemingly endless series. I was praying that Dennis Kuchinich would show up about half-way through. ABC stunk! As some have stated, "National Enquirer" and "Fox News" rolled into one.

     Posted by Irritated at 04/17/2008 @ 07:26am

115. Dear Whoever is going to show the next debate between Obama and HRC:

     Try going "Lincoln-Douglas" with the 2 candidates who could actually do the format justice.

     Signed,

     Bitter

     Posted by Egalitare at 04/17/2008 @ 07:51am

116. Katrina, Wow, I was fearful than no one else would note the News style and elements of the questions. Charlie Gibson looked as if he was interviewing for a job on Fox news and George appeared torn between his old boss and meaningful modern journalism. Regardless, in my journalism class I was taught that the reporters and moderators should not be the news or the media event. You had these two performing in the style of comic Colbert and one fully expected them to run to the apron of the stage and take bows. Amateurs of the worst order and the Network should take note of this debacle. Some advice for the Network would have been maybe a question like: "Senators, at the beginning of the campaign one had a superdelegate lead of over 200 and now that delegate count (aspect) of the primary race has almost equalized; what are your thoughts and explanations regarding that equalization phenomenon." "Senator Clinton, do you look at the delegate math and what are your chances of winning this contest." Senator Obama, your lead appears insurmountable but you still have not been able to get the Nation and Senator Clinton to abandon her efforts and join your apparently winning team."

     Posted by terrt at 04/17/2008 @ 08:00am

117. darladoon you are a joy to read, thanks for keeping your cool and sense of humor

     Posted by ultvio at 04/17/2008 @ 08:21am

118. Posted by JONGOLD 04/17/2008 @ 05:03am

     Huh, guess again. Ms vanden Heuvel actually WROTE an article here at "TN" accusing Chris Matthews and the entire MSNBC network of MISOGYNY (perhaps rightfully so)....

     that stop her from continueing to go on "Hardball"?....nope.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 08:47am

119. BTW, the "Debate" was a wash....nobody came out on-top.

     Her Majesty will win Pennsylvania (anywhere from 5-7%) and we move on to Indiana and Carolina.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 08:49am

120. Huh, guess again. Ms vanden Heuvel actually WROTE an article here at "TN" accusing Chris Matthews and the entire MSNBC network of MISOGYNY (perhaps rightfully so)....

     that stop her from continuing to go on "Hardball"?....nope.

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 08:47am

     I was just about to say something to that effect. I understand that KVH wants to get her paper out there and try to be a fierce advocate for the progressive agenda, but at what point does the desire for advocacy bleed over into hypocrisy?

     I like KVH, I generally stop on a channel if I see her on, but next time you blast a media outlet, go on their show and blast them there.

     Say this: "George, I'm not sure what you were trying to accomplish at last weeks debate. With all this chatter about who's elitist and who is looking out for blue collar workers, do you think anyone in our democracy was served by that shameful performance of 52 minutes of gotcha questioning? I threw my sandwich at the TV at one point during this performance, if it wasn't my job to watch this sort of screed I would have just watched Top Chef. It's clear that some at ABC think the issues that plague America are Weather Underground, Flag Pins and Bosnia snipers."

     Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 08:59am

121. Any bureau chief who assigns George Stephanopolus (a former Clinton staffer) to moderate a Clinton/Obama Debate, should be immediately fired and shoved out the door without an opportunity to collect his or her belongings.

     Posted by CrushInfamy at 04/17/2008 @ 09:04am

122. BTW, the "Debate" was a wash....nobody came out on-top.

     Her Majesty will win Pennsylvania (anywhere from 5-7%) and we move on to Indiana and Carolina.

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 08:49am

     I would say the grades would be: Clinton: B- Obama: C+ Abcnews: F

     I hate to give F's to anything, I try to find some diamond in the rough, but this was gross negligence by Abcnews in their responsibility to our American democracy. Clinton folks should be mad too. She probably won the debate, but it's obfuscated by the disgusting line of questioning. My question is this, did she win any votes? or did she and abcnews scare any voters?

     Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 09:05am

123. I see Pennsylvania as being very close, though I think Hillary will eek out a victory (1-4%). As for Indiana, polls are now showing Obama with a lead or that the race is tied, I would give this an equally narrow margin towards Obama. North Carolina will be a dismal showing by Clinton, a 20 point loss.

     Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 09:09am

124. Posted by TZIMISCE 04/17/2008 @ 09:05am |

     The "debates" are just goofy press conferences. I don't fault Gibson and Snufalupucus...that's the game now. After...what?...twenty of these things (dating back to when it was including Kucinich and Gravel), we've had opportunities to hear "their view on the issues"...and they make speeches all the time.

     These stupid trivialities are all that's left, and if they DIDN'T ask Obama about "bitter" or Rev. Wright...or if they DIDN'T ask Her Nibs about "Bullets over Bosnia"....the other side would complain that they let him/her off the hook.

     Which is why the "I want a solid issue-oriented debate" is mostly b.s. from atleast half (if not more) of the politically active.

     I WOULD like to see one....but I'm not fooling myself that it'll happen or getting pissy for Charlie and George for not giving it to me.

     I just realize that this silliness is the way the game is played. I mean, at this point, it's like complaining about intentional "fouling" in an NBA basketball game and saying "I'd like to see a nice, clean, no intent fouling professional b-ball game".

     Sure....but it ain't happening.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 09:19am

125. Posted by TZIMISCE 04/17/2008 @ 09:09am

     I wouldn't "low ball" those predictions, TZIM. It may SEEM tight now, but she'll pick up a lot of undecideds.

     I stick with 5-7% HRC in PA.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 09:20am

126. BTW, in case anybody missed it, FRANKGRITS made a pretty astounding admission on the "Hillary Hypocrisy" thread below....

     i.e. WITHOUT Bill, Hillary is less deserving to be President than John McCain!

     Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:10am

     Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:17am

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 09:26am

127. I would disagree about the issues and that they have been properly probed. Healthcare, sure I'll give you that, it has been a centerpiece of many a debate now. But what about the environment? More on the economy? China? Afghanistan? (which often gets forgotten in the Iraq debate) Immigration? The Dollar? Housing? Education? etc etc etc... Seriously those are many an issue that have not been pursued.

     Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 09:28am

128. there have been 12,000 hits to the abc website their phones are ringing off the hook. the american people are angry, very, very, angry.

     at one of the most critical junctures in our nations history; the appalling, sleazy, puerile performance on the part of charles gibson and george stephanopolous was a disgrace.

     they have sorely underestimated the intelligence of the american public.

     flag pins, rev wright, ayers!?!?! all this while americans are losing their homes in record numbers, more people are on food stamps then ever before, our young losing their lives in iran , jobs being lost... and these idiots ask about lapel pins?

     Posted by ariaadne at 04/17/2008 @ 09:32am

129. But I guess in the end you are right, Abc wont listen to anyone's suggestions and 21 debates is just way too many. It's also way too many when the format is the same every damn time. How many town halls have there been and why can't we have an updated Lincoln-Douglas? (not 45 minutes back and then forth, but maybe 5-10 on a topic)

     Posted by Tzimisce at 04/17/2008 @ 09:32am

130. this cover from the time's archives says it all. george, as evidenced at the debate, still feels as tho he works for the clintons.

     http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/4/16/13329/3501/457/496866

     Posted by ariaadne at 04/17/2008 @ 09:43am

131. BTW, the "Debate" was a wash....

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 08:49am

     well, nobody will clean up bathing in dung.

     Posted by frosted zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 10:28am

132. Hillary has over 20 years as being the Better Half of a state and national Head of State,=

     As as been said, that's like saying that Yoko had experience being a Beatle. Incidentally, it was 19 years total. She spent a good deal of that time in Arkansas sitting on various corporate boards and continuing to generate billable hours at her law firm(new definition of public service?)

     As First Lady, her one big job was the health care issue, which she mishandled. In fact, as an arti cle [nytimes.com] in the NYTimes pointed out, she never had a security clearance, never attended NSC meetings or received copies of the President's daily intel briefing.

     Posted by brunowe at 04/17/2008 @ 10:28am

133. Posted by LIL 04/17/2008 @ 07:22am

     I have to agree. If the 2 or 3 trolls who post constantly on these threads are paid to do so, their bosses at The Nation might want to consider giving them a different job assignment, like sweeping the office floors or scrubbing the bathroom sinks.

     Posted by KSP556 at 04/17/2008 @ 10:31am

134. That the dems would win in a landslide and increase their leads in both Houses of Congress? Yes. I said that numerous times. That was before the candidacy of Barack Obama. Now, the dems will be lucky if they hold on to the Senate and they can just about forget the WH if B.O. is the nominee.

     You have no idea what you're talking about. The Democrats are going to gain a couple of seats in the Senate no matter who the Democratic nominee is. Obama has as good a chance against McCain as Clinton does.

     I'm a political junkie. I know what I'm talking about. I'm very seldom wrong about these things and I don't care who disagrees.

     Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:02am | ignore this person

     Yes, you're a legend in your own mind.

     Face facts. Your only two real beefs with Obama are 1) that he may beat your first-choice for the nomination and 2) you have issues with a "mulatto" "boy" (Frank's words, not mine) being President.

     Posted by brunowe at 04/17/2008 @ 10:32am

135. Charles Gibson displays the unfortunate, but common media combination of arrogance and ignorance. Despite the professorial positioning of his spectacles, this is no professor. On at least 3 occasions he persisted in attempts to extract no tax increase pledges from the candidates and in each instance prefaced the questions with error posing as accepted fact. He acted as defender of the middle class ("teachers and policemen") when he implied that Obama's consideration of raising the ceiling on payroll taxes would hurt the middle class. Does he know that the average family income in the U.S. is in the mid 60's or that the mean is in the mid 60's. What cops and and teachers does he know that are making 95 K per year? When Senator Obama allowed this to go by without challenge, but correctly identified the alternatives (later retirement age or lower benefits), he seemed annoyed. In the same spirit of protecting the middle class, Gibson pushed them repeatedly to a promise of no tax increase for those making below 250 K. He then, in prefacing a challenge not to raise capital gains taxes, stated as a proven fact that lowering those taxes has actually resulted in increased revenues. Here, I was rather surprised at the candidates' failure to point out his error. Revenues indeed do increase for the first year or two after a capital gains cut as individuals move to take long held gains. In the out years, however, revenues fall below those before the cut. As for the general tenor of the questioning, as has been noted, the ABC twosome were an embarassment to serious public discouse.

     Posted by efeinglass at 04/17/2008 @ 10:37am

136. Posted by BRUNOWE 04/17/2008 @ 10:32am

     FRANK's "expertise" included predicting Lieberman would never win re-election in 2006....and that "The Library of Congress categorizes The Bible in the Fiction section".

