The Notion

Capitalism: A Love Story--An Early Review

posted by Adam Howard on 09/22/2009 @ 09:21am

Last night I attended a press screening of Michael Moore's new film Capitalism: A Love Story. As with all of his films it made an immediate, strong impression on me and it also surprised me a little, my thoughts are below and yes, this contains some spoilers so beware...

First off, the film in some ways made me realize how familiar Michael Moore's filmmaking has become--this is arguably a detriment to his message and possibly a slight to his directorial prowess but as fan I have come to enjoy his usual gimmicks and this film is chock full of them:

The moving personal testimonials: Families recount learning that companies had profited from large insurances policies taken out on their tragically deceased loved ones--this sequence literally made me want to call my Congressman to express my outrage.

The absurd/scary facts and figures: One particularly chilling sequence explores how woefully underpaid, overworked and therefore unreliable our nation's commercial airline pilots are. If you're currently afraid of flying this portion of the film won't do you any favors.

The brilliant, adept use of vintage documentary footage: Moore probably puts classic clips to better use in this film that in any of his previous work--the highlight for me being a brilliant deconstruction of Reaganism--if you didn't hate The Gipper before this film, you will afterwards.

Moore showing up at office buildings trying to get bigwigs to talk on camera: In my opinion, the most played out of the director's schtick. It worked better in Roger & Me when he really was a nobody but now you get the feeling the people at GM have an actual security procedure to enact whenever Moore shows up.

In addition to all the usual stylistic choices though is the element to all Moore's films which is often overlooked--their inherent optimism. In nearly every one of his films Moore hits you over the head with his all-American biography, his seemingly idyllic childhood in 1950s-era Flint, Michigan. To his credit in this film, he's careful to point out that this period was not ideal for everyone (i.e. Black people) but he clearly believes that America was once great and he is first and foremost a patriot who wants to see the country return to its FDR-era heyday.

His brilliance is often in these moments which almost always come at or near the end of his films. He makes you laugh, cry, thoroughly depresses you and then wins you over with some form of uplift. Despite some of the most relentlessly disheartening scenes I've ever seen in a documentary film, I came out of Fahrenheit 9/11 and Sicko amped up and ready to take on...well somebody. The problem with Capitalism is that its weakest moments are in its dénouement. It's still a great film, don't get me wrong. But I felt really ambivalent at the end, even Moore himself sounds tired, a little withdrawn. The film very effectively communicates that blood is on both Republican and Democratic hands when it comes to our nation's economic collapse. Chris Dodd comes off almost as badly as Hank Paulson. And while Obama is mostly handled with kid gloves (a glaring oversight, sure to draw partisan attacks from the right) I walked away from this film feeling like financial reform will be even more difficult to achieve than healthcare reform--that the interests who want to see the status quo maintained are so much more entrenched and that the lessons of the last thirty years haven't been learned at all.

Moore seems to want to convince that there's a light at the end of the tunnel but this time I just don't believe him--even though I want to. His argument that the victory of the Republic Windows and Doors workers coupled with Obama's election represent a rebellion against capitalism just don't hold up. And let's face it, his other films' warnings were not heeded. Instead of being emboldened I felt a little hopeless after the credits rolled. But I also kind of wanted to see the film again.

Editor's Note: Stay tuned this week for a Q&A between author Naomi Klein and Michael Moore, appearing exclusively on TheNation.com

Comments (191)

  1. do you know how many times i've read "i support president obama, but......."?

    the wheels on the bus are deflating.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:34am

  2. I wonder if part of the problem with Moore's premise is that we aren't really a capitalist nation? Our financial system was socialized in 1913. And the federal government and politicians' "entitlements to buy votes" and pandering to special interests strategy has been growing out of control ever since. If you think our financial system is capitalistic, you are clueless.

    It is political constraint and control of capitalism that threatens our liberty, not capitalism itself.

    In fact, it is worthy to discuss whether we are any more "capitalist" than the former USSR was "socialist."

    Posted by freiheit1 at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53am

  3. chew on this frei:

    capitalism inevitably becomes a perverted form of communism

    and

    communism inevitably becomes a perverted form of capitalism.

    humans are greedy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 11:13am

  4. humans are greedy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 11:13am

    True....and they like to complain.

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 11:18am

  5. Moore has become a perverted member of the human race...all the way to the bank...

    he is a fraud..and should be working for ALGORE.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 11:18am

  6. Actually, Moore is irrelevant.

    "Farenheit" did little to influence people on Iraq or Afghanistan or the Patriot Act or whatever.

    "Sicko" barely a blip compared to the Right's town halls.

    "C:ALS" won't matter much anyway.

    He's only useful as another "Isn't he swell?" for the Left and punching bag for the Right mostly due to charges of hypocrisy.

    BTW, speaking of which....prediction. A minimum of 15 urmy posts on this thread....heheh

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 11:22am

  7. <And while Obama is mostly handled with kid gloves (a glaring oversight, sure to draw partisan attacks from the right)>

    I doubt it since most of us on the right will not waste our time watching it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 11:27am

  8. well, antisocialist, if you haven't seen any of his films, then why pollute the thread?

    that goes for you and jomamma.

    as for freiheits comment: i'm curious where you're going with the claim that we've been 'socialized' since 1913.

    what about the 1980s and 1990s?

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:29am

  9. "It is political constraint and control of capitalism that threatens our liberty, not capitalism itself."

    this is the statement of freiheit's with which i don't agree.

    but his first paragraph, about politicians pandering for vote, and the influence of money on our political system.....i very much agree.

    first off, please define "liberty".......

    second, define "capitalism"

    i think there must be a moral foundation in order for capitalism (or truly free markets) to work. and that moral foundation is found in the civic arena, where laws are made and upheld.

    capitalism run amok does not create "liberty" for all, as we have seen the last 30 years.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:32am

  10. Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:29am

    I have seen all of them...hence my statement...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 11:40am

  11. The federal government is sending each of us a $600 rebate. If we spend that money at Wal-Mart, the money goes to China. If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. If we buy a computer/Software it will go to India. If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala. If we purchase a good car it will go to Germany. If we purchase useless crap it will go to Taiwan and none of it will help the American economy. The only way to keep that money here at home is to spend it on prostitutes and beer, since these are the only products still produced in US. I've been doing my part . Eliot Spitzer, former Governor, New York"[6]

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 11:43am

  12. jomamma,

    why is he perverted? you might disagree with his political stance, but what about all of the interviews he does with average, working people? their suffering? their sorrows?

    i can't understand why any american wouldn't feel something very deeply in all of his movies.

    i personally think he's an amateur documentarian, and definitely a propagandist at times.

    but at other times, i am moved by stories of average people. and he's also a really funny guy who has an uncanny ability to make rich, powerful guys look sad.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:44am

  13. "If we purchase fruit and vegetables it will go to Mexico, Honduras and Guatemala."

    not my fruit and vegetables! which, btw, are poppin!!

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:45am

  14. If federal control of corporations or its regulation is now considered socialism, then the USA from its inception was created to be socialistic. Thus what the new con repubs eventually really want is an overthrow of our US Constitution...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 11:47am

  15. ....

    first off, please define "liberty".......

    second, define "capitalism"

    i think there must be a moral foundation in order for capitalism (or truly free markets) to work. and that moral foundation is found in the civic arena, where laws are made and upheld.

    capitalism run amok does not create "liberty" for all, as we have seen the last 30 years.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:32am

    If you have to have "liberty", defined at this point in time then you do not deserve it, since you don't seem to recognise threats to ours on a daily basis by Obama and his cabal...

    To ask for a definition of Capitalism , especialy in todays modern world(hint: it funds all the things you want done and many of the things those who pay for it for don't want)indicates you are truly a long way from capitalism and are not a contributer..and will never understand how it works or what it is,nor its benefits to all.

    Capitalism has not run amok in the last 30 years...it is the regulations and politicians who are trying to micro manage it and produce conflicting and unintended consequences that have run amok and caused the issues for the last 100 years..

    You should try capitalism for a change, actualy partake in creating a business, create a job for others, make a payroll...it would awaken you from you stoned stuper and remove the scales from your eyes...

    for you are blind.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 11:49am

  16. "FDR-era Heyday"?? Do you mean the Depression?

    Posted by abell12ct at 09/22/2009 @ 11:57am

  17. not my fruit and vegetables! which, btw, are poppin!!

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:45am | ignore this person | warn this person

    you will be walking on our graves Darla.

    Saw a documentary the other day on the "bud" economy of northern Californina. Many heretofore critics coming around, realizing that it is cash crop that keeps the local economy above water, and homes out of foreclosure. Border enforcement keeping prices high. Underground economy continuing to grow. Many immigrants to this country from far away places have skills to teach us in this regard. Pull the plug, and live.

    What Maasch doesn't realize is that this is grass roots capitalism.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 11:59am

  18. I can literally see the reviewer eating popcorn while doling out this disassociated analysis. It just continues to show why news print and the 4th estate aren't important anymore-the reviewer talks about the Movie as those the things in it aren't real. I know he is adhering to critical etiquette but that etiquette is a bit too aristocratic and removed to matter to me. It doesn't so much critique the movie as diminish the actual subject matter's import and that is criminal not critique.

    Posted by blackjedi47 at 09/22/2009 @ 12:04pm

  19. Michael Moore is a national treasure. Two hundred years from now they will be studying his films and books in civics classes - much as they do Thomas Paine today.

    Thank goodness for the nation!

    http://www.tomdegan.blogspot.com

    Tom Degan Goshen, NY

    Posted by Tom Degan at 09/22/2009 @ 12:05pm

  20. " it funds all the things you want done and many of the things those who pay for it for don't want"

    capitalism does not fund "all things".

    i get most of my energy from the sun. we have 3 large solar panels, 6 storage batteries. we grow all of our fruits, vegetables and herbs.

    i buy a few things from the farmers markets.

    with the exception of socks and underwear, i haven't bought any clothing in 20 years.

    we make soap here, and have various herbal remedies for the shower/bath.

    i do buy toothpaste and toothbrushes.

    we do have a shared pair of computer terminals, but no television.

    i am mostly self-sufficient here, maasch.

    isn't self-suffiency a conservative hallmark?

    whereas you, you are utterly dependent on someone else. utterly dependent. just like all those welfare queens you hate.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:05pm

  21. Many immigrants to this country from far away places have skills to teach us in this regard. Pull the plug, and live.

