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RedditIt is often suggested that there is not much difference between Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton when it comes to the stands they have taken as senators. And on the question of how the U.S. relates to Cuba – an issue that has suddenly moved to the forefront with the news that Fidel Castro is stepping down as the leader of the Caribbean nation – the candidates can sound similar.
When word came of Castro's move, Obama said the Cuban president's decision to hand power to his younger brother "should mark the end of a dark era in Cuba's history. ... Fidel Castro's stepping down is an essential first step, but it is sadly insufficient in bringing freedom to Cuba."
Clinton said, "The United States must pursue an active policy that does everything possible to advance the cause of freedom, democracy and opportunity in Cuba."
That's reasonably standard language for presidential candidates talking about Cuba.
But this is a case where the records behind the words really do tell different stories.
During their shared tenure in the Senate, and over the course of the current campaign, Obama and Clinton have taken different stands and sent distinct signals.
They have even voted differently on an issue that has provided a regular test of congressional sentiments regarding U.S. policy toward Cuba.
When the Senate has debated proposals to strip funding for TV Marti -- the always-troubled initiative to beam U.S. –produced television programming into Cuba, which in turn jams the signal – Obama has sided with those who argue that the $200-million propaganda campaign wastes money and good will.
Breaking with the powerful anti-Castro lobby in the Cuban-American community, the senator from Illinois voted twice to cut off TV Marti funding.
In contrast, Clinton voted to maintain TV Marti funding.
Last year, The Washington Post wrote that, "Obama spokesman Robert Gibbs said the senator's opposition to TV Marti was primarily about cost. But within Florida's large Cuban exile population, one of the most powerful voting blocs in the state, Clinton's and Obama's stances ally them with distinct groups: the older hard-liners and a younger, more progressive group of second-generation Cuban Americans and more recent immigrants whose numbers are growing."
Miami-based pollster Sergio Bendixen, one of the ablest analysts of campaigning on issues related to Cuba, says, "(Clinton) is going with the status quo." In contrast, argues Bendixen, "(Obama) is with the position of change."
It is not just on the question of funding for TV Marti that Obama is distinguished from Clinton.
The senator from Illinois says he wants to ease U.S.-Cuba travel restrictions, while the senator from New York would maintain the harsher policies imposed by the Bush administration. Obama went so far as to outline his position in an August, 2007, opinion piece written for the Miami Herald, in which he argued that, "Cuban-American connections to family in Cuba are not only a basic right in humanitarian terms, but also our best tool for helping to foster the beginnings of grassroots democracy on the island." As a result, he said, "I will grant Cuban-Americans unrestricted rights to visit family and send remittances to the island."
In that same article, Obama also raised the possibility of opening bilateral talks with a post-Castro government.
Those are hardly radical positions, and Obama is no friend of Castro's. He's criticized the outgoing Cuban leader over human rights concerns and said today that, "Cuba's future should be determined by the Cuban people and not by an anti-democratic successor regime."
But the Illinois senator's relative moderation on travel and diplomatic fronts has drawn criticism from several of his opponents, including Clinton, who argued when Obama wrote his Miami Herald piece that, "Until it is clear what type of policies might come with a new government, we cannot talk about changes in the U.S. policies toward Cuba."
The criticism from Republican John McCain has been even more pointed. McCain, who has campaigned with Miami Cuban exiles who support the Bush administration's tight restrictions against Cuba, is a hard-liner when it comes to U.S. relations with the island nation.
"(Freedom for the Cuban people is not yet at hand," complained McCain after learning of Castro's decision.
"America can and should help hasten the sparking of freedom in Cuba," added McCain. "The Cuban people have waited long enough."
Translation: McCain would be as belligerent, perhaps more belligerent, than the Bush administration when it comes to relations with Cuba.
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yeah, flippy mac! lets bomb 'em up some freedom!!!
yeah fifty foot pantsuit panderer...courageously take the meely mouthed stale-o lame-o safe path!
damn, barry o! stop making sense!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 3:41pm
Under JFK, LBJ, RMN, there were upwards of 200 US assassination attempts on Castro's life, according to CIA testimony before Sen. Frank Church's subcommittee in the '70s.
Billary fit firmly into this sterling tradition.
In & of itself, US policy towards Cuba may not be not earth-shatteringly major ... but is indicative of US policy on the wider world stage.
Do as we say ... or we'll kill you.
A rational approach?
Obama offers the hope, perhaps the promise, of more rational US policies, vis-a-vis Cuba & the rest of the world.
Billary do not.
And Mcc is succinct in his policy: 1) threaten to bomb, 2) bomb.
Posted by sloper at 02/19/2008 @ 3:52pm
and this is indeed indicative the genius of obama and the myopic conventional wisdom gagging repugnant lite stupidity of clinton.
obama offers an alternative to invading and forced "liberatin" and assasinatin' that might even appeal to the miami cubans....and articulates it a HELL of a lot nicer and more palatably than...i do...lol...
but pants suit patton must demean and demand just exactly like bush and the evil repugnant brain rust. "they gotta change and humiliate themselves and come kiss our asses before we will deign to treat them with even a shred of dignity. i'm tough!"
no - you, pants suit patton - are just as obnoxious and arrogant and myopic as the one you wish to replace...
do you even think your own thoughts, or are those pumped into your head from afar by an army of think tank stewed wonks?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 4:09pm
Anybody want to bet that Hillary REALLLLLLLLLLLY wants to seat the Florida delegation now!
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 4:12pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 4:12pm | ignore this person
touche! like a ginsu slicin' through jello!
i missed that angle completely!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 4:17pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 4:17pm
Sure, not only did she win it...now she can play the "Obama wants to shake Raul's hand DAY ONE of his Presidency" attack and claim that "Only SHE can win Florida, Barack will lose it for his 'soft on Castro' approach!"
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 4:25pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 4:25pm
heehee - don't let that pantsuit fool ya! pantsuit patton can be every bit as violently neanderthal and claptrappy as any ol mushmouth repugnant!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 4:30pm
ya think yankeegrits is watching?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 4:32pm
eek.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:33pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 4:33pm
sorry man - i've had way too much cofee today...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 4:37pm
"The United States must pursue an active policy that does everything possible to advance the cause of freedom, democracy and opportunity in [insert country name here]."
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:38pm
"The United States must pursue an active policy that does everything possible to advance opportunity in Cuba."
for whom?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:40pm
sorry man - i've had way too much cofee today...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 4:37pm
the "eek" was for the cuban people.
i do hope frank is watching and chimes in..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:41pm
.......now!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:41pm
"The United States must pursue an active policy that does everything possible to advance the cause of freedom, democracy and opportunity in [insert country name here]."
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 4:38pm
Darfur?....Rwanda?....Kenya?
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 4:43pm
In that same article, Obama also raised the possibility of opening bilateral talks with a post-Castro government.
damn straight he will
oil..........
(heck, i bet they'll even extend cubas boundary to the shores of sanibel island so they can drill EVERYWHERE. help! i'm drooling.......)
azucar........