     He also warned us all to stop listening to Rush Limbaugh because it'll mean you're being brainwashed and controlled....

     and the proceeds to update us every day on what Rush has said!

     heheh

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 10:38am

137. Does that include the MASSIVE increases in benefit spending?

     Posted by USC1 04/16/2008 @ 10:46pm | ignore this person

     wrong topic.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 10:43am

138. Last night's debate between Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama might not have offered new insights into the political plans of the two contenders, but it enabled the audience to make a first-hand diagnosis of the shocking state of public discourse in the United States. The two moderators, Charles Gibson and George Stephanopolous, spent the first 46 minutes of the debate discussing topics such as flag pins, the candidates' choice of churches, and their attitudes about gun control. These issues are, at best, only peripheral to the staggering mountain of problems facing this nation. At worst, they reflect how much this country, and the mainstream media, have adjusted to the rightwing and proto-fascist fearmongering that dominated the last eight years. It is hard to imagine any other democratic nation where a contender for the highest office is being asked, not by some thirdrate journalists but by prominent anchors, whether or not he is a patriot. And all of this because he is not wearing a flag pin! Instead of accepting as evidence for his patriotism the fact that Obama, who had to answer this question, subjects himself to the grinding two-year process of campaigning, the moderators resorted to an embarrassing line of questioning that invoked the atmosphere of twentieth-century totalitarian politics: "You are not flying the swastika outside your window!" or "Where's your picture of Stalin?" A similar gusto for manufactured scandals was visible in the questions about Obama's pastor, Mr. Wright. Obama has answered these questions before, he did so again in a way that seemed integer. Yet, the overarching point is: Why does it matter so much? George W. Bush, Dick Cheney, and Condi Rice never listened to Wright, I assume, but they still lied, started a war, and approved the torturing of detainees. The moderators' and ABC's performance made no secret about their contempt for democracy. Several times, Gibson announced that they would cut away to a commercial break. Why do they need a commercial break during a debate that features two persons who might run this nation as president? Are they afraid that people don't have the attention span? To see how the moderators and the candidates struggled to finish questions and answers before commercial breaks was symbolic of how a capitalist media system has hijacked American politics: The timing of questions and answers, the presentation of arguments is not important per se but, rather, has to fit into a representational grid established by the corporate structure of the medium. This contempt for democracy shapes how Stephanopolous and Gibson understand their roles as journalists. While they donned the mantle of relentless investigative journalists by pursuing the above mentioned trivia questions they also revealed a painful level of disregard for civil democratic structures. When Charlie Gibson asked whether the candidates would ignore the generals' advice when it came to leaving Iraq, it was Clinton who had to remind Gibson that the US is not run by a military junta but by a civilian leadership that has the last word about when and how to use military force! No surprise, then, that there was not a single question about what the candidates would do about the Patriot Act or whether they would investigate possible war crimes by the current president, who admitted that he approved of "harsh interrogation methods," a.k.a. torture. But, wait, how could Obama and Clinton know about this--Charlie, George, and their colleagues have yet to make a story about that. It will have to wait, though, because first we need to know about these missing flag pins!

     Posted by dantesvalley at 04/17/2008 @ 10:43am

139. Although Obama had a harder time with the questions, and did very little to help himself, the real loser was Hillary. The few undecided Pennsylvanians left are more likely to support Hillary if she shows herself to be above the fray, trustworthier, and less smug. After Obama was grilled about his Gun and God comments, Hillary was given a golden opportunity with a rebuttal- she could have said although she thought his comments were misguided, she believes he's not elitist and would rather discuss real issues that truly affect the people targeted by those comments, like financial security or better education and infrastructure. BUT, she showed her true colors and rebutted with that ridiculous canned response about growing up shooting guns with her Methodist Grandpappy- seriously, she BLEW it.

     Posted by phillymark at 04/17/2008 @ 10:49am

140. Posted by KEVIN_OKEEFFE 04/17/2008 @ 12:15am | ignore this person

     that's not true. the pres has an enormous impact on the economy. Bush's decision to invade Iraq, has had a great impact. that's just the most obvious.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 10:49am

141. I'm very seldom wrong about these things and I don't care who disagrees.

     Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:02am | ignore this person

     what piffle.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 11:00am

142. let's soak everyone, that's the only way real revenue will be raised). Bye

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 10:37am | ignore this person

     nonsense. let's bring back the top rate of 90% and watch the money roll in.

     example: let's say the top rate kicks in at $25 million. that's more than generous, compared to the past. so the CEO gets $200 million in salary. the first 25 mill is taxed at 35%. and the rest at 90%. this leaves the CEO a salary of $31 million. not a bad paycheck, surely. and we will all be richer in the process.

     the rich use most of the gov't services, they should pay their fair share.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 11:06am

143. only $30 million? why that's enough to sap the drive of any corporate knight. hardly worth getting up and going to work, is it?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 11:11am

144. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 11:06am

     Yes.....of what can be taxed as "income".

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 11:47am

145. Posted by EULER 04/17/2008

     So...'taxing the poor'....'a draft to go to war with China'....and 'executing the clergy'?

     I assume as a Hillary supporter you're getting that off her website?

     heheh

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 11:59am

146. However, the poor, as you well know, use most of the government services, so let's soak them as well. Make everyone pay, all the time. Nothing facetious intended.

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 11:51am | ignore this person

     no, they don't. take the justice system for instance. anyone who has spent any time in civil court realizes that it's all rich people suing each other. no poor people there. or take our gov't, please do. nearly all their acts benefit the wealthy, their masters.

     how about infrastructure such as airports etc. mostly for the rich, poor people take the bus. the patent office? no poor people there. the military? if the US is invaded and a puppet gov't of the invader is installed. who has the most to lose? the rich of course.

     see what I mean?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:03pm

147. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Euler

     channeling Marat?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:04pm

148. People must be forced to serve, in both military and civil funtions, all the time. The very notion of civil society is, to me, vaguely offensive.

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 11:54am | ignore this person

     channeling Lenin?

     you are descending into absurdity. most European countries have abandoned the draft.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:06pm

149. actually you sound more like Mao or Pol Pot. that word "force" gives you a hard on, doesn't it.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:07pm

150. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:13pm

     Questioning Obama's patriotism or of his Marine veteran pastor (have you served in the military FRANKGRITS?) is the wrong move by Camp Hillary, and attempts to align her with ultra-conservative Republican voters.

     Maybe Hillary's only shot at winning is to partner with conservative talk-show host Rush Limbaugh in his Operation Chaos, but even Republicans are feeling queezy about supporting such a open liar like Hillary, who doesn't seem to know the difference between getting shot at and a peaceful ceremony on the airport tarmac.

