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RedditLast week, the Supreme Court indicated that they will most likely uphold a 2005 Indiana law that requires all voters to produce a state-issued photo ID, such as a driver's license, in order to vote. The Indiana Democratic Party and the ACLU have appealed to the Supreme Court, claiming that the measure is an "unconstitutional burden on the right to vote."
On Wednesday, Justice Anthony Kennedy asked of the case, "you want us to invalidate a statute on the ground that it's a minor inconvenience to a small percentage of voters?"
The problem, however, is that while it may be a small percentage overall, certain groups of voters are disproportionately affected by the law--in particular, African-Americans, Hispanics, the very poor, and students. In Georgia, which has a similar law, a study found that African-Americans were 83% more likely than whites not to have a state-issued ID. Last summer, SAVE (the Student Association for Voter Empowerment), held a hearing in which several college students testified about their difficulties registering to vote. Since their IDs were from out-of-state, they were unable to establish residency in the state where they attended college.
Partisan politics may also be lurking behind Indiana's law. The legislation, which was proposed and signed into law by a Republican-dominated state government, allegedly exists to prevent in-person voter-identification fraud. But such fraud is extremely rare, and has never been documented in Indiana. And the excluded groups of voters tend to vote Democratic.
The court's decision could set a precedent for similar measures in other states. Young people and minorities already face enough barriers to voting--they don't need the Supreme Court to lock in place another.
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See, I don't get this one...
1. The IDs are provided FOR FREE from the States.
2. We "force" people to register to vote, before they can vote. (Even "same day" requires SOME measure of "step" to voting, before you actually vote).
3. People are happy to get free stuff from the Government usually. So why will they be so reticent about a free ID? (If they are legal citizens that is)
Posted by Mask at 01/14/2008 @ 9:40pm
Although I agree that these sorts of barriers are intolerable and disproportionately affect the poor, something must be done to address the "prospect" of voter fraud.
Certainly, the poor who ride the bus or who do not have bank accounts, are less likely to have state issued ID. But I think what the Indiana law attempts to do - and could probably expand upon this effort - is have a way for people to vote "provisionally" and then come in at a later time to certify their vote with proper identification.
I am not sure the Indiana statute gives voters enough time to certify their vote, and that is the main objection I have to the Indiana law.
But I am uncomfortable with "no protection at all" for voter fraud, despite the lack of documented abuse. I can certainly "foresee" an election where voter fraud would indeed be an issue, and where we had wished we had some protection against fraud of this sort.
Posted by Metteyya at 01/14/2008 @ 9:49pm
i can't understand why you guys are freaked out about identity cards.
you've got driver's licences. you've got credit cards. you use the internet.
YOU ARE KNOWN.
just issue a voter photo id to everyone for free. (cost = less than a few days in iraq)
problem solved.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2008 @ 9:51pm
If they can get to the polls to vote...they can get ID. Period...This is a LIB CANARD TO TRY TO STEAL MORE VOTES..
Posted by Frankshitsz at 01/14/2008 @ 10:12pm
Here's an odd coincidence regarding IN's voter ID law. I just got a letter 2 days ago from the Indiana Bureau of Motor Vehicles. According to them, they had sent a previous notice apprising me of this situation. They had not.
It seems they suddenly, after living & working in this state for 12 years, could not verify my Social Security Number as it was recorded at the BMV with the one on file at the SSA. If I don't rectify the situation, then my driver's license (and my ability to vote) will be suspended effective January 31, 2008. My name hasn't changed in over 10 years and I've verified my SSN with numerous employers over the years. So I'm a bit suspicious that suddenly I'm unverified.
Even when it's cheap & easy to get a government issued photo ID, they find ways of keeping you from the polls.
Posted by astrid2x at 01/14/2008 @ 10:20pm
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=frosty%20zoom
you are not well informed on this issue. first this is a state by state issue. in Indiana, which is the case the supremes are deciding, it costs money to buy that ID. that is a poll tax and illegal. not everyone has a drivers license. incidentally a national voting card could likely not be rolled out in time for the next election.
another point is that Indiana law, and all those like it claim to be addressing voter fraud. here the kicker, not a single case of that kind of voter fraud has ever been found. none.and the folks pushing for it are repubs.
so, a bit more complicated than it looks from the outside.
Posted by McQ at 01/14/2008 @ 10:33pm
Posted by MCQ 01/14/2008 @ 10:33pm
quit the 'ignore" crap, brannagan.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2008 @ 10:41pm
*click*
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/14/2008 @ 10:42pm
quit the 'ignore" crap, brannagan.
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/14/2008 @ 10:41pm | ignore this person
I don't know what you are talking about.
Posted by McQ at 01/14/2008 @ 11:01pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/14/2008 @ 9:51pm
For the obvious reason that a national ID is a key component to evolving into a police state. "Papers please" isn't just a joke from Soviet era g-men. It is important for consolidating police powers within the federal government. Not to mention the privacy, security and other issues that come from everyone using this number to issue credit reports, medical records, etc. Making something a monoculture often makes things less secure, more prone for abuse.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/14/2008 @ 11:10pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 01/14/2008 @ 11:10pm
it's just a piece of paper with your picture. THEY know what THEY need to know.
one question: don't you guys have to prove "you are you" when you register to vote? i do. when i do my taxes, they ask me if i want to be on the voter list. fuck yeah! it's my money. and if i say "no", and want to vote later, i have to prove "i am me" at the polling place. how do i do that? i show them my picture i.d. and delivered mail with my address.
