Clinton's Stolen Rhetoric

posted by Ari Melber on 02/18/2008 @ 3:55pm

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Hillary Clinton is known as a derivative orator, to put it nicely.

The New Republic's Noam Scheiber notes that "you can't listen to a Clinton speech without hearing multiple riffs she's filched from other candidates." Back in November, he flagged her Obama lines, which ranged from hope and unity to sharing her aspiration to be a President not only for blue states, but the entire United States. In Iowa, Clinton pilfered Obama's catch phrase "fired up and ready to go," and lately she has also sounded like John McCain -- they both tout a slogan about being "read to lead on Day One," whatever that means.

Since it's considered so clever to project a candidate's weakness onto an opponent, it's really no surprise that the Clinton Campaign is now attacking Obama on trumped up allegations of sounding like another politician.

As The Nation's John Nichols explains, Clinton operatives are scrambling hard to "pitch the story of the two speeches," pushing side-by-side footage of Obama and Gov. Deval Patrick quoting famous lines from American history.

But the clip is almost comically ineffective.

Obama hardly uses any original lines from Patrick, other than the two-word phrase "just words." (Obama also says "just speeches.") Most of the 80 second-clip features both men citing famous lines in political history, from MLK to FDR. Politicians quote historical lines all the time, of course. When the audience recognizes a famous reference, such as "we hold these truths to be self-evident," there is no possibility of "plagiarism." Yet that absurd charge against Obama already turned up 84 news hits by Monday afternoon. And now The Times reports:

On the eve of the Wisconsin primary, a top adviser to Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton accused Mr. Obama of committing "plagiarism" in a speech he delivered in Milwaukee on Saturday evening. The passage in question is Mr. Obama responding to criticism from Mrs. Clinton that his inspirational speeches are not merely "just words." Mr. Obama smiled when asked about the accusation, saying it was "carrying it too far."

"Let's see, I've written two books. I wrote most of my speeches," Mr. Obama said. "I would add that I noticed Senator Clinton, on occasion, has used words of mine as well." Indeed, two of Mr. Obama's standard lines – "It's time to turn the page," and "Fired up and ready to go," – have made their way into Mrs. Clinton's campaign appearances during their contentious fight for the Democratic presidential nomination. In recent days, echoes of his "Yes we can," chant has surfaced in Mrs. Clinton's speeches as "Yes we will."

So there you have it. Yet again, the Clinton Campaign has played a weak hand for something close to a draw in the daily news cycle. If anything, she should be under pressure for mimicking both Obama and McCain, but instead, a dramatic conference call spurred reporters to press Obama on the issue. But it's precisely times like these when Obama's talk about transcending petty politics makes the most sense. Sure enough, he hit that note again during an economic policy speech at a titanium plant in Ohio today. "I don't think that's really the kind of stuff that the workers here are concerned about," he said, referring to the Clinton speech attack. "What they're concerned about is who [is] actually going to make sure that we have jobs here in the United States that pay a decent wage."

Comments (193)

The Clinton campaign has got nothing... this is a pathetic attempt to 'win' the last news cycle before tomorrow's primaries.

Posted by PeteyG at 02/18/2008 @ 4:01pm
Which may explain why FRANKGRITS hasn't gone after this whole-heartedly...he senses SHE can be hit on it too and maybe harder!

Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:11pm
Camp Hillary is out of gas and is now running on fumes. This latest non-story is yet another example of Hillary's inability to understand the change voter are yearning for that Obama represents.

If all Hillary can do is smear rather than lead, then it is time to turn the page on the Clintons and usher in a new political reality in America.

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 4:22pm
man...like shootin fish in a barrel...

i'm beginning to believe my own nastiest rhetoric about ms. clinton's intellectual capacity...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:23pm
Billary seem to be admitting substantive bankruptcy, as the race nears the wire.

But then they don't usually credit voters with excessive intelligence lately.

Whereas Obama (& Edwards) have not been insults to the brain.

So which approach will work more effectively against McC?

Lawd, but Billary are tiring/tiresome. It will be a relief to see them ride off into the sunset soon ... sparing all but NYers.

Posted by sloper at 02/18/2008 @ 4:27pm
It would good if the national media were more focused on the New York ballot count fiasco than on the Clinton's political plagiarism stunt.

What was the legitimate vote count in New York's Democratic Party primary?

Posted by oraibi1952 at 02/18/2008 @ 4:31pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:23pm |

he IS being a responsible journalist - he's telling the truth. since when has "rubber stamping mendacious clintonian rhetoric" become "responsible journalism"?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:32pm
This is a continuation of what one major Texas newspaper (one of the seven largest that endorsed Senator Obama) called a "nasty and undignified" campaign by Senator Clinton. Manufacturing controversies wastes our time and insults our intelligence. It's yet another "experienced political maneuver" that we should not encourage in our leaders. Hopefully, this nonsense will continue to backfire on Senator Clinton.

Posted by Be Good at 02/18/2008 @ 4:34pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:23pm

knight in shining armor? of course he is! but he can't "fix all the problems". he can't move mountains...not all by himself...

his genius is his ability to turn his followers into leaders.

in truth i don't see too much difference in the policies of the two dem candidates. what i do see different is a fundamental approach to how the average voter/citizen is engaged and the role of the average voter/citizen in the ongoing process of government.

to me, the clinton approach boils down ultimately to the fallacy that we can have a democracy with a top-down, ever self re-adjusting government which only requires our attention around election time. her "i'll take care of all the problems if you elect me so you can go back to self obsession, grubbing for yourself, and trivial inanities" style message is PRECISELY what is endangering our future, in a broad sense.

obama's grass roots background, his ability to not just get a few carping slobs off their asses on election day, but to (yes, here it comes cynics) to inspire people to get off their asses...

a) without being told by someone to...

b) not just on election day...

and work for the benefit of something bigger than themselves as well as their enlightened self interest is what indeed makes mr. obama the knight in shining armor he is...

but without an army of millions of knights behind him who have the heart and intestinal fortitude to FIGHT THE GOOD FIGHT...he will fail.

for the carping, cynical, everything suxers...

GROW UP! what did you expect? that something worthwhile would be easy? that evil, negative, powerful cynics would just roll over and let you get away with sitting on your asses crying into your belly buttons about how unfair everything is?

WE MUST ALL BE LEADERS - WARRIORS - KNIGHTS IN SHINING ARMOR.

and indeed if jesus christ himself ran for president i swear the cynical pharisees and pathetic schlobs would carp and bitch and ridicule and hate - so chock full of negativity and bereft of hope, unable/unwilling to concieve of the fact that someone else might actually not be as petty and morally vacuous as them...

THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A SELF REGULATING, EVER SELF CORRECTING DEMOCRATIC GOVERNMENT WHICH REQUIRES NO ATTENTION FROM THE MASSES OF PEOPLE. THAT IS NOT A DEMOCRACY, OR IF IT IS - IT WON'T BE FOR LONG...

from earlier post on other thread. thats about as close as i can get to answering that silly little, meaningless, pretty much unanswerable question of yours.

you know its an absurd question too. neither of us has a crystal ball. if you think you are winning points by repeating that smarmy, pointless query ad nauseum you are wrong.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:42pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:23pm

How's Hillary plan to change washington Frank? Without reprinting talking points? Universal Healthcare? I guarantee she won't get close. Sinking us into more war? She has yet to answer how she plans to get us out. Other than of course talking to people in Washington. Please how does she plan to change Washington?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 4:42pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 4:42pm

I'd get FRANK to answer how Her Nibs will change Washington (she's promised it too), then when he does call it "empty rhetoric, give me specifics on how she gets that past the lobbyists and corporate interests" (i.e. same charge he throws against Obama).

Then save it...and use it against him next time he goes after Obama.

Guarenteed, it puts you on Ignore......heheh!

Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:47pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 4:47pm |

its like an irritatinng kid asking "what if" questions...

at least in an irritating kid such is a sign of developing higher order critical thinking skills and therefore no matter how irritating one should make an effort to answer and encourage the blabby little tyke to think it out and continue such inquiries...

but FRANK knows better. thats why its getting more galling everytime he asks it and thinks he's making a point.

oh, he's making a point, all right - just not the one he's trying to make...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:55pm
Ari, you wouldn't be a B.O. supporter would you? Listen, how about doing some responsible journalism and tell us how B.O. changes Washington ok? Thanks. Please be specific and don't reprint the nonsense that Mettya printed earlier. That doesn't wash.

Come on frank, you and I both know why you don't B.O and it doesn't really have anything to do with Clinton does it buddy? At least you refrained from calling him "boy" this time. Good job.

