Memo to Hillary: Friends Don't Let Friends ♥ Fascists

How much should it matter to Americans that David Cameron, who will probably become the Prime Minister of Britain in May, recently took his party out of the main center-right group in the European Parliament to join the European Conservative and Reformists (ECR)--a group whose chairman, Polish MEP Michal Kaminski, began his career in the neo-Fascist National Revival Party, and where the Tories' new bedfellows also include Roberts Zile, the Latvian MEP whose party annually marches alongside veterans of the Latvian SS?

A week ago, when I blogged on this issue in the Guardian, it seemed purely a British affair. But two things have led me to change my mind. First, London's chattering classes have spent the past week tying themselves up in knots over an invitation to Nick Griffin, leader of the racist British National Party, to appear on a BBC discussion program this Thursday evening. The BBC claim that by winning two seats in the European parliamentary elections last June the BNP demonstrated a level of national support which needed to be reflected in coverage. To those of us used to First Amendment protections even for arguments we abhor the debate may seem odd, but in a country where, until recently, duly elected Sinn Fein members of Parliament were banned from the airwaves, the decision to grant Griffin a platform has been extremely controversial.

At the same time, and perhaps not entirely coincidentally, Cameron's failure to revisit his alliance with the ECR has put a spotlight on this afternoon's meeting between Hillary Clinton and William Hague, the Tory MP who would become Foreign Secretary in a Cameron government. The British press, from Rupert Murdoch's anti-European Times across to the pro-European Guardian, worry that the Conservative's far-right BF's will make Britain a less useful--and therefore less influential--ally for Washington.

But even those of us who would like to see less of a poodle-and-master special relationship have sufficient reason to worry when Her Majesty's likely future government sees no harm in cozying up to a man like Kaminski, who not only wore the Chrobry Sword, insignia of the violently anti-Semitic National Radical Camp, as a young man, but also told the London Jewish Chronicle he thought the Polish government's 2001 decision to apologize for Jedwabne where in July 1941 the entire Jewish population were burned to death by their Polish neighbors--an apology Kaminski opposed--only made sense if "you would require from the whole Jewish nation to apologise for what some Jewish Communists did in Eastern Poland."

As for the Tories' Latvian comrades, perhaps the best source for information about them is Dovid Katz, a historian at Vilnius University who had to teach his course on the Holocaust in students' home after official pressure forced him off the campus. "The Western mainstream has been tricked," Katz told Jonathan Freedland, who points out that the motives behind these efforts to re-write history are not hard to fathom. Vilnius, after all, has a Museum of Genocide Victims commemorating the 74,500 Lithuanians who suffered under Moscow's rule without a single exhibit mentioning the 200,000 Jews murdered by their fellow Lithuanians. "These are ultra-nationalists," writes Freedland, "who want to clean up their past, recasting themselves as victims – and forgetting the years in which their forebears were, in fact, the bloodiest perpetrators."

Anyone who spends any time around Holocaust deniers knows the obstacle that the terrible fact of Auschwitz poses to those who would rehabilitate European fascism. Nor do you have to look very far to find a similar rage animating those on the right who, in their obsessive balancing of Hitler's crimes with Stalin's, act as if the entire Second World War were just an inconvenient episode in the heroic struggle against Communism. The question Secretary Clinton needs to ask herself--and perhaps to put to William Hague--is why on earth would you choose to have anything to do with these people?

Comments (55)

1. Hilarious.

   Why would Hillary have anything to do with Fascist Israel?

   Off the high horse please.

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 10:14am

2. You just keep giggling up there - on your very own high horse - as fascism returns to center-stage. And it will be everyone who suffers, by the way, not just those you are laughing at. Enjoy your 'one vote' in the meantime.

   Posted by TruthBeTold at 10/21/2009 @ 11:26am

3. You just keep giggling up there - on your very own high horse - as fascism returns to center-stage. And it will be everyone who suffers, by the way, not just those you are laughing at. Enjoy your 'one vote' in the meantime.

   Posted by TruthBeTold at 10/21/2009 @ 11:26am | ignore this person | warn this person

   Funny how fascism begets fascism isn't it?

   Your boy Olmert got a "chilly" reception in Chicago the other day - despite the University trying to protect him. Now there is some anti-fascsim that I support. Olmert is a war criminal, and he is a bigot and racist Zionist.

   Everyone (except Zionist fascists) are getting pretty tired with your Holocaust Industry. I notice that Israel was pretty slow to come around to the table on condemnation of the Armenian Holocaust - and I generally don't hear too much complaint about Stalin starving Ukranians from the Holocaust Howlers.

   The Star of David is getting a well deserved reputation as the New Swastika.

   Stop peddling your propaganda. You love "democracy" because your money can buy off politicians. It is the savior of a "minority," just like it is the savior of an aristocrat. Fascism gains ground for multiple reasons, including response of the masses who are sick and tired of corrupt politicians selling out their interest and calling it democracy.

   My vote doesn't mean squat and it hasn't for a long time. "We" are suffering already in case you haven't noticed. Nice job from "Democratic" Cabal. You must be enjoying the spoils of destruction and telling us to be onguard against fascism.

   Hilarious....truth be told.

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 11:53am

4. Excellent Q. HRC should ask it. Pity the British Labour Party has soured so many Brits due to its sucking up to W & joining US invasions here there everywhere.

   Posted by sloper at 10/21/2009 @ 11:57am

5. The Star of David is getting a well deserved reputation as the New Swastika.

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 11:53am

   Thanks for reminding those who may have doubted that you are a racist anti-semite

   Posted by antisocialist at 10/21/2009 @ 11:59am

6. Pity the British Labour Party has soured so many Brits due to its sucking up to W & joining US invasions here there everywhere.

   Posted by sloper at 10/21/2009 @ 11:57am | ignore this person | warn this person

   Yes indeed.

