The Notion

The No-Shame Zone

posted by Eyal Press on 09/15/2009 @ 10:47am

On the day after the one-year anniversary of Lehman Brothers' collapse, I find myself wishing every American could gather this evening for a screening at 209 West Houston – home to the great independent movie theater Film Forum, which for the past two weeks has been showing "American Casino," a bracing new documentary by Leslie and Andrew Cockburn about the subprime mortgage meltdown. The film is admittedly not a lot of fun to watch. What it inspires instead is rage: at the officials (Alan Greenspan, Phil Gramm) who trumpeted the virtues of financial deregulation; at ratings agencies that pretended to scrutinize whether mortgage-backed bonds being sold and resold were trustworthy (while actually handing the job to the banks that were paying them); at financiers who kept repackaging the mortgage-backed junk into inscrutable financial instruments; at predatory lenders who deliberately targeted low-income minority communities that are now awash in foreclosures.

The most amazing thing to me about the film was the utter lack of remorse expressed by the people who conspired to create the mess. The closest we come to an apology is a half-hearted admission from former Fed Chairman Alan Greenspan, who is shown telling Congress he was "shocked" that allowing large, unaccountable financial institutions to pursue their self-interests might cause problems. But nobody seems to be genuinely sorry. The people who made money from selling the junk kept it. The banks that profited so handsomely proceeded to get bailed out. The communities preyed on by predatory lenders are now full of boarded-up buildings and foreclosed homes. And, as The Times reported this weekend, bonuses and pay on Wall Street have gone right back to pre-crisis levels.

Is it too much to expect people who become millionaires by knowingly deceiving their fellow citizens to feel some measure of responsibility and shame?

Comments (151)

  1. EP: "Is it too much to expect people who become millionaires by knowingly deceiving their fellow citizens to feel some measure of responsibility and shame?"

    --why would someone who knowingly deceives feel responsibility or shame? if they felt responsibility or shame, they wouldn't knowingly deceive in the first place.

    --and the question going forward is: will obama use the power of his office to start holding people accountable, or will it be business as usual (with some speeches and photo-ops to make it seem like real "change" is happening)?....color me "surprised" if it ends out being the latter...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 10:54am

  2. Who is our 'leader' again? Does ACORN have anything to do with unqualified people being given mortgages that they had no right to have? Let the investigation begin. This is way bigger than Watergate. I don't care who goes down. This corruption has got to be cleaned up before another dollar of taxpayers money is spent. No wonder people who never paid attention are rising up in the form of the Tea Party. The fun has just begun.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 11:00am

  3. gunslinger1--make sure NOT to mention Chris Dodd (one of my state's U.S. senators) or Barney Frank--they are INNOCENT!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:01am

  4. 'No wonder people who never paid attention are rising up in the form of the Tea Party.'

    Logically so, "gunslinger1." Nobody who has paid any attention to anything for the last 40 years can be ignorant enough to join that jolly club of reality deniers.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:06am

  5. And yesterday & today in the NYTimes we're treated to interviews with 6 former Lehman players, 5 of whom feel sorry for themselves, and one of whom got out early (laid off), shorted Lehman & doesn't give a damn about the losers anywhere.

    No shame, no sorrow, lots of self-pity & self-justification.

    Sense of responsibility? For what? They are responsible only for amassing as much $$$ as they can; anything else is a shmuck's game, in their eyes, still.

    Posted by sloper at 09/15/2009 @ 11:09am

  6. Logically so, "gunslinger1." Nobody who has paid any attention to anything for the last 40 years can be ignorant enough to join that jolly club of reality deniers.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:06am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I give them a better shot at retaining the status quo via health care than people like me who want universal health care getting what I want. Obama's not playing for my team ("I have no intention of putting health insurance companies out of business").

    --Also, war protesters, such as, I don't know, all the people protesting the invasion of Iraq in 2003, haven't paid attention to how our gov't works when it comes to wanting to drop bombs in foreign places, right? damn "reality deniers"!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:10am

  7. Sense of responsibility? For what? They are responsible only for amassing as much $$$ as they can; anything else is a shmuck's game, in their eyes, still.

    Posted by sloper at 09/15/2009 @ 11:09am | ignore this person |

    --sadly, I think Obama sees regulating them; and making serious "change" to how the game is played, is a "shmuck's game" too..

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:12am

  8. Yes, by all means let us go after ACORN!!

    They are far more culpable than the people that actually asked for the rules they got passed by congress, both dems and repubs. But, let's be honest, who was the ranking member of the Banking Committee when this stuff was passed? Is it the guy that said "mental recession"? Methinks so. And let us not leave out those that hate government, think regulation has no business in a market environment and find no fault with those that take massive salaries while screwing the tax payer (while moaning about paying taxes).

    Talk about not having shame!

    Lastly, let us not forget to blame those that took out interest only loans they had no business getting approval for, and those that willingly, gladly, with smiles and handshakes all around, lent the money.

    Thanks Ya'll. If only we lived in a Christian country where greed was frowned upon. But no, that would be telling people how to live, and we cannot have that.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:15am

  9. crabwalk...and the dems won't claim any responsibility either...and the wheels on the bus will go round and round...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:19am

  10. Off topic alert!!

    Students NEED to carry guns. How else would they be able to defend themselves?

    http://tinyurl.com/qf67g9

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:22am

  11. Off topic!---you're lucky this ain't peter rothberg's column!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:23am

  12. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:10am

    Hey, urmy...you really think your "I'm for universal health care" throwaway provides you all the CYA you need to not be pegged as just another right-wing poster at "TN" given EVERYTHING ELSE you post?

    Honestly curious.

    Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 11:23am

  13. Thanks Ya'll. If only we lived in a Christian country where greed was frowned upon. But no, that would be telling people how to live, and we cannot have that.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:15am

    Well said.

    Can someone tell me what ACORN has to do with the financial debacle? Is it possible that they are being used as a scapegoat by the libertarian/republican crowd who want to use misdirection instead of addressing the real problem... greed that masquerades as free-market capitalism?

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 11:28am

  14. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:19am

    Vote Nader!

    Oh, wait, that would be "wasting" ones vote.

    If The Supremes vote the way I expect on the "Hillary" case, we simple citizens are royally screwed anyway. Just look at the fiasco corporations are making of the health care debate. Most people recognize BIG change is needed in the way we supply medical services, but to hear the insurance lobby (that would be you Ms. Palin, Mr Baucus) tell it, we just need slight little meaningless changes and it will fix the issues of the uncovered, the overcharged and the 10-15% annual increases.

    If the courts allow corporate entities to give unlimited amounts to candidates and their campaigns, our republic is DOA.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:28am

  15. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:10am Hey, urmy...you really think your "I'm for universal health care" throwaway provides you all the CYA you need to not be pegged as just another right-wing poster at "TN" given EVERYTHING ELSE you post? Honestly curious.

    Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 11:23am | ignore this person |

    --calling it a "throw-away" is the rhetoric of champions! I'm for it...plain and simple...health insurance companies have to go...and Obama's "take it slow" plan won't ever accomplish the changes that are needed...but go ahead and keep genuflecting...which segues to...

    just b/c I don't kiss democrats' butts (i.e., buy into "but they're the lesser of two evils, so whatever they do is ok" theory you buy into) doesn't mean I'm for republicans...I know this is too far over your head to understand (not surprising from a guy who listens to Rush, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly all day...and is thus OWNED by them...heheh).

    and your "honestly curious" line is not honest itself--you continually call me something I'm not. I'm quite likely the most liberal commenter here--and the democrats are essentially republican-lite (throwing a bone to progressives/true liberals every once in a while with some "social" issue; but essentially being the same as "repugs" when it comes to war/big business...just ask your buddy frosty zoom (whom you rarely if ever question, even though he believes the same things I do)...

    next...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:31am

  16. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:10am Hey, urmy...you really think your "I'm for universal health care" throwaway provides you all the CYA you need to not be pegged as just another right-wing poster at "TN" given EVERYTHING ELSE you post? Honestly curious.

    Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 11:23am | ignore this person |

    --calling it a "throw-away" is the rhetoric of champions! I'm for it...plain and simple...health insurance companies have to go...and Obama's "take it slow" plan won't ever accomplish the changes that are needed...but go ahead and keep genuflecting...which segues to...

    just b/c I don't kiss democrats' butts (i.e., buy into "but they're the lesser of two evils, so whatever they do is ok" theory you buy into) doesn't mean I'm for republicans...I know this is too far over your head to understand (not surprising from a guy who listens to Rush, Beck, Hannity, O'Reilly all day...and is thus OWNED by them...heheh).

    and your "honestly curious" line is not honest itself--you continually call me something I'm not. I'm quite likely the most liberal commenter here--and the democrats are essentially republican-lite (throwing a bone to progressives/true liberals every once in a while with some "social" issue; but essentially being the same as "repugs" when it comes to war/big business...just ask your buddy frosty zoom (whom you rarely if ever question, even though he believes the same things I do)...

    next...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:32am

  17. crabwalk: "Vote Nader!"

    --oh no!...then the democrats' Maskerade would blame me!

    crabwalk: "Oh, wait, that would be "wasting" ones vote."

    --incumbency is king! dems...repubs...tomato...tomahto

    crabwalk: "If The Supremes vote the way I expect on the "Hillary" case, we simple citizens are royally screwed anyway. Just look at the fiasco corporations are making of the health care debate. Most people recognize BIG change is needed in the way we supply medical services, but to hear the insurance lobby (that would be you Ms. Palin, Mr Baucus) tell it, we just need slight little meaningless changes and it will fix the issues of the uncovered, the overcharged and the 10-15% annual increases."

    --no, real "change" is coming...obama will deliver! just ask Mask...it's a "slow process"...be patient America...the right thing will be delivered eventually...get enough gutless democrat presidents in a row and maybe in 50 years a mediocre "public option" will turn into "single payer"...and then...wait for it...universal health care some time down the line...

    crabwalk: "If the courts allow corporate entities to give unlimited amounts to candidates and their campaigns, our republic is DOA."

    --the incumbents (dems and republicans) won't let campaign finance "reform" ever happen...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:37am

  18. As for ACORN, all the alleged misdemeanors of this organization amount to peanuts compared to the good that it does. The recent "sting" films funded by the Fox "News" Corp are outdated and show us workers who were duly fired.

