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RedditThe recently released UN Human Rights Council fact-finding mission on the December-January Gaza conflict, released on the eve of Barack Obama's attempt to jump-start comprehensive Israeli-Palestinian negotiations, was but the latest in a series of investigations, most of them by human rights organizations like Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International.
Like its predecessors, the so-called Goldstone report, named after chief investigator Richard Goldstone, is devastating in its critique of Israeli actions: indiscriminate use of firepower; deliberate attacks on civilians and civilian structures, including hospitals, schools, mosques, water and sewage plants, and rescue vehicles; use of white phosphorus munitions in built-up areas; use of human shields; abusive treatment of detainees; imposition of a blockade on Gaza before and after the attack itself--the report concludes that Israel violated international humanitarian law, committed "grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention in respect of wilful killings and wilfully causing great suffering to protected persons," and war crimes, possibly even crimes against humanity. The courageous Israeli journalist Gideon Levy summed it up well in Haaretz: it was "an unrestrained assault on a besieged, totally unprotected civilian population which showed almost no signs of resistance during this operation."
Perhaps most damning of all was the testimony of some thirty Israeli veterans of the operation gathered by the organization Breaking the Silence, published in a booklet in July and cited by the Goldstone report. According to the booklet's introduction, "The majority of the soldiers who spoke with us are still serving in their regular military units and turned to us in deep distress at the moral deterioration of the IDF.… The stories of this publication prove that we are not dealing with the failures of individual soldiers, and attest instead to failures in the application of values primarily on a systemic level." The testimony is chilling: "Fire power was insane"; "if you see any signs of movement at all, you shoot. These, essentially, were the rules of engagement. Shoot if you like"; "Houses were demolished everywhere.… We didn't see a single house that was not hit"; "whole neighborhoods were simply razed because four houses in the area served to launch Qassam rockets"; "You know what? You feel like a child playing around with a magnifying glass, burning up ants. Really. A 20-year-old kid should not be doing such things to people."
Predictably, the Goldstone report was met by a wave of angry denunciations from the Israeli government--which had refused to cooperate with the investigators--and most of the Israeli media. The mainstream media here have downplayed the investigation's significance; news coverage has been sparse, and not one major US daily has seen fit to editorialize on it (unless you count a nasty little screed from the New York Daily News calling the report a "blood libel against Israel"). And US pundits and politicians--including UN ambassador Susan Rice, who called it "unbalanced, one-sided and basically unacceptable"--have been overwhelmingly critical.
But it's not so easy to dismiss these findings. For one thing, the nearly 600-page report is carefully documented and comprehensive, and is based on field visits, public hearings, almost 200 individual interviews, photos, videos, satellite imagery and a review of more than 300 other reports. For another, its head, Goldstone, is one of the most respected and experienced international jurists, having served as a justice on South Africa's Constitutional Court and chief UN prosecutor for the International Criminal Tribunals for the former Yugoslavia and Rwanda.
And then there are Goldstone's personal connections: he's Jewish and, according to his daughter, herself an ardent Zionist who lived in Israel for six months, he's "a Zionist and loves Israel." Indeed, she said of her father, who serves on the Board of Governors of Hebrew University, "I know that if he thought what he did would not somehow be for the sake of peace for everyone in Israel or that it would have hindered such efforts, he would not have accepted the job."
Before taking it on, Goldstone insisted on expanding the mission's mandate so that it cover Palestinian acts; far from being one-sided, the report concluded that Hamas rocket and mortar barrages on southern Israel were "indiscriminate attacks upon the civilian population," acts that "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity." International law expert (and Nation editorial board member) Richard Falk has concluded that "no credible international commission could reach any set of conclusions other than those reached by the Goldstone Report on the central allegations."
Falk points out that there are good reasons for Israel's panicked reaction. In addition to the report's balance and the credibility of its chief, Goldstone recommends that Israel and Hamas carry out serious, comprehensive investigations of their own into the alleged crimes, and that if they do not do so within six months, the UN Security Council should consider referring the matter to the International Criminal Court in The Hague. That's highly unlikely, given US veto power in the Security Council. But the report will further diminish Israel's reputation and will probably strengthen the growing international boycott, divestment and sanctions movement. In his column on the report, Gideon Levy darkly concludes, "On the eve of the Jewish New Year, Israel, deservedly, is becoming an outcast and detested country. We must not forget it for a minute."
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Is Mr. Goldstone, via the UN, using reverse psychology to tell Israel to start its attacks on Iran? You know, put Israel in a corner where we know what one must do!
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 4:28pm
It is evident now that israel has committed a grave crime against the humanity of the occupied palestinian people.and as usual the american jews who have become the willing executioners of this deadly terrorist regime are trying to conceal this horrendous and tragic event.
Posted by excalibur999 at 09/23/2009 @ 4:46pm
Posted by excalibur999 at 09/23/2009 @ 4:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
If you will tell us where you live we will see if someone can target your home with rockets for 7yrs. ( in which time you will be allowed no response) them we will check back to get your reaction!?!?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 4:50pm
Let's hear how this one gets justified.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/23/2009 @ 5:00pm
Shouldn't be much longer now until all the anti-semites make their appearance and begin howling at the moon along with all the other haters!
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 5:13pm
Let's hear how this one gets justified.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/23/2009 @ 5:00pm
Can't be that hard for these 'true believers' to justify some political shinanigans across the ocean given how many are prone to much bigger distortions of reality, e.g., to believing Obama is a super villain who's magic negro thing is to fake it as Christ. A being far far more than human capable of tricking masses and waging battle with the Almighty, finally being overthrown in the Second Coming...
This all by the way has long had the flip side, where they accuse supporters of Obama's policies of idol worship, he's a celebrity, etc.
Of his supporters viewing him as a Messiah. This started with -- remember this -- 'The McCain campaign is up with a new attack ad about Obama's trip abroad that refers to him as the "biggest celebrity in the world"'... images of the cheering throngs from Obama's recent overseas trips juxtaposed to pictures of Spears and Hilton. "He's the biggest celebrity in the world," an ominous female voice intones. "But is he ready to lead?"
I'd almost forgotten that smelly chapter. The **Cult** of personality...
A lot of this began before the racism accusations. And before he was rumored to be Muslim. Before he was the redistributionist in Chief and would turn the country pinko communistic... but it never went away. Resurfacing over and over in different ways. Magic Negros'll do that.
The scrambled eggs of neocon projection -- Obama as antichristish in the dangerous human anarchist slant: 'Obama as a man with past ties to dangerous American radicals'
Let's guess -- somehow Israel's crimes against humanity are... are not. And to the extent they are or are misconstrued it has something to do with Obama and his supporter's.
Posted by winyahn at 09/23/2009 @ 5:52pm
International law expert (and Nation editorial board member) Richard Falk has concluded that "no credible international commission could reach any set of conclusions other than those reached by the Goldstone Report on the central allegations."
My biggest issue with this whole article. If you want me to take the story seriously and the Nation seriously, don't be interviewing yourself for your articles. WEAK!
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 6:09pm
big pasture
The zionists are land thieves and occupiers and the occupied as stipulated by UN charter have the right to use all means necessary to liberate themsleves.the anti semitism argument does not work anymore.it is nothing but an execuse to continue to silence the critics of jewish domestic political colonialism in the USA and a tool to continue the ongoing genocide of the palestinian people.
Posted by excalibur999 at 09/23/2009 @ 6:16pm
My biggest issue with this whole article. If you want me to take the story seriously and the Nation seriously, don't be interviewing yourself for your articles. WEAK!
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 6:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Hey Extra - give THE NATION some credit for publishing the story. They are going to get a ration of hateful shit from the Rabid Zionist crowd for daring to tell the truth.
THANK YOU!
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:34pm
Shouldn't be much longer now until all the anti-semites make their appearance and begin howling at the moon along with all the other haters!
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 5:13pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Shit for Brains.
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:35pm
If you will tell us where you live we will see if someone can target your home with rockets for 7yrs. ( in which time you will be allowed no response) them we will check back to get your reaction!?!?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 4:50pm | ignore this person | warn this person
How about we move some hairy assed commando types into your house and let you watch while they eat your food, terrorize your children, and screw your wife.
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:40pm
Hey Extra - give THE NATION some credit for publishing the story. They are going to get a ration of hateful shit from the Rabid Zionist crowd for daring to tell the truth.
THANK YOU!
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:34pm
It is a powerful story that needs to be told, I just wish the Nation would not weaken the stories credibility and Nation's by using their own staff as sources.
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 7:20pm
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 7:20pm | ignore this person | warn this person
You must consider the context.
Official says US will prevent Goldstone report from reaching The Hague
Published: 09.23.09, 23:49 / Israel News
'A US official met with Jewish leaders in the US and said the Obama administration would employ its power with the UN Security Council and prevent the Goldstone report on the Gaza war from reaching UN institutions and the International Court of Justice at The Hague.
He said the US had the right to veto such procedures, and that the report would only be analyzed by the Human Rights Council in Geneva. (Yitzhak Benhorin, Washington)'
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 7:25pm
If you will tell us where you live we will see if someone can target your home with rockets for 7yrs. ( in which time you will be allowed no response) them we will check back to get your reaction!?!?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 4:50pm
Only if we can relocate you from your home to a refuge camp for 10 years then once you have a nice farm and are semi-economically we decide we want that land as well so we bulldoze your home, shoot your kids for throwing rocks at tanks and force you to relocate again. If you fight back in anyway you are jailed or killed. Your only option for resistance is to resort to bombings and "terrorism", otherwise your plight would be completely ignored.
