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RedditIt's being called "the most ambitious commemoration of the 20th anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall outside of Germany": "The Wall Project" in Los Angeles -- and its political message will surprise many. Artists commissioned by the organizers have promised works that draw analogies between the Berlin Wall and the wall the Israelis have erected along the border with the West Bank, and the wall the US has erected along the Mexican border.
That's not exactly the sort of thing Ronald Reagan had in mind when he stood in Berlin in 1989 and said "Tear down this wall!"
LA's Berlin Wall anniversary commemoration has been organized by the Wende Museum, a private institution in Culver City, with the support of the City of L.A. It includes "The Wall Across Wilshire," a one-hour event on November 8 at which a replica of the Berlin Wall 60 feet long will be erected blocking Wilshire Blvd. in front of the County Museum of Art at midnight.
Artists have been commissioned to paint the wall with "their creative response to the walls in our lives": the top two are Shepard Fairey, who did the iconic Obama "Hope" poster, and Thierry Noir, a French-born, Berlin-based muralist famous for his paintings on the Berlin wall in 1989.
In an interview with the LA Times, Fairey said his painting on the wall in L.A. would be an "antiwar, anti-containment piece" that "makes a parallel to the Wall of Palestine."
Thierry Noir told the Times that his painting would draw an analogy between the Berlin Wall and the border wall between the US and Mexico – the point being, he said, that "every wall is not built forever."
Maybe Fairey and Noir mean that the Israeli wall and the US border wall should come down, the way the Berlin Wall did, and allow free movement--of Palestinians into Israel, and of Mexicans into the US.
And maybe they mean more than that. The Berlin Wall prevented victims of Stalinism from reaching freedom in the West; Fairey's point seems to be that the Israeli wall prevents victims of Zionism from exercising their right of return to their historic homes in Palestine.
Thierry Noir's point seems to be that the US border wall, like the Berlin Wall, divides one country into two: what was once all-Mexican territory in California and the Southwest. And, like divided Germany, the two sides of the Mexican border -- "Aztlan" -- should be, and perhaps will be, re-united some day.
An undivided Palestine; an undivided Aztlan: these meanings found in the Berlin Wall commemoration are likely to drive conservatives into a wild rage. First Amendment defenders of course will invoke the freedom of the artist. A fight over the meaning of freedom: what better way to celebrate the anniversary of the fall of the Berlin Wall?
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Thank you for this spectacular example of moral relativism and revisionist history in action, all neatly bundled with the mendacity and ignorance that have become a hallmark of today's liberalism.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 01:40am
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 01:40am
Congratulations.
You have managed in one sentence to convey your own absolute ignorance.
By the way, the word 'hallmark' means 'a distinctive feature, usually one of excellence'.
Many conservatives have no clear idea what liberalism is, except that it loosely describes something that they don't like or don't really know much about. And liberals don't really know what conservatism is either, since it lacks a true definition as well, and is actively seeking to redefine any passing categorization since it fears itself. A synthesis is what is necessary and necessarily impossible.
These 'walls'... are metaphorical in meaning and, as such, are something traditionally beyond the ken of conservative thought. Opening the mind is what would be required.
Posted by ficheye at 11/02/2009 @ 02:38am
Is there a difference between a wall to keep people out and a wall to keep people in?
Posted by abell12ct at 11/02/2009 @ 06:57am
Posted by abell12ct at 11/02/2009 @ 06:57am
The Wall in Israel/Palestine isn't about "keeping people in"????
Wouldn't that be like saying "The Berlin Wall didn't 'keep people in'...they were perfectly free to travel to Poland or Hungary if they wanted to."?
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 07:40am
A hallmark is an official mark or series of marks struck on items made of precious metals -- platinum, gold, silver and in some nations, palladium. In a more general sense, the term hallmark can also be used refer to any distinguishing characteristic or trait.wiki
an example of this would be the word "sterling" stamped on silver of a certain quality.
the real problem with Freehate's comments was that it said NOTHING. it was just a drive by insult aimed at everyone who thinks different from this troglodyte.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 08:00am
Is there a difference between a wall to keep people out and a wall to keep people in? Posted by abell12ct at 11/02/2009 @ 06:57am | ignore this person | warn this person
is there a difference between an entrance and an exit? is there a difference between the up and down escalator?
ah, the eternal questions.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 08:03am
Could it be that they need Aztlan to compensate for losing Chiapas?
Posted by Mistral at 11/02/2009 @ 08:46am
Is there a difference between a wall to keep people out and a wall to keep people in?
it all depends which side of the wall you're on.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 09:02am
ISRAEL BUILT THE WALL TO GRAB MORE PALESTINIAN LAND IN THE NAME OF SECURITY.
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/02/2009 @ 09:03am
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/02/2009 @ 09:03am
Let's use our big boy inside voice, huh?
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 09:16am
Thank you for this spectacular example of moral relativism and revisionist history in action, all neatly bundled with the mendacity and ignorance that have become a hallmark of today's liberalism.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 01:40am | ignore this person | warn this person
Actually the leftist admired the berlin wall as it keep the enlightened marxist free from the corrupting influences of corporate capitalism and especially real freedom which they, the Obamanation admin. , and the Demoncrats despise about American citizens! They are doing their best to build an ideological wall that will enslave the proleteriat or ignorant unwashed citizens of the U.S.A. in their right way of thinking!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 09:18am
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 09:18am
Oh, come on, RIO...you can get nuttier than that-
"Obama "Can" Govern as a Progressive" No arguement with that statement as the his policies should resemble those of the "third reich" and "totalitarian communism" which are embrace by the highly selective authoritative minority rule so favored by "regressives"!
The only questions any voter should have is "Who gets to play the part of the Jews and other society undesirables this time around?" Maybe conservatives and christians?"----Posted by RIO BRAVO 02/28/2008 @ 4:20pm
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 09:25am
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 09:18am
Hey. You missed this one.
'Papa Was a Running-Dog Lackey of the Bourgeoisie'.
It's hard to spell Bourgeoisie, so you can paste it into your handbook of handy ranting by-lines.
It's an excellent addition to some of that pseudo-communist diatribe you are spouting. Do you have that little book by Chairman Mao? God only knows who you think the 'ignorant unwashed citizens' are since Mom has been begging you to shower since '95... 1895.
'Papa Was a Rolling Stone' may be a possible revision of this... or 'Papa Don't Take No Mess'. Mix and match.
Posted by ficheye at 11/02/2009 @ 09:59am
There does seem to be a dearth of clear thinking among artists, does there not? By the way, do the head-breaking Mexican Army thugs who commit systematic human rights abuses against Guatamalans, Salvadorans, Hondurans, et al. attempting to cross Mexico's southern border illegally also constitute a "wall"?
Posted by feinfein at 11/02/2009 @ 10:03am
Every month something happens in LA to remind me why I stay as far away as possible from that Marxist enclave.
These are the open borders, eliminate nationality and nationhood marxist dreamers.
In the case of Israel though, they want the walls to come down so that the Islamists can finish Hitler's final solution. Yeah, the Arabs want one "Palestine"; one that has eliminated all Jews.
Another Hamas leader, Abdel-Aziz Rantisi, said [Jerusalem Post, May 25, 1997]:
Islam does not permit giving up one inch of Palestine and states that Palestine belongs to the Muslims, belongs to the Palestinian people, not to the Jews. Bartering land is not liberation and is not permissible in Islam.
We the Palestinian nation, our fate from Allah is to be the vanguard in the war against the Jews until the resurrection of the dead, as the prophet Muhammad said: "The resurrection of the dead will not arrive until you will fight the Jews and kill them…"
Dr. Muhammed Ibrahim Madi, Palestinian Television, 30 March 2001
The Day of resurrection will not come without the victory of the believers over the descendants of the monkeys and pigs and with their annihilation.
Sheikh Muhammed Abd Al Hadi La'afi, Responsible for Religious Teaching and Instruction in the Office of the Wakf in the official P.A. newspaper Al-Hayat Al-Jadida, 18, May 2001
Muslim:C9B1N33
"The Prophet said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'"
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:08am
attempting to cross Mexico's southern border illegally also constitute a "wall"?
it may constitute a "wall", but does not constitute a wall.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 10:15am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:08am | ignore this person | warn this person
Its like preaching to the deaf dumb and blind on Israel, never mind that suicide arab bombers are nilified by the Israelies wall, the leftist haters just hunger for MORE Israeli deaths and blood as usual!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 10:19am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:08am |
Luke 12:51
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 10:30am
good thing god got to them mexicans before them muslims did.
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2009 @ 10:42am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:08am
Deuteronomy 3:6--- "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Heshbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city."
Deuteronomy 7:2-- "And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them: "
Joshua 8:24-- "And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword.
8:25 And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai.
8:26 For Joshua drew not his hand back, wherewith he stretched out the spear, until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai. "
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 10:46am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:08am |
Luke 12:51
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 10:30am
Absolutely correct. The world hates Jesus as much today as ever and as Jesus said in John 15:18,19
"If the world hates you, remember that it hated me first. The world would love you as one of its own if you belonged to it, but you are no longer part of the world. I chose you to come out of the world, so it hates you."
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:55am
the leftist haters just hunger for MORE Israeli deaths and blood as usual!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 10:19am
I wonder if suicide belts can be found on Islamic eBays, LOL! Their kids parade around in fake ones and carry rifles....What a Wonderful Life!
Posted by Happy at 11/02/2009 @ 10:56am
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 10:55am |
You're 'special' alright.
I had only intended to make a pun about 'division' in light of the thread topic, but keep projecting...get it all out.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 11:01am
Luke 12:51
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 10:30am | ignore this person | warn this person
Cute, but the real point is which way do you chose, to serve god or the world, the latter which has dire eternal consequence? Try it in context!
49"I have come to cast fire upon the earth; and how I wish it were already kindled! 50"But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is accomplished!
51"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but rather division;
52for from now on five members in one household will be divided, three against two and two against three.
53"They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
54And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out.
55"And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way.
56"You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?
57"And why do you not even on your own initiative judge what is right?
58"For while you are going with your opponent to appear before the magistrate, on your way there make an effort to settle with him, so that he may not drag you before the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison.
59"I say to you, you will not get out of there until you have paid the very last cent."
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:03am
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 10:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
Intresting, mAsK making the case for OBEYING the command of God!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:05am
"Its like preaching to the deaf dumb and blind........... BigPasture"
Deaf, dumb and blind people are far more rational, enlightened and courageous than those who have been given eyes, ears and a mouth by God but refuse to use them. Well, except for the mouth part, that is..... I guess you people over-compensate in that department......
Posted by DejaVu at 11/02/2009 @ 11:09am
The Apartheid wall, erected by the Israelis on mostly Palestinian land, annexes 16 Palestinian villages to Israel. In another 50 Palestinian villages, farmers have been separated from their farm land by the wall. In many of these villages, Palestinian students are separated from their schools and farmers were cut off from their water resources by the wall.
On the Gaza strip, the Israelis have created the first Ghetto in the 21st century. The inhuman siege imposed on 1.5 million Palestinians in Gaza has rendered Gaza into largest prison on the planet. Water contamination, broken sewer processing plants and depleted Uranium contamination, from repeated Israeli bombardment, are devastating the population of Gaza. 70% of Palestinian children in Gaza are suffering acute malnutrition, according to world health organizations.
The victims of the Holocaust have taken pages from the German's book on genocide and are faithfully applying them to Palestinians under their occupation.
http://www.vtjp.org/background/ Separation_Wall_Report.htm
Posted by CripThink at 11/02/2009 @ 11:15am
Looks like the hat-in-hand, averted eye behavior of the have nots is a thing of the past. Wearing blinders or building walls ain't gonna discount that fact. Whatever happened to the humble/happy concept?
Retreat to gated communities & private compounds is possible. The swat teams stand ready to defend life & property (unless there's a demo/socialist admin.HAHA)
Posted by Sorelish at 11/02/2009 @ 11:16am
Posted by DejaVu at 11/02/2009 @ 11:09am | ignore this person | warn this person
You just made the case for poor excuses to follow God's will! Seeing but not believing, hearing but denying the truth and refusing to proclaim God's good news unto the world! Plainly through the foolishness of preaching ordained by God is man to be redeemed so as to confound the wisdom of the world so celebrated by man!
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:20am
Wear the grudge like a crown
Of negativity
Calculate what you will
Will not tolerate
Desperate to control
All and everything
Unable to forgive
Your scarlet letterman
(Matt 27:28-29?)
--
Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down
Justify denials and
Grip 'em to the lonesome end
--
Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down
Terrified of being wrong
Ultimatum prison cell
--
Saturn ascends
Choose one or ten
Hang on or be
Humbled again
--
Clutch it like a cornerstone
Otherwise it all comes down
Justify denials and
Grip them to the lonesome end
--
Saturn ascends
Comes 'round again
Saturn ascends
The one, the ten
Ignorant to
The damage done
--
Wear the grudge like a crown
Desperate to control
Unable to forgive
And sinking
deeper
--
Defining
Confining
Sinking
Deeper
--
Controlling
Dividing
Sinking
Deeper
--
Saturn comes back around
To show you everything
Lets you choose what you will
Will not see and
Then drags you down like a stone
Or lifts you up again
Spits you out like a child
Light and innocent
--
Saturn comes back around
Lifts you up like a child
Or drags you down like a stone
To consume you 'til you
Choose to
Let this go
--
Give away the stone
Let the ocean take
and transmutate
This cold and fated anchor
--
Give away the stone
Let the waters kiss
and transmutate
These leaden grudges
...into gold
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 11:23am
Posted by CripThink at 11/02/2009 @ 11:15am | ignore this person | warn this person
So why has not Arab world riches and resourses come to their rescue turning the so-called palestinian arabs world into a booming economic mecca? Israel could not stop them from doing that if that was the important thing? Or is killing and destroying Israel more important?
