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RedditA fundamental tenet for both rightwing politicians and their media pilot fish is: Never, ever, apologize for the crazy. If you get caught exaggerating or even lying outright, simply respond by saying, "The left sees it differently" or "The mainstream media take their cues from liberals" or some such weasel-bite, even if the dispute is over widely accepted facts.
Yet in just the past couple of days, two of the loudest and most obdurate voices on the right have had to apologize, or at least feign doing so, for major bloopers concerning Rep. Michelle Bachmann's Tea Party rally held on Capitol Hill on November 5.
The most slippery mea culpa came from Fox News's Sean Hannity. On the day of the rally (a/k/a "the Super Bowl of Freedom"), he used fake footage to bolster Bachmann's absurd claim that the protest drew a crowd of 20,000 to 45,000--when reliable estimates stretch from 4,000 to 10,000, tops. Hannity's producers spliced scenes from the much larger 9/12 rally sponsored by Glenn Beck in between shots of Bachmann's much smaller turnout on 11/5, suggesting that her group had spilled out onto the Mall.
Journalistically a mortal sin, but in context the subterfuge was even worse, because Fox had been gaming Teabagger crowd sizes for months. Reliable crowd estimates for that earlier Tea Party of Beck's were around 70,000, though Beck and sympathizers willfully kept up a running dispute about police crowd counts, asserting at different times that there were 100,000, a million, 2 million (and counting!) protestors out there last September.
Hannity's film-flam probably would have gone unnoticed, adding yet another drop to the vast sea of fictions the rightwing media float upon, had not Jon Stewart's eagle-eyed staff found an oddity: In some of Hannity's clips verdant late summer greenery graced the November rally, while others were framed by the yellow and orange foliage of fall.
| The Daily Show With Jon Stewart | Mon - Thurs 11p / 10c | |||
| Sean Hannity Uses Glenn Beck's Protest Footage | ||||
| ||||
Whoops! On Wednesday night, wagging his lantern chin as if to say, "Go ahead, take a poke at me," Hannity delivered a classic nonapology apology:
What a goof! "We screwed up." He "played some incorrect video." It was an "inadverent mistake."
It's curious, though, how inventoried video can click its way into a night's news some two months later.
But let's say it did. Hannity sleazed right through his "Sorry, folks!" without ever owning up to what was so misleading about flashing shots of a large rally for a smaller one in the first place: That without injecting the 9/12 footage like silicon into a boob job, it would have been much clearer that he and Bachmann were wildly inflating crowd size. Or that, as Stewart said in his hilarious follow-up to Hannity's apology, a truly honest Fox News slogan would be: "We alter reality. You are sold a preconceived narrative."
The day before Sean's nothing apology, Michelle confessed a little something too, though not about crowd inflation. Instead, she had been forced to admit that it was "wholly inappropriate" to use images of naked corpses from Dachau to symbolize Obama's health care reform, as a poster lofted right in front of her throughout the rally did.
Bachmann's admission, however, came a full five days after her rally and only after Rep. Steve Israel (D-NY) embarrassed her in a YouTube video, saying, "I can't believe that Congresswoman Bachmann would stand where she stood, and see those images, and not have the common decency to say, 'I disagree with the use of those images.' I think that she owes the memory of those who perished in the Holocaust an apology." (Earlier and without a YouTube push, Minority Whip Eric Cantor, the House's only Jewish Republican, found it in himself, or rather in a spokesman, to call the sign "inappropiate.")
Of course, offensive posters, switcheroo video, and connivingly cropped quotes are nothing new, especially on Fox. Media Matters has assembled a small encyclopedia of Fox's cut-and-paste reality.
All this should make us consider the motive for the 50 or so townhall meetings that Republican lawmakers say they will sponsor this month. They obviously want to communicate the anger of astroturfized populism, but even more, they need a fresh supply of clips that can be sliced and diced into the rightwing noise machine.
But just as each Planet of the Apes sequel was worse than the previous one, the coming Townhall sequel (perhaps titled Townhall II: Escape from Obama's Tyranny) is likely to disappoint. After this round of apologies for overreaching, rightwing leaders are going to have to tell their people to go only a little bit crazy, maybe even to forfeit the Hitler mustaches. It's a difficult balance to strike; the tea parties may loose their cheery spontaneity.
And, though it may pain Sean Hannity, it may also become more difficult to lie about the size of crowds.
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Well, first...probably find few true Hannity supporters here...though naturally we'll get a lot of right-wingers who'll want to change the subject.
He's just TOO dopey for even most of them to handle...even Maasch/Jomama has said-
"Mask, I find him (Hannity) annoying in body language, personality, and in voice...I agree with many of his points but not his style of delivery... ....much like the neighbors annoying poodle constantly yapping and pawing on ones ankles..."----Posted by YourJomamma at 09/21/2009 @ 12:15pm
Media Blitz Continues As Obama Golfs 18 Holes With Tom Friedman posted by Ari Melber on 09/20/2009 @ 7:16pm
Second, Bachmann of course is a loon. She makes Sarah Palin look like William F. Buckley Jr. and Ann Coulter look like Jack Kemp.
My favorite thing on her is her tirades on how Americorps would become "re-education camps for kids"....and then HER OWN SON joined a subsidiary of Americorps!....LOL
Posted by Mask at 11/13/2009 @ 3:26pm
Typical!
When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize! Libs, of course, never make mistakes!
Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 4:01pm
Hey guys, Hannity may lie about the size of crowds at right-wing rallies (and a few other things), but you have to admit he invites better looking babes on his show to echo his viewpoints while all they can do over at MSNBC is invite smarter women to opine. If you want eye candy you watch Hannity. If you want information you watch another channel. You don't watch Hannity for facts. At least I don't. I doubt you do either.
Posted by dont_know at 11/13/2009 @ 4:21pm
"When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize!"
right (see: iraq, katrina, afghanistan, 9.11, torture, wiretapping, secret rendition, etc)
don't remember any apologies for any of the above....
Posted by darladoon at 11/13/2009 @ 4:23pm
"When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize! Libs, of course, never make mistakes!
Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 4:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person "
They didn't make a mistake, they got caught in a lie and didn't fess up until their chicanery was exposed!
Posted by brunowe at 11/13/2009 @ 4:23pm
republicans wrote a bill which contained abortion funding......but only omitted the funding when......a news blog pointed it out
yeah, only conservatives apologize.
Posted by darladoon at 11/13/2009 @ 4:34pm
The poster of the dead from Dachau is one of the most sickening and disrespectful signs I have ever seen. Just when I think these teapartiers can't do anything worse they top themselves. What a great country. Hey gunslinger1, how do you like your party now?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:56pm
When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize! Libs, of course, never make mistakes!
Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 4:01pm
But Hap, you've been bitching for 11 months that all Obama did on his overseas trips is apologize for America. He's a liberal apologizing for conservative mistakes.
Make up your mind - you can't have it happily both ways.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:57pm
A mistake, maybe, maybe not. Brings back memories of Dan Rather, a mistake, maybe, maybe not.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:30pm
A mistake, maybe, maybe not. Brings back memories of Dan Rather, a mistake, maybe, maybe not.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:30pm
Are you implying that a Producer and an Editor on Hannity's TV show could "accidentally" splice together footage from two different events and NOT know they were doing it? You obviously know NOTHING about editing....
Dan Rather's problem was that he didn't take the personal time to verify the story about W.'s service record. He had assistants to do that and evidently, they did it to Rather's satisfaction, so he went with the story. It was Rather's ego that got him, that he allowed his journalistic skills to take a back seat to the "hot" story. Please don't even try to compare Hannity to Rather. One of them had decades as a true journalist; the other is Hannity.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:41pm
Wasn't Rathers "mistake" that the paper was a copy and not the original or something like that? If I'm wrong (and I may be) I apoligize.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:45pm
Oops, "apologize".
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:48pm
"When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize!"
right (see: iraq, katrina, afghanistan, 9.11, torture, wiretapping, secret rendition, etc)
don't remember any apologies for any of the above....
Posted by darladoon at 11/13/2009 @ 4:23pm
Iraq-nothing to apologize for
Katrina-that was the fault of the Democratic Mayor and Governor
Afghanistan-nothing to apologize for
9/11-try blaming the terrorists nothing for conservatives to apologize for
torture-we don't and a few misfits in the military who did have been punished.
wiretapping-legal; nothing to apologize for
renditions-also legal and done by Clinton, Bush, and Obama
You didn't bring up a single issue that conservatives should find any need to apologize
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
The poster of the dead from Dachau is one of the most sickening and disrespectful signs I have ever seen. Just when I think these teapartiers can't do anything worse they top themselves. What a great country. Hey gunslinger1, how do you like your party now?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:56pm
I don't think I would have used it, but it certainly brings home the message of what may happen to America itself with Obama and the Democrats destroying the country
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:54pm
Jeez Anti, sanctimonius much? What, your side is the best thing since white bread? Your the preacher shouldn't you be even a little bit humble? Sigh.... .
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:56pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm |
You live in a warped reality that makes you the worst kind of danger to our republic...the ideological equivalent of an alzheimer's patient with an AK-47 and low blood-sugar.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:08pm
Anti, some things are sacred, and that poster should have never been used in such a way no matter who's side your on.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:13pm
Jeez Anti, sanctimonius much? What, your side is the best thing since white bread? Your the preacher shouldn't you be even a little bit humble? Sigh.... .
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 5:56pm
I've been railing against the dangers of modern liberalism for 50 years now. With the passage of time, the dangers have not subsided, they have increased through socialist incrementalism.
Unfortunately, I do not see the possibility of my grandchildren ever knowing the kind of liberty that I enjoyed. My children have experienced far less than I had and they too will never see the kind of liberty that I have enjoyed.
Writing about the passage of the constitution, Jefferson wrote
<"The natural progress of things is for liberty to yield and government to gain ground.">
Thomas Jefferson, letter to E. Carrington, May 27, 1788
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 6:13pm
Ya know Anti it takes two to tango, and for you to accuse the left and not the right is just stupid because in the "last fifty years" it was the left AND the right that caused the "less liberty" that you claim. Actually, I think the right has a lot to apologize for, they have screwed us royally.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:19pm
Unfortunately, I do not see the possibility of my grandchildren ever knowing the kind of liberty that I enjoyed. My children have experienced far less than I had and they too will never see the kind of liberty that I have enjoyed.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 6:13pm
Larry,
Could you specify the liberties that you have enjoyed that your children and grandchildren won't?
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:21pm
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:21pm | ignore this person |
The freedom not to be spied on by their own government comes to mind.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:26pm
Ya know Anti it takes two to tango, and for you to accuse the left and not the right is just stupid because in the "last fifty years" it was the left AND the right that caused the "less liberty" that you claim. Actually, I think the right has a lot to apologize for, they have screwed us royally.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:19pm
It was not the right that tried to take away the right of presidents to defend our national security
It was not the right that re-instituted slavery with the Great Society welfare programs
It was not the right that has tried to limit the right of Americans to choose to smoke or eat the foods of their choice, or go to the school of their choice.
