Obama Organizing Advisers Rap Healthcare Push

Two former advisers to Barack Obama's presidential campaign, famed labor organizer Marshall Ganz and urban policy expert Peter Dreier, are now publicly criticizing Obama's healthcare reform strategy.

In a frank op-ed in the Washington Post on Sunday, they contrasted Obama's campaign promises of organizing and confrontation with the sometimes middling approach to mobilizing healthcare reform:

Throughout the campaign, Obama cautioned that enacting his ambitious plans would take a fight. In a speech in Milwaukee, he said: "I know how hard it will be to bring about change. Exxon Mobil made $11 billion this past quarter. They don't want to give up their profits easily."

He explained what it would take to overcome the power of entrenched interests in order to pass historic legislation. Change comes about, candidate Obama said, by "imagining, and then fighting for, and then working for, what did not seem possible before." ... But in the battle for health-care reform, the president and his allies are ignoring his own warning. The struggle for universal medical insurance... is in trouble.

For months the president insisted that any significant reform of the health-care system include a "public option" ... Republicans have made it clear that they won't support any plan that competes with the insurance industry ... In the past few weeks, Obama has hinted that he might settle for reform without a public option, thus assuaging the Baucus caucus and the insurance industry but angering many of his progressive supporters. At the same time, Obama's readiness to compromise hasn't mollified members of the small but vocal right-wing Republican network... If the unholy alliance of insurance industry muscle, conservative Democrats' obfuscation and right-wing mob tactics is able to defeat Obama's health-care proposal, it will write the conservative playbook for blocking other key components of the president's agenda -- including action on climate change, immigration reform and updates to the nation's labor laws.

The article goes on to apportion the blame widely -- not simply knocking Obama or OFA management, but also unions, liberal advocacy organizations and "netroots groups" -- and it credits conservatives for wielding stronger organizing tactics this summer. That's an especially significant argument coming from Ganz, a progressive organizing guru who has worked with everyone from Cesar Chavez to Howard Dean to Obama, including recording an endorsement for the Illinois Senator at the inception of the presidential campaign (video below). Here's the key criticism:

Once in office, the president moved quickly, announcing one ambitious legislative objective after another. But instead of launching a parallel strategy to mobilize supporters, most progressive organizations and Organizing for America -- the group created to organize Obama's former campaign volunteers -- failed to keep up. The president is not solely responsible for his current predicament; many progressives have not acknowledged their role.

Since January, most advocacy groups committed to Obama's reform objectives (labor unions, community organizations, environmentalists and netroots groups such as MoveOn) have pushed the pause button. Organizing for America, for example, encouraged Obama's supporters to work on local community service projects, such as helping homeless shelters and tutoring children. That's fine, but it's not the way to pass reform legislation...

Meanwhile, as the president's agenda emerged, his former campaign volunteers and the advocacy groups turned to politics as usual: the insider tactics of e-mails, phone calls and meetings with members of Congress. Some groups -- hoping to go toe-to-toe with the well-funded business-backed opposition -- launched expensive TV and radio ad campaigns in key states to pressure conservative Democrats. Lobbying and advertising are necessary, but they have never been sufficient to defeat powerful corporate interests.

In short, the administration and its allies followed a strategy that blurred their goals, avoided polarization, confused marketing with movement-building and hoped for bipartisan compromise that was never in the cards. This approach replaced an "outsider" mobilizing strategy that not only got Obama into the White House but has also played a key role in every successful reform movement, including abolition, women's suffrage, workers' rights, civil rights and environmental justice. Grass-roots mobilization raises the stakes, identifies the obstacles to reform and puts the opposition on the defensive. The right-wing fringe understood this simple organizing lesson and seized the momentum. Its leaders used tactics that energized their base, challenged specific elected officials and told a national story, enacted in locality after locality.

Of course, it's easier to mobilize against something than to develop an outsider-insider strategy supporting an incumbent legislative proposal and, in the case for many Obama-friendly progressives, simultaneously trying to strengthen the proposal along the way.

MoveOn, to take one example, has been trying a two-track approach. Politically, the group has largely backed the White House on healthcare. Meanwhile, organizationally, MoveOn staff have been working with their members on "Public Option NOW" events. If you believe that Obama adviser who said he was "shocked and surprised" to see a progressive fallout over the public option, however, then those efforts have not been very influential on the inside track.

Finally, it does seem like the August doldrums are renewing the progressive appetite for pushing Obama -- even the House Progressive Caucus is starting to channel its inner Evan Bayh and actually threatening to withhold votes. Just as Ganz and Dreier took their strong criticisms public, there is always the prospect that many other Obama supporters may get more vocal. Michael Huttner, who heads ProgressNow, a 2-million member netroots organization focused on state issues, has a new book out this week that aims to mobilize Obama supporters into taking more concrete action to help and push the administration during this governance period. If progressive Obama agitation moves beyond a few critics and into the broader engagement of supporters around the country, well, that's the kind of mass action that Ganz and Dreier have in mind.

Comments (123)

1. Start storming the Town Halls in DOUBLE the numbers that Glenn Beck, Limbaugh, and Fox News got, Mr Melber...and you'll get some response.

   But seems even the "netroots" were caught with their pants down on the opposition to HCR and are playing catch-up.

   There WILL be a bill...but possibly too-little-too-late for public option.

   Posted by Mask at 08/31/2009 @ 2:37pm

2. I've said it dozens of times in the past month, and I'll say it again: there's one person that needs to be convinced to put his neck on the line for true health care reform: he has a desk in the oval office; and he's not risking his 2nd term. The rest is just noise.

   Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2009 @ 2:40pm

3. When Clinton was President the excuse was that there was no filibuster-proof majority. Now there's a filibuster-proof majority. What's the excuse now?

   Posted by Mistral at 08/31/2009 @ 2:42pm

4. When Clinton was President the excuse was that there was no filibuster-proof majority. Now there's a filibuster-proof majority. What's the excuse now?

   Posted by Mistral at 08/31/2009 @ 2:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person

   --the overriding excuse seems to be change has to happen incrementally. obama realizes he doesn't have to impress the democrats and liberal voters with real change, he just has to appear less worse than the other side. Real change would mean sticking his neck out for the "undecided voters" to chop off in the next election; and like a frightened turtle, that neck is staying in the shell.

   Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2009 @ 2:58pm

5. You guys seeing the Ed Show?

   Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 5:06pm

6. The problem the left faces (and thank goodness they do), is that they will absolutely not get support from the Blue Dog Democrats for the public option or single payer.

   The Blue Dogs know that would be political suicide in 2010 and 2012.

   <SEN. KENT CONRAD (D), NORTH DAKOTA: The fact of the matter is, there are not the votes in the United States Senate for the public option. There never have been. So, to continue to chase that rabbit I think is just a wasted effort.

   OLBERMANN: But right now, I mean, our friend Nate is not exactly bad in his number crunching over the years. He counts 43 possibly, possibly as low as 41 firm votes supporting public option in the Senate, and we have Anthony Weiner's remarks that a hundred House Democrats are willing to walk away if it is not in the bill. We know the letter was signed by 57 of them.

   Is this not the rock and the hard place mathematically?>

   http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/32462026

   <Fri Aug 28, 2009 at 14:24 Today's whip count update

   The new whip count chart can be found in the extended entry. Potential Supporters

   Yes: 44

   Won't Vote Against: 1

   Maybe: 14

   No: 2

   Vacancies: 1>

   http://tinyurl.com/lmw574

   Posted by antisocialist at 08/31/2009 @ 5:16pm

7. How could this President and his inner circle run such a well-organized, thought out, concise and calm election campaign - one that always seemed a step ahead of his competition and then take office and turn this issue into an episode of the Keystone Kops? How can you ever hope to change and reform something this significant to our country by trying to take this hodgepodge of ideas and hopes, with four or five health bills floating between the House, Senate and Oval Office, and even think of having our representatives discuss and enlighten us to the great advantages to our lives when they (Dems) cannot even agree among themselves which bill would eventually be the final offer. How could they not expect the GOP to try to upend the bill by every means possible. That is their comfort zone. The GOP is at its best when not in power and being perceived as the underdog. Even with specious arguments they are showing themselves to be a greater communicator to the masses than the Great Orator himself. We are watching this organizational machine disintegrate because our president cannot or refuses to communicate to his people. It is confusing watching him at the sidelines of this topic when he should be in the huddle calling the plays, taking his arguments for ONE plan to the people and explaining to them exactly what this plan means to our country and to them individually. Where is that guy? What's fettering him? Who or what is holding him back? We need to know facts upfront, right away instead of having the dribs and drabs leak out to be pounced upon by his opposition. There is a lot of discussion just how stupid and disingenuous people like Grassley and Boehner and their ilk have been but who is really the dumbass when you allow it to sink to these levels?

   Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/31/2009 @ 5:19pm

8. As a side note, the word "rap" should not be used in titles or headlines unless the subject is "Snoop Dogg" or similar.

   Posted by syfriendly at 08/31/2009 @ 5:21pm

9. You guys seeing the Ed Show?

   Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 5:06pm

   That poor excuse for a comedy show posing as a News/opinion program?

   Posted by antisocialist at 08/31/2009 @ 5:26pm

10. Not Rush Limppaw, Ed Schultz.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 6:14pm

11. "While the First New Deal of 1933 had broad support from most sectors, the Second New Deal challenged the business community. Conservative Democrats, led by Al Smith, fought back with the American Liberty League, savagely attacking Roosevelt and equating him with Marx and Lenin.[59] But Smith overplayed his hand, and his boisterous rhetoric let Roosevelt isolate his opponents and identify them with the wealthy vested interests that opposed the New Deal, setting Roosevelt up for the 1936 landslide.[60] By contrast, the labor unions, energized by the Wagner Act, signed up millions of new members and became a major backer of Roosevelt's reelections in 1936, 1940 and 1944.[61]"

    http://tinyurl.com/n8sgb

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 6:16pm

12. Not Rush Limppaw, Ed Schultz.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 6:14pm

    I knew who I was talking about. The joker who calls himself Ed Schultz. He is a complete idiot.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/31/2009 @ 7:17pm

13. Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/31/2009 @ 5:19pm

    Good questions. My opinion is that it is a case of Obama and crew knowing what they really want and getting tripped up on how to implement it by hiding the details in 1018 pages of legalese. What they want is universal coverage (including illegals), single payer, funded by steeply progressive income taxes, fees, high subsidies via means testing, cost controls through comparative effectiveness committees and just plain dictation of compensation rates, and significant social engineering via community organizations. They just can't come out and say this is what were going to do, so they put a lot of wild-eyed staffers and rent-a-lawyers on it and come up with HR3200, which is just a down payment on the grand vision. The same process will unfold for Immigration Reform (trust me, its not amnesty!).

    Posted by sntauri at 08/31/2009 @ 7:30pm

14. If the public option is defeated, it will be because Obama did not fight to get one passed. If the public option is passed, it will be because of Howard Dean.

    The progressive groups may have erred in some minor ways in terms of tactics. But you can't expect people to go door-to-door pushing for a public option when the president has already proclaimed it's not important to him and surrendered to the right.

    Posted by mspiggy at 08/31/2009 @ 7:32pm

15. Where were these "experts" two months ago ? I am tired of these types of guys. Anybody that watched and listened to the message that was coming out of the Administration knew its message was going in 6 directions. This sounds like Tom Daschle who was advising Obama,the health care boys,and anybody that would pay him. He wanted to write the legislation or at least consult on it. Every day a new message sent by a different messenger came out. I read about Emanuel being such a powerful chief of staff for Obama. At the rate of commentary coming out of the White House I thought he was being paid per idea. Yet no one stopped the nonsense then. The Democrats let a committee chairman try to sabotage health care reform from within. I think the corporate interests have been playing the game so well that no one noticed the sound of the strings. Don't worry the President has helped corporate interests at a lot of junctures here . Look at appointments and the people being consulted. Ganz and Dreier are pissed off they were not in the first wave of people consulted. Lets stop the BS and do thew right thing for the people . I just want Washington to really understand how closely they are being watched from all areas of the political spectrum.

    Posted by whatizz at 08/31/2009 @ 9:52pm

16. Where's the Dems' big guy? Why isn't Bill Clinton campaigning for universal health care insurance?

    Might it be because he too would like to see Obama fail? And Hillary launch a primary challenge in '12?

    Obama is helping them dig his own political grave.

    Go Joe Kennedy. Run for the Senate & embarrass Obama into action ... if it isn't too late.

    Posted by sloper at 08/31/2009 @ 10:10pm

17. Why isn't Bill Clinton campaigning for universal health care insurance?

    Posted by sloper at 08/31/2009 @ 10:10pm

    Maybe the same reason less than half of the appointed positions are filled?

    While I absolutely believe Magic ain't all that smart, I do respect Clinton's intelligence; it takes one to know one, if you know what I mean....:)

    Posted by Happy at 08/31/2009 @ 10:41pm

18. The progressive groups may have erred in some minor ways in terms of tactics. But you can't expect people to go door-to-door pushing for a public option when the president has already proclaimed it's not important to him and surrendered to the right.

    Posted by mspiggy at 08/31/2009 @ 7:32pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --don't let chaoszen read that: you might be held responsible for a suicide!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/31/2009 @ 11:09pm

19. The Obamanation that makes desolation is fulfilling his destiny and will end his only term with the charisma of Jimmy Carter all while finding the low water mark of a historical 1st and last regressive presidency.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/31/2009 @ 11:30pm

20. Not Rush Limppaw, Ed Schultz.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/31/2009 @ 6:14pm

    I knew who I was talking about. The joker who calls himself Ed Schultz. He is a complete idiot.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/31/2009 @ 7:17pm

    High praise coming from anti-logic himself: translation- Ed's a genius when it comes to decoding the new con repub reverse upside down/inside out preverted machinations.

    Sweet!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 12:58am

21. Bill Clinton Campaigns for Health Care Reform

    August 3, 2009 2:52 PM

    In a message sent to supporters of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, former President Bill Clinton, who failed in his own efforts to reform health care, pressed for success this time around and called for donations to support the Health Care Reform Now campaign.

    The campaign is part of the DCCC's agenda and is aimed at obtaining financial support for the Obama administration's health care reform. The DCCC is trying to raise $250,000 in donations by midnight Aug. 4, 2009.

    Titled "1993," Mr. Clinton's message discussed the health care campaign in time of his own presidency. The former president noted that President Obama is facing opposition to his own health care agenda similar to what Mr. Clinton faced in 1993. He argued that Mr. Obama is going up against special interest groups and their Republican supporters who have "launched a furious campaign to preserve the status quo."

    08-13-09 11:02 PM PITTSBURGH --

    In a speech rallying progressives to make one last major push to pass health care reform, former President Bill Clinton accused Republicans of propagating a campaign of disinformation reminiscent of the effort to bring down his own attempt at reform.

    "Do you want to go through that again?" the 42nd President asked the crowd of bloggers, online activists, and a slew of Democratic lawmakers at the Netroots Nation convention in Pittsburgh. "Of course you don't. I'm telling you no matter how low they drive support for this with misinformation, the minute the president signs a health care reform bill his approval will go up. Secondly, within a year, when all those bad things they say will happen don't happen, and all the good things happen, approval will explode."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 01:06am

22. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ss_mUjre5Kw

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 01:06am

23. POSTED: 07/27/09

    Former President Bill Clinton told a group of public health officials in Washington Monday that as a "member of the peanut gallery" viewing the posturing over health care reform, he sees "eerily familiar" political arguments getting in the way of progress on one of the most serious issues facing the nation.

    "I can see who the baseball manager is sending up to bat, and what the other team is doing to strike him out, and I don't like it," Clinton said.

    Clinton told attendees at the "Weight of the Nation" conference, sponsored by the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and other agencies, that he hadn't come to give a speech on health care reform, "since that's above my pay grade now." But as he discussed public health and the costs of obesity to families and communities, health care reform was not far from his train of thought.

    Clinton called the problems in health care "a delivery system issue" and framed the current debate on Capitol Hill as between people who want to change a broken system and people who "give aid and comfort to the status quo."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 01:11am

24. When Clinton was President the excuse was that there was no filibuster-proof majority. Now there's a filibuster-proof majority. What's the excuse now?

    Posted by Mistral at 08/31/2009 @ 2:42pm

    $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$

    Posted by frosty zoom at 09/01/2009 @ 01:34am

25. Posted by BigPasture at 08/31/2009 @ 11:30pm

    "1st and last", RIO?

    "permanent majority" after Obama? I remember an ex-exterminator who thought the same way once!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 09/01/2009 @ 07:32am

26. Has there been any progress on this healthcare thing (other than the Bush prescription drug plan) in the past twenty or so years?

    Posted by Mistral at 09/01/2009 @ 1:02pm

27. Posted by Mistral at 09/01/2009 @ 1:02pm

    Uh, Mistral...didn't the GOP control Congress for 12 of that? And Repub Presidents for 12 other years or combinations thereof?

