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RedditHurricane Katrina is often called a natural disaster, as if it was all nature's fault, not man's. The reality, of course, is that federal, state and local governments ignored warnings from scientists for years, both that climate change would lead to increased storm activity, and that destruction of wetlands outside of New Orleans had hurt the city's natural defenses against a storm surge. Calls for fixing levees and infrastructure investments went unheeded while the doctrine of markets and profits held sway.
This week, a federal district judge finally ruled that the Army Corps of Engineers was indeed responsible for part of the devastation in New Orleans' Lower Ninth Ward and parts of St. Bernard Parish.
The failure of the Corps to recognize the hazards wetland destruction had created was "clearly negligent on the part of the Corps," said U.S. District Judge Stanwood Duval Jr. "Furthermore, the Corps not only knew, but admitted by 1988 [the threats to human life] and yet it did not act in time to prevent the catastrophic disaster that ensued."
In this decision alone the government could wind up paying $700,000 in damages. It doesn't sound like enough. More importantly, though, the ruling could open the gates to judgments that could reach into the billions.
No judgment will bring back the Ninth Ward which, years after Katrina and Rita and the breaking of the levees is still largely a ghost town, but this acknowledgment that the destruction didn't have to happen is important. Long neglect of federal infrastructure by governments more concerned with tax cuts than human safety is not a phenomenon limited to New Orleans. The NOLA negligence verdict makes the case for national infrastructure spending now.
By way of reparations, how about not just $700,000 to the plaintiffs in the New Oreleans suit but a re-commitment to infrastructure spending at the federal state and local level. You want national security? Stimulus? Jobs? That's it, and this is the time. When you hear let the talk turn predictably to deficits and spending cuts instead, remember, while DC measures deficits in dollars, on the Gulf Coast, the deficit in spending is measured in lost lives.
The F Word is a regular commentary by Laura Flanders, the host of GRITtv which broadcasts weekdays on satellite TV (Dish Network Ch. 9415 Free Speech TV) on cable, and online at GRITtv.org and TheNation.com. Follow GRITtv or GRITlaura on Twitter.com.
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Apologies for the space hogging today --probably not such a bad thing based on what usually hogs these spaces....
RX FOR POLITICAL SYPHILIS: Focused Anger, Renewed Resolve and Leadership Most of All
Here's a special to the Nation magazine by yours truly, B Kool:
Excerpt:
"Massive military spending is not only counterproductive and destabilizing for the entire planet, it simultaneously deprives us of the funding sorely needed to educate ourselves and prevent so many from falling in love with soulless, sadistic, hideously ugly, ignorant, media whores like Sarah Palin…..If Palinism is a disease, the American body politic is quickly degenerating into a syphilitic monster."
EXTRAORDINARY TIMES DEMAND EXTRAORDINARY EFFORTS
Allow me to begin with the easy and obvious. What's wrong with the right? This is like shooting fish in a barrel, only I find fish far more beautiful, diverse and fascinating than right wingers in America. In Sarah Palin, we have the answer for us, nice and tidy. No, she's not likely to win an election for anything important any time soon, and yes, we should probably be thankful if she's in the conversation for a presidential nomination in 2012 –astronomically unlikely, in my opinion. She's an albatross around conservative's necks, but that's an awful lot of necks connected to an awful lot of absurdly ignorant heads. The problem with the right, broadly, is that there are far too many of them, and they are so obscenely wrong on a multitude of issues that affect the quality of life for all of us. This has been in the making for decades now, but the consequences have begun to queue up like a police line-up of thick-skulled thugs straight out of your worst nightmares.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
It was Carl Sagan who warned us just before his untimely death in late 1996, that we live in a demon haunted world, at least that's what too many of us see –demons, angels and darkness instead of the intelligent illumination of human love, kindness, felicity and fairness. The disturbing climax of Sagan's superb book, "The Demon Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark" is a midway chapter consisting of excerpted letters chosen randomly, written in response to his Parade magazine article that was crafted to debunk claims of alien visitations and abductions of humans on Earth. The chapter, appropriately titled, "City of Grief", is an indictment of our broad abilities to think clearly, and even if it does not represent a scientifically constructed poll, the results should represent a wake up call to our society. We can do much better, and we MUST if we are going to survive for the long haul.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
I think Jonathan Schell's latest superb Nation piece, "The Fifty-Year War", helps to illuminate the political consequences of a demon haunted world –coincidentally, Tom Engelhardt elaborates on Schell's excellent points here, tinyurl.com/yaxswmf. It's a place where Presidents dance like marionettes to the whims of a fearful and ignorant rightwing mob instead of responding to the reasoned and well-constructed arguments of the best of the left. [Actually, as I've stated on these blog threads before, perhaps a more meaningful division is between the sane and reasonable and the fearful and ignorant rather than "left" versus "right". Sadly, much of the right has essentially found itself in the powerful jaws of a rabid pit bull, being violently whipped around like a rag doll. They seem to enjoy it.] The left in America has been, and certainly is now, an abject failure. Presidents don't respond to it because it doesn't froth at the mouth. But mouth foaming (fortunately) is not the only way to wield influence.
We on the left need to be much more assertive, monolithic and far more spinally principled on at least a few of the critical issues we face such as 1) the need to dramatically downsize our military and its overseas footprint, 2) renewed and massive investment at home to create jobs and emphasize environmentally sound living, 3) a T. Roosevelt-like program of big bank busting and 4) a completely revamped system of publicly financed elections to wrest away control of our dying democracy from plutocrats.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
Why is it that we almost never hear anyone in the so-called mainstream media stating that our military is beached-whale-bloated beyond any reasonable requirement of a so-called democracy? Ours is the military of a fascist state. But you won't hear that because Rachel and Keith and Katrina simply will not get on the same page and repeat it enough for it to sink in with the general public. This is a gargantuan failure to acknowledge the obvious. Massive military spending is not only counterproductive and destabilizing for the entire planet, it simultaneously deprives us of the funding sorely needed to educate ourselves and prevent so many from falling in love with soulless, sadistic, hideously ugly, ignorant, media whores like Sarah Palin.
Let me be clear, I don't actually hate Sarah Palin, and she's probably less evil than the quintessential Hitlerian propaganda screech doll, Ann Coulter. But Palin is also vapid, mean spirited, misguided to the point of derangement, and she represents a doppelganger of the abject ignorance and callous-heartedness of a distressingly large swath of America's populace. But what is most disturbing about Sarah Palin is how she has managed to reach such a pinnacle of popularity via a blizzard of lies, half-truths and uncorrected misinformation. If Palinism is a disease, the American body politic is quickly degenerating into a syphilitic monster. None of us should be comforted by the fact that we are not yet affected-- we are, regardless of whether we choose to acknowledge it.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
The battle, as many of us can clearly see, is an epic one, and it is one that we are losing badly as we speak. And when this war is lost, NO ONE will profit. As Sagan once wisely said, "Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence". We have now arrived at the time for its desperately needed corollary, "Extraordinary times demand extraordinary efforts".