    What Maasch doesn't realize is that this is grass roots capitalism.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 11:59am

    Actualy, I do. Legalise Mary jane and the economy will open up, but Daraloon may not like the results...

    I like the "grass roots" pun, too...

    she will have free reign pot for a awhile, but then the govt will desend on the crop with their taxmen and regulate the industry worse than the alcohol business....

    Legalise pot and the criminals from the street will disappear as will much street crime that surround it, but govt hacks and business will enter and the result will be Budweiser Pot farms ...

    unless Darlaloon types stop the water so no pot can be grown in open fields that require irrigation...

    Waddaya think Darlaloon? No pot in order to save fish?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:07pm

  22. I saw F911. Dishonest propaganda. Trash. Disgusting. Appalling.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/22/2009 @ 12:08pm

  23. " It doesn't so much critique the movie as diminish the actual subject matter's import and that is criminal not critique."

    agreed

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:10pm

  24. "i think there must be a moral foundation in order for capitalism (or truly free markets) to work. and that moral foundation is found in the civic arena, where laws are made and upheld."

    The Framers agreed with your first part, Darla, but not with the second.

    Their moral foundation was in Judeo Christian belief in one God.

    They recognized the FACT the we are fallen and our "rights" can only come from God, not, as you contend, from other men. If they came from men, men can take them away.

    Darla, you have apparently no real understanding of the true function of the Federal Reserve or the IMF/World Bank, do you? If you did, I suspect you might see what is really going on.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 09/22/2009 @ 12:12pm

  25. "but then the govt will desend on the crop with their taxmen and regulate the industry worse than the alcohol business....

    the government will not "descend" on a handful of plants, maasch, just like they won't care about my 20 tomato plants....

    the water issue is key. but water for native foods, herbs, etc....is a priority.

    not water for foods which shouldn't grow in california.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:15pm

  26. "You should try capitalism for a change, actualy partake in creating a business, create a job for others, make a payroll...it would awaken you from you stoned stuper and remove the scales from your eyes...

    for you are blind."

    I need to understand what it means to try 'capitalism' for a change. Why is that the only way to try it is to open a business. It seems rather totalitarian that we would have an economic system where those who defend it define it by stating that you can only do one thing your whole life (be a businessman). What if I find that to be absolutely dull and painfully boring. Will this be like the USSR in the 30's where it was illegal to change jobs? Are you advocating that everyone go into business? If everyone tried capitalism, then who's get ripped off (isn't that how it works?). Who works the shitty jobs you would provide, with no benefits, worker rights, and low pay? If we all tried capitalism for a change, would we end up with a bunch of businessmen standing around with no one to do the actual work? I'd personally love to see guys in pinstripe suits working an assembly line, but that would never happen. You are advocating a system of 'winners and losers' (talk to any libertarian, and this comes up eventually) unaware that the game is pretty much rigged , and most of us will not make it. It's not because we can't, it's because the system is designed where we can't all be winners. It's just the way it works.

    Posted by reverbunny at 09/22/2009 @ 12:16pm

  27. If federal control of corporations or its regulation is now considered socialism, then the USA from its inception was created to be socialistic. Thus what the new con repubs eventually really want is an overthrow of our US Constitution...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 11:47am

    I dont think regulationing capitalism or corporations is socialism, but I think govt taking over complete control of how corporations are run on a micro level to the point it becomes a govt entity(see GM), creating "govt industrys to compete with private ones" , to have govt control the larg4est portion of the resources( TAXES, PROFITS AND THE CAPITAL),is socialism at best and communism at worst....

    all for the people, of course.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:18pm

  28. "Their moral foundation was in Judeo Christian belief in one God"

    i'm not talking about "their" moral foundation. i'm talking about adam smith's.

    and freiheit always brings up the federal reserve.

    (yawn)

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:19pm

  29. Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 11:59am

    Actualy, I do. Legalise Mary jane and the economy will open up, but Daraloon may not like the results...

    I like the "grass roots" pun, too...

    she will have free reign pot for a awhile, but then the govt will desend on the crop with their taxmen and regulate the industry worse than the alcohol business....

    Legalise pot and the criminals from the street will disappear as will much street crime that surround it, but govt hacks and business will enter and the result will be Budweiser Pot farms ...

    unless Darlaloon types stop the water so no pot can be grown in open fields that require irrigation...

    Waddaya think Darlaloon? No pot in order to save fish?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:07pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    My apologies. And you are right, if it is legalized, Agri-Business will put the little growers out of business. The other side of capitalism.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 12:19pm

  30. An Alternative to Capitalism?

    The following link, takes you to a "utopian" article, entitled "Home of the Brave?" which I wrote and appeared in the Athenaeum Library of Philosophy:

    http://evans-experientialism.freewebspace.com/steinsvold.htm

    John Steinsvold

    Posted by John_Steinsvold at 09/22/2009 @ 12:19pm

  31. "but I think govt taking over complete control of how corporations are run on a micro level to the point it becomes a govt entity(see GM)"

    GM was begging for help. second, the government does not have "complete control" of GM.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:20pm

  32. Capitalism has not run amok in the last 30 years...it is the regulations and politicians who are trying to micro manage it and produce conflicting and unintended consequences that have run amok and caused the issues for the last 100 years..

    You should try capitalism for a change, actualy partake in creating a business, create a job for others, make a payroll...it would awaken you from you stoned stuper and remove the scales from your eyes...

    for you are blind.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 11:49am

    YourJomamma, such quaint notions! The big bucks lie in stealing retirement funds, outsourcing labor to the lowest denominator, sucking billions off the government tit (aka Cheney), engaging in complex ponzi schemes, and other forms of theft on a massive scale. I'll bet you haven't even bought your first politician. YOu need to think bigger!

    Posted by Dwight Wall at 09/22/2009 @ 12:23pm

  33. "And you are right, if it is legalized, Agri-Business will put the little growers out of business

    history does not show this to be completely true. in fact, local, artisan farming is on the rise. farmers' markets are on the rise.

    and like i said, agribiz might be growing the bulk of the tomotoes, but i grow my own, without interference from the govnt or biz.

    there is a growing backlash against agri-business.

    sure, they own the patents on many different types of food, that is a problem, but we have the power to fight back (i am).

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:24pm

  34. and what about the legalization of alcohol?

    do you see a problem with microbrews these days?

    no, you don't. quite the opposite, they are flourishing....

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:24pm

  35. Moore shines a light into our sewers and records it on film. So many just don't like what they see, don't want to believe and call him a liar. Is he a ugly, fat, rich, hypocrit? Most likely. Is he a liar? probably not.

    Posted by Extraneous at 09/22/2009 @ 12:25pm

  36. " I'll bet you haven't even bought your first politician. YOu need to think bigger!

    good one, dwight. maasch is a small-time thinker. cant really see the big picture. ever. says the same thing over and over again.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:26pm

  37. Steal a hundred dollars and they'll put you in stir, Steal a hundred million, they'll address you as sir, Scientists will tell you it's a matter of bulk and size, Steal Manhattan Island and it's yours for a prize...

    Steal a silver teapot and you'll land in Sing Sing, Steal the Roman empire and they make you a king, So don't rob a bank, take the whole city hall, And never steal anything small...

    Steal a farmers chickens, you get shot in the rear, Steal a string of oil wells, you're a big financier, Every would-be burglar should engrave it upon his brains, If the theft is large enough it's capitol gains!

    Bribe a few policeman, you'll be covered with grief, Bribe the whole department and they'll make you the chief! You'll always be judged by the size of your haul, So never steal anything small!

    Posted by ficheye at 09/22/2009 @ 12:27pm

  38. Posted by Dwight Wall at 09/22/2009 @ 12:23pm

    actualy, the big bucks lie in the govt coffers and the ability to tax away everything from everyone.....

    thats is the problem...

    you leftys focus on CEO pay checks and don't see the govt walking away with the entire enterprise...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:27pm

  39. I've seen some Michael Moore films. More opinion than documentary. They were so full of BS I had to take a shower after watching them just to clean the stench off.

    Posted by slinkybro at 09/22/2009 @ 12:31pm

  40. True....and they like to complain.

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 11:18am

    isn't pain a form of complaint?

    if you felt no pain, wouldn't you bleed to death?

    ••

    let's just say that if this world were populated by frostish ones,

    we could easily support 8 billion with today's technology.

    ••

    humpty dumpty was the ultimate fence sitter.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 12:34pm

  41. " I'll bet you haven't even bought your first politician. YOu need to think bigger!

    good one, dwight. maasch is a small-time thinker. cant really see the big picture. ever. says the same thing over and over again.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:26pm

    sorry guys....the politicians are no longer for sale...they have all been purchased....

    The sign reads,..."sold out"....you figure which meaning fits...they have all sold out long ago or there are none left to buy...

    and if you have read me long enough here, you would know I work hard to send NONE of my money to Washington...I don't trust ANYONE there.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:34pm

  42. "you leftys focus on CEO pay checks and don't see the govt walking away with the entire enterprise...

    so obama (and bush, mind you) bail out the largest banks, and several companies, and now they're en route for the "entire enterprise"?

    uh-huh.

    if bush hadn't completely destroyed the country, then obama (a center-right capitalist technocrat) probably wouldn't have had to rescue anyone.

    and btw, leftys are irrelevant on this matter...

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:37pm

  43. there is a growing backlash against agri-business.

    sure, they own the patents on many different types of food, that is a problem, but we have the power to fight back (i am).

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Yes - but they are coming on with "organic" food - they seem to morph after organic farmers have shown profitability and have paved the way. What part of the resentment is against GMO/Chemical food, and what part is resentment against death of the family farm?

    Local cooperatives can hopefully keep agri-business out, and people need education to not buy their products. A daunting task. It would seem that our "organic" growers have to do double/triple duty - show that organic is healthy for you, for the environment, and for the local economy. All true.

    If government wants to get in on the action, people will need to barter in order to avoid taxes which are sure to be confiscatory. In this way, family growers can still compete.