   And the poodle is being stroked in the boardrooms of New York and London Financial Districts.

   'On taking office as Chancellor of the Exchequer Brown gave the Bank of England operational independence in monetary policy, and thus responsibility for setting interest rates through the Bank's Monetary Policy Committee.[35] He also changed the inflation measure from Retail Price Index to Consumer Price Index and transferred responsibility for banking supervision to the Financial Services Authority.[36] Some commentators have argued that this division of responsibilities exacerbated the severity, in Britain, of 2007 global banking crisis.[37'

   Wiki

   Enough.

   Gordon Brown was doomed from the start.

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 12:46pm

7. Thanks for reminding those who may have doubted that you are a racist anti-semite

   Posted by antisocialist at 10/21/2009 @ 11:59am

   And you are a Rapture Racist Anti-Islamist Militaristic Christian Crusader Totalitarian.

   Furthermore, you are a tax cheat, and you are attempting to use the US Military and Taxpayer's Buck to proselytize your religion of hate and End of Days, wherein 2/3 of Jews must die. Now who is the Jew hater Larry?

   Holy War against Accountability for Tax Exemptions? My goodness!

   'It hasn't generated a lot of headlines, but in the world of religion and politics, it's a pretty big deal. Sen. Chuck Grassley (R-Iowa), the ranking Republican on the Senate Finance Committee, recently asked six high-profile, hyper-wealthy Pentecostal televangelists for their financial records, under the suspicion that they're using their ministries for personal gain. (Imagine that.)

   Not surprisingly, most of the televangelists' ministries have been loath to cooperate with the inquiry. One in particular is pledging a holy war.'

   Pentecostal Preacher Pledges Holy War Against GOP Senator

   Posted by Steve Benen, The Carpetbagger Report at 7:14 AM on January 29, 2008

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 1:08pm

8. The Star of David is getting a well deserved reputation as the New Swastika.

   Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 11:53am

   Thanks for reminding those who may have doubted that you are a racist anti-semite

   Posted by antisocialist at 10/21/2009 @ 11:59am

   Hear, Hear, anti!

   And unlike anti, I am an anti-Zionist, an athiest and a revolutionay socialist. One, if you can't control your anti-Jewish bigotry, shove the hell off!

   Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 1:18pm

9. Likud hasn't made the Star of David = Nazi swastika. But Likud & Co sure haven't done it any favors.

   Posted by sloper at 10/21/2009 @ 1:35pm

10. It is pretty depressing for the American left that an article that criticizes fascism can be so misunderstood...What a waste of political energy. It would be interesting if the editors of the nation wrote something about this! But maybe it is a tired old story after all.

    Posted by TruthBeTold at 10/21/2009 @ 1:39pm

11. Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 1:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Tell me how racist Israel is different from Nazi Germany again? Oh yes....I forgot, because of The Holocaust. Justifiable Homicide.

    Funny how The Holocaust is exclusively identified as a Jewish tragedy. And this author has the audacity to criticize Lithuanians??

    Maybe you would like to tell us about other "ethnic minorities" who died, and how "socially liberal" Bolsheviks have clean hands when it comes to atrocity.

    How about this - Star of David is rapidly becoming the new Hammer & Sickle of Stalin? Feel better?

    The obvious bullshit of this article is revolting.

    Give me a history of what Stalin did in the Baltics - or aren't you concerned about that?

    "Vilnius, after all, has a Museum of Genocide Victims commemorating the 74,500 Lithuanians who suffered under Moscow's rule without a single exhibit mentioning the 200,000 Jews murdered by their fellow Lithuanians. "These are ultra-nationalists," writes Freedland, "who want to clean up their past, recasting themselves as victims – and forgetting the years in which their forebears were, in fact, the bloodiest perpetrators."

    But see..

    Memorial to Murdered Jews of Lithuania Photos of the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Lithuania at Ponar (Panieri Woods), outside of Vilnus, Lithuania. Taken by Stephen Feinstein, September 23, 2002, Memorial Day for the ending of the Vilna Ghetto and destruction of the Jews. At this ceremony, Lithuanian President Valdas Adamkus spoke, as well as diplomatic representatives and officials from the Lithuanian Jewish Community, which now numbers 4000.

    This is Jewish sympathy propaganda - pure and simple.

    "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."

    Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 2:03pm

12. And as a sequel to The Holocaust on Trial, I fully expect the author to write a companion volume:

    'Israel's Denial of The Goldstone Report - Manipulation and Suppression of Truth in the Zionist State and The Outside World.

    Even I.F. Stone came around to truth, eventually.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 2:46pm

13. Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 2:03pm

    Just because Israel is a racist state fast approaching full-scale apartheid doesn't mean it is the same as Nazi Germany. For all of its crimes, it has not yet committed or tried to commit out and out genocide. Ethnic cleansing, yes, but not genocide.

    When I talk about the Holocaust, I usually prefer citing the figure of 12-14 million killed because it includes the Roma, the Slavs, the Reds, queers, developmentally disabled and others who died in the camps or in various planned and deliberate ways.

    No side comes out of a civil war without blood on their hands, including the Bolsheviks. At least this time, the peasants weren't slaughtered by the landlords like they were in countless peasant rebellions all over the world since the dawn of time.

    And sorry, but Stalin was the antithesis and the gravedigger of the October Revolution, not its "logical outcome." He betrayed Bolshevism, the working class, peasantry and minority nationalities of the Soviet Union, and the international proletariat and oppressed from China to Spain. I have to deal with his legacy because he came from and corrupted the left, but my political forebears were fighting against him and the Soviet bureaucracy from at least 1923 on.

    If you are correct about the Memorial to the Murdered Jews of Lithuania at Ponar, then Guttenplan should correct his article. But it is hard to take such points from you when you follow them with statements such as "This is Jewish sympathy propaganda - pure and simple." Jesus Christ, I'm partially Arab and if I can recognize and despise the anti-Jewish sentiment behind such words, why can't you?

    Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 3:44pm

14. I am strongly reminded of the tactics with which Mitterand, as Pres., destroyed the Communists, by putting them into harmless positions in his cabinet. The tactic appears to me to be moving the Conservative Party to capture whatever fraction of legitimate appeal that the Nationalist Party has mobilized. This move within Britain is, I think, more likely to pull the nationalist bloc further into constructive engagement in the democratic process than to move the Conservatives towards fascism. It is another step in the evolution of the 6-Party system across Europe, as I posted about German politics last week. The main alternative is the American model of two ultra-wide moderate party coalitions.

    Posted by balataf at 10/21/2009 @ 3:45pm

15. Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 3:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Fascism, pronounced /ˈfæʃɪzəm/, comprises a radical and authoritarian nationalist political ideology[1][2][3][4] and a corporatist economic ideology developed in Italy.[5] Fascists believe that nations and/or races are in perpetual conflict whereby only the strong can survive by being healthy, vital, and by asserting themselves in conflict against the weak.[6]

    [See Finacial Crisis and War on Terror (Neoconservatism)]

    So, you tell if me the author is afraid of fascism, or afraid of a different kind of fascism....a fascism that connects the dots and holds those who have held power accountable, and prevents them from insinuating themselves into power again.

    "Ethnic cleansing, yes, but not genocide."

    Bullshit. Just because Israel isn't putting Palestinians in gas chambers doesn't mean they aren't accomplishing a genocide by economic starvation, land theft, constant intimidation, interference with DEMOCRATIC elections, etc. You think people are going to thrive in this environmnet or just give up? And look what they have done to the Bedouin in the Negev Desert.

    Your view of Holocaust isn't the point is it.

    Stalin isn't a Communist - fine. Hitler's fascism worked an economic and nationalistic miracle for Germany till he went too far. Does Hitler mean that fascism is bad per se? You answer has to be no if you believe that your October surprise was ideologically sound at inception but got corrupted along the way.

    Ribbentrop-Molotov. You are aware of the "secret pact." You are also aware of Lithuanian resentment toward Jewish/Communist collaborators in Ribbentrop-Molotov.

    Don't play stupid on "Jewish sympathy." You are being coy and deceptive.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 5:26pm

16. US and Israel - J Street Policy Excerpt

    'Part of this relationship has to include the ability to conduct an honest and open conversation where interests diverge - including the airing of disagreements in public when appropriate and necessary. Israeli pursuit of settlement expansion in violation of existing agreements and acting against U.S. (and we would suggest Israeli) interests is an example of the need for such an honest dialogue between friends.'

    J Street - jstreet.org

    Asking Hillary Clinton to interfere with British Government on behalf of Israel is contrary to British autonomy and interest. Let the people decide. That is what democracy is about.

    Those that worry of Britain being a "less useful ally" have a vested interest themselves, obviously.

    'But even those of us who would like to see less of a poodle-and-master special relationship have sufficient reason to worry when Her Majesty's likely future government sees no harm in cozying up to a man like Kaminski' - quoting author.

    Yeah, right - so ask Hillary to do something about it?? Maybe we can bring democracy to Great Britain Mr. Gutterplan?

    Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 6:24pm

17. Vilna Gaon Jewish State Museum

    Address: Pamenkalnio 12 Vilnius 2001 Lithuania

    Traveler Description:

    Located in two different buildings, this museum has permanent displays depicting Lithuanian Jewish history and culture as well as artifacts from the Holocaust...

    Imagine that - a museum just for Lithuanian Jews, including artifacts from the Holocaust.

    Holocaust Museum (The Green House)

    Traveler Description:

    This is the most powerful and moving place. A visit to the Holocaust Museum, the Genocide Museum and the Jewish Museum on the same afternoon....

    Address: Pamenkalnio 12 Vilnius Lithuania

    'Museum of Genocide Victims commemorating the 74,500 Lithuanians who suffered under Moscow's rule without a single exhibit mentioning the 200,000 Jews murdered by their fellow Lithuanians' quoting author

    Ever been to Lithuania Mr. Gutterplan?

    NICE WORK!

    Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 7:27pm

18. Memo to Mr. Guttenplan:

    Good neighbors don't tell each other who to date.

    Posted by snowball777 at 10/21/2009 @ 7:54pm

19. Posted by OneVote at 10/21/2009 @ 5:26pm

    "a different kind of fascism....a fascism that connects the dots and holds those who have held power accountable, and prevents them from insinuating themselves into power again."

    This wouldn't be fascism, then. Fascism has always been used by the powers that be to crush the working class and its organizations.

    "Bullshit. Just because Israel isn't putting Palestinians in gas chambers doesn't mean they aren't accomplishing a genocide by economic starvation, land theft, constant intimidation, interference with DEMOCRATIC elections, etc. You think people are going to thrive in this environmnet or just give up? And look what they have done to the Bedouin in the Negev Desert."

    Bullshit right back at you. The Turks didn't use gas chambers on the Armenians, but, like the Nazis, they made a concerted effort to wipe out an entire population. Genocide and a growing population don't go together.

    "Stalin isn't a Communist - fine. Hitler's fascism worked an economic and nationalistic miracle for Germany till he went too far. Does Hitler mean that fascism is bad per se? You answer has to be no if you believe that your October surprise was ideologically sound at inception but got corrupted along the way."

    Also crap. Hitler crushed the Social Democrats, the Communists and the labor unions from the beginning, and targeted Jews and others at the start, too. Fascism was never ideologically, philosophically or morally sound.

    "Ribbentrop-Molotov. You are aware of the "secret pact." You are also aware of Lithuanian resentment toward Jewish/Communist collaborators in Ribbentrop-Molotov."

    Yeah, and only the collaborators were targeted, right? Or were the thousands of Orthodox or non-Red Jews murdered collaborators, too?

    Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 10:25pm

20. Posted by cka2nd at 10/21/2009 @ 10:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Good luck with your revolution. Too bad you killed so many along the way. Anybody that hangs on to a delusion as long as you have isn't worth arguing with.

    Funny, I remember huge crowds adoring Hitler - tears of joy and pride.

    BTW - your defense of your fellow Jew in the face of his obvious propaganda is part of the reason why Hitler didn't see any chance for assimilation of Jews into German society. Blood always thicker than water I guess. Never rat out a fellow Jew. Goyim Law is subordinate to loyalty to the Jewish community.

    How does an atheist measure morality? By their own conscience.

    Now you are defending Communist Jew collaborators who were only too willing to appropriate Lithuanian property, function as Stalin's secret police, send Lithuanians to the noose or Siberia, share expropriated plunder in their own little Jewish cabals, on and on.

    Surprise my little Communists. The German had a different plan.

    Lithuanian partisans fought on for their Country years after FDR and Churchill gave Lithuania back to Stalin. They are the heroes, not your commie henchmen.

    Israel targeted "innocents" just like the Nazi. Read The Goldstone Report. They didn't bother to ask whether or not the innocents were Hezbollah or Hamas. They weren't Jews - that was all that mattered to pull the trigger. Same rationale as Nazi used.

    Check out Israel's popularity in world opinion polls today. I believe that you find that Nazi Germany historically enjoyed a higher approval rating.

    You tell your story - I'll tell mine. But I won't be intimidated by your cheap accusations of bigotry in the face of truth. Jews have been using this tactic far too long.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 12:25am

21. 'There are harrowing photos of the corpses of young resistance fighters who were lined up and shot in city squares, their bodies left to rot there by KGB collaborators as a warning to others.

    But there also are heroic stories of how the resistance to Soviet control was started by children -- many of the adults having been spirited away to Siberia -- who refused to be forced into induction into the Red Army and how they built secret underground bunkers in the forests. There's even an excerpt from a KGB training film showing soldiers poking sticks into the ground in an attempt to find the bunker hiding places.

    Out of a population of 2½ million in Lithuania at the start of World War II, it is said that 350,000 people were sent to Siberia by the Communists.'

    Documentary focuses on Lithuanian resistance to Soviet control - Excerpt 01:00 AM EST on Thursday, January 8, 2009

    By Michael Janusonis Journal Arts Writer Documentary - Red Terror

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 01:03am

22. "The difference in living standards between the Soviet Union and its neighbouring states (Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Lithuania) was all too obvious and in order to even out this difference, Moscow made preparations to incorporate those states in the Soviet Empire. The international financial elite gave Stalin a free hand to act. The Baltic states were to have been the Soviet Union's base for its planned attack against Germany". (Carl O. Nordling, "Defence or Imperialism? An Aspect of Stalin's Military and Foreign Policy", Uppsala, 1984.)

    The extremist Jews of course played the key role in this action. A certain part of the Jewish population in the Baltic states had been prepared for the take-over for a long time. In Moscow, the preparations were finished as early as in 1937, when the Kremlin had the first maps of the Baltic states printed with the names "Latvian SSR" and "Estonian SSR". Phrase books in the Estonian, Latvian and Lithuanian languages were printed for the Soviet soldiers in 1940 (just before the occupation).

    The preparations also included plans for the deportation of Baltic citizens. Information about this was immediately spread to the international Zionist organisations. Vladimir Jabotinsky (born in Odessa 1880, died in 1940), a well-known Zionist activist who also founded the terror organisation Warriors of Zion, wrote a letter to one of the leading Zionist functionaries in the United States on the 2nd of November 1939. The letter dealt with the treatment of the Palestinians, whom the Zionists wanted to deport from Palestine. There was one very remarkable sentence in the letter concerning plans for a future deportation of the Palestinians: "If it was possible to transfer the Baltic peoples, it is also possible to move the Palestinian Arabs."

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 01:17am

23. Jabotinsky's letter is preserved in the Israeli National Archives. (The Washington Post, 7th of February 1988.) The letter was quoted and commented upon by the Jewish nationalist David Ben-Gurion in "War Diary" , Vol. Ill, p. 788.

    No ordinary politician had any knowledge whatever of the future Soviet occupation of the Baltic states at this point. Much less could anyone imagine anything as despicable as deporting the original population. A strictly secret decision to deport the anti-Soviet element from the Baltic states was signed by Ivan Serov (who was vice-people's commissary for security) in Moscow on the 11th of October 1939. The Zionist leader Vladimir Jabotinsky not only knew about this planned crime, but also had a positive attitude towards it.'

    By Juri Lina

    Jüri Lina was born in 1949 in occupied Estonia. He was banned from journalistic work in 1975 and then worked as a night watchman until he was forced to emigrate in 1979 after repeated conflicts with the political police, KGB. In 1985, according to documents recently made available, political charges were levelled against Jüri Lina, in his absence, in occupied Estonia. He was accused of high treason in connection with the publication of two books – "Sovjet hotar Sverige" ("The USSR Threatens Sweden") and "Öised päevad" ("Nightly Days"). The KGB regarded him as one of the most anti-communistic writers in Sweden. Jüri Lina is a member of the Swedish Publicists' Association.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 01:21am

24. Know an old Lithuanian who served with Germany in WW2. Never heard him mention the almost immediate liquidation of Jews after the Nazi occupation.

    Concerning later events, I did however hear him say that Eichmann was a Jew & that "they did it to themselves." He didn't deny the Holocaust. This allowed him to position himself as a "liberal."

    Wonder what percentage of the marchers in the "freedom" demonstration in Estonia, including celebration of Waffen SS participation in resisting the Soviets, were octogenarians?

