Ft. Hood Drowns Out the Tea Party

Don't bring your pitchforks. This is to be our "last stand" to stop health care reform, it's Alamo time. Don't let your congressmen call it a "rally" or "protest"--make sure they say "press event" or "press conference." The point is to see "the whites of their eyes," because there's nothing a congressman fears more than a "freedom-loving American." Oh, and don't dress "too nicely." We don't want the press to start calling this another "Brooks Brothers riot" like they did when Bush aides stormed Miami hallways to stop the 2000 recount.

You can feel the tension between the urge to bully and the need to seem "normal" in every hectic contradiction sent out over the past couple days by Rep. Michelle Bachmann and the Republican Study Committee to the thousands of Tea Partiers who gathered to protest at the Capitol on Thursday. And you have to sympathize. Truly, it isn't easy to be inoffensively radical, or respectably revolutionary, or even pleasantly insane.

Brought in on buses chartered by the corporate astroturf group Americans For Prosperity, they were the now de rigeur crew of white folks of a certain age, carrying signs emblazoned with Holocaust corpse pits and Obama as the Joker. Most wound up snarled before the metal detectors at the entrances to House and Senate office buildings across the street from the Capitol, trying to get inside to "scare" their congresspeople but instead spilling into the traffic outside. A handful of anti-abortion protesters were arrested at Nancy Pelosi's office in the Canon House Office Building (Pelosi wasn't there; she spent most of her day in the Capitol itself, where access is strictly limited).

Bachmann had called this a "desperate act" in hopes of countering the House vote on the reform bill, scheduled for this Saturday, though you've got to wonder whether another reason was to drown out coverage of its endorsement by both the American Association of Retired People and the American Medical Association (the latter a real Et tu? moment for the GOP).

In the end it didn't matter--the shooting of 43 people at Ft. Hood in Texas by an Army major with an Arabic name drowned out the Tea Partiers and just about everything else.

The mass murder reminded us that, while Bachmann's flock were arguing hysterically about "death panels" and taxes to pay for "other peoples' health care" (as one Tea Partier complained to NBC), George Bush's two unfinished--and unfinishable--wars are taking an unimaginable toll on American soldiers and their families. Not to mention that those hopeless quagmires are siphoning off more money than this mild bill could ever cost, while destroying the morale of the last national institution, the military, with anywhere near the resources it needs to function.

All this is far worse than merely pleasantly insane. How can a country facing the multiple, monumental crises left behind by the Bush/Cheney team ever hope to come together and solve them with Republican leadership like that of Rep. Todd Akin (R-MO)? It was Akin who, just two hours before the shootings began at Ft. Hood, recited the Pledge of Allegiance to the Tea Partiers at the Capitol, saying, "It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this and it drives the liberals crazy!"

Notice how Akin snarkily raises the volume on "under God" while dropping the too-bipartisan word "indivisible"? Even when they are specifically told not to bring their pitchforks, that they must stop frightening little children and horses, these people cannot help themselves. Less than two months ago John Boehner and Eric Cantor were fretting about the need to moderate bomb-throwers like Bachmann. Yet there they were Thursday, sharing a stage not only with the mindless Minnesotan but with hyperbolic posters comparing health care to Maoism and Obama to Hitler.

The massacre at Ft. Hood does put the threat posed by the cost of a poor person's colonoscopy to an insurance company's bottom line in a raking light. But the people who gave us the wars that just came home to Texas can't see the connection: Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC), for instance, warned us last week that, "we have more to fear from the potential of that [health care reform] bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country."

Now, that's a respectable revolution.

Comments (141)

1. Sick, elitist socialists like yourself cannot understand the anger that many millions of Americans feel as we see the Congress attempt their incremental socialist conversion of this constitutional republic.

   I applaud any member of Congress including the 40 Democrats who have vowed not to support this legislation.

   Your leftist tyranny is not yet sufficient in numbers to destroy our constitutional republic.

   Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

2. Michelle Bachmann... terrorist?

   "...The unlawful use or threatened use of force or violence by a person or an organized group against people or property with the intention of intimidating or coercing societies or governments, often for ideological or political reasons."

   Is she a conservative 'jihadist'?

   Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 12:19pm

3. Your leftist tyranny is not yet sufficient in numbers to destroy our constitutional republic. Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

   Your rhetoric becomes more cliche by the moment.

   After 9 months we have a 'totalitarian' government, Get a grip. A 'tyranny' when Obama is more of a corporatist than a leftist. Naive. That's where the tyranny lies, with our corporate controllers. Obama and all the others at the top just masquerade as our leaders when in fact they don't really hold the reins at all.

   Two wars that siphon off massive amounts of money which could be used here at home for healthcare options... and only 2% of americans would use the 'public option' that political extremists are so worried about.

   All this when MORONS in our military can't even protect us here at home by using the most elementary and simplistic techniques to ward off disaster.... the gift of hearing and vision.

   Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 12:30pm

4. Seems the "best" number they come up with is 10,000.

   Which, as noted on Peter Rothberg's thread on gay rights, is 1/20th the number who showed up for the Equality march back on October 10/11.

   BTW, the Right always has an explanation for why THEIR protests always come up lackadaisical and the Left's doesn't. Wanna guess what it is?

   Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 12:30pm

5. the greatest danger to capitalism in this country, and to our competitive business edge internationally are the uber-free market satano-aynrandos whose snake-eating-own-tail version of economic and social anarchy and irresponsibility have one again provided fodder and fuel for those few real "socialists" out there about whom they are supposedly so worried...

   hey...history, folks...read and study it, and not from some absurd mercenary mind employed by a satano-aynrando rightwing anarchist propaganda factory...

   try william manchester's "the glory and the dream", or for that matter about any high school history book and LEARN OBVIOUS LESSONS.

   here i am trying to create 12-14 jobs in renewable energy and i WANT to offer health insurance, but...

   EVERYBODY tells me what a risk and nightmare it is and that we should wait...which we probably will, since solvency is a higher priority at this point than living up to my progressive conservative ideals. gotta grub for big number one regardless of what one dreams...

   shit, folks...we laugh and chrtle and roll our privileged eyes at third world hellholes whose economies are sucked dry by parasitic corruption to the point where they cannot compete with better ordered, more efficient and developed systems and LOOK AT US!!!

   how much more wastefully, bullshittily, parasitical and corrupt can we get than forcing honest business people and workers to enrich a for profit health insurance industry that delivers a shoddy, overpriced, bullshitty service and forces me and all other business people to waste our time fucking with these fucking parasites?

   as far as i'm concerned there are two areas in which that awful, horrible ol gubbamint does better than private and should be at the VERY LEAST HEAVILY REGULATED BY THE GUBBAMINT -

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 1:17pm

6. health care and pension portability.

   i could care less if some frontally brain lobe challenged 19 year old who thinks he or she is going to live forever and never get sick prefers to spend his hard earned bling on a bag of pot and scrumping mary jane rottencrotch than paying for health care. after his trist with ol maryjane, he'll be begging for some of that health care...gubbamint or not...

   capitalism's biggest enemy by far is ultimately itself, or more specifically the small minded grubby moron ideologues who can't see the forest for the trees because of the stupid ideological blinders they wear at all times, who as a result of their excess and grubby avarice destroy wealth and discourage its creation by discrediting capitalism to those who suffer from their irresponsibility...

   single payer health care and pension portability for all - NOT SOCIALISM - SOCIAL INSURANCE AND CAPITALISM'S BEST FRIEND!!!

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 1:23pm

7. goddamned morons. goddamned morons! something for nothing concrete objective thinking, small minded, ideologically lobotomized, educated beyond their intelligence, know-it-all pseudo-intellectuals!

   here's a few facts of life...

   1. being rich costs money

   2. life is not fair, but to make no attempt to establish fairness is tantamount to willingly abetting wickedness

   3. capitalists need capital to invest and create jobs, but consumers need disposable income to purchase services and products. supply AND demand

   4. capitalism IS unfair. some people make and control a HELL of a lot more money than the earn while others work themselves into an early grave for peanuts. with increased automation and outsourcing of jobs to undeveloped wage slave nations, more and more wealth is unfairly concentrated in fewer and fewer hands -

   where does it all end? without some wise, well thought our wealth redistribution, where does it all end?

   you goddamned satano-aynrando morons screech about "socialism" til your lying, deluded heads spin and spontaneously combust, but YOU are to blame for any damage to capitalism.

   SOCIALISTS? REALLY???? REALLY!!!!!!

   how pinched and poor does the consuming class get before you start seeing some REAL UGLY REVOLUTIONARY SLA STYLE "SOCIALISM" or some other radical ideology rise to serve the downtrodden and despised who's spending enriches you?

   stop following that evil pied piper bitch, ayn rand, and her hateful, suicidal, spiteful, and poorly thought out bullshit ideology before we all suffer and find ourselves smack dab in the middle of a dystopic future third world hell from which we cannot extract ourselves.

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 1:38pm

8. FUCK YOU IF YOU CAN SOME HOW RELATE THE TRAGIC EVEN THAT HAPPENED AT FT. HOOD TO THE DAMN HEALTH CARE BILL..... OPEN YOUR EYES Leslie Savan THIS WAS NOT ABOUT THE BILL. IT WAS ABOUT A "THING" THAT WAS SO COLD HEARTED AND THAT WAS A BACK STABBER TO HIS OWN COUNTRY AND FELLOW SERVICEMEN.... SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY ANYTHING TO TRY AND SWAY PEOPLE TO THEIR BELIEFS.... GET A FREAKING BRAIN, HEART, SOUL, OR SOMETHING. LEAVE THE VICTIMS IN PEACE!

