Why The Muslim Smear is Bigger Than Islam

The right wing smear campaign against Barack Obama is intensifying, with false claims that the Christian, patriotic Senator actually harbors a secret Muslim history and hates America so much he won't even say the pledge of allegiance. The effort has morphed from Internet rumblings and chain emails, as The Nation reported in October, to high profile attacks from the G.O.P. this month -- before Obama has even locked up the nomination.

In the past week, a state Republican Party used the smear in a press release titled "Anti-Semites for Obama" – which it later revised; a radio host raised the innuendo while speaking at a John McCain rally -- McCain swiftly apologized for the remark; and Republican Congressman Jack Kingston went on national television to falsely claim that Obama "would not say the pledge of allegiance." Kingston also whined that Obama does not wear an American flag pin, drawing an MSNBC anchor to note Kingston was also pin-less. "I will wear one and I have worn one!" Kingston retorted.

So far, the Obama Campaign has effectively battled the multi-pronged smear with several tacks. Obama often prebuts the charges in campaign speeches; his aides circulate fact sheets and ply voters with letters from clergy and generals; and his Internet team bought Google ads targeting smear searches, in order to draw the curious to a fact page with videos of Obama reciting the pledge on the Senate floor. The campaign's anti-propaganda ranges from the comically blunt, like a November announcement that "Obama Is a Patriot Who Loves His Flag and His Country," to fairly thoughtful offerings, like a video message from a minister at Obama's church, sharing her experience with confusion about his faith. The minister, Jane Fisler Hoffman, explains how she truth-squaded a woman who told a Muslim man that Obama was also Muslim:

"We overheard it and jumped in and said two things: First of all, there's absolutely nothing wrong with being Muslim. But second of all, Senator Obama does not happen to be Muslim. He's a Christian and he's a member of our church."

The "Fact Check" video drew over 55,000 views on YouTube, since the campaign promoted it last month. Hoffman closes by noting one predicament of rebutting the lies about Obama's religion: "We don't want to go around saying, ‘heck no he's not a Muslim!' -- as if that was a bad thing. It's not a bad thing. There are great Muslim people, but he doesn't happen to be – he's a Christian." And apart from the smear, Obama also speaks out on bigotry against a range of groups, including Muslims and immigrants. In a major speech this month, for example, Obama criticized the exploitation of fear to "turn" people against each other. "Fear can cloud our judgment. And suddenly we start scapegoating gay people, or immigrants, or people who don't look like us, or Muslims -- because our own lives aren't going well," he said, urging the audience to change that climate by standing up for higher principles.

Thus it was surprising to read Naomi Klein's argument in the new Nation:

So far, Obama's campaign has responded with aggressive corrections that tout his Christian faith, attack the attackers and channel a cooperative witness before the House Un-American Activities Committee. "Barack has never been a Muslim or practiced any other faith besides Christianity," states one fact sheet. "I'm not and never have been of the Muslim faith," Obama told a Christian News reporter. Of course Obama must correct the record, but he doesn't have to stop there. What is disturbing about the campaign's response is that it leaves unchallenged the disgraceful and racist premise behind the entire "Muslim smear": that being Muslim is de facto a source of shame. Obama's supporters often say they are being "Swiftboated," casually accepting the idea that being accused of Muslimhood is tantamount to being accused of treason.

True, they have aggressively corrected the record. But as the above links demonstrate, from the candidate on down, this campaign has also emphasized that there is nothing wrong with being a Muslim.

Yet Klein believes Obama must go further. "What he has never done," she writes, is "denounce the attacks themselves as racist propaganda, in this case against Muslims." The smears are clearly bigoted and offensive, to Muslims and others, and I think the campaign has denounced them as racist propaganda. But even if people expect more, in good faith outrage, let's remember that this is also bigger than Islam.

Like other right wing character assassination, the smear campaign is not simply aimed at the portion of the public exercised about Islam or the pledge of allegiance, anymore than swiftboating was only for the Vietnam generation. (About half of Americans do say they would be "less likely" to back a Muslim for president -- a summer poll showed 7% think Obama is Muslim -- while half say the same about a candidate over 70.) But the larger imperative is to undermine the character, credibility and honesty of the candidate, developing a resilient narrative to poison media coverage and stoke fundamental doubts about anything the candidate says. Just as Gore was attacked as a "serial exaggerator" and Kerry was presented as a man who "misrepresents" his record, this smear suggests that Obama has something to hide. Just listen to the smear operatives. Long after CNN debunked a false story about Obama attending a Muslim school from Insightmag.com, a right wing website, its editor told The Washington Post that "Muslim heritage" was "not so much" the issue. The real issue, he claimed, was Obama's supposed "concealment and deception" about his youth. Obviously the editor, Jeffrey Kuhner, has no credibility, but the response previews the playbook here. In this context, it is understandable that the Obama Campaign is focused on responding as bluntly and unambiguously as possible.

Comments (213)

1. what do you expect from soulless liars. the party of moral values!!!!

   liars. but this is the year they get their come uppance.

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 01:14am

2. and here come the fascists...

   3...2...1...

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 01:15am

3. Good job getting this out, Ari. I am sick are tired of hearing people claim Obama is a "secret muslim", and have been doing plenty of email responses to the variety of "Obama is a secret muslim" emails I've been getting. Make no mistake, there are those out there specifically targeting the jewish and christian communities with mass mailings of all kinds, as well as malicious internet sites. Its disgusting that in 2008, this would seriously hamper a black presidential candidate.

   Oh, and shut up Naomi Klein. You be the black guy named Hussein Obama running for president before you decide how much and what he should be condemning. Assuming Obama really WAS a muslim, it WOULD be a problem, since he's claiming to be Christian. There are those in the muslim community who wish to establish a worldwide caliphate, and would do so by secret means if they could. Though its completely unreasonable to think Obama is one of these people, being concerned about one of these people becoming an american president is certainly warranted.

   If it was happening, which it certainly isn't, and certainly never will!

   Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 01:17am

4. dammit! where are the fascists? guess in bed.

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 01:20am

5. Ibble, my post didn't count for fascist? I talked about an islamic caliphate, and suggested that I might not like to live under 13th century sharia law! Doesn't this make me a fascist these days?

   Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 01:24am

6. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 01:24am | ignore this person

   for some i guess. i have nothing against muslims except that they follow islam...lol...

   i think liberals do not understand its danger. they should read the koran and study up on it. with the exception of sufiism, alevism, and a few other groups i think it is a menace to secular western democracy - yeah, i get some flak for this, but i dont care.

   i also have a low opinion of fundamentalist, literalist christianity, but...living in the south i really see no need for another group of religious assholes trying to enslave me and destroy our secular democracy...

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 01:33am

7. RE: Why the Muslim ... Well, who says Mr. Obama is a progressive. Read this and you will see a typical despotism -I would say Mr. Obama is of Islam despotism in the mold of Kaddafi and Mahadjinehad (spelling?) of Iran.

   ------------

   Black backers steadfast for Clinton

   By: Josephine Hearn Feb 28, 2008 06:38 PM EST

   Rep. Diane E. Watson (D-Calif.), a black lawmaker and Clinton backer, said the intense lobbying for Obama would not alter her vote.

   African-American superdelegates said Thursday that they'll stand up against threats, intimidation and "Uncle Tom" smears rather than switch their support from Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton to Sen. Barack Obama.

   Posted by HelenDAO at 02/29/2008 @ 01:47am

8. Ibble, nice to see someone else on the Nation site with some sense about islam. I certainly don't have a problem with all muslims, but islam is cause for concern, especially how its being practiced now. You would think those that claim to support feminism and human rights would have the most problem with it.

   Funny how the so-called "feminists" of today seem so ready to provide shrill support to those who treat women like animals, but that's for another day...

   Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 01:48am

9. Posted by HELENDAO 02/29/2008 @ 01:47am | ignore this person

   good morning ms. dao! i just think the delegates who are elected officials should vote as their constituents did.

   but stop saying obama is/was a muslim, ok? its a lie, and winning is not worth such. you are better than that, dear.

   Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 01:48am | ignore this person

   oh yeah - most here are so blessedly decent and open minded they are blind to the ugly truth. but there are indeed a few "dexters" like me, thank god, who, being essentially evil (but oppositionally defiantly so) recognize the same when we see it. nice to meet you.

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 01:54am

10. A) it's Ahmadinejad, I have a good friend who is an Iran expert and I got used to typing that name quite frequently.

    B) Ms. Dao, your post is a non-sequitur, and I think there should be a rule against posting the exact same comment in multiple threads, as it's annoying and pointless.

    C) I happen to have a degree in Asian Studies specializing in Japan and Islam, and while I can tell you the several sources of the modern state of the Islamic world, by and large they mostly want to live their lives without too much interference, including from their fundamentalist brethren. However, Islamic legitimacy makes or breaks a government so they listen to the loud minority who pushes them to the strict interpretations of Sharia and the Qu'ran. But there's lots of blame to go around, and we are part of it.

    Posted by yutsano at 02/29/2008 @ 02:16am

11. Posted by YUTSANO 02/29/2008 @ 02:16am | ignore this person

    japan and islam? thats interesting. you of japanese extraction - "yutsano" sounds either japanese or basque, and i'd pick japanese...

    what do you think helendao is? i was guessing korean...

    regardless, i'm glad you identified that, probably have some more questions for you...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:21am

12. Posted by YUTSANO 02/29/2008 @ 02:16am | ignore this person

    like - taqiyya and kitman - what's your explanation of the concepts?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:23am

13. The Japan got in there because of my little brother turning me on to anime and it just snowballed from there. The Islam came from an excellent professor and my own interest.

    Not to break your heart, but I'm a mostly Euromutt LOL.

    Posted by yutsano at 02/29/2008 @ 02:24am

14. Posted by YUTSANO 02/29/2008 @ 02:24am | ignore this person

    kool...i read a history recently of the real last samurai - fascinating.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:27am

15. Posted by YUTSANO 02/29/2008 @ 02:24am | ignore this person

    anime? lol...

    anime [tinyurl.com]

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:39am

16. what do you think helendao is? i was guessing korean...

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 02:21am

    Just from the name I'm gonna guess she's from the Canton region of China (it's common to have an English name and a traditional Chinese name in Hong Kong) beyond that she's a rather unoriginal rightie.

    Posted by yutsano at 02/29/2008 @ 02:41am

17. Ibble, yes, haha, I do feel like a "Dexter" of the blogosphere!

    What a fine reference.

    Yutsano: "We" are to blame? Who is we, the west, or simply america? I imagine you mean the west, and I would say we are in no way shape or form to blame for the barbarousness of much of modern-day islam. Much of what we see today are simply islamic concepts from the 13th century being applied in the 21st. How could the west be responsible for the history of islam, islamic theology and islamic culture? We didn't write the Koran, or invent the caliphate. To think these things would simply disappear WITHOUT western influence, rather then because of it, is simply not true.

    Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 02:44am

18. Posted by YUTSANO 02/29/2008 @ 02:41am | ignore this person

    she's a clintonista i think. south china...hmmm...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:44am

19. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 02:44am | ignore this person

    well...for one we are THERE...

    two - i think our support of isreal has been a little too...rubber stampy...

    and, related to just being there...we screwed with the iranians back in the early 50's...

    its like playing with a hornets nest or poking a rabid dog with a stick...not wise...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 02:48am

20. Ibble, our support for israel, you must remember, took place mostly over the cold war. At that time, the USSR was supporting the arab states, so how can they complain about american support of israel?

    Yes, we screwed the iranians in the 50's, and the shah continued doing hideous things to them until 1979. I understand this, yet why the aggressive posture now? Many iranians like western culture and don't want us to be in constant conflict. I think its, again, the islamic fundamentalists who are souring relations.

    Yes, NOW we are there in iraq, where we shouldn't be. This, however, postdates radical islam by a few centuries.

    Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 03:02am

21. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 02:44am

    I'd agree with Yutsano that most Muslims are regular folk who just want to live the best lives they can.

    Islamism (as it's been called) is the pernicious force and our actions (both the West and the US more specifically) have been part of the catalyst for its rise. If we take religion out of the equation for a moment and look at the history of the Middle East over the past century or so, much of what was once a proud, prosperous, advanced part of the world has been reduced to, well, less than that. Not only by the West, but in large part, through colonialism, aggressive capitalism, war, and so on.

    Islamism has been an incredible motivating force--the idea that the West has not only subjugated the people of the region, but has been attempting to pervert their relationship with God through commerce and consumerism motivates people who seethe with resentment already. It's similar to the way "liberty" worked in the colonies (I'm NOT saying that they are same, philosophically, but similar as motivating strategies). We look at Patrick Henry saying give me liberty or give me death and praise his dedication to a cause . . .

    I'm not saying they're right, but I think, like Obama says, trying to understand the complexity of the situation is much more likely to result in a satisfactory outcome than simply demonizing an entire faith and all the people who adhere to it because it's a convenient way NOT to critically analyze the situation.

    Posted by Rintrah at 02/29/2008 @ 03:03am

22. Rintrah, again, lets get the history right. The middle east was prosperous, but this was LONG before the european colonization of the 19th century. It was the moghul invasion that destroyed the golden age of middle eastern civilization, not the west. The west has brought prosperity and technology that otherwise would not be there.