THEY know who I am.
anyways,
check out the info at The 2007 International Privacy Ranking [tinyurl.com]
and compare it with this list of nations (from qwiki):
2.3 Nations with ID cards. :2.3.1 Belgium 2.3.2 Colombia 2.3.3 Chile 2.3.4 Croatia 2.3.5 Estonia 2.3.6 Finland 2.3.7 France 2.3.8 Greece 2.3.9 Italy 2.3.10 Israel 2.3.11 Malaysia 2.3.12 Pakistan 2.3.13 Poland 2.3.14 Romania 2.3.15 Singapore 2.3.16 Spain 2.3.17 South Africa 2.3.18 Sweden 2.3.19 Taiwan
you'll see that they also consider "the card" to be a minus. i suppose a simple photo and name card for voting purposes would work, but you are right to not trust the government to "keep it simple" (i.e. non-intrusive), especially in this day of biometrics.
oh well.
HEY! Let's do it like they did in iraq.
purple finger, anyone?
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 12:36am
wait a second.
don't you guys already have social security cards? name + number.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 01:06am
How do the poor cash or pick up welfare checks? How do the poor get electric hook up, gas hook ups, buy liquor, buy cigarettes, get free health care at the ER....and kid on the street can tell you where you can get a fake ID...
My thoughts exactly. If you've managed to navigate the Federal welfare system and managed to cash their checks somehow, you have had to provide your identity somewhere along the way.
Sorry, but, No ID = No vote. It's just common sense.
Posted by Sliver at 01/15/2008 @ 07:09am
This is so not an issue to worry about...
SI?
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 01:08am |
1: would you cons please list the massive voter fraud that these laws are meant to stop.
2: would you cons back up your beliefs that it is people only welfare that are hurt by this law, not the working poor, or elderly poor.
3: Election fraud by fixed voting machine is a far more insidious problem, we have seen this already. Why didn't the repubs get concerned over that?
4: Is this more pants pooping fear of the non-threat?
5: If an area actually has a voter fraud issue, then deal with it by asking for ID's in that area. If their is no wide spread fraud, why do you cons want more guvt regulation that involves paying money to the guvt?
Posted by crabwalk at 01/15/2008 @ 07:36am
I take an asprin a day to help prevent heart problems---Have I shown any evidence of heart problems --no----is it prudent to still take the asprin because of the possibility of heart problems in the future---yes
Get an ID---This nation should not give up its common sense in the name of liberalism.
Posted by Len Mosse at 01/15/2008 @ 07:46am
: Election fraud by fixed voting machine is a far more insidious problem, we have seen this already. Why didn't the repubs get concerned over that?
Do you mean by fixed voting machines, touch screen????--Do you think that you might need to document this--------there is nothing more than urban legends to support this argument.
Posted by Len Mosse at 01/15/2008 @ 07:49am
I can walk to the place that I have to vote. I have to show ID and they match my name with the voting registration. I use a paper voting ballot. Why is this not universal at this point, and what is so sinister about proposing it?
Posted by Sliver at 01/15/2008 @ 08:13am
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 01:08am | ignore this person
what a nasty post. you are a misanthrope. the issue is that buying an ID to vote is a poll tax.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 08:52am
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 01:12am | ignore this person
I did not know that someone would find this objectionable. it happens when you drag the line into the comment field.
don't like it? tough.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 08:54am
How about this: we issue new SS cards to everyone that have photos on them? I think just about everyone has a SS card, so let's add your photo to them and the problem is solved.
Or if you don't like that one, I would gladly allow my taxes to go towards providing FREE state ID cards for those who don't already have driver's licenses. How would that be a burden to anyone?
As far as the fraud issue goes, I've heard for years about how dead people have a habit of voting in Chicago elections. In fact there's pretty good evidence the entire state of Illinois was stolen for JFK in 1960--which changed the outcome of a presidential election.
If history is a guide it seems the Dems have the most to loose from averting voter fraud. No wonder the left doth protest too much--hmmm?
Posted by vertigoskippy at 01/15/2008 @ 09:01am
the issue is that buying an ID to vote is a poll tax.
FINALLY!!! a Tax that the Democrats aren't ramming through Congress.
Mark the calendar.
Posted by Sliver at 01/15/2008 @ 09:05am
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=vertigoskippy
in Indiana not a single case of voter fraud has been reported. the ID scheme aims to fix something that is not broken.
the Indiana supreme court has declared the ID law unconstitutional.that's for those who think it's a no brainer to force people to jump through hoops in order to vote.
Sliv, when I vote I do not have to show ID. they compare my signatures.
Maasch your post was not only misanthropic but also quite racist. shame on you.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 09:08am
the issue is that buying an ID to vote is a poll tax.----Posted by MCQ 01/15/2008 @ 08:52am
Uh, the IDs are free...you don't have to buy one.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 09:23am
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Sliver
the problem with the ID law is that it affects some people and not others. it is therefore a burden on those voters.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 09:34am
OK...how does a FREE ID disproportionately burden some people and not others?