    Posted by Mask at 09/01/2009 @ 1:50pm

28. The problem the left faces (and thank goodness they do), is that they will absolutely not get support from the Blue Dog Democrats for the public option or single payer.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/31/2009 @ 5:16pm

    You are thanking goodness that millions of Americans will go without adequate healthcare. I find that pretty slimy for a so-called Christian whose only dog in this fight is that he doesn't personally use the insurance or healthcare system.

    Do you TRULY think Jesus would be on the side of the insurance companies and their profits? Or are you just another of those neocon Republicans who hides behind Jesus and uses his teachings only when it's convenient to your political viewpoint?

    Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 09/01/2009 @ 1:53pm

29. Bill Clinton Campaigns for Health Care Reform

    August 3, 2009 2:52 PM

    In a message sent to supporters of the Democratic Congressional Campaign Committee, former President Bill Clinton, who failed in his own efforts to reform health care, pressed for success this time around and called for donations to support the Health Care Reform Now campaign...

    In a speech rallying progressives to make one last major push to pass health care reform, former President Bill Clinton accused Republicans of propagating a campaign of disinformation reminiscent of the effort to bring down his own attempt at reform.

    "Do you want to go through that again?" the 42nd President asked the crowd of bloggers, online activists, and a slew of Democratic lawmakers at the Netroots Nation convention in Pittsburgh.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 01:06am

    Okay, this is humorous.

    Preaching to the chior of donors, bloggers, activists, and Democrat lawmakers is definitely NOT campaigning for healthcare.

    Shaking these people down for donations is not campaigning for healthcare. Campaigning for healthcare requires generating support by getting those opposed to your solution to change their opinions and support your cause.

    How many of the donors, bloggers, activists and Democrat lawmakers that Clinton spoke to oppose single payer? If you guessed none, you'd be correct.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 1:53pm

30. You are thanking goodness that millions of Americans will go without adequate healthcare.

    Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 09/01/2009 @ 1:53pm

    On The Beat thread I tried to get a discussion going around the topic of heuristics. Basically, blind spots or biased stereotypes that people use but are unaware of.

    For instance. There ways to deliver adequate healthcare to the millions of people that do not involve single payer or the public option. I've mentioned that a dozen times on these pages, yet you retain this "irrational" attachment to single payer or public option. ("Irrational" isn't meant to be inflamatory; it is meant to highlight the connection to the heuristics topic.)

    This is a gross overgeneralization. If I had more time I could be more nuanced, but I'm late for a meeting.

    That said, there is some truth to the statement that your side is more interested in promoting collectivsm than you are interested in delivering healthcare to the millions of unisured.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 2:02pm

31. The mistake made by the Clinton administration is being duplicated by the Obama administration. Each wanted it all, now, no compromise - as a result they get nothing - again. Major changes in health care must be done incrementally, seeing what works and doesn't work as we go along. It is such a complex issue that one size will never fit all. The ultimate goal is that everyone is covered but you must have the right number of doctors and nurses to support it. I think President Truman made that a requirement when this was proposed back in his time. Wise man.

    Posted by pyeatte at 09/01/2009 @ 3:51pm

32. Okay, this is humorous.

    How many of the donors, bloggers, activists and Democrat lawmakers that Clinton spoke to oppose single payer? If you guessed none, you'd be correct. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009

    Er, you seriously want to try and convince the insane new con repub far right of anything other than kill kill kill?

    That's somewhat sweet, but also entirely insane.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 5:21pm

33. Er, you seriously want to try and convince the insane new con repub far right of anything other than kill kill kill?

    That's somewhat sweet, but also entirely insane.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 5:21pm

    No, you need to convince the 39% who are independents. You are never going to convince the Republicans.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 5:28pm

34. No one that is a clear thinker could have believed the economy could be in as bad a shape as it was left by George and Dick. I am in fly over land,(Minnesota) so if I did not have the resources available "Open Secrets", I wouldn't know how much money was going to different members of Congress. It is amazing to me that the Conrad's,Grassley's,and Max Baucus can be getting millions of dollars for their campaigns. At the same time I cannot reconcile in my mind how anyone from any political persuasion can accept what is happening to the American people in the overall "scheme" relating to health care in America. Greed seems to have no boundaries. How can 70+% of bankruptcies in this country be as a result of health care costs/catastrophic illness. There shopuld be no divide in this country. This group of corporate fat cats and their cronies (board of directors), should be shown the door hat in hand with an itemized bill and payment plan for them to pay back the American consumer. Bill Clinton should simply go away. I call him "dollar" Bill. He sold the American worker out and we are seeing the result of his policies now. Disastrous foreign trade deficits. Ido not know whether to laugh or crey about Boeing sahipping jobs to China. First it was buying Hummer for the technology, now it is Boeing. International corporate profit continually is making us weaker. Why we are worrying about Iran or Syria in the dog eat dog wqorld of the Middle East and shrugging our shoulders at China's moves is beyond me.

    Posted by whatizz at 09/01/2009 @ 9:56pm

35. Say what you want about Ed . He has been consistent about the health care theft in this country for months. If Obama was as consistent as Ed, with his gift for wordsmithing this debate would be over.

    Posted by whatizz at 09/01/2009 @ 10:34pm

36. 08/31/2009 4:59 PM

    Dealers Still Waiting For Clunker Cash

    (by) Don Jorgensen

    ....During the month long program, Billion Automotive sold close to a thousand vehicles but has only been reimbursed for 272 of them. Vern Eide sold over 200 cars and has only been paid for 27 of them, and that's fueling lots of concerns in the auto industry.

    .....owner Dave Billion is still waiting for the rest of his money from the government run program, $3.2 million.

    ......though Billion is beginning to get some of his reimbursement money, he's still concerned because he says there doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason to the program.

    When Cash for Clunkers was first announced, dealers were supposed to be reimbursed within 10 days of a sale. Billion says that hasn't happened.

    "The program started in July and we haven't gotten paid for cars we sold back then, but then on the other hand we got paid for a car we sold last week. They don't have an accurate format. It's not like they're taking the first deals that were submitted and working those. I don't know how they're doing it, no idea. I know it's very random" Billion said....

    "We had a situation where we had a submission, they rejected it for multiple reasons. We didn't see anything wrong with it, so we resubmitted it. They rejected, we resubmitted it. They rejected it, seven times and finally they paid it, and we never changed a single thing on it," Billion said.

    But Billion thinks he'll get his money eventually, it just may take longer than what the government first said.

    ===================================

    Imagine the Gubbers ran your healthcare this way!! If you're indestructible, think about your Golden Years! Should we laugh or cry about the SAME submission Billion did 7 times?

    Posted by Happy at 09/01/2009 @ 11:02pm

37. No, you need to convince the 39% who are independents. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 5:28pm

    What do you think:

    Pew Research Center Poll. Aug. 14-17, 2009.

    "From what you know, do you think it is true or not true that the health care legislation will create these so called 'death panels'?"

    ________________True__Not True__Unsure

    ALL______________30_____50_____20

    Republicans________ 47_____ 30 ____ 23

    Democrats_________ 20_____64_____16

    Independents_______ 28_____ 51_____21

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 11:06pm

38. "From what you know, do you think it is true or not true that the health care legislation will create these so called 'death panels'?"

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 11:06pm

    That's a bullshit question so results are meaningless. Try, "Do you support government takeover of healthcare?"

    You know the answer is "no".

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 06:31am

39. How can 70+% of bankruptcies in this country be as a result of health care costs/catastrophic illness?

    Posted by whatizz at 09/01/2009 @ 9:56pm

    They can't. The statistic you are quoting has been maniputlated.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 06:35am

40. Posted by pyeatte at 09/01/2009 @ 3:51pm

    Actually Obama IS compromising (see politico.com today) and WILL get a bill.

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 07:17am

41. That's a bullshit question so results are meaningless. Try, "Do you support government takeover of healthcare?"

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 06:31am

    Talk about a bullshit question.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 07:55am

42. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 07:55am

    Any doubt Darin LOVED it that the idea of "death panels" was floating about...despite his claim that it's "bullshit" now?

    He'd accept b.s. if it furthered his cause.

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 08:15am

43. CBS News Poll. Aug. 27-31, 2009. N=1,097 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3 (for all adults).

    "Regardless of how you usually vote, who do you think has better ideas about reforming the health care system: Barack Obama, or the Republicans in Congress?"

    Date______Barack Obama__Repubs in Congress

    8/27-31/09______50_________23

    "Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government-administered health insurance plan -- something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get -- that would compete with private health insurance plans?"