    White people aren't ALWAYS to blame!

    Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 03:08am

23. While I was reading what the GOP tried to do in Tenn. I felt sick. The fact that there is a such a tangible fear concerning someone being a Muslim is deplorable. Of course, most of that fear only comes from the Evangelical right who believes we're in a culture war akin to another "Crusade." So I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but it just proves the misrepresntation and gross misunderstanding of the Islamic faith.

    And I read several comments saying Islam poses a danger to the West and that people should read the Koran for proof.... The reality is The Koran is just like any other religious text, it certainly has it's moments of deplorable violence and heinous sub-text that can be used to justify a myriad of things... however, so does the Bible. And while I do think Islam may need a refirmation of sorts in the Middle East, one cannot place the blame entirely on Muslims. Many of them have been opressed and margainilized for decades, with the help of course, of the good ole USA. Extremists have used this opression to their advantage... it makes it easier for them to market their brand of Islam. It makes extremism seem more attractive.

    I guess it all boils down to prespective, one mans freedom fighter is another mans terrorist as the saying goes.

    Posted by DoubleXstum at 02/29/2008 @ 03:44am

24. There are those in the muslim community who wish to establish a worldwide caliphate,

    this is nonsense. there is already a world wide caliphate, and it's called the US, with troops in a reported 145 countries.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:30am

25. full disclosure: I always wanted to be Elvis, now the secret is out.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:31am

26. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 01:33am | ignore this person

    this is an idiotic post. you ever read the old testament? 1.6 BILLION muslims in the world, and you can condemn them all? you must be god.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:34am

27. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 01:48am | ignore this person

    you are a clueless racist. have you read a newspaper? many women are abused and killed by their husbands right here in the USA. why do you think we have safe houses for battered women?

    Islam is a religion of the down trodden, that is its appeal.

    the white man has an ignominious history of striding across the globe with the bible in one hand and the sword in the other.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:39am

28. I hate to mention it, but...Islam is a religion, a common faith that binds people of many different national origins. Therefore, anti-Muslim slurs are indeed wrong and offensive...but they are not (by definition) racist. It's a different story, of course, if those slurs are also localized to the Middle East.

    Posted by Thrawn at 02/29/2008 @ 07:42am

29. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Thrawn

    would you agree that most muslims in the world are of a brown skin color? that makes it racist.

    what people call radical islam is mostly nationalism and anti colonialism.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:51am

30. Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 04:51am | ignore this person

    for another view:

    http://www.bede.org.uk/library.htm

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:57am

31. when Baghdad was destroyed by the mongols, it had a reported 80 libraries. arab culture has never recovered from that loss.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 07:58am

32. Posted by DOUBLEXSTUM 02/29/2008 @ 03:44am | ignore this person

    I agree. let's remember that terrorism is a means, it is the weapon of those who do not have planes, tanks and missiles.

    the American colonists used terror during their revolution, really a secession rather than a revolution.

    the contras that saint Reagan illegally supported were terrorists. the Yugoslavians used terror against the occupying Nazis.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 08:03am

33. has anyone ever heard of omar bradley?

    islamofacist to be sure..............

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 08:36am

34. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/29/2008 @ 08:36am | ignore this person

    cute

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 08:43am

35. "In 640 AD the Moslems took the city of Alexandria and burned the great library."

    Wrong. The Library contents were largely lost during the taking of the city by the Emperor Aurelian (270–275), who was suppressing a revolt by Queen Zenobia of Palmyra. In 391, Christian Emperor Theodosius I ordered the destruction of all pagan temples, and the Christian Patriarch Theophilus of Alexandria complied with this request, destroying also the remnants of the great library. The incorrect version given by MEGACEPH above has long been dismissed as an invention of Christian crusaders, who were eager to report on the "barbarism" of Muslim armies, and at the same time justify their own less-than-savory deeds. While the first Western account of the supposed event was in Edward Pococke's 1663 century translation of History of the Dynasties, it was dismissed as a hoax or propaganda as early as 1713 by Fr. Eusèbe Renaudot. Over the centuries, numerous succeeding scholars have agreed with Fr. Renaudot's conclusion, including Alfred J. Butler, Victor Chauvin, Paul Casanova and Eugenio Griffini. More recently, in 1990, Bernard Lewis argued that the original account is not true, but that it survived over time because it was a useful myth.

    So, to the bigots who post here, pick up & cash your GOP checks before they bounce.

    Posted by sloper at 02/29/2008 @ 08:58am

36. Christopher Hitchens -- 'God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything'

    '...As I write these words, and as you read them, people of faith are in their different ways planning your and my destruction, and the destruction of all the hard-won human attainments that I have touched upon. Religion poisons everything....'

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 02/29/2008 @ 09:00am

37. So, to the bigots who post here, pick up & cash your GOP checks before they bounce.

    Posted by SLOPER 02/29/2008 @ 08:58am

    SLOPER...HELENDAO and the HILLARY people are pushing that too.

    Posted by Mask at 02/29/2008 @ 09:02am

38. Father Guido Sarducci ('Saturday Night Live', late 1970's):

    '...of course what he says, itsa, you know, baloney, but he says it so WELL!'

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 02/29/2008 @ 09:04am

39. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=HonestLiberal

    thanks for reminding me of this funny funny man.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 09:08am

40. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=GupDog

    and your proof of this is what?

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 09:55am

41. Posted by GUPDOG 02/29/2008 @ 09:42am

    Hey, there's an idea...McCain can say "I was held prisoner by Commies, Senator...and I know 'em. Why else didn't you fight in the Vietnam War, huh?"

    Obama: "Because I was in elementary school?!?"

    McCain: "That's no excuse, you were in Indonesia. You could have grabbed a rifle and gone out hunting for Charlie. Lots of kids your age back then could carry an M-16!"

    Obama: "Senator, are you insane?"

    McCain: (sotto voce) "No, actually just to trying to appeal to my nutty GUPDOG base. They still hate me for supporting amnesty and McCain-Feingold...and I need to throw some red meat to them every now and then. Sorry."

    Posted by Mask at 02/29/2008 @ 09:56am

42. Nice try, but no dice.

    Behind the rather long original post, the points are quite simple: A) The right-wingers have attacked Obama on "being a crypto-Muslim;" B) The Obama campaign has aggressively responded to this by saying "Obama is NOT a Muslim;" C) The author then goes on to list 3 (three) anecdotal examples where the Obama campaign has also literally said that "there's nothing wrong with being Muslim;" D) Therefore, Obama has done enough, so Naomi Klein can shut up, you all should stop asking for a more ethical stance and ultimately a better campaign.

    As an Obama supporter, I find this "reasoning" profoundly disturbing. Saying "there's nothing wrong with being Muslim" is much less than, say, Bush has repeatedly said about Islam and American Muslims over the past seven years. In that respect, Obama's meager statements on attacks against Muslims are well below par.

    Finally, the ultimate message of the post is distressingly conservative: "Obama has done enough, so stop asking for a better stance." And this is what supporting a progressive candidate means today?

    As someone who expects real change and a new attitude of fairness and justice in American politics, I find that we must demand more, especially on the racist and distressingly pervasive attacks on Muslims in the US. Even the rhetoric of the commentators on this board boil down to familiar tropes of bigotry: "Love the sinner, hate the sin," or "Love the Muslims, hate Islam," "Muslims are ok, but Islam is quintessentially wrong," etc etc etc...

    I, for one, do demand more. More from Obama on the attacks that use "Muslim" as a smear word. More from the Nation's commentators to articulate exactly what they expect from this candidate...

    Peace

    Posted by Muhammed? at 02/29/2008 @ 10:09am

43. I want to shirnk the Repug party down to the size where I can drag it's mis-begotten and inbred swine into the bathroom and drown them in the tub.

    All of them.

    Posted by Dr Decibels at 02/29/2008 @ 10:40am

44. Father Guido Sarducci ('Saturday Night Live', late 1970's):

    '...of course what he says, itsa, you know, baloney, but he says it so WELL!'

    Posted by HONESTLIBERAL 02/29/2008 @ 09:04am

    I have Guidos uncles dog, poor old dude could not care for him properly. I keep hoping that will get me in free to one of his shows, but so far no luck. But, he is a great dog. My wife worked for guidos aunt for years. One of his cousins worked for my father for a while, and another was my physical therapist. Good people.

    guido is a stitch. How many Popes did you find in the Pizza?

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 10:51am

45. Posted by MUHAMMED? 02/29/2008 @ 10:09am

    Vote for Nader.

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 10:53am

46. Posted by DR DECIBELS 02/29/2008 @ 10:40am | ignore this person

    I think the country by and large agrees with you, perhaps not in as graphic terms. the demise of a major party has happened before, to the Whig party, which became extinct.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 10:54am

47. The Islamo fascists are going to get your freedom fries!!!

    Be afraid.

    IBBLE, don't many Buddhists practice ways to kill people in "self defense"?

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 10:54am

48. Vote for Nader.

    Posted by CRABWALK 02/29/2008 @ 10:53am | ignore this person

    and throw away your vote. you will not influence events by voting for that old creep Nader.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 10:55am

49. Tuesday, October 12, 1999 Published at 10:37 GMT 11:37 UK

    Buddhist brawl in Seoul

    Hundreds of Buddhist monks in South Korea have staged a pitched battle over control of the country's richest monastic order.

    At least four monks are reported to have been injured as rival factions clashed in the streets in the centre of the capital, Seoul.

    Several policemen and journalists are also said to have been hurt.

    For 30 minutes, grey-robed monks, armed with makeshift weapons and hurling stones, bottles and furniture attacked each other at the temple.

    Police estimated more than 500 monks of the Chogye order battled alongside hired security men to defend the building - at one point they turned chemical fire extinguishers onto their attackers who were trying to take over the compound.

    Hundreds of riot police sealed off the area, stopped traffic and ordered local stores to close.

    It was the second major clash between Chogye monks in nine months.

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:00am

50. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 10:55am

    Did you vote for Kerry and/or Gore?

    What did that get you?

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:03am

51. Posted by CRABWALK 02/29/2008 @ 11:03am | ignore this person

    the 2000 election was stolen, perhaps the subsequent one too. the conclusion drawn from that would mean no voting, and manning the barricades.

    remember it's impossible to steal a landslide, and that's what the next election promises to be.

    you don't build a third party from the top, but rather from the bottom up.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 11:09am

52. Oh, Ralph is not a muslim, either.

    He does not want your freedom fries. Just that you eat fewer.

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:28am

53. Posted by CRABWALK 02/29/2008 @ 11:28am

    Nor is he EVER going to become President...nor will he get anywhere close to what he got in votes in 2000....nor is it likely he will do much better than 2004....

    nor will Obama bother with him.

    Posted by Mask at 02/29/2008 @ 11:33am

54. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 11:34am

    Not authorized a war in Iraq.

    Not given Chimpy every dime he asked for

    Not authorized torture, kidnapping and illegal spying or given immunity to corporations that broke the law.

    What has Hillary done for us lately? Obama?

    do you want change? Or more of the same with a little whipped cream and extra sugar?

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:37am

55. Emile, if you are breathing relatively clean air, drinking safe water, driving a safe car or have kids

    you are living what Nader has done for you lately. His accomplishments live on, so that you may simply live.

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:39am

56. TTFN. gotta go be a productive member of society

    Read you in a while.

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 11:40am

57. Kingston was also pin-less

    but certainly pinheaded.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 11:54am

58. "Fear can cloud our judgment. And suddenly we start scapegoating gay people, or immigrants, or people who don't look like us, or Muslims -- because our own lives aren't going well,"

    TA DA!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 11:56am

59. urging the audience to change that climate by standing up for higher principles.

    TA DA!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 11:56am

60. crab-Nader is the kind of person who heard both Bush and Gore speak and concluded that they were the same.One would have to be dumber than Bush to arrive at that conclusion.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 02/29/2008 @ 11:57am

61. that being Muslim is de facto a source of shame.

    OF COURSE IT IS! THEY ARE THE NEW JEWS. TIME TO PUT THEM IN THE "SHOWER" BEFORE THEY EAT OUR CHILDREN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 11:58am

62. Muslimhood is tantamount to being accused of treason.

    OF COURSE IT IS.

    JULIUS AND ETHEL ROSENBERG, PHILIP HANSEN, BENEDICT ARNOLD, WILLIAM JOYCE. ALL MUSLIMS

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 12:02pm

63. the Yugoslavians used terror against the occupying Nazis.

    Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 08:03am

    and don't forget the israelis against the british......

    and the miami cubans..............

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 12:05pm

64. There are those in the muslim community who wish to establish a worldwide caliphate,

    Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 01:17am

    THEY WILL EAT YOUR CHILDREN............

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 12:07pm

65. you don't build a third party from the top, but rather from the bottom up.

    Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 11:09am

    obviously,

    the greens here are gonna break through soon.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 12:11pm

66. right in osama's backyard the people threw out the fundamentalists.

    in the recent pakistani elections they were trounced.

    people want schools and roads.

    people with jobs and tvs don't look to lunatics for salvation -- they are too busy being happy.

    wanna stop the rise of fundamentalism?

    give people jobs.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 12:14pm

67. Boy talk about challenges and obstacles that Obama has to overcome. There has never been a presidential candidate having to overcome so much. What has been surprising to me is the way he has handled it all. For someone they claim is inexperience naieve and weak he is exhibiting strength that I've never seen in a political candidate. When he entered this race I'm sure he must have known that these types of things were going to happen yet he has spoken out agains scapegoating muslims, immigrants and entire countries because they have a dictatorial ruler. In some ways his background and message poses a challenge for America. On the one hand it shows the ugliness that we've subverted that muslims must have been suffering in this country and it also shows resilience as to whether we are capable of ending the politics of fear and division that has driven this country for so many centuries. Are we truly ready to turn the page?

    Carol

    Posted by harriscrl3 at 02/29/2008 @ 12:31pm

68. EMILE, I note your comment about Colonists using terror during the revolution. Could you site some examples, I mean on the order of,say mass executions by guillotine?

    As far as the people doing what they can to smear Obama with the Moslem thing, They are truely part of this countries' problem as are the Gores & Deans of the world. The other night HARDBALL had a discussion of whether or not McCain needs to court these vindictive zots or whether he was smarter by playing towards the middle by apologising for them. I agree with the latter: Being an optimist, I refuse to believe there are so many people in the country like Ann Coulter that it actually makes sense to court their votes exclusively.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/29/2008 @ 12:55pm

69. Posted by CHIP THORNTON 02/29/2008 @ 12:55pm

    From The Times

    July 20, 2006

    British anger at terror celebration

    The commemoration of Israeli bombings that killing 92 people has caused offence

    By Ned Parker and Stephen Farrell

    The rightwingers, including Binyamin Netanyahu, the former Prime Minister, are commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem, the headquarters of British rule, that killed 92 people and helped to drive the British from Palestine.

    They have erected a plaque outside the restored building, and are holding a two-day seminar with speeches and a tour of the hotel by one of the Jewish resistance fighters involved in the attack.

    Simon McDonald, the British Ambassador in Tel Aviv, and John Jenkins, the Consul-General in Jerusalem, have written to the municipality, stating: "We do not think that it is right for an act of terrorism, which led to the loss of many lives, to be commemorated."

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 1:07pm

70. FBI and CIA knowledge

    Luis Posada Carriles, a Cuban-born naturalized Venezuelan, was the Director of Counterintelligence at Venezuela's FBI equivalent, the DISIP, from 1967 to 1974. A U.S. Government document released through FOIA also confirms Posada's status with the CIA: "Luis Posada, in whom CIA has an operational interest - Posada is receiving approximately $300 per month from CIA". Posada was heavily involved with right-wing anti-Castro groups, in particular the Cuban-American National Foundation (CANF) and the Coordinadora de Organizaciones Revolucionarias Unidas (Coordination of United Revolutionary Organizations - CORU), led at the time by Orlando Bosch.

    According to documents Posada stopped being a CIA asset in 1974, but that there remained "occasional contact" until June 1976, a few months before the bombing. CIA had concrete advance intelligence, as early as June 1976, on possible plans by Cuban exile terrorist groups to bomb a Cubana airliner, and the FBI's attache in Caracas had multiple contacts with one of the Venezuelans who placed the bomb on the plane, and provided him with a visa to the U.S. five days before the bombing, despite suspicions that he was engaged in terrorist activities at the direction of Luis Posada Carriles.[2]

    A declassified CIA document dated October 12, 1976, a few days after bombing, quotes Posada as saying, a few days after a plate fund-raising meeting for CORU held around September 15, "We are going to hit a Cuban airliner... Orlando has the details" (Source Comment: The identites of "We" and "Orlando" were not known at the time.) [3].

    A declassified FBI document dated October 21, 1976, quotes CORU member Secundino Carrera as stating that CORU "was responsible for the bombing of the Cubana Airlines DC-8 on October 6, 1976... this bombing and the resulting deaths were fully justified because CORU was at war with the Fidel Castro regime." Carrera also expressed his pleasure over the attention paid to the United States over the bombing, as it was taking attention off of himself and his associate. [4]

    Documents released by the National Security Archive on May 3, 2007 reveal the links Posada had to the 1976 Cubana airline bombing and other terrorist attacks and plots, including a British West Indian Airways office in Barbados and the Guyanese Embassy in Trinidad. [5] These provide additional proof of Posada's involvement in violent efforts to undermine Castro's communist government, said Peter Kornbluh, director of the National Security Archive's Cuba Documentation Project. The Archive is an independent research organization located at George Washington University.

    Cubana Flight 455 was a Cubana flight from Cuba to Barbados that was brought down by a terrorist attack on October 6, 1976. All 73 people on board the Douglas DC-8 aircraft were killed in what was then the most deadly terrorist attack in the Western hemisphere. Two time bombs were used, variously described as dynamite or C-4.

    the hypocrisy is rampant..........

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 1:11pm

71. EMILE, I note your comment about Colonists using terror during the revolution.

    there were many attacks on Tory civilians reported. the Tories were also 'ethnically cleansed", ie violently expelled.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 1:16pm

72. EDITORS, why did you censor the list of Naders progressive accomplishments? ?

    WTF!!

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 2:00pm

73. Why would the editors of a "progressive" blog take this off their website?

    Open Letter to George W. Bush Dear President Bush:

    I was listening to your address before the self-described Conservative Political Action Committee gathering in Washington, D.C. last week, while reviewing materials on occupational hazards in the workplace. The contrast between your declarations and the ongoing annual tragedy of 58,000 Americans losing their lives due to workplace diseases and traumas (OSHA figures) was astonishing and deplorable. Your remarks included such phrases as "You and I believe in accountability;" "People should be responsible for their actions;" "Maintaining a culture of life;" and that "My number one priority is to protect you;" "All human life is precious and deserves to be protected."

    These are words and phrases that you have been using year after year in your capacity as a judicially-selected President who has sworn to uphold the Constitution and the laws of the land.

    Therefore, let us apply your verbal sensitivities about accountability, responsibility and the safety of working Americans, to your sworn duty to uphold the job safety laws of your Administration.

    Having been deeply involved in the creation of the Occupational Safety and Health Administration (OSHA) in 1970--during the Nixon Administration, I know that its principal mission was regulatory: to establish federal workplace safety standards, enforce them and upgrade them to avoid obsolescence.

    Although in its 37 year history, OSHA regulations and inspections saved many lives, the latter two-thirds of its history has witnessed a serious deterioration in its performance. It is now a captive of industry, under budgeted, understaffed with a consulting attitude rather than a law-and-order, live-saving determination.

    Under the Clinton Administration, not one chemical control regulation was initiated and issued in eight years. Under your regime, OSHA is dormant. Your Secretary of Labor ignores it where she does not actually operate to keep it asleep. Yet, on average, every week over 1000 Americans die from the workplace exposures.

    Under the Reagan Administration, the White House rejected an urgent request by the physicians at the Centers for Disease Control for a three million dollar budget to send certified letters to 250,000 workers found in a lengthy field study to be exposed to significant hazards--chemical and particulate--in their factories, foundries and mines. The letters were to urge the workers to have their doctors check them out for actual or incipient diseases. Instead, the workers were left defenseless.

    Last week, an explosive fireball imploded the century-old Dixie Crystal sugar refinery in Port Wentworth, Georgia, taking, at latest count, seven lives and causing many serious injuries. This is only the latest of a steady series of explosions, mine collapses, cave-ins at construction sites and other fatally traumatic occurrences.

    And who can forget the gripping, prize-winning series in The New York Times in January, 2003 that began with these words:

    "Tyler, Texas--It is said that only the desperate seek work at Tyler Pipe, a sprawling, rusting pipe foundry out on Route 69, just past the flea market. Behind a high metal fence lies a workplace that is part Dickens and part Darwin, a dim, dirty, hellishly hot place where men are regularly disfigured by amputations and burns, where turnover is so high that convicts are recruited from local prisons…"

    Tyler Pipe is owned by McWane, Inc. of Burmingham, Alabama, which is a very large manufacturer of cast-iron sewer and water pipe. Since 1995, according to a nine-month investigation by the Times, PBS and the Canadian Broadcasting Corporation, "at least 4,600 injuries have been recorded in McWane foundries, many hundreds of them serious ones." They included fatalities.

    Numerous coal companies were finally caught a few years ago faking their coal dust samples to avoid federal regulations designed to diminish coal miners' Pneumoconiosis. Fines for these deliberate violations were, as usual, slaps on the companies' wrists. Since 1900, more coal miners have lost their lives from coal dust and mine collapses than all the Americans lost in World War II. And that is just one industry!

    So, where is George W. Bush? The man who says his Job One is to protect the safety of Americans. Has he visited any of their disasters caused by corporate wrongdoing, not by natural disasters? Has he ever made a major speech or proposed a decent budget and stronger enforcement and authority for the federal worker safety and health agencies?

    Has he been maintaining "a culture of life" under an "accountability" framework? Does he believe that he and his top appointees have "been responsible for their actions." Not at all.

    Perhaps you are not worried about this lonely epidemic of death, disease and injury day after day, since it is not caused by terrorists. Even if every three weeks, workplace conditions lead to a fatality toll greater than 9/11. Imagine, every three weeks, on average.

    Remember Mr. Bush, you said "all human life is precious and deserves to be protected." This is especially so when the perils are so preventable by timely regulatory inspections and enforcement of up-to-date life-saving standards.

    It comes back, in the final analysis, to that oath of office you took, doesn't it, to enforce the laws under our Constitution whose preamble starts with "We the People." Not "We the Corporations."

    - Ralph Nader

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 2:03pm

74. WOAH!!

    Is this true? Did Matt Drudge out Prince Harry?

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 2:05pm

75. "Wait, what did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gasoline?" Bush responded to a reporter who said some analysts expect prices to soon climb that high. "That's interesting. I hadn't heard that."

    What, me worry?

    http://politicalhumor.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http://www.t henation.com/covers/alfredw/

    Posted by crabwalk at 02/29/2008 @ 2:23pm

76. oh my...

    well...look....

    there are indeed radical islamic groups who fantasize about a "world caliphate". sorry if it offends sensibilities, but both christianity and islam, when interpreted literally, are proselytizing religions, intolerant of all other religions and areligious types.

    i see plenty of those rushing to defend islam here ready to jump on christianity in a heartbeat...whats up with that? but both faiths, in their literalist forms, divide in their effort to universally convert, and encourage their followers to enforce themselves on others.

    mainline sunni islam and twelver shia islam tend to exhort their followers to do some not so nice things that are a threat to secularists and non muslims. how many christians are left in iraq now that we have removed the wicked old secularist, hussein and replaced him with theocratic thugs? how many women walk unveiled?

    sufism, alevism, seveners, these forms of islam i have no problem with, as well as alawites and druze...but these are not considered by many mainline sunni and shia clerics to be real islam, and are often persecuted themselves.

    i hear a lot of crap about peace and such from mainline muslim clerics, but they often omit the whole truth, which is that they have little tolerance for the existance of secular government and toleration. its often hilarious the difference of the message they broadcast to the non-muslim world (all salaam and smiles) and the sermons/speeches delivered in their own tongue to themselves (not all salaam at all...)

    "oh, but you harbi misunderstood! you don't understand islam! (and i didn't know you were listening!)"

    so when a danish mag publishes some cartoons offensive to them...thousands take to the strets killing and rampaging, demanding death, trying to censor...no understanding/respect for freedom of thought/expression. according to the koran to leave islam is punishable by death.

    and i'm not even a dhimmi - you christians out there are at least "people of the book". islam simply preaches your enslavement and taxation...it says i just get killed!

    guess i could use some taqiyya and pretend to believe what they do and save my own skin. wow - great way to live...

    but for all my reservations about my own civilization, at least i can come here and say pretty much whatever i want without fear of reprisal...although i look at the situation in europe a la the danish cartoon flap and wonder, with the increase of muslims here how long i will be able to do that...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 2:36pm

77. Posted by CRABWALK 02/29/2008 @ 11:00am | ignore this person

    yeah sure - that was shameful - but not a result of the teachings of buddhism.

    EMILE - do certain buddhist traditions teach self defense? hell yeah! in a world with buzillions who would impose their religions forcefully it would be stupid not to. should one allow one's own pacifism and decency and tolerance to ennable one's destruction at the hands of those who share such not?

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 2:41pm

78. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 2:36pm

    BOO!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 2:44pm

79. EMILE, there were lots of Tory attacks on Patriots also. And being forced out of your area because of your politics is, especially in a revolution, where passions are high, par for the course. It is also a little different from being "ethnically cleansed". A study of 1940's Germany or 1990's Serbia will show the comparison to be way off base.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/29/2008 @ 2:47pm

80. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/29/2008 @ 2:44pm | ignore this person

    harbi...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 2:49pm

81. I note, EMILE, your comment about the Mongol destruction of Baghdad. Virtually everything of value was destroyed, and it reminded me of Husseins agiprop comments in 2003 that we were "The New Mongols" Ha! Perhaps the old boy should have learned his lesson from Caliph Mustasim, eh.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/29/2008 @ 2:57pm

82. Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 2:52pm | ignore this person

    BING BING BING!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 3:04pm

83. AWAKE. Save the West. Please! Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 2:52pm

    Better cash your Vatican check before it bounces.