We need to be keenly aware that virtually everything we think and do is ultimately a political act far more profound than our infrequent, and largely, weakly symbolic visits to the polls. It is time to take seriously the need to change how we live and how we consume, including most intimately, what and how we eat. I strongly encourage readers to investigate some of the fabulously readable books (or CDs) by Michael Pollan, such as "The Botany of Desire", "The Omnivore's Dilemma" or most recently, "In Defense of Food". And then walk and bike more, and eat less and better. If not, perhaps, a giant leap, such moves would represent a giant step in the right direction.
No, we likely cannot change the world by ourselves, but we have no choice but to try, and then someday maybe….just MAYBE, we'll get the leaders we deserve who will in turn respond to our informed and well-founded wishes.
The ultimate goal must be nothing less than an unprecedented paradigm shift –for the better-- in what it means to be "human". In the meantime, batten down the hatches and prepare the figurative candles, matches and emergency supplies, because we are most certainly on a direct path into the teeth of a torrential storm of darkness and fear.
The surest route to blunting its force would be an effective leader –the planet is waiting.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 1:41pm
Ms. Flanders:
"No judgment will bring back the Ninth Ward which, years after Katrina and Rita and the breaking of the levees is still largely a ghost town, but this acknowledgment that the destruction didn't have to happen is important...."
Someday, perhaps, we'll get a similar acknowledgement regarding the Cheney/Dubya regime and more broadly, the neocon movement in US foreign policy as well as the US based financial collosus/brontosaurus that has swept up the Obama administration in its path as well.
We have enough to apologize to the world for as it currently stands. I sincerely hope that we figure out a way to (at the very least) not add to the mountainous heap of misery we're subjecting the planet to.
~Peace out, B
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 2:09pm
The summary, in numbers:
Postings by b_kool_66: 6
Worthwhile comments offered up by b_kool_66: 0
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 2:17pm
FLANDERS: ".....destruction of wetlands outside of New Orleans had hurt the city's natural defenses against a storm surge."
Just how the large parts of NO that is below sea level, and has been below sea level for a long, long time (ever since the Mississippi was dammed up and the delta began to sink due to lack of sand replenishment) have ANY "natural defenses" to begin with?
And, even if the Corp. of Engineers had done a flawless job in levee maintenance, what would a storm surge that's several feel higher, as was initially thought when Katrina was going to land as a Cat 4 or even 5, have done? Overtop the levees, just maybe, huh?
Posted by Happy at 11/20/2009 @ 2:19pm
For many decades, people have been living with this risk by living BELOW SEA LEVEL in a coastal location.
The blame first and foremost needs to be with the state and local goverments in Louisiana and New Orleans for even allowing a buildup of communities in such a risky location.
Secondly, it is the responsibility of state and local governments if they are going to develop in risky areas to provide the necessary geographical and other changes required for people to live safely in those areas.
It is not the responsibility of the US govt to dictate these developments or the safeguards.
This was a partisan ruling by a liberal judge and a little investigation reveals a lot about his politics
<Stanwood Richardson Duval, Jr. (born February 8, 1942[1], is a U.S. District Court judge in the Eastern District of Louisiana. He was appointed by President Bill Clinton in 1994.[2], and has his chambers in New Orleans.
Judge Duval is best known for having issued an injunction in 2000 which barred the State of Louisiana from issuing "Choose Life" vanity automobile license plates, as the legislature had approved in 1999. Duval ruled in favor of Planned Parenthood of America, which took the view that the choice of displaying the plates violated the First Amendment to the United States Constitution because there was no alternative display available for supporters of abortion. Judge Duval's opinion was unanimously reversed by the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals in New Orleans on April 13, 2005.>
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanwood_Duval
Gov Jindal has correctly labeled Judge Duval a leftist jurist.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:20pm
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:20pm </i>
(With some modification)
"You think states should do the governing wall-to-wall, and that's a perfectly valid opinion. Reverend, your home state of California takes in billions of dollars from the federal government. Can we have it back, please?"
Posted by Thrawn at 11/20/2009 @ 2:25pm
"Worthwhile comments offered up by B Kool = 0
~SJ "Dum" Schmack
Translation:
SJ can't stand listening patiently. Back to your Ritalin, Schmack. And no pudding for you since you didn't eat your meat.
;-)
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 2:28pm
Climate Change has not led to increased storm activity. To start with, it is an open question whether climate change (outside of the normal fluctuations of the earth's climate that have occured since time began) is even happening.
But beyond that, there sure has not been any "increased storm activity".....of course, Katrina was catastrophic but in the years since 2005 there have been a lower than normal number of storms striking the mainland U.S.....considerably lower than normal.
Hurricane Camille in, I believe the 60's was catastropic. There was a horrendous hurricane that struck the Galveston, Texas area in the early 1900's before the practice began of naming storms....Hurricane activity and intensity has fluctuated over the years and is not constant from year to year.
But that does not stop Laura Flanders from intoning that state, local and federal governments are to blame for ignoring that climate change would lead to increased storm activity.
Then, as night follows day, she manages to work tax cuts into the blame equation as well.
One area she does depart from the norm on is that George W. Bush is not cited by name to be included in the blame calculation. No problem there, just like in a relay race blogger b_kool_66 picks up the baton and works in angst about the "Cheney/Dubya regime"!
Does anybody on the left have any productive solutions to problems we face, instead of constant finger pointing and constant identification of all the wrongs and sins this country and those not on the political left are guilty of?
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 2:30pm
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:20pm </i>
(With some modification)
"You think states should do the governing wall-to-wall, and that's a perfectly valid opinion. Reverend, your home state of California takes in billions of dollars from the federal government. Can we have it back, please?"
Posted by Thrawn at 11/20/2009 @ 2:25pm
I wish they would give it back. I never asked the state to do that. It was our RINO lib governor.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:33pm
"To start with, it is an open question whether climate change (outside of the normal fluctuations of the earth's climate that have occured since time began) is even happening...."
~Schmack at 2:30
And here's Schmack in his school days:
tinyurl.com/yhcmbtg
Front row, third from the left I think.
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 2:41pm
"it is an open question whether climate change (outside of the normal fluctuations of the earth's climate that have occured since time began) is even happening"
(quote of the week)
"Does anybody on the left have any productive solutions to problems we face"
uh, yeah. but our colleagues on the right are only interested in defeating any solutions we propose.
why?
because they don't have any solutions.....
...except more tax cuts.
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 2:42pm
"I wish they would give it back. I never asked the state to do that. It was our RINO lib governor"
(non-answer of the day)
how stupid do you have to be to.....GIVE BACK....billions of federal dollars during a massive recession???
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 2:44pm
Does anybody on the left have any productive solutions to problems we face, instead of constant finger pointing and constant identification of all the wrongs and sins this country and those not on the political left are guilty of?
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 2:30pm
I'd much prefer that the Left stay at "constant finger pointing and constant identification of all the wrongs and sins this country".....it's easier to put up and screen out than every "solution" they have implemented which ALWAYS have created far more, bigger, and ever-more expensive problems.....hehe!
Posted by Happy at 11/20/2009 @ 2:46pm
Alright, have a good weekend everybody.