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 7:33pm
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 7:25pm
I do understand the context and it importance. Was there really no one else for with foreign policy/law experience for the Nation to interview, except one of their own staff?
OneVote, it is because this is a story of importance that I am irked at the subpar standard of reporting that the nation used, which I feel weakens the integrity of the story. It would have been just as powerful if they had left out the interview with their own staff.
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 7:38pm
'The report, released September 15, caused a huge initial international stir, not only because of its findings, the bulk of which focused on Israel, but also because of its ultimate recommendation: that the United Nations Security Council, which has binding power under international law, require Israel and Hamas, which controls Gaza, to conduct their own respective independent investigations of the evidence of human rights violations cited in the report. If they do not do so within six months, the report urged the Security Council to refer their cases to the International Criminal Court in the Hague.
But in the days following the release of Goldstone's report, it became clear that in the arm-wrestling contest between international rights organizations and the established Israeli-American diplomatic bond, the latter wins easily.
The 574-page report, commissioned by the U.N.'s Human Rights Council, was overseen by Judge Richard Goldstone, a widely respected South African jurist who served on his country's highest court and went on to prosecute war crimes in Rwanda and the former Yugoslavia. The report scrutinized the events of last winter's Operation Cast Lead, in which Israel bombarded Gaza from the air and ground in response to the continued firing of rockets by Hamas militants at Israeli towns.
Estimates of Palestinian dead from the campaign range from 1,166 to 1,417. The number of non-combatants among them remains in sharp dispute, running from 300 (Israel's) to 1,000 (Hamas). An estimated 4,000 Palestinian homes were destroyed. Thirteen Israelis were killed during the conflict.'
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 7:46pm
Israel refused to cooperate in the investigation, citing the council's one-sided condemnation of it in the resolution commissioning the report. It blocked Goldstone from entering Israel to pursue his probe, though Goldstone had secured the backing of the council's president to expand his mandate to scrutinize Hamas, as well. The Goldstone Commission was thus unable to examine Israeli homes hit by the rockets. And it could not interview Israelis injured by them, but for a few who traveled to Geneva at the Human Rights Council's expense to testify.'
A Quick Burial For Goldstone's Report on Gaza By Nathan Guttman Published September 23, 2009, issue of October 02, 2009. Excerpt
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 7:47pm
Israel committed war crimes on a civilian population using U.S. weapons in violation of U.S. and international law.
I didn't need this report to tell me that. It is also no surprise that acknowledging this fact will invariably result in some claim of antisemitism by the same people that chant, "USA! USA!" or "My country right or wrong."
Moral authority, just like patriotism, means assuming responsibility for your actions. The US, and by extension the US's close ally Israel, isn't interested in taking responsibility for their crimes, and realistically, there is no one that can force them to do so.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/23/2009 @ 7:56pm
OneVote, it is because this is a story of importance that I am irked at the subpar standard of reporting that the nation used, which I feel weakens the integrity of the story. It would have been just as powerful if they had left out the interview with their own staff.
Posted by Extraneous at 09/23/2009 @ 7:38pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Okay. You are right of course as to journalistic standard.
And, The Nation should not fear to "call around" for a "second opinion," in an ideal world, but the context of reporting on the Goldstone Report is not search for truth, but the burying of it, by obviously greater forces of power and money than The Nation can possibly muster.
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:00pm
The US, and by extension the US's close ally Israel, isn't interested in taking responsibility for their crimes, and realistically, there is no one that can force them to do so.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/23/2009 @ 7:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And - this realization on the heels of Mr. President's address to the UN today.
What a f__king mockery.
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:03pm
"Any comparison of Israel's fight on terror with recent conflicts in Kosovo, Iraq, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc. immediately shows that Israel holds itself to the highest ethical standard."
Shimon Peres
Peres: Goldstone Report makes mockery of history
Roni Sofer Published: 09.16.09, 14:40 / Israel News
Catch that folks? Some ally. Our best friend?
Wonder how our troops and NATO troops feel about this assertion?
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:41pm
Israel committed war crimes on a civilian population using U.S. weapons in violation of U.S. and international law.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/23/2009 @ 7:56pm
And what did Hezbollah and Hamas committed by initiating hostility on Israel's respective northern and southern borders? Launching ice cream cones and confettis?
Somehow, I can get all teary-eyed for the baddies getting counter-punched with "U.S. weapons" that ain't ice cream cones.....civilians? Hamas & Hezbollah don't care for their civilians, the more dead the better is what they WANT!
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 8:45pm
can't
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 8:46pm
hostility on Israel's respective northern and southern borders? Launching ice cream cones and confettis?
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 8:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
So why do you suppose Goldstone was prevented from examination of all that Hamas rocket damage and all those injuries in Israel?
Maybe because it was 99% bullshit?
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:52pm
Maybe because it was 99% bullshit?
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:52pm
Maybe, maybe not........I don't really care. Both sides are full of shit.....but my sympathy will lie with the Israelis, a tiny country surrounded by dumb hostiles.....until such time their right to exist is unambiguously recognized by the dumb asses....who temselves, have been played for 60+ years now by smart asses not bordering Israel.
The West Bank and Gaza Palestinians are like American blacks, played for suckers and thinking their destiny is to be perpetual victims.....It's a Wonderful Life!
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 9:32pm
Shit for Brains.=Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:35pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Right on schedule with a appropriate surname!
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 10:25pm
Maybe, maybe not........I don't really care.
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 9:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Let us just say then you are predisposed to support Israel, whether right or wrong.
Thanks for the honest answer Hap.
And you are entitled to your "predispositions."
Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 10:36pm
Wonder what the so-called palestinian arabs world would look like if all the billions upon billions the world has given them were not spent on rockets, bomb munitions, small arms weapons and ammunition and decades of HATE and Loathing? Would there be great schools of higer learning, hospitals, clinic, international businesses?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 10:46pm
I've read Goldstone's letter on why he was filing this report and along with the disinformation contained in Carey's summary, just presents the usual one sided anti-Israel conclusions
Take the phosphorous example. Israel did not use phosphorous weapons. They used White Phosphorous flares to light up areas where Hamas was firing from during the night. This helped Israel to better target Hamas rather than indiscriminate firing like the anti-semites charge.
Nor should it be surprising that there are some members of IDF who have negative views of the conflict. Since all Israelis are required to serve in the military, there are always some leftists in the mix who will go against their own national interests and the survival of Israel itself. We have the same thing here, it's just that most of them never serve in the military since there's no longer a draft.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
That small country of Israel is proving to be the parasite eating the US to death.
As long as Israel calls the shots on US policy, and the US places Israel's wishes above US national concerns, we have a recipe for long-term disaster in both countries.
Posted by sloper at 09/23/2009 @ 11:20pm
Israel did not use phosphorous weapons.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
maybe not, but the u.s. certainly did.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2009 @ 11:32pm
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 8:45pm
If you can't see the difference between indiscriminate firing of rockets and conducting a military campaign in a space where civilians are hemmed in by massive concrete walls, how am I to explain it to you?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 10:46pm
Hard to run those kinds of social services when the Israelis block the necessary material. You can't have a hospital without drugs to administer, for instance.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
Sure they did. The report talks about this issue on paragraphs 883-897. You can find numerous news reports that also provide evidence. What you have that supports this view? I suspect, as usual, nothing. Do you ever ponder the moral implications of telling bald faced lies? Or how do you reconcile this kind of erroneous assertions with being a "man of God"?
Posted by srjenkins at 09/23/2009 @ 11:53pm
Israel did not use phosphorous weapons.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
maybe not, but the u.s. certainly did.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2009 @ 11:32pm
When did we use weapons in Gaza?
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 12:28am
Would there be great schools of higer learning, hospitals, clinic, international businesses?
Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 10:46pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Didn't stop the US from going after Saddam did it. Sanctions that starve children, cutting off medicines, supplies, etc. were designed to impoverish a people. Saddam built schools, hospitals, clinics, museums, libraries, etc.
Anything of value within Israel's grasp they will grab. And, their strategy is to impoverish, not uplift.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:57am
Israel asks EU envoys to renounce Goldstone Report
Foreign Ministry Director-General Yossi Gal meets with 26 European ambassadors, tell them UN committee's conclusions on Israeli operation in Gaza 'is a source of concern for democratic countries fighting terror'
Ynet Published: 09.22.09, 21:18 / Israel News
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:08am
The Foreign Ministry director-general also called on EU countries to clearly express their reservations over the report in any possible way. The report, he said, is not legal but rather "a one-dimensional, political propaganda poster biased against Israel."
cite to above
This is how these bastards operate.
"a source of concern for democratic countries fighting terror"....
sounds like Dick Cheney, and an obvious threat that Israel will wag the dog (US) against any European country that doesn't comply.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:13am
there are always some leftists in the mix who will go against their own national interests and the survival of Israel itself. We have the same thing here, it's just that most of them never serve in the military since there's no longer a draft.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
In other words, you would obey orders and kill innocents (including a women and children) without a second thought.
Get help Larry.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:21am
From The Times January 15, 2009
Spent shells prove Israeli use of white phosphorus, Gaza doctors say - Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/ world/middle_east/article5519433.ece
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:34am
Israel did not use phosphorous weapons. Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm maybe not, but the u.s. certainly did. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2009 @ 11:32pm When did we use weapons in Gaza? Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 12:28am
in fallujah, larry.
c'mon, don't play dumb.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 01:44am
In Fallujah?
