The Notion

BREAKING: Rush, Newt, and Sarah Supported Death Panels, Too!

posted by Leslie Savan on 08/14/2009 @ 10:09am

Attention, townhall protesters: Guess who else wants to pull the plug on granny and kill Sarah Palin's baby? In some knock-out reporting, MSNBC's Rachel Maddow showed Thursday night that not long ago Rush Limbaugh promoted death panels on his own radio show, Newt Gingrich sung their praises in the pages of the Washington Post, and, as the half-term governor of Alaska, Sarah Palin actually proclaimed an official Death Panel Day for her state!

Now, I wonder how long it will be before this must-see hypocrisy is featured on the nightly news and Sunday talk shows? Especially on your shows, Brian Williams and David Gregory, since you are, like Maddow, part of the "NBC family." Surely you're not going to ignore this major story at the heart of the health care debate, are you?

And for more must-see health care hypocrisy, viddy this: Glenn Beck on the Best Health Care in the World, from The Daily Show, aired the same night.

The Daily Show With Jon StewartMon - Thurs 11p / 10c
Glenn Beck's Operation
www.thedailyshow.com
Daily Show
Full Episodes		Political HumorSpinal Tap Performance

Comments (279)

  1. "But, but, but...uh....what THEY said was...totally different! Yeah...TOTALLY!"

    (Preview of what's to come from the Right)

    Posted by Mask at 08/14/2009 @ 10:16am

  2. CNN bans talk show hosts - medicare fight Everyone should go to the National Film Board site in Canada and view some of the footage from the introduction of medicare in Canada in 1962. Or just google Saskatchewan Medicare or Canadian Medicare and interesting links come up where you can view the tactics of the schills for the opponents of universal coverage. The parallels are quite interesting and the level of intelligence of those protesting is also quite interesting. Some things never change. By sklarmanAugust 14, 2009 - 9:39am

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 10:20am

  3. hi hsuB.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 10:30am

  4. I can't wait to here the neanderthal's reply to this. Let me guess, Rachel Maddow is gay....John Stewart is a librul commie and so is Rachel. Or, that's what those MSNBC dittoheads are paid to say.

    They, of course, won't take note of their heroes like Rush, Sarah or Newt contradicting themselves, but rather they'll go into attack mode on Rachel and John Stewart for putting this information on their shows. Kind of like Liver was attacking Olbermann the other day but never did come up with any circumstance of Olbermann lying about an issue.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/14/2009 @ 10:35am

  5. Is there some theoretical limit to hypocrisy where wingnuts simply immolate on the spot?

    I'm gonna start carrying an extinguisher, just in case.

    Posted by snowball777 at 08/14/2009 @ 10:49am

  6. Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/14/2009 @ 10:35am |

    It makes you wonder how much 'lying' the 'liberal media' does when they mostly stick to showing self-contradicting clips of the other team making fools of themselves.

    Posted by snowball777 at 08/14/2009 @ 10:50am

  7. Hi FZ.

    Who's "Liver", Wolfm?

    When has the 'truth' ever been important to the incontinent GOPoopers anyway, snowb7? They're immune to reality.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 10:55am

  8. Maddow was right on point; the "death panels" argument is stupid and even those making the "death panels" argument should recognize that.

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/14/2009 @ 11:18am

  9. universal health care is the way to go. take a stance!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 11:28am

  10. Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 10:55am |

    Liver == antisocialist...a.k.a Larry, lvliberty, etc

    Posted by snowball777 at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

  11. It's somehow reassuring to see the consistency in the leftists use of Alinsky methods of lies and distortions, and this latest attack by Obama and the rest of the leftists is certainly no different.

    NO ONE ON THE RIGHT HAS BEEN AGAINST LIVING WILLS.

    I recommend them to all of my insurance clients.

    The concern is about having govt entities who are charged with reducing the costs borne by the Govt, also influencing these decisions by the elderly.

    Either you leftists are completely blind to this conflict of interest, or (as is more likely), your obsession with this power grab over the lives of every American let's you conveniently ignore the truth.

    For me as a Christian, I have a conflict. As a citizen, I love the freedom that this constitutional republic tried to establish. And as a citizen, I hate the totalitarian marxist power grab that the left is engaged in. As a Christian, it seems this is simply another step towards what will happen once the anti-christ assumes power, only then it will be multiplied. Most of you will probably be the type who will eagerly embrace this monster who seeks your destruction as he deceives you even as you are deceived now about what really constitutes freedom.

    so I guess my pity towards you exceeds my anger.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

  12. "so I guess my pity towards you exceeds my anger."------Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

    [as the rest of the survivors discover his plan to kill them and make money smuggling xenomorph embryos] This is so nuts. I mean, listen - listen to what you're saying. It's paranoid delusion. How - It's really sad. It's pathetic."---"Carter Burke" (Paul Reiser) "Aliens"

    Posted by Mask at 08/14/2009 @ 11:39am

  13. I think Beck will probably do what Bill O'Reilly did when the heat was turned on him re: loofas and his having been registered as a republican in the past. Beck will cry (perhaps literally) that the MSM is trying to deflect from the real issues by ramping up its smear machine.

    of coruse, he has no one to blame but himself.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 11:41am

  14. Maddow was right on point; the "death panels" argument is stupid and even those making the "death panels" argument should recognize that.

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/14/2009 @ 11:18am

    oh, THEY recognize it's stupid, but what of the people listening?

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 11:45am

  15. Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 10:55am |

    Welcome back...

    Say,,

    Whats the latest polling data on Obama, the economy, his performance and the health care plan today?

    Posted by YourJomamma at 08/14/2009 @ 11:48am

  16. Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

    larry,

    the anti-christ (and christ for that matter) resides in your soul.

    i think the fact that human population is multiplying so fast is a testament to the fact that the christ side is winning, however stupid humans may be.

    take a walk in the garden and squish your anti-christ.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 11:48am

  17. antisocialist-It is amazing that America is still reasonably free since all on the left are Marxist totalitarians and all on the right are nazis and all are trying to destroy America through power grabs and stolen elections.Considering how you guys globbed onto the unknown Palin I think it is quite likely that you guys would embrace an antichrist except that Nero is dead as are the other Roman emperors that Revelations mentioned.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/14/2009 @ 11:52am

  18. (meanwhile, in antimatter universe:)

    Say,,

    Whats the latest polling data on McCain, the economy, his performance and the health care plan today, now that Palin has quit and that leftistnazibeech pelosi is turning the vps offic into another DMV?

    Posted by YourPapi at 08/14/2009 @ 84:11pm

    same as it ever was.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 11:53am

  19. Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am | ignore this person | warn this person

    Larry--how can you recommend living wills in connection with your insurance sales business but be against living wills included in a gov't sponsored program?

    there will never be a shortage of attorneys (or people with power of attorney) to protect the person creating his/her will (whether the person trying to influence the person making the will is a private insurance salesman or a gov't worker).

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 11:54am

  20. the other Roman emperors that Revelations mentioned.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/14/2009 @ 11:52am

    ah, but you forget Blacomacus of Aegyptus, the dark emperor who abets the rise of the three headed dragoon, Morgaigsachs.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 11:58am

  21. This tit for tat is really getting tiresome. Why would anyone take seriously the rantings of talking heads on either side of the political spectrum. Anyone who does so is just intellectually lazy. Instead of listening to Rush Limbauge or Keith Olbermann, time would be better spent searching the web for the text of the one thousand page health reform bill.

    Yeah, it's tedious and boring but at least by reading it you'll find that the talking heads on both sides are full of it.

    I think that most working Americans will be against health care reform that lessens their own plans but would be receptive to a compromise that has tort reform, a voluntary catastrophic illness insurance protection plan, a law that would make it illegal to deny coverage based on 'prior condition' and a strengthening of Medicare and Medicaid to meet the needs of the elderly and poor. I've already pointed out how to pay for these improvements.

    Most of the current bill is just deaf to these problems. Congress needs to stop being lazy and sit down and hammer out a plan that will serve America as a whole but especially it's senior citizens, veterans and people who work to make this country stronger which applies to most of us.

    The roadblock now, and the one that's being exploited by talking heads, is the fear that working people, who are already taxed to death will have to pay for lazy people who can bearly summon the strength to cash their welfare checks. If there is any suspicion that Obama is paying back his supporters by trying to give these people more freebies that they haven't earned, the democratic party will have blown it. Power will shift back to the republicans by 2012 and George W. Bush will be long forgotton.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 12:11pm

  22. NO ONE ON THE RIGHT HAS BEEN AGAINST LIVING WILLS.

    I recommend them to all of my insurance clients. The concern is about having govt entities who are charged with reducing the costs borne by the Govt, also influencing these decisions by the elderly.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

    Hey, I used to sell insurance, as one of the three jobs I had right out of college.

    And one of the first to quit as I felt like I was stealing money from the fearful. I made 70% commission off the top! If I didn't clear $100 a sale my district manager thought I wasn't scaring the client enough... We had scripts. The other 30% got split up with the management and overhead. Maybe 1-4% was actually for paying out claims.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 12:12pm

  23. Who's "Liver", Wolfm?

    When has the 'truth' ever been important to the incontinent GOPoopers anyway, snowb7? They're immune to reality.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 10:55am

    hsubfools, Nice to see you're back. Liver is antisocialist, aka livliberty aka john bircher aka evangelical militant.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/14/2009 @ 12:34pm

  24. larry,

    the anti-christ (and christ for that matter) resides in your soul.

    i think the fact that human population is multiplying so fast is a testament to the fact that the christ side is winning, however stupid humans may be.

    take a walk in the garden and squish your anti-christ.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/14/2009 @ 11:48am

    Frosty, you are always so misguided on your knowledge of the spiritual world.

    The spirit of the devil and the spirit of G-d cannot reside in the same person. The spirit of the anti-christ was squished from me many decades ago.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm

  25. Oh, Those Death Panels

    Posted by AMY SULLIVAN Thursday, August 13, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    You would think that if Republicans wanted to totally mischaracterize a health care provision and demagogue it like nobody's business, they would at least pick something that the vast majority of them hadn't already voted for just a few years earlier. Because that's not just shameless, it's stupid.

    Yes, that's right. Remember the 2003 Medicare prescription drug bill, the one that passed with the votes of 204 GOP House members and 42 GOP Senators? Anyone want to guess what it provided funding for? Did you say counseling for end-of-life issues and care? Ding ding ding!!

    http://swampland.blogs.time.com/2009/08/13/oh-those-death-panels/

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 12:42pm

  26. And one of the first to quit as I felt like I was stealing money from the fearful. I made 70% commission off the top! If I didn't clear $100 a sale my district manager thought I wasn't scaring the client enough... We had scripts. The other 30% got split up with the management and overhead. Maybe 1-4% was actually for paying out claims.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 12:12pm

    I'm sorry you worked for someone who cared about greed rather than helping others.

    I tell new agents that their lives and sense of purpose are forever changed the first time they get a death claim check into the hands of a spouse who just lost their loved one.

    I also teach them to help solve the needs of an individual or family instead of seeking a commission and your own financial needs will be met without your focusing on it.

    Furthermore, a lot of what I do is combine death benefits with tax free retirement planning through solid, yet conservative paying Life Insurance products.

    I'm setting up a doctor right now who is 57 and has no real retirement with a conversion of his term policy (which I also wrote) to an Executive Bonus Sec 162 plan where his medical corporation can deduct the premiums as a salary bonus expense and they even pay the amount ofincome taxes due as part of the bonus. He gets the death benefit for his son, and a tax free retirement acct. Seems like a good service to me.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:45pm

  27. The spirit of the anti-christ was squished from me many decades ago.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm

    NOT.

    In some cases it takes several millennia... I believe you could be one such slow slow slow... learner.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 12:48pm

  28. Larry--how can you recommend living wills in connection with your insurance sales business but be against living wills included in a gov't sponsored program?

    there will never be a shortage of attorneys (or people with power of attorney) to protect the person creating his/her will (whether the person trying to influence the person making the will is a private insurance salesman or a gov't worker).

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 11:54am

    Because I don't do anything but recommend that all people should have a living will and that they do not need an attorney's help unless they have a large and complicated estate. You can get the software free in some cases, or for $20 or less in most cases and then have it notarized.

    That is much different than having the same people get involved who decide how much benefit you can or can't have.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:49pm

  29. gunslinger1 is sounding the tocsin over the demo health care plan & the impending drop of the socialist hammer on our social security & medicare!

    Rise up America & prevent these socialists from taking away your govt bennies!

    Posted by Sorelish at 08/14/2009 @ 12:58pm

  30. The spirit of the devil and the spirit of G-d cannot reside in the same person. The spirit of the anti-christ was squished from me many decades ago.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --oh boy! now we're going beyond interpreting religious texts to proclaiming how invisible (and in all likelihood completely made up) forces can act, as if the spiritual world has laws of physics. yikes!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 1:03pm

  31. hsubfools, Nice to see you're back. Liver is antisocialist, aka livliberty aka john bircher aka evangelical militant.

    Posted by Wolfgang1 at 08/14/2009 @ 12:34pm

    Hi Wolfm. Yeah, I get that 'Liver' seems to collect far right toxic assets... to which he then stains these textual garments with each remolding of them.

    I'll never forget the stain he left defending DU and how he even fed it to his family with no ill effects... sad sick liver disease...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 1:03pm

  32. Oops, Wolfg... Hi.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 1:05pm

  33. Larry--how can you recommend living wills in connection with your insurance sales business but be against living wills included in a gov't sponsored program?

    there will never be a shortage of attorneys (or people with power of attorney) to protect the person creating his/her will (whether the person trying to influence the person making the will is a private insurance salesman or a gov't worker).

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 11:54am

    Because I don't do anything but recommend that all people should have a living will and that they do not need an attorney's help unless they have a large and complicated estate. You can get the software free in some cases, or for $20 or less in most cases and then have it notarized.

    That is much different than having the same people get involved who decide how much benefit you can or can't have.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:49pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --you're confusing the issue. in both cases the person making the will, either by themselves or through an attorney, will decide how their wills are set up. you're trying to imply that the gov't will write your will for you.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 1:08pm

  34. Hey gunslinger1, did you see the people in Los Angeles for the free helth care, are all those people lazy, and just waiting to cash their welfare checks? It literally brought tears to my eyes, is this what we have become?

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/14/2009 @ 1:13pm

  35. With all of the concern about preventative care being essential to our healthcare crisis (and I agree completely), some have spoken in debate with me about the cost and access to information.

    I will be happy to teach on preventative health care and you can forward the information to every one you know. All free of charge

    And you don't have to use or regard any of my business info that may be included with some of the information I pass on.

    How could that not be a good deal.

    Lesson 1 on the effect of oxygen radicalization on the body and our immune system.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C83y_ea_WbM

    And this video on how anti-oxidants work

    http://tinyurl.com/nwwe5p

    Peer Reviewed Study on Anti-Oxidant capacity of fruits

    http://tinyurl.com/muknkv

    I will later post a 30 day plan which we have used to reverse the effects of diabetes (type 2) and even a case of type 1 who is also a Registered Nurse.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 1:28pm

  36. The healthcare debate is probably the most inane and flat out stupid of the year. The grandioseness of the lies being told is absolutely ridiculous. The fact that American people actually believe half of this crap shakes my trust in the ability of the people in this country to actually make major decisions about it's well being.

    We all know that politicians are hypocrites. This type of post is nothing new for the right or the left. Rush, Newt and Palin blow with whatever wind takes them. The sad fact is that American's latch on to these lies and believe them to be true. People who are screaming about "death panels" are some of the dumbest people in this country for one, and for two will believe any lie that blows their way. The reason Palin, Newt and Rush rely on arguments like these is because they have no facts against universal healthcare.