I see right through you and I'm sure most everyone else on here does too.

Thank you Ari for saying what needs to be said, instead of parroting the MSM.

Posted by TheCraftyB at 02/18/2008 @ 5:14pm
This is a great post from the other thread:

Apparently speeches mattered in putting Hillary on the path of public life. "As a young woman, Hillary Rodham was active in young Republican groups and campaigned for Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater in 1964. She was inspired to work in some form of public service after hearing a speech in Chicago by Reverend Martin Luther King." biography.com

Posted by RAYATZ1 02/18/2008 @ 5:07pm

WORDS AND SPEECHES DO MATTER, EVEN TO HILLARY!!!

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 5:17pm
Thanks for posting this story...

Posted by nicR at 02/18/2008 @ 5:33pm
Wait 'til Wisconsin's over, then get worked up on all of these petty infinitessimalities.

If HRC takes Wisconsin, Obama's campaign is in real trouble because Ohio & Pennsylvania are considerably more conservative than Wisc. Texas is a done deal. Them folks is just plain loopy & have already put HRC into the win column.

If Obama takes Wisconsin & Hawaii on Tuesday, the firewall falls. Ohio & Pennsylvania will probably go with the candidate of reform & the future rather than Clintons, corruption & status quo.

But the actual delegate difference will turn out to be small, no matter how the last primaries shake out. The Supers will decide. And a small (1-3%) difference in delegates will not sway the Supers. So Denver will be "brokered" long before it gavels down in August. Write your Reps. Sens. & Govs. NOW if you want to have an impact on the nomination.

Posted by goyadad at 02/18/2008 @ 5:37pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:44pm

Hmm. How did he win in Idaho and Iowa then Frank?

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:45pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:44pm

How is he beating Hillary if all he is getting is black votes and EVERYONE else is voting for Hillary? Also how is Hillary going to change the WH? On top of that where is Hillary's progressive agenda? Please Frank enlighten us. Tell us why she is so progressive yet she was quoted as saying that sometimes torture is ok.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:48pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:46pm

How Frank? All you are giving me is rhetoric. Saying she plans to get it back there is nothing of substance. You are giving me an ends with no mean.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:49pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:46pm

Also Frank thats not CHANGING Washington. That's returning us to another time. It's not change it's more of the same. For those of us who didn't like Clinton pre or post blowjob that's not what we want.

Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:51pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:44pm

"White House advisor Buchanan urged President Nixon in an April 1969 memo not to visit "the Widow King" on the first anniversary of Martin Luther King's assassination, warning that a visit would "outrage many, many people who believe Dr. King was a fraud and a demagogue and perhaps worse.... Others consider him the Devil incarnate. Dr. King is one of the most divisive men in contemporary history." - Pat Buchanan

I'd suggest you stop listening to Pat Buchanan, or do you think the idea of having Obama paint the White House black, doesn't give him the willies? Check out other race related comments by Pat here, including his support for David Duke's "portfolio of winning issues":

http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2553

Posted by srjenkins at 02/18/2008 @ 6:12pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:46pm

My favorite part about the Clinton Presidency? When they put more people in prison that Ronald Reagan and George Bush I combined and resulted in the largest increases in federal and state prison inmates of any president in American history. The brunt of that was felt by black people.

http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/clinton/clinton.html

Posted by srjenkins at 02/18/2008 @ 6:18pm
Hillary's plan to change Washington is to get it back to the prosperous years of the Clinton Presidency. Those were pretty good times if you get past the shenanigens of Ken Starr.

Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:46pm

For the 15th time, what EXACTLY did Hillary do during the 90s to help with the economy?

If she did absolutely nothing, FRANKGRITS, why can't you admit this?

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 6:21pm
There is a reason Hillary is doing better among "uneducated" voters - THEY ARE EASIER TO FOOL!!!

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 6:30pm
Seriously? Is this what our great leaders are getting judged by? Can anyone remember a president discussing the word "is" to everyones horror and amusement? Is there no way to get issues to be at the forefront of our conversations? Voting records and history of achievement?

Posted by Entrapment at 02/18/2008 @ 6:37pm
So I guess we all have to make different names so we're not on Franky boy's ignore list.

Frank, will you at some point be intellectually honest with all us on here? You offer NOTHING but talking points. It'd be a breath of fresh air if you could actually contribute somehing to this discussion, oh and by the way I'll never let you live down calling Obama "boy". NEVER.

Posted by TheCraftyB at 02/18/2008 @ 6:38pm
Today Pat Buchanan said there's no way Obama gets the Reagan Dems which means he has no chance in the south.

Pat Buchanan is frightened by Obama's candidacy. He knows that Reagan Democrats AND Obama Republicans are tired of the "dumb war" in Iraq and the failure of Bush and Cheney to focus on bringing bin Laden to justice. He knows these voters will vote for Barack in a new progressive majority, which effectively ENDS the Reagan Revolution!

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 6:38pm
Hillary's plan to change Washington is to get it back to the prosperous years of the Clinton Presidency. Those were pretty good times if you get past the shenanigens of Ken Starr.

Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:46pm | ignore this person

So how exactly his Hillary going to replicate the technological advances that permitted prosperity without inflation due to increases in productivity? How is she going to balance the budget, try to end the Bush tax cuts ahead of schedule? What is her plan for dealing with the credit crisis? What if she has to deal with a recession that is more severe than the one her husband inherited?

Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 6:43pm
Posted by BRUNOWE 02/18/2008 @ 6:43pm

I believe it's quite similar to the business plan of the Underwear Gnomes.

Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 7:15pm
Hillary Clinton may have used words or catch phrases that others have used before in speeches. We are already hearing from Obama that she has actually uttered the phrase *fired up* which he seems to feel is his own phrase in a special way. But Obama was arrogantly and lazily wooing the Wisconsin audience with a speech someone else had given before. He was serving them leftovers and making them FEEL like it was his own super-special gourmet offering. It is particularly ironic that he was engaged in his usual self-praise about his oratory prowess. If you are going to value rhetoric over and above experience and developed policy, you should at least be sure that the rhetoric is original.

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:17pm
Hillary Clinton plagiarizes John Edwards!

Edwards: 'Real Solutions for America' http://tinyurl.com/2auz3s

Clinton: 'Solutions for America' http://tinyurl.com/yrzorq

Posted by tanarc at 02/18/2008 @ 7:27pm
"SHE does it too." Is a very weak defense and typical of adolescent moral development. But I guess some people are grasping at straws!

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:31pm
*certain web sites associated with the Clinton campaign *

By their choice or hers? Talk about sleazy!

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:37pm
Exactly. Hillary Clinton has been stealing phrases from Edwards, McCain and Obama. The Clinton's have been trying to lift Obama's whole message of change ever since it became apparent that's where the public mood was at. But the Clinton's have done this before with Ross Perot in '92 when it again became apparent that's where the public sentiment was. But the Hillary camp are trying to make it look like Obama's inspiration is coming from somewhere else or being lifted. Obama's ability to inspire comes straight from him. Obama doesn't need cue cards - believe me.

Posted by jimijazz at 02/18/2008 @ 7:37pm
*Obama doesn't need cue cards - believe me.*

Then why does he give other people's speeches?????

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:39pm
Desperation. Desperation. A non-issue. Again, this is more about the ability to inspire, which the Clintons definitely do not have. If this all the Clintons have it seems prety weak.

Posted by jimijazz at 02/18/2008 @ 7:47pm
Dear Zero,

RE: Hillary Clinton borrowed the entire concept of "change" from Obama as the re-branding of her entire campaign message the moment he started to win with it.

I am sorry to tell you that the concept of change pre-existed even the wonders of Obama's rhetoric. It is so silly to say that he invented the concept of change! We all want CHANGE because things are a huge mess! It is just simply true that either she or Obama represents change in the order of things. We have never had a woman or a person of color as the President of the United States.

I don't want there to be chicanery either. I want the democratic candidate to be completely legitimate and reflective of democratic votes!

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:52pm
Obama is asking people to be inspired by HIS words. So it is really incumbent on him to strive to express himself from the depths of his being and beliefs. Giving someone else's speech doesn't rise to level.

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:56pm
Oh no Zero. It is Hillary who does the walking and Obama who, by his own bragging does the talking!

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 7:57pm
Oh come on! Don't you think Obama gets a little carried away with himself? Try to relax a little bit. Obama really did not think up the idea of change.

Obama and both his parent have advanced degrees, he grew up in a culture where it is clear that you can't pass off someone else's work as your own. It can be a very serious thing. In this case it seems relatively minor but still relevant for a candidate who wants to be known for HIS rhetoric.