   Posted by skyblueyez1011 at 11/06/2009 @ 1:49pm

9. Posted by skyblueyez1011 at 11/06/2009 @ 1:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person

   i admit to having a bit of a hard time making the connection here with ms. savan's thesis, but...

   how can you get so righteously enraged at the actions of one evil, deluded islamo-fascist whose body count is what? 13 or 14?

   and not be enfuriated by the MILLIONS WHO HAVE SUFFERED NEEDLESSLY AND DIED PREMATURELY AS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE INSTITUTIONALIZED PARASITIC TERRORISM INFLICTED UPON THE ENTIRE COUNTRY FOR DECADES BY HEALTH INSURANCE COMPANIES AND THE SOULLESS BASTARDS WHO SERVE THEM IN WASHINGTON AND BEYOND?

   really? how can you be so ignorant as to be incapable of doing a little cursory research beyond party-line-safe satano-aynrando propaganda factories, WHICH WOULD PROVE THAT THE WORST, MOST DEATH DEALING CRIMINALS IN THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY ARE THE PARASITES OF THE HEALTH INSURANCE INDUSTRY, closely followed by those war mongering macho bastards on detached duty from haliburton etc. who led us into two expensive bloody land wars in asia????

   your rage pales in comparison to mine...

   Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:01pm

10. Posted by skyblueyez1011 at 11/06/2009 @ 1:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    PS: fuck you.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:03pm

11. your rage pales in comparison to mine...---Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:01pm

    Punk trying to out-out-rage you, IBB?.....ambitious fool.

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 2:18pm

12. After 9 months we have a 'totalitarian' government, Get a grip. A 'tyranny' when Obama is more of a corporatist than a leftist. Naive. That's where the tyranny lies, with our corporate controllers. Obama and all the others at the top just masquerade as our leaders when in fact they don't really hold the reins at all.

    Two wars that siphon off massive amounts of money which could be used here at home for healthcare options... and only 2% of americans would use the 'public option' that political extremists are so worried about.

    All this when MORONS in our military can't even protect us here at home by using the most elementary and simplistic techniques to ward off disaster.... the gift of hearing and vision.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 12:30pm

    I didn't say we are already there. I am saying that people like Ms Savan are encouraging the leftist Dems to take us down that road through incrementalism.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 2:24pm

13. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:01pm

    Rant all you want IBB, but healthcare is just a service. Most people never really need hospitalization or even to see a doctor in their lifetime.

    And most healthcare issues (not all) are self induced because of lifestyle choices.

    So you rant is meaningless to me.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 2:27pm

14. to all those who still credit the destructive myopic ideology that has infested this country for three plus decades now...

    you can stop. you can stop at any time and your souls and the entire country, world, will profit.

    there once lived a man named angwa mala in ancient india. he was a brutal serial killer who followed an evil doctrine and had killed 999 innocents, lopping off their fingers and stringing them around his neck to make a gruesome trophy display.

    one day a wise man in a small dusty village heard from his followers that angwa mala was coming to town. his followers begged the old wise man to hide with them and the towns folk in the forest until the serial killer left, but being old and wise and therefore without fear, he refused.

    so they left him alone.

    angwa mala strode into town with his gruesome necklace and murderous rage in his heart, saw the old man puttering across the street.

    "hey old man! stop!" he bellowed. the old man ignored him, puttering along.

    "Hey old man! STOP!!!" he yelled again, his face reddening and his and twitching beside his sword. still the old man ignored him, puttering along.

    Finally Angwas Mala lost his shit, unsheathed his murderous blade, charged down the street at the old man, grabbed him by the shoulder, twirled him around and raised his sword, prepared to claim victim number 1000, but first he screamed to the old man, "Before I kill you, fool, answer me one question! Why, when i told you to stop, did you not stop!?!?!?"

    the old man smiled calmly and nblinking replied, "I stopped long ago - you have yet to stop."

    the murderer broke down at that moment and fell to his knees sobbing. the wise old man took him in to his group of follwers and sheltered him from his many enemies.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:48pm

15. angwa mala's stay in hell was considerably shorter as a result...

    to all of you who have heavily invested yourselves in a wicked and pain bringing ideology, who pride yourselves in your wicked cleverness, its not too late to change.

    STOP!!!!! its THAT easy...

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:49pm

16. Posted by Mask at 11/06/2009 @ 2:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    and i'm not even logged in as dexter666...

    lol

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:51pm

17. Rant all you want IBB, but healthcare is just a service. Most people never really need hospitalization or even to see a doctor in their lifetime.

    And most healthcare issues (not all) are self induced because of lifestyle choices.

    So you rant is meaningless to me.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 2:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    most people never really need hospitilization or to see a doctor?????

    REALLY????

    shepherd, almost EVERYBODY will need to be hospitalized at some point in their lives and unless we are operating under the "die before you can use your bullshitty insurance" satano-aynrando healt care solution...

    THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO NEED TO SEE DOCTORS!!!

    my god, preacher...is this all you have? is this the extent of your defense of evil?

    you, of all people should heed my advise and STOP. its not good for your soul.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:58pm

18. "Sick, elitist socialists like yourself cannot understand the anger that many millions of Americans feel as we see the Congress attempt their incremental socialist conversion of this constitutional republic."

    but for some strange reason, those "many millions of americans" are just fine with completely unnecessary trillion dollar invasions and occupations of unstable and dangerous foreign countries, that were not a threat to us, and which had nothing to do with 9.11.

    but a public health care option for uninsured americans? that's the "socialist conversion" which we must fear. "socialists" run walls street, too, right?

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 3:06pm

19. So you rant is meaningless to me.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 2:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    that's unfortunate.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 3:09pm

20. Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 3:06pm

    Think OIL.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 11/06/2009 @ 3:47pm

21. shepherd, almost EVERYBODY will need to be hospitalized at some point in their lives and unless we are operating under the "die before you can use your bullshitty insurance" satano-aynrando healt care solution...

    THEY MOST CERTAINLY DO NEED TO SEE DOCTORS!!!

    my god, preacher...is this all you have? is this the extent of your defense of evil?

    you, of all people should heed my advise and STOP. its not good for your soul.

    Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 2:58pm

    less than 8 tenths of 1 percent of Americans die every year, about 3/4 of those die in a hospital. So that is just over 1/2 of 1%.

    Add in delivery of babies which is about 4 million women each year. If 100% did so in hospitals, that is about 1.3%

    I would guesstimate that less than 5% of Americans go in the hospital each year when you add in all other causes.

    And no, most people do not need to see a doctor. They would do just fine if they eat properly, exercise, avoid poor lifestyle choices like smoking, excessive drinking, drug use, risky sex, and drive defensively.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 5:17pm

22. "And no, most people do not need to see a doctor"

    (quote of the century)

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:20pm

23. antisocialist should have said, "most people do not need to see a doctor......unless they need to see a doctor"

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:21pm

24. glenn beck needed to see a doctor this week

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:21pm

25. antisocialist-While I tend to avoid doctors and use natural products when they work I also know that medical science came into existence because faith healing and natural remedies failed.People living good natural lives got every disease that came around and died in large numbers.Women in particular have been helped by advances in medical science.Child birth used to be a common way for women to die.Now it is quite rare.There are multitudes of people who are alive or living more fulfilling lives because of medical science and is rather silly for you to claim that most do not need doctors.Life is dangerous.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/06/2009 @ 5:29pm

26. Anti, is there nothing that will turn your heart of stone into one of compassion? What will it take to make you see that people are suffering and dying because they have no health care? I mean I'm just baffled by your not CAREING!!! Sigh....... .

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/06/2009 @ 5:29pm

27. Imperialist Big Government Neocons and their indistinguishable fellow travelers e.g., apparently, 'antisocialist' indeed discredit the ideology of real small government conservatism which could theoretically delegitimatize unneeded Big Government health expenditures.

    So if we must spend for Israel's wars, Oil, and Empire we must spend for Health.

    Posted by zionopp at 11/06/2009 @ 5:34pm

28. "Anti, is there nothing that will turn your heart of stone into one of compassion?"

    no.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:37pm

29. it's not the role of a minister to preach compassion!

    huh?!

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:38pm

30. Anti, is there nothing that will turn your heart of stone into one of compassion? What will it take to make you see that people are suffering and dying because they have no health care? I mean I'm just baffled by your not CAREING!!! Sigh....... .

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/06/2009 @ 5:29pm

    The reason you are baffled is because you don't understand my argument.

    Most medical care in this country is harmful to your health and unneccessary.

    the normal expected side effects of Prescription drugs are the 3rd leading killer of Americans after heart disease and cancer. ALL three could be dramatically reduced if we:

    1. quit taking prescription drugs

    2. made the right lifestyle choices which would eliminate most deaths and debillitation from heart disease and cancer.

    I do passionately care about Americans and their health which is why I remain both passionate and adamant against the way Americans have become dependent of healthcare that cannot bring health.

    For more than 30 years I have been advocating this message of changing your life to embrace the absolute best preventative care you can get-living right. I have more than a 1000 times the hours in nutritional education that any doctor has.

    What the other thing that continually BAFFLES me on this site, is that most of the people I'm around in the natural medicine arena are LIBERALS. Yet, it is liberals/progressives here that rail against my belief in natural health.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 5:42pm

31. "I remain both passionate and adamant against the way Americans have become dependent of healthcare that cannot bring health"

    that's funny, antisocialist, because you JUST said this:

    "I would guesstimate that less than 5% of Americans go in the hospital each year when you add in all other causes"

    evidently, antisocialist has two drastically contrasting opinions on the matter.

    "Yet, it is liberals/progressives here that rail against my belief in natural health"

    apparently, anti is clueless about what i do for a living.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:49pm

32. antisocialist, what if someone, w/out helath insurance, lives a "natural" life, just as you recommend, and gets hit by a drunk driver?

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:53pm

33. "Yet, it is liberals/progressives here that rail against my belief in natural health"

    apparently, anti is clueless about what i do for a living.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:49pm

    I'm not clueless about what you do for a living, but even you are a proponent of doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs; at least it would seem so by your constant push for single payer

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 5:54pm

34. "I'm not clueless about what you do for a living, but even you are a proponent of doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs; at least it would seem so by your constant push for single payer"

    wow, you're really off base today, anti. first of all, that i support single payer doesn't automatically mean i support "doctors, hospitals and prescription drugs."

    while i prefer preventive care, holistic or homeopathic treatments, yoga, meditation, healthy diet, etc, etc.....i am not opposed to doctors and hospitals and drugs. that would be utterly absurd.

    doctors are sometimes necessary, anti, just admit that. and single payer is the most efficient, cost-effective way of:

    a) insuring everyone

    b) bringing costs way, way down

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 6:05pm

35. In the article up above Leslie Savan says:

    "...........All this is far worse than merely pleasantly insane........"