    Show me where it is a negative accross the board. Show me the horror stories. I bet I can show you an equal if not worse story in our own system.

    For those of you who love to trumpet the horn of capitalism as being the most successful, take this into account. A companies only directive is to make money, as much money as possible. Now you are entrusting your health to a system where keeping you healthy does not make them money but loses them money. Does it not then follow that said entity will attempt to find the way to most efficiently pay the least amount possible even if that comes at a cost to you. That's what capitalism is all about. Maximizing efficiency in work places. Why then do we think that Healthcare companies act any differently? I'm sure right now some of them are sitting around kicking themselves about not having death panels which would cut costs for their companies.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 1:38pm

  37. So it's one thing to vote to have a 'living will', but then morphs into a 'death panel' if the gov is willing to back it up and pay doctors to provide the info to those very same patients they voted to get it?

    But although it isn't as bad as being pro-abortion, since repub's wouldn't ever vote for abortion legalization much less pay for it-- how then to better demonize a 'living will' as much as they do pro-choice; since they already voted for it? Why of course--- simply call it something completely different and hope their dumb ass brown shirt constituents can't figure it out. Like that really matters.

    Bottom line, repubs just don't want a dem president to win-- especially a dem black pres--- most especially the first dem black president! Repubs don't give a shit about the USA. The repubs have put the USA in the shitter and will continue to sell out because that's in their nature. Once you get that, everything they do makes sense.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 1:41pm

  38. The spirit of the devil and the spirit of G-d cannot reside in the same person. The spirit of the anti-christ was squished from me many decades ago. Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Why does the evil Canadian health care system allow its citizens a longer life expectancy than the US? Does the cold stiffle the anti-christ's power up there?

    Posted by A.D.H.D. at 08/14/2009 @ 2:02pm

  39. I can't get the videos to run on my machine. Can somebody post a transcript that shows exactly what they said?

    Posted by Mistral at 08/14/2009 @ 2:04pm

  40. I will later post a 30 day plan which we have used to reverse the effects of diabetes (type 2) and even a case of type 1 who is also a Registered Nurse.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 1:28pm

    You can't reverse type 1 diabetes. (this person may have had a severe type 2 that acted like Type 1). Type 1 is caused by the death of the cells in the Islets of Langerhans in the Pancrease. The only way to reverse it is with a Pancrease transplant (although research has shown a lot of promise restoring the dead cells by injecting embryonic stem cells)

    I do agree with you regarding Type 2 though.

    say, does your plan for reversing Type 1 diabetes involve Jesus, the devil, or Canada in any way?

    Posted by A.D.H.D. at 08/14/2009 @ 2:14pm

  41. oops..I guess I spelled pancreas incorrectly due to the influence of my dead-ass pancreas.

    Posted by A.D.H.D. at 08/14/2009 @ 2:18pm

  42. "And as a citizen, I hate the totalitarian marxist power grab that the left is engaged in"

    just this one sentence really encapsulates the fact that one generation is fading away (the baby boomer republicans, and everyone prior), and a new generation is taking its place.

    any educated person knows that the democratic party (to which antisocialist presumably refers as "the left") is neither totalitarian nor marxist. that is just patently obvious. and if you disagree with this, then it is virtually impossible to have a conversation or debate with you. serious. it's not possible to have a debate with someone who, on ontological premises, believes that obama is either marxist or totalitarian.

    the so-called "power grab" to which you refer is paltry in comparison to the bush white house, which appointed ignorant, anti-science, christian chronies to fill political appointments and ram through an extremely radical agenda.

    obama is merely attempting to minimally reverse the most egregious of bush's power grabs. obama is hardly a radical, definitely not a liberal, and barely a centrist (given how far this country moved to the right during the last 8 years).

    and this 'death panel' suggestion is all the evidence we need to conclude that. it's patently false (under obama's proposal). and, as someone pointed out, it ALREADY EXISTS.....

    antisocialist, can never admit defeat (amazing for a so-called "christian". all the real christians i know, who are actually buddhist, always admit their mistakes, it's part of maturing as a spiritual being).

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 2:27pm

  43. "power grab" = bipartisanship

    "bipartisanship" = negotiations w/ insurance comps

    "negotiations w/ insurance comps" = ??

    so obama negotiates with insurance companies, and that's a "power grab"?

    and bush never, ever had any negotations with companies.

    and bush never, ever ran up the deficit.

    and.......

    since when do deficits matter? during bush, i didn't hear anything from republicans about deficits.

    NOW, suddenly, deficits matter! we're "bankrupting our children"! obama's a marxist!

    the sheer, breathtaking stupidity of right wingers is (literally) destroying the country.

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 2:35pm

  44. Fascinating bit of history....

    RIGHT NOW (August 2009) you've got Republican politicians, conservatives, even "town hall protestors" saying they want Medicare "protected" and "shored up"....

    49 years ago?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRdLpem-AAs

    Same system in place now that the GOP wants to "protect" from Obama and his minions.

    Posted by Mask at 08/14/2009 @ 2:47pm

  45. mask, so true.

    the republicans are so intellectually weak that it's incredibly frustrating to even think of them, let alone discuss anything.

    did anyone see lawrence o'donnel eviscerate (without any effort, and with such class) that lebanon, PA protestor?

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 2:51pm

  46. Posted by Mask at 08/14/2009 @ 2:47pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    "fascinating" or "political concession generations later"?

    but bring up this obvious "point" for the upteenth time...it's such a good one!

    universal health care for all!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 2:52pm

  47. darladoon: "the republicans are so intellectually weak that it's incredibly frustrating to even think of them, let alone discuss anything."

    --uh, I'm liberal, but i know a lot of republicans in real life, and they're anything but "intellectually weak." what's actually intellectually weak is trying to dismiss an entire group of people by calling them stupid...oh, and it's prejudiced too. but not surprising from someone who supports the destruction of "whiteness." it's liberals like you who give liberalism a bad name darladoon.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 2:55pm

  48. the sheer, breathtaking stupidity of right wingers is (literally) destroying the country.

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 2:35pm

    Assuming that the country is being destroyed (an opinion) and that the country is controlled by the Democratic party, with a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, control of the House and the Presidency (a fact), does this mean that the Democratic Party is full of stupid right-wingers?

    Posted by Mistral at 08/14/2009 @ 3:08pm

  49. mistral--of course! blue-dog democrats are "stupid"!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 3:11pm

  50. oh--and barack's obviously stupid too. see big pharma deal. dumb white conservative president.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 3:14pm

  51. Yeah I know some repubs too and only a few quietly admit to being embarrassed by their party extremist. I'd venture to pose that repubs are either dumb as a brick or just plain cowardly-- for believing in the nonsense, one, and two, for not in the strongest terms denouncing their GOPooper extremists nonsense.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:15pm

  52. hsubfools--please take the time, now, to denounce extremist liberals (by name, and by topic on which they are extremist).

    thank you.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 3:17pm

  53. Sure, secret deals w/Pharma = bad. Keeping Gitmo open = bad. ...

    Oh wait, those are continuing the far right shit!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:21pm

  54. Sure, secret deals w/Pharma = bad. Keeping Gitmo open = bad. ...

    Oh wait, those are continuing the far right shit!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:21pm

    So it's not just the Blue Dog Democrats who are the stupid right-wingers?

    Posted by Mistral at 08/14/2009 @ 3:27pm

  55. Ok, you mean liberal extremism like maybe: 'turning the other cheek', 'praying for your enemy', 'giving to the poor', 'sacrificing yourself for a greater good', 'rendering unto Caesar', ... Jesus Christ?

    Oh wait repubs are all for that! Right?

    So I'd still only be denouncing repubs?

    Shit! You got me....

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:32pm

  56. hsubfools--if you can't denounce extremist liberals (or if you want to say there are no extremist liberals) you lose credibility. perhaps you don't understand this. or you understand it and don't care. but either way, unless you do, you lose credibility. you're just like darladoon, you give liberalism a bad name.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 3:44pm

  57. Ok, you mean liberal extremism like maybe: 'turning the other cheek', 'praying for your enemy', 'giving to the poor', 'sacrificing yourself for a greater good', 'rendering unto Caesar', ... Jesus Christ? Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:32pm

    I dunno sounds pretty marxist/socialist/vodoo witchcraft to me.

    Posted by mishelley at 08/14/2009 @ 3:49pm

  58. To further prove my point:

    In a public forum defined as much by passionate declarations on abortion as by statements about health care policy intricacies, U.S. Rep. Ahn "Joseph" Cao, R-New Orleans, said Thursday that he "leans" toward supporting the House Democrats' vision of a medical system overhaul provided it won't pay for procedures to end pregnancy.

    "The word is 'leaning, ' " he repeated to about 150 people gathered at an Irish Channel Neighborhood Association meeting, the first of four planned public forums for Cao during the August recess.

    Besides the abortion caveat, Cao further tempered his statement with his concerns about how major policy changes affect the federal budget, future deficit projections, the larger economy and Medicare recipients.

    "These are issues that concern the president as well, " Cao said, adding one of his many references to the complexity of the proposals and his continued struggle on a decision.

    (But then wimps out:)

    "Can the Republicans have reasonable debate if they have to lie about the content of the bill?" Zimmerman said. The congressman said the intricacies of the bill can be open to "interpretation."

    http://tinyurl.com/qebwpn

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 3:51pm

  59. hsubfools--if you can't denounce extremist liberals (or if you want to say there are no extremist liberals) you lose credibility.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 3:44pm

    Are you talking about liberals that do repub extremist warlike tactics like shredding the truth, bullying or blowing up shit or shooting/killing people-- to get their point across?

    PETA? Green Peace? Oh I forgot the group's name that drives nails into trees so they don't get cut...?

    Yeah there are extremists that are liberally minded initially, but then turn to violence. So that means the GOPoopers can lie about anything and it's justified?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:02pm

  60. hsubfools--you must admit your own (and/or your own party's) weaknesses in order to denounce the other person's (and/or other party's) weaknesses.

    it's only fair.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:08pm

  61. Posted by Denise29 at 08/14/2009 @ 1:13pm

    Hi. Listen, I'm not against welfare. There but for the grace of God go I. What I am against is welfare as a way of life and the expectation that government will thake care of poor choices.

    As I've stated in past posts, hard working people naturally resent lazy people. I think that most Americans have no qualms about offering someone, regardless of race or ethnicity, a helping hand if they are down on their luck.

    However don't expect to give birth to a half dozen kids, out of wedlock with no financial support from their fathers and expect people who work hard, pay taxes and play by the rules to raise them.

    As I've also said, we have gone through two full generations or more of welfare queens and people are finally starting to speak out. It's no coincidence that the election of a black President is the straw that stirred the drink. People, especially people who have made a success of themselves through hard work are going to have a hard time trusting this particular President becausehe's already demonstrated his willingness to spend money we do not have.

    He's also a big advocate of redistributing the wealth, which is as un-American as you can get. That being said, I don't think that people who are well off are cold-hearted either. I think that they will support money spent wisely and fairly. So far, President Obama hasn't demonstrated that he's willing to govern from the middle as Bill Clinton did in his second term when he left us with a surplus.

    So, Denise, please don't take my comments out of context. I don't think that class warfare or redistribution of someone's wealth are good for the country. I do believe in helping the poor, the elderly and veterans hovever.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 4:16pm

  62. gunslinger1: "have a hard time trusting this particular President because he's already demonstrated his willingness to spend money we do not have."

    --george w. bush?

    --ronald reagan?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:21pm

  63. it's only fair.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:08pm

    If by the end of Obama's term(s) as POTUS, there's still a GITMO, we're still at war, there's no universal healthcare, more people aren't working, cost of education is still unaffordable to our middle income, the economy is still shitty, any hsuB/cHeney admin crime(s) have not been publicly exposed/prosecuted, ...etc. It, as was the hsuB/cHeney admin, will in my view-- be a failed admin.

    Your turn.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:24pm

  64. gunslinger1: "So far, President Obama hasn't demonstrated that he's willing to govern from the middle as Bill Clinton did in his second term when he left us with a surplus."

    --george w. bush?

    --ronald reagan?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:24pm

  65. Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:08pm

    If by the end of Obama's term(s) as POTUS, there's still a GITMO, we're still at war, there's no universal healthcare, more people aren't working, cost of education is still unaffordable to our middle income, the economy is still shitty, any hsuB/cHeney admin crime(s) have not been publicly exposed/prosecuted, ...etc. It, as was the hsuB/cHeney admin, will in my view-- be a failed admin.

    Your turn.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:24pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --i don't think you get my point. i'm for all those things you speak of. jsut don't call all republicans/conservatives dumb, stupid, etc. or say only republicans/conservatives have "extremists"...democrats/liberals do too.

    --also, sadly, i doublt most of those things are not gonna happen in barack's presidency, even if he gets 2 terms.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:27pm

  66. --i don't think you get my point. i'm for all those things you speak of. jsut don't call all republicans/conservatives dumb, stupid, etc.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:27p

    Hey, I'm up for repub complexities-- I'm willing to give any repub a chance to fit into another category other than dumb/stupid; there's also cowardly!

    Yeah, just call me open minded. I believe in science, history and experience too.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:36pm

  67. say, does your plan for reversing Type 1 diabetes involve Jesus, the devil, or Canada in any way?

    Posted by A.D.H.D. at 08/14/2009 @ 2:14pm

    No..just natural treatments

    I've experienced good success rates with our natural treatments. I have more than 80% of type 2 diabetics have go off of meds following the directions we provide.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 4:37pm

  68. Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:36pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    like i said, libs like you and darladoon give liberalism a bad name. i think you do more harm than good.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:40pm

  69. i think you do more harm than good.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:40pm

    Well then, alls I got to help you out is-- as they say "opinions like assholes..."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:44pm

  70. Well then, alls I got to help you out is-- as they say "opinions like assholes..."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 4:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --that attitude is sure to keep you here complaining about why the liberal platform just can't seem to get passed...but at least you'll be happy being able to continue complaining

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:58pm

  71. --that attitude is sure to keep you here complaining about why the liberal platform just can't seem to get passed...but at least you'll be happy being able to continue complaining

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:58pm

    And pray tell what great works you've accomplished posting on a blog?

    Oh complaining about complainers... A major task to be sure!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:02pm

  72. Complaining gone a'mock:

    "Are we really stripping counseling from health care because of what doctors might say? (We all know, given the chance, a doctor will always talk you into suicide. That's where the money is.) Why not forbid doctors from talking to patients at all, just to be safe? Call it the Palin-Grassley Freedom from Information Act."

    http://tinyurl.com/r3wtnh

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:17pm

  73. Obama complains about repub complaints:

    http://tinyurl.com/nrrbqh

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:37pm

  74. I pose a challenge to those in favor of privatized healthcare. Show me conclusive evidence, not hearsay and opinion but fact that universal healthcare is worse than privatized healthcare in all instances accross the board. Not just one country but in every country that has it.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 5:38pm

  75. And pray tell what great works you've accomplished posting on a blog?

    Oh complaining about complainers... A major task to be sure!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:02pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --no great works are accomplished on this blog, to be sure. but there are plenty of loudmouth liberals like you in real life. you turn people off the message with your attitude.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 5:39pm

  76. Answering a question about Medicaid changes from the mother of an autistic child, he said that the system as is doesn't provide good enough care: "Our system really is not a health care system, it's more like a disease care system. We wait until people get sick, and then we provide them with care," complained Obama.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:42pm

  77. --no great works are accomplished on this blog, to be sure. but there are plenty of loudmouth liberals like you in real life. you turn people off the message with your attitude.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 5:39pm

    So what are you complaining about now? This blog is your real life? And I'm intruding?