"dancers"..........
nickel.........
tobacco.........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:47pm
Darfur?....Rwanda?....Kenya?
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 4:43pm
oops.
i meant that to be anti-bushclinton sarcasm........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:48pm
Darfur?....Rwanda?....Kenya?
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 4:43pm
those are very difficult questions arising from long standing stupidity.
of course i wouldn't expect any one nation to jump in and miraculously fix such insanity.
'scuse the confusion.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 4:51pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 4:47pm
shit - it'll be a gamblin' and whorin' tourist trap before ya know it yet! god bless america!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 5:02pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 5:03pm |
i don't have the freedom to travel there....thats not their government.
but kudos on rippin on ol pants suit patton, enemy of my enemy...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 5:12pm
It is too bad the Cuban people had to suffer through the "revolution" for 60 years in order to get a rice cooker, a Chinese bike, electricity 3-4 hours a day whether needed or not, and $ 20 a dya to show for it...oh, but they had free health care, so there...( I wonder who pays for it?)
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 5:03pm
its likewise too bad that 90% of the cuban people couldn't afford all that happiness enabbling stuff before the commernist revolution either - AND they didn't have health care. its too bad we didn't tell the obnoxious exiled cuben oligarchs in south florida to scew themselves long ago, start trading and normalizing relations with cuba, making a bundle ourselves in the process and possibly walmartizing them twenty years ago.
but...here we are...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 5:20pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 5:18pm
not unlike the penalty of a pre-castro peon for opposing our mob puppet, batista...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 5:22pm
It is not just on the question of funding for TV Marti that Obama is distinguished from Clinton.
The senator from Illinois says he wants to ease U.S.-Cuba travel restrictions, while the senator from New York would maintain the harsher policies imposed by the Bush administration.
I'm glad you are looking at voting records this time, Mr. Nichols! And I enjoyed your commentary on the Amy Goodman show this morning on NPR!
I think Obama could go further on the Cuban question. It is clear that the Cuban people were exploited by capitalist interests and their surrogates. These surrogates are what make up the majority of the Cuban exile population in Miami. They are essentially complaining about their inability to profit off poor Cubans.
As we have seen in Sweden and other countries around the world, socilism is not inherently evil and countries can do quite well by striking the right mix between socialist policies that ensure that the poor are taken care of and capitalist policies that drive innovation. It is even conceivable that "free and fair" elections in Cuba could produce a socialist government, which would highlight this Administration's "real" opposition (and Hillary's) concerning the inability of American corporations to exploit the Cuban people.
In the Amy Goodman report this morning, you noted that there is only a 2% unemployment rate in Cuba, which is significantly lower than neighboring Dominican Republic and Haiti. So while per capita income is not as great as the United States, I think if you ask a lot of Dominicans and Haitians, they would much prefer the incomes and social security of Cuba to their own countries.
It is therefore cause for concern, that "freedom" in Cuba is equated with adopting a US-style capitalist exploitation model. Entrepreneurship and small business ownership by Cubans may well be a good thing, but I don't think it requires throwing out the social reforms that provide healthcare, housing, and education for all and a "real" safety net for the poor.
Let's reframe the post-Castro debate as democracy versus dictatorship, and not socialism versus capitalism. And if Cubans "choose" socialism, let's respect this choice just like we respect the Swedes, Norwegians, Finnish, and Danish to make the same choice.
Posted by Metteyya at 02/19/2008 @ 5:37pm
I dont know why people think thta because Hillary and Obama are similar on the issues it means they are no differences between them. They are fundamental differences between the two imo. Obama seems to me to be confident in his choices. Hillary on the other hand seem more swayed by public opinion. Nothing is too controversial for Obama to touch or address. Hillary quickly backs off when it gets controversial case in point driver's license for illegal immigrants. She wasnt sure she supported it she seems to think its OK but then she backed off.
Carol
Posted by harriscrl3 at 02/19/2008 @ 6:23pm
This was informative, but about a relatively small issue. We need to just open up full relations with Cuba and lift the embargo. But is this a vote changing issue for anyone not from Cuba? Should it be?
When as the last time we had a post of this length on the candidates' positions on the Iraq War? There is this lie that is picking up steam which says that Clinton is anti-war, or just as anti-war as Obama. Not fighting that lie is only a bit better than telling it.
Posted by dentedpat at 02/19/2008 @ 6:24pm
Hillary on the other hand seem more swayed by public opinion.
I think I know what you are getting at in this criticism, but this is a strange way to put it. After all, in a democracy, isn't a politician who is swayed by public opinion better? Isn't it their job to be swayed by our opinions?
Posted by dentedpat at 02/19/2008 @ 6:25pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 5:51pm
well...sure. everyone who has less stuff than us would love to have as much stuff as we.
but especially in places like latin america where democratic processes have never flourished (with certain exceptions, to be sure) and where vicious aristocracies obstinately and violently oppose the formation of a middle class, sometimes a real reformer has to be as tough and nasty as those he opposes.
nowadays the cuban population, healthy and well educated...might be ready for true liberal democracy.
but the myth supported by the former cuban oligarchs that pre castro cuba was anything better than a miserable, repressive, typical latin american bannana republic hellhole is pure poppycock. a baldfaced lie...
the intransigence of the right wing miami cubanos, their arrogant rage, and inordinate influence on american polity...i think have all actually PROLONGED commie/castro tyranny and misery, because i don't think those guys ever gave a rip about "cuba" except for their own possesions and families.
i've lived in latin america and even the most progressive states are kind of shocking in this regard.
by the way...most non cuban american hispanics i've known rather dislike the miami cubans as a whole...so much for the myth of latino solidarity...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 6:31pm
and by the way - i DO love my asshole country. i just love my asshole country as it is, not as some kind of dewey eyed, nostalgized, lie.
power corrupts and we are no different in this than any other civilization that has preceded us. its actually rather amazing we are as decent as we are. still tolerate little bullshit...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 6:35pm
I do think there need to be some level of consistency in the candidates vision that can be garnered from their proposals and how they vote. The more consistency I see the more I believe this candidate is trustworthy. They are going to be some things that dont match up perfectly sometimes you change your mind the situation changes, but on a whole the consistency should be there. I dont like unpredictability in leaders. Actually I dont like unpredicatbility in anyone. If I know your vision and I know you are consistent I know what to expect. If you behave inconsistently within your vision then I dont know what to expect and if I dont know what to expect its harder for me to trust you.
Posted by harriscrl3 at 02/19/2008 @ 6:47pm
Posted by HARRISCRL3 02/19/2008 @ 6:47pm
That seems right, and that is what I thought you mean anyway. But there is this tendency in this country to talk about being sensitive to the wishes of the voters after you get elected as some kind of sin, and that strikes me as just an embrace of totalitarianism with term limits.