     Posted by Metteyya at 04/17/2008 @ 12:39pm

151. rio bravo, can you answer me one question?

     if obama is an empty suit, then what is mccain?

     Posted by DARLADOON 04/16/2008 @ 11:52pm | ignore this person

     Darla, methinks Rio has voted for any number of empty suits over the years, including Reagan, the Bushes, and any number of right-wing, brain dead GOP candidates. Hell, he probably thinks that the well-known chicken hawk actor John Wayne really was a war hero!

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 12:42pm

152. Some European countries have abandoned the draft,

     SOME?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:45pm

153. Sadly I didn't get to watch the debates last night so I'm watching them right now. So far I am only about half way through the debate. However I am looking at the comments on here and can answer to some. Frank you complained this whole time about Hillary being put on a pillar and beaten in debates now that other people are complaining about you are calling them sissy's. Hypocritical much?

     Happy no matter how much you repeat you are not offering fair and balanced opinions on the candidates. You have argued so many times with us that our opinions of McCain are slanted doesn't that apply to you and the democratic candidates. You don't like either of them so aren't you going to insult both of them. I have never heard you say anything positive about either so you are not objective you are heavily slanted and no matter what the candidates do no matter what they say if they aren't saying something you AGREE with you are going to insult them.

     Rio.......just stop. You are what makes me sad when I think of Republicans because I know so many sensible ones. You are crazy. You are just like the nuts on the left. Stop..Just stop.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:47pm

154. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:35p

     Were you in the military Frank?

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm

155. Posted by DARLADOON 04/16/2008 @ 11:45pm

     As usual you are ALL rhetoric and no substance just like Alibama!!!

     Posted by RIO BRAVO 04/16/2008 @ 11:49pm | ignore this person

     Really, Rio? Once again, I'll ask a question that I've asked of you before - why are you here hiding behind your keyboard? Why are you not fighting your Dear Leader's war in Iraq? Is it because you really don't believe your own nonsense? Or is it simply because you're an abject coward? And that goes for Happy, LvL, MarkCanyon and the rest of the right-wingers who post here. All rhetoric and no substance. Rio, your very presence here confirms that to be the most charitable description possible of you. So, I'll ask you again, coward. When are you going to summon the balls, and the common decency, to put your ass on the line and go fight your own war?

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm

156. Among NATO's members, Canada, Britain and Luxembourg also have a decades-long tradition of all-volunteer service. Since the mid-1990s, though, Belgium, France, Hungary, the Netherlands, Portugal and Spain have ended the draft. The Czech Republic, Italy, Latvia, Romania, the Slovak Republic and Slovenia plan to phase it out within the next several years.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:52pm

157. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:35p

     Also this would never work. You mention the draft and it brings back memories of Vietnam. Where the well to do bought their way of the war and the poor had to fight because they couldn't afford it. I also guarantee you that IF a draft was passed the Senate would still allow you to buy your way out of it because so many of the pro-war senators would never let their children into the military. That's a fact that has video evidence. So many of them when asked if they would let their children into the military they would say no. A lot of people would object for many different reasons. Of course the rich would win out but the poor would fight it too.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:52pm

158. Posted by JMUSOLINO 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm | ignore this person

     he's cheering real hard from the sidelines, like ALL the keyboard warriors here.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm

159. Posted by JMUSOLINO 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm

     Well LVL is like 60 and DID serve in the military. I don't know about the rest.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm

160. Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 12:48pm | ignore this person

     Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:35p

     Why should any citizen have to be cannon fodder for US corporate interests abroad? I have a suggestion for a draft. First, it should happen only in time of war. Second, any elective war should be submitted to direct popular vote, requiring an absolute majority for passage. The vote should be required of every citizen and resident alien 18 years of age and older, using a non-secret ballot. Identity must be verified, and everyone must vote Yes or No. Should the resolution pass, all who voted Yes are drafted. Immediately. They leave their homes, families, jobs, everything. No exceptions for any reason. And those with the most to gain, the ones with the largest incomes and assets, the most prestigious and powerful positions, those are the first to the front. Let war be fought by the warmongers.

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 12:56pm

161. forging a community?

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 12:52pm | ignore this person

     channeling Bismarck?

     forging, that's so 19th century.

     I don't know when you came of draft age, but I did during the Vietnam war. the anti war community turned out to be stronger than the military community.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 12:57pm

162. So far ALL I have heard in this debate is scandal and answer. Clinton on her comments about Bosnia, Obama on Reverend Wright and how they plan to answer scandals when the Republicans bring them up. This is ridiculous. Politics isn't supposed to be about scandal it's supposed to be about platforms. Can we hear some more of the issues not the scandals and more scandal baiting.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:57pm

163. Posted by JMUSOLINO 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm

     Well LVL is like 60 and DID serve in the military. I don't know about the rest.

     Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm | ignore this person

     Lots of folks have served multiple stints, even multiple wars. There are combatants in Iraq pushing 60. I'm sure something can be found for him.

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 12:58pm

164. One question I have to say Hillary answered not so well because she trapped herself was the one about her Bosnia comments. She said "of course we make mistakes when you talk as much as we do and we shouldn't make such a big issue of it." However then she attacks Obama on mistakes he made when he was phrasing a comment about middle America. It paints her as a hypocrite. She shouldn't have put that portion into the answer it's just way too easy to use against her when she does this again.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 12:59pm

165. Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 12:55pm | ignore this person

     a partial list, but the best I was able to do. that was written in 2004. things may have changed, but one thing is certain, no country in Europe has gone TO the draft.

     the militarism in our country and society is so pervasive, even without the draft. we are basically at the end of WW2 as country. permanent war, permanent occupations, troops all over the world. yech.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 1:00pm

166. some DID serve. I was talking about service now. the recruiter doesn't count, he's a vampire.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 1:01pm

167. he's cheering real hard from the sidelines, like ALL the keyboard warriors here.