    I can just see it now.....Bureau of Alcohol, Firearms, Tabacco, and Weed.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 12:38pm

  44. "and if you have read me long enough here, you would know I work hard to send NONE of my money to Washington...I don't trust ANYONE there."

    no wonder why washington doesn't work.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:39pm

  45. It's my understanding that Moore's film portrays a couple worker's cooperatives, which I think is great because it shows that there are alternatives to market capitalism that we the people can create. However, I want to talk about the the cooperative that is not show in the movie.

    I drive for Union Cab, a 100 percent worker-owned-and-operated cooperative in Madison, Wisconsin. On a chilly night this April, Moore's film crew rode in my taxi for several hour, interviewing me and shooting footage. They rode with another driver the next day and conducted several interviews with various members.

    Unfortunately, we didn't make the final cut. Obviously, we're all disappointed, but we certainly understand the sifting and winnowing required to make a film. I can't comment on the cooperatives portrayed in the movie, but I can certainly talk about Union Cab. Our mission is to provide jobs at a living wage in a humane work environment while paying attention to the environment. ALL our employees are full-fledged members of the cooperative with all rights and responsibilities of membership. Policy is set by our board of directors, which is elected from the membership, by the membership. Policy is hammered out by committees whose membership is open to all members. The board hires and supervisors the general manager, who hires and supervisors all subordinate managers. Thus, while we cede authority to management, we supervise management so they really and truly work for us, the membership. And how does one become a full member? Get hired, pass probation and buy your share of stock for $25!

    Our members receive seniority pay raises, which means that our veteran drivers are some of the highest paid cabbies in the industry and the best.

    Hopefully we'll be in the DVD. Check us out.

    Posted by fmschep at 09/22/2009 @ 12:41pm

  46. "Farenheit" did little to influence people on Iraq or Afghanistan or the Patriot Act or whatever.

    •• just ask mr. "i'm a patriot actor, too" obama.

    "Sicko" barely a blip compared to the Right's town halls.

    •• or mr. obama's campaign donations.

    "C:ALS" won't matter much anyway.

    •• not with geithner, summers and heliben at the helm.

    He's only useful as another "Isn't he swell?" for the Left and punching bag for the Right mostly due to charges of hypocrisy.

    •• don't say that about mr. obama!

    BTW, speaking of which....prediction. A minimum of 15 urmy posts on this thread....heheh

    •• BTW, seven per cent of the inverse differential is equal to the proportionate defibrillation of nine-fifths of overhead calculations.

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 11:22am

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 12:44pm

  47. so obama (and bush, mind you) bail out the largest banks, and several companies, and now they're en route for the "entire enterprise"?

    uh-huh. ......

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:37pm

    Yup,

    Hint: GM, Health Care..Salary descions made in Washington by..party hacks who have never run a business...

    Obama a cemter right....anything....

    Now that is a hoot.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:44pm

  48. as for freiheits comment: i'm curious where you're going with the claim that we've been 'socialized' since 1913.

    what about the 1980s and 1990s?

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:29am

    oh, lord darla...

    you've just turned freiheit jekyll into fiat hyde.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 12:46pm

  49. "and if you have read me long enough here, you would know I work hard to send NONE of my money to Washington...I don't trust ANYONE there."

    no wonder why washington doesn't work.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:39pm

    Darlaloon,

    Washington does't work because of not enough money is there or because most like me who make and want to keep a bigger part than govt takes...

    ....hell it doesn't work because of too much money is there...

    and when they spend all of that and more... they print!!!!

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:47pm

  50. first off, please define "liberty".......

    •• frei means 'do whatever you want'. he knows people are never greedy.

    second, define "capitalism"

    •• frei means 'do whatever you want'. he knows people are never greedy.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 11:32am

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 12:48pm

  51. obama is without a doubt, center-right, maasch. anyone with even a shred of intelligence knows that obama is not even close to being a "liberal." bush pushed the country so, so far to the right, that anyone (literally, anyone) to the left of bush is "liberal" these days.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:50pm

  52. maasch,

    if private companies can manage healthcare better than the government, then why are prices so high? why are so many people w/out insurance? why are CEOs making tens of millions annually? why are 45,000 people dying per year, because they don't have insurance? why are 62% of bankruptcies medically-related? why are 80% of those 62% from people *who already have insurance*? why do 14,000 *lose* their health insurance everyday?

    you always go on and on about efficiency of the private sector, but these facts belie that so transparently. and you refuse to listen! you cannot even accept the fact that private companies cannot take care of our country!

    but in other countries, they don't have these problems, everyone is covered, and people actually live longer.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:53pm

  53. Hopefully we'll be in the DVD. Check us out.

    Posted by fmschep at 09/22/2009 @ 12:41pm

    Are you competetive in your market?

    And if so, good for you, since I assume you must compete with other cab companys, but if you are faced with a competetitor who offers same or better service, then are you in jeopardy if you need to match fares and therefore less money comes into you company coooperative?

    Are you regulated by govt as to how much or little you are able to charge or can you charge what the market will bear? Because as a consumer, I am intersted in the best service and ride my money can hire or buy....not neccessarily the cheapest..

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:54pm

  54. Hopefully we'll be in the DVD. Check us out.

    Posted by fmschep at 09/22/2009 @ 12:41pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    A message of hope. Keep up the good work!

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 12:59pm

  55. obama is without a doubt, center-right, maasch. anyone with even a shred of intelligence knows that obama is not even close to being a "liberal." bush pushed the country so, so far to the right, that anyone (literally, anyone) to the left of bush is "liberal" these days.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:50pm

    WOW!!!!

    Drugs when abused, will cause complete brainfarting...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:59pm

  56. We have free will within restraints-- knowing there are laws formed from a common consensus that are necessary to all our survival.

    I'm free to drive a car. But I have to: buy or rent the car, get car insurance, pay for a license, taxes and inspection, maintain it, follow all the laws, rules, reg's pertaining to driving it, drive defensively and avoid road rage, avoid drinking alcohol, txting....etc.

    Freedom has a price. Regulation is mandated by our constitution for a reason. And there was a reason why the framers of our constitution did not consider corporations persons with the rights of people.

    Arguably, neither were women and non-property owners...

    But considering they got more right than wrong, I'd amend the decision that created corporate personhood.

    Corporations are necessary in order for our gov not to have to micro manage. As for GM my understanding is that they manage their own HR, make payroll, own back what was lent. So our gov is GM's bank? Just a little perspective.

    Strict regulation is good. Consider if there were no police, no road signs, one could ride on either side of the road, ...etc. That's what happened with the banks, wall street, credit cards, ...etc. That's what happened with the war, no bid contracts, faulty intel, torture,...etc.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 1:06pm

  57. tell us, maasch, how is obama a "liberal"?

    please, enlighten us.

    i want specific examples of how he is a liberal.

    and btw, you CANNOT mention the bailouts or the stimulus, because bush did the same fucking thing.

    in that regards, there is no left-right dichotomy.

    we all can agree that there is a revolving door between wall street and washington.

    but other than that, i want to know specifically why obama is a liberal, despite his two wars, his expanding security apparatus, bagram, guantanamo, wiretapping, etc, etc....

    and, don't even think of mentioning healthcare. what will be a gift to the insurance industry is not "liberal" and neither is a fucking weak ass public option for a few million people....

    the last true liberal was FDR.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 1:11pm

  58. To Dwight Wall;

    CEO's are the government now. EOS. You can go back to sleep. <insert name of deity here> help us now.

    Posted by frump at 09/22/2009 @ 1:13pm

  59. Posted by abell12ct at 09/22/2009 @ 11:57am

    How about if we go back to the economic policies of the good ol' days of Eisenhower, abell???

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 1:13pm

  60. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 12:44pm

    FROSTY, it's funny....taking away the "extraneous matter"....you're actually agreeing with me on Moore, aren't you?

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 1:14pm

  61. When Communism doesnt work, it's defenders claim: "that wasn't REAL Communism".

    When Communism doesnt work, it's defenders claim: "that wasn't REAL Communism".

    When Capitalism doesnt work...

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 1:23pm

  62. DPGrassley,

    who is defending communism here?

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 1:25pm

  63. BTW;

    Freedom, on which everyone here seems to believe they have a handle (or at least a definition), is something of which we will have proven ourselves unworthy in the final frame. Sometimes we have to make great sacrifices (even freedom itself) in order to preserve it; but sacrifice is a word that appears to have vanished from the dialog. And so, while our parents generation sacrificed much to face the threat of global fascism and defeat it, we will drown in our little puddles of greed and self-indulgence and our own stupidity will defeat US. Go ahead, everybody, point fingers at everybody else; we're just locking the barn door after the horses have bolted.

    We are ALL to blame, internet sages.

    Posted by frump at 09/22/2009 @ 1:29pm

  64. Get out of here, you never heard a Communist saying that "Russia wasn't REAL Commuunism"???? What are you saying? Just because no Communist has made that argument on this thread, that it isnt a real phenomenon??? Communists have been saying that ever since Stalin got in there. Guess what, Communists, the USSR WAS REAL Communism. Stalin WAS A REAL Communist. What Stalin produced WAS the fruits of REAL Communism. Just because nobody said it today on this thread, doesnt mean what I said isn't true. Communists been using that line of apology ALL ALONG.

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 1:33pm

  65. ....hell it doesn't work because of too much money is there... and when they spend all of that and more... they print!!!!

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:47pm

    actually,

    there is much more private debt than government debt

    and the current printingfest is to give the banks reserves to cover all their (pending) losses made because of unregulated greed.

    remember, loans are made first, then the money is created.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 1:44pm

  66. Drugs when abused, will cause complete brainfarting...

    Projected by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 12:59pm

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 1:46pm

  67. FROSTY, it's funny....taking away the "extraneous matter"....you're actually agreeing with me on Moore, aren't you?

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 1:14pm

    mr. moore seems like a good human.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 1:49pm

  68. Sharia advocates within the Taliban, claim that only when the entire world adopts and enforces Sharia, then prosperity will descend from Heaven. If anything goes wrong in one country that has adopted Sharia, it's only because the rest of the world has followed.

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 1:58pm

  69. When Capitalism doesnt work...

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 1:23pm

    it's because the commies have infiltrated!