    If you want to obsess about something, wonder about what the banks are doing with their billions of government bailout dollars - without any guidance, regulation, or strings attached. (Nice segue back to the topic of the thread, don'tcha think?)

    My remedy for the "shamelessness" to which Eyal Press alludes is simply to restore the laws that were once there. Give us back the New Deal. That was the last set of decent laws that successfully regulated the banks. Let's have the New Deal back.

    This is a VERY modest proposal.

    It involves simply the rescinding of every stupid act of deregulation perpetrated by both parties in Congress over the last 45 years. This was nothing but a colossal experiment pursuing the question: Wouldn't it be cheaper to let our financial system regulate itself, rather than pay the government to do it?

    It should be obvious to us all that the answer to this question is NO. Or do we need yet another multi-billion-dollar bailout to prove it?

    So let's undo all those bad laws - in a single omnibus bill that simply sweeps the slate clear of them. Restore Glass-Steagall. Abolish derivatives, credit-default swaps, and every other kind of funny paper designed over the last 45 years to enable financial insiders to dupe their customers, including each other. Reject the stupid and expensive idea that banks can "grow out of" their bankruptcies. Make Fannie Mae once again what it was originally, a nonprofit corporation with the single purpose of helping people to finance the purchase of their first home.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:41am

  19. heads up all The Nation writers/bloggers--Mask and some other anonymous commenters have made it clear that they believe if you question/criticize Obama or any Democrats you are a "right-winger" ... you're ON NOTICE!...fall in line or be prepared to have an untrue label slapped on ya!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:47am

  20. JakobFabian--I agree with your 11:41 post completely...will the Democrat President and the Democrat filibuster-proof majority grow the balls necessary to put it into action?...

    unlike when Mask asks it, it's an honest question.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:50am

  21. People distrust you, "urmygyro," because all you do is complain. Your criticism isn't constructive. It consists of blaming other people, most frequently high-ranking officials in the Democratic Party, for our common predicament, which is fine, but what are YOU doing about it?

    What exactly do you propose should be done, concretely, to fight the evils that we deplore?

    At least "crabwalk" advises voting for Ralph Nader - and endures the criticism that this is impractical.

    For my part, I agree with the late, great Molly Ivins and argue that voting for Nader is eminently pragmatic - provided that a progressive Democrat like Feingold or Kucinich is either sure to win or has no chance to win in your district.

    Goodness knows I love complaining, too, but I believe there comes a time at which we have to start talking about progressive solutions, or all our complaining becomes only so much background music for the Tea Parties.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:53am

  22. dupe their customers, including each other.

    yes indeed. they were fleecing the rubes by selling magic beans. after a while, when they saw the rubes were actually making money with the magic beans, they threw caution to the wind and started buying the magic beans themselves. the rest is... well you know.

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/15/2009 @ 11:55am

  23. JacobFabian: "People distrust you, "urmygyro," because all you do is complain."

    --correction: people don't like me because I question and criticize Obama and the democrats...who are in power...the republicans are meaningless now, yet I'm supposed to focus on them?

    JacobFabian: "Your criticism isn't constructive. It consists of blaming other people, most frequently high-ranking officials in the Democratic Party, for our common predicament, which is fine, but what are YOU doing about it?"

    --what is anyone here "doing about it"? how is any anonymous commenter here being "constructive"? So the sniping about "Magic Negro" by Mask is constructive huh? His constant harping on the right-wing media is "constructive" huh? what's he "doing about it"? please. the people in power need to do something about it; the guy I helped elect needs to do something about it. this is a place to anonymously comment (supposedly "on topic" to what's written in the blog above)...

    JakobFabian: "What exactly do you propose should be done, concretely, to fight the evils that we deplore?"

    --the President and Democrats in Congress, especially in the Senate, need to stop being like the republicans/conservatives they criticize and say they are "different" from when they are running for office.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:59am

  24. "At least "crabwalk" advises voting for Ralph Nader - and endures the criticism that this is impractical. "

    Slightly more impractical than voting for Obama, (which I did with nose firmly clamped shut) who shares the same campaign coffers as The Other Guy/Gal.

    I voted for Nader twice, maybe you guys voted for Gore and Kerry. Did you get the laws changes you want? did you get anything close?

    I do have to admit, again, that I took astounding amounts of pleasure from filling in the little circle next to the guy named "...Hussein...". A black guy with a single mom that lived the American Dream and even overcame the sludge-for-brains 30%ers that are more worried about ACORN than AIG.

    Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 12:00pm

  25. Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:06am

    No, I don't agree with that. I think that people generally are too busy living their lives and working two or three jobs and trying to send their kids to college to have time for activism. I do believe that events of say the last fifteen to twenty years have stirred interest though.

    We've had The Contract With America, Hillarycare, Monica, Impeachment, Terrorism, 9/11, Iraq, Afghanistan and of course the election of Obama. Add to that the internet and times have indeed changed. Before that we had Vietnam, Watergate and Iran-Contra and the savings and loan debacle. People are outraged that government as a whole is largely corrupt and irresponsible and they want change, but not Obama's kind of change. The election in 2010 is going to be very interesting.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 12:02pm

  26. JakobFabian: "At least "crabwalk" advises voting for Ralph Nader - and endures the criticism that this is impractical."

    --good for crabwalk! I voted for Obama. If I want to criticize and question whether he's really living up to what he promised he would be when he ran--this isn't an appropriate forum to do so?

    JakobFabian: "For my part, I agree with the late, great Molly Ivins and argue that voting for Nader is eminently pragmatic - provided that a progressive Democrat like Feingold or Kucinich is either sure to win or has no chance to win in your district."

    --doesn't sound like a very "gutsy" vote when you include everything you included after "provided..."

    JakobFabian: "Goodness knows I love complaining, too, but I believe there comes a time at which we have to start talking about progressive solutions, or all our complaining becomes only so much background music for the Tea Parties."

    --so no more complaining everyone--you hear?...I'm sure Mask will stop complaining about the right-wing media! To borrow from emiledubois: "who died and made you board moderator"?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 12:04pm

  27. dupe their customers, including each other. yes indeed. they were fleecing the rubes by selling magic beans. after a while, when they saw the rubes were actually making money with the magic beans, they threw caution to the wind and started buying the magic beans themselves. the rest is... well you know. Posted by emile duBois at 09/15/2009 @ 11:55am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --this post sounds like a COMPLAINT...no jacob?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 12:06pm

  28. Amusing to see that, in the finest tradition of the anti business, anti profit extreme liberal types, the anniversary of a business failure is remembered with gusto! They probably can't remember when Christmas is or what its for, but they can remember the diabolical CEO's of Lehman brothers!

    Posted by CHIP THORNTON at 09/15/2009 @ 12:06pm

  29. Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:15am

    When I say go after ACORN, I'm not referring to these morons who fell into the video trap, I'm talking about the people who are advocating that ACORN does not open it's books. Eight former members of ACORN's board were let go because they thought they saw nothing wrong with opening the books to auditors. Now, why do you think that ACORN would not want to open their books? They do get gobs of taxpayers money you know. Aren't YOU curious?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 12:06pm

  30. Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 11:28am

    Possibly, but doubtful. They were caught red-handed several times now and the A-Bomb will be dropped tonight at five on Fox by Glenn Beck.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 12:08pm

  31. Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:15am When I say go after ACORN, I'm not referring to these morons who fell into the video trap, I'm talking about the people who are advocating that ACORN does not open it's books. Eight former members of ACORN's board were let go because they thought they saw nothing wrong with opening the books to auditors. Now, why do you think that ACORN would not want to open their books? They do get gobs of taxpayers money you know. Aren't YOU curious? Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 12:06pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --be careful gunslinger; jacob doesn't want anymore "complaining"!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 12:09pm

  32. "ACORN Housing Corporation received $1.6 million to provide housing services to low-income communities in this fiscal year, ending Sept. 30, according to USASpending.gov, a federal government Web site for tracking government grants.

    The Department of Housing and Urban Development Grants has given $8.2 million to ACORN in the years between 2003 and 2006, as well as $1.6million to ACORN affiliates."

    •••••••••••••••

    "TARP Inspector General Says Total Cost Of Wall Street Bailout Could Top $23 TRILLION!

    "The total potential federal government support could reach up to $23.7 trillion," says Neil Barofsky, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program, in a new report obtained Monday by ABC News on the government's efforts to fix the financial system."

    HMMMMMMMMMMM..........

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/15/2009 @ 12:18pm

  33. the A-Bomb will be dropped tonight at five on Fox by Glenn Beck. Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/15/2009 @ 12:08pm

    Sorry... I'll be waiting for the report, but Beck is a master of disinformation. I can't take anything he says as serious.

    As far as ACORN goes, I'm curious about why you feel they are so relevant when there are financial institutions out there who deserve far more scrutiny. Not that they don't deserve scrutiny, mind you... I just think that they are way down the list.

    I'm hoping that you were joking about Glenn Beck. In my opinion he's a lunatic.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 12:22pm

  34. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/15/2009 @ 12:18pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --woah frosty, Obama and the democrats were on board with TARP...this kind of criticism makes you a "right-winger"...right Mask, heheh?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 12:23pm

  35. ficheye: "Sorry... I'll be waiting for the report, but Beck is a master of disinformation. I can't take anything he says as serious."

    --but Mask takes him seriously! Beck OWNS him!

    ficheye: "As far as ACORN goes, I'm curious about why you feel they are so relevant when there are financial institutions out there who deserve far more scrutiny. Not that they don't deserve scrutiny, mind you... I just think that they are way down the list."

    --see frosty's good post right above yours...he agrees...I agree...guess we're all RIGHT-WINGERS...right Mask? heheh

    ficheye: "I'm hoping that you were joking about Glenn Beck. In my opinion he's a lunatic."

    --that lunatic OWNS Mask...poor guy!...heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 12:25pm

  36. Well, accountability would do, but, as a reporter for the NY Times mentioned on Charlie Rose last night, the investment banks are back to behaving much as they always have, trading for their own accounts, and once more Obama's speak is louder than his actions.....

    Charlie M.

    Posted by cmsandia at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm

  37. From my humble anecdotal experience, virtually all of those who claimed before an election that "all politicians are crooks", after some probing, revealed that they had voted repub.

    And I never met one repub who opposed, for instance, the plan to partially privatize social security. This of course, was a euphemism for crippling SS.