    Date_________Favor______Oppose

    8/27-31/09_____60_________34

    "Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government-administered health insurance plan that would compete with private health insurance plans?" N=540 (Form B)

    Date_________Favor_____Oppose

    8/27-31/09 ____ 53________ 36

    "Some lawmakers have proposed requiring health insurance companies to cover anyone who applies for health insurance regardless of whether or not they have an existing medical condition or a prior illness. Do you approve or disapprove of requiring health insurance companies to cover anyone who applies?"

    Date_______Approve___Disapprove

    8/27-31/09____79________16

    "Would you approve or disapprove of the government setting limits on the amount that health insurance companies can charge people for insurance premiums, co-pays, and out-of-pocket expenses?"

    Date_______Approve___Disapprove

    8/27-31/09____72_______23

    "Would you approve or disapprove of the government providing subsidies to help low-income people buy their own health insurance from private insurance companies?"

    Date_______Approve___Disapprove

    8/27-31/09____71_______22

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 08:15am

44. He'd accept b.s. if it furthered his cause.

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 08:15am

    I get that, but why does it 'all' have to be B.S.? A little every once and a while can be funny. But so so much and the unrelenting continuous stinky pile of manure on top of another putrid pile of manure on top of another pile... ad infinitum, will take a toll.

    Creating their reality I believe it's called. A messy business when left to bottom feeders.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 08:27am

45. "SLIP SLIDING AWAY: OBAMA APPROVAL AT 45%... "

    "WSJ: Growing Government Role Fuels Anger... "

    "IT'S OFFICIAL: NO PUBLIC OPTION FROM OBAMA... "

    ----------------------------------------------------

    Whats happening here? Whats up with the polls?

    Bushfools?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/02/2009 @ 08:53am

46. The White House did not get out-organized; that is not what happened, and is not the problem. The belief that it is, reveals the socialists mind-set which for the last hundred years has sought to intimidate and overwhelm opposing views through mass demonstrations of worker solidarity.

    What happened is that Americans became suspicious of their community organizers. They see Obama, who had a 70 favorable poll rating, turning into a rabble rouser, calling opponents -- fearmongers using scare tactics. He's turned shrill, angry and frantic. He pulls out a letter from a befuddled old woman confused about Medicare , and pretends she proved seniors are idiots and their opposition to his program is ridiculous.

    Maybe raging at Bush across six years for believing Saddam had WMD, was not such a good idea. Because now when the president lies about the public option, claims spending cuts when he is adding a trillion in costs, denies death panels, when he himself argued for experts to decide who gets care and who doesn't (April interview with David Leonheardt, NYTimes) etc., it is easy to see the president as a huckster, to be distrusted and reviled.

    He has not been out-organized, he has been out-talked by his own mouth. He has gone too far out to the left. A swelling central govt curling around everyone indicates over-organizing. Relentlessly piling on the debt suggest under-estimating people's genuine concern at the deficits.

    Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 09/02/2009 @ 09:43am

47. If President Obama wants to get his HCR ideas realized, or at least partially realized, he needs to do two things.

    First, he needs to address the nation from the Oval office, as he is already planning to do, but in a conciliatory manner. People are outraged. He very much needs to chastise Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid and any other politico from the left who catagorized the town hall people as Nazis, mobs or thugs. He must appeal to these people's sense of generosity because their pockets are the one's he is planning to pick to pay for his ambitious reform.

    There is already a realization on most people of the need for some HC reform. He needs to announce that he is deep-sixing the public option idea and replacing it with a strengthening of Medicare and Medicaid to allow for the coming influx of baby-boomers, an end to denials from insurance companies because of 'prior condition', a voluntary catastriphic federal insurance policy at a modest fixed premium and enactment of tort reform to save a trillion in unnessary testing over the next ten years.

    This will bring the blue-dog dems and moderated conservatives on board. These people already agree that reform is imparative.

    Secondly, President Obama must get a handle on the mood of the countary. It's not Exxon's profits he should be worried about, it's the debt because of his own policies that people are afraid of. Nobody wants to buy a lemon. If he decides to exclude republicans and go it alone on health care then there will be hell to pay at the polls in 2010. That's a guaranteed outcome.

    If the president does those two things he will have a fighting chance to raise his poll numbers and enact policy. He should also spend a lot of time on Bill O'reilly's Factor. That's where the ratings are.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/02/2009 @ 10:12am

48. Whats happening here? Whats up with the polls?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 09/02/2009 @ 08:53am

    Nothing YJma, you're on crack?

    http://www.pollingreport.com/obama_job.htm

    Lowest job approval I see is 50%, but Obama's negative's are lower than FDR's were when FDR's positives were at 50% too.

    Are you creating a singular reality there YJma?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 10:16am

49. Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 09/02/2009 @ 09:43am

    Er, you seriously want to try and convince the insane new con repub far right of anything other than kill kill kill?

    That's somewhat sweet, but also entirely insane.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 5:21pm

    No, you need to convince the 39% who are independents. You are never going to convince the Republicans.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 5:28pm

    What do you think:

    Pew Research Center Poll. Aug. 14-17, 2009.

    "From what you know, do you think it is true or not true that the health care legislation will create these so called 'death panels'?"

    ________________True__Not True__Unsure

    ALL______________30_____50_____20

    Republicans________ 47_____ 30 ____ 23

    Democrats_________ 20_____64_____16

    Independents_______ 28_____ 51_____21

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 11:06pm

    Didn't we already have that conversation?

    OHhh, same 'different' conversation, but of course...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 10:59am

50. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 08:27am

    hsuB,

    You've got the President, you've got the House, and you've got a super majority in the Senate. But you don't have single payer and you don't have public option. You are not close to getting either. The issues are as dead as a doornail for the indefinate future. There is no hope what-so-ever of either of these policies being enacted in the forseeable future.

    Why?

    Republicans lies? Corporate donations? The Oligarchy that controls America? Or if you are Cynthia McKinny, the JOOS? These are the conspiracy theories you tell yourself to avoid facing the truth.

    You aren't going to get it because you lack public support. Poll questions about death panels or government take over or non-specific healthcare reform are meaningless.

    The public does not support single payer and the public does not support public options (a.k.a. single payer by stealth).

    Period. End of story.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:02am

51. Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/02/2009 @ 10:12am

    Posted by Hugo_Pirovano at 09/02/2009 @ 09:43am

    Er, you seriously want to try and convince the insane new con repub far right of anything other than kill kill kill?

    That's somewhat sweet, but also entirely insane.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 5:21pm

    No, you need to convince the 39% who are independents. You are never going to convince the Republicans.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 5:28pm

    What do you think:

    Pew Research Center Poll. Aug. 14-17, 2009.

    "From what you know, do you think it is true or not true that the health care legislation will create these so called 'death panels'?"

    ________________True__Not True__Unsure

    ALL______________30_____50_____20

    Republicans________ 47_____ 30 ____ 23

    Democrats_________ 20_____64_____16

    Independents_______ 28_____ 51_____21

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/01/2009 @ 11:06pm

    Didn't we already have that conversation?

    OHhh, same 'different' conversation, but of course...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 10:59am | ignore this person | warn this person

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 11:02am

52. The public does not support single payer and the public does not support public options (a.k.a. single payer by stealth) . Period. End of story.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:02am

    Hey dumbass can you read?:

    "Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government-administered health insurance plan -- something like the Medicare coverage that people 65 and older get -- that would compete with private health insurance plans?"

    Date_________Favor______Oppose

    8/27-31/09_____60_________34

    "Would you favor or oppose the government offering everyone a government-administered health insurance plan that would compete with private health insurance plans?"

    Date_________Favor_____Oppose

    8/27-31/09 ____ 53________ 36

    Last I understood 60 > 34 and 53 > 36.

    Or were you taught Karl Rovian math?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 11:11am

53. If President Obama wants to get his HCR ideas realized, or at least partially realized, he needs to do two things.

    First, he needs to address the nation from the Oval office...

    Secondly, President Obama must get a handle on the mood of the countary.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 09/02/2009 @ 10:12am

    No! If he wants it, he needs to create public support.

    For instance President Bush wanted to eliminate Saddam so he highlighted the facts that presented his case in the most favorable light. And when he finished there was 70% support among the general public for invading Iraq. (hsuB, the poll question was, "Do you favor invading Iraq?" not, "Do you like war?" or "Do you like Saddam?")

    Do you favor Single Payer? No 70%; Do you favor Public Option?" No 65%.

    If President Obama wants either of these two he has to change those numbers, not ask, "Do you feel bad that some people can't afford healthcare?"

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:12am

54. Hey hsuB is you think your question are sysnonomous with single payer and public option why don't they say single payer and public option?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:14am

55. Rasmussan has a poll out saying 50% trust Republicans more than Democrats to handle healthcare.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:16am

56. Oh yeah, hsuB, ask you question do you support this know it will cost an extra $2 Trillion dollars unless the federal government dramatically scales back the Medicare program?