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 8:08pm
People still arguing about the meaning of what "is" is?

For Billary:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mrXUaVE8qQY

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 8:13pm
My favorite part about the Clinton Presidency? When they put more people in prison that Ronald Reagan and George Bush I combined and resulted in the largest increases in federal and state prison inmates of any president in American history. The brunt of that was felt by black people.

http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/clinton/clinton.html

Posted by SRJENKINS 02/18/2008 @ 6:18pm

no way!

deregulating the banking industry which lead to our current subprime fiasco.

way better.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:16pm
My favorite part about the Clinton Presidency? When they put more people in prison that Ronald Reagan and George Bush I combined and resulted in the largest increases in federal and state prison inmates of any president in American history. The brunt of that was felt by black people.

http://www.cjcj.org/pubs/clinton/clinton.html

Posted by SRJENKINS 02/18/2008 @ 6:18pm

second thought.

finish NAFTA and thus creating the conditions which lead to tens of thousands of mexican farmers going bankrupt.

which exacerbated an already problematic immigration issue.

way better still.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:18pm
Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 8:18pm
Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008 @ 7:17pm

If experience is such a important issue to you, I take it you will be voting for McCain in the general election?

Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008 @ 8:08pm

If this was an "idea" or a formulation, then it might be a big deal. You people are straining at gnats. Oh, and the concept of "just words" predates the other speech. Double standards anyone?

Posted by srjenkins at 02/18/2008 @ 8:19pm
Frank: You accuse Obama of "destroying hope" for taking back the White House, while at the same time demanding that you will vote for McCain if Obama gets the nomination. It sounds like you are destroying hope, not Obama.

Posted by ZERO 02/18/2008 @ 7:38pm

i think he's getting dizzy.

he needs to spin in the other direction for a while to counter-balance...................

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:20pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 8:16pm

Shhh! We don't want to mention banking, someone might say Keating Five.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 8:18pm

Problematic? No way! We would rather they came over here so we can put them in prisons and use them as slave labor, while keeping wages down for the poor here. I smell money!

Posted by srjenkins at 02/18/2008 @ 8:23pm
Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008 @ 8:18pm

So tell us ROSEWINGS, what EXACTLY did Hillary do during the 90s to help with the economy?

If she did absolutely nothing, please have the honesty to admit this!

Also, what EXACTLY did Hillary do to help ordinary Americans during her 8 years as First Lady other than the disastrous healthcare initiative?

And do you think it is honest to claim experience on your spouse's resume as your own?

Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 8:24pm
Problematic? No way! We would rather they came over here so we can put them in prisons and use them as slave labor, while keeping wages down for the poor here. I smell money!

Posted by SRJENKINS 02/18/2008 @ 8:23pm

FINALLY!!!!!!!

finally, someone who understands.

finally.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:27pm
"The only member of the Keating Five still in the U.S. Senate is John McCain."

but this is WAY bigger.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:29pm
i'll give you 84.37% certainty that ROSEWINGS doesn't like grits.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:32pm
I've eaten southern grits before. Almost puked.

Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/17/2008 @ 12:57pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:32pm
the style,

oh, so, similar.

really similar.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:33pm
To ZERO, I agree. If the Clintons had run their campaign on the issues I'd be fine with that. But it's obvious they can't win on the issues and are resorting to any kind of cheap tactic. But people who have followed the Clintons know how nasty they can be and I wasn't surprised. The Clintons have realized that Obama is a lot tougher and more talented than they realized. Underestimation indeed.

Posted by jimijazz at 02/18/2008 @ 8:35pm
Posted by jimijazz at 02/18/2008 @ 8:36pm
I believe the topic of this thread is rhetoric. The hectoring tone and extraneous topics are really uncalled for. I didn't write about this topic to make a global defense of Hillary Clinton or a global condemnation of Barak Obama. I just happen to think there is nothing wrong or dirty about saying "Hey look Mr. Rhetoric is giving someone else's speech to make you swoon!" And I don't think that using common phrases and words from the English language, such as *turn the page* or *change* is the same thing. I hear that the fact that both Clintons used the quote from Isaiah 6:8 which is commonly used, especially at the funerals of public servants, or in support of the concept of civic service is being used to say that HClinton is somehow also guilty of plagiarizing. No one claimed that saying "I have a dream" was the plagiarizing, it was delivering the same speech as if it were your own eloquence that is problematic.

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 8:48pm
then you go online, and its like a mob emerges, a shouting match.

Posted by ZERO 02/18/2008 @ 8:37pm

a mob of one or two.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:54pm
Ok can you make the same argument with the same quotes, in a different way?

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 8:57pm
Could it be that the best rhetoric arguing the same subject-- pretty much sounds the same?

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 9:00pm
for more on the battle between clinton and obama please check out this link: http://www.thevote.abc13.com

Posted by tomabrahams at 02/18/2008 @ 9:14pm
*Could it be that the best rhetoric arguing the same subject-- pretty much sounds the same?*

Could be but unlikely. Really expressing something from the soul of your own belief rarely sounds just exactly like someone else. Human language provides us with a capacity to form unique expression of things an individual thinks or feels or understands. It provides a means to leap outside of our selves and into a common vision. It is very important then to be true to that. I think it is the height of cynicism to be lazy or deceitful with rhetoric when rhetoric is the centerpiece of your claim to inspire and lead.

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 9:15pm
Curious ROSEWINGS....have you ever blogged here under a different nickname?

Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 9:20pm
Nope, never been here before. I remind you of someone?

Posted by rosewings at 02/18/2008 @ 9:29pm
Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008 @ 9:15pm

We will also stand united behind our President as he and his advisors plan the necessary actions to demonstrate America's resolve and commitment. Not only to seek out and exact punishment on the perpetrators, but to make very clear that not only those who harbor terrorists, but those who in any way aid or comfort them whatsoever will now face the wrath of our country. And I hope that that message has gotten through to everywhere it needs to be heard. You are either with America in our time of need or you are not. Statement in the US Senate in response to the World Trade Center and Pentagon Attacks

***********************************************

Every nation has to either be with us, or against us. Those who harbor terrorists, or who finance them, are going to pay a price.

***********************************************

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen. It may include dramatic strikes, visible on TV, and covert operations, secret even in success. We will starve terrorists of funding, turn them one against another, drive them from place to place, until there is no refuge or no rest. And we will pursue nations that provide aid or safe haven to terrorism. Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists. (Applause.) From this day forward, any nation that continues to harbor or support terrorism will be regarded by the United States as a hostile regime.

**********************************************

two quotes are hillary clinton. one is george bush.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 9:29pm
i'll give you 84.37% certainty that ROSEWINGS doesn't like grits.

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 8:32pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 9:31pm
Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008 @ 9:29pm

Possibly. No sign of HELENDAO in a long time. But, take you at your word.

And, since you've actually stuck around to answer some counter-posts, atleast you're not the daily "newbie one-timer who JUST HAPPENS to be a Hillary supporter, defends her, then is never seen again"....that guy bugs the crap out of me.

Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 9:39pm
Clearly, Ari, you know nothing about the phrases from whom Obama has lifted some of his most notable phrases, such as "We are the ones we've been waiting for" and "Yes, we can." Long before these words became "catch phrases" they were the powerful words of revered thinkers like June Jordan and the United Farm Workers. Maybe you should try offering a more insightful critique rather than just regurgitating what's been said in the press, and offering the all-too familiar rant of I-Hate-Hillary-Clinton, popular at the nation at this time. Perhaps it is time that you and other leftists get over you white guilty, the white guilt that prevents you and others like you from offering more enlightening critiques about Obama. As Barbara Ehrenreich wrote recently, "We, perhaps white people especially, look to him for atonement and redemption." Indeed, it's time you get over it.

Posted by s-interns at 02/18/2008 @ 9:43pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 5:

well...do you think hilly will get any states in the real south? maybe arkansas...

ford almost took the senate seat in ten. in 06 and ten has a smaller percentage of blacks than sc or miss. how did he do that? in the racist old south???

hmmm...maybe obama has a better chance in the south than you think...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:20pm
"He alone deserves liberty and life who daily must win them anew." Goethe

"The true character of liberty is independence, maintained by force." Voltaire

"I regret that I have but one life to give for my country." Nathan Hale

"I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty, or give me death." Patrick Henry

"Liberty's in every blow! Let us do or die." Robert Burns

or

Liberté, égalité, fraternité-- "Liberty, equality, fraternity (brotherhood)", is the motto of the French Republic

"no one ought to harm another in his life, health, liberty, or possessions." or "life, liberty, and estate (or property)" John Locke

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness." Thomas Jefferson

. . . . . .