    Perception & reality issues come to mind (in the case of urmygyro)

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm

  38. And I never met one repub who opposed, for instance, the plan to partially privatize social security.

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm

    No, I would neither oppose privatizing SS, nor would I be averse to being let out of SS entirely. I believe I could do a far better job of investing for my retirement if I had all the money taken from me over the years given back to me posthaste. Heck, just keeping it in a simple savings account would garner more interest than it does bouncing around in SS.

    The SS ponzi scheme was flawed from the start and has only gotten worse. They started giving SS checks to people who had never even paid into the program. It would've been better had they declared that one 1st generation would begin paying into it when they turned 18 and would then recieve checks when they turned 65. But they didn't do that.

    Then Johnson put SS into the general fund.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 1:19pm

  39. And I never met one repub who opposed, for instance, the plan to partially privatize social security.

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm

    No, I would neither oppose privatizing SS, nor would I be averse to being let out of SS entirely. I believe I could do a far better job of investing for my retirement if I had all the money taken from me over the years given back to me posthaste. Heck, just keeping it in a simple savings account would garner more interest than it does bouncing around in SS.

    The SS ponzi scheme was flawed from the start and has only gotten worse. They started giving SS checks to people who had never even paid into the program. It would've been better had they declared that one 1st generation would begin paying into it when they turned 18 and would then recieve checks when they turned 65. But they didn't do that.

    Then Johnson put SS into the general fund.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 1:19pm

  40. And I never met one repub who opposed, for instance, the plan to partially privatize social security.

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm

    No, I would neither oppose privatizing SS, nor would I be averse to being let out of SS entirely. I believe I could do a far better job of investing for my retirement if I had all the money taken from me over the years given back to me posthaste. Heck, just keeping it in a simple savings account would garner more interest than it does bouncing around in SS.

    The SS ponzi scheme was flawed from the start and has only gotten worse. They started giving SS checks to people who had never even paid into the program. It would've been better had they declared that one 1st generation would begin paying into it when they turned 18 and would then recieve checks when they turned 65. But they didn't do that.

    Then Johnson put SS into the general fund.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 1:19pm

  41. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 1:19pm

    You are just too wise & imbued with the grace of g-d to compare yourself to those of us who depend on the SS safety net.

    Unforeseen consequences, best laid plans, etc. just don't enter into your scheme of things.

    I'm sure you made a mint during the recent investment implosion. The bubble popped dude & you're still "riding" it. Wily coyote syndrome with you for sure. I'd say get a grip, but that's hard to do when you're in mid-air. Bon voyage!

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 1:38pm

  42. The thing is Urmy, everyone here trys to complain about govt or senators or congress critters, you complain about the other posters.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 1:43pm

  43. "I'm quite likely the most liberal commenter here--"---Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:31am |

    So it's just "coincidence" that you seemingly use right-wing talking points....attack almost every "Nation" writer's posts....and "cozy up" to right-wing posters more than you go after them?

    And that if anybody else would like to dispute that and agree that you are "quite likely the most liberal commenter here"...they'd have a tough time????

    If so, let's start a little "TN" blog poll--

    Who here thinks urmy is the "real deal"..."a real 'pure progressive' who just SEEMS right-wing due to his attacks on 'Republican-lite'ism'"...

    and who here thinks as I do...he's a poser?

    Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 1:56pm

  44. From my humble anecdotal experience, virtually all of those who claimed before an election that "all politicians are crooks", after some probing, revealed that they had voted repub. And I never met one repub who opposed, for instance, the plan to partially privatize social security. This of course, was a euphemism for crippling SS. Perception & reality issues come to mind (in the case of urmygyro) Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 12:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --another Maskian commenter who wants no ill-talk of Obama and the democrats! the republicans are irrelevant (no presidency; wrong side of a filibuster proof majority)...I'm for universal health care (and against privatization of social security...esp. with the crappy "regulations" of the investment market...we either have social security; or we don't...and we need it).

    --I wish I could say I find it shocking that so many commenters here want to shut up criticism of obama from someone who finds him TOO CONSERVATIVE!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 1:58pm

  45. The thing is Urmy, everyone here trys to complain about govt or senators or congress critters, you complain about the other posters.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 1:43pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --"complain about the other posters"...like you're doing now? heheh! ... the vast majority of your posts talk about other posters (and seem mostly to complain about me or other posters you have a problem with)...no hypocrisy there!

    --and you're right, none of the posters you adore (emiledubois, for example) EVER talks about other posters! EVER! and none of the other posters you don't criticize EVER talk about other posters, EVER! heheh

    --oh, and (sarcasm alert!) I ONLY ever talk about other posters!

    ...I never talk about politicians/policies/what's in the body of the blog above the comment section, right?

    I'm committing the "sin" of being too liberal and calling out democrats! Have I NO SHAME?!...what's the title of this blog again?...heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:04pm

  46. wish I could say I find it shocking that so many commenters here want to shut up criticism of obama from someone who finds him TOO CONSERVATIVE!---Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 1:58pm

    I don't want you shut up, urmy.

    The more you talk, the better a case is built that you are NOT the "Naderite" or whatever you claim.

    Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 2:05pm

  47. Mask: "So it's just "coincidence" that you seemingly use right-wing talking points"

    --Give me one (just, one) right-wing talking point I supposedly use. I'm sure you've saved tons of my posts (heheh) so this should be NO PROBLEM for you.

    Mask: "....attack almost every "Nation" writer's posts...."

    --Didn't you post something very recently (after I said I had a suspicion that you are Chris Hayes) from KVH where she criticized you for being too negative? (rhetorical question--you did)

    Mask: "and "cozy up" to right-wing posters more than you go after them?"

    --the republicans are irrelevant. We have a democrat president and filibuster-proof democrat senate. why would I concern myself with the losers of the last election? the people in charge are who I'm concerned with. and doesn't frosty zoom essentially hold the same beliefs I do (I see his posts criticize Obama A LOT) yet I never see you get your panties in a twist over his posts. heheh.

    Mask: "And that if anybody else would like to dispute that and agree that you are "quite likely the most liberal commenter here"...they'd have a tough time????"

    --I believe in universal health care. getting out of iraq and afghanistan yesterday (and the day before that, and that)...I believe in gay marriage being legalized in every state. I'm pro-choice. I'm anti-capital punishment. I'm against big business getting taxpayer bailouts. I can go on and on...if others here believe in those too (or other liberal ideas)...please share.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:14pm

  48. I put the full blame on the federal government for this crisis. They sold the us tax payer to the fed and now we have this mess. If we finally get to audit the fed I bet we find the major banks that caused this problem fully in partnership with the fed. Take the government out of the regulation of banking and insuring peoples losses form putting there trust in bad banks. SO that we can let the good ones grow and the bad ones fall. Bring us back a true free market...I would love to open a bank....

    Posted by MplsStyme at 09/15/2009 @ 2:23pm

  49. Mask: "and "cozy up" to right-wing posters more than you go after them?"

    --wasn't Ted Kennedy praised for being able to get along with the Republicans in the senate? Guess he was a right-winger!

    Mask: "let's start a little "TN" blog poll--"

    --"let's" being a contraction for "let us"--which is inaccurate--you want to poll. so it's "let me start..."

    Mask: "Who here thinks urmy is the "real deal"..."a real 'pure progressive' who just SEEMS right-wing due to his attacks on 'Republican-lite'ism'"... and who here thinks as I do...he's a poser?"

    --can't wait to be told what I think and believe in from poll responses from anonymous interweb blog commenters!

    --while we're at polls: Who here thinks, as I do, that Mask is thoroughly embarassed that I pinned him to being OWNED by the right-wing media and is frustratingly trying to save face? heheh!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:23pm

  50. wish I could say I find it shocking that so many commenters here want to shut up criticism of obama from someone who finds him TOO CONSERVATIVE!---Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 1:58pm I don't want you shut up, urmy. The more you talk, the better a case is built that you are NOT the "Naderite" or whatever you claim. Posted by Mask at 09/15/2009 @ 2:05pm | ignore this person |

    --more making things up in the world of the Maskerade! I voted for Obama; as I've said numerous times. You can't even get that right! (oh, wait, hold the exclamation point; as it's not surprising you're wrong yet again)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:26pm

  51. Those of us who'd like Obama to not be TOO CONSERVATIVE should really look for an alliance with Antisocialist, Happy & Darin the Troll.

    I mean, if you're anti Obama from any perspective whatever, that will drive the search for a true progressive!

    I get it Urmy, you want Obama IMPEACHED, followed by Biden & Polosi. Ad infinitum. If we eliminate enough pols, sooner or later we'll find a true progressive! Brilliant!

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 2:34pm

  52. sorelish: "Those of us who'd like Obama to not be TOO CONSERVATIVE should really look for an alliance with Antisocialist, Happy & Darin the Troll."

    --yes, in the netherworld of the interweb, I have formed an "alliance" with Antisocialist, Happy, and Darin, and we are prepared to take over the world! heheh

    sorelish: "I mean, if you're anti Obama from any perspective whatever, that will drive the search for a true progressive!"

    --my vote for Obama was truly "anti Obama"!

    sorelish: "I get it Urmy, you want Obama IMPEACHED, followed by Biden & Polosi. Ad infinitum. If we eliminate enough pols, sooner or later we'll find a true progressive! Brilliant!"

    --hyperbole will get you everywhere my friend!...you cannot criticize Obama without being attacked as "right-wing"...hmmmm...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:45pm

  53. no one's responded to your poll Mask...awwww...and where's just one example of a "right-wing talking point" you accuse me of using?

    heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:51pm

  54. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:45pm

    Uncle Joe Gyro! Rebuttal score? Soso (lookitup)

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 2:56pm

  55. Abolish derivatives, credit-default swaps, and every other kind of funny paper designed over the last 45 years to enable financial insiders to dupe their customers, including each other. Reject the stupid and expensive idea that banks can "grow out of" their bankruptcies. Make Fannie Mae once again what it was originally, a nonprofit corporation with the single purpose of helping people to finance the purchase of their first home.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:41am

    Add to this a drastic decrease in the amount of "leverage" permitted, and abolish securitization, and I'll carry a sign and march with you anytime, right wing nut that I am!