It was not the right that believed that 50 million babies should be legally murdered
It was not the right that has stopped the right to buy health insurance across state lines (a violation of the commerce clause) in order to get cheaper price
It was not the right that said that property could be taken from individuals for corporate development (Kelo v New London)
It was not the right that put restrictions on attending college by implementing quotas
It was not the right that stopped energy indedendence in this country
It was not the right that felt that passing on your inheritance to your children and grandchildren was evil
It was not the right who has attempted to take children away from their parents if they home school them (tried by the left again in CA just a year ago).
It is the liberals who continually strip away our freedoms, not conservatives.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 6:29pm
It was not the right that tried to take away the right of presidents to defend our national security
++and when did the left do that? When they authorized Bush's illegal war in Iraq?
It was not the right that re-instituted slavery with the Great Society welfare programs
++melodrama again, Larry?
It was not the right that has tried to limit the right of Americans to choose to smoke or eat the foods of their choice, or go to the school of their choice.
++so slavery is bad, but segregation is good?
It was not the right that believed that 50 million babies should be legally murdered
++until today when the GOP took away that right from it's own female employees.
It was not the right that has stopped the right to buy health insurance across state lines (a violation of the commerce clause) in order to get cheaper price
++this is not a "liberty" and you know it.
It was not the right that said that property could be taken from individuals for corporate development (Kelo v New London)
++I agree with you on this one.
It was not the right that put restrictions on attending college by implementing quotas
++more people attend college than ever before. How is that "restricting?"
It was not the right that stopped energy indedendence in this country
++It was the Arabs. You know, Bandar Bush's family? They did it.
It was not the right that felt that passing on your inheritance to your children and grandchildren was evil
++"evil?" A little more melodrama, please.
It was not the right who has attempted to take children away from their parents if they home school them (tried by the left again in CA just a year ago).
++ can't comment. Don't know the issue. Sounds melodramatic.
I still question which of those is actually a "liberty" as defined by the Constitution.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:44pm
The Nation: investigative journalism now done by John Stewart (a comedian who could not get his own sit-com or succesful movie career).
To Stephen Carver: I am 45, in my lifetime what liberties have changed that I have enjoyed? Riding my motorcycle without a helmet, being able to fly without exposing my feet to every germ that 2000 people ahead of me left behind, being able to build (or have built) ON MY OWN PROPERTY without having to check with an "association", the ability to grow any legal crop on my own land, the knowledge that my children will not be given an abortion without my express consent, being able to defend myself physically without worrying about being sued, being able to spank (not beat) my misbehaving child in public, be able to send out pictures of my bathing infant child to relatives (or post online) without being prosecuted for child pornography, not having my car searched if I get pulled over for not having my seatbelt fastened, be able to express my first amendment rights without being slandered with a derogatory homosexual sex act, possesing a legal firearm as a legal law abiding citizen without having to ask permission first, be able to ask a political opinion from clergy, the ability to buy a 50 cal Barrett in CA, and so on...
Posted by theMage at 11/13/2009 @ 6:58pm
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/13/2009 @ 6:44pm
1.Attempts to restrict authority of presidents-Church Commission, WPA 1973, Boland Amendment to name 3
2.you're wrong on the commerce clause and health insurance-it violates specifically what Madison said the Commerce clause was intended to prevent
3.Affirmative action-quotas limited the choices of the best students in the name of political correctness
4.Energy independence-the left refuses to authorize new drilling in the continental US and Alaska
5.The estate tax is straight out of the communist manifesto and violates everything the constitution stands for
6.Home schooling cases
http://www.religiousliberty.info/blog/?p=74
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/fr/734891/posts
Stephen, you are this advocate of freedom of choice and you don't see these as restricting liberty?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 7:16pm
"9/11-try blaming the terrorists nothing for conservatives to apologize for"
bush received an intelligence briefing in early august titled "bin laden determined to strike inside the united states." bush ignored it. 3,000 people died.
"Katrina-that was the fault of the Democratic Mayor and Governor"
oh, sure.
"torture-we don't and a few misfits in the military who did have been punished"
way to gloss over that black hole of hell.
"It is the liberals who continually strip away our freedoms, not conservatives"
(quote of the day)
"wiretapping-legal; nothing to apologize for"
then why "retroactive immunity"?
Posted by darladoon at 11/13/2009 @ 7:37pm
"but it certainly brings home the message of what may happen to America itself with Obama and the Democrats destroying the country"
in larry's mind, history began on january 20, 2009.
Posted by darladoon at 11/13/2009 @ 7:39pm
How far will these people go to advance ultra-nationalist frenzy? They seem bent on artificially escalating these ideas generated in neo-con think tanks. It is just like European fascist propaganda tactics. It's not just about TV ratings, that much should be clear to everyone by now. The question is, when will those calling the shots take it to the next level? Or, have they already, and the sequence of events is arranged to play out over years, until the next presidential election? Either way, they are doing it, and there is nothing currently in place to stop it that I know of. I'm praying that there are responsible, real Americans at the reins in our halls of justice keeping records of this so-called movement. Then again, Yoo was an operative allowed inside our government and is directly involved with one of these front organizations. I think it's time to remember that our being the United States or not, democracy or not, no country is immune from falling to extremist corruption to absolute levels. It's our job as Americans to keep these elements under control by holding onto our values in the face of any foe. Make yourself heard loudly and often.
Posted by Milhaus at 11/13/2009 @ 7:50pm
antisocialist-The tired old my side is perfect and your sucks is what you posted..Both sides do that,but your side does take less responsibility.We're about the same age and I haven't noticed that we have less freedom now than when we were younger.That is particularly true for women and minorities.Have there been mistakes made?Yes.Aren't there always mistakes made when society undergoes major changes?Both sides have made them.That's the way life always is.In all societies it takes all to succeed or fail.The right is just as responsible for abortion,limiting choices when it comes to smoking,eating,etc. as is obvious from what goes on in the real world.You guys just talk personal responsibility,but never take any.That's because,like those on the left,you're human and humans like to avoid taking personal responsibility and blame the other side or someone else, like you just did.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/13/2009 @ 8:07pm
It doesn't surprise me in the least. I have watched Fox news for fun on occasion and have counted over 20 lies or misrepresentations in less than 5 minutes. Try it sometime. It's flabbergasting.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/13/2009 @ 8:52pm
Conservatives should be having ORGASMS right now, things are going so well for them:
--HAPPY says he's making money hand over fist, thanks to BHO;
--Halliburton, making money, you betcha;
--Palin back on the trail;
--wealth differentiation in America is at an all-time high--never has the gulf between rich and poor been wider since the unions have been effectively smashed, with membership and bargaining power at all-time lows, the middle class said membership once yielded is fading fast. The UAW alone has lost over half its historically high membership reached in 1979;
--their boys, Scalia, Alito, Thomas, Roberts, are now warming their respective benches;
--not ONE war, but TWO, and a President willing to carry on because he is in awe of a bunch of careerist generals, when he should be looking at firing some people--yippee.
whattabunchacrybabies.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/13/2009 @ 9:28pm
ASSCLOWNS!
Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/13/2009 @ 9:31pm
Iraq-nothing to apologize for
•• (CNN) -- The U.S. military did major damage to the site of one of the wonders of the ancient world while converting it into a base, the United Nations said in a new report.
The site of the Hanging Gardens of Babylon was converted into Camp Alpha shortly after the United States invaded Iraq in 2003.
The troops and their contractors caused "major damage" by digging, cutting, scraping and leveling while they were revamping the site to meet military standards, the U.N. cultural agency, UNESCO, said in a report.
"Key structures that were damaged include the Ishtar Gate and the Processional Way," the report added.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
Katrina-that was the fault of the Democratic Mayor and Governor
•• WASHINGTON � In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, risk lives in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage of the briefings.
Bush didn't ask a single question during the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck on Aug. 29 but assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
Afghanistan-nothing to apologize for
•• CBS) Jon Krakauer's newest book reveals how the Bush administration turned the friendly fire death of Pat Tillman in Afghanistan into a propaganda victory. "Where Men Win Glory: The Odyssey of Pat Tillman" follows the story of Tillman's life through his death at the hands of his platoon to the smoke and mirrors orchestrated by the Pentagon and White House, reports ABC News and the LA Times.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
9/11-try blaming the terrorists nothing for conservatives to apologize for
•• "Just like you kill us, we will kill you." usama bin laden.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
torture-we don't and a few misfits in the military who did have been punished.
•• Cassel: If the President deems that he's got to torture somebody, including by crushing the testicles of the person's child, there is no law that can stop him? Yoo: No treaty. Cassel: Also no law by Congress. That is what you wrote in the August 2002 memo. Yoo: I think it depends on why the President thinks he needs to do that.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
wiretapping-legal; nothing to apologize for
"While the N.S.A.'s operations in recent months have come under examination, new details are also emerging about earlier domestic-surveillance activities, including the agency's attempt to wiretap a member of Congress, without court approval, on an overseas trip, current and former intelligence officials said."
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
renditions-also legal and done by Clinton, Bush, and Obama
•• An Italian judge has convicted 23 Americans - all but one of them CIA agents - and two Italian secret agents for the 2003 kidnap of a Muslim cleric.
The agents were accused of abducting Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, from Milan and sending him to Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
You didn't bring up a single issue that conservatives should find any need to apologize
•• 1 The LORD abhors dishonest scales, but accurate weights are his delight.
2 When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom.
3 The integrity of the upright guides them, but the unfaithful are destroyed by their duplicity.
4 Wealth is worthless in the day of wrath, but righteousness delivers from death.
5 The righteousness of the blameless makes a straight way for them, but the wicked are brought down by their own wickedness.
6 The righteousness of the upright delivers them, but the unfaithful are trapped by evil desires.
7 When a wicked man dies, his hope perishes; all he expected from his power comes to nothing.
8 The righteous man is rescued from trouble, and it comes on the wicked instead.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
20 THE LORD DETESTS MEN OF PERVERSE HEART BUT HE DELIGHTS IN THOSE WHOSE WAYS ARE BLAMELESS.
21 BE SURE OF THIS: THE WICKED WILL NOT GO UNPUNISHED, BUT THOSE WHO ARE RIGHTEOUS WILL GO FREE.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
8 A man is praised according to his wisdom, but men with warped minds are despised.
you listening, larry?
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:46pm
Everything is the lefts fault to Larry. If it's not the left. It's the right being too liberal.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 11/13/2009 @ 10:10pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/13/2009 @ 8:07pm
Meant to express my thanks 3 days ago BTW
The right vs left myth is a very enticing one. Has us TN posters all bound up to varying degrees.
Opposite sides of same coin.
If you haven't please read Guns, Germs & Steel. Especially the history of first hominids crossing Berring Strait and populating the to be Americas.
Rugged individualism, sure. And so much more. Not all of our human qualities are so noble. This right-left juncture marks a very strange, very potent, higher rung wherein humans project much of their own undesirable elements on to the other tribe.
No one here ever takes me up on it, but the macro-developmental model, "Spiral Dynamics", is super informative. Nails, for ex., the Bradgelina-Happ-Anti-AynRanders and their treehugger-commie counterparts.