    Do you still think you have 53% support?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:18am

57. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 08:27am

    DTT used a "Hitler" reference on the other thread....he talks "high brow", but loves the "Glenn Beck" stuff if it works.

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 11:19am

58. Posted by YourJomamma at 09/02/2009 @ 08:53am

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:16am

    Don't you guys ever get a LITTLE suspicious that a "un-biased pollster" like Scott Rasmussen..

    A. Goes on Sean Hannity and agrees with practically everything he says?

    B. Tells you EXACTLY what you want to hear????

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 11:20am

59. hsuB,

    According to the OMB this is our choice. So find a poll question that asks: "Do you favor single payer or public option knowing that it will cost an additional $2 trillion over the next decade unless dramtic cuts are made to Medicare?"

    Ask that poll question and you are dealing with reality. Ask questions about death pannels or benefits that don't have associated costs, or how people feel about the unisured and you are asking meaningless questions.

    Ask the poll question, "Would you like a new car?" You'll get 80% yes. Does that mean 80% will buy a new car this year?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:26am

60. Speaking of poll data, let's do one of our own.

    Rightwingers are in a constant state of road rage. They are disgruntled losers, alienated from their society & cannot stop comparing Barack Obama to Adolph Hitler. They make no bones about it in the broadcast anal leakages of Glenn Beck that trickles down to un-accomplished, feral grunts who act out in town halls.

    Our poll question du jour: Who sounds more like Adolph Hitler? Why?

    ___ B-Obama (from www.barackobama.com):

    "Making sure every American has access to high quality health care is one of the most important challenges of our time. The number of uninsured Americans is growing, premiums are skyrocketing, and more people are being denied coverage every day. A moral imperative by any measure, a better system is also essential to rebuilding our economy -- we want to make health insurance work for people & businesses, not just insurance & drug companies."

    ___ Rightwinger YOURJOMAMA angering at the world (from Feb. 2009):

    "(THEY) enter the country or live there and breed like crazy...Europe is hitting 25% Islamic soon, and US is hitting 35% Hispanic...PLUS..they are draining the social system of cash and resources while putting nothing back in of equal or greater values...plus being illiterate in their own language, the added pressure of the host country to "help" them is over bearing... ..add to this the fact that the liberals in the host country actually sue in court to give the invaders(un resticted and illegal immigrants) more rights than the host citizens, like push 1 for English and native language voting ballots, in state tuition...it won't take long and the Israelis will be voted out of their own country..legaly.. learn from the Muslims in Europe and the Mexicans in the US how to invade..

    Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 09/02/2009 @ 11:30am

61. The only poll question that matters is, "What are you willing to pay for?".

    Now a lot of people here don't really pay a lot of taxes so they may think the question is, "What are you willing to make other people pay for?" or "How willing are you to be generous with other people's money?"

    Effectively the people who don't pay tax are all the ones who already support single payer. If President Obama wants single payer he needs to convince the people who pay taxes to support it, not the people who read The Nation.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:31am

62. *"DEATH PANEL" DeLAY & RIGHTWING RELATIVISM*

    "…The patient then was a 65-year-old drilling contractor, badly injured in a freak accident at his home. Among the family members keeping vigil at Brooke Army Medical Center was a grieving junior congressman - Rep. Tom DeLay (R-Texas).

    More than 16 years ago, far from the political passions that have defined the Schiavo controversy, the DeLay family endured its own wrenching end-of-life crisis. The man in a coma, kept alive by intravenous lines and oxygen equipment, was DeLay's father, Charles Ray DeLay… Today, as House Majority Leader, DeLay has teamed with his Senate counterpart, Bill Frist (R-Tenn.), to champion political intervention in the Schiavo case. They pushed emergency legislation through Congress to shift the legal case from Florida state courts to the federal judiciary…DeLay has denounced Schiavo's husband, as well as judges, for committing what he calls "an act of barbarism" in removing the tube. In 1988, however, there was no such fiery rhetoric as the congressman quietly joined the sad family consensus to let his father die.

    "There was no point to even really talking about it," Maxine DeLay, the congressman's 81-year-old widowed mother, recalled in an interview last week. "There was no way [Charles] wanted to live like that. Tom knew - we all knew - his father wouldn't have wanted to live that way." Doctors advised that he would "basically be a vegetable," said the congressman's aunt, JoAnne DeLay. When his father's kidneys failed, the DeLay family decided against connecting him to a dialysis machine. "Extraordinary measures to prolong life were not initiated," said his medical report, citing "agreement with the family's wishes." His bedside chart carried the instruction: "Do not resuscitate."...

    Posted by PhilMcCrevice at 09/02/2009 @ 11:38am

63. Hey hsuB is you think your question are sysnonomous with single payer and public option why don't they say single payer and public option? Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 11:14am

    Yes. But if you only look at your own spin you will get a distorted point of view.

    Rasm's polling methodology has been criticized for years. That's why only far right new con repubs use it.

    "As has been true since last October, the majority of the public (56 percent) says that health care reform is more important now than ever before. Four in ten, in contrast, say we cannot afford to take on reform now given the nation's economic troubles. There remain stark partisan splits on this issue, with seven in ten Democrats backing reform now and six in ten Republicans taking the opposite view. Political independents tilt the balance by backing reform now 54 percent to 42 percent who say we can't afford it.

    The public plan option – cause of much discussion and disagreement on Capitol Hill – is backed by a solid majority of Americans in the current poll (59 percent). Consistent with the pattern of softening of support laid out above, however, this is down from 67 percent in April.

    Americans' views on the topic remain malleable, as demonstrated by the results of argument testing embedded in the survey. When supporters are read arguments commonly heard in the debate, such as that the plan might give the government an unfair advantage over private companies, or that it might be the first step toward "single-payer, government-run health care," overall support falls roughly 20 to 25 percentage points. Alternatively, arguments about how a public plan could increase choice or lower costs boost support to roughly seven in ten."

    http://www.kff.org/kaiserpolls/upload/7945.pd

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 11:43am

64. The only poll question that matters is, "What are you willing to pay for?".

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009

    No-- it's 'HOW' are you willing to pay.

    If Obama punctures that bubble with the already out there "250K or more tax reestablished rate a la the '90's (?), then it's good times.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 11:47am

65. President Obama (D), House Leader Nancy Pelosi (D), Senate Leader with super majority Harry Reid (D) and, you claim, overwhelming public support.

    So why isn't it going to happen?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 12:32pm

66. So why isn't it going to happen? Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 12:32pm

    Your prediction?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 12:34pm

67. Another prediction closer to home...

    "I can't tell you how comprehensive it will be, but I do believe something will get passed," said Representative Michael Arcuri, a second-term Blue Dog Democrat from New York.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:13pm

68. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:13pm

    HSUB, I would get very nervous about YOU...

    predicting something!

    heheh

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 1:24pm

69. Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 1:24pm

    Yeah, sometimes the best way to stop something is to predict it...

    Another prediction:

    "Representative David Scott of Georgia, said his determination to enact a health care overhaul had been increased over the recess because of what he called the spread of misinformation and other unfair tactics engaged in by the opposition. "I think now more than ever we must get strong in our resolve to pass health care insurance reform legislation."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:30pm

70. And sometimes it's not.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:32pm

71. And yet another:

    "I've heard too many stories of Iowans who can't afford health insurance, or can't get coverage for the care they need," said Representative Leonard L. Boswell, a Blue Dog member from that state. "I support a public option so that we can bring down the costs of premiums and curb the inflation of health care costs."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:47pm

72. "But Ms. Herseth Sandlin, while not ruling out the idea of a public plan, said Democrats needed to think strategically, decide on the limits of a plan that can attract majority support and revisit the issue in the future if they cannot achieve all they want now.

    "We have to be pragmatic and forge some deal that moves us in a positive direction," she said. "We have expended unnecessary energy on elements of the plan that I don't think are essential. I remain optimistic that when we come back in September, we will recognize how important it is to get half a loaf."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:51pm

73. How come you lost?

    The other side cheated.

    Really? You weren't even close. You lost by 5 touchdowns.

    What's you point?

    **********************************

    The point is you are deluding youself. You fail to generate broad public support for single payer or the public option (a.k.a. single payer by stealth) and you are blaming it on Palin and Grassley mentioning death panels. You think the mention of death panels that got your side and the media hysterical about Republican lies made the difference for the 39% of independents?

    That is what is known as a comforting excuse.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 2:07pm

74. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 2:07pm

    And that why they call it LA-LA Land...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 2:09pm

75. Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 1:47pm

    No bill is what the Hard Right (most of our RW bloggers here) wants...