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm | ignore this person

     Amazing, isn't it? Talks a real tough game, though, doesn't he? I think it's a question to ask him over and over again, until he either enlists (as if...) or comes up with an excuse for his depraved cowardice.

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 1:01pm

168. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:35p

     Another question about the draft. Considering you don't agree with the war in Iraq but you think people should be FORCED to fight it. That is why I am not in support of the draft just because we are so militaristic why should I have to fight a war to protect corporate interests? A war that I have think is one of the biggest blunders in US history.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:03pm

169. Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:09pm

     (Know he won't be back for a while, but ask anyway....maybe EULER can explain FG's thinking)...

     FRANK, want to explain again how you think WITHOUT BILL, McCain is more deserving to be President than Hillary????

     "No-one in this country in the political arena deserves to be president more than John McCain."----Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 12:10am

     "But I'm a democrat so I will support Hillary because next to John McCain she is the most deserving. The combination of Bill and Hillary outweigh McCain in my view."----Posted by FRANKGRITS 04/17/2008 @ 01:17am |

     BLOG | Posted 04/16/2008 @ 2:11pm Comments for "Hillary's Hypocrisy on Video"

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 1:06pm

170. Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm

     Best I can drag out of LVLIB, he drove an ambulance or hearse or delivered the mail in Vietnam.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 1:09pm

171. I like his response to the question about The Weather underground when Clinton tried to slap him with the issue and he responded by saying that knowing him and serving for a short time on the board with him is a little less important than Clinton pardoning to members of the group.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:12pm

172. I just realize that this silliness is the way the game is played. I mean, at this point, it's like complaining about intentional "fouling" in an NBA basketball game and saying "I'd like to see a nice, clean, no intent fouling professional b-ball game".

     Sure....but it ain't happening.

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 09:19am | ignore this person

     But if they made every foul shot in the final 2 minutes worth 2 points, instead of just 1...

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 1:13pm

173. Clintons answer to Iraq is quite good. She has finally nailed down her stance and is speaking well about it and the details of it.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:15pm

174. the recruiter doesn't count, he's a vampire.

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 1:01pm

     i vant YOU to drink some blooooood.........

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 1:18pm

175. Best I can drag out of LVLIB, he drove an ambulance or hearse or delivered the mail in Vietnam.

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 1:09pm | ignore this person

     Ted Williams flew missions in WWII and Korea, Ike fought in both World Wars. LVL could probably learn Arabic, and they'd certainly find something with which he could occupy his time. As for Rio, the Not-So-Bravo...

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 1:18pm

176. Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 12:53pm

     he's told me he used to make cluster bombs and that he had worked for the mossad.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 1:19pm

177. Clintons answer to Iraq is quite good. She has finally nailed down her stance and is speaking well about it and the details of it.

     Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 1:15pm

     and you believe her?

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 1:21pm

178. I can look at him and tell the reason the reason he sounds like he is stumbling is because he is trying to phrase everything he says very carefully so he can't be misquoted. You know the reason they are phrasing the questions the way they are so they can get scandalous sound bites to use against both candidates. Looks like no one can say that Obama would not stop Iran from getting nukes or not protect Israel in the event of an attack from Iran. He said directly that he would do it.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:23pm

179. Posted by JMUSOLINO 04/17/2008 @ 1:18pm

     Well, all I know is, he wasn't in a combat unit. But is Mr. "Gung-ho" for bombing the crap out of places and sending others into a meat-grinder, either Iraq or his "dream war" of Iran AND Syria.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 1:27pm

180. Mr. Gibson, what happened? You used to be so reliable, so trustworthy that is was a pleasure to hear the most heinous news from you. Were you auditioning for a job at FOX News last night? It had to be either that or you forgot to mention the Clinton/McCain sponsorship of the debate itself. There have now been twenty-one debates in total and last nights was far and away the worst waste of time and effort of all of them. How do you spend a ridiculous amount of time on meaningless political spin and then squeeze a few questions of substance in at the end almost as an after thought? Sen. Obama said himself, people want to hear more about how either candidate could help them in the long run as opposed to more about flag pins and fake sniper fire. At least George had the excuse of working for the Clintons at one time but you - you sir were a respected journalist. How could you be apart of something so vile and still face the camera or a mirror for that matter ever again?

     Posted by eldamon at 04/17/2008 @ 1:39pm

181. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 04/17/2008 @ 1:21pm

     I don't fully believe any politician unless I see it. However I have to at least applaud that fact that she said it.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:40pm

182. Posted by FRANKGRITS

     Frank, didja get the link - I uploaded the Fireside Chat to my new ISP and left it on that McCain thread

     Len Mosse

     Lenny, didn't you hear? The Pope declared excessive wealth (and environmental malfeasance) to be sins. Repent ye sinners or face the flames for eternity...

     Posted by leftofcenter at 04/17/2008 @ 1:43pm

183. Posted byMARYBRETBRAD 04/17/2008 @ 12:49pm

     I too think a short stint in public service of some sort would do them a world of good. Maybe a choice between military, inner-city teachers' aid, or something resembling the old CCC and/or Habitat for Humanity.

     Posted by leftofcenter at 04/17/2008 @ 1:46pm

184. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=leftofcenter

     let's keep it VOLUNTARY shall we?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 1:49pm

185. Jesus christ I'm sick of this moderator and his constant would you pledge to this or that. No body pledges to anything and just because you ask them to doesn't mean they should or would. They are both smart enough to know that even though they have a platform things have to change once you get the full amount of information so you asking them to pledge to crap is ridiculous. He's trying to trap them that's not the job of a debate moderator. Moderators are supposed to be objective hell he even gets argumentative. The word moderator means you moderate the debate you don't participate. YOU aren't debating with the candidates the candidates are debating with each other.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 1:53pm

186. Well, all I know is, he wasn't in a combat unit. But is Mr. "Gung-ho" for bombing the crap out of places and sending others into a meat-grinder, either Iraq or his "dream war" of Iran AND Syria.