That's different. We thought Iraq had chemical weapons.
And chemical weapons are so evil and destructive we had to use our own chemical weapons on them.
Posted by koroviev at 09/24/2009 @ 05:01am
Naturally we get the "Israel- Right or Wrong!" crowd of HAPP, Larry, RIO. The IDF could NUKE Gaza and kill 50,000...and they'd say "Well? A Palestinian terrorist threw a grenade at an Israeli convoy, what did you expect them to do? Nothing!??!?!?!"
Just as there are a few "excalibur" types on the other end of the spectrum.
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 07:13am
From The Times January 15, 2009
Spent shells prove Israeli use of white phosphorus, Gaza doctors say - Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:34am
The definitive proof would be photographs of actual burn victims of white phosporous attacks. WP, or "willy pete", artillery shells have a variety of uses. For one, they are used to create a smoke screen to either mask your own forces movements or obscure enemy positions so they may not fire accurately.
Another use is the destruction of fuel points or ammunition storage areas. Contrary to what you see in movies, regular old high explosive doesn't do the best job of igniting enemy fuel and munitions stores. White phosphorous does. One such attack is called "shake and bake", in which fuel trucks or bowsers are first riddled with shrapnel from HE shells. The fuel leaking out is then ignited by white phosporous. No, you don't want to be around when that happens.
I seriously doubt the Israelis would use WP to attack civilian, non-combatant targets. It may appear so, as Hamas likes to operate close to civilians for this purpose. For one, WP isn't cheap to make into artillery shells. For another, it just isn't necessary for a number of reasons. Killing noncombatants without provocation is a bad public relations move. Using a weapon that is considered inhumane AND easily proven by independent sources is, well, stupid.
It wouldn't suprise me if IDF artillery as actually forbidden to use WP in counter-battery fire against terror targets.
Bottom line, the international outcry over WP shells would FAR outweigh any tactical advantage to using such shells against military targets, and certainly against civilian, noncombatants. Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
From The Times January 15, 2009
Spent shells prove Israeli use of white phosphorus, Gaza doctors say - Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:34am
The definitive proof would be photographs of actual burn victims of white phosporous attacks. WP, or "willy pete", artillery shells have a variety of uses. For one, they are used to create a smoke screen to either mask your own forces movements or obscure enemy positions so they may not fire accurately.
Another use is the destruction of fuel points or ammunition storage areas. Contrary to what you see in movies, regular old high explosive doesn't do the best job of igniting enemy fuel and munitions stores. White phosphorous does. One such attack is called "shake and bake", in which fuel trucks or bowsers are first riddled with shrapnel from HE shells. The fuel leaking out is then ignited by white phosporous. No, you don't want to be around when that happens.
I seriously doubt the Israelis would use WP to attack civilian, non-combatant targets. It may appear so, as Hamas likes to operate close to civilians for this purpose. For one, WP isn't cheap to make into artillery shells. For another, it just isn't necessary for a number of reasons. Killing noncombatants without provocation is a bad public relations move. Using a weapon that is considered inhumane AND easily proven by independent sources is, well, stupid.
It wouldn't suprise me if IDF artillery as actually forbidden to use WP in counter-battery fire against terror targets.
Bottom line, the international outcry over WP shells would FAR outweigh any tactical advantage to using such shells against military targets, and certainly against civilian, noncombatants. Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
From The Times January 15, 2009
Spent shells prove Israeli use of white phosphorus, Gaza doctors say - Sheera Frenkel in Jerusalem
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 01:34am
The definitive proof would be photographs of actual burn victims of white phosporous attacks. WP, or "willy pete", artillery shells have a variety of uses. For one, they are used to create a smoke screen to either mask your own forces movements or obscure enemy positions so they may not fire accurately.
Another use is the destruction of fuel points or ammunition storage areas. Contrary to what you see in movies, regular old high explosive doesn't do the best job of igniting enemy fuel and munitions stores. White phosphorous does. One such attack is called "shake and bake", in which fuel trucks or bowsers are first riddled with shrapnel from HE shells. The fuel leaking out is then ignited by white phosporous. No, you don't want to be around when that happens.
I seriously doubt the Israelis would use WP to attack civilian, non-combatant targets. It may appear so, as Hamas likes to operate close to civilians for this purpose. For one, WP isn't cheap to make into artillery shells. For another, it just isn't necessary for a number of reasons. Killing noncombatants without provocation is a bad public relations move. Using a weapon that is considered inhumane AND easily proven by independent sources is, well, stupid.
It wouldn't suprise me if IDF artillery as actually forbidden to use WP in counter-battery fire against terror targets.
Bottom line, the international outcry over WP shells would FAR outweigh any tactical advantage to using such shells against military targets, and certainly against civilian, noncombatants. Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
I believe the report mentioned atrocities and war crimes on BOTH sides.
Israel behaves no differently than the US. we lack any kind of moral high ground. both of OUR wars were started and conducted for political reasons.
I don't believe for a moment that that god damn Bush didn't know the WMD narrative was a lie.
Posted by emile duBois at 09/24/2009 @ 08:09am
Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
no, the don't give a fuck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:18am
Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
no, the don't give a fuck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:18am
Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am
no, the don't give a fuck.
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:18am
y
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:19am
y
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:19am
y
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:19am
Posted by frosty zoom at 09/24/2009 @ 08:19am
OMG...it's catching!!!
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 09:05am
This is really not relevant from a historical perspective. In a few years or a few decades somebody is going to use a nuke or chemical or radiological weapons that will turn the entire area into a "quiet zone."
So what if the Goldstone Report identifies some soldier as a "Breaker Morant" or some general as an Arthur Harris? By the end of the century nobody will care about the place except archaeologists in hazmat suits. These arguments over the use of white phosphorus smoke shells will be as pointless as arguments over tactics at Agincourt or Borodino.
Discuss health care: that's something that is really going to make a difference in our lives.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 09:36am
Bottom line, the international outcry over WP shells would FAR outweigh any tactical advantage to using such shells against military targets, and certainly against civilian, noncombatants. Or...you could choose to believe the Israelis are that dumb.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 07:46am | ignore this person | warn this person
Oh yes...Israel conducts their "war" according to the highest "ethical standards." That is why IDF is saying that they don't.
Now, you want to pretend that WP is just used for "illumination" purposes. Let me posit "the theory" that WP was used indiscriminately to discourage nighttime civilian movement.
If Israel has nothing to hide, why are they hiding?
And, as Frosty so eloquently states:
they don't give a f__k what world opinion is.
Israel operates outside parameters and constraints of world opinion, hiding behind the skirts of US veto and military power.
How many UN resolutions against Israel? How many US vetoes?
The world is just filled with anti-semites?
Really?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 09:38am
Discuss health care: that's something that is really going to make a difference in our lives.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 09:36am | ignore this person | warn this person
So, there is no relationship between domestic social spending and military and foreign spending????????????????????????????
How many trillions have we pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Let me give you a clue - defense of this monster is our foreign policy, and we fork over trillions to defend the Jewish State without question, and yet we must have a "deficit neutral" healthcare program here at home?
Sorry Mistral. The issues are very much interrelated.
One of Israel's sales pitches to the American public is that it is wise to fork over trillions for her defense, because she is a paragon of virtue, a shinning example of democracy and freedom that must be preserved. The truth is revealed in part in the Goldstone report. This is why Israel is shutting it down.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 09:51am
OMG...it's catching!!!
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 09:05am
Webeditoritis?!
routinely fatal...
poor frosty....
Posted by Benchrest at 09/24/2009 @ 09:53am
Posted by Happy at 09/23/2009 @ 8:45pm
If you can't see the difference between indiscriminate firing of rockets and conducting a military campaign in a space where civilians are hemmed in by massive concrete walls, how am I to explain it to you?
Posted by srjenkins at 09/23/2009 @ 11:53pm
If I'm not mistaken, even with "a military campaign in a space where civilians are hemmed in by massive concrete walls", the number of Gazan `civilian' deaths (some were Hamas fighters in civilian clothes & don't forget the feigned deaths for French TV) weren't more than about 1,000!
You don't think American munitions in the hands of truly determined `mass-killing' IDF can do better than `just' 1,000?
It's just too bad Hamas took some wild swings (rockets) ended up with broken ribs....know what I mean?
Posted by Happy at 09/24/2009 @ 10:16am
How many trillions have we pissed away in Iraq and Afghanistan?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 09:51am
That's a good point: the contrast between Afghanistan and Israel. Israel is a postage stamp of land that by the end of the century will most likely, along with the surrounding area, be empty of human life. Properly handling the situation in Afghanistan should be the President's priority.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 10:57am
Israel operates outside parameters and constraints of world opinion, hiding behind the skirts of US veto and military power.
How many UN resolutions against Israel? How many US vetoes?
The world is just filled with anti-semites?
Really?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 09:38am
Israel could lay down their weapons and hand out lollypops and anti-semite, jihadist supporters like yourself would still complain and call them the aggressors.
<"With the establishment of the State of Israel, the entire Muslim nation was lost because Israel is a cancer that spread in the body of the Islamic nation; because the Jews are a virus similar to AIDS, from which the entire world is suffering."