    Repubs want a bill too, just more "friendly" to Big Insurance.

    "The Nation" and the progressives will bitch over it being "weak"...but "weak and something to run on in 2010" is better than "nothing and a GOP Congress in 2010".

    Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 2:52pm

76. Posted by Mask at 09/02/2009 @ 2:52pm

    I'd like to see Obama hit the opposition over the head with the facts in a clear and methodical way that makes all their voodoo straw dolls flame up in the light of day.

    As long as the healthcare reform is fair, arguments against it in the long run will go the way of those against medicare.

    And I thing the far right dodo's know it. Remeber how flustered Army got when Maddow confronted him with his support for a medicare/social security recall.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 3:20pm

77. And I thing the far right dodo's know it. Remeber how flustered Army got when Maddow confronted him with his support for a medicare/social security recall.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 3:20pm

    He didn't get flustered, he knocked her argument back into the hole it belongs to.

    He correctly noted that she wants to FORCE people to participate in Medicare even if they don't want to.

    Posted by antisocialist at 09/02/2009 @ 3:54pm

78. I'd like to see Obama hit the opposition over the head with the facts in a clear and methodical way that makes all their voodoo straw dolls flame up in the light of day.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 3:20pm

    What facts are you talking about? I know as many healthcare facts as you; probably more since to become an actury you need pass an exam on social insurance that examines Medicare, Medicaid, OASDI, and the Canadian counter parts which includes the fact that Quebec has it's own separate old age pension system apart from the other provinces.

    My opposition to single payer is I've seen the horror stories and the wait lines of the single payer systems in Canada, UK, France. I've also seen more the national healthcare programs of South Korea, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan in order to price supplemental health products for these countries.

    In my experience, the capitalist market place does a better job of deliving goods and services to the vast majority of people who can afford them. That is an opinion. What facts is President Obama going to hit me over the head with to change my mind?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 3:55pm

79. Senior adviser David Axelrod had said Tuesday that Obama was considering being "more prescriptive" about what he feels Congress must include in a health bill. Axelrod said all the key ideas for revising health care are "on the table," suggesting that Obama will not offer major new proposals but may talk more specifically about his top priorities and perhaps add details to pending plans.

    The president hopes to "take the reins of this debate and take it to the finish line," said an administration official who spoke Wednesday on condition of anonymity to discuss White House strategy.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 4:20pm

80. What facts is President Obama going to hit me over the head with to change my mind? Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 3:55pm

    You are never going to convince the Republicans. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/01/2009 @ 5:28pm

    And he doesn't have to-- since they're a regional minority party...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 4:35pm

81. But if you're saying independent or centrist, try this:

    http://tinyurl.com/m7fw87

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 5:05pm

82. Someone shouting at a woman in a wheelchair is a fact that will convince independents to trust the government to run healthcare at least as well as the DMV?

    Again, what facts? Nobody thought there were death panels in the legislation. Palin was using hyperbole to mock Democrat's efforts. No independents oppose single payer because of the horry threat of death panels.

    OMB said even with the Medicare cuts, Obama's plan would cost $1 trillion over 10 years. Most people know that when a politicians gives you a cost the eventual cost is usually at least twice what the politician promises.

    Is that a fact that he is going to use to convince independents?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 5:25pm

83. No independents oppose single payer because of the horry threat of death panels.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 5:25pm

    Actually, sorry to say, even 20% of the dems thought there was legislation to create death panels; 28% of independents and not so surprisingly 47% of the repubs...

    Or are you saying that the people that thought there were really death panels actually favored them?

    Pew Research Center Poll. Aug. 14-17, 2009.

    "From what you know, do you think it is true or not true that the health care legislation will create these so called 'death panels'?"

    ________________True__Not True__Unsure

    ALL______________30_____50_____20

    Republicans________ 47_____ 30 ____ 23

    Democrats_________ 20_____64_____16

    Independents_______ 28_____ 51_____21

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 5:44pm

84. No mandate without a Public Option.

    There is a good reason why the Public Option is mandatory, it is called the "individual mandate".

    There is a %100 chance that there will be an individual mandate - Americans who do not have insurance are portrayed and looked upon as deadbeats. Deadbeats are the single most actionable item in American politics. Actually they arent really deadbeats, they're smart, because you pay the insurance companies tens of thousands of dollars for decade after decade and still go bankrupt anyway even with insurance. What point is there for 21 year olds to spend 15 years paying $2500 minimum per year for diddly squat - to known un-trustworthy insurance companies.

    Given the certainty of the individual mandate, we must have a Public Option - otherwise the IRS is going to be acting as a collection enforcer for the insurance companies.

    Posted by DPGrassley at 09/02/2009 @ 6:01pm

85. I'm absolutely appalled at the "nazi-like" actions of the obama admin. This bastard is now using our tax-dollars to INDOCTRINATE our children to "help" President Obama. This is EVIL. This is part of the plan, though, and we all know the left infected gov't/academia a long time ago, for just this purpose. This piece of shit, Obama, is dividing this country at a rapid pace, wasting a perfect opportunity to bring us all together, heal racial divisions, and move forward together for a common goal. No, this racist, Obama, doesn't want unity, he and the left thrive on division, using race to silence any opposition. I cannot believe what I'm witnessing. I've already informed all family and friends that if they vote for the oxygen-thief himself, Obama, in 2012, they'll be written off by me, will not be allowed on my property, and their existence will never be acknowledged or respected again. I cannot believe that it's come to this, and never would i have ever thought that I'd take such an extreme position, but this piece-of-shit, Obama, crossed the line a long time ago, and he's now crossing it DAILY! Fuck OBAMA

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 6:48pm

86. I'm absolutely appalled at the "nazi-like" actions of the obama admin. This bastard is now using our tax-dollars to INDOCTRINATE our children to "help" President Obama. This is EVIL. This is part of the plan, though, and we all know the left infected gov't/academia a long time ago, for just this purpose. This piece of shit, Obama, is dividing this country at a rapid pace, wasting a perfect opportunity to bring us all together, heal racial divisions, and move forward together for a common goal. No, this racist, Obama, doesn't want unity, he and the left thrive on division, using race to silence any opposition. I cannot believe what I'm witnessing. I've already informed all family and friends that if they vote for the oxygen-thief himself, Obama, in 2012, they'll be written off by me, will not be allowed on my property, and their existence will never be acknowledged or respected again. I cannot believe that it's come to this, and never would i have ever thought that I'd take such an extreme position, but this piece-of-shit, Obama, crossed the line a long time ago, and he's now crossing it DAILY! Fuck OBAMA

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 6:48pm

87. We nneed to start a war against public education and demand "separation of the psychotic religion of liberalism and state". There's no reason why any american should have to send their child to a communist-re-education camp. There's no justification for a system of education that is BIASED, does not promote or encourage expression of differing views, and now seems bent on becoming a campaigner of lunatic liberal socialists!!!!! Fuck Obama. My child will NEVER be subjected to that NAZI bullshit! Fuck Obama that little soft-hands-havin', never-worked-a-day-in-his-life, little punk bitch!

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 6:56pm

88. We nneed to start a war against public education and demand "separation of the psychotic religion of liberalism and state". There's no reason why any american should have to send their child to a communist-re-education camp. There's no justification for a system of education that is BIASED, does not promote or encourage expression of differing views, and now seems bent on becoming a campaigner of lunatic liberal socialists!!!!! Fuck Obama. My child will NEVER be subjected to that NAZI bullshit! Fuck Obama that little soft-hands-havin', never-worked-a-day-in-his-life, little punk bitch!

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 6:56pm

89. Barry25, shut up or grow up!

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/02/2009 @ 6:59pm

90. Err Barry25, grow up or shut up!

    Posted by Denise29 at 09/02/2009 @ 7:00pm

91. very clever

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 8:09pm

92. i guess 50% of the american people need to grow up. obama is losing popularity faster than a liberal's daughter will lose her virginity, and that's pretty damn fast!

    Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 8:13pm

93. Stop whining Barely25. Not getting any-- grow up and take it like a a a... well at least like a 'mature' smallish inadequate boy.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 10:40pm

94. Er, Stop whining Barely2/5. Not getting any-- grow up and take it like a a a... well at least like a 'mature' smallish inadequate boy;)

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 10:45pm

95. Actually, sorry to say, even 20% of the dems thought there was legislation to create death panels; 28% of independents and not so surprisingly 47% of the repubs...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 09/02/2009 @ 5:44pm

    If I was a Dem, I'd tell a polster that I believed in death panels to make the Palin and Grassley look worse. Kind of like the Dem activist that smashed up the Dem headquarters in Colorado to make Reps look bad, but he got caught.