    Good.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:45pm

  78. I pose a challenge to those in favor of privatized healthcare. Show me conclusive evidence, not hearsay and opinion but fact that universal healthcare is worse than privatized healthcare in all instances accross the board. Not just one country but in every country that has it.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 5:38pm

    Why?

    1. It's not relevant. It doesn't matter what any other country does for healthcare. There is no way to do an apples to apples comparison between countries on this issue. Cultural differences, lifestyle differences, moral values, all come into play. Additionally, there are countries where doctors don't look at medicine as a business opportunity along side of providing medical care. Right or wrong, that is deeply ingrained in our culture.

    2. Than to cite that critics must satisfy your criteria via 100% of the sample is against all normal practices.

    This is a meaningless post by you.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 5:53pm

  79. By all means lets keep 'science' out of the Health debate...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:01pm

  80. As we know -- the French and Canadians, after all, are aliens from another planet. And import food from a different universe... Have different organs even!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:04pm

  81. They can thrive on pollution, bad food and stress, unlike Americans! That's the real reason they live longer. Plus they're from another planet. Did I already mention that?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:08pm

  82. Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:21pm

    What's your point??? Everybody who pays attention knows that Clinton governed from the center and that's why he was successful. How far bad do you want to go, Wilson, Roosevelt?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:12pm

  83. So what are you complaining about now? This blog is your real life? And I'm intruding?

    Good.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 5:45pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --again, you miss the point.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:17pm

  84. Why?

    1. It's not relevant. It doesn't matter what any other country does for healthcare. There is no way to do an apples to apples comparison between countries on this issue. Cultural differences, lifestyle differences, moral values, all come into play. Additionally, there are countries where doctors don't look at medicine as a business opportunity along side of providing medical care. Right or wrong, that is deeply ingrained in our culture.

    2. Than to cite that critics must satisfy your criteria via 100% of the sample is against all normal practices.

    This is a meaningless post by you.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 5:53pm

    No it actually isn't meaningless LVL. The biggest argument by conservatives is that universal healthcare is inferior to private healthcare. So I am asking anyone to prove that it is inferior. It actually has EVERYTHING to with this matter because the inferiority of universal healthcare is the centerpoint argument of this whole thing. If you want I can cite politicians saying that universal healthcare is inferior, of course with no actual information why.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:17pm

  85. I would say the majority of Americans who are afraid of universal healthcare are afraid of it because they think it will be inferior to private healthcare. Which means that questions such as those are very important to framing the debate.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:20pm

  86. -again, you miss the point.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:17pm

    Perhaps it's because you really have none!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:20pm

  87. hsubfools--i've already stated it; but i'll state it again. how you act here is, i'm sure, how you act with real people in real life (i.e. calling people who disagree with you politically "stupid" etc.). and i think doing that is counterproductive to getting liberal policies enacted. and maybe if you change your behavior here you'll change your behavior in real life.

    but probably not...

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:24pm

  88. Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 4:21pm

    I don't think we were talking trillions in Reagan and Bush's days. Whats happening now is downright frightening no matter what political stripe you are.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:26pm

  89. What you seem to be missing so far LVL is that this argument has left the realm of Constitutionality long ago. The major Republican voices and indeed the majority of the voices don't care about Constitutionality. They are arguing about quality of care. About "death panels" about rationing. I know you are solely concerned about Constitutionality but I would argue that the majority of the country is not. All they care about is what is going to be best quality of care received.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:26pm

  90. Our current Healthcare system is a financial wreck 1st of all. Secondly, it's killing us, literally, faster than other systems. It's a Healthcarelessness system for profit. It's like a clunker needing to be traded in for a better model.

    It has to be fixed or the repub shit continues.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:27pm

  91. How far bad do you want to go, Wilson, Roosevelt?

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:12pm

    In the above sentence 'bad' should be 'back'. My point was that I was talking about the Clinton Presidency not any others.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:31pm

  92. It has to be fixed or the repub shit continues.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:27pm

    I agree but it won't be fixed by democrats alone. That is not how our system works. There will be some compromise. It's the nature of a politician's survival.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:32pm

  93. the democrats are not really "in control" of everything. they gave bush everything he needed to destroy the country, and now, while in power, they continue, despite their clear advantage, to appease the same people who cheered on bush for 8 years.

    grassley has a big hand in the fate of this bill. and yet he, and several other republicans, to continue to lie and fear-monger about things that don't exist. it's amazing!

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 6:39pm

  94. We need a new FCC truth squad to prevent new Yellow Journalism and more unnecessary wars...

    The problem is described very well by: http://www.publictruth.org/content/view/122/26/

    "THE MEDIA CAN LEGALLY LIE Written by Jane Akre Sunday, 20 August 2006

    In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States...

    In a stunningly narrow interpretation of FCC rules, the Florida Appeals court claimed that the FCC policy against falsification of the news does not rise to the level of a "law, rule, or regulation," it was simply a "policy." Therefore, it is up to the station whether or not it wants to report honestly...

    The Bush FCC, under Michael Powell's leadership, has shown repeatedly that greater media consolidation is encouraged, that liars like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are perfectly acceptable, that to refer to the FCC interpretation of "editorial judgment" is to potentially throw out any pretense at editorial accuracy if the "accuracy" harms a large corporation and its bottom line...

    Indeed. This is what our corporate media, led by such as Rupert Murdoch, have come to. How low we have fallen."

    End of Article.

    Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/14/2009 @ 6:41pm

  95. Why does the evil Canadian health care system allow its citizens a longer life expectancy than the US? Does the cold stiffle the anti-christ's power up there?

    Posted by A.D.H.D. at 08/14/2009 @ 2:02pm

    Dunno.

    Ask Frosty.

    Posted by skeletonman at 08/14/2009 @ 6:41pm

  96. and maybe if you change your behavior here you'll change your behavior in real life.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:24pm

    You're kidding, right? That's your point? That the fictions repubs are putting out as facts are in need of respect? The repubs that have a long history of talking shit, putting our country in peril time and again, voter fraud, 9/11, New Orleans, Iraq, thousand dead, 100's of thousands disabled, and you want nice?

    Wimp.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:42pm

  97. the democrats are not really "in control" of everything. they gave bush everything he needed to destroy the country, and now, while in power, they continue, despite their clear advantage, to appease the same people who cheered on bush for 8 years.

    grassley has a big hand in the fate of this bill. and yet he, and several other republicans, to continue to lie and fear-monger about things that don't exist. it's amazing!

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 6:39pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    KILL WHITEY!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:44pm

  98. I love how chopped up the videos are. It reminds me of the Simpsons episode where Homer is quoted "I reached for her sweet can..."

    Dramitization here: http://fliiby.com/file/736199/s6kn8pg58q.html

    Everything Newt, Beck and Limbaugh were talking about was the government suggesting a living will INSTEAD OF MEDICAL TREATMENT.

    Of course, if you only want the liberal side of the news, keep getting your news from comedians and Air America loons.

    Posted by theMage at 08/14/2009 @ 6:44pm

  99. and maybe if you change your behavior here you'll change your behavior in real life.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:24pm

    You're kidding, right? That's your point? That the fictions repubs are putting out as facts are in need of respect? The repubs that have a long history of talking shit, putting our country in peril time and again, voter fraud, 9/11, New Orleans, Iraq, thousand dead, 100's of thousands disabled, and you want nice?

    Wimp.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I'm sure when you talk like this to real people they absorb your message.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:45pm

  100. KILL WHITEY!

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:44pm

    Wimp.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:47pm

  101. Wimp.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:42pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --I'm sure when you talk like this to real people they absorb your message.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:45pm

    Yep, they're wimps.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:48pm

  102. hsubfools--so why are you wasting time anonymously commenting under a blog? such a "strong" fella like yourself should be out twisting all the reluctant arms...

    or are you "wimping" out on the liberal agenda?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:51pm

  103. in a metacultural or metahistorical sense, whiteness doesn't mean white people

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 6:54pm

  104. Sometimes I'm here and sometimes I'm in other places. Obviously you wish I were somewhere else. Is it because you're a wimp?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:55pm

  105. in a metacultural or metahistorical sense, whiteness doesn't mean white people

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 6:54pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    so you're using "whiteness" to mean what exactly when it comes to the present day?

    and whatever you come up with--is it perhaps not more productive to just say you what that thing eradicated?...you know, instead of insulting white people?

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:57pm

  106. Sometimes I'm here and sometimes I'm in other places. Obviously you wish I were somewhere else. Is it because you're a wimp?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    turn on your sarcasm meter---YES! YOU'RE SCARY. AND PERSUASIVE!--turn it back off now.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:58pm

  107. Sometimes I'm here and sometimes I'm in other places. Obviously you wish I were somewhere else. Is it because you're a wimp?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    turn on your sarcasm meter---YES! YOU'RE SCARY. AND PERSUASIVE!--turn it back off now.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:58p

    Whatever it takes to live with yourself...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 7:04pm

  108. So it's not just the Blue Dog Democrats who are the stupid right-wingers?

    Posted by Mistral at 08/14/2009 @ 3:27pm

    I think that once you scratch the surface, you'll find that stupid right wingers are, in fact, stupid right wingers.

    Posted by skeletonman at 08/14/2009 @ 7:07pm

  109. Sometimes I'm here and sometimes I'm in other places. Obviously you wish I were somewhere else. Is it because you're a wimp?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 6:55pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    turn on your sarcasm meter---YES! YOU'RE SCARY. AND PERSUASIVE!--turn it back off now.

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 6:58p

    Whatever it takes to live with yourself...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 7:04pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    --seems like a "wimpy" response...

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 7:08pm

  110. Everything Newt, Beck and Limbaugh were talking about was the government suggesting a living will INSTEAD OF MEDICAL TREATMENT.

    Of course, if you only want the liberal side of the news, keep getting your news from comedians and Air America loons.

    Posted by theMage at 08/14/2009 @ 6:44pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Has it occurred to you that a living will might actually be a part of a total medical treatment plan?

    I thought not.

    Posted by skeletonman at 08/14/2009 @ 7:15pm

  111. <i>Posted by skeletonman at 08/14/2009 @ 7:15pm </i>

    A couple of other problems:

    1) Didn't one of those commenters talk about saving Medicare money? Seems like they've got some 'splaining to do too.

    2) Since when has the government suggested a living will instead of medical treatment? Leaving aside whether they're complementary (which I think, as skeleton points out, they clearly are), when has the government said "do this rather than medical treatment" at all?? You're only backing the lie up one step.

    Seriously people...it's not like T4 is coming back.

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/14/2009 @ 7:26pm

  112. No it actually isn't meaningless LVL. The biggest argument by conservatives is that universal healthcare is inferior to private healthcare. So I am asking anyone to prove that it is inferior. It actually has EVERYTHING to with this matter because the inferiority of universal healthcare is the centerpoint argument of this whole thing.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:17pm

    It's still meaningless for the reasons I cited, especially the impossibility of an apples to apples comparison.

    BTW, I've cited before some of the problems faced by other countries like France. Here is a recent one.

    <AUGUST 7, 2009 France Fights Universal Care's High Cost

    France claims it long ago achieved much of what today's U.S. health-care overhaul is seeking: It covers everyone, and provides what supporters say is high-quality care. But soaring costs are pushing the system into crisis. The result: As Congress fights over whether America should be more like France, the French government is trying to borrow U.S. tactics.

    In recent months, France imposed American-style "co-pays" on patients to try to throttle back prescription-drug costs and forced state hospitals to crack down on expenses. "A hospital doesn't need to be money-losing to provide good-quality treatment," President Nicolas Sarkozy thundered in a recent speech to doctors. French taxpayers fund a state health insurer, Assurance Maladie, proportionally to their income, and patients get treatment even if they can't pay for it.

    The problem is that Assurance Maladie has been in the red since 1989. This year the annual shortfall is expected to reach €9.4 billion ($13.5 billion), and €15 billion in 2010, or roughly 10% of its budget.>

    http://tinyurl.com/m2bkpt

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 7:28pm

  113. --seems like a "wimpy" response...

    Posted by urmygyro at 08/14/2009 @ 7:08pm

    When addressing a wimp-- I'm learning to try 'not' to be too scary.

    BTW, just wondering how wide a stance you'll take appeasing the somewhat pervy repubs? Do you really want to go down that impotent limpy road?

    Well, that's your thing. Power to you.

    In any case, I'm off to twist arms.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/14/2009 @ 7:34pm

  114. antisocialist said: The concern is about having govt entities who are charged with reducing the costs borne by the Govt, also influencing these decisions by the elderly.

    Either you leftists are completely blind to this conflict of interest, or (as is more likely), your obsession with this power grab over the lives of every American let's you conveniently ignore the truth.

    ----------------------------------------------

    1. We already have people (i.e. insurance companies and you yourself possibly) involved in this who have a clear conflict of interest.

    2. The liberals are willing to spend money to save lives in the current scenario. It is the conservatives who are screaming that we can't afford it (look at our infant mortality rate and life expectancy if you doubt that the current system costs lives).

    So

    if we never let you cheap, immoral bastards be in charge of it, all will be well.

    Posted by MaeS at 08/14/2009 @ 8:09pm

  115. "The result: As Congress fights over whether America should be more like France, the French government is trying to borrow U.S. tactics."

    (quote of the week)

    Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 8:26pm

  116. "death panels" are nothing new; corporate healthcare used them for years now. When a patient runs out of Medicare reinbursement because he/she has been too long in the ICU, the patient is immediately referred to palliative care. If the patient lingers, it costs the hospital too much.

    Posted by nursevic at 08/14/2009 @ 9:48pm

  117. "The result: As Congress fights over whether America should be more like France, the French government is trying to borrow U.S. tactics." (quote of the week) Posted by darladoon at 08/14/2009 @ 8:26pm

    You may want to read the article before bringing the snarkiness. French hospitals are starting "fee for service", the US system. And, OMG, they even have private insurance companies.

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 12:12am

  118. "Death panel" was slipped into Palin's twitty as a 'double' -- to overlay and take out "death squads" -- as in Central America under Elliot Abrams (jew). Death squards, aka politically targeted assassinations were approved last week for general use by this conscienceless cabal of Castholic (6 out of 9 SC judges) and Jewish (control everything else) anti-American hate state opertives (=>wherever they are, which used to not include America, a mere 200+ years ago).

    You see , if everybody keeps saying "Death, death, death, death death lol lol lol lol lol TWSS" -- lot more death on the panels heheh deathpanels "...discussing "health care", they won't care if there are regular death squads ... to help take care of the job. I mean, the soldier + National giard can't do ALL the work saving panicked citizens pleading for Swine Flu innoculatiions, making the world safe for rest of the pathological liars and psychotic killers. death death death,...heh heh... its not really Sarah's fault. She's just "got the power", LauraIngraham was warvelling. Boy, the left lib media sure love her!

    Posted by jones at 08/15/2009 @ 12:18am

  119. About negating treatment to older citizens. Does Medicare do that today? Have they ever done it? What will be the difference now? At least in the public system people will pay for their coverage as opposed to Medicare. So, what's the deal?

    I support the reform of health care, specially the public option that will put a brake on the oligopoly of the HMO's, eliminate 3rd men, and have great bargaining power with everyone specially the drug companies.

    However, there is always the temptation to underfund, or to do 'savings' such that managers will be "compensated" for their 'performance'. That is possible, and mechanisms shall be created to ensure that these "solutions" not be used anytime. However, it is not that what insurance companies do already with our seniors? I mean, our seniors are almost all of them with Medicare, but still some are in nursing homes and in other several private-contracted facilities which really do their best to make the most of any savings they can while delaying treatment. In other words, if Medicare were not available, HMO's would really kill thousands of Americans each year. Take that as a total truth if not only be by delaying treatments until the conditions get really bad.