Sheikh Ibrahim Mudayris PA TV sermon, May 13, 2005
Hamas would "definitely not" be prepared for coexistence with Israel should the IDF retreat to its 1967 borders. "It can be a temporary solution, for a maximum of 5 to 10 years. But in the end Palestine must return to become Muslim, and in the long term Israel will disappear from the face of the earth."
Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 2005>
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 10:59am
Properly handling the situation in Afghanistan should be the President's priority.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 10:57am | ignore this person | warn this person
The "end game" is about preservation of Israeli nuclear hegemony.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:15am
Israel could lay down their weapons and hand out lollypops and anti-semite, jihadist supporters like yourself would still complain and call them the aggressors.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 10:59am
Jihad in Arabic means "struggle."
You are a jihadist for your own satanical vision for Israel which you couch behind distortions and biblical prohecy.
My struggle is to get the monkey off our back that is killing the United States.
Once the monkey is off our back, and Israel stands on its own, we will have peace and compromise.
For you to denigrate Islamic jihad is really preposterous when you are so filled with jingoism and anti-Christ religious fervor.
Be gone Satan.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:27am
The "end game" is about preservation of Israeli nuclear hegemony.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:15am
What difference does "hegemony" make? Deterrence isn't relevant. It's only useful if your enemy isn't prepared to take the millions of casualties a city-busting war would bring. If Israel has nukes and uses them in a counterattack, that will just make the rubble bounce one more time.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 11:28am
If Israel has nukes and uses them in a counterattack, that will just make the rubble bounce one more time.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 11:28am | ignore this person | warn this person
Ah....make sure that Iran has NO NUKES.
Make sure that Paki Nukes don't fall into the "wrong" hands.
NO rubble in Israel. Lots of rubble in Iran.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 09:36am
Mistral should remind us...not ALL of the Right are "Israel-All Right, All The Time" types like Larry.
There IS the "Pat Buchanan/Ron Paul" contingent who are isolationist...care nothing for Israel...or are even hostile to it themselves.
Swamped by the neo-cons and Religious Right...but they DO exist.
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am | ignore this person | warn this person
How would you classify yourself Mask?
Oh...it is just such a complex situation that never seems to have a resolution....what will we do?
Bullshit.
You are a staunch supporter who tries to hide behind a veil of moderation.
I call you out.
We've been playing "pussyfoot" with this issue far too long.
Time for action.
Your Messiah is the front man for Zionism and you know it.
Tell us who Penny Pritzker and David Axelrod are.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:38am
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 09:36am
In the long run, everyone is dead. If we use the same logic that you apply to the Middle East to healthcare, they both are pointless topics - which suggests there is a problem in your logic.
Posted by Happy at 09/24/2009 @ 10:16am
I look forward to the day when you advocate for laser guided bombs targeting police stations and infrastructure in your neighborhood. It's no big deal right? Knocking out electricity and water in Dallas for an extended time and killing a mere 1,000 civilians is the appropriate response when parts of the population commit an act of murder? I think you have stumbled upon a new police tactic we should implement in our own borders.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 10:59am
As usual, you mix up rhetoric with reality. Also interesting that you don't turn this critical eye on people like John Hagee (nuclear attack on Iran), Pat Robertson (assassinate Chavez), etc. The difference between these Christian preachers and the Muslims preachers you like to quote - is that you agree with the Christian nuts. What does that say about you, Reverend? Ever reflect on that in a moment of prayer?
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 11:40am
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am
The "Pat Buchanan/Ron Paul" contingent are a side show in the Republican Party. The only reason why they consider themselves part of the party at all is because its the only game in town. I mean, who wants to look as ridiculous as Bob Barr?
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 11:49am
Jihad in Arabic means "struggle."
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:27am
Nuclear, in English, means merely "pertaining to the nucleus." And yet somehow, the word nuclear gives me a frisson of concern.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 11:55am
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 11:55am | ignore this person | warn this person
And, when you think of 'terrorists,' whom do you think of?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:03pm
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am | ignore this person | warn this person
How would you classify yourself Mask?
Oh...it is just such a complex situation that never seems to have a resolution....what will we do?
Bullshit.
You are a staunch supporter who tries to hide behind a veil of moderation.
I call you out.
We've been playing "pussyfoot" with this issue far too long.
Time for action.
Your Messiah is the front man for Zionism and you know it.
Tell us who Penny Pritzker and David Axelrod are.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:38am | ignore this person | warn this person
--let Mask's mealy-mouthing begin...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 12:09pm
Nor should it be surprising that there are some members of IDF who have negative views of the conflict. Since all Israelis are required to serve in the military, there are always some leftists in the mix who will go against their own national interests and the survival of Israel itself. We have the same thing here, it's just that most of them never serve in the military since there's no longer a draft.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm
Weird how you jump straight to calling anyone who disagrees with your perspective and anti-semite. You guys are using the liberal tactics you profess to hate. instead of substantive debate you would rather call people racists. Isn't this what you guys have been complaining about for the last 2 weeks? Oh well, unveiled hypocrisy I guess.
Goldstone is a Jew and a Zionist so somehow I don't think he is an anti-semite. He has given speeches in Jerusalem. Yet just because he disagrees with your conclusion you automatically label him an anti-semite. Does that mean I can label you a racist anytime you disagree with my conclusions? You never bothered answering SRJs point about the white phosphorous weapons. On top of that you should read the actual report before bothering to judge it's contents. The things they did in there were not against Hamas. They were looking to kill as many Palestinians as possible whether they were Hamas or not.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 12:19pm
And, when you think of 'terrorists,' whom do you think of?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:03pm
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter:
It all depends. People who live in Bombay think of one sort of person, people who live in New York think of another, people who live in Sderot think of a third kind, people who live in Entebbe think of a fourth, and people flying commercial aircraft think of yet another.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 12:21pm
Also did you ever stop to think that maybe the people in the military were telling the truth about the actions they committed and felt they were morally wrong. After all do you see nothing morally wrong in purposefully killing innocent people? No instead you make pre-judgements about them based on bigoted assertions which means your opinion on the matter is a waste of time from the start. You should be better than this. You are playing a kool-aid drinking brainwashed loon instead of an intelligent free thinking person.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 12:24pm
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:38am | ignore this person | warn this person
--let Mask's mealy-mouthing begin...
Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 12:09pm | ignore this person | warn this person
And do note Mask's phraseology:
"There IS the "Pat Buchanan/Ron Paul" contingent who are isolationist...care nothing for Israel...or are even hostile to it themselves.
Swamped by the neo-cons and Religious Right...but they DO exist.
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 11:32am | ignore this person | warn this person"
So, Isolationists are closet anti-semitic???????????????????????
Just frickin pathetic.
What the hell does our Constitution say about defending Israel with our blood and treasure????????? we've got GD defense of Israel written into our foreign policy doctrines?
Our founding fathers sure had a different idea.
Mask isn't a patriot, he is a dual-agent.
Maybe Pat Buchanan and Ron Paul actually care more about the fate of the United States and its standing in the world than they care about Israel? Maybe they don't want to stand beside the world's pariah? This it TOTALLY legitimate.
The Israeli Knesset ensures Arabs never will control its political institutions.
We should do the same.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:25pm
One person's terrorist is another person's freedom fighter:
It all depends. People who live in Bombay think of one sort of person, people who live in New York think of another, people who live in Sderot think of a third kind, people who live in Entebbe think of a fourth, and people flying commercial aircraft think of yet another.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 12:21pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Exactly!! Gold Star Awarded!
Same goes for Jihad.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:27pm
Exactly!! Gold Star Awarded!
Same goes for Jihad.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:27pm
Is sarcasm unknown on your planet? All those examples are the exact same perpetrators of terrorism. Should I add cruise ships and the Jewish cultural center in Buenos Aires?
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 12:37pm
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 11:38am
How about we find "some" middle ground between-
"Israel is God's Mandate and her borders were established by the Lord and are inviolatable...whatever it wants to do and do TO the Palestinians, we must support or we hate Jews!"
and
"Israel is Nazi Germany backed by fascist Jews in America and if they don't do anything the Palestinians want, we embargo them and then 'ratchet it up' from there if that doesn't work"???
COULD there be some "moderate" position in there somewhere? Like ....diplomacy....support for moderate Israeli and Palestinian elements...high-visibility efforts to resolve conflicts and isolate the hard-line elements on both sides????
No...of course not....one either becomes a "anti-Semite" or a "AIPAC stooge"!....Right?
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 1:19pm
BTW, want "mealy-mouthed"ness on resolving the Israel-Palestinian issue....how about?
"my position is the paelestinians and jews will never find middle ground to agree (just like you and antisocialist)...but at least you two are anonymous, harmless blog commenters."----Posted by urmygyro at 07/29/2009 @ 3:49pm
The Need for Strategic Patience on Iran posted by Robert Dreyfuss on 07/29/2009 @ 10:48am
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 1:22pm
Is sarcasm unknown on your planet? All those examples are the exact same perpetrators of terrorism. Should I add cruise ships and the Jewish cultural center in Buenos Aires?
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 12:37pm | ignore this person | warn this person
The "exact same" pepetrators?
So, anyone who stands against Israel is a terrorist, and part of the "coordinated" Global Jihad?
Very good Mistral. Now prove it.
Or, could it be, that lots of folks consider Israel as their enemy, just as Israel considers lots of folks as their enemy?
Like you said before, "terrorist" is in the eye of the beholder.
The killing of civilians in Lebanon and Gaza is terrorism. Israel is a terrorist state, and supports terrorists such as PKK.
