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RedditThe Hillary Clinton campaign is scrambling, hard, to pitch the story of the two speeches.
When The New York Times revealed this morning that Barack Obama had borrowed extensively from a speech by Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick to develop the soaring rhetoric of his recent addresses defending the politics of hope, the story was sourced only to "a rival campaign."
But now Congressman Jim McGovern, a Clinton backer from Massachusetts, and the Clinton campaign's communications director, Howard Wolfson, are out peddling the comparison in conference calls and interviews.
Patrick, who was supported in his 2006 gubernatorial campaign by Obama and who has returned the favor with an endorsement this year, is defending the Illinois senator. He says it would be ridiculous for Obama to credit the relatively unknown governor of Massachusetts for a few good lines, especially at this point in a national race where both candidates are sampling rhetoric from others.
But memories of another rhetorically-powerful candidate, Joe Biden, getting in trouble for using parts of a speech by British Labour Party leader Neil Kinnock in the run-up to the 1988 Democratic presidential race, linger. Biden actually got knocked out of the 1988 race on something of an unfair rap -- he usually credited Kinnock but got taped one time when he failed to do so. But all anyone remembers is that the senator from Delaware was charged with stealing a speech.
The Clinton camp is counting on a similar mark against Obama, who has been charged previously with borrowing lines from Patrick. But the Obama camp is betting that their man is in a far different position now than was Joe Biden in 1987, and that voters will not be moved by what seems to be a desperate ploy late in a campaign season that is trending Obama's way.
Decide for yourself:
Here's Patrick in 2006 on the campaign trail in Massachusetts responding to a foe's suggestion that he was long on rhetoric and short on substance:
"Her dismissive point, and I hear it a lot from her staff, is all I have to offer is words. Just words. 'We holds these truths to be self-evident -- that all men are created equal' -- just words. Just words.'We have nothing to fear but fear itself' -- just words.'Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country -- just words. 'I have a dream' -- just words."
Here's Obama speaking Saturday night to Wisconsin Democrats:
"Don't tell me words don't matter. 'I have a dream' -- just words. 'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal' -- just words. 'We have nothing to fear but fear itself' - just words. Just speeches."
And if you want to compare the rhetorical flourishes of the governor and the senator -- Patrick might just be the better speaker -- here from Chicago Sun-Times reporter Lynn Sweet are the videos of Patrick from his 2006 campaign and Obama from last week.
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He barely tripped and they're trying to spin it into a fall down a flight of stairs and a broken neck.
If they're smart, they may score a point or two, but not much.
If they're dumb, they'll overplay this (Lord knows, FRANKGRITS and the "newbie one-timer" Hillaryites will here)...and it'll look desperate and "mean-spirited" and back-fire.
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 12:52pm
Who gets credit is unimportant compared to the message itself - WORDS DO MATTER!
Are the Camp Clinton folks suggesting that Obama used Patrick's lines WITHOUT his permission? If not, then this is a non-story and a desperation ploy by a Clinton campaign with its back against the wall!
Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 1:02pm
Well, there is the pesky point (hsuB/cHeney admin tend to neglect) that indeed, one must actually 'understand' what the words 'mean'-- in order to place some immense valuable consideration in that they 'do matter'.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 1:27pm
Well we all know they really don't want to go there-- really now:
"It depends on what the meaning of the word 'is' is. If the--if he--if 'is' means is and never has been, that is not--that is one thing. ...
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 1:31pm
um...are there like...copyright laws for political speeches? this is a truly pathetic and meaningless ploy by a desperate would be despot.
of the hundreds (thousands?) of speeches mr. obama has delivered i'd be damned suprised if none of them contained anything anyone else has said...silly. stupid.
HOW STUPID ARE YOU AMERICA? MS. CLINTON THINKS YOU ARE BUTT IGNORANT AND RETARDED.
so when obama says, "i have a dream!" must he annotate and footnote it? how about "four score and seven years ago..."(lincoln, 1963)????
puke this vitriol back in their faces, folks. THEY THINK YOU ARE IDIOTS. PUNISH THEM!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 1:32pm
er...(lincoln, 1863)...lol
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 1:33pm
At least Obama didn't flunk the bar exam!
Posted by Adscititious at 02/18/2008 @ 1:36pm
As noted above, anybody want to oppose this bet?...
FRANKGRITS shows up and RUNS with this for a week (even long after the HRC Campaign has given up on it)?
Anybody?...heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 1:43pm
Not a big deal. Blair ripped words from Clinton. God, Bob Dylan and Shakespeare have done the same thing. Plus, Obama wasn't stealing anyways. Obviously, the two a close relationship. If McGovern and Clinton camp press this it will only backfire.
Posted by mfwahl at 02/18/2008 @ 1:48pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 1:43pm
I'm a betting man. I lost before on the Frank bet but I will take it.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 1:50pm
Has this woman not figured out that trying to low ball Obama is only hurting her campaign? These tactics are what lost her SC and gave him such a big push. If she keeps doing this she is going to push herself right off the ticket. She needs to stick to the issues and stop trying to go for the knees.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 1:52pm
Huge mistake on the Clinton's part, this is going to backfire. Do we really want a person who can't even manage her campaign running our country? Political Humor [hillarydivides.com]
Posted by indep2008 at 02/18/2008 @ 1:58pm
Relax, folks. Obama predicted the smearing a while ago. Link here [azstarnet.com]. Just need to ride out this wave of dirty politics. Same old, same old from the Clintons.
Hey - undecided voters: remember this negative campaigning. This is your future on Hillary Clinton.
Posted by nepat at 02/18/2008 @ 1:59pm
Wow, you'd think there was a primary happening tomorrow with this out-of-nowhere attack.
Oh, right.
Posted by PeteyG at 02/18/2008 @ 2:03pm
"The New York Times revealed this morning that Barack Obama had borrowed extensively from a speech by Massachusetts Governor Deval Patrick."
Three lines out of several hundred? Borrowed "extensively"?
Posted by jet59 at 02/18/2008 @ 2:03pm
Wow, I was about to bet that FrankG. doesn't even show up....
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:04pm
Been wondering where Hillary got her "I see an America..." line for her Super Tuesday speech? From Jimmy Carter: http://www.etsu.edu/cas/history/docs/carterseg.htm
Really, Wolfson. Before firing off the cannons, you should make sure they're pointed in the right direction.
Posted by nepat at 02/18/2008 @ 2:04pm
They neglected to point out all the times they both used 'the', 'is', 'a', 'we', 'have', 'are',...
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:06pm
please tell me that we hold our presidential candidates to a higher ethical standard than we do our high school and college students. students are expelled from college for such behavior.
the topic of senator's obama's plagiarism is a legitimate one for senator clinton's campaign and for the electorate to explore and critique. obviously, it's not the only one. if senator clinton has plagiarized, then her behavior should also be critiqued.
Posted by txyellowdawg at 02/18/2008 @ 2:21pm
I seem to remember Clinton sounding a little bit like a former Senator from NC a week ago. I think I remember her being in Virginia and uttering the phrase 'this had been the fight of my life.' Using lines a friend and compatriot has used - Unoriginal but harmless. Appropriating the language of a rival you had been critisizing a few days before - Wicked, tricksy and false. So if they want to play this game, I think she loses.
And when we all know that the candidates don't write their own speeches anyway, or at least only write parts and give direction for the rest, why does it matter that Obama's speech writer picked up a few lines? How does this reflect on Obama?
Posted by dentedpat at 02/18/2008 @ 2:30pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/18/2008 @ 1:50pm
Just so I'm clear, you think FRANK WON'T run with "Obama's a plagerizer" for a week?...or were you just joking?
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 2:04pm
Can we GET that lucky, HSUB?
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 2:36pm
clinton is not only getting nasty but also stupid.
people who live in glass houses...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 2:37pm
Neither noted in their speech where they lifted their quotes from-- and as well, how many different ways can one actually make that exact same point without using those same well know phrases? I contend that one can only use a few political universal quotes that do not need citation nor can one state the idea of contention with very many rhetoric alternatives and make the same point-- simply and directly. Try it.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:37pm
Gee, I guess the Clinton campaign really do not believe they are "only words."