    Posted by sntauri at 09/15/2009 @ 2:56pm

  56. You sure sound like a righty to me, and I do have to agree with Mask.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 2:59pm

  57. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:45pm Uncle Joe Gyro! Rebuttal score? Soso (lookitup) Posted by Sorelish at 09/15/2009 @ 2:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --nah, you can just explain it...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:03pm

  58. You sure sound like a righty to me, and I do have to agree with Mask. Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 2:59pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --imagine my complete lack of surprise!

    and you're still focused on me, huh? even though that's what you said we shouldn't be doing here as commenters, right? heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:05pm

  59. Abolish derivatives, credit-default swaps, and every other kind of funny paper designed over the last 45 years to enable financial insiders to dupe their customers, including each other. Reject the stupid and expensive idea that banks can "grow out of" their bankruptcies. Make Fannie Mae once again what it was originally, a nonprofit corporation with the single purpose of helping people to finance the purchase of their first home.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 11:41am Add to this a drastic decrease in the amount of "leverage" permitted, and abolish securitization, and I'll carry a sign and march with you anytime, right wing nut that I am!

    Posted by sntauri at 09/15/2009 @ 2:56pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --denise29: JakobFabian is liberal. sntauri isn't. I agree with both of their comments above. How is that possible?! heheh!

    --also, densie29: do you care to comment on what they said, or you care much more about commenting on me? heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:07pm

  60. Can someone tell me what ACORN has to do with the financial debacle? Is it possible that they are being used as a scapegoat by the libertarian/republican crowd who want to use misdirection instead of addressing the real problem... greed that masquerades as free-market capitalism?

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 11:28am

    The rethugs have been caught so many times with their hands in the cookie jar, they'll point their crooked little fingers at anything they can find.

    I wouldn't doubt that there might be crooked people working for Acorn. Same as I wouldn't be surprised if there were crooked people working anywhere. People who are crooks, take advantage of systems for their own gain. The game the system. It's more fun to steal and cheat than it is to do things honestly.

    That's the problem here. The Acorn folks are doing it on a low level. The rethugs did it at the higheset levels of government in conjuction with the banking industry and wallstreet. So, far the Obama administration has continued W's policies of bailing out these greedy ass tycoons. Perhaps we did avoid another great depression, or perhaps it's still lurking around the corner waiting for the other shoe to drop.

    Our unemployment is still at 10% and we aren't producing anything and our debt is increasing. Couple that with the fact that with the fact that oil is going back up and winter is on the way.....things don't look good.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:16pm

  61. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:16pm

    Sorry about the errors in the last post. Multi-tasking errrors.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:18pm

  62. wolfgang1: "The rethugs did it at the higheset levels of government in conjuction with the banking industry and wallstreet. So, far the Obama administration has continued W's policies of bailing out these greedy ass tycoons."

    --woah, woah, woah! this sounds like criticism of obama!

    wolfgang1: "Perhaps we did avoid another great depression, or perhaps it's still lurking around the corner waiting for the other shoe to drop."

    --if it happens against i'm sure bailouts won't be far behind!

    wolfgang1: "Our unemployment is still at 10% and we aren't producing anything and our debt is increasing. Couple that with the fact that with the fact that oil is going back up and winter is on the way.....things don't look good."

    --no negativity about obama! that's not allowed here!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:21pm

  63. Actually Urmy I also agree with both of them.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:25pm

  64. I also agree with wolfgang1.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:28pm

  65. Actually Urmy I also agree with both of them.--Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:25pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --so you also agree with me! (not that you'd say so)

    I also agree with wolfgang1.--Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:28pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --but he's being negative about obama! (like me!)

    ...once you let Mask stop leading you around by the nose you'll realize you agree with me much more than you do with him...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:32pm

  66. Yes Urmy I agree with you.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:49pm

  67. JacobFabian: "People distrust you, "urmygyro," because all you do is complain."

    --correction: people don't like me because I question and criticize Obama and the democrats...who are in power...the republicans are meaningless now, yet I'm supposed to focus on them?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:59am

    Best Quotable Quote in weeks: "....the republicans are meaningless now, yet I'm supposed to focus on them?"

    Though I don't personally think the "meaningless" applies across-the-board, just in Congress and the Senate (which may actually be what you meant).

    Your QQ also nails the problems TN and similar `high-end' Lefty sites (& `high-end' Lefty bloggers who know who they are here) are having.....they are effectively between a rock and a hard place....becoming themselves, truly "meaningless".

    As for you, nobody here can quite be sure of what you are.

    IF you're a Lib/Prog, you've got the qualities exulted by Rand in her novels.....and power to you!

    IF you're a Con/Libertarian masquerading as, well, urmy, you are doing a better job than any that have come before you.....in the almost 4 years I've been around.

    MASK, in his early days (w/respect to my entry here), was a pale shadow of what you present yourself to be now.

    Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 3:52pm

  68. Mask has never lead me around by the nose and no one here has led me around by the anything. Urmy I still feel you do seem to pick on Mask more than anyone here, and more often than not you sound like a righty.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:53pm

  69. Can someone tell me what ACORN has to do with the financial debacle?

    Well, not everything happening must be tied directly to our financial situation. One does not ignore the corruption and indeed, seeming total lack of any values in an organization that has been taking millions of taxpayer dollars since 1994. We can both walk and chew gum at the same time.

    About the closest thing in American history to ACORN I can even think of would be Boss Tweed's Tammany Hall machine.

    And as far as equating what is unfolding about ACORN to some Republican misdeeds, if you can find me a similiar Republican organization in history that is being investigated in 14 states, has at least a few dozen people indicted for election fraud (i.e. corrupting our most essential institution), and doesn't bat an EYE when confronted with prostitution, illegal immigration of children for prostitution, cheating taxes, and as of tonight...confessing to murder, then I'd say things were about even. But frankly, there is no current equivalent to the absolutely soulless, craven, power-hungry, and immoral goings on in ACORN...of which our President was affiliated.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 3:55pm

  70. Can someone tell me what ACORN has to do with the financial debacle?

    Well, not everything happening must be tied directly to our financial situation. One does not ignore the corruption and indeed, seeming total lack of any values in an organization that has been taking millions of taxpayer dollars since 1994. We can both walk and chew gum at the same time.

    About the closest thing in American history to ACORN I can even think of would be Boss Tweed's Tammany Hall machine.

    And as far as equating what is unfolding about ACORN to some Republican misdeeds, if you can find me a similiar Republican organization in history that is being investigated in 14 states, has at least a few dozen people indicted for election fraud (i.e. corrupting our most essential institution), and doesn't bat an EYE when confronted with prostitution, illegal immigration of children for prostitution, cheating taxes, and as of tonight...confessing to murder, then I'd say things were about even. But frankly, there is no current equivalent to the absolutely soulless, craven, power-hungry, and immoral goings on in ACORN...of which our President was affiliated.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 3:55pm

  71. Can someone tell me what ACORN has to do with the financial debacle?

    Well, not everything happening must be tied directly to our financial situation. One does not ignore the corruption and indeed, seeming total lack of any values in an organization that has been taking millions of taxpayer dollars since 1994. We can both walk and chew gum at the same time.

    About the closest thing in American history to ACORN I can even think of would be Boss Tweed's Tammany Hall machine.

    And as far as equating what is unfolding about ACORN to some Republican misdeeds, if you can find me a similiar Republican organization in history that is being investigated in 14 states, has at least a few dozen people indicted for election fraud (i.e. corrupting our most essential institution), and doesn't bat an EYE when confronted with prostitution, illegal immigration of children for prostitution, cheating taxes, and as of tonight...confessing to murder, then I'd say things were about even. But frankly, there is no current equivalent to the absolutely soulless, craven, power-hungry, and immoral goings on in ACORN...of which our President was affiliated.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 3:55pm

  72. "Add to this a drastic decrease in the amount of "leverage" permitted, and abolish securitization, and I'll carry a sign and march with you anytime, right wing nut that I am!"

    there was a great conversation btw ariana huffington and ron paul on scarborough this morning, which is worth watching, not the least in terms of the amout of agreement between them.

    paul might be a bit of an idealist, in that he wants to go a lot further than abolish the fed. for instance, his claim that helping out poor people actually *hurts* them is a bit of stretch, given that: a) poor people don't get a lot of help from the government anyway; and b) the help that they do get is actually quite helpful (food stamps, housing, etc).

    if he wants to leave the government out of helping people, then poor people will be left high and dry. it's all about what we get in return for our money.

    propping up failed banks w/ toxic assets is not a good return on investment. we need more transparency in government accouting, and the people need to have more of a say.

    77% of the people, and over 70% of doctors, want a public option. no, they *demand* a public option, and obama and the democrats are weasling out of it.....

    Posted by darladoon at 09/15/2009 @ 3:55pm

  73. over 70% of doctors, want a public option.

    tell it to the fake doc plain Bruce.

    Posted by emile duBois at 09/15/2009 @ 4:22pm

  74. Happy: "Best Quotable Quote in weeks: "....the republicans are meaningless now, yet I'm supposed to focus on them?" Though I don't personally think the "meaningless" applies across-the-board, just in Congress and the Senate (which may actually be what you meant)."

    --yes, I meant The President and filibuster-proof majority in the Senate. On The Nation (and many bloggers/commenters) made a HUGE deal out of that last fall; how the progressive agenda would finally get a chance, etc...maybe I'm naive, but I thought, "yeah, get us out of the wars, get us some universal health care, etc)...so far, that Democrat control has given me nada!

    Happy: "Your QQ also nails the problems TN and similar `high-end' Lefty sites (& `high-end' Lefty bloggers who know who they are here) are having.....they are effectively between a rock and a hard place....becoming themselves, truly "meaningless"."

    --I think there's no doubt Mask is there (but he will deny so, of course).

    Happy: "As for you, nobody here can quite be sure of what you are."

    --can anyone be "sure" on an anonymous interweb comment section? haha!

    Happy: "IF you're a Lib/Prog, you've got the qualities exulted by Rand in her novels.....and power to you!"

    --I am a Liberal/Progressive! I'm not really so concerned with a fiction writer's philosophy on politics (I mean, she made her money writing books; not actually creating a new hybrid steel, etc)

    Happy: "IF you're a Con/Libertarian masquerading as, well, urmy, you are doing a better job than any that have come before you.....in the almost 4 years I've been around."