Or go back. How about King David Hotel?
Be real.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:23pm
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 1:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Diplomacy? Is that working?
Or, are you trying to hoodwink us to giving Israel autonomy and unlimited time while they suck us dry?
Do you support sanctions on Israel to be imposed immediately unless they stop building in occupied terrorities and pull back to 1967 borders?
Yes or No.
Do you support revocation of loan guarantees to Israel, that have been used to finance construction in occuppied terrorities?
Yes or No.
Do you support investigation into Israel's use of US arms for offensive purposes, and allowing an independent UN panel to make determination as to whether Israel has violated terms. If violation has been found, will you support revocation of military aid to Israel.
Yes or No.
Do you support investigation into Israeli arms trade and money laundering?
Yes or No.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:34pm
So, anyone who stands against Israel is a terrorist, and part of the "coordinated" Global Jihad?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:23pm
Only one of those examples of terrorism I noted occurred in Israel (Sderot). I could mention others, such as the Munich Olympics, the bombing of Shia (or Sunni) mosques by Sunni (or Shia) bombers, Xinjiang, and Beslan. Why do you mention Israel, specifically? Is there a lot of terrorism being directed at Israel? Why do you think so?
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 1:39pm
Posted by Mask at 09/24/2009 @ 1:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person
BYW - you haven't told us who Penny Pritzker and David Axelrod are - care to answer?
Or, perhaps you don't want to discuss SPECIFICS?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:41pm
Do you support sanctions on Israel to be imposed immediately unless they stop building in occupied terrorities and pull back to 1967 borders?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:34pm
If they pull back to the 1948 borders, will they be allowed to live in peace - like they were in 1948?
But seriously, the borders don't really matter. Once the Iranians or somebody gets hold of a nuke, the whole area, on the Palestinian or Israeli side of the borders, wherever those borders happen to be, will be uninhabitable.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 1:43pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 1:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person
My concern is why terrorism is directed at the United States. Support for Israel is as good as bringing the "terrorists" home. This is what 9/11 is about isn't it - one way or the other?
Any rational country that has the self interest of THE MAJORITY of its citizens in mind would not be pissing off the Muslim world would it. Instead, we've got 2% wagging the dog and marching us down the road to hell.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 1:52pm
But seriously, the borders don't really matter. Once the Iranians or somebody gets hold of a nuke, the whole area, on the Palestinian or Israeli side of the borders, wherever those borders happen to be, will be uninhabitable.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 1:43pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Once again - this is the "end game" isn't Mistral? Nuclear hegemony for a country that isn't even on board with the non-proliferation treaty.
And we here in United States have the privilege of squandering our blood and treasure to ensure that hegemony for Israel.
Count me out. If Iran gets a nuke, maybe Israel will stop threatening it?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 2:00pm
Warning: the following post contains sarcasm.
- - - - - - - - - - - -
Count me out. If Iran gets a nuke, maybe Israel will stop threatening it?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 2:00pm
I suppose in that case Israel will stop saying that Iran should be wiped off the map.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 2:04pm
I don't think people are reading the report properly. Have you ever considered that the U.N.'s first priority may be to protect its own personnel, including locally-hired Arabs? How are they supposed to do that in the Arab refugee camps without U.N. police and troops which the Security Council won't supply? Especially in a Gaza where Arabs claim that Hamas throws those who oppose it from roof-tops?
If you were running the UN, what would you do under the circumstances? Might you not choose to issue reports exculpating those who threaten your employees, even as you try to document their crimes in the hope that they could one day in the future be brought to justice? Bray loudly in agreement with tormentors as you whisper for help to others? Didn't Hamas threaten the UNRWA about teaching the Holocaust? And didn't the UNRWA assure Hamas they would do no such thing?
For example, the Goldstone Report contains the admission of Hamas' leaders that they employed civilians as human shields, but immediately classifies this as boasting rather than proof of criminal intent. That covers the UN's asses. But the Report is a "non-judicial document", so exculpatory labels don't matter if this document is ever cited as proof in a court of law!
There are other nuggets proving Hamas criminal conduct in the report, even if it isn't called such. Accusations against Israel are there, and although they may be inflammatory, how substantial are they?
Posted by Solom at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm
Here's something else you might want to consider about white phosphorus shells.
The "bursting" type WP shells, called M110 shells out of the 155mm guns the Israelis use (as do we), can be used as offensive weapons or as smoke screen creators.
The problem with doctors in Gaza claiming that "spent shells prove the Israelis are using white phosphorus" is that once an M110 shells blows up, there is no "spent shell" to examine. The shell bursts into small fragments, as there is an explosive charge in addition to the WP filler.
But there is one type of white phosphorus shell that does leave a "spent" piece. That's the M825 and M825A2 WP shells.
Problem is, those aren't weapons that can really burn anybody. They are "base ejecting shells" designed only for creating smoke screens. When the shell arrives over the target, two felt wads saturated with WP are ejected. These felt wads burn and create a dense smoke screen. The empty, "spent" shell housing continues on.
I'm an artillery officer of 18 years and have worked extensively with both types of shells. What we have in this instance is either the ignorance of Gaza doctors inadvertently distorting the facts...or purposefully doing it.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm
Here's something else you might want to consider about white phosphorus shells.
The "bursting" type WP shells, called M110 shells out of the 155mm guns the Israelis use (as do we), can be used as offensive weapons or as smoke screen creators.
The problem with doctors in Gaza claiming that "spent shells prove the Israelis are using white phosphorus" is that once an M110 shells blows up, there is no "spent shell" to examine. The shell bursts into small fragments, as there is an explosive charge in addition to the WP filler.
But there is one type of white phosphorus shell that does leave a "spent" piece. That's the M825 and M825A2 WP shells.
Problem is, those aren't weapons that can really burn anybody. They are "base ejecting shells" designed only for creating smoke screens. When the shell arrives over the target, two felt wads saturated with WP are ejected. These felt wads burn and create a dense smoke screen. The empty, "spent" shell housing continues on.
I'm an artillery officer of 18 years and have worked extensively with both types of shells. What we have in this instance is either the ignorance of Gaza doctors inadvertently distorting the facts...or purposefully doing it.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm
Here's something else you might want to consider about white phosphorus shells.
The "bursting" type WP shells, called M110 shells out of the 155mm guns the Israelis use (as do we), can be used as offensive weapons or as smoke screen creators.
The problem with doctors in Gaza claiming that "spent shells prove the Israelis are using white phosphorus" is that once an M110 shells blows up, there is no "spent shell" to examine. The shell bursts into small fragments, as there is an explosive charge in addition to the WP filler.
But there is one type of white phosphorus shell that does leave a "spent" piece. That's the M825 and M825A2 WP shells.
Problem is, those aren't weapons that can really burn anybody. They are "base ejecting shells" designed only for creating smoke screens. When the shell arrives over the target, two felt wads saturated with WP are ejected. These felt wads burn and create a dense smoke screen. The empty, "spent" shell housing continues on.
I'm an artillery officer of 18 years and have worked extensively with both types of shells. What we have in this instance is either the ignorance of Gaza doctors inadvertently distorting the facts...or purposefully doing it.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm
I suppose in that case Israel will stop saying that Iran should be wiped off the map.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 2:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person
They may posture, but "the opportunity" to do so likely will be foreclosed.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 2:32pm
Posted by Happy at 09/24/2009 @ 10:16am
I look forward to the day when you advocate for laser guided bombs targeting police stations and infrastructure in your neighborhood. It's no big deal right? Knocking out electricity and water in Dallas for an extended time and killing a mere 1,000 civilians is the appropriate response when parts of the population commit an act of murder? I think you have stumbled upon a new police tactic we should implement in our own borders.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 11:40am
IF `I' was, say Mexico or Canada, and the US is allowing - perhaps even encouraging - whoever in Dallas to launch rockets into Montreal or Tiajuana, you bet!
You're conflating oranges and martians!
Posted by Happy at 09/24/2009 @ 2:39pm
If you are an anti-Semite and would like to see Israel destroyed by Hamas, Fatah, Hezbullah, Iran, Syria and the rest of the Moslem world, you will welcome this report. Otherwise, you will see the report as just another United Nations damnation of Israel. The only surprise in the report was the comment about the Hamas rockets on the Israelis "would constitute war crimes and may amount to crimes against humanity." The fact that Hamas was committing these, "possible" crimes against humanity (actually against Israel) for three years, still, apparently,in Goldstone's eyes, did not give Israel the right to attack the perpetrators. As for "civilian" deaths, well, those things happen in war, all wars for the last hundred years or more, especially when there is no distinction between the civilian population and the army, like in Gaza where the fighters always hide among the civilian population. Considering the length and nature of Israel's war in Gaza, there were surprisingly few deaths, even if you use Hamas's number which is surely inflated. If Israel had really bombed densely populated centers, as they were accused of doing, the number of dead would have been far more. The Goldstone report is another United Nations hatchet job on Israel.
Posted by Montedoro at 09/24/2009 @ 2:41pm
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person
M825A1 - some "smokescreen"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxfPCPA2d60
Do note the burning phosphorous raining down.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 2:44pm
As usual, you mix up rhetoric with reality. Also interesting that you don't turn this critical eye on people like John Hagee (nuclear attack on Iran), Pat Robertson (assassinate Chavez), etc. The difference between these Christian preachers and the Muslims preachers you like to quote - is that you agree with the Christian nuts. What does that say about you, Reverend? Ever reflect on that in a moment of prayer?