Why, I do believe our country's forefathers are a bunch of stealers and copiers... or just plain pleasurists!

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 10:22pm
er, plagiarists, maybe

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 10:23pm
Posted by ROSEWINGS 02/18/2008

so glad to see mrs. clinton taking the high road! seriously...is this the best you guys have?

nice character...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:26pm
how bout it hilly bots? your dark queen comparing notes with ol' flippy mccain? hmmm...why would the pubs want to help out mrs. clinton...hmmm....?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:28pm
Why, I do believe our country's forefathers are a bunch of stealers and copiers... or just plain pleasurists!

Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 10:22pm

yeah, just ask sally hemmings...........

great post.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 10:31pm
I want this primary over, legitimately.

Posted by ZERO 02/18/2008 @ 8:41pm

no kidding! the more desperate the clintonistas get, the nastier and dirtier they get...how low will they sink?

the clinton limbo!!!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:42pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 10:31p

where did all these damned hilly bots come from?

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:42pm
The problem is the media lapdogs. Yahoo News picked up Nichols' item which emphasizes O's borrowings, but They ignored Ari's item which rejoins with Billary's equal "licensing" of others' ideas. So the Yahoo News readers see only one side of the debate. The Nation's web editors shoud append Ari's item to John's, so the whole story is widely told.

Note that Yahoo - new media, right? - generally give pro-Clinton items more emphasis, in its lists of "important" headlines. New Media? Not so much...

Posted by sjduskin at 02/18/2008 @ 10:46pm
where did all these damned hilly bots come from?

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 10:42pm

hrc's got teams of monkeys klakketting away on oh so many keyboards...............

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 10:47pm
No wonder Billary's ground game is so bad, they put most of their campaign money into-- 'klakketting monkeys'...

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 10:57pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 10:57pm

why else do you think frank's gone bananas?

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 10:58pm
Well there could be other reason but it would be too personal and odds are he take it wrong.

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 11:00pm
What kind of deal did Clinton work out MSNBC? All MSNBC has been doing lately is making excuses for Clinton, and complaining (along with Clinton) that the media is all against her. Is this part of Schuster's apology? This is total BS, and it shows the extent of the Clinton tentacles. The truth hurts....too bad MSNBC can't seems to accept the truth or tell the truth...like Clinton. MSNBC and Ms. Clinton make good bedfellows....and they are both PIMPING lies.

Posted by OneVote at 02/18/2008 @ 11:00pm
er, he'd

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 11:00pm
hey ibbbbbbbblelelelllllllllbelble,

check this out.

the obama left-handed conspiracy to conquer america continues:

http://www.latimes.com/media/photo/2008-02/35776658.jpg

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:01pm
Posted by ONEVOTE 02/18/2008 @ 11:00pm

hisssssssssssssssssssssssss........

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:02pm
Here we go:

Texas poll shows dead heat among Dems

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/18/poll.texas/

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 11:06pm
meanwhile, on the alaskan coast..................

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2008/02/12/travel/17love450.1.jpg

the cruise is solar powered, of course.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:08pm
Seems that Barack's moving up fast in the Texas polls to Billary's dipping:

http://www.pollster.com/08-TX-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 11:09pm
Texas will look like this soon:

http://www.pollster.com/08-WI-Dem-Pres-Primary.php

Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 11:11pm
and that most of the cruisers thought the Nation publisher and editor-in-chief Katrina vanden Heuvel was, as one gentleman put it to me, "a total fox."

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:11pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 10:57pm

i don't think most people care...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:12pm
"While our four stops in ports -- Juneau, Sitka and Ketchikan, and Victoria in British Columbia -- would give us the chance to participate, at extra cost, in Holland America-organized activities like salmon fishing ($389) and glacier climbing ($354 to $499), it cost nothing to sidle up to Rocky Anderson midship and gush that you really, really love what he's doing in Salt Lake with carbon offsets."

ATTENTION NATION STAFF. THIS IS JUST PLAIN WRONG! WTF???????????????????

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:15pm
( WATCH ANOTHER NEW VIDEO ON OBAMA MESSAGE SHAM!)

NEW VIDEO shows he lifted entire campaign theme!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSVsUvqb_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSVsUvqb_Q

AHH IT'S NOT "JUST WORDS" PLAY OF WORDS.....

----------------------------------------------------

Posted by JayATL at 02/18/2008 @ 11:19pm
The Love Boat for Policy Wonks

http://www.thenation.com/click/newsfeed.mhtml?id=6708

The Pollution Boat for Hypocrites!

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:21pm
Posted by JAYATL 02/18/2008 @ 11:19pm

thats it? thats what all this about?

he lifted his entire campaign theme????

har har har! more stupid hyperbole please!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:24pm
When two Dem candidates runs neck to neck, THIS is what a cat fight looks like!

Oh, I don't mean the candidates, I mean the bloggers....LOL :~)

Posted by Happy at 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 11:21pm | ignore this person

settle down, frosty...

you have completely lost me...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm
The Associated Press Thursday, October 11, 2007; 4:21 PM CONCORD, N.H. -- Democratic presidential hopeful Hillary Rodham Clinton said it would be foolish to take her name off Michigan's primary ballot and sacrifice her chances against the Republican nominee. As the only top tier Democrat remaining on Michigan ballot, Clinton is all but guaranteed to win the state's primary. Michigan is tentatively slated to send 156 delegates to the 2008 Democratic National Convention, but national party officials have threatened to take away those delegates if the state persists in holding its primary on Jan. 15. "It's clear, this election they're having is not going to count for anything," Clinton said Thursday during an interview on New Hampshire Public Radio's call-in program, "The Exchange."

Posted by jdb133 at 02/18/2008 @ 11:29pm
Posted by HAPPY 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm | ignore this person

both!!!! jeez the clintonistas are irritating me like a bad case of the roids...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:30pm
settle down, frosty...

you have completely lost me...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm

http://travel.nytimes.com/2008/02/17/travel/17loveboat.html?pagewanted=1

thenation cruise.

they climb glaciers.

GENERATION OF WASTE ON BOARD A CRUISE SHIP

It is calculated that a cruise ship with a capacity of some 2,000-3,000 passengers can generate some 1,000 tonnes of waste per day (1)

which can be broken down as follows:

550,000-800,000 litres of greywater

100,000-115,000 litres of blackwater

13,500-26,000 litres of oily bilge water

7,000-10,500 kilos of garbage and solid waste

60-130 kilos of toxic waste

ENERGY CONSUMPTION AND AIR POLLUTION

The fuel consumption of a cruise ship is equivalent to 12,000 vehicles, exacerbated by the fact that the type of fuel used by the majority of these vessels is 50 times more toxic than regular fuel. Big merchant vessels and cruise ships tend to use lower quality fuel to keep costs down, but this is also the most contaminating fuel. This low-quality product is made up of the heavier hydrocarbon residues that are left over following the crude oil refining process to produce higher quality fuels such as petrol or light oils.

This fuel is not only used to actually move the ship along but also to maintain all the electrical systems of this veritable floating city in operation: lights, refrigeration, air conditioning, nightclubs, shops, vending machines, televisions and a plethora of electrical appliances.

Air pollution is also caused by waste treatment. Part of the waste is incinerated on board, so cruise ships also generate ash and smoke emissions containing toxic substances. As a result of this waste treatment, substances as toxic as polychlorate biphenyls (PCBs), dioxins and furans have been detected in smoke from fuel-burning.

CONTAMINATION BY CRUISE SHIPS

Cruise ship spillage can contain toxic substances, hydrocarbons, organic residue and pathogen agents, the potential impact on sensitive areas of which is considerable. A study carried out in Alaska corroborated that 68 of the 70 samples taken from the effluent of cruise ships using standard treatment systems exceeded the levels of coliforms in faecal water and/or suspended solids (7). Prior to this, another study carried out in the same American state confirmed that concentrations of pathogens in this spillage may exceed federal limits by between 10,000 and 100,000 times (8). High levels of coliforms were also detected in greywater, as well as heavy metals and dissolved plastics (9), something that is particularly worrying given that this kind of waste is not regulated.

BOOOOOOOOO! BOOOOOOOOO! BOOOOOOOOOO! BOOOOOOOOO!

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:41pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 11:41pm |

should they have taken a sailing ship? or come to stay at frosty zoom's canadian green zone?

lol - just pickin' my chilly cool canadian brother man!

hmmm...frosty zoom's canadian green zone...sounds fun to me...