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:26am
"These 'walls'... are metaphorical in meaning and, as such, are something traditionally beyond the ken of conservative thought. Opening the mind is what would be required."
asking a conservative to open his mind is like asking a straight guy to take it up the rear. not gonna happen.
Posted by darladoon at 11/02/2009 @ 11:31am
Posted by darladoon at 11/02/2009 @ 11:31am | ignore this person | warn this person
Just as metiphorical as your desire to see American servicemen DEAD! Right DarlaLOON?
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:35am
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2009 @ 10:42am
Hadouk Trio - Hijaz (Arabic -- literally, "the barrier")
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a8p4PNuX84c
311 - Uncertain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FB32DNuQnSM
"...in times of trouble, everyone joins a team...noone waves a flag...for all human beings...noone's excited...unless they are divided..."
Silly monkeys.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 11:50am
I was lucky enough to be traveling through Germany shortly after the wall fell, but before the two countries had officially reunified. I went into East Germany through Checkpoint Charlie (only to see it dismantled only two weeks later), and tried to return through the Brandenburg Gate, only to be told that, even though reunification was literally days away, we had to exit through the entrance we came into the country. So, we started walking back towards Checkpoint Charlie only to realize when we got close to it, we were already on the Western side of what was left of the wall. In other words, my passport has no "exit stamp" from East Germany.
And since I live in L.A., a wonderfully multi-lingual, multi-cultural, and diverse city full of wonderful people (regardless of their politics, Larry), I am excited about this new art installation. Wonder if I can make it to Wilshire at midnight on the 8th.
Walls between peoples are a bad thing. Reagan knew this. Too bad that his supposed followers (Larry, BP, etc.) and worshippers think that walls are a good thing. I guess they didn't learn the real lesson of the fall of the Berlin wall. Then again, when it comes to anything Reagan REALLY did, they continue to live in fantasyland.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 11:50am
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:26am
And waht that has to do with the genocide inflicted on the Palestinians by Israel? The European Union and other Arab countries have invested considerably in the rebuilding of Palestinian infrastructure in the occupied Palestinian territories after Oslo. It was, however, the Israelis who repeatedly destroyed such infrastructure in their ongoing campaign of annexation of Palestinian land.
Posted by CripThink at 11/02/2009 @ 11:53am
it is important to remember that the Berlin wall was not just in Berlin, but extended the entire border of the two Germanies. there it was not a wall but a fortified border with automatic motion sensing machine guns, etc.
its purpose was of course to keep the East Germans in, as hundreds of thousands had fled that country.
sadly, they are still fleeing the East, heading west in search of economic opportunity, especially young women.
the most boneheaded move that the victors of WW2 made, was to divide the countries of Germany, Austria, Korea and Vietnam. Japan escaped that mania, Austria settled and accepted neutrality, and we are STILL in conflict in Korea, over 60 years later.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 11:55am
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 11:05am
God commanding genocide, Rio.
Right there in the book. I have no doubt you'd have been right in there slaughtering men, women, and children with nary a pang of conscious about it.
Posted by Mask at 11/02/2009 @ 11:56am
I wonder if suicide belts can be found on Islamic eBays, LOL! Their kids parade around in fake ones and carry rifles....What a Wonderful Life!
Posted by Happy at 11/02/2009 @ 10:56am
Classic case of sinister Zionism: Blame the victims to mask your own crimes.
No bidding is required in the Israeli EBay to acquire Palestinian stolen properties. A multitude of economic incentives and grants are offered by the Israeli government to those who are willing to move to Jewish Settlements on the occupied West Bank. The theft of Palestinian land has been going on since 1947, inside the green line and on the occupied Palestinian territories. Alas, the Israeli auction of stolen Palestinian properties has one restriction, only Jews can participate. Wonder how loud Happy's squeal of Anti-Semitism will be had EBay restricted bidding to Gentiles only?
Posted by CripThink at 11/02/2009 @ 12:45pm
antisocialist-The world has never hated Jesus.When Jesus was alive most in the world never heard of Him and today Jesus is loved by over 2 billion people and is one of the most loved people throughout all of world history.It is unlikely that anyone hates Jesus,although,some might be angry with Him.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 1:06pm
antisocialist-The world has never hated Jesus.When Jesus was alive most in the world never heard of Him and today Jesus is loved by over 2 billion people and is one of the most loved people throughout all of world history.It is unlikely that anyone hates Jesus,although,some might be angry with Him.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 1:06pm
I disagree.
Among those who hate him, atheists, Muslims, agnostics,
Muslims because their Quran reivents a Jesus who is a liar and a murderer.
Atheists and agnostics, just because of who He is.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 1:28pm
antisocialist-Atheists and agnostics do not hate Jesus since they do not believe in Him.They have no strong emotions about the subject since we humans do not have strong emotions about things we do not believe exist..There is no evidence that muslims hate Jesus or even that muslims think about Jesus enough to form any strong emotions about Jesus.And one can have a negative view of someone,but still not hate them.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 1:36pm
Freiheitz, "moral relativism" is not a monopoly of the Left. Sean Innanity regurgitates it all the time: "But it saved American lives!"
Posted by missionunaccomplished at 11/02/2009 @ 1:47pm
There is no evidence that muslims hate Jesus or even that muslims think about Jesus enough to form any strong emotions about Jesus.
not true. Islam considers Jesus not the son of god but a prophet.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 1:48pm
not true. Islam considers Jesus not the son of god but a prophet.
Posted by emile duBois at 11/02/2009 @ 1:48pm
The quran also states that Jesus made someone else look like Him and die on the cross in His place. That makes Jesus a murderer
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 2:00pm
Among those who hate him, atheists, Muslims, agnostics,
Muslims because their Quran reivents a Jesus who is a liar and a murderer.
Atheists and agnostics, just because of who He is.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 1:28pm
Larry, what a load of crap. Every other major religion, including Islam (except for the radicals...and you're not saying all non Christians are radicals, are you?) respect Jesus as a holy man, regardless whether they believe he was the actual son of god or not. Most Muslims consider him a prophet of god (Allah) second only to Mohammad (or Allah). After all, Jews, Christians and Muslims are all children of Abraham. Different branches of the same tree with the same god, just different interpretations of his will (there's that "man's interpretation" argument of mine AGAIN...strange how that keeps popping up when religion is discussed).
Atheists don't believe in Jesus as the literal son of god (since they don't believe in any god), but don't necessarily hate him. And agnostics believe whatever they will. I consider myself to be agnostic and believe Jesus was divinely inspired and that his teachings (some of which I sincerely wish you would follow) are mankind's best hope for survival.
As for Jesus being a murderer, I believe you're the one who keeps posting on all these threads about how your Jesus agrees with America's wars and the slaughtering of innocents in Iraq and elsewhere. My Jesus actually believes in peace and truly is the lamb of god, not your lion.
Because of his sacrifice, no more sacrifices need be made. Now, if only mankind (and you) could learn the lessons he taught....
BTW, Jesus was not a republican.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:08pm
asking a conservative to open his mind is like asking a straight guy to take it up the rear. not gonna happen.
Posted by darladoon at 11/02/2009 @ 11:31am
It's been known to happen....
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:10pm
shame on american jews for supporting this dreadful wall of racism and apartheid.how can anyone justify such brutality and inhumanity?
the ranting and barking by these so called jewish groups that complain about anti semitism,which by the way is a hoax,is really digusing and nauseating.how can a people who complaing about other,s brutalities resort to such dreadfull acts upon innocent civilians?
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:17pm
Atheists and agnostics, just because of who He is. Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 1:28pm |
Bzzzzt....wrong!
It's his followers with whom we generally take issue.
I don't have to 'believe' (in the dip your head in water and repeat after me sense) to recognize the wisdom of HIS words.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:33pm
Israel's wall is NOT built on the 1967 lines (the article author is wrong about that). It cuts deep into the West Bank, circling Palestinian towns in many instances, separating villages from village lands, and farmers from their lands, and encircling Jerusalem, making it inaccessible. It's much more than a wall, in fact, and is better thought of as a system of control, one that includes paths on either side for patrol jeeps (Israeli) and watchtowers. It's ugly and distorts the environment, and mostly it separates Palestinians from each other while giving Israelis more land and water and connecting the illegal settlements to Israel.
Posted by idaaudeh at 11/02/2009 @ 2:34pm
Freiheit1, "moral relativism" is not a monopoly of the Left. Sean Innanity regurgitates it all the time: "But it saved American lives!"
Posted by missionunaccomplished at 11/02/2009 @ 1:47pm
First off, I never stated that moral relativism is a "monopoly of the left". It is not. However, I correctly refered to it as a hallmark of today's liberalism. To use a trendy example, replace 'Polanski' with 'Rove' and then say "it's not really rape rape".
Secondly, you mention Hannity, I surmise because you believe I might defend him? Hardly. You and I probably agree. To scratch the surface of what's wrong with Hannity, just watch his recent interview of Michael Moore.
Jon Wiener's article above serves only one purpose. To divide us.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:51pm
My Jesus actually believes in peace and truly is the lamb of god, not your lion.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 2:08pm
Hi Steve, are you sure you've not just gone ahead and created a Jesus in your own image?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 3:00pm
freiheit-Everyone who believes seems to create a Jesus in their own image.The Gospels make that easy to do since they only contain a small sampling of teachings that are, very much, open to personal interpretation..We create a Jesus in our own image because we are unable to make ourselves be like Jesus so we make Jesus us..
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 3:14pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 3:14pm
I respectfully disagree, i'm nobody.
The believers I know don't seem to create a Jesus in their own image at all, as you contend. In fact, their faith takes them outside of themselves entirely. What they seem to understand is that they are sinners and we are, as a people, fallen.
Their morality comes from outside and is not of their own creation. They believe God works through them, not that they are god-like in any way.
You state, "We create a Jesus in our own image because we are unable to make ourselves be like Jesus so we make Jesus us.." Wow, in just my opinion, Satan himself couldn't have phrased it better.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 3:31pm
freiheit-In other words,only others do that,but not you and yours.That's what all of you say which is so pathetic.Nice try,though,but hopefully,you do not believe your response. Why would satan say that?Are you saying that satan makes statements of fact or are you claiming that you can walk on water,raise the dead,and heal the sick,and get nailed to a cross?
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 3:42pm
i'm nobody, what an odd attack.
I purposefully didn't refer to myself at all. I was refering to Christians I know and how they seem to me.
Christians believe as stated in the Bible that we are made in God's image, not the other way around, as you contend. Now, don't you agree that the opposite of what the Bible teaches might just be satan's take on things? Or is it all just too open for interpretation? You know, like the COTUS...
Just for giggles, I recommend "The Screwtape Letters" if you haven't read it already. It gave me the perspective to see your posts differently than I would have before I read it.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 4:07pm
freiheit-I did not contend that humans were not made in God's image.What I said was that believers in Jesus seem to create Jesus in their own image because the teachings are few and very much open to personal interpretation.I did not state anything that was the opposite of what the Bible said.I,also,stated that we cannot live up to Jesus so it's easier to make Jesus into ourselves.We,also,have few teachings making it even more difficult to be Jesus like.The Screwtape Letters did not help you with my post.You were reading things into my post that were not there.Nothing satanic about my post.You read that into it.Of course,satan would have nothing to do with questioning what is in the Bible.Christians play the satan card when they have no logical or good arguments to make and do not know how to respond to a good argument presented to them.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 4:23pm
It was, however, the Israelis who repeatedly destroyed such infrastructure in their ongoing campaign of annexation of Palestinian land.
Posted by CripThink at 11/02/2009 @ 11:53am | ignore this person | warn this person
Somehow we all missed the disentigration of the great so-called palestinian culture and metropolis, must be another dimensional rift.
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 4:34pm
Okay, i'm nobody, you wrote, "We create a Jesus in our own image because we are unable to make ourselves be like Jesus so we make Jesus us.."
Sorry, I took that to mean believers in Jesus are unable to make ourselves be like Jesus, so we make Jesus us.
I apologize for reading things into your post that were not there and assuming you meant that we create a Jesus in our own image.
If you'd read "The Screwtape Letters" you'd understand where I was coming from in my post. Oh, and I didn't "play the satan card" (which made me LOL, by the way). I just wanted to emphasize how far away your secular perspective appears from that of other Christians I know. Certainly not because I didn't know how to "respond to a good argument."
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 4:38pm
Hi Steve, are you sure you've not just gone ahead and created a Jesus in your own image?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 3:00pm
Well, I certainly don't consider myself the lamb of god, but I do believe in the peace that Jesus taught, not the war-loving Jesus that Larry teaches.
As for the making of Jesus in my own image, I believe it was mankind who stated that god made man in his own image (and then called it the word of god). I've always found that concept to show the god of Abraham as being pretty vain, if the concept is true. I believe that god is a lot more than some human looking guy sitting on a golden throne watching us all the time.