    That is a true statement about Leslie Savan's article, or for that matter most articles from the left.

    Standard leftist stuff, in the article above.

    A lone person turns out to be wacko, but somehow the connection is made, as always, to George W. Bush.

    We are at war, to fight terrorism. Necessary wars. Began during the Bush administration, thank God he was President when such action was necessary. (thank God as well that Tony Blair was Prime Minister).

    So we are at war, then someone who was going to be deployed to war goes berserk, and on cue the left levies implied blame on George W. Bush.

    Another standard leftism here is the connection between two unrelated things.

    We are at war. There is a debate about health care in this country, with the left promoting socialist health care.

    So if somebody who is scheduled to go to war goes berserk, it gives the left the opportunity to say that we should be doing something the left wants (install socialist health care) instead of something the left doesn't want (wars to defend the country against terrorism, both present and future).

    The left does this kind of stuff because the left can not credibly debate these issues on their own merits. The leftist position comes out the loser. So the left wheels out these morality plays in order to appeal to people's emotions, with the goal being hoped for support for the leftist policies.

    Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 6:17pm

36. "The left does this kind of stuff because the left can not credibly debate these issues on their own merits"

    ah, but you sjchermak, you're an intellectual powerhouse! just look at your posts, just oozing with sober analysis and keen wit.

    "We are at war, to fight terrorism. Necessary wars"

    do tell us (if you really wanna debate "on the merits") where the terrorism was in iraq before march of 2003.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 6:25pm

37. "The left"

    Hey, fools. Where do you live? What are you talking about?

    I see no mountains of skulls like in Cambodia. You make no sense, right wing fruitcakes, you make absolutely no sense.

    Blaming a left hat does nothing at aall.

    You sicken me, the country has gone down the tubes since Reagan or Noxon, or Bush, who knows which.

    In the 1980s we gave Saddam Hussein the supplies and knowledge and aided him in making bio-chemical weapons. We expected him to gas Iranians, instead he gassed his own, the Kurds, and we ran cover for him in the UN, preventing sanctions, preventing investigation. In Central America we coddled and encouraged those who buried students and doctors in mass graves.

    Grow up. You people are deranged fools who don't know a whit of what you rave about. You make no sense. You are lunatics.

    You disturb the body politic, you have zero sense of citizenship. You people should be exiled anywhere but in this country. Go away, live in Myanmar with those similar to you. You disturb any sense of decency. GROW UP ALREADY!

    Posted by luckyshow at 11/06/2009 @ 6:30pm

38. When my son went to the emergency room last Wednesday night in Aberdeen,So.Dakota he simply wanted to know why his little finger had turned purple. The football trainers told him to go the hospital. Do you think they knew he had a blood clot that would need emergency surgery? On top of that the only specialist in So.Dakota that does the procedure works at that hospital. Not every person lives dangerously or knowingly risks a body part. How would holistic treatment help this situation. Can you imagine the physical exertion and commitment a college football player must have. I saw the MRI pictures Friday night when I saw how the procedure was done by the performing specialist. So watch your tongue Santi when you babble about your holistic experience. Modern technology saved my son's finger and I am grateful for the dedicated doctor's work. We have insurance and all that but I am cringing somewhat about the coming bill. Fast forward to this week,one of my son's teammates is not going top play on Saturday,you know why? His insurance ran out and he can't afford to pay the premium. I guess he didn't want to chance an injury and perhaps bankruptcy at 23 years old. What a great country.

    Posted by whatozz at 11/06/2009 @ 6:36pm

39. "And no, most people do not need to see a doctor"

    (quote of the century)

    Posted by darladoon at 11/06/2009 @ 5:20pm

    Geez, glad no one told my Aa that when me (and my brother) came outta her ass-backwards. Phew!

    Thanks, Ma!

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/06/2009 @ 6:37pm

40. Aa?

    Ma.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/06/2009 @ 6:37pm

41. I have been promoted!!!!

    Phil McCrevice (haven't heard from him lately) has in the past called me an assclown.

    But tonight, Darladoon says I am an intellectual powerhouse.

    Next time Phil ever posts in and calls me an assclown, I will tell him to talk to Darladoon, that she doesn't agree.

    Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 6:40pm

42. Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Hey, there's sjchermak.

    sj, you shoulda seen the whopper Larry squeezed into a thread the other day. It took a crowbar to get that thing posted.

    MASTERS of the letter-limit.

    Posted by schnellerheinz at 11/06/2009 @ 6:40pm

43. Max Baucus is determined to set up a sweetheart deal for his insurance industry contributors. If the free-market is always best for everything, what fear do they have of competing with a supposedly inefficient federal insurance option? -- saw a cool site; Balkingpoints ; incredible satellite view of earth

    Posted by reg373 at 11/06/2009 @ 6:50pm

44. Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 6:17pm

    References to 'the left' - 13

    And thank God George W. was there for us, in all his wisdom. His hands off policy with the economy left us strong! It was those leftists' and their socialist agenda that is wreaking havoc on our world today... it's all their doing! (sarcasm for those of the humorless ilk).

    SJCHERMAK's Manichean view of the world allows him to simplify life to only the right and left... sort of like walking. It's possible that if he realized that life in our world wasn't so black and white he may actually have trouble with the old bipedal locomotion thing. One could only hope that his typing skills would abandon him as well. But I jest! I am for free speech! Postulation and pontification are a right, even if sanity has left the person himself.

    As well, his myopic understanding of the content of the article above allows him to free-wheel into a richly delusional world of far right rhetoric and misconceptions about socialism and the dark and insidious world of the leftist scourge. If the leftist position is the loser, then why are you not the winner? Santa Claus is a socialist apparatchik, I tell you!

    The lack of any comment about the shrieking and patently insane diatribes of Michelle Bachmann further enhance the ill refined ravings of this man as he fervently attempts to portray himself as a political intellectual, all the while lurching ever closer to a wild eyed recreation of the communist diatribe perfected in the darkest days of the Soviet Union.

    We have had this discussion before, to no avail.

    Also, Where were the protective measures against terrorist propaganda at Fort Hood? If I was in an airport and made any of these statements I'd be in a small closet waiting for my lawyer.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 7:03pm

45. ficheye,

    Somehow you think a person shooting people should be linked, or has some kind of connection, to health care debate?

    Or that it is even credible to link the two? That linking two separate issues, like Leslie Savan does, is NOT asinine?

    Must be.

    Remember, my posts ooze with sober analysis and keen wit.

    Who says so? Darladoon!!!

    Posted by sjchermak at 11/06/2009 @ 7:20pm

46. I'd go back to assclown if I were you. Then you wouldn't have so far to fall.

    She makes this statement in the last paragraph, comrade...

    "Rep. Virginia Foxx (R-NC), for instance, warned us last week that, "we have more to fear from the potential of that [health care reform] bill passing than we do from any terrorist right now in any country."

    Now, that's a respectable revelation.

    So, I think Leslie is wondering about the crazy supposition made by our esteemed Republican sycophants. It's really the other way around, the crazy parallel part anyway. She's actually commenting on it's lunacy, not trying to make a comparison per se. Except to just point out the babbling diatribe that is becoming more common from the gravel chewing and obsequious mob of right wing lunatics.

    The war and it's toll -

    The impact on veterans who also need health care -

    The effect on the families of the dead -

    The probability that this guy wouldn't have killed anyone if this hopeless approach to a 'war on terrorism' wasn't being waged -

    The cost in dollars of healthcare for americans compared to the cost of these two wars.

    You need to look up 'Manichean', assclown, and realize that it is still not black and white, this world of yours. It is a complex and interactive experience, much like the planet itself.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 7:53pm

47. It must be a feeling of defeat for thoughtful journalists to see a mob churning beneath every article they write.

    Posted by MichaelHawk at 11/06/2009 @ 8:27pm

48. It must be a feeling of defeat for thoughtful journalists to see a mob churning beneath every article they write. Posted by MichaelHawk at 11/06/2009 @ 8:27pm

    No, I think they like it. It's a lunatic barometer.

    It would be boring if everyone agreed with them.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/06/2009 @ 8:58pm

49. Most people never really need hospitalization or even to see a doctor in their lifetime. Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 2:27pm

    I would guesstimate that less than 5% of Americans go in the hospital each year when you add in all other causes. Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 5:17pm

    It needs to be far less the 5% to add up. .95^20 = .36 to the nearest percent. In just twenty years 5% adds up to rougly 64%. That is assuming that the rate of hospitalization does not increase as people age.

    Posted by MarkOller at 11/06/2009 @ 9:38pm

50. antisocialist-Natural stuff is wonderful,but there are quite a number of people who need doctors,prescriptions,etc.Your views on this subject are naive and non reality based.We no longer live in a natural world.In large part,the capitalists you promote destroyed it.The reason that medical science came into existence is because living a natural life in the modern world will kill you as was seen with the native Americans.It,also,did not work out so well for many people.Faith healing was a total failure,too.You are not a doctor or expert in health field and you do not need to be handing out medical advice.You have claimed to be an expert in numerous subjects,but that knowledge is not reflected in your posts.Your views about medical science show an amazing lack of knowledge of history and the numbers and types of health problems that exist and how many people get hurt and need a doctor.You are under the delusional belief that all one has to do is eat,right,exercise,and life will be peachy for you,but it is known from reality that that is frequently not the case.People who live healthy have been known to get every disease that comes around.And there are people,like myself,who have horribly abused their bodies,but have few medical problems and just keep on living.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/06/2009 @ 10:27pm

51. antisocialist,

    You need to find a time machine and go back to the 1950's. McCarthyism would suit you well.