Posted by Sliver at 01/15/2008 @ 09:57am
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Sliver
well, if you had to travel to get it, for instance. the Indiana card is not free. many people have a driver's license, they are not affected by the law, but those who don't are unfairly burdened. even you can understand that, can't you?
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 10:00am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 12:36am
Voting is decentralized, so standards vary. I've lived in places that required photo ID and I've lived in others that only require a signature from registered voters.
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 01:06am
People don't have to have a social security card, nor are they required to give it out if they do have one. With a national ID card, that will no longer be true.
Posted by LEN MOSSE 01/15/2008 @ 07:49am
Do a internet search how the security of voting machines, and get back to us. The problem isn't that it has happened before, the problem is that it is trivial to do.
Ron Paul is also against National ID cards. Calling him a liberal?
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 09:23am
If there was a requirement to do ten push-ups in order to vote, that also "free", yet it is still an obstacle to voting.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 10:05am
Posted by MCQ 01/15/2008 @ 10:00am
How can a person "travel to vote"...but be UN-able to "travel to get a free ID"?!?!??!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 10:08am
Posted by SRJENKINS 01/15/2008 @ 10:05am |
Well, again, your analogy doesn't hold, since there is no relationship between physical fitness and voting.
I assume you object to people REGISTERING to vote as well, since to do so places a "block" to their right to just go in and vote?
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 10:10am
As SRJ wrote, you have to show proof of identity to register to vote. Thus, I think protecting against voter fraud would seem to be little more than smokescreen.
Posted by Hman23 at 01/15/2008 @ 10:51am
One can't board a plane without one...
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 10:11am
And one can't register to vote without one . . .
Posted by Hman23 at 01/15/2008 @ 11:14am
Posted by HMAN23 01/15/2008 @ 10:51am
HMAN, if they can show ID to REGISTER to vote...why is it an "undue burden" for them to show ID WHEN they vote???
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 11:58am
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 10:10am
Well, again, your analogy doesn't hold, since there is no relationship between physical fitness and voting.
It has the same relationship that possession of an ID has to voting. One can be a citizen, 18 years old and live in the applicable district for the prescribed time - and still not have state issued identification. To require that someone have one to vote is not different from requiring someone to do 10 push-ups.
I'd only point to the fact that state issued identification has not be available throughout the entire history of our republic, and there are other strategies, such as having two neighbors vouch that would be as secure as requiring an ID - given the prevalance of ID theft, forgeries and so forth.
I assume you object to people REGISTERING to vote as well, since to do so places a "block" to their right to just go in and vote?
Yes. Same day registration should be available.
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 10:11am
Because not everyone wants to live in a police state or asked for their "papers". People exist whether the government knows they exist or not. Care to imagine what the government might do if a government ID was mandatory for functioning in our society and you list your address as the nearest homeless shelter?
Have any memory of history that made certain groups register, and how those registries were used by government to eliminate targetted groups such as Jews, homosexuals and Gypsies? Any reason to believe that similar strategies won't be employed here - just on different groups like the homeless?
Easy for you to think it isn't a problem. I imagine all those Christian, white skinned Germans couldn't understand the problem either.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 12:06pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 01/15/2008 @ 12:06pm | ignore this person
the only ones that stood up to Hitler were some Protestants, Bonhoeffer being the most notable. the catholics, including the pope looked the other way
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 12:12pm
HMAN, if they can show ID to REGISTER to vote...why is it an "undue burden" for them to show ID WHEN they vote???
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 11:58am
funny,
i thought you would be anti-card...........
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 12:29pm
HMAN, if they can show ID to REGISTER to vote...why is it an "undue burden" for them to show ID WHEN they vote???
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 11:58am
you only need register once, unless you move. maybe the state supreme court's opinion is available somewhere.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 12:40pm
It's funny. You say they have to show ID to register so why SHOULD you have to show ID to vote. You're registered, you can't vote if you're not registered. Then all it takes is a comparison of signatures. I'm against anything that gets the government or anyone else for that matter including facebook more into my private life.
I don't really take a stand on this issue, however both sides present good points. Except Jom, who so far has come off more as the typical conservative racist who prattles on about how all the liberals are destroying america because they want to increase the taxes to pay for all those foreigners to live on our land and blah blah blah. If it weren't for all those illegals most of the typical day to day functions of America would not be accomplished. So unless you want to start pushing your children to be taxi drivers when they grow up you might want to stop complaining about all those illegals, before one day they DO decide to go home and this country is crippled because of it.
Considering most illegals who come into this country are not on welfare, do not get food stamps and do no get most any other service from the government because YOU CAN'T IF YOU DON'T HAVE AN SS and you can't get an SS unless you are a citizen. So illegals can't register to vote in the first place. All the myths conservatives throw around about illegals is pretty ridiculous to me. It's one of those words they try to throw out in order to invoke fear. I live in LA I see tons of illegals. Few of them go to the hospital. A trip to the hospital can get you deported. Why you might ask? Well you need to show ID at the hospital generally. If you don't have ID your status in this country comes into question. So no "those damn foreigners" aren't raising your taxes Jom. Tax cuts to the upper 1% of society and huge tax cuts to corporations are raising your taxes Jom.