     Posted by MASK 04/17/2008 @ 1:27pm | ignore this person

     Again, I think we should continually ask all of the gung-ho ones when and where they served, in which combat units, and why they have yet to put their own asses on the line for these contemporary wars of which they are so enamored. They do like to talk a bellicose game. Time to hold the cowards' feet to the fire.

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 2:04pm

187. Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 1:40pm

     a lot of what madame clinton says is decent and would improve the situation of many. that's why you'll vote for her instead of mister mccain (not that that is going to be the choice, ¿n'est-ce pas?)

     but then again,

     perhaps she's the ultimate republican operative.

     hey, THAT explains A LOT.

     if we can't have bushclintonbushclinton, bushclintonbushbushclintonish will do.

     learn a little puppetry a la stromboliov.........

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 2:10pm

188. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 04/17/2008 @ 2:10pm

     Seeing her at least get close to a real platform makes me have a little more confidence if she got elected I might vote for her. She needs to stop the constant attacks on Obama, that takes away a lot of my trust for her.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 2:19pm

189. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 2:21pm

     Have to agree. Freedom of religion I think is important. It's ridiculous to say we should get rid of religions or religious people. I wish people were a little less fanatical about their religion no matter what it is but that's an entirely different issue.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 2:26pm

190. Last nights debate was a sham! Is it relevant that 58% of the American people don't find Hillary Clinton honest or trustworthy? Is it relevant that she has LIED on more than one occassion about sniper fire, NAFTA, CAFTA, and her Iraq war authorization? I question her honesty about what she will do for the middle class, unions, the working poor, healthcare, ending the war in Iraq and not starting a new one with Iran. She has a very looooong track record of making excuses and lying about her support of past and present policies, why should I start believing her now based on her performance over the last 15 months of this presidential campaign.

     Posted by Payne_7617 at 04/17/2008 @ 2:38pm

191. Posted by PAYNE_7617 04/17/2008 @ 2:38pm

     "OPTIMUS", FROSTY???

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 2:49pm

192. Posted by HAPPY2 04/17/2008 @ 2:58pm

     EVERYONE AVERT YOUR EYES!

     My God, does it hurt to do that Happy?

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 3:01pm

193. Posted by HAPPY2 04/17/2008 @ 2:58pm

     Oh come on, HAPPY....what do you care?

     You'll just "go short" on Cigna and Wellpoint stock and make a fortune...leaving us ignorant fools in the dust with your financial and investment prescience!

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 3:11pm

194. obama perky team in message u

     damn! gotta go.

     yep.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 3:13pm

195. Lvliberty, Do a bit of research about average teacher salaries. Even in California, the average teacher pay is around $60,000, and California has a prohibitively high cost of living, which I'm sure you know. Nationwide, average teacher salary is barely above $40,000. We are only holding on to the bottom rung of the middle class if we either work two or more jobs, or our spouse is also working. I can't claim to know much about cops or firemen, but I suspect that $150000 is EXTREMELY rare for a fireman.

     Posted by AZpo'teacher at 04/17/2008 @ 3:23pm

196. but we can re-educate them

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 3:47pm

     Re-education is a step toward fascism. No one needs to be re-educated. You can worship god, god's or whatever and not be insane.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 3:55pm

197. We can avoid the "chickenhawk" question with mandatory service.

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 3:44pm | ignore this person

     Indeed, but mandatory service for those who want the war in question. Those who choose not to support wars of empire, wars of corporate greed and profit, elective wars, those folks should not have to offer themselves as sacrificial lambs. The "chickenhawk" question disappears when the chickenhawks develop the fundamental decency (and the balls) to fight their own wars.

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 3:57pm

198. Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 3:55pm

     I believe EULER is being deliberately antagonistic....because he's pretty much given up on being a cheerleader for Hillary, as that tends to degenerate into madness (Ref: FRANKGRITS and HELENDAO).

     Or he's gone as crazy as those two.

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 4:04pm

199. Check out the article "Barack's "Underground" Friends" http://savagepolitics.com/?p=291

     http://www.savagepolitics.com brilliant writing plus it offers a great community in which to discuss. The editor actually takes time to answer and the political humor section is awesome!!!

     Posted by elsylee at 04/17/2008 @ 4:09pm

200. And we all know what has defined human history is not peace, but war.

     we know nothing of the kind. neither peace nor war has been everlasting in recorded history. in any case, history shows that universal conscription, and total war have been quite rare.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 4:25pm

201. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 4:25pm

     And history shows that ...in the 20th Century, the most dangerous place to be was...

     any country that bordered Germany!

     (heheh...just love to tweak the old Germanophile!)

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 4:35pm

202. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 3:41pm

     OK, of course then, you're right. I'm not suffering, and neither are any of the other teachers who work insane hours to make ends meet, have to continually renew their certification, manage students with extremely short attention spans, etc. In fact, let's pay those lazy teachers LESS! They've got it made with their short day schedule, summers off, and all that, right?

     Have you ever been a teacher? You're completely out of touch with reality. Come down off your cloud.

     Posted by AZpo'teacher at 04/17/2008 @ 5:05pm

203. What the hell was Georgie S. even doing being a Moderator??? ABC should be fined and excluded from holding any other Debates well intot the future. Georgie was still wiping the snot from his nose when he worked for HillaBilly's Admin. So obviously Biased- Just throw your old boss the soft balls . How stupid do they think we are- We are not all drinking the Koolaid, nor as Brain damaged as the last 4 Republican presidents! I'm OUTRAGED!