    Posted by torasamu at 11/06/2009 @ 10:34pm

52. Never assume anything, least of all about crazy Muslim killers.

    7 dead , 12 hurt in Fort Hood shootings Report: 7 dead as many as a dozen hurt in Fort Hood shootings 2:16 PM CST, November 5, 2009

    Reports say as many as seven people have been killed and a dozen more hurt following a shooting at Fort Hood in Texas. The shooters were apparently wearing military uniforms according to MSNBC. New reports say there were three gunmen, one of whom has been captured. The other two are said to be loose on the sprawling Fort Hood grounds. Copyright © 2009, Tribune Interactive

    http://whatreallyhappened.com/content/7-dead-12-

    hurt-fort-hood-shootings

    Posted by MarkOller at 11/06/2009 @ 10:42pm

53. antisocialist-Who is railing against natural health?I don't see anyone doing that.You can be in favor of natural health and still go to doctors or take a prescription.Life does not have to be one extreme or another.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/06/2009 @ 10:51pm

54. Sick, elitist socialists like yourself cannot understand the anger that many millions of Americans feel as we see the Congress attempt their incremental socialist conversion of this constitutional republic. Posted by

    antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 12:12pm

    What is an elitist socialist? Is that like an egalitarian elitist? What is socialism? If it means any government role in the economy, the socialist utopia already exists in Somlia. Self-sufficient hermits are also totally non-socialistic.

    Posted by MarkOller at 11/06/2009 @ 10:52pm

55. What is an elitist socialist? Is that like an egalitarian elitist? What is socialism? If it means any government role in the economy, the socialist utopia already exists in Somlia. Self-sufficient hermits are also totally non-socialistic.

    Posted by MarkOller at 11/06/2009 @ 10:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Arguing while high is a bad idea. I mean, you still won the argument because you said something to anti, but wow.

    Posted by Milhaus at 11/06/2009 @ 11:25pm

56. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/06/2009 @ 10:27pm

    truer words have not been spoken today. i'm glad someone else put antisocialist in his place.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/07/2009 @ 12:29am

57. "Notice how Akin snarkily raises the volume on "under God" while dropping the too-bipartisan word "indivisible"? "

    Can we be sure the Hon. Mr. Akin's dropping of 'indivisible' was a mistake and not a deliberate choice? At least some of the TeaBagPartiers flirt with secession. To steal a line from the Hon. Ms Bachmann: maybe the MSM should investigate members of Congress for their views on the legitimacy of secession.

    Posted by EndlessSheriff at 11/07/2009 @ 12:30am

58. What a disjointed, slobbering at the mouth demonic rant you have threaded mS sAvEn! Just what kind of club or deadly weapon did you use to assualt your keyboard? I used to own a shotgun that wasn't near as great a "scattergun" as you have inflicted on everyone here!

    Don't think congress missed the 25,000 plus visitors filling their halls and knocking on their doors. Some drove from as far as houston with children just to put a face on the travesty the Obmanation admin. and Demoncrats are trying to force on them!

    Posted by BigPasture at 11/07/2009 @ 01:24am

59. ... the travesty the Obmanation admin. and Demoncrats are trying to force on them!

    Posted by BigPasture at 11/07/2009 @ 01:24am

    You still have that waste basket on your head.

    Those people wandering through those buildings are lost children without a clue as to why they are there. They insist that someone else is shredding the constitution but all the while it's really them.

    America. The land of the moorlocks and the eloi. Angry, meat eating conservatives and the gutless liberals who meekly wait for slaughter.

    And Michelle Bachmann. Talk about travesty.

    A turd in a skirt.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 02:25am

60. "Angry, meat eating conservatives and the gutless liberals who meekly wait for slaughter."

    ficheye...are you are moron or what?.Your best pal and supreme hypocrite, and porkmiester, Al Gore is who you need to direct that comment to. That barbaque chomping, pig eating hog has ingested more meat than....his wife...almost.Between the two of them they produce half of the world's CO2 in waste gases. She can't even be in public anymore unless they wheel her out on a forklift.

    As far as the article at hand...the men who defend this country could have no greater honor than to have its citizens trying to defend this country from the Socialists controlling the Whitehouse and the Congress. The tragedy is just that but like all wars, socially or on the battlefield you cannot disengage at the critical moment of the battle. That moment is now. If there is a complete HYPOCRACY it is that of Obama and Pelosi who in the face of this national tragedy will continue with the insidious vote while we morn this tragic event and death of american heros again at the hands of an Islamic jehadist. Obama will be slobering over the poor jehadist...just watch as the progressive liberals use this event as a protest to the afghan war...a war this scum bag coward never even fought in.

    Posted by Obamunut at 11/07/2009 @ 05:01am

61. Anti, is there nothing that will turn your heart of stone into one of compassion? What will it take to make you see that people are suffering and dying because they have no health care? I mean I'm just baffled by your not CAREING!!! Sigh....... .

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/06/2009 @ 5:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Okay. Tell you what, Lib. There are people less fortunate than you, starving in Africa.

    Sell your car and your house and donate the money to feed them.

    Then I will believe you are not a hypocrite.

    Posted by Elcobar at 11/07/2009 @ 07:37am

62. You know what makes Republicans look completely insane.

    It took Bush to leave office for them to to get angry and they act like the last 8 years never happened.

    In the Fox News mind America was going just great until Nov 4th 2008.

    The complete bankruptcy of America never happened in Sep 2008.

    They act as if Bush didn't lose 6 million jobs in a year.

    They act like we are not in this position due to the policies they implemented the last 8 years.

    Your policies failed miserably. Your foreign policy was a complete disaster.

    You would think looking at modern world history that 8 years would be long enough to win a war.

    Clinton did it.

    The insane part is that your angry at the Govt the REAL AMERICANS choose to clean up your mess.

    You destroyed the country and now refuse to help clean it up.

    I wish Obama would have come into office with a surplus instead of a complete disaster.

    News Flash.

    We have been angry for 8 years since Bush squandered the surplus, to the Iraq War, tax cuts for the rich, tried to make torture legal, illegally spied on American's, losing 6 million jobs and using the Constitution you so much love as toilet paper.

    Where the hell were you.

    Asking him can you wipe.

    Take a look in the mirror.

    Take a look in the mirror at the actual people who supported the actual destruction of our country.

    Republicans.

    We are still trying to dig ourselves out the ditch and all you want to do is push us back down.

    We could really care less that your angry.

    Especially since you just woke up and noticed we are screwed.

    Your yelling at the wrong person responsible.

    You need to go yell at yourself.

    Posted by Langx at 11/07/2009 @ 08:08am

63. Hey elcobar, blow it out your rear, is that "lib" enough for you?

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/07/2009 @ 08:59am

64. This man harbored extreme religious views alien to our country and was a ticking time bomb waiting to go off and should never have been allowed in our military.

    Here are some facts: Since our horrible 911 Islamic terrorists have murdered thousands of innocent, men, women and children on busses, trains, supermarkets, restaurants, synagogues and churches, and office buildings in more than twenty countries worldwide of which half of them are Moslem countries. This is not the fault of Israel or America which obviously upsets you Blame America First folks.

    There ARE people who have an eight century view of Islam and believe in murdering innocent people. There is no comparison to any other conflict or religion in the world today. Christians and Jews are not targeting innocent men, women, and children around the world. Please spare the liberal pablum about what America has done in Iraq. America ended the famine in Moslem Somalia, ended the genocide by the Serbs against Moslems in Kosovo, kicked the invading Iraqi's out of Moslem Kuwait, and freed fifty million Moslems from oppressive, brutal dictatorships in Iraq and Afghanistan. We should never have gone to war with Iraq but the rest of the world was more interested in Saddam's oil and his money from oil and cared little about his torture and murders of his own people.

    Right before Daniel Pearl, the American journalist, was beheaded in Pakistan his murderers made him say "I am an American and I am a Jew." Not one Moslem group in America condemned this horrific act nor do they condemn the slaughter of innocents in attacks against Israel by suicide bombers nor do they condemn the Moslem against Moslem attrocities being committed in Iraq. Christians and Jews don't behave this way.

    Posted by mjkoch at 11/07/2009 @ 09:59am

65. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/06/2009 @ 10:27pm

    truer words have not been spoken today. i'm glad someone else put antisocialist in his place.

    Posted by darladoon at 11/07/2009 @ 12:29am

    Now that's funny-stupid, but funny (as was the illogical post of IM)

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 10:54am

66. antisocialist-In what way was it illogical?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/07/2009 @ 11:08am

67. The groundbreaking 2003 medical report Death by Medicine, by Drs. Gary Null, Carolyn Dean, Martin Feldman, Debora Rasio and Dorothy Smith, 783,936 people in the United States die every year from conventional medicine mistakes. That's the equivalent of six jumbo jet crashes a day for an entire year. But where is the media attention for this tragedy?

    Where is the government support for stopping these medical mistakes before they happen?

    According to the study led by Null, which involved a painstaking review of thousands of medical records, the United States spends $282 billion annually on deaths due to medical mistakes, or iatrogenic deaths. And that's a conservative estimate; only a fraction of medical errors are reported, according to the study.

    According to a 1995 U.S. iatrogenic report, "Over a million patients are injured in U.S. hospitals each year, and approximately 280,000 die annually as a result of these injuries. Therefore, the iatrogenic death rate dwarfs the annual automobile accident mortality rate of 45,000 and accounts for more deaths than all other accidents combined." This report was issued 10 years ago, when America had 34 million fewer citizens and drug company scandals like the Vioxx recall were yet to occur. Today, health care comprises 15.5 percent of the United States' gross national product, with spending reaching $1.4 trillion in 2004.