But I have digressed. Like I said before I am not really for against showing your license but the argument that you need to show ID to vote is both self fulfilling and self defeating. Besides if someone wanted to commit voter fraud showing an ID wouldn't really do much. I can easily get a fake ID so why bother with it? Which still can be argued both ways. If it matter so little why not make them do it? Or if it matters so little why make one more complication?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 1:01pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:01pm
hey,
do the purple finger thing.
make it a holiday and call it something cheesy like "Purple Pulse Day".
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 1:07pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 1:07pm
Haha I wonder what might have happened to those fingers had they told America no we don't want to vote in a staged election.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 1:11pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 12:29pm |
No, not a paranoid libertarian. We (90% of adults) HAVE an ID, usually driver's license. And are required to present it when we buy alcohol and tobacco (if young looking), for library cards, to write a check, and TO REGISTER TO VOTE.
Oddly, CCOM wants poll workers to be HANDWRITING ANALYSTS ("Then all it takes is a comparison of signatures."--Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:01pm)...rather than risk the "Jim Crow-like" "burden" of asking people to match up their photo ID with the listing on the voter registries.
Want to make it "safer", pass Federal legislation under the Voting Rights Act, that (A) the IDs are free and available from ANY US Post Office or Social Security Office (NOBODY can claim they're not near one of those) and (B) that anybody denied the right to vote illegally (by challenging their ID without evidence), the perputrating poll worker is subject to 5 hard in the slammer.
But all the excuses given for why a FREE ID shown at the time of voting to prove voter registration is "vote suppression" is phoney beyond belief and indictative of an ULTERIOR motive I think.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 1:41pm
BTW, here's how fair I am....
all the "Let's do it like they do in Europe" folks....do European voters have to provide an ID when they vote?
If "no", there's some good evidence you can use against me.
If "yes"...probably not going to get anybody to admit it!...heheh
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 1:43pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:11pm
yeah, they should have vote with there middle finger.
i guess that's what they're trying to do..........
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 1:46pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 1:46pm
Yeah but then they would just use the other one to give us the bird.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 1:53pm
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 1:41pm
paranoia wasn't the instigating factor that i had surmised but free-speechism stuff.
btw statistics, statistics, statistics. 5 star site [nationmaster.com]
don't worry about the tiny! it's the 2007 world privacy report. [tinyurl.com]
excerpt:
UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
No right to privacy in constitution, though search and seizure protections exist in 4th Amendment; case law on government searches has considered new technology
No comprehensive privacy law, many sectoral laws; though tort of privacy
FTC continues to give inadequate attention to privacy issues, though issued self-regulating privacy guidelines on advertising in 2007
State-level data breach legislation has proven to be useful in identifying faults in security
REAL-ID and biometric identification programs continue to spread without adequate oversight, research, and funding structures
Extensive data-sharing programs across federal government and with private sector
Spreading use of CCTV
Congress approved presidential program of spying on foreign communications over U.S. networks, e.g. Gmail, Hotmail, etc.; and now considering immunity for telephone companies, while government claims secrecy, thus barring any legal action
No data retention law as yet, but equally no data protection law
World leading in border surveillance, mandating trans-border data flows
Weak protections of financial and medical privacy; plans spread for 'rings of steel' around cities to monitor movements of individuals
Democratic safeguards tend to be strong but new Congress and political dynamics show that immigration and terrorism continue to leave politicians scared and without principle
Lack of action on data breach legislation on the federal level while REAL-ID is still compelled upon states has shown that states can make informed decisions
Recent news regarding FBI biometric database raises particular concerns as this could lead to the largest database of biometrics around the world that is not protected by strong privacy law
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 1:54pm
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 1:41p
An no mask I wasn't saying that because like I said I neither support or am against it. My point is it just as easy for a poll worker to look at a signature and see that it matches as it is to look at an idea. I'd like to see you're every day average person pick the difference between a fake ID and a real One. Considering they work at bars with people who have seen a million ID's in their day. Where-as someone who has no reference to what the signature of the person who's name they are using looks like means they won't be able to copy it.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 1:55pm
Yeah but then they would just use the other one to give us the bird.
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:53pm
that's what i was saying. and that's what they're doing.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 1:56pm
I can easily get a fake ID
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:01pm
Well, can you at least show the minorities and young people how and where? That ought to solve the problem.
Posted by usc1 at 01/15/2008 @ 1:59pm
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/15/2008 @ 12:49pm
You do everyone a disservice when you pretend to speak for "conservatives". Do us a favor and only speak for yourself.
Also, thank you for illustrating how exactly the national ID card would work to marginalize illegals. This is what registrations and show me your papers does, and demonstrates why people should be concerned about it. One day it's illegals, the next it might just be for Muslims, Temple Mormons or Quakers or social undesirables, like the homeless, mentally insane or what have you.
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 1:41pm
Rather than address the issues raised, you go for name calling, "paranoid libertarians". Oh, and most European systems have compulsory registration. Some have compulsory voting. Some mail voting cards to the voters home address prior to election - meaning, no identification required.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 2:01pm
Rio=Most of our recent presidents have been republicans so the Democrats aren't very good at stealing elections so don't get your knickers in a twist.