    Posted by Sorelish at 10/22/2009 @ 10:36am

25. Correction: Latvia, not Estonia.

    Posted by Sorelish at 10/22/2009 @ 10:47am

26. I'm thinking we should all rise to a higher level and stop insisting on all these apologies. Paragraphs filled with info on which oppressor tormented which victim in the name of whatever insane political system or religion was prevalent at the time, especially when neither the oppressor nor the oppressee's decendents were involved, makes for poor reading. Apologising is a hallmark of the oversensitive, hand wringing generation in power now, and frankly is a waste of time. We need a new generation of leaders, men and women who have developed the courage NOT to apologise.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/22/2009 @ 11:47am

27. And by the way, any serious distinctions the author makes between "right wing" Fascism and "left wing" communism, or socialism, are ludicrous. Both are dictatorships. Both insist, on pain of death or worse, that your soul belongs to the State, for the good of the State. Both use force, or would if necessary, against "individualists" or "freedom lovers" or other "malcontents" bent on counterrevolution. And both look on free thought as "dangerous." The only difference between Hitlers Fascism and Stalins Communism was their method to maintain this control: Hitler used Race and Stalin used Class. About the only difference between the two systems is that Right wingers make no bones about what they are trying to achieve, while Left Wingers couch their aims in false claims to the foolish and naieve of helping "The People."

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/22/2009 @ 12:00pm

28. Hurrah for ONE VOTE, the Left Fascist anti-Semite.

    He refutes Guttenplan perfectly. He shows a racist lowlife posting as a Nation stalwarts, though the bulk of the posters on these boards do not share his anti-Semitism.

    Similarly, neither the anti-fascist and anti-anti-Semitic Cameron and ECR, are compromised by the Polish and Latvian bigots that have attached themselves like barnacles to their honorable vessel.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/22/2009 @ 12:14pm

29. Additionally, Chip, Italian fascism and German Nazism were both left wing ideologies. Mussolini considered himself a man of the left until his dying day. Hitler was an enemy of communism, but he was also contemptuous of free market capitalism.

    Stalin hated them because their "national" brand of socialism was a direct (and seemingly more successful) competitor to the "international" brand of it he was pushing.

    But as you point out, the end result is always the same. Private and public sector organizations and institutions are all pressed into service molding the individual into another cog of the collective. Modes of thought and behavior are shaped by a "politically enlightened" few who control all aspects of public and private life.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 10/22/2009 @ 12:21pm

30. Additionally, Chip, Italian fascism and German Nazism were both left wing ideologies. Mussolini considered himself a man of the left until his dying day. Hitler was an enemy of communism, but he was also contemptuous of free market capitalism.

    Stalin hated them because their "national" brand of socialism was a direct (and seemingly more successful) competitor to the "international" brand of it he was pushing.

    But as you point out, the end result is always the same. Private and public sector organizations and institutions are all pressed into service molding the individual into another cog of the collective. Modes of thought and behavior are shaped by a "politically enlightened" few who control all aspects of public and private life.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 10/22/2009 @ 12:21pm

31. Wonder what percentage of folks in the Baltics think Obama is controlled by the Zionists via his wholesale adoption of the "Schumer Plan" wherein we give Putin the Soviet's old spheres of influence in exchange for his help on Israel's concerns regarding Iran? These are our NATO allies.

    Interesting to note:

    'During the Soviet annexation and occupation, cadres of communist Jews assumed significant roles in the NKVD and local communist nomenklatura. This was a common trend throughout the Soviet Union. Secular Jews, because of their literacy and prewar attachment to Communist ideals, became the visible image of the communist regime and were considered disloyal fifth columnists. Other Jews, particularly religious Jews and Zionists, were treated harshly by the Soviet-imposed communist government in Lithuania prior to the German invasion. Because of the depradations of the communist regime, some Lithuanians blamed Jews, took spontaneous actions against them, and otherwise participated in German-led campaigns of harassment and mass murder. It is impossible to disaggregate the identity of the victims and the motives of the perpetrators as originating in anti-Semitism, anti-Bolshevism, or some combination of both.

    Wiki

    And, let us not forget the support of Communists and Jews for prewar Polish control of Vilnius 'The Jerusalem of the North,' a bitter territorial dispute. The majority of Jews populating Vilnius came from Eastern Europe, Russia, Belarus, etc.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 12:45pm

32. 'Żeligowski became the new state's de facto military dictator, but after elections he relinquished his powers to the newly-elected parliament.

    In 1922 Central Lithuania's parliament would vote for their state's incorporation into Poland. In 1923, soon after the League of Nations had recognized the existing situation and accepted Polish-Lithuanian border on 15 March, Piłsudski on August 24 1923 would publicly admit that Żeligowski's Mutiny had in fact been a pre-planned operation carried out with his knowledge and support.[6][19]

    Despite Poland's claim to Vilnius, the League of Nations asked Poland to withdraw. Poland declined. In principle, British and French troops could have been asked to enforce the League's decision. France, however, did not wish to antagonize Poland, which she saw as a possible ally in a future war against Germany, and Britain was not prepared to act alone. Thus the Poles were able to keep Vilnius, where a provisional government (Komisja Rządząca Litwy Środkowej, the Central Lithuanian Governing Commission) was formed. Soon parliamentary elections were held and the Wilno Diet (Sejm wileński) voted on February 20, 1922, for incorporation into Poland as the capital of a Wilno Voivodship. The elections were not recognized by the League of Nations.

    The League of Nations Conference of Ambassadors accepted the status quo in 1923, but the Wilno region remained in dispute between Poland and Lithuania (the latter still treated Vilnius as its constitutional capital and the capital of the Vilnius region).

    Wiki - See Żeligowski's Mutiny

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 12:46pm

33. Posted by Pirovano at 10/22/2009 @ 12:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Funny how Jews always leave out inconvenient facts. Jews are biggest bigots in the world - are you kidding?

    Why do Jews get a free pass on bigotry and racism?

    Ask the propaganda machines like Gutterplan.