    --I'm not a conservative/libertarian. I'm ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing. Mask's problem is he thinks my criticism of obama means I want another George Bush in office--I DON'T.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 4:26pm

  75. You sure sound like a righty to me, and I do have to agree with Mask. Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 2:59pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --imagine my complete lack of surprise!

    and you're still focused on me, huh? even though that's what you said we shouldn't be doing here as commenters, right? heheh

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:05pm

    Since you recently brought this up, it is strange that Denise provides almost no debate substance. She has become just another critic of bloggers rather than engage in debate.

    I think that whatever Mask suffers from must be capable of transmission through the internet to some of these bloggers.

    When I first began blogging here back in 2004 or 2005, there was actually a fair amount of debate. In the last couple of years, it has primarily become a source for personal attacks. Not something the Nation encourages nor do I expect that they like to see have developed to the extent that it has.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/15/2009 @ 4:28pm

  76. MASK, in his early days (w/respect to my entry here), was a pale shadow of what you present yourself to be now. Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 3:52pm | ignore this person |

    --too much OWNERSHIP by the right-wing media for Mask...he doesn't think for himself anymore...heheh!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 4:33pm

  77. denise29: "Mask has never lead me around by the nose and no one here has led me around by the anything."

    --the claim (by mask, and you, and others) that I'm "right-wing" is based on you guys saying I "sound like a righty"...well, you "seem" like you're being led about by Mask! see how easy that is?

    denise29: "Urmy I still feel you do seem to pick on Mask more than anyone here, and more often than not you sound like a righty."

    --point to a post (or numerous posts) where I "sound like a righty" please...thanks.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 4:36pm

  78. Where is the new financial regulation legislation?

    In my opinion, the Financial Services (banking, insurance, hedge funds, etc) arm of the economy poses as great a threat to human existence as Climate Change (no matter the source), gamma ray bursts, or airborne Ebola. I like free markets, but "financial innovation" threatens ALL of us. Lack of progress on re-regulation will have us arguing with each other over an Internet based on tin cans and string! I support any effort to pressure Democrats and Republicans to get on top of this threat.

    Posted by sntauri at 09/15/2009 @ 4:51pm

  79. I notice the author rightly mentions Greenspan and Gramm for deregulation, but doesn't mention that repealing the Glass-Stegall Act was a bipartisan bill that Bill Clinton enthusiastically signed. Of course, Dems and Repubs both passed it to him in veto-proof numbers, but the fact remains he was a supporter and even had cause to defend his decision later during this collapse.

    And it was not deregulation that allowed Fannie and Freddie to keep buying up bad loans from these private banks, thus being an enabler for much of this mess. It was Democrats threatening to fillibuster any attempt to reign in Fannie and Freddie the two or three times it was suggested during the Bush years. Jeez, how many times did Barney Frank and Chris Dodd clap hands over their eyes and ears and declare Fannie/Freddie practices to be sound?

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:07pm

  80. I notice the author rightly mentions Greenspan and Gramm for deregulation, but doesn't mention that repealing the Glass-Stegall Act was a bipartisan bill that Bill Clinton enthusiastically signed. Of course, Dems and Repubs both passed it to him in veto-proof numbers, but the fact remains he was a supporter and even had cause to defend his decision later during this collapse.

    And it was not deregulation that allowed Fannie and Freddie to keep buying up bad loans from these private banks, thus being an enabler for much of this mess. It was Democrats threatening to fillibuster any attempt to reign in Fannie and Freddie the two or three times it was suggested during the Bush years. Jeez, how many times did Barney Frank and Chris Dodd clap hands over their eyes and ears and declare Fannie/Freddie practices to be sound?

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:07pm

  81. I notice the author rightly mentions Greenspan and Gramm for deregulation, but doesn't mention that repealing the Glass-Stegall Act was a bipartisan bill that Bill Clinton enthusiastically signed. Of course, Dems and Repubs both passed it to him in veto-proof numbers, but the fact remains he was a supporter and even had cause to defend his decision later during this collapse.

    And it was not deregulation that allowed Fannie and Freddie to keep buying up bad loans from these private banks, thus being an enabler for much of this mess. It was Democrats threatening to fillibuster any attempt to reign in Fannie and Freddie the two or three times it was suggested during the Bush years. Jeez, how many times did Barney Frank and Chris Dodd clap hands over their eyes and ears and declare Fannie/Freddie practices to be sound?

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:07pm

  82. This is the simplest way I have seen yet for the liberals to get blamed for the housing mess.I just wonder how we continue to have foreclosures and short sales dominate the housing market. The experts discussing this seem to have over estimated the effect of "poor" home buyers.My brother lives by Lake Minnetonka, one of the nicest stretches of suburban real estate in the Twin Cities.He personally knows at least 50 couples who have lost or are close to losing their homes. None of these people have incomes under six figures. The lack of knowledge and stereotyping regarding this issue makes me want to puke. Do a little more research than reading an article slamming Barney and Chris.

    Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 5:37pm

  83. whatizz--how are people making six figures losing their houses?

    ...and if they put too little down (and/or bought too expensive a house)...why are we suppose to feel bad for someone making triple or quadruple or more the median income?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 5:44pm

  84. I'm a renter; I make less than $40,000 a year (in the wealthiest, per capita, state in the country -- CT)...if I can't afford to buy here...how am I suppose to feel sorry for someone making more than $100,000/year in Minnesota who bought a house apparently too big for their britches?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 5:47pm

  85. I'm not really so concerned with a fiction writer's philosophy on politics (I mean, she made her money writing books; not actually creating a new hybrid steel, etc)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 4:26pm

    Good comment about Rand. Termites are coming out of the woodwork, urmy.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 6:07pm

  86. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 5:47pm

    Whatizz was not asking for your sympathy. He is stating that it is not just the poor people who lost their homes. Some on the right blame the housing crisis on pressure from the democrats on Freddie and Fanny to be more liberal in their lending to poor and minorities. This I believe is what was being refered to.

    The amount of income someone is making is not always related to their ability to afford a home. If I am making 6 figures and buy an expensive home, one that is affordable (fits my britches) on my salary, but then lose my job or my spouse does. I would not be in a better position to pay my mortgage that someone making 35k a year who bought a cheap home and then lost their source of income. If you lose your job or income...you can't pay your mortgage. Its just a matter of scale and to point fingers at Frank and Dodd and say if it was all their fault for encouraging (if they actually did) banks to lend to lower income families is bogus. The greed that caused our current situation was multifaceted and the blame should be dispersed across parties.

    Posted by Extraneous at 09/15/2009 @ 6:13pm

  87. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:07pm |

    Funny how the Pug dominated congress got those tax cuts passed without too much hassle but went suddenly limp when it came to enacting legislation to "reign in" Fannie and Freddie (I think you meant rein, but the Freudian slip is apropos too, I guess) despite "dire warnings" from Bush and his possie.

    I guess that Barney Frank and his filibuster were really, really scary and forcing them to stand up and do it wasn't an option.

    Pull the other one.

    Posted by snowball777 at 09/15/2009 @ 6:14pm

  88. Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 5:37pm | Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 5:44pm |

    It's quite fashionable to throw vitriol at the schmucks who got talked into buying something they shouldn't have or tapping equity they should have left alone, but do not underestimate the problems caused by speculators and flippers...3-10X more dangerous to the economy than your average 3+1 900sq ft buyer.

    And don't forget that some of these loan documents were fudged by the mortgage bundlers....people did get genuinely swindled in some cases.

    Full disclosure: I'm a renter too, not an evictee with sour grapes.

    Posted by snowball777 at 09/15/2009 @ 6:21pm

  89. ficheye: "Good comment about Rand."

    --thank you.

    ficheye: "Termites are coming out of the woodwork, urmy."

    --I apologize, but I'm not sure I get this.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

  90. extraneous: "Whatizz was not asking for your sympathy."

    --in a way, he is, actually.

    extraneous: "The amount of income someone is making is not always related to their ability to afford a home. If I am making 6 figures and buy an expensive home, one that is affordable (fits my britches) on my salary, but then lose my job or my spouse does. I would not be in a better position to pay my mortgage that someone making 35k a year who bought a cheap home and then lost their source of income."

    --right, but so many people, when they are making good money, never take into consideration that sometime in the future they won't. they spend (and are given loans) as if they will always be making that money. are we suppose to feel sorry for people who buy expensive cars and lose their job and then the car is repossessed? financial responsibility doesn't mean getting whatever you can.

    extraneous: "If you lose your job or income...you can't pay your mortgage. Its just a matter of scale and to point fingers at Frank and Dodd and say if it was all their fault for encouraging (if they actually did) banks to lend to lower income families is bogus. The greed that caused our current situation was multifaceted and the blame should be dispersed across parties."

    --I agree there are many parties to blame (and just b/c Dodd and Frank aren't responsible for the entire mess, which obviously they are not, doesn't mean they are blameless). I blame just as much the gov't for not having/enforcing better regulations as the people wanting to buy expensive houses, and banks for giving risky loans (and not just to poor people).

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 6:53pm

  91. snowball777: "It's quite fashionable to throw vitriol at the schmucks who got talked into buying something they shouldn't have or tapping equity they should have left alone, but do not underestimate the problems caused by speculators and flippers...3-10X more dangerous to the economy than your average 3+1 900sq ft buyer."

    --I don't know how accurate "3-10X more" is; but don't worry, I shed no tears for speculators either.

    snowball777: "And don't forget that some of these loan documents were fudged by the mortgage bundlers....people did get genuinely swindled in some cases."

    --I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Could you be more specific please? Are you saying, to give a rough example, that someone is paying a higher interest rate than they thought they were signing up to pay?

    snowball777: "Full disclosure: I'm a renter too, not an evictee with sour grapes."

    --not sure why you included that, I don't think anyone called you an "evictee with sour grapes"...but if you were, it's your right to argue and put forth how you feel (and even if you've never experienced that, your point of view is welcome)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 7:17pm

  92. Just look at the fiasco corporations are making of the health care debate. Posted by crabwalk at 09/15/2009 @ 11:28am +++

    Just look at the fiasco corporations are making of our country. And the weird thing is, they're getting lots of support from so-called ordinary citizens, who suddenly are beloved of their health-insurance companies.

    We are a corporate state, which is another phrase for fascism.