I'm outta here, and none too soon based on the flood of imbeciles that are swarming the blog spaces today.
Peace out, for real, ~B
P.S. Thanks a ton, Nation mag for the space to unload my thoughts where I know that at least a few folks will find, perhaps, some sustainance and a little enjoyment from my well-intended words.
:-)
Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 2:48pm
"it's easier to put up and screen out than every "solution" they have implemented which ALWAYS have created far more, bigger, and ever-more expensive problems"
right, and bush and the GOP had nothing to do with our current problems
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 2:54pm
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:20pm </i>
"You think states should do the governing wall-to-wall, and that's a perfectly valid opinion. Reverend, your home state of California takes in billions of dollars from the federal government. Can we have it back, please?
Posted by Thrawn at 11/20/2009 @ 2:25pm
don't forget larry's drinking water is a stimulus funded bonanza!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 2:58pm
Does anybody on the left have any productive solutions to problems we face, instead of constant finger pointing and constant identification of all the wrongs and sins this country and those not on the political left are guilty of?
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 2:30pm
Heaven forbid the citizen's of a nation should identify and try to learn from their mistakes or those of their leaders, or that said leaders should learn from their mistakes and take responsibility for them. And heaven forbid conservatives or libertarians - or the scions of big business - should take responsibility for their errors, even after spending decades lecturing others about the need to take responsibility for one's choices and actions.
If you don't like the solutions offered from the left, then explain why that is so. Don't hide behind this "Oh, you're fingerpointing and you can't let go of the past!" BS. And spare us the "America is a righteous, shining city on the hill that can do no wrong and is the greatest country EVER!" crap, too. Serious conservatives - including the ones who've done or supported things I consider criminal that they think were moral and necessary - don't try selling that Pollyannaish swill.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/20/2009 @ 3:00pm
"I wish they would give it back. I never asked the state to do that. It was our RINO lib governor"
(non-answer of the day)
how stupid do you have to be to.....GIVE BACK....billions of federal dollars during a massive recession???
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 2:44pm
Because the Federal Debt is making our situation worse, not better and even some Democrats are now unwilling to put us further into debt
http://tinyurl.com/yzdnr3n
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 3:01pm
For many decades, people have been living with this risk by living BELOW SEA LEVEL in a coastal location.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/20/2009 @ 2:20pm
yeah!
they should live in a desert!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 3:02pm
'...the hazards wetland destruction had created...' -- Laura Flanders
'...the site of the Vieux Carre looked promising in 1718. All things being relative of course, it was promising in contrast with the cypress swamps that surrounded it, giving rise to 19th century street names like Marais (swamp, quagmire), the old name for the modern street alongside the Superdome. ...
Technological progress in the 20th century for the first time made all 200 square miles in the city limits "inhabitable," including the Ninth Ward. The formidable A. Baldwin Wood pumping system went on line in 1908, after which the city's growth was "freed" of its topographical limitations.' -- http://frenchquarter.com/ history/KatrinaHistory.php
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/20/2009 @ 3:17pm
Maybe when the Bush Presidential Library & Theme Park opens, they can create a submarine/log flume ride called...
"20,000 Leagues Under New Orleans"?
Posted by Mask at 11/20/2009 @ 3:18pm
darladoon,
You say (about the policical right, above):
"......because they don't have any solutions.....
...except more tax cuts......"
Darladoon, I like your idea!
More tax cuts sounds like a good solution to me....since tax cuts get money back to the people that acutally earn money, do productive work, and develop businesses and activity that spur economic growth and thus create more employment and a better economy and more people that are self-sustaining contributors to society.....it seems like a good solution.
Imagine, people fending for themselves, no longer needing help from the government, no longer dependent on the government, producing and contributing and building things and doing things in a free society....an environment that has time and time again created a better life for more people than state-controlled and financed solutions that keep people in poverty, inhibit creativity and free expression, excessively regulate people's lives and reduce growth and innovation......a people who are much more able to lend a productive helping hand to those that need help to become self-sufficient also.....people that have self-esteem and self-worth because they are making their way in life on their own through their own efforts rather than being helpless wards of the state......
Every once in a while, you come up with the right solution, Darladoon.
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 3:24pm
they should live in a desert!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 3:02pm
Alas, they will find the same arrogance in American desert cities. Places like Las Vegas demand that water be provided to them, at the expense of the Federal government (that is, taxpayers elsewhere), the same way that New Orleans demands that water be kept out.
Posted by Mistral at 11/20/2009 @ 3:29pm
"Imagine, people fending for themselves, no longer needing help from the government, no longer dependent on the government, etc., etc...."---Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 3:24pm
Don't have to imagine it...we had it.
It was called the 1890s.
Kids were able to exercise their entrepenuerial spirit...and work in un-regulated coal mines. Factory owners weren't burdened with "crippling regulations" like having fire exits and sprinklers. Workers were free to enjoy 12 hour work days....or free to enjoy starvation, their choice of course.
Meat packers used their liberty to give us new types of racid meat that we're prevented from enjoying today by the socialist policies of Big Government.....and any pharmaceutical you could boil up in a cauldron in your basement could be called a "cancer cure" with none of that pesky FDA Marxism getting in your way.
It was a glorious time.
Posted by Mask at 11/20/2009 @ 3:35pm
Imagine, people fending for themselves, no longer needing help from the government,
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 3:24pm
It's a tough balancing act. Sometimes government help is a problem: destroying the Louisiana wetlands to provide (slowly sinking) housing was a bad program. But the Erie Canal was a brilliant project.
Since we need wisdom to decide what to do, we elect executives with substantial experience and proven records to high office.
Posted by Mistral at 11/20/2009 @ 3:53pm
since tax cuts get money back to the people that acutally earn money, do productive work, and develop businesses and activity that spur economic growth and thus create more employment and a better economy
Posted by sjchermak at 11/20/2009 @ 3:24pm
Yeah, those financial wizards on Wall Street have been SOOOO productive, especially at developing financial bubbles that wiped out people's savings and left us with millions of feet of unused office space and housing. I.e., unsustainable, short-term employment and a fundamentally unsound economy.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/20/2009 @ 4:21pm
.....those financial wizards on Wall Street have been SOOOO productive, especially at developing financial bubbles that wiped out people's savings and left us with millions of feet of unused office space and housing. I.e., unsustainable, short-term employment and a fundamentally unsound economy.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/20/2009 @ 4:21pm
Are you at all familiar with cycles?
Like the ocean tides and the orbits of the moon/earth? Same deal in our economy!
Overcapacity followed by pricing collapse followed by mothballing of the least efficient followed by demand recovery follwed by irrational exuberance followed by political grandstanding followed by.......
As our Gubbers get ever more involved in the economy, the peaks & valleys of the cycles get amplified....that, you can take it to the bank (make sure it's not on Wall St.).
Posted by Happy at 11/20/2009 @ 4:31pm
Yeah, those financial wizards on Wall Street have been SOOOO productive,
Posted by cka2nd at 11/20/2009 @ 4:21pm
The only thing productive (to their shareholders) they've done lately is convince the Obama Administration to give them money.