    Don't discriminate against us, but we are free to discriminate against you....lol......

    You are a anti-goyim.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 12:52pm

34. So we got a League of Nations who refuses to do anything to help Lithuania. France and Britain.....hmmmmm.....sanctimonious lying pussies.........

    Is it any wonder?

    And here we are listening to some crap from a British Jew about whitewash?

    Talk about REVISIONISM!

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 1:02pm

35. Yes, CITIZEN, in fact I even herd once, not sure of it, that Stalin actually coined the phrase "Fascism" to crystallize the distinction.

    And what a great way to describe the folly of those who buy into socialistic policies: "One's modes of thought and behavior molded by the enlightened few."

    Not a bad deal if you happen to be one of the "enlightened few"

    Ha.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/22/2009 @ 1:22pm

36. 'And us, the Jews? An Israeli student finishes high school without ever hearing the name "Genrikh Yagoda," the greatest Jewish murderer of the 20th Century, the GPU's deputy commander and the founder and commander of the NKVD. Yagoda diligently implemented Stalin's collectivization orders and is responsible for the deaths of at least 10 million people. His Jewish deputies established and managed the Gulag system. After Stalin no longer viewed him favorably, Yagoda was demoted and executed, and was replaced as chief hangman in 1936 by Yezhov, the "bloodthirsty dwarf."

    Yezhov was not Jewish but was blessed with an active Jewish wife. In his Book "Stalin: Court of the Red Star", Jewish historian Sebag Montefiore writes that during the darkest period of terror, when the Communist killing machine worked in full force, Stalin was surrounded by beautiful, young Jewish women.

    Stalin's close associates and loyalists included member of the Central Committee and Politburo Lazar Kaganovich. Montefiore characterizes him as the "first Stalinist" and adds that those starving to death in Ukraine, an unparalleled tragedy in the history of human kind aside from the Nazi horrors and Mao's terror in China, did not move Kaganovich.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 2:12pm

37. Many Jews sold their soul to the devil of the Communist revolution and have blood on their hands for eternity. We'll mention just one more: Leonid Reichman, head of the NKVD's special department and the organization's chief interrogator, who was a particularly cruel sadist.

    In 1934, according to published statistics, 38.5 percent of those holding the most senior posts in the Soviet security apparatuses were of Jewish origin. They too, of course, were gradually eliminated in the next purges. In a fascinating lecture at a Tel Aviv University convention this week, Dr. Halfin described the waves of soviet terror as a "carnival of mass murder," "fantasy of purges", and "essianism of evil." Turns out that Jews too, when they become captivated by messianic ideology, can become great murderers, among the greatest known by modern history.

    The Jews active in official communist terror apparatuses (In the Soviet Union and abroad) and who at times led them, did not do this, obviously, as Jews, but rather, as Stalinists, communists, and "Soviet people." Therefore, we find it easy to ignore their origin and "play dumb": What do we have to do with them? But let's not forget them. My own view is different. I find it unacceptable that a person will be considered a member of the Jewish people when he does great things, but not considered part of our people when he does amazingly despicable things.

    Even if we deny it, we cannot escape the Jewishness of "our hangmen," who served the Red Terror with loyalty and dedication from its establishment. After all, others will always remind us of their origin.'

    Stalin's Jews

    We mustn't forget that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish

    Published: 12.21.06, 23:35 / Israel Opinion

    Ynetnews.com - Excerpt

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 2:15pm

38. And what a great way to describe the folly of those who buy into socialistic policies: "One's modes of thought and behavior molded by the enlightened few."

    Not a bad deal if you happen to be one of the "enlightened few"

    Ha.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/22/2009 @ 1:22pm

    I had the songs of children being led in praise of our Dear Leader in my head when I was writing that. That, and what the teleconference with artists in with the National Endowment for the Arts must've sounded like as their handlers tried to mold them into a propaganda arm of the Executive Branch.

    Just a bit disconcerting...

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 10/22/2009 @ 4:07pm

39. And what a great way to describe the folly of those who buy into socialistic policies: "One's modes of thought and behavior molded by the enlightened few."

    Not a bad deal if you happen to be one of the "enlightened few"

    Ha.

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 10/22/2009 @ 1:22pm

    I had the songs of children being led in praise of our Dear Leader in my head when I was writing that. That, and what the teleconference with artists in with the National Endowment for the Arts must've sounded like as their handlers tried to mold them into a propaganda arm of the Executive Branch.

    Just a bit disconcerting...

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 10/22/2009 @ 4:07pm

40. 'The Katyn massacre, also known as the Katyn Forest massacre (Polish: zbrodnia katyńska, 'Katyń crime'), was a mass murder of thousands of Polish military officers, policemen, intellectuals and civilian prisoners of war by Soviet NKVD, based on a proposal from Lavrentiy Beria to execute all members of the Polish Officer Corps. Dated March 5, 1940, this official document was then approved (signed) by the entire Soviet Politburo including Joseph Stalin and Beria.[1][2][3] The number of victims is estimated at about 22,000, the most commonly cited number being 21,768.[4] The victims were murdered in the Katyn Forest in Russia, the Kalinin (Tver) and Kharkov prisons and elsewhere.[5] About 8,000 were officers taken prisoner during the 1939 Soviet invasion of Poland, the rest being Poles arrested for allegedly being "intelligence agents, gendarmes, saboteurs, landowners, factory owners, lawyers, priests, and officials."[4]'

    iki

    Nazi Germany announced the discovery of mass graves in the Katyn Forest in 1943. The revelation led to the end of diplomatic relations between Moscow and the London-based Polish government-in-exile. The Soviet Union continued to deny the massacres until 1990, when it finally acknowledged the perpetration of the massacre by NKVD,[4][11][12] as well as the subsequent cover-up.[13] An investigation by the Prosecutor's General Office of the Russian Federation has confirmed Soviet responsibility for the massacres, yet does not classify this action as a war crime or as an act of genocide. This acknowledgement would have necessitated the prosecution of surviving perpetrators, which is what the Polish government had requested.[4][14]

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 5:17pm

41. In addition the Russian government also does not classify the dead as victims of Stalinist repression, which bars formal posthumous rehabilitation.....