    Posted by sloper at 02/29/2008 @ 3:08pm

84. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 2:49pm

    dude,

    no one ever heard of jihad 50 years ago.

    so why now?

    give people jobs and security and all the nonsense disappears.............

    of course fundamentalism is stupid, be it christian or muslim.

    and every religion has really stupid shit. every one.

    and great stuff, too.

    i suggest you start reading prof. cole (juancole.com)

    it pains me to see someone so otherwise intelligent caught up in hysteria.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 3:09pm

85. PLEASE READ the Koran.

    read the bible.

    actually, read the sacred texts of any religion

    http://www.sacred-texts.com/

    i've read the qu'ran. not for me.

    i've read the bible. not for me.

    i've read lots of other ones, too. no thanks.

    they all have good stuff. they all have nonsense.

    what you are seeing in reactionary anti-colonialism.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 3:13pm

86. The Muslims in the West pose our greatest "5th column" threat... see: the bombins in London, Spain and the attempted bombing of airliners and trains in Germany. And, oh, yes, 9-11...

    AWAKE. Save the West. Please!

    Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 2:52pm

    http://www.landoverbaptist.org/news1002/bookburning.html

    i'd say 1,000,000 dead iraqis......................

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 3:15pm

87. the hysterical anti Islam tone here disgusts me, and I will not read those who peddle this. this is very reminiscent of the anti jewish rants that preceded the holocaust in Germany.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 3:21pm

88. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/29/2008 @ 3:09pm | ignore this person

    no one ever heard of jihad 50 years ago.

    with all due respect...if by "no one" you mean "hard;y anyone in the west"...ok...

    so why now?

    its not 50 years ago - lots of jihadin' going on, lots of calls for jihadin', frosty...lol...

    give people jobs and security and all the nonsense disappears.............

    like when hitler gave "aryan" germans jobs and security? not so sure about that, but yes, in general there seems to be a correlation - except in wahabbist saudi arabia...

    it pains me to see someone so otherwise intelligent caught up in hysteria.

    it pains me to see someone so decent blinded to ugly realities by his decency. my opinion was once a lot closer to yours until i began investigating for myself.

    and for the hyperbolically inclined (you condemn 1.6 billion muslims!) relax - i do no such thing. indeed a lot of those 1.6 billion are indeed decent schlobs who don't give a rip about anything beyond living their own lives and many live under oppressive regimes. many would speak just as freely and question just as openly if they did not fear retribution at the hands of their less tolerant co-religionists...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 3:23pm

89. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 3:21pm | ignore this person

    hysterical? what did megacephalus's article say? i only speak/read english and spanish...but i suspect many non-muslim europeans are indeed getting a bit pissed off at muslims trying to censor their rights to free speech/expression.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 3:26pm

90. Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 3:27pm | ignore this person

    and the self hating ignorance of many PC'ers is absurd as well. i wonder...if the mongols had ravaged europe in the 13th/14th centries and the islamic world had risen to world dominance...would they have treated christian europe any better/differently than christian europe treated the islamic middle east? lol...

    who knows, but based on what i have come to understand of human nature, especially propped up by false universalist religions like islam (and christianity, for that manner) i suspect it would have been no better...

    at least european "christian" civilization eventually developped the enlightenment concepts that overcame much of such ugliness and enabled the foundation of secular societies which respect people's right to freedom of expression...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 3:35pm

91. and when i say "false universalist religions" i mean religions whose claims to universality rely upon converting all others to themselves as opposed to respecting the beliefs of others...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 3:37pm

92. EMILE DUBOIS : http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=GupDog http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Thrawn http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=HonestLiberal

    That's quite a few ignores Emile....you really don't have any desire to read anything that doesn't fit in to your narrow little view huh?

    Posted by TheCraftyB at 02/29/2008 @ 3:58pm

93. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=TheCraftyB

    actually none of these folks are on my ignore list, but I'm keeping an open mind on that.

    I will not listen to blatant racism, I will not listen to Nazis, and I will not listen to tedious people who come with the same revisionist crap that has been demolished innumerable times.

    you may characterize this any way you wish.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:06pm

94. That's quite a few ignores Emile....you really don't have any desire to read anything that doesn't fit in to your narrow little view huh?

    Posted by THECRAFTYB 02/29/2008 @ 3:58pm

    That's kind of his/her "thing", see.

    Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 4:07pm

95. I have found Thrawn, for instance , to be a reasonable discussion partner, civil, and cogent, though I disagree with him.

    these pages are a form of entertainment, and I intend to keep it that way for myself.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:09pm

96. Posted by THECRAFTYB 02/29/2008 @ 3:58pm | ignore this person

    watch out! you might be next!

    i only have one on my iggy list and thats a result of the obnoxious lengthy spammin, not the crazy content...though i am tempted to place ms. dao there also if she insists on simply lobbing mendacious grenades and not responding to attempts to engage in conversation. but her spamming is at least short and (not) sweet, so...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 4:10pm

97. Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 4:07pm | ignore this person

    I empty the list once in a while, but I have regulars who are perennials. this is my privilege, just as it was my privilege to change my nom de plume, from time to time.

    at no time did I change my views and style of discourse.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:11pm

98. Posted by MEGACEPHALUS 02/29/2008 @ 4:08pm | ignore this person

    nite. keep telling the truth.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 4:12pm

99. Matt, no need for the "her".

    Maasch has attested to my sex and my identity, as I have to his. he is incidentally one of the few you does not hide behind a pseudonym, something I have always lauded him for.

    Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:14pm

100. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 4:14pm

     I always took you for male, but a comment you made earlier on this thread...something about "as a woman", threw me.

     So you are Johannesrolf?

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 4:22pm

101. yes, mattman. he is johannesrolf.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 4:23pm

102. hi johannesrolf. i think you did change your style of discourse a bit, a few times anyway.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 4:24pm

103. maybe i should change my handle too...i was thinking "DEXTERSGROTTO" or something...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 4:27pm

104. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=loveloki

     hello my friend.

     sometimes this place does not bring out the best in me.

     that is one of the reasons I ignore the posters who set me off, to protect them and me. I am not blaming them, only myself.

     I thought the names of the John Wayne movies was kind of fun.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:30pm

105. thanks sloper, for bringing the possibility of the christian destruction of the library at alexandria into the discussion. i believe that is a more reasonable hypothesis. after all it was the christians who did order and carry out the murder of a prominenet professor there, hypatia.

     off topic sloper, but the other day on another thread, you accused myparadigm of being a clinton operative posing here. just so you know, myparadigm has been posting here for years. before this election season, myparadigm almost never even mentioned the clintons.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 4:31pm

106. Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 4:22pm | ignore this person

     you misunderstood that post. another poster used the phrase "as a woman" and I was questioning that, in a sarcastic way, mild sarcastic I hope.

     I have sometimes been challenged on my sometimes poor manners.

     I appreciate those challenges and have usually tried to do better.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 4:32pm

107. i suspected it was you, johannesrolf. for awhile now, though, i've known it was you. i was and am very glad to see you back. did i miss something with the john wayne movies?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 4:34pm

108. nevermind, johannesrolf, i remember now. that was very funny.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 4:36pm

109. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 4:32pm

     I didn't read the post it was in reference to apparently.

     Well, welcome back JR, but I guess maybe you weren't really "gone".

     I apologize if I may have ever insulted "Emile"; I don't think I would have ever done so to "JR".

     Perhaps that's an indication of my own tendency towards prejudice....

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 4:38pm

110. i like and respect E.D. and his earlier incarnation, J.R..

     we disagree on a couple of points, but so what? i never call his opinions stupid and never get insulted when he calls mine stupid.

     i'm just not easily insulted.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 4:51pm

111. ibble, there are many ways to reach the top of the mountain of enlightenment. so, there are enlightened muslims. and christians. these people do exist.

     my teacher, a japanese buddhist monk named gayuna sundima cealo, told me there have been buddhist on buddhist murders in japan over disagreements on living the proper way. cealo founded a group called monks beyond religion. they try to work against violence and division in the name of religion. there is even an american catholic priest in the group, father andrew of michigan.

     personally, i think the monotheists who wish to convert others are climbing a sheer rock faced cliff to the top of the mountain. while most buddhists, hindus and pagans are walking a gentle slope filled with wildflowers and mountain springs. because the monotheists are more difficult to be around does not make them demons. there seems to be a connection between monotheism and the philosophy, "no pain, no gain."

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 5:00pm

112. Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 4:38pm | ignore this person

     I was gone for a few weeks, it took great self control to read here without participating.

     warning: if you wish to leave this Kaffeeklatsch sans coffee, do not, repeat do not, keep reading here.

     Matt, I do not recall any insults, but I have enjoyed and will continue to enjoy reading you.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 5:01pm

113. personally, i think the monotheists who wish to convert others are climbing a sheer rock faced cliff to the top of the mountain. while most buddhists, hindus and pagans are walking a gentle slope filled with wildflowers and mountain springs. because the monotheists are more difficult to be around does not make them demons. there seems to be a connection between monotheism and the philosophy, "no pain, no gain."

     Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 5:00pm

     Where do the atheists fit in?

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 5:02pm

114. i don't know mattman. where do they fit in? the idea of atheism is so foreign to me. i'm not even sure i comprehend it.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 5:04pm

115. i do know that i love my atheist friends and have no desire to change their minds, mattman. but if you are talking about a spiritual search, don't the atheists count their own selves out by definition?

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 5:05pm

116. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 5:01pm

     I apologized as a sort of "just-in-case" precautionary measure.

     I appreciate your posts too, and see that we agree on many things.

     This site is addictive. My posting often interferes with my ability to do my job, as it is as I write this. My wife says I'm "obsessed" and gets irritated when I do this from home, which is why I do it at work!

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 5:09pm

117. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=loveloki

     my cheesy dictionary defines spiritual as relating to or affecting the human spirit or soul, as opposed to material things.

     nothing about god in this.

     also don't forget about agnostics.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 5:13pm

118. Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 5:09pm | ignore this person

     yes, yes and yes.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 5:14pm

119. Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 5:05pm

     I can't speak for atheists-- I'm really not sure what I am. I guess agnostic(?) by default. I entertain the intellectual concept of God, and understand a spiritual order behind the universe, but I also feel that organized religion is a foreign concept for myself to grasp. I also understand that the conflicts associated with organized religion are part of a broader ideological battle; one of which my presence on this site will attest to my own involvement.

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 5:15pm

120. By the way Loveloki, did you ever finish Zeitgeist? I remember that you had started it, probably the last time I spoke with you.

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 5:20pm

121. Ari, Editors, fyi - just sent this to Common Dreams: Just came to the site, and see you've put Klein up front today. Normally, I'm a fan of hers. But during the past few weeks I've begun to notice how many leftist writers can't wait to give Obama (though strangely, not Clinton) all kinds of advice about how to shoot himself in the foot. He's made it this far because he and Axelrod have been wise about when to respond, and also about proportionality...whether they're responding to Clinton/Penn's crazy-making, ugly tactics, McCain's ill-concealed rage-based belittling, or, in this case, and thankfully by ignoring it, supposedly well-meaning advice from our dreamers on the left. The guy is being smart about not allowing anyone to distract his focus or derail/co-opt his agenda, which for the moment is to get elected. I'd about given up on The Nation putting out a counter to her view, but Ari Melber's response to Klein today is on the money. Why not put that on CD as well? ~saarinen Thanks for all your good your work.

     Posted by nsaarinen at 02/29/2008 @ 5:26pm

122. Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 5:00pm | ignore this person

     oh sure. shaved apes can ruin anything, no matter how beautiful. they can also exhalt and purify anything no matter how ugly.

     but i refuse to sugarcoat literalist islam (or christianity) because i wish i lived in a kinder, more tolerant world. i am an educated, intelligent, and critically thinking adult who is perfectly capable of sifting through information and picking out bullshit from fact. i don't always get it right, and i'm not saying i'm a genius, but i have not arrived at my conclusions (hyperbolized by E.D.) because i'm a "racist".

     if we are to have any hope of living in a truly tolerant world where real free speech, expression, concience, is accepted and protected we must see things as they are, and call a spade a spade, even if it means offending those easily offended as well as the spades...

     i don't want a group of violent intolerant people living around me who threaten violence if i choose to express myself in ways which offend and insult them. and that is what is indeed happening in europe.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 5:27pm

123. Regarding the destruction of the Library of Alexandria, I highly recommend "Life and Fate of the Ancient Library of Alexandria" by Mostafa El-Abbadi published in 1992 by UNESCO. Prof. El-Abbadi argues that the famous story of the Romans under Julius Caeser unintentionally burning the original collection of the library is in fact accurate, although he dates the destruction of the Museum to the 4th Century AD. It's been a while since I read this, so I can't remember if he touched on the debate over whether Mark Antony and the Emporers Augustus and Claudius tried to build the collections back up again, but he did a convincing job of demolishing the Islamic destruction theory.