Posted by Mistral at 11/20/2009 @ 4:34pm
"More tax cuts sounds like a good solution to me"
if that's a "good solution" to you, then you obviously recuse yourself from complaining about the plunging deficits.
then you obviously recuse yourself from complaing that obama is "dithering" on afghanistan, when MORE FEDERAL MONEY is what's needed to "win."
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 6:44pm
and you also obviously recuse yourself from complaining that obama is "dithering" on job creation
what? you think obama can juse create jobs without........spending money?
Posted by darladoon at 11/20/2009 @ 6:50pm
Posted by Happy at 11/20/2009 @ 4:31pm
Yes, Happy, I am aware of business cycles, and of booms and busts. But these cycles have become more compressed, and the system more dependent on the booms to keep going, during this period of Late Capitalism, the era of the triumph of finance over industry, the time of capitalism's decline into a virtual inability to do anything positive for the planet.
Posted by cka2nd at 11/20/2009 @ 11:20pm
they should live in a desert!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/20/2009 @ 3:02pm
Alas, they will find the same arrogance in American desert cities. Places like Las Vegas demand that water be provided to them, at the expense of the Federal government (that is, taxpayers elsewhere), the same way that New Orleans demands that water be kept out.
Posted by Mistral at 11/20/2009 @ 3:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Someone just turned on a light rather than curse the darkness! Don't expect accolades for rational thinking in leftist intellectual wasteland.
Posted by BigPasture at 11/21/2009 @ 12:30am
The heading "Man Made Disaster" and B_ kool_66's "six times around the earth" irrelevant rant says it all.
The Left has never had any useful political/economic solutions and has since its inception, as a political force, consistently backed the wrong horse. Famously so with its embrace of Marxist economics and its crowning failure - the Soviet Union, so why should anyone including Obama listen expectantly to it.
It seems that the two former Communist entities are now much more enamored with the usefulness of modern conservative economics, where the market rules, than with looking to their Marxist roots for solutions. One would expect that they are in an infinitely better position than Western dilettantes and enthusiasts to give an opinion on which is the most useful and resilient economic system to transform and grow a national economy.
Yes, not only superior in its economic wealth building outcomes but also resilient; "the greatest financial disaster since the great depression" is over in less than a year. And some disciples of the Left want to take us back to policies that made the real Great Depression last much longer than it need have.
Having had such a solutions failure on the economic front can we expect the Left to not stuff things up terribly with its solution for another "man made disaster" - climate change? Please, in the name of all your past failures, do not offer any "solutions" to "save" our world.
It's a shame that enthusiasts like B cool cannot find safer (for the rest of us) hobbies in which to engage, in his case, an obvious literary talent.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 06:26am
And no pudding for you since you didn't eat your meat. Posted by b_kool_66 at 11/20/2009 @ 2:28pm
When I listen to that particular Pink Floyd song. I always chuckle and change the lyrics to "How can get any pudding if you don't beat your meat." But I'm a bit twisted..
I used to live in Orleans Parish, St. Bernard Parish and St. Tammany Parish. It was always a hot topic of conversation every hurricane season as to the chances of the "Big One" hitting the Bullseye. I worked on the river at a ship dock facility in St. Bernard. And almost every year we would have to do emergency hurricane preparedness preparations at the facility and refinery then go home, cross our fingers and hope for the best.
In New Orleans you can stand on Canal Street and "look up" at the ships passing by on the river. Everbody who lives there knows the inherent danger of living below sea level. They have for hundreds of years. But as a port, New Orleans is unrivaled. A very valuable piece of Real Estate in that respect.
With increased coastal degradation of the natural wetland barriers, New Orleans became increasingly more at risk over the years. And the failure of the Army Corps of Engineers to address this problem was not entirely their fault. Lack of funding from federal and state government hamstrung the Engineers.
The corrupt Government of this country was willing to roll the dice with the most important Port in this country. The government would rather waste money on a bloated military and it's corporate leeches than protect our most important economic infrastructure. The Army Corps of Engineers pleaded for funding of projects they never received and also made some fatal mistakes in projects to divert a river that cares nothing about mans designs.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 09:29am
Hey, lrjones, the "greatest financial disaster since the great depression" is over? Could have fooled me. Tell that to the people who have been raped by the "financial industry" and are still being beaten down by said industry.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 09:34am
Famously so with its embrace of Marxist economics and its crowning failure - the Soviet Union, Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 06:26am
How about the resounding success of some "Marxist" principles that are being practiced in the Socialist Democracies of the EU? It is morons like you that insist on throwing the baby out with the bathwater.
The EU, which has refined some Marxist principles to a fine art are currently whipping the crap out of cancerous forms of predatory capiltalism that are being practiced here. The EU is currently the Number One economic powerhouse in the World. And most members of the EU are using some basic "Marxist" principles. And the people in those member countries are generally very happy and content with their "Marxism".
So how do you explain that Mr. Smarty Pants Capiltalist?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 10:05am
And the amazing thing is they manage to utilize "Marxist" economic principles to bolster their economies without sucking the life blood out of their vast middle class. Along with providing universal healthcare and social safety nets in times of economic downturns.
And how do they do this? They do it because the don't have to support the albatross of a bloated imperialistic tyrannical military that absorbs 51% of their GDP!
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 10:21am
With people like Irjones4 in this country undermining our Democracy with Fascism, we certainly don't need to be worrying about al qaeda.
We need to get rid of the real enemy.. The enemy within. Makes a generally peaceful patriotic citizen like me wanna get all "down home tribal an all".
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 10:29am
Ms Flanders, you and the rest of America missed the point.
Blaming the Corps is not the solution. This country is founded on water ports for economics and trade. Being in the business, with thousands of miles of levees and appurtenance works, it is just not possible to keep them all up.
The real solution has always been to limit our liabilities and mitigate the damages to bad decisions previously made.
Do not rebuild in harms way! Use existing Hazard Mitigation funding and planning to relocate out of the hurricane/flood zone and limit the development and infrastructure in the hazard zone to that which can be economically protected and maintained.
It is not rocket science. We have detailed two dimensional models that can predict flooding to within inches. Let's start to use that knowledge to get out of harms way.
Posted by JustOneBobofMany at 11/21/2009 @ 10:49am
Bullshit! I call Bullshit!
"The real solution has always been to limit our liabilities and mitigate the damages to bad decisions previously made."
"We have detailed two dimensional models that can predict flooding to within inches. Let's start to use that knowledge to get out of harms way." Posted by JustOneBobofMany at 11/21/2009 @ 10:49am
Predict flooding? Within inches? I can tell you have never been anywhere near the Mississippi River. The hubris it takes to make a statement like that is astounding. "The River" is a force of nature, there is no way to get out of "harms way". Since when have humans been overly concerned with getting out of harms way anyway? You sound like an insurance salesman.
We learn to live with risks versus benefits and use our brains to mitigate damages. And there will be damages. If we are to live with these risks we need intelligent planning and good government.