    The Western Allies had an implicit, if unwilling, hand in the cover-up in their endeavour not to antagonise a then-ally, the Soviet Union. The resulting Polish-Soviet crisis was beginning to threaten the vital alliance with the Soviet Union at a time when the Poles' importance to the Allies, essential in the first years of the war, was beginning to fade, due to the entry into the conflict of the military and industrial giants, the Soviet Union and the United States. In retrospective review of records, it is clear that both British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill and US President, Franklin D. Roosevelt were increasingly torn between their commitments to their Polish ally, the uncompromising stance of Sikorski and the demands by Stalin and his diplomats.

    'In private, Churchill agreed that the atrocity was likely carried out by the Soviets. According to the notes taken by Count Raczyński, Churchill admitted on 15 April 1943 during a conversation with General Sikorski: "Alas, the German revelations are probably true. The Bolsheviks can be very cruel."[49] However, at the same time, on 24 April 1943 Churchill assured the Soviets: "We shall certainly oppose vigorously any 'investigation' by the International Red Cross or any other body in any territory under German authority. Such investigation would be a fraud and its conclusions reached by terrorism."[50] Unofficial or classified UK documents concluded that Soviet guilt was a "near certainty", but the alliance with the Soviets was deemed to be more important than moral issues...'

    Wiki

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 5:22pm

42. on Katyn massacre continued...

    'In the United States, a similar line was taken, notwithstanding that two official intelligence reports into the Katyn massacre were produced that contradicted the official position. In 1944 Roosevelt assigned his special emissary to the Balkans, Navy Lieutenant Commander George Earle, to compile information on Katyn, which he did using contacts in Bulgaria and Romania. Earle concluded that the massacre was committed by the Soviet Union. Having consulted with Elmer Davis, the director of the Office of War Information, Roosevelt rejected the conclusion (officially), declared that he was convinced of Nazi Germany's responsibility, and ordered that Earle's report be suppressed. When Earle formally requested permission to publish his findings, the President issued a written order to desist. Earle was reassigned and spent the rest of the war in American Samoa.[1]'

    Wiki

    Jedwabne - about 300 suspected Jew collaborators and their families killed circa July 1941 by gentile townspeople who had shared their town with Jews, but had sold out - Germany invades Soviet Union 1941. Another Ribbentrop-Molotov collaboration gone bad.

    Compare and contrast with Katyn. And the author is worried about Michal Kaminski? When are Poles going to get an apology from Jews, and support for war crime prosecution????????????????

    Nick Griffin arrested by the thought police over "hate crime" defined as questioning The Holocaust? Griffin charged but never spent a day in jail. Just enough cramp down on free speech to chill free speech one would guess.

    The hypocrisy should drown this author.

    And he criticizes 'suspect' Jews that aren't rabid enough such as Jewish Chronicle.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 5:52pm

43. Take note, boys and girls, this ONE VOTE (and there are lots just like him, is one of your own.

    He is a lefty.

    He despised Bush, he opposed the Iraq invasion, he supported the insurgents, and he supports a the domestic programs of the left programs, and its anti-Zionist penchant, just like Guttenplan, Katrina, Nichols, and most of you.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/22/2009 @ 10:47pm

44. Posted by Pirovano at 10/22/2009 @ 10:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Getting carried away there Hugo aren't you?

    1) Being against both wars doesn't mean I support insurgency. I say we shouldn't have created civil sectarian wars to begin with.

    2) I don't support out of control spending - like George Bush did.

    3) I am anti-"right wing Zionism."

    4) I support J Street initiative to change the dialogue, and interject a more balanced view on Israel, and its relationship with the United States.

    5) I support examination of all the facts with regard to Holocaust - particularly when Holocaust is being used to promote support for right wing Zionism.

    6) I do not support Israeli denials of atrocity, nor do I support denials of action/reaction within the Jewish community with regard to the tragedy of world wars.

    I strongly believe that we are not going to have peace till we have honesty.

    There are true Jewish liberals, and then there are "Jewish liberals" who make an exception when it comes to Israel and/or issues relating to Jews - liberal hawks if you will.

    Both Nichols and KVH steer clear of the intrinsic issues presented in this post. Dreyfuss will make passing reference on route to related issues such as our foreign policy toward Iran.

    Journalism and the press, academia, etc. in Israel is far more open to discussion of these issues than in the United States, and likely Britain and Australia. I refer you to the YNET article I posted above. You think you will ever see such an article in the NY Times?

    If you have issue with anything that I have said why don't you address it directly? Could it be you don't have a counter-argument other than pointing the finger and gasping at one who might dare to question accountability?

    Posted by OneVote at 10/22/2009 @ 11:43pm

45. "If" I have issues with anything you've said?

    You ridiculous jerk.

    Of course you want someone with whom to argue your obscenities. But nothing resembling a reasonable debate is possible with a lowlife like you. Only a fool tries.

    The only way to address you is with contumely and spittle.

    I would not piss in your ear if your brains were on fire.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/23/2009 @ 01:43am

46. Posted by Pirovano at 10/22/2009 @ 10:47pm

    "Take note, boys and girls, this ONE VOTE (and there are lots just like him, is one of your own...He is a lefty."

    Bob Avakian is also a "leftist". Stupidity doesn't live on just one end of the political spectrum. If anything, this demonstrates how bad labels like "leftist" are inadequete. Perhaps you should use another.

    "...its anti-Zionist penchant, just like Guttenplan, Katrina, Nichols, and most of you."