Posted by winyahn at 11/13/2009 @ 10:22pm
Santi-Not often do you get caught in a bald face lie but in the post on using the picture of Dachau you lost your "spiritual" cred. That comment was shameful and someone "spiritual" as you "claim" would never have made a comment as such.I don't think Pat"the religious businessman" would even sink to the level.You are a shameless ideologue. I say outlandish things and get too personal at times but that stepped over a line that you are not expert enough to travel down. You know have the good fortune to be lumped with Michelle. That is not an honor. Sleep on your statement and come back with new clarity in your thinking.
Posted by whatozz at 11/13/2009 @ 10:37pm
The right vs left myth is a very enticing one. Has us TN posters all bound up to varying degrees.
Opposite sides of same coin.
Posted by winyahn at 11/13/2009 @ 10:22pm
COKE! PEPSI!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 10:53pm
4.Energy independence-the left refuses to authorize new drilling in the continental US and Alaska
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 7:16pm
you're kidding, right?
that's impossible.
(psst, it was your hero, venal ronnie who put the offshore ban in...)
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 10:55pm
I've been railing against the dangers of modern liberalism for 50 years now.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 6:13pm
1- Which have you done more often?
A-Railed against the dangers of modern liberalism.
B-Pleasured yourself?
2- In 50 years, ever once A & B at same time?
Posted by winyahn at 11/13/2009 @ 11:04pm
The right vs left myth is a very enticing one. Has us TN posters all bound up to varying degrees.
Opposite sides of same coin.
If you haven't please read Guns, Germs & Steel. Especially the history of first hominids crossing Berring Strait and populating the to be Americas.
Rugged individualism, sure. And so much more. Not all of our human qualities are so noble. This right-left juncture marks a very strange, very potent, higher rung wherein humans project much of their own undesirable elements on to the other tribe.
Posted by winyahn at 11/13/2009
I would agree with you to the extent that the GOP and Democratic parties have developed a sort of symbiotic relationship.
It's like the one side either needs the other side to blame for something or one side needs the other to stop something from being accomplished, like healthcare.
Dems have had universal healthcare as part of the platform but now that it's in reach, their own are selling out. It was better when the GOP had the numbers to block healthcare reform, then the sellouts weren't exposed.
The GOP rails against abortion, yet when they had the numbers they did nothing. Abortion keeps asses in the seats for the righties.
Neither party needs to accomplish much to attract voters if they play up how bad the alternative is.
Posted by koroviev at 11/13/2009 @ 11:36pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 7:16pm
The world's largest supplies of oil are in the Gulf of Mexico and in Alaska, but they remain untapped because of environmental laws. Saudi Arabia has the world's largest oil production capacity, thanks also to environmental laws coupled with an irrational foreign policy of appeasement and accommodation with the Saudis and OPEC that dates back to the 1940's.
The brutal misogynistic theocratic dictatorship that runs Saudi Arabia has a friend in the left. Amazingly, the vile King Abdullah received a bow of submission from Obama even though he is a child molesting woman beater who beheads apostates. That we support this evil regime is pathetic. One could argue that free trade is a virtue and that damaging our economy in a futile attempt to liberate people we have not oppressed and who enjoy oppression is pathological, but why we should violate the economic rights of Americans in order to give a brutal backwards foreign dictatorship run by primitive savages an upper hand of leverage over us escapes me, particularly when this regime indoctrinates an endless stream of jihadists who plot to kill Americans and who have been implicated in the murder of thousands of them. That we not only trade with but allow this regime to dictate our foreign policy and threaten our security in addition to promising to prop it up militarily because we have artificially made ourselves economically dependent on its oil is Orwellian and ridiculous. Worst of all, while many liberals openly admit to admiring Saddam and supporting the Iranian Mullahs, liberals actually DO condemn the Saudi regime for its human rights violations simply because it is (allegedly) an ally of America. They do not realize that their policies prop it up.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 01:07am
But just as each Planet of the Apes sequel was worse than the previous one,
yeah, i noticed that a few years ago on an amc labor day ape-a-thon. the budgets got lower, the masks got stiffer... except for that one where the apes all went apeshit and escaped... just a slow downward spiral...
i didn't care much for the re-boot. ron pearlmen and some actress getting ready to have monkey sex kinda blew it for me, among other things...
Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/14/2009 @ 01:23am
Typical!
When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize! Libs, of course, never make mistakes!
Posted by Happy at 11/13/2009 @ 4:01pm
Is this serious?
Posted by pizzmoe at 11/14/2009 @ 01:27am
Iraq-nothing to apologize for
how Iraq is not considered a mistake/canard, one must be heavily divorced from reality.
Posted by kirquaker at 11/14/2009 @ 01:41am
While her initial splash into the public consciousness, when she made that idiotic remark on MSNBC about "Islamist terrorist sympatizers," or whatever, in Congress, was very unfortunate, Michelle Bachmann has otherwise operated as more-or-less a libertarian-style Republican ever since. By which I simply mean to say that I think its a little unfair to compare with a vicious neo-"conservative," war-mongering pig, FAUX "News" stooge like Sean Hannity.
Posted by KevinRiley at 11/14/2009 @ 03:25am
2- In 50 years, ever once A & B at same time? Posted by winyahn at 11/13/2009 @ 11:04pm |
It was wartime, son; you wouldn't understand.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 06:31am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 7:16pm |
So that's all you've got?!
They won't let me kill, poison, discriminate, keep assets that are easily sheltered, or keep my kids in a Waco-like excuse for eduhmihcation.
Pathetic.
Will your next complaint be that you are being deprived of the freedom to operate your plantation as you see fit?
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 06:50am
It is difficult to speak truth to those who "choose" to be idiots, but when it comes to the left there is little choice! This was a good example;
"It's somewhat disconcerting, but the Obama administration continues to dance around the terrorism question. While a new Rasmussen poll shows 60 percent of Americans want the Fort Hood massacre investigated as a terrorist act, the president sees the mass murder as a "tragedy" and a violent crime. He told ABC News: "In a country of 300 million people, there are going to be acts of violence that are inexplicable." But Fort Hood is not one of them.
When a man e-mails an al-Qaida recruiter in Yemen 20 times, and then yells "Allahu Akbar" (God is greatest) while gunning down innocent people, the math is on the blackboard: Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan is a terrorist. And he is now charged with murdering 13 people. So why does President Obama have a problem accepting that?
The answer was given last February when Obama told CNN: "I think it is very important for us to recognize that we have a battle or a war against some terrorist organizations, but that those organizations aren't representative of a broader Arab community, Muslim community.
"I believe we can win over moderate Muslims to recognize that that kind of destruction and nihilism ultimately leads to a dead end."
And so the president has dictated that the phrase "war on terror" be replaced with "overseas contingency operations," whatever that means. But what if the terrorist activity is not overseas? What if it happens in Texas? Well, then Obama says it is "a crime against our nation." Notice the word "crime."
Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:15am
I'm not one to nitpick, but this is important. Technically speaking, the slaughter of human beings at Fort Hood was a crime. But the motive was born out of jihad, the Muslim holy war. So if you want to be honest about it, the Fort Hood massacre was an act of terror against unarmed American citizen soldiers!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:16am
As a Minnesotan who lives 5 miles from Michelle's district it is amazing to me what comes out of her mouth.Her lack of logic comes through in her public statements. We as a society live in a constant beauty pageant mode. We hope that someone like Sarah or Michelle can talk and chew gum at the same time.If so we can vote them into office.Then we give them 60 chances to make sense before we toss them into the ditch.Well, Sarah and Michelle have both used up their 60,let's throw them in the ditch. Hannity,he's a cue card guy with no sizzle. He is a member of the team that knows his role.
Posted by whatozz at 11/14/2009 @ 08:30am
Congresswoman Michele Bachmann is the first Republican woman to be elected to the U.S. House of Representatives from Minnesota. In only her first term, Congresswoman Bachmann developed a reputation as a "principled reformer" who stays true to her conservative beliefs while pushing for real reform of the broken ways of Washington. And, her strong advocacy for her constituents earned her a second term in Congress in November 2008.
She is a leading advocate for bipartisan earmark reform and tax relief and is a staunch opponent of wasteful government spending. She is among the leaders in the U.S. House pushing for increased energy exploration in the U.S. to provide much needed relief at the pump for hard-working Americans and put our nation on the path to energy independence.
Prior to serving in the U.S. Congress, Bachmann served in the Minnesota State Senate. She was elected to the Minnesota State Senate in 2000 where she championed the Taxpayers Bill of Rights. And, prior to that, Bachmann spent five years as a federal tax litigation attorney, working on hundreds of civil and criminal cases. That experience solidified Bachmann's strong support for efforts to simplify the Tax Code and reduce tax burdens on family and small business budgets.
Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:43am
Congresswoman Bachmann currently sits on the Financial Services Committee. This committee is tasked with the oversight of numerous financial sectors including housing, real estate and banking. This also gives the Congresswoman keen insight into the housing crisis and credit crunch, leading her to be a staunch opponent of the taxpayer-funded bailout of Wall Street. The 6th Congressional District of Minnesota contains parts of six counties, stretching from Stillwater past St. Cloud, including suburbs of the Twin Cities, which encompasses one of the nation's largest financial services sectors, making Congresswoman Bachmann's position on the Financial Services Committee particularly important.
Congresswoman Bachmann is a graduate of Anoka High School and Winona State University. Bachmann and her husband, Marcus, live in Stillwater where they own a small business mental health care practice that employs 42 people. The Bachmanns have five children, Lucas, Harrison, Elisa, Caroline, and Sophia. In addition, the Bachmanns have opened their home to 23 foster children, which has inspired Congresswoman Bachmann to become one of Congress' leading advocates for foster and adopted children, earning her bipartisan praise for her efforts.
Hmmm.... yea it is easy to see why the leftist marxist hate smart, well educated , compassionate, out spoken, conservative, and moral women of the right!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:46am
Posted by whatozz at 11/14/2009 @ 08:30am
Since you live in the area maybe you can enlighten me. Exactly who are the people that are voting for this miscreant? I have wondered about that often. She is so obviously a fruitcake that I really don't get it. Is their something in the water in that part of Minnesota?
My fathers side of the family emigrated to that area of Minnesota from Germany. I don't keep in touch with that group, but I would shudder at the possibility that I might somehow be related..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 08:55am
small business mental health care practice Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:46am
Your kidding right? A mental health care practice? You mean the Bachmann's minister to other's who are mentally ill also?
Ya just can't make that kind of stuff up. Reality is always jucier than fiction.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 09:02am
Katrina-that was the fault of the Democratic Mayor and Governor
•• WASHINGTON � In dramatic and sometimes agonizing terms, federal disaster officials warned President Bush and his homeland security chief before Hurricane Katrina struck that the storm could breach levees, risk lives in New Orleans' Superdome and overwhelm rescuers, according to confidential video footage of the briefings.
Bush didn't ask a single question during the final government-wide briefing the day before Katrina struck on Aug. 29 but assured soon-to-be-battered state officials: "We are fully prepared."
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
First responsibility is state and local govts-see constitution
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:18am
renditions-also legal and done by Clinton, Bush, and Obama
•• An Italian judge has convicted 23 Americans - all but one of them CIA agents - and two Italian secret agents for the 2003 kidnap of a Muslim cleric.