    Posted by Citizen54 at 09/15/2009 @ 7:19pm

  93. The airline pilots at Northwest(now Delta) did not dare strike because of some of their mortgages. It in the long run did them no good. My point was that this was not the Fannie and Freddie shuffle that was the conservative arrow shot. Do I think people lived beyond their means,certainly. I also think that our economy is in such a disastrously out of balance position that the housing industry got every nod from politicians and regulators.Droopy would probably know the high point of Toll Brothers stock price. Remember how good the sales were at Home Depot and Lowe's. Look what the spillover effect has done to those companies, Best Buy,and others in the home appliance and furnishing business. The low amount of housing and commercial building has put tremendous stress on our economy. The stimulus will probably work(seems to be just kicking in) with a large chunk of construction work. I just wonder how the American people would be weighing in on our "war on terror" if we were paying for it through taxation like all of our other ones. Would GWB have been re-elected? That is the rub with many Republican politicians,lets cut spending but borrowing is o.k. It seems to me to be a back alley three card monti approach.

    Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 7:31pm

  94. you're bringing the "war on terror" into this?

    ok! haha!

    but I agree that wars should be paid as they are fought, and the citizens of the country waging war should sacrifice...it prevents us from being comfortable deficit-spending wars and makes the citizens want the war to stop (i.e., be winnable!--are you listening Barack?)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 7:39pm

  95. I think this was the first war we "borrowed" the money on an ongoing basis to fight.To top this off GWB used reconciliation for his tax cuts that have robbed the treasury of needed revenue. Don't say haha to this ,it is a fact . I agree with your end point, are you listening Mr. President. Of course now we have Iran, who does not have its natural rival in position to counter balance its influence.We can blame ourselves for that for we had incompetent civilian leadership for the first seven years of the conflict. Now we can look at Israel and try to say liberals are anti semites because they are not calling for war.Some of us liberals know a little about the Jewish-Arab struggle for control of Palestine. I say to the conservatives on this situation ,pray for everyone's self control.

    Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 8:04pm

  96. whatizz: "I think this was the first war we "borrowed" the money on an ongoing basis to fight.To top this off GWB used reconciliation for his tax cuts that have robbed the treasury of needed revenue. Don't say haha to this ,it is a fact."

    --Bush was terrible, there's no question. You won't see me laughing at the damage he caused.

    whatizz: "I agree with your end point, are you listening Mr. President"

    --I wish he was...I don't think he's going to end out being much different than Bush, sadly.

    whatizz: "Of course now we have Iran, who does not have its natural rival in position to counter balance its influence.We can blame ourselves for that for we had incompetent civilian leadership for the first seven years of the conflict. Now we can look at Israel and try to say liberals are anti semites because they are not calling for war.Some of us liberals know a little about the Jewish-Arab struggle for control of Palestine. I say to the conservatives on this situation ,pray for everyone's self control."

    --Israel and Palestine won't ever get along. I don't want us there either.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 8:14pm

  97. --I apologize, but I'm not sure I get this. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

    What I mean is... there are bloggers on both 'sides' coming out to make you explain yourself when all you are doing is employing a tough and objective sense of discernment when it comes to a political discourse. It seems to have them all going. I'm using a little literary license when I describe this as 'the termites are coming out of the woodwork.'

    Personally I have no problem with asking just what Obama is doing in Afghanistan. It's giving me a headache.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 8:30pm

  98. --I apologize, but I'm not sure I get this. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

    ficheye: "What I mean is... there are bloggers on both 'sides' coming out to make you explain yourself when all you are doing is employing a tough and objective sense of discernment when it comes to a political discourse. It seems to have them all going. I'm using a little literary license when I describe this as 'the termites are coming out of the woodwork.'"

    --I get it now! And thank you...I think that's what I'm doing too (although, I grant, I probably make fun of Mask too much, but I think he deserves it...but, quite frankly, he's the one getting other people riled up and trying to say I'm a "right-winger" when I'm the complete opposite, so I take it back, he deserves to be made fun of!)

    ficheye: "Personally I have no problem with asking just what Obama is doing in Afghanistan. It's giving me a headache."

    --it's giving me a headache too (and even more so when I see people who voted for him making excuses for him keeping the troops there...talk about a double-standard: specific timetables for getting out of the wars were all the talk when W. was still president...now, not so much)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 8:50pm

  99. Personally I have no problem with asking just what Obama is doing in Afghanistan. It's giving me a headache.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 8:30pm

    well,

    the attack ("defence") industry is the only one left.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/15/2009 @ 9:27pm

  100. Personally I have no problem with asking just what Obama is doing in Afghanistan. It's giving me a headache. Posted by ficheye at 09/15/2009 @ 8:30pm well, the attack ("defence") industry is the only one left. Posted by frosty zoom at 09/15/2009 @ 9:27pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --says he who was telling Happy to "cut the crap" (i.e., who he accused of lying about the economy)

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 9:40pm

  101. The Democrats could not be seen to be weak on National defense. His mistake was to 1 up GWB on Afghanistan.The defense industry is one of our last manufacturing groups.I think I need a pep talk on "jobless recoveries". Is that a term used by 500 guys working at 500 different think tanks that are paid to explain how other people won't be paid? We talk about Social Security going broke. How big is the fund that pays out unemployment money?

    Posted by whatizz at 09/15/2009 @ 9:48pm

  102. --can anyone be "sure" on an anonymous interweb comment section? haha!

    --I am a Liberal/Progressive! I'm not really so concerned with a fiction writer's philosophy on politics (I mean, she made her money writing books; not actually creating a new hybrid steel, etc)

    --I'm not a conservative/libertarian. I'm ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing. Mask's problem is he thinks my criticism of obama means I want another George Bush in office--I DON'T.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 4:26pm

    The multi-year regulars (who maintained same nic and not using real or fake names like Chip T.) are the "sures" as far as political persuasions, at this, a political blog.....one or two here have revealed their actual, real-life, no-kidding names, like Larry (Anti). It would be one sick and unbalanced puppy to pretend to be something other than oneself for long here! After all, MASK is always lurking!

    When I said qualities Rand exulted, I didn't mean political ideology....just the personal strength to stand for ones' belief, even if alone! Reminds me of a dialogue between Howard Roark (Fountainhead) and some schmuck who asked what did Roark thought of him, Roark responded: "I don't think of you!"

    So, you're "ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing"......well, that tells me you're pretty young and has yet to come face to face with "big gov't" and how, even when "it's doing the right thing", it does so very poorly, expensively, slowly and usually with a lot of corruption.....using other people's money is THAT insulating!

    Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 10:22pm

  103. "And it was not deregulation that allowed Fannie and Freddie to keep buying up bad loans from these private banks, thus being an enabler for much of this mess. It was Democrats threatening to fillibuster any attempt to reign in Fannie and Freddie the two or three times it was suggested during the Bush years"

    only on the blogs does one encounter such hilarious thoughts......

    Posted by darladoon at 09/15/2009 @ 10:37pm

  104. 'So, you're "ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing"......well, that tells me you're pretty young and has yet to come face to face with "big gov't" and how, even when "it's doing the right thing", it does so very poorly, expensively, slowly and usually with a lot of corruption.....using other people's money is THAT insulating!'

    Everybody uses "other people's money," "Happy." The money I use comes from somebody else, and so does the money that you use. But money "insulates" only to the degree that one owns or controls enough to waste it and can do so with impunity.

    No vile quality that you attribute to government - correctly on occasion - does not also accumulate in large corporations, for the simple reason that money accumulates in them and enables them to buy impunity.

    Our defenses against this vileness include our right to vote, our right to shop, and our right to both multiple options and accurate information about these options, whether we vote or shop.

    For all its clunkiness, the government represents me better than any corporate boardroom does, for the simple reason that my influence over the government, at the ballot box at least, is roughly equal to the influence of any other citizen over it. In contrast, corporate boardrooms, like the rest of the marketplace, are run plutocratically; you have to pay to play, and those who pay the most make the rules that everybody else has to follow. Government, at least according to the theory of democracy, can operate according to more egalitarian principles.

    "CAN" does not yet mean "DOES"; this is why I so tirelessly (and tiresomely) call for campaign-finance reform and electoral reform, even though they may seem far removed from more immediately appealing bread-and-butter issues.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 10:52pm

  105. "For all its clunkiness, the government represents me better than any corporate boardroom does, for the simple reason that my influence over the government, at the ballot box at least, is roughly equal to the influence of any other citizen over it. In contrast, corporate boardrooms, like the rest of the marketplace, are run plutocratically; you have to pay to play, and those who pay the most make the rules that everybody else has to follow. Government, at least according to the theory of democracy, can operate according to more egalitarian principles."

    well spoken. i challenge all conservatives to respond to this without resorting to the usual claims of 'socialism'

    Posted by darladoon at 09/15/2009 @ 10:59pm

  106. So, you're "ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing"......well, that tells me you're pretty young and has yet to come face to face with "big gov't" and how, even when "it's doing the right thing", it does so very poorly, expensively, slowly and usually with a lot of corruption.....using other people's money is THAT insulating! Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 10:22pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --My name is Russ. And I'm 30, so yes, I'm still "young" as far as experience and politics goes. I don't doubt gov't doesn't do everything efficiently; but I think there is plenty the gov't is capable of doing; and better than the free market. p.s. - you just gave a good defense of why we need to get out of Iraq and Afghanistan, by the way.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:00pm

  107. "So, you're "ok with big gov't...as long as it's doing the right thing"......well, that tells me you're pretty young and has yet to come face to face with "big gov't" and how, even when "it's doing the right thing", it does so very poorly, expensively, slowly and usually with a loss"

    it's funny, why we trust conservatives, who hate government, to actually run the government.

    you'd think that people would think "hey, why should i vote for a guy, who hates government, to run the government?".....

    stupid people don't think, so i this is what we get.

    Posted by darladoon at 09/15/2009 @ 11:08pm

  108. darladoon: "you'd think that people would think "hey, why should i vote for a guy, who hates government, to run the government?""

    --well, your logic is flawed for a very simple reason: it's perfectly fine to think the role of gov't, especially the federal gov't, should be small...and thus want to be in power to prevent other people from getting in power who think the gov't should be big.

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:13pm

  109. JakobFabian: Everybody uses "other people's money," "Happy." The money I use comes from somebody else, and so does the money that you use. But money "insulates" only to the degree that one owns or controls enough to waste it and can do so with impunity.

    HAPPY: Ah, but there is a huge difference between how I (and presumably you) use money, my own or borrowed, vs. that of the Gubbers.