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 11:40am
Can you cite where Hagee, Robertson, or any other Christian leader has called for the end of another nation, and especially the killing of every member of a an ethnicity like the Muslim calls for killing all Jews and the end of the nation of Israel?
You won't be able to because no such quote exists.
What is laughable is the way you consistently defend people who consider you to be the worst kind of infidel and worthy of violent death. And "rhetoric? When they are constantly engaged in trying to kill Jews, I hardly call that rhetoric.
You rely upon lies about Christians and dismiss all of Islams calls for destruction of the Jews, of Israel and the US. And it's not just one or two, I can cite you many Imams and other Muslim clerics who call for the destruction of the US and the Jews.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 2:44pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 2:59pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 2:59pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:00pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:06pm
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 12:19pm
To any rational person, One Votes repeated calls for the destruction of Israel and his hatred of them is anti-semitism.
I did not call Goldstone an anti-semite. And I did read both his report and his letter on why he came to the conclusions that he did.
I completely disagree.
White Phosphorous lies. The IDF used WP for smoke screen and illumination, both of which are legal.
< International Committee of the Red Cross, which certainly cannot be accused of a pro-Israeli bias, issued a statement that backed the IDF statements. "Using phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is legitimate under international law," it said, adding that there was no evidence that Israel was "using phosphorus in a questionable way, such as burning down buildings or consciously putting civilians at risk." (Flares assist search and rescue forces in saving the lives of wounded soldiers and preventing Hamas from snatching the bodies of dead soldiers. To claim that such operations are illegitimate is, in and of itself, immoral.)>
http://tinyurl.com/9h9kyg
Even the use of WP artillary is legal if used against enemy combatants. The problem is the jihadist tactic of hiding behind civilians while launching attacks of their own.
I never see SRJ, you, or anyone else on the left condemning Hamas and other jihadists for this cowardly tactic.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 3:08pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:06pm
Just because you repeat lies stated by SRJ makes them no more true (other than Robertson's comment).
Hagee never called for a pre emptive nuclear strike on Iran. That is a complete misrepresentation of Jerusalem Countdown, a book authored by Hagee (I have a copy).
Also, I agreed with Robertson on the Sharon comment and I stand by that assessment even now.
It is not even relevant since it isn't about a religious or political leader calling for the death of others. It is an acknowledgement of G-d's word about consequences and the action was G-d's not mans.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 3:17pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 2:44pm
It's called having a single moral standard, antisocialist. It means that when someone does something wrong, it's wrong, and it doesn't matter which religion that they subscribe to.
As for your challenge, that's easy. I could point to the Christian Identity movement as the most radical example. We could also talk about the long standing relationship of the Christian Right with segregationist views against civil rights. But, the clearest example is the view of some people that an apocalyptic nuclear war with Iran as a vision set forth in the Bible. Let's look at Hagee's comments:
"Let me be clear: Israel is not the problem, and making Israel the scapegoat will not solve the problem. The problem is the rejection of Israel's right to exist. The problem is radical Islam's bloodthirsty embrace of a theocratic dictatorship that believes they have a mandate from God to kill."
Then he goes on to use the story of Esther to argue that the religious right has a special place in stopping the Persians yet again: "Today another Persian -- Ahmadinejad, The president of Iran - is plotting to exterminate the Jewish people. His goal is to put together the capability for nuclear holocaust...I believe America's evangelicals have been elevated to a position of influence 'for such a time as this.'"
This is all from the beginning of In Defense of Israel, and if you don't see an attack on an ethnicity or on a state, you need to get your head examined.
The bottom line is that Ahmadinejad is playing a rhetorical game that has everything to do with Iran's internal politics. He's the Al Sharpton of the Middle East, and the religious right fantasies about end times and Iran that takes him more seriously than that is part of the problem.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 3:36pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:38pm
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 2:32pm
I think I'm going to give up sarcasm in the future, it doesn't seem to be working. OneVote posted about Israel "threatening" Iran. I posted about Israel "saying that Iran should be wiped off the map." Israel didn't really say that: IRAN said that about ISRAEL. That was the reason for the sarcasm warning at the top of my post: Iran has threatened to wipe Israel, which it calls "the Zionist entity," off the map. When it finally gets a nuke, Iran will most likely do so, and the Middle East will be, as John Travolta said in "Broken Arrow" a very quiet place.
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 3:45pm
I tried but I could not find in the Goldstone report any mention that the Hamas Charter continues to call for the death of all Jews as being commanded by Allah.
<Article 7 of the Hamas Covenant provides the following quotation, attributed to Mohammed: "Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah's promise whatever time it might take. The prophet, prayer and peace be upon him, said: The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him! This will not apply to the Gharqad, which is a Jewish tree (cited by Bukhari and Muslim).">
The following pretty much states the case against the Goldstone Report.
http://tinyurl.com/yewmq2v
<Hamas would "definitely not" be prepared for coexistence with Israel should the IDF retreat to its 1967 borders. "It can be a temporary solution, for a maximum of 5 to 10 years. But in the end Palestine must return to become Muslim, and in the long term Israel will disappear from the face of the earth.">
Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 2005
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 3:52pm
He's certainly fine with call for the assasination of world leaders and denouncing other religions as being Satanic which maybe you don't see it but stokes violence between relgious factions.
"Robertson was criticized worldwide for his call for Hugo Chavez's assassination[41] and for his remarks concerning Ariel Sharon's health as an act of God."
"stating that the preemptive nuclear attack on Iran that he favors will lead to the deaths of most Jews in Israel."
Weird, Hagee is calling for a "pre-emptive" nuclear attack on Iran. I guess that would be calling for the destruction of Iran.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:53pm
To any rational person, One Votes repeated calls for the destruction of Israel and his hatred of them is anti-semitism.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 3:08pm
Oh Satan, you prevaricator, I trust thee not.
Show me where I have called for the destruction of Israel.
Show me where I demonstrate hatred of Jews.
You are the Jew hater. Your vile disregard for humanity, and that of your sanctimonious followers, has created more hatred for Jews than than any anti-semite who has walked this earth.
God lays before us the path of righteousness. You are highwayman laying in wait. Be gone Satan.
Blessed are the meek for they shall inherit the Earth.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 3:54pm
<Hamas would "definitely not" be prepared for coexistence with Israel should the IDF retreat to its 1967 borders. "It can be a temporary solution, for a maximum of 5 to 10 years. But in the end Palestine must return to become Muslim, and in the long term Israel will disappear from the face of the earth.">
Hamas leader Mahmoud al-Zahar Yediot Ahronot, June 24, 2005
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 3:52pm
Maybe because the Goldstone report was not about the cultural war going on but about the tactics used in the find. It doesn't make a difference what Hamas is saying intentionally murdering a civilian population not militant is wrong no matter how you frame it. This wasn't a report about ideology which is why it is considered non-partisan. It's funny that you are trying to build a case for Goldstone being an anti-semite when he is in fact a Zionist Jew.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:56pm
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 3:36pm
No one accepts Christian Identity as part of Christianity. You can't be serious in calling them Christian.
As to the Christian right and segregation. Those in the Christian right who supported segregation, were clearly wrong and deserved to be denounced for it.
And your attempts to make Hagee say something that he doesn't say just are nonsensical.
I know what Hagee says and believes. I share many of his views.
It is a fact that Muslims do not acknowldge (with some few exceptions, the right of Israel to exist). Nor does Islam permit them to have the state of Israel.
You are certainly entitled to have a different view about the end times for mankind, but I will stick with the Bible. It is a more reliable authority.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:02pm
No one accepts Christian Identity as part of Christianity. You can't be serious in calling them Christian.
As to the Christian right and segregation. Those in the Christian right who supported segregation, were clearly wrong and deserved to be denounced for it.
And your attempts to make Hagee say something that he doesn't say just are nonsensical.
I know what Hagee says and believes. I share many of his views.
It is a fact that Muslims do not acknowldge (with some few exceptions, the right of Israel to exist). Nor does Islam permit them to have the state of Israel.
You are certainly entitled to have a different view about the end times for mankind, but I will stick with the Bible. It is a more reliable authority.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:02pm
So you are saying he doesn't support a premptive nuclear strike on Iran?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 4:06pm
Maybe because the Goldstone report was not about the cultural war going on but about the tactics used in the find. It doesn't make a difference what Hamas is saying intentionally murdering a civilian population not militant is wrong no matter how you frame it. This wasn't a report about ideology which is why it is considered non-partisan. It's funny that you are trying to build a case for Goldstone being an anti-semite when he is in fact a Zionist Jew.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 3:56pm
So, you are now resorting to lying about my comments even after I state to you that I'm not calling Goldstone an anti-semite.
And I disagree with any statement that he is a Zionist Jew. There is nothing to suggest that he shares any love for Zion or being a Jew.
And the charter of Hamas is central to the issue. Neither the UN nor any other international body has condemned Hamas for formally calling for the destruction of a nation.
Your continued defense of Hamas while only finding fault with Israel suggests that you also have gone over to the dark side of anti-semitism.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:08pm
Posted by Mistral at 09/24/2009 @ 3:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person
Goebbels would be proud Mistral.
Still peddling that nonsense?
Your sarcasm doesn't work because you posit a true proposition in contrast to a true proposition.
Israel has threatened Iran with attack. (without doubt that is true)
If Iran acquire a nuke, Israel likely won't attack Iran.
now this would be a better example of sarcasm.