    Of the 783,936 annual deaths due to conventional medical mistakes, about 106,000 are from prescription drugs, according to Death by Medicine. That also is a conservative number. Some experts estimate it should be more like 200,000 because of underreported cases of adverse drug reactions.

    http://www.naturalnews.com/009278.html

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 11:09am

68. antisocoialist-How much more time will you need to try and figure out why it was illogical?I haven't got all day.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/07/2009 @ 11:30am

69. Natural health alternatives and facts about "traditional healthcare"

    http://www.garynull.com/

    http://www.healthyeatingseries.com/overview.html

    http://www.alternativesforhealing.com/

    http://www.drweil.com/

    Welcome to our Alternative Medicine Center Natural Choices for Self-Managed Care

    http://tinyurl.com/4ull2

    http://www.self-sufficient-life.com/

    From the Univ of Maryland Medical Center Complementary Medicine

    <Recently, the World Health Organization estimated that 80% of people worldwide rely on herbal medicines for some aspect of their primary health care. In the last 20 years in the United States, increasing public dissatisfaction with the cost of prescription medications, combined with an interest in returning to natural or organic remedies, has led to an increase in the use of herbal medicines. In Germany, roughly 600 - 700 plant-based medicines are available and are prescribed by approximately 70% of German physicians. Nearly one-third of Americans use herbs, and it is estimated that in 1998 alone $4 billion was spent on herbal products in this country. Unfortunately, a recent study in the New England Journal of Medicine indicated that nearly 70% of individuals taking herbal medicines (the majority of which were well educated and had a higher-than-average income) were reluctant to reveal their use of complementary and alternative medicine to their doctors.>

    http://tinyurl.com/yfhkdwz

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 11:44am

70. If you think the Fort Hood massacre was horrible wait until 40 million more people are dumped onto our already inept healthcare system.

    Now that will be ugly.

    Posted by bleedingheart at 11/07/2009 @ 11:51am

71. antisocoialist-How much more time will you need to try and figure out why it was illogical?I haven't got all day.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/07/2009 @ 11:30am

    Traditional medicine is killing too many Americans AND giving poor health advice. Doctors are owned by the Drug companies. the Normal expected side effects of Prescription drugs are the 3rd leading cause of death in this country.

    Traditional medicine is far too expensive for the poor service that you receive and will not become affordable even with so-called "Medicare for All".

    It's better to have catastrophic coverage for truly serious events, while practicing natural health and paying cash to doctors or urgent care centers if you must have treatment. the savings from what most Americans pay now would be tremendous.

    My total out of pocket over the past 20 years which included 3 urgent care visits is less than $800.

    Your accusations about my "lack of knowledge of numbers and history and types of health problems" was completely without merit.

    As I've said, I have far more hours in education and training in natural health than almost all doctors. I was raised in a home that practiced natural health. It has been a passion of mine for my entire life.

    And what makes all of this so right for most Americans is that most of this information is easily accessible today because of the internet. The average American doesn't need as much study as I have. They don't need to spend over 50 hours on blood cell studies. I do it because I love science and natural health.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 11:55am

72. antisocialist-I've been waiting for years for you to back up your generalized claim that I know nothing about Christianity and am waiting again for you to back up your generalized claim with something specific.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/07/2009 @ 11:56am

73. antisocialist- That's nice,but what was illogical about my posts.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 11/07/2009 @ 11:58am

74. Posted by Obamunut at 11/07/2009 @ 05:01am

    I side with no one. Your post is illogical. You just don't like being clueless.

    I don't 'side' with Al Gore. I see you have a need to talk about him, so go ahead, let it out. I take that unwarranted attack on him to mean that you like Michelle Bachmann and her beliefs.

    I was criticizing conservatives who protest vague shit that they don't understand. Much like yourself.

    I'll do the same for liberals.

    We don't live in a democracy. We live in a brokerage. Get that straight. Also, there's no socialism and never will be. Unless our corporate masters wish it to be, that is.

    Conservatives are just starting to realize this as they, too, are being disenfranchised from the so called 'capitalist society' that they love. They are responding to it all in the wrong way. Much like yourself.

    You just don't like me complaining about clueless conservatives. Much like yourself. You are no better or any more informed that the liberals that you despise.

    Now go back to your witless commentary about Tipper Gore being fat. Bachmann is crazy... at least Tipper can lose weight. And who the hell cares?

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 12:10pm

75. http://conceptionsmasher.wordpress.com/

    Posted by Juanpa202 at 11/07/2009 @ 12:31pm

76. Posted by ibbleblibble at 11/06/2009 @ 1:38pm

    I'd just like to remind you that our filthy, degenerate and corrupt beyond sin financial system is NOT capitalism, it is an extortion system. I've been trying to start a company for 5 years making a patented product I designed which could make quite a bit of money or could at least keep some people employed. Once you start dealing with the reptilian bankster-MBA types you realize that's the LAST thing on their alleged minds.

    Most people in their hearts desire progress, employment and the advancement of civilization. Reptiles, on the other hand, desire only meat and to kill any and all competition. Since they have no virtue or talent of their own, this is the only way they can survive. This is one social Anti-Darwinian who has had enough being manipulated by worms and the evolutionary descendants of crocodiles, but that's what control of the money supply allows this filth to do.

    Posted by DejaVu at 11/07/2009 @ 1:39pm

77. We live in a brokerage.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 12:10pm

    OK.

    But if Obamacare is really about sticking it to the man and helping joe plumber get his appendix out despite himself, why?--

    1) HMOs putting up a rather weak fight.

    2) big pharma not fighting at all

    3) and this one really stinks - why was Tom Daschle Bam's first choice?

    I'm not buying into the idea that either party is trying to stick it to Big Health here.

    You're right, we certainly don't have "free markets" or "socialism." We have an uneasy alliance between the banking mafia, corporate monopolies, and statists. How the middle class can possibly continue to sustain all three without an endless lifeline from China I have no idea. The tea partiers and their party of no are standing up to ONE of those parasites, the one they traditionally trust the least. A start?

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 1:40pm

78. well Fish you are the all knowing and certainly speak in such....a meaningful way....that there is no question (in your mind at least) that you know of what you speak. From what I can tell however it is rambling nonsense and your points are babble.

    You mentioned meat eating conservatives knucklehead not me...I gave you a good example of why your comment is meaningless and stupid, thats all...because one of the biggest rotund meat eaters on earth is one of the biggest, and popular liberals on earth. As you siad it is meaningless and coming from you it sure was.

    Capitalism, conservatism and our constitution are still strong Fish....it is a matter of time..less than a year that we will be purging ourselves of the progressives who would rather that there were no constitution, or capitalism or conservatives in this country. As seen in VA and NJ fishy...that ain't going to happen. Now I don't want to overload your brain fishy so why not relax for the afternoon and watch a game or something.Maybe you can come up with something stupid to say later tonight.

    Posted by Obamunut at 11/07/2009 @ 1:52pm

79. The tea partiers and their party of no are standing up to ONE of those parasites, the one they traditionally trust the least. A start? Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 1:40pm

    I can agree with that to a degree. In some ways it's a start. But a lot of the anger at these rallies is being misplaced. And please (this goes for obamanut as well), I am not Obama defender as of yet. He seems to either be effectively stymied by 'the brokerage', or he is just a business-as-usual politician and there is only a superficial difference between Republicans and Democrats in that analysis.

    I have a hard time with the conservatives scapegoating liberals though, when it is in ALL of our interests to realize that we need the set aside sexual issues, which create confusion and uncertainty (i.e.; abortion, gay rights, etc) and focus for now on the financial situation and the health care debacle - whichever way that's going to go.

    It's idealistic of me, I know, but if the angry conservatives and the complacent liberals can find this common ground of being 'disenfranchised', we may erase some of the 'left and right' politic and work, to a degree, as a unitized force. Improbable? It may very well be. The only way OUT? Yes.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 2:08pm

80. If I remember correctly, a real crisis usually trumps unrealistic anxiety and even the looniest of loonies often snaps to and copes with what's going on before retreating into neurosis or worse. Michele Bachmann and her "friends" have faded into the background and the real disaster has come vividly forward. Without coming to conclusions about a man now in a coma and unlikely to be charged with the outrage unless he recovers entirely, this disaster sends a message about "stop loss" and about who we are as a nation -- over-armed and prickly.

    Posted by misskaren at 11/07/2009 @ 2:14pm

81. Maybe you can come up with something stupid to say later tonight.

    Posted by Obamunut at 11/07/2009 @ 1:52pm

    Give up the struggle. Your body is trying to reject your brain.

    Your feelings are hurt because I said something about the conservatives. You want me to be a liberal at that point because you don't know what to do with that information. I am not. But, if it makes you feel better, rail on. I think both sides are screwed up. Complacent liberals and vociferous conservatives with misplaced priorities. Socialism my ass. If the public option takes effect there are possibly only 2 to 3% of Americans who will need it.

    Anyway, I don't watch sports. Check that one off. Olympic sports, but that's different.

    And I think that you have the hots for Bachmann.

    ps: you can practice your sarcasm on me if you like, but it needs some work. And remember... comma's are free... use them at will.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 2:23pm

82. I agree on the culture wars and would like to see the gay marriage issue put to rest. (Legalization is the only way that happens.)

    I'd also like to see a softening, not necessarily in this irrelevant magazine, but in the MSM, of the extrmemly hyperbolic characterizations of the middle america cons. It is the hate-mongering combined with the appointments of radicals to cabinet positions, the occasional prasings of Mao that create the much-maligned "fear" response.

    I have never been a "rightwinger." I'm a cosmo lib in New York City and the depictions I see here scare me.

    There is a practical reason to tone it down, hard as that may be for some. By kicking sand in the cons faces, the Left only gives them a pass to not clean their own house.

    You're asking people to accept a larger role for gov't in health care. and you have people in gov't praising Mao and media cheerleaders hanging signs on peoples necks and then they get worried where it all may lead and you hit them again for that.

    Much as Bam makes me queasy sometimes, I have never regretted that he won, because the republicans needed to lose. But so far it looks like with monstrosities like the stimulus to point at, the Repubs will not be forced to soul search in order to take back the WH in '12.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 2:39pm

83. Hey gangP, if this magazine is so irrelevant, why the heck do you post here?

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/07/2009 @ 3:17pm

84. I am an irrelevant human being Denise.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 3:25pm

85. Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 2:39pm

    I'm with you gang. Almost exactly. If that's a term.