Posted by oraibi1952 at 02/18/2008 @ 2:37pm
Posted by TXYELLOWDAWG 02/18/2008 @ 2:21pm
You really don't get this, do you?
Obama and Patrick are CLOSE FRIENDS and share ideas on policy, campaign themes, as well as speeches. They share the same campaign manager, David Axelrod.
The speech format - especially the inspirational variety as opposed to the academic lecture - does not lend itself well to comprehensive sourcing like an academic paper. Therefore, the key issue is not attribution but permission.
There is no question that Deval Patrick has given Obama permission to use his words, and vice-versa, so this story is another Mark Penn stunt to try to diminish Obama's speaking ability and/or character.
Instead of feeding the MSM with phony critiques and smears of Obama, Camp Hillary should hire better speech writers themselves and quit lashing out with envy and jealousy at Obama's incredible oratory skills that are inspiring voters to turn out in record numbers.
Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 2:39pm
er, rhetorical
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:39pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/18/2008 @ 1:50pm
Just so I'm clear, you think FRANK WON'T run with "Obama's a plagerizer" for a week?...or were you just joking?
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 2:04pm
Can we GET that lucky, HSUB?
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 2:36pm
Yup, why bother... considering all the dodo that had been thrown at Bill per his twisting of the word-- 'is', and how meaningful it 'is'... Kinda a contradictory argument if you get my drift.
Look at how important this 'is' about something as unimportant as it 'is'.... Why it's both! Now that has traction. NOT.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:50pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 2:47pm
Below is one specific change Obama is planning concerning getting citizens involved in making the public policy decisions that affect us.
Maybe you can help us by telling us Hillary's plan for citizen involvement? If she doesn't have a plan, please be honest enough to admit that she wants to continue the Washington politics-as-usual practice of shutting ordinary citizens out of government decision making!
II. Create a Transparent and Connected Democracy
Open Up Government to its Citizens: The Bush Administration has been one of the most secretive, closed administrations in American history. Our nation's progress has been stifled by a system corrupted by millions of lobbying dollars contributed to political campaigns, the revolving door between government and industry, and privileged access to inside information--all of which have led to policies that favor the few against the public interest.
An Obama presidency will use cutting-edge technologies to reverse this dynamic, creating a new level of transparency, accountability and participation for America's citizens. Technology-enabled citizen participation has already produced ideas driving Obama's campaign and its vision for how technology can help connect government to its citizens and engage citizens in a democracy.
Barack Obama will use the most current technological tools available to make government less beholden to special interest groups and lobbyists and promote citizen participation in government decision-making. Obama will integrate citizens into the actual business of government by:
• Making government data available online in universally accessible formats to allow citizens to make use of that data to comment, derive value, and take action in their own communities. Greater access to environmental data, for example, will help citizens learn about pollution in their communities, provide information about local conditions back to government and empower people to protect themselves.
• Establishing pilot programs to open up government decision-making and involve the public in the work of agencies, not simply by soliciting opinions, but by tapping into the vast and distributed expertise of the American citizenry to help government make more informed decisions.
• Requiring his appointees who lead Executive Branch departments and rulemaking agencies to conduct the significant business of the agency in public, so that any citizen can watch a live feed on the Internet as the agencies debate and deliberate the issues that affect American society. He will ensure that these proceedings are archived for all Americans to review, discuss and respond. He will require his appointees to employ all the technological tools available to allow citizens not just to observe, but also to participate and be heard in these meetings.
• Restoring the basic principle that government decisions should be based on the best-available, scientifically-valid evidence and not on the ideological predispositions of agency officials.
• Lifting the veil from secret deals in Washington with a web site, a search engine, and other web tools that enable citizens easily to track online federal grants, contracts, earmarks, and lobbyist contacts with government officials.
• Giving the American public an opportunity to review and comment on the White House website for five days before signing any non-emergency legislation.
• Bringing democracy and policy deliberations directly to the people by requiring his Cabinet officials to have periodic national online town hall meetings to answer questions and discuss issues before their agencies.
• Employing technologies, including blogs, wikis and social networking tools, to modernize internal, cross-agency, and public communication and information sharing to improve government decisionmaking.
Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 2:56pm
Sounds rather Al Gorian...
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 2:57pm
Frank-The vast majority of politicians are long on wind and short on substance and that includes the Clintons.You are still unable to show that Hillary has experience that matters.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 2:58pm
Frank-All politicians lie so every person who backs a politician needs to apologize for the lying.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 3:00pm
oh really the Clinton campaign is grasping at straws and this latest dust-up is just silly.
Has anyone seen a list of the lines that Hillary has borrowed from both Obama and Edwards?
Additionally, Obama's friend Patrick, suggested he use the lines!
Just more tempest in a teapot.
I can not believe that I ever considered voting for Hillary.
Posted by kristineMV at 02/18/2008 @ 3:07pm
people who live in glass houses...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 2:37pm
actually, the clintons live in a plexiglass house,
tougher, less transparent..........
and plastic.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 3:13pm
Frank-I've been alive too long to need to read that book.I was in my forties when the Clintons were in the White House and know that she has little experience.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 3:15pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 2:47pm
search in google if you remember the name.
lots of other sites pick up these ramblings.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 3:15pm
good musicians borrow,
great musicians steal......
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 3:18pm
"No new taxes", is a promise one can clearly argue has great odds of being a lie considering the 'former' just endorsed the 'wannabe', used that very same quote without citing its reference as well... Wonder why not?
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:20pm
McCave really wants to win to lose.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:20pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 3:18pm
Picasso said something similar.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:22pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 2:50pm
I think the easy way out for FRANK will be to say "That was Bill, not Hillary".
Oddly he seems to be continuing his tack of "Obama's an empty suit" and leaving the "plagerism" thing to the side.
His new line though about how "Reality will kick him and his supporters in the ass. The lobbyists and big corporate will take him down rather abruptly." is rather telling, huh?
So Her Majesty won't have that trouble because....
(the obvious answer being "because she won't be OPPOSING the lobbyists and big corporate!")
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 3:25pm
Picasso said something similar.
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 3:22pm
as did stravinsky.....
i googled it looking for the original source
but nada.........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 3:30pm
OK, it's not going to make me not vote for him, but frankly it does affect my perception of him as the sincere and thoughtful candidate, especially because it's not the first time I've noticed him doing that. A while back he was using that phrase about the definition of insanity (i.e."doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results") and I happened to run across one of Bill Clintons speeches on youtube where he used exactly that same line. I think that's careless, and leads to the impression that he wants to take credit for things that aren't his. And it's completely unnecessary - he's obviously an articulate person so he should be coming up with his own words, and where he wants to use someone else's line let him demonstrate his sense of ethics by giving credit for it.
So, Obama, if you're listening, you need to take more care with the image that's so central to your campaign. In fact, you need to have more respect for that image, because what a lot of people are really voting for here is a sense of goodness, and if you're not committed to holding that stance, then you might not be it.
Posted by subsam1 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:39pm
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 2:50pm
I think the easy way out for FRANK will be to say "That was Bill, not Hillary".
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 3:25pm
Yeah, well there's no mistaking that it is in point of fact-- Billary.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:39pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 3:25pm
hmm...where is he?
that should do it. i'm good at summoning yankeegrits...to mention is to summon...
just for good measure let me throw in some magic words...
Klaatu barada nikto!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 3:40pm
Sounds like desperation is in the air.......
Posted by quattro20 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:42pm
Picasso said something similar.
Posted by HSUBFOOLS 02/18/2008 @ 3:22pm
but nada.........
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 3:30pm
"Pablo Picasso, the first living artist to be featured in the Louvre, influenced the artistic world in a uniquely original way. So why is he known for saying "Good artists copy, great artists steal"?