     Posted by cka2nd at 02/29/2008 @ 5:30pm

124. Posted by CKA2ND 02/29/2008 @ 5:30pm | ignore this person

     as far as i can tell the history of both christianity and islam is riddled with wanton destruction of records of other's ideas. as is that of communism, fascism, plenty of others.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 5:33pm

125. Ari, Editors, fyi - p.s. - Just received a reply from Craig Brown at Common Dreams, who said Ari's piece will be up tomorrow. Voila! ~saarinen

     Posted by nsaarinen at 02/29/2008 @ 5:41pm

126. johannesrolf, point taken. atheists and agnostics can be spiritualists about the human soul.

     mattman, yes i did finish zeitgeist. its an interesting, thought provoking movie. the ron paul plugs make me wonder though.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 5:46pm

127. peace [tinyurl.com]

     love [tinyurl.com]

     tolerance [tinyurl.com]

     freedom [tinyurl.com]

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 5:47pm

128. thanks for the info, cka2nd. i wonder if i read a synopsis of that book. it seems familiar.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 5:49pm

129. the ron paul plugs make me wonder though.

     Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 5:46pm

     Weird. I don't remember those. I'll have to watch it again and watch for them. At what point in the movie do they appear?

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 6:03pm

130. they aren't in the movie mattman. they are in a "take action" link.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 6:06pm

131. they aren't in the movie mattman. they are in a "take action" link.

     Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 6:06pm

     Ahhh. That's disappointing.

     Posted by MATTMAN at 02/29/2008 @ 6:10pm

132. Behead those who insult Islam [tinyurl.com]

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 6:17pm

133. still a good movie, though.

     Posted by loveloki at 02/29/2008 @ 6:20pm

134. Emile, great insults, and you call islam "the religion of the downtrodden"?? So saudi princes and kings are downtrodden?

     This sort of fawning over islam from the left is just pathetic. I can't understand it, since supposedly you stand against such things as the oppression and women and homosexuals... or do you?

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:06pm

135. a good movie? "The Dreamers" by Bertolucci. trust me.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:07pm

136. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 7:06pm | ignore this person

     he's a great guy as long as you agree with him. otherwise he'll call you names and finally just ignore you...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 7:10pm

137. A better movie, "The conformist" by Bertolucci, trust me.

     And you also might learn something, not just masturbate to that silly piece of porn you mentioned...

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:10pm

138. "the religion of the downtrodden"

     I am speaking of the more than thousand year history of Islam.

     incidentally the saudi princes and kings were installed by the British, as was the king of Iraq, and Jordan.

     as for the movie, tastes vary. I am well aware of the conformist, but that's what 38 years old? I also liked Last tango in Paris, as did a lot of other people.

     your prissy moralizing is to laugh.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:13pm

139. only a few decades ago good christians were lynching blacks and burning jews. is every christian who goes to church fawning over that?

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:17pm

140. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 7:13pm

     Well of course those who's ideologies are immoral dislike moralizing.

     Islam conquerd a good deal of africa and europe, and the people who converted typically did not do so because they felt they were downtrodden, but because they were impaled or slowly roasted over fires if they didn't. Why would you see aggressive islam any different then aggressive christianity?

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:18pm

141. more than one and a half BILLION muslims in the world. think about it.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:20pm

142. your grasp of history is pedestrian. Islam did not just spread by the sword, as incidentally christianity did as well.look where is has spread. all the lands that were colonized by the white man.

     you can't come to me with that juvenile shit. I am a historian.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:25pm

143. radical islam is a tiny fraction. they have not mounted any wars, merely some commando actions. they control no countries, have no armies, no air force no navy. their threat is grossly overrated by those who fan the flames of war.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:41pm

144. Emile, and did I say aggressive, violent, christianity was ok? It's clear to any rational observer today that while christianity has by and large reformed, islam has by and large not done so.

     Islam was spread to all the lands "colonized by the arab man", to use your historian's language...

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:43pm

145. while the Christans were burning people at the stake, the muslim rulers of Spain had a court that was tolerant of jews and christians.

     while medieval europe was under the yoke of church dogma and saw its scientits burned at the stake, the muslim courts of Baghdad kept alive and translated the greek texts that made the renaissance possible, made the enlightenment possible, and ushered in the modern world.

     the Ottoman empire which lasted far longer than the european ones, was a multi religious, multi ethnic multi racial one, and far more tolerant than the europe of the day.

     the first medical schools were there, the first universities were there. when european kings had no books, Baghdad has 80 libraries.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:50pm

146. Islam was spread to all the lands "colonized by the arab man", to use your historian's language...

     Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 7:43pm | ignore this person

     this is not true of Indonesia, not true of China, not true of India.

     don't come to me with your ignorant comments. I am a historian.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:51pm

147. it is not true of the Balkans. arabs are a minority of musilms, 20% I have seen mentioned.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:54pm

148. Yes, Emile, I do know the history of muslim spain. I really find it annoying that folks like you think bringing up muslim spain proves something.

     What year are we talking about, again? Early to mid 1400's? And yes, prior to the Monghul invasion, Iraq was great. What year did the monghuls invade again? We're talking about the 1300's now, right?

     Great to see that islam was tolerant and progressive six and seven hundred years ago. What was the real topic again?

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:54pm

149. Emile, yes, you're right, it was great, tolerant muslims like Tamerlane who did the converting in south asia.

     He was good at making pyramids out of human heads.

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:55pm

150. this is not true of the many former soviet republics. you simply do not know what you are talking about. send in the next asshole, cause you're done.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 7:56pm

151. The soviet republics were not conquered by arabs, but they were conquered and forcibly converted by uzbecs, etc.

     Again, we're talking about Tamerlane now, and the rest of the converted monghuls. Really great crew there.

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 7:57pm

152. the crowd erupts in wild applause and awards the matador both ears and the tail.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:00pm

153. You must be kidding me emile, you didn't even answer my comments!

     Why not, instead of supporting the unsupportable, you simply stop supporting it?

     Seems simple to me.

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 8:01pm

154. and so we speak of islam, the mean.

     but i surmise that we are all mean.

     and kind.

     and everywhere in between.

     all the time.

     william golding found the beast within the kids on the island.

     they were us (and them and those guys, too) at our (almost -- after all, babies wouldn't have survived)

     rawest.

     there was no beast except the one that resides in our core.

     and so,

     if i worship at the altar of the lord of jesus,

     if i worship at the book of the lord allah,

     if i worship at the holy idontbelieveormaybebelievesometimes,

     if i worship in the temple of power and stuffology,

     or the altar of the flying spaghetti monster,

     matters not.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     sure some "books" are crazier than others. but the capacity to commit terror is universal.

     and it is not the book,

     but mental disharmony

     that provokes the violence.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     isn't the family that is afraid to walk to school in the morning

     under a reign of terror,

     be it

     in the 'hood of detroit,

     the streets of tel aviv,

     the jungles of the congo,

     or in ramadi?

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     and so who are the terrorists?

     who are the enemy?

     we are.

     we are the beast.

     you and i,

     the jew, the muslim, the buddhist, the pastafarian,

     the butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker,

     the black, the white, the brown, and your sister, too.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     and who are our allies and saviours?

     of course it is you and i and them.

     our thoughts are all produced through a combination of

     of physiological structure,

     food we eat (literally, food for thought),

     and our environment.

     and so humans generally kinda all think the same thoughts.

     and most of the time,

     i contend to you,

     we like to think about

     food, sex, and sleeping.

     yep.

     we're humans.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     and if that human is content,

     fed and aaaaaahhh,

     they really don't think about their own personal beasts.

     and i feel the truest path to quieting the beast within us all,

     is not by fearing our equals but differents,

     but by trying to help them.

     help them live safely and happily and well-fedly,

     not by trying to enclose them in walls

     of stone,

     bombs,

     or dollars.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     call me naïve if you wish,

     that our brother's beast can be contained

     by the simple acts of being

     kind

     and generous

     and, god forbid,

     nice.

     for i, too, realize that it is naïve to think

     that humanity in its current condition can suddenly say,

     "hey, let's stop killing each other and build millions of universities of science and art and literature and economics instead"!!!

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     call me naïve if you wish,

     but the surest path to peace

     is not found across the globe,

     but starting in your heart.

     and then your house.

     and then your "tribe".

     and thus expanding it fractally.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     call me naïve if you wish,

     but when i was very young

     a man told me to dream of that day.

     and since then,

     even though my heart has strayed,

     and i have slighted my fellow human, animal and plant,

     his sage words have led me to be ever happier

     because i strive to help my fellow human, animals and plants,

     with ever growing commitment.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     call me a dreamer if you wish,

     but to dream in such a way is an honour,

     and to put that dream into action,

     is what "god",

     and not the "beast",

     truly commands us to seek.

     •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••••

     we ALL can terrorize,

     or

     we ALL can dream,

     the choice is mine and yours and theirs.

     i choose

     to dream.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:03pm

155. Frosty, quit spamming.

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 8:04pm

156. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/29/2008 @ 7:41pm | ignore this person

     I made little effort to disguise my true self. it is my love and respect for true christians, of which I do not consider you one, that drives my thoughts and writings. you are a hater and your christ has a sword in his hand.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:06pm

157. there seems to be a connection between monotheism and the philosophy, "no pain, no gain."

     Posted by LOVELOKI 02/29/2008 @ 5:00pm

     you've made me laugh quite loudly.

     thank you.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:06pm

158. Perhaps that's an indication of my own tendency towards prejudice....

     Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 4:38pm

     thanks for the advice.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:08pm

159. Where do the atheists fit in?

     Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 5:02pm

     same place we all do.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:09pm

160. It seems upon re-reading your post that you attempted to link the colonization efforts of governments with the religious faith of Christianity. Not something any reputable historian would err in attempting. However, with Islam, a much different story. Islam and the governments being one and the same.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/29/2008 @ 8:04pm | ignore this person

     you are insane. the history of south america is one of the sword and the cross. the history of africa and asia are the same. colonialism always has a christian component. you may jump in on the discussion, but you may not re write world history.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:09pm

161. which is why I do it at work!

     Posted by MATTMAN 02/29/2008 @ 5:09pm

     shit,

     i work at home.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:10pm

162. Islam was spread to all the lands "colonized by the arab man", to use your historian's language...

     I have completely demolished you and ridiculous statements such as this. and it was you brought up the early history of Islam.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:12pm

163. "The Dreamers" by Bertolucci. trust me.

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 7:07pm

     lol.

     i like the title.....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:13pm

164. that statement shows your collossal ignorance.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:13pm

165. not you Frost, of course. have you seen that flic? a Jules and Jim for our time.don't miss it.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:14pm

166. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 8:04pm

     "'Kill the beast! Cut his throat! Spill his blood!'"

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:17pm

167. Christian colonialism had a christian component, just as muslim colonialism (balkans, africa, india, south asia) has a muslim component.

     Wow, we're getting somewhere now. Out of curiosity, which one, christianity or islam, still behaves as if this was their grand era of expansion and colonialism???

     Posted by Stubine at 02/29/2008 @ 8:18pm

168. Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/29/2008 @ 8:10pm | ignore this person

     me too, or rather I avoid work at home.

     here's one for you Lib, I am currently editing my video of a new opera, "Elmer Gantry"

     modern operas are a little like baroque operas, they rarely get performed more often than their premieres. this one may have a chance for more.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:19pm

169. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 8:14pm

     for today,

     i've given up trying to reason with the beast.

     i've put in my spam.

     that's funny. spam is kinda made from pork.

     "The rock struck Piggy a glancing blow from chin to knee; the conch exploded into a thousand white fragments and ceased to exist."

     hey, i know,

     let's listen to the barbarians in action

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:26pm

170. http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/677/

     Indonesia is the country that has the largest number of Muslims in the world, and the majority of people in Malaysia are Muslims. But, no Muslim army ever went to Indonesia or Malaysia. It is an established historical fact that Indonesia entered Islam not due to war, but because of its moral message. Despite the disappearance of Islamic government from many regions once ruled by it, their original inhabitants have remained Muslims. Moreover, they carried the message of truth, inviting others to it as well, and in so doing endured harm, affliction and oppression. The same can be said for those in the regions of Syria and Jordan, Egypt, Iraq, North Africa, Asia, the Balkans and in Spain. This shows that the effect of Islam on the population was one of moral conviction, in contrast to occupation by western colonialists, finally compelled to leave lands whose peoples held only memories of affliction, sorrow, subjugation and oppression.

     · Muslims ruled Spain (Andalusia) for about 800 years. During this period the Christians and Jews enjoyed freedom to practice their respective religions, and this is a documented historical fact.

     · Christian and Jewish minorities have survived in the Muslim lands of the Middle East for centuries. Countries such as Egypt, Morocco, Palestine, Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan all have significant Christian and Jewish populations.

     · Muslims ruled India for about a thousand years, and therefore had the power to force each and every non-Muslim of India to convert to Islam, but they did not, and thus more than 80% of the Indian population remains non-Muslim.