    As far as this magazine, it's greatest attribute is that it is a virtually uncensored blog. A lot of the articles are good... some are hastily written. But I appreciate the existence of the forum itself. (I'm still wondering how someone got past the letter limit the other day in a post that parodies antisocialist. Pretty weird).

    I might spend a little too much time being sarcastic, but I'm human.

    My biggest obsession is this 'are you a conservative or a liberal' thing. I can't quite buy into it, much to the frustration of chermak.

    It seems that once you commit to liberalism entirely, something comes up that makes you think "Well, I'm not for that, so I have to adjust my thinking on the issue because the parameters have changed". And the same goes for conservatism. it's just hard for me to throw in with a 'party' of people when I might be expected to accept a whole program of thought, some of which I have doubts about. Thoughts? Am I just being conveniently uncommitted?

    One of the biggest points is this: If liberals got focused and made as much of a ruckus as conservatives do, got more organized, they would gain some serious traction in this America. And I attribute that to complacency. Someone tell me I'm wrong, and why.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 3:53pm

86. What would libs do? Somebody has to take on the Finance mafia. Might as well be the Dems. They are going to hurt you, but in the end you'll benefit.

    Why do they get 0% interest, but they can charge the Jefferson's 20% on their mortgage? I seriously think you could get bipartisan support from people across the spectrum on the sections of the economy that are basically fascist or monopolistic.

    Energy is run my monopolies. Con Ed: monopoly. Hard to believe that we will ever achieve enough flex to get off the Saudi oil tit as long as energy is run by a few monopolies.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 4:16pm

87. I talked to a small businessman today and he asked me this,"where is the money coming from in pro sports"? With companies going out of business,advertising dollars shrinking up,who is footing the bill? Then he said where is the money coming from period?Interesting question's don't you think.Sounds like the economic message is garbled to many segments of our society.

    Posted by whatozz at 11/07/2009 @ 4:33pm

88. Sounds like the economic message is garbled to many segments of our society. Posted by whatozz at 11/07/2009 @ 4:33pm

    Good point.

    There is going to be hell to pay when the only advertisers for the super bowl are for 'Depends'.

    On the other hand, when the big money guys get out of the three big sports, football, baseball, and basketball, maybe we'll get back to having normal teams instead of teams formed by who can get the most money to buy the best players. I'd start watching baseball again.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 5:24pm

89. When I was a boy, we used home remedies and when they did not work, we went to the revival tent and asked the Good Lord Je-sus to help us with our afflictions. I tell you, the first time the preacher smacked me upside my face, told me to drink some strychnine and tossed a few angry poisonous serpents my way to wrestle, I learned quickly that one does not ask the Lord for healing on trifling matters. Instead, I asked nan-nan, and she always could cook up something that would fix what was ailing me.

    A child swallows a tack? Feed them sauerkraut. Have a toothache? Swab it down with clove oil. Whether you have wrinkles (apply egg whites to the face) or rash (turmeric), nan-nan always had a solution.

    Back in my day, you did not go to see the doctor. He came to see you, and you only called for him when nan-nan said so. Since nan-nan died long ago, I haven't called for a doctor since, and I'm as healthy as a mule. No arthritis in these fingers as you can tell by the deluge of postings I contribute to The Nation every day. Why I am not enjoying my retirement with my friends and family rather than needling all you commie loving hippies, is a story for another day.

    The point I want to make here is that you should not call for medical help unless nan-nan tells you to call him (and don't try to confuse the issue by talking about lady doctors). Medical doctors are always expensive, and it doesn't matter whether you are paying the insurance companies, the government or the doctors directly - know that every time you do so you are selling a tiny bit of your soul to the Devil.

    Traditional medicine has a long history of association with Devil worship. Ever hear of Dr. Faustus? Dr. Jekyll? Dr. Moreau? Dr. Mengele? Dr. George Hill Hodel? The worst crimes in humanity have been perpetuated by doctors, and I will not give more than a passing mention to the long standing traditions of testing new, often ineffective and poisonous therapies on orphans, prisoners, mental patients, the homeless, natives and others. Why not leech out some of my blood, good man? Or perhaps drill a hole in my head? The only time there's going to be a hole in my head is when you commies take over the government and put me up against the wall for leading the resistance. On second thought, maybe I'll just move to Honduras.

    Now, I know you are going to talk about the many lives saved with vaccines, the development of antibiotics, the potential of medical means of population control, the uses of simple tests for pregnancy (I prefer killing rabbits, myself) and other conditions, advances in surgical technique that can replace some Muslim's dark Satanic heart with a good Christian one, but have you thought about the problems this is going to present at the Resurrection?

    When I read Mark 12:18-27, Jesus's message about marriage is crystal clear. But, if we apply it to internal organs? Who's heart will it be when the dead all rise from the graves and join the living? Clearly, this is a Satanic plot to undermine the clear, sharp angles of my theology. Get behind me Satan!

    Then, there's the issue that medical science, besides being Satanic, involves taking money away from the wars that are necessary to reduce our undesirable unemployed population and may in fact save them from a faster entrance into heaven. Lord knows I'm ready to go the moment G-d calls, and everyone else should be too. No need for doctors to siphon off money to save people and subject them to Satan, when these people should be doing the Lord's Good Work, killing Muslims and rapidly gaining entrance to Heaven. I am still checking as to whether there will be any virgins in the Christian heaven. I'll report updates here from the scholarship as they become available.

    I believe that these is no greater freedom or use of liberty than to sacrifice one's life for a cause. For me that cause is acai berry juice. All those pharmaceutical companies offering you medicines, they are all snake oil salesman. Trust me, what America needs is to be drinking acai berry juice, preferably acai berry juice purchased from me. Acai berry juice combined with eating the fruits and vegetables from some Muslim you've recently killed and using corn cobs as toilet paper is what we need in order to be a truly liberty loving nation, once again.

    Posted by antis0cialist at 11/07/2009 @ 6:10pm

90. Whoever wrote the last post can perhaps heed this advice. When you feel the need to be by yourself go the room with rubber walls. That way you won't injure yourself too badly. On the other hand maybe you do want to harm yourself.

    Posted by whatozz at 11/07/2009 @ 6:19pm

91. Posted by whatozz at 11/07/2009 @ 6:19pm

    Did you notice by how much that post exceeded 1800 characters?

    Posted by lrjones4 at 11/07/2009 @ 6:48pm

92. somebody hijacked larry's handle

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 6:49pm

93. somebody hijacked larry's handle

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 6:49pm

    It almost has to be someone with the Nation who can override the system.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 8:07pm

94. It was Mr Mustard, in the library, with the candlestick.

    Posted by Denise29 at 11/07/2009 @ 8:42pm

95. It almost has to be someone with the Nation who can override the system.

    Posted by antisocialist at 11/07/2009 @ 8:07pm

    Even though it is somewhat amusing, I'll bet someone on the Nations staff, without permission, has taken it on themselves to write these posts about Larry. Otherwise it's a hacker, who may now have access to all of our real names and addresses.

    It may be prudent, Larry, to actually write a snail mail to the Nation and point this out to them. The letter limit is a good device. It keeps people (except chermak) from going on too long.

    If someone knows a better way to directly contact them it would be the fair thing to do.

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 9:09pm

96. Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 9:09pm

    Or, it could just be someone with a rudimentary knowledge of how to use the Internet using Firefox with the NoScript extension, understands that when number 0 looks like the letter o and has a little imagination. But, hey, what do I know?

    Posted by antis0cialist at 11/07/2009 @ 10:00pm

97. Posted by antis0cialist at 11/07/2009 @ 10:00pm

    Hey! This is my community, dude. It's not fair to have someone circumvent the usual protocols. I value having access to the sometimes madcap world of the Nation's blog space.

    I mean, they could have permuted your name and just made two or three concurrent posts and no one would have been the wiser, except they would have known it wasn't you by observing the exchange of an 'o' for a zero.

    Freedom of speech is the best thing about this blog - and preserve it's integrity we must. Until we become a socialist totalitarian state, of course ;-)

    Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 10:18pm

98. You're a good egg fish. Those tactics are deceptive and undemocratic and shouldn't be used against any poster, regardless of their politics.

    If it's one of the interns, Nation staff should show them the door. Whatever the problem, it should be resolved.

    Posted by gangpapist at 11/07/2009 @ 10:34pm

99. Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 10:18pm

    I am sure it has occurred to you that I must be a member of the community myself in order to know enough to parody antisocialist as I have and part of what makes the parody work is the name. Any of the parody posts, done under your name for instance, would be more confusing than funny.

    And while we are talking about freedom of speech, isn't it a valuable form of speech to be able to do this parody, in this way? I understand your point, but do you? You are essentially advocating for self-censorship and calling it fair play, integrity or some form of gentleman/woman's contract, all in the name of freedom of speech. There's some deep irony lurking in that argument.

    As for you, gangpapist, who knew the guy posting his address (fodder for identity theft) and calling liberals cowards for not attacking him has such a highly developed sense of fair play? Let's just say that I have nothing to fear from The Nation.

    Posted by antis0cialist at 11/07/2009 @ 11:59pm

100. antisocialist you are so angry.

     Go back to Fox News, please. It sounds like you belong next to other fear-mongers like Glen Beck.

     Posted by malmassa at 11/08/2009 @ 01:04am

101. Posted by antis0cialist at 11/07/2009 @ 11:59pm

     You must know that I have no problem with the content of your parody. In fact, you are kind of creative. I like the sarcasm and lampooning that you are doing.

     But it is your methodism that subverts the constraints that we all have to work within that is curious. It's a hack. And by being uncomfortable with that I drew you out, did I not? Which breaks the illusion that I had which said that you might be a cut above, humor wise. Now I see that you are quick to take offense when, really, none is given.

     I thought it was unfair to break with the letter limit like you did, that's all. I'm more concerned with hackers in general. They make people paranoid that other things might be happening. You wanted to show us that you were powerful by breaking the posting constraints when you could have just made two or three separate posts. No one would have even blinked then.

     Asking me if I got my own point... well, since I made it, yes I do. And saying that you are a member of the community, too? That's correct. I wasn't even ranking on you except mildly. No one's leaving you out. Come on in from the cold, brother!