Posted by i'm nobody at 01/15/2008 @ 2:21pm
Here in Missouri we had record breaking turn out after the id rule came into being and the Democrats won.
Posted by i'm nobody at 01/15/2008 @ 2:23pm
Anyone can quite easily obtain photo ID in this country. If Blacks and/or students, or some other segment of the population, chooses not to avail themselves of that opportunity, that's their problem. I had ID when I was 16, as did almost every other person I have ever known. Show me someone without ID, and I'll show you someone who has no plans to vote anyway.
Posted by Kevin_OKeeffe at 01/15/2008 @ 2:40pm
Posted by KEVIN_OKEEFFE 01/15/2008 @ 2:40pm
My, aren't we smug in our arrogance?
Posted by Dr Decibels at 01/15/2008 @ 2:46pm
either naive, ignorant or shows duplicity on your part.
Posted by LVLIBERTY1 01/15/2008 @ 2:45pm
Something you know a lot about.
Posted by Dr Decibels at 01/15/2008 @ 2:47pm
I addressed this in my blog post, link here. Chief Justice Roberts and Justice Scalia's comments during oral argument also reflects the right wing power structure's naked desire, reaching its fullest expression through these Reagan-Bush II Supreme Court appointees, to eliminate from public discourse and public life the voices of any individual with the bad judgment to lack middle class income, or its accoutrements of ease and entitlement.
Posted by becktar at 01/15/2008 @ 2:50pm
The Brennan Center for Justice at New York University's School of Law estimates that up to 20 million citizens could be prevented from voting in the November election if the Supreme Court rules in favor of Indiana and other states adopt strict ID requirements.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 2:53pm
http://www.in.gov/judiciary/supreme/
anyone know the case?
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 2:57pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 1:54pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 1:55pm
You guys need to work on one idea. Either IDs are hopeless forgable and useless...or will be used to track us down easily under the coming fascist dictatorship.
BTW, CCOMF...how is that poll workers can be faked out by fake IDs, but will have the forensic scientist's ability to spot a forged signature (given signatures are different EVERY time you make one...look at your returned checks sometimes).
Again, you want HANDWRITING to be the defining identifier...and somehow infallible...but a government-issued PHOTO ID is too prone to counterfeit?!?!?
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 3:14pm
Posted by SRJENKINS 01/15/2008 @ 2:01pm
Do the compulsory registration and compulsory voting nations...require IDs?
Do they send ballots to homes with NO official documentary identification of who will be AT those homes to receive them?
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 3:15pm
'When I die I want to be buried in Chicago so I can continue to be politically active.' -- Mort Sahl
Posted by HonestLiberal at 01/15/2008 @ 3:16pm
Here's the point....the argument is either contradictory or baseless.
1. "They use IDs for registration, they don't need them for the actual voting". Why not? "Because poll takers can match up SIGNATURES easier and more accurately, than they can match up PHOTO IDs issued by the government...code-laminated with laser codes on the back is MUCH more unreliable than sixteen-twenty cursive letters written with a Bic pen!"
2. "IDs are a burden upon people, even if free" Why? "Because they might have to travel halfway across their neighborhood to a post office or SSI office to get one" Whereas the voting booths are "right next door" or "across the street"?!?!?
Again, make enforcement of voting rights stricter than bank robbery (BTW, where IS Empty SPENCE?!?) and eliminate "suppression" and "intimidation".
But none of the arguments fail to deflect a reasonable solution.
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 3:22pm
Posted by HONESTLIBERAL 01/15/2008 @ 3:16pm
Yeah, that Mort.....vicious Limbaugh-type right-winger if I ever heard one, huh?
(/sarcasm off)
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 3:23pm
Posted by MASK 01/15/2008 @ 3:14pm
simple id -- fine.
no sub-cutaneous microchip implants, por favor.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 3:48pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 3:48pm
How about rectal?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 3:54pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 3:48pm
See, there IS some distinction, FZ. Not an IMMEDIATE jump from "a picture and document laminated card" and IMPLANTS!
Posted by Mask at 01/15/2008 @ 3:57pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 4:10pm
First off racism can be subtle without the lets go lynch em attitude, Just like racism can be focused you don't have to hate black people to hate hispanic people but thats not my point. A lot of minimum wage jobs in this country are carried out by illegals. They are the jobs no one else wants to do. Sure theres plenty of janitors who are American. But more who aren't.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 4:18pm
If they taxed corporations what they should be paying you would be paying less in taxes. How is a government supposed to run without taxing people? And it's funny that you argue that point about gas because gas prices are up because of fictitious reasoning while oil companies have been making record profits off their rise. 2 years ago when gas started to hit its peak they were pulling in more money than we had seen yet. So the taxes can't be hurting that much.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 4:37pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 4:52pm
Producers left a long time ago when we gave them the ability to. So thats an old point. It costs them less to go to other countries because it means they don't have to pay their workers well. If you want to drive down your taxes by the way I would suggest starting with military spending. Considering recent tax percentages show that the cost of paying for recent and past wars is 41% of your taxes. Which is more than any one single thing on your taxes.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 4:56pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 4:16pm
Those escaping slaves? Send them back! They are breaking the law.