    Conclusion: no nation can claim their health system is perfect. That's for sure. But a system like what is proposed today in the US (mixed public-private) will bring much more reasonable prices containing health care inflation and almost total coverage of the population. Specially for those times when people are having hard times such as when they are jobless or suffer a chronic condition.

    Posted by Frank42 at 08/15/2009 @ 12:21am

  120. In 1999, then Gov. George W. Bush, signed into law the Advanced Directives Act which allowed medical professionals to remove life support if they determined that there was no further hope of recovery.

    Removal of life support is permitted even over family members objections and the Bill also allowed the hospital to consider inability to pay the health insurance carrier of the patient.

    Isn't this law worse than the proposal to have end of life counseling?

    Where's the outrage over this?

    Posted by koroviev at 08/15/2009 @ 03:25am

  121. Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 7:28pm

    Actually you made my point perfectly. We are sitting here listening to Republican's talk about how crappy universal healthcare is. But you can't make a comparison. So all of their argument about the lack of quality in a universal system is meaningless because you can't draw comparisons. You can't pick one system say in France and ignore all the other working ones.

    Your article about France illustrates a point. That we need to find a healthy balance in between to make the system cost effective but also get decent affordable care. The funny thing about the cost issue is that it doesn't matter in the end. Whether an American gets their care from the government through taxes or from a medical insurer they still have to pay from their pocket. It will be cheaper to pay the government.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 03:39am

  122. "antisocialist said: The concern is about having govt entities who are charged with reducing the costs borne by the Govt, also influencing these decisions by the elderly.

    Either you leftists are completely blind to this conflict of interest, or (as is more likely), your obsession with this power grab over the lives of every American let's you conveniently ignore the truth. "

    Yet you somehow think private interests are going to be anymore benevolent? A private company who makes their money based on not giving out care? Give me a break. You are blind to reality.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 03:40am

  123. 1. We already have people (i.e. insurance companies and you yourself possibly) involved in this who have a clear conflict of interest.

    2. The liberals are willing to spend money to save lives in the current scenario. It is the conservatives who are screaming that we can't afford it (look at our infant mortality rate and life expectancy if you doubt that the current system costs lives).

    So

    if we never let you cheap, immoral bastards be in charge of it, all will be well.

    Posted by MaeS at 08/14/2009 @ 8:09pm

    The current system is handled by we presume as you think, right wingers. Which means we have a high infant mortality rate and low life expectancy because of them. Maybe we should take it out of the hands of the people who have been screwing it up for so long instead of just saying well, it's broken but let's just leave it alone.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 03:42am

  124. if we never let you cheap, immoral bastards be in charge of it, all will be well.

    Posted by MaeS at 08/14/2009 @ 8:09pm

    This line renders any other argument you deliver as inane childish idiocy by the way. Partisan stupidity is worthless in debate. If you actually think that liberals are less moral than you or less intelligent then you should go away because you aren't here to debate, you are just here to yell your opinion at others and not listen to theirs.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 03:43am

  125. In 1999, then Gov. George W. Bush, signed into law the Advanced Directives Act which allowed medical professionals to remove life support if they determined that there was no further hope of recovery.

    Removal of life support is permitted even over family members objections and the Bill also allowed the hospital to consider inability to pay the health insurance carrier of the patient.

    Posted by koroviev at 08/15/2009 @ 03:25am

    Continued from above...

    One provision of the Advanced Directives Act I forgot to mention was that the plug will not be pulled until there is a hearing by the hospital's ethics board.

    A board or panel who decides if a patient should be allowed to die.

    Posted by koroviev at 08/15/2009 @ 04:00am

  126. We need a new FCC truth squad to prevent new Yellow Journalism and more unnecessary wars...

    The problem is described very well by: http://www.publictruth.org/content/view/122/26/

    "THE MEDIA CAN LEGALLY LIE Written by Jane Akre Sunday, 20 August 2006

    In February 2003, a Florida Court of Appeals unanimously agreed with an assertion by FOX News that there is no rule against distorting or falsifying the news in the United States...

    In a stunningly narrow interpretation of FCC rules, the Florida Appeals court claimed that the FCC policy against falsification of the news does not rise to the level of a "law, rule, or regulation," it was simply a "policy." Therefore, it is up to the station whether or not it wants to report honestly...

    The Bush FCC, under Michael Powell's leadership, has shown repeatedly that greater media consolidation is encouraged, that liars like Rush Limbaugh and Ann Coulter are perfectly acceptable, that to refer to the FCC interpretation of "editorial judgment" is to potentially throw out any pretense at editorial accuracy if the "accuracy" harms a large corporation and its bottom line...

    Indeed. This is what our corporate media, led by such as Rupert Murdoch, have come to. How low we have fallen."

    End of Article.

    Posted by thanksbutnothanks at 08/15/2009 @ 06:05am

  127. posted by Cccomfo1 on 08/15/2009 @ 03:43am

    My reading of MaeS' post at 08/14/2009 @8:09pm was that she was replying to antisocialist & calling the conservatives, not the liberals, "cheap, immoral bastards". I don't care if it is "partisan rhetoric" I agree with her.

    Posted by cdlepthien at 08/15/2009 @ 07:31am

  128. Cdlepthien said: My reading of MaeS' post at 08/14/2009 @8:09pm was that she was replying to antisocialist & calling the conservatives, not the liberals, "cheap, immoral bastards". I don't care if it is "partisan rhetoric" I agree with her.

    --------------------------------------------

    You are indeed correct. For the record, I was kidding on the square (that is, I was kind of joking, but I really meant it).

    I mean, who would kill Granny to save a couple of bucks? Someone who cares more about cost containment than saving lives in the "death panel" scenario, no?

    What we have now in the right wing are people who would rather save on taxes than save lives. They aren't even saving money, as our present system is more expensive than any system the world, just taxes.

    Posted by MaeS at 08/15/2009 @ 08:16am

  129. Their afraid, Anti and the rest of the rightys are scared. I've asked Anti what he is afraid of, and he has never really answered. Some people are just afraid of change, Its like pulling teeth...with no novacaine.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 09:48am

  130. Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 09:48am

    Repubs are scared of their own shadows, (in the Jungian sense that is). That dark side of their nature that's taken them over.

    It's self-created; a mere myth, but to repubs-- it's their reconstructed reality.

    Their shadow-selves demands complete control-- unlike the flexibility required to live consciously; having a conscience, sharing space and time with others.

    Repubs turning to their own shadows happened once they started believing in their own manipulations to acquire total control.

    The repub dark-side, their shadow, is: paranoid, mean-spirited, nasty, secretive, evil, fraudulent, hypocritical, undisciplined, regressive, ... everything they said they were against. That is before they turned to their shadow selves to find that moment of respite, recreation, comfort in their delusional acquisition of total control.

    Now repubs fear those glimpses of an uncontrollable reality. The first black dem president fixing their mess. One where all repubs can do is continue to lie and blame others for their need to acquire total control of their uncontrollable shadow selves...

    Too late.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:01am

  131. hsuBfools, I used to say "for shame", but they have no shame.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 11:09am

  132. Actually you made my point perfectly. We are sitting here listening to Republican's talk about how crappy universal healthcare is. But you can't make a comparison. So all of their argument about the lack of quality in a universal system is meaningless because you can't draw comparisons. You can't pick one system say in France and ignore all the other working ones.

    Your article about France illustrates a point. That we need to find a healthy balance in between to make the system cost effective but also get decent affordable care. The funny thing about the cost issue is that it doesn't matter in the end. Whether an American gets their care from the government through taxes or from a medical insurer they still have to pay from their pocket. It will be cheaper to pay the government.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 03:39am

    You are still wrong. I stated quite clearly that it is impossible to do comparisons between countries given the various factors I previously cited.

    I added the article about France simply to demonstrate that UHC systems in Europe are falling apart. Like the other example I gave recently about Seniors leaving the UHC in Denmark

    <Private health insurance on the rise

    Reports indicate that the elderly are increasingly making use of the expanding private health insurance industry

    Private insurance companies are making headway in Denmark, with nearly a fifth of all residents now covered by an additional private policy, despite the country boasting one of the world's best public health care systems.

    In 2003, nearly 229,000 people had private health insurance. By last year that number had grown to over 983,000, with premiums increasing 42 percent and compensation payments rising a full 60 percent.>

    http://tinyurl.com/m4nchb

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/15/2009 @ 11:11am

  133. posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 9:48am

    I think they're afraid partly because it is so hard to keep track of what's going on - so it's easier to just simplify the issues & say the government is bad & private enterprise is good, even though in the case of health care all of the evidence points to the opposite.

    I'm scared of the government too, sometimes - so I have a partial understanding of where they are coming from. The corporations have too much power in the government (which is why we aren't going to get a decent health care bill).

    Posted by cdlepthien at 08/15/2009 @ 11:17am

  134. Their afraid, Anti and the rest of the rightys are scared. I've asked Anti what he is afraid of, and he has never really answered. Some people are just afraid of change, Its like pulling teeth...with no novacaine.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 09:48am

    If you actually bothered to read my posts you would know that fear has nothing to do with it. My arguments are based primarily on four points.

    1. Govt involvement in healthcare is unconstitutional. The 10th amendment leaves this power to the states if they wish.

    2. I don't want to be forced to participate and pay taxes or penalties for a healthcare system that I won't use. The proposed bills would mandate me purchasing either private or govt healthcare.

    3. I don't use any healthcare systems other than what I self administer through natural health methods. I have no need of doctors and hospitals.

    4. Most of the healthcare in this country is unneccessary even for those who believe in doctors. Americans have the resources and ability to care for most if not all of their healthcare needs without doctors and especially without prescription drugs (which I will not put into my body).

    I have self treated for a heart attack without need of a doctor or hospital.

    In the event of cancer or other debilitating disease, I believe people should accept that life brings these things and either G-d heals or we leave this life. Mankind has an obsession with playing G-d and trying to live forever.

    So Denise, fear has nothing to do with my position.

    And for you and bushfools, I am not a true Republican. I vote more often Republican because of the 2 party system and some of their positions. I vote in the presidential elections mostly 3rd party. I am a libertarian first before a Republican.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/15/2009 @ 11:23am

  135. Just as insurance companies co-exists with medicare/medicaid, so it will coexist with a government option for those under 65.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:26am

  136. hsuBfoolsm from your mouth...

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 11:53am

  137. The rich will always steer their own healthcare.

    It's the middle class and poor that can't afford the profit driven health insurance, medical care and pharmaceutical trifecta perfect storm tsunami that's rising.

    And who doesn't believe that the for profit incentive will ever cease without an even greater influence?

    There must be strict limits on profiting from creating misfortune that target our good health or our strong military or our accessible energy or our honest and open communication. I'd consider those national security issues that require protection from enemies from without or within or nation.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 12:03pm

  138. er, I'd consider those national security issues that require protection from enemies from without or 'from' within 'our' nation.

    er er, Just as insurance companies 'co-exist' with medicare/medicaid, so 'they' will 'also' coexist with a government option for those under 65.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 12:13pm

  139. antisocialist-How do you know that you had a heart attack if you never went to the doctor or hospital?Why do you believe that you decide what medical care is needed and what is not for other people?It is quite easy for you as an older person who has never had cancer to tell others to just suffer and die if they get it,but not all of us are as cold blooded as you and we cannot watch our loved ones suffer and do nothing while pretending to be superior because we did nothing.Your lack of faith prevents you from healing people at will and until you guys develop that level of faith we will continue to need doctors and you guys need to stay out of the way and work on your lack of faith.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/15/2009 @ 12:13pm

  140. I'm afraid it will take a tragedy of monumental proportions for the righties or Anti to wake up, but maybe it is hopeless, and the right will always be the right, sigh.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 12:19pm

  141. Really Anti, you would just expect them to die, well that was easy, do you ever think before you write, what, just god heals or die, you ought to put that on your license plate, sarcasm off.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 12:23pm

  142. "Unfortunately for celiac patients, the extra cost of a special diet is not reimbursed by health care plans. Nor do most policies pay for trips to a dietitian to receive nutritional guidance.

    In Britain, by contrast, patients found to have celiac disease are prescribed gluten-free products. In Italy, sufferers are given a stipend to spend on gluten-free food."

    http://tinyurl.com/ld9ajr

    And in a friend's case his daughter's undiagnosed celiac disease led to anorexia which then spiraled the cost of treatment exponentially requiring him to re-mortgage his house to pay for treatment his insurance wouldn't cover even thought the doctors said she'd die otherwise. He'd paid $500-750 monthly for health insurance for years and it took about a year of negotiations after treatment before his insurance company would reimbursed most of the cost. Luckily he had the assets to cover the cost initially otherwise his daughter would've been dead by then. He lost several thousand dollars to re-mortgage his home, but he'd say it was worth it. He'd never say his health insurance or the healthcare here in the USA is anywhere near approaching the best it can or should be. I can only guess how many people's loved ones have died because of the for profit incentive driving health care and insurance. 10's of thousands a year? More?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 1:08pm

  143. antisocialist-Because my wife married me she gets free medical care at military hospitals or she can use my free govt insurance to go to private doctors.Even though she is taken care of free of charge she has no problems paying higher taxes in order to help out her fellow humans with their health care.That is because she cares more about people than money unlike you who is complaining about higher taxes.You claim to be filled with the spirit of God and claim that your posts reflect Christs love,but that is not the case.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/15/2009 @ 1:13pm

  144. er, requiring him to re-mortgage his house to pay for treatment his insurance wouldn't cover even 'though' the doctors said she'd die otherwise

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 1:22pm

  145. I think we can just drop this whole thing - all that health stuff and, you know, taxes and things - because I just waved my magic wand, tossed out some fairy dust, and did a little dance to solve the whole darn problem. Now we don't need all those doctors, nurses, hospitals - you know, those things that the damned marxist totalitarian swastika bedecked lib'ruls are trying to pay for by stealing my hard earned money to promote their wild eyed schemes about equity, caring, equality, and all that fancy talkin' left wing nonsense.

    We will, of course, still need private insurance, and lots of it!

    Posted by Dwight Wall at 08/15/2009 @ 1:27pm

  146. "You are still wrong. I stated quite clearly that it is impossible to do comparisons between countries given the various factors I previously cited. "

    This is the land of childish argument why don't you actually give reason instead of just saying "NO YOUR WRONG, I'M RIGHT". My point about the system is exactly what your saying so how am I wrong, unless you are also wrong? I am saying we need a hybrid system. If we rely too much on private we fet price fixing and massively inflated prices.

    Why don't you try joining in with a constructive comment instead of just saying "you're wrong". A child can do that.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 3:14pm

  147. "In the event of cancer or other debilitating disease, I believe people should accept that life brings these things and either G-d heals or we leave this life. Mankind has an obsession with playing G-d and trying to live forever. "

    This is funny. This is a contention of knowing what God wants even though he hasn't told you. How do you know that the reason we have our medicine isn't because God gave it to us? God inspired the cures for all these diseases because he wants us to use them? I guess that's impossible and only YOU know what God wants.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 3:17pm

  148. Here's the archived remarks/official proclamation from the State of Alaska website!! Gotta love those archivists!! I guess it's ok for 'the lovely Sarah' to intervene in the patient's health care decisions as governor, but, not one of those libbie Feds! Palin needs to "Stop makin' things up!"

    http://www.gov.state.ak.us/archive.php?id=1094&type=6 Healthcare Decisions Day

    Posted by alaskadiva at 08/15/2009 @ 3:21pm

  149. What we have NOW IS "EXPENSIVE CUBA CARE!" US at #37, on PAR with Cuba at #39

    And we pay 134% more than the Median for rated Countries!