     I have no problem except with you needing to 'break' into the site like you did. That's all I was saying. But if everyone is going to be the enemy, what fun is that? We are fellow lampooners. But using a hack got everyone's attention in a way that detracted slightly from the point of your humor. We will continue on as we were.

     (It's an added bonus that malmassa thinks that you ARE the original. Ha!)

     Posted by ficheye at 11/08/2009 @ 01:30am

102. And as far as freedom of speech goes... shouldn't we all have the same rights?

     If we did what you are doing someone really annoying could just fill up the entire page. Is that really a function of 'freedom of speech'? That is where the irony really is... you don't realize that you are making yourself 'more equal' than everyone else by employing a work around. If we all follow the constraints set by the system then we are all working from the same vantage point.

     But, by all means, have fun.

     Posted by ficheye at 11/08/2009 @ 01:43am

103. Desperate indeed. Turns out that raving like an unconfined nut isn't such a great political strategy. Whocoodanode? Oh... and I shouldn't neglect to send a big "screw you" to all our hard right "friends" who are reading this blog: yeah, that means you, troglodyte. Go back to freeping "Free" Republic where you belong.

     Posted by vanflatz at 11/08/2009 @ 05:17am

104. Posted by antisocialist at 11/06/2009 @ 5:42pm |

     What should a woman do to avoid complications with a breach birth?

     (home C-section DIY kit)

     What healthcare choice should one make to avoid TB?

     (recommendation to never leave the house forthcoming)

     What healthcare choice should a person make to avoid succumbing to cancer because they were born to parents who gave them BRCA1 or MSH6 genes?

     (countdown to Monavie advert in 3...2..1...)

     What healthcare choice should Glenn Beck have made to avoid his appendicitis?

     (does your snake oil relieve one of having a vermiform appendix?)

     What healthcare choice should the victims who survived the attack at Fort Hood have made?

     Your ignorance and ability to shield yourself from reality is par excellence, Pastor.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 08:26am

105. Posted by ficheye at 11/08/2009 @ 01:43am

     "And as far as freedom of speech goes... shouldn't we all have the same rights?"

     You are just as free as the AntiZEROcialist to google "NoScript page-level surrogates". It's not his fault The Nation has weak web fu and relies on (oh, the irony) google-analytics for their web tracking needs.

     And, no, it's not me...while I have the programming skills, I sorely lack the amazing parody abilities of Herr Zero.

     "I'm more concerned with hackers in general. They make people paranoid that other things might be happening."

     As you should be...the functionality he's (ab)using is designed to avoid just such shenanigans on the part of webslingers.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 09:06am

106. We continue to celebrate death and give medals to people who have participated in the total destruction of two countries, killing thousands of innocent people, women, children, old men, teenagers etc... to avenge a criminal act by eighteen insane foreign citizens. They weren't even citizens of the countries we invaded. And we wonder why one of our apparently highly educated G.I's goes berserk and takes out his rage on his fellow G.I's.

     As long as we celebrate the excessive testosterone as maleness, courage and intelligence and discount any conversation of celebrating human life as cowardice, we will continue to experience mindless behavior. We have created an unwindable situation in the middle east with a simultaneous civil war and gorilla war by subsidizing corruption and mafia like groups.

     The same idiots who voted against the health care bill are those same shills that voted for this stupid war and the wall street bail out, so I wouldn't put much hope in this health care bill yet.

     Posted by julien38 at 11/08/2009 @ 09:17am

107. On the other hand, when the big money guys get out of the three big sports, football, baseball, and basketball, maybe we'll get back to having normal teams instead of teams formed by who can get the most money to buy the best players. I'd start watching baseball again. Posted by ficheye at 11/07/2009 @ 5:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     you are railing against the wind. the big money will always go where the most consumers are. we will never go back to the time when baseball stars had other paying jobs in the off season.

     if you don't care to watch beiseball try soccer. the english league is entertaining as is the UEFA cup Christiano Rinaldo is more fun to watch than A-Rod, Manchester United as much fun as the Yankees. Real Madrid has spent even more than the Yanks to get the best players.

     Posted by emile duBois at 11/08/2009 @ 09:21am

108. Posted by julien38 at 11/08/2009 @ 09:17am |

     I think you meant unwinnable and guerilla...most apes can't fire automatic weapons (thankfully).

     Would that Hasan had turned his weapon on himself alone.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 09:24am

109. Posted by ficheye at 11/08/2009 @ 01:30am

     "But it is your methodism that subverts the constraints that we all have to work within that is curious. It's a hack. And by being uncomfortable with that I drew you out, did I not?"

     The truth is that I never gave it a second thought. It just happens to be a feature of the browser I use, and it was convenient in this case because it allowed for a longer post. I was surprised it warranted any comment and thought someone would figure it out.

     The real reason I responded to you was to cut off the fears that forum database of The Nation has been hacked. It costs a lot of money to do a security audit, and even though anyone qualified to do one would know in a second I used the system as designed, I'd rather save Katrina the bother. It also appears that some posters, such as yourself, are worried about your real name and email being exposed, so I wanted to put those to rest at the same time.

     If you had not drawn me out, I would have to be so explicit in how I did what I did, and there would be a smaller probability of copycats. But, I think your fears about everyone doing it and destroying the forum have as much ground to stand on as your other speculations.

     Posted by antis0cialist at 11/08/2009 @ 09:47am

110. The fact remains, although the U.S. government cannot and will not admit it publicly, that Moslems in America believe that all other religions are infidels.

     Moslem groups in America remained silent in the aftermath of 911, silent after Daniel Pearl, an American journalist, was beheaded in Pakistan after being forced to say "I am an American and I am a Jew", and they have been silent and not uttered a word about the Moslem on Moslem atrocities being committed by the thousands in Iraq. They are indeed more loyal to their faith than to America.

     Posted by mjkoch at 11/08/2009 @ 09:52am

111. To snow: No I meant guerrilla war and unwindable, like we can't get out. All neatly funded by loans from China, a communist regime, 2.4 trillion and climbing. Apparently these apes have learned how to make explosives out of animal dung. You don't see the irony in all this?

     Posted by julien38 at 11/08/2009 @ 10:27am

112. What healthcare choice should Glenn Beck have made to avoid his appendicitis?

     (does your snake oil relieve one of having a vermiform appendix?)

     What healthcare choice should the victims who survived the attack at Fort Hood have made?

     Your ignorance and ability to shield yourself from reality is par excellence, Pastor.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 08:26am

     You have misrepresented what I stated.

     I never stated that no one will need hospitalization or a doctors service. I said most will not, and the statistics validate my statement. Only a small percentage of Americans each year are admitted into hospitals.

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 10:49am

113. anti, thats because only a small amount of people can afford to go to the hospital, I bet that number would climb for routine hospitalizations, tonsils and gallbladders, hernias, etc, people wait until the last minute because they can't afford it. As far as doctors visits, well a whole lot of people avoid them like the plague (no pun intended) because they don't have the money. My son got h1n1 and it cost him $100.00 just to get antibiotics for strep throat, because he had to go to the clinic first.

     Posted by Denise29 at 11/08/2009 @ 11:18am

114. But, I think your fears about everyone doing it and destroying the forum have as much ground to stand on as your other speculations.

     Posted by antis0cialist at 11/08/2009 @ 09:47am

     antis 0 cialist: I guess no one else cares.

     As I said before, I was only mildly critical of your method, not the content.

     Posted by ficheye at 11/08/2009 @ 11:21am

115. anti, thats because only a small amount of people can afford to go to the hospital, I bet that number would climb for routine hospitalizations, tonsils and gallbladders, hernias, etc, people wait until the last minute because they can't afford it. As far as doctors visits, well a whole lot of people avoid them like the plague (no pun intended) because they don't have the money. My son got h1n1 and it cost him $100.00 just to get antibiotics for strep throat, because he had to go to the clinic first.

     Posted by Denise29 at 11/08/2009 @ 11:18am

     Denise,

     You don't have any documentation to back that up and it simply isn't true. In California for instance, MediCal will pay for all those surgeries if you are low to moderate income.

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 11:42am

116. Maybe in California, but where I'm from you can't get medicaid unless your practically destitute.

     Posted by Denise29 at 11/08/2009 @ 11:48am

117. Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 10:49am |

     "I never stated that no one will need hospitalization or a doctors service. I said most will not, and the statistics validate my statement. Only a small percentage of Americans each year are admitted into hospitals."

     And if someone in that small percentage doesn't make my income, but does need hospitalization, and doesn't have health insurance, they're liable to die or go bankrupt from the experience.

     Your baseless conjecture is that people can be prescient about every healthcare need they may have in the future thus obviating the need for purchasing health insurance.

     It's BS...stem to stern.

     http://www.cms.hhs.gov/reportstrustfunds/ downloads/tr2009.pdf

     What do you think the Medicare HI Trust Fund spent $130B on in 2008?

     So which is it...Medicare is going to go bankrupt...or most people don't need hospitalization?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 12:16pm

118. $100.00 to go to the clinic, where its suppose to be less expensive, good g-d people, how bad does it have to get before we get HC?

     Posted by Denise29 at 11/08/2009 @ 12:32pm

119. How about a bad/good scenario. My wife had an allergic reaction to an unknown source at home She called her doctor who told her to go the emergency room.The cost was $3000,but she had fulfilled her deductible and emergency visits were paid 100%.You have to give the providers credit if you give them the razz like I do.

     Posted by whatozz at 11/08/2009 @ 3:36pm

120. What do you think the Medicare HI Trust Fund spent $130B on in 2008?

     So which is it...Medicare is going to go bankrupt...or most people don't need hospitalization?

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 12:16pm

     Both statements are true.

     What percentage of the population? quit sidestepping the issue.

     In 2006, 44% of deaths in this country were people 80 or older. Add in 12.2% more for those 75-79. What do you think would be the medical costs and likelihood of hospitalization within that age group.

     this country has become fixated on keeping people alive at any cost, especially when the govt is paying the bill.