    I assume you're no Charlie Gibson who's a perfect illustration of what I posted on KvH's thread about "What Will Become of the News?" that if the Legacy Media didn't cover it or make it up, there was no "News", hence, he didn't know ACORN has been the Greatest Hits, now the 3rd sequal is out! Anyway, just think about the money given to ACORN.....does it really, really help the black/poor communities or does it help the pols doling out the money?

    JakobFabian: For all its clunkiness, the government represents me better than any corporate boardroom does,....

    HAPPY: I am doing my best not to fall off my chair! OK, you have a right to believe the Gubbers is the best representation of you.....I could say other things, funny but perhaps, best left unsaid.

    Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 11:36pm

  110. ....I think there is plenty the gov't is capable of doing; and better than the free market....

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 11:00pm

    Then why hasn't it with something it has been doing for hundreds of years, primary education? Local Gubbers are still Gubbers....and as the Big Gubbers (the Feds) got more involved, Separate and Equal and all that jazz....has the most basic function of education gotten better or worse--and we all know spending has gone through the roof?

    How about maintaining that wonderful interstate highway system or the bridges, most are still standing, for now?

    How about living within its means? Like you and I have to?

    I spent part of my corp. career in real estate development and outsiders have no idea how ridiculous the red tapes involved, esp. California, and how that adds costs, with low to no value, and engenders layers of opportunities for corruption....ever heard of crooked building inspectors?

    Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 11:47pm

  111. Posted by darladoon at 09/15/2009 @ 11:08pm

    You're tolerated because of your `seniority' and being fairly unique as a black lesbian....but you're a lightweight on just about everything other than herbs!

    Genuine conservatives will always do better running the Gubber machine because we will limit its reach but do what we deem necessary with efficiency.

    Look at ACORN, a parasite of the Gubbers....perfectly vile example of why Big Gubbers screws the people it supposed to be helping.

    Look at Rangel, now do you understand why maybe Harlem and Rangel deserve each other?

    Sure, small Gov't corrupts as well....but Big Gov't corrupt by a square root more, maybe even exponentially more!

    Posted by Happy at 09/15/2009 @ 11:54pm

  112. The no shame zone.

    Just what is it about ACORN that bugs some people? Whatever the problem with it's supposed societal nefariousness it cannot possibly compare with the improprieties in the financial system that still runs amok with little or no constraint. There are corporate BONUSES that likely dwarf any supplemental funding for ACORN. Where's the outrage? It's just topical misdirection.

    So my question is; How is it that ACORN and it's perceived problems outweigh the financial debacle? Give me a web link or something so I can educate myself about this, only don't send me to the Drudge report please.

    Is it that annoying and undemocratic that they get funding of some sort? Lot's of other bad institutions get funding. It has been found that they (ACORN) never actually stole any votes... and that's where this all started. But maybe I'm wrong.... someone please tell me about those stolen votes. I'm open to any viable information that comes my way. Maybe someone is just allergic to nuts. I know I am.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 01:42am

  113. Mask more than anyone here, and more often than not you sound like a righty.

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/15/2009 @ 3:53pm

    I'll second that.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 05:56am

  114. Bring us back a true free market...I would love to open a bank....

    Posted by MplsStyme at 09/15/2009 @ 2:23pm

    You're an idiot. The federal reserve is nothing more than a group of banks with a chairman overseeing their best interests (not the interests of American citizens, but the banks). Deregulation is what caused this mess, not over-regulation.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:03am

  115. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 3:55pm

    Let's see, the GOP involved in criminal activity? Ever heard of Watergate? Then there's Cheney's double secret (Congress doesn't need to know) CIA operations. Then there's the outting of Valerie Plame. Then there'e the lying about yellow cake Uranium (see Valerie Plame) and the entire circus of lies that lead us into Iraq in the first place.

    The GOP is the front for big business. The do their corrupt dealings in the light of day, illegally in front of everyone and not a damn thing has been done to any of the slimy bastards. Acorn pales in comparison.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:09am

  116. Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/15/2009 @ 5:07pm

    Is there some reason you feel the need to post in triplecate?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:12am

  117. Posted by JakobFabian at 09/15/2009 @ 10:52pm

    Good post.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:14am

  118. Is it that annoying and undemocratic that they get funding of some sort? Lot's of other bad institutions get funding. It has been found that they (ACORN) never actually stole any votes... and that's where this all started. But maybe I'm wrong.... someone please tell me about those stolen votes. I'm open to any viable information that comes my way. Maybe someone is just allergic to nuts. I know I am.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 01:42am

    Hey, I've got a problem with all of these right wing political groups posing as churches getting a tax free ride while they are in politics up their necks. And, how many good ole boy churches are there out there praying for Obama's death, that he fail while he's in office, etc. A good portion of the churches are nothing but the extreme end of the right wing propaganda machine which unfortunately is mostly what we're hearing from these days.

    I don't think there's a group of people more filled with hatred toward their fellow citizens than these "G-d loving people". Perhaps the government should investigate what some of these folks are doing with their tax free money behind closed doors.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:21am

  119. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 05:56am

    I was seconding what Denise said about urmygyro not being of the dem persuasion. He's kind of a Liv lite.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:25am

  120. Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 7:17pm |

    --I don't know how accurate "3-10X more" is; but don't worry, I shed no tears for speculators either.

    Speculators tend to carry several properties at once in various phases of flippage and generally take out loans that normal buyers wouldn't be foolish enough to take on because they plan to be done with their flip before the consequences register on them.

    --I'm not sure exactly what you mean here. Could you be more specific please? Are you saying, to give a rough example, that someone is paying a higher interest rate than they thought they were signing up to pay?

    Fraud comes in a variety of shapes and sizes...the simplest was lying on some applications about the income of the applicants to get them into loans they definitely could not afford.

    With many of the sub-prime loans, you'd get the sub-prime rate for 1 or 2 years and then it would 'adjust' to another rate down the line. Some bundlers were telling people that the early rate was X and the latter rate was Y and then submitting paperwork for X and then Z, where Z was much uglier than what they had discussed with the buyer.

    Another trick was to pretend that the buyer had made a 20% down payment by borrowing money from the seller on the hush hush which was then given back to the seller after the sale...this got many people into higher value loans than they would have otherwise.

    Check out the various class action suits against CountryWide (that' how they'll spread ya) for a complete catalog of their shenanigans.

    --not sure why you included that, I don't think anyone called you an "evictee with sour grapes"...

    Just trying to avoid an avalanche of, "you shouldn't have bought then" for merely having compassion for those that were screwed.

    Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 07:10am

  121. Is there some reason you feel the need to post in triplecate?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:12am

    Not a choice. The server I'm on sends things in three when I try to post on forums like this. Can't explain it.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/16/2009 @ 07:28am

  122. Is there some reason you feel the need to post in triplecate?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:12am

    Not a choice. The server I'm on sends things in three when I try to post on forums like this. Can't explain it.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/16/2009 @ 07:28am

  123. Is there some reason you feel the need to post in triplecate?

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:12am

    Not a choice. The server I'm on sends things in three when I try to post on forums like this. Can't explain it.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/16/2009 @ 07:28am

  124. Interesting...first?

    "no one's responded to your poll Mask...awwww..."-----Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:51pm

    ((Then when they DO....?))

    "...once you let Mask stop leading you around by the nose you'll realize you agree with me much more than you do with him..."----Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:32pm

    Don't trust urmy?...must be "controlled by Mask".

    Regardless, I think there's a "taint" (and no, not the body part) of "something not quite right" (or maybe "that IS 'Right'"), urmy.

    Not even counting the obvious "I'm going to make this MY blog" spamming and hypocrisy.

    No matter...people can judge for themselves. And I do know one thing for sure....

    you'll never put ME on Ignore...or even resist responding to me. "pwned"

    Posted by Mask at 09/16/2009 @ 07:32am

  125. Posted by Mask at 09/16/2009 @ 07:32am |

    Okay you two: don't make me stop this car!

    Mask, Urmy has done little more than parody your vigilant poster-centric style. He seems to me to be a disgruntled lefty, not a righty (though he does seem to have an almost libertarian lack of concern for the welfare of others, at times).

    Urmy, stop humping Mask's leg. It's undignified.

    Or at least make another account (Demasque?) that you use for your harassment that we can put on ignore so we can enjoy your other non-Mask-related posts.

    I know you both have more to contribute than junior high antics of the "my girl's hot, your girl's squat" variety.

    ((Watch: now they'll both 'hound' me)) :)

    Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 08:26am

  126. Not a choice. The server I'm on sends things in three when I try to post on forums like this. Can't explain it.

    Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/16/2009 @ 07:28am

    Do you work for the FDA? All paperwork had to be done in triplecate by FDA standards. They probably send all emails out in triplecate too! LOL

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 08:33am

  127. Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 08:26am

    He started it!!!!!!!

    heheh

    No, seriously, just wanted to get his goat. From now on, little point in pointing out the "urmy style" as Peter Rothberg noted didn't exist. Obvious to those who want to notice it (you did).

    Back to real, important stuff from now on.

    Posted by Mask at 09/16/2009 @ 09:09am

  128. 'And as far as equating what is unfolding about ACORN to some Republican misdeeds, if you can find me a similiar Republican organization in history that is being investigated in 14 states, has at least a few dozen people indicted for election fraud (i.e. corrupting our most essential institution), and doesn't bat an EYE when confronted with prostitution, illegal immigration of children for prostitution, cheating taxes, and as of tonight...confessing to murder, then I'd say things were about even. But frankly, there is no current equivalent to the absolutely soulless, craven, power-hungry, and immoral goings on in ACORN...of which our President was affiliated.'

    Uh, "Citizen_Carrier," ACORN did not falsify ballots. It merely stuffed voter-registration lists with non-entities such as "Mickey Mouse." Since Mickey Mouse never actually showed up to vote anywhere, ACORN never actually threatened the integrity of any election, at least not as well as Republican officials in Florida (2000) and Ohio (2004) arguably did.

    You should also be aware that there is no actual "prostitution, illegal immigration of children for prostitution, cheating taxes" and "murder" going on at ACORN. The prostitute that you see in the video is an ACTOR, and not a very good one.

    Moreover, at least one ACORN employee involved in the scandal now says she responded to this actor by treating the whole obviously false set-up as a joke.

    [For details, read "Attack Videographer Caught in Manipulation and Lies" on ACORN's website (September 15, 2009).]

    A pretty expensive joke, I must say, because it's now cost ACORN its government funding...