Oh, and let me shed a tear or two for enormous oil having to squeak by on record profits. It must be terrible to have accountants figure out how to make your profits appear so small, at such a good moment for the industry, that government taxes exceed them.
What is perhaps most amusing is that your lifestyle - the airlines, hotel, restaurant, trucked in food, business deal lifestyle - relies on illegal immigrant labor. Prepared to have your water glass empty, no strawberries on your strawberry shortcake or skipping having your bed made for you?
But that is the short sightedness of American business and worshipping at the temple of the almighty dollar. You don't see beyond the next quarter and you don't even understand the system you are part of - just gimme gimme gimme and let them eat cake, just not your cake.
The liberal is the best friend you ever had. Without liberals, your beliefs about how the world works would usher in another era of civil war, the guillotine or the mass grave - and it still may do so, despite their help.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 5:11pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 5:05pm
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/08s0455.pdf
Est. 2007 Receipts: $2.540 trillion.
http://www.census.gov/compendia/statab/tables/08s0459.pdf
Selected 2007 Est. Federal Outlays: $571.9 billion in military. $239.2 billion in debt expense. $811.1 billion/$2.540 trillion = ~32%.
all know that 80% of all spending is entitlements and 20% other...the exact reverse of the 50s..
Is this the new math? Or does the military or debt expense count as an entitlement program these days?
...is frighteningly simple and efficient, fair and revenue neutral in the beginning...
Well, you got one adjective right, at any rate.
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 5:22pm
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=srjenkins
the wars are off budget, a little sleight of hand.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 5:27pm
I'm just going to skip the rest of the posts cause I have to book...
If you live in a rural area, getting a government issued photo ID might mean going to a specific office in the county seat and said office may only be open from 9-5 and closed on the lunch hour. If you're poor or elderly with little or no access to mass transit, traveling those 50-100 miles might not be so frickin' easy as some of you think.
I've voted for 25+ years and have never had to show a photo ID when I registerd to vote. I fill out a form, sign the damned thing and they check my signature when I go to vote. I live in a large state, so let's not argue that 90% of the populace is already used to presenting their ID's when they vote.
Where the hell are the paleoconservatives, or the people who claim to be "real" conservatives!!!! A national ID, or anything that went beyond the Social Security Card or the Drivers Liscence has traditionally driven the right-wing nuts. And where the right legitimately point to Stalin's Soviet Union, the left pointed to Nazi Germany and Apartied South Africa to argue against the slippery slope of national IDs or papers, social democratic Europe or not. I guess anti-immigrant hysteria, racism and sheer political opportunism trumps historical memory and principles.
This is a discriminatory, wasteful "fix" to a non-problem that is merely bringing out the inner racist and arrogant asshole in too many smug people. To hell with Voter IDs and any other state or national ID system.
Christ, how many of us were born when the damn Jim Crow laws were still on the books!
Posted by cka2nd at 01/15/2008 @ 5:28pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 5:40pm
Even if you eliminate all military personnel outlays ($128.8 billion), you are still left with ~27% ($682.3 billion / $2.540 trillion).
You can get the earlier data here, but I won't bother with an analysis since your original comment is still out to lunch.
http://www.census.gov/prod/www/abs/statab1951-1994.htm
Although, I will make one observation, notice how after World War II how much money suddenly is spent on the military? In your analysis, are you figuring how much of the U.S. debt is based on military deficit spending? Factor THAT into your analysis and get back to me.
http://www2.census.gov/prod2/statcomp/documents/1951-04.pdf
Posted by srjenkins at 01/15/2008 @ 6:18pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 5:59pm
Actually that arguement is self defeating because most of the working class is made up of democrats. So all your amazing businesses and great inventions and weapons would never see the light of day of it wasn't for that liberal scum.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 6:34pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 6:51pm
Ever tried to make a product with only 40% of the workforce? Also on top of that I love that you try to play it like everything good is this country is only made by republicans.
This is why I don't claim party lines because it makes sheep who spout the rhetoric of their party without ever stopping to think whether it makes sense. Yeah every single business in the United States is owned and operated by Republicans that makes perfect sense. I'd like a percentage on scientists, work force, Business owners etc..
This country doesn't function without either side of the coin. No matter how much you try to damn liberals and no matter how much liberals try to damn all conservatives this country would fall into disrepair without both and a healthy dose of independents. We just need to figure out what ratio is best because no one is truly liberal or conservative. For instance conservatives ARE lobbying for IDs for voting but in tradition conservatives should be against any government interference in normal every day life. Liberals should be FOR IDs when you think about it because liberals are generally FOR government regulation.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 7:23pm
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 6:55pm |
Actually there was a case not long ago of an immigrant who wasn't legal serving in the military here. they were actually debating about whether to give him his citizenship in America even though he had defended this country.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 7:25pm
you CANNOT deport 12 or 15 MILLION people. it would take over 200,000 bus trips. Maasch has flipped his lid.
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 8:10pm
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Cccomfo1
was that the one they gave citizenship to posthumously?
Posted by McQ at 01/15/2008 @ 8:12pm
I think we are paying for the fact that we pretty much financially shafted mexico and left it dirt poor in the first place.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 10:43pm
work out a formula whereby Mexico pays the US for the trouble of having 10-12% of it population here and give us enough crude oil to accomodate that population size on a daily basis...I wouldn't charge Mexico a fee for all the dollars heading down there on pay day.