It's true. Picasso really said, "Good artists copy, great artists steal." Or at least, since his death in 1973, everyone believes he said that."
http://www.sitepoint.com/article/copy-great-designers-steal
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:45pm
This is much to do about nothing( I am paraphrasing Shakespeare). I do not want the Wolfson plagarism squad to come after me. The Clinton campaign is trying to kill the message of HOPE so her message of SOLUTIONS can win the day. To report this as a story instead as comedic relief from a lost campaign is sad. The CHANGE Election( Hillary stole this from Obama who may have absconded it from Mr. Duval) is what is driving voter turnout. We can not lose sight that the Candidate of Experience ( Hillary) (She stole this from any number of former candidates) can not invigorate the masses that are needed to win this election. The divisive and personal attack politics( Bill and the Right wing conspirators should be credited with this but I would go back to Ronald Regan and the Welfare Queen comments as the starting point) need to end. Vote for a participatory republican candidate(Obama)versus the dynastic and imperial presidency of Hillary. I do not know who I stole this from.
Posted by TLW at 02/18/2008 @ 3:47pm
And, by the way, whoever said that Hillary should give him credit for the word "change" obviously also forgot that that was central in Bill's speeches too. Not that using the word "change" over and over again makes Hillary look like anything but a fool - if the best you can do is use your competition's language, you've pretty much lost the contest.
Really, it's amazing how bad everyone's speeches are...
Posted by subsam1 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:47pm
Frank, blogs are pages that get many entries posted on them. So when Katrina's peice goes from most recently published to fifth most recently published it would be fourth on the list. In other words click the Campaign '08 link and scroll down you lazy moron.
Subsam1,
That line about insanity has been around for hundreds of years. Ben Franklin used it. Using that line is not plagarism, it is using a cliche.
Posted by dentedpat at 02/18/2008 @ 3:49pm
Posted by SUBSAM1 02/18/2008 @ 3:39pm
I heard Al Gore and probably 10 other well known politicians as well as 100's of academics and comedians use that very same quote. But it's only Barack that needs to be careful?
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 3:51pm
I understand they are trying to state their may be some plagiarism as a result of Obama adding the phrase 'just words.' to the end of the famous quotes.
Of course the famous quotes themselves such as 'four score and seven years ago'...are iconic phrases that don't require crediting the original author.
So they try to make this rather specious argument, that the quotes don't require credit, but they overall 'style' of the response does require a credit.
But, waitaminute, not really. It's going to be the case, that when faced with the same kind of attacks, a similar type of response is inevitable. Because the natural answer to this type of attack of using just words, is to describe how important words may be.
It's also interesting to note, that Obama used the words of Lincoln, from the Gettysburg address, that address itself being, by some historians account, very similar to the funeral of Pericles from the Peloponnesion war....we don't know for sure...
Lincoln never gave any credit to another author...
Posted by MarkTime at 02/18/2008 @ 3:53pm
To quote Obama's words if you pardon the pun " The further a long you get in this campaign the sillier and siller things get"
Honestly the Clintons should be ashamed they are looking desperate. Am I seriously suppose to believe that Hillary hasnt borrowed words from other speeches without giving the author credit. Somehow I doubt that.
Carol
Posted by harriscrl3 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:53pm
The Clinton campaign, in desperation, has turned so sour that just about every media clip or article about Clinton give us the feeling that we're burying our noses in mildewing laundry.
We bloggers have hyperlinks to keep us from having to construct sentences which drone on about "as Blair said" who was "quoting Churchill" and whose remarks were "subsequently picked up by John Kerry" who, during a dedication ceremony in Billerica "mentioned them to Duval Patrick" who passed them along to "yours truly, Barack Obama," etc. etc. ad infinitum.
As someone [forgotten) said on CSpan [probably] the other day [maybe a week ago], there hasn't been a single presidential candidate since god knows when [roughly speaking] who hasn't pointed out the need for "change." That makes all subsequent candidates serial plagiarists. Fortunately, thanks to the dumbing down of America, no one notices except the losing candidate, mad as a hornet and desperate as an exhausted harridan.
Posted by saetias at 02/18/2008 @ 3:55pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 3:05pm
Frank you're so funny. To make a broad generalization about a man saying that he has been faking it his whole life. What precisely is he faking Frank? I pose the question what makes Hillary the best candidate other than your trumpet of experience because in the reality the rest of the normal people live in, she is no more experienced than Obama and if she try's to run on experience she will get stomped out thoroughly by McCain, who not only has more experience but also is a war hero. She is not enough of a counter-point to him. If Hillary runs you ought as well vote for the McCain they are basically the same person, Hillary has a few different domestic policies, their foreign policies are very similar, Hillary is jut as full of shit, but McCain has more experience which in your book is the most important thing.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:56pm
Has anyone noticed that as Hillary falls more and more behind that Frank gets more and more full of venom and hate? That he slips a little more over the edge of Hillary mania.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:57pm
The Clinton campaign would rather burn down the Democratic Party than lose to Barack Obama - this should speak volume about the damage that the Clintons will bring to the Democratic Party.
Can you say goodbye to Democratic Party control of Congress a la the 1990s?
Posted by oraibi1952 at 02/18/2008 @ 3:59pm
...using the word "change" over and over again...
Posted by SUBSAM1 02/18/2008 @ 3:47pm
I've taught a drawing lesson, for now decades, on transitioning from B&W to use of color media where I repeat the word "change" almost a hundred times within one hour. Students have told me years later that they can still hear me in their heads repeating that word "change" while they draw. It does have sticking power.
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 4:05pm
Klaatu barada nikto!
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 3:40pm
Say it right, though, man. Else Evil IBBLE and the Deadites will attack!
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:16pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/18/2008 @ 3:57pm
I've been saying that since Obama's winning streak started and Super Tuesday didn't "settle it" for Her Nibs.
I'm also 50-50 that if she loses Texas and Ohio (or just loses the nomination), FRANK will abandon us "in disgust" (if for a few weeks) and then come back as a die-hard McCain supporter and warn us of our "Doom! Doom!" if "the mulatto" is elected.
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:17pm
Frank-I live in Missouri.We already voted.No point in reading,but, like I said, I already know about the Clintons.That's one of the reasons I voted for Dole.If everyone had voted for Dole then we would have had no Clinton scandals and no Dubya.I'd take Dole or his Democratic replacement over Dubya any day.The Clintons have bad mojo and brought Dubya down on us.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 4:18pm
I don't hate anyone except Rush Limbaugh. I have no venom either, just sadness that we democrats had a chance to take back the WH and now, regardless of what happens in the dem primary, that no longer is a gimmee. You can thank Barack Obama for that. He has successfully divided the democratic party.----Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:14pm
Notice that? FRANK bemoans Democrats losing a "gimmee" election...but says if Obama is the nominee, HE'll vote for McCain, thus helping to assure that defeat.
Does he think he's making sense?!?!??
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:19pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 4:16pm |
heehee..or frankshitz and the con-tards...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:19pm
Frank-Blaming Obama because he dared to run against the Clintons for dividing the party is lame.The party was divided before he came along.Look at votes in congress.Democrats have everything from neo cons to flaming liberals.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 4:22pm
Guess ol' Al Gore will have to just show up at the all divided up convention to mend the division...
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 4:25pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:14pm
Actually Frank people like YOU have divided the party. You openly said here that if Obama gets the nod you would vote for McCain. So aren't people like you the ones doing the damage. Not the person who is bringing out record amounts of voters in new demographics? Aren't the ones that are saying if it's not my candidate then it's no candidate. You have no right to reprimand anyone for turning face on their party. You are a fair weather fan.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 4:34pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:30pm
If they chose not to go with the "experienced" candidate when they chose to not go with Hillary why would they all of a sudden turn coat when it came to the generals? I don't know if you see how little sense you are making Frank. You are saying they are going to ignore the person who has marketed their self as more experience by going for Obama and then all of a sudden come general turn coat and go not only with the more experienced candidate but the Repub also. Come on Frank get a grip on a reality or at least start making some sense.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 4:38pm
So quoting from T.Jefferson, MLK and F. Roosevelt is plagiarism? How silly!