I believe that god gave mankind a brain and the ability to think. I believe that thinking people know and understand that walls are built by fear, and the only way to get through fear of the "other" whether it's Jew, Muslim, Christian, gay, straight, white, black, etc., is through bravery. I believe that, generally speaking, conservatives SPEAK highly of bravery, yet hardly ever posses it. I'm not speaking of military bravery; I am speaking of moral and spiritual bravery; the bravery to accept someone that is not like you as a friend and seeing the commonalities with that person BEFORE looking at the differences. Conservatives always look at the differences first, which is why they like walls between people.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 4:55pm
freiheit-Actually,I do not have a secular perspective.In your response you said man is made in Gods image and you did not mention Jesus.What I was discussing was the physical Jesus and His teachings.If you read your posts you will discover that you mentioned satan in your first response to me.You played the satan card right from the beginning.If you need to believe that your type of Christian knows the real Jesus and models yourselves after that image that is fine.I prefer to look at reality and reality is that believers seem to create a Jesus in their own image and one that is based upon their personal views.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/02/2009 @ 5:05pm
Hi Steve,
Thanks for your thoughtful post. I do, however, disagree with your contention that conservatives generally lack "moral and spiritual bravery; the bravery to accept someone that is not like you as a friend and seeing the commonalities with that person BEFORE looking at the differences."
Those kinds of people you describe are generally refered to as idiots, not indicative of conservatives, or liberals.
And I am certainly splitting hairs here, but it is not just, as you mention, a brain and the ability to think that is God-given. What matters most is our God-given free will. It is what empowers faith. Funny thing faith. I'm learning you either have it, or you don't.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 5:26pm
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 4:55pm
Your first problem is not understanding what the peace is that Jesus offers. It is peace with G-d, not peace among men.
You need to understand the concept of the Shalom of Yhwh, not the peace of man. Jesus is Yhwh (or Jehovah) Shalom, the Lord our Peace.
shalom means the well being, the wholeness and the flourishing of all that God has created.
Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, says the LORD, thoughts of peace and not of evil, to give you a future and a hope.
Ezekiel 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them, and it shall be an everlasting covenant with them; I will establish them and multiply them, and I will set My sanctuary in their midst forevermore.
John 14:27
Peace I leave with you, My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.
John 16:33
These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."
Romans 5:1
Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
Ephesians 2:14
For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation
Colossians 3:15
And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to which also you were called in one body; and be thankful. (let the Shalom of G-d)
There will not be peace in the world until after the judgment of Satan.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 5:44pm
And I am certainly splitting hairs here, but it is not just, as you mention, a brain and the ability to think that is God-given. What matters most is our God-given free will. It is what empowers faith. Funny thing faith. I'm learning you either have it, or you don't.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/02/2009 @ 5:26pm
I have faith. I simply follow no religion. Unlike Larry, who I believe follows a religion but has no actual faith, which is why I have such a problem with his hypocrisy on so many matters.
And Larry, feel free to quote scripture to me all you want. Because it was written by men, I know it is not infallible, like you believe it to be. Sometimes wise, sometimes asinine, but not perfect.
You believe what you do because of a book and a tradition dating back about 2 thousand years (or more for the OT guys like Larry). I believe what I believe because of faith and my life experiences. I don't need a book to tell me that I shouldn't eat shellfish on Sundays, or have relations with an "unclean" woman (and it's all or nothing for them!). I use my god-given brain and free will to choose the things in the Bible the Koran or any other holy book that I wish to agree with or not. I try to be a good person; knowing full well that no virgins await me, nor St. Peter standing by some pearly gate allowing me into a cloud-filled heaven.
I will not reach nirvana. Spiritual ecstasy will forever be denied me. But if I lie on my deathbed and have no regrets, then I will have lived a wonderful life. And if I'm wrong and St. Peter turns me away because I lived a fair and balanced life and tried to be a good person, but was not an evangelical Christian, then so be it...I don't really want to spend eternity with those folks anyway. No beer.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 6:17pm
I don't really want to spend eternity with those folks anyway. No beer. Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 6:17pm
First sensible thing I've heard this whole damn thread.
Good post Stephen. Thank you. I identify more with Buddhists. There's a whole hell of a lot less killing in their game plan.
Posted by ficheye at 11/02/2009 @ 6:44pm
There will not be peace in the world until after the judgment of Satan.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 5:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
"final" judgement of Satan as he is already defeated, all that is left for him is the lake of fire, correct?
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 6:45pm
I will not reach nirvana. Spiritual ecstasy will forever be denied me. But if I lie on my deathbed and have no regrets, then I will have lived a wonderful life. And if I'm wrong and St. Peter turns me away because I lived a fair and balanced life and tried to be a good person, but was not an evangelical Christian, then so be it...I don't really want to spend eternity with those folks anyway. No beer.
Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 11/02/2009 @ 6:17pm
I hope you awaken from the deceit that is condemning you to death. I mean that with all sincerity. No one will be in heaven because they tried to be a good person.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 7:07pm
"final" judgement of Satan as he is already defeated, all that is left for him is the lake of fire, correct?
Posted by BigPasture at 11/02/2009 @ 6:45pm
Right, he has been judged
John 12:31 Now is the judgment of this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.
Satan just hasn't experienced the effect of his judgment. Revelation 20:7-10
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/02/2009 @ 7:15pm
Religious issues are interesting and important, but please allow me to note that mass illegal immigration constitutes a wall that cruelly separates the American working classes (white, black, Latino) from prosperity--from low-skill jobs with decent wages and benefits.
Posted by feinfein at 11/02/2009 @ 7:35pm
hey, thanks for the link, snowbert -- very nice.
the trio has four players......
Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2009 @ 9:29pm
How can you compare one of the world's great cities--Berlin--with the rodent infested septic tank known as Israel?
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/02/2009 @ 9:29pm
I'm always incredulous when somebody compares the Berlin Wall to American border security. People were shot by their own government for attempting to vote with their feet over the Berlin Wall.
As a sovereign nation, do we or do we not have the right and obligation to control who has access to our country? To our streets and neighborhoods? Our schools and hospitals?
The Mexican government certainly thinks it has a right to control those things in Mexico.
Open borders works pretty well in Europe, where all countries are more or less culturally and economically homogenous.
Opening a border with what at some times appears to be a failed state is an invitation to disaster. There is no upside in that scenario for America, only the assumption of more economic and social burdens.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 11/03/2009 @ 02:52am
I was brought up in apartheid South ASfrica, and bad as it was, it was a symbolic not physical fence, and the SA regime never crossed over the walls to murder blacks and then plunder their corpses for organs to sell on the black market for profit, something Israel has beeng doing since the 1970s, as shown by the Swedish governmental investigation requested by the UN. The regime alsao never murdered black babies with white phosphorus not deprived the blacks of water and food. Such civilised people.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 07:21am
he trio has four players...... Posted by frosty zoom at 11/02/2009 @ 9:29pm |
They're french...must me a metric conversion error.
Posted by snowball777 at 11/03/2009 @ 07:56am
And again, go to the Bible and read
Titus 3:2
and see if there's much application of that by Larry/antisoc or Freiheit or ANY application of it by Rio/Big Posture.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 08:00am
ISRAEL IS A SPECIAL COUNTRY.IT WAS CREATED WITH LIES AND THAT ALSO IN THE HEART OF ARAB LAND.THE SO CALLED HOLOCAUST SURVIVORS KILLED AND ARRESTED THOUSANDS INCLUDING VERY OLD AND CHILDREN.THEY EVEN STOLE AND SOLD THE ORGANS OF THE PALESTINIANS YOUTH DETAINED BY THEM.THEY COULD MAKE NUKES AND COULD USE BANNED WEAPONS ON UNGUARDED CIVILIANS.UN COULD NEVER PASS A RESOLUTIONS AGAINST THEM DUE TO THE HELP FROM US AND UK. IT IS THE REAL ROGUE NATION. VISIT.WWW.GILAD.CO.UK
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/03/2009 @ 08:08am
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/03/2009 @ 08:08am
Mirror image of rightwingnutcase....
except RWNC atleast uses lower case letters.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 08:13am
TRUTHS ARE HARD TO BELIEVE. PROVE IF MY POSTINGS ARE LIES. READ HISTORY MASK.AVOID JUNKS LIKE BBC,CNN,FOX ETC....... VISIT.WWW.GILAD.CO.UK
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/03/2009 @ 08:29am
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/03/2009 @ 08:29am |
It's a truism of blogs, that guys who SCREAM IN ALL CAPS....
do so based on an obvious lack of substance.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 09:09am
THEY EVEN STOLE AND SOLD THE ORGANS OF THE PALESTINIANS YOUTH
Posted by Dastu11 at 11/03/2009 @ 08:08am
Even worse, they stole all the lower case letters from their detractors. There will be no peace until all the (lower case) t's are crossed and the i's are dotted.
Posted by Mistral at 11/03/2009 @ 09:45am
Posted by Mistral at 11/03/2009 @ 09:45am
Gotta admit, Mistral....that's funny stuff.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 10:12am
Gotta admit, Mistral....that's funny stuff.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 10:12am
I want to second that!
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 11:21am
'the rodent infested septic tank known as Israel' -- SmashIsrael
--
'Got me an altitude
Can't help feelin' something's wrong
With everyone of you' -- SmashingPumpkins -- 'Pissant'
--
'We gotta dig in
Gas masks on
Wait in the sunshine, all bug-eyed
If this is living?
Sakes alive!
Well then they can't win
No one survives
Is everyone afraid?' -- SmashingPumpkins -- 'Doomsday Clock'
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/03/2009 @ 11:25am
'like asking a straight guy to take it up the rear. not gonna happen.' -- darladoon
Well, I've got you 'pegged' darla!
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/03/2009 @ 11:33am
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 11:21am
But it's still true....Dastu is simply the mirror-image of rightwingnutcase or Larry/antisoc.
Abject Israel loathing versus abject Israel idolatry. Same dang thing.
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 11:52am
Abject Israel loathing versus abject Israel idolatry. Same dang thing. Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 11:52am
Sure.
Nazi idolatry. Nazi Loathing.
Identical.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 12:32pm
The regime also never murdered black babies with white phosphorus not deprived the blacks of water and food. Such civilized people.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 07:21am
mystic,
There is one more unreported Israeli criminal act that even the South African apartheid regime did not inflict on black Africans.
The fanatic Jewish settlers are resorting to new terror campaign against Palestinian children in the West Bank. Settlers, as reported by the Palestinian News Agency, run over Palestinian children, then speed up their vehicles to seek protection at the nearest Israeli army checkpoint.
The Palestinian Zachariah Radwan was the latest victim of the Jewish Settlers. He was run over by a speeding car, driven by a Jewish settler, in the main street of a small town south of Nablus. The settler, then, sped up and got protection at the nearest Israeli military checkpoint. The City Council President of that Palestinian town said the Zachariah was the twentieth victim of settler drivers in his town this year alone.
This story would have been a major headline in America, had the victims been Jewish children instead.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 12:37pm
'Abject Israel loathing versus abject Israel idolatry. Same dang thing.' -- Mask
'Sure.
Nazi idolatry. Nazi Loathing.
Identical.' rykart
'What we have heah, is a failure to COMMUNICATE' -- The Cap'n -- 'Cool Hand Luke'
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/03/2009 @ 12:39pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 12:37pm
So wait, CripThink, you expect us all to believe that the Israeli drivers you cite didn't stop and drink the warm blood of their innocent child victims first and then got protection at the nearest Israeli military checkpoint?
C'mon, get your facts together! Sheesh!
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 1:22pm
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 1:22pm
Yeah...everyone's an anti-Semite.
Judge Goldstone Ha'aretz The Red cross Amnesty International Human Rights Watch Physicians for Human Rights Bt'selem Desmond Tutu Nelson Mandela Albert Einstein Jimmy Carter
...everyone is telling vicious lies about israel, painting them as cruel degenerates and garbage rather than the marvelous chosen people we all know them to be.
That's real credible.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 1:53pm
C'mon, get your facts together! Sheesh!
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 1:22pm
"Sheesh" won't help much when talking about religious fanatic groups such as the Jewish settlers of the West Bank. The settlers' criminal deeds against Palestinians are well documented. Shooting Palestinians, burning their crops, cutting their olive tress, and poisoning their drinking wells are few examples of the crimes inflicted on Palestinians by the Jewish settlers:
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/settlements-articles.html
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 2:10pm
Posted by HonestLiberal at 11/03/2009 @ 12:39pm
". . . although he hated the Yahoos of this country, yet he no more blamed them for their odious qualities, than he did a gnnayh (a bird of prey) for its cruelty, or a sharp stone for cutting his hoof.
But when a creature pretending to reason could be capable of such enormities, he dreaded lest the corruption of that faculty might be worse than brutality itself. He seemed therefore confident, that instead of reason, we were only possessed of some quality fitted to increase our natural vices . . ." ("Gulliver's Travels"--Part IV, Chapter V)
Posted by Mask at 11/03/2009 @ 2:21pm
Israel is meshugah. Playing the victim card, reminding the world of the Holocaust EVERY day (seriously, you ever see the History channel?) while engaging in their own persecution and ethnic cleansing before our very eyes (and with your tax dollars). Well, if your money goes to Israel and supports the IDF, what does that make you?
Posted by chimichenga at 11/03/2009 @ 2:24pm
Well, if your money goes to Israel and supports the IDF, what does that make you?
Posted by chimichenga at 11/03/2009 @ 2:24pm
Very simple, it makes the American tax payer as criminal as the Israelis
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 2:28pm
What are the chances you'll see - much less hear about - this film playing at a theatre near you?