The agents were accused of abducting Hassan Mustafa Osama Nasr, known as Abu Omar, from Milan and sending him to Egypt, where he was allegedly tortured.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
who cares what an Italian judge thinks?
I don't
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:19am
9/11-try blaming the terrorists nothing for conservatives to apologize for
•• "Just like you kill us, we will kill you." usama bin laden.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 5:52pm
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/13/2009 @ 9:42pm
You're nuts FZ-we all know you love terrorists and hate Americans
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:20am
Santi-Not often do you get caught in a bald face lie but in the post on using the picture of Dachau you lost your "spiritual" cred. That comment was shameful and someone "spiritual" as you "claim" would never have made a comment as such.I don't think Pat"the religious businessman" would even sink to the level.You are a shameless ideologue. I say outlandish things and get too personal at times but that stepped over a line that you are not expert enough to travel down. You know have the good fortune to be lumped with Michelle. That is not an honor. Sleep on your statement and come back with new clarity in your thinking.
Posted by whatozz at 11/13/2009 @ 10:37pm
I did sleep on it and I am convinced that it portrays the spiritual death of America brought about by liberalism.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:22am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/13/2009 @ 7:16pm |
So that's all you've got?!
They won't let me kill, poison, discriminate, keep assets that are easily sheltered, or keep my kids in a Waco-like excuse for eduhmihcation.
Pathetic.
Will your next complaint be that you are being deprived of the freedom to operate your plantation as you see fit?
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 06:50am
thanks for making it clear just how much you hate liberty and personal freedom comrade snowball. Stalin would have loved you
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:26am
'antisocialist' = antibrain.
Posted by LarryB at 11/14/2009 @ 09:33am
'antisocialist' = antibrain.
Posted by LarryB at 11/14/2009 @ 09:33am
poor liberals-they have dyslexia when it comes to cognitive thinking.
It requires thinking to be a conservative
To be a liberal all you have to do is worship the govt.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:44am
'antisocialist' = antibrain.
Posted by LarryB at 11/14/2009 @ 09:33am
poor liberals-they have dyslexia when it comes to cognitive thinking.
It requires thinking to be a conservative
To be a liberal all you have to do is worship the govt.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:44am
addendum to liberalism-plus you have to be willing to surrender your rights to be an individual with personal responsibility for yourself.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:00am
To be a liberal all you have to do is worship the govt.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:44am
Did you conveniently forget that in a representative democratic republic we are the Government? Or at least we are supposed to be. Granted, in the last 30 years or so that has become somewhat of a sick joke.
But nevertheless the Constitution that you pretend to speak so highly of starts out with "We the People" and from Lincolns Gettysburg Address "...and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.."
So on the one hand you extole the U.S. Constitution and then on the other hand, like in the assinine statement above, you express disdain for Liberals who worship government. I would balk at the word "worship", but still even you must see the contradiction in you position.
You hate the U.S. Government. The very thing thing that defines this country. Because the people are the government. So you not only hate the government but by logical progression you also hate the American People.
How does that make you any different from a terrorist?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 10:13am
IN DEFENCE OF LIBERALISM Beyond right-wing misrepresentation, liberals must stand firm, proudly practicing and defending their humanizing beliefs. Liberals, especially from the Reagan era, have been fighting shy as the right wrongly equates liberalism to "socialism." From the prescriptions' of right-wing conservatives, Jesus (their avowed spiritual mentor) must be "socialist. After all, he was an advocate of social justice, emphasized basic equality, condemned the hypocrisy of powerful and stressed the need to protect, help and support the poor. These are things liberals do. There is nothing to be ashamed of or to be defensive about. Today, liberalism is becoming simply a tool for defending the rights and gains of the middle class. Many liberals retreat when mocked by conservatives for their "political correctness." A genuine liberal must have a fundamental belief that what he is doing is right and should not cower away in guilt when challenged by the uncaring Neanderthals of this world. They must remember Christ's statement about Judgment Day: "I was hungry and you gave me food, I was naked and you clothed me, I was in prison, and you visited me." Liberals should not see liberalism as an inconvenient belief fit to be practiced in a closet. As for me, count me in as an unabashed liberal. It is simply the right thing to do. What we do for others is indeed immortal as the sage had said. No apologies, please! God be the judge of the true enemies of humanity. Dr. Sam
Posted by drsam8 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:34am
You hate the U.S. Government. The very thing thing that defines this country. Because the people are the government. So you not only hate the government but by logical progression you also hate the American People.
How does that make you any different from a terrorist?
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 10:13am
As usual you have it backwards.
I want the govt to function as the constituion dictates. It is an enumerated constitution which limits the powers of the Federal govt and reserves most of the power and authority to the states and the people respectively.
You however want to usurp the constitution and place all of the power in the Federal govt.
THAT IS TYRANNY
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:34am
No apologies, please! God be the judge of the true enemies of humanity. Dr. Sam
Posted by drsam8 at 11/14/2009 @ 10:34am
Don't try and insert Christ as the justification for your socialism
Matthew 25 that you quote is about the responsibility of the INDIVIDUAL NOT GOVT to reflect Christ's love working in and through the believer. Unless you are advocating a theocracy, that is not possible as you suggest with govt.
conservative Christians indeed not only believe those words, but practice them daily in this country. Feeding the hungry, visiting those in prison, clothing the naked.
You make a false argument.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:38am
Well I can address Santi and Big Pissture. Michelle is an embarassment to my state. athers.Michelle's biggest problem is her mouth runs and her brain stops. Investigate members of Congress and their un-American activities. That was Michelle before the last election. She is part of our beauty pageant mentality. We hope good looking women can talk and speak and let's vote for them.She and Sarah Palin are from the same mold.Can you say Carrie Prejean?I don't care what committees she serves on if she looked like Janet Reno you would never have known her name.She ran for Congress after being tossed off the board of a charter school for religious reasons. Thanks for the help on her District's boundaries,Biggy. As a 50 year resident of the area I didn't need your help. Glad you have read the family biography though. That led you to her qualifications for increased oil exploration.It also explains how this moral woman that could easily equate the killing of 6 million Jews and health care reform.Or do you think she couldn't see the sign right in front of her. Santi -Your fellow anti Muslim gave your viewpoint. He killed because he was a Muslim. What a short sighted outlook on life. Is it really which God or prophet who is worshipped that is important in this life?You have lost what spiritual rudder you had. It doesn't come out of a book ,it comes out of your soul.You are so consumed by a term you have managed to lose your soul.Look around a crowded room in your town. Do you become troubled if you see bearded men with beards?How about yellow skinned women with dark hair? What troubles me is that you love to trumpet our Constitution and our Founding Fathers.At the same time religious freedom takes a hike in your world.No one expects the Spanish Inquisition.That is what you espouse
Posted by whatozz at 11/14/2009 @ 10:44am
"I want the govt to function as the constituion dictates"
the constitution does not prohibit the government from providing healthcare.
anti's is a fringe view, that even many conservatives have rejected.
Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 10:51am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:26am |
Stalin would have sent me to a gulag to die, you pompous twit.
The things you consider to be 'liberty' and, more importantly, the things you leave out, speak volumes.
I don't hate personal freedom, until it takes freedom from another.
What 'freedom' is guaranteed to me by allowing a president to order the assassination of Allende over a copper mine?
I agree mandated insurance DOES violate the commerce clause, but that's a fixable problem in legislation that hasn't passed.
If its okay to tax me to pay you to make clusterbombs then its okay to tax you to subsidize healthcare.
When your 'right to discriminate' interferes with minority access to education, something has to give.
What 'liberty' am I conceding to ANWR that isn't offset by my liberty to enjoy an unpolluted environment...especially in the face of superior alternatives?
Why complain about the estate tax when it is avoidable with simple preparation?
Why are the 'liberties' of backwards ass parents more important than the rights of their children to receive a decent education despite their parents refusal to provide same?
You want to fight for liberties? Here are some:
- Restore the 1st and 4th amendments and stop spying on Americans, especially in jail talking to their attorneys or in their churches
- Stop jailing people indefinitely without charge
- Let everyone convicted of victimless crimes out of jail now
- Eliminate tax-free status for politically active churches (no healthcare for us, no free ride for you)
- Get rid of interpreting money as speech so we can take our government back from these misguided playboys
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 11:16am
You make a false argument. Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:38am |
Explain the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, Anti.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 11:18am
"Eliminate tax-free status for politically active churches (no healthcare for us, no free ride for you)"
esp when they are inserting anti-choice language into the HC bill.
Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 11:19am
antisocialist-As always,your humble Christian self is on here glorifying yourself.Yours and other conservative responses to posts show that conservatives do not think.Every time you claimed that my post showed ignorance of Christianity I wasn't even posting about Christianity,but was giving my take on teachings.I never could figure how I was showing ignorance about a subject I wasn't even posting about.You put no thought into Palin risking her unborn childs life and knee jerk reacted to her like all the other older males.The reason no one can tell the difference between Christians and non Christians and the left and right in the real world is because we're all humans who sometimes think and sometimes knee jerk react.We humans do the same things and act the same way regardless of religion or politics.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/14/2009 @ 11:33am
The poster of the dead from Dachau is one of the most sickening and disrespectful signs I have ever seen. Just when I think these teapartiers can't do anything worse they top themselves. What a great country. Hey gunslinger1, how do you like your party now?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:56pm
If that's one of the worst you've seen, then I don't think you've been looking hard enough.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/
I warn you. Some of those are graphic. Or at least...unpleasant to the eyes.
And as you look at the pictures, take a momement to wonder at all the revenue lost with all these people marching and protesting rather than patronizing the local pottery barns, alternative bookstores, world music cd shops, and sidewalk pita wrap cafes.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 11:34am
The poster of the dead from Dachau is one of the most sickening and disrespectful signs I have ever seen. Just when I think these teapartiers can't do anything worse they top themselves. What a great country. Hey gunslinger1, how do you like your party now?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/13/2009 @ 4:56pm
If that's one of the worst you've seen, then I don't think you've been looking hard enough.
http://www.zombietime.com/hall_of_shame/
I warn you. Some of those are graphic. Or at least...unpleasant to the eyes.
And as you look at the pictures, take a momement to wonder at all the revenue lost with all these people marching and protesting rather than patronizing the local pottery barns, alternative bookstores, world music cd shops, and sidewalk pita wrap cafes.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 11:34am
I want the govt to function as the constituion dictates. Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:34am
Anti, you want the government to function as you dictate. Now that is tyranny. The definition of Tyranny is the rule of an absolute ruler. A dictator. In a representaive democracy that is functioning correctly the people decide the rules of the game. The people decide who represents them. The people decide in which direction the country goes with their vote.
The problem is that certain minority's of people want to usurp the power of the people to decide in which direction this country goes. That is what happens with corporate fascism. So much money and power is concentrated in the hands of so few people, that this minority is able to seize control of government. That is why the right is constantly assailing government power and attempting to silence the voice of the people.
Smaller and less powerful government allows the ruling elite to rule as tyrants.
You support this minority. Why? I can't figure that out. You don't even seem to be a member.
You are not the rich elite, so why do you support them? They are the ones that are taking away your freedoms and your independence. They are the one's who wish to rule you through tyranny. Not me.