Posted by dentedpat at 02/19/2008 @ 6:54pm
Nothing has really changed in Cuba---and neither should are embargo. On a different note---anyone troubled with the quote by Mrs. Obama today--saying that this was the first time she had been proud of this nation????????????? Deeply troubling. First real mistake the Obama campaign has made in a while.
Posted by Len Mosse at 02/19/2008 @ 7:12pm
Drop the embargo...no reason we can't trade with a Cuban communist dictatorship, when we trade with a Chinese communist dictatorship!
(there, that ought to get BOTH sides mad at me...heheh)
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 8:00pm
So while per capita income is not as great as the United States, I think if you ask a lot of Dominicans and Haitians, they would much prefer the incomes and social security of Cuba to their own countries.
Posted by METTEYYA 02/19/2008
Of Course. That's why so many Dominicans and Haitians get on rafts to go to Cuba, rather than the US.... for the free health care and jobs...Yeah, that's the ticket!
Posted by TransitDave at 02/19/2008 @ 8:14pm
I want socialized medicine, just like Fidel!!
Posted by bleedingheart at 02/19/2008 @ 8:17pm
Posted by LEN MOSSE 02/19/2008 @ 7:12pm
As far as Cuba goes, maybe now we can start communicating openly with Cuba. I didn't think the embargo was working and the TV station was/is a waste of money.
I had heard about Michelle Obama's statement. I must admit, as a black woman, being proud of this nation hasn't been easy. I can't speak for anyone else but I wasn't disturbed by that statement. I was more disturbed when English fans booed the national anthem at the Mayweather/Hatton fight. I was pissed actually. It's like family. Noone else can criticize/make fun of my family but me. I might think my family is dysfunctional as a motherfucker but it's still my family and I can feel the way I want to about it. I'm sure black folks don't corner the market on that sentiment. So, I wouldn't consider the statement a mistake. I call it "grasping at straws". Again.
Posted by k330k at 02/19/2008 @ 8:25pm
Posted by TRANSITDAVE 02/19/2008 @ 8:14pm
The point I was making is that capitalism has not made many poor countries better off like the Dominican Republic and Haiti, and in some important respects, has made the people in these countries worse off as income inequality increases, the sense of community diminishes, and the social safety net collapses.
It is the failure of American-style capitalism in these countries that is putting these people on rafts, not socialism.
When America goes into one of these poor countries like the Dominican Republic, they are not focused on building up an entrepreneurial class of locally owned small businesses as envisioned by Adam Smith in "The Wealth of Nations", they are raping and pillaging the place with American multi-national corporations that are only concerned about their massive profits rather than making these countries work economically for the vast majority of the citizens that live there.
Posted by Metteyya at 02/19/2008 @ 8:45pm
Posted by METTEYYA 02/19/2008 @ 5:37pm | ignore this person
C'mon, METTEYYA, those poor Cubans have been deprived of all the progress we helped facilitate over the past half a century to the neighboring countries. Such joys as the genocidal violence perpetrated on the native Mayans in Guatemala passed them by under Fidel. Cubans missed out on systematic mass-killings, like the massacre of an entire village containing over a thousand men, women and children (the vast majority were women and children) in the remote town of El Mozote, El Salvador-just some of the 70,000 killed during Reagan's reign by our murderous death squad puppet regime- later cited by the sneering Cheney as a model of humaitarian democracy during the sprint to war in Iraq. That's one way to put union activist and men and women of the Catholic Church critical of the worst violence visited on that region since the Spanish Conquistadors in their place. And when American nuns are brutally murdered by our friends in a sociopathic junta government it was that courageous boot-strapper Jean Kirkpatrick who marched out to tell America that the nuns deserved it because they were probably communists or something--and congress better not interrupt the steady supply of weapons into the hands of those ruling over their citizens, lovingly, in our cherished death squad democracy.
Just because Cuba ranks highest in that part of the hemisphere among indices of health and educational achievements, right alongside Costa Rica (practically a wildlife preserve serving rich American retirees-- that doesn't even have an army), doesn't mean that we cannot knock them down to size, like all their long-suffering neighbors, after we subject those Cubans to a few years of good old fashioned Anglo-American style blood-sucking exploitation.
Yes, Cuba sure looks like hell on earth, so long as one fails to compare it with its neighbors.
Posted by Oustbush at 02/19/2008 @ 8:51pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 8:00pm
Hey we also trade for Diamonds from Sierra Leone, minded by one armed Africans. We don't care who we trade with! As long as their money is worth something.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 8:52pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 8:52pm
CCC, it's a trap...for both Left AND Right.
The Left says "If we just trade with Cuba, it'll eventually bring freedom and democracy to them!" The Right says "No, it'd be propping up a Communist dictatorship!"
The Left says "We can't keep buying cheap Chinese stuff...and it's from Chinese communists who employ prison labor!" The Right says "If we keep trading with them, it'll eventually bring freedom and democracy to them!"
So, the Right is hypocritical about trading with China and not trading with Cuba....
the Left is hypocritical about not trading with China but trading with Cuba.
I say screw it....let's get Nikes and Playstations from Cuba...shipping has GOT to be cheaper.
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 9:08pm
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/19/2008 @ 8:51pm
OUST, just so I'm clear, as long as a country has free health care and free education and its neighbors are poor....democracy can wait 40-50 years....right?
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 9:11pm
Hey we also trade for Diamonds from Sierra Leone, minded by one armed Africans. We don't care who we trade with! As long as their money is worth something.
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 8:52pm | ignore this person
These hypocrites will apologize and make excuses all day for the worst regimes of mass violence and brutality, but the moment a national leader attempts to muzzle American plundering of their economy or calls Bush a bad name, they're demonized. All the while, other countries we do business with are slaughtering their citizens in large numbers but so long as they are Yes Men to our multinationals they remain under the radar.
Posted by Oustbush at 02/19/2008 @ 9:11pm
freedom and democracy! freedom and democracy!" pfffft! that tired old mantra is about as meaningless as a fundamentalist cromwellian screeching "jesus is love" and condemming anyone who don't believe their close minded superstion!
"freedom and democracy" have ALWAYS taken second place in our foriegn priorities to "american business interest" in the real world. shit - the soviet union was the best thing that ever happened to american business and the real overlords of america.
heehee - when did we EVER support a real democratic regime over one of our stoolie right client dictactors willing to sell his schmuko nation downriver for a vacation home in miami and a big bundle of gringo cashola???
har har! then we won the cold war and...oh shit! now we gotta put up or shut up about all this bullshit hypocritical "freedom and democracy" propaganda crap we've been spewing since before 1945...har har!
hmmm...yeah...now we can invade and occupy bully them into some "freedom and democracy" now! oooh oooh - islamo fascism!
thank god some bugaboo showed up. we may have had to actually put up!!!!
ah, the delicious, wicked, hypocrisy of reality!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 9:11pm
OUST, just so I'm clear, as long as a country has free health care and free education and its neighbors are poor....democracy can wait 40-50 years....right?