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/10/20091031142820116973.html
Posted by chimichenga at 11/03/2009 @ 2:32pm
Cripthink: I am shocked to read of these drivers' crimes you cite, but like you say, what's not to believe when plundering corpses has been proven. Worse still, Hillary and by extrapolation Obama, has given legitimacy to the settlers, but that also is not suprising when you consider the barbarism committed by the US. Birds of a feather.
As a South African born Jew, all I can say is I am so proud of Richard Goldstone; His righteousness transcends everything else and uplifts the spirit of justice to its peak.What a noble human being. Compare his calling to the scum who inhabit our Supreme Court.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 2:37pm
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 2:37pm
I lost you, when you refer to the scum inhabiting our supreme court, is the "our" south africa, or the US?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 2:41pm
just wait until the next Israeli discotheque is blown to shreds. They'll try to milk it for tears and play the victim card but the entire world will be laughing and high-five-ing each other.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 2:56pm
Goldstone!
Now Goldstone is a saint?
ok---I'm grateful he had the courage to put out a detailed report on Israel's abominations in Gaza, but it is surely a sign of how LOW most of the Jewish community has sunk when we want to canonize the guy for actually doing his job!
I think Finkelstein was spot on when he said the primary shortcoming of the Goldstone report is that it treats Israel's atrocities as crimes of war, though there was no war--simply a massacre.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:01pm
is the "our" south africa, or the US? (freiheitz)
Sorry, Freiheitz, I always get carried away when I remember the 2000 election. I have lived 2/3 of my life in the US. The SA judiciary however has always, in my opinion, been above the political fray, very emulative of the Hague.As a young doctor years ago, I got my taste of the American judiciary: I had been called on my night off to treat the victims of a fire at my hospital, parked on the sidewalk, and emerged hours later only to find a parking ticket on my MD plates. I appealed and lost with a fine as penalty. That to me says more about the American judiciary than anything else. The US is on a steep decline since then so its standards are barely discernable.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 3:05pm
just wait until the next Israeli discotheque is blown to shreds. They'll try to milk it for tears and play the victim card but the entire world will be laughing and high-five-ing each other.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 2:56pm
You post that and expect to have any credibility whatsoever?! Thanks for the example of pure hatred in action. It is sobering to see.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 3:08pm
You post that and expect to have any credibility whatsoever?! Thanks for the example of pure hatred in action. It is sobering to see. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 3:08pm
..glad something has managed to sober you up.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:09pm
That to me says more about the American judiciary than anything else. The US is on a steep decline since then so its standards are barely discernable.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 3:05pm
Thank you Mystic! You, like Goldstone, are courageous Jews. Your noble sense of justice when it comes to the oppression of the Palestinians is a testimony to your deep sense of humanity; thank you Doctor!
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:21pm
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:09pm
Yes, your glee at the thought of innocent people being killed certainly did the trick.
I sometimes underestimate the evil that exists all around us.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 3:26pm
What are the chances you'll see - much less hear about - this film playing at a theatre near you?
http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2009/10/20091031142820116973.html
Posted by chimichenga at 11/03/2009 @ 2:32pm
chimichenga,
This is a thought-provoking article. The same point was emphasized by Professor Norman G. Finkelstein in his book: The Holocaust Industry.
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/category/the-holocaust-industry/
It is often very hard to introduce change when dealing with self-righteous zealots who view their criminal actions as manifestation of God's will. Ben Laden is one example; the Jewish Settlers and their AIPAC supporters is another.
It is unfortunate that the American policy makers have consistently refused to place Jewish fanatics in the same category as Bin Laden. The blind American support for consecutive fascist governments in Israel has immensely damaged the American National Interest. American shedding their blood in Iraq, Afghanistan, etc… and the trillions spent on these wars are a direct consequence of our unholy alliance with criminal Israel.
Liberating our Congress from AIPAC's stranglehold should be an American national priority. Public financing of our elections is way overdue.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:28pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:21pm
In a way I agree. But on second thought--why courageous? A Jew standing up to the Nazis would be courageous. Goldstone runs no risk to life and limb by making an honest rather than a dishonest report on Gaza. Just rejection by Uncle Tom creeps like Obama. Isn't one's integrity worth more than that? Obviously in Goldstone's case, the answer is yes. I applaud him for it, and I applaud him for not backing down.
As I say, most Jews have sunk so low that when a Jew of prominence like Goldstone is appalled by the sheer cruelty and mindlessness of the Israelis, this is a great surprise to everyone. Every normal human being with an intact nervous system ought to be repulsed by Israel and what it did in Gaza. The entire Jewish community ought to be denouncing Israel in the most severe terms possible. That they are instead, mostly supporting the monsters of Israel is a terrible black mark on the Jewish community--a failure of decency and humanity. It makes me ashamed to be Jew.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:29pm
It makes me ashamed to be Jew.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:29pm
did you forget to add the 'self-loathing'?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 3:35pm
did you forget to add the 'self-loathing'? Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 3:35pm
Right.
Just like the "self-loathing Italians" who opposed Mussolini.
Your argument is like a worn out, pistachio leisure suit.
"Anti-semite"
Self-hating Jew"
People just laugh when they hear such nonsense from the depraved supporters of Israel.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:39pm
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:29pm
rykart,
No, I respectfully refuse to traverse this stereotypical road "most Jews have sunk so low…" Such emotional and loaded statements will destroy our humanity. Just for history, some of the most ardent supporters of the Palestinian cause are Jews. They have stood their ground and defended justice in Palestine at great personal peril.
I understand your pain, but ask you to rise above it. The Palestinian cause will prevail, only when it is seen as part of the humanity struggle for justice. This struggle knows no religion, race or creed; honest men and women of all religions ought to stand together to win it.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:52pm
Ben Laden is one example; the Jewish Settlers and their AIPAC supporters is another. Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:28pm
Actually, Bin Laden, though clearly a terrorist, repeatedly proposed a completely fair and equitable end to violence and hostility between Al Qaida and the US--one that would cost us nothing. Indeed, his proposal to end America's massacre jamboree in foreign lands would save the US trillions of dollars that we could find much better use of.
Israel has NEVER offered the Palestinians any equitable resolution, but only more suffering and dispossession.
We have to be honest about these things and admit that Bin Laden is a far more decent and level headed individual than any leader of the Jewish state. It is unfair to compare Bin Laden with the israelis. We may disagree with his tactics but his aims are largely justice. israel uses reprehensible tactics in pursuit of reprehensible goals. No comparison.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 3:56pm
Serious question. What are Israel's reprehensible goals? Can you give me top three at least?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 4:01pm
Just for history, some of the most ardent supporters of the Palestinian cause are Jews. They have stood their ground and defended justice in Palestine at great personal peril. Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 3:52pm
I'll go you one better crip, and say that some ISRAELIS have been among the most ardent supporters of the Palestinian cause...hass, pappe, gideon levy, the IDF refusnics, etc---these people are HUGE heros. They deserve the Noble Prize (certainly more than Obama does).
I only claim that MOST of the Jewish community supports Israel's atrocities and VERY close to 100% of Israelis do. I call such people vermin and a disgrace to the Jews.
I'm shocked every day that virtually all organized Jewry in the US is supportive of Israel. It's really a Jewish disease..I don't know what else to call it. It is something Jews must confront. It's a pathology.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 4:03pm
Serious question. What are Israel's reprehensible goals? Can you give me top three at least? Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 4:01pm
1) rid the land of its indigenous arab population through the process of ethnic cleansing--begun before Israeli statehood and continuing today unimpeded.
2) expand the wretched gangster state in all directions, through violence and force of arms, bleeding the US of 3bn per year for their campaign of atrocities.
3) Involve the US in a possible nuclear WWIII with Iran--a country which has signed and abided by the NPT while Israel thumbs its nose at the international community, refuses to sign the NPT and menaces the region with 200+ nuclear warheads.
...no problem expanding this list to several hundred items, but this seems a good start.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 4:08pm
I'm shocked every day that virtually all organized Jewry in the US is supportive of Israel. It's really a Jewish disease..I don't know what else to call it. It is something Jews must confront. It's a pathology.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 4:03pm
rykart,
Yes, and you add Finkelstein, Chomsky, Elmer Berger, etc… See they aren't Israelis. So my statement is essentially correct.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 4:20pm
Thought i'd share an email I got about an hour ago from Mazin Qumsiyeh, whose list I'm on.
Yesterday and while politicians fret over terms like "slow-down" or "restraint" on illegal settlement activities, the Israeli authorities demolished more homes and evicted some 30 people in Jerusalem. One room that is part of a demolished building housed a handicapped women whom neighbors and friends had helped get modifications done to facilitate her life. Tonight we heard a rather depressing report from an organizer in AlBustan Neighborhood in Silwan (Occupied Jerusalem) where 88 homes (housing 1500 people, 60% of them children) are slated for demolition to create a "King David park". In a normal city, parks are created to serve the residents of the area not to ethnically cleanse them. The political plan for judaicizing this area is actually laid out in the "Jerusalem 2020" plan. That Israel is violating International law (Geneva Conventions and UN Security Council resolutions) seems to be only met with muffled protests from the International community. We are told of a seven year old boy whose mother notices bulging backpack going to school and back, when opened, the bag contained his toys. When asked about it it turns out that the child had overheard his parents talking about the demolition order on their home and he wanted to make sure that if he comes back from school and finds his home demolished, his most valuable toys would be saved.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 4:21pm
We are told of a seven year old boy whose mother notices bulging backpack going to school and back, when opened, the bag contained his toys. When asked about it it turns out that the child had overheard his parents talking about the demolition order on their home and he wanted to make sure that if he comes back from school and finds his home demolished, his most valuable toys would be saved.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 4:21pm
rykart,
Not even the Nazis had gone that far. America is guilty for every tax-payer dollar which is sent to Israel.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 4:27pm
WHAT?!
"When asked about it it turns out that the child had overheard his parents talking about the demolition order on their home and he wanted to make sure that if he comes back from school and finds his home demolished, his most valuable toys would be saved."
And your comment is "not even the nazis had gone that far"??!! Wow.
Truly amazing lack of historical perspective.
But, hey, Israel vs Palestine is classic Hegelian Dialectic. Both extremes of the argument are fully deceived and can't even begin to see the direction in which they are being led. Psssst... Follow the money.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 5:26pm
But, hey, Israel vs Palestine is classic Hegelian Dialectic. Both extremes of the argument are fully deceived and can't even begin to see the direction in which they are being led. Psssst... Follow the money. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 5:26pm
oh---now I get it. how could we have missed this?
Palestinians are having their homes demolished, their children shot point blank, their hospitals and schools bombed, their citizenry terrorized by the filth of Israel as a sort of cagey investment strategy.
Great theory.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 5:53pm
rykart, you have certainly cornered the hatred of Israel market on this blog.
In fact in my years playing around on these blogs on the nation I've never quite seen your kind of blind hatred - even expressing your hope an Israeli disco would be bombed and innocents killed [Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 2:56pm].
10 seconds on google <rykart israel> and you appear all over the Internet.
Altruistic you are not. I wonder what your incentive really is?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 7:08pm
And your comment is "not even the nazis had gone that far"??!! Wow. Truly amazing lack of historical perspective.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 5:26pm
Freiheit1,
It is truly despicable that a fellow like you prefers to focus the semantic to mask the obvious.
What do you call those Israeli fascists who are demolishing Palestinian homes in the West Bank and Jerusalem? Especially when you know damn well that they are the children of Jews who were subjected to similar atrocities by the Nazis?
Instead of being honest about it, you would rather twist words, lie to yourself and plead ignorance. I guess that you are one of those Zionists whose soul has been corrupted. Zionism shall never escape corrupting its soul while practicing its genocidal campaign against Palestinians; it happened to the Nazi executioners of Jews.
Just name a crime committed by the Nazis that the Israelis have not used against the Palestinians? Shame on you and your Zionist friends; you have not learned from your own history.
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 7:40pm
My mistake, I just happen to think on the atrocity scale, the nazis still top the podium. As a Jew in nazi germany, the least of that kids worries would be his backpack of toys.
Yet you go on to call me a Zionist whose soul has been corrupted?!
Have you ever even been to Israel or Palestine CripThink? You seem to have huge insight into a truth I don't have. Seriously, you know a lot more about this than I do.
But I'll spin up fast.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 7:49pm
As a Jew in nazi germany, the least of that kids worries would be his backpack of toys.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 7:49pm
Not so Freiheit1,
The kid's toys are the least of concern; we are talking about demolishing his family's home with 24 hour notice; a common Nazi practice against the Jews.
The shelling of Gaza with Phosphorous bombs; the siege of Gaza is vey much resembles the siege of the Warsaw Ghetto. Palestinians under siege are dying of hunger, lack of medicines and rudimentary, but otherwise curable diseases. Uprooting Olive trees and poisoning Palestinian wells by Jewish settlers on the West Bank is very much reminiscent of the Nazis collective punishment against Jews; and for what? Is it because these Palestinians are resisting occupation and are demanding to have their own country; the same aspiration that the Israelis want all of us to support? The ongoing confiscation of Palestinian lands and homes brings to memory the Nazis' confiscation of Jewish businesses and homes in Germany. I don't have to go to Palestine to know these facts; I simply don't rely on the Zionist-controlled American media.
The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust; the Germans did it. Why should the Palestinians pay the price instead?
Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 9:03pm
"The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust; the Germans did it. Why should the Palestinians pay the price instead?" (Cripthink) That's the very reason why Zionists distract that very question ---because they can't anwswer it with any sense of reason and justice----by demonising Ahmnadinejad who repeats that very question over and over.And the more the Zionists try to distract with their phony cries of victimhood and desperate cries of anti-Semitism, the more the rest of the world sees their folly and their evil, and the more Ahmadinejad is elevated to a higher moral authority. The Zionists exemplify the exact evil perpetrated by the Nazis, along with the complicit American silence.
Posted by mystic at 11/03/2009 @ 9:26pm
rykart, you have certainly cornered the hatred of Israel market on this blog. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/03/2009 @ 7:08pm
An advocate for the Israelis--the most hate-filled vermin on earth, who round up children and drag them off to be tortured or simply shoot them as a form of sport, wants to lecture me about hate.
That's like Josef Mengele calling Christian Barnard "a butcher."
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 9:28pm
The Palestinians had nothing to do with the Holocaust; the Germans did it. Why should the Palestinians pay the price instead? Posted by CripThink at 11/03/2009 @ 9:03pm
In full agreement though we should be careful about comparing the Germans to the Israelis too much. The former had a 12 year history of racist genocide and also produced some of the most astounding talents in science and art the world has ever seen.
The Israelis have a 60+ year history of racist genocide and have never produced anything but stupidity, violence and religious lunacy.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 9:34pm
The Nation website has become a second home for the Islamic jihadists.
Come on guys, don't hold back. Tell us all how the "final solution" is the only way to rid the world of these evil Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/03/2009 @ 10:55pm
The Nation website has become a second home for the Islamic jihadists.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/03/2009 @ 10:55pm
Hey Monk,
Why don't you shut up and move your pulpit to Fox News; you can calm your anxiety among your racist friends there.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 12:25am
Come on guys, don't hold back. Tell us all how the "final solution" is the only way to rid the world of these evil Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 11/03/2009 @ 10:55pm
Not really. Some of them seem to take the position that Israel should never have been created in the first place: the whole area (Israel, the chunk of Egypt called Gaza and the chunk of Jordan called the West Bank) should have been made into one big (happy?) country when the British Empire folded. But like in south Asia, which split into India and Pakistan on confessional lines, the Middle East split up. Would there have been less bloodshed the other way around? Don't know. Don't see anybody arguing that Pakistan isn't a legitimate state, though.
Posted by Mistral at 11/04/2009 @ 08:42am
The Israelis have a 60+ year history of racist genocide and have never produced anything but stupidity, violence and religious lunacy.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 9:34pm
Even the technology you use to spread your hatred on the Internet was designed in great part by Israelis...
I do pity you rykart. Hatred has simply comsumed your personna (and likely it isn't an online act). You've been marginalized and you don't even know it.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 09:58am
osted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 09:58am
Now the Israelis invented the internet!
Christ, what next?
I turn you over to that very "marginalized" writer Philip Roth:
"They may be able to instill in other Arabs who live under their evil occupation fear and respect for their 'superiority,' but I grew up with you people, I was educated with you people, by you people, I lived with real Jews, at Harvard, at Chicago, with truly superior people, whom I admired, whom I loved, to whom I did indeed feel inferior and rightly so the vitality in them, the irony in them, the human sympathy, the human tolerance, the goodness of heart that was simply instinctive in them, people with the Jewish sense of survival that was all human, elastic, adaptable, humorous, creative, and all this they have replaced here with a stick! The Golden Calf was more Jewish than Ariel Sharon, God of Samaria and Judea and the Holy Gaza Strip! The worst of the ghetto Jew combined with the worst of the bellicose, belligerent goy, and that is what these people call ‘authentic'! Jews have a reputation for being intelligent, and they are intelligent. The only place I have ever been where all the Jews are stupid is Israel. I spit on them! I spit on them!"
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 10:17am
rykart-Freiheit did not say that the Israelis invented the internet.He said they helped invent it.The fact that you have difficulty understanding what you read explains your posts.Get out of your pajamas and get back into school.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 10:25am
Don't see anybody arguing that Pakistan isn't a legitimate state, though.
Posted by Mistral at 11/04/2009 @ 08:42am
Mistral,
There is always the danger of knowing little history; but in your case, it seems that you are conflating the issue because of your lack of valid argument.
Pakistan was created based on swap of land, where Hindu and Muslims engaged in civil war and had to swap territories to make space for the emergence of Pakistan.
Israel's creation, however, was based on the concept of forceful population transfer. 85% of Jews who established Israel in 1948 came there between 1917 and 1948. Zionist terror groups (Haganah, Irgun, Stern Gang, etc…) unleashed their terror campaigns to drive Palestinians out their homes to make place for the newly arriving Jews. The Zionist terror groups succeeded to drive 800,000 Palestinians out of their homes through well-orchestrated massacres, rapes and home demolitions.
Most Israeli Prime Ministers since 1948 were in fact founding members of the Zionist terror groups. Ben-Gurion, Menachem Begin, Yitzhak Shamir, Ariel Sharon were few of the terrorist figures who led Israel since 1948. The slaughter of Palestinians and the theft of their land have been going on since.
Israel was founded on terror and is still a terrorist State.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 10:28am
You misunderstand, nobody. I never claimed the israeli in quotes "people" were not inventive. Quite diabolically so:
http://www.vtjp.org/report/Israels_New_Weapons.php
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 10:29am
rykart-It was you who failed to understand what you read.You have a habit of doing that because you are young,impulsive,and know so little about life and have not been properly educated in the basics..Mainly,your posts consist of nothing more than knee jerk hatred.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 10:33am
freiheit1
is it possible for you to stop apologizing for crimes that are perpetrated by your jewish bretheren?your well know clown of the holocaust industry elie the piggish weasel have recently been massaging jahon hagee,s(a known anti semite) testicles on behalf of your atrocious and criminal acts and you still dare to accuse others of hate and prejudice.this is realy vero low and smacks of serious hypocricy.who gives a shit that you zionists contributed to the internet which is not true.
you steal land,kill women and kids and destroy farms and animals ,hospitals and homes and you dare to accuse others who show concern for the well being of an occupied nation as hateful.you are the one who is hateful.it is your digraceful and gutter and racist ideology that is hateful.your leaders,the fugitive war criminals,are the ones who are hateful.
you are a real hypocrite.you kill and destroy and colonize and at the same time accuse others of hate. take a look at yourself in the mirror.you are the one who is the real hate monger.
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 10:37am
rykart-It was you who failed to understand what you read.You have a habit of doing that because you are young,impulsive,and know so little about life and have not been properly educated in the basics..Mainly,your posts consist of nothing more than knee jerk hatred. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 10:33am
an impressively fact-free post. But then, that's your specialty, eh?
Why don't you "educate me in the basics"
(This should be good!)
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 10:48am
excalibur-Freiheit is Jewish?Actually,he is a Christian.According to your fellow nutcases I'm secretly Jewish,too and only pretend to study things,like Taoism, because I'm part of an international Jewish conspiracy and I'm just trying to fool you guys..None of your fellow nutcases can tell me why I would pretend all of that,but they are sure I'm in disguise,though.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 10:53am
rykart-I already educated you in the basics when I pointed out how you have difficulty understanding what you read and then gave you an example of that.The fact that you did not know that I already educated you in the basics explains your posts.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 10:56am
rykart,
ttp://www.vtjp.org/report/Israels_New_Weapons.php This site is "slam-dunk" indictment of the Zionists; their worst nightmare. You wonder how could our "free and impartial" American mainstream media missed it.
It seems like "nobody' is quite a wise guru. He feels comfortable in his own skin to lecture others on life-learning experience. Let me take a guess: Nobody could be a proud graduate of one of these hate-filled, brain-washing For-Jews-Only Schools. He could also be an ex-member of the IDF, where he gained life-long learning on how to shoot and kill Palestinian stone-throwing kids. He may even draw on his experience of smashing the bones of Palestinian kids on the West Bank.
The Goldstone Report is replete with horror stories of Israeli criminals who mastered the art of murdering unarmed civilians in Gaza. Maybe all of us can learn more about this from the experienced nobody.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 11:04am
i,m nobody
i can care less wether he is a jew,christian or of any other religion or creed.he is a zionist and to me the zionists are nothing but a but a bunch of thugs and hudlums.i have no respect for land thieves and killers of women and kids.if you do apply your respect to such degenerate killers(the zionists)then you obviously have some problems.this has nothing to do with judaism or religion.this issue is about human rights and justice and you fail to mention that.
your support for killers and racists is really appaling.
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 11:17am
excalibur-I do not support you racists nor do I support killers.Unlike most blog posters,I'm not a fanatic and do not support anything unconditionally,like the pro Israel fanatics,nor do I do mindless knee jerk hatred pro Pal craziness,like the anti Israel group.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 11:33am
cripthink-Thank you for verifying that you are a mentally ill(paranoid)fanatic.Actually,I went to a small Methodist college where there was only one Jew in the school.Never been to Israel,but you will continue to believe I have been there because you are nuts.Do not feel bad though.The other side has it's share of crazy fanatics,too.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 11:37am
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 10:37am
I've made no apologies for, nor have I attempted to defend the accusations leveled by you and the others here expressing your clearly racial hatred against Israelis specifically and Jews in general.
Frankly, when I come across people with such over the top fanaticism, I get suspicious. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if you, rycart and CripThink are actually fanatically pro-Israeli. Because you are all so incredibly irrational and impossible to relate to, I think you are doing it purposefully.
What better way to marginalize your opposition than to BE your opposition?
How can I, as an American, find someone who refers to Israelis as pigs and filth and claims such outlandish atrocities as credible? I would no sooner believe somone attributing such atrocities to the Palestinians.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:16pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 11:37am
nobody,
Your defense of a racist state conveys time-wasted at whatever mental institution you have attended. Go get an elementary course on the history of Zionism before spewing your counterfeit wisdom to others. Your proclaimed middle of the road stand demonstrates the kind of deluded idiot you are. The only talent you have displayed so far is sheer hypocrisy, so don't let it get to your head dude. You are indeed the "nobody", as advertised.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 12:33pm
cripthink-Your prior post to me proved beyond any doubt that you are mentally ill.The level of paranoia you showed by claiming that I went to a Jewish school and am a former member of the IDF showed a complete disconnect with reality.Obviously,it is you who is delusional.It is hysterical how you folks who try to portray yourselves as intelligent think that you can put me down by mentioning my id.I'm the one who calls myself Nobody and you brilliant people think you are going to be putting me down by pointing out my id.Use whatever brains you fanatics have left and try to learn how to form logical and reasonable thoughts or take your medications and go to sleep.You fanatics,on both sides,have no solutions for any problems.You are the problem.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 12:51pm
CripThink, go somewhere else and vomit all that hatred, when your feeling better, spew those chunks somewhere else, could you please?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:55pm
God forbid we should all be "middle of the road", but than radicals from both sides have not learned that lesson yet.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:58pm
Pakistan was created based on swap of land, where Hindu and Muslims engaged in civil war and had to swap territories to make space for the emergence of Pakistan.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 10:28am
But why did the British colony have to fragment into Pakistan (eventually Pakistan and Bangladesh) and India? Didn't Mohandas Gandhi want a unified country? Isn't the current trouble in Jammu and Kashmir a result of the split?
Posted by Mistral at 11/04/2009 @ 1:09pm
How can I, as an American, find someone who refers to Israelis as pigs and filth and claims such outlandish atrocities as credible? I would no sooner believe somone attributing such atrocities to the Palestinians. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:16pm
Please clarify.
Are you referring to the atrocities outlined in Justice Goldstone's report, or the Israeli atrocities described almost daily in Ha'aretz, or the atrocities described in lengthy, stomach turning detail by Israel's own human rights bureau Bt'Selem or are you referring to some OTHER atrocities carried out by the Israeli Nazi sewage which appear in the reports of countless eye-witnesses, Jewish and non-Jewish, Israeli, European and American?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:11pm
nor do I do mindless knee jerk hatred pro Pal craziness,like the anti Israel group. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 11:33am |
Nor do you speak English, you silly wood boring insect.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:14pm
spew those chunks somewhere else, could you please?
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:55pm
Will spew it on you madam; it may induce some manner into you empty skull.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 1:18pm
rykart-If you get out of your pajamas and into school you will discover that all my words exist in the English language and you respond to those words.I have nothing against wood boring insects and find them to be quite useful in the natural world.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 1:20pm
If my scull is empty CripThink, than I would that it stay empty than it be filled with your hate filled crap.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:25pm
freiheit
i.m neither a fanatic nor a purveyor of it.i simply defend the right of those who are oppressed by group of racists who look upon their victims as subhumans and in the case of your mentor menachem begin 2 legged animals.i am a supporter of palestinan people because i believe and know that their struggle is a just and a rightful one.they are the victims of your racist ideology and you are trying,very shrewdly,to hide it.it will not work.israel and her supportet who whore themselves,just like that low scum elie weisel,who frequents the temples and churches of anti semitism can not any longer hide and cover up the crimes of zionism.
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:26pm
God forbid we should all be "middle of the road", but than radicals from both sides have not learned that lesson yet. Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 12:58pm
Denise29
You are the filthy radical madam who are led by the collar to subsidize the murdering of Palestinian kids. The Zionists are controlling your Congress and are extorting you to the magnitude of 5 billions annually. Your delusion about democracy and moderation is appalling. Idiot like you are fed and led like cows to your slaughterhouse in Iraq and Afghanistan, while your Zionist patrons are laughing all the way to the bank.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 1:36pm
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:26pm
Your point is valuable and ought to be expanded upon.