Have you ever been to Holland? Most of that country has been claimed from the sea. They are expert at living with the risk of flooding and mitigating damages by understanding natural forces. If anyone ever bothered to ask the Dutch for help in New Orleans we might well have averted disaster.
We should look to the people who know how to solve these problems. The Dutch live quite well in "Harms Way".
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 11:17am
The EU, which has refined some Marxist principles to a fine art are currently whipping the crap out of cancerous forms of predatory capiltalism that are being practiced here. The EU is currently the Number One economic powerhouse in the World. And most members of the EU are using some basic "Marxist" principles. And the people in those member countries are generally very happy and content with their "Marxism".
So how do you explain that Mr. Smarty Pants Capiltalist?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 10:05am |
So you have to have the combined output of 27 nations to outdo the US?
That's a joke
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:25am
So you have to have the combined output of 27 nations to outdo the US?
That's a joke
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:25am
You should know better than to try and blow that bullshit by me Anti.
I can always say: "So you are having to combine the output of 50 nation states with the output of 27 nation states and attempt to make a comparison?"
Now that really is a joke.
The EU is a union of member states, really no different than ours. So cut the crap.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 11:40am
You should know better than to try and blow that bullshit by me Anti.
I can always say: "So you are having to combine the output of 50 nation states with the output of 27 nation states and attempt to make a comparison?"
Now that really is a joke.
The EU is a union of member states, really no different than ours. So cut the crap.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 11:40am
I agree that presenting facts to you is a waste of time. To even suggest that there is a serious parallel just shows how desparate you are to support marxism over freedom and personal responsibility.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:44am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:25am
It must be frustrating for you to lose an argument everytime you open your increasingly irrelevant pie hole.
You really should abandon positions that are indefensible. It could lead to your total transformation into a real human being..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 11:50am
It must be frustrating for you to lose an argument everytime you open your increasingly irrelevant pie hole.
You really should abandon positions that are indefensible. It could lead to your total transformation into a real human being..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 11:50am
No, what is indefensible is your disproven and failed marxist beliefs.
How can I be of assistance in your relocation away from the US and those who actually believe in our constitution?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:08pm
Here is the goal of Chaoszen's EU-
use Copenhagen to establish a one world govt.
http://tinyurl.com/yjzhp8k
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:14pm
To even suggest that there is a serious parallel just shows how desparate you are to support marxism over freedom and personal responsibility.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 11:44am
I would also appreciate it if you could explain to me just how Marxist principles are a threat to freedom and personal reponsibility. And also explain to me why other countries who utilize certain Marxist principles don't seem to share your fear concerning "freedom". Marxism was always about "freedom". It was always about the "freedom" of working men and women who are the actual producers of wealth to control the conditions of their own lives and work. And it has always been about how working men and women can create a truly free society in which all contibute according to their ability and all receive according to their needs. Free from exploitation, free from oppression, free from racism, free from unemployment, free from war and free from poverty and inequality.
These are the devilish aspirations of "Marxism". The aspirations of "Freedom".
It sounds almost Christ-Like. And the likes of you claim to be Christians.
Prepare to burn in your Christian religions Hell. Fortunately, I'm a Buddhist.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 12:16pm
I would also appreciate it if you could explain to me just how Marxist principles are a threat to freedom and personal reponsibility. And also explain to me why other countries who utilize certain Marxist principles don't seem to share your fear concerning "freedom". Marxism was always about "freedom". It was always about the "freedom" of working men and women who are the actual producers of wealth to control the conditions of their own lives and work. And it has always been about how working men and women can create a truly free society in which all contibute according to their ability and all receive according to their needs. Free from exploitation, free from oppression, free from racism, free from unemployment, free from war and free from poverty and inequality.
These are the devilish aspirations of "Marxism". The aspirations of "Freedom".
It sounds almost Christ-Like. And the likes of you claim to be Christians.
Prepare to burn in your Christian religions Hell. Fortunately, I'm a Buddhist.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 12:16pm
I've posted some of the reasons on numerous occasions.
Marx called for the abolition of the family unit
Marx called for an end to religion and philosophy.
Marx called for an end of private property.
Those are already reflected to some degree in the low percentage of citizens in Europe who still claim to follow a religious faith (other than the Muslim immigrants).
It is reflected in the lack of concern for the commitment to marriage in Europe.
And the property issue will be raised again there as the EU puts forth more of the global world govt goals.
As to hell, I don't have to be concerned since I have the promise of Jesus that I will be with Him.
You can't escape hell by claiming Buddhism.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:27pm
use Copenhagen to establish a one world govt.
http://tinyurl.com/yjzhp8k
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:14pm
Yeah Wow! The first president of the EU Herman Van Rompuy looks like a real threat. A totally uncontroversial 63 year old centrist. The Europeon Union's guy who Anti is worrying about establishing a "One World Government". He sounds real threatening talking about the economy and climate challenges. He has been described as "modest", "introverted" and "self effacing". He and his wife are better known for exploring the Australian outback in an old camper van.
He writes Japanese style haiku poems. He is a Catholic cleric. And was recently heard to say, "All human beings must, at some point in their lives, choose between mystery and absurdity".
Yup Anti, he sounds dangerous to me!
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 12:55pm
You can't escape hell by claiming Buddhism.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:27pm
I can however escape Hell by not believing in it. In my mythological process, Hell does not exist any more than Heaven does. The entire concept of "Good and Evil" is your Virus. Not mine.
And as far as Jesus is concerned and your "being with him", you obviously have no clue as to the lessons of Jesus. Although an advanced spirit such as Jesus may forgive you, such a being would never brook your hubris in pretending to speak for him.
I think that is considered heresy. But I'm no expert.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 1:17pm
How about the resounding success of some "Marxist" principles that are being practiced in the Socialist Democracies of the EU?
The EU, which has refined some Marxist principles to a fine art are currently whipping the crap out of cancerous forms of predatory capitalism that are being practiced here. The EU is currently the Number One economic powerhouse in the World. And most members of the EU are using some basic "Marxist" principles. And the people in those member countries are generally very happy and content with their "Marxism".
So how do you explain that Mr. Smarty Pants Capiltalist?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 10:05am
Don't have to Mr. Ignoramus. Because Marxist socialism in Europe, which has unashamedly embraced Conservative free market policies, is dead, dead as a Dodo. So the only place where it exists today is in your fervid imagination and a few archaic South American countries where they are, it seems, trying to reinvent the wheel.
It is only you Americans who seem to have trouble distinguishing the Welfare state from the Marxist state.
Those benefits that you envy have nothing to do with Marxist principles and are peripheral at most. I live in Australia which has had "free medicine" for longer than many European countries and like those, many, including the working poor, opt out of the "free" stuff (which is paid for in higher taxes) and use the rebate to buy Private Health Insurance because the government stuff sucks.
Here is a line from a film about what happened to socialism/Marxism:
"Heaven on Earth: The Rise and Fall of Socialism"
"This 3-hour documentary explores one of the most powerful political ideas in history. Socialism spread farther and faster than any religion. Then, in almost the blink of an eye, it all collapsed".
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:25pm
You choice. Mr. Ignoramus or Mr. Smarty Pants aka as Mr. Knowledgeable?