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 9:11pm | ignore this person
Mask,
Do I endorse restrictions of freedom as a general practice. No. But considering what has happened to all the neighboring countries under U.S. influence, yes, I'd take the Cuban results over Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, The Dominican Republic, etc. Better to have no 'democracy' than be ruled by death squad regimes where instead of prison you get dumped in the local landfill body full of lead. To also introduce a splash of nuance: Cuba was essentially a colony of the US for half a century before Castro deposed the former dictatorship we supported, do you think being shut off from the largest consumer market on the planet doesn't harm them? What if Japan was black listed from America, or China?
Posted by Oustbush at 02/19/2008 @ 9:21pm
And to all those blathering on about Cubans leaving in boats: what's the difference between them and all the millions traveling by foot over greater distances, and fleeing those nations where the miracle of free market democracy has turned out to more resemble a rotting corpse among those shining examples of what Cubans can look forward to when the US gets it claws in them?
Posted by Oustbush at 02/19/2008 @ 9:27pm
I say screw it....let's get Nikes and Playstations from Cuba...shipping has GOT to be cheaper.
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 9:08pm
and cleaner!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 9:57pm
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/19/2008 @ 9:21pm
yep.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 9:58pm
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/19/2008 @ 9:21pm
So as long as "the neighbors suck"...a little free health care, a little free education....Ahhh, democracy ain't no biggie. Right?
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:20pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 9:57pm
Well for the fact that it'll be a shorter trip to get all those "cheap Cuban goods" rather than the Pacific Crossing for all those "cheap Chinese goods".
They'll be cheaper...therefore gobbled up faster...therefore Cuba's leadership will want to expand into NEWER markets of "junk" and factories will bloom like a thousand flowers (unlike democracy in the Middle East) across the island.
Oh, and as long as they keep the "free health care" and "free education"....we won't have to worry about them becoming a democracy and can cut back-room deals with El Presidente Whoever'ez.
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:23pm
Seven of the Obama campaign's top 14 donors consist of officers and employees of the same Wall Street firms charged time and again with looting the public and newly implicated in originating and/or bundling fraudulently made mortgages ... These seven Wall Street firms are (in order of money given): Goldman Sachs, UBS AG, Lehman Brothers, JP Morgan Chase, Citigroup, Morgan Stanley and Credit Suisse ... These latest frauds have left thousands of children in some of our largest minority communities coming home from school to see eviction notices and foreclosure signs nailed to their front doors ... According to federal data, people of color are three times more likely to have subprime loans: high-cost loans account for 55 per cent of loans to blacks, but only 17 per cent of loans to whites. If there had been equitable distribution of subprime loans, losses for white people would be 44.5 per cent higher and losses for people of color would be about 24 percent lower. more [tinyurl.com]
Posted by coolobserver at 02/19/2008 @ 10:25pm
Oh, and as long as they keep the "free health care" and "free education"....we won't have to worry about them becoming a democracy and can cut back-room deals with El Presidente Whoever'ez.
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 10:23pm
all right,
soon we can cover cuba with sludge!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 10:57pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 10:26pm
don't speak too quickly, mr. rubber money........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 10:59pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 10:26pm
oil imports to the u.s.
1 canada -- socialist weirdos
2 saudi arabia -- despots sitting on a powderkeg
3 mexico -- tamed for now
4 venezuela -- oooh, the bogeyman
5 nigeria -- more despots.
YOU GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:01pm
see Miami Cubans
~jm
oh, i "see" them quite well.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:40pm
will actually have a future of their own choosing.
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 11:33pm
given a democratic option,
and the fact the cubans have a pretty good perspective of the area,
they might just vote for more of the same policies,
minus all that muzzling nonsense, of course.
then again, disneypornoworld sure looks enticing on the ol' tv.....................
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:44pm
Obama's gonna give everybody free health care
~jm
where did you ever come up with such a ludicrous idea?
as if..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:45pm
Political upheaval in Cuba created new waves of Cuban immigrants to the U.S. In 1959, after the Cuban revolution led by Fidel Castro, a large Cuban exodus began. From 1960 to 1979, hundreds of thousands of Cubans left Cuba and began a new life in America, often forming the backbone of the anti-Castro movement.
i'm sure they were quite pissed.
Most Cuban Americans that arrived in the United States came from Cuba's educated, upper and middle classes.
ah, they could buy there way out
Like many immigrants, the Cuban Americans often had little money,
i bet the trip wasn't cheap
which was further exacerbated by Cuban government measures taken to prevent removal of wealth from Cuba.
ouch. no more sugardollars.
In order to provide aid to recently arrived Cuban immigrants, the United States Congress passed the Cuban Adjustment Act in 1966.
hmmmm, what's this?
The Cuban Refugee Program provided more than $1.3 billion of direct financial assistance.
SAY WHAT?
(What cost $1,300,000,000 in 1966 would cost $8,461,080,903.44 in 2007.)
They also were eligible for public assistance, Medicare, free English courses, scholarships, and low interest college loans.
So they escape socialism to become SOCIALISTS?!?!?!?!? (credit style to mr. mask)
Some banks even pioneered loans for exiles who did not have collateral or credit but received help in getting a business loan simply because they were of Cuban descent.
Well, that's nice. I wonder if they'll do that to help the victims of the NAFTA "revolution" when they arrive on u.s. "shores."
These loans enabled many Cuban Americans to secure funds and start up their own businesses.
i.e. votes bought
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 12:45am
"Do I endorse restrictions of freedom as a general practice. No. But considering what has happened to all the neighboring countries under U.S. influence, yes, I'd take the Cuban results over Haiti, Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua, The Dominican Republic, etc."
Quite. And so would the vast majority of people living in those "free" countries. Look for NO changes under Billary, perhaps some under Obama, invasions & assassinations under McC.
Posted by sloper at 02/20/2008 @ 02:00am
Latinos of the USA unite! Obama's "One Voice" // "Una Voz" de Obama... Please forward my bilingual video onward to TX and beyond: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8YNJ_eJy4I
Posted by nicknice at 02/20/2008 @ 03:24am
Posted by MARKCANYON 02/20/2008 @ 04:53am |
Odd, he has a problem with Cuba....but loved Nazi Germany?!?!?!??
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 07:22am
Has anyone noticed this article never directly says that Obama's position would improve U.S.-Cuba relations? It's very slippery.
When you think about it, why allowing "Cuban-Americans unrestricted rights" to travel and send money to Cuba be good, either for Cuba or the U.S.?
These Cuban-Americans are the same organized-crime mobsters and murderers who ran Cuba's gambling, prostitution and drug rackets before fleeing to Miami in the wake of the Cuban revolution. They have been attempting to assassinate Castro and subvert the Cuban economy and government ever since. Would giving them, and only them, the right to travel and send money to Cuba be a good thing, or would it be yet another prelude towards such U.S.-backed assassination/subversion attempts?
If Obama, or anyone else, really wanted to ease U.S.-Cuba relations, he would allow ALL U.S. citizens the right to travel to, and do business with, Cuba.