     Also, the reason for the bankruptcy is that SS and Medicare are ponzi schemes and there aren't enough people to pay in to support those who go in earlier...unless we raise taxes about 400-500%

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 4:00pm

121. Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 4:00pm |

     Unless there's one guy going to the doctor 308M times...I'd say a fairly large percentage...

     <Patients in the United States made an estimated 1.1 billion visits to physician offices and hospital outpatient and emergency departments in 2006, an average of four visits per person per year, according to new health care statistics released today by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.>

     So...400% saw a doctor, went to an ER, or stayed in the hospital.

     http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr005.pdf

     34,854,000 hospital discharges in 2006....11.3% had at least an overnight stay...with the average being 4.8 days.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 4:51pm

122. Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 4:00pm |

     Since you'll probably ask...

     13M of the visits were for old farts...the other 21M were people 65 and under.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 4:54pm

123. 34,854,000 hospital discharges in 2006....11.3% had at least an overnight stay...with the average being 4.8 days.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 4:51pm

     That's more than I thought but still just over 10% of the population. Which means that my statement still holds true.

     and your other data about doctor visits doesn't negate my claim which many honest doctors share; most doctor visits are unneeded and drive up costs.

     And let's get back to some of my earlier data.

     approx 2 million are hospitalized because of normal expected reactions to prescription drugs. How many more times that number had to see their doctor because of reactions to prescriptions? Some estimates are 11-20 million.

     How many people would not need hospitalization or doctor visits if they didn't suffer from Type II diabetes, kidney disease, hypertension and other cardiovascular diseases, and cancers, all brought on by lifestyle choices?

     I will stick with the views of those minority of physicians who have left the corrupted and broken system for natural health which leads to LESS COST AND HEALTHIER LIVES.

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 5:00pm

124. Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 4:00pm |

     "In 2006, 44% of deaths in this country were people 80 or older. Add in 12.2% more for those 75-79."

     <The preliminary number of deaths in the United States in 2006 was 2,425,900, a 22,117 decrease from the 2005 total.>

     So 56% of 2.4M == 1.4M....out of 34M inpatient visits.

     "What do you think would be the medical costs and likelihood of hospitalization within that age group."

     It's roughly $10k/yr vs ~$1500/yr for younguns.

     "this country has become fixated on keeping people alive at any cost, especially when the govt is paying the bill."

     So die quickly and quietly then?

     (okay, but YOU have to break the news to Grandma...death-paneller!)

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 5:12pm

125. Posted by antisocialist at 11/08/2009 @ 5:00pm |

     "approx 2 million are hospitalized because of normal expected reactions to prescription drugs. How many more times that number had to see their doctor because of reactions to prescriptions? Some estimates are 11-20 million."

     I actually agree with you about our over-medicated society...I don't take antibiotics unless I have a fever over 103 degrees and 99% of the medications I ingest are Ibu or my daily caffeine fix, but 2M out of 34M == 6%.

     11-20M out of 1100M visits == 1.8%...that's pretty good, considering.

     My position isn't that intelligent lifestyle choices don't contribute to better (and cheaper) healthcare, but no amount of not smoking and not eating crap is going to fix someone's muscular distrophy, congenital heart disorder, or broken hip.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/08/2009 @ 5:22pm

126. Correct but what night of the week do you not see a Cialis commercial? what industry is advertising in your local paper,Time magazine, and on the internet.Big Pharma that's who and is their profit going down?Go to an emergency room and you see drugs dispensed at a blistering pace. Modern health care is not like a drug free workplace.

     Posted by whatozz at 11/08/2009 @ 6:16pm

127. Posted by whatozz at 11/08/2009 @ 6:16pm |

     "Correct but what night of the week do you not see a Cialis commercial?"

     Each and every one...thank you TiVo.

     "what industry is advertising in your local paper,Time magazine, and on the internet."

     What's a local...paper?!

     "Big Pharma that's who and is their profit going down?"

     No, but neither is this priapism.

     "Go to an emergency room and you see drugs dispensed at a blistering pace."

     I'll grant you the volume is great, but the velocity leaves a bit to be desired (tap, tap, tap).

     "Modern health care is not like a drug free workplace."

     In some cases, this is a good thing...but when we medicate instead of choosing exercise or diet changes...not so much.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/09/2009 @ 08:14am

128. I have been to the emergency room too often in the past 2 weeks.Pain killers,blood thinners,etc. do not seem to be in short supply.Do you need something was a popular question.There is no generic equivalent for Lipitor. What a cash register game and we wonder why 6 months later we are trying to get out of the starting gate on health care?

     Posted by whatozz at 11/09/2009 @ 08:32am

129. two different shooting incidents dominated news headlines. The US Army Fort Hood shooter was a psychiatrist who likely self-medicated with psych drugs, and the Orlando shooter has now been confirmed to be on psychotropic drugs.

     Read the disturbing truth about psych drugs and violence right here: http://www.naturalnews.com/027425_drugs_drugs_violence.html

     Posted by dont_know at 11/09/2009 @ 11:41am

130. 'The Nation's ' own columnist blogger John Nichols idiotically stated that this had nothing to do with Islam and is a sign of 'Islamophobia'. Really? John boy you should pull your blog in this matter now that you know 'Army shooter's mosque run by Muslim Mafia Islamic center preaches violent jihad, Shariah law' and he shouted 'aluha akhbar' when he jumped on the table to begin killing innocents.

     The fuck it didn't have anything to do with the sick, violent religion! You are a stupid bastard. Print a retraction.

     Posted by JohnTid at 11/09/2009 @ 11:45am

131. Hey fuck you bitch! You don't know your ass from a hole in the ground. You're so stupid you couldn't pour sand out of a boot if the instructions were printed on the bottom.

     Does the phrase 'too stupid to find your ass with both hands and a flashlight' sound familiar?

     I should.... it fits perfectly.

     Posted by JohnTid at 11/09/2009 @ 11:49am

132. Moslem groups in America remained silent in the aftermath of 911, silent after Daniel Pearl, an American journalist, was beheaded in Pakistan after being forced to say "I am an American and I am a Jew", and they have been silent and not uttered a word about the Moslem on Moslem atrocities being committed by the thousands in Iraq. They are indeed more loyal to their faith than to America.

     Posted by mjkoch at 11/08/2009 @ 09:52am

     That statement is simply untrue. Many, MANY moderate Muslim groups both here and abroad denounced what happened on 9/11 and the death of Daniel Pearl. I have a few Muslim friends and they were outraged! The fact you didn't hear about it in the MSM is because they (the MSM) were more interested in drumming up American "patriotism" for an illegal war in Iraq than showing both sides of a very contentious issue.

     Which is typical of modern journalism (and I use the term loosely). Everybody just wants to be first with the story, regardless of whether the story is accurate or "fair and balanced."

     Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/09/2009 @ 12:50pm

133. No, but neither is this priapism.

     Posted by snowball777 at 11/09/2009 @ 08:14am

     Funny. I like it.

     Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/09/2009 @ 12:56pm

134. How many moderate muslims can you fit on the head of a pin?

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/09/2009 @ 1:13pm

135. I'm a stupid bastard. Posted by JohnTid at 11/09/2009 @ 11:45am | ignore this person | warn this person

     Posted by emile duBois at 11/09/2009 @ 1:59pm

136. Was the Ft.Hood massacre a hate crime?

     Posted by bleedingheart at 11/09/2009 @ 5:55pm

137. the crown of creation, a soldier, ran amok. big deal, Americans regularly do so, in church, at the office, in school, well just about anywhere. it's mostly the easy access to guns.

     I know what let's do. let's blame the muslims. we usually blame the jews but this time we'll make an exception.

     Posted by emile duBois at 11/09/2009 @ 6:21pm

138. Posted by emile duBois at 11/09/2009 @ 6:21pm

     There's not a third way? We can't criticize jihadist thought when, in fact, we now have evidence that it was in play? We can only either blame "the Muslims" or pretend that jihad had nothing to do with it? Talk about simplistic.

     A couple days ago a poster who described herself as Muslim/Arab said that her father served proudly in the military, and asked that the murders not be used to stereotype Muslims/Arabs.

     She got two responses: I told her that as a vet myself I served with some outstanding Muslim/Arab-American patriots. A Jew-hater who calls himself "SmashIsrael" basically called her father an uncle tom and advised her not to sell out her "brothers and sisters." So there you have it. The state of The Nation is that in a blog featuring a tortured attempt to smear Americans with the Islamophobe label, a patriotic Arab/Muslim American new (I think) to the site, puts in her bid for understanding, gets one affirmative response from myself, the evil veteran/ rightwinger relative to this milieu, and then has her family insulted by a lefty, and that was the only lefty response, nobody came to her defense.

     But this crowd has the moral magnitude to decide what kind of country we are.

     Posted by gangpapist at 11/09/2009 @ 6:43pm

139. It was fascinating to see Barack Obama warning us not to leap to conclusions about the killings at Fort Hood, Texas-- after the way he leaped to conclusions over the arrest of Henry Louis Gates, when he knew less about the facts than we already know about the massacre at Fort Hood. Thanks to Thomas Sowell for that brilliant observation of Presidental bias and hypocrisy!

     Posted by BigPasture at 11/10/2009 @ 12:44am

140. Thanks to Santi and Big Pissture ,two upstanding Christians. If you two are examples of "good" Christians what are examples of bad ones.It is a religious war isn't it .Who has a better religion and a better God. When are religious people going to stop the mine is better than yours rhetoric?

     Posted by whatozz at 11/10/2009 @ 09:01am

141. Thanks to Santi and Big Pissture ,two upstanding Christians. If you two are examples of "good" Christians what are examples of bad ones.It is a religious war isn't it .Who has a better religion and a better God. When are religious people going to stop the mine is better than yours rhetoric?

     Posted by whatozz at 11/10/2009 @ 09:01am

     You have it backwards.

     Islam declared war on Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism and other faiths in 632 AD. They then declared that this religious war must result in the Islamic conquest of the world to put all nations under Islam.

     What do you have against self defense?

     Posted by antisocialist at 11/10/2009 @ 09:12am