How to effect that transformation? Google up Marxism and prepare for a liberating discovery.
ps when you learn how to spell capitalist you can Google that up too and you will discover that the big C has been universally embraced also.
Just to recap.
The end of Marxist socialism, in Europe got its death knell sounded out loud and clear when the Berlin Wall came crashing down.
In more recent times the former victim states of Soviet Marxist socialism have just as warmly embraced free market economics and private enterprise as they too join the EU.
Ideologues like yourself are likely to remain in self imposed ignorance, that's the nature of the beast, but most practical people opt for things that work to enhance society ie its citizens. That's why most of the world has given Marxist socialism the flick and embraced the principles of Conservative economics.
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:26pm
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 1:25pm
Holy Crap! I must have blew a fuse in your brainpan. Good. That was my intention. I'm sorry that I can't comment on your post. It is so removed from reality that any attempt on my part to respond to any part of it would only tend to validate your obvious insanity.
And I would hope you would seek a resolution of that under your own power. Some people are just hopeless. And you are sadly, mayhaps, one of them.
How are people like you even allowed to draw a breath from the same air that I breath?
That is the true mystery.
Life could be tolerable if it weren't for miscreants like yourself.
I will continue the fight. And I suppose the likes of you will continue to oppose it.
And yet somehow I feel responsible for your ignorance. I wonder if God does too?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 1:42pm
So is it a stretch on my part to see a little of the healthcare debate in this?
on another thread some 'free marketers' were disparaging a gov't run health system saying, 'private is better'.
It was pointed out that one benefit of a public system is a measure (and yeah, it's a small one) of democratic contol and recourse.
The USArmy Corps of Engineers is a public system. They messed up and now have to pay. ouch.
If is was a private corp ...
*poof*
no?
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/21/2009 @ 1:56pm
Is it true that democrats included a one hundred million provision in the HC bill in additional aid to New Orleans just to get Senator Landrieu's vote just to proceed to debate? She took the bribe.
Is it also a fact that several democrats see themselves as martyrs and are expecting to go down in defeat in 2010 and 2012 just to get a HC bill passed?
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:06pm
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 12:27pm </i>
Almost none of the things you name are relevant to the particular issues chaoszen is raising; they link to Marx himself, but not to the specific arguments that chaoszen is drawing from him. Marx himself may have personally defended many of those things, but your argument would be far compelling if you could provide an analytical link between the position chaoszen is defending and the harms you raise here. Why don't you explain us how the pursuit of economic socialism links to the harms you describe?
To me, it seems like the most potent arguments against economic socialism would either be based on a conception of a right to property (the one harm you DO link to chasozen's position) or on the general inability of a socialist system to function with nearly the efficacy of a capitalist system (bearing in mind the fact that ALL economies are mixed, and that the question is one of which way the balance tilts).
Why not make those the focus rather than what appear to be a series of red herrings?
Posted by Thrawn at 11/21/2009 @ 4:09pm
The USArmy Corps of Engineers is a public system. They messed up and now have to pay. ouch.
If is was a private corp ...
*poof*
no?
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/21/2009 @
I guess you don't read so well. The Army Corps of Engineers was no more responsible for the debacle that was Katrina, than the State and Federal Government. I was in New Orleans and reading the Times Picayune daily. The Corps was constantly warning of disaster if funding needs were not met to update the levy system.
Why in the fuck do you think a "private" corporation would have fared any better?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 4:15pm
How self serving for the Federal Government to blame the Army Corps of Engineers for the Katrina damage. First, get flush the BS of global warming being the cause, Cat 5 hurricanes will occasionally occur no matter what. As for the Engineers, they have been warning for decades about the levee system and how it needed a Cat 5 upgrade. The Congress and Presidents going back to Carter have neglected to step up to the bar and fund the work. The Corps said it would take 20 years and several billion dollars to do the job so the work would have needed to be started in the early 80s at the latest.
Did you know the first levees to be built at New Orleans were done by the French in the 1700s?
Posted by pyeatte at 11/21/2009 @ 4:43pm
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 4:06pm
Anyone have answers for my above post?
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/21/2009 @ 5:09pm
To me, it seems like the most potent arguments against economic socialism would either be based on a conception of a right to property Posted by Thrawn at 11/21/2009 @ 4:09pm
The first right to property historically, was based on tribal property. And was established by the rights of War. It was landed property, and any individual rights to it were nothing more than mere "possession".
"Real" Private property, such as movable forms only evolved later. These were usually based on slavery and community. The idea of property moved from a communal need, to a private need. This is all nonsense of course as all property is communal and tribal by nature.
The American Indian Tribes had no conception of "private" ownership of property or land. Everything was communal and tribal. And the only way to hold property was through the right of War. But once that landed propery was established, all the things that came from it were communal within the Tribe.
So within a Tribe there is no right to "Property" on an individual basis. Only the right of immediate possession of that property based on the needs of the "State". Which is the "Tribe".
Individual property rights outside the needs of the State or the Tribe is ludicrous.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 5:26pm
Brew a pot of Jaimacan Blue Mountain Coffee and discuss amongst yourselves so we can understand the idea of property.
And no, Marx and Engels did not have all the answers to the human political landscape. They were overly idealistic and naive. But they did manage to hit more nails on the head than not.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 5:36pm
To me, it seems like the most potent arguments against economic socialism would either be based on a conception of a right to property (the one harm you DO link to chasozen's position) or on the general inability of a socialist system to function with nearly the efficacy of a capitalist system (bearing in mind the fact that ALL economies are mixed, and that the question is one of which way the balance tilts).
Why not make those the focus rather than what appear to be a series of red herrings?
Posted by Thrawn at 11/21/2009 @ 4:09pm
Because taking away the freedom of family, religion, and even philosophy is not freedom and certainly is not a red herring but central to the argument.
Chaoszen states that Europeans are free. I would argue that they are slaves to socialism and have lost their moral freedom or even worse, they have lost even a sense of what they have given up for economic security.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 5:57pm
they have lost even a sense of what they have given up for economic security.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 5:57pm
I sincerely doubt your premise that members of the EU have lost any of your purported "Freedom". Maybe you should ask them how "Free" they believe themselves to be.
They would probably relate to you that they are free from poverty, free from economic slavery, free from dying of preventable health disorders, free from homelessness and hunger, free from the human degradation that stems from inequality. And free from the tyranny of ideologies like yours.
You disgust me. You make me want to vomit. You are inhuman and fetid.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 6:12pm
You disgust me. You make me want to vomit. You are inhuman and fetid.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 6:12pm
Coming from you, that is laughable.
You would have to devote the next 20 years to helping the needy before you touch what I've done to help others.
I wouldn't want to be you or your life for any amount of money.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 6:26pm
they have lost even a sense of what they have given up for economic security.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 5:57pm
And on top of all that you seem to abhore the idea of economic security. I suppose sick twisted assholes like you must relish in the idea of others economic insecurity. It must give you a woody to think of the suffering of others, and how you can feel superior and righteous in your pathological selfish behaviour.