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 2:03pm

  70. True Capitalism - completely devoid of pitfalls - infallible - universal panacea - will only exist if we get rid of Social Security, Medicare, and Taxes except on the middle class.

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 2:09pm

  71. Get out of here, you never heard a Capitalist saying that "The U.S. isn't REAL Capitalism"???? What are you saying? Just because no Capitalist has made that argument on this thread, that it isnt a real phenomenon??? Capitalists have been saying that ever since FDR got in there. Guess what, Capitalist, the U.S. IS REAL Capitalism. OBAMA IS A REAL Capitalist. What Bush produced WAS the fruits of REAL Capitalism. Just because nobody said it today on this thread, doesnt mean what I said isn't true. Capitalists been using that line of apology ALL ALONG.

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/22/2009 @ 1:33pm

    or, something like that.

    stupid humans.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 2:10pm

  72. True Capitalism - completely devoid of pitfalls - infallible - universal panacea - will only exist if we get rid of humans.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 2:11pm

  73. Capitalism has not run amok in the last 30 years...it is the regulations and politicians who are trying to micro manage it and produce conflicting and unintended consequences that have run amok and caused the issues for the last 100 years..

    You should try capitalism for a change, actualy partake in creating a business, create a job for others, make a payroll...it would awaken you from you stoned stuper and remove the scales from your eyes...

    for you are blind.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 11:49am

    So are you suggesting that our economic system should entirely unregulated?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 2:13pm

  74. So are you suggesting that our economic system should entirely unregulated?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 2:13pm

    mmmmm, arsenic.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 2:14pm

  75. So are you suggesting that our economic system should entirely unregulated?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 2:13pm

    Not at all....

    I believe our current financial melt down was due to over and conflicting regulations on the banking and investing communities...

    Pressure brought to bear on Fannie and Freddie by govt(Franks, Waters, et al) to increase home ownership for many, who upon real examination, would never qualify..if you don't loan you get pressure from govt, if you do loan you could collapse system should values drop...and they dropped..like a rock.

    ...combined with market to market values policy killed banks and made balance sheets for reserves in banks verses bad loans constantly having to call in loans that would survive in order to cover dead loans reserve ratios for cash on hand...banks STILL have toxic loans on their books, hampering loan making. Govt should remove those dead loans from bank books and get loans moving, and the economy would jump back.

    anyway...

    Over regulation by incompentents is just as bad as no regs by greedy fools...both lead to collapse of entire system.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 2:28pm

  76. Over regulation by incompentents is just as bad as no regs by greedy fools...both lead to collapse of entire system.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 2:28pm

    So then you believe that full capitalism is a bad idea too?

    You believe in some version of what we have now, you just believe in less regulation, in undoing what you see as unneccesary or contradictory regulation.?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 2:36pm

  77. If you have not read Capital, Vol 1, some fundmentals should be understood for a discusssion of the subject.1.) Labor creates all wealth, not capitalists.It is that wealth that creates jobs, the physical means of production, including the capitalits obscene "benefits". 2.)They accumulate capital by not paying for the surpluses created only by labor, essentially stealing unpaid wages. 3.)The labor theory of value. 4.)Capitalists "own" the private means of production, their racketeering class conspired to steal, pass on to their children, heirs, workers own nothing but their labor power. How do 1% wind up owning 95% of everything? Grandest theft in all history. By institutionalizing theft and convincing the victime it is in their own intereest to be raped and blinded ideologically, materially plundered. Great system "capitalism", no? Economic democracy, fagettaboutit...Bamboozeled into teabagging knownothingism. Moore included, but yet he searches and that pursuit helps us all.

    Posted by EmmettGrogan at 09/22/2009 @ 2:52pm

  78. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 1:49pm

    Possibly...but again...is he relevant?

    Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 3:10pm

  79. So then you believe that full capitalism is a bad idea too?

    You believe in some version of what we have now, you just believe in less regulation, in undoing what you see as unneccesary or contradictory regulation.?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 2:36pm

    Yes. Id say this is as close to my views as any..

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 3:30pm

  80. "And you are right, if it is legalized, Agri-Business will put the little growers out of business

    history does not show this to be completely true. in fact, local, artisan farming is on the rise. farmers' markets are on the rise.

    and like i said, agribiz might be growing the bulk of the tomotoes, but i grow my own, without interference from the govnt or biz.

    there is a growing backlash against agri-business.

    sure, they own the patents on many different types of food, that is a problem, but we have the power to fight back (i am).

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:24pm

    I actually think there is truth in both of these positions. But I do favor darla's on this point.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 3:37pm

  81. the wheels on the bus are deflating.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:34am

    It's ok, there are enough bodies stashed there by Magic, tires aren't necessary any more.

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 3:43pm

  82. obama is without a doubt, center-right, maasch. anyone with even a shred of intelligence knows that obama is not even close to being a "liberal." bush pushed the country so, so far to the right, that anyone (literally, anyone) to the left of bush is "liberal" these days.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/22/2009 @ 12:50pm

    If only this were true, I'd be happy.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 3:44pm

  83. 1.Are you advocating that everyone go into business? If everyone tried capitalism, then who's get ripped off (isn't that how it works?). Who works the shitty jobs you would provide, with no benefits, worker rights, and low pay? If we all tried capitalism for a change, would we end up with a bunch of businessmen standing around with no one to do the actual work? I'd personally love to see guys in pinstripe suits working an assembly line, but that would never happen. You are advocating a system of 'winners and losers' (talk to any libertarian, and this comes up eventually) unaware that the game is pretty much rigged , and most of us will not make it. It's not because we can't, it's because the system is designed where we can't all be winners. It's just the way it works.

    Posted by reverbunny at 09/22/2009 @ 12:16pm

    This displays an utter lack of understanding of history. People have been starting their own business as the means of self sustenance for thousands of years.

    Go to Asia and it seems like every family has a business in their home or elsewhere. It used to be that way in this country. You were either a farmer or you were self employed unless bankrupt and then you worked for someone else.

    Nearly everyone could own a business if they really wanted to control their own lives instead of letting someone else control it for them.

    As to the question of assembly line style jobs like auto mfg, I like the idea of every worker being an independent contractor. Taking all the same deductions as GM. Switching your services to the Mfg that is in greatest demand.

    Once I found out the advantages of being an independent contractor decades ago, I never wanted to be an employee ever again.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 3:47pm

  84. Oh-Oh...

    Health Care alert...

    "SEPTEMBER 22--A postal worker who stole more than 3000 DVDs mailed by Netflix to its customers pleaded guilty yesterday to federal theft charges. "

    We had better be careful about turning our health care over to govt workers with access to...the medicine cabinet.....:-)

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 3:47pm

  85. Yes. Id say this is as close to my views as any..

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 3:30pm

    Gotcha. Just wanted to clarify.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 3:57pm

  86. Michael Moore is certainly representative of the current evil and adulterous generation disdaining everything and everyone he percieves as threatening to his diminished views of society and economic activity.

    Funny how he opportunistically always desires to capitalize for himself off of his demented efforts to define that he cannot understand or merely just hates irrationally!

    Posted by BigPasture at 09/22/2009 @ 4:13pm

  87. Michael Moore is certainly representative of the current evil and adulterous generation disdaining everything and everyone he percieves as threatening to his diminished views of society and economic activity.

    Funny how he opportunistically always desires to capitalize for himself off of his demented efforts to define that he cannot understand or merely just hates irrationally!

    Posted by BigPasture at 09/22/2009 @ 4:14pm

  88. Lordy! A lot of Righties got a lot of time on their hands! Out of a job, guys? Or sitting at work wasting your employer's time?

    Whatever. Man, are you guys BORING!

    Posted by barnesgene at 09/22/2009 @ 4:18pm

  89. Lordy! A lot of Righties got a lot of time on their hands! Out of a job, guys? Or sitting at work wasting your employer's time?

    Whatever. Man, are you guys BORING!

    Posted by barnesgene at 09/22/2009 @ 4:18pm

    Self-employed...what's your excuse?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 4:27pm

  90. Self-employed...what's your excuse?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 4:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    I suspect "perpetual academia" liberal arts!

    Posted by BigPasture at 09/22/2009 @ 4:33pm

  91. Whatever. Man, are you guys BORING!

    Posted by barnesgene at 09/22/2009 @ 4:18pm

    Self-employed...what's your excuse?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 4:27pm

    barnes doesn't have any! He's admitted that he is the most boring of all.....to come right out and say the boringest of boring....but which entertains me/us....shows how desperate we are to be bored by bores worse than ourselves....

    Hey, Libs......giving you a break today....rephrase My Favorite saying since 1/20/09: Is TIME your friend?

    Bonus Capitalism questions: Is The Annointed One ripening in office just as you had bought brand Hopey and Changey? Has there been an illegal bait-and-switch? Is he a better vintage `wine' today than yesterday? Thinks he'd get our money's worth at the Waldorf Astoria tonight? Is Air Obama worth trademarking?

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 4:39pm

  92. Lordy! A lot of Righties got a lot of time on their hands! Out of a job, guys? Or sitting at work wasting your employer's time?

    Whatever. Man, are you guys BORING!

    Posted by barnesgene at 09/22/2009 @ 4:18pm

    I, for one, get paid for what I produce, not how long I have been at a desk or at a machine....I am paid on production, not time on the job or hours at the job...

    you must be refering to union jobs...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 4:42pm

  93. Bonus Capitalism questions: Is The Annointed One ripening in office just as you had bought brand Hopey and Changey? Has there been an illegal bait-and-switch? Is he a better vintage `wine' today than yesterday? Thinks he'd get our money's worth at the Waldorf Astoria tonight? Is Air Obama worth trademarking?

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 4:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Saw a news segment today on the tube that indicated that Bill Clinton is going to be running this administration pretty soon..............i.e., more than just a hand holding role. It would seem that more than Repubs are getting a little concerned...........Ms. Clinton already doing an end around on Afghanistan. The sharks smell blood.

    Bubba is Back!

    Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 4:54pm

  94. Self-employed...what's your excuse?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 4:27pm

    Slacker good-for-nothing, huh? OK...