Posted by Dearg at 02/18/2008 @ 4:43pm
Did that already idiot. I've been here alot longer than you. I know quite well how this site works. Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/17/2008 @ 7:56pm | ignore this person
Here [tinyurl.com] is FRANKs ridiculous post. That sort of makes him the idiot.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 4:43pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:30pm
well, frank, if yer right yer right and if yer wrong yer wrong. assholes and opinions - everybody's got one...
all shall be revealed...
besides, your son is home and out of danger's way, and mccain WILL probably treat the veterans who fight our corporate overlords' wars, so...
go ahead and vote for him. you and yours are out of danger and thats what counts, eh?
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 4:49pm
Okay, it's approaching true insanity...
"If B.O. gets the nod, dems will go for the experienced candidate and elect McCain."----Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:30pm
So after HUGE turn-out and the most exciting candidacy in decades for the Democrats "dems" will vote for John McCain?!?!?!!??
Lord, if Obama wins the nomination, FRANK will literally become HAPPY on this blog!
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:54pm
Barack Obama and Deval Patrick are friends. They've talked about how to respond to the common problem of being attacked for their soaring nature of their speeches. They came up with a solution - "Just words?" - that works.
That's not plagiarism. It's collaboration... something we're not too used to doing here in America. (But something I think we'd all benefit from learning how to do.)
Posted by Steve Brant at 02/18/2008 @ 4:54pm
If B.O. gets the nod, dems will go for the experienced candidate and elect McCain. It's a lose/lose for the democrats.
Would you vote for Dick Cheney because he has more "experience" than Barack Obama?
If not, then this "we'll vote for McCain" nonsense is just plain stupid!
And on the experience question, you have failed to explain how "any" person, including Hillary, can claim their spouse's work experience on their own resume?
This "resume fraud" would get you fired by most employers so how does Hillary think she can keep fooling the voter with this fraud?
Posted by Metteyya at 02/18/2008 @ 4:55pm
If Hillary gets the nod, the youth go back to their hip-hop.
Gee that's not too racist.
There's a pretty good chanch that the repugs can take back the Senate as well. Thank you B.O.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:15pm | ignore this person
Okay, so if McCain gets elected, he'll somehow have reverse coattails that will increase the Democratic majority to the point that it can stop McCain from continuing the war BUT, Obama's running for the nomination will somehow give the Republicans (whom Frank is considering voting for) the Senate back. As I've said before, Frank has bitten himself and gone mad.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 4:56pm
If Hillary gets the nod, the youth go back to their hip-hop.
Gee that's not too racist.
There's a pretty good chanch that the repugs can take back the Senate as well. Thank you B.O.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:15pm | ignore this person
Okay, so if McCain gets elected, he'll somehow have reverse coattails that will increase the Democratic majority to the point that it can stop McCain from continuing the war BUT, Obama's running for the nomination will somehow give the Republicans (whom Frank is considering voting for) the Senate back. As I've said before, Frank has bitten himself and gone mad.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 4:56pm
Would you vote for Dick Cheney because he has more "experience" than Barack Obama? ----Posted by METTEYYA 02/18/2008 @ 4:55pm
He won't answer that. He CAN'T. By every rationale he's offered for why "It's Hillary or else McCain" and "experience"...FG would completely contradict himself if he said "no"...and look like a maniac if he said "yes".
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 4:56pm
Lest anyone forget. Plagiarism is a crime. If it was clinton you would be screaming for her head. But,obama, enough said. Wake up clinton haters. When Bill was president we had a great 8 years.
Posted by ron-b at 02/18/2008 @ 4:57pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:30pm
Others tend to differ with your opinion... Just a few:
http://www.blog.newsweek.com/blogs/stumper/archive/2008/02/15/al-gore-to -the-rescue.aspx
or
http://tinyurl.com/ys9agr
http://www.asiantribune.com/?q=node/9669
http://www.danablankenhorn.com/2008/02/new-york-vs-was.html
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 4:59pm
Frank-You never can refute facts,but just claim that people who disagree with you are ignorant.You keep mentioning an irrelevant book to people who were alive and politically aware at the time that Bill ran and for his entire presidency.You keep claiming that only one of the two candidates who are running neck and neck is dividing the party.You now justify voting for and funding of the war.You keep harping on experience when you know that McCain has far more.As far as I'm concerned Hillary has the wrong kind of experience.So does McCain.I don't care in the slightest if you put me on ignore because you can never come up with factual responses,anyway.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 5:01pm
This is one of the most absurd attacks in political history.
First off, 'plagiarism' is UNAUTHORIZED use of someone else's writings or speeches. As was made clear, Patrick URGED Obama to use this line of reasoning against Clinton's assault on Obama's rhetorical skills.
Secondly, it is CLINTON who is borrowing from Obama's speeches when she says "fired up, ready to go" and about a million other things that she stole from Obama and Edwards. This is the case of THE POT CALLING THE KETTLE BLACK!
Posted by HardCoreDem at 02/18/2008 @ 5:06pm
Democrats rejected their candidates that had real experience so obviously that really isn't important.
Posted by i'm nobody at 02/18/2008 @ 5:06pm
Apparently speeches mattered in putting Hillary on the path of public life. "As a young woman, Hillary Rodham was active in young Republican groups and campaigned for Republican presidential nominee Barry Goldwater in 1964. She was inspired to work in some form of public service after hearing a speech in Chicago by Reverend Martin Luther King." biography.com
Posted by rayatz1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:07pm
"If Hillary gets the nod, the youth go back to their hip-hop". Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:30pm
Anyone care to interpret the subtext of the above quote?
Posted by Be Good at 02/18/2008 @ 5:13pm
Just have to comment on the "B.O. has divided the Democratic Party" nonsense. Dude, the party was divided way, way, way B4 Obama made the scene. I seem to remember some pretty intense divisiveness on the streets of Chicago in 1968. I also remember some bad feelings and accusations of "divisiveness" when Teddy ran against Jimmy in the 1980 primaries. And this leaves aside the Dixiecrats and how the "Northern liberals" (in this case, read Harry S Truman of that well known Northern liberal enclave, MISSOURI) destroyed Democratic unity and led to Eisenhower's victory in 1952. But hay, that there's all just that there bunk y'all call history.
But look at what happened more recently with the Clintons, triangulation & the New Democrats' co-optation of Nixon's "Southern Strategy." When they told the Democratic left wing (that's the populist, reform-minded wing) to "sit on it & spin" 'cause where were the Lefties going to go when the Clinton Democrats decided to remake themselves as the party of Wall Street & the vested interests and win elections as the Republican Lite party . . . that was a split indeed. So where did these disenchanted, disaffected Lefties go? Straight to Ralph Nader & the Greens. Hence a W administration and all of woe, ruin, and gnashing of teeth that have ensued.
So Frank'n'Grits and his ilk ain't had 'nuff o' that yit. They all wanna reload an' do'er all over agin. Well, we'll see. It's up to what the Supers decide now.
But I'll go with what a very sagacious observer with a trick rope and lively wit once said: "I'm not a member of any organized party. I'm a Democrat."
Posted by goyadad at 02/18/2008 @ 5:21pm
...just sadness.....regardless of what happens in the dem primary, that no longer is a gimmee....
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 4:14pm
Don't know if I made your `honor list' but if you read this, you need to read MASK......he has NOT flip-flopped on his belief no matter which Dem runs, the General is going Dem's way.....something like 85% confidence.....you need his cheerleading, very badly :)
Posted by Happy at 02/18/2008 @ 5:23pm
FRANK will literally become HAPPY on this blog!
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 4:54pm
ROTFLMAO!!! He has to unwind his hate of Rush....one of the secrets to true HAPPINESS!
Posted by Happy at 02/18/2008 @ 5:27pm
FRANK will literally become HAPPY on this blog!
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 4:54pm
ROTFLMAO!!! He has to unwind his hate of Rush....one of the secrets to true HAPPINESS!
Posted by HAPPY 02/18/2008 @ 5:27pm
Hehehehe.....this just jumped to the top of Page 1!!