Not the likes of me. I'm just a Truck Driver. And an American who seeks an egalitarian society. I fight for what is in my best interests. I would suggest you do the same.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 11:40am
WHAT THE PREACHING LIAR R-E-A-L-L-Y MEANS:
"conservative...s indeed not only believe those words, but practice them daily in this country. Feeding the hungry EMPTY DOGMAS THAT THEY HAVE NO INTENTION OF FOLLOWING THEMSELVES, DAVID "JOHN" VITTER-STYLE, PUTTING those THEY DISAGRRE WITH in prison LIKE DON SIEGELMANN, clothing the naked STATUES, IN VINTAGE FREAKAZOID ASHCROFT-STYLE, WHILE AL-QEADA IS READY FOR MASS MURDER.
You make a false argument."
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 10:38am
Just when you thought he had reached absolute zero as a human being, ANTISOCIAL's mental health has clearly taken a further dire turn with his defense of the sickening and sicko Dachau death camp poster. Sick sick siiicckkkk stuff.
But no pity must be allocated to him. NONE! ANTISOCIAL and his ilk are the hate-filled internal enemies of America who will utter & act out on any falsehood as long as these scummy disgruntled losers think that it can harm our nation. ANTI's non-stop lying about what he really is can be smoked out of its cave with as little as one question:
ANTI, as you are always pompously self-promoting yourself as a "libertarain" explain why the policiticans whom you relfexively rim (Dick "9/11" Cheney, George W "Hell No! I'm Too Rich to Go!" MaleCheerleadingPrepSchoolFag, Joe McCarthy, Sharia Sarah Palin) are the most foam-at-the-mouth wildly rapid statists -- while you scorn the authentic liberatarian item like Ron Paul???
Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 11/14/2009 @ 11:41am
hey citizen-carrier,
there is no equivalence between the dachau poster (which appeared RIGHT IN FRONT OF THE PODIUM ON THE CAPITOL STEPS).....and these random images from various protests in the bay area.
the protest on the capitol steps was SPONSORED BY BACHMANN. and there were only a few thousand people there. and that poster was prominently displayed right in front of the podium.
these bay area protests were marches, weren't sponsored by any democratic politicians, and weren't on the capitol steps, in front of the national news media.
granted, there are some really stupid posters from the bay area......but so what?
Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 11:59am
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 11:34am
Have you ever been to Mardi Gras? That site you posted with all the "unpleasant" photo's would pale in comparison. LOL.
The left also has a variety of loonies. Believe me, I know. But be that as it may at least our loonies don't take themselves that seriously, as the right does.
But to portray that element as representative of the left as a whole is a big mistake. The problem with the fascist right is that the entire movement is full of loonies. The right makes a point out of eliminating moderate Republicans to ensure that their constituency consists of nothing but loonies. Just check out the recent purge on the right to further alienate the party from the mainstream.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
"When your 'right to discriminate' interferes with minority access to education, something has to give."
You do realize that because Asians are so much more successful in academia and have on average such higher IQs than other groups; liberals have instituted quotas on the number of Asians that can have access to higher education so that standards can be lowered for blacks and Hispanics, right?
To which you reply: "Obviously, the greater success of Asians is proof that other groups are victim of a sinister oppression!"
In true capitalism, unyielding racial discrimination is pathological and will ruin your business, if you accept that individuals from all ethnic groups have the capacity to contribute and excel in all fields (which radical liberal racists of course do not).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 12:30pm
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 11:34am |
Okay, the scrotal inflator guy wasn't good for my appetite, but I'm pretty sure that was self-induced.
The 'outlaw heterosexuality' poster from the presumably 'mo person at the pro-life protest was delightfully ironic.
The guy on the beach with an 'Impeach' sticker looked like he was merely in a happy place.
Not a single one was nearly as disturbing to the senses as what Batshit Bachmann had at her rally.
I'll take live, politically engaged naked people over stacked dead ones 7 days a week.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 12:34pm
citizen_carrier, So your pictures beat the picture of Dachau? This is not a contest, what that idiot carried was disgusting, and you thinking that showing me worse pictures is not going to change that.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/14/2009 @ 12:50pm
P.S. Stupidity comes in all shapes, colors and sizes.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/14/2009 @ 1:01pm
My question to the people who support or shrug off the significance of the Dachau picture.Do you really know about the network of camps the Nazis had?Do you know how many people,cultures,religions,and lifestyles were extinguished in the camps. Thanks for the fear mongering Michelle,the political comparison of 10 months of opposition party rule,and the accompanying mental strain it has put upon you. Just think,we were attacked by terrorists 8 years ago. Over the years we have captured some of the principles in our war on terror. We have imprisoned them on foreign soil without the due process of law. Now a few of these criminals are to be tried in New York where the crime against us occurred.Why are conservatives against this? What is the danger in doing this?Why can't a court in New York find them guilty?What army do they represent? This is how are current society is looking at things. From one perspective on the bank of the Hudson river to my perspective from the banks of the Mississippi.
Posted by whatozz at 11/14/2009 @ 1:16pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 12:30pm
Let us know when you and Milty get your 'True Capitalism' off of academic pages.
We live in this world...where we practiced first slavery and then apartheid for decades in the open...then underground for a few more.
I have every reason to believe that minorities can succeed on their own merits, but simply 'trusting' institutions to recognize that and admit them on same? Not any time soon.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 1:24pm
We live in this world...where we practiced first slavery and then apartheid for decades in the open...then underground for a few more. Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 1:24pm
This country was unfortunately founded in large part on slavery and genocide. That is something that will haunt the history and people of our country forever. And that is a hard pill to swallow. But until we officially recognize these horrible mistakes of the past and make some effort to right these wrongs, we will never be able to move past them.
The problem is that we continue, as a people to rack up more karmic debt as we go along due to capiltalist imperialism. We seem to compound the mistakes of the past instead of making an earnest effort to right them and excercise due penance for past sins.
This is a recipe for disaster. We cannot change the past, but we can direct the future in such a way that allows us to confess our past transgressions against humanity and grow in a new direction.
Hope runs eternal, but reality is a bitch.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 1:51pm
Yes, it is the hypochondriac right that is obsessed by national security in detriment of the well-being of the citizens.
It is the right that is continuing the de-facto slavery of African and Latino citizens by paying them salaries of misery and over looking at them when they are more qualified than their counterparts so that the vast majority are de facto 2nd class citizens.
It is the right that invites Americans to a massive suicide (for profit) by encouraging smoking, eating fats, and living with weapons that cause tragedies almost every month in this nation, like the last one...yeah, the right.
It is the right that always opposed abortion be a clear and legal medical procedure so that a desperate 15 year old could get counsel from real professionals instead of dumping her into illegality...the right.
It is the right that is defending with every teeth the right for health insurance companies to charge individuals outrageous amounts of money, and to deny coverage...the right.
It is the right that always backs corporations against plain Americans: Halliburton, Blackwater, Exxon-Mobil, bankrupt banks, and health insurance companies...the right.
It is the right that has adamantly opposed schools and colleges to be all-inclusive so that some day every one will have the same opportunities.
It is the right that opposes alternative uses of energy that will last for many years instead of polluting and fattening the wallets of the oil corporations.
It is the right (read upper classes)'s selfishness on paying taxes that obliges to the inheritance tax, reason that USA is not like Europe and their royalties...the selfish, "Christian" right.
It is the right that wants to create the illusion of freedom, but only imitates the Roman Empire: some nobles, lot of slaves.
Posted by Frank42 at 11/14/2009 @ 2:49pm
What do you want me to say? That the Dachau picture was inappropriate?
Okay. It was. See? Easy.
There seems to be some sort of expectation that I or somebody defend that picture because "my side" put it up.
"But to portray that element as representative of the left as a whole is a big mistake. The problem with the fascist right is that the entire movement is full of loonies. The right makes a point out of eliminating moderate Republicans to ensure that their constituency consists of nothing but loonies."
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
What a classic post. First, scold for painting an entire group with too broad a brush, then turn around in the next paragraph and paint with a broad brush.
Did you folks miss the picture on that link that had the mother showing her 4-year-old daughter how to throw firebombs at police cars? Did you notice that one?
Or the signs where protestors were actually rooting for the intolerant, religious fundamentalists "insurgents" in Iraq? The ones blowing up their fellow Iraqi citizens or Arabs?
There's a word for people like that, and it makes people who want Obama to "fail" in his policies pale in comparison.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 2:50pm
What do you want me to say? That the Dachau picture was inappropriate?
Okay. It was. See? Easy.
There seems to be some sort of expectation that I or somebody defend that picture because "my side" put it up.
"But to portray that element as representative of the left as a whole is a big mistake. The problem with the fascist right is that the entire movement is full of loonies. The right makes a point out of eliminating moderate Republicans to ensure that their constituency consists of nothing but loonies."
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 12:20pm
What a classic post. First, scold for painting an entire group with too broad a brush, then turn around in the next paragraph and paint with a broad brush.
Did you folks miss the picture on that link that had the mother showing her 4-year-old daughter how to throw firebombs at police cars? Did you notice that one?
Or the signs where protestors were actually rooting for the intolerant, religious fundamentalists "insurgents" in Iraq? The ones blowing up their fellow Iraqi citizens or Arabs?
There's a word for people like that, and it makes people who want Obama to "fail" in his policies pale in comparison.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 2:50pm
What a classic post. First, scold for painting an entire group with too broad a brush, then turn around in the next paragraph and paint with a broad brush. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/14/2009 @ 2:50pm
In reality, I painted with a very narrow sharp brush, like a bamboo or skript liner brush. I spoke about the "fascist right". Which are not representative of true Republicans like Eisenhower, who by todays standards would be considered a flat out flaming socialist liberal.
The current examples of the "Right" like Sarah Palin, John Boehner, Limbaugh, Hannity, Beck, Bachmann and others to onerous to mention represent an entirely different animal. They are feeding on the ignorance and anger of people who know something is wrong, but don't know who to blame.
The remaining few true Republicans are being systematically purged from the party.
This new breed is utilizing fear and disinformation in order to serve their corporate masters. They should all be tried as the real terrorists.
I would love to see a resurgence of the GOP in it's true form. True Republicans need to take back their Party.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 3:44pm
"It is the right that invites Americans to a massive suicide (for profit) by encouraging smoking, eating fats, and living with weapons that cause tragedies almost every month in this nation, like the last one...yeah, the right."
Yes, citizens who obey the law should be deprived of guns under the law, so that only criminals have guns. Brilliant!
I'm adamantly opposed to the Drug War, but if you are in favor of coercively having the government take action to try and regulate the lifestyle choices of individuals when their actions cause no harm to anyone else (unless you're forced by the government to pay for the consequences of their actions), then I must assume you are a "liberal" who supports the War on Drugs. It's not surprising, giving the obssessive need to control others that animates the left's repressive code of ethics.
"It is the right that is defending with every teeth the right for health insurance companies to charge individuals outrageous amounts of money, and to deny coverage...the right."