    Furthermore, this is a tricky question. End of life care really is an outsized portion of healthcare expenditures. Addressing expensive, futile attempts to exend life by a week or two need to be considered.

    That's why the Democrat respons to the hyperboic charge of "death panels" was, "There are no death panels! Besides, we took that provision out."

    Obviously the parts dealing with end of life care were too politically hot after Palin dubbed them death panels (kind of like the death tax/estate tax).

    So are there death panels? Well they aren't called death panels, but we do need to address expensive, futile end of life care, so no, but sorta kinda maybe?

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 06:19am

96. this plan means to our country and to them individually. Where is that guy? What's fettering him? Who or what is holding him back? We need to know facts upfront, right away instead of having the dribs and drabs leak out to be pounced upon by his opposition. There is a lot of discussion just how stupid and disingenuous people like Grassley and Boehner and their ilk have been but who is really the dumbass when you allow it to sink to these levels?

    Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/31/2009 @ 5:19pm

    So far, it appears that he's more interested in being re-elected in 2012 and thinks that this bipartisan fiasco is going to keep the middle of the road vote. Problem is that he's pissing off the base of the democratic party.

    Either Obama doesn't want to take a firm stance and would rather put the blame solely on the dems in congress for not passing anything or he's setting the table to actually lead the healthcare reformation. I hope it's the latter. If it's not, he can probably kiss 2012 goodbye along with a lot of dems in congress. Then, we're really screwed.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/03/2009 @ 06:30am

97. Hey, Wolfgang, hsuB, and the rest,

    I know you don't consider me a friend, but I'm trying to give you friendly advise: neither single payer nor public option (a.k.a. single payer by stealth) is a possibility in the US for the forseeable future.

    If opposition to them were related to something as trivial as calling end of life counceling "death panel" Obama could end that misconception with one speech. That triviality is not why the vast majority of Americans won't support single payer or public option for the forseeable future.

    hsuB, you can cite poll after poll after poll all you want. None of them ask the important question: "Are you willing to pay $2 trillion dollars over the next ten years or drastically cut Medicare to pay for the unisured?"

    No people are not. And as much as it would benefit me, personally, to see a bloody civil war in the Democrat party, a bloody civil war won't generate the public support needed for single payer or public option. The polls you are being shown are intended to mislead you into thinking support is there when it is not. There is support for magical solutions without any cost, but there is not support for ceding individual decision of health care to the federal government.

    A day or two ago, I said there was some truth to the statement, "You guys are more interested in promoting collectivism than helping the poor unisured".

    There will be a bill, and it will provide relief to millions of poor people who are suffering. But it won't put everybody in the same system. There will still levels of care better for the rich than the poor.

    You can accept that as reality, or you can attempt to destroy your party, but there is nothing you can do to change the fact you lack public support for your goals for the forseeable future

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 06:53am

98. Look, you fancy yourselves as followers of reason.

    Karl Rove says today in the WSJ, it's hard to sell people on change they don't think they need.

    80% of Americans are satisfied with their own care. They want the government to do something about the other 20%; not them.

    Single payer affect them. In order to get public option to be attractive to them, it has to be better than what they already have. What they already have is a shit ton expensive. The only way to may the public option more attractive is to make it two shit tons expensive.

    That ain't going to happen.

    You can help the poor or you can destroy your party. I don't really see a third option.

    Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 07:03am

99. "obama is losing popularity faster than a liberal's daughter will lose her virginity, and that's pretty damn fast!"----Posted by barry25 at 09/02/2009 @ 8:13pm

    Sarah Palin is a liberal?!?!?!?!?!?!?!???

    Posted by Mask at 09/03/2009 @ 08:46am

100. Read this again....and try not to blow milk out your nose when you start laughing...

     "Look, you fancy yourselves as followers of reason.

     Karl Rove says today in the WSJ...."---Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 07:03am

     Posted by Mask at 09/03/2009 @ 08:48am

101. Read this again....and try not to blow milk out your nose when you start laughing...

     Karl Rove says today in the WSJ...."---Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 07:03am

     Posted by Mask at 09/03/2009 @ 08:48am

     That's classic Mask. Quoting Karl Rove as a follower of reason versus his political real life political panderings is comparable to quoting quoting Mark McGwire on how to be a baseball role model for children. Then again, reasoning is something Durwood never thought was worth the time of day anyway.

     Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/03/2009 @ 09:24am

102. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/03/2009 @ 09:24am

     BTW, don't you love Karl Rove telling us "hard to sell people things they don't need"...

     apparently so...given him and his Boss' failure to "reform" Social Security with privatization!

     Posted by Mask at 09/03/2009 @ 09:39am

103. pparently so...given him and his Boss' failure to "reform" Social Security with privatization!

     Posted by Mask at 09/03/2009 @ 09:39am

     Ya, social security was and is something wallstreet and/or the insurance industry would love to sink their teeth into to. Shows what side of the bread W and Rove had buttered to be sure. At least Obama hasn't mentioned that kind of reform.

     Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/03/2009 @ 1:11pm

104. Democrats, F--- your re-election, do the right thing, fight FOR Americans.

     Posted by DPGrassley at 09/03/2009 @ 3:53pm

105. Bwahahahah, and I thought it was only my local radio new con repub faux spews going a little more deranged than usual:

     "Yesterday, I noted that Florida's GOP Chair Jim Greer had heard about President Barack Obama's intention to address the schoolchildren of America on the occasion of the start of a new school year, and went quite mental, warning darkly that the address was nothing more than a dastardly inculcation into socialism and a viral spread of liberal propaganda. Naively, I imagined this would be a derangement confined to a few weird nobodies, but, duh, I forgot: everyone is crazy now. So, this matter has thus become a Thing. Let's dispense with the highlights!

     Glenn Beck hit this early, in a hurry, announcing that he would be countering Obama's address by airing a "special one-hour broadcast next Tuesday on television on the indoctrination of your children." Naturally, new wacko-target Van Jones figured into Beck's remarks, along with a warning that the "republic is under attack" from a video that encourages kids to do homework and stuff:

     http://tinyurl.com/npmhx4

     And I was only subtly worried that it was maybe a little too close to 9/11 for my taste....

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2009 @ 4:22pm

106. hsuB, you can cite poll after poll after poll all you want.

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 06:53am

     CNN/Opinion Research Corporation Poll. Aug. 28-31, 2009.

     "Do you think the country's health care system needs a great deal of reform, only some reform, or no reform at all?"

     Date_________A Great Deal__Only Some__None

     8/28-31/09________45 ______46_______7

     (Now that's like 91% saying that healthcare needs some type of reform!)

     "Do you think the problems in the country's health care system will eventually affect most Americans if they are not addressed, or do you think that most Americans will continue to get good health care even if those problems are not addressed?"

     Date_______Affect Most__Continue Good Care

     8/28-31/09_____65__________32

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/03/2009 @ 4:55pm

107. Its going to take some tragedy before people realize that you can't talk the way many on the right are talking and get away with it. These town halls are about as surreal as it gets, and these people are the ones who should listen to Obama and do their homework, but I'm afraid they don't have that much education. Thier kids are doomed.Sigh.

     Posted by Denise29 at 09/03/2009 @ 5:39pm

108. Their kids are doomed. BIG Sigh!

     Posted by Denise29 at 09/03/2009 @ 5:40pm

109. My opposition to single payer is I've seen the horror stories and the wait lines of the single payer systems in Canada, UK, France. I've also seen more the national healthcare programs of South Korea, China, Taiwan, Hong Kong, and Japan in order to price supplemental health products for these countries.

     In my experience, the capitalist market place does a better job of deliving goods and services to the vast majority of people who can afford them. That is an opinion. What facts is President Obama going to hit me over the head with to change my mind?

     Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/02/2009 @ 3:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     SEEN?? You have personal experience with each of these systems? If your experience is so solid, then why do the majority of people in all of those countries that you mention are perfectly fine with their healthcare system, regardless of how long the lines are? You Republicans, with your "let the market decide uber alles!" mentality, make it sound like people are going to have to wait in line for an emergency room visit for a cracked skull. Most of the "lines" in Europe were not for emergency care. Hell, it takes me three weeks (and THAT's a line for you) just to get to see my doctor WITHOUT an emergency.

     As for what Obama can or cannot say that will change your mind? Your mind is already closed to the matter (as is Larry's, Happy's, etc.) because you are a conservative idealogue; staying true to your ideology is more important to you that actually discovering a way to cover 40-50 million people (or more) who can't afford to get sick in the richest country in the history of humanity. Yet you have no problems, generally speaking, with spending literally a trillion dollars on war.