Posted by Happy at 02/18/2008 @ 5:32pm
besides, your son is home and out of danger's way, and mccain WILL probably treat the veterans who fight our corporate overlords' wars, so...
go ahead and vote for him. you and yours are out of danger and thats what counts, eh?
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 4:49pm | ignore this person
Be careful, pointing that out got me placed on his "Ignore" list.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 5:40pm
you need his cheerleading, very badly :)
Posted by HAPPY 02/18/2008 @ 5:23pm
Oh don't be deceived Frank doesn't need cheerleading this is just another one of his tactics to make us want to vote or Hillary. Frank in no way cares if the Dem's win Frank cares if Hillary wins. He has already said that if Obama wins the primary he is voting McCain. The thing he right now totes as the worst thing that could happen he has already said he would do if his "entitled" candidate can't have the nod they were always "supposed" to have.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:41pm
Also Frank has yet to show us how Hillary plans to change Washington.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:43pm
The question isn't really whether or not the words are identical. They pretty much are. The question is: is it plagiarism when Deval supports Obama on the use of his words and when Deval and Obama openly state that they often share lines and ideas for speeches between each other?
I tend to think this is much ado about nothing considering that every candidate - with maybe the exception of Kucinich - has stolen or borrowed phrases and ideas from each other, and if not each other, their policy advisers (for ex: neither Obama nor Hillary can be credited with the idea of "green jobs" - that's an idea that came out a few years ago without the input of any of the Dem candidates). Add to that the fact that Deval and Obama are actually close friends and that Deval sanctions Obama's use of his words -- at that point, I'm forced to wonder why anyone would bother with such a story after reading it today.
And we'd be fooling ourselves if Hillary were to never take a line from other people's speeches. Her campaign people have since hedged about that fact and have refused to give a straight answer.
Anyway, originality during a campaign stump speech isn't the issue here. After all, the candidates don't write their own speeches -- speech writers do. Plagiarism is everywhere in politics. That's why speeches and political ideas don't have copyrights.
Let's get back to the real issues and force these two candidates to argue about *real* stuff like the economy and the war.
Posted by siberia9 at 02/18/2008 @ 5:52pm
Posted by HAPPY 02/18/2008 @ 5:32pm |
HAPP, I think you understand that I meant you and FRANK will have nearly identical opinions of the GOP nominee.
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 5:58pm
I've heard that Barack Obama plagiarized Patrick's kindergarten essays. People close to the senator are reportedly also worried that, if elected, he'll play with his interns' words in the Oval Office.
Hillary, a champion of the working class? Give me a break. This is the biggest fairytale I've ever seen.
Posted by catuskoti at 02/18/2008 @ 6:04pm
Cuuuuh'mon, Hillary! First, you say that we shouldn't listen to Obama because all he does is talk . . . no action. Now, you're telling us we should listen, even intently . . . because he plagiarized? Even now it's come to light that Deval granted Obama permission to use the phraseology. How many times does Obama have to defend his oratory? Are these the hard-hitting things you would have brought to those four debates you're so eager to engage? Sorry, but I for one am gratified the whining will be limited to only two debates.
Posted by tfseem at 02/18/2008 @ 6:33pm
Posted by RON-B 02/18/2008 @ 4:57pm
Actually, plagiarism is not a crime. It's dishonest, but not illegal. Further, this isn't an instance of it. Plagiarism requires passing off an idea of another as one's own, and this isn't so much of an idea as an expression of it.
Rather ironic to be hearing this from the Clinton camp when her book "Living History" was written by other people but she didn't credit them. Again, not illegal, but dishonest? Yes. Add in all the little pieces she has coopted for her speeches from elsewhere and it has a very pot calling the kettle quality to it.
Posted by srjenkins at 02/18/2008 @ 6:38pm
Cuuuuh'mon, Hillary! First, you tell us not to listen to Obama . . . he's all talk and no action. Now, you tell us to listen to Obama, even intently . . . because he plagiarized? Even now, Obama admits Deval suggested he use the phraseology. And in fact Obama significantly changed the phraseology to include other great phrases from history. Is the Clinton camp now on task to review all of Obama's former speeches for plagiarism . . . er, good luck with that . . . and the Democratic presidential nomination. If her campers have time for this, perhaps this is why she is losing the Democratic nomination. Is this one of the hard-hitting issues Hillary wanted to highlight for those four debates? I, for one, am gratified the whining will be limited to just two debates.
Posted by tfseem at 02/18/2008 @ 6:48pm
Lord, if Obama wins the nomination, FRANK will literally become HAPPY on this blog!
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 4:54pm
stolen rhetoric:
************************************************
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/17/2008 @ 9:52pm
ah! to mention is to conjure!!! more proof of my solipsist reality!
"If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken
Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools"
hey...maybe hillery will make a nice vp for mccain! that should make you happy!
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/17/2008 @ 10:02pm
**************************************************
that should make you happy!
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/17/2008 @ 10:02pm
FRANK is HAPPY?
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/17/2008 @ 10:04pm
watch it, "obama"!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:10pm
Actually, plagiarism is not a crime. It's dishonest, but not illegal.
Posted by SRJENKINS 02/18/2008 @ 6:38pm
well, it SHOULD BE.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 8:12pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 8:10pm
Imagine both FRANKGRITS and HAPPY using the same words of praise for the same candidate. One a supposed liberal, the other a declared conservative. One bemoaning the loss of a "gimmee" for the Democrats...the other CELEBRATING that.
Fascinating!
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 9:22pm
Posted by DENTEDPAT 02/18/2008 @ 2:30pm
"Unoriginal but harmless……"
Agreed. This line of complaint serves only to show Hillary's desperation. The fireworks begin when she, through her shills, work the super-delegates and get the MI and FL delegates seated.
Posted by Downtown at 02/18/2008 @ 9:36pm
Fascinating!
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 9:22pm
actually, what i think is happening is the "ol' brain-switcheroo" machine like they did on gilligan's island or the flintstones.
happy is becoming old frank,
and frank is becoming old happy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 9:37pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 9:37pm
And don't forget "Turnabout Intruder"...last episode of Classic Trek! Shatner acts like his brain is actually a female's and throws hissies!
Posted by Mask at 02/18/2008 @ 9:41pm
Keith Olberman on MSNBC debunked the issue of "plagiarism" very successfully: (1)Obama and Deval Patrick wrote an article published in the Boston Observer last year in which they candidly discussed the fact that as friends, they shared many ideas and phrases with each other. (2)He showed a clip of an Obama speech last December in which he stated something and then acknowledged right then that he had borrowed this from his good friend Deval Patrick (3) Olberman showed another clip in which Hillary said something and then quoted a biblical passage - identical to a speech her husband had given two years earlier. Then another example, in which Hillary borrowed a line from something John Edwards had said several months earlier. The bigger issue here is, as all the commentators on TV tonight stated, that Hillary is desperate at this point. She needs to worry more about her husband's angry interaction with audience members during a speech he gave recently. Bill is perceived as a loose cannon who simply is unable to back away from the spotlight for any length of time - he is a real detriment to her campaign, unfortunately.
Posted by Sue in PA at 02/18/2008 @ 10:01pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 9:41pm
hey the whole episode is on youtube
here's part one:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dV_yuhN-mtc
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 10:02pm
"B.O. is no John Kennedy, FDR, MLK...The others were giants." Really, in their lifetimes? To be fair, they really didn't become giants until after their time in office and deaths. Lincoln had little if any real experience, and yet he turned out quite nicely. The reality is we know what we will get with Clinton, We know what we will get with McCain - more war, more division, more of what independent Americans do not want. With Obama we know about as mush as America knew about Lincoln in 1860, not much. Give the new a try once in a while, we complain we want change and progress, we will not get progress going backwards with McCain and Clinton. If Obama fails, in 4 years we can kick him out. With Bush II putting the US at rock-bottom, there is really not much Obama could do to make it worse. If we go with the other two we are assured of spinning our wheels. Change is hard, very few people like change: jobs, houses, lifestyle, etc. But generally once change has begun, it is really hard to stop, that is always going to be scary to those who push the status quo - Clinton and McCain.