     · Similarly, Islam spread rapidly on the East Coast of Africa. And likewise no Muslim army was ever dispatched to the East Coast of Africa.

     · An article in Reader's Digest ‘Almanac', yearbook 1986, gives the statistics of the increase of the percentage of the major religions of the world in half a century from 1934 to 1984. This article also appeared in The Plain Truth magazine. At the top was Islam, which increased by 235%, while Christianity had increased by 47%. During this fifty-year period, there was no "Islamic conquest" yet Islam spread at an extraordinary rate.

     · Today the fastest growing religion in America and Europe is Islam. The Muslims in these lands are a minority. The only sword they have in their possession is the sword of truth. It is this sword that is converting thousands to Islam.

     · Islamic law protects the privileged status of minorities, and that is why non-Muslim places of worship have flourished all over the Islamic world. Islamic law also allows non-Muslim minorities to set up their own courts, which implement family laws drawn up by the minorities themselves. The life and property of all citizens in an Islamic state are considered sacred whether they are Muslims or not.

     Conclusion

     It is clear, therefore, that Islam did not spread by the sword. The "sword of Islam" did not convert all the non-Muslim minorities in Muslim countries. In India, where Muslims ruled for 800 years, they are still a minority. In the U.S.A., Islam is the fastest growing religion and has over six million followers.

     In his book The World's Religions, Huston Smith discusses how the prophet Muhammad granted freedom of religion to the Jews and Christians under Muslim rule:

     The Prophet had a document drawn up in which he stipulated that Jews and Christians "shall be protected from all insults and harm; they shall have an equal right with our own people to our assistance and good offices," and further, "they shall practice their religion as freely as the Muslims."[2]

     Smith points out that Muslims regard that document as the first charter of freedom of conscience in human history and the authoritative model for those of every subsequent Muslim state.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:26pm

171. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 8:18pm

     my book is better than yours!

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:27pm

172. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/29/2008 @ 8:31pm

     my book is better than yours,

     sword maker.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:35pm

173. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=lvliberty1

     now don't get dopey on me. I'm not talking about scripture, I am talking about history.the colonialist church destroyed all the native cultures in their efforts to convert.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:35pm

174. it was also christians who supported the shameful slave trade. and yes, it was christians who put a stop to it. the latter however does not excuse the former. they did not invent slavery. the greeks had slaves, the jews of the old testament too. and christians of the roman era had them. there is enough shame to go around.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 8:39pm

175. here's one for you Lib, I am currently editing my video of a new opera, "Elmer Gantry"

     modern operas are a little like baroque operas, they rarely get performed more often than their premieres. this one may have a chance for more.

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 8:19pm

     i've always thought "the sneetches" would make an excellent ballet....

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 8:59pm

176. kind of like The Nutcracker?

     full disclosure: I have seen and taped enough nutcrackers to last a lifetime. now, I send someone else.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 9:02pm

177. I send someone else.

     Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 9:02pm

     i get mine cracked at home.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 9:03pm

178. time to jam!

     hasta mañana.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 02/29/2008 @ 9:04pm

179. Warts and all, I still like you.

     Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/29/2008 @ 7:41pm | ignore this person

     likewise.

     Posted by emile duBois at 02/29/2008 @ 10:23pm

180. Posted by STUBINE 02/29/2008 @ 8:18pm | ignore this person

     they didn't read my links, did they?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 11:13pm

181. we can argue medieval history all night, but its whats happening in europe and soon perhaps here thats most relevent...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/29/2008 @ 11:15pm

182. or what's happening in chad

     or the congo

     or sri lanka

     or falujah

     or colombia

     or palestine

     or kurdistan [hey isn't that bogey man versus bogey man?]

     or or or.............

     Posted by frosty zoom at 03/01/2008 @ 12:51am

183. I totally suscribe your opinion, Ari. I think that is exactly the aim of Reps at attacking: try show a "fundamental and basic flaw of character and/or unsurmountable distance from the mainstream public opinion". And they have succeded:

     Hillary, the 'arrogant and unsensitive', Gore, the 'lunatic inventor of the Internet and so biased', Kerry the 'aristocrat out of touch leftist'. Now is Obama, 'the middle of the road guy, half Christian, half Muslim, so don't expect him to be totally loyal'. Is it not a shame?

     Dems on the other hand, attack only the politics of Reps, not on the personality of them. Why don't we begin to do the same as them for example, with 'war-mongering' McCain who -as I have heard- is a person that can't control anger? Could we trust the Presidency to such?

     Posted by Frank42 at 03/01/2008 @ 04:19am

184. I suscribe totally your words Mr. Ari Berman. Personal attacks on "personality flaws" have been the aim of Reps over Dems. They want to show that Dems are not balanced, nor mainstream enough to conduct the country. And frankly, they have succeeded in selling that lies to the American public.

     Hillary: "the arrogant and unsensitive", Gore "the Martian, inventor of the Internet, weird", Kerry: "the aristocrat out of touch". Now they want to tag Obama as "middle of the road guy, half Christian, half Muslim, not totally loyal". That is a shame!

     Instead of that, reality is that Hillary is a social fighter, Gore a person that thinks ahead, Kerry: a patriot and justice lover, and Obama the breaker of barriers, the uniter.

     Why don't we do the same with them and attack Mr McCain as an enraged, war-mongering guy who does not look at casualties, but only wants to win?

     Posted by Frank42 at 03/01/2008 @ 04:31am

185. i don't want a group of violent intolerant people living around me who threaten violence if i choose to express myself in ways which offend and insult them. and that is what is indeed happening in europe.

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 5:27pm

     don't you live in NC?

     Try dissing Robert Lee in public, see what that gets you.

     Posted by crabwalk at 03/01/2008 @ 09:55am

186. EMILE, hi JR!!

     How are you? missed you and I missed you coming back under new plumage.

     As always, thank you for you historical context.

     Isn't the problem that religion gets twisted to fit the power needs of those that "lead"? And that their texts are so convoluted that one can get whatever interpretation one wants, al-la LUVSLIBERTY? (pun intended)

     Posted by crabwalk at 03/01/2008 @ 10:09am

187. i don't want a group of violent intolerant people living around me who threaten violence if i choose to express myself in ways which offend and insult them. and that is what is indeed happening in europe.

     Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/29/2008 @ 5:27pm

     did you ever protest the Iraqi war in public?

     I did.

     Good freedom loving God fearing Christian Americans were ready to rip my head off because I pointed out they shouldn't be afraid of Saddam Hussein

     Posted by crabwalk at 03/01/2008 @ 10:14am

188. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=crabwalk

     merci, mon ami

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 11:38am

189. We have more to worry from the Israeli lobby that the Nation of Islam. Obama was the true war monger when he said, "our relationship with Israel is sacrosanct"

     Posted by nursevic at 03/01/2008 @ 12:51pm

190. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=nursevic

     not exactly a nuanced post.

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 12:56pm

191. Violent civilian deaths in Iraq rose 36 percent in February from the previous month after a series of large-scale bombings blamed on al Qaeda, Iraqi government figures showed on Saturday.

     la surge, c'est finis. maybe what we need now is the super surge. yes surge the troops home.

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 1:01pm

192. you think religion is scripture quoting, I think it is good works.and mercy. the last one particularly is something you are not well acquainted with.

     I imagine you've read Elmer Gantry, or at least seen the movie.

     it was your kind of clergy that Jesus railed against.

     every religion has a sacred book. the proof is in the living.

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 3:04pm

193. http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=lvliberty1

     yes that's what you claim. your rhetoric makes me doubt.

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 3:49pm

194. mercy you have never given an indication of.

     Posted by emile duBois at 03/01/2008 @ 3:49pm

195. i also have a low opinion of fundamentalist, literalist christianity, but...living in the south i really see no need for another group of religious assholes trying to enslave me and destroy our secular democracy... ~~~Ibble, nice to see someone else on the Nation site with some sense about islam. I certainly don't have a problem with all muslims, but islam is cause for concern, especially how its being practiced now. You would think those that claim to support feminism and human rights would have the most problem with it.

     First of all, where is there a seculary democracy??? In America? Where every court requires swearing to tell the truth with hand on the Bible, UNLESS you insist on some other religious text? There is NO SECULAR democracy. Face it, guys!! In God We Trust, and borrow money from, only he's not paying it back once your home mortgage isn't paid!!!

     And okay, so you don't have a problem with Muslims, but you do with Islam. But your complaints are about the way Muslims treat people, particularly women. Then maybe you should read the Qur'an. Other than the fact that the generalization is pretty hideous, it is SOME Muslims, and particularly those who are either painted by political power (absolute power corrupts absolutely) or those who have suffered the oppressions of European colonialism and have therefore lost their resources, including a quality education, who are the abusers. Yes, I will say it-- they are either too powerful or too ignorant to actually follow the Qur'an's teachings.What is being called Islam in the West and in the East is so far from the realities, for the most part, it is laughable.

     So, if you have read the Qur'an and the Bible, and almost any other religious text, you would probably say what I say. Judaism is perfect. Jews are not. Christianity is perfect. Christians are not. Islam is perfect. Muslims are not. We, as people are basically universally screwed in the head and we take what God gave us and screw it up royally. Nope. I am not a fascist. I am an America. From a Southern state. Graduate school educated in comparative religions. I use proper punctation and spelling. I am a feminist, pro-choice liberal woman. I wouldn't support anyone trying to "take over the country" just because it would add another pile of BS on top of what has already been heaped up since the days of the founding fathers, especially those who either supported or ignored slavery. Oh, and here's the scary thing. I am a pre 9/11 convert to Islam, currently residing in a Muslim country, but still registered to vote absentee back home. I am not a fool. I a believer in the Qur'an and the sunnah.

     I am NOT voting for any church, mosque, or other religious institution. I take the separation of church and state seriously, though most screw that up badly. I am voting for a president that will help my mother continue to enjoy her retirement in peace, that will work on health care and education, gun control and the war on drugs and ending the wars in other countries, and who maybe has a better sense of foreign policy than that last few presidents (actually since Nixon, or maybe Carter), and maybe one that might help make retirement affordable and possible for me. Leave me in my mosque for my prayers, and I will leave whomever in her or his church. I don't vote in the mosque. I vote in a booth, where what I believe isn't an issue about God isn't the only force of my intelligence and ability to choose.

     Posted by LadyIman at 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm

196. surge |sərj|

     verb [ intrans. ]

     • Nautical (of a rope, chain, or windlass) slip back with a jerk.

     Posted by frosty zoom at 03/01/2008 @ 5:03pm

197. Wikipedia Islam Entry Is Criticized

     By NOAM COHEN Published: February 5, 2008 An article about the Prophet Muhammad in the English-language Wikipedia has become the subject of an online protest in the last few weeks because of its representations of Muhammad, taken from medieval manuscripts.

     In addition to numerous e-mail messages sent to Wikipedia.org, an online petition cites a prohibition in Islam on images of people.

     The petition has more than 80,000 "signatures," though many who submitted them to ThePetitionSite.com, remained anonymous.

     "We have been noticing a lot more similar sounding, similar looking e-mails beginning mid-January," said Jay Walsh, a spokesman for the Wikimedia Foundation in San Francisco, which administers the various online encyclopedias in more than 250 languages.

     A Frequently Asked Questions page explains the site's polite but firm refusal to remove the images: "Since Wikipedia is an encyclopedia with the goal of representing all topics from a neutral point of view, Wikipedia is not censored for the benefit of any particular group."

     The notes left on the petition site come from all over the world. "It's totally unacceptable to print the Prophet's picture," Saadia Bukhari from Pakistan wrote in a message. "It shows insensitivity towards Muslim feelings and should be removed immediately."

     The site considered but rejected a compromise that would allow visitors to choose whether to view the page with images.

     Paul M. Cobb, who teaches Islamic history at Notre Dame, said, "Islamic teaching has traditionally discouraged representation of humans, particularly Muhammad, but that doesn't mean it's nonexistent." He added, "Some of the most beautiful images in Islamic art are manuscript images of Muhammad."

     The idea of imposing a ban on all depictions of people, particularly Muhammad, dates to the 20th century, he said. With the Wikipedia entry, he added, "what you are dealing with is not medieval illustrations, you are dealing with modern media and getting a modern response."

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:40pm

198. ya, ladyiman, when i read the bible i think, wow! this religion is perfect! are you frikkin kidding me?! are you nuts? in my opinion, monotheistic religious texts really suck for the most part. i find them to be horrific. the three religions you mention are far from perfect.

     and i could really care less about grammar, but you shouldn't brag about how you use correct punctuation in a post filled with errors.