Posted by Naturally at 02/20/2008 @ 10:29am
If Obama, or anyone else, really wanted to ease U.S.-Cuba relations, he would allow ALL U.S. citizens the right to travel to, and do business with, Cuba.----Posted by NATURALLY 02/20/2008 @ 10:29am
Exactly...we shouldn't just let those nasty Cuban-Americans (who, as 'everybody knows' are 'all mobsters' from the Batista days)...
let EVERYBODY go to Cuba and set up businesses. All the Big Corporations...so they can set up factories in Cuba...and start shipping good (or not so good), CHEAP products out of Havanna....just like they do from China!
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 10:43am
Mask, all U.S. citizens are free to travel to Canada and Norway. Why should Cuba be different? I never said U.S. corporations should exploit Cuba. I got your sarcasm, but what's your point? Is there something wrong with allowing "everybody" to freely travel to Cuba?
Posted by Naturally at 02/20/2008 @ 10:54am
Posted by NATURALLY 02/20/2008 @ 10:54am
Read up the thread, NATUR....Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 9:08pm
I got no problem with dropping the embargo, Steve Wynn opening up 15 casinos (Hyman Roth-style) on the Cuban beaches, and USAirways and Delta starting up a Havanna hub.
And of course that means that Americans meeting with Cubans to work on opening up factories to sell items to Wal-mart, too!
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 12:01pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/20/2008 @ 12:45am | ignore this person
That was very nice Frosty. These driveling couch potato warriors of human rights whine about a government who, faced by decades of terrorist insurrection, responds by imprisoning some of its citizens, but excuse neighboring countries that regularly circumvent that process through wholesale butchery of their population. Pity the poor souls of Cuba who "languish in her jails" while ignoring the family members of the surrounding ‘democracies' whose loved ones vanished into mass graves. Castro distributing national resources to the impoverished is Satan while Contra terrorists who blew up schools, health clinics and murdered civilians were referred to by the conservative messiah, Reagan, as the "moral equivalent to our founding fathers."
Posted by Oustbush at 02/20/2008 @ 12:03pm
Mask, all U.S. citizens are free to travel to Canada and Norway.
Posted by NATURALLY 02/20/2008 @ 10:54am
sure,
but they have to take off their masks before we let them in.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 12:12pm
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/20/2008 @ 12:03pm
thanks dude. i appreciate your consistently fine typings.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 12:15pm
Frosty,
Since you are so connected to the Spanish speaking regions as a former resident of Mexico, here's a commentary from one of the lone voices courageously offering remedy to the fallacious propaganda spewed from the pages of the Washington Post and Wall Street Journal (as well as most other media organizations of lower ranking status but no less vitriolic towards leaders no longer collared by the leash of American multinationals.) The economist Mark Wesibrot regularly writes about Latin American issues and accurately addresses the numerous slanders and lies propagated by our big business stenographers in the media.
"This week's news that the U.S. Embassy in Bolivia has repeatedly asked Peace Corps volunteers and then a Fulbright Scholar to spy on people there is much more serious that it has so far been treated. In fact, together with other activities funded there by the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID) and National Endowment for Democracy, there are grounds for a Congressional inquiry.
These actions reinforce Bolivian officials' claims that Washington seeks to destabilize and even topple their democratic government. This has potentially severe consequences in a region where in recent years approval of the United States, and especially its foreign policy, have reached the lowest levels in the non-Muslim world.
These interventions are also morally reprehensible, and put the United States on the wrong side of a struggle for civil rights, justice, and equality that has much in common with our own civil rights movement of the 1960's. It is perhaps not surprising that the Bush Administration, whose party was on the wrong side of that struggle, too, would be intervening against the government of Evo Morales.
Morales, an Aymara Indian, broke more than 500 years of tradition by being elected Bolivia's first indigenous president at the end of 2005. While vowing to end centuries of discrimination against Bolivia's indigenous majority, who are much poorer than their compatriots of European ancestry, most of the government's measures have benefited the vast majority of Bolivians - of all ethnic groups. For example, the government's re-nationalization of its hydrocarbons industry - mostly natural gas - has brought more than a billion dollars of additional revenue to the government. (This would be equivalent to more than $1.4 trillion dollars in the United States). The government has begun to use this revenue to build hospitals and schools, promote land titling and land reform, and to increase social security payments for the elderly - a major anti-poverty initiative.
All of this has run into opposition from Bolivia's traditional elite, and especially opposition governors who want to keep the gas revenues in the provinces where the gas is located, rather than sharing more of it nationally. It is ironic that the United States ostensibly supports the national sharing of such revenues in Iraq, but not in Bolivia."
http://www.zcommunications.org/znet/viewArticle/16566
Posted by Oustbush at 02/20/2008 @ 12:51pm
I made an error in typing his name: it's Weisbrot, not Wesibrot.
By the way, that's very funny, footnoting Mask's !???!!!???!
Posted by Oustbush at 02/20/2008 @ 12:56pm
MASK said FRANKG & I have similariies....ok, see IF this is what FRANKG may say about this thread.....
The "Real Differences" is that BO is racially similar to the Cubans....mostly Mulattos (?sp?)....heheheheh! (strike that heheheheh, FRANKG doesn't do that :~)
Posted by Happy at 02/20/2008 @ 1:03pm
It is ironic that the United States ostensibly supports the national sharing of such revenues in Iraq, but not in Bolivia."
hardly ironic...........
peace corps?
the guy who wrote "economic hitman" talks about that and everybody dismissed it as "exaggeration"
how pathetic.
good thing they got our government already co-opted....
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:06pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 12:59pm
get those fingers fired up and respond to:
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/20/2008 @ 12:45am
as seen above.
i'm waiting to "see" if you "see" more clearly.
ándale brewmeister.........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:08pm
this idea that "cuba must change and kiss our asses and apologize for being socialist and flipping us the bird..." after our government...
a) attempted to invade them, a soverign nation...and...
b) repeatedly tried to assasinate their leader...
is indicative of the arrogant stupidity and disgusting national chauvinism, ignorance, and hypocrisy of too many of my fellow countrymen...
lets see...tried to invade them...repeated attempts on the life of their leader...
sounds like we were acting like TERRORISTS!!!!! and they must come groveling on their knees, promising to not be bad, apologizing, with lips puckered to suck our rectums?
FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY???? GOALS OF US FORIEGN POLICY????
har har har! dream on crazy dreamers!!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:12pm
Posted by HAPPY 02/20/2008 @ 1:03pm |
HAPPY, again, being obtuse or just acting that way? The sum total of similarity between you and FRANKGRITS I was talking about was...support for McCain.
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 1:12pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 1:12pm
I agree, IBB. Screw "freedom and democracy"...open up Cuba, cut deals with their leadership, build factories, and start importing cheap goods from them. Stop this Right-wing nonsense about Cuba and not dealing with communist dictators...and start Right-wing nonsense on dealing with communist dictators...like we do in China!