Elie Weisel and his Israeli pals feign outrage over anti-Semitism, but in truth, the pro-Israel crowd could care less about real Jew hatred and anti-Semitism.
That is why Weisel calls John Hagee, (the born-again psychopath who claims that Hitler's shoah was part of God's divine plan) "the good pastor" and is thrilled to appear at his side in public.
That's why the mafioso Silvio Berlusconi can give a speech praising Mussolini, who sent Jews to their death, and still be welcomed as a rock star by the adoring Israelis. Shortly after Berlusconi's repulsive speech, he was awarded the ADL's "Distinguished Statesman of the Year" award!
Gianfranco Fini, another italian fascist and virulent anti-Semite also has no problem visiting Israel, where he is treated as a dignitary, do to his pro-Nazi pro-Israel politics.
The Israelis are the greatest fomenters of anti-Semitism, but their preposterous claim to care about the Jews of the world makes for good propaganda.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:37pm
Posted by excalibur999 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:26pm
You, cripThink and rykart are just pretending to be skinheads.
i'm nobody and denise29 have also pegged you for the frauds you are.
Thanks for showing us how foolish hatred looks.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:40pm
Thanks for showing us how foolish hatred looks. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:40pm
inane
Try making a point or responding to one.
Just for variety's sake.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:41pm
rykart-None of you have made any points that one can respond to.You,like the fanatics on the other side,just repeat views that are non reality based and it is never good to argue with crazy people.You just try to get them to get help.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 1:44pm
On Fini and other cheerful supporters of Judeo-Nazism:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/1751457.stm
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:45pm
Thanks for showing us how foolish hatred looks.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:40pm
freiheit1,
Shut up; you Zionist. Go back to the West Bank and do what you do best; shooting of Palestinian kids.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 1:46pm
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:41pm
Naw, you don't make a point worthy of response.
And I've already made the point about where you're coming from, rykart, and you supported my suspicions about you by stating, "The Israelis are the greatest fomenters of anti-Semitism."
Please put me on ignore. Thanks.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:53pm
rykart-None of you have made any points that one can respond to.You,like the fanatics on the other side,just repeat views that are non reality based and it is never good to argue with crazy people.You just try to get them to get help. Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 1:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The Goldstone report is not based in realty?
Nor are the reports of Amnesty International, Human Rights watch Bt'selem or thousands of stories in Ha'aretz about the scum of Israel and their abominations.
Sure. That's highly credible.
hmm...maybe the entire world sees something you refuse to, you methodist schistosome?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 1:53pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 1:46pm
Haha! CripThink, you should coordinate your stories with rykart, don't you think? Doesn't he claim that Israeli settlers usually just run over the little children with their cars?
Please put me on ignore. Thanks.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:56pm
"The Israelis are the greatest fomenters of anti-Semitism, but their preposterous claim to care about the Jews of the world makes for good propaganda"(rykart)
I agree with you 1000000%. Add another 0. That's why you see Jews stealing money from Jews as in Madoff and other vermin like him. All in the name of Judaism, my Judaism.These monstrous megalomaniacs will destroy themselves and bring Israel down with them just like Samson did the pillars of the temple.You can start the process by boycotting Starbucks.
Posted by mystic at 11/04/2009 @ 1:58pm
Naw, you don't make a point worthy of response. And I've already made the point about where you're coming from, rykart, and you supported my suspicions about you by stating, "The Israelis are the greatest fomenters of anti-Semitism." Please put me on ignore. Thanks. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:53pm
It's not that my points are not worthy of response but that you CAN'T respond--for example to the 3 reprehensible goals of Israel that you requested and I provided, all rather voluminously documented, nor the war crimes and crimes against humanity, also voluminously documented in preparation for ruling by the Hague. Basically, you're just full of crap.
By the way, if you don't think Israel's criminal behavior has provoked global resentment to Israel and--sadly--to Jews in general in many cases, you are living in an underground cicada nest.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:01pm
rykart-Just because I went to a Methodist college does not mean that I'm a Methodist.I'm not a Methodist,but I have nothing against them,either.The entire world does not share your views as is obvious from just here at the Nation blog.Your views are 100% one sided which makes them non reality based. All views that are one sided are not reality based.Any time humans are involved there will be many sides to the story and once you fanatics figure that out you will be on the road to recovery.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 2:01pm
Please put me on ignore. Thanks.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 1:56pm
freheit1,
You Felt a bit emboldened; I take it; since you are not the lone wolf anymore. A couple of Zionists came to your rescue. You have been ignored for long time, since you have never presented anything, but Zionist's smokescreens.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 2:10pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 2:01pm
As you've managed absolutely nothing by way of defending "the other side" i don't take you very seriously.
Nor do I think "the other side" of arguments denouncing racism and supporting the fundamental rights of a people confined to what is repeatedly described as "the largest open air prison in the world" are worthy of consideration, any more than I consider the heartfelt opinions of Jack the Ripper worthy of consideration.
No, quite obviously, there are NOT two sides to every issue, despite the shopworn adage. But plainly, you haven't the least interest in what is actually going on in the West Bank and Gaza, because the victims are of no interest to you. Rather than admit this simple fact, you prefer to hide behind this "two sides of the story" load of baloney. It's easier for you.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:12pm
rykart-Just because I went to a Methodist college does not mean that I'm a Methodist.I'm not a Methodist
Today, the Methodists have something to rejoice in.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:14pm
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:01pm
Naw, I'm not living in an underground cicada nest at all rykart.
Here, let me throw you this bone. I think and believe you are full of crap. But - and read this punk - I don't KNOW for sure you are full of crap and can disprove you.
I plan to educate myself on your claims with the goal of KNOWING you are full of crap. And I am open-minded enough to know there is a chance I will instead discover - to what would be my great dismay - you are right about what you claim to be fact.
I know for a fact there were millions of Germans who had no real knowledge of the Endloesung. I know for a fact that millions of my fellow Americans have no idea that our current economic problems are by design or that anthropogenic global warming is a ruse.
And I want to know for a fact you are full of crap. And not just feel you are.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:16pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 2:10pm
Do you use shaving cream and a blade, or an electric razor to shave your head every day? LOL!
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:26pm
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:16pm
Well frei..this is the first post you've made that, I'll offer grudging respect for, (your insults aside). Facts are indeed the key.
So I'll give you a snippet of personal history. I grew up in a non-religious Jewish household. I wasn't involved with the issue of Israel at all other than to recognize what every good Jewish kid learns early on: The world is a cauldron of anti-Semitism and no one hates us more than the terrible Arabs who want to wipe the tiny, struggling state of Israel off the map because they are barbaric and hate the Jews.
At some point, for reasons no longer recoverable, I began to question these assumptions. Who are these awful people, the Palestinians? Why are they so anti-Israel? Have they ANY claims that merit consideration? How did this mess start? Is it really as they say--that the Palestinians are Darth Vader and the Israelis are Luke Skywalker?
I began to read. A LOT. And I came to find that the truth was completely the opposite of what I'd been told. The Israelis are in the wrong and are committing a horrifying injustice to these people, most of them poor, and utterly defenseless. The land these violent crimes are being committed on does NOT belong to Israel--not one single sand grain of it. So I hope you read and acquaint yourself with the situation and end up agreeing or violently DISAGREEING with me, but doing so on the basis of verifiable information. Either way, you'll be light years ahead of clods like 'i'm nobody' who seem to wear their ignorance like a gawdy bolo tie picked up at a craft fair.
as to climate change, I'm not sure why you'd put your faith in the people who can't managed to produce peer reviewed science, unless you view the entire scientific community as a vast conspiracy
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
rykart-In the real world there are always more than one side of the story,but you fanatics view yourselves as the center of the universe and your egos and mental illness tell you that only your views matter and all of you ignore facts presented to you in order to stay in your fanatical fantasy worlds.You are not very good at putting me down and you should give up on that.I do not care whether or not Methodists would want me in their denomination.If you were the brilliant person you believe yourself to be you would have know that I would not care what Methodists thought when I said that I was not a Methodist.If I cared then I would become a Methodist.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
I know for a fact that millions of my fellow Americans
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:16pm
freiheit1,
How could you in good faith reconcile the above statement with your fatal attachment to Israel? Your dual loyalty is obvious. It is only a matter of time before your name will be on the same list as the spies: Jonathan Pollard, Ben-Ami Kadish, Steven Rosen, Keith Weissman and Stewart Nozette. Like you, they all called themselves Americans while stealing our top national security materials and passing it to Israel.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
No information. No facts. No rebuttal to facts--reports of Goldstone and the human rights community, statements of prominent Jews (and non-Jews) that render your warped perspective null and void.. No nothing.
Post rejected.
...not sure why you are so incapable of putting a thought together.
Perhaps Methodism would help.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:42pm
rykart-the fact that you think I would care if you take me seriously or not is a good example of that out of control ego that you fanatics have.If you were as brilliant as you believe yourself to be you would have known that I do not care what you,or any other fanatic,thinks since I know that fanatics are mentally ill people who need help.I'm not putting you guys down by saying that because I was a crazy person who needed and got help.I'm still crazy,but,at least,I know that and am working on it and am just encouraging you guys to get some help.I was not a fanatic,but just had some PTSD,but being crazy is being crazy.Being crazy myself and having worked with crazy people I can spot other crazy people and you guys are crazy,but there is hope..
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 2:46pm
rykart-In the real world there are always more than one side of the story
though curiously, i never hear you pro-Israel loons calling for "a more nuanced interpretation" of the Janjaweed's murder of innocent Africans in the countryside, or "a more even-handed view" of the siege of the Warsaw ghetto. Indeed, it would seem that many political tragedies are quite one-sided, except when the oppressors happen to be Israeli. Then suddenly, what would be reprehensible abominations plain and simple in any other context, are suddenly complex moral dilemmas to be grappled with.
A load of bull and you know it.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:46pm
No information. No facts. No rebuttal to facts--reports of Goldstone and the human rights community, statements of prominent Jews (and non-Jews) that render your warped perspective null and void.. No nothing.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:42pm
rykart,
He is the Methodist Medicine man!LOL
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 2:49pm
Is there Methodism in his madness?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:53pm
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
rykart, anthropogenic is the key word. I don't dispute the real-time scientific data on temp variations. Who does? The ruse is global warming is caused by man and the destruction of the global economy is the solution. Just a glance at the global environmental movement's roots in the 70's reveal the true goal of the movement.
Global warming is just like your claims about Israel.
The truth is only revealed by exposing the incentives.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:57pm
cripthink-going to a Methodist college does not mean that one is a Methodist.The fact that I said a Jew went there should have been your first clue that some non Methodists attended the school.I'm not even a Christian let alone a Methodist.The fact that I mentioned that I study Taoism and other such things should have been your first clue that I was not a Methodist Christian.Like fanatics on the other side,you pay no attention to what you read and simply read into posts, and everything else, what you want to read into them.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:02pm
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
Did I not say that in the context of relunctantly loaning your position on this issue of Israel some credence, based on my honest inability to factually dismiss your outrageous contentions?
You are an idiot, CripThink, and not even a useful one.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:06pm
Is there Methodism in his madness?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:53pm
rykart,
Listen to the dude; I take that it is my turn now to put up with his BS.
The man is mentally screwed; he has anointed himself as fatherly figure, passing on his life-long experience to others free of charge. This loner was once depicted in one of Steinbeck's novels; the one who ended up talking to his horse when no one was willing to listen anymore.
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 3:08pm
rykart, anthropogenic is the key word. I don't dispute the real-time scientific data on temp variations. Who does? The ruse is global warming is caused by man and the destruction of the global economy is the solution. Just a glance at the global environmental movement's roots in the 70's reveal the true goal of the movement. Global warming is just like your claims about Israel. The truth is only revealed by exposing the incentives. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:57pm
I don't agree with you about the supposedly nefarious agenda of the "global environmental movement" but let's for the sake of argument say I do. Surely you're not going to deny an extreme vested interest among the oil lobby to discount AGW? If we remove these two factions, both of whom we assume to have a hidden agenda and neither of whom possess the expertise in this realm of science to make any authoritative proclamations, who are we left with? We're left with the scientific authorities on climate science and their opinions, which we SEEM to agree ought to carry the day.
Now if you are claiming that the consensus among peer reviewed experts in climate science is that AGW is not real and drastically lowering the world's carbon footprint is not essential, I'm really at a loss as to where you are getting your information.
I'm curious about your choice of words. By saying AGW is a "ruse" you imply that the overwhelming majority of climate scientists are not merely wrong, but are engaged in scientific fraud on an altogether unprecedented global scale. That sure sounds like a lunatic conspiracy theory to me.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:13pm
Did I not say that in the context of relunctantly loaning your position on this issue of Israel some credence, based on my honest inability to factually dismiss your outrageous contentions?
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:06pm
Ok Freiheit1; Israel's spying on America is a serious topic. Do you want to talk about it?
Posted by CripThink at 11/04/2009 @ 3:13pm
You Rykart need to grow up, life is not as simple or as complex as you would have it, and anger like yours will not solve anything, if you want to really help the palestinians you need to get your temper in check. Thats number one. You can't go to the next step until you complete the first step. Sorry, but that is also real life, whether you like it or not.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:14pm
cripthink-If you work on your reading comprehension skills you will discover that I have never presented myself as a fatherly figure who is passing on my life long experience to others.What I said was that I am a crazy person who worked with crazy people and can recognize my own kind.Other crazy people such as you fanatics on both sides.Referring to yourself a crazy person is a bit different than handing out fatherly advice,unless,of course,your dad was a crazy person,like my kids dad.I have already said I was mentally screwed and you thought you were putting me down by repeating what I said about myself which proves you pay no attention to what you read and put no thought into your views.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:14pm
posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:14pm
Thanks for your online anger management class denise29. My nerves are quite at ease actually, though I appreciate the concern.