Posted by Buckley at 02/18/2008 @ 10:14pm
Posted by MASK 02/18/2008 @ 9:22pm
i'm beginning to wonder if frank and rio are brothers...twins seperated at birth...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 10:32pm
Frank, per no LBJ, JFK - no, Nixon - yes?
Posted by hsuBfools at 02/18/2008 @ 10:44pm
You know, I used to think that posters here had some intelligence. I was warned by friends that the Nation was a left wing rag and that posting here was a waste of time. I'm starting to see that they were right.
I've never encountered such cowardly, inexcusably ignorant people in my life. I think it's time I take my leave. There's no-one here worth my time.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:39pm
frank, you're showing us that you're "right", too.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 10:50pm
RE: Clinton Hits Obama for Borrowing 'Just Words'
Oh, Bubba's micro-management! Ask yourselves, if the guy is in-experienced, how could he not "borrow" others' writings?
Posted by HelenDAO at 02/18/2008 @ 11:00pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:39pm
how can i come to any other conclusion? for YEARS you come here railing against the war, expressing concern for your son...
and now that your son is safe, you will vote for the war candidate if your hillary does not get the nomination? seems my asshole conclusions are nothing more than logical and rational.
ASSHOLE? yes indeed. hypocrisy and lies piss me off and i love my asshole country and i support a candidate i think can win and help it heal and move forward.
and although as a southern white i indeed refraim from lightly bandying about accusations of racism, but my lord, i'm wondering about a lot of mainstream dems. the attacks on obama have become so shrill and unreasonable...
oooh tavis smiley - clinton and obama...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:02pm
this attack on obama is stupid, meaningless, low spirited, and indicative of the character of mrs. clinton.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:05pm
( WATCH ANOTHER NEW VIDEO ON OBAMA MESSAGE SHAM!)NEW VIDEO shows he lifted entire campaign theme!!!
AHH IT'S NOT "JUST WORDS" PLAY OF WORDS.....
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSVsUvqb_Q
Posted by JayATL at 02/18/2008 @ 11:17pm
They will not be afraid to vote for John McCain because if B.O.gets the nod, McCain wins the experience argument, the patriot argument, the hero argument, and he's almost a democrat so he's not hard for a democrat to vote for.
Oh, and Hillary doesn't get creamed on the experience argument against a combat veteran with 25 years service in Congress? Incidentally, how many almost Democrats are anti-choice, in favor of making the Bush tax cuts permanent, favor an extended presence in Iraq with a larger force (incidentally, he called for going after Iraq in December 2001) and seem to be sympathetic about bombing Iran.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 11:27pm
I think it's time I take my leave. There's no-one here worth my time.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:39pm
Leaving again? I seem to remember him saying that he would come back after the March 4 primaries. What a drama-queen!
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm
How dare you accuse me or my son of such a thing. You haven't earned the right.
No one's ever accused his son of anything. It hasn't stopped him from hiding behind his son when responding to an attack on him.
Posted by brunowe at 02/18/2008 @ 11:29pm
Posted by JAYATL 02/18/2008 @ 11:17pm
JKHGUGULGFYOYUTBFTJGRHDTGRHSDVUTEGRDFBNYUTJYFGMKYGJHUNTMG!
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:33pm
Seabiscuit is galloping past his rivals, and in a last ditch attempt to thwart his momentum, the jockey behind him reaches for his lasso...
It will be too late. Hillary can't stop this champion
Posted by civilmass at 02/18/2008 @ 11:39pm
What a drama-queen!
Posted by BRUNOWE 02/18/2008 @ 11:28pm
he's eating it all up. like the homely girl with a chip on her shoulder who just got a boob job and wants to make a big scene.
he gets pissed when anyone brings up the son thing cause he knows its a legit observation. he's almost as granite headed as rio...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:39pm
Posted by CIVILMASS 02/18/2008 @ 11:39pm
one day this will all seem like a bad dream...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/18/2008 @ 11:42pm
JKHGUGULGFYOYUTBFTJGRHDTGRHSDVUTEGRDFBNYUTJYFGMKYGJHUNTMG!
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/18/2008 @ 11:33pm
plagiarizer
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:43pm
ANOTHER NEW VIDEO SURFACES!!! Shows he lifted entire campaign theme!!!
( WATCH ANOTHER NEW VIDEO ON OBAMA MESSAGE SHAM!)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSVsUvqb_Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nRSVsUvqb_Q
AHH IT'S NOT "JUST WORDS" PLAY OF WORDS.....
----------------------------------------------------
Posted by JayATL at 02/18/2008 @ 11:45pm
AHH IT'S NOT "JUST WORDS" PLAY OF WORDS.....
----------------------------------------------------
Posted by JAYATL 02/18/2008 @ 11:45pm
it's voodoo, i tells ya'!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:48pm
This is amature land.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 11:46pm
oh, the irony.................
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:49pm
See ya.
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 11:46pm
be safe, brother.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/18/2008 @ 11:50pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/18/2008 @ 11:50pm
frank's not here man...
damn that man's stubborn! hope he comes back when his blood pressure goes down.
i stayed off his case as long as i could, but when he came out with that "if i don't get my way i'm taking my little red wagon and going to mccain's!!!" crap i couldn't sit around and not respond.
hee hee...he's funny when he gets revved up pissed...i gotta restrain my sadistic side more with him...i know where his buttons are and do indeed get wicked pleasure from watching him go all tasmanian devil...
he'll be back.
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:07am
he'll be back.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:39am
right, frank?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:40am
Coward. Yeah, that's right Brownie, you're a coward. I never had you or Mask or Zero on ignore, ever. I saw every single backstabbing, childish attack on myself when you all didn't think I was looking. It shows your true character and it shows what immature children you really are. I tried to educate here and I hope that some people learned some valuable things about politics. If you really care about the democratic party, you all need to do some reading. A lot of it. That's my final warning.
Actually, the whole "ignore" scam shows that you are, in fact, a liar. It also displays your own immaturity. Further, there isn't anything I wrote that I'm not happy to say to your face. The attacks on you were neither immature or backstabbing. You seem to have this ridiculous idea that people can't comment on the insanity of your posts if you choose not to read those comments.
Posted by brunowe at 02/19/2008 @ 12:42am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 12:40am
franks not here, man...
Posted by BRUNOWE 02/19/2008 @ 12:42am
actually its kinda creepy...and funny at the same time. franks gone to bed pissed...
maybe he's watching right now...say something that will REALLY pis him off and see what happens...
lol
nah...nah...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 12:47am
lol
nah...nah...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 12:47am
Watch it!
I'm taking up the Hillary banner until Frank comes back.
(damn! using capitals feels weird.)
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:11am
Posted by RIO BRAVO 02/19/2008 @ 01:10am |
just don't send the slapahos...
bedtime for bonzo...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 01:12am
oh yeah - sorry...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 01:14am
HONOLULU (KHNL) -- With just days before Hawaii's democratic caucus, campaigns for both presidential candidates made a big push here this weekend. A lively rally for Hillary Clinton drew hundreds to a Honolulu watering hole.
Clinton supporters and undecideds came out for a meet and greet. Even those too young to vote showed up. One of Hillary Clinton's main supporters here in Hawaii says he believes Senator Clinton is the real deal. "I've had the privilege of working on the white house task force on health and I can assure you she knew what she was doing," said Sen. Daniel K. Inouye.
As many fans as Clinton may have around the islands and the U.S., no one can stake claim to the title of her number one fan like her daughter. For the last three days, Chelsea has been island hopping for the "Hawaii for Hillary" campaign.
Chelsea said she had an extraordinary time here in Hawaii. "Meeting people who are supporting my mom meeting, democrats who care so passionately about the issues my mom has worked on her whole life," she said.
She made it a point to reiterate those issues.
"Continue to work on whether it may be affordable housing, affordable quality health care, ending no child left behind or for really moving toward a sustainable energy future for all of us."
The limelight was not only on Hillary Clinton though.
Another state senator said she loves working with Chelsea Clinton.