    I, for one, get paid for what I produce, not how long I have been at a desk or at a machine....I am paid on production, not time on the job or hours at the job...

    you must be refering to union jobs... Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 4:42pm

    Well, if that's the case, you'll be needing a bailout pretty soon if you keep spending your time here!

    Back to work, drone!!!!!

    Union labor >>>>>> YourJomamma labor

    Posted by badreligionlover at 09/22/2009 @ 5:14pm

  95. Posted by badreligionlover at 09/22/2009 @ 5:14pm

    Afraid not...

    ..no bail out needed....

    I have been promoted in one sector and I own part of the other business, and we avoid anything that involes govt on any level if at all possible.

    Ones business will either make it or not baased on market conditions and your position in running a business to survive inj those conditions...

    Govt bail outs have no place in the free market...but we dont have a free market and it is getting less free by the day.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 5:18pm

  96. "It is political constraint and control of capitalism that threatens our liberty, not capitalism itself."

    What a crock of shit!

    Posted by gamphd at 09/22/2009 @ 5:21pm

  97. Right and left really do not exist any longer, nor the way we once had them function. We have rightish lefties and then we have a few dysfunctional crazies that once served as the right.

    Of course we also have a few rightish lefties that fear the few dysfunctional crazies that once served as the right and call themselves blue dog dems. And thus pretend to be all dysfunctional crazy like too. The theory is that they are recoverable through various types of modern meds.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 5:35pm

  98. Ones business will either make it or not baased on market conditions and your position in running a business to survive inj those conditions... Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 5:18pm

    You are so wonderfully naive. Market conditions? Ability to survive? Yo DO need to get offa these message boards before you're run out of business by the swindlers! (er, your "fair competition" keeping in place the "logic" of the free market)

    Seriously, why aren't you back to work yet?!! We need the god of capitalism to judge all! To show us blind lefties why union workers (whom the god himself has never met; why should he when he can worship the almight caricature?) are inferior to the work of his almighty lordship!!!

    Now more than the Ghost of Tom Joad... The ghosts of Enron and Madoff are what's possessing capitalism today!

    Back on the subject... probably see Love Story, but I still don't have any clues as to how good it will be.

    Still, the heart-breaking human stories Sicko (his best movie) told has definitely influenced Obama's rhetoric and policy (He mentions people doing everything the god of capitalism wanted them to do, yet still getting denied coverage due to the heresy of the obscure pre-existing condition.) Moore defintely showed us his best work with that one.

    Post Office labor >>>>>>> private labor

    Pissed off employee swipes a few Netflix movies vs. greedy loan sharks swindle millions from poor neighborhoods with gimmicky subprimes? (which had nothing to do with gov regulation) I know what I'd picked...

    But I'm not the god here...

    God, trolling trolls is fun...

    Posted by badreligionlover at 09/22/2009 @ 5:50pm

  99. Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 5:18pm

    Good lord, get over yourself...

    Posted by ADHD at 09/22/2009 @ 6:09pm

  100. Right and left really do not exist any longer, nor the way we once had them function. We have rightish lefties and then we have a few dysfunctional crazies that once served as the right.

    Of course we also have a few rightish lefties that fear the few dysfunctional crazies that once served as the right and call themselves blue dog dems. And thus pretend to be all dysfunctional crazy like too. The theory is that they are recoverable through various types of modern meds.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 5:35pm

    I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying.

    Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come. Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody tuesday. Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long. I am the eggman, they are the eggmen. I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 6:12pm

  101. Posted by gamphd at 09/22/2009 @ 5:21pm

    Yes, you are.

    Posted by freiheit1 at 09/22/2009 @ 6:14pm

  102. michael moore really brings out the rightie rage. what fun.

    Posted by sirhcus at 09/22/2009 @ 6:19pm

  103. There are only two jobs in this world - you either make shit or you sell shit. Everything else is mere rhetoric.

    Posted by vaguelyinterested at 09/22/2009 @ 6:33pm

  104. Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 6:12pm

    I thought I was the only one who thought what he posted was crazy but I see you are in agreeance.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 6:54pm

  105. Actually, Moore is irrelevant. Posted by Mask at 09/22/2009 @ 11:22am | ignore +++

    It's not Moore's fault that we are a nation of idiots. Of course he is irrelevant to the idiots--like Mencken and Thomas Paine and a bunch of other smart guys that have tried to get us to wise up.

    (heh heh)

    Posted by Citizen54 at 09/22/2009 @ 7:06pm

  106. I thought I was the only one who thought what he posted was crazy but I see you are in agreeance.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 09/22/2009 @ 6:54pm

    I couldn't help myself, that Beatles song was the first thought that came into my mind after trying to read his post.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 7:40pm

  107. I need to understand what it means to try 'capitalism' for a change. Why is that the only way to try it is to open a business. It seems rather totalitarian that we would have an economic system where those who defend it define it by stating that you can only do one thing your whole life (be a businessman). What if I find that to be absolutely dull and painfully boring. Will this be like the USSR in the 30's where it was illegal to change jobs? Are you advocating that everyone go into business? If everyone tried capitalism, then who's get ripped off (isn't that how it works?). Who works the shitty jobs you would provide, with no benefits, worker rights, and low pay? If we all tried capitalism for a change, would we end up with a bunch of businessmen standing around with no one to do the actual work? I'd personally love to see guys in pinstripe suits working an assembly line, but that would never happen. You are advocating a system of 'winners and losers' (talk to any libertarian, and this comes up eventually) unaware that the game is pretty much rigged , and most of us will not make it. It's not because we can't, it's because the system is designed where we can't all be winners. It's just the way it works. Posted by reverbunny at 09/22/2009 @ 12:16pm

    This displays an utter lack of understanding of history. People have been starting their own business as the means of self sustenance for thousands of years.

    Go to Asia and nearly every family has a business in their home or elsewhere. It used to be that way in this country. You were either a farmer or you were self employed unless bankrupt and then you worked for someone else.

    Most people could own a business if they really wanted to control their own lives instead of letting someone else control it for them

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 7:47pm

  108. Have you guys seen the PSA that Will Farrell and friends did with moveon.org? Priceless!

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/22/2009 @ 7:55pm

  109. I guess I should tell you its about saving the corporations from universal HC.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/22/2009 @ 7:56pm

  110. The lessons learned on Wall St over the last 28 years are that the scams can work well for the right players & the US govt can be readily bought to allow these scams.

    Posted by sloper at 09/22/2009 @ 8:01pm

  111. When can I expect Moore's documentary on how great life is in countries without capitalism?

    I had a picture I took in a Baghdad neighborhood of a couple of kids playing with a kite. I thought it was abnormal, so I took a picture of it. After watching Moore's movie, I was given to understand that Iraqi kids only played with kites during the salad days of the Saddam years. You know, waiting for pop to come back from an eight year war with Iran, or wondering if he would come back after being carted away in a black sedan in the middle of the night.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/22/2009 @ 8:20pm

  112. When can I expect Moore's documentary on how great life is in countries without capitalism?

    I had a picture I took in a Baghdad neighborhood of a couple of kids playing with a kite. I thought it was abnormal, so I took a picture of it. After watching Moore's movie, I was given to understand that Iraqi kids only played with kites during the salad days of the Saddam years. You know, waiting for pop to come back from an eight year war with Iran, or wondering if he would come back after being carted away in a black sedan in the middle of the night.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/22/2009 @ 8:20pm

  113. When can I expect Moore's documentary on how great life is in countries without capitalism?

    I had a picture I took in a Baghdad neighborhood of a couple of kids playing with a kite. I thought it was abnormal, so I took a picture of it. After watching Moore's movie, I was given to understand that Iraqi kids only played with kites during the salad days of the Saddam years. You know, waiting for pop to come back from an eight year war with Iran, or wondering if he would come back after being carted away in a black sedan in the middle of the night.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/22/2009 @ 8:20pm

  114. God, trolling trolls is fun...

    Posted by badreligionlover at 09/22/2009 @ 5:50pm

    I am a small business and small business is the back bone of the country, which is why we are sensitive to unions cause they kill us off and why we do not like govt mandates cause they can put us out of business with what seems like "small" taxes....

    what you are refering to, the big boys, get all the press and when its bad its very bad, and for the left big business is always bad...

    and the Enrons is all you remember...and the Enrons and Madoffs, who are supposed to be watched by govt guys...get missed everytime...missed by the guys who miss the FBI bomb parts at the airport...missed by the union clods who were otherwise unemployable and govt agencys who miss it all....

    and you want to turn over our health to the same idiots who miss Madoff and Enron and bomb parts in airports....

    so, who are the trolls again?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 10:03pm

  115. I believe our current financial melt down was due to over and conflicting regulations on the banking and investing communities...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 2:28pm

    WHOA, NELLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    hahahahahaha.

    no, i have not just read what i just read. let's try again:

    I BELIEVE OUR CURRENT FINANCIAL MELT DOWN WAS DUE TO OVER AND CONFLICTING REGULATIONS ON THE BANKING AND INVESTING COMMUNITIES...

    POSTED BY YOURJOMAMMA AT 09/22/2009 @ 2:28PM

    hahahahahaha.

    oh, lordy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:32pm

  116. It's ok, there are enough bodies stashed there by Magic, tires aren't necessary any more.

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 3:43pm

    i have no clue what the fork that means.

    nonetheless, this is just dumb:

    CHINA WARNS OF ‘DANGEROUS PRECEDENT' FROM OBAMA'S TIRES TARIFFS

    By Mark Drajem

    Sept. 17 (Bloomberg) -- Zhou Wenzhong, China's ambassador to the U.S., warned that President Barack Obama's decision to impose tariffs on Chinese tire imports may set a "dangerous precedent" as other industries ask for protection.

    obama, hoover.....

    they both suck.

    c'mon barack, i actually believed 2/5ths of what you said in the campaign. where have you gone?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:41pm

  117. and you want to turn over our health to the same idiots who miss Madoff and Enron

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 10:03pm |

    I believe our current financial melt down was due to over and conflicting regulations on the banking and investing communities...

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/22/2009 @ 2:28pm

    oh, lordy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:48pm

  118. you know MASK,

    i don't really care if mr. moore is relevant.

    i find his movies moving at times;,; at other times annoying.

    and he can be funny.

    i think his over-all impact has been a positive one for humans.

    so i guess i do care because good humans are good.

    nobody's perfect.

    look at it this way,

    mr. moore's views are more relevant than any of ours.