How such a wondrous and beautiful world could spawn such as you is a mystery to me.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 6:26pm
You would have to devote the next 20 years to helping the needy before you touch what I've done to help others. Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 6:26pm |
I suppose your idea of "helping others" is to help yourself. You sell insurance. That is a despicable avocation and occupation. People would not need any of your "insurance" if we truly took care of one another.
You sell a product that feeds off of the misfortune of others.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 6:36pm
I suppose your idea of "helping others" is to help yourself. You sell insurance. That is a despicable avocation and occupation. People would not need any of your "insurance" if we truly took care of one another.
You sell a product that feeds off of the misfortune of others.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 6:36pm
No, my idea of helping others is to feed the hungry, cloth the naked (provide clothing, blankets, coats as needed), provide shelter to the homeless, build schools for children, provide prayer, counsel, and encouragement when asked for.
That I have done both here in the US and around the world.
during the 90's we were feeding over 30,000 families every week, just here in Southern California. We sent cargo containers of food, medicine, clothing and school supplies around the world to India, Philippines, Africa, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Russia, and elsewhere.
As I said, you can't even begin to understand what I and others with me have done to help the needy.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 6:45pm
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 1:42pm
The old brain unable to intellectually deal with the real world? Don't worry you've still got a lot of mates on the Left whose ideas are as real world irrelevant as yours.
If you can think of a reasonably intelligent response I'm all ears. We are all here to learn. Right?
Posted by lrjones4 at 11/21/2009 @ 7:12pm
As I said, you can't even begin to understand what I and others with me have done to help the needy.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 6:45pm
during the 90's we were feeding over 30,000 families every week, just here in Southern California. We sent cargo containers of food, medicine, clothing and school supplies around the world to India, Philippines, Africa, Haiti, Dominican Republic, Russia, and elsewhere. Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 6:45pm
Wow! I'm impressed. You must have a really big kitchen and dining room to feed 30,000 families in! Or do you just take money from contributors to some bogus "Christian" organization that skims money off the top and pretends to help people? And then you can soothe your conscience and justify a tax free status? How many homeless people have you personally taken out to lunch lately?
How many homeless people have stayed in your house lately? How many of the poor and disenfranchised have you changed into productive, independant and proud human beings?
I would guess none. All you do is write a check to some outfit that does nothing to alleviate human suffering unless it benefits their agenda.
And then you feel all high and mighty about being a moral person. Does that hit home, you jerk?
I can smell your hypocrisy from here.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 7:15pm
Yes Anti, but the Europeans are "happy", so it doesn't matter what you think hmm.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 7:37pm
I travelled and lived in India for almost two years in the 70's. I never imagined such poverty. I had never seen such human suffering. Entire families living in squalor, disease and hopelessness. I saw lepers whose fingers had fallen off and hands wrapped in dirty bandages outstretched and begging me for a rupee.
I saw little children dying from starvation with huge terrified wide rheumy eyes and emaciated bodies.
At first I just gave them money.. Then I discovered that if I continued to give, I would very soon need a handout myself.
It was then that I realized that a larger solution was needed. There were people there that had more than they needed. Rich Hindus and profitable businessmen who were skilled in ignoring the suffering of their brothers and sisters.
And it occured to me that his was unfair. It seemed to me that unless everyone could be fed, housed and healthy, that no one should. It occured to me that we are all children of a social system that should not allow a select few to thrive off of the suffering of others.
I was devastated. And spent months in an Opium Den in Bombay. When I emerged I determined that I would fight for equality or learn to live with inequality. And living with inequality was out of the question. There was not enough Opium in the world to numb that pain.
I cannot live with this world or in this world unless everyone has equality. Period.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 8:00pm
Wow! I'm impressed. You must have a really big kitchen and dining room to feed 30,000 families in! Or do you just take money from contributors to some bogus "Christian" organization that skims money off the top and pretends to help people? And then you can soothe your conscience and justify a tax free status? How many homeless people have you personally taken out to lunch lately?
How many homeless people have stayed in your house lately? How many of the poor and disenfranchised have you changed into productive, independant and proud human beings?
I would guess none. All you do is write a check to some outfit that does nothing to alleviate human suffering unless it benefits their agenda.
And then you feel all high and mighty about being a moral person. Does that hit home, you jerk?
I can smell your hypocrisy from here.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 7:15pm
Farmers and markets donated every week to the ministry. We had nearly 100 volunteers each week gleaning through produce to take out stuff that was no good. We only fed actual meals to maybe a thousand a week. The rest was grocery boxes with vegetables, fruit, meat, cheese, breads, milk sometimes, and deserts, all kinds of groceries. We had two 40 foot trailors and sometimes travelled cross country to pick up donated goods.
We have sent cargo containers of donated rice to the Philippines and India.
Your response simply shows that you are truly ignorant of what a number of Christian ministries are doing to help the needy here and around the world.
No one in our ministry has ever taken a salary. The main headquarters is on 40 acres completely paid for by donations. Those who live on the property work onsite or travel to different countries to pay for their room and board.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 8:17pm
Yes Anti, but the Europeans are "happy", so it doesn't matter what you think hmm.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/21/2009 @ 7:37pm
I don't have the slightest need to care what they think nor do I think they care what I think.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 8:18pm
But people are not and never will be equal in talents or ability. Therefore, they will always be unequal in opportunity.
You cannot force people to be "better" or more productive or motivated. Hence, since you cannot lift the bottom up, your recourse is to tear down the achievers. To confiscate parts of their lives--for that is what money represents, slices of your life given for financial compensation--and transfer it to others.
I sense that you believe you are correct to steal life and distribute it as you see fit.
Equality of outcome is a fool's dream. We should instead strive for equality of opportunity, to the best we are able to establish it.
And we should seek to promote liberty, moreso than the illusion of equality.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/21/2009 @ 8:33pm
Just in case some want to know about the ministry and what we have done and do to help the needy in the world.
http://www.sommerhaven.org/pages/history.html
here is a story about the 350 thousand pounds of wheat to the Philippines that the ministry sent during a really tough time.
http://fransyl.multiply.com/photos/album/18
Or our effort to help an Orphanage in Kenya for children whose parents died of AIDS.
http://www.ghint.org/Projects/projects_kenya.htm
Our work with my dear friend Sister Gertrude in Uganda
http://www.neepuganda.org/index.html
Our work with my dear friend and brother in Christ, Nathaniel Barkat and the Christian Fellowship of Pakistan
http://tinyurl.com/bmlj96
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 8:42pm
No one in our ministry has ever taken a salary. Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 8:17pm
Of course no one in your "ministry" has ever taken a salary. Because then they would be required to pay taxes. They just skim money off the top, from other so called "benefactors".
How do think demons like Pat Robertson have become obscenely wealthy? They use the misery of others to spread political influence and enrich themselves on the backs of "well meaning" Christian dupes with a need to soothe their conscience.
Who do you think your trying to fool?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 8:55pm
Those who live on the property work onsite or travel to different countries to pay for their room and board.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/21/2009 @ 8:17pm
Yeah. and they travel to different needy countries with food in one hand and a brainwashing thought virus called the "Bible" in the other hand.