"I've never seen anyone capture, capture the people of hawaii as she has in the three day she's been here. She never grumbles, she's always smiling, and she's tireless," Sen. Colleen Hanabusa said.
Hanabusa reminds voters: "Go to your caucus sites on tuesday and take as many people as you can fit in your car or on the back of your bicycle.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:16am
Posted by RIO BRAVO 02/19/2008 @ 01:22am
Hillary will do more for the Aboriginal People's of America than any previous occupant of the White House.
Please refrain from referring to the U.S. SENATOR from New York as "Rotten".
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:34am
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:21pm
Frank through all the BS you spew you have yet to answer my question. You say Hillary is going to turn Washington into the times of the first Clinton. That is an ends. Now give me a means. HOW does she plan to do that.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 01:39am
Or is the truth of it that you don't know? That just like what you claim about Obama you are following a cult of personality. A person who is offering a bunch of ends but no means? Please if you are telling the truth prove me wrong. Tell me the means she plans to use to get to her ends.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 01:43am
osted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:29pm
Where are you getting your numbers facts Frank. Last rally Obama had was 17,000 people. One before that filled up a stadium. Hillary couldn't draw more than a couple thousand to her rally that took place around the same time.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 01:47am
Anyone noticed as we get farther and farther along that Frank throws more and more facts to the winds in some weird hope that he is going to manage to brainwash us into believing him.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 01:48am
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 01:39am
"Over the past seven years, big corporations and special interests have been given a free pass to profit, often at the expense of the American worker. As President, Hillary will make it a priority to scale back special benefits and subsidies to these corporations and put those resources to work for our economy again," the pamphlet declares.
It also describes Clinton's plan for creating new jobs through investments in infrastructure projects like roads, bridges and levees and "green-collar" jobs that would help reduce dependence on foreign oil.
The New York senator also details her ideas for improving trade agreements, making college more affordable and expanding family and medical leave programs.
"Hillary's plan to rein in the special interests will take back at least $55 billion per year from drug companies, oil companies and firms that ship jobs overseas and invest those resources to improve the lives of working families," the pamphlet said.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:49am
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 01:47am
disclaimer:
frank has said he's left us (again).
so, i've decided to take up the hillary cause until he comes back.
this is gonna be tough.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:50am
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 01:47am
This is an ELECTION not a rock concert.
Was Obama giving away free HOPE t-shirts?
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 01:51am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 01:49am
Isn't that exactly what Obama said he's going to do in more or less words? When it comes to economy and what not?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 02:04am
Isn't that exactly what Obama said he's going to do in more or less words? When it comes to economy and what not?
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 02:04am
Perhaps, but Hillary's got more experience.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 02:05am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 02:05am
Doesn't McCain have WAY more than her?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 02:06am
Maybe he was just stealing her ideas.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 02:07am
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 02:04am
night, dude.
this pro-hillary business is so draining..............
i'll try again tomorrow...
i sure hope frank comes back tomorrow.
i'm starting to feel like morgan spurlock and it's only been an hour......
draining........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 02:08am
i'm gonna need a good breakfast.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 02:09am
Hahaha night FZ. Take a break we will try again tomorrow. Maybe you will be able to do better than Frank at swaying us.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 02/19/2008 @ 02:11am
Hahaha night FZ. Take a break we will try again tomorrow. Maybe you will be able to do better than Frank at swaying us.
Posted by CCCOMFO1 02/19/2008 @ 02:11am
gonna do my best..............
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 02:14am
Now I'll say good-bye to this site for good. This is amature land. Way to many republicans here trying to come off as concerned democrats. I hope the Nation editors understand this. It's been fun and enlightening but there's just too much ignorance and cowardice on this site. I won't miss it. Now, go ahead and take all the shots you want. See ya.----Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 11:46pm
Hillary wins Texas and Ohio....he'll be back. Bet on it!
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 07:17am
The more I see the more I pray that Hillary is not the party's nominee and this newest charge of plagiarism from a campaign that has borrowed, echoed, Obama's speeches is appalling.
A campaign and woman, god I wish Hillary was a man, she's giving women a bad name, who says just words, cannot and should not be president. It is disingenuous for a politician who lives by words to say "just words." What is diplomacy but "just words? There is no action that is not preceded by words, even if those words are in someone's head, the action is motivated by words. Words are language and humans communicate through language.
Hillary saying "just words" sounds like a woman married to a serial womanizer who lied to a nation when he said, "I did not have sex with that woman." Hillary probably does not believe in words and we already have seen what happens when a president does not take responsibility their words.
If, if Hillary wins she is a seriously flawed candidate and a great deal comes from her desperate desire to win at any cost even supporting her husband's screwing around.
Posted by deborahdi at 02/19/2008 @ 07:46am
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 07:17am
watch out - he was watching you the whole time...he might be watching right now...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 09:55am
Can we stop wasting time on this? I'd like to see the Nation stop posting on this issue, to take the high-road and no longer fuel this fire. So far Barack has taken the high-road, encouraging folks to get back to the issues that matter to people and away from petty party politics. This is exactly the kind of muck he offers us a chance to transcend. So far, Obama won't play, and they look stupid. Let's hope he can stay focused, and their lame attempt at derailing his train should deflate fast.
Posted by roselr at 02/19/2008 @ 10:11am
Posted by ROSELR 02/19/2008 @ 10:11am |
wonder what the next lame attack will be...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 10:13am
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 09:55am
Yeah, I LOVED that part. FRANK never had us on Ignore, he just ignored us.
Seriously though, if Her Majesty wins tonight (or Texas and Ohio in two weeks) watch for FG to come ROARING back, gloating like a sumbitch, and saying "Okay, you numbnuts, I told you. She-Who-Must-Be-Obeyed WILL be obeyed and your mulatto boy is out. Now get onboard and she will be merciful!"
Hillary loses WI and Hawaii...no show. She loses Texas or Ohio...he may truly never come back. Too embarassing to sound like HAPPY praising McCain for the next 8 months!
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:28am
The Clintons are getting desperate and it aint pretty. You wuold think that they learn their lesson about using negative tactics but apparently they havent. Let's recap what they've done.
1. Accuse Obama of Plagiarism (Hillary has Plagiarised)
2. Obama has no substance. Yet Hillary had to ask to cosponor the Patriot Tax that Obama authored with Durbin.
3. Hillary is ready to lead. She is more of a CEO than Obama. Yet the Clinton campaign ran out of money she had to loan herself 5 million dollars. The message has changed several times. They've had to replace people in the campaign. They've gotten beaten from day one in Iowa. So much for ready on day one.
4. They continue to bash Red State Democrats saying that Obama's win is not important because its mostly states that are going to be republican anyway. After a comment like that you would thnk that all Democrats had to do was to win blue states and they would win the election. Not really they need to win some red states. I guess they will worry about that when the time comes.
5.They keep justifying every Obama win by belittling it. Oh he does better with caucaus thats not really important. Its a heavily AA state so thats why he does well implying again not important.
6. Hillary is trying to get Michigan and Florida delegates seated AFTER agreeing to DNC rules that their delegates wont be counted. When Obama said OK they can do a do over caucas in these states. Its back to the old caucas argument again.
Hillary needs to QUIT IT because if she keeps this up and she wins the battle in the primary she is going to lose the war in the General election. Time is running out now is NOT the time to be alienating and dividing states and groups there wont be enough time to unite them before the general election. Because of her actions I think the republicans will get 4 more years.
Carol
Posted by harriscrl3 at 02/19/2008 @ 10:28am
Posted by JOMAMMA 02/19/2008 @ 10:36am
Well, yes of course YOU were.....heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 10:53am
This is amature land
Frank, you illerate! It's spelled a-m-a-t-e-u-r! I've seen you spell it the wrong way before so it obviously isn't just a typo.
MASK FYI, even if Hillary wins in Texas and Ohio, the margin will likely just allow her to draw even in delegates (you reading this Frank?).
Posted by brunowe at 02/19/2008 @ 11:25am
illiterate!