    [i'd rather be a one hit wonder than a no hit wonder.]

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53pm

  119. Frosty, do you have a minimum, in hours or pay, for getting gig? How many "wonders"? You use an agent? If so, what's his/her cut? Solo act?

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 11:29pm

  120. We have rightish lefties and then we have a few dysfunctional crazies that once served as the right. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 5:35pm

    I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together. See how they run like pigs from a gun, see how they fly. I'm crying. Sitting on a cornflake, waiting for the van to come. Corporation tee-shirt, stupid bloody tuesday. Man, you been a naughty boy, you let your face grow long. I am the eggman, they are the eggmen. I am the walrus, goo goo g'joob. Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @ 6:12pm

    A perfect example. Thanks.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/22/2009 @ 11:33pm

  121. mr. moore's views are more relevant than any of ours. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53pm

    Now now, you may be right, but it's still unpleasant for some to hear...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 12:38am

  122. "mr. moore's views are more relevant than any of ours"

    that's the correct answer

    "Now now, you may be right, but it's still unpleasant for some to hear..."

    by "unpleasant" i suppose you mean "true"

    moore, while still a propagandist, is generally right about the what's wrong with america. i think left and right wingers (middle class and below) are generally pissed (or envious) at the ruling class (always have been), but always fight amongst themselves. why are we fighting each other and not the ruling class?

    ever wonder that?

    Posted by darladoon at 09/23/2009 @ 01:35am

  123. <And while Obama is mostly handled with kid gloves (a glaring oversight, sure to draw partisan attacks from the right)>

    I doubt it since most of us on the right will not waste our time watching it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/22/2009 @

    Thank you Anti(everything?) for showing us the biggest problem for the right and left fanatics: Closed Mindedness! If you took off the blinders and investigated more than one side of an issue, we all might be better off. To dismiss something out of hand just because it may make you think is foolish and immature. Put down the kool-aid, turn off Fox and Rush, LISTEN to other points of view then use the brain God gave you to decide for yourself. It is called growing up. Are you affraid that you might be wrong on some issues? Don't be, after all your opinions really aren't your own. I know because I used to be a left version of you, anything from the right was BS. Once I started listening to their side I came to see that there was some validity to certain points they made. I am still considered a lefty by most but I no longer just cosign all the nonsense. I seek information from all sides and form my own opinions. Try it.

    Posted by jimeuf at 09/23/2009 @ 05:34am

  124. I must live in a different country than all these bunch of whining cry babies. Everyone I know makes a six figure income here in LA and some even have less than the high school education I have. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to know that if you work hard, stay out of debt and save your money you can really get ahead under this evil capitalist society. Stop whining and playing the victim. People don't realize they have the power, especially at this time. The financial industry is in ruins and is ripe to be taken advantage of. I love the credit card companies. They give you 0% for a year then you move on to the next one and theirs hundreds of them dying to give you their money. Pull your heads out people!

    Posted by HappyCamper09 at 09/23/2009 @ 06:22am

  125. i don't really care if mr. moore is relevant.----Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53pm

    Fine, but again...we seem to be agreeing on his "impact" on society, don't we?

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:25am

  126. BTW, I might acknowledge ONE bit of relevance...

    from Maasch/Jomama' "perverted" to Rio/Big Posture's "evil"....

    Moore DOES seem good at driving nutty right-wingers to distraction!

    LOL

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:26am

  127. Posted by darladoon at 09/23/2009 @ 01:35am

    I see the word 'true', like I do the word 'real'. What is true or real? There are true lies just as there real abstractions. Usually it all comes down to how the situation makes us feel. Some of us are more honest about our feelings than others. Doesn't make the feelings right. And so beyond that there are those of us that remember 'why' they react as they do and are consciously striving to do better than how they were taught by their social environment and time.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 08:16am

  128. Oh, me? I'm retired, thank you.

    But I just love coming by and seeing all the ernest righties go on and on about their little ideas. You know, posting here keeps them off the street and out of the bars -- and keeps them out of my grandchildren's schoolyard.

    Katrina actually started these comments sections so y'all would waste your time here rather than doing the work of your capitalist masters out in the real world.

    Do you think we really read most of your long-winded drivel?

    Yeah, we do. (Heh, heh.) No, I swear we do. (Snicker, snicker, snort...)

    Posted by barnesgene at 09/23/2009 @ 09:50am

  129. Frosty, do you have a minimum, in hours or pay, for getting gig? How many "wonders"? You use an agent? If so, what's his/her cut? Solo act?

    Posted by Happy at 09/22/2009 @ 11:29pm

    i play in bands of one to ten or more.

    no agent.

    a gig can pay anywhere between $0 to $400+ (happy new year!)

    in north america, i'm poor.

    on earth, i'm very, very wealthy.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2009 @ 11:54am

  130. Thank you Anti(everything?) for showing us the biggest problem for the right and left fanatics: Closed Mindedness! If you took off the blinders and investigated more than one side of an issue, we all might be better off. To dismiss something out of hand just because it may make you think is foolish and immature. Put down the kool-aid, turn off Fox and Rush, LISTEN to other points of view then use the brain God gave you to decide for yourself. It is called growing up. Are you affraid that you might be wrong on some issues? Don't be, after all your opinions really aren't your own. I know because I used to be a left version of you, anything from the right was BS. Once I started listening to their side I came to see that there was some validity to certain points they made. I am still considered a lefty by most but I no longer just cosign all the nonsense. I seek information from all sides and form my own opinions. Try it.

    Posted by jimeuf at 09/23/2009 @ 05:34am

    If you are a new blogger here, you are excused from such misinformation about me.

    1. I don't watch or listen to conservative media. Most of my "news" tv and radio comes from far left stations. KPFK radio (LA's Pacifica Station) and Free Speech TV (the radical left television station. I watch Amy Goodman (Democracy Now) every morning at 5am

    I have read and listened to for several years and on a monthly basis, Zinn, Chomsky, Greg Palast, Jeremy Scahill, Counterpunch, and a range of marxist, trotskyist, maoist, and socialist publications and websites. I may be more informed on radical leftist thought than many of the bloggers here.

    In 50 years of reading and research, I have enough intelligence to formulate my own views and opinions as a libertarian.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 12:21pm

  131. frosty zoom, what instrument do you play? Just curious, have a kid who plays the violin.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/23/2009 @ 12:27pm

  132. guitar and bass.

    typing's great for your chops.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/23/2009 @ 12:34pm

  133. Posted by barnesgene at 09/23/2009 @ 09:50am | ignore this person | warn this person

    I make liberal, pun intended, use of the ignore button, and I suggest everyone else do the same.

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:37pm

  134. Actually, I am irrelevant. Posted by Mask

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:40pm

  135. mr. moore's views are more relevant than any of ours. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53pm

    Now now, you may be right, but it's still unpleasant for some to hear...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 12:38am

    DOUBLE WHOA AND LORDY!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 12:49pm

  136. Actually, I am irrelevant. Posted by Mask

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    THIS IS THE MOST RELEVANT POST OF THE YEAR.

    ALSO THE MOST TRUTHFUL POST OR WORDS WRITTEN BY ANYONE ON THE NATION, EVER.

    Give JR the prize for the best post ..ever.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 12:51pm

  137. Posted by ficheye at 09/22/2009 @ 12:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    if that were true, Madoff would be on the talk shows instead of in prison.

    but it sounds nice, don't it?

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:52pm

  138. Will this be like the USSR in the 30's where it was illegal to change jobs?

    not just in the Ussr. here in america it was illegal to refuse to work for the measly wages offered. strikers were thrown in jail and shot by private and public cops.

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:56pm

  139. In 50 years of reading and research, I have enough intelligence to formulate my own views and opinions as a libertarian. Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009

    I must have hit a nerve. Funny how most "Libertarians" just echo the Neo-Con line on almost everything. Just another way of saying You support all their nonsense but don't want to take responsibility for it. Otherwise known as being intellectually and philisophically spineless. So how are you doing with that paranoia? Watch out for that red under your bed.

    Posted by jimeuf at 09/23/2009 @ 1:06pm

  140. Actually, I am irrelevant. Posted by Mask---Posted by emile duBois at 09/23/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Professor ROLF has me on Ignore....if you keep re-posting what I say, he will righteously smote thee and put you on Ignore too!

    You have been warned!.....LOL

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 1:19pm

  141. i don't really care if mr. moore is relevant.----Posted by frosty zoom at 09/22/2009 @ 10:53pm Fine, but again...we seem to be agreeing on his "impact" on society, don't we? Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:25am | ignore this person |

    --as in FAR GREATER than yours? yeah, we agree on that...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:22pm

  142. In 50 years of reading and research, I have enough intelligence to formulate my own views and opinions as a libertarian. Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009

    I must have hit a nerve. Funny how most "Libertarians" just echo the Neo-Con line on almost everything. Just another way of saying You support all their nonsense but don't want to take responsibility for it. Otherwise known as being intellectually and philisophically spineless. So how are you doing with that paranoia? Watch out for that red under your bed.

    Posted by jimeuf at 09/23/2009 @ 1:06pm

    Wow, such an intelligent response. Did your mommy spell the words for you or do you just cut and paste from the Daily Kos?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 1:22pm

  143. BTW, I might acknowledge ONE bit of relevance... from Maasch/Jomama' "perverted" to Rio/Big Posture's "evil".... Moore DOES seem good at driving nutty right-wingers to distraction! LOL

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:26am | ignore this person |

    --by that logic Beck, Hannity, Rush, O'Reilly et al are "good at driving nutty left-wingers to distraction!"

    LOL

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:24pm

  144. BTW, I might acknowledge ONE bit of relevance... from Maasch/Jomama' "perverted" to Rio/Big Posture's "evil".... Moore DOES seem good at driving nutty right-wingers to distraction! LOL

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:26am | ignore this person |

    --by that logic Beck, Hannity, Rush, O'Reilly et al are "good at driving nutty left-wingers to distraction!"