Delusional. You think companies arbritrarily raise prices on goods just to make more money. If a company actually did this, it would go out of business or be forced to back down fairly quickly. You remind me of a quote from an essay about the average liberal: "...After leaving the mall, he pulls into a gas station and fills up his SUV with Premium gas. He smiles, remembering with satisfaction an op-ed he published a month ago denouncing oil company profits and complaining about high gasoline prices. A month ago, gas had been $3.05 a gallon. Today, it is $2.35. John Q. Liberal has no real idea why the price went down..."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:01pm
"...It doesn't occur to him that it may have had something to do with the fact that he--and a lot of other people--had stopped buying so much gasoline. If anybody asks him, he'll say it was because of his op-ed."
Two important points must be made. First, inflation is literally what happens when liberals print money to finance unsustainable welfare programs. Second, every dollar spent on universal health care is a dollar taken out of the free market that would have been spent more efficiently had the government not stolen it. People more efficiently spend money when it is their OWN money, as opposed to money taken from others. As universal healthcare will never increase and possibly will decrease supply while artificially inflating demand, it will only increase prices and demand rationing as a basic economic reality.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:08pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:01pm
Your nic "rightwingnutcase" is most certainly apropos. The only other word that was even close to being cogent was "Delusional".
And that particular word describes you to a "T"..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 4:12pm
"and to deny coverage"
You have no right to the goods or services produced by the toil of another man. You have the right to see a doctor and to exchange voluntarily values with him in order to receive his services, but you may not force him to give you his services without offering him something in return, you selfish parasite.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:12pm
First responsibility is state and local govts-see constitution
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:18am
no, the first responsibility is of those who can.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:13pm
who cares what an Italian judge thinks? I don't
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:19am |
you'll care what st. peter thinks.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:14pm
You're nuts FZ-we all know you love terrorists and hate Americans
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 09:20am
sure thing, larry.
can't you see that what goes around comes around?
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:15pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:08pm
cool, larry can have a bunk mate in hell.
good work, viceroy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:17pm
"It is the right that has adamantly opposed schools and colleges to be all-inclusive so that some day every one will have the same opportunities."
Whites and Asians are actively racially discriminated against in academia thanks to left liberal policies. Blacks and Hispanics have standards lowered dramatically for them.
Even with these handicaps, blacks and Hispanics are still so unsuccessful that liberals argue that we aren't racially discriminating ENOUGH. It never occurs to them that their policies may actually be a primary factor in this, by taking away all incentive for blacks and Hispanics to try hard and show serious effort.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:18pm
"It is the right that is continuing the de-facto slavery of African and Latino citizens"
It is actually frightening just how far out of touch with reality you are.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:21pm
"This new breed is utilizing fear and disinformation in order to serve their corporate masters"
Want to get money out of politics?
Get politics out of money.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:24pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:18pm |
You must be Larry's protege. But not nearly as defined.
Your lack of finesse reveals your immaturity.
You just come off as a bumbling bigot. With none of the sophistication of your totally abased mentors.
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 4:29pm
you'll care what st. peter thinks.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:14pm
the apostle Peter has nothing to do with my acceptance by Christ. I come before Christ the same way as he and all other believers.
You are presenting a Catholic doctrine that has no biblical authority
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 4:42pm
Posted by dont_know at 11/13/2009 @ 4:21pm
I guess you don't have any women in your family who are beautiful and intelligent nor do you have any female friends who are both beautiful and intelligent. I have both. Maybe you're traveling in the wrong circles.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/14/2009 @ 4:54pm
Get politics out of money.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:24pm
What money? We are a bankrupt country. Those greenbacks you have in your pocket are actually backed by the chinese yuan, and in fact are just a version of it. The chinese yuan is the most undervalued currency on the planet. And the reason for that is that China buys dollars and sells bonds to Chinese investors. It loses money on these "sterilized" bonds by selling them at 4 per cent interest and then uses this revenue to buy U.S. treasury bonds that are paying less than 2%. It helps to finance U.S. trade and budget deficits. and keeps U.S. interest rates low. China accepts these losses as a small price to pay for creating new jobs in Chinese export business.
Get politics out of money??? Fuck, you're an idiot..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 4:55pm
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 4:42pm
you and the viceroy are gonna be such good friends!
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 4:56pm
Say what you want about capitalism but I just finished another book about the Holocaust and believe me, there is no room in this country for socialism.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/14/2009 @ 4:58pm
Say what you want about capitalism but I just finished another book about the Holocaust and believe me, there is no room in this country for socialism.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/14/2009 @ 4:58pm
Hang up the gun there slinger. Totally inane statements like that really don't wash here. They just make you look bad..
Posted by chaoszen at 11/14/2009 @ 5:02pm
"People more efficiently spend money when it is their OWN money"
this makes absolutely no sense. when you say "efficiently," you have to define it. it depends on what you get in return.
as for one example. americans spend more on healthcare than any other country, and yet get less in return. all objective analysis supports this claim.
Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 5:04pm
Sure, Darla. Socialist healthcare really WOULD be better than our current fascist system.
Laissez-faire capitalism is the best system, however.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:09pm
"Get politics out of money??? Fuck, you're an idiot.."
You're an inane, inarticulate illiterate incapable of eloquence. You know nothing-- absolutely nothing-- about economics.
If the actions of politicians were completely divorced from the economy, there would be no corporate lobbies. America is not a capitalist nation, and never has been.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:15pm
Get politics out of money.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 4:24pm
welcome to earth, viceroy.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:17pm
"Technically speaking, the slaughter of human beings at Fort Hood was a crime. But the motive was born out of jihad, the Muslim holy war."
Posted by BigPasture at 11/14/2009 @ 08:16am
Wow. BigP supports hate crime legislation. Who'da thought?
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 5:20pm
Laissez-faire capitalism is the best system, however.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:09pm
well, not really.
care for some melamine in your milk?
humans are greedy little beasts.
is laissez-faire traffic the best system?
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:20pm
"humans are greedy little beasts."
You cannot change human nature simply by wishing that it would change due to emotion.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:29pm
"Laissez-faire capitalism is the best system, however."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:09pm
Care to cite any examples that prove your point of view to be correct?
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 5:33pm
Try comparing any semi-Capitalist country to any Communist country.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:35pm
Try comparing South Korea to North Korea.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:39pm
You cannot change human nature simply by wishing that it would change due to emotion.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:29pm
that's why laissez-faire is bienvenue-catastrophe.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:41pm
Try comparing South Korea to North Korea.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:39pm
try comparing cuba to haiti.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:42pm
Haiti is not a capitalist country.
However, Cuba is a murderous totalitarian dictatorship on the brink of humanitarian catastrophe whose people live in unspeakable poverty and whose leaders have killed more than 150,000 of their own citizens since taking power.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:45pm
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:45pm
You do realize that arguing with Frosty is like arguing with a 3 year old that is on a sugar high.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 5:48pm
"Try comparing South Korea to North Korea."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:39pm
The chaebol is a South Korean form of business conglomerate.
"There are several dozen large Korean family-controlled corporate groups which fall under this definition. Through aggressive governmental support and finance, some have become well-known international brand names, such as Samsung, Hyundai and LG."
http://tinyurl.com/rxj6ln
Laissez-faire? Hardly. Care to try again?
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 5:52pm
I said semi-Capitalist. No country has ever been purely capitalist (Jefferson believed in laissez-faire, but his tolerance of slavery undermined that).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:55pm
SAnti-Are you sure it wouldn't be Mao? The Communist Chinese must not now be reading his book. They obviously have turned the corner or you and your left wing conspiracy friends would not be supporting them.How come you don't talk about their Central Committee that makes their decisions? I know why ,it doesn't suit your purposes.Your concept is a fraud if you don't present what they are doing as Communist but health care reform as socialist.
Posted by whatozz at 11/14/2009 @ 5:56pm
Haiti is not a capitalist country.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:45pm
neither is south korea.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:57pm
"I said semi-Capitalist. No country has ever been purely capitalist (Jefferson believed in laissez-faire, but his tolerance of slavery undermined that)."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 5:55pm
So your statement that laissez-faire is the best system is merely opinion. And like assholes...
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 5:58pm
oye, viceroy...
what say you to laissez-faire traffic?
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 5:59pm
You do realize that arguing with Frosty is like arguing with a 3 year old that is on a sugar high.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 5:48pm
I not only believe in witchcraft and demons, I have had numerous battles with both here
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:35am
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 6:03pm
Basic logic should tell anyone that laissez-faire is the system that most encourages rationality in the marketplace.
South Korea is as capitalist as is America.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
This "rightwingnutcase" should as well sign as a complete- nut-case- rightly-so.
I won't spend a lot of time with human garbage as this. Only cite the fact that he says: "Out of touch", "Delusional". He has no compassion and does not understand human nature and is just scum.
He believes that one race is superior to another just because of an academic grade average. Don't care that one had the book, the other not. That one has a night shift to bring bread, the other has his supper ready. That one comes from a broken family, the other not. No, it is just that whites are superior. How much far are you from Hitler? Move your ass away that future is for humanistic and liberal humanity!!...unless of course you bring the military to kill and kill more people.
Posted by Frank42 at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
I not only believe in witchcraft and demons, I have had numerous battles with both here
Posted by lvliberty1 at 10/03/2008 @ 12:35am
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 6:03pm
Don't mock what you do not understand.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
"How much far are you from Hitler"
I'm not an anti-Capitalist National Socialist.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 6:08pm
"According to its constitution and written laws, Haiti meets most international human rights standards. In practice, however, many provisions are not respected. The government's human rights record is poor. Political killings, kidnapping, torture, and unlawful incarceration are common unofficial practices, especially during periods of coups or attempted coups. Although the constitution mandates an independent judiciary and the right to a fair trial, prolonged pretrial detention remains a serious problem. Because the court system and its records are poorly organized, it is impossible to determine the percentage of prisoners being held without trial."
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 6:08pm
Don't mock what you do not understand.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
don't insult me and what goes around won't come around.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 6:09pm
"Basic logic should tell anyone that laissez-faire is the system that most encourages rationality in the marketplace."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
Sure, it's totally logical to have children working in factories all day. Just basic logic, right?
"1832 New England unions condemn child labor
The New England Association of Farmers, Mechanics and Other Workingmen resolve that "Children should not be allowed to labor in the factories from morning till night, without any time for healthy recreation and mental culture," for it "endangers their . . . well-being and health."
Those damn unions! Preventing the best system.
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 6:13pm
Don't mock what you do not understand.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/14/2009 @ 6:04pm
don't insult me and what goes around won't come around.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/14/2009 @ 6:09pm
--
"for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap."
-KJB, Galatians 6-7
Posted by FLaim at 11/14/2009 @ 6:52pm
"try comparing cuba to haiti"
ouch! frosty nailed the nutcase here.
and then the nutcase responds with:
"Cuba is a murderous totalitarian dictatorship on the brink of humanitarian catastrophe whose people live in unspeakable poverty and whose leaders have killed more than 150,000 of their own citizens since taking power"
bit of an overstatement there. but, when you're trying respond to a rational claim (cuba vs. haiti), irrationally, that's what you get.
Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 9:04pm
<i>Posted by darladoon at 11/14/2009 @ 9:04pm </i>
Not much of an overstatement, actually, especially with respect to the "murderous" and "totalitarian" part. That stuff is pretty true.