     Posted by loveloki at 03/01/2008 @ 5:42pm

199. Traveling to Europe's Dark Ages, one might expect to find newspaper headlines like these:

     Archbishop of Canterbury says sharia law to be incorporated into British laws. A Danish cartoonist is placed under indefinite police protection as three would-be assassins are arrested. Renegade Muslim author seeks country to protect her from Islamist fanatics promising to kill her. Alas, these are headlines from the past few weeks in modern-day Europe, where ancient values continue to collide with Western civilization. One does not have to be anti-Islam to be concerned as radical Islam clashes with Modern Europe. One does have to be blind -- or in dangerous denial -- not to be concerned that threats and violence from religionists, coupled with incremental accommodations and submissions by the soon-to-be "formerly" dominant culture, are leading to a darker age. Is that the land of Mordor in the distance? No, it's Denmark, where the cartoon controversy that caused Muslim outrage in 2005 continues to draw fire from the lunatic fringe. Three Muslim men have been arrested for plotting to kill one of the cartoonists, Kurt Westergaard, whose drawing showed the prophet Muhammad wearing a bomb-turban with a lit fuse. Wednesday, newspapers in Denmark, Sweden and Spain republished one of the infamous cartoons in solidarity with the Danish newspaper Morgenavisen Jyllands-Posten, which originally published the cartoon, one among a dozen, as an exercise in free speech. Replaying the events that previously caused so much trouble may be viewed as unnecessary -- and many American editors apparently see it that way. With only a few exceptions, most U.S. newspapers elected not to run the cartoons, sending readers to the Web for more information and, it would seem, self-defeat. But if you were Westergaard, now under indefinite police protection -- or author Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who needs protection wherever she travels -- you might think that the debate over free expression needs to be relentlessly aired no matter what the immediate fallout. Hirsi Ali, author of "Infidel" -- an autobiographical critique of Islam and the religion's oppression of women -- has been on the run since her co-filmmaker, Theo van Gogh, was murdered on the streets in Holland. Stabbed to his chest was a note for Hirsi Ali promising that she was next. In the wake of van Gogh's killing -- and threats against Hirsi Ali and the cartoonist -- one could easily make the safer decision to self-censor. Death for doodling seems hardly worth it. But giving in to intimidation inevitably leads to greater demands for special accommodation down the road. Which leads where? Follow the yellow brick to Canterbury, where the archbishop recently made a case for redefining the relationship between religious conscience and law to allow people to opt out of laws that contradict their teachings. Under that redefinition, sharia laws that permit gender inequality could be given a place within existing British code. The archbishop has been word-bombed with criticism, deservedly, though he characterized the response as an overreaction. No, an overreaction is a man who kills his wife -- or a brother who kills his sister -- for dishonoring the family under sharia law. Overreaction is murdering a filmmaker for exploring the abuse of human rights that can be justified under strict interpretations of sharia law. Overreaction is plotting to assassinate a cartoonist for Allah's sake because you don't get it. Underreaction to radical Islam and jihad gets Paris burned, artists killed, thousands incinerated by detonator airplanes, and archbishops advancing religious exemptions to enlightened law. A recent Gallup poll for the World Economic Forum found that a majority of Europeans believed relations between the West and the Muslim world are worsening. The brightest light in the Western world -- the one that flickers now in pockets of Europe -- is the freedom of expression that makes all other freedoms possible. Once that light is extinguished, then it may be too late, or too deadly, to react.

     Parker is a syndicated columnist for The Washington Post Writers Group. Contact her at kparker@kparker.com.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:42pm

200. At a lunch last year celebrating his 25th anniversary with Jyllands-Posten, Kurt Westergaard told an anecdote. During World War II, Pablo Picasso met a German officer in southern France, and they got into a conversation. When the German officer figured out whom he was talking to he said:

     "Oh, you are the one who created Guernica?" referring to the famous painting of the German bombing of a Basque town by that name in 1937.

     Picasso paused for a second and replied, "No, it wasn't me, it was you." For the past three months Westergaard and his wife have been on the run. Westergaard did the most famous of the 12 Muhammad cartoons published in Jyllands-Posten in September 2005 -- the one depicting the prophet with a bomb in his turban (above).

     The cartoon was a satirical comment on the fact that some Muslims are committing terrorist acts in the name of Islam and the prophet. Tragically, Westergaard's fate has proven the point of his cartoon: In the early hours of Tuesday morning Danish police arrested three men who allegedly had been plotting to kill him.

     In the past few days, 17 Danish newspapers have published Westergaard's cartoon, which is as truthful as Picasso's painting. My colleagues at Jyllands-Posten and I understand that the cartoon may be offensive to some people, but sometimes the truth can be very offensive. As George Orwell put it in the suppressed preface to "Animal Farm": "If liberty means anything, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear."

     Sadly, the plot to kill Westergaard is not an isolated story, but part of a broader trend that risks undermining free speech in Europe and around the world. Consider the following recent events: In Oslo, a gallery has censored three small watercolor paintings showing the head of the prophet Muhammad on a dog's body, by the Swedish artist Lars Vilks, who has been under police protection since the fall of 2007. In Holland, the municipal museum in The Hague recently refused to show photos of gay men wearing the masks of the prophet Muhammad and his son Ali by the Iranian-born artist Sooreh Hera; Hera has received several death threats and is in hiding. In Belarus, an editor has been sentenced to three years in a forced labor camp after republishing some of Jyllands-Posten's Muhammad cartoons. In Egypt, bloggers are in jail after having "insulted Islam." In Afghanistan, 23-year-old Sayed Perwiz Kambakhsh has been sentenced to death because he distributed "blasphemous" material about the mistreatment of women in Islam. And in India, Bengal writer Taslima Nasreen is in a safe house after having been threatened by people who don't like her books.

     Every one of the above cases speaks to the same problem: a global battle for the right to free speech. The cases are different, and you can't compare the legal systems in Egypt and Norway, but the justifications for censorship and self-censorship are similar in different parts of the world: Religious feelings and taboos need to be treated with a kind of sensibility and respect that other feelings and ideas cannot command.

     This position boils down to a simple rule: If you respect my taboo, I'll respect yours. That was the rule of the game during the Cold War until people like Vaclav Havel, Lech Walesa, Andrei Sakharov and other dissenting voices behind the Iron Curtain insisted on another rule: It is not cultures, religions or political systems that enjoy rights. Human beings enjoy rights, and certain principles like the ones embedded in the U.N. Declaration of Human Rights are universal.

     Unfortunately, misplaced sensitivity is being used by tyrants and fanatics to justify murder and silence criticism. Right now, the Organization of Islamic Countries is conducting a successful campaign at the United Nations to rewrite international human-rights standards to curtail the right to free speech. Last year the U.N. Human Rights Council adopted a resolution against "defamation of religion," calling on governments around the world to clamp down on cartoonists, writers, journalists, artists and dissidents who dare to speak up.

     In the West there is a lack of clarity on these issues. People suggest that Salman Rushdie, Theo van Gogh, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Taslima Nasreen and Kurt Westergaard bear a certain amount of responsibility for their fate. They don't understand that by doing so they tacitly endorse attacks on dissenting voices in parts of the world where no one can protect them.

     We need a global movement to fight blasphemy and other insult laws, and the European Union should lead the way by removing them. Europe should make it clear that democracies will protect their citizens if they say something that triggers threats and intimidation.

     Flemming Rose, the culture editor of Jyllans-Posten, is writing a book about the challenges of free speech in a globalized world. This essay originally appeared in The Wall Street Journal. Reprinted with permission of the author.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:44pm

201. Grand Mufti of Syria Threatens Europeans at EU Parliament, EU Media Silent

     Fjordman - 2/19/2008

     This information was brought to my attention by the blog Snaphanen. As a part of the deliberate merger of Europe and the Islamic world that is the policy of the European Union at the highest levels, yet almost never debated in European media, 2008 will be a "Year of Intercultural Dialogue," which means that Europeans will be bombarded with propaganda about how good it will be to submit to Islamic rule, and some veiled threats about what happens if we don't. The visiting Grand Mufti of Syria threatened Europeans over the "misuse" of free speech to criticize Islam. This has been carefully left out of the official EU reports from his speech at the EU Parliament.

     One of the EU Commissioners, or unelected pan-European Ministers, addressed the European press a while ago, hoping that they would participate in this brainwashing of the public. Not in those exact words, of course, but the journalists got the message, and disturbingly enough didn't seem to protest. This is the hallmark of a totalitarian state, where the authorities instruct the press on what to write and which ideologies to broadcast. That is what the EUSSR is rapidly becoming, as former Soviet dissident Vladimir Bukovsky has warned.

     Perhaps the most shameful aspect of the history of Eurabia is how the supposedly critical media has allowed itself to be corrupted or deceived by the Eurabians. Most of the documents about the Euro-Arab Dialogue place particular emphasis on working with the media, and the Eurabians have played the European media like a Stradivarius. A conference on "Racism, Xenophobia and the Media" in Vienna in May 2006 was coordinated by the EU. By the end of 2006, the network of media practitioners involved in the Euro-Arab Dialogue had grown to over 500 (pdf). These included people, media and organizations from all 37 countries of the Euro-Mediterranean partnership. European and Arab journalists produced dozens of recommendations on how to enhance their cooperation and promote "mutual understanding" between their cultures and religions in the media.

     Benita Ferrero-Waldner, European Commissioner for External Relations and European Neighbourhood Policy (read: Eurabian affairs), addressed the assembly of journalists. According to her, "we do not believe the media should be regulated from outside, but rather that you find ways to regulate yourselves. [...] 2008 is the European Year of Intercultural Dialogue, and I am determined that by then we will have made significant improvements in the level of mutual respect and understanding our communities have for one another. In the months and years to come we must reach beyond the elites to the man and woman on the street. That is a vital part of the fight against racism and xenophobia. And you will be the key to achieving that."

     This document is available on the Internet, but I doubt most Europeans have heard about it. Ferrero-Waldner also stated that "Freedom of expression is not the freedom to insult or offend. Hate speech is always abhorrent." The EU has in numerous agreements with Muslim countries made it clear that "Islamophobia" is a form of racism and hate speech.

     The EU is now practicing this media censorship. According to Dutch blogger Klein Verzet, the Grand Mufti of Syria threatened Holland: "Should it come to riots, bloodshed and violence after broadcasting the Quran movie by PVV-leader Geert Wilders, then Wilders will be responsible. This was said by the Grand Mufti of Syria, Ahmad Badr Al-Din Hassoun, Tuesday in the European Parliament, where he gave a speech at the invitation of the fraction presidents. If Wilders tears up or burn a Quran in his film 'this will simply mean he is inciting wars and bloodshed. And he will be responsible', according to the Grand Mufti. Al Hassoun thinks it is 'the responsibility of the Dutch people to stop Wilders'."

     If you read the official texts by the EU media, this threat has been totally removed. Euractiv.com, a website subsidized by the EU, reports today:

     No 'conflict of cultures', Islamic leader tells EU Parliament

     The Grand Mufti of Syria yesterday told MEPs that he did not believe in the conflict of cultures because "we are all building one culture", becoming the first religious leader to address the Parliament during the European Year of Intercultural Dialogue. A series of eminent religious and cultural leaders are set to address the plenary session of the European Parliament on the subject of intercultural dialogue throughout 2008. The Grand Mufti of Syria, Ahmad Badr Al-Din Hassoun, yesterday (15 January) told Parliament's Strasbourg plenary that perceived clashes of culture were instead conflicts of "ignorance, terrorism and backwardness".

     He stressed that although religion gave culture its moral values, "it is we who build civilisation", arguing that "we must create states on a civil basis" rather than a religious one. Moreover, he said there was "no such thing" as a holy war. Meanwhile, around 400 Muslim groups signed a charter last week (10 January) outlining their rights and responsibilities in European society. The charter contains 26 points, among which are clauses aimed at dispelling myths surrounding the link between Islam and violence and clarifying the term 'jihad'.

     In a separate development, a UN project designed to combat terrorism by promoting "cross-cultural understanding", particularly between the West and the Islamic world, began its first forum yesterday in Madrid. The 'Alliance of Civilisations' initiative, co-sponsored by Turkey and adopted by the UN in 2005, was proposed by Spanish Prime Minister José Luis Rodriguez Zapatero in the wake of the Madrid bombings in 2004.

     José Luis Rodríguez Zapatero was brought to power by the Islamic terror attacks in Madrid in 2004 and has been appeasing Muslims through his "Alliance of Civilizations" idea ever since. He has pledged to drum up EU support for building an undersea tunnel physically connecting Spain and Morocco, and thus Europe and Muslim North Africa. Zapatero claims this project will "change Africa and Europe." He's certainly right about that.

     Yesterday, the EU Commission's website for intercultural dialogue wrote:

     Grand Mufti of Syria: a single culture unites us all

     In a speech to MEPs on Tuesday on the subject of intercultural dialogue, the Grand Mufti of Syria, Ahmad Badr Al-Din Hassoun, stressed the value of culture as a unifying rather than a dividing force. Dr Hassoun was addressing a formal sitting of Parliament as the first speaker in a series of visits by eminent religious and cultural leaders in 2008, which has been designated European Year of Intercultural Dialogue. Opening his address, the Grand Mufti stressed that "there is one single culture" in the world, the culture of humankind. Indeed, he said, "we are all building one culture, so I do not believe in the conflict of cultures". Closing his speech, Dr Hassoun praised Europe today as embodying "a miracle" in overcoming two world wars and bringing down the Berlin wall without bloodshed. Seeing the European Parliament as a model, he called on the EP "to help us build a universal parliament". And since Damascus is this year the Cultural Capital of the Arab World, he asked the EP, as a practical gesture, to hold a meeting there "to show that the world is one".