;)

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:54pm
hmmm...frosty zoom's canadian green zone...sounds fun to me...

;)

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 11:54pm

ssssshhhhh

i've got borders to cross......

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:59pm
should they have taken a sailing ship?

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 11:54pm

no, they should have gone here:

The geographical center of the lower 48 states lies outside of Lebanon, Kansas, in the middle of a hog farm.

how fitting.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:01am
http://ask.yahoo.com/20010122.html

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:02am
Posted by ZERO 02/19/2008 @ 12:01am

its pathetic. oooh! he "plagiarized" 30 seconds of his buddy's speech???? MY GOD!!! lol...

victoria island? oh man - that place looks awesome...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:16am
fz: what's wrong with a little eco-tourism? salmon fishing isn't evil, nor is playing on a glacier.

Posted by ZERO 02/18/2008 @ 11:59pm

eco-tourism?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?

more like TOURO-SQUASHISM............

moron.

Cruise Ships Are Floating Pig Farms!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

CONTAMINATION BY CRUISE SHIPS

CRUISE SHIP SPILLAGE CAN CONTAIN TOXIC SUBSTANCES, HYDROCARBONS, ORGANIC RESIDUE AND PATHOGEN AGENTS, THE POTENTIAL IMPACT ON SENSITIVE AREAS OF WHICH IS CONSIDERABLE. A STUDY CARRIED OUT IN ALASKA CORROBORATED THAT 68 OF THE 70 SAMPLES TAKEN FROM THE EFFLUENT OF CRUISE SHIPS USING STANDARD TREATMENT SYSTEMS EXCEEDED THE LEVELS OF COLIFORMS IN FAECAL WATER AND/OR SUSPENDED SOLIDS (7). PRIOR TO THIS, ANOTHER STUDY CARRIED OUT IN THE SAME AMERICAN STATE CONFIRMED THAT CONCENTRATIONS OF PATHOGENS IN THIS SPILLAGE MAY EXCEED FEDERAL LIMITS BY BETWEEN 10,000 AND 100,000 TIMES

get a brain, fuckwit.

fz: understood on the ship's pollution

Posted by ZERO 02/19/2008 @ 12:02am

whew.

good thing i read your 12:02 post before i hit submit.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:26am
;-)))))

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:26am
victoria island? oh man - that place looks awesome...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 12:16am

victoria's (the prov. capital--very saxon) where hippies (with nice portfolio's) go to retire.

check out the queen charlotte islands.

they say the rainforest is perfect for growing fungus.........

http://www.factsandopinions.com/Report/A6482CD4-1051-4B6B-83DF-DC5852F80 FA8.html

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:38am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:38am | i

attack of the spores...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:40am
attack of the spores...

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 12:40am

i thought you said they were "hillybots".

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:02am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 01:02am

nannites...

fading here...champagne fantasies and caviar dreams...on eco-freindly cruise ships of the future...

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 01:10am
Clinton Campaign Issues Economic Plan

1 day ago

MILWAUKEE (AP) -- Democrat Hillary Rodham Clinton's campaign released a 13-page blueprint for fixing the economy Monday, detailing the former first lady's plans to achieve universal health care, address the home foreclosure crisis and develop jobs for the middle class.

C'mon Obama....

Where's the substance?

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:19am
Pakistanis Deal Severe Defeat to Musharraf in Election

Published: February 19, 2008

ISLAMABAD, Pakistan -- Pakistanis dealt a crushing defeat to President Pervez Musharraf in parliamentary elections on Monday, in what government and opposition politicians said was a firm rejection of his policies since 2001 and those of his close ally, the United States.

well, well........

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:55am
"As a young woman, Hillary Rodham was active in young Republican groups and campaigned for Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater in 1964. She was inspired to work in some form of public service after hearing a speech in Chicago by Reverend Martin Luther King." biography.com

That's very funny. She hears a MLK speech & decides to go work for "states' rights." Hmmm ... MLK must have scared the bejeezus out of her, as in her heart she knew Goldwater was right. Priceless, the whole performance. There'd be poetic justice, at the very least, in her losing now to a man of color.

Posted by sloper at 02/19/2008 @ 02:47am
ROSE and others,

I can see the frustration with Obama's rhetorical techniques (although I don't share it). But it's a big jump--and a disingenuous one--to say that because he borrowed about 2 minutes of somebody else's words in 20-odd minute speech, he 'gave another person's speech.' He didn't, and to say so is to misrepresent the truth.

Also, borrowing words from somebody else does not necessarily indicate that the feeling behind those words is false. Just because Obama used some lines from Patrick doesn't mean Obama doesn't believe that rhetoric and its power to unify and inspire is a worthy, important campaign tool.

Allusion, paraphrase, and quotation are all key rhetorical strategies--any master of rhetoric knows this and if you look at some of the greatest speeches in US history, you'll see all these techniques used: Lincoln's "House Divided"; Kennedy's inauguration; King's "I have a dream"; Malcolm X's "The Ballot or the Bullet"; the list goes on.

It would be difficult to claim that these speakers were not inspirational; their inspiration led massive amounts of people to take part in their ideas of 'change.' And all of them did so, in part, by using and modulating the words of others. In fact, it's so common in rhetoric, it's almost laughable that it's become a 'controversy.'

Posted by Rintrah at 02/19/2008 @ 04:33am
Posted by ZERO 02/18/2008 @ 8:46pm

I suggest your problem is in your choice of websites. Let's take a look at one post that seems to me to encapsulate much of the site:

http://noquarterusa.net/blog/2008/02/17/whats-the-deal-with-you-and-obam a-larry/#more-1548

While the man tries to appear reasonable - "Get those facts out on the table now, on his terms. Otherwise, the Republicans will be more than happy to do so in the fall" - his tone and his attempts to portray his commentary as merely asking questions by contrasting them with websites devoted to making false allegations about Hillary Clinton, all suggest that what we have here is a Clinton partisan pushing her agenda. Based on a quick scan of the comments, it looks like it is all going swimmingly with the choir.

Do yourself a favor, skip No Quarter. If you want to critical commentary of Obama, there are other people offering it without being complete asshats about it.

Posted by srjenkins at 02/19/2008 @ 05:46am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 11:41pm

FROSTY, you really shouldn't be surprised at Ms vanden Heuvel and her gang going on a "carbon-heavy" cruise....after all, don't you remember?

"All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others!"

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 07:14am
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 07:14am

not surprised at all........

how ironic it was "snowball" who was cast away from the farm.....

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 08:35am
Ah, the Clintons.

Pathetic desperation that we really don't want or need more of in the days to come. The Clintons are a liability and actually sabotage the future. The Clintons need to be given the hook.

Posted by Lil at 02/19/2008 @ 08:40am
Ah, the Clintons.

Pathetic desperation that we really don't want or need more of in the days to come. The Clintons are a liability and actually sabotage the future. The Clintons need to be given the hook.

Posted by Lil at 02/19/2008 @ 08:41am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 08:35am

Squealer: "Comrades!" he cried. "You do not imagine, I hope, that we pigs are doing this in a spirit of selfishness and privilege? Many of us actually dislike milk and apples. Milk and apples (this has been proved by Science, comrades) contain substances absolutely necessary to the well-being of a pig."

"We pigs are brainworkers. The whole management and organization of this farm depend on us. Day and night we are watching over your welfare. It is for your sake that we drink that milk and eat those apples."

Will they serve "milk and windfall apples" on "The Nation" cruise?!?!?

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 08:51am
Will they serve "milk and windfall apples" on "The Nation" cruise?!?!?

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 08:51am

serve what they will the "end" result will be the same:

Cruise ship spillage can contain toxic substances, hydrocarbons, organic residue and pathogen agents, the potential impact on sensitive areas of which is considerable. A study carried out in Alaska corroborated that 68 of the 70 samples taken from the effluent of cruise ships using standard treatment systems exceeded the levels of coliforms in faecal water and/or suspended solids (7). Prior to this, another study carried out in the same American state confirmed that concentrations of pathogens in this spillage may exceed federal limits by between 10,000 and 100,000 times (8). High levels of coliforms were also detected in greywater, as well as heavy metals and dissolved plastics (9), something that is particularly worrying given that this kind of waste is not regulated.

how ironic i called cruise ships floating pig farms........

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 09:22am
when she gets back.......................

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 09:23am
The creatures outside looked from pig to man, and from man to pig, and from pig to man again; but already it was impossible to say which was which.

oink.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 09:35am
LA HABANA (AFP) -- Fidel Castro anunció este martes su renuncia a la Presidencia de Cuba tras 49 años en el poder, abriendo una era de cambios en la cual el legendario dirigente comunista mantendrá la influencia de su liderazgo histórico.