    1 Million Medical Bankruptcies!

    12 Million discriminated against because of pre-existing conditions!

    18,000 People Die from lack of coverage!

    We live shorter lives and are less healthy!

    SAVE TAXES+MONEY with Single-Payer the Optimal Plan! CBO MUST EVALUATE IT!

    CBO SAYS STRONG PUBLIC OPTION SAVES MOST OF PLANS EVALUATED TO DATE! $150 BILLION SAVINGS! REVENUE POSITIVE!

    http://tinyurl.com/ofbtxk

    PhilipTaylor Posted 05:58 PM on 08/15/2009

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 5:19pm

  150. http://tinyurl.com/ljobu8

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 5:25pm

  151. http://tinyurl.com/nby6z8

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 5:31pm

  152. Obama's kicking butt.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 5:46pm

  153. Our "welfare" state nanny government which Obamanation and the Demoncrats so love does have its consequenses;

    In South Los Angeles , a fire destroyed a four-plex.

    A Nigerian family of six con artists lived on the first floor, and all six died in the fire.

    An Islamic group of seven Kenyan welfare cheats, all illegally in the country, lived on the second floor, and they, too, all perished in the fire..

    Six LA, Hispanic, Gang Banger, ex-cons lived on the 3rd floor and they too, died.

    One white couple lived on the top floor. The couple survived the fire.

    Jesse Jackson, John Burris and Al Sharpton were furious. They flew into LA and quickly demanded a meeting with the fire chief.

    On camera, they loudly demanded to know why the Blacks, Black Muslims and Hispanics all died in the fire and only the white couple lived.

    The fire chief replied, "They were at work."

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 6:30pm

  154. Obama Goes After Politicians Spreading "Death Panels" Lie At Colorado Town Hall:

    "What you can't do, or you can, but you shouldn't do -- is start saying things like we want to set up death panels to pull the plug on grandma." President Obama paused and grew emotional, "First of all, when you make a comment like that, I just lost my grandmother last year... I know what its like to watch somebody you love, who's aging, deteriorate... When you start making arguments like that, that's simply dishonest. Especially when I hear the arguments coming from members of congress in the other party, who, it turns out, sponsored similar provisions!"

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

  155. "But whether you have health insurance or not, we all know that we cannot continue down this path, with costs rising far faster than wages and cuts in care to make up the difference: a system that too often works better for the insurance companies than it does for the American people. That's why reform is so important: to maintain what's best about our health care system - the relationship between doctors, nurses, and their patients - while fixing what's broken.

    Because for all the scare tactics out there, what is truly scary is if we do nothing. We will continue to see 14,000 Americans lose their health insurance every day. Premiums will continue to skyrocket, rising three times faster than wages. The deficit will continue to grow. Medicare will go into the red in less than a decade. And insurance companies will continue to profit by discriminating against people simply for being sick.

    So if you want a different future - a brighter future - I need your help. I need you to stand against the politics of fear and division. I need you to knock on doors and spread the word. I need you to fight for the security and stability of quality, affordable health care for every American. For we know that change never starts in Washington. It starts in places like Grand Junction. It starts with folks willing to fight for our future. It starts with you."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 6:46pm

  156. Posted by PigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 6:30bm

    http://www.snopes.com/racial/humor/housefire.asp

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 7:01pm

  157. Obama Goes After Politicians Spreading "Death Panels" Lie At Colorado Town Hall: "What you can't do, or you can, but you shouldn't do -- is start saying things like we want to set up death panels to pull the plug on grandma." President Obama paused and grew emotional, "First of all, when you make a comment like that, I just lost my grandmother last year... I know what its like to watch somebody you love, who's aging, deteriorate... When you start making arguments like that, that's simply dishonest. Especially when I hear the arguments coming from members of congress in the other party, who, it turns out, sponsored similar provisions!" Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

    Granted that "death panels" is a little overstated, but this link provides a more nuanced, but much more valid assertion regarding the bill:

    http://tinyurl.com/kp599p

    Also, any concerns are valid, since very few people have actually READ the bill, so arguing about what it does, or doesn't do, is disingenious.

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:14pm

  158. "Repubs are scared of their own shadows, (in the Jungian sense that is). That dark side of their nature that's taken them over. It's self-created; a mere myth, but to repubs-- it's their reconstructed reality. Their shadow-selves demands complete control-- unlike the flexibility required to live consciously; having a conscience, sharing space and time with others. Repubs turning to their own shadows happened once they started believing in their own manipulations to acquire total control. The repub dark-side, their shadow, is: paranoid, mean-spirited, nasty, secretive, evil, fraudulent, hypocritical, undisciplined, regressive, ... everything they said they were against. That is before they turned to their shadow selves to find that moment of respite, recreation, comfort in their delusional acquisition of total control. Now repubs fear those glimpses of an uncontrollable reality. The first black dem president fixing their mess. One where all repubs can do is continue to lie and blame others for their need to acquire total control of their uncontrollable shadow selves... Too late." Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:01am

    I'll bet you don't know a SINGLE repub, do you?

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:16pm

  159. The spirit of the devil and the spirit of G-d cannot reside in the same person.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm

    prove it.

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/15/2009 @ 7:21pm

  160. "Their afraid, Anti and the rest of the rightys are scared. I've asked Anti what he is afraid of, and he has never really answered. Some people are just afraid of change, Its like pulling teeth...with no novacaine." Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 09:48am

    I can help you out. What "rightys", and 68% of US adults (Rasmussen) are concerned about, is that their healthcare coverage, which they they rate "good" or "excellent", will disappear under Obamacare. I would say that is a legitimate concern, wouldn't you? Or should we just trust the government to get it right from the start?

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:22pm

  161. I don't think we were talking trillions in Reagan and Bush's days.

    Posted by gunslinger1 at 08/14/2009 @ 6:26pm

    reagan doubled the u.s. national debt.

    yes, in trillions.

    don't confuse budget deficit with debt.

    also,

    "What cost $1 in 1982 would cost $2.20 in 2008."

    Posted by frosty zoom at 08/15/2009 @ 7:28pm

  162. Leftist are truely brain washed and brain dead! Who do you think is behind Obamanation and the Demoncrats...those with the most to gain and they are paying big money. And that is saying nothing about the secret meeting at the White House with some of the key players. They are playing ya'll like an orchestra and you just sing along!

    President Barack Obama's healthcare push is getting a boost from a coalition of drugmakers, unions, hospitals and others that have launched a $12 million pro-overhaul ad campaign.

    The administration, meanwhile, sought to regain control of the healthcare debate by asking supporters to forward a chain e-mail to counter criticism circulating online.

    The new ad airing in a dozen states is being paid for by a new coalition called Americans for Stable Quality Care. Members include Families USA, the Service Employees International Union, the drug lobby Pharmaceutical Research and Manufacturers of America, American Medical Association and Federation of American Hospitals.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 9:06pm

  163. No twillie, lets trust the for profit insurance company's instead OK, I mean they care about us so much more that the gubbermint, right, get a clue, why is it always about your wallet with you guys, huh, instead of the common good? THE COMMON GOOD, ever heard about the concept, like maybe in Sunday school, or the boy or girl scouts. God its like talking to a wall!

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 9:06pm

  164. Obamanation thinks he is still campaigning and doesn't have a clue that he won the election!

    A look at President Obama's health care "town hall" Tuesday in Portsmouth, N.H., shows the president out-spoke his audience by a ratio of nearly 9-to-1.

    Here's the scorecard.

    Obama: 8,619 words.

    Audience: 1,186 words.

    That's hardly the kind of even-handed exchange of ideas that marked the town meetings of colonial America.

    If the American people want to be PREACHED to they will attend the church of their choice! What is even worse is everytime he opens his mouth he is either lieing about something or totally misrepresenting the facts, statistics, and more importantly his real INTENT!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 9:09pm

  165. uh than the government, thanks, (bow and back off).

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/15/2009 @ 9:10pm

  166. The majority of Americans who fear their taxes would go up under the House Democrats' proposed healthcare overhaul probably have good reason for their angst, suggests the senior economist for a nonpartisan, nonprofit educational organization.

    "It does cost revenue, as the Congressional Budget Office numbers show," Gerald Prante of the Tax Foundation tells Newsmax. "So you have to pay for that somehow, and the House bill actually includes a surtax that would be imposed on high-income taxpayers, those making above $350,000."

    Would there be enough money raised from high-income earners, or would the Democratic plan necessitate a tax increase on the middle class?

    "In order to fund the plan that's in the House bill, they'd have to go for revenues from somewhere else. They'd either have to raise taxes on people under that 350,000 threshold or make cuts to other spending, possibly Medicare cuts," Prante says.

    "They talked about reducing payments to Medicare providers. That's one way that the Obama administration has talked about saving money to pay for health insurance."

    Prante notes both employers and employees would be subject to taxes to pay for mandatory health insurance, and individuals would face tax penalties for noncompliance.

    "Generally, an employer with more than $250,000 in payroll would have to pay a tax up to 8 percent to the government, 8 percent of its payroll if it does not offer health insurance to its employees. That would be the employer tax. On the employee side, if someone doesn't have health insurance and he makes a reasonable amount of money, then he has to pay 2.5 percent tax on his AGI (adjusted gross income) up to a certain amount into the national health insurance exchange because he doesn't have health insurance."

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 9:20pm

  167. Prante points out that people who are self-employed or make their living as freelancers would be forced to buy their own health insurance, but could get some government assistance depending on their income.

    "If he makes less than, say, 400 percent of the poverty level, then he could get subsidies from the government to purchase it through the health insurance exchange. Basically he'd have to purchase it through the exchange, which includes private companies or the public option, otherwise if he doesn't buy it he has to pay a tax."

    All these LIES and Fairytales you keep hearing from Obamanation and the Demoncrats are just that!

    You will pay and pay and pay more and more not just for your healthcare but for everyone not a citizens and not working! That does not include the massive black hole of debt already against medicare and medicaid!

    Ther will be no economic upturn, no new jobs, in fact you will see less jobs and less businesses so who and how will pay for this drain on our economy?

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 9:24pm

  168. The Europeon economy is rebounding and their healthcare more and more reflects the system we have. It this passes you can forget your future, your childrens, grandchildrens...on into infinity!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 9:27pm

  169. Posted by PigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 6:30bm

    http://www.snopes.com/racial/humor/housefire.asp

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 7:01pm | ignore this person | warn this person

    Inconcievable that anyone except someone that doesnt get "dumb blond" jokes would actually;

    1. explore the obvious false story

    2. not get that it is ridiculing the reinstatement of welfare by Obamanation and the Demoncrats, our state dept, and ICE practicing policies of immigration that not even the repubs would do anything about that continue to destroy it!

    Goes to show you there is nothing nuttier than leftist!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 10:50pm

  170. ... Especially when I hear the arguments coming from members of congress in the other party, who, it turns out, sponsored similar provisions!"

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 6:42pm

    but this link provides a more nuanced, but much more valid assertion regarding the bill:

    http://tinyurl.com/kp599p

    Also, any concerns are valid, since very few people have actually READ the bill, so arguing about what it does, or doesn't do, is disingenuous.

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:14pm

    So you're calling Obama disingenuous when you know he's read the bills? And saying nuanced distortion and fictitious scenarios are more valid than the factual experience of our pres?

    Obviously the more nuance article you linked has many obvious flaws. The writer sees doctors as unprofessional death merchants simply wanting people to die... But then ends his paranoid excursion to the dark side stating that it's the bean counters that will be doing the deed!?!

    Just more made up far right exposed fearful shadow paranoia.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:10pm

  171. ...Now repubs fear those glimpses of an uncontrollable reality. The first black dem president fixing their mess. One where all repubs can do is continue to lie and blame others for their need to acquire total control of their uncontrollable shadow selves...

    Too late."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:01am

    I'll bet you don't know a SINGLE repub, do you?

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:16pm

    Lots and they're scared just like you, you little shadow of a person you.>

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:11pm

  172. Goes to show you there is nothing nuttier than leftist!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 10:50pm

    Better than you nutless repubs with feelings of inadequacy...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:16pm

  173. So sorry , not republican ever.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 11:36pm

  174. Intresting there seems to be no discussion of polls these days by the leftist, kinda makes you go hmmmm.....

    President Barack Obama's approval rating continues to plunge -- only 47 percent of voters say they at least somewhat approve of his job performance, the lowest figure yet recorded, a poll by Rasmussen Reports reveals.

    Obama's approval rating has declined steadily since it stood at 65 percent when he took office.

    The Rasmussen Reports daily Presidential Tracking Poll for Thursday discloses that just 29 percent of likely voters now strongly approve of Obama's performance, while 37 percent strongly disapprove.

    That gives the president a Presidential Approval Index of minus-8. That Index is computed by subtracting the "strongly disapprove" figure from the "strongly approve" percentage.

    Most troubling for the Democrats, perhaps, is that 65 percent of independent voters now disapprove of Obama's performance.

    Among the findings of the latest Rasmussen poll:

    Support for the healthcare reform plan proposed by Obama and congressional Democrats has fallen to a new low -- just 42 percent favor the plan, while 53 percent oppose it.

    In the Virginia governor's race, Republican Bob McDonnell has a 9-point lead over Democrat R. Creigh Deeds -- 47 percent of respondents said they would vote for McDonnell if the election were held today, 38 percent chose Deeds, and the rest would choose another candidate or are undecided.

    In the New Jersey governor's race, incumbent Democrat Jon Corzine trails Republican Chris Christie by 13 percentage points.

    In Pennsylvania, Republican-turned-Democratic Sen. Arlen Specter trails Republican challenger Pat Toomey by 12 percentage points.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 11:49pm

  175. Intresting that any poll tied to the liberal big three broadcasters just loves Obamanation and his assured deathcare program!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 11:54pm

  176. Funny how Obamanation, the Demoncrats, and all the leftwingnut fringe groups have spent over $48 million, not counting the new $12 million dollars trying to sell this dead pig in a poke. Even with 6 to 1 spending they still can't convince Americans they are not the socialistic marxist leaning faction of America we KNOW they are just reaching for more political power at the expense of liberty and freedom!

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/16/2009 @ 12:10am

  177. The parallel polling numbers is an interesting coincidence to be sure. But here's where the polling comparisons will have to stop...

    Job approval - GWhsuB

    Gallop - 8/24-26/01__55__36

    Pew - 8/21 - 9/5/01__ 51__34

    Job approval - BHObama

    Gallop - 8/12-14/09__55__37

    Pew- 7/22-26/09 ___ 54__34

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:17am

  178. The spirit of the devil and the spirit of G-d cannot reside in the same person.Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Now that is a blanket statement that deserves and entire debate of it's own..

    So much to do and so little time..

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/16/2009 @ 12:26am

  179. Other polls that don't change much...

    "Do you approve or disapprove of the way the Republicans in Congress are handling their job?"

    Quinnipiac University Poll. July 27-Aug. 3, 2009. N=2,409 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 2.

    29___59___12

    Diageo/Hotline Poll conducted by FD. July 9-13, 2009. N=800 registered voters nationwide. MoE ± 3.5.

    29___59___12

    Pew Research Center Poll. June 10-14, 2009. N=1,502 adults nationwide. MoE ± 3.

    29___56___15

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:33am

  180. So sorry , not republican ever.

    Posted by BigPasture at 08/15/2009 @ 11:36pm

    In denial... and inadequate!