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 1:16pm
FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IS NOT FOR SPICS...SILLY BROWNIES!!!! CAPITALISM IS FOR YOU - OUR FORM OF CAPITALISM, BENEFITTING US AND YOUR VICIOUS WHITISH OLIGARCHS WHO ENFORCE OUR WILL FOR A BIG CUT!
and when that damned bearded hippy comernist whitish race/class traitor, fidel, sided with the majority of his impoverished, exploited, brownie countrymen and correctly targetted their tormenters (his own country's elite) and correctly identified/defied their tormenters' number one enabler - the FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY FOR US-WHO CARES AS LONG AS YOU AINT COMMERNIST FOR YOU UNITED STATES...
oooooooo! how dare that bastard point out our hypocrisy and win! cuba was practically our fifty first state! ooooooooo!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:22pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 1:12pm
TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS TERRORISTS
don't forget miami's darling,
"luis posadas carriles"
Luis Clemente Faustino Posada Carriles (born February 15, 1928) is a Cuban-born Venezuelan anti-Castro terrorist. A former CIA operative, Posada has been convicted in absentia of involvement in various terrorist attacks and plots in the Western hemisphere, including involvement in the 1976 bombing of a Cuban airliner that killed seventy-three people[1][2] and has admitted to his involvement in other terrorist plots including a string of bombings in 1997 targeting fashionable Cuban hotels and nightspots.[3][4][5] In addition, he was jailed under accusations related to an assassination attempt on Fidel Castro in Panama in 2000, although he was later pardoned by Panamanian President Mireya Moscoso in the final days of her term.[6][7]
oh, and the CIA new it was going to happen, AND DID NOTHING!!!!!
read this
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/19760622.pdf
and this
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0b/Cubana_flight_455_doc ument.jpg
and this
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB153/19761009.pdf
On May 8, 2007 U.S. district judge Kathleen Cardone dismissed seven counts of immigration fraud and ordered Posada's electronic bracelet removed. In a 38 page ruling Judge Cardone criticized the U.S. government's "fraud, deceit and trickery" during the interview with immigration authorities that was the basis of the charges against Posada.
hypocrites
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:25pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:16pm
socialist.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:27pm
And how much the land will bring to the owners.
~JM
what a cliché. mr. gringo goes straight for the land.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:28pm
and the banks are full of US cash..safe from the IRS...
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:25pm
ha ha
not safe from the fed, though......
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:29pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 1:16pm
and when indeed has FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY, especially in terms on latin america, EVER entered into anything more than hollow self congratulating, feel good propaganda, in our foriegn policy?
when has such EVER trumped economic considerations and - in latin america - our self proclaimed or unstated sense of "protector of our sphere of influence"?
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:16pm | ignore this person
just how ideology enabled ignorant are you, con-tard? bolivia is poor!?!?!?!?!!? really?!?!?!?!?
latin america is poor?!?!?!?!
bolivia is, historically speaking, the poorest, most miserable, landlocked bannana republic in south america. after a few years of enlightened morales rule, following CENTURIES OF EXPLOITATIVE BACKWARDNESS...gee...they are still poor!!!!
oooooooo! pure gringo capitalism triumphs agin!
FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY! SILLY SPIC! FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY AND SELF DETERMINATION ARE NOT FOR BROWNIE LATINOS!!! THEY'RE FOR GRINGOS!!!
please, enlighten me!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:30pm
...one can only hope it doesn't end up like Bolivia or Venez...
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:25pm
...or the Dominican Republic or Haiti!
Capitalism as an economic theory must be tempered by social reforms to address market failures that reduce people to "units of production" where only a few can get rich at the expense of everyone else!
Posted by Metteyya at 02/20/2008 @ 1:33pm
one can only hope it doesn't end up like Bolivia or Venez...
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:25pm
or detroit
or gary
or toledo
or flint
or butte [sorry, loki]
or newark
or cleveland
or buffalo
or st. louis
or philadelphia
or milwaukee
or new orleans
or el paso
or tucson
or pittsburgh
or cincinnati
or memphis
or baltimore
or tulsa
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:34pm
So they would no longer be tormented by one of their own, only to be tormented by..well.....one of their own, only more ah, progressive? (free health care)
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:34pm
if the cuban people had the balls to throw out batista,
you'd think they'd have the balls to throw out castro if they really wanted to.
especially with all that gringocubangrigo help available...........
but it hasn't happened.
do you see a revolution happening in cuba today?
fidel's gone, yet nothing has happened.
maybe they don't want to.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:38pm
and saved them for $ 20 a day income, or is it a month, ...but free health care...therefore freeing them from becoming..a "majority of his impoverished, exploited, brownie countrymen and correctly targetted their tormenters (his own country's elite).......they must be thrilled...since being freed from the tormentors of their own elite...only to be targeted by their own, ah, elite in fatigues, ...or wasn't that why they got rid of Batista?
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:34pm | ignore this person
my! you are so knowledgable! those poooor people!
yeah...they were poor before, and they are still, compared to us, poor!
like the vast majority of the rest of the world!!!! at least they are poor and not dying of poverty. at least they have some dignity, freed from the oppresion of their own vicious, hypocritical elites and our soul shattering condescension and self serving arrogance. and by god they have against all odds stood up to and stood down for forty years now, the most vicious, dirty, amoral attempts of the most powerful nation in the world to bring them down and economically. socially recolonize them!
and thats what gets wicked, ignorant, hypocrictical mammonist fantasylanders the most. they defied us!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:47pm
and i wonder how hard lined commernist they would be now if we had gotten off our hypocritical arrogant high horse twenty, thirty years ago and started trading/exchanging with them, stopped treating them like a breakaway colony, stopped allowing a tiny minority of hard line exiled cubans in south florida dictate our nation's policy?
who knows? they might have been long ago walmartized but for the pride of those who most wanted to walmartize them!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:52pm
Nothing has happened yet..wait until the Cubans are free to visit other countrys around them....I will reserve judgement on what they choose at that time..
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:48pm
right! step one - stop the stupid embargo and travel restrictions and flood them with a pack of money grubbing, fat, spoiled americans!
all bullshit aside, with an educated, healthy population, they are ready for and desirous of, a liberalizing of their economy. lets get the ball rolling on that by ceasing our hostile attempts to "break them"...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 1:56pm
Let the Bolivians do what they want...their business.
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:39pm
so same for the cubans, right?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:59pm
and the iraqis, right?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 1:59pm
Defied us? Who since Kennedy really cared?
the assasination attempts continued under johnson and nixon. reagan made it such a priority to oppose cuba that it caused a scandal in his presidency that only his creeping senility supposedly saved from causing real damage. to this day we insist on spending billions to pump fiery rhetoric encouraging cubans to overthrow their government which does not even get through their countermeasures to jam them...yet because a million or so fascist cubans in south florida riot when our government does not support their holy crusade against castro...WE KEEP THROWING GOOD MONEY AFTER BAD!!!
seems like we care...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:04pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 1:59pm
yeah - if cuba were the fiftyfirst state imagine all them brownies on teh welfare roles!!! much better to allow their own whitish elites to screw them and steal from them while we just sit back making the profits and babbling about FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY and feel good about ourselves!!!!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:06pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 2:08pm
well, after we financed, trained, and sent and invasion force against them, then made possibly hundreds of attempts to assasinate their leader...who else did we expect them to turn to if they wished to resist us? the french?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:13pm
all know the color of the world today is green...as in money and resources...
