Mr. Reid, Meet Mr. Godwin

Oy, this is frustrating.

Last week, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid gave an extraordinary speech to open the Renewable Energy World Conference in Las Vegas. He talked up the opportunities of a green economy, laid out concrete policies for getting there, and blasted the coal industry for standing in the way.

Unfortunately, just before the speech he gave an interview to the Las Vegas Sun in which he accused the coal industry of using "the old Hitler lie: when you say things long enough people start believing them."

Oops! A Hitler comparison. There's the headline. There's the story. Everything else gets washed away. And sure enough, his staffers went into full scramble and there he is today in the Las Vegas Review-Journal, apologizing:

"I never said they were as bad as Hitler," the senator said in an interview last week. "I said what they're doing is creating the big lie that coal is clean, and that's not true. That (tactic) goes back to the Nazi era, and I'm not saying they're following anything to do with the Nazis, but that's where it started."

For the record, the "Big Lie" notion started out in Hitler's Mein Kampf (he accused the Jews of it), was later given a slightly different spin by Joseph Goebbels, and turned up several times in George Orwell's 1984. I believe Lenin also gave it his own spin. By now it's fairly well known and accepted by social scientists that something repeated often enough -- even if some of the repetition is done in the course of refutation -- will come to be believed by the public.

In fact, it's so well known that if I were a politician referring to the Big Lie theory, I wouldn't bring Hitler into it at all. I advise Mr. Reid to adopt that same strategy from now on.

Anyway, here's a longer section from Reid's speech (PDF), in which he beats coal about the head and shoulders:

And many thousands of miles from far away China, yes here in Nevada, the Ely Energy Center coal project is over budget and experts say it will wind up costing well over $4 billion -- if the power company even builds it at all.

Once that massive construction bill is paid, the plant would cough and sputter out dirty power that will not only pollute the earth, but cost consumers 12 or 13 cents per kilowatt-hour. More -- much more -- than they are paying now.

And that's not all. On top of the high price of coal power, studies show that there are hidden costs of $30 per megawatt hour or more -- like respiratory illness, radiation, and hazardous waste.

A UNLV study found that solar, wind, geothermal and biomass projects would create more than $20 billion in business for Nevada over the next 25 years.

Each new megawatt of geothermal power creates up to ten new jobs.

Each new megawatt of solar-thermal and wind power create at least 6 new jobs.

If just half of Nevada's potential clean energy resources were developed, 22,000 new jobs in the next decade would be created.

Does coal compare? Not even close.

The $30 per megawatt hour of hidden environmental and health costs is just the tip of the dirty iceberg.

Fossil fuels are contributing to global warming. We're experiencing severe and unpredictable weather, our ice caps are melting at a record pace, and as we are seeing in Lake Mead, our water sources are in danger all over America.

Big energy companies see these warning signs as clearly as we, but their solution -- build more coal plants.

If the current proposals for new Western coal plants are built, they would consume Page 9 of 12 114 million gallons of water per day.

That's enough water to meet the needs of 591,000 homes.

The only type of power that uses more water than coal is nuclear.

What is the daily discharge from a coal fired plant? It is waste, contaminated with unsafe levels of arsenic, lead and other toxins -- other poisons.

This foul discharge is in our lakes, streams and water tables. This is the water we drink.

This Nevada coal plan is just one example. The damage caused by fossil fuels, of course, is not limited to Nevada or the West.

Our country burns 1 billion tons of coal every year. That produces 2 billion tons of carbon dioxide emissions.

Coal plants release sixty varieties of hazardous air pollutants, among them lead, chromium, arsenic and mercury.

Is it any wonder that tens of millions of Americans live in areas that fail to meet the EPA's air quality standards?

Is it any wonder that hundreds of thousands of Americans every year suffer from asthma attacks, respiratory problems and heart attacks, all from the dirty air caused by coal plants?

Is today -- is tomorrow -- the time to invest in new coal for electricity plants -- the answer is a resounding no.

We've all seen the advertising campaigns for a mythological substance called "clean coal." We know there's no such thing. There is no clean coal, only cleaner coal. Less dirty coal.

In Congress for more than a quarter of a century, I have supported research for a cleaner coal. After billions of our taxpayer dollars -- limited progress has been Page 10 of 12 made.

I will continue my support -- but if anything good comes from this, it will be many tomorrows from this February day.

Vice President Gore said that -- "We ... need a moratorium on the construction of any new generating facility that burns coal without the capacity to safely trap and store carbon dioxide."

That means for now, no new coal plants. Let us -- in Nevada -- follow the admonition of the Nobel and Oscar-winning Vice President.