Posted by Thrawn at 11/14/2009 @ 10:16pm
"bit of an overstatement there. but, when you're trying respond to a rational claim (cuba vs. haiti), irrationally"
I'm making no effort to defend Haiti, as it is not a capitalist country.
I'm simply condemning the government of Cuba, which is the only rational way of addressing its moral character.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 10:21pm
"According to its constitution and written laws, Haiti meets most international human rights standards. In practice, however, many provisions are not respected. The government's human rights record is poor. Political killings, kidnapping, torture, and unlawful incarceration are common unofficial practices, especially during periods of coups or attempted coups. Although the constitution mandates an independent judiciary and the right to a fair trial, prolonged pretrial detention remains a serious problem. Because the court system and its records are poorly organized, it is impossible to determine the percentage of prisoners being held without trial."
Precisely.
The basic principle of a capitalist society is that the government of such a country may not initiate the use of force against its citizens.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 10:23pm
In a capitalist society there is no justification for regulations. If a business negligently, knowingly, intentionally or recklessly acts in a way that violates others' rights, it should be prosecuted and held accountable; it should not be ‘regulated'. For example, if a car company creates or markets unsafe models that cause injury or death to others or their property, such as the Ford Pinto during the 1970's, the solution is to convict and imprison the officers and engineers who knowingly approved the dangerous design and levy heavy fines against the company; it is not to start telling all car companies how to design their gas tanks or chassis or engine blocks or whatever.
As for deterring future violations of rights by others, whether they be businesses or individuals, this will be accomplished by holding the violators of rights accountable for their actions. In this manner inferior and dangerous business practices will be abandoned, and be replaced with safer and better ones over time.
In sum, businesses (like individuals) should be held accountable for violating others' rights – but no, they should not be ‘regulated'.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 10:28pm
"In a capitalist society there is no justification for regulations."
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/14/2009 @ 10:28pm
And now I'm going downstairs to my basement to poke around at the arming system on my suitcase nuke that my company produces.
Look for my offerings on Ebay under the username "RingtWingNutCase"
Posted by FLaim at 11/15/2009 @ 01:05am
There is no right to bear weapons like a gun, outside of the right to life (whether for self-defense, or hunting, etc.). A corollary of a principle (such as the right to bear arms) cannot violate the principle on which it hierarchically depends upon (the right to self-defense). A nuclear weapon -- i.e., an atomic bomb -- is a weapon of mass destruction. There is no such thing as the right to mass destruction, as it lies in contradiction to the right to self-defense. One does not defend oneself against a mugger by tossing a nuclear bomb.
Nuclear weapons are not weapons of self-defense. They are weapons of total offense, that render (in the present context) all weapons of self-defense useless. Such a 'right to own a nuclear weapon' would in practice turn the right to self-defense into a chimera. After all, how does one defend oneself against a nuclear bomb? By 'ducking for cover'?
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/15/2009 @ 10:15am
There is no right to bear weapons like a gun, outside of the right to life (whether for self-defense, or hunting, etc.).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/15/2009 @ 10:15am
A slight error there. "Hunting" is neither a right nor is it recognized as such by the 2nd Amendment. It could be totally banned tomorrow and there would be no constitutional grounds to contest the banning.
Which is why JFK's attempt to ban guns that have "no legitimate sporting purpose" was itself unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment was not written for the protection of duck or deer hunting. If it protects any one type of firearm ownership, then it would be in the context of firearms most suited to the role of people acting as militia. As that is a law enforcement/military support role, this means firearms of similar function and capacity to those used by law enforcement or the military.
Historically, this has been understood as individual weapons. Rifles, pistols, shotguns. Not crew served weapons, such as howitzers, or weapons of mass destruction, like nukes or vials of anthrax.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/15/2009 @ 1:12pm
There is no right to bear weapons like a gun, outside of the right to life (whether for self-defense, or hunting, etc.).
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/15/2009 @ 10:15am
A slight error there. "Hunting" is neither a right nor is it recognized as such by the 2nd Amendment. It could be totally banned tomorrow and there would be no constitutional grounds to contest the banning.
Which is why JFK's attempt to ban guns that have "no legitimate sporting purpose" was itself unconstitutional. The 2nd Amendment was not written for the protection of duck or deer hunting. If it protects any one type of firearm ownership, then it would be in the context of firearms most suited to the role of people acting as militia. As that is a law enforcement/military support role, this means firearms of similar function and capacity to those used by law enforcement or the military.
Historically, this has been understood as individual weapons. Rifles, pistols, shotguns. Not crew served weapons, such as howitzers, or weapons of mass destruction, like nukes or vials of anthrax.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/15/2009 @ 1:12pm
Explain the Parable of the Wicked Husbandmen, Anti.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/14/2009 @ 11:18am |
the parable of the wicked husbandman or vinedresser was about the rejection of Israel not only of their prophets, but of the Messiah, Jesus.
What does that have to do with any of these posts?
Posted by antisocialist at 11/15/2009 @ 2:07pm
"In a capitalist society there is no justification for regulations"
(most moronic quote of the day)
Posted by darladoon at 11/15/2009 @ 9:49pm
"no justifcation for regulations"
"in a capitalist society"
one is inundated with such crap all over the internet.
Posted by darladoon at 11/15/2009 @ 11:15pm
"Historically, this has been understood as individual weapons. Rifles, pistols, shotguns. Not crew served weapons, such as howitzers, or weapons of mass destruction, like nukes or vials of anthrax."
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/15/2009 @ 1:12pm
Hey, CC! I was born in Columbus, not too far from Middletown (home of the Ohio KKK) and spent some time in Niles (where the paisanos kicked some ignorant white butt.)
Was Ronnie wrong to sign the Mulford Act?
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 02:28am
'No justification for regulations in a capitalist society'
Regulations are legislation.. legislation = laws.
You advocate nothing less than anarchy. A completely unfettered system that allows whatever the hell it pleases. You, sir, are a miscreant who can argue anything apparently - no matter how ridiculous.
For this comment debate I declare
'Mission Accomplished'
The conservative right have revealed their utter ignorance again.
Somehow the victory is not satisfying.. as they still exist with their backwards ideology.. facts do us no good vs. those who ignore them.
They discredit themselves more than we ever could.. yet it's to no avail.
*sigh*
Regulation serves no purpose in a capitalist society..
sir - the constitution itself is regulation.
Regulation is "controlling human or societal behaviour by rules or restrictions."
In the instance of the Bill of Rights - it's more legislating what we can't legislate... yet the fact of the matter is - for the law to say I can't murder you - that is 'Regulation'.
To argue than any institution.. including financial ones.. shouldn't be regulated - is to say nothing less than they should have no rules.
My god.. just nevermind.
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:38am
And to interpret the 2nd amendment as 'self defense' is reading into it. You should instead take it at it's word - if you are going to take it at all.
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed
They had no way to predict nuclear weapons.. but they said straight forward - that the right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed. -- that means to not encroach on it at all.. in any way.
So... any 'arm' would be allowed. Even Nuclear Arms.. there is no provision for 'self defense' - it cites a militia and no infringement on arms.
Do I advocate the right to own a nuke.. no. I'm anti guns - they tend to kill the owner's family.. it's a statistical fact.
What I'm saying is simply... that's what the founding fathers said - they weren't perfect - and nor was the constitution.
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:46am
to continue.. because I think I should explain better.
When the 2nd amendment was written - the intent was that the people would be armed sufficiently to deal with a tyrannical government - if it was necessary.
Modern weaponry means we today - handguns and all - are simply no match.
Now hand guns serve no purpose but as a proposed protection against a would be burglar. They don't protect us from a tyrannical government - not in the slightest.
The founding fathers had the right idea.. but couldn't anticipate the state of things.
When muskets were the norm.. then it was logical. Now we would require anti-tank weapons.. and I imagine a citizen nuclear arms race. Sad to say.. the 2nd amendment is passe. But.. in the event of riots across the face of the nation - when conservative terrorists begin the 2nd civil war.. I might want to pick up a side arm or two.
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:59am
"Regulations are legislation.. legislation = laws.
You advocate nothing less than anarchy"
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:38am
"William Roper: So, now you give the Devil the benefit of law!
Sir Thomas More: Yes! What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
William Roper: Yes, I'd cut down every law in England to do that!
Sir Thomas More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned 'round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country is planted thick with laws, from coast to coast, Man's laws, not God's! And if you cut them down, and you're just the man to do it, do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I'd give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety's sake!"
"A Man for All Seasons"
Great flick, and I'm HAPPY to have seen it first run in NYC. Same time Nina Simone was singing at the Village Gate.
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 03:31am
Hey D!
I've got an extra McMillan TAC-50.
2,120 meters confirmed.
But my eyes are going bad.
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 03:43am
"When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize!" right (see: iraq, katrina, afghanistan, 9.11, torture, wiretapping, secret rendition, etc) don't remember any apologies for any of the above.... Posted by darladoon
Nothing to apologize for.
Posted by abell12ct at 11/16/2009 @ 07:22am
"When conservatives make mistakes, they apologize!" right (see: iraq, katrina, afghanistan, 9.11, torture, wiretapping, secret rendition, etc) don't remember any apologies for any of the above.... Posted by darladoon
Or how about this
We're sorry Sadaaam was a tyrant We're sorry the New Orleans Mayor was an idot and didn't order an evacuation We're sorry that Afghanistan harbored Al Qaeda We're sorry that Clinton didn't get Osama when he had the chance We're sorry we tortured terrorists to protect U.S citizens We're sorry we developed a computer program that sifts out terrorist communications from all of the phone calls worldwide We're sorry we didn't treat terrorists with respect.
How's that Darla the loon?
Posted by abell12ct at 11/16/2009 @ 07:27am
Posted by abell12ct at 11/16/2009 @ 07:27am |
"We're sorry Sadaaam was a tyrant"
We're sorry you killed so many innocent Iraqis in your vainglorious attempt to save them.
-- "We're sorry the New Orleans Mayor was an idot and didn't order an evacuation"
He did, he was simply unprepared for the scale of catastrophe...as was Dubya's tweede-dum excuse for a nepotistic joke of an administration.
-- "We're sorry that Afghanistan harbored Al Qaeda"
We're sorry they're half of Af-Pak now.
-- "We're sorry that Clinton didn't get Osama when he had the chance"
We're sorry your peeps can read an intel report on an imminent threat.
-- "We're sorry we tortured terrorists to protect U.S citizens"
You should be.
-- "We're sorry we developed a computer program that sifts out terrorist communications from all of the phone calls worldwide"
Didn't stop Hasan, did it?
-- "We're sorry we didn't treat terrorists with respect."
Or gain their trust, or get useful intel, or use them to find and punish other terrorists.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/16/2009 @ 08:15am
Hey, CC! I was born in Columbus, not too far from Middletown (home of the Ohio KKK) and spent some time in Niles (where the paisanos kicked some ignorant white butt.)
Was Ronnie wrong to sign the Mulford Act?
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 02:28am
Well, I was born in Middletown and spent most of my life until just after high school there. Hearing that it is the home of the Ohio KKK comes as a suprise to me, as it would every other person of it's 51,000 or so population.