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 8:42pm
or maybe the mexicans will sell their oil to the chinese instead.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 11:00pm
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 3:54pm
that's a crappy idea.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 11:03pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 11:03pm
Damn...
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 11:09pm
I think we are paying for the fact that we pretty much financially shafted mexico and left it dirt poor in the first place.
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 10:43pm
yep. starting in about 1848. and then supporting the one-party corruption of el PRI for 73 years.
and then NAFTA.
and then the election of 2006.
ˇel pueblo unido, jamás será vencido!
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/15/2008 @ 11:09pm
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/15/2008 @ 11:09pm
Gotta love karma. America had complete disregard for Mexico and destroyed their economy and left most of it's population in the gutter. Now we are getting stuck with it's people. I don't think we have much right to complain.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 11:14pm
But then again America doesn't like to practice accountability for it's actions. We do what we want and everyone else can go suck and egg if they think we will take the repercussions.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/15/2008 @ 11:15pm
But then again America doesn't like to practice accountability for it's actions. We do what we want and everyone else can go suck and egg if they think we will take the repercussions.
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/15/2008 @ 11:15pm
hey, america's a great place. don't confuse the leaderhood with the brother'n'sisterhood.
the hardwood forests of appalachia*..................
the everglades**..................
1/2 the great lakes***.................
and mostly its rather rambunctious populace****...............
after all, what is a country?
rich people either sit a table, negotiate, and then draw lines on other people's land OR they fight each other (from the director's chair, of course) on the battlefield AND THEN reap'n'rape their newfound playgrounds,
all the while telling the (mostly poor) residents of said demarcations that "the flag" is sacred,
and must be fought and died for.
pretty cynical, huh? anyways, like i said, as far as places to live, america ain't bad.
*soon to be invaded by the Emerald ash borer [en.wikipedia.org] from china which is gonna gobble up all them ash trees. no more louisville slugger. "free trade"
**already invaded by the Burmese python [en.wikipedia.org]. they'll soon be the apex predators.
***and please don't forget the ever hungry and soon to arrive asian carp [epa.gov]
****hi guys.
looks as though your being invaded by china from within. their plan is too fill you (and us) up with invasive species until our economy collapses and then they'll invade!
plus, it'll look just like home.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/16/2008 @ 12:41am
Oh no I like america like the real america meaning the people and stuff just not the government.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/16/2008 @ 01:28am
Posted by CCCOMFO1 01/16/2008 @ 01:28am
yeah.
and bebop, too.
and gumbo.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/16/2008 @ 01:45am
Posted by FROSTY ZOOM 01/16/2008 @ 01:45am
I do love me some gumbo.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 01/16/2008 @ 09:26am
As far as any illegal in the US military and he serves? He is an American. Period. and he is immediately legal, IMO.
Posted by JOMAMMA 01/15/2008 @ 8:37pm
that's a dangerous offer, Jm.
Posted by frosty zoom at 01/16/2008 @ 09:33am
Tuesday, October 30, 2007 - Three plead guilty in fake voter scheme -- By Keith Ervin -- Seattle Times staff reporter
Three of seven defendants in the biggest voter-registration fraud scheme in Washington history have pleaded guilty and one has been sentenced, prosecutors said Monday.
The defendants were all temporary employees of ACORN, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, when they allegedly filled out and submitted more than 1,800 fictitious voter-registration cards during a 2006 registration drive in King and Pierce counties.
No votes were cast in the names of the phony voters. Prosecutors said the defendants committed fraud in order to keep their jobs without actually registering voters.
King County election workers brought the fraud to the attention of prosecutors last October, after noticing that signatures on many registration forms looked like they had been written by the same person.
Ryan Olson, 28, of Needles, Calif., was the first to be sentenced. He pleaded guilty Thursday in King County Superior Court to two counts of providing false information on a voter-registration application, a felony. Court Commissioner Kenneth Comstock sentenced him to 30 days in jail or in electronic home detention, the sentence recommended by prosecutors, said Dan Donohoe, spokesman for the King County Prosecutor's Office.
Tina Johnson, 24, of Tacoma, and Jayson Woods, 20, of Elkridge, Md., also have pleaded guilty to eight counts each of registration fraud. Donohoe said prosecutors have recommended 120 days of jail for each of them using the same formula applied to Olson: 15 days for each count.
Brianna Debwa, 35, of Tacoma; Robert Greene, 56, of Tacoma; and Clifton Mitchell, 45, of Lakewood, Pierce County, have pleaded not guilty and are scheduled to appear in court in November. Kendra Thill, 19, no known address, was charged with voter fraud and is wanted for failure to appear in court.
'Don't criticize what you can't understand.' - Robert Allen Zimmerman (Bob Dylan) 'Paredon!' - Ernesto 'El Carnifero' Guevara............................ ..................................... .. 'Lan Astaslem' - T-shirt, protestor at WTC rally
Posted by HonestLiberal at 01/16/2008 @ 09:54am
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/action/ignore.mhtml?who=Mask
get someone to imitate your signature. you will have no trouble spotting the fake. signatures of an adult tend to be remarkably alike. that is what graphology is based on. this has been accepted by courts for a long time.