Comments (38)

1. That "Godwin's Law"...it is a bitch. (To paraphrase Pacino in "The Devil's Advocate).

   Really shows a lack of thought and a desire to paint your opponents as THE worst of humanity...and ends up making YOU (in this case Reid) look like the idiot.

   Gradually, like calling somebody a "Commie" became a self-parody after the 60s and 70s....calling somebody a "Nazi", "fascist", or "Hitler-like" is becoming one too.

   Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 10:19am

2. "but cost consumers 12 or 13 cents per kilowatt-hour."

   wow. i pay 5¢.

   friggin' nazis..........

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 10:54am

3. "114 million gallons of water per day"

   paper mills use about 20 million gallons of water a day.

   plus, they heat the water.

   all that for pretty wrappers...............

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 10:59am

4. What is the daily discharge from a coal fired plant? It is waste, contaminated with unsafe levels of arsenic, lead and other toxins -- other poisons.

   This foul discharge is in our lakes, streams and water tables. This is the water we drink.

   this is the water we are made from

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:00am

5. wow.

   harry reid actually has a brain.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:01am

6. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 11:25am

   I figured we'd see some MAJOR "back-pedalling", Darin. When you inadvertantly started comparing those "tree hugger"-types and their "religion" with your compatriots on the Religious Right side.

   Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 11:51am

7. I very much believe that environmentalism is a religion like my compatriots on the Religious Right and I think that is a very good thing.----Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 12:13pm

   "a good thing"?!!??!?! But you said it was being used to "fake a crises"? Is "faking a crises" a good thing?!??!?!

   "If you were going to design a fake crisis to lure disaffected losers into worshiping you, what could possible be a better hook than telling them they have the opportunity to save the world?"-----Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/25/2008 @ 5:20pm

   Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 12:32pm

8. Why is there still so much resistance to nuclear energy? Is it just because Bush can't pronounce it correctly?

   Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 11:33am

   care for a plutonium sandwich?

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 12:39pm

9. If I try to scare you with my stick, and fail, I can't persuade you.

   Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 12:56pm

   so you admit iraq hasn't helped fight terrorism?

   btw i love carrots.

   Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 1:18pm

10. Mask, I'm not sure if you are taking my words out of context to bait me because you're bored or if you are serious. The "fake a crisis" line related to some hypothetical guy trying to start a cult. That is the part i'm backing off of.----Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 12:56pm

    Or that the imminent overthrow of the Romans and Sanhedrin will come in an "Apocalypse"?

    I see the problem that might produce.

    as for "The scientific task of proving causation of man-made global warming is next to impossible."....no, it's not "impossible".

    Nobody, even the GW deniers, can claim that if we as humans pumped trillions and trillions of tons of CO2 into the Earth's atmosphere, than a "Venus" effect wouldn't result and the greenhouse gases would create a spike in surface temperatures.

    The counter claim isn't that it's "impossible", but that the amounts being produced by Man are "insignificant" or "not important"...and that there is no warming of the planet. Not that it CANNOT BE that we can't effect the climate.

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 2:50pm

11. Here's a novel idea. why don't we let the people of Nevada decide instead of Washington like the Constitution says?----Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/26/2008 @ 2:48pm

    Or they could elect someone to REPRESENT THEM in Washington who represents the majority view of Nevadans to the Federal Government (like the Constitution says)?

    Hmmmm?....how would that work, say in the "upper house" of some "Congress" of the state representatives?!?!?!

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 2:51pm

12. The Big Lie Lie...or Rather Misunderstanding

    actually hitler's "big lie" in mein kampf was in regard to the jews...

    The foremost connoisseurs of this truth regarding the possibilities in the use of falsehood and slander have always been the Jews; for after all, their whole existence is based on one single great lie, to wit, that they are a religious community while actually they are a race-and what a race ! One of the greatest minds of humanity has nailed them forever as such in an eternally correct phrase of fundamental truth: he called them 'the great masters of the lie.' And anyone who does not recognize this or does not want to believe it will never in this world be able to help the truth to victory.

    goebbels then used it to describe the ENGLISH...

    That is of course rather painful for those involved. One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

    but the quote concerning hitler's penchant for lying actually came from our shrinks in the OSS when they profiled him...