"No aspiraré ni aceptaré, el cargo de Presidente del Consejo de Estado y Comandante en Jefe", afirmó en su carta publicada en el diario oficial Granma, a cinco días de que el Parlamento defina la nueva cúpula del Gobierno.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 09:41am
hey!

fidel reads TOMDISPATCH:

REFLEXIONES DEL COMANDANTE EN JEFE

El candidato republicano

(Quinta y última parte)

Los artículos señalados en la reflexión de ayer, 14 de febrero, fueron escritos en los últimos dos o tres días.

Hace más de dos semanas, el 27 de enero de 2008, la publicación digital Tom Dispatch reprodujo un artículo, traducido para Rebelión por Germán Leyens: La crisis de la deuda es la mayor amenaza para Estados Unidos, de Chalmers Johnson. Este autor norteamericano no ha sido previamente distinguido con el Nobel, como Joseph Stiglitz, prestigioso y reconocido economista y escritor, o el propio Milton Friedman, inspirador del neoliberalismo que condujo a muchos países por ese desastroso camino, incluido Estados Unidos.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 09:42am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 09:41am

Yeah, speaking of "Napoleon the Pig".

Wonder how soon until somebody at "TN" posts the "Fidel's Years in Power: A Mixed Bag" with tepid, weak knocks on the authoritarianism and praise for the "free health care and free education"?

Key line to look for "But despite the lack of freedoms, Cubans enjoy...."

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 09:52am
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 09:52am

well...at least now they have some ejumucayshum and a good lifespan. maybe they are indeed ready to move toward something resembling democracy. all they had when we were in charge was one right wing anticommernist stoolie despot after another.

and without a million + fascist cubans in miami dictating our policy for the last 40 years we might have normalized trade relations years ago and have already walmartized 'em!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:07am
all they had when we were in charge was one right wing anticommernist stoolie despot after another.----Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 10:07am

Well, they also could LEAVE...without having to hide in jetliner tire wells or board Little Rascals-style "boats". And Batista rarely screened the phone calls in or out of the country.

Not saying he wasn't a scumbag too, but don't believe in "degrees" of "bad dictators versus not-so-bad dictators".

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:24am
no - castro is a brutal commernist dictator.

i'm not so much defending him as i am pointing out that except for the ancestors of the miami cubanos the other 90% of cubans lived like shit under batista and the string of other oligarchic dictators running back to our protectorate of cuba.

but the miami cubans' assertion that pre castro cuba was a paradise of some sort is a baldfaced lie - for 90% of the people of cuba, that is.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:33am
I can hardly wait...I for one, am excited beyond repair.

Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 10:27am

if you experience an erection of four hours or more immediately contact a doctor...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:35am
plus i'd like to point out that the stupid latin elite "pride" and rage of the miami cubanos, combined with their inordinate amount of influence and an arrogant yanqui attitude toward the island of the cubano who flipped us the bird (how dare he! we had mobsters in charge of a giant tropical whorehouse/gambling casino!) may have actually retarded the advent of market reform on the island. as far back as the seventies at least castro regularly sent out diplomatic feelers to washington hinting at a desitre to ratchet back the confrontational rhetoric and opening up relations, including economic relations...

who knows? cuba might have been a caribbean spain by now with castro dead or imprisoned. instead our intransigence and arrogance(bolstered by more of the same from the rightwing cuban emigre population) imo actually strengthened castro's position and assured enough support amongst the remaining 90%+ of cuba to enable castro to stay in power and actually popular amongst enough of the schmukos of the island (who in many ways have indeed benefited from castro's commernist social programs when compared to their lot under batista. freedom? never had it under the oligarchic right wing despots we supported either).

but at least we have castro to largely thank for...LAS VEGAS! but for castros expulsion of the american mafia those guys would have stayed in habana and nevada would be naught but a giant secret military base and testing grounds with a few old crashed flying saucers...lol!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:48am
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 10:41am

said it before, saying it agin'...

if i ain't gettin a four hour erection i want my money back, dammit!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:49am
Nothing much will change. Raul was there from the beginning of "La Revolucion" and won't do much.

If Obama/Clinton/McCain make some overtures, he'll pull a Hu Jintao and try to get some investment moneies. But not much else.

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:52am
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 10:52am

i think that if we had taken a different approach we (and the expatriots in miami) would own that island (again) by now. but castro kept flippin us the bird and the cubanos kept funding campaigns...so...

never an inch!!!! no compromise!!! no subtlety!!!!

VIVA VIAGRA! uh...i mean LAS VEGAS!!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:57am
but castro kept flippin us the bird

and aint no commie cuban gonna git away with flippin US the bird! pfft!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:59am
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 11:10am

nah...but i do think we could have gotten more bang for the buck with a little less confrontation and a little more subtlety. the no compromise style has resulted in...

a continued communist undemocratic regime!

wonder how much 80-90% of the schmuk cubans were making a month, adjusted for inflation, pre-castro? and with no healthcare/education...

so the choice of the average cuban schmuk was this...

no healthcare (resulting in 40-50 year average lifespans, no education, and domination by an arrogant, insulting right wing aristocracy supporting a brutal american/mafia stooge dictator or...decent healthcare, education, some dignity...and a brutal commernist dictator who at least treats them with some dignity if they pretend to be commies...

and about the same income...but 20 - 30 years more life...

i think most cubans who remained have largely supported mr. castro and his commies as a result of a decision that they in fact have had it better under the left dictator than the righty dictators...

and they got rid of all those obnoxious, vicious, miami cubans who happily were sellin cuba to the mob!

sounds like the lesser of two evils for them! ah, benighted self interest!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 11:24am
Key line to look for "But despite the lack of freedoms, Cubans enjoy...."

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 09:52am

well, they don't have to worry about their kids getting shot at school.......

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:34am
and have already walmartized 'em!

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 10:07am

jamas!

(i hope)

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:35am
Not saying he wasn't a scumbag too, but don't believe in "degrees" of "bad dictators versus not-so-bad dictators".

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 10:24am

thats cause the closest thing to either you've had to live under was our current president!

lets see...the brutal right wing dictator who supports a humiliating elitist aristocracy more than willing to sell the country to the mob and a pack of insulting, lecherous, asinine gringos or...

the brutal lefty dictator who provides free healthcare, education, and tells me i'm a human being worth being treated with dignity (as long as i attend a few commie rallies and shout "viva la revolucion!" a few times). AND got rid of those assholes who owned my ass, AND flips the bird on a regular basis to those obnoxious gringos who treated me like one of their subhuman funny little brown skinned slaves...

well...with the 20-30 years more life span i have, and the smae monthly income (supported by gov. assisted housing with indoor plumbing...) i, the average schmuk cubano...

choose the commernist!!!!! fuck gringo!

lol...benighted self interest...

that was an easy choice for a cuban. but i'm sure you prefer being a lucky blessed gringo..

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 11:44am
Not saying he wasn't a scumbag too, but don't believe in "degrees" of "bad dictators versus not-so-bad dictators".

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 10:24am

but...you will vote for fifty foot queenie if she gets the nom...

heehee - sorry man, but i don't think you understand the level of utter misery the vast majority of the cubans were living under, politically and economically, long before castro.

they just ended up making the same shitty decision you (and i) might have to make if barry o loses the nom...

the difference is you and i are fortunate enough live in the land of demigods.

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 11:54am
that was an easy choice for a cuban.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 11:44am

super easy.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:55am
the difference is you and i are fortunate enough live in the land of demigods.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 11:54am

the difference is you and i are fortunate enough live in the land of the federal reserve printing press.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:56am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 9:29pm :: out of curiosity- which one is Bush?? I figure its the less verbose, 2 sentence quip in the middle, but I'd like to know for sure :)

Posted by jro555 at 02/19/2008 @ 11:56am
Posted by JRO555 02/19/2008 @ 11:56am

the last one is bush.

when you want to source what people have posted, just highlight a chunk in the middle and go a-googlin'

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:03pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 11:34am

True, they have to worry about being shot...by their Government.

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:11pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 11:54am

"Now if there was one thing that the animals were completely certain of, it was that they did not want Jones back. When it was put to them in this light, they had no more to say. The importance of keeping the pigs in good health was all too obvious."

"So it was agreed without further argument that the milk and the windfall apples (and also the main crop of apples when they ripened) should be reserved for the pigs alone."