To get my dander up, you Zionist types would have to present an argument in support of your views, which never seems to happen, as the facts are so overwhelmingly against you.
Anger isn't the problem here.
Boredom is the problem.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:22pm
rykart-Actually,both sides do post their one sided version of facts,but,as you,cripthink,and others, have proven,none of you pay attention to what you read when you think it's the other side saying it so none of you would know if the other side posted a fact because you would ignore it or read something into it that isn't there..
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:26pm
posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:14p
Just to let you know, declaring "I'm a crazy person" does not in general lend weight to one's arguments on a given topic, Israel-Palestine or any other. It doesn't even make one an authority on being crazy. If it did, we'd promote jeffrey dahmer to the post of surgeon general.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:29pm
rykart-Jeffery Dahmer was not crazy.He had a personality disorder.If you get out of your pajamas and into the real world you will discover that there are varying degrees of things and since I stated I was working then,obviously,I was not too crazy.I,also,stated that I went to college and worked with crazy people.Put some thought into a post and take a guess at what subjects a college student would study if they worked with crazy people.I did not say I knew you guys were crazy just because I'm crazy.I studied crazy and worked with crazy.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:35pm
rykart-Jeffery Dahmer was not crazy.
Let's all drink that in a moment, shall we?
Can we savor that a bit, like a delicate sauterne?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:39pm
rykart-The reason Dahmer could stand trial is because he was not crazy and had a personality disorder.He was judged to be sane.There is a huge difference between being mentally ill and having a personality disorder.Of course,I noticed that you did not include the part where I said he had a personality disorder and only responded to the first part.You are quite dishonest.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:44pm
posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:44pm
But you claimed repeatedly that you ARE crazy, (and would presumably not be judged fit to stand trial).
Are you now claiming that you are not crazy after all, but merely have a personality disorder, (like Dahmer)?
I don't get.
What's your game, nobody?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:49pm
rykart-I already said that there are varying degrees of craziness and since I held down a very responsible job I would be deemed fit to stand trial.No.PTSD is not defined as a personality disorder,but as a mental illness.A personality disorder can be quite serious and not something one "merely"has as I think Dahmer,Bundy,and others prove.I have no doubt that you do not get it since you,obviously,pay no attention to what you read or put thought into your posts or views.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:57pm
Can we savor that a bit, like a delicate sauterne?
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:39pm
It's Sauternes, with an s. And Sauternes aren't delicate at all.
You should have said Chianti. That would have been funny and would have been the correct nod to Silence of the Lambs...
Nazis like to act cultured, but aren't though, so I'm not surprised.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:59pm
Rykart, me a zionest? Yawn.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 4:13pm
Denise-These guys have no idea what a Zionist is.That's odd considering that most claim to be Jewish.They are either lying about being Jewish or they are the worlds most ignorant Jews.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 6:15pm
Can we savor that a bit, like a delicate sauterne? Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 3:39pm It's Sauternes, with an s. And Sauternes aren't delicate at all. You should have said Chianti. That would have been funny and would have been the correct nod to Silence of the Lambs... Nazis like to act cultured, but aren't though, so I'm not surprised. Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 3:59pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I see. Now you've moved from global warming specialist to resident sommelier.
You're a grade A nut.
Sadly (though not surprisingly) you're also wrong.
http://www.easy-french-food.com/sauterne-wine.html
Again.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 6:36pm
Still--as outlandish and utterly crap-infused as your posts invariably are freiheit1, you have some stiff competition from I'm nobody, who insists Jeffrey Dahmer was sane, based on nobody's detailed knowledge of psychiatric disorders. The court declared Dahmer fit to stand trial..so it's official, he's NOT insane. Boy--that's a real persuasive argument. (For a half wit, anyway.)
The guy makes your daffy conspiracy theories about climate change look almost sensible.
It's an honor to be in the presence of two world class authorities.
On nothing.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 6:44pm
As to your knowledge of sauterne(s), global warming, the Mid East or anything else, it would seem the noble rot has infected your brain.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 6:50pm
i'm nobody, I'll go with your second guess.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 7:16pm
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 6:50pm
:-) Golly, Gomer, you are breaking my heart with your insults. Actually, it's been fun.
So let's review. You are a fanatic self-loathing Jew who appears convinced Israelis run over Palestinian children with their cars for fun. (To your credit, you do have the same winning charm as the "pro-choice" SS Officer holding Sophie's children.) And from what I can see across multiple blogs you are a busy little beaver, spreading the word, aren't you?
To further demonstrate your comical gullibility, (or does it identify your true incentives against Israel?) on the other hand, you are a hook-line-and-sinker-Al-Gore-lovin' global warming nutcase chock full of "settled science." (Does watching "The Day After Tomorrow" give you a woody?)
Oh, and run along and find someone who actually knows something about wine and tell them in detail how you "showed me", hahahaha! Mention how burgundy means red wine, and print out the webpage you googled to confirm it!
Later rykart, unless I see you first. And please don't take me any more seriously than I take you. That would spoil it.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 7:40pm
Yowza friheitz1, good one.
Posted by Denise29 at 11/04/2009 @ 7:44pm
Hi frei
You know, you were on the right track admitting earlier that despite having a big mouth, you were utterly unequipped to address the mid east situation as you know absolutely zero about it. You assured us however, that you'd go off and actually LEARN some facts about the matter you have such strong (though laughably ill-informed) opinions about.
"I plan to educate myself on your claims with the goal of KNOWING you are full of crap. And I am open-minded enough to know there is a chance I will instead discover - to what would be my great dismay - you are right about what you claim to be fact." Posted by freiheit1 at 11/04/2009 @ 2:16pm
I think you should apply the same can-do spirit to global warming. Start with the IPCC report and begin working your way through relevant peer reviewed literature produced by people who actually work in this field.
please note: GLEN BECK IS NOT INVOLVED IN CLIMATE RESEARCH.
I realize this will come as a crushing blow to a textbook nutcase like you. Deep breaths. It will be ok. Open a good magazine like Nature, Scientific American, Science, etc and at least TRY to get your brain out of the septic tank it has been languishing in.
oh..and you might try laying off the alcohol. Prancing around in a drunken stupor spouting nonsense hardly qualifies you as a wine connoisseur.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/04/2009 @ 8:35pm
Oh by the way, your hysterically poor reading skills are quite impressive. I never made the claim that Israelis attempt to run over Palestinians--crip did.
Unfortunately, (for you) the Israeli Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories, Bt'Selem has investigated and documented these claims:
"B'Tselem has documented cases of gunfire, threats of gunfire and killing, beatings, stone throwing, use of attack dogs, attempts to run over Palestinians, destruction of farming equipment and crops, theft of crops, killing and theft of livestock and animals used in farming, unauthorized demands to see identification cards, and theft of documents."
http://tiny.cc/4hwer
I know, I know...why examine documents or facts or consult experts when you can spout idiotic nonsense and be proved a liar in .02 seconds?
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/04/2009 @ 8:43pm
More on your adorable friends:
http://tiny.cc/o33le
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/04/2009 @ 9:37pm
rykart-The experts said that Dahmer had a personality disorder.Of course,being a fanatic your ego tells you that the world revolves around you and only you are the expert.That is part of the pathology of fanaticism.Thank you for helping show that to the degree that you did by declaring yourself to be the expert and not psychiatrists, doctors,etc that examined Dahmer.You see,someone that is insane,like you think Dahmer was,cannot plan things like he did nor can they look and act so normal and get away with such things for that long.Get out into the world and learn something.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 9:51pm
Medicine doesn't recognize insanity as a diagnosis, preferring, various mental disorders, many still poorly defined.
If it appeals to you to make a distinction between "a personality disorder" and insanity in the case of someone who sautéed victim's calf muscles and showered with chopped up corpses, go for it. The scientific value of what you're saying, despite your incessant boasting of treating (and exhibiting) mental illness, is zero.
"You see,someone that is insane,like you think Dahmer was,cannot plan things like he did nor can they look and act so normal and get away with such things for that long."
That's a legal (and extremely childish) definition of insanity, useful to the court system but again, worthless in scientific terms. Sorry.
Posted by SmashIsrael at 11/04/2009 @ 10:32pm
"There is a huge difference between being mentally ill and having a personality disorder." Posted by i'm nobody at 11/04/2009 @ 3:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Interesting.
I appreciate you "educating" me on this topic. You should also "educate" the nice folks at the NIMH, who write:
"Borderline personality disorder (BPD) is a serious mental illness ..."
http://tiny.cc/H3Q4m
Perhaps when you stop in for your next mental health evaluation, you can speak to them about your advanced theories.
I'm sure they'll be intrigued.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 11:17pm
Wow. If I didn't have a dose of abuse today I could just come here and enjoy it vicariously. Which I did. Free abuse.
I don't even have to recycle a container.
Posted by ficheye at 11/05/2009 @ 02:19am
Posted by ficheye at 11/05/2009 @ 02:19am |
Stopping in to see if this thread had managed to recover from Israel Rot, I noticed that it had somehow come around to Jiffy Jeff Dahmer.
Backing away slowly so as not to spook the natives...
Posted by snowball777 at 11/05/2009 @ 07:11am
Speaking of "WALLS" the topic of this thread, perhaps truth could be better served by perusing wallbuilders.com to edify our own knowledge of our own American Heritage rather than posturing about other nations?
In the Old Testament book of Nehemiah, the nation of Israel rallied together in a grassroots movement to help rebuild the walls of Jerusalem and thus restore stability, safety, and a promising future to that great city. We have chosen this historical concept of "rebuilding the walls" to represent allegorically the call for citizen involvement in rebuilding our nation's foundations. As Psalm 11:3 reminds us, "If the foundations be destroyed, what shall the righteous do?"
Posted by BigPasture at 11/05/2009 @ 08:22am
The land these violent crimes are being committed on does NOT belong to Israel--not one single sand grain of it.
Posted by rykart at 11/04/2009 @ 2:35pm
This is, of course, one position to take. The position not that the Israelis should have the status as of 1967, nor even 1948, but that the state should not even exist at all. This sort of thing does happen in diplomatic negotiations. Gandhi didn't want Pakistan to exist as a separate state, China doesn't want Tibet to exist as a separate state, China and Taiwan's official position is that there is one China only, Poland has been absorbed (and reconstituted) several times, perhaps some citizens of Czechoslovakia did not want to see the creation of Slovakia and the Czech Republic, Kurdistan even now is divided among three other nations.
But why take this position here? Is it because the original negotiations were flawed, that the division of the Middle East into Egypt, Israel, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, etc. after the fall of empires was not legally proper, or is it that Israel's conduct after the creation of that nation-state somehow deprives them of the very right to exist, or is it that eventually the economic and military imbalance of power will result in the extinction of Israel, so better just get used to it now?
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 09:23am
rykart-I'm sorry that I stressed out your brain.I'm sorry that you cannot understand a very simple concept like telling the difference between a person who is too insane to stand trial and someone with a personality disorder who can stand trial.The fact that you cannot grasp such a simple concept explains your posts.Yes,personality disorders are placed under the blanket umbrella of mental diseases,but personality disorders are not caused by biological factors like a mental illness is.These are two different pathologies.These are not my theories.It is just basic psych 101.If you ever manage to graduate from high school you can learn about these things.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 10:04am
rykart-Let me make this even simpler for you.Your standard forms of mental illness can be treated with therapy and medications.There are no medications or forms of therapy that can turn a sociopath into a caring human.Some headway has been made with people who have milder forms of personality disorders,but no one has figured out what causes a Dahmer or Bundy to exist,although are theories on the subject.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 10:30am
As I say nobody, you really need to acquaint the people at the National Institute of Mental Health about your theories regarding personality disorders, because they quite plainly are under the impression that they fall under the heading of "serious mental illness"
NAMI--The National Alliance On Mental Illness appear to be similarly deluded:
"Borderline Personality Disorder (BPD) is an often misunderstood, serious mental illness characterized by pervasive instability in moods, interpersonal relationships, self image and behavior."
http://tiny.cc/NqIDz
The British Journal of Psychiatry ALSO says you're full of shit, suggesting you fall under the category of pathological liar:
"The historical reasons for regarding personality disorders as fundamentally different from mental illnesses are being undermined by both clinical and genetic evidence. Effective treatments for personality disorders would probably have a decisive influence on psychiatrists' attitudes."
http://tiny.cc/iPiC8
oh my...this isn't going very well for you at all, is it?
I don't think I want to feed your apparent masochism any further.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 10:43am
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 09:23am
Hi mistral
You'll note that my statement refers to "the land these violent crimes are being committed on" by which i thought it was clear I referred to the Occupied Territories . Here, there is broad agreement that the Israelis are entitled to absolutely none of it. The argument concerning the legality of the land allotted Israel in the partition arrangement is another matter.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 10:48am
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 10:48am
Would you mind, just for clarity...answering a direct question-
Should Israel exist at all and if so, based on what parameters?
Posted by Mask at 11/05/2009 @ 10:52am
"Personality disorders are placed under the blanket umbrella of mental diseases,but personality disorders are not caused by biological factors like a mental illness " Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 10:04am
Again..that's fascinating.