     Posted by Purple girl at 04/17/2008 @ 5:11pm

204. Posted by AZPO'TEACHER 04/17/2008 @ 5:05pm

     I think teacher SHOULD be making 100k a year. If it was for education where would our country be? So many conservatives LV included argue we need more people educated in R&D but don't want to pay the teachers well who offer the education. There are few jobs in this country I consider selfless but teacher is one. You work long hours for beans and then have to deal with snot-nosed kids who are apathetic and uncaring. I tip my hat to the teachers of this world, they ensure our country continues to run.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 5:21pm

205. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008

     Howabout we let them choose which one?

     Posted by leftofcenter at 04/17/2008 @ 5:29pm

206. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 5:22pm

     How the hell old are you? You were in the military, you taught for 30 years, you worked in corporate America for 30 years and you designed weapons in the military for what like 10-20 years? If you've been working since you were an infant that makes you 70 If you spent more than 2 years in the military that puts you at almost 90 years old.

     Me thinks you are lying about some years here.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 5:43pm

207. Got this from a Bob Cesca piece:

     The ABC switchboard phone number: 212-456-7777

     Posted by jmusolino at 04/17/2008 @ 5:43pm

208. Lvliberty,

     If you have this sterling career in education, then why are your pay and benefits so bad now? Obviously you have some free time on your hands considering how much you're here posting your views.

     Apparently you are part of the reason that education suffers in this country. You have completely bought the myth of teachers having it made. If you have been a teacher, why are you not outraged that they make so much less than professions that require comparable schooling and effort? Teachers, on average, leave the profession after five years now because their pay has not kept pace with inflation, and NCLB has heaped substantial new requirements on all of us. We are asked to do more with less, for less compensation.

     Your brother moving to Washington years ago is largely irrelevant -teachers should not have to move to get paid a living wage, and teacher salaries have probably fallen further behind since his move. That merely sustains disparity in our educational system, if quality teachers can't afford to live in some places in the country. Some of us can't afford to move, especially when we recently bought a home only to watch the real estate market take a sharp dive.

     If you truly value education, you should be advocating for teachers to get incentives that will keep them in the profession.

     Posted by AZpo'teacher at 04/17/2008 @ 5:45pm

209. Posted by AZPO'TEACHER 04/17/2008 @ 5:45pm

     I think doctors should be paid as much as teachers get paid now. Who the hell needs doctors?

     Is my sarcasm too much?

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 5:47pm

210. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 5:22pm

     How is it LV you will argue FOR the bloated salaries of CEO's that work at companies that help no one but themselves however you will argue AGAINST teachers a thankless and selfless job where you get paid dirt to educate peoples shitty kids. I am talking about high school and elementary not University.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 5:57pm

211. Dudes:

     It's now a "beauty contest." What isn't ugly about a beauty contest?

     Posted by goyadad at 04/17/2008 @ 6:04pm

212. Posted by AZPO'TEACHER 04/17/2008 @ 5:45pm,

     You're shouting down a storm drain, dude. Nobody home there.

     LVLIBS puts me in mind of a defrocked priest I once knew who was fit for nothing useful but was sent a stipend of hush-money from the bishopric. He spent hours on hours on the CB radio in the apartment next door to mine. Yikes.

     Now we have the internet. Same types seem to loiter here.

     Posted by goyadad at 04/17/2008 @ 6:19pm

213. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:10pm

     Laziness or not devoting your life to work. My mom always told me to enjoy life because I would have to work the rest of it. I work about 70 hours a week. So don't talk to me about lazy.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:20pm

214. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:10pm

     You should stop making assumptions about me LV you seem to miss the mark every time.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:22pm

215. osted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:20pm

     And why are you against public education? Should only the rich and middle class be allowed educations?

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:24pm

216. You don't know me personally, yet you consider yourself a more productive person than me. It's possible, but not likely.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:21pm

     Isn't that what you JUST did by calling me lazy and assuming I didn't work more than a certain amount of hours a week.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:25pm

217. My other question is. How do you work in corporate America AND teach. Both are 9 to 5's last I found. You can't work 9 to 5 at the same time on two different jobs.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:26pm

218. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:26pm |

     That's a fun schedule. I'm not trying to discredit you by the way just purely curious.

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:30pm

219. "And for myself, I don't have nearly the pay and benefits you have, in fact I have no benefits. No medical insurance, no paid vacations, no sick leave, no pension plan. Like you, I have to have pay for continuing education courses to keep my certifications."

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 5:22pm

     Maybe you should get a real, useful job. "It's all about choices", right?

     Hope you don't get sick....

     Pay for continuing education?!? What, those 'teachers' want to get paid? Besides, who provides "certification" in bullshit fairy-tales?

     "That is what our system is all about. Choices."

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:20pm

     So...let's all choose, wisely, to not go into education. That'll really help. Let the kids teach themselves. They only need to read one book anyway, right?

     Even being against public education (i.e. education for the poor non-religious)...and ignoring that no public education means no education for many... who will teach the children?

     Or do you fit the stereotype that derides all modern education (psychology, science etc.)? Oh, wait...I've read your posts. Nevermind.

     Eric

     Posted by Malcontent at 04/17/2008 @ 6:35pm

220. Posted by GOYADAD 04/17/2008 @ 6:19pm

     You know what they say about assuming...

     Posted by Cccomfo1 at 04/17/2008 @ 6:35pm

221. "And for myself, I don't have nearly the pay and benefits you have, in fact I have no benefits. No medical insurance, no paid vacations, no sick leave, no pension plan. Like you, I have to have pay for continuing education courses to keep my certifications."

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 5:22pm

     NOW IF YOU LIVED IN THE DREADED EU YOU AND EVERYONE ELSE WOULD HAVE ALL THOSE THINGS.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 7:09pm

222. hey american amigos, Finland, 25 paid vacation days. SUCKERS

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 7:10pm

223. Same types seem to loiter here.

     Posted by GOYADAD 04/17/2008 @ 6:19pm

     10-4, good buddy!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 7:34pm

224. I work about 70 hours a week. So don't talk to me about lazy.

     Posted by CCCOMFO1 04/17/2008 @ 6:20pm

     i work between 25-65 hours a week. average is about 35.

     i could care less about money. i value time.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 7:38pm

225. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:10pm

     Yorkshireman 1: Right. I had to get up in the morning at ten o'clock at night, half an hour before I went to bed, eat a lump of cold poison, work twenty-nine hours a day down mill, and pay mill owner for permission to come to work, and when we got home, our Dad would kill us, and dance about on our graves.