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:13pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 11:56am | ignore this person

"freedom and democracy! freedom and democracy!" pfffft! that tired old mantra is about as meaningless as a fundamentalist cromwellian screeching "jesus is love" and condemming anyone who don't believe their close minded superstion!

"freedom and democracy" have ALWAYS taken second place in our foriegn priorities to "american business interest" in the real world. shit - the soviet union was the best thing that ever happened to american business and the real overlords of america.

heehee - when did we EVER support a real democratic regime over one of our stoolie right client dictactors willing to sell his schmuko nation downriver for a vacation home in miami and a big bundle of gringo cashola???

har har! then we won the cold war and...oh shit! now we gotta put up or shut up about all this bullshit hypocritical "freedom and democracy" propaganda crap we've been spewing since before 1945...har har!

hmmm...yeah...now we can invade and occupy bully them into some "freedom and democracy" now! oooh oooh - islamo fascism!

thank god some bugaboo showed up. we may have had to actually put up!!!!

ah, the delicious, wicked, hypocrisy of reality!!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:14pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:13pm

yeah i liked that book too. but if i were funny little dirt poor cubano brownie in 1960...i'd be viva la revolucionin' and pickin' the homegrown pig over ol jones in a heartbeat!

you wouldn't?

lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:19pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:13pm

Last Updated: Tuesday, 16 May 2006, 14:52 GMT 15:52 UK

Castro denies huge fortune claim

Fidel Castro says he has no personal fortune

Cuban President Fidel Castro has dismissed as "absurd" and "malicious" a US magazine report saying he had amassed a personal fortune of $900m.

Diplomats and businessmen in Havana, who have had close access to Mr Castro, do tend to concur that avarice is not one of his vices, says the BBC's Stephen Gibbs in Havana.

Most say his personal life is notable for its austerity, our correspondent adds.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/4985510.stm

i believe him (well more than forbes magazine)

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:22pm
True, they have to worry about being shot...by their Government.

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:11pm

Cuba placed a moratorium on the use of capital punishment in 2001 but an exception was made when, in 2003, three Cubans were executed for a ferry hijacking using automatic weapons in which Cuban families and two young French female tourists were held at gunpoint.

it ain't perfect, that's for sure.

but it is 17,564,684% better than before.

and COMPARED to it's neighbours (no, not the u.s.)

cuba is waaaaaaaaay better off.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:25pm
True, they have to worry about being shot...by their Government.

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:11pm

not if they shout "viva la revolucion" a few times a year at a rally or two!

no way, short of living under a rock, you and i can avoid getting blown away by some gun toting private citizen who's gone off his meds...

har har - at least in cuba the meds are free!!!! lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:26pm
Why?

Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 12:25pm

forbes magazine has an interest in discrediting the cubans.

castro has no possible way of using any wealth.

what, is he going to parade through la habana in a hummer on his way to his yacht?

don't think so..........

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:28pm
you wouldn't?

lol...---Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 12:19pm

"Donkeys live a long time. None of you has ever seen a dead donkey!"

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:32pm
CLINTON: FIRING BLANKS AND (HOPEFULLY SOON) 'READY TO GO'

I truly believe that history involving all of us - We the People - is about to be made: I believe in Barack Obama. Hillary is mostly involved with herself; Barack is a Uniter, who wants to empower us all.

This latest Clinton ploy, nit-picking at the supposed 'plagiarism of Obama's close friend's speech' ploy - a friend who couldn't care less if Obama borrows his words or not! - is merely another sign of how extremely desperate the Clintons have become.

And trying to twist Michelle's SENTENCE about being proud of her country for the first time in her adult life is merely an indication of how wildly successful Michelle has been: despite never even using a note card during her countless fantastic speeches, they never had a chance to lay a finger on her before, so now they pounce, or at least try to pounce, on the fact that Michelle said she never had a chance in her adult life to be proud of her country's participation in the political process. And this charge coming from the Clinton campaign that's always hawking that the Obama campaign deals in fluff, not substance?: as a Democrat, I feel it's downright embarrassing; as an American it's doubly embarrassing when you remember that the whole world is watching...

This brilliant "OBAMA PORTRAIT MUSIC VIDEO" has been used all across the country at house parties and fundraisers - hope you enjoy it, too:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCPwbozpIzM

WE ARE THE CHANGE WE'VE BEEN WAITING FOR WE CAN - AND WE WILL

Posted by annevilla at 02/19/2008 @ 12:32pm
Education spending (% of GDP)

#1 Cuba: 18.7%

#120 Dominican Republic: 2.3%

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:32pm
castro has no possible way of using any wealth.---Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:28pm

Then it's not much "credit" to him that he doesn't flaunt it, is it?

BTW, Stalin?...wasn't living like Rockefeller either. Not the point.

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:33pm
Literacy > Total population

#8 Cuba: 99.8 %

#127 Dominican Republic: 87 %

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:34pm
Infant mortality rate

#147 Cuba: 6.45

#64 Dominican Republic: 33.28

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:40pm
Life expectancy at birth, years > Total population

#35 Cuba: 77

#106 Dominican Republic: 68

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:41pm
oh shit...hope miss villa ain't a miami cuban...

would never want to cast aspersion to that lovely, shining, pure spirited, beacon of hope and decency...

and she's still on topic!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:43pm
what good is free speech if no one listens to you?

what good is free speech if you die before the age of 2?

what good is free speech if you can't read?

what good is free speech if you're dead at 40?

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:43pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:41pm

stop making sense, dammit!!!!!

pinko!!!!

lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:44pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 12:44pm

one more, just for you:

Physicians > per 1,000 people

#2 Cuba: 5.91 per 1,000 people

#69 Dominican Republic: 1.88 per 1,000 people

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:47pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:43pm

pfft...da...oooooooooh!

but i'm a miami cubano! i had it GREAT! i had mansions and businesses and freedom and good doctors and a huge library and hundreds of brownie peons!!!!!

you commie bastard!!!

har har!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:47pm
FROSTY....you applying for the job????

"Wonder how soon until somebody at "TN" posts the "Fidel's Years in Power: A Mixed Bag" with tepid, weak knocks on the authoritarianism and praise for the "free health care and free education"?

Key line to look for "But despite the lack of freedoms, Cubans enjoy...."----Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 09:52am

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:47pm
what good is free speech if you die before the age of 2?

what good is free speech if you're dead at 40?

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:43pm

"What good are your civil rights, if the terrorists kill you?!?!!?"----neo-con right wingers whenever habeus corpus or the 4th Amendment or Gitmo come up.

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:48pm
and you can replace the mansions and libraries and businesses and doctors but its the boot lickin' brownie peons i was bossin' around and screwin' in the servents quarters that ya just cant quite have as yer birthright here in south florida!!!!

oh hey - mexicans!!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:51pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:47pm

not saying it's perfect....

but i'd rather be born a cuban

than in the dominican republic.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:51pm
"WHERE'S.....THE.......BEEF????" (Wendy's, circa 1984)

Posted by TransitDave at 02/19/2008 @ 12:54pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:51pm

Okay, if that's your analogy...reverse it (and be honest)...

would to achieve a better life for the Dominicans, would you replace their current government with a Communist dictatorship?

yes/no?

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:56pm
ah, the delicious, wicked, hypocrisy of reality!!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 1:04pm
THE UNITED STATES, A MIXED BAG

free elections -- the freely elected govenment lies to the world as causes the death of tens of thousands of iraqis

excellent health care -- if you can afford it

freedom of expression -- money sure helps if you want to be listened to

etc.,

ain't no place that's perfect................

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 1:16pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:22pm

We KNOW he doesn't have much going on in the wardrobe department. And while he doesn't look good, he doesn't look like he has been snacking on truffels for decades either.

Posted by srjenkins at 02/19/2008 @ 1:29pm
would to achieve a better life for the Dominicans, would you replace their current government with a Communist dictatorship?

yes/no?

Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 12:56pm

ah............

the ol' black vs white.

i think both peoples would be better off being replaced by a government kinda like these places:

2007/2008 Human Development Index rankings

Iceland

Norway

Australia

Canada

Ireland

Sweden

Switzerland

Japan

Netherlands

France

but for a poor country with no outside help for 16 years, they've done pretty well:

46 Uruguay

47 Croatia

48 Costa Rica

49 Bahamas

50 Seychelles

51 Cuba

52 Mexico

53 Bulgaria

mexico, #52? i lived there for 10 years and i was just as happy there as i am here........

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:01pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 2:01pm

True, FROSTY....but compared to...Bangladesh or Kenya (right now)....would you rather be in the Dominican Republic???