    LOL

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:24pm

    It's a deeeeeeep drive to centerfield, back, back, back, back, IT'S OUT OF HERE. HOME RUN FOR URMYGYRO

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 2:12pm

  145. Capitalism and Capitolism at its finest.

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/09/21 /tom-delay-dancing-with-th_n_294219.html

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 2:25pm

  146. BTW, I might acknowledge ONE bit of relevance... from Maasch/Jomama' "perverted" to Rio/Big Posture's "evil".... Moore DOES seem good at driving nutty right-wingers to distraction! LOL Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:26am | ignore this person | --by that logic Beck, Hannity, Rush, O'Reilly et al are "good at driving nutty left-wingers to distraction!" LOL Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:24pm It's a deeeeeeep drive to centerfield, back, back, back, back, IT'S OUT OF HERE. HOME RUN FOR URMYGYRO Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 2:12pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I'm not even giving myself credit...when the pitcher (Mask) throws an underhanded softball, I'm gonna swing!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 2:41pm

  147. Kewl frosty zoom, my son also plays guitar, must be the string thing.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/23/2009 @ 2:56pm

  148. NEW YORK (Reuters) - You wouldn't know it by his pay stubs, but Jiang Jianqing heads the world's largest bank.

    Jiang, chairman of Industrial and Commercial Bank of China, made just $234,700 in 2008. That's less than 2 percent of the $19.6 million awarded to Jamie Dimon, chief executive of the world's fourth-largest bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co.

    The contrast illustrates the massive differences in pay among the CEOs of the world's top banks. The compensation of the CEOs of the largest U.S. banks towers above what's paid to banking chiefs in other parts of the world, according to a Reuters analysis of pay at the 18 biggest banks by market value.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 2:59pm

  149. hsubfools--what do banking cheifs who live in Europe make?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 3:05pm

  150. The contrast illustrates the massive differences in pay among the CEOs of the world's top banks. The compensation of the CEOs of the largest U.S. banks towers above what's paid to banking chiefs in other parts of the world, according to a Reuters analysis of pay at the 18 biggest banks by market value.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 2:59pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Another difference is that in China, they actually prosecute white collar criminals. Remember the pet food contamination scandal? Definite disincentive for bad behavior.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:11pm

  151. Ratio of CEO to factory worker pay

    Belgium 18-to-1

    France 23-to-1

    Germany 20-to-1

    Italy 26-to-1

    Netherlands 18-to-1

    Spain 17-to-1

    Sweden 19-to-1

    Switzerland 19-to-1

    U.K. 32-to-1

    USA 39-to-1

    USA Today. Average CEO pay 2005 Europe. This includes all sectors.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm

  152. It's a deeeeeeep drive to centerfield, back, back, back, back, IT'S OUT OF HERE. HOME RUN FOR URMYGYRO

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 2:12pm

    LOL!!!!!!!!!!

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 3:27pm

  153. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm

    What are the earnings or profits for all these banks in all these countrys, before,during, and after the govt caused failures?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 3:29pm

  154. Another difference is that in China, they actually prosecute white collar criminals. Remember the pet food contamination scandal? Definite disincentive for bad behavior.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:11pm

    True...the guy who poisoned people with tainted painted toys for export...was executed.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 3:31pm

  155. Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 2:12pm

    Illogical though, Larry. He claims I am a devoted fan of those chaps....yet by that statement (your "homerun") he MUST include me as a "left-winger driven to distraction by them."

    BTW, by that standard ....I must drive you and urmy to distraction, huh? He can't resist me and you just blew your "I have Mask on Ignore" pose over at the Harris-Lacewell thread.....heheh

    Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 3:38pm

  156. What are the earnings or profits for all these banks in all these countrys, before,during, and after the govt caused failures?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 3:29pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Do know that Forbes in 2005 reported top 10 CEO pay in US. Included in that top ten were 3 financials including Lehman and Countrywide. Of course, Lehman and Countrywide are gone.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:44pm

  157. True...the guy who poisoned people with tainted painted toys for export...was executed.

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/23/2009 @ 3:31pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Make that "guys" as in plural.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:46pm

  158. Ratio of CEO to factory worker pay Belgium 18-to-1 France 23-to-1 Germany 20-to-1 Italy 26-to-1 Netherlands 18-to-1 Spain 17-to-1 Sweden 19-to-1 Switzerland 19-to-1 U.K. 32-to-1 USA 39-to-1 USA Today. Average CEO pay 2005 Europe. This includes all sectors. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --those others seem very high too

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 4:36pm

  159. Mask: "Illogical though, Larry. He claims I am a devoted fan of those chaps....yet by that statement (your "homerun") he MUST include me as a "left-winger driven to distraction by them.""

    --how's that illogical? that's exactly what I'm saying you are. look at Mask, trying to weasel out of being pinned down again!

    Mask: "BTW, by that standard ....I must drive you and urmy to distraction, huh? He can't resist me and you just blew your "I have Mask on Ignore" pose over at the Harris-Lacewell thread.....heheh"

    --by your standard, Happy, YourJommama, etc must "drive you and other liberal posters here to distraction" huh?

    OWNED!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 4:39pm

  160. --those others seem very high too

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 4:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Not exactly "egalitarian"....lol........

    and many of these EuroCeo's were using the US as an example of "fair pay" while pushing for Reaganization (economic liberalism in Euro speak).

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:04pm

  161. BTW, I might acknowledge ONE bit of relevance... from Maasch/Jomama' "perverted" to Rio/Big Posture's "evil".... Moore DOES seem good at driving nutty right-wingers to distraction! LOL Posted by Mask at 09/23/2009 @ 07:26am | ignore this person | --by that logic Beck, Hannity, Rush, O'Reilly et al are "good at driving nutty left-wingers to distraction!" LOL Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:24pm It's a deeeeeeep drive to centerfield, back, back, back, back, IT'S OUT OF HERE. HOME RUN FOR URMYGYRO Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009 @ 2:12pm

    That is not logic, that's a drive for asymmetrical equilibrium using dissimilar situations.

    It's like saying because a portion of the people were mad/happy at an assassin, so too a similar portion should be mad/happy at a war hero. Those that are happy about an assassin we label extremist, as well those that are mad at the war hero. You're essentially saying that to extremists assassins are equivalent to heros. And considering the new con repubs numbers may be down to only 18% of the US and falling, being labeled fringe-- defending the fringe-- and attempting to create balance where clearly there is none, makes perfect sense.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 6:17pm

  162. Ratio of CEO to factory worker pay Belgium 18-to-1 France 23-to-1 Germany 20-to-1 Italy 26-to-1 Netherlands 18-to-1 Spain 17-to-1 Sweden 19-to-1 Switzerland 19-to-1 U.K. 32-to-1 USA 39-to-1 USA Today. Average CEO pay 2005 Europe. This includes all sectors. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm

    I don't see why there can't be a simple formula like say mid-management make 2:1 ratio earnings, directors in between mid-management and the CEO make 3:1 to 4:1, and the CEO 5:1. Depending how well the workers do would depend on the production quality and quantity and thus determining the CEOs income ratio-wise as well. As it now is-- the only equation determining earnings for a CEO, is whatever the CEO can get away with.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 6:26pm

  163. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 6:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    I believe that in some European countries, it has been limited to 30:1 by law.

    Note - the ratio of pay for salary. When you factor in all the stock options, perks, expense account, etc., the ratio becomes astronomical - some CEO's really being compensated at a ratio of what - like 300:1.

    Not only is the CEO screwing the employees, the CEO is screwing the shareholders.

    All corporations should be required by law to hold special session full voting by all shareholders (not proxy shareholders) on the issue of officer pay. I guarantee you CEO pay will go down....way down.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:55pm

  164. That is not logic, that's a drive for asymmetrical equilibrium using dissimilar situations. It's like saying because a portion of the people were mad/happy at an assassin, so too a similar portion should be mad/happy at a war hero. Those that are happy about an assassin we label extremist, as well those that are mad at the war hero. You're essentially saying that to extremists assassins are equivalent to heros. And considering the new con repubs numbers may be down to only 18% of the US and falling, being labeled fringe-- defending the fringe-- and attempting to create balance where clearly there is none, makes perfect sense. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 6:17pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --that (above) is not logic...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:41pm

  165. Ratio of CEO to factory worker pay Belgium 18-to-1 France 23-to-1 Germany 20-to-1 Italy 26-to-1 Netherlands 18-to-1 Spain 17-to-1 Sweden 19-to-1 Switzerland 19-to-1 U.K. 32-to-1 USA 39-to-1 USA Today. Average CEO pay 2005 Europe. This includes all sectors. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm I don't see why there can't be a simple formula like say mid-management make 2:1 ratio earnings, directors in between mid-management and the CEO make 3:1 to 4:1, and the CEO 5:1. Depending how well the workers do would depend on the production quality and quantity and thus determining the CEOs income ratio-wise as well. As it now is-- the only equation determining earnings for a CEO, is whatever the CEO can get away with. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 6:26pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --so you want the u.s. to enforce private business from earning...yikes!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:44pm

  166. --so you want the u.s. to enforce private business from earning...yikes!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    whats the old saying - spare the rod - spoil the child.

    or

    child developmental specialists indicating the children actually want and need discipline, and they will love and respect for it.

    Tough love is the best love.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:24pm

  167. whats the old saying - spare the rod - spoil the child. or child developmental specialists indicating the children actually want and need discipline, and they will love and respect for it. Tough love is the best love. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 8:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --from the same gov't that's willing to torture?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 8:27pm

  168. --that (above) is not logic... Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:41pm

    Because you can't explain how it isn't? No, again that's your lacking the capacity to use logic.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 8:52pm

  169. --so you want the u.s. to enforce private business from earning...yikes! Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:44pm

    It's not preventing earning, it's regulating it. But again someone capable of logic could discern that conclusion.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 8:57pm

  170. I guarantee you CEO pay will go down....way down. Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 6:55pm

    And perhaps there'd be funding for employees to afford better preventative healthcare and the company might even have enough capitol to weather economical down turns... by being really (in the true sense of the word) 'conservative'!!!!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 9:07pm

  171. --that (above) is not logic... Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:41pm Because you can't explain how it isn't? No, again that's your lacking the capacity to use logic. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 8:52pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --yeah, you go on a tangent with a nonsensical comparison and I'm the one who has to disprove your nonsense?