In fact, I cannot remember in living memory a KKK rally or march having taken place within Middletown, OH. Were it the "home" of Ohio's KKK, one would expect something along the lines of Skokie, Illinois. Such is not the case.
And no, I do not support then Governor Reagan's decision to sign the Mulford Act.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 09:28am
Hey, CC! I was born in Columbus, not too far from Middletown (home of the Ohio KKK) and spent some time in Niles (where the paisanos kicked some ignorant white butt.)
Was Ronnie wrong to sign the Mulford Act?
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 02:28am
Well, I was born in Middletown and spent most of my life until just after high school there. Hearing that it is the home of the Ohio KKK comes as a suprise to me, as it would every other person of it's 51,000 or so population.
In fact, I cannot remember in living memory a KKK rally or march having taken place within Middletown, OH. Were it the "home" of Ohio's KKK, one would expect something along the lines of Skokie, Illinois. Such is not the case.
And no, I do not support then Governor Reagan's decision to sign the Mulford Act.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 09:28am
-- "We're sorry we didn't treat terrorists with respect."
Or gain their trust, or get useful intel, or use them to find and punish other terrorists.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/16/2009 @ 08:15am
Yep, because it's probably highly likely that none of those choices were first tried. You know, the whole "catch more flies with honey" approach. No, I'm sure they just skipped right over the "talk to them, see what you can find out, offer them deals, be reasonable" approach and went right to the water boarding and sleep deprivation stage.
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. The idea that these extreme measures to insure the safety of Americans were the first tool in the box our side reached for is patently absurd. What we eventually ended up doing to guys like Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is what you resort to AFTER the other methods of gaining intell have failed.
Do not try to suggest it was otherwise.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 09:35am
-- "We're sorry we didn't treat terrorists with respect."
Or gain their trust, or get useful intel, or use them to find and punish other terrorists.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/16/2009 @ 08:15am
Yep, because it's probably highly likely that none of those choices were first tried. You know, the whole "catch more flies with honey" approach. No, I'm sure they just skipped right over the "talk to them, see what you can find out, offer them deals, be reasonable" approach and went right to the water boarding and sleep deprivation stage.
Yes, I'm being sarcastic. The idea that these extreme measures to insure the safety of Americans were the first tool in the box our side reached for is patently absurd. What we eventually ended up doing to guys like Khalid Sheikh Mohammad is what you resort to AFTER the other methods of gaining intell have failed.
Do not try to suggest it was otherwise.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 09:35am
When the 2nd amendment was written - the intent was that the people would be armed sufficiently to deal with a tyrannical government - if it was necessary.
Modern weaponry means we today - handguns and all - are simply no match.
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:59am
The problem with this declaration is that it ignores the insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which have resisted our more modern and better equipped military of tanks and helicopters with little more than small arms and simple explosive devices.
So much so that more than one liberal, Harry Reid included, at times declared Iraq "lost".
It has been my belief all along that if Iraq or Afghanistan was home to a culture of rifle marksmanship comparable to America or Switzerland, then we either would not have gone there to begin with, or would have left a lot sooner...in retreat.
But that level of skill in a population only has a chance to develop in free countries.
Iraq is roughly comparable in size to the state of California. California actually has a larger population than Iraq. A significant portion of our military is there in Iraq. (A military which still issues pistols, and not as protection against burglers).
Taken in that context, America as a whole, with it's 300+ million people and millions of firearms, simply could not by "tyrannized" by any despotic government if the people decided they had enough.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 10:16am
When the 2nd amendment was written - the intent was that the people would be armed sufficiently to deal with a tyrannical government - if it was necessary.
Modern weaponry means we today - handguns and all - are simply no match.
Posted by D_Kennedy at 11/16/2009 @ 02:59am
The problem with this declaration is that it ignores the insurgencies in both Iraq and Afghanistan, both of which have resisted our more modern and better equipped military of tanks and helicopters with little more than small arms and simple explosive devices.
So much so that more than one liberal, Harry Reid included, at times declared Iraq "lost".
It has been my belief all along that if Iraq or Afghanistan was home to a culture of rifle marksmanship comparable to America or Switzerland, then we either would not have gone there to begin with, or would have left a lot sooner...in retreat.
But that level of skill in a population only has a chance to develop in free countries.
Iraq is roughly comparable in size to the state of California. California actually has a larger population than Iraq. A significant portion of our military is there in Iraq. (A military which still issues pistols, and not as protection against burglers).
Taken in that context, America as a whole, with it's 300+ million people and millions of firearms, simply could not by "tyrannized" by any despotic government if the people decided they had enough.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 10:16am
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 10:16am
"Wolverines!!!!!".......right, Citizen???
Posted by Mask at 11/16/2009 @ 11:11am
Perhaps, but to dismiss this as something appropriate to a fanciful movie is to dismiss the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and resistance cells all over Europe during WWII.
And again, it is to dismiss the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it also ignores the fact that real totalitarian regimes in our world make a point of disarming the population they intend to tyrannize. China, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North Korea. Those governments, although possessing modern militaries with technological advantages, for some reason are very uncomfortable with giving their people the means to treat guys like Kim Jong Il like a very interesting long range rifle target.
Our Founders knew what they were doing when they wrote that into the Bill of Rights. They'd seen it's necessity firsthand.
But I'm not one of these "collapse of society" anti-government types. I'm a solider, after all. I'm just stating the historical record.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 12:14pm
Perhaps, but to dismiss this as something appropriate to a fanciful movie is to dismiss the history of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising and resistance cells all over Europe during WWII.
And again, it is to dismiss the insurgency in Iraq and Afghanistan. And it also ignores the fact that real totalitarian regimes in our world make a point of disarming the population they intend to tyrannize. China, the Soviet Union, Nazi Germany, North Korea. Those governments, although possessing modern militaries with technological advantages, for some reason are very uncomfortable with giving their people the means to treat guys like Kim Jong Il like a very interesting long range rifle target.
Our Founders knew what they were doing when they wrote that into the Bill of Rights. They'd seen it's necessity firsthand.
But I'm not one of these "collapse of society" anti-government types. I'm a solider, after all. I'm just stating the historical record.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 12:14pm
Say what you want about capitalism but I just finished another book about the Holocaust and believe me, there is no room in this country for socialism.
Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/14/2009 @ 4:58pm
Can we just finalize something here? The Holocaust in Europe was NOT perpetrated by socialists: it was perpetrated by fascists; and those of you who think differently know nothing about either history or socio-economic philosophies.
Now, the Russian purge, which killed about 20 million russians, was perpetrated by Communists.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 12:54pm
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 12:54pm
The Germans certainly did not refer to themselves as "fascists", which was used by the Italians to describe themselves, and by Stalin to differentiate between his brand of international socialism and the national brand of it. The Nazis called themselves national socialists.
And yes, their economic and social policies were socialist.
And Italian fascism as an economic and political model received praise from American progressives. Mussolini considered himself a lifelong socialist. There is a biographical movie starring Antonia Banderas about Mussolini in his young years to this effect.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 2:02pm
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 12:54pm
The Germans certainly did not refer to themselves as "fascists", which was used by the Italians to describe themselves, and by Stalin to differentiate between his brand of international socialism and the national brand of it. The Nazis called themselves national socialists.
And yes, their economic and social policies were socialist.
And Italian fascism as an economic and political model received praise from American progressives. Mussolini considered himself a lifelong socialist. There is a biographical movie starring Antonia Banderas about Mussolini in his young years to this effect.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 2:02pm
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 10:16am
"Wolverines!!!!!".......right, Citizen???
Posted by Mask at 11/16/2009 @ 11:11am | ignore this person | warn this person
Nah, they're not having much of a season.
Rich Rodriguez has another season at best; if there's a new athletic director, then I see Stanford's Harbaugh written on the wall.
The alums want a "Michigan Man."
Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/16/2009 @ 2:56pm
The Nazis called themselves national socialists.
And yes, their economic and social policies were socialist.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 2:02pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And had vicious, bloody street battles with both communists and socialists, winning because of the acquiescence of the police.
Then, formed the Condor Legion to go help out Franco, once again, against the communists.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/16/2009 @ 2:59pm
Who cares what hannity does. What is he exactly outside of a flack for the most idiotic of republican policies. Where is it that he has any credibility. He makes mainstream media look professional. Let him and these other nitwits do what their doing, it's only a fringe group anyhow. Either way they all know so little they are are hardly an influence much less a threat.
Posted by jobbo at 11/16/2009 @ 3:00pm
And had vicious, bloody street battles with both communists and socialists, winning because of the acquiescence of the police.
Then, formed the Condor Legion to go help out Franco, once again, against the communists.
Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/16/2009 @ 2:59pm
Yes, as I said, communism (international socialism) was a direct competitor with national socialism. They did not like each other.
This is not to say they weren't both murderous left-wing ideologies. They were.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 4:01pm
"In fact, I cannot remember in living memory a KKK rally or march having taken place within Middletown, OH."
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 09:28am
Living memory. Well, I guess you're a youngster.
http://tinyurl.com/yz7l6wn
Semper Fi!
Posted by FLaim at 11/16/2009 @ 4:44pm
The Germans certainly did not refer to themselves as "fascists", which was used by the Italians to describe themselves, and by Stalin to differentiate between his brand of international socialism and the national brand of it. The Nazis called themselves national socialists.
And yes, their economic and social policies were socialist.
And Italian fascism as an economic and political model received praise from American progressives. Mussolini considered himself a lifelong socialist. There is a biographical movie starring Antonia Banderas about Mussolini in his young years to this effect.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/16/2009 @ 2:02pm
Well, you refer to yourself as a "citizen" but just because one says one is a thing, does not mean one IS a thing.
The Nazis did not refer to themselves as fascists, because the word was newly coined by the Italians, but if you don't believe the Nazi regime worked through an alliance of business and government (which is what fascism is), then you obviously haven't seen "Schindler's List" or know anything about fascism.
Yes, the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists" but they were, for all intents and purposes, nationalists first and foremost. Nationalism pairs better with fascism than socialism. Nazi policies and procedures were not socialist at all; they were based on the combined might of big business, supported by slavery (the Jews, gypsies, etc.), combined with government control of every aspect of business. Business supported by slavery and controlled by the government is NOT socialism.
And while fascism might have been supported at the time by progressives (proof of your statement?), the Nazis were directly and indirectly supported by American business, until we entered into war with them.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 5:53pm
"combined with government control of every aspect of business."
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 5:53pm
The definition of socialism.
Posted by rightwingnutcase at 11/16/2009 @ 8:05pm
Yes, the Nazis called themselves "National Socialists" but they were, for all intents and purposes, nationalists first and foremost. Nationalism pairs better with fascism than socialism. Nazi policies and procedures were not socialist at all; they were based on the combined might of big business, supported by slavery (the Jews, gypsies, etc.), combined with government control of every aspect of business. Business supported by slavery and controlled by the government is NOT socialism.
And while fascism might have been supported at the time by progressives (proof of your statement?), the Nazis were directly and indirectly supported by American business, until we entered into war with them.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/16/2009 @ 5:53pm
spoken like a true comrade in the realpolitik
Posted by antisocialist at 11/16/2009 @ 8:10pm