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 2:15pm
money based on what?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 2:18pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 1:30pm
Hey, I'm just going along with all the liberals here...."open up trade with Cuba and let Americans visit there".
Which would, of course, include the BUYERS for WAL-MART...right?
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 2:26pm
How is the over all economy doing in Bolivia? How is the oil and gas output doing? I seem to have read that the out put is dropping as in Venz. Can increased payments to the population be continued or will it run into the laws of econmonics? Any capital flight or decrease in investment from out side of Bolivia? Anyone else running to invest in a Bolivia in an industry which will be nationalized tomorrow? I believe the Bolivian and Venezeualan model are recipies for economic disaster and eventual collapse. It seems that the short run of these models do well until real economics hits them in the face, and then it is the colossus to the North, capitalist fault.
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 12:59pm | ignore this person
JOMAMMA,
Venezuela's real (inflation-adjusted) GDP has grown by 87 percent, since the government gained majority control over its national oil industry in 2003 (an important distinction to make is that they have not kicked out any foreign companies but merely increased their share of national industries to majority status.) The government is planning for unanticipated drops in oil revenues by budgeting at lower than expected cost per barrel (in 2007 the government used $29/barrel figure which was 52 percent below market prices) and maintains healthy amounts of savings in international reserves as a further precaution.
And it is worth comparing the previous oil boom of 1973-1977, where Venezuela saw GDP growth of 31 percent-much lower than today's numbers. Inflation rates are driving up food prices (along with high growth rates for workers--people finally have money to buy goods) but it is also important to compare the 19 percent rates today with the 36 percent when Chavez took office. Producers attempting to undermine the government are illegally exporting food out of the country to sell in Columbia, but the government is cracking down on this behavior.
Bolivia is also experiencing greater growth and overall improvements to public health than at any time over the past couple of decades. Bolivia did experience massive flooding early last year which somewhat dampened growth, though it was still far more respectable than what Bolivia suffered through pre-Morales years, when they were 'good little puppies' to their American masters.
Regional trading relations are developing among these countries, and because growth has been diversified and balanced, long term forcasts look impressive. Brazil and Argentina have been growing with economies not reliant upon energy exports and are cooperating with Venezuela to expand industries beyond oil. In fact, Argentina has done exactly what people like yourslef describe as impossible: defied IMF doctrine--yet, their economy has been growing along with rates comparable to China. Times are changing down south and the U.S. has marginalized itself for the past 7 years and that's why we see the public tantrums thrown by our corporate media and government policy planners.
Posted by Oustbush at 02/20/2008 @ 2:27pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 2:26pm
yeah.
what those cubans need is APPLEBEES......
then they will be free........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 2:29pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 2:11pm
any attempt to create a middle class in latin america capable of sustaining real democratic government and liberal economic market economy in the face of resistance from their own vicious elites propped up by our force, requires some redistribution of wealth and development of human capital in the form of establishing a healthy, educated populace.
in light of the vicious, reactionary nature of latin aristocracy and our historical support of them, i don't see much alternative to some form of socialist interregnum in order to achieve such a level of development. and considering the nature of their own elites i further more see no alternative to such an interegnum having to play tough with such a-democratic, reactionary, elites. thats all they respect!
the irony is this...
what if, instead of meddling in their affairs on the side of their own vicious, undemocratic, reactionary elites and hypocritically, condescendingly, arrogantly, violating their national sovereignty...
we allowed them to choose their own path? if our system is so superior to theirs, won't theirs naturally collapse eventually? and by violating their soveriegnty as we have time and again - we set ourselves up as the bad guys and provide radicals with a bete noir to rail against and rally their people to their side, thereby prolonging such interregnums when successfully instigated...
ironically, if we were to cease our hostile, illegal, interventionism and rhetoric and simple treat them as equals...we might be able to continue to do business with them (yes, on their terms in THEIR COUNTRIES of course), maintain a non-hostile presence, and gee - who knows?
why is it that a nation like france or sweden can maintain a socialist-esque system (at least as socialist as that of chavez or morales), yet we do not meddle in their politics nor hostilely condemn them? why is it that over the decades, whenever a latino reformer tried to institute economic/social reforms based on those of our very own FDR, we labeled them "commernist" and consistently intervened to install brutal, undemocratic, dictators?
freedom and democracy...really?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:29pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 2:26pm |
if that is what THEY want...sure! but the miami cubans are not cubans anymore. they are spanish speaking gringos!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:31pm
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/20/2008 @ 2:27pm
but but but! that goes against the gospel of the cato institute! thats not what the heritage foundation says!!!!!! that can't be!!!!!
what a pack of self serving, pseudo fascist liars...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:35pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 2:26pm | ignore this person
and furthermore...how can we even know what they want if we refuse to do business with them or even negotiate with them unless they accede to all our imperious demands and grovel for our forgiveness?
we're not the only people with pride issues here.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:41pm
freedom and democracy and self determination - OUR PRIVILIDGE, NOT THEIRS...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:45pm
they are spanish speaking gringos!
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 2:31pm
bought and paid for by john maasch et al.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 2:46pm
why is it that a nation like france or sweden can maintain a socialist-esque system (at least as socialist as that of chavez or morales), yet we do not meddle in their politics nor hostilely condemn them? why is it that over the decades, whenever a latino reformer tried to institute economic/social reforms based on those of our very own FDR, we labeled them "commernist" and consistently intervened to install brutal, undemocratic, dictators?
freedom and democracy...really?
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 2:29pm
maniflush destiny........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 2:47pm
Times are changing down south and the U.S. has marginalized itself for the past 7 years and that's why we see the public tantrums thrown by our corporate media and government policy planners.
Posted by OUSTBUSH 02/20/2008 @ 2:27pm
QUICK SEND IN THE MARINES!!!!!!!!!!!!
what? they're in iraq?
O.K. SEND IN THE ARMY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
what? they're in iraq?
WELL SEND IN THE PEACE CORP.
that'll show 'em.
"HEY PERU, HAVE I GOT A LOAN FOR YOU..............."
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 2:50pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 2:15pm
i'm pointing out the myth of latino color blindedness. until recently in our country, we whiteys of all regions of the country were vicious racists, by and large. ugly but true. the latin elites have always been largely european in their genetic makeup, and have historically made alliances with the united states and chosen class/racial loyalty over national loyalty - consistantly so, in fact. often the white elites of latin america denigrated their own native and or african peons and happily accepted gringo intervention in order to maintain the ethnicity based order...
the miami cubans are largely "white" because they were indeed precisely such an elite.
ever look at latino tv? commercials? to this day one can see such reflected in the fact that if they werent speaking spanish one might think they hired a bunch of white gringos to do their tv acting!!! lol...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:53pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 2:41pm
No grovelling necessary. Did we force Mao Zedong to apologize for Chinese involvement in the Korean War?...no.