     In his introductory speech, European Parliament President Hans-Gert Pöttering said "peaceful coexistence between cultures and religions, both in the European Union and in relations with peoples in all parts of the world, in particular on the other side of the Mediterranean, in the Middle East, is both possible and essential". He added "we must build an intellectual and cultural bridge across the Mediterranean, one founded on mutual enrichment and shared values".

     In 2006, the above mentioned German Christian Democrat Hans-Gert Pöttering stated that European school textbooks should be reviewed for intolerant depictions of Islam to ensure they don't propagate prejudice. He suggested that the EU could co-operate with the 56-nation Organization of the Islamic Conference to create a textbook review committee. Islamic countries are thus supposed to decide what is taught about Islam throughout the European Union. One would assume that "prejudice" against Islam will include any mention of almost 1400 years of continuous Jihad warfare on several continents, including Europe. This confirms my view that the only way to save Europe now, or even parts of it, is to totally dismantle the entire European Union.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:45pm

202. sorry about the spammin, but it seems few if any who poo poo my point checked out the first four links. here is the fifth - just too long.

     behead the infidel! [tinyurl.com]

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:51pm

203. Posted by EMILE DUBOIS 02/29/2008 @ 7:20pm | ignore this person

     yeah - scary...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:52pm

204. Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm | ignore this person

     whats a dhimmi?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:54pm

205. Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm | ignore this person

     if you left islam, what is the koranic penalty?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 5:56pm

206. Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm

     First of all, where is there a seculary democracy???

     • one day there will be such a place. not areligous, but secular.

     In America?

     In God We Trust, and borrow money from, only he's not paying it back once your home mortgage isn't paid!!!

     • god is chinese?

     And okay, so you don't have a problem with Muslims, but you do with Islam.

     • actually, i've "got a problem" with the beast in my heart. islam's always been nice to me.

     But your complaints are about the way Muslims treat people, particularly women.

     • my complaints are about the way people treat people.

     Then maybe you should read the Qur'an.

     • i do. i like the part where god says no to credit.

     Other than the fact that the generalization is pretty hideous,

     • aren't all generalizations?

     it is SOME Muslims,

     • some people.

     and particularly those who are either painted by political power (absolute power corrupts absolutely)

     • hey, that sounds familiar.

     or those who have suffered the oppressions of European colonialism

     • you know, the aztecs were an empire, too. the europeans just got better at it. just as it is not muslims it is not europeans. it is people. it is you and i.

     and have therefore lost their resources,

     • you mean like the forests of canada?

     including a quality education,

     • first to go.

     who are the abusers.

     • ¿you and i? i choose not to. thanks, "god"

     Yes, I will say it-- they are either too powerful or too ignorant to actually follow the Qur'an's teachings.

     • well said.

     What is being called Islam in the West and in the East is so far from the realities,

     • a common ailment..........

     for the most part,

     • well, most people ARE cool.

     it is laughable.

     • it would be if it weren't so universal.

     So, if you have read the Qur'an and the Bible, and almost any other religious text, you would probably say what I say.

     • i can't. you are you.

     Judaism is perfect. Jews are not. Christianity is perfect. Christians are not. Islam is perfect. Muslims are not.

     • well, about the people, sure; nobody's perfect. but i about the faiths, (or more specifically, their representative texts) i do see imperfections.

     people are all kinda alike, but they don't necessarily live in the same environments. and so, the closer you look, the more digressions you will see from a species specific evolution. i think god "talks" to people in many different ways at many different times in a manner that is understandable and helpful for a certain population's progress.

     that being said, an ancient text, even e-mailed directly from" the big guy", is still written through human hands. and even if those hands are under god's infallible remote control, those texts are still interpreted by humans. and misinterpretations, under the premise of being correct, are amplified and allowed to "flourish".

     and so, what god meant at a specific place and time may no longer be applicable because those conditions just don't exist anymore.

     maybe god needs to send us a few updates. (zero sarcasm intended).

     and so for me, it's important to search through a whole slew of "inspired writings", finding the ones that apply to my world. i just try to be "nice". if i read something that just doesn't seem "nice", i think well, maybe, it may just no longer apply to my world. i don't think god's too upset that i just look for the "nice" parts. i shall smite no one.

     We, as people are basically universally screwed in the head and we take what God gave us and screw it up royally.

     • yep. and we also can take what god gave us and produce the sublime. we just gotta tighten up them headscrews.

     Nope. I am not a fascist.

     • good.

     I am an America.

     • you must very continental :+]

     From a Southern state.

     • grits are halal.

     Graduate school educated in comparative religions.

     • that must have been fun.

     I use proper punctation and spelling.

     • inglish iz goofy.

     I am a feminist, pro-choice liberal woman.

     • don't take cruises.

     I wouldn't support anyone trying to "take over the country" just because it would add another pile of BS on top of what has already been heaped up since the days of the founding fathers, especially those who either supported or ignored slavery.

     • more "not nice" interpretations.

     Oh, and here's the scary thing.

     • drum roll, please.............................

     I am a pre 9/11 convert to Islam,

     • no way. you mean like art blakey? can you play the drums?

     currently residing in a Muslim country,

     • how's the food?

     but still registered to vote absentee back home.

     • use canadian stamps. it may even get counted.

     I am not a fool.

     • we all are.

     I a believer in the Qur'an and the sunnah.

     • i like the forest.

     I am NOT voting for any church, mosque, or other religious institution.

     • me neither.

     I take the separation of church and state seriously,

     • heck yeah!

     though most screw that up badly.

     • darn.

     I am voting for a president that will help my mother continue to enjoy her retirement in peace, that will work on health care and education, gun control and the war on drugs and ending the wars in other countries, and who maybe has a better sense of foreign policy than that last few presidents (actually since Nixon, or maybe Carter), and maybe one that might help make retirement affordable and possible for me.

     • you're voting for me?

     Leave me in my mosque for my prayers, and I will leave whomever in her or his church.

     • i vote in a luthernan church, actually. i think they rent it to the gubbamint.

     I don't vote in the mosque. I vote in a booth, where what I believe isn't an issue about God isn't the only force of my intelligence and ability to choose.

     • cool.

     Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm |

     Posted by frosty zoom at 03/01/2008 @ 6:00pm

207. In Muslim tradition, the world is divided into two houses: the House of Islamic Peace (Dar al-Salam), in which Muslim governments rule and Muslim law prevails, and the House of War (Dar al-Harb), the rest of the world, still inhabited and, more important, ruled by infidels. The presumption is that by natural law these domains will compete and fighting is inevitable therefore the duty of jihad will continue, interrupted only by truces, until all the world either adopts the Muslim faith or submits to Muslim rule. Those who fight in the jihad qualify for rewards in both worlds--booty in this one, paradise in the next. For most of the recorded history of Islam, from the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad onward, the word jihad was used in a primarily military sense.

     dar-al-harb - house of war = non islamic world...

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 6:04pm

208. Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm | ignore this person

     what is taqiyya?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 6:05pm

209. So, if you have read the Qur'an and the Bible, and almost any other religious text, you would probably say what I say. Judaism is perfect. Jews are not. Christianity is perfect. Christians are not. Islam is perfect. Muslims are not. We, as people are basically universally screwed in the head and we take what God gave us and screw it up royally

     nope. sorry - don't think any specific religion is perfect nor is anybody perfect, except that nobady can be duplicated exactly so in a sense...

     but i find that both christianity and islam, as written, both encourage exclusivity and intolerance. christianity ultimately encourages violence de facto while islam does so de jure.

     if either are interpreted literally, that is.

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 6:10pm

210. so...gee...i read the words - but they don't mean what they seem? i see the pics of screaming fanatical muslims calling for death to artists, but being a harbi, i just don't understand the subtle nuances? really? must i convert to islam to understand words and pictures in such a way that black is white and white is black?

     or do i just have to be islamic and agree accept the theology to understand what disimulation (taqiyya) is and be comfortable with a religion which wants to institute a theocratic government that makes me a second class citizen, a dhimmi?

     Posted by LADYIMAN 03/01/2008 @ 4:40pm | ignore this person

     so if i drew a picture of mohamed surfing naked at a gay beach...i'm sure you would disaprove...would you call for my death? would you support government censorship of me? would you support those who try to kill me?

     would you not disimulate through the concept of taqiyya and lie to me and other harbi if you did?

     Posted by ibbleblibble at 03/01/2008 @ 6:21pm

211. It crossed my mind that Emile might be old JR. He used the phrase "This is Nonsense" which was a JR trademark

     Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 03/03/2008 @ 08:44am

212. so if i drew a picture of mohamed surfing naked at a gay beach...i'm sure you would disaprove...would you call for my death? would you support government censorship of me? would you support those who try to kill me?

     Nope, I wouldn't call for your death... Frankly, years before I was a Muslim, I would have thought that such disrespectful behavior by anyone would be punished in the afterlife (I always believed in heaven and hell). I leave it to God to sort out. Besides, to be honest, while I find the concept, the notion highly disprectful, I truly believe that you CAN'T draw a picture of the Prophet Muhammad or any of the others.. Not Jesus, Not Adam, Not Noah, etc., because we don't kwow what they looked like! And that is largely because both Islam and Judaism protected against idolotry by forbidding images. So you may think and wish to be able to do such a thing, but in the end, all you have created was a record of your intent to offend. The fact that you would choose to make such an image of Mohammed, over any of the other prophets means that you intend to offend Muslims. Which is a clear indication of racism. So if you want to be called a racist, that would be one way to do it. I know that there are many Muslims who don't share my point of view, but I just don't believe that if someone tells me to jump, I have to ask "how high?" So, anyone who wants to slap Obama with the label "Muslim" and he defend his right to be a Christian is okay by me (trying to relate it to the topic, you see). And any newspaper that thinks it is okay to print cartoons of any religious leader, go ahead... your economy will suffer boycotts in the now and your soul in the hearafter... Go for it. I think it makes the aggressor appear truly foolish when their attempts to offend don't cause a hotheaded reaction. I love to read the news and comments, but frankly, all this stuff gets boiled way outta proportion and people look for offenses where none was meant. (Someone thought I was bragging about punctuation and spelling... I was merely overcorrecting for the assumption that as a hijabi Muslimah, I must be dumber than a bag of hammers, LOL). I just want health care, to finish graduate school, a good education for my daughter, a decent retirement, and some happiness in this life. That's what took me so long to reply to all this... I was working!!!

     Peace...

     Posted by LadyIman at 03/05/2008 @ 05:02am

213. if you left islam, what is the koranic penalty? Moot point… It's like asking, if you left being whatever your race, gender, or nationality was, what would be the result. If you don't intend to do it, can you ever really imagine it? Besides, I came to Islam because I believed it can and is suitable for our time. Therefore I don't expect an Islamic penalty to rain down upon my head. I also don't expect to be one of a hundred wives, like the prophet Solomon had, nor do I expect anyone to actually be crucified in front of my very eyes, as what happened to Jesus before his ascension. I am amazed by how people throw the ancient practices in the face of Muslim in an accusatory fashion, but when it comes to using it to defend their own arguments, no problem… Come on!!! Quit looking for crap. Sheesh… Just admit it. You don't like Muslims or Islam and you wish that the whole thing would go away. Okay, fine, but who then would be the next target, hmmm??? Bigotry can't be settled that easily, can it? And for the others who mentioned jihad being used in the military sense, don't we use the word "fight" in a number of senses? I fight to get myself up in the morning, I fight to get my kid to do her homework, I fight with stupid taxi drivers, I fight with racist people on the internet... I guess their are many who take up arms and fight, too. But Jihad, as I am sure you have heard argued before, is not "holy war" but a struggle. There is the greater jihad, which is personal and the the lesser jihad which is military-political. Now, not all Muslims follow this, but the ruling is that it must be a war against an aggressor, and there are six rules about who or what cannot be harmed in this fighting. But I am sure you have already heard all of this and more and therefore, I won't bore you with the details. My point is, there more to it all that the media or a bunch of books is telling us. I don't pretend to know it all, but I do know that we should open our eyes and hearts and ask ourselves, How can those PEOPLE be so different from us PEOPLE. But hey, I am a child of Civil Rights parents, so I may have a bit of insight into struggle and non-violent struggle that others perhaps don't share.... hmm..... FROSTY ZOOM, I like what you wrote and I am going to mull it over more. Thanks for the comments. Just one quick response here… • you know, the aztecs were an empire, too. the europeans just got better at it. just as it is not muslims it is not europeans. it is people. it is you and i. Well………. Okay you are right. The Aztecs sure did run over a lot of weaker groups until Europeans ran over them. But I am not sure if I can accept your claim of "it is you and I". I happen to be one of those darker-variety Americans: something like ½ African American, ¼ Native America, ¼ white American… or something like that. I don't have it down quite like Tiger Woods, but the mix is there. We just weren't good at conquering anyone once we left Africa!!! I guess that is part of why I came back, LOL.

     Posted by LadyIman at 03/05/2008 @ 05:24am