Spread that disease Anti! Too bad you can't encode the virus of Christian thought into a bowl of rice.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 9:01pm
And we should seek to promote liberty, moreso than the illusion of equality.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/21/2009 @ 8:33pm
Liberty only manifests itself when equality is achieved. To free others of suffering is "Liberty". By freeing others from suffering we insure that every individual can act according to their will. Free from coercion.
Coercion will always exist as long a any person must suffer under inequality. I define basic equality as a right to an education, a right to medical care, a right to eat a square meal, a right to basic housing and the right to a level playing field.
How do you describe "Liberty"? Most fascists describe "Liberty" as the right to die quickly and get the hell out of my face.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 9:14pm
"You would have to devote the next 20 years to helping the needy before you touch what I've done to help others"
no christian would ever say such things.
Posted by darladoon at 11/21/2009 @ 9:40pm
What? No more bullshit here to scour through? No more schrooms of enlightemnment to dig out of a pile of crap?
Seems like most of the trolls here are bereft of ideas. It's really hard to deny the truth. And even more difficult to banish evil from a forum of rational thought.
The dark side of humanity will always persist in picking at scabs. Sick fuckers.
They love the yellow pus of thought that promotes more infection.
They will pay dearly in the realm ot the afterlife and all the negative Karma they promote.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 9:46pm
no christian would ever say such things.
Posted by darladoon at 11/21/2009 @ 9:40pm
Thanks, darladoon. You hit the bullseye. I was flirting with it.
No true Christian would ever even mention such a thing. Let alone engage in self aggrandizement over an act of charity.
anti is an example of the worst humanity has to offer..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 9:53pm
And the sad thing is, he knows it. He realizes his own failures, and yet masturbates them.
He wallows in a pig sty, and yet pretends to occupy a temple.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 9:58pm
"As our Gubbers get ever more involved in the economy, the peaks & valleys of the cycles get amplified....that, you can take it to the bank (make sure it's not on Wall St.).
Posted by Happy at 11/20/2009 @ 4:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person "
Actually, we haven't had a crash of the nature of the Great Depression since the "Gubbers" in the period of FDR created a regulatory safety net. The crash of this nature has its origins in the "Gubbers" being less involved with the repeal of Glass-Steagall and the exemption of certain derivatives from the ambit of the securities laws.
Posted by brunowe at 11/22/2009 @ 12:09am
Why in the fuck do you think a "private" corporation would have fared any better?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/21/2009 @ 4:15pm
Truly I don't. Maybe my post was opaque, but i really meant the opposite.
I don't think any one institution 'caused' katrina. My point is about recourse/liability and the possibility of it with public systems. And the impossibility of it with (clever) corporations.
Posted by Blair Wooff at 11/22/2009 @ 1:57pm
Christians occasionally do some decent things for others, although equally often for all the wrong reasons. Helping the poor is great, but when you have an agenda like most churches, the reasons you do charity work are things like egoism, self-aggrandizement and a form of 'idol-worship' called arrogance. When you people start doing kind things for people out of simple KINDNESS and stop promoting and starting wars of aggression to promote your own vile ideologies, against people who don't share them, I'll start taking you seriously. As it is, you people have FAR too much blood on your filthy hands to lecture a crocodile about morality.
Posted by DejaVu at 11/22/2009 @ 3:54pm
Christians occasionally do some decent things...
Posted by DejaVu at 11/22/2009 @ 3:54pm
Wow, you really do hate Christians.....my guess is, given your record, you're a Muslim not unlike Major Hasan.
Posted by Happy at 11/22/2009 @ 4:04pm
Wow...what an...interesting conversation has emerged. A heated discussion about fighting poverty and about the efficacy and legitimacy of ministries and, frankly, I think it's about time these issues were brought to the forefront.
Chaoszen, I think you're partly right about Christianity, in this respect: too often, the church has failed to live up to its calling. A lot of congregations will simply give some money to good causes abroad, and since they've given something, will feel content and consider themselves justified. I think you make a really good point that with all the suffering that exists, simply dropping some change in the bowl and moving on isn't nearly good enough. In fact, some of your statements reminded me of exhortations to, for instance, "invite the homeless poor into your house."
At the same time, though, I think your responses to antisocialist's discussion of ministry are patently unfair. I don't doubt that some number of ministries are designed exactly the way you describe, and some ministers really have given these systems a bad name. I would ask you to think twice, though, before tarring all ministries with that same broad brush because a lot of them aren't like that at all. A number of them devote their energies to feeding people, installing wells, providing opportunities to get out of poverty, and don't see their ministries as an opportunity to make themselves or their friends rich. Moreover, though I would certainly agree that making aid conditional on an affirmation of faith is morally and theologically perverse, I'm not sure why bringing religious ideas along with food is such a terrible thing.
I agree that Larry's post reflects a deficit of humility, but I don't think his efforts deserve to be summarily mocked and dismissed.
Posted by Thrawn at 11/22/2009 @ 4:44pm
I agree that Larry's post reflects a deficit of humility, but I don't think his efforts deserve to be summarily mocked and dismissed.
Posted by Thrawn at 11/22/2009 @ 4:44pm
I only posted it because he charged that my helping the poor was by making money off of them selling insurance.
I simply wanted to correct that false charge.
We don't need or look for credit or glory, or even thanks. We do it because we are called to reflect the love of Christ in doing these actions as if unto Him.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/22/2009 @ 6:28pm
<i>Posted by antisocialist at 11/22/2009 @ 6:28pm </i>
That's fair. I think there's an argument that it went beyond what was needed for that, but I understand a little better why the post was made and can respect that.
Posted by Thrawn at 11/22/2009 @ 7:29pm
So who can we blame for the asteroid that wiped out the dinosaurs?
"Did you lose your place to a mammal? Call Saruous, Saur, and Rex for all of your litigation needs."
Posted by bleedingheart at 11/22/2009 @ 9:57pm
Can't you just hear that redneck comedian?
"If you live in a city that's 6 feet below sea level, and sinking.....
Posted by bleedingheart at 11/22/2009 @ 10:00pm
bleedingheart, haha.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/23/2009 @ 5:50pm
Laura Flanders considers herself a feminist and yet, she uses sexist language like "man-made disaster." What a disappointment.
Posted by ktrig at 11/23/2009 @ 8:47pm
<i>Posted by ktrig at 11/23/2009 @ 8:47pm</i>
I believe the right response is...
low-impact?
I.e...of all the things that one could criticize, is that REALLY important? Does saying "man-made disaster" REALLY help to heighten or entrench sex disparities?
Some battles are worth fighting, but some are pretty trivial. This clearly falls into the latter category.
Posted by Thrawn at 11/24/2009 @ 04:44am
Can't you just hear that redneck comedian?
"If you live in a city that's 6 feet below sea level, and sinking.....
Posted by bleedingheart at 11/22/2009 @ 10:00pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Best thing about New Orleans I can find is it is already 6 feet under! We just have to fill it in.
Posted by BigPasture at 11/24/2009 @ 4:08pm