    His primary rules were: never allow the public to cool off; never admit a fault or wrong; never concede that there may be some good in your enemy; never leave room for alternatives; never accept blame; concentrate on one enemy at a time and blame him for everything that goes wrong; people will believe a big lie sooner than a little one; and if you repeat it frequently enough people will sooner or later believe it.

    so really reid was, whether he knew it or not, reffing the psychological profile if mr. hitler...

    thats been today's history lesson. keep reading that history folks...you might be seeing it again! and again and again and again....especially if you don't know what yer talking about!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 2:54pm

13. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/26/2008 @ 3:14pm

    So a US Senator representing his state, can promote an agenda for his constituents for redress by the Federal Government!?!?!?!?!

    What do the people of Nevada send Reid to the Senate for?...just to sign off on military appropriations and support whatever the Executive Branch wants?

    (Mind you, that's usually what he's doing...speaking civics here though)

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 3:26pm

14. Correct...

    "So a US Senator representing his state, can NOT promote an agenda for his constituents for redress by the Federal Government!?!?!?!?!

    Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 3:26pm

    (obviously)

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 3:26pm

15. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 11:25am | ignore this person

    not every set of beliefs is a "religion". science contradicts religion in certain areas and does so because physical evidence suggests these contradictions. in that when folks get afraid of death and get freaked out by the sometimes brutal nature of this reality called the world and life, they often become massively suceptible to sweet sounding bullshit - usually in the form of religion.

    that said, i am religious, but i do not personally respect most people's religious belifs because i don't think they are sincere, or because they have taken refuge in literalist poppycock to sheild themselves from ugly realities and thereby cause great harm as a result of their willful ignorance and cowardice. furthermore the ultimately impossible task of maintaining medievalist interpretations of scripture in the face of all physical evidence (not to mention my derision and disgust and the same from others like me who fear not reality) enfuriates and retrenches the fanatical literalist mindset further, energizing them to do things like push junk creation "science" onto our kids, indoctrinating them into such shared cowardly medievalist delusions and making our country stupid and the laughing stock of the developed world.

    if, in the abrahamic tradition man is made in the image of god and is therefore a reflection of god, and god has the ability to abrogate himself whenever he wants, then might man's search for truth mirror the mind of god, abrogating silly magical thinking and downright BS enscriptured?

    if an atheist lives a self sacrificing, christlike life, might he have "accepted jesus as his personal savior" in his heart in a much more meaningful way than simply mouthing those magical formula-like words?

    if religion is doomed to be thought of in terms of the intellectually lowest common denominator, like concrete objective stage thinking fundyvangelists...IT DESERVES TO BE RIDICULED. ACT/SPEAK IN RIDICULOUS WAYS - RIDICULE A LOGICAL AND DESERVED RESULT!

    that said, the great silent majority of religious americans have a moral and civic duty to stand up to these demiurge worshipping lackwits and ignoramuses without fear and without fear of hurting their feelings nor insulting them. people to easily insulted have too much pride, and pride, always a bad thing, is especially repugnant when it is pride in ignorance, intolerance, and bassackwardness.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 3:46pm

16. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 4:43pm | ignore this person

    i love it lots. "tough love"...lol...

    the ultimate kindness of cruelty...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 4:51pm

17. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/26/2008 @ 3:43pm

    Well, first....so discussing opportunities from a "green economy" by a US Senator falls outside the purview of the "Commerce Clause"?....commerce and economics mutually exclusive?

    Second, what do you think the "Democratic Party of the 50s and 60s" would say about that theory?

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 4:55pm

18. Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/26/2008 @ 4:51pm

    thank you sir! may i have another?!

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 4:55pm

19. Uh, MARYBRET....(tap shoulder)

    Posted by MASK 02/26/2008 @ 2:50pm????

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 4:56pm

20. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 4:43pm |

    darin. i like you, but you have to understand something about me...

    years of teaching have...

    a) thickened my skin to the point where its really hard to insult me...

    b) disgusted me with others' thin skinned aversion to insult...

    c) engendered a deep disgust with bullshit...and...

    d) engendered a similar disgust with willful ignorance, especially when in our society there exist countless opportunities to CHOOSE to not be ignorant...

    education is an inherently enlightening AND humiliating experience. half the "problem" we have in education in this country lies precisely in the concept (admittedly foisted upon us by the more liberal elements of the educational sacred cow college) that education is something to be imparted by someone else. quite the opposite - meaningful education is something to be SIEZED BY THE INDIVIDUAL WHO DESIRES IT.

    by putting all the responsibility of an individual's education on extrinsic factors education is inherently cheapened and sullied by another sweet sounding lie - that in terms of human development onlt INPUT can be guaranteed - not OUTCOME.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 5:10pm

21. by putting all the responsibility of an individual's education on extrinsic factors education is inherently cheapened and sullied by another sweet sounding lie - that in terms of human development onlt INPUT can be guaranteed - not OUTCOME.