Israel has displayed the highest ethical standards in combating terrorism. (Shimon Peres) - the false proposition
IDF is happy to report estimates of Palestinian dead from the campaign range from 1,166 to 1,417. IDF has also destroyed an estimated 4,000 Palestinian homes. IDF is happy to report that only 13 Israelis were killed during the conflict.' - the true proposition that disproves the false proposition.
Get it?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 4:15pm
Sept 2009
<Abbas Conference Shows Pa Has No Interest In Peace
By Morton A. Klein
Fatah, the ruling party in the Palestinian Authority (PA) headed by Fatah co-founder, Mahmoud Abbas, has held in Bethlehem it first congress in twenty years. What has emerged? - An adamant refusal to accept Israel's existence as a Jewish state; glorification of terrorists and the "armed struggle," insistence on the so-called ‘right of return,' and rejection of an end of claims in any future peace agreement.
When former PA prime minister Ahmed Qureia opened proceedings, he did so "in the name of shahids (martyrs, i.e. dead terrorists)" - not exactly the words of a peace partner who has accepted Israel and renounced terrorism and incitement to hatred and murder.>
http://www.muslimworldtoday.com/morton11.htm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:23pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 2:44pm
As for the rest of your comments, the world is full of stupid people with bad ideas. It is also full of people that are prejudiced and bigoted. Much of this reign of error is closely associated with fundamentalist notions about the world whether its fundamentalist religions, economic fundamentalism (free market / communist) or the many other varieties out there.
And you know what? There is so much stupidity that, in order to function in this world, you have to kind of step back and not be bothered by it. Most people are just a bunch of talk and can be safely ignored.
"You rely upon lies about Christians and dismiss all of Islams calls for destruction of the Jews, of Israel and the US."
The bottom line is that Hagee believes a strike on Iran is both necessary and will result in nuclear weapons being used, lead to Ezekiel's War and the Battle for Armageddon. Whether nuclear weapons are used in the opening salvo or not, I don't think matters much according to his logic - but in his book he is careful not to call for it explicitly. On that point you are correct. However, I have seen secondary sources reporting comments elsewhere (AIPAC) where he wasn't so coy.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 2:28pm
It would be easy enough for someone to see phospherous burns and see these shells and make the connection, no? As you state, the fact that these shells are there doesn't mean the weaponized versions weren't used, and in fact, the case of Abu Hamila indicates it was used in an anti-personnel capacity.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 4:25pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:02pm
So you are saying he doesn't support a premptive nuclear strike on Iran?
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 4:06pm
He has never said anything like that. It is a complete distortion of what he said. He believes in the future the US or Israel will use bunker busters to attack Iranian nuclear weapons facilities that are deep underground.
A move I support.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:25pm
<IDF is happy to report estimates of Palestinian dead from the campaign range from 1,166 to 1,417. IDF has also destroyed an estimated 4,000 Palestinian homes. IDF is happy to report that only 13 Israelis were killed during the conflict.' - the true proposition that disproves the false proposition.
Get it?
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 4:15pm>
CCC, I rest my case.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:27pm
CCC, I rest my case.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:27pm
How does that prove anything? If that's what you rest your case on then your case is as week as it appeared before.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 4:32pm
antisocialist at 09/24/2009
Olmert praises Gaza op commanders
Prime minister says IDF adhered to high moral standards during war against Hamas
Hanan Greenberg Published: 01.20.09, 17:55 / Israel News
Prime Minister Ehud Olmert met Tuesday with brigade commanders who led the military operation in Gaza and commended their performance.
During the meeting, which summed up Operation Cast Lead, Olmert told GOC Southern Command Yoav Galant that his performance was "a masterpiece".
A MASTERPIECE!
The mighty Israeli military strikes again.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 4:37pm
I'm just the nuclear facilities but at the same time it's funny to me that you guys don't see that you claim that all or almost all Muslims want the destruction of the west and to protect ourselves we must fight them. How is that not a call to the destruction of the Muslim world? If most or all of them want us dead then the call to protect ourselves by striking at them is a call to destroy most or all of them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 4:38pm
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 4:02pm
I'm not in the business of deciding who is and who is not a Christian. I just know that some, perhaps the vast majority, aren't (Matthew 7:21-23).
"It is a fact that Muslims do not acknowldge (with some few exceptions, the right of Israel to exist). Nor does Islam permit them to have the state of Israel."
The first part is more or less true. I think the second is a new wrinkle that Muslims are trying to work out.
http://www.meforum.org/2462/the-quran-israel-not-for-jews
As for end times, I don't pretend to know anything about it. That's all extra nonsense that people are tacking onto the Bible - War of Ezekiel and what not. I don't subscribe to any of it.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 4:42pm
It would be easy enough for someone to see phospherous burns and see these shells and make the connection, no? As you state, the fact that these shells are there doesn't mean the weaponized versions weren't used, and in fact, the case of Abu Hamila indicates it was used in an anti-personnel capacity.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 4:25pm
White phosphorus can legitimately be used as an anti-material weapon. Enemy combatants near those materials would certainly be at risk of being burned as a result. It would not be as effective to use WP on "troops in the open", because there are just better munitions for that. Simple high explosive has a better kill radius than a bursting WP type shell. Frankly, I'd rather have dead enemies than ones that probably survive with bad burns. That leaves you open to charges of cruelty in the press. There ARE anti-war liberals in Israel and it doesn't pay to tempt their ire with these actions. That sort of thing can cost you public support in your own country.
Unfortunately, I have not seen too many "anti-war liberal" protestor types on behalf of the Palestinians or their supporters. That's mostly an Israeli thing, along with elected governments, rock concerts, and even gay pride parades.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 5:01pm
It would be easy enough for someone to see phospherous burns and see these shells and make the connection, no? As you state, the fact that these shells are there doesn't mean the weaponized versions weren't used, and in fact, the case of Abu Hamila indicates it was used in an anti-personnel capacity.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 4:25pm
White phosphorus can legitimately be used as an anti-material weapon. Enemy combatants near those materials would certainly be at risk of being burned as a result. It would not be as effective to use WP on "troops in the open", because there are just better munitions for that. Simple high explosive has a better kill radius than a bursting WP type shell. Frankly, I'd rather have dead enemies than ones that probably survive with bad burns. That leaves you open to charges of cruelty in the press. There ARE anti-war liberals in Israel and it doesn't pay to tempt their ire with these actions. That sort of thing can cost you public support in your own country.
Unfortunately, I have not seen too many "anti-war liberal" protestor types on behalf of the Palestinians or their supporters. That's mostly an Israeli thing, along with elected governments, rock concerts, and even gay pride parades.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 5:01pm
It would be easy enough for someone to see phospherous burns and see these shells and make the connection, no? As you state, the fact that these shells are there doesn't mean the weaponized versions weren't used, and in fact, the case of Abu Hamila indicates it was used in an anti-personnel capacity.
Posted by srjenkins at 09/24/2009 @ 4:25pm
White phosphorus can legitimately be used as an anti-material weapon. Enemy combatants near those materials would certainly be at risk of being burned as a result. It would not be as effective to use WP on "troops in the open", because there are just better munitions for that. Simple high explosive has a better kill radius than a bursting WP type shell. Frankly, I'd rather have dead enemies than ones that probably survive with bad burns. That leaves you open to charges of cruelty in the press. There ARE anti-war liberals in Israel and it doesn't pay to tempt their ire with these actions. That sort of thing can cost you public support in your own country.
Unfortunately, I have not seen too many "anti-war liberal" protestor types on behalf of the Palestinians or their supporters. That's mostly an Israeli thing, along with elected governments, rock concerts, and even gay pride parades.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 5:01pm
White phosphorus can legitimately be used as an anti-material weapon. Enemy combatants near those materials would certainly be at risk of being burned as a result. It would not be as effective to use WP on "troops in the open", because there are just better munitions for that. Simple high explosive has a better kill radius than a bursting WP type shell. Frankly, I'd rather have dead enemies than ones that probably survive with bad burns. That leaves you open to charges of cruelty in the press. There ARE anti-war liberals in Israel and it doesn't pay to tempt their ire with these actions. That sort of thing can cost you public support in your own country.
Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/24/2009 @ 5:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person
So why did the US use White Phos. in Fallujah?
Your argument totally disregards the military strategy of Israel in Gaza - terrorize and disperse citizens.
Comparing white phos. to explosives with greater kill radius is just nonsense and bogus.
Yeah....I am sure Likud is real scared of anti-war liberals in Israel.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 5:48pm
I'm just the nuclear facilities but at the same time it's funny to me that you guys don't see that you claim that all or almost all Muslims want the destruction of the west and to protect ourselves we must fight them. How is that not a call to the destruction of the Muslim world? If most or all of them want us dead then the call to protect ourselves by striking at them is a call to destroy most or all of them.
Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/24/2009 @ 4:38pm
I've yet to see Hagee, myself, or any Christian leaders state that all or almost all Muslims want the destruction of the west.
But Pew polls show that many millions do.
With rankings as high as 68% (Palestinians), the average support among Muslims for suicide bombings of non muslims is 7%. Well that seems small until you consider 7% of 1.8 billion.
that is over 100 million people who support killing innocent women and children for their religious cause.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 5:58pm
So why did the US use White Phos. in Fallujah?
Your argument totally disregards the military strategy of Israel in Gaza - terrorize and disperse citizens.