    No, I'm sorry for you...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:40am

  181. trying to sell this dead pig in a poke. Posted by BigPasture at 08/16/2009 @ 12:10am

    "Dead Pig in a Poke", Uh.. Rio you really should have left out the "dead" part. Since the phrase "Pig in a Poke" was used as a trick in the middle ages to indicate that a wriggling pig was in the bag. The trick was in substituting a Cat for the Pig. And "Let the Cat out of the Bag" would expose the trick.

    In any case, you have to have a live cat before you have the "trick".

    To determine if the Cat is alive or dead, or both states at the same time, read the Schrodinger's Cat thought experiment.

    Sorry, but I'm getting a bit tired of this endless debate on Healthcare. It is really a no brainer.

    Posted by chaoszen at 08/16/2009 @ 12:54am

  182. Speaking of Rasmussen Reports:

    http://tinyurl.com/kk2nt5

    Nice.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:55am

  183. More Rasmussen Reports:

    http://tinyurl.com/qeo5yn

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 01:02am

  184. I'm gonna start carrying an extinguisher, just in case.

    Posted by snowball777 at 08/14/2009 @ 10:49am

    Nah, bring marshmallows.

    --------------

    So, as usual Larry is against what he does for a living. Is this a result of living with the anti christ in your soul while at the same time decrying the anti Christ? Most likely.

    Larry, did you know that Obama wants to take white babies from their parents and give them to welfare mothers (all black and lazy, of course)? It's true!!!! Marxists are like that.

    ----

    I'll bet you don't know a SINGLE repub, do you?

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:16pm

    We know the ones that come around here, spreading lies and fear. I have never seen such a group of weak kneed scaredy cats as those that come to The Nation and help the Talking Heads from the right wing MSM spread disinformation. They take points from Palin and other disreputable sources and treat them like fact. then, they decry the "lies of the left" and the MSM. Too rich for words, really.

    Again, Twill, look at who your info is coming from...they told you in no uncertain terms that Saddam had wmd's, nuclear plants, drone planes, ties with AQ and was a threat to you. Instead of reading Obams words and actions, they told you to fear his pastor and someone that shared a board with multiple republicans. Now they are telling you about "death panels" and bureaucrats doing what bureaucrats already do for profit.

    Sad that you would stick with the same old same old...But, it beats thinking.

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/16/2009 @ 07:23am

  185. Rachel just made Dick shit in his pants on MTP. He indeed needed that TP...

    BWAHahahahahahah. Priceless!

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 10:14am

  186. Just saw that myself, thank you Rachel.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 10:16am

  187. We need more of this, but the news programs need their boogey strawmen and women(think Sarah) too.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 10:18am

  188. Dick Army is melting down. Just admitted he wants to do away with social security and medicare! He's just gots to be free...

    Talk about a selfish prick...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 10:40am

  189. Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 10:18am

    Yeah, wish Rachel were the host holding their feet to the fire.

    Or that all the other journalists (using the term loosely) took a cue/clue from her.

    Dick was reduced to mumbling at the end. Did he take a few swigs of something between takes? He sure was slurring his words. Stroke? A truly sad pitiful little man.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 11:06am

  190. Yes, no hopey changey there, as Happy would say, why they even give air time to these people is beyond me, but maybe it will help to have these idiots spew their venom in public.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 11:27am

  191. http://tinyurl.com/kontx3

    The comments are a must read.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:23pm

  192. So, as usual Larry is against what he does for a living. Is this a result of living with the anti christ in your soul while at the same time decrying the anti Christ? Most likely.

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/16/2009 @ 07:23am

    I don't sell health insurance

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:30pm

  193. Rachel Maddow showed on Meet the Press that she favors totalitarian govt and hates liberty.

    She mocked the idea that anyone should have the freedom to opt out of Medicare.

    this is the kind of person that the left holds up as admirable. I guess that means they agree with her that the govt should restrict our freedoms.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:32pm

  194. This is funny. This is a contention of knowing what God wants even though he hasn't told you. How do you know that the reason we have our medicine isn't because God gave it to us? God inspired the cures for all these diseases because he wants us to use them? I guess that's impossible and only YOU know what God wants.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/15/2009 @ 3:17pm

    What your response represents is mocking people of faith.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:40pm

  195. Dick Army is melting down. Just admitted he wants to do away with social security and medicare! He's just gots to be free...

    Talk about a selfish prick...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 10:40am

    Dick Armey made Maddow look the like the foolish marxist that she is. He successfully drew her out into mocking liberty for Americans. He showed she favors a totalitarian govt.

    Thank you Dick Armey for showing viewers what a danger to our freedoms people like Maddow represent.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:43pm

  196. antisol--

    Yelling firer in a theatre when there's no fire is against the law.

    Driving a car without car insurance is against the law.

    Yet Liver wants the freedom to do so.

    Liver wants the freedom to not be a nation of the people. No roads. No army. No gov.

    All unpaid for by the people for the people.

    Liver wants chaos for the god he worships.

    You go Liver.

    Ha, just go there.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:45pm

  197. I recommend them to all of my insurance clients.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

    I don't sell health insurance

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:30pm

    Ssooo what kind of insurance do you sell?

    Term life?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:48pm

  198. Enough with the freedoms already, no one, least of all the "lefties" want to take away your freedoms, I want to give more freedom to the people concerning HC, as it is now the insurance company's decide, that needs to change, and it won't if the wolves are in charge of the henhouse.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 12:48pm

  199. Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:43pm

    Liver is a perfect example of delusional far right repub shadow life.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:50pm

  200. antisocialist-In no way shape or form did CCCs response to you constitute a mocking of people of faith,but your response to him was your usual way to avoid questions asked of you and to avoid facts and good points presented to you.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/16/2009 @ 1:06pm

  201. Ssooo what kind of insurance do you sell?

    Term life?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:48pm

    It depends on the needs and finances of my clients. I do a lot of retirement planning through the tax free opportunities with life insurance.

    I also sell dental insurance, homeowners, auto, business liability, workmans com, umbrella liability, key man, deferred compensation, 401k plans, IRAs, etc.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 1:06pm

  202. Yelling firer in a theatre when there's no fire is against the law.

    Driving a car without car insurance is against the law.

    Yet Liver wants the freedom to do so.

    Liver wants the freedom to not be a nation of the people. No roads. No army. No gov.

    All unpaid for by the people for the people.

    Liver wants chaos for the god he worships.

    You go Liver.

    Ha, just go there.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:45pm

    Nonsense, I've said just the opposite.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 1:09pm

  203. antisocialist-The fact that you decided that Maddow is totalitarian and hates liberty does not mean that she does since you look for that and read that into anything someone from the left says.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/16/2009 @ 1:09pm

  204. Nonsense, I've said just the opposite.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 1:09pm

    So you believe in the common good?

    http://tinyurl.com/n33c4m

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 1:18pm

  205. I recommend them to all of my insurance clients.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 11:34am

    So, as usual Larry is against what he does for a living.

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/16/2009 @ 07:23am

    I don't sell health insurance

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:30pm

    Ssooo what kind of insurance do you sell? Term life?

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 12:48pm

    It depends on the needs and finances of my clients.

    I also sell dental insurance,...

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 1:06pm

    But never health insurance...

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/16/2009 @ 2:13pm

  206. You might want to get Rush's, Newt's and Sarah's take on these assertions.

    Posted by pyeatte at 08/16/2009 @ 2:22pm

  207. No Anti, you are mocking people of faith, do unto others as you would have done unto you, remember! You would have people just die from cancer than see them get help from the govt. Thats what you said, I take you at your word, not very christian of you eh.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 2:50pm

  208. No Anti, you are mocking people of faith, do unto others as you would have done unto you, remember! You would have people just die from cancer than see them get help from the govt. Thats what you said, I take you at your word, not very christian of you eh.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 2:50pm

    No your response is the one that is both ignorant and one that mocks.

    Show me where in scripture a Christian is required to use the world's answers to problems (ie healthcare).

    Furthermore, you elevate this life over eternal life. I'm more concerned with life after death than to be obsessed with this one.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 6:25pm

  209. No Anti, you are mocking people of faith, do unto others as you would have done unto you, remember! You would have people just die from cancer than see them get help from the govt. Thats what you said, I take you at your word, not very christian of you eh.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 2:50pm

    I am doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. I don't want anyone forcing me into coverage I don't want. I want people to exercise their freedom to decide for themselves. So, I'm being consistent.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 6:39pm

  210. What your response represents is mocking people of faith.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Actually I have no problem with people of faith. As I have said before, my grand parents are extremely faithful. Instead of constantly playing the victim you should actually try to talk about what I said. How DO you know that God did not help in the creation of modern medicine so that you didn't just sit back and not go to the hospital? Instead of answering the question you are just relying on painting me as bigoted. But if you knew anything about me you know that calling me bigoted against the faithful is like me calling you racist against blacks.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/16/2009 @ 8:22pm

  211. antisocialist-You are obsessed with politics and politics is all about this life and not the next one.You are just as into this life as everyone else or you would not be on here obsessing on things that only pertain to this life.It is this life that you spend most of your day concerned with.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/16/2009 @ 9:34pm

  212. What your response represents is mocking people of faith.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 12:40pm

    Actually I have no problem with people of faith. As I have said before, my grand parents are extremely faithful. Instead of constantly playing the victim you should actually try to talk about what I said. How DO you know that God did not help in the creation of modern medicine so that you didn't just sit back and not go to the hospital? Instead of answering the question you are just relying on painting me as bigoted. But if you knew anything about me you know that calling me bigoted against the faithful is like me calling you racist against blacks.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/16/2009 @ 8:22pm

    Because you are mocking me for believing in faith rather than men. Why do you feel we need to live longer? If we are taken by a disease, it is just part of the natural cycle of life. Like Denise, you seem obsessed with this life.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 9:54pm

  213. ccomfo1,thanks for the heads up, but with Anti it does not help, he says when you get ill with a killing cancer or a hurting illness, for GODS sake just die already, not thinking that maybe god, if there is one, had something to do with being able to help human kind. Nice no.

    Posted by Denise29 at 08/16/2009 @ 10:37pm

  214. Because you are mocking me for believing in faith rather than men. Why do you feel we need to live longer? If we are taken by a disease, it is just part of the natural cycle of life. Like Denise, you seem obsessed with this life.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 9:54p

    I am saying that maybe your faith is misplaced. Just because you have faith in something that you THINK is right doesn't mean it actually is. Mormons have tons of faith in the stuff they believe in does that mean you think their belief is right? Is you criticizing their beliefs mocking them? I am not mocking you in any way. I think I would know considering you are making assertions about the intent behind my words. I am not mocking you I am simply asking how do you know that God did not mean for us to have medicine to fight the diseases.

    "Like Denise, you seem obsessed with this life."

    I am not obsessed with this life. If I was ever stricken with something that was for sure going to kill me I would not drag it out. But if I am stricken with something treatable you better bet I am going to get treatment.

    You are basically saying that God chooses when you are going to go but thanks to modern medicine we can go against God's choice of time. You think humans would have enough power to defy God if it is in fact their time to go? Your argument is contradictory. If it is your time to go then no modern medicine will save you. However if it is not your time to go then the treatment will work. Which is why I find it slightly odd that you posit that getting medical treatment is somehow against God's will.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/16/2009 @ 11:49pm

  215. You are basically saying that God chooses when you are going to go but thanks to modern medicine we can go against God's choice of time. You think humans would have enough power to defy God if it is in fact their time to go? Your argument is contradictory. If it is your time to go then no modern medicine will save you. However if it is not your time to go then the treatment will work. Which is why I find it slightly odd that you posit that getting medical treatment is somehow against God's will.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/16/2009 @ 11:49pm

    I'm not saying everyone must believe as I do about faith and health. The Bible says to each, He has given a measure of faith. That has been my practice of faith as much as possible. The older I get, the more I'm certain that at least for me, it is how I should live. I do not impose it on others. Everyone must decide within themselves what is right on this issue.

    As to your other question, No I do not believe that cures are from G-d. I believe it is solely man's effort to supplant G-d. But again, that is my view and I don't impose it on others.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 12:01am

  216. As to your other question, No I do not believe that cures are from G-d. I believe it is solely man's effort to supplant G-d. But again, that is my view and I don't impose it on others.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 12:01am

    So then you are saying man can defy God's will and heal themselves despite it being their time to die according to God's plans?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:15am

  217. Hey anti -

    J_s_s Chr_st, Vanna wants to know if you wanna buy a vowel.

    Posted by vaguelyinterested at 08/17/2009 @ 01:01am

  218. Here's a question LVL, if you break your leg do you use modern medicine to fix it? And what constitutes "modern medicine"?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 02:35am

  219. All the confusion and hype from both sides of the health care debate are continuing to obscure the realities of health care in America and this great magazine/website/blog continues to do its share of the obscuring. And the reason is simple, both the conservatives and the liberals are in the pocket of the health care industry (i.e., HMOs, insurance companies and the foreign investment banks of Wall St.) For anyone wishing to cut through the conservative & liberal lies on the health of Americans, you can start by reading The Nation's contributor Alex Cockburn's article (on his website CounterPunch), "Health Plans and Death Plans" at http://www.counterpunch.org/cockburn08142009.html.

    When will the rest of The Nation's writers & editors stop being mouthpieces for the DNC, White House and the Pelosi/Reid congress. The purpose of the left should be to speak truth to power not parrot the power. The Nation did a great job of truth telling during the reign of Bush/Cheney, but now under Obama/Emanuel/Reid/Pelosi regime all The Nation seems to be able to do is to discover that there is a vast right-wing conspiracy. I think we knew that. The Nation's readers deserve better. Americans need the real truth, not the same old lies of the conservative vs. liberal paradigm that we see in every blog on this issue on this website. Otherwise, in the end there can be only one and that one will be the same old power running health care in this country. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

    Posted by perryfellwock at 08/17/2009 @ 06:56am

  220. Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:15am

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 02:35am

    I guarentee Larry's response will be "yes and no" in style. He can't deny ALL medical attempts, else he's some kind of "fundamentalist Christian Scientist"....but he'll come up with some cases where he opposes "extreme measures" to prolong life.

    Naturally, he'll be vague and not be able to give definitive qualifiers for what is "okay" and what is "trying to supplant God". Cure a child's leukemia? What about a 40 year old's? What about a 70 year old's? What if a long and expensive surgical procedure would give a patient a 50-50 chance at survival?

    Specific cases like that, he wouldn't be able to answer.

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 08:03am

  221. I am doing unto others as I would have them do unto me. I don't want anyone forcing me into paying for (roads, wars, a government or the common welfare) I don't want. I want people to exercise their freedom to decide for themselves. So, I'm being consistent.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/16/2009 @ 6:39pm

    An unending crevasse of inanity... most probably due to DU ingestion.

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/17/2009 @ 08:50am

  222. Here's a question LVL, if you break your leg do you use modern medicine to fix it? And what constitutes "modern medicine"?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 02:35am

    I did suffer a broken knee about 3 years ago. I let prayer and time heal it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:06am

  223. I guarentee Larry's response will be "yes and no" in style. He can't deny ALL medical attempts, else he's some kind of "fundamentalist Christian Scientist"....but he'll come up with some cases where he opposes "extreme measures" to prolong life.

    Naturally, he'll be vague and not be able to give definitive qualifiers for what is "okay" and what is "trying to supplant God". Cure a child's leukemia? What about a 40 year old's? What about a 70 year old's? What if a long and expensive surgical procedure would give a patient a 50-50 chance at survival?

    Specific cases like that, he wouldn't be able to answer.