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/26/2008 @ 5:10pm

    dammit - distracted...the obverse...the lie is that we can guarantee outcomes...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 5:12pm

22. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 6:28pm

    i taught secondary and have returned to school to change career. i have taught all percentiles in a wide variety situations.

    my criticisms are not of "organized religion" but rather of those varieties of the phenomenon which encourage exclusivity and ignorance, as well as those which consistantly harbor hypocrites and false, self serving gurus.

    one-third of Americans who cannot think in the abstract which still leaves 2/3 who can. furthermore if the 1/3 were followers of faiths which do not encourage ignorance and bigotry...and since the majority of the clergy of such faiths are educated and should be capable of such intellectual activity...

    These people's parents given them a tool for dealing with uncertainty-- faith. I don't think you fully appreciate how scary life can be for these people without their faith. For you it's mearly a question of contemplating reality because you have faith that your intellect can get you through. The people I'm talking about don't have that luxury not should they because they are not as bright as you.

    i have little faith in my intellect making me feel good about the scary aspects of life - like i said, i am a religious person. but that does not mean i completely escew my intellect nor close my eyes, stop my ears and say "nananananana - i'm not listening" when presented with information supported by hard science which contradicts assertions of my religion made by pre-scientific people...

    And it's not a matter of simply choosing to reconsider new eveidence. I guy I know spoke of an analogy of questioning one's own faith. It's like being in a clearing in a deep woods. When you question the literal truth of your faith it is like venturing into the woods. While you are in the woods, it is very scary because you can't be certain that everyting you need to meet your needs will be there.

    some folks are small minded cowards. moral/spiritual courage is not the lack of fear but rather being afraid and doing the right thing regardless. unless one is truly enlightened. i refuse to surrender our educational system to small minded moral cowards who fear to think their own thoughts or consider the results of modern science which make them uncomfortable. pop an anti-depressent and see a shrink. the efficacy of modern psychotropic medication does not abnegate "god".

    coddling spiritual retards and failing to oppose them is not good for them, me, or our country.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/26/2008 @ 7:16pm

23. Posted by LVLIBERTY1 02/26/2008 @ 5:37pm

    So again, a US Senator talking about improvements to his state's economy and help from the Federal Government in implementing it....is beyond the Commerce Clause and beyond the Constitution?!??!?

    Again, what do you think Congresspeople SHOULD do ...again, besides sign off on TRILLIONS for foreign endeavours and military spending?

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 7:41pm

24. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 6:53pm

    Darin, YOU said it was "impossible" for Man to produce global warming.

    Is it? If we set fire to every forest, burnt coal in our homes AS WELL as for electricity; everybody drove an 18 wheeler tractor-truck; etc., etc.....no effect from the couple billion tons of CO2 we'd pump into the air? It's impossible.

    Posted by Mask at 02/26/2008 @ 7:43pm

25. I admit nothing. And, yes, it has helped the fight against terrorism. We aren't trying to convince or scare the terrorists, we're trying to kill them. And we've been wildly successful.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 4:34pm

    nonsense.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/26/2008 @ 11:38pm

26. He should have referred to the "Bush/Chaney" lies. They have put the Nazi's to shame as far lying goes.

    Posted by David Heyer at 02/27/2008 @ 12:11am

27. Posted by DAVID HEYER 02/27/2008 @ 12:11am | ignore this person

    lol - actually reminds me more of mr. goebbels' characterization of the english...

    That is of course rather painful for those involved. One should not as a rule reveal one's secrets, since one does not know if and when one may need them again. The essential English leadership secret does not depend on particular intelligence. Rather, it depends on a remarkably stupid thick-headedness. The English follow the principle that when one lies, one should lie big, and stick to it. They keep up their lies, even at the risk of looking ridiculous.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 02/27/2008 @ 02:03am

28. Posted by DAVID HEYER 02/27/2008 @ 12:11am

    Here's a bona fide scientist who in reconstructing Earth's long climate history gives the impression that the AGW propagandists may even be in front of Bush/Cheney and big H himself when it comes to lying (theirs compounded by ignoring and ridiculing the scientific method):

    http://tinyurl.com/2mpu2m

    Posted by harvey 79 at 02/27/2008 @ 05:41am

29. Harry Reid and his coal comments don't seem to mention the powerplants built at Shiprock to keep the lights on in Las Vegas at the cost of smog in the 4 Corners. Nor, I imagine has Mr. Reid spent much time opposing the water theivery necessary to keep the golf courses green at the Casinos.