We open up to Cuba...wine and dine Raul and his flunkies...point out all the jobs (and PROFITS) that will come from us opening up Nike and other clothing, textile, electronics, etc. factories in Havanna and Santiago....point out that the proletariat will be happy to get the work, even if the wages are VERY low by US standards...that they can keep their little "free health care/free education" stuff (like the Chinese do)....
and wait for the cash to start rolling in.....and....
wait for all the liberals who wanted us to "open up with Cuba" to start complaining about how we're "buying a bunch of cheap goods from Cuba, losing American jobs, and helping to support a communist dictatorship!"
while the Right starts saying "Hey,we need trade with Cuba...EVENTUALLY it'll lead to more democratization"
And Raul Castro is Hu Jintao shaking hands with whatever President is in office in 2024!
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 2:54pm
Hence, to answer your question regarding our pressure on France or Sweden...we do not care about them..in fact we want them socialist..it hampers their economy, especially long term...not 10 years from now, but next generation or 2...we are watching the math evolve in China India, even Indonesia... and we need to grow our sphere or be washed over board.
IMO.
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/20/2008 @ 2:46pm
france also has nukes and sweden is way too white...lol...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 2:55pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 2:54pm
well...we could not nor can force china to do ANYTHING. they are gigantic and nuclearly armed and powerful.
cuba is pathetic, poor, and not nuclearly armed. militarily, one on one, we could have crushed them long long ago - and if not for the cojones of fidel and his soviet support meaning that crushing cuba would have started a nuclear war - we would have crushed them long ago.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 3:01pm
ever look at latino tv? commercials? to this day one can see such reflected in the fact that if they werent speaking spanish one might think they hired a bunch of white gringos to do their tv acting!!! lol...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 2:53pm
it's quite odd.
many mexicans are racist against themselves.
a rhinoplastologist buddy of mine in pachuca (¡arriba tuzos!)
took multiple pictures of my nose
because it had the "classic european" look his clients were looking for.
just imagine, hundreds of mexicans are walking around with
a FROSTY NOSE...........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 3:05pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 3:01pm
What are you talking about, IBB? I'm not talking about "forcing" Cuba's leaders to do anything.
They'll see the DINEROS that are to be made...fatten their own Swiss accounts....quiet los trabajadores with steady work...and start building highways and automobiles for a middle class of technocrats and business administrators that will emerge 10-15 years later.
No force needed....they'll lap it up like gatos with some leche!
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 3:09pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 3:09pm
so why are we playing this stupid game? year after year of spending good money after bad to pump jammed propaganda into them...jeez...
its been one of the stupidest, most fruitless, most pointless long term policies we have ever pursued!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 3:15pm
Posted by MASK 02/20/2008 @ 3:09pm
who wants rubber money?
the cubans are already starting this with the euros and the chinese........
too late....
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/20/2008 @ 3:19pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/20/2008 @ 3:05pm |
apparantly my spanish was pretty good when i was in (remarkably white) costa rica. despite my gigantic whiteness some thought i was a miami cubano! and if i had been a clintonesque philanderer - good god i could have gotten laid!
yeah - if yer an american whitey and not some sort of social/physical quasimodo and want to get "lucky with the ladies"...take a vacation to latin america!!!! they all want whiter babies...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/20/2008 @ 3:20pm
yeah - if yer an american whitey and not some sort of social/physical quasimodo and want to get "lucky with the ladies"...take a vacation to latin america!!!! they all want whiter babies...-----Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/20/2008 @ 3:20pm
I think you just explained....CHIMICHENGA!
heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/20/2008 @ 7:18pm
John Nichols writes that "The senator from Illinois says he wants to ease U.S.-Cuba travel restrictions," but a more accurate statement would be that Obama proposes to ease "Cuban-American travel restrictions." Those of us who don't have families in Cuba will be second-class citizens, unable to travel to Cuba while other American citizens enjoy that right. A curious position for a candidate who is a member of a race that spent nearly 200 years as second-class citizens.
Incidentally, at a time when Clinton and Obama are accusing each other of plagiarism, it's worth noting that both of them, in their comments on Fidel Castro's retirement, have plagiarized the words of every American President for the last 45 years.
Eli Stephens Left I on the News
Posted by stevenpatt at 02/21/2008 @ 6:49pm
This is a report based upon a meeting we had within our friends and family about Senator Clinton and Obama. I will like to share the basic core issue at stake and that help me win our internal debate in favor of Senator Clinton. Things need to change and that is what this election is all about.
1)Believe it or not this is the only Job application process where you do not have to be a President before. 2)However one of the most difficult job on the planet should not be looked at any differently. 3) Say I want to change a company for various reasons for good of employees, products, environmental issues, community and so on. Will it help me to know the system or be a new comer? Will it help me to be successful in order to know right people in the company to make changes that I want? Would it help me to know other companies and relationships that my current company has or should I begin everything from the scratch?
The answers to these are obvious. Chances are a company would be at risk if you were to bring someone fresh at the top and expect to bring about fundamental changes. It sounds too good to be true and it should be that way. It is taking a huge gamble.
Looking at our country and its size and reach and its Governmental machinery we are talking about millions of people working in this system not just the senators and congress leaders and secretaries and governors.
If I am new wanting to bring some fundamental changes not knowing the system inside out, not knowing key people who are going to be there at least initially. ( If I am a President I cannot get a new senate or congress or governors for my self who would all embrace my policies) I cannot replace the govt structure at my will overnight.
I need to know ins and out more than any one else. Does not mean you know everything but my dear voters experience is a key, familiarity is the key, having nerves like steel is the key.
The rest is really good sound bites. Inspiring yes but with this kind of idealism and having not enough experience is a HUGE GAMBLE THAT WE CANNOT AFFORD TO TAKE WHEN THE STAKES ARE TOO HIGH. Even otherwise the job is too serious.
People are so much fedup with current administration that they would be very happy to get someone that can relate to them. This is not a guarantee that it would work. (It is almost the other way round) The challanges are so huge it would not be even start to deliver results end of the 4 years if we have a new comer to the system. Vito power does only so good. We have been seeing it more often than ever, it is almost autocratic.
We do not want republicans to walk out of Senate or endless fillabusters for bring fundamental changes. We do not want mudslinging which the Reps are so good at. We can almost derail our system if this new President goes wrong on one of the things or his approach.
My fellow Americans Obama has done a very good job in bring more Americans out to vote but they were already waiting for some to call.
However he is not ready yet. Period.
God please give our people enough wisdom to make this big decision
Posted by james44444 at 02/25/2008 @ 11:54am