Recent advances in the biological study of personality disorders
http://tiny.cc/BEdQg
Do have any CLUE the size of the library you would need to house all the scientific articles and books on the biological underpinnings of personality disorders??
I'd like to see you get ONE single thing right.
At this point, that would impress me.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 10:56am
Should Israel exist at all and if so, based on what parameters? Posted by Mask at 11/05/2009 @ 10:52am |
To start, I'm taking the term "Israel" to mean the state established in the pre-67 borders. As you know, Israel has always steadfastly refused to define its borders as it is an expansionist, settler state.
In my view, the people living in Israel have a right to continue living there, regardless of their religion. I do NOT support their right to permit the unimpeded immigration of foreign Jews while barring the return of those ethnically cleansed in 1948, 1967 or 2009.
It is quite conceivable that demographics will in time produce an Arab majority. That is simply the price of democracy, which Israel incessantly claims to be, despite the present absurdity of such claims.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 11:03am
The argument concerning the legality of the land allotted Israel in the partition arrangement is another matter.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 10:48am
---
I have great respect for courageous proponents of a one state resolution, where all citizens are granted equality under the law. Certainly, that is the best solution.
Posted by rykart at 10/30/2009 @ 12:20pm (on Robert Dreyfuss' blog - http:/ /www.thenation. com/blogs/dreyfuss /489601/j_street_ obama_and_israel)
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It would seem that last month rykart's position was that the best solution would be for Israel not to exist.
How this would work is, of course, subject to debate. Gandhi wanted there to be no independent Pakistan, China wants no independent Tibet. Hussein wanted no independent Kuwait.
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 11:11am
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 11:11am
That's like saying that if non-whites become a majority in the US, that means America has ceased to exist--an absurd conclusion.!
Non-whites will soon make up a majority of the US (if they don't already). The choice is to live in a pluralistic society or take the Israel approach--apartheid and ethnic cleansing, in order to maintain our "racial purity" --a well-recognized Nazi ideal.
I really don't see where the debate is on this, nor do sensible Israelis like Schlomo Sand, who say the whole Israeli approach is complete lunacy:
http://tiny.cc/BLjgJ
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 11:19am
rykart-Actually,this is going quite well for me.It's just that you remain unable to pay attention to what you read and are unable to put thought into the subject.As always,your responses are knee jerk.One more time.I have no theories on the subject and you are getting bits and pieces of information on a subject that covers volumes of books and study.You are looking up things that you think make me look bad,but you are only showing your own ignorance by going by bits and pieces of information.One more time-personality disorders are placed under the umbrella grouping of mental diseases and defects,but the pathology is different from what are considered to be your more common and standard mental illnesses.While I realize that this is too advanced for you to understand it really is not that complicated and something you probably can grasp if you put thought into it.Just as you have shown amazing ignorance on the subject of Israel and Jews by proving that you have no idea what Zionist is you are showing ignorance by looking up bits and pieces of information on a subject that requires years of study to even begin to grasp it.You are a Jew who has no idea what a Zionist is which is as ignorant as a Christian who has no idea what Christmas is.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 12:16pm
'Personality disorders are NOT due to biological causes according to the psychiatric community.' This was the latest totally FALSE claim of yours.
Keep digging...you're almost at the South Pole.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 12:42pm
"personality disorders are not caused by biological factors like a mental illness " Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 10:04am
Sorry..It doesn't take "years and years of study" to determine you're an idiot and a fraud who hasn't the vaguest idea what he's talking about.
It takes a fraction of a second.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 12:46pm
rykart-I'm not digging.You have shown amazing ignorance by not knowing what a Zionist is and have shown amazing ignorance by thinking that you can top me by looking up a small amount information on a subject that is quite complicated.You have provided no proof that biology is part of the pathology because there isn't any.There is a new theory that some personality disorders may be biological in nature,but you need to learn the difference between a theory and what has been proven.This is a very complicated subject with all kinds of groupings,sub groupings,etc and you think you can grasp all of that by looking up a couple of things online.The fact that you think you can look up a couple of things and then discuss a very complicated issue only shows amazing ignorance on your part.If you needed an operation would you be so ignorant as to look up a couple of things online so you can tell your surgeon how to perform the operation?You probably would.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 12:53pm
rykart-You are correct.It only took a second to figure that you are a fraud.You claim to be a Jew who has no idea what a Zionist is.The fact that you think that a subject this complicated does not take years of study to grasp only proves how ignorant and immature you really are.You are a child who wants to get the last word and do the last put down so I will permit you to do so in order to avoid you having a tantrum.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 12:58pm
"personality disorders are not caused by biological factors"
A definitive and utterly false (and dumb) statement.
I present sources in the field, you present your own, worthless opinions, backed up by nothing---same as frei and his anti-climate change lunacy. Neither of you can link reputable sources because you don't actually read and have no idea what you're talking about, (though you honestly believe you do).
Sad.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 1:02pm
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 12:58pm |
Astonishingly poor reading skills, nobody. I didn't say the study of psychiatry takes a fraction of a second to absorb, I said you're stupidity takes a fraction of a second to absorb, and I was probably being generous.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 1:06pm
raykart-I'm not surprised that you claim that you can absorb stupidity.Sorry.I was going to let you have the last put down,but you left yourself too open for that one.Now you can get the last put down.Go ahead.
Posted by i'm nobody at 11/05/2009 @ 1:13pm
I really don't see where the debate is on this,
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 11:19am
But what is it to be? When you say "one state resolution" does that mean a state including Gaza, the West Bank and the current state of Israel? But this would mean chopping off the former pieces of Egypt and Jordan. Would this new country still be called Israel?
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 1:13pm
Would this new country still be called Israel? Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 1:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I'm not sure, given the ongoing heartbreak and injustice, we ought to preoccupy ourselves too much at this point with what to call such a state.
You may have read in the Times today that Saeb Erekat, lead negotiator for the Palestinians is now suggesting one state, and Abbas has said he will step down, apparently in utter disgust with Israel and America's ongoing criminality and recalcitrance, so it appears more and more a certainty that Israel has slammed the door shut entirely on two-states. (The Palestinians, including Hamas, would have settled for either two states on the 67 borders or one democratic state. Israel insists there will be neither, but only an ever-shrinking cage for the Palestinians. ) http://tiny.cc/Z3cYn
So Olmert's nightmare is beginning to coalesce. Recall he said that soon two states would be impossible due to Israel's land theft and at that point, the Palestinians would be left with no choice but to demand equal rights in a greater Israel. Olmert was clear in saying that such a struggle for equal rights would have strong support among American Jewry and Israel would lose the support of the Jewish community they depend on to prop up their gangster state. "When that happens" Olmert warned.."Israel is finished."
So again, if the "Israel" we are talking about is one that brutalizes the indigenous people and deprives them of basic human rights, then many, myself included, will be quite happy to see it "finished."
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 1:32pm
many, myself included, will be quite happy to see it "finished."
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 1:32pm
But then what of the refugees from that country after it is "finished"? Will Jews expelled from Egypt and other Muslim countries over the years who came to Israel now be allowed to return? Will their confiscated property be restored?
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 1:53pm
mistral, i think you present as many straw men as you can conjure in order to avoid dealing with the fact that Israel has created this unsustainable, unjust and horrific situation and there will be consequences.
You wish to deflect attention with endless "what ifs" many of which don't seem to me, pertinent. The matter of Jews supposedly expelled from Arab lands seems rather murky at best. I'm no expert on that topic and would only say that if Jews or non-Jews can show that they were ethnically cleansed after international laws prohibiting such behavior, they have the right to return to their former homes. I see no such movement among Jews. (Nor does there seem to be the slightest interest among Iranian jews to emigrate to Israel, despite Israel's efforts to bribe and coerce them.)
In sum, your questions seem aimed at maintaining an unendurable status quo. Given the situation and all variables, given the fact that even hard-core advocates of two states now insist the proposal is physically inviable, alternatives must be found. Israel covets the land of the West Bank and Gaza and refuses to relinquish them. They must govern the occupants justly and I hate to tell them, that means making citizens of them.
The alternative is a Nazi alternative.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 2:02pm
The alternative is a Nazi alternative.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 2:02pm
...Nazi alternative, which, basically, would be fine with rykart... Maybe you'd round 'em all up in discos and kill 'em there? High five's all around, right? Remember? Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 2:56pm?
You see, rykart's ultimate goal is to see a global government based on collectivism. As long as Israel and the US have the power to function unilaterally, there can be no new world order. That's part of the foundation of his hatred of Israel.
rykart can't tolerate a belief in God either, which further drives his hatred for Israel (and I suspect of most Americans too) His humanistic, quasi-intellectual demeaner is very transparent. To me, his complete avoidance of any reference of Palestinian political leadership reveals his true contempt for arabs as well, except for their convenient use as pawns.
But hey, maybe I'm wrong, and rykart is a real Mensch. More like stench.
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/05/2009 @ 2:42pm
Our climatologist/sommelier is back!
(careful..I think he's drunk..)
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 3:04pm
an unendurable status quo
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 2:02pm
But what is to be done? If there are now no Jewish inhabitants of Gaza, where Jews have lived since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls, does that mean they were ethnically cleansed? Do they deserve compensation? Do the people, Muslims and Christians, who once lived in Israel, but now are in Gaza or the West Bank or Kuwait and so forth deserve compensation? Can these people return? If they are dead, can their grandchildren return?
The problem is that all the solutions seem to have the words "... peace... lawful... democratic... secure borders... equal..."
=>"One state where all citizens are granted equality under the law"
=>"The original 1948 decolonization settlement"
=>"Peace at the current borders, two states with land compensation to the Palestinian Authority for the land covered by the border fence."
=>"Two democratic states at the 1967 borders with an end to hostilities"
etc.
But whether or not these can work depends on the answers to endless "what ifs" because the world saw 1967 borders in 1967, the world saw 1948 borders in 1948. The world even sqw Israel with 1973 borders in 1973 with even more territory, which they gave up (and got a little piece of peace, with Egypt, at least). But peace, equality and democracy didn't break out at those times. A great deal of progress is necessary before we can say "this time it's different."
Who knows. When IDF forces took Jerusalem, it is said, it was the 57th time in history the city changed hands. Could it be we are looking at the beginning, not the end of centuries of strife?
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 3:45pm
just wait until the next Israeli discotheque is blown to shreds. They'll try to milk it for tears and play the victim card but the entire world will be laughing and high-five-ing each other.
Posted by rykart at 11/03/2009 @ 2:56pm
Well, thanks to you, I certainly won't be drinking in any Israeli discotheques any time soon!
Posted by freiheit1 at 11/05/2009 @ 3:46pm
Posted by Mistral at 11/05/2009 @ 3:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
I think you sound like a born one-stater, mistral. How else can we return the "ethnically cleansed" Jews of Gaza (bit if a stretch), without providing the same fundamental rights to Arabs born in Israel?
"If there are now no Jewish inhabitants of Gaza, where Jews have lived since the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls, does that mean they were ethnically cleansed? Do they deserve compensation? "
You're joking, right? They were given enormous compensation by Israel to get their worthless butts off Palestinian land, as opposed to Palestinians who every day for 60+ uninterrupted years have been terrorized from their homes which are bulldozed, leaving them without anywhere to live and utterly destitute. To draw a parallel between the plight of Israelis shifted from their illegal settlements in Gaza to illegal settlements in the West Bank (on extremely attractive terms), strikes me as an obscenity.
as to the rest, I believe again you deliberately attempt to muddy the waters, when a fairly basic, equitable arrangement has repeatedly been proposed. The Palestinians, including hamas, have repeatedly agreed to a compromise regarding right of return (which nevertheless IS an inalienable right that they have and the ICJ re-affirmed). Compensation for these people from israel, a token number permitted to return, 67 borders with minor and mutual border adjustments. The world accepts it and israel rejects it. The rest is all obfuscation.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 4:11pm
mistral--I'd only add that the connection between Jews who may have lived in the area of Gaza at the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls and the current settlers, many of whom are recent arrivals from Des Moines, Quebec or Stuyvesant Town who are busy brutalizing people they have booted from the homes they were born in, is dubious, to say the least.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 4:27pm
Jews who may have lived in the area of Gaza at the time of the Dead Sea Scrolls.
Posted by rykart at 11/05/2009 @ 4:27pm
Saying "may have" is just a way of sweeping under the rug people who couldn't be extinguished by the Romans or Crusaders or Ottomans or British but whose descendants survived down to the twentieth century. Now they are gone. Will they get "compensation"? Will a "token" number be allowed to return? Will the Queen of England be given the deed to Calais again?
Perhaps a peace settlement can be worked out. Greece and Turkey seem reconciled, though the Turks don't have their Balkan provinces and the Greeks don't have the Hagia Sophia and there is a bit of a contretemps over Cyprus.
Perhaps.
But there may be strife in Gaza in 2066 CE just as there was in 66 CE.
Posted by Mistral at 11/06/2009 @ 12:52pm
Posted by Mistral at 11/06/2009 @ 12:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Actually, the descendants of the hebrews of Israel and Judea are FAR more likely to be the present day Palestinians than some rabbi in brooklyn who claims entirely erroneous ties to the so-called Holy Land and means to expel the current inhabitants from their home. This is monstrous, inexcusable, morally repugnant and has no basis in fact, as Shlomo Sand and others show.
There is absolutely no case here whatsoever.
Posted by rykart at 11/06/2009 @ 3:33pm