Posted by McQ at 01/16/2008 @ 09:54am
"Young people and minorities already face enough barriers to voting," says the reporter.
Like what? How is their voting experience possibly different from anyone else's? Can you support that statement, that canard, with an example, perhaps?
Posted by shocker at 01/17/2008 @ 9:04pm
Hey Gang,
Neither time nor intestinal fortitude permits me to review all the ignorance (in its literal, not ad hominem sense), denial and, yes, racism, nativism and bigotry on exhibit above - the first dozen were enough for me - I suppose I thought that folks who were well-informed enough to read the hard truth in a pub like the Nation would be equally well rounded in their general knowledge as well - apparently not
Poll taxes have been around forever - the Romans record variations of the technique, even as a Republic (though Rome's empire phase looks a lot like America since the mid-70s) - but, a "tax" can be imposed by myriad means - in the case of Indiana, the means may be found in the seemingly unnecessary complexity by which the "unpapered" voter must remedy her/his sin (I leave the inability of the Indiana Attorney General to name a SINGLE instance of said "crime" being committed in his state for another time)
The poor wretches who are most affected by Indiana's attempt to prevent a flood of alleged "voter fraud" tend to be poor, autoless (hence having scant need for a "driver's" license), and thus find it difficult to repair to their county seat's courthouse (or equally inconvenient locale)WITH THE CORRECT PAPERWORK IN HAND (birth certificate, naturalization certificate, etc.) - if you don't have the right stuff, you get to go back home and do it all over
For as many as 7 out of 10, the game won't be worth the candle (something the GOP-dominated Indiana legislature and governor are counting on, I would imagine) - estimates of upwards of 200,000 may fail to meet this requirement - x70%= 140,000 wannabe voters knocked out of the box... for nothing more one side's (in this case, Republicans) zeal to win any way they can - not a bad return for a few hours' speeches pandering to the ginned up "problem" of illegal aliens and "defending" 'Mercun democracy, eh? As you're reading the Nation, you must know by now that repealing NAFTA and forcing Diebold, et al, to reveal their source code would deal with the real crimes here.
There is, in fact, no reason why one could not produce current rent, mortgage or utility receipts as proof of residence - you might also ask why the Hoosier State disallows the required proof to be submitted LOCALLY (in one's hometown) as opposed to trekking to a possibly quite distant county seat - or, why can't one use a VA or Medicare health I.D., company I.D., etc, any number of which tend to come replete with a photo of the subscriber, worker, etc.
While the folks who happily brought you Florida 2000, Georgia 2002, Ohio 2004, and over a dozen states in 2006 (bet you thought the Dems acually won that one, didn't you?) will employ their most persuasive sophistry in detailing the failing of all these previously oft-used and never discredited forms of I.D.(let alone prosecuted, except for an infinitesimal few dividing their time between two states)
Further, understand that - regardless of the perpetrator - anytime someone tries to "tidy up" that admittedly messy process known as democracy, an ulterior motive is afoot
While you're at it, you all might try to to get over your Dem/Repub, Liberal/Conservative, Christian/Islam/Humanist, black/white/brown, American exceptionalism thingies (it can, and most certainly does, happen here) - all of these faux paradigms and tropes play holy hell with your critical faculties - the truth is, they are coming for ALL of us - it's just a whole lot easier on them if they can keep us distracted and divided by inconsequentials (can you say Britney, or lead paint in the toys from the great Red Satin?) while they take us over one group at a time - just thought you'd like to know
There is way more going on here than the Hoosier State's "inconveniencing" (as Justice Kennedy phrased it) a very few voters - when it comes to vote rigging by a DISTINCT minority (unless all those polls are wrong too), any diminution of your opponent is worth it - intensify that with the fanatic certitude of the Neocon, "whatever it takes," strain of republicanism bent on gaining, and keeping, a firm grip on the one ring that rules them all, and we may well see democracy flower in Baghdad before it reappears on the other side of America's impending Dark Age
NOTE: lest this all seem a bit too conspiratorial, paranoid, and/or left-of-center for you, know that all signs point to the DNC/DLC learning fast from their Neocon cousins - all they need add is the requisite dash of thuggery - Hitler was right: sans a few brownshirts hanging about, the people will never know what you want them to do - we may be fortunate indeed that, so far, the Dems appear to be as queasy about committing bad acts as they are about committing good ones in Congress
So what's at stake? everything. That's what walking back this apparently insignificant cat brings one to.
I wish us all luck - from the look of the first postings above (in this not-for-dummies publication) we'd all better kick our facts-gathering skillset up a few notches (BTW, I am just a citizen, like you)
Please know that none of my comments here are personal - I'm sure I'd probably enjoy pushing back a brewski or two with everyone here
For more on all this:
CON VOTE THEFT-VOTER I.D. Supremes seek solution to a chimera crime - Toobin 01-14-08
http://www.newyorker.com/talk/2008/01/14/080114ta_talk_toobin
PRO VOTE THEFT how can anyone object to VOTER I.D. - John Fund 01--09-08
http://www.opinionjournal.com/diary/?id=110011102
Take care of yourselves and always question authority.
You betray humanity when you don't.
Posted by orbizen at 01/19/2008 @ 5:03pm