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 08:03am

    I said Mask that I don't impose my beliefs on others so I'm not sure why you are posing questions about others.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:08am

  224. antisocialist-Jesus cured people and you have claimed to have done a handful of healing miracles.If those cures are not from God,like you said to Ccc,then who caused those cures to happen?You said that you treated yourself for a heart attack.The fact that you treated yourself rather than just die suggests that you wish to defy death.Why would you try perform a healing miracle if you really believe that those people should just accept their fate and die?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/17/2009 @ 09:12am

  225. antisocialist-How do you know that you had a heart attack and a broken knee without getting checked out by a doctor?Most people who think they are having a heart attack are actually having an acute anxiety attack.Was your kneecap protruding from your skin or did you just think it was broken?

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/17/2009 @ 09:22am

  226. Posted by antisocialist at 08/14/2009 @ 5:53pm

    what a cop out. You know the real reason, don't you Larry. You know that if systems are compared, dreaded evil "socialist" systems will be shown to be as, if not more, effective at controlling costs while providing good care for people. You might also know, but block it out, that those systems in evil socialist European countries provide good care while those countries have GDP's that are above most other nonsocialist countries.

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/17/2009 @ 09:54am

  227. "I said Mask that I don't impose my beliefs on others so I'm not sure why you are posing questions about others."----Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:08am

    Because it's always interesting how many innate contradictions pop up in it.

    And as I noted, you can't logically make your case UNLESS you are a "pure Christian Scientist" who opposes any and all medical treatments, pharmaceuticals, etc.

    Are you?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 10:19am

  228. A simple exercise for any that want to try it!

    Go to any thread on The Nation over say, the last week or so. Find any single instance of a left/liberal/progressive poster who has been able to defend any provision of HR3200, with any argument that speaks to the goal to be achieved, and how a provision of HR3200 accomplishes it.

    No one in the administration or the house has been able to do this either.

    My Congressman wrote a letter saying he supported HR3200. I wrote back and asked why, with the above challenge. I got the exact same form letter back. Anyone gat similar responses?

    Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 10:34am

  229. This controvesy over "death panels", or what was originally meant that led to the current right wing description of it, should'nt be this complicated. There are two possibilities: 1. THE RIGHT WINGERS ARE FULL OF CRAP,THERE WILL BE NO MANDATORY CHECKS ON OLDER PEOPLE WITH RECCOMENDATIONS OR SUGGESTIONS THAT THEY COST TOO MUCH NOW AND "NEED TO GO" DEPENDING ON THEIR HEALTH. I for one cannot believe liberals, or even the left would lower themselves to such a level of Mao-like civilization, if one could call it that.

    Or

    2. THE RIGHTIES ARE CORRECT AND THE LEFT REALLY IS PLANNING SUCH A THING, OR SIMILAR, in which case I will not adhere to the mandatory check ups, and should anyone "give me the word" I will tell him that if he wishes to reduce the national health burden than he can put a gun to his own head, as I still have some living to do.

    Simple. Not Complicated. Other things to think about.

    Posted by william.harry13 at 08/17/2009 @ 10:53am

  230. We don't need any conspiracy theories to understand that Obama is just Bush Light, Bush with a friendly face. Just study Obama's HISTORY and understand that the liberals are really no different from the conservatives when it comes to the hard issues. (Ralph Nader, who has done more for this country than any politician alive, has been telling us this for years). One such study is "Barack H. Obama: The Unauthorized Biography" (available from Amazon). I don't agree with the author's political economy analysis (there really is no substantive split in the international oligarchy that controls both Bush and Obama) but his display of historical facts in Obama's history is illuminating.

    Posted by perryfellwock at 08/17/2009 @ 11:05am

  231. Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 10:34am

    Doesn't that work BOTH ways, snt?

    Or do you think every right-wing opponent of THAT bill (there are others) has read every provision...or that every Republican opponent in Congress has?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 11:06am

  232. "I said Mask that I don't impose my beliefs on others so I'm not sure why you are posing questions about others."----Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:08am

    Because it's always interesting how many innate contradictions pop up in it.

    And as I noted, you can't logically make your case UNLESS you are a "pure Christian Scientist" who opposes any and all medical treatments, pharmaceuticals, etc.

    Are you?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 10:19am

    BS!!! I repeat BS!!!!

    I only referred to myself when I said that I do not believe in using doctors or the healthcare system. I have repeatedly said that others need to decide for themselves. That is consistent with libertarian belief.

    I am not a Christian Scientist. Many of their beliefs deny orthodox christian doctrine. You do not have to be a Christian Scientist to be opposed to medicine and healthcare. I have stated repeatedly that I was raised on natural or holistic health and it has remained the core of my health practices. And btw, my parents were an atheist and a backslidden Christian so it was not based upon religious beliefs.

    I have stated in the past that I do not use prescription drugs. I am opposed to them, but do not believe in imposing that belief on others. I always find it ironic that people defend prescription drugs whose advertising always centers around all of the adverse side effects that taking them can bring.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 12:22pm

  233. Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 10:34am

    Doesn't that work BOTH ways, snt?

    Or do you think every right-wing opponent of THAT bill (there are others) has read every provision...or that every Republican opponent in Congress has?

    Yes. No.

    Perhaps you can point me to a left/liberal/progressive site that does a section by section analysis of HR3200 and/or HR676. I have seen numerous sites that explain the problems with it, but none that show its strengths, efficiencies, protections, savings, or metrics. Maybe you would like to share YOUR analysis of these bills?

    Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 12:44pm

  234. I did suffer a broken knee about 3 years ago. I let prayer and time heal it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:06am

    So you didn't get a cast or a splint or an X-Ray?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:53pm

  235. "I only referred to myself when I said that I do not believe in using doctors or the healthcare system. I have repeatedly said that others need to decide for themselves. That is consistent with libertarian belief. "---Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 12:22pm

    Curious on THIS point, too, Larry? As a pastor, when you counsel or PREACH to people....you completely leave out your view on medicine ("In the event of cancer or other debilitating disease, I believe people should accept that life brings these things and either G-d heals or we leave this life")?

    You never mention it in your capacity as a minister?...ever?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 12:54pm

  236. Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 12:44pm

    So the opposition is just as guilty as the supporters....nobody knows what's in it, just that it's "good" or "socialism that wants to kill my Grandma"?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 12:55pm

  237. I always find it ironic that people defend prescription drugs whose advertising always centers around all of the adverse side effects that taking them can bring.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 12:22pm

    I always laugh about the effects. Like anxiety medication that causes anxiety as a side effect. Stuff is hilarious. Are you against only prescription or over the counter? Like Tylenol or Tums? Now I'm just curious.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:57pm

  238. Ccc-Of course,the side effects only rarely happen and even natural herbs can have nasty side effects if the person is allergic to them.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/17/2009 @ 1:14pm

  239. So the opposition is just as guilty as the supporters....nobody knows what's in it, just that it's "good" or "socialism that wants to kill my Grandma"?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 12:55pm

    You must have read HR3200 and HR676 by now. I know The Nation posters here would like to hear your opinion of these bills, being such a frequent poster. Your comments are always so balanced. Pick a section or two of particular interest to you, or one in which you might have some insight due to research, reading, or actual experience with the subject matter, and give us your thoughts. help steer this discussion into productive areas. Who knows, maybe KVH herself might find wisdom in your analysis.

    Posted by sntauri at 08/17/2009 @ 1:20pm

  240. I did suffer a broken knee about 3 years ago. I let prayer and time heal it.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 09:06am

    So you didn't get a cast or a splint or an X-Ray?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:53pm

    Are you against only prescription or over the counter? Like Tylenol or Tums? Now I'm just curious.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 12:57pm

    Nothing. It caused quite a bit of pain for about 6 months and then the pain just kept diminishing. Once the pain diminished, I did jogging in the pool to restore muscle tone and build up strength again in my knee.

    I used herbal treatments, heat and ice, and esential oils that all provide pain relief. I have used acuncture and it has sometimes worked.

    I do plead guilty to occasionally using aspirin or Ibuprofen when the bone chips in my neck (suffered from a broken neck in an industrial accident), aggravate against a nerve, but I try and stay away from them also.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:40pm

  241. Nothing. It caused quite a bit of pain for about 6 months and then the pain just kept diminishing. Once the pain diminished, I did jogging in the pool to restore muscle tone and build up strength again in my knee.

    I used herbal treatments, heat and ice, and esential oils that all provide pain relief. I have used acuncture and it has sometimes worked.

    I do plead guilty to occasionally using aspirin or Ibuprofen when the bone chips in my neck (suffered from a broken neck in an industrial accident), aggravate against a nerve, but I try and stay away from them also.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:40pm

    So you are obviously for modern medical knowledge just not treatment. The method of rehabilitation of you knee you used is because of modern medical knowledge. Same with you knowing how to treat your own heart attack is based on modern medical knowledge.

    Also do you believe that all doctors are heretics and essentially sinful and therefore going to hell because they are defying the will of God? Again I am just trying to understand.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 1:47pm

  242. Curious on THIS point, too, Larry? As a pastor, when you counsel or PREACH to people....you completely leave out your view on medicine ("In the event of cancer or other debilitating disease, I believe people should accept that life brings these things and either G-d heals or we leave this life")?

    You never mention it in your capacity as a minister?...ever?

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 12:54pm

    I think it was you who asked me about this on a related thread awhile back.

    I never tell people in counseling what my choice would be.

    One of the first things you do if you don't know the people closely, is to find out what their belief system encompasses.

    Secondly, you help them to deal with resolution(s) according to where they, not you are in their spiritual walk.

    Thirdly, if it involves a child, you need to make sure that you counsel them not to arbitrarily impose their own beliefs into an area that their child might not embrace at a later age when they are capable of those decisions.

    Finally, I am emphatic that whatever decisions they make MUST be entirely their own because of their own convictions and not because of me or anyone else.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:47pm

  243. <i>Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 10:19am </i>

    In fairness, I think Larry brings up an interesting point. I don't think anyone really argues that all medicine that can extend life in any capacity is good. Nor does it appear that Larry is against all forms of treatment whatsoever (just most). What I think he starts getting at is the necessity of line-drawing, and how challenging that line-drawing can be.

    I will say, however, that I disagree with him a great deal on where he draws the line.

    Question for Larry: have you heard the story of the man drowning in a flood who called to God for help? Another person came by to help, he said "no, God will save me." A person comes in a helicopter, he tells them "no, God will save me." He gets to heaven, says "what happened? Why didn't you save me?" God says "I sent two separate people to do it but you told them no."

    Why can medicine not be a means by which God works to heal people?

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/17/2009 @ 1:51pm

  244. CCC,

    Just a follow up to my previous. I recommend a great book that is a "bible" for natural health called the Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Doctor James F Balch (he is a fellow in the American College of Surgeons) and Certified Nutritionist Phyllis A. Balch.

    It is available at most book stores, discount chains, and health food stores

    http://tinyurl.com/r8qal7

    Also this site on pain relief.

    http://www.quick-pain-relief.com/

    I also use Tea Tree Oil for pain relief, anti-fungal, and anti-bacterial applications.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:55pm

  245. Just thought of a great surgical procedure for Rush Limbaugh I actually wouldn't mind paying for.

    When confronted with an evil person found guilty of whatever, The Mongols would sew up all the openings (ALL..the openings) so the bad spirit could not leave the body. Then the accussed was thrown into a river to drown. Considering the drivel that comes out of that man I'd consider that a worthwhile fate.

    Posted by william.harry13 at 08/17/2009 @ 2:03pm

  246. CCC,

    Just a follow up to my previous. I recommend a great book that is a "bible" for natural health called the Prescription for Nutritional Healing" by Doctor James F Balch (he is a fellow in the American College of Surgeons) and Certified Nutritionist Phyllis A. Balch.

    It is available at most book stores, discount chains, and health food stores

    http://tinyurl.com/r8qal7

    Also this site on pain relief.

    http://www.quick-pain-relief.com/

    I also use Tea Tree Oil for pain relief, anti-fungal, and anti-bacterial applications.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:55pm

    I use much of those things. I also am not a fan of doctors. I tend to do everything myself unless it involves something serious. I haven't been to a doctor in a long time. I went when I was young and broke my leg because I wanted to make sure it was set properly. But mostly for illness I take care of myself.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 2:10pm

  247. But mostly for illness I take care of myself.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 2:10pm

    Glad to hear it. We have more opportunity in this information age to access information on self help than at any time in history. Everyone can access quality information on natural health and reduce their medical expenses.

    I have spent less than $600 in the past twenty years on formal healthcare involving doctors.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 2:21pm

  248. Everything Newt, Beck and Limbaugh were talking about was the government suggesting a living will INSTEAD OF MEDICAL TREATMENT.

    Of course, if you only want the liberal side of the news, keep getting your news from comedians and Air America loons.

    Posted by theMage at 08/14/2009 @ 6:44pm |

    As opposed to Rush The Entertainer, Newt the Ethically Challenged Congressman or Beck the...? What is he anyway?

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/17/2009 @ 2:21pm

  249. I have spent less than $600 in the past twenty years on formal healthcare involving doctors.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 2:21pm

    Would you say that puts you in "the mainstream"?

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/17/2009 @ 2:24pm

  250. It is not your more minor ailments that can be treated with natural products that are killing or bankrupting people.The subject is about your more serious medical issues.

    Posted by i'm nobody at 08/17/2009 @ 2:26pm

  251. I have spent less than $600 in the past twenty years on formal healthcare involving doctors.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 2:21pm

    So my last question is, do you believe doctors are heretical?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 2:41pm

  252. "I never tell people in counseling what my choice would be. "----Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:47pm

    Yet, "your choice" is based on your religious views....so that ONE part of your faith ("Man, God, medical treatment")...

    you offer no positive or negative comments on???

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 2:42pm

  253. "I never tell people in counseling what my choice would be. "----Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 1:47pm

    Yet, "your choice" is based on your religious views....so that ONE part of your faith ("Man, God, medical treatment")...

    you offer no positive or negative comments on???

    Posted by Mask at 08/17/2009 @ 2:42pm

    No, I state that I will be praying for them that they will see a positive outcome, that they experience the grace, comfort, and love of G-d as they go through the experience, and that whatever the outcome, G-d works all things together for good, for those who love Him, who are called by Him.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 3:06pm

  254. Would you say that puts you in "the mainstream"?

    Posted by crabwalk at 08/17/2009 @ 2:24pm

    I've never said that my choice of practicing natural health is in the so-called mainstream.

    But I have said and I continue to find it ironic that most of the people who practice natural health as I do are liberals.

    When I go to a conference or to a health food store, most of those there are liberals and there is an abundance of leftwing advocacy on bulletin boards.

    So I find it amusing that I'm often attacked here by liberals for being involved in a health lifestyle that is predominantly practiced by the left.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 3:19pm

  255. So my last question is, do you believe doctors are heretical?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 2:41pm

    No based upon two facts.

    1. As I've said, this is an individual decision that has nothing to do with soteriology (doctrines of salvation). The bible says to each has been given a measure of faith, so for me to criticize someone who's faith is not the same level as mine on this issue would be wrong on my part.

    2. many doctors aren't even Christians so how could they be heretics?

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 3:22pm

  256. 1. As I've said, this is an individual decision that has nothing to do with soteriology (doctrines of salvation). The bible says to each has been given a measure of faith, so for me to criticize someone who's faith is not the same level as mine on this issue would be wrong on my part.

    2. many doctors aren't even Christians so how could they be heretics?

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 3:22pm

    Well I mean I guess for the Christian ones. You say medicine is defying God's will. So does that mean you don't believe these people to be heretics?