    --I used Mask's logic against him in the precise way he uses it against others. You're going to argue (wrongly) that I didn't because you don't like me, not because I'm wrong.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:34pm

  172. --so you want the u.s. to enforce private business from earning...yikes! Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 7:44pm It's not preventing earning, it's regulating it. But again someone capable of logic could discern that conclusion. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 8:57pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I know you probably pat yourself on the back every time you accuse someone of not having (your) logic...but that doesn't make your "logic" correct.

    --You said straightforwardly you want earnings limited. You can call it "regulation" if you want, but you'd be preventing business from earning.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

  173. Ratio of CEO to factory worker pay

    Belgium 18-to-1

    France 23-to-1

    Germany 20-to-1

    Italy 26-to-1

    Netherlands 18-to-1

    Spain 17-to-1

    Sweden 19-to-1

    Switzerland 19-to-1

    U.K. 32-to-1

    USA 39-to-1

    USA Today. Average CEO pay 2005 Europe. This includes all sectors.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 3:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    The real intresting part is that the GDP of all those countries in totality might be close to the U.S.A.'s as will be the total number of their workers! No wonder their pay is so much lower.

    Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm

  174. but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    From earning more, isn't from earning nothing. I'd say 99.9% of the people would understand that. That you do not means it's your logic that's faulty. But then again you have faulty logic so it's logical that you would misunderstand that....

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 11:25pm

  175. Total Europe $22 trillion

    EuroUnion $18.40 trillion

    US $13.84 trillion

    2008

    EuroUnion population = 500 million

    US population = 304,000 million

    Euro = $36,800 per capita

    USA = $45,526 per capita

    Euro about 80% of US per capita.

    Too lazy to do the math, but of the Euro heavy hitters referenced previously, I am betting that you are right that total GDP and population are relatively equivalent to US. Swiss GDP/capita is highest - better than US; France about $38,000 per capita, and Germany about $36,000 per capita.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/23/2009 @ 11:44pm

  176. --I used Mask's logic against him Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:34pm

    What you used was not logic.

    That one is marginalized by some on the left, is not equivalent to the other being threatening to most on what's remaining of the right.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 12:31am

  177. Posted by BigPasture at 09/23/2009 @ 11:14pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    And, lets no forget per capita GDP doesn't tell the whole story....

    'While most developed European nations and Canada tend to have Gini indices between 24 and 36, the United States' and Mexico's Gini indices are both above 40, indicating that the United States and Mexico have greater inequality. Using the Gini can help quantify differences in welfare and compensation policies and philosophies. However it should be borne in mind that the Gini coefficient can be misleading when used to make political comparisons between large and small countries (see criticisms section).

    The Gini index for the entire world has been estimated by various parties to be between 56 and 66.[4][5]'

    Wiki

    US Gini Index in 2007 was 45 - not very good at all compared to Europe.

    Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 12:45am

  178. but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    From earning more, isn't from earning nothing. I'd say 99.9% of the people would understand that. That you do not means it's your logic that's faulty. But then again you have faulty logic so it's logical that you would misunderstand that....

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/23/2009 @ 11:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --"preventing business from earning" does mean preventing from earning more, 99.9% of people would understand that; but with your one-track mind and "logic" you think it only means shutting businesses down completely.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:15am

  179. --I used Mask's logic against him Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:34pm

    What you used was not logic.

    That one is marginalized by some on the left, is not equivalent to the other being threatening to most on what's remaining of the right.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 12:31am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --you don't get it; because your logic bone is obviously broken. Mask claimed Moore is good at driving conservative posters at The Nation to distraction (because they talk about him a lot). I told Mask, Rush, Beck et al must bee good at driving liberal posters at the nation to distraction (because they talk about him a lot).

    --Your dislike of me is creating a blindspot for you...the logic is clear as day. But please, make yourself look silly and say how this doesn't make sense...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:20am

  180. you think it only means shutting businesses down completely. Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:15am

    but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    Have you been examined for schizophrenia? Or do you simply have two months on either side of your face?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 07:56am

  181. -Your dislike of me is creating a blindspot for you... Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:20am

    No blind spot there and whether you're annoying being a new con repub apologist isn't relevant if you're simply wrong. Might you have a persecution complex perhaps? Could you be capable of arguing your position if you didn't have the persecution complex?

    Ok one more time, I'll try this to see if the breaks through-- saying that faux spews 24/7 tv/radio stations' distortion is equivalent to one man is in itself asymmetrical, but then to limit it further to a much smaller segment of the extremist population than the next, makes it more so, not less.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 08:24am

  182. --- If we spend it on gasoline it goes to the Arabs. Posted by OneVote at 09/22/2009 @ 11:43am

    Whatever percentage that is considering the majority of gasoline exported to the US comes from Canada.

    Posted by jwas at 09/24/2009 @ 08:25am

  183. er, ha:

    you think it only means shutting businesses down completely. Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:15am

    but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    Have you been examined for schizophrenia? Or do you simply have two 'mouths' on either side of your face?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 07:56am

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 08:26am

  184. Wow, such an intelligent response. Did your mommy spell the words for you or do you just cut and paste from the Daily Kos?

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/23/2009

    I am really disappointed with this response, I had come to expect more from such a well read adversary. I may have to find another righty to play with, if you keep this up. I know it is hard reading this post all day but try a little harder. You are better than that. Why do you think I picked you out of all the rightwing nut jobs here? You showed some hope of brain power. Pick it up please.

    Posted by jimeuf at 09/24/2009 @ 08:32am

  185. Whatever percentage that is considering the majority of gasoline exported to the US comes from Canada.

    Posted by jwas at 09/24/2009 @ 08:25am | ignore this person | warn this person

    Can't vouch for Spitzer's research...lol...

    Is Canada a foreign country?

    Posted by OneVote at 09/24/2009 @ 10:52am

  186. you think it only means shutting businesses down completely. Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:15am

    but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    Have you been examined for schizophrenia? Or do you simply have two months on either side of your face?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 07:56am

    --you don't see that preventing business from earning doesn't only mean shutting them down completely? your logic bone is broken!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 11:56am

  187. -Your dislike of me is creating a blindspot for you... Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:20am

    No blind spot there and whether you're annoying being a new con repub apologist isn't relevant if you're simply wrong. Might you have a persecution complex perhaps? Could you be capable of arguing your position if you didn't have the persecution complex?

    Ok one more time, I'll try this to see if the breaks through-- saying that faux spews 24/7 tv/radio stations' distortion is equivalent to one man is in itself asymmetrical, but then to limit it further to a much smaller segment of the extremist population than the next, makes it more so, not less.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 08:24am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --your ad hominem reliance is extremely strong evidence that you're not quite so smart as you give yourself credit for...

    --you are creating an entirely different situation than what I said. Again, slowly this time because your logic doesn't appear to be working: Mask said the right's obsession with Moore is driving them to distraction. You know what Mask does all day? Talks about Rush, Beck et al. He is equally driven to distraction...you'll get it sometime...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 11:59am

  188. Mask said the right's obsession with Moore is driving them to distraction. You know what Mask does all day? Talks about Rush, Beck et al. He is equally driven to distraction...you'll get it sometime... Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 11:59am

    --by that logic Beck, Hannity, Rush, O'Reilly et al are "good at driving nutty left-wingers to distraction!" LOL Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 1:24pm

    _______+_______

    you think it only means shutting businesses down completely. Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 06:15am

    but you'd be preventing business from earning. Posted by urmygyro at 09/23/2009 @ 10:37pm

    _______=________

    dis·in·gen·u·ous (dsn-jny-s) adj.

    1. Not straightforward or candid; insincere or calculating

    2. Pretending to be unaware or unsophisticated; faux-naïf.

    3. Usage Problem Unaware or uninformed; naive.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 3:35pm

  189. hsubfools--keep going the circuitous route, it's working wonders for you! I'll keep going the direct route, straight to what's actually happening, rather than creating analogies in a pitiful effort to "disprove" a a straightforward, apples-to-apples comparison.

    fix your logic bone!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 4:28pm

  190. fix your logic bone! Posted by urmygyro at 09/24/2009 @ 4:28pm

    Why, you're the one that's either mentally impotent or simply disingenuous. Either way, it's your problem. It's best to accept it, then you may be able to get help.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/24/2009 @ 5:03pm

  191. Michael Moore is right about capitalism -- but he's wrong about the solution

    Democracy is a political system that cannot and will not make better the system of capitalism. To get rid of the ills of capitalism, the world needs real radical change and a whole new system: socialism and communism.

    If this movie moved you to want to know more and to get into a critical debate about the future of humanity and the fact that there is a viable and desirable alternative – that is socialism and communism – then you need to tune into an amazing evening with the Maoist political economist Raymond Lotta. "Behind the World Economic Crisis: System Failure and the Need for Revolution" will be a live Web cast on Sept. 29 at 7:30 p.m. EDT For details go to http://revolutionbooksnyc.org

    Posted by rubym307 at 09/28/2009 @ 7:28pm

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» The Beat

Facing Bipartisan Criticism, RNC's Steele Asks If Race Is Factor | "Why? Is it because Michael Steele is the chairman, or is it because a black man is chairman?” he wonders. Maybe he could compare notes with Obama.
John Nichols
Posted at 8:46 PM ET

» Editor's Cut

New Web Column at The Washington Post | Every Tuesday, I'll be featuring progressive thinking about politics and challenging the Right in my new web column for The Washington Post. Read my first one here.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
31 Comments

» The Notion

When Snow Melts: Vancouver’s Olympic Crackdown | Anger is growing in Vancouver in advance of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Like Olympic clockwork, here comes the media crackdown.
Dave Zirin
42 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

The Mind-Boggling Stupidity of Michael Rubin | How an AEI apparatchik's love affair for Ahmed Chalabi blinds him to Chalabi's pro-Iran treachery.
Robert Dreyfuss
27 Comments

» Act Now!

Demand Question Time | Join the call for the President and Congress to implement regular Question Time sessions.
Peter Rothberg
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» And Another Thing

How to Counterbalance Focus on the Family on Superbowl Sunday | Give to help low income girls and women.
Katha Pollitt
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» Altercation

Slacker Friday | James O'Keefe and Alter-reviews.
Eric Alterman