    Nonetheless, for all its incompetence, ACORN has never been convicted of the crimes that you mention. It therefore doesn't hold a candle to Tammany Hall.

    Posted by JakobFabian at 09/16/2009 @ 09:22am

  129. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 05:56am

    I was seconding what Denise said about urmygyro not being of the dem persuasion. He's kind of a Liv lite.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:25am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --in what way?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 09:27am

  130. Interesting...first?

    "no one's responded to your poll Mask...awwww..."-----Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 2:51pm

    ((Then when they DO....?))

    "...once you let Mask stop leading you around by the nose you'll realize you agree with me much more than you do with him..."----Posted by urmygyro at 09/15/2009 @ 3:32pm

    Don't trust urmy?...must be "controlled by Mask".

    --(IN ALL CAPS TO MAKE IT EASY TO TELL WHAT I'M ADDING NOW. WHAT YOU OMIT IS SHE'S THE ONLY ONE WHO RESPONDED TO YOU; AND LATER AGREED WITH ME! SHE'S JUST BUYING YOUR NONSENSE AND YOU KNOW IT. YOU WERE owned (lower case emphasis!) AND NOW YOU'RE TRYING TO SAVE FACE. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

    Regardless, I think there's a "taint" (and no, not the body part) of "something not quite right" (or maybe "that IS 'Right'"), urmy.

    THANK GOD YOU HAVE A MASK ON, THERE'D BE VOMIT TOO!

    Not even counting the obvious "I'm going to make this MY blog" spamming and hypocrisy.

    I HAVEN'T "SPAMMED" (I'VE HAD MANY CONVERSATIONS/DEBATES WITH PEOPLE OTHER THAN YOU...AWWW...YOU MISS THE ATTENTION...HEHEH)

    No matter...people can judge for themselves. And I do know one thing for sure....

    YES, AND NO ONE BUT DENISE29 RESPONDED TO YOUR "POLL"...PLUS, YOU STILL HAVEN'T PRODUCED ONE POST WHERE I SUPPOEDLY USE A "RIGHT-WING TALKING POINT" (FURTHER ERODING YOUR CLAIM) OUCH!

    you'll never put ME on Ignore...or even resist responding to me. "pwned"

    BY YOUR OWN IMPERMEABLE LOGIC, SINCE YOU HAVEN'T PUT ME ON IGNORE EITHER, YOU'RE OWNED TOO! TWICE, THE SAME LOGIC TO DEFEAT ESSENTIALLY THE SAME ARGUMENT. I CAN'T EVEN TAKE CREDIT ON THIS ONE, YOU'RE MAKING IT TOO EASY!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 09:35am

  131. Posted by snowball777 at 09/16/2009 @ 08:26am

    He started it!!!!!!!

    heheh

    No, seriously, just wanted to get his goat. From now on, little point in pointing out the "urmy style" as Peter Rothberg noted didn't exist. Obvious to those who want to notice it (you did).

    Back to real, important stuff from now on.

    Posted by Mask at 09/16/2009 @ 09:09am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --the Maskerade (supposedly) ends...

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 09:36am

  132. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 05:56am

    I was seconding what Denise said about urmygyro not being of the dem persuasion. He's kind of a Liv lite.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:25am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --in what way?

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 09:27am

    Urmy, haven't you understood by now that for many of these leftists, they do not tolerate any criticism of their own.

    To be an objective leftist who questions or criticizes other leftist individuals or organizations is blasphemy for them.

    They will never accept you unless you swear allegiance to all things leftist and to never criticize the left.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/16/2009 @ 09:47am

  133. Urmy/Russ is only 30.....he's a prime candidate to come over to the dark side....to find the truely tolerant liberals today, are us.............LOL!

    Posted by Happy at 09/16/2009 @ 09:59am

  134. Posted by Happy at 09/16/2009 @ 09:59am

    Yeah, you're a real "roll" model. What advantage will accrue to anyone from associating with your crusade to replace public housing with "Happy" domiciles? Keep dreaming.

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/16/2009 @ 11:23am

  135. Posted by Sorelish at 09/16/2009 @ 11:23am

    Keep in mind, HAPP is a "man of principles"...say...on the issue of deficits?--

    "I used to get concerned when deficits were running in the tens of billions....I was young.....didn't realize how confidence in America was so powerful in the world and we can export US dollars that cost next-to-nothing and roll them over and over and over....

    IF the US ever decides to be unethical, it can wipe away all foreign-held debt....that's a nuclear option surely tucked deep inside some `Emergency Plan' somewhere!"----Posted by HAPPY 09/11/2007 @ 10:22pm

    Posted by Mask at 09/16/2009 @ 11:29am

  136. Maybe someone is just allergic to nuts. I know I am. Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 01:42am

    This morning on CNN is a video that shows ACORN workers advising people on how to set up a prostitution ring. Wow. Now I'm unsure about my thoughts on this institution. Pretty skanky. I'm sure there will be more.

    It's still unclear how this would outweigh any of the also skanky behaviour by wallstreet or the guy who was caught talking about spanking, etc. (sigh) What a very strange world. Is this the real apocalypse?

    Back to the urmygyro thing. It's like Steven Colbert... the left and the right both want to take him into a training camp or something! Somebody with passion who's misunderstood by both sides. I am enjoying his posts, either way.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 11:30am

  137. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 05:56am I was seconding what Denise said about urmygyro not being of the dem persuasion. He's kind of a Liv lite. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 06:25am | ignore this person | warn this person --in what way? Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 09:27am Urmy, haven't you understood by now that for many of these leftists, they do not tolerate any criticism of their own. To be an objective leftist who questions or criticizes other leftist individuals or organizations is blasphemy for them. They will never accept you unless you swear allegiance to all things leftist and to never criticize the left. Posted by antisocialist at 09/16/2009 @ 09:47am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --criticizing Obama for being too conservative makes me "right-wing" apparently!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 11:49am

  138. Back to the urmygyro thing. It's like Steven Colbert... the left and the right both want to take him into a training camp or something! Somebody with passion who's misunderstood by both sides. I am enjoying his posts, either way. Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 11:30am | ignore this person | warn this person

    --thank you ficheye! Mask doesn't actually care what I write; he's just trying to save face that I embarassed him. As for the other posters who call me "right-wing" -- none has produced any evidence that I'm right wing, they just don't like that I criticize Obama!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 11:51am

  139. --criticizing Obama for being too conservative makes me "right-wing" apparently!

    Posted by urmygyro at 09/16/2009 @ 11:49am |

    Are you related to Robert Scheer by any chance? Read his headlining article off of TN's home page...An excerpt:

    "A president has only so much capital to expend, both in tax dollars and public tolerance, and Barack Obama is dangerously overdrawn."

    Posted by Happy at 09/16/2009 @ 11:53am

  140. Yeah, you're a real "roll" model. What advantage will accrue to anyone from associating with your crusade to replace public housing with "Happy" domiciles? Keep dreaming.

    Posted by Sorelish at 09/16/2009 @ 11:23am

    I guarantee you any of my rental properties are in better shape than any public housing of roughly the same age!

    My longest lasting tenant is a black family of 4, nearing the end of 15 years! By now, they are paying at least $200 under market which is fine w/me....it's like good credit borrowers getting lower-rate loans.

    The `magic'? MARKET Competition! I have to compete with a lot of landlords for good tenants. What's the overall reputation and physical realities of `public housing' operated as a Gubber MONOPOLY....aided by ACORN who can't wait to stuff brothels into their `communities'?

    Posted by Happy at 09/16/2009 @ 11:59am

  141. Good morning group, having fun???

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/16/2009 @ 12:40pm

  142. Happy, happy.

    You bring to mind the rap lyric: "I got my mind on my money and my money on my mind"

    Starting to concur with your thoughts about ACORN, however. It was never proven that they actually created any stolen votes, a myth basically, but the other stuff certainly casts a shadow over them.

    As long as there is corporate welfare, though, it's not quite right to pick on the small fry! We'll refer to the James Cagney movie, 'Never Steal Anything Small'.

    Posted by ficheye at 09/16/2009 @ 1:02pm

  143. ood morning group, having fun???

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/16/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Good afternoon Denise.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/16/2009 @ 3:25pm

  144. Hi wolfgang1, real interesting reading today no?

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/16/2009 @ 3:43pm

  145. 95 senators voted for the Gramm Leach Bliley bill and most honorable Billy, Bubba, Clinton signed it into law. W

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 7:57pm

  146. 95 senators voted for the Gramm Leach Bliley bill and most honorable Billy, Bubba, Clinton signed it into law. W

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 7:57pm

  147. 95 senators voted for the Gramm Leach Bliley bill and most honorable Billy, Bubba, Clinton signed it into law. W

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 7:57pm

  148. 95 senators voted for the Gramm Leach Bliley bill and most honorable Billy, Bubba, Clinton signed it into law. Watching the senate now operating on health care is strangely reminiscent of that particular moment. There seems to be such a high level of corruption, (i.e. corporate ownership of congress), that our government is incapable of acting in the interest of the greater good of the nation. I'm really disappointed in Senators; Snow and Collins. They are both my senators and I had hopes that they would have been immune from this fringe insanity.

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 8:09pm

  149. I don't have a clue why I had multiple comments posted sorry.

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 8:12pm

  150. don't have a clue why I had multiple comments posted sorry.

    Posted by julien38 at 09/16/2009 @ 8:12pm

    You're on the same server as citizen_carrier! He gets the 3:1 jackpot every time.

    Posted by sntauri at 09/16/2009 @ 9:11pm

  151. Reptiles seldom cry.

    Posted by DejaVu at 09/16/2009 @ 9:58pm

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Blogs

» The Beat

Another Helping of FDR Please | Obama should follow the New Deal president's example and make his Thanksgiving Proclamation a call for economic justice.
John Nichols
46 Comments

» Editor's Cut

Filibuster Follies | "The filibuster has become a cancer growing inside the world's greatest deliberative body."
Katrina vanden Heuvel
83 Comments

» The Notion

Bad Black Mothers | For African American women, reproduction has never been an entirely private matter.
Melissa Harris-Lacewell
95 Comments

» Act Now!

Coal Country | Stunning film reveals new dimensions to the cost of America's over-reliance on coal.
Peter Rothberg
107 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

A Kingdom of Bicycles No Longer | China's ambassador for climate change speaks on the eve of the Copenhagen summit meeting.
Robert Dreyfuss
58 Comments