See, that was a genuine typo!
Posted by brunowe at 02/19/2008 @ 11:26am
wonder what the next lame attack will be...
Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/19/2008 @ 10:13am
BARACK OBAMA EATS PORK AND DRINKS
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:40am
HE IS NOT EVEN TRUE TO ISLAM
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:40am
OBAMA'S A PORK EATING INFIDEL
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 11:41am
This should all be grist for the Daily Show or the Colbert Report.
While Obama acknowledges that he did use lines first written by a friend in his recent speeches, he notes, too, that he has written two books by himself, and does much of his own speech writing.
Now Hillary has many fine points, including a wickedly funny sense of self parody - anyone visiting the Clinton Library in Little Rock is drawn to the zone of giggling and outright belly laughter in her video sendups of herself and Bill - but she, herself, used a ghost writer in writing her own book, even if she did do much rewriting of that material.
Let's get a grip on ourselves,call off the dogs, and let's get back to issues and substance.
Posted by leuihgingdak at 02/19/2008 @ 12:05pm
MASK FYI, even if Hillary wins in Texas and Ohio, the margin will likely just allow her to draw even in delegates (you reading this Frank?).----Posted by BRUNOWE 02/19/2008 @ 11:25am
True, I wasn't specific enough. Should have said "win BIG time" in TX and OH. Obviously with proportionality, Obama wins if it's close even if she wins the state.
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 12:16pm
and let's get back to issues and substance.
Posted by LEUIHGINGDAK 02/19/2008 @ 12:05pm
as if..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 12:44pm
CNN.com 19 February 2008
'...While campaigning in Youngstown, Ohio, Monday, Barak Obama said,....
"Speeches don't put food on the table, ..." '
'Don't criticize what you can't understand.' - Robert Allen Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) 'Paredon!' - Ernesto 'El Carnifero' Guevara............................ ..................................... .. 'Lan Astaslem' - T-shirt, protestor at WTC rally
Posted by HonestLiberal at 02/19/2008 @ 12:47pm
"WHERE'S....THE......BEEF????" (Wendy's, circa 1984)
Posted by TransitDave at 02/19/2008 @ 12:55pm
hey, hillary-haters. Relax. If you believe so much in your candidate, than why the reactive bile?
I think this is relevant, though not a gigantic issue, it is worth pointing out. One of Obama's greatest appeals has been his sweeping, inspirational oratory. If he's carbon copying, not just in the body of something he spoke publicly, but as an opening line, directly responding to an opponent's criticism... it's worth mentioning. Maybe Obama should hire Deval's speech writer.
Posted by jin at 02/19/2008 @ 1:08pm
It's also kind of over-blown and self-glorifying to campare whatever paltry speeches you made to get this far to JFK, MLK, FDR, etc. Yeah, who the hell is Deval Patrick anyway? And Barack Obama for that matter?
Posted by jin at 02/19/2008 @ 1:21pm
Posted by FRANKGRITS 02/18/2008 @ 10:21pm
...a whole slew of young people who really don't understand the ramifications of their vote yet.
Nothing like the smug, self-satisfied complacency of entitled paternalism. What you call dividing, I call giving people a choice. There's zero chance I would have voted for Hillary Clinton if she was in McCain's shows at this point, and while I'm not an Obama supporter, per se, I do support his right to cut into the every day ho-hum that is Democratic politics and make her at least work for it, and better yet, bury her. We call that democracy, Frank.
Posted by srjenkins at 02/19/2008 @ 1:36pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 02/19/2008 @ 11:41am
The question we should all be asking ourselves this election: which candidate would you invite home to eat a slab of factory farmed bacon?
Don't fear the pork! We don't live in a desert, so we don't have to compete with pigs for water. Besides, they are a good secondary source of antibiotics.
Posted by srjenkins at 02/19/2008 @ 1:40pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 02/19/2008 @ 1:36pm
hear! hear!
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:04pm
Don't fear the pork!
Posted by SRJENKINS 02/19/2008 @ 1:40pm
well, we know the elected "representatives" don't fear pork.
Posted by frosty zoom at 02/19/2008 @ 2:05pm
hey, hillary-haters. Relax. If you believe so much in your candidate, than why the reactive bile?----Posted by JIN 02/19/2008 @ 1:08pm
Yeah! Good thing you Hillary fans don't spew "reactive bile",huh?
BTW....where IS FRANKGRITS anyway?!?!?....heheh
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 2:15pm
On the other hand, just about the worst speaker, but one of our best leaders, was Harry S Truman.---Posted by MARKCANYON 02/19/2008 @ 1:18pm
Yes, MARK, but unlike you...Harry Truman hated the Nazis.
BTW, it's "William Jennings Bryan"...not "Bryant".
Posted by Mask at 02/19/2008 @ 2:16pm
Why now are people so hung up on speeches and who writes them? The public has known for years that politicians have speechwriters. If this is news to you, where the hell have you been? If Obama's borrowing from other speeches, as have most if not all politicians have done, is puzzling or causes interest, then where the hell have you been? Shit, I knew this and was not surprised by this "revelation". I knew Bill Clinton had a speech writer as have all presidents after a certain year(Maybe Washington through Lincoln wrote their own speeches. I don't know for sure). What is surprising is that Hillary's campaign would be making this an issue. It doesn't concern me one bit. I was more surprised to learn that he had written some of his own speeches. Hell, I thought everyone had a speech writer. Which also makes me wonder who the hell is Bush's speechwriter? He/She sucks doggy balls. Anyway, if you are in the least bit concerned, take a chill pill. As I like to say sometimes, " It ain't even that serious". I would note the person that I got the quote from but I forgot who that was. Guess it's a good thing I'm not running for president.
Posted by k330k at 02/19/2008 @ 2:36pm
Here is Hillary using Barack's "fired up and ready to go" line! [youtube.com]
Posted by Metteyya at 02/19/2008 @ 2:40pm
The Founders did not just declaim the Declaration of Independence, they borrowed money and raised an army and went to war.Posted by MARKCANYON 02/19/2008 @ 1:18pm
I see where you are trying to go with this but I don't agree. How do you think the "founding fathers" got people charged up to fight for their freedom. Speeches, brother, speeches. "Give me liberty or give me death"( Patrick Henry?) All the talking they did in Philadelphia to come to some sort of consensus wasn't "just words". They had to inspire people to , dare I say, hope and fight to make sure their hopes became viable. Hell, this same rhetoric used by the "founding fathers" inspired enslaved persons during the colonial period to hope for, if not seek, freedom(Of course, their hopes were dashed but that's another story for another day). From experience, words have great weight.
Posted by k330k at 02/19/2008 @ 2:45pm
Posted by MASK 02/19/2008 @ 2:15pm
frank? don't you worry, little guy...like a jealous, insecure and wrathful god he lurks unseen and watching, marking down in his little invisible blackberry all transgresions and insults, rapturously awaiting the day of the judgement of the dark queen when he will come down in triumphant fire, spitting lightning bolts out his ass and tropical laser beams from his allseeing, never blinking eyes!
then will you weep and gnash your teeth and whimper at his holy toe jammed perfect feet, grovelling and begging for forgiveness before he stomps you right straight down to the fiery pits of separation from his love!
see - a really am from the south...
but like i said, one way or another he'll be back...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/19/2008 @ 2:56pm
It seems as though Black superdelegates are willing to ignore the wishes of their constituents and vote for Hillary Clinton at the convention. Shame on them. I can just imagine what it's like when the Clinton's have them over to discuss their vote....."Yessuh, massah Bill, we's don't care if our districts vote ninety percent for Obama and only ten percent for Miss Hillary. We's gonna vote at the convention for Miss HIllary. Halleluah."
Is it any wonder that Clinton's Black supporters are over the hill Tom's who would have probably told Martin Luther King to "hush up" and "don't rock the boat."
If Barack Obama has won more delegates in the caucuses and primaries and the Clinton's try to deny him the nomination with their superdelegates this will be far worse than what happened in the 2000 election.
Posted by mjkoch at 02/19/2008 @ 3:00pm