See, it was YOUR analogy (DR to Cuba)...so if you want to analogize the two places, you have to ALL THE WAY. Can't say "Place A is better than Place B, but I'll ignore that Place A is oppressive and people can't leave it legally, because that doesn't fit my 'worse than Place B' analogy".

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 2:11pm
BTW...want to do an analogy of "Iceland vs Canada" and explain why Iceland is better???

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 2:12pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 2:11pm

ain't no place that's perfect................

Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 1:16pm

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:14pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 2:01pm | ignore

MASK has conceded the point. no need to rub it in his face. we know he's a great guy and a smart cookie.

but like so many of my fellow countrymen who i like and respect greatly, he takes for granted certain things others would kill and die for. thats just what happens when one is fortunate enough to grow up in disneyworld. you see the castle and the teacups and the giant mouse and that pretty fair skinned, dark haired girl with her posse of happy sex slaves and kind of forget about what lies on the other side of the veil. plus, you have that incessant merry "its a small world after all" hypnotic lullaby pumping into your neurons from cradle to grave and its a beautiful world.

but the fact that much of the cotton candy and foot long weiners and mousey ear hats are made out of the corpses of miserable peons whose lives have often been made more miserable by the very corporate overlords who have brought you this happy lala land of ever increasing plastic crap and artery clogging goodness is ever kept at a distance by those who want you to feel good, including yourself, and but for a few wet blanket idealists and depressio voices howling in the wilderness and derided for their suicidal goody two shoe decency by the wicked and powerful who have helped bring you this fun filled family friendly paradise...

its painful and hard to see beyond that veil...

and indeed cry me a river! life, even our artificial and artificially extended passages through the great disneyworld of freedom and democracy, is way too short to mope about weeping into one's bellybutton over the misery of poor invisible brownskinned funnyfolks bleeding in overthereland...and not even a mountain of gleaming plastic crap, 1000 channels to choose from, and the hilarious self destruction of pop idol goddesses can make one happy all the time in the empire of disneyworld.

thank god i'm a bad buddhist!!!!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 2:24pm
MASK has conceded the point. no need to rub it in his face. we know he's a great guy and a smart cookie.

Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 2:24pm

he did? oops.

i rub not. well, never intentionally.

a great guy -- 17,54,634% correct

a smart cookie -- well, maybe a bright biscuit ;+]

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:30pm
this fun filled family friendly pharaodise......

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:33pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 2:30pm

in his own way...which i respect.

lol...

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 2:35pm
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 2:24pm

life is good, bad buddha boy

[members.aol.com]

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:39pm
BTW, the President of the Dominican Republic, won election upon the failures of the previous administration and an OPPOSING political party. One was a nominal social democrat party, the present majority party is "center-left".

Uh...when was that last opposition party election for President of Cuba?!?!??!?

Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 2:39pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 2:39pm

hell yeah!

Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 2:41pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 2:39pm

the only way to truly know, is to live somewhere.

i'd love to try to live in both places.

i bet i'd be happy in either place.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:43pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 2:39pm

The 1952 election was a three-way race. Roberto Agramonte of the Ortodoxos party led in all the polls, followed by Dr. Aurelio Hevia of the Auténtico party, and running a distant third was Batista, who was seeking a return to office. Both front runners, Agramonte and Hevia in their own camps, had decided to name Col. Ramon Barquin, then a diplomat in Washington, DC to head the Cuban Armed Forces after the elections. Barquin was a top officer who commanded the respect of the professional army and had promised to eliminate corruption in the ranks. Batista feared that Barquin would oust him and his followers, and when it became apparent that Batista had little chance of winning, he staged a coup on 10 March 1952 and held power with the backing of a nationalist section of the army as a "provisional president" for the next two years. Justo Carrillo told Barquin in Washington in March 1952 that the inner circles knew that Batista had aimed the coup at him; they immediately began to conspire to oust Batista and restore democracy and civilian government in what was later dubbed La Conspiracion de los Puros de 1956 (Agrupacion Montecristi). In 1954 Batista agreed to elections. The Partido Auténtico put forward ex-President Grau as their candidate, but he withdrew amid allegations that Batista was rigging the elections in advance. Batista could then claim to be an elected President.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:49pm
The results of the Mexican general election of July 2, 2006 were controversial and are still being contested. According to Mexico's Federal Electoral Institute (IFE), the initial "Quick Count" determined the race was too close to call, and when the "Official Count" was complete, Felipe Calderón of the right-of-center National Action Party (PAN) had won by a difference of 243,934 votes (or 0.58%). The runner-up, Andrés Manuel López Obrador of the left-of-center Coalition for the Good of All (PRD, PT, Convergence), immediately challenged the results and has led massive marches, protests, and acts of civil resistance in Mexico City. On August 9, while protests continued to expand, a partial recount was undertaken by election officials after being ordered to do so by the country's Federal Electoral Tribunal (TEPJF, sometimes referred to by the acronym of its predecessor, the TRIFE). The tribunal ordered the recount of the polling stations that were ruled to have evidence of irregularities, which were about nine per cent of the total.[1] On September 5 the tribunal declared that Felipe Calderón met all the constitutional requirements in order to be elected, and was declared president-elect.[2] Some civil resistance acts have been mantained and attempt to encourage a change in the country's opinion, as well as other activities such as Luis Mandoki's documentary Fraude: México 2006.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:50pm
The outcome of the 2000 United States presidential election was not known for more than a month after balloting, because of the extended process of counting and then recounting of Florida presidential ballots. State results tallied on election night gave 246 electoral votes to Republican candidate George W. Bush and 255 to Democratic nominee Al Gore, with New Mexico (5), Oregon (7), and Florida (25) too close to call that evening. Mathematically, Florida's 25 electoral votes became the key to an election win, and although both New Mexico and Oregon were declared in favor of Gore over the next few days, Florida's statewide vote took center stage even as voting continued in western states. The debacle led to calls for electoral reform in Florida.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:52pm
ain't no place that's perfect.

Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:52pm
It's Uncle Tom Night at the Clinton's! It seems as though Black superdelegates are willing to ignore the wishes of their constituents and vote for Hillary Clinton at the convention. Shame on them. I can just imagine what it's like when the Clinton's have them over to discuss their vote....."Yessuh, massah Bill, we's don't care if our districts vote ninety percent for Obama and only ten percent for Miss Hillary. We's gonna vote at the convention for Miss Hillary. Halleluah."

Is it any wonder that Clinton's Black supporters are over the hill Tom's who would have probably told Martin Luther King to "hush up" and "don't rock the boat."

If Barack Obama has won more delegates in the caucuses and primaries and the Clinton's try to deny him the nomination with their superdelegates this will be far worse than what happened in the 2000 election.

Posted by mjkoch at 02/19/2008 @ 2:58pm
It seems as though Black superdelegates are willing to ignore the wishes of their constituents and vote for Hillary Clinton at the convention. Shame on them. I can just imagine what it's like when the Clinton's have them over to discuss their vote....."Yessuh, massah Bill, we's don't care if our districts vote ninety percent for Obama and only ten percent for Miss Hillary. We's gonna vote at the convention for Miss HIllary. Halleluah."

Is it any wonder that Clinton's Black supporters are over the hill Tom's who would have probably told Martin Luther King to "hush up" and "don't rock the boat."

If Barack Obama has won more delegates in the caucuses and primaries and the Clinton's try to deny him the nomination with their superdelegates this will be far worse than what happened in the 2000 election.

Posted by mjkoch at 02/19/2008 @ 2:59pm
It's not surprising the Clinton kneecappers do whatever they can, regardless of how unethical, to win the nomination - it's been their MO all along. In case you didn't understand before, these people have no morals. They may win the battle but will lose the very people - the young, progressives with consciences, and African-Americans - who give the Democratic party any soul it might have. They will destroy the Democratic Party and lose the general election, not that those things matter right now to the kneecappers.

Posted by Steve1us at 02/19/2008 @ 3:41pm
The Words Duval used in his prior speech, WERE NOT HIS WORDS EITHER, they are everyone's words used in most political speeches today!

Posted by bacalove at 02/19/2008 @ 4:58pm

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Clinton's Stolen Rhetoric

posted by Ari Melber on 02/18/2008 @ 3:55pm

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Clinton's Stolen Rhetoric

posted by Ari Melber on 02/18/2008 @ 3:55pm

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About the Authors

Ari Melber (Posts | Bio)

Ari Berman (Posts | Bio)

Christopher Hayes (Posts | Bio)

Cora Currier (Posts | Bio)

John Nichols (Posts | Bio)

Katrina vanden Heuvel (Posts | Bio)

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» The Notion

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