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 3:40pm

  257. <i>Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 3:22pm </i>

    We seem to still agree that God cares about our lives on Earth (why do healing miracles or address current suffering if not?), and that he often uses human beings as vehicles through which to bring healing and reconciliation.

    The question I still ponder, then, is: why can't medicine be a means through which God brings healing? I agree with you completely that we tend to rely on doctors and medicine more than we should, but you seem to go farther than that. Why can't God use medicine to bring healing, just as he used a boat and a helicopter to offer safety to someone in danger?

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/17/2009 @ 4:46pm

  258. Posted by Thrawn at 08/17/2009 @ 4:46pm

    You have phrased my line of reasoning better than I did.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 4:53pm

  259. We seem to still agree that God cares about our lives on Earth (why do healing miracles or address current suffering if not?), and that he often uses human beings as vehicles through which to bring healing and reconciliation.

    The question I still ponder, then, is: why can't medicine be a means through which God brings healing? I agree with you completely that we tend to rely on doctors and medicine more than we should, but you seem to go farther than that. Why can't God use medicine to bring healing, just as he used a boat and a helicopter to offer safety to someone in danger?

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/17/2009 @ 4:46pm

    I've said that this is an individual decision. If someone chooses to believe that medicine and doctors are part of G-d's plan, I have no quarrel with them coming to that conclusion. This is my personal position and as I said, it has nothing to do with Soteriology (the doctrines of salvation). It is in that area of faith that is solely between each person and G-d.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 5:22pm

  260. I've said that this is an individual decision. If someone chooses to believe that medicine and doctors are part of G-d's plan, I have no quarrel with them coming to that conclusion. This is my personal position and as I said, it has nothing to do with Soteriology (the doctrines of salvation). It is in that area of faith that is solely between each person and G-d.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 5:22pm

    Gotcha. I think I understand where you are coming from.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 8:12pm

  261. Gotcha. I think I understand where you are coming from.

    Posted by Cccomfo1 at 08/17/2009 @ 8:12pm

    thx

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 8:42pm

  262. Public Option Called Essential Democratic Lawmakers Express Concern

    By Anne E. Kornblut and Perry Bacon Jr. Washington Post Staff Writers Tuesday, August 18, 2009

    Several leading Democrats voiced concern Monday about an apparent White House shift on health-care reform, objecting to signals from senior administration officials that they would abandon the idea of a government-run insurance plan if it lacked the backing to pass Congress.

    In the Senate, where negotiations are now focused, John D. Rockefeller IV (W.Va.) said that a public option, as the plan has become known, is "a must."

    Sen. Russell Feingold (Wis.) said that "without a public option, I don't see how we will bring real change to a system that has made good health care a privilege for those who can afford it."

    House Speaker Nancy Pelosi (Calif.) said that the plan will be included in whatever bill is voted on in the House. "There is strong support in the House for a public option," she said, though she did not demand that the administration express support for the idea.

    One Democrat predicted that without the provision, the bill could lose as many as 100 votes in the chamber.

    http://tinyurl.com/letge5

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/17/2009 @ 11:57pm

  263. Lost Boner On Pharmaceutical...:

    "House Republican Leader John Boehner launched an unusually harsh broadside at an estranged GOP ally Monday, ripping the drug industry for siding with President Obama's health care reform proposal.

    Republicans on Capitol Hill have been grumbling about the defection of the powerful lobby, which is running vague ads in support of reform. The letter is by leaps the most public stab at the group, which is run by a former top Republican congressman, Billy Tauzin.

    "Dear Billy," begins the diatribe. "Appeasement rarely works as a conflict resolution strategy" - an interesting choice of words given the media focus on Nazi symbols at raucous townhall gathering.

    Boehner goes on to compare the White House to a schoolyard bully in sympathizing with PhRMA's predicament. "When a bully asks for your lunch money, you may have no choice but to fork it over.

    But cutting a deal with the bully is a different story, particularly if the 'deal' means helping him steal others' money as the price of protecting your own."

    Posted by hsuBfools at 08/18/2009 @ 12:11am

  264. Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 8:42pm

    I'll agree with CCC. It's fine if that's your personal view. I just think it's odd that you have "personal doctrines" and "pastor doctrines" and you keep them separate.

    BTW, the materialist explanation for "divine healing" is purely... statistics.

    Ex- Say some form of terminal cancer has a 5% remission rate. Take 20 people with it; 1 will naturally survive with no "prayer for healing".

    The anecdotal "God cured my cancer...doctors baffled" "cures" are simply the fact that if 20 terminal patients pray for healing...and 19 die...and one survives, the survivor can claim "God healed me". The other 19 are of course very "quiet" and can make no such claim. So the only "existing" "evidence" is that "This person was cured of terminal cancer by God"...because they're the only one ALIVE to SAY that "God cured my terminal cancer".

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 07:59am

  265. <i>Posted by antisocialist at 08/17/2009 @ 5:22pm </i>

    I think I follow. So you're saying it's not so much a question of theological reasoning as it is of intuition. I think I follow, and as someone who puts great weight on intuitions, I can certainly respect that.

    <i>Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 07:59am </i>

    Ironically, this response is itself oversimplified. It's not simply a question of whether the cancer remits or not, it's whether it does so with no medically explicable reason whatsoever. Though I am extremely reluctant to make any kind of "God of the gaps" argument, I nonetheless think that such healings CAN be significant.

    Posted by Thrawn at 08/18/2009 @ 08:18am

  266. Posted by Thrawn at 08/18/2009 @ 08:18am

    Is "remission" not a "medically explicable reason"?

    If one person's natural immune system just "by the odds" is slightly stronger than 95% of other people's...and the cancer goes into remission...isn't that "medically explicable"?

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 09:21am

  267. I'll agree with CCC. It's fine if that's your personal view. I just think it's odd that you have "personal doctrines" and "pastor doctrines" and you keep them separate.

    BTW, the materialist explanation for "divine healing" is purely... statistics.

    Ex- Say some form of terminal cancer has a 5% remission rate. Take 20 people with it; 1 will naturally survive with no "prayer for healing".

    The anecdotal "God cured my cancer...doctors baffled" "cures" are simply the fact that if 20 terminal patients pray for healing...and 19 die...and one survives, the survivor can claim "God healed me". The other 19 are of course very "quiet" and can make no such claim. So the only "existing" "evidence" is that "This person was cured of terminal cancer by God"...because they're the only one ALIVE to SAY that "God cured my terminal cancer".

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 07:59am

    It's not odd at all. Most of the pastors I know and respect operate from the same position that I do. On issues not related to salvation, there is liberty for believers to hold varying views.

    And my personal positions of walking in faith are not doctrines. A doctrine is a teaching or instruction.

    On your cancer example, let me add an anecdotal testimony.

    My mother had cancer of the uterus 3 times before the age of 45. Each time my grandfather who was a pastor with a tremendous healing ministry, came to the hospital and prayed for her and the cancer was no longer present in tests run the following day. She has been cancer free since the last occurrence in late 1970.

    G-d heals who and when He wills to do so. I've often stated that all who trust in G-d are healed as death or the laying down of this body is a healing itself. the only question for believers is how and when.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 10:11am

  268. Larry,

    1. Again, that doesn't explain the fact that cancer remissions occur NATURALLY, without prayer...and how "God's randomness" and just plain ol' "randomness" coincide so nicely.

    2. Notice what you said-

    "Each time my grandfather who was a pastor with a tremendous healing ministry, came to the hospital and prayed for her and the cancer was no longer present in tests run the following day."

    then...

    "She has been cancer free since the last occurrence in late 1970. "---Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 10:11am

    Is your grandfather still praying for her? If not, then why didn't it return if HIS PRAYING was the causative agent for the remission of her previous cancers?????

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 10:42am

  269. Again, that doesn't explain the fact that cancer remissions occur NATURALLY, without prayer...and how "God's randomness" and just plain ol' "randomness" coincide so nicely.

    Is your grandfather still praying for her? If not, then why didn't it return if HIS PRAYING was the causative agent for the remission of her previous cancers?????

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 10:42am

    I never said that there are cancer remissions that occur naturally. However, I'm not aware of any that occur within a day in that manner. Are you?

    No, my grandfather has been deceased for 10 years. He died at the age of 94. My mother will be 82 this year. And again, healing is done in G-d's time and according to His purpose, not ours. Why did it take 3 times with my mother? Only G-d knows and my mother will find out when she goes home to the Lord.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 10:56am

  270. Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 10:56am

    1. If cancers can go into remission WITHOUT prayer....and "God cures as He wills" (aka "randomly")....then my point holds true. The only difference is the SURVIVORS telling us "God cured me"...while the VICTIMS ...cannot.

    2. How is it your mother was "cured by your grandfather's prayers"....but then STAYED in remission after he STOPPED???

    If supposedly "A" causes "B"...and then you remove "A" and "B" keeps occurring...then "A" had nothing to do with causation, did it..and it must be something else.

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 11:05am

  271. 2. How is it your mother was "cured by your grandfather's prayers"....but then STAYED in remission after he STOPPED???

    If supposedly "A" causes "B"...and then you remove "A" and "B" keeps occurring...then "A" had nothing to do with causation, did it..and it must be something else.

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 11:05am

    This seems a real lack of thinking on your part. healing doesn't come from repeated prayer. the prayers are in response to a specific moment. Sometimes, and in fact often, prayer is only needed once and the effects are permanent.

    But I repeat, all of it is according to G-d and His plans and purpose. Sometimes we see something re-occur because G-d is still trying to teach us something. Sometimes it's because we revert to the behaviors or thinking that caused the problem in the first place. Ultimately again, G-d's will, purposes and plans are ultimately what prevails. And His will is not always what we consider it to be. More often we think our will is His will, when we are supposed to be transformed so that His will is our will.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 11:59am

  272. "Sometimes, and in fact often, prayer is only needed once and the effects are permanent."---Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 11:59am

    You said your mother got cancer THREE times, yes?

    So why didn't your grandfather's prayers work the FIRST time...permanently?

    And again, why did "the last time" "seal the deal"...if the first two times couldn't????

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 12:52pm

  273. You said your mother got cancer THREE times, yes?

    So why didn't your grandfather's prayers work the FIRST time...permanently?

    And again, why did "the last time" "seal the deal"...if the first two times couldn't????

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 12:52pm

    Personally, I believe that G-d was trying to demonstrate repeatedly to my father who was an atheist for most of his life that G-d really exists and hears our prayers. My father did change, not immediately, but he first came to appreciate and respect both my grandfather and myself for serving G-d. Late in his life, he did give his life to G-d shortly before he died. So, I would say that G-d knew what He was doing.

    Thus, it's not that the first two times "couldn't".

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 1:10pm

  274. Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 1:10pm

    Ahhh....so it wasn't that your mom had a natural resistance to cancer and went into STATISTICALLY normal remission...

    nor was it your grandfather's prayers, except at the end...

    NOW, it's "God trying to show my dad the error of his ways!"???

    Again, it seems to work out pretty good for ol' God, doesnt it? Person cured, He gets credit. Person keeps getting sick and then cured, He gets credit. Person dies of cancer, "mysterious ways" and He's not to blame, in fact we should thank him.

    And you're a "take personal responsibility" conservative...right? With ONE LARGE exception, huh???

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 2:14pm

  275. Ahhh....so it wasn't that your mom had a natural resistance to cancer and went into STATISTICALLY normal remission...

    nor was it your grandfather's prayers, except at the end...

    NOW, it's "God trying to show my dad the error of his ways!"???

    Again, it seems to work out pretty good for ol' God, doesnt it? Person cured, He gets credit. Person keeps getting sick and then cured, He gets credit. Person dies of cancer, "mysterious ways" and He's not to blame, in fact we should thank him.

    And you're a "take personal responsibility" conservative...right? With ONE LARGE exception, huh???

    Posted by Mask at 08/18/2009 @ 2:14pm

    Never has a series of exchanges on this blog so thoroughly demonstrated that you don't even begin to have an understanding of G-d's interactions with mankind.

    Your last statement itself is so far off the mark that I admit to utter astonishment...

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 3:53pm

  276. 'I'll bet you don't know a SINGLE repub, do you?"

    Posted by twillie at 08/15/2009 @ 7:16pm

    "Lots and they're scared just like you, you little shadow of a person you.>" Posted by hsuBfools at 08/15/2009 @ 11:11pm

    You don't know any, do you? You live in some enclave surrounded by others of like mind (but not as abrasive) to you (probably the Bay Area, New York, or maybe Madison, Wisconsin). You conjure up some picture of an evil repub so you'll have a boogeyman to throw darts at. How sad. You should get out more, meet some of your enemies. It's harder to call someone a "blood-sucking tic", when you've actually seen them face-to-face.

    BTW, how's that Democrat war crimes prosecution of Bush going? Oops, it's not. Maybe they need to set Kucinich on it. You know, a little gnome like you.

    Posted by twillie at 08/18/2009 @ 4:59pm

  277. BTW, how's that Democrat war crimes prosecution of Bush going? Oops, it's not. Maybe they need to set Kucinich on it. You know, a little gnome like you.

    Posted by twillie at 08/18/2009 @ 4:59pm

    you have to remember twillie, this is the same person who 3 and 4 years ago was telling everyone here how the US deaths in Iraq would be far greater than the worst totals in the Vietnam war by now.

    Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 5:52pm

  278. Posted by antisocialist at 08/18/2009 @ 3:53pm

    Seemed to have stumped you Larry...you collapsed to "You just don't understand!" for your final answer.

    Not to be too egotistical, but I often see us as Spencer Tracey and Fredric March in that cross-examination scene in "Inherit the Wind"....and you ultimately resorting to "Matthew Harrison Brady's" line of...

    "I do not think about things, I do not think about!"

    and "Henry Drummond" replies..."Do you ever think about the things you DO think about?"

    Posted by Mask at 08/19/2009 @ 08:12am

  279. BTW, last comment on-topic....

    Last night (8/18/09) Keith Olbermann showed VIDEO of Limbaugh blatently lying about his use of the term "death panels"....within DAYS of him doing so.

    Posted by Mask at 08/19/2009 @ 10:00am

About the Authors

Archives

  1. February 2010

  2. January 2010

  3. December 2009

  4. November 2009

  5. October 2009

  6. September 2009

blog roll

Advertisement
Advertisement

Blogs

» The Beat

Facing Bipartisan Criticism, RNC's Steele Asks If Race Is Factor | "Why? Is it because Michael Steele is the chairman, or is it because a black man is chairman?” he wonders. Maybe he could compare notes with Obama.
John Nichols

» Editor's Cut

New Web Column at The Washington Post | Every Tuesday, I'll be featuring progressive thinking about politics and challenging the Right in my new web column for The Washington Post. Read my first one here.
Katrina vanden Heuvel
31 Comments

» The Notion

When Snow Melts: Vancouver’s Olympic Crackdown | Anger is growing in Vancouver in advance of the 2010 Winter Olympics in Vancouver. Like Olympic clockwork, here comes the media crackdown.
Dave Zirin
43 Comments

» The Dreyfuss Report

The Mind-Boggling Stupidity of Michael Rubin | How an AEI apparatchik's love affair for Ahmed Chalabi blinds him to Chalabi's pro-Iran treachery.
Robert Dreyfuss
27 Comments

» Act Now!

Demand Question Time | Join the call for the President and Congress to implement regular Question Time sessions.
Peter Rothberg
56 Comments

» And Another Thing

How to Counterbalance Focus on the Family on Superbowl Sunday | Give to help low income girls and women.
Katha Pollitt
54 Comments

» Altercation

Slacker Friday | James O'Keefe and Alter-reviews.
Eric Alterman