Comparing white phos. to explosives with greater kill radius is just nonsense and bogus.
Yeah....I am sure Likud is real scared of anti-war liberals in Israel.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 5:48pm
1st, the US gave advanced notice calling all civilians to vacate the area prior to launching the assault against the terrorists.
2nd, it was a legal use to for either smoke screens or to illuminate areas during night movements.
Posted by antisocialist at 09/24/2009 @ 6:01pm
Larry -
White Phosphorous was used as an offensive weapon in Fallujah and in Gaza.
Smokescreen my ass. Burn and Toxic Smoke Bomb would be a more accurate characterization. Like US troops were breathing that stuff.
Read how all your Zionist friends like Shimon Peres in Israel and Marty Peretz are claiming that we should not point the finger of blame at Israel as depicted in the Goldstone Report, because we did and are doing the same thing in Iraq and Afghanistan.
How does this make you feel?
It makes me really feel sick, aside from the issue of atrocity.
We give these Zionists our blood and treasure, and they trash us, and like little children blaming a sibling, scream "they did it too."
Watch out Larry. You may just get one in the back one day.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 7:24pm
Last update - 18:52 17/09/2009
UN must hold Obama to same standard as Israel
By Ari Shavit, Haaretz Correspondent
Israel news - Excerpt
"Some two weeks ago American airplanes fired on two oil tankers in northern Afghanistan. It was a German officer who'd asked the U.S. air force to attack the tankers in the middle of the night, in a populated area. The attack was successful - the two tankers were hit, went up in flames and were destroyed. But the overwhelming American-German air attack killed some 70 people. Some of those brought to hospitals were severely injured - with mutilated faces, burned hands and charred bodies.
It is not clear to this day if most of those who burned to death were Taliban warriors, as NATO first claimed, or innocent civilians who wanted to bring home a bit of oil. One way or another, it's clear that the United States and Germany are responsible for an extremely brutal attack. Britain, France, Spain, the Netherlands, Belgium and Norway also bear responsibility for the massacre as NATO members."
Now look what our good friend has to say about us. They are even calling our President an Anti-Semite.
We give these scumbags billions, and trillions when you consider wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, missile defense cooperation, economic aid, loan guarantees, etc.
It is clear the Israel believes that their dual agent US Congres has such a stanglehold over the United States, that they are perfectly free to do as they please, and bite the hand that feeds them. Look at the recent Israeli spy case and let these traitors off the hook.
Cut the parasite off - NOW.
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 7:37pm
"So why did the Israeli government boycott the commission? The real answer is quite simple:they knew well that the commission, or any commission would have to reach the conclusions it did reach".-Uri Avnery (Israeli peace activist and former Knesset member),' on the Goldstone Report ' 19 September 2009. He told the truth and the world knows , how the Zionist media support the Israeli crimes. The US and Co are there in the UN, to veto any UN resolutions against the rogue state Israel.It is due to their support, Israel has been committing such acts against humanity.
Posted by Dastu11 at 09/25/2009 @ 08:40am
Goebbels would be proud
Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 4:15pm
I'm sure we can find examples of Abyssinians falling short of perfection when attacked by Mussolini's Fascists, or the South Koreans during Kim Il Sung's war, or the Union Army in 1863, but using that sort of thing as an argument for your position is a classic case of
"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?"
Of course you may disagree with this just because it was said by a Jew in Jerusalem, but it's still true.
Posted by Mistral at 09/25/2009 @ 08:51am
Of course you may disagree with this just because it was said by a Jew in Jerusalem, but it's still true.
Posted by Mistral at 09/25/2009 @ 08:51am | ignore this person | warn this person
In other words...'he without sin cast the first stone'
U.S. Is "Concerned" About the Goldstone Report on Gaza; Maybe Washington Should Turn Its Eyes on Afghanistan and Itself
Marty Peretz - The New Republic
September 17, 2009 | 6:28 pm
'Actually, the very sponsorship of the Report is suspect. The investigating body operated under the aegis of the United Nations Human Rights Council which spends early all of its time preparing resolutions condemning Israel. The legislation establishing the Goldstone commission was sponsored by Cuba, Egypt (in behalf of the Organization of Arab States) and Pakistan (representing the Islamic Conference). Months before the commission was established one of its not yet appointed members had already decided (and in public) that Israel was guilty of war crimes in Gaza. (The Council has not been able to decide whether Sudan is guilty of war crimes. Or Congo. Or Sri Lanka. Pardon me: but I don't mean to compare Israel to these states.)'
Mr. Zionist Peretz fails completely to discuss that the Goldstone Report requests that Israel conduct its own investigation in response disputing (or agreeing with) the findings of the report. Israel quite simply, refuses to do such. They would rather wage a war of propaganda rather than bring evidence to the table justifying their purported "high ethical standards."
Well Mistral, I am getting the feeling that you feel that I am biased against Jews (last your sentence), but you know, Goldstone is a Jew and a Zionist to boot.
Posted by OneVote at 09/25/2009 @ 09:26am
'What's significant about the report, in my opinion, and what's significant about what happened in Gaza, I think it marks a major turning point. It's like the Sharpville massacre in South Africa. Now, Sharpville is not Soweto, but Sharpville was a turning point. Richard Goldstone is a liberal. Richard Goldstone is very supportive of Israel. And it's now marking the breakup of liberal Jewish support for Israel. And as we both know and as all of your listeners know, Jews are overwhelmingly liberal in their sentiment. Seventy-nine percent of Jews in the last election voted for Obama. And what you're seeing now is the breakup of Jewish support for Israel.
You saw during the Gaza massacre you had some of the old-timers like Alan Dershowitz, Michael Walzer, characters--Martin Peretz, characters like that, you know, kind of comical figures coming out supporting Israel. But if you looked at the younger Jewish--the younger Jewish constituency--bloggers like Matt Yglesias, Glenn Greenwald and so forth--they all opposed the Gaza massacre from almost like day one or day two. And then you had significant defections, like Andrew Sullivan, who--not Jewish, but still a significant figure, who also came out against the Gaza massacre.'
Excerpt: Finkelstein on The Goldstone Report, Democracy Now
I have alot of respect for the truth tellers, whether they be Jewish or not. The anti-semite argument just isn't going to work.
Posted by OneVote at 09/25/2009 @ 09:31am
Well Mistral, I am getting the feeling that you feel that I am biased against Jews (last your sentence), but you know, Goldstone is a Jew and a Zionist to boot.
Posted by OneVote at 09/25/2009 @ 09:26am
Whether or not you're biased against the Jews, or Israel for that matter, is irrelevant. Let's pretend that you aren't biased, and that Jews really are evil. Consider the following:
One of the reasons given for protests aganst the Vietnam War was: never mind if they are an opressive totalitarian dictatorship, we have no reason to be at war with them, leave them alone and they will leave us alone. Now turn things around and tell the Iranians: you may hate the Jews and the Israelis, you may call them pigs and dogs and say the Holocaust never happened, but you have no reason to be at war with them, you have no reason to tell them they should not exist. Tell the Iranians this, and also Egypt, Jordan, Lebanon, Syria, the Saudis, Hezbollah, Hamas and Fatah. When they stop firing rockets at Israeli schoolchildren, then we'll resume the discussion.
And if you want Israel to return the land their enemies gave up after they attacked them, remind them that:
1. Israel already returned the Sinai, Gaza (interesting that Jews had to leave Gaza, but there are still Muslims in Tel Aviv), and most of the West Bank and it didn't get them peace.
2. The Arabs can queue up behind the Germans who want Danzig back, the Greeks who want Constantinople back, the Indians who want the Aksai Chin back, the Russians who want the Crimea back, the Italians who want Fiume back, the Spanish who want Peru back, the Chinese who want Formosa back, and the Kurds, Ibos and Tibetans who want their entire countries back.
Posted by Mistral at 09/25/2009 @ 10:22am
'I have alot of respect for the truth tellers' -- OneVote -- 25 September, 2009 -- 09:31AM
'Goebbels would be proud' -- OneVote -- 24 September, 2009 -- 04:15PM
I think I see a contradiction here.
Seriously, Mistral, weren't you saying in other posts that we shouldn't be bothering with all this because the Iranians or somebody would turn the Middle East into a barbecue pit sometime in the next few decades?
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/25/2009 @ 10:37am
Seriously, Mistral, weren't you saying in other posts that we shouldn't be bothering with all this because the Iranians or somebody would turn the Middle East into a barbecue pit sometime in the next few decades?
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/25/2009 @ 10:37am
Oh, I'm not looking forward to it, but look at people in the past, Hitler and Mugabe and so forth, who've been willing to take everything down with them. Then consider that everybody from the kids in the streets of Gaza, dancing when they hear about another Israeli hospital turned into a crater, to the men who strap explosive belts to teenagers and tell them to find a Jew to blow up, to the bigwigs of the Arab and Muslim world denying the very right of the state of Israel to exist while they build nuclear reactors, and tell me what you think the landscape between the Nile and the Euphrates will look like in a hundred years.
Posted by Mistral at 09/25/2009 @ 10:52am
On the other hand, if the Israelis think that's coming down the line, they wouldn't have been so restrained in what they've done so far: they'd have booted out Hamas and tried to settle their entire population within a dozen miles of Jerusalem on the theory that that's a spot the Muslims would avoid lobbing a nuke at.
Posted by HonestLiberal at 09/25/2009 @ 12:09pm