     So sad.

     Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 09/03/2009 @ 6:20pm

110. It is too bad I was busy last night when teen aged Barry 15 got caught with his pants down. Why are you so angry Barry? I guess when you have to think rationally ands act rationally during work hours it must put a strain on your medication load. Do you know how many small company owners have worked only for that company. Have you watched some work hard and others not. How about Rush , Barry? Does he work his ass off ? I doubt it, he is doing what he loves,rabble rousing. He seems to have got you frothing at the mouth. I think you should go back to the public library and take out a good book. It would be better for your mental health.

     Posted by whatizz at 09/03/2009 @ 7:22pm

111. There is a lot of discussion just how stupid and disingenuous people like Grassley and Boehner and their ilk have been but who is really the dumbass when you allow it to sink to these levels?

     Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/31/2009 @ 5:19pm | ignore this person | warn this person

     Not stupidity....crass indifference or downright callousness.

     Posted by jarshadow at 09/03/2009 @ 7:58pm

112. Darin the little troll-obviously you are in the insurance or a related field. If you want to quote numbers on administrative costs profit,executive compensation, I would be happy to follow along. You just seem to miss the point that is central to the debate. Health care is bankrupting this country. It is squeezing people at home,squeezing or killing small business, and hindering big business. It is like a gremlin sitting on people's shoulders. Yes you are a Republican and I am thinking how incredible it is for the party that has a history of screwing the little guy, is actually looking good right now when they are doing it. The defense of Medicare for the upcoming mid terms is right out of a text book. What was it in 1965 when Medicare passed , 7 Republican votes in the Senate? Perhaps the "seniors" should have their memories jogged.

     Posted by whatizz at 09/03/2009 @ 8:00pm

113. So sad.

     Posted by Stephen_Carver1 at 09/03/2009 @ 6:20pm

     Stephen, I think the word you are looking for is greedy, not sad. These folks are filled with nothing but greed. They talk and act as if they work so damned hard, but then you find out that most of them are either insurance salemen (that would be liverlips) or working directly for insurance companies determining the risk versus payoffs (that would be Durwood the greedy taker of other peoples' money).

     Posted by Wolfgang1 at 09/04/2009 @ 06:31am

114. I am an insurance agent that voted for the President. The government already has mandates on workers compensation and auto insurance. To say that the government should stay out of health insurance is a silly argument that misses the point wholly - the reason government gets involved in insurance is to protect its citizens. Its the reason we have mandates on work comp and auto insurance. There should be no difference when it comes to health insurance. People need to get over the fact that government programs cost money and remember that they are engaged in a social contract that they exchange their rights for the protection of others. In this case, they give up the right to their entire income via taxes in exchange for the government protecting them when they are sick regardless of past medical history or financial background. Democrats need to get mobilized and put a stop to these ridiculous accusations coming from the right.

     Posted by williams.cole at 09/04/2009 @ 11:31am

115. Greed has taken them into madness. Try reasoning with a madman. Doesn't work. They're stuck in a loop of their own creation that has little to do with rational processing. And the reason scientific or reality based rationale that contradicts their arguments are like pearls to swine. And the reason they're back with the same arguments over and over again. It's insane, nation-destructive, devoid of compassion, short sighted and totally unnecessary to engage; just short of a mental health quarantine.

     Thus, new con repub arguments against healthcare reform is against their own self interest and further proof of their insanity!

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/04/2009 @ 1:26pm

116. Sources: White House drafting health care bill Posted: September 4th, 2009 03:06 PM ET

     From CNN's Jessica Yellin and Gloria Borger

     CNN has learned that the White House is working to draft health care legislation.

     WASHINGTON (CNN) -- CNN has learned that the White House is quietly working to draft health care legislation after allowing Congress to work on its own for months.

     Multiple sources close to the process tell CNN that while the plan is uncertain, they are preparing for the possibility they could deliver their own legislation to Capitol Hill sometime after the President Barack Obama's speech to a joint session of Congress Wednesday.

     As previously reported by CNN senior congressional correspondent Dana Bash and CNN senior White House correspondent Ed Henry, the so-called trigger option remains very much on the table.

     Under a 'trigger option', a new government-run health care plan would only go into effect if insurance companies fail to meet certain affordability standards with their own plans.

     Sources say the current thinking among administration officials is that the president will lay out a path to reform in his speech next week that the White House hopes can bridge the various differences in the competing proposals.

     Sources expect the president to emphasize the message: If Congress passes something now, it will serve as a foundation to pass further reform in the future.

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/04/2009 @ 4:23pm

117. Posted by Darin_the_Big_Fat_Troll at 09/03/2009 @ 07:03am |

     Please stop conflating people's satisfaction with the QUALITY of their care with their overall level of happiness with the COST and ACCESS to same.

     They are not one and the same.

     Posted by snowball777 at 09/05/2009 @ 03:20am

118. This is in response to what one blogger called, "storming the town halls" Unless the pro health care people are willing to sink to the level of shouting and fistfights no one will ever see it. Crisis and conflict are all that's newsworthy according to the "if it bleeds it leads" adage. Do you want that?

     At the point when the middle (or as it's called the left) turns up that kind of heat, media will simply call town halls, "old news" and focus on the conflicts in Congress with the endless wingnut extremist interviews on bias from the desk. That's how it worked when 15 million worldwide marched against an Iraq war.

     The correct strategy is the one Obama has chosen...expose that rats, throw sunlight on the crazies...then work the halls. I rather do like the "march on Washington" idea as well..one big walloping rally.

     Posted by hrayovac at 09/05/2009 @ 6:18pm

119. hrayovac, I like it, I'm glad someone here understands what Obama is up against, I just "hope" he can pull the beginnings of HC care off, with the help from his friends, which should be the American people but its not, sad, big sigh....

     Posted by Denise29 at 09/05/2009 @ 8:03pm

120. That should be with a little help from his friends.

     Posted by Denise29 at 09/05/2009 @ 8:04pm

121. Thus, new con repub arguments against healthcare reform is against their own self interest and further proof of their insanity!

     Posted by hsuBfools at 09/04/2009 @ 1:26pm

     Apparently, we don't have anybody as honest as Howard Dean who can just come out and say we aren't doing tort reform because the trial lawyers who contribute the most to the Democratic Party wouldn't like it. Therefore, Americans must continue to pay high health insurance premiums so as to continue lining the pockets of trial lawyers.

     Posted by Citizen_Carrier at 09/05/2009 @ 11:25pm

122. Let's own up. The average IQ in the country is 93, making the US a farce for a modern nation state. What this means is that the country will be unable to compete in this century. Secondly, among modern states, such as Japan, the US is humanistically dysfunctional, which will make it even more difficult to create the will necessary for institutional and social change. There will be schism before unity on all social issues. Witness the vestiges of white supremacy call for secession.

     It should not be surprising. These dynamics are historical. When the founders met in Philadelphia in the 1780's to write the social contract, progressives and conservatives (regressives) met to decide the fate of thousands of its citizens, whether they would be free or slave, have liberty and equal citizenship, or not. In the end, the answer was that white males would be accorded full citizenship, all others would be slaves or wards of the state. Consequently, predation (white supremacy) was victorious over humanism. Predation is still winning since few have the knowledge, courage, nor the intelligence to challenge it. MoveOn, for example, seems more interested in fund raising than organizing. Since Repugrats declared a war on the means of production of the left, raising money will be increasingly difficult. Worse, over the next 5 years, the IRS, which is dominated by rightwing civil servants, will be taking more assets. Obama's political transformation is just more of the same.

     Posted by afrothetics at 09/06/2009 @ 07:36am

123. Bluntly, the conservatives are winning the battle for health care reform because of the slant in coverage. Who is paying the bill for the operational costs of all the networks. I do not think we can overlook that fact . Glenn"the nut ball" has higher ratings now than before he called Obama a racist. The advertisers not scared away will pay a higher rate to sell t5heir message on his show. This begs the question,How can people think paying more money each year for less coverage is a good thing?How does denying claims make for a better system? How does 1 out of 6 Americans being uninsured make America a better country? Now switch gears and visualize the warm and fuzzy commercials made for AARP (Medicare supplemental insurance),Viagra,and Lipitor. Millions of dollars are poured into these advertising campaigns that you can watch at any time on any channel.Headlines in newspapers and on the internet have screamed for weeks about people "protesting" health care reform. Very little has been said about specifically why or who but the seeds have been sown to get a viewer to watch the next show. The presentation by the conservative controllers of the airwaves has been superb. This is the battle we have to figure out how to win.

     Posted by whatizz at 09/06/2009 @ 08:36am