    Posted by Qroger at 02/27/2008 @ 09:17am

30. Environmentalism is important.

    Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/27/2008 @ 07:50am

    an expression i would never use.

    how about "we are dirty pigs with a limited capacity to understand the ramifications of our greed"?

    humans are the only animals stupid enough to try to live on top of their ecosystem instead of inside it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/27/2008 @ 09:22am

31. golf courses green at the Casinos.

    Posted by QROGER 02/27/2008 @ 09:17am

    hey, i hear they're gonna open golf courses on the moon!!!!!!!!!

    A rat done bit my sister Nell With Whitey on the moon Her face and arms began to swell And Whitey's on the moon

    I can't pay no doctor bills But Whitey's on the moon Ten years from now I'll be paying still While whitey's on the moon

    You know, the man just upped my rent last night Cause whitey's on the moon No hot water, no toilets, no lights But whitey's on the moon

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/27/2008 @ 09:25am

32. Well, I see Al Gore is issuing decrees regarding moratoriums on coal production plants again. Say, Dave did he say anything about an alternative to use in the meantime? I didn't catch that part.

    Dave?? Al???

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 02/27/2008 @ 1:53pm

33. turn off the light.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/27/2008 @ 3:37pm

34. NELLY FURTADO LYRICS

    "Turn Off The Light"

    It's getting so lonely inside this bed

    Don't know if I should lick my wounds or say woe is me instead

    And there's an aching inside my head

    It's telling me I'm better off alone

    But after midnight morning will come

    And the day will see if you will get some

    [Chorus:] They say that girl ya know she act too tough tough tough

    Well it's till' I turn off the light, turn off the light

    They say that girl you know she act so rough rough rough

    Well it's till' I turn off the light, turn off the light

    And I say follow me follow me follow me down down down down till' you see all my dreams

    Not everything in this magical world is quite what it seems

    Posted by Happy at 02/27/2008 @ 10:08pm

35. Posted by HAPPY 02/27/2008 @ 10:08pm

    she's talented.

    too bad she had to be sluttified like they always do.

    miley cyrus will be next. give her two years and disney will stuff her in a corset singing

    "wicked love, wild sweat, blah blah blah............"

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/28/2008 @ 01:59am

36. http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/hilarious__/hilary_/best-celebs07- 02.jpg

    http://i92.photobucket.com/albums/l21/hilarious__/hilary_/EmergingHottie sof2008.jpg

    http://i78.photobucket.com/albums/j83/michaelbrent/Cosmopolitan-Hungary- 1.jpg

    http://cdn.channel.aol.com/channels/07/03/4602d0d6-00108-0336c-400cb8e1 [oooh, fishnets!]

    They Grow Up So Fast

    LONDON: -- Hilary Duff has undergone some changes, hasn't she? The newly dark-and-sexy pop-tart performed songs from her new CD -- while scantily clad, of course -- at GAY, London's biggest gay club.

    sorry to pollute your blog, mr roberts.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 02/28/2008 @ 09:44am

37. Posted by MARYBRETBRAD 02/26/2008 @ 11:33am

    Because we'd be creating even more of a waste product that we have no idea how to deal with. (For instance, if we did open Yucca mountain at its full intended capacity right now, it would be immediately full.) And then we'd have to make another facility designed to outlast the entire history f humankind - hell, we can't even make a highway that lasts more than about two winters.

    Posted by IBBLEBLIBBLE 02/26/2008 @ 5:10pm

    Here, here!

    ALL

    So Harry Reid gets roasted for a Hitler reference (even an academic one) but when GWB used the same basic premise in earnest he gets a pass? (the Iraq lies are well documented and exposed now ... )

    "See, in my line of work you got to keep repeating things over and over and over again for the truth to sink in, to kind of catapult the propaganda." --President George W. Bush, Greece, N.Y., May 24, 2005

    Posted by leftofcenter at 02/28/2008 @ 10:19am

38. Time Magazine 30 December 1985

    '...Secretary of State George Shultz last week became the latest U.S. statesman to try, touring a trio of East European capitals in the hope of lifting the Iron Curtain an inch or two....Shultz's journey, his first through Eastern Europe, took him to three countries--Rumania, ... the government requires citizens to light each room with only a single 40-watt bulb and for no more than six hours a day. Indeed, Shultz and his entourage decided not to stay overnight in Bucharest in part because they were unsure whether there would be adequate light and heat. When the Secretary's motorcade left the capital at 6 p.m., the city was already as blacked out as London during the Blitz....'

    Posted by HonestLiberal at 02/28/2008 @ 5:38pm