     Yorkshireman 2: But you try and tell the young people today that... and they won't believe ya'.

     (Monty Python Live at the Hollywood Bowl)

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 7:38pm

226. Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 7:16pm | ignore this person

     To Emile - I lived in Finland quite a while ago, and had far longer paid days off (are you in a menial job? Teaching, etc. No, just kidding, I guess).

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 7:21pm | ignore this person

     the part about Germany is nonsense. the part about Finland, 25 is the minimum. the NYTimes reported today.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 7:48pm

227. To Emile - I lived in Finland quite a while ago, and had far longer paid days off (are you in a menial job? Teaching, etc. No, just kidding, I guess).

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 7:21pm | ignore this person

     I have never left my hometown, Biloxi

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 7:50pm

228. ah, the moors...........

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 7:51pm

229. Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 7:41pm

     oops.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 7:52pm

230. Biloxi

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 7:50pm

     you wish.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 04/17/2008 @ 7:53pm

231. Pardon the "multi-post" all, but am leaving a message for Frankgrits re: (but all are welcome to view) his good old "Dubya's Pre-war Fireside Chat" on my ISP at:DUBYA

     Posted by leftofcenter at 04/17/2008 @ 8:15pm

232. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Euler

     Germany did not become a country until 1871. many historians consider WW1 and WW2 the same war.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 8:30pm

233. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 8:30pm

     Why?

     Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 8:33pm

234. US and war? I don't have to recite the sorry history for you. two unnecessary ones in the last 50 years. the contrast between the two countries in recent history is striking.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 8:33pm

235. No, why are they considered the same war.

     Posted by Benchrest at 04/17/2008 @ 8:37pm

236. Why?

     Posted by BENCHREST 04/17/2008 @ 8:33pm | ignore this person

     same combatants. many of the same issues. the Treaty of Versailles is often blamed for WW2.

     we are still dealing with the results of that treaty, and the break up of the Ottoman Empire.

     the Us was spectacularly ineffective during that treaty, Wilson got hosed by the Brits and the French.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 8:39pm

237. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Euler

     incoherent drivel. the very fact that the treaty lasted barely twenty years speaks against it. and look what it produced in the mid east.

     Germany experienced two complete currency devaluations. if that happened here, they'd be goose stepping down Pennsylvania avenue.

     never mind. you know very little and you have an ax to grind, grind away.

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 8:56pm

238. In all this debate controversy today and the role of media in "vetting" our candidates, it's become clear to me that the MSM is part of the story in that there seems to be some agreement the MSM with Hillary's stand -- which is "she's already been vetted" and so no one need mention anything that the Republicans will certainly bring forth in November (in fact, most Republicans are prepared and hoping for Hillary and her 54% disapproval rating to be the Dem nominee). And per Joe in this clip - McCain is already "known," so we should not question anything about his acquaintances. Can you imagine if Barack's Florida co-chair solicited someone in the men's room.

     I believe this is the crux of everything going on. Barack is newer to the scene and he is the most threatening to the "old school" of politics and D.C.

     Everything current and past about McCain and Clinton should be brought forth despite the MSM thinking we already "know" them. This is an election year and we demand equal-opportunity vetting!!!!!

     We viewers have short-term memory and we should be reminded of their acquaintances and foibles throughout their histories too!

     Posted by sfsj at 04/17/2008 @ 9:13pm

239. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 8:56pm

     Any minute lingering doubts that EMILE is our old Germanophile friend "Professor" JOHANNESROLF....

     just got wiped away with that "Deutschen" apologia....heheh

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 9:38pm

240. Damn Huns!

     Posted by EULER 04/17/2008 @ 8:51pm | ignore this person

     what, did you just step out of a WW1 propaganda poster? you think I'm going to argue with that merde?

     Posted by emile duBois at 04/17/2008 @ 9:38pm

241. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 04/17/2008 @ 9:38pm

     Oh-oh-oh....EULER....no,no,no....you DON'T mock the Fatherland with Professor ROLF in da haus!!!

     He's like that dad in "Big Fat Greek Wedding" that thinks every word originated in Greece....'cept it's Weinerschnitzel-land with JOHANNES!

     heheh

     Posted by Mask at 04/17/2008 @ 10:21pm

242. The comment that Stephanopolous served in the Clinton administration --true, sort of--reminded me of the contempt that I felt for that slippery mouthed pip-squeak back then. I seldom spend more than a moment or two on TV, news or other, even when pestered by companions. Even then I try very hard to avoid the sight of Stephanopolous because of the visceral reaction that occurs. 'Detest that smarty twit.

     Posted by NationMan at 04/18/2008 @ 04:56am

243. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 04/17/2008 @ 6:21pm

     Don't mistake my meaning, Monsignor Storm Drain. I didn't say you WERE that guy, only that you put me in mind of him. (But who knows for sure-- on the internet "nobody knows you're a dog," after all.)

     It is puzzling that a guy who works 70-90 hours per week on 2-3 jobs and sundry other enterprises would chose to devote the precious little time left over to putting up the countless redundant posting we see here from you.

     For my own part, I just zip over here inbetween appointments. I have no friggin idea how some dedicated posters have the time to lavish on this site that they do. But I'll bet they own Blackberries.

     Posted by goyadad at 04/18/2008 @ 5:29pm

244. obviosly in the "Gotcha debate" we meant 1% not 1.

     Posted by stevehuth at 04/19/2008 @ 02:54am