    If holding Israel to the same standards of behavior as every other government in the world is "anti-Zionist", then sign me up. Playing the anti-Semite card when it comes to Israel is just another form of American exceptionalism.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/23/2009 @ 07:43am

47. I would not piss in your ear if your brains were on fire.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/23/2009 @ 01:43am

    Clearly, you are afraid.

    As srjenkins points out, just another form of American exceptionalism.

    Problem is Hugo, the rest of the world isn't buying it.

    Your "captive market" controlled by Zionist media and its sympaticos have a stranglehold, but the Internet is changing that.

    Like I stated before, you have more intellectual honesty in Israel than you do in NY. There are many versions of the events of the world wars. Katyn Forrest is a splendid example of how the Allies bent the truth for the war effort. George Bush's weapons of mass destruction and 'we' are fighting "al-quaeda" in Afghanistan are more recent examples.

    Your childish retort rather than intellectual criticisms closes the door to truth, but like the YNET article I posted pointed out, you aren't going to stop the knocking on that door.

    Posted by OneVote at 10/23/2009 @ 09:19am

48. Memo to Mr. Guttenplan: Good neighbors don't tell each other who to date. Posted by snowball777 at 10/21/2009 @ 7:54pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Its not a date, this is something with a little more impact don't you think...international politics, not your neighbour...not the same thing.

    Posted by marilynm at 10/23/2009 @ 3:20pm

49. And another thing: Adolf Eichmann was definitely not a jew. What a ludicrous idea.

    Posted by marilynm at 10/23/2009 @ 3:25pm

50. srjenkins at 10/23/2009 @ 07:43am said:

    >> If holding Israel to the same standards of behavior as every other government in the world is "anti-Zionist", then sign me up. <<

    ONE VOTE's posts, just on this thread, reveal indisputably that he loathes Jews, not Israel, Zionism, capitalism, imperialism, but Jews.

    You think saying so is: >> Playing the anti-Semite card<<

    You moron. That Jew hatred is explicit and undisguised. It is naked for all to see. That you think you can cover it in anti-Zionist hogwash, shows how far lost in lies and lunacy you are. You don't need to be signed up. Your rotten, shameless soul reeks, it is grotesque and repugnant.

    But you are right in one respect. No standard applies to Israel. She is unique. No other country is surrounded by neighbors explicitly pledged to its extermination, a goal with which so many across the globe are in sympathy. That Israel is a leading democracy, modern, progressive and tolerant, while its enemies are the most despicable tyranies, and most thugish and backward fanatics on earth adds to her distinction.

    That those six million Jews are able to surpass the region's 400 million Muslims, not just in war, but in culture, technology and economically, is amazing. Moreover, they have done so for sixty years, fighting the most desperate battles unaided. The US embargoed Israel in 1948; she fought the Six Day War with British tanks and French jets because heavy US weapons were still denied her. Until Carter's Camp David deal in 1978 even US financial aid to Israel was no more than what other countries her size received.

    She is indeed exceptional, surviving across 3000 years, while all the other ancient people, Ur, Babylon, the Egyptians, the ancient Greeks and Romans, etc., are long gone.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/23/2009 @ 3:38pm

51. Posted by Pirovano at 10/23/2009 @ 3:38pm

    Nice try. The problem is this, you stated: "...its anti-Zionist penchant, just like Guttenplan, Katrina, Nichols, and most of you."

    To say this, you are no longer only talking about OneVote. So, you don't get to back track and pretend like you aren't ass out on this - because you moved beyond OneVote to "most of you".

    And when you went to "most of you" you were playing the anti-Semite card, just as I said you were. Now, either say you misspoke or offer up a no argument - because I'm not so big a moron as to buy this one.

    As for the rest of your post, it basically proves my point. It also conveniently avoids the fact that Israel is a nuclear power because of the U.S. and commits crimes against humanity using U.S. weapons, and it does so illegally according to international and U.S. law.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/23/2009 @ 6:33pm

52. srjenkins at 10/23/2009 @ 6:33pm wrote:

    >> The problem is this, you stated: "...its anti-Zionist penchant, just like Guttenplan, Katrina, Nichols, and most of you." To say this, you are no longer only talking about OneVote. So, you don't get to back track and pretend like you aren't ass out on this - because you moved beyond OneVote to "most of you" <<

    My 10:47 post, which you cite, emphasized that One Vote is not just an undisguised Jew hater, he is a committed lefty. He is snug and happy amid the various causes Guttenplan, Katrina, Nichols, etc., espouse. But his (and your) anti-Zionism is a mere mask for the crudest Jew hate. That is revealed on this thread. My point was that the Left is lousy with bigots like you two. Anti-Semites are snug as a bug in the Left's precincts, sanitized as anti-Zionists, yet filthy as hell.

    Moreover, my initial post refuted Guttenplan's charge that David Cameron is tainted and responsible for the slimy vegetation that has attached itself to the bottom of a conservative group in Strasbourg. I suggested that that is like holding Guttenplan, etc., responsible for creeps like you and One Vote.

    That was all clear and unequivocal. Your indignant objection is ridiculous, though characteristic.

    Posted by Pirovano at 10/24/2009 @ 05:06am

53. Posted by Pirovano at 10/24/2009 @ 05:06am

    In short, you're a fuckin' idiot. I'll add you to my growing list of the retardigencia that populates my ignore list.

    Posted by srjenkins at 10/24/2009 @ 09:25am

54. Let me guess Pirovano, your jewish?!?! I always find it amazing that most jews can't face up to what other jews do in their name, your going to have to face the truth if you ever want peace or something similar, why do you constantly fight that?

    Posted by Denise29 at 10/24/2009 @ 10:04am

55. Posted by srjenkins at 10/24/2009 @ 09:25am

    The politically correct term would be mentally challangedigencia if you don't mind. Thought you lefties were all about political correctness.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